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The ISIS Social Media Attack

Another beheading claim and ISIS’s use of social media in its grab for power.

This still image from an undated video released by Islamic State militants on Tuesday, Aug. 19, 2014, purports to show journalist Steven Sotloff being held by the militant group. The Islamic State group has threatened to kill Sotloff if the United States doesn't stop its strikes against them in Iraq. Video released Tuesday, Sept. 02, 2014, purports to show Sotloff's murder by the same rebel group. (AP)

This still image from an undated video released by Islamic State militants on Tuesday, Aug. 19, 2014, purports to show journalist Steven Sotloff being held by the militant group. The Islamic State group has threatened to kill Sotloff if the United States doesn’t stop its strikes against them in Iraq. Video released Tuesday, Sept. 02, 2014, purports to show Sotloff’s murder by the same rebel group. (AP)

Another beheading of an American journalist by ISIS.  Steven Sotloff, 31.  The orange outfit.  The killer in black.  The desert.  The knife.  It’s hideous, stomach-turning.  Beyond infuriating.  And it’s on the web.  Social media.  This summer, ISIS has rampaged across the desert, taking turf, claiming a “caliphate,” slaughtering.  It has also rampaged across social media.  Using the platforms that lifted pro-democracy forces in Egypt’s Tahrir Square, this time to raise a reign of terror.  This hour On Point:  the ISIS onslaught, and the use of social media in its bloody grab for power.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Scott Shane, national security reporter for the New York Times. (@ScottShaneNYT)

Zeynep Tufekci, professor in the school of information and library science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Faculty associate at the Harvard Berkman Center for Internet and Society. (@zeynep)

Patrick Skinner, director of special projects for the Soufan Group. Former CIA Case Officer. (@SkinnerPm)

John Arquilla, professor and chair of defense analysis at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. Author of “Worst Enemy: The Reluctant Transformation of the American Military” and “Insurgents, Raiders and Bandits.”

From Tom’s Reading List

BBC News: Steven Sotloff: Islamic State ‘kills US hostage’ — “An Islamic State video has appeared which purports to show the beheading of Steven Sotloff, a US journalist being held hostage by the militants.Mr Sotloff, 31, disappeared in Syria in 2013. He appeared at the end of a video last month which showed fellow US journalist James Foley being killed.”

New York Times:  ISIS Displaying a Deft Command of Varied Media — “The extremists who have seized large parts of Syria and Iraq have riveted the world’s attention with their military prowess and unrestrained brutality. But Western intelligence services are also worried about their extraordinary command of seemingly less lethal weapons: state-of-the-art videos, ground images shot from drones and multilingual Twitter messages.”

The Daily Beast: ISIS is Using Social Media to Reach YOU, Its New Audience — “The migration from Internet chat forums to social media platforms came late to jihadists, but they’ve adapted skillfully. A strategy developed over years has evolved into a sophisticated campaign and now, at the center of the world’s attention, ISIS is using its skill to communicate directly to an American audience.”

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  • John Howard Wilhelm

    In considering foreign policy decisions, it surely makes sense to proceed with an attempt at a thoughtful approach and not respond hastily. That is a positive with regard to President Obama. But having said that, I don’t see how an intelligent person could not recognize that this president’s decisions in the Middle East have been too little and too late and that in terms of his conduct of foreign policy the man has shown himself to be totally unfit to be the president. That being the case, it really is up to Congress to provide leadership on this matter. It could do so by passing a declaration of war on ISIS and on Assad who earlier aided and abetted ISIS’s predecessor in killing American troops. In addition, members of Congress, especially Democrats if they have any genuine concern about the national interest, should make it clear that gross incompetence in the conduct of the war, and de facto we are at war, is an impeachable offense justifying removal from office.

    • nj_v2

      “a war on ISIS”

      As if there’s any reason to think it would be any more successful than the “war on terror.’

      • HonestDebate1

        It’s the same war and it is being waged against us whether we respond or not.

      • John Howard Wilhelm

        There may not be, but do we have any choice? It should be clear by now that a well supported part of the Islamic world is at war with us and that war did not start with George W. as the exchange the Ambassador in London from Tripoli had with Jefferson and Adams attests.

        • nj_v2

          “Well supported”?

          Even al Qaeda hates them. The only real support is generated by the history of U.S. intervention in the region.

          • John Howard Wilhelm

            But al Qaeda hates us as well as September 11, 2001 clearly shows. The problem as I tried to point out predates our involvement in the Middle East. And even when we do the right thing by the Arabs as we did in the case of the 1956 Suez invasion, Arab countries turned against us and towards our Soviet enemies. Doesn’t that tell you something?

          • JAH

            then why don’t we just GTFO if the Arabs are just going to fight each other, focus on our country, rebuild or economy and infrastructure and become a stronger nation. Let them figure out what they want to do with their own country. war only harbors resentment towards the US and creates more terrorists. There are better ways to prevent attacks at home then blowing up things ourselves. This isnt hollywood, the big scary terriosts arent going to take over the white house, we will be just fine if we just leave.

          • John Howard Wilhelm

            After WWI we just left Europe. Some twenty years later Europeans started fighting each other again. But we couldn’t just stay out, Hitler declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. We stayed out of Afghanistan after the Soviets left and that didn’t prevent a Taliban supporting a jihadist effort against us. We might be lucky with an isolationist approach, but given past experience and the nature of the Islamic threat, I would not like to trust
            to fate.

          • JAH

            yes, the jihadist threat only developed because we were not there, that makes no sense. It developed because we were there, we were supporting dictators like Saddam, the Saudi royal family. and of course the big one, helping to establish Jerusalem by kicking arabs out of their homes and taking their land, that is probably the original sin in all this, i mean really, we should have given a part of Germany to the jews, not Palestine. And Germany got out of control because of economics, we didn’t help rebuild their economy after WWI which created the environment for a Hitler to take power. The biggest reason for peace after WWII isn’t that we have bases still there, its the Marshall plan. same for japan.

          • jefe68

            Do you understand the difference between pan-Arab nationalism and Islamic extremism? Because the above comment seems to point to a lack of historical understanding of the region.

            Gamal Abdel Nasser, Gaddafi, and Arab Ba’ath Party are all coming out of nationalism. Islamist extremism is the antithesis of Arab nationalism.
            Understanding that difference seems like a good idea. ONe should also look up the Wahhabi movement.

        • JAH

          yes we do have a choice, leave. They are not at war with us, we are the ones at war with them, we are the ones in their region, they are at war with each other, we don’t need to get involved in a civil war. they only attack US troops because we are there. Did Europe intervene in the bloodiest American war, our own civil war? no, and we were better for it, we needed to get out of our system just like the middle east needs to now.

          • nj_v2

            Really, you’re going back to the Barbary Wars to rationalize modern U.S. intervention in the mid-East?

          • jefe68

            Amazing how some people think.
            Skipped right over the Ottoman Empire , WW1 and the aftermath with the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire.
            Not to mention the Balfour Declaration.

          • HonestDebate1

            The Christian haters love to use the crusades to claim Christianity is a current threat. So there’s that.

      • jefe68

        I hope people understand that we would need over 150,000 plus troops on the ground plus all the support for such a large endeavor. Do we as a nation have the will and the resources to go at this again? It’s all well and good for people to be sable rattling, I know when I heard of the horrific acts committed by ISSIS I too wanted something to happen. But when you dig into the logistics of this, it’s not so simple as some on this forum seem to think. Then the question is if we do go back into Iraq how long to we stay? Another decade or longer?

    • jomuir

      Leadership from Congress, that’s rich. Might as well fly to the moon using your arms.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    11 missing airliners? Weapons from Libya to Syria?

    What happened to the Colin Powell “Pottery Barn rule” in Libya? Obama broke it. Now he owns it.

    • dust truck

      Completely off topic, but I guess you’re paid by the post, so might as well just randomly trash Obama, eh?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Wrong and wrong.

  • HonestDebate1

    “Social media”. Really? I suppose if the President said it then it must be an issue.

    “A former Pentagon official confirms to Fox News that detailed and specific intelligence about the rise of ISIS was included in the PDB, or the President’s Daily Brief, for at least a year before the group took large swaths of territory beginning in June.

    The official, who asked not to be identified because the PDB is considered the most authoritative, classified intelligence community product providing the President with analysis of sensitive international events, said the data was strong, and “granular” in detail, adding a policy maker “…could not come away with any other impression: This is getting bad.”

    The official who has close knowledge of the process said the President, who reads the PDB unlike his predecessors who traditionally had the document briefed to them, was not known to come back to the intelligence community with further questions or “taskings.” Asked to describe the frequency, the former Pentagon official said “not generally.”

    http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/09/02/briefed-daily-isis-year-and-still-pres-obama-called-them-jv-and-still-he-has-no-strategy

    • nj_v2

      Fox so-called News, a source we can trust!

      • HonestDebate1

        Absolutely, is it embarrassing to resort to such lame rebuttal?

        This isn’t new news. We heard that he skipped 60% of his PDB’s years ago. He has admitted he learned things on news reports for the first time that he surely should have been briefed on. He was blindsided by ISIS, why?

        • nj_v2

          From Fox so-called News to “we heard.”

          The bar lowers.

          • HonestDebate1

            Are you really surprised by this? Get better news sources. Why was Obama blindsided by ISIS? I sure wasn’t and I’m an idiot.

          • keltcrusader

            they aren’t called FOX “we lie the best and the longest” News for nothing ya know ;)

    • Michiganjf

      “…the President, who reads the PDB unlike his predecessors who traditionally had the document briefed to them…”

      According to your post,

      Obama actually READS the PDB, instead of having it “briefed” to him, like, say, BUSH.

      Maybe THAT”S why Obama is making MORE INFORMED decisions than Republican pea-brains who want to act before they think… or before they know the facts!

      • HonestDebate1

        No, like say, all the other Presidents. The PDB’s are interactive, There should be give and take, questions asked and clarifications requested. NJ won’t answer so I’l ask you, why was Obama blindsided by ISIS?

        I don’t think he reads them, they should stick the PDBs in his golf bag.

        • Michiganjf

          Who says he was “blind-sided…” you?

          • HonestDebate1

            Everybody. He called them JV. Are you maintaining he understood the threat and let it happen anyway?

          • Michiganjf

            Who says two Americans (who voluntarily risked their lives) killed are a “threat” worthy of billions, or even trillions more dollars spent on military adventurism, AND worthy of perhaps thousands more American lives, AND fostering even MORE hatred against Americans?

            We would have been INFINITELY better off if we had doubled down on intelligence gathering and securing movement in and out of our country after 9/11, INSTEAD of spending trillions in Iraq and engaging in an invasion which resulted in tens of thousands of Americans killed or injured, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed, hundreds of thousands more injured.

            I’d say President Obama is taking EXACTLY THE CORRECT time to observe, analyze, and THOUGHTFULLY determine a course of action as action is required… THAT’S what we get with a President who ACTUALLY READS TO LEARN!

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re changing the subject and making stuff up.

            Obama should not be going around saying these guys are JV after he was told otherwise. He should not be telling America defeating them is unrealistic. He should show up for his briefings.

        • Ray in VT
          • HonestDebate1

            That’s hilarious! So take their word that Obama reads them all by himself instead of being briefed like the rest. Alrighty then.

            It’s much kinder to say he didn’t read them. It’s like the generosity I give him by saying he was passed out drunk the night of Benghazi. So he was warned in exquisite granular detail leaving no other conclusion ISIS was a real threat and then when out and called them JV?!

          • Ray in VT

            Gawd you’re dense. “instead of being briefed like the rest.” Except that that isn’t true. It must be nice to just ignore facts and to believe lies. It must make things so much easier. Your lame and disgusting attacks on those from the President to the nation’s poor are truly scraping at the bottom of the barrel of the American political dialogue.

          • HonestDebate1

            It certainly was not disproven by the fact check link. You are the one attacking him if you think he read the PDB’s and lied about the threat.

          • Ray in VT

            Hey, if that is what you want to believe, then go ahead and call the various sources contradicting your belief liars, because surely your belief just can’t be wrong.

            Oh, I am the one attacking him. That’s rich. Take for instance the right wing’s JV meme. It’s today “you didn’t build that”. A nice couple of words taken in such as way as to ignore the context of what he said. More dishonest debate.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — your continued tilting at this clueless windmill is appreciated.

          • Ray in VT

            Thanks. I know. It’s like talking to a brick wall. A brick wall that really hates the President and will repeat just about any right wing attack, no matter how strange or obviously flawed, made against him.

  • John Cedar

    I have never seen or heard a thing about ISIS from “social media,”
    only from MSM. And for once the MSN is doing good by stirring the poo pot. Thanks to the MSN advertising ISIS atrocities, our nation is once again in the mood to kill us some Muslims.

    Of course the MSN doesn’t care about the tens of thousands of Christians and womyn who were killed by radical Islamists. They care because these beheadings simply because they were of reporters.

  • nj_v2

    The calls from the neocon, war-mongering right and the other idiots screaming ever louder for the Ul.S. to do something about ISIS (translation, more military action of any and all types) couldn’t be more ludicrous and off target.

    After 9/11, and the U.S. spent a decade and a half, billions of dollars, killed millions of people, lost tends of thousands of service personnel in a war on imagined and inflated “terror.” Based on a couple of videos of a few dozen guys swinging on jungle-gym bars and shooting rifles, the U.S. invaded and occupied Afghanistan. Same with Iraq, since worst-than-Hitler Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons “in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat” or somewhere.

    Bin Laden succeeded in baiting the U.S. into Afghanistan, and couldn’t have been happier to see the U.S. do the same in Iraq.

    In what should have been dogged, targeted police work in cooperation with other countries, the U.S. essentially occupied huge sections of the Middle East, engaging in what amounted to terrorism of its own kind in the eyes of many in the region.

    So, all these years later, billions spent (and mostly squandered and lost to corruption and waste), millions killed, service personnel scarred for life and committing suicide at unprecedented rates, what have we got?

    Incompetent, puppet governments, factions still fighting with each other, and a new “global threat” which could show up in our neighborhood any minute and behead granny.

    Well, we have to do something!!

    So let’s take the bait one more time and do exactly what ISIS wants the U.S. to do; bomb, invade, occupy in yet more warring against the “Muslim threat.” You know, the exact same thing that created the problem! Brilliant!

    It was the recent history of U.S. action in the region that created ISIS, much as earlier action created the Taliban. So, obviously, the solution from the war mongers now is to do the same thing. Again.

    Why does anyone take the advocates for more war and occupation seriously?

  • James

    This must be a politically incorrect question (and a little off topic), but exactly how many innocent people have we killed since we started this bombing campaign started? And does anyone want to bet it’s more then two?
    May I remind everyone that no one lost their heads on facebook until WE started bombing THEM. After reports of 40,000 Christians stuck in the mountains. Which, low and behold, was initially reported by a Kurdish news outlet that had every incentive to try and draw a more powerful military into their territorially spat.

    • HonestDebate1

      Don’t dare blame America for these brutal acts. The implication that we had it coming is disgusting.

      • John Cedar

        A librul dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once…

        • John_in_Amherst

          trust you are signing up to go fight, right Mr. tough guy?

          • J__o__h__n

            Courageously thinking that he is annoying liberals on the NPR site is close enough.

          • jefe68

            And I bet he’s doing in a pair of stars and stripes briefs…

          • John Cedar

            The fact that I am tougher then every last one of you limp wristed libruls, has nothing to do with you allowing fear to rule your every thought and action in life, while I do not.

      • John_in_Amherst

        but it is interesting that before the last guy was killed, he was waterboarded. now where do you suppose the Jihadis got that idea?

        • HonestDebate1

          Who cares about the nasal rinse? These guys were decapitated.

          • John_in_Amherst

            true. and I make no excuses and acknowledge the cruelty. However, we labeled waterboarding as torture this time (when it is done to our own). So would you have us beheading people as retribution? Is dying by having one’s throat slit on youtube worse than being blown to pieces by a drone in front of your family? Death is all the same for the dead. It is the shock value of what is done that matters to terrorists and the families of the dead, and by extension to the public at large. Our principles, resolve and fortitude must exceed our foe’s or we will lose.

          • HonestDebate1

            Well, thank you for at least taking this subject seriously.

            Water boarding was debated and vetted by lawyers. It was determined not to be torture. I don’t know who labeled it as torture here but Obama has labeled it so since day 1.

            “So would you have us beheading people as retribution?”

            I have said many times this isn’t about something as small and petty as revenge. The nasal rinse is not in the same moral universe as beheading. There is no slippery slope connecting the two.

          • John_in_Amherst

            “nasal rinse” as a phrase for repeatedly almost drowning someone belies you are NOT taking this seriously. The lawyers that “vetted” this procedure were dung beetles doing Cheney’s bidding.
            when the US fails to live up to its principles and succumbs to using the tactics of our enemies, we have lost our way, despite what Jack Bauer would do on FOX.

          • HonestDebate1

            Drowning causes death, you can do it only once. I disagree about the vetting, these guys ooh their job very seriously in an extremely perilous time.

            Look John, I understand exactly the reaction to my purposeful wording. I get the same thing when I say the so-called “great recession” should have been a blip. I do not like conventional wisdom when it is assumed. It is not me who started this use of words for an emotional reaction. That would be those calling it torture. It’s been repeated so often that it is never questioned: waterboarding=torture. It’s like revenue=tax hikes. I say nasal rinse in an effort to shake people to their senses and make them question how something that leaves no scars, doesn’t hurt and is performed on our soldiers for training can be called torture. I never ever get an answer. I won’t get one here. I won’t get an explanation of how there is a moral equivalence to beheading.

            So I will stick with nasal rinse, secure in the certain knowledge it is far more accurate a description of water boarding than is “torture”.

          • John_in_Amherst

            a cattle prod to the gonads could be rebranded as “phallic stimulation” or some such thing, and it wouldn’t leave a mark, so it’s not torture, right? wanna make a list of non-scarring ways to torture? and as long as you can come up with a cutesy name for whatever, it isn’t torture, right?
            you are in a hole and you might be able keep digging to get out, but it is a LONG way to China

          • HonestDebate1

            I think it would leave a mark and it would certainly hurt like hell. I’d spill my guts in a heartbeat. Seriously, isn’t pain a component of torture?

            I don’t know about the world where such things are done for sexual pleasure but I do know people do some nutty things (pun intended). Heck, I sometimes walk around the house with women’s underwear on my head but they called it torture at Abu Graib. Go figure. When Hussein ran the joint there was a wood-chipper in the basement for prisoners. The lucky ones went in head first.

          • TFRX

            “Nasal rinse”?

            You’ve hit a new low. That’s quite a feat for you.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — this is the “gazillionth” time that Sir Nobler Than Thou (self-proclaimed) has used the term.

          • TFRX

            I didn’t realize as such.

            It’s an insult to me.

            Not because I (or any family member) has been waterboarded, but I consider it an insult to anyone with allergies who uses nasal rinse for fast, fast relief.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — that’s the least insulting aspect of this execrable usage.

          • HonestDebate1

            Okay that was funny so I apologize.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’d just like to know when I ever said I was nobler ethan anyone.

          • nj_v2

            It clear there’s no bottom threshold for DisHonestMisDebatorGreggg.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ve used it for years. Journalist volunteer to be nasal rinsed just for the story.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Water boarding is torture.

            Torture is wrong.

            How can you downplay it and still claim to be intellectually honest?

          • HonestDebate1

            It doesn’t even hurt! It leaves no scars! We did it to only 3 and one even thanked us.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Really? Is that why they used it in the Inquisition? And why it is banned by the Geneva Convention? What did the US say when Japan water boarded captured US military personnel?

            If drowning doesn’t hurt or leave scars, then you don’t really die? Starvation doesn’t cause pain, and it doesn’t leave scars – so it must be humane treatment!

          • HonestDebate1

            It wasn’t. No one was beaten and submerged under water or anything similar to what happened in the inquisition. And I’ll also preemptively add we didn’t execute Japanese for water-boarding if that’s your talking point. The Geneva Convention can be interpreted to say hurting someone’s feelings is torture.

            Drowning means death. No one was drowned. No one was almost drowned (almost killed) over and over.

            I certainly hope we don’t treat these animals humanely but that a completely different subject. Nice change-up.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            So, now you’re an historical expert? Uh huh. Okay.

            You apparently have tried and convicted the people in Guantanamo in absentia? Are you calling them animals to dehumanize them, so you can justify your hatred?

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m not an expert but I’ve studied this a bit. Where am I wrong? What do you dispute?

            You are hard to keep up with considering your conflations. Gitmo and water boarding are two separate issues. No one was water boarded at Gitmo. I have to assume those at Gitmo are guilty. They are unlawful combatants captured on the battlefield. It’s not a matter of jurist prudence. And they are treated with the utmost of humanity. insultingly so.

            I consider beheading jihadist who are willing to strap bombs on their children as animals. Sue me.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          The orange clothing is not a coincidence, either.

          We need to close Guantanamo. Now.

          • HonestDebate1

            Are you serious? The jihadist don’t care about Gitmo, it’s paradise for them. Gitmo isn’t mentioned by the terrorists as a motivation for jihad. Gitmo didn’t cause the beheadings and the notion we can appease the enemy by surrendering and playing nice is a deadly proposition.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            So, why did they dress the men they murdered in orange, then?

            Guantanamo is a big recruiting tool for terrorists around the world. Guantanamo is an abomination. We have corrupted our principles, and we have betrayed our Constitution.

          • HonestDebate1

            Gitmo is way way way down on the list as a recruiting tool. We know this, we monitor the social media. It’s necessary of Obama would have closed it. It does not violate our Constitution in any way, shape or form.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Thanks for sharing your expertise. Not.

          • HonestDebate1

            If you have evidence it is a major recruiting tool or that it is unconstitutional, please present it.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Look at the photo above.

            Holding a person indefinitely without charge is a basic as it gets. If you can’t bring your little mind to admit this, then you need to do some long, hard thinking …

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll stipulate up front I’m an idiot. Give the gratuitous insults a rest.

            Are you referring to Constitutionality? If so, these are unlawful combatants captured on the battlefield. They are not American citizens. They are not afforded any of the protections of our Constitution and if you want to get specific they are not covered by the Geneva Convention either.

            Gitmo does not violate our Constitution in any way, shape or form.

    • nj_v2

      In addition to those deaths, we have the legacy of Abu Ghraib, with images of tortured prisoners, the shooting of Iraqi civilians and journalists from helicopters, photos of service people bringing home body parts as trophies, U.S. soldiers urinating on dead Taliban in Afghanistan, the filmed killing of bin Laden, the continuing, drone strikes on civilians.

      No barbarism there, nosiree. It’s just the U.S. fighting against “evil” and “terrorism” and stuff.

      But ISIS? Savages. Vicious. Awful. We have to do something! (i.e. exactly what they want us to do).

  • HonestDebate1

    “We will not forget, and our reach is long and justice will be served.” -President Obama

    That’s not what I need to hear. It’s reactionary, it’s about nothing but revenge. I want to hear strategy backed with substance. I am sick of America quaking in it’s boots, that’s the role of the enemy.

    • TFRX

      Really, that’s some weak shit you got.

      Does someone else here want to do the easy work of finding Shrub’s words saying pretty much the same stuff after 9/11? I’ve got something more important in another browser window.

      • keltcrusader

        you mean like :bin laden – who??? I don’t worry to much about him.

        • HonestDebate1

          Exactly, Bin Laden is dead and it didn’t change squat.

          • keltcrusader

            Bin Laden got us to do exactly what he wanted and as a result it bankrupted the country.

      • HonestDebate1

        Always Bush. Bush laid out a plan. What’s Obama’s plan?

        • keltcrusader

          Bush had no plan ever other than do what Dick says.

          • HonestDebate1

            Like pardon Scooter? That’s just silly.

        • John_in_Amherst

          Let’s see, Bush first started laying plans to go into Iraq and even the score w/ Sadam before 9/11. Then he and his neocon buddies ignored the warnings about a terrorist threat that could have curtailed the 9/11 attacks, so that we could start a “just war” (i.e.: go after OBL and the Taliban in Afghanistan) then he got distracted by all the false intel from Iraq and decided to short change the hunt for OBL so that he could kick Iraq’s butt, which, conveniently enough, served to enrich Cheney’s former companies Haliburton and KB&R. Then, when the going got tough, instead of re-instituting the draft, he instituted stop-loss recall deployments (which exacerbated combat stress and PTSD for our troops), and “outsourced” much of the mission to Blackwater and assorted other contracted thugs and killers, who went in and alienated the general population, while the US propped up some tin-horn despots who siphoned off reconstruction aid and left the country to fall apart and become a lawless failed state which we again have to go bail out, lest it become another haven for terrorists. Great F-ing plan, eh?.

          So Obama decides to keep his cards close to his chest and deliberate and not broadcast his plans to the enemies, and that is worse than Bush’s serial blunders??

          • HonestDebate1

            Yadda yadda. First it was Clinton not Bush who made regime change in Iraq US policy.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457jp8VGhEE

            I’m not going to get into a pissin’ match with you over your delusional framing but I will point out you admit Bush had a plan, you just don’t like it… or what you claim it to be.

            What’s Obama’s strategy?

          • John_in_Amherst

            I’m glad Obama’s strategy has yet to be posted to FB. And exactly what in my “delusional framing” is at odds with the historical record?

          • HonestDebate1

            What is the strategy?

            Your framing starts off on the wrong foot by ignoring the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. You say Bush ignored warnings with his buddies. That’s silly. You frame the solution to be that of revenge instead of acknowledging the fact that there was a larger picture that included Iraq.

            Again, I see no need to get into a pissin’ match over past history. There are more important things to deal with. Say what you will but the war was won, all that had to be done is to keep the peace and Obama failed.

          • John_in_Amherst

            the war was won? and I’m delusional?

          • HonestDebate1

            Yes and yes.

          • Ray in VT

            Probably a good thing that you don’t want to get in a pissing match over history, considering how incredibly wrong you are about it regarding Iraq and just about every other historical topic to which turn your attention.

          • Ray in VT

            And where in that act was it called for for the United States to take military action in Iraq?

          • HonestDebate1

            Watch Clinton’s speech after he signed it. He made no bones about military action. Then he bombed an aspirin factory the night before Monica testified.

            But what does that have to do with my point? It’s silly to use the ol’ “Bush already had his mind made up to oust Hussein, revenge for daddy … or something. Was Bush supposed to ignore Clinton’s law?

          • Ray in VT

            Hey, Mr. Pinball, way to head off into whatever lame worldview you project onto others. “Clinton’s law” didn’t require Bush to spin some yarn of lies about Saddam and Al Qaeda and to invade Iraq. That’s all on him. It is known that in 1999 he saw military action as a way to become a great President.

            Please show where Clinton was rattling the sabre for invading Iraq in 1999. It’s funny how Clinton gets trashed for supposedly letting Bin Laden get away, although there’s no evidence of a deal for him with Sudan, and also criticized for taking actions against Al Qaeda. Supposedly that was just cover to get out from under the GOP witch hunt.

          • HonestDebate1

            My point had nothing to do with combat smarty pants. And who trashed Clinton? He was right. If you want to say he lied, fine.

        • Ray in VT

          And what was that plan? Sell the American public some bogus line about Saddam working with Al Qaeda, turn away from Afghanistan and get bogged down in Iraq for a decade at the cost of thousands of American dead and a trillion plus dollars? Heckuva job, Brownie.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yea, that was it.

          • Ray in VT

            So that was his plan? Mission accomplished, then.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yea, he said so on the Abraham Lincoln, right?

          • Ray in VT

            Oh come on. We wrapped it up. We were greeted as liberators, and the streets were lined with flowers. Why, just a couple of years later the insurgency was in its last days, which lasted for months and months, and which was only really papered over once the Sunni tribesmen got sick of Al Qaeda and got free stuff from us, so it wasn’t really solved, just put on hold for a while.

          • HonestDebate1

            Are you seriously contending we were not greeted as liberators? Really?

          • Ray in VT

            How long did that last? Really worked out well until a good number of them figured out how we were dealing with some of their people and who we were putting in power. The total power vacuum that we created that allowed terrorism to flourish in the country as stuff like the pictures of torture and humiliation coming out of Abu Ghraib and Blackwater shootings of civilians also didn’t help.

          • HonestDebate1

            War is hell, geopolitics is hard. We were greeted as liberators. I can see why you want to talk about Bush with the total collapse of Obama’s presidency in full view.

          • Ray in VT

            Indeed, that would be a good thing to do if the last bit, surely the wet dream of Obama-hating TEAbaggers everywhere, was happening, but the sky is not falling.

            Indeed the things that you mentioned are hard, but that wasn’t the administration’s line in 2002/2003. It was supposed to be a cake walk. In and out in no time. Few casualties, little cost. How did that all work out? The story of the Iraq occupation was one of mismanagement, ignorance, and incompetence. Although we totally found all of those WMDs and uncovered Saddam’s vast “operational” ties to Al Qaeda.

          • HonestDebate1

            Nobody said that.

            I can see why you want to talk about Bush with the total collapse of Obama’s presidency in full view.

          • Ray in VT

            Keep on living that fantasy while wetting your bed over the coming Caliphate.

          • Ray in VT

            How’s that double dip recession that you claimed that “common sense” showed that we were sinking into working out?

          • HonestDebate1

            Such a supple wrist. The economy is kicking ass I suppose.

            And quit lying about what I said. It’s become your staple.

          • Ray in VT

            Hey, you’re the one who’s pinballing to Clinton to try to blame him for Dubya’s lying us into invading Iraq. How is that double dip recession going? Bad, right? Like a gazillion jobs lost. GDP plummeting. Oh, wait.

            “No, Obama owns this likely double dip.” – (dis)Honestdebate1

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/05/30/foreign-policy-pope-francis-edward-snowden

            “GDP was revised down 3 points. The economy is in big trouble and a double dip recession seems likely. There is no mention of it here.” – (dis)Honestdebate1

            “What is your evidence of a GDP decline in the second quarter?” – me

            “Common sense. A three point swing in this horrible atmosphere is a tall order.” – (dis)Honestdebate1

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/07/03/iraq-hobby-lobby-israel-palestine

            “Are you saying Obama has nothing to do with the double dip recession?” – (dis)Honestdebate1

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/06/13/iraq-mosul-isis-eric-cantor-tea-party

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude, I stand by it. It’s common sense that it was likely. Was it not? Obama certainly owns the economy. Everything I wrote was true even in your cherry-picked 0out of context quotes. I am not going through 800+ comments to find them and your links are useless. I’m not going o tell you again fir the umpteenth time how to link to a comment.

            And why can’t you stay focussed? What the hell does your comment have to do with the topic? Are you deaf, dumb and blind?

          • Ray in VT

            Oh, so now you stand by your comments that you made that you claimed that I was lying about. APOLOGIZE IMMEDIATELY!!

            “Cherry picked out of context quotes”? Hahahaha. Good one. Oh, you can’t be bothered to look through your comments to see what you said? Lame.

            Common sense? Hardly, unless your definition of common sense differs entirely from how it is commonly understood.

            “And why can’t you stay focussed? What the hell does your comment have to do with the topic? Are you deaf, dumb and blind?” It’s not about me. Why are TEAbaggers so nasty that they have to resort to personal attacks, pinballing away from their moronic comments when they aren’t convenient.

          • HonestDebate1

            Implying that I said we were headed full steam into a double dip recession is a lie. If you don’t think it was common sense to consider the possibility then you are just dumb. Put the comments up, lets look at the context if you dare but start a new thread.

            Here’s my original comment which you cannot seem to address:

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/09/03/isis-twitter-social-media-steven-sotloff#comment-1571784035

            You went straight to Bush. Then came a boatload of just outrageously simple-minded talking points and I was stupid enough to follow you. It culminated in my shattering your argument by writing: “Bush said it would be hard, really hard. He said it would take many Presidential terms long after he was gone. He was right.”

            No answer, off to the economy. Now you want to talk about what I said 3 months ago and you can’t even link it. And you want me to follow you there? Where next? Focus. You sure play a mean pinball.

          • Ray in VT

            More insults. It’s still not about me. Oh yes, despite all of the positive economic indicators and reports of so many of the negative factors from the first quarter having turned around by March, if one wasn’t soiling themselves over the coming double dip recession while cheering it because it gives one an avenue to attack the President, then one is “dumb”.

            Hey, you’re the guy reaching back to Clinton to try to lay blame on him for Bush’s mistakes, because, after all, Bush was just upholding “Clinton’s law”. I guess that referring to a previous President and heading off somewhere into the topic wilderness is only okay when you want to do it.

            You often seem to have a very high opinion of the content of your arguments, despite the actual merits, I mean you even think that you can tell the dictionary what words mean, so your declarations of victory mean very little to me.

          • HonestDebate1

            I can see why you want to talk about Bush,Clinton and me with the total collapse of Obama’s presidency in full view.

          • Ray in VT

            “Nobody said that.” Where were you in the lead up to the war?

          • HonestDebate1

            Bush said it would be hard, really hard. He said it would take many Presidential terms long after he was gone. He was right.

            I can see why you want to talk about Bush with the total collapse of Obama’s presidency in full view.

    • John_in_Amherst

      threatening to bring perps to justice, no matter how long it takes or where we have to do it is reactionary??

      • HonestDebate1

        Yes, obviously. It’s after the fact. Don’t get me wrong, he needed to say it but there is a lot more that needs to be said.

        • John_in_Amherst

          blather on….

      • jefe68

        President Obama could have said something completely opposite to the what HD’s is gripping about and he would have had the same comment.
        It’s all about dissing Obama 24/7.

        • HonestDebate1

          Please don’t tell me what I think.

          “No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.” FDR

          “Let me state as plainly as I can, there was absolutely no justification, either legal or moral, for what the Soviets did…This crime against humanity must never be forgotten” – the Gipper

          “It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated… The only way to defeat terrorism as a threat to our way of life is to stop it, eliminate it and destroy it where it grows.” -GWB

          “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -JFK

  • Ed75

    We decided that instead of ISIS, ISIL, or IS, we’ll just call them ‘EVIL’ and leave it at that. My bet is that England can’t stand the danger of having bombers return to their country, and seeing us not acting, they will act.

  • Ed75

    The BBC said that the best way to understand ISIS is to see it as a gang, and young people need to belong to a group, group-think. Islamic theology is in error, but it’s wild stuff to read.

  • Ed75

    Finally, we don’t speak much about the dead person … we have to pray for his soul. They are working on possibly declaring Mr. Foley a martyr.

    • J__o__h__n

      More religion will certainly help this mess.

      • malkneil

        Exactly. “God” is what got him killed.

      • Ed75

        In a general sense religion can be called a view of absolute truth. The only option to following a religion is to take the position that absolute truth doesn’t exist or is inaccessible. But that’s a horrible position, and isn’t true. One might even say that some people join groups like ISIS in desperate response to a world without absolute truth, which the West offers. The trouble is heresy – claims to truth that are not correct.

        • J__o__h__n

          Of course absolute truth doesn’t exist. And if it does, there is very little evidence that it is known to religion.

          • Ed75

            To paraphrase Chesterton (whom you would enjoy reading), how do you know so much about truth to know that there is no absolute truth? (And isn’t it an absolute statement about truth to say that there is no absolute truth?) It would be a sad place if man, who is made for truth and certainty, were to find it unavailable. Religion, all legitimate religion, claims to be based on absolute truth, ontological truth. Truth is a person …

  • Jasoturner

    Because social media permits publication of unfiltered images that would never make it through traditional media outlets, it can be amazingly powerful as a propaganda vector for lessor ideological actors willing to upload the outrageous and shocking.

    Perhaps even more nefarious, social media shrinks the world and creates a distorted perspective of risk. The odds of an American falling victim to a terrorist act is vanishingly small, but with their ubiquitous imagery of brutality, ISIS has managed to seemingly freak out the most powerful nation on Earth.

    I am not sure, in the current climate of uncertainty and concern (which began on 9/11/01), whether there is a politician capable of “talking us down” from our fear of these far-flung thugs who fancy themselves the future rulers of a caliphate. But I am not sure that clamping down on the imagery available on social media is either possible or desirable, either. It seems to me that until we secure a truer sense of risk, measured response to agents like ISIS will be hard to come by. We tend to over-react, and our over-reactions tend to be violent, imprecise and culturally oblivious.

    In this context, while he is floundering somewhat, I think Obama has proceeded with some wisdom. We have helped build a powder keg in the middle east – no need to rush in willy nilly and set the fuse alight out of a desperate sense that we must *do something*. Trying to contain, while continuing to take stock of, a fluid situation seems prudent. At least in the immediate term. As for social media, it is unfortunately a powerful weapon that guys like ISIS will continue to exploit – probably with growing cunning over time.

    • AC

      i am one of those that have succumbed to feeling the fear of this group, in my defense, it is because religion is in their ‘ideology’ and religion has always been my biggest fear for this exact reason….i’m not really afraid of them per se, i also feel a sort of rage that their actions are somehow justified in their minds. how can any of them, the mothers in their group, just watch as helpless children are beheaded? i don’t understand this kind of brainwashing, how is it possible – why is no one, even within their own party, not having at least 10 seconds of rational thought? what on earth does any of it have to do with ‘god’? i hate it.
      seriously. even in their very own private thoughts, how can they avoid their behavior? how do they go to bed and not feel anything?

      • nj_v2

        Do you pay taxes to the U.S. government?

        Politicians, acting in yours and my name invaded and occupied Iraq under false pretense.

        Soldiers with U.S. flag emblems on their uniforms and using material paid for with yours and my money, acting in our name, tortured prisoners.

        Bombs paid for by your and my tax money kill innocent people as we speak.

        We develop our own rationalizations for this, up to and including the invocation of “God.”

        But how fine are the differences?

        • AC

          to be honest, when i travel, esp. in africa, more people complain to me about the english and the french. maybe it’s because i live here?
          i don’t disagree completely with what you’re saying, but this group gives no quarter, they are too brutal for me, there isn’t any argument i’ve heard that can poss cause sympathy from me….they are too separate to me.
          two wrongs don’t make a right…..

      • Jasoturner

        I think “brainwashing” is the operative term. Religion may be the fig leaf, but this is actually indoctrination into a cult of nihilism. Sometimes people just seem to become mentally broken when they cannot accept their own reality…

  • John_in_Amherst

    Fear is a much more powerful motivator than reason, and terrorists now have the Web, a virtual nuke in their arsenal to goad the US into hysterical missteps. The bitter irony of the situation: while the US military forces reporters into “imbedded” status to cover war, there by limiting and scripting what the public sees and can use to make democratic decisions about what the US should do, terrorists can instantly deliver brutal images of isolated incidents to great effect to sway public opinion. And the terrorists are abbetted by media, especially FOX, as they sow fear in the short attention spans of the US average citizens. We end up with “sanitized” images of the US at war (our guys doing no wrong), together with wildly hyperbolic images of fanatics, high on their version of god, threatening atrocities. This is a tough one to unwind….

    • brettearle

      There is, however, a potential limit on their destructive capacity.

      Yes, they’ve wreaked unmentionable and mentionable havoc.

      But unlike what I first thought, they might be contained or squelched, sooner than we think.

      My suggestion, in no way, is meant to minimize the death and destruction, already.

      As mentioned in the Forum, several times, ISIS is working at cross purposes with many other factions; and their real potential to penetrate borders may be less facile than I first had thought.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    I had never heard of ISIS / ISIL, until Obama became President.

    • dust truck

      Funny how a lot of things can happen in 6 years. That’s 2,191 days for events to happen somewhere in the world.

      • Obamunism 2.0

        Is that the lame excuse Obama is going to give for the $7 trillion he’s added to the national debt?
        The national debt was only $10 trillion when he came into office. The national debt is now over $17 trillion!
        Thanks Obama.

        • dust truck

          First off, your numbers are completely false. Second off the national debt has been growing steadily for DECADES. You’re just blaming the most recent president for this now?

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — riiiight.

      You’ll probably claim that you’ve never heard of Al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), too.

      • Obamunism 2.0

        Where have you been?
        The Obama Administration has been supporting ‘rebels’ with known links to al-Qaeda in Iraq for years.

        • J__o__h__n

          That, food stamps, and NPR funding are responsible for the debt.

          • Obamunism 2.0

            No, Obama’s failed economic policies are responsible for the $7 trillion that he’s added to the national debt.

        • hennorama

          Obamunism 2.0 — thank you for your non-responsive response.

          Drone on with your BS elsewhere, dronebot.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    You go into world events with the Golfer Dude you voted for. Twice.

    • nj_v2

      Zzzzzzzzzzz…

  • Samuel Walworth

    We should NOT and cannot leave Iraq anytime soon, however the answer may not be military response.

    Just amazing that we did NOT learn from our last lesson of Soviet invasion of Russia, when we did help the Afghans and LEFT, a vacuum that was dearly exploited by the terrorists (and their sympathizers called Taliban Govt) and ran amok with incidents like IC814 hijacking and Sep 11 2011.

    Never leave Iraq completely, their politics is mainly to blame the IS situation, however we are largely accountable, as Mr Maliki has had no intention to have balance of powers, so to speak in an Iraq, which was not been overseen by US :-(

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    Obama’s goal to turn the US into a Euroweenie country has consequences.

    Obama nominated Mohamed Elibiary as DHS Advisor.

    Get used to the new world. Obama Doctrine: If I don’t do anything, how can you blame me? FORE!

    • AC

      big brother doctrine: “whatever and however, it’s Obama’s fault…..”

      • http://www.google.com Big Brother

        NPR doctrine: “If the story doesn’t support liberal agenda or Obama as infallible, it didn’t happen.”

        No reports of Ralph Weems being beaten by 20 brutal black thugs because he was white.

        • AC

          how is anything about ISIS liberal or otherwise? what is wrong with you? can’t you ever make a comment that is relevant?

          • malkneil

            At least we know Big Brother is a faithful NPR listener to provide so much commentary.

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    Obama needs our support. He continued to fund NPR during the Federal Government Shutdown.

  • Barry Kort

    Politics is an increasingly ghastly topic. I reckon it’s always been ghastly, but most politicians usually try to conceal their true ghastliness.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Excuse-making is our most important product.
    –Your USA government {not in action}

  • nj_v2

    http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25941-how-the-us-made-isis-their-videos-and-ours-their-caliphate-and-ours

    How the US Made ISIS: Their Videos and Ours, Their “Caliphate” and Ours

    Tuesday, 02 September 2014 12:57By Tom Engelhardt, TomDispatch | News Analysis

    [[ … Talk about a feel-good feel-bad situation for the leadership of a superpower that’s seen better days! Such threatening evil calls for only one thing, of course: for the United States to step in. It calls for the Obama administration to dispatch thebombers and drones in a slowly expanding air war in Iraq and, sooner or later, possibly Syria. It falls on Washington’s shoulders to organize a new “coalition of the willing” from among various backers and opponents of the Assad regime in Syria, from among those who have armed and funded the extremist rebels in that country, from the ethnic/religious factions in the former Iraq, and from various NATO countries. It calls for Washington to transform Iraq’s leadership (a process no longer termed “regime change”) and elevate a new man capable of reuniting the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds, now at each other’s throats, into one nation capable of turning back the extremist tide. If not American “boots on the ground,” it calls for proxy ones of various sorts that the U.S. military will naturally have a hand in training, arming, funding, and advising. Facing such evil, what other options could there be?

    If all of this sounds strangely familiar, it should. Minus a couple of invasions, the steps being considered or already in effect to deal with “the threat of ISIS” are a reasonable summary of the last 13 years of what was once called the Global War on Terror and now has no name at all. New as ISIS may be, a little history is in order, since that group is, at least in part, America’s legacy in the Middle East.…]]

    (excerpt)

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    This beheading stuff is trying to instigate us into responding irrationally and in a non-intelligent way to the entire middle east. If this really is the same MF’er who did the last video, we have a target. I’d hope our government uses it’s technology to track the videos creation. back tracing whereever it was uploaded from. sent from. whatever clues we can use to find that specific group of slaughters. rather than blast the bee’s nest with bombs and make them all mad, let’s go for precision and go for specific targets low key like ninjas. prevent civilians causalities. they are unacceptable when it comes to our response.

    • hennorama

      Sam Winston — you mean use the NSA and its assets?

      No doubt the chicken hawks and others will be apoplectic.

      • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

        Nah, I mean use the hackers on 4chan who are more intelligent than those people. the dark web breh. the people who just leaked all those celebrity nudes aka “The Fappening”. or like Wikileaks or like Snowden. these people were smarter than the people who implemented the systems. no one person would be doing it either, it’d be the entire community. whether or not they’re interested in doing it is another question.

        • dweebus

          Sounds like you are intimating Anonymous should become involved. Keep in mind, you can’t “use the hackers”. The Collective will take action, or not, as they see fit, in spite of the desires of the administration. One note, the Anons are notoriously anti-state. “We” cannot dictate the response. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKJuE7iu_g0

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The buck stops here.
    –Harry S. Truman*

    * And every other US president, except for Barack H. Obama {according to his devotees, acolytes, apologists, and blame shifters}

    • Jeff

      Obama has a plaque on his desk that says “The buck stops at Bush.” He smiles every time he looks at it.

      • brettearle

        Your comment is a thin, vapid, artificial, and superficial mini-screed that views a situation of enormous complexity, from an appallingly simplistic viewpoint.

        • Jeff

          That’s exactly what I think when Obama continually blames Bush 6 years into his own presidency.

          • brettearle

            Do you think Bush should ask for an apology?

          • Jeff

            I’d rather see Obama take responsibility.

          • Obamunism 2.0

            HA HA HA! ‘Obama take responsibility’.

            Thanks for the laugh.

          • brettearle

            Maybe, when Officer Wilson has his eyesight restored, he can request an apology for Bush.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            The effects of Bush’s actions do not go away as soon as he leaves office.

          • Jeff

            The effect of Obama’s actions don’t go away while he is still in office.

          • hennorama

            Neil Blanchard — indeed. The world will be dealing with the fallout for decades to come. Nations and peoples who are invaded and occupied, with millions displaced and hundreds of thousands killed as a result, do not soon forget who gave the orders:

            “This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.”

            - Pres. Bush II, Sept. 16, 2001

          • HonestDebate1

            That is so insulting to the liberated Iraqi’s. It’s unbelievably insensitive and vacuous.

          • brettearle

            This is crazy.

            We aren’t even close to counting the number of civilians and innocents who have been killed by the US invasion and its aftermath.

            The Crusades aren’t over yet.

            God, do you believe this?

            Gregg Smith uses the most disturbing word he can think of….

            INSULTING?

          • HonestDebate1

            I can tell when you and the schoolmarm get flummoxed because you feel compelled to use my name. So silly… and rude (I guess that’s the goal, just be as rude as possible).

            I think it is insulting as hell to imply compassionate Muslims and Iraq’s horribly oppressed citizens endorse the murderous jihad and are angry at us for fighting it. It is insulting as hell to imply they were fine with the rape rooms, torture and public executions. The only ones who fit Hennorama’s description are the radical Islamist dedicated to our demise.

          • brettearle

            Is your panegyric aimed at the wives, the husbands, the mothers, and the fathers whose loved ones were taken down under the guise of “collateral damage”, after Shock & Awe started it all?

            Maybe Timothy McVeigh should have led the 82nd Airborne….

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m an idiot, I don’t know what panegyric means but I do know we liberated 50 million people from brutal oppression in Iraq and Afghanistan. So sorry that bothers you.

          • hennorama

            brettearle — [Debates?NotHe], as usual, is ignorant. Iraqi public opinion polling has consistently indicated that the vast majority of those surveyed wanted the US occupation forces to get out ASAP, all the way back to the beginning of the invasion and occupation.

            The Fool consistently repeats his mantra of “Don’t Tell Me What I Think,” then ignores the expressed thoughts and opinions of the Iraqi people, as though he knows what they think, and must tell the world.

            The hilarity is never-ending with Sir Nober Than Thou (self-proclaimed).

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    The ISIS beheadings will cause NPR to continue to not be critical of radical Islam because they don’t want to beheaded.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Word salad.

      • brettearle

        You forgot to add, in your sentence, “that is rancid.”

      • jefe68

        It’s a good example of a juvenile mind at work.

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    Get ready for excuses to be made for Barry the Geek’s lack of action.

    • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

      I get it, you’re still trying to paint the carter malaise on B-rock. interesting. and petty. a journalist was beheaded, it’s time for nuance not hyperbole.

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    if there are people who can secretly upload those videos and information, there are people who can secretly find out who those people are. ask the cyber community.

  • Michiganjf

    Why are the videos released by ISIS such calculated and refined productions?

    Because ISIS knows that many reactionary people in America will push to bankrupt our country, both economically and morally, through war, divisive politics, and the devastating economic effects of xenophobia (not the least of which is political gridlock).

    Eleven guys with boxcutters almost bankrupt our country and pushed us into wars which turned half the world against us… now conservatives, who want to play politics or are stupidly reactionary, want to push us into spending billions (trillions?) more, dividing our country more, and turning more against the U.S. with cries of Imperialism (whether true or not).

    Sounds like ISIS knows just how stupid the Right is in our country, and they’re playing these dupes quite well!

    Obama is taking just the right stance, costing America as little as possible, reacting when required, and waiting to build world opinion into a force which sides with morality… this is the TERRORISTS WORST FEAR!

    WE NOW HAVE ALLIES coming from the most curious quarters, thanks to the policy Obama has pursued regarding ISIS!!!

    The Iraqi Kurds, Iran, and elements throughout the entire Middle East and the world!

    • http://www.google.com Big Brother

      It is really designed to keep the press from being critical of Radical Islam.

      I don’t understand why these press guys don’t spit in the face of their executioner.

      that’s what I would do.

      • hennorama

        Self-censored.

      • TFRX

        There’s no serious answer to your non-serious question. Watch your copy of Red Dawn again.

        • hennorama

          TFRX — I have to restrain my fingers with this entity, as indicated below.

          • TFRX

            Ah, restraint. Beloved restraint.

            I would suggest that restraint in the face of violent, cruel death threats is overrated.

            The cool, quiet forbearance evidenced by “not begging for mercy” or “spitting in the executioner’s face”, or by coming up with a quip that James Bond / John McLane would be proud of, is way overrated to me.

            I think it’s the result of seeing too many heroes face death at the movies.

            Who can plan now, in the comfort of their own home, or cafe, what they’d do should they be in that man’s position? I’d love to think I could be my funniest then, to apply ridicule to evil. But I wouldn’t bet on it. And I don’t want whatever I do to be the judge of my character, my entire life lived.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — TYFY thoughtful R.

            That anyone might proclaim

            “…spit in the face of their executioner.

            that’s what I would do.”

            is what necessitated restraint on my part, i.e., rather than go overboard with my comment, and making some rather pointed suggestions, I bit my figurative tongue.

            Both you and [John_in_Amherst] have expressed much of what I would have said, sans the expletives and pointed suggestions. I was this close to clicking [Post as hennorama] before deciding on restraint.

            Thanks again.

      • John_in_Amherst

        how ’bout if we check back with you after you’ve been held by jihadi thugs for a couple years under god-only-knows-what conditions and see how you can hock a lugey in the face of your executioner

    • brettearle

      I don’t think this is their main intention. I think your argument is a cogent one–but I think you’re giving ISIS more credit, from this angle, than they may deserve.

      Basically, what they’re doing, primarily, I think, is more primitive:

      In a ugly way, it is kind of like your domestic cat, being let outdoors, until he/she bags a prey of a dead mouse or dead bird–and then leaves the catch on the doormat of your backporch, for the sake of personal pride and glory….

      • Michiganjf

        I appreciate your reply, but many analysts in the media have pointed out just how refined the conventions used by the terrorists in the videos are, and what they are trying to accomplish.

        This is, in fact, the very essence of terrorism… to instill terror which has consequences far beyond the actual “petty” action which was taken by the terrorists.

        • brettearle

          Oh, I agree it’s for terror and to show invincible strength.

          But not to the extent that they’re thinking it out, like OBL did.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I will keep sending troops (off balance) to the region until my golf swing improves. Or the beheadings stop. {same difference}
    –Barack H. Obama

    * Off balance: without approval of the US electorate or its Congress. Without being accounted for in annual appropriations approved by Congress.

    • malkneil

      I’m wondering how much golf is an acceptable amount of golf? I’m fine with people not being happy with the job Obama is doing, but are we really going to blame it on his ‘excessive’ golf playing?

      • TFRX

        The acceptable amount of recreation? It’s asymmetric, depending on whether the Commander in Chief is a Democrat or a Republican.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Another day, another golf comment …

      • brettearle

        My normal response to him is,

        “Get outta town.”

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    these journalists should have spit in the face of their executioners

    • malkneil

      Maybe they did, but the terrorists probably would have left that footage on the cutting room floor.

    • nj_v2

      Oooo, hey BIg Guy, I love it when you talk tough. Gets me all hot.

  • AC

    good lord. i’m pretty sure i’m not really human, it’s so shameful…..

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The would-be caliphate countered by the would-be presidency and his would-be world leader buddies. Partying it up in Estonia this week.

  • Ekaterina Scammura

    Praising a group of barbarians for broadcasting their snuff films over a cheap and widely accessible communications network does no one with a shred of humanity any good whatsoever. Cut it out! Since the essence of being social involves communities coming together, not tearing apart, there is nothing whatsoever “social” about what these thugs are doing. The more accurate word is anti-social. Talk about what they do in those terms!

    • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

      god forbid the US citizens see the death they paid for. the problem with our media is we do not show REAL war nearly enough. we do not show the results of our actions.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Taken down by whom? The International Internet Content Police?

    Who are we now? The Saudi religious truncheon wackers?

  • creaker

    It’s a difficult situation to get involved in when all sides have factions committing atrocities. Not that the US does not have a history of doing this over and over (ISIL was helped by our policies in Syria), but we can’t hide behind the charade that we’re for the “good guys”.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Just like Washington, D.C. is in a different universe. One far, far away. From our galaxy.

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    Do your callers even understand what war really is? Your children have to see it on tv? The children over there have to see it in real life every single day.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Washington, D.C. thinks foreign policy is only and all about the optics. No reality need intrude. Hoober Doober

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    We can filter out the ugliness of life.
    –Tom and his guests today

  • hennorama

    Terror, savagery, and brutality are tactics. ISIL is using these tactics to send messages both internally and externally, in a sort of “you’re with us or against us” fashion. (Sound familiar?)

    Internally, they help keep their recruits and followers in line, as those who may want to desert understand what fate may await them if they do, and are caught. Externally, they serve to instill fear into opposing military forces, who may retreat in fear rather than stand and fight.

    They also serve to stir up emotional responses from ISIL’s declared enemies, to provoke them into striking out of anger, and to join the fight on the ground of ISIL’s choosing.

    Don’t fall for the terrorists’ tactics.

    There are plenty of well-armed and capable entities “in the neighborhood” who can and should be expected to take action. ISIL has gotten the attention of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, and other neighbors, the Iraq central government, and Kurds, which have formed a sort of quiet and tacit anti-ISIL alliance. Haider al-Abadi, Iraq’s new PM is evidence of this alliance, in that all of these entities concurred in both the removal of al-Maliki, and the naming of al-Abadi.

    ISIL is, practically speaking, already geographically contained. They aren’t going into Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Kurdistan, southern Iraq, or western Syria. They might try Lebanon, but they have some rather intense internal security forces. And Jordan is well-armed and capable, can depend on US support, and probably that of Israel, too.

    What’s next is unclear, but one thing’s for certain — there’s relatively little that the US alone can do.

    The real threat is ISIL’s appeal to so many disaffected people around the world, who see in them a force that is successful, Arab, and that has humiliated the hated US. All of those factors aid their recruiting both regionally and worldwide, as we have already seen, and some of those recruits may one day go back to Europe, North Africa, the US, and elsewhere, to foment terrorist activities.

    • brettearle

      Will they not possibly receive assistance from the ISI?

      • hennorama

        brettearle — TYFYR.

        If Pakistan’s ISI wants to increase their influence in Afghanistan, one way would be for them to host some ISIL followers in the tribal regions near the border.

        It is worth noting that this is far from the first time that militants have captured some territory and installed their own version of Islam therein.

        The examples of Afghanistan, Pakistani tribal areas, Somalia, Mali, etc. are well-known, and said examples give one significant pause.

        Good point, sir.

        • brettearle

          Are you of the opinion that the US is adopting a measured response because of all the other actors you mention–who may be currently coalescing an individual and collective strategy?

          [Not that there isn't a great deal that we don't know about, about US tactics behind the scenes.]

          • hennorama

            brettearle — TYFYR.

            Such a “Retinue Of the Reluctant” needs time to form, and would of course prefer that the US take action instead.

            If this were simply a military issue, a couple of US brigades could wipe ISIL away.

            But any US ground action will serve only to forment more anti-US sentiment among people who have had their fill of US occupation. The locals and their neighbors must take the tough and grinding “up close and personal” actions, with US air, logistic, intelligence support and supplies.

            The US has killed more than enough Muslims already.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Randy gets it even if Tom Ashbrook, et al, do not.

  • AC

    i havent seen any of the videos nor do i wish to

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    free airtime? they just beheaded two journalists.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    We will not watch the foreign devils destroy our cities and villages. It’s unpatriotic and destructive. And just plain awful.
    –Emperor Hirohito

    * Until the surrender-signing ceremony on USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay.

  • Dab200

    How about not watching, not showing any parts of their propaganda in the media and not devoting an hour of airtime to talking about them and advertise their actions!!!

    • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

      what about those journalists they killed who died trying to get us the truth? they certainly deserve the coverage. It’s a general rule of war not to kill journalists.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Know thy enemy.
    –Some Greek guy

    Don’t know nothin’ ’bout that enemy. Don’t see it; don’t listen to it; don’t touch it. Yack!
    –Tom Ashbrook, “enlightened” radio talk show host

    • malkneil

      Why do you listen to the program (and comment so profusely) if you detest the quality of the program? Just to pollute the message board?

      • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

        I love it. Otherwise I’d never be able to interact with folks like you. Plus, I’m a Vietnam era Vet so I’m not moving to another country just because women pout and children cry easily. HD

        • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

          the first thing you lack when it comes to interacting with us is common respect. really you’re just sort of an annoying little kid type character who takes up space with their posts HLB. rethink your strategy, it’d be interesting to hear some actual intelligent thought in one of your posts.

          • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

            Some act like Tom: don’t read it or watch it. Who are you, the thought police? Try Saudi Arabia: they don’t have a free press there. HD

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            no thought police here. speak freely, for the love of god speak freely. just keep in mind this isn’t breitbart.com and we are generally well rounded, college graduates. you do not have to talk to us like idiots or with partisan rhetoric. just talk about your ideas. I don’t care to hear what rush limbaugh or Laura Ingraham said in their last rant of hate.

          • malkneil

            I do enjoy the discourse on these boards but it seems they’re starting to resemble an episode of Hoarders with some of the vapid commentary posted by some people. Sometimes I think it would be best if every ID was held to 1 comment per topic to force people to concentrate on saying something meaningful — or post one dumb quote if they so choose.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            check this out from breitbart, I posted there for a few weeks recording censorship when ever I spoke. this is proof they promote racism, imo. it was the 6th time I was censored in that one topic. it happened any time I made a rational point. people should keep in mind this is the type of system we are dealing with when it comes to propaganda: http://i.imgur.com/d43f6UQ.jpg

          • J__o__h__n

            One comment wouldn’t be much of a discussion.

          • malkneil

            Ha..you got me. But you get the idea. Often times there’s still no discussion with endless comments allowed.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            not down with the one comment idea. down with maybe putting a 2minute-5minute bumper on new posts or something for users who are spamming. really do not want anybody silenced. because without a doubt a case will come along where somebody does not deserve it.

          • HonestDebate1

            “you’re tarding out hard now breh.”

            You really should not give lectures on common respect or decency.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            why is that? I’ve been more than respectful to everybody on this forum who isn’t an obvious troll trying to make people froth. please do elaborate tho, I could use a good laugh.

          • HonestDebate1

            Hey, it’s up to you. I don’t care but I didn’t see HLB get personal or disrespectful and I’m not necessarily a fan. Use whatever language you want to but you come off like a troll trying to make people froth.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, how dare he infringe upon your schtick?

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            I’m not really sure how I come off as a troll trying to make anybody froth. my concerns are legitimate.

          • HonestDebate1

            I probably should not have butted in. Say what you want but I stand by my opinion.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            ah, you’re the pretentious type. gotchya. enjoy that.

          • HonestDebate1

            Pretentious? No, I’m an idiot and everybody, including me, knows it. Ask’m.

            I made an observation and commented. You asked and I clarified. My tack is to not get personal, to me that is civility. That doesn’t mean I don’t like passionately brutal debate. I just don’t think your comment was consistent with your admonition to HLB. Again, it’s your gig, do what you gotta do but you may get called on it. That’s my view. There’s really not much more to it.

  • http://www.google.com Big Brother

    When are they going to tell us where to watch the beheading videos?

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      When Obama gets back from his conference with the other Deep Thinkers of the World. HD

      • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

        your view is so myopic.

        • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

          It’s ’cause I don’t have your Obama-wide world view. HD

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            now you’re making assumptions, speculating, and trying to attack me verbally. what makes you think a society ruled by money is controlled by obama? think outside the box for once and maybe you’ll start to see reality.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            How many times have you mentioned Obama? What does President Obama have to do with this topic?

        • brettearle

          You’re giving him much too much credit.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            meh, it’s not my place yet to judge the dude. haven’t been here long enough. I will say even the most douchiest of bags can become an interesting voice. all they have to do is educate themselves first.

          • brettearle

            That’s well said and I respect your compassion and humility.

            But you will soon see that we are dealing with a hopeless case.

            [I will expect no credit for my warning.]

          • malkneil

            He’s a random quote generator. At least trolls have a purpose.

          • brettearle

            Point taken.

          • TFRX

            Your use of the word “yet” suggests the old joke:

            “Why do so many people take an instant dislike to him?”

            “Because it saves time.”

          • brettearle

            Some people hide their Buffoonery better.

          • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

            for sure. I can be argumentative but he’s obviously a troll. maybe he’s upset about something reasonable but doesn’t have the vocabulary to say it yet? haha who knows. try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt since personal human loses context once you type it a lot of the time haha really nice forum, dig this place a lot. good conversation overall.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      They already have – on the Internet and social media.

      • dust truck

        I already found it through some Reddit subforums. It’s not hard.

  • John_Hamilton

    We can expect more of this kind of thing in the future. Three unsolvable dynamics will become increasingly severe: overpopulation, climate change, and infinite-growth industrial economies reaching their physical growth limits. More and more people will migrate around the planet to places where they will be marginalized and unwelcome, and more and more people will feel aggrieved.

    The easiest appeal to aggrieved people is religious fanaticism. Here in the “U.S.” we have aggrieved religious fanatics who are relatively well-off, who are committing acts of terrorism at abortion clinics and other targets. Imagine what it would be like here if masses of not-so-well-off people find a religious cause to channel their aggrievedness.

    Social media just grease the wheels. They are peripheral to the essences of overpopulation, failing infinite-growth and climate change. These are dynamics we are unwilling to face, so we occupy our time chattering about superficialities.

    • dweebus

      Ouch! Cut to the chase, didn’t you? What happens to ISIS, much less traditional states in the ME, when they hit the wall of finite resources?

      “Of all the passions that motivate people, deprivation is the most powerful. Mix it with ignorance and hunger, and you get spontaneous combustion. In our modern world, it is the root of terrorism, civil war, and holocaust. Deprive a human being of what he thinks is rightfully his- be it food, safety, or even a concept as abstract as justice- and he will respond passionately, violently, and most often, irrationally.” -W. Michael and Kathleen O’Neal Gear (People of the Moon)

      • noshel

        If any one here is Ignorant is Us Americans. We some how believe that what work for us , must work foe every body. and this is out road to destruction!.

  • TFRX

    “Don’t give (Isis) the power of calling them geniuses. That’s giving them too much power”?

    Hey, tell that to Fox News.

    They’re pretty fascinated with the optics, the media “politics”, the macho manlyness, the “winning” on whatever front (war, terrorism, media) of troublemakers of many stripes, simply because Obama is in the White House.

    That makes a real conversation, assessment of the situation, and proportionate response, all the more difficult.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The sky is falling!
    –Henny Penny at WBUR FM

  • Stephen706

    Interesting discussion and see both sides… yes they are getting more exposure, press and coverage while yes they are inflaming the Western Societies with their actions and brazen acts… perhaps we (US, UK, etc) could flip this even better with putting a “Django Unchained” bounty on any and all ISIS/ISIL members, sympathizers and supporters–aka, wanted Dead or Alive…

    • Stephen706

      Dead preferable… paperwork is simpler

    • noshel

      You are so silly!
      We the US and UK and others slaughtered 2 Million Iraqis, women and children innocent people, but we did not get to see all that brazen act, Remember the word, “Imbedded”
      Yes that is called sanitizing the barbaric act our soldiers did in Iraqis homes against their people, now two Americans get their head chopped off, we feel like the world is crashing down on Us!. May be you should say to the president and those Republic hawks , that we are no better than ISIS, the only difference is that we use airplane and they use knife!.

      • Stephen706

        We did not slaughter. Yes it was and is a combat zone. Yes there was and will be collateral. 2M is a bit high. And when we did stupid (Abu gharib) we got hammered. People went to jail.

        • noshel

          This is our problem, and this is why we continue to have problem with Putin, and those Islamists.
          Because we seem to justified our wickedness, but when its some one else does the same they are terrorist and barbarians. and war mongers.
          What did Saddam Hussein did to America?. nothing, so you cannot talk about combat, this was a big lie Powell told to the world to be able to justified our crimes against humanity, and our war crimes!.
          Lets see what excuse we are going to use to go into Syria with out their authorization?.
          I don’t support what those people are doing, but we are not better than them so we should not be the ones to be branding them!.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Social media is destroying our country. And we will end it.
    –Dr. J. Goebbels

    • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

      you’re tarding out hard now breh.

      • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

        “All will pay who disagree with me.”
        –Monster, Steppenwolf

        • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

          stop using steppenwolf to threaten me.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Like JFK’s tiptoe into Vietnam, Obama is flirting with the thin end of the wedge.

  • http://stephensonstrategies.com W. David Stephenson

    Leave it to John Arquilla to always come up with an insightful, comprehensive analysis of a terribly complex issue.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I’d rather switch than fight.
    –Iraq Army {a wholly owned subsidiary of the US Defense Department}

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Loppings: the middle east equivalent of Game of Thrones.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    No actual American was ordered to the Iraq/Syria/Kurdistan region to have his head, literally handed to him. Unlike soldiers who serve in uniform under arms, under orders, no retreat, no whining, just suck it up.

    Stop crying for those who imperil themselves unnecessarily. And then expect our military to save their bacon.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Lessons from social media: stop watching Mr. Ed if you don’t like talking horses.

  • Yep

    We should continue to be repulsed by these videos.

    Then we should let it all flourish in the social media. Whack-a-mole censorship is a waste of energy better spent unearthing the goldmine of data it is generating. Keep up the morbid curiosity. But keep up the disgust.

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    Terrance McKenna suggested the agricultural movement is what destroyed our species. The OVER supply of food. excess. and now the way we farm cows for example is far more destructive to our environment, the release of methane, the treatment conditions of the animals themselves, etc.

    if we used real, natural soil and let them graze the ground would ABSORB that methane and carbon. fertile soil is one of the easiest ways to reabsorb those pollutants. but we don’t. Monsanto’d

    • John_Hamilton

      I met Terence McKenna once, in his later years. he was one of the most captivating people I have ever encountered, totally sincere, focused, and without animosity or distance. He was talking about deep psychedelic experiences, had a group of people spellbound. I happened in toward the end, not part of the class, but he was totally welcoming. It was 1993. He died in 2000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna

    • HonestDebate1

      There are a lot of cattle farmers in my area and all of them I know do exactly that. None of them feed grain, just grass. I don’t dispute your claims but it’s not universal. Either way, I’m not too concerned with their farts.

      • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

        universal in what sense? it’s not applicable to every region, I’ll give that for sure. but for our country specifically, the United States could benefit greatly by returning to the family farmer style. All these factory farms treat the animals horrible, pump them full of hormones and antibiotics, cram them in, pile them in in a lot of cases and stress them out the entire time they’re alive.

        I’m sure you know since you are familiar with the cattle farmers around your area, it’s common knowledge that when an animal like a cow becomes stressed or aggravated they release adrenaline and other fight or flight brain chemicals which taints the meat essentially. it makes it tough. even changes the taste; creates a slightly more metallic flavor. and even those Alaskan boys on discovery channel with tell you that stuff.

        I think we all agree there is no one solution to limiting emissions and we’re going to continue to fly planes around constantly and dump this stuff directly into our air and our aqua furs I think the least we can do as a nation is end this animal cruelty of factory farming and let cattle crazy the fields like they’re suppose to. their turds make the soil extremely rich and makes it absorb more carbon and methane. I believe methane is one the huger problems. we need to have a good long discussion about the long term effects of fracking and overall methane and other intoxicants/pollutants because in 30years or less. (That is the approximate maximum length of time concrete lasts before it breaks down completely.) Every single well as far as I’ve read is sealed with concrete. there are 100′s of thousands of wells just in the united states and people are already seeing effects on their local water supplies. you’ve seen the water on fire I’m sure.

        the point is that concrete breaks down on a 100thousand wells + all the bs lubricants and whatever the F’s they put down there too become our drinking water.

        we need to stay somewhat humble and not let our intelligence make us so prideful and vain. we need to refocus on LIFE. not money. LIFE. it should be a basic human right that all US citizens receive free water. it’s a necessity. we are 98precent water or whatever; it is us haha. so 1.) our society needs to make water accessible and free for all. 2.) education needs to stay public, there needs to be free public college for every single person whom wish attend. no more of this charter school fight for privatization stuff. and education/schools are the same as healthcare. there should be absolute no FOR profit hospitals. somebody saving your life should not cost you a single dime and that should be the last absolute last thing on their mind when somebody is in need of care. I believe the insurance company scam needs to end and those companies need to completely dissolve. there’s nothing they’re doing that benefits anybody but themselves, so we the citizens might as well do it ourselves. but we’d have to step up and our country wants to, they just don’t know or remember how to. inspiration is what’s needed. we need to see the murders on tv over and over. we need to see war footage over and over. we need to see police brutality over and over until we snap the F out of it. apathy was triggered in our populace. let us not be foolish about that fact. conspiracies aside we can absolutely say there is agendas and propaganda at work targeted directly at our emotions. directly at our Achilles heels.

        we need to stop putting capitalism on a pedestal and start looking at a form of government that works fluidly with our current culture of 2014 and beyond, not the culture before and thru the great depression, we’ve seen where that leads us. here, to 2014. we already have a mixed economy with tons of socialist things like the mail, the highways/road, the garbage pick every week, Public Schools, Public Parks, Libraries, and on and on and on and on and on and on. Those are all really reasonable things that are worth investment. and we decided it thru voting and ballot proposals and whatever.

        we need to step up to the plate and define this next century. it’s time to stop living in the times before we could fly airplanes or had tv.

        smack me.

        • HonestDebate1

          There are lots of family farmers. The poop alone will not enrich the soil to the degree necessary to support enough grass to keep a heard healthy over time. At the very least lime must be added. The poop adds mainly nitrogen but very little else. We use a manure spreader on the pastures for horses but cows just plop in random spot which kills the grass underneath. Eventually it will break down and actually fertilize the specific spot.

          I hear you regarding the hormones. chemical and so on. We got some boneless chicken breast past week that were gargantuan. Not normal at all. The thing is, there are lots of mouths to feed and I’m not so certain it could be accomplished without industrialized farming.

          And with due respect I find the rest of your vision frightening so I’ll leave it there.

  • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

    it’s because we allow the pharmaceutical industry into our foods. seed to store to plate + their pesticides, agent orange components, etc.

    • http://www.START-THE-MOVEMENT.now Sam Winston

      oh yeah, all these hormone and genetic things
      done to these animals to get them to grow weird or faster than they normally would. it’s disgusting and unnatural.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    American involvement in this mess is also just so problematic because nothing seems to bring out such two-f***d behavior in many Americans like Middle Eastern issues:

    And it’s both Republicans and Democrats!

    Diane Feinstein goes on ‘Meet The Press’ this week; criticizing President Obama’s ‘cautiousness’, and basically stating agreement with perpetual warhawk John Mcain (and his sidekick Lindsey Graham)!
    Talking about going to war – again – in this region!!!!!!!!

    Now, on an almost daily basis, I see Democratic congressman complaining even about the limited actions the President has taken as ‘slippery slope’ stuff; yet, NOT ONE Democrat is taking Feinstein to task about championing another Republican push towards war!

    Republicans are even worse!
    There is probably a good 40% of Americans, (mostly Republican), that want us dropping bombs on Muslims again – FOX NEWS(not News) fake tough talk; going into another military campaign; yet won’t simply & implicitly say so – such as with all of this “Obama needs to do something!” talk!

    What do they mean by “do something”?!!!!!!!!!!
    They are talking about going to war – again!!!!!!

    But, they don’t want to just say it, because of hypocrisy, It would increase the deficit & taxes!

    But, mainly, because of this same hypocrisy, these same Americans want to be able to ‘BACK OUT’ (and lie out) of any responsibility for their actions if things go bad – not taking responsibility – once again!!

    • J__o__h__n

      I can’t stand her. She rubber stamped every NSA abuse until she was the one being spied on and then she threw a fit.

      • HonestDebate1

        I’ve always had a soft spot for Di Fi. Oh she’s as partisan as they come and I disagree with her ideology big time but I do think she acts from an honest assessment rather than politics, most of the time.

    • noshel

      May be its still top secret that we did not win the war in Iraq, what we did was to pay off the very ISIS to not fight us, and let us Build our embassy there!. We create ISIS just like how we had created Al-Quida. This is what you get in proxy warfare, never know when your friend will become your enemy!.

  • homebuilding

    I didn’t hear ONE word about all the USA-made and USA-supplied weaponry that’s floating all around the world–

    a treasure trove for our potential enemies to use against us–and for misguided persons to abuse, kill, and dominate others.

    The discussion of social media is similar to discussing the paint color of the train locomotive headed straight at you !

  • pm05

    Why show the picture? Why give this monster any air time? This guy is not a “glorified” terrorist! This guy is a murderer. What kind a sick mind to do this, to bury women and children live? Why give this monster any air time. I am fine with discussion about this, with ideas what to do to obliterate these very sick murders. But no publicity for them, please! No pictures, no recordings. Please.

    • noshel

      We get filtered Airtime when we were slaughtering 2 million Iraqis though?. Our Government make sure that they control what the media could show, all the children we blow to smithereens, and all the women and children we slaughter in their beds or in corners, were all sanitized, and make what we did to those people look like it was thanksgiving!.

  • marygrav

    It is sad that Americans are being beheaded, but anyone in a War Zone is a target. WE want a free press, but embedding is too common since the Invasion of Iraq. George W. Bush when he used the press as embeds to prove how self-righteous WE were by freeing the Iraqi peoples from their oil, sealed the press’s fate in the Middle East and Asia.
    WE are in a linguistic trap in that we do not understand that the Arabs/ISIS realizes that theEuropean Colonizer still exist under the title of The International Community. The United States that was once recognized as an anti-Imperialist is now the leader of the Colonizers. What WE know as Sanctions is only a renaming of Hegemony. Hegemony is how the Colonizers controlled the Natives. Any Islamic allies are part of the Divide and Conquor techniques of Classic Colonization/Imperalism.
    What is particularly pernicious is the fact our #1 Ally in the Middle East is using the distraction of ISIS in Syria to illegally appropriate land on the West Bank. They seem to believe that this thief will not aggrevate the Unitied States position with it Allies in NATO and in the Middle East. This is what make Israel a very uncoperative ally that must rely on AIPAC to manipulate Congress in order to remain a US ally. This is not Anti-Semitism. They see how the US is trapped in the Middle East and know that while they stay out of the fray, Americans will die or be so damaged until death may be the blessing if they have to deal with the US Veteran’s Administration.
    Lord David Cameron, decendant of Colonizers, may call beheading “barbaric” but so is colonialism. It is a known fact that the only cure for a colonizer is to cut off his head. Then he losses all desire to colonize. This is callous of course, but remember what Homi Bhabba said, “The Western Narrative (of freedom) unravels in the telling.
    There would be no ISIS in Syria if the Sunni Arabs and Israel had not armed the so-called Syrian Rebels. WE have no right to interfer in a Civil War. Halper and Clarke in America Alone state that the Neocons had told Netanyahu that Syria could be delt with, i.e smashed, in the late 1990s, so after Iraq was smashed, and Libya was smashed, and Lebanon without Hezbollah was a paper tiger, Syria turn came.
    The Neocons overplayed their hands as usual and created ISIS out of the ashes of Al Qaeda. The Neocons think that the classwarfare that is waging in the US will be overshadowed by ISIS in the Lavant, but I think they are wrong.

  • hennorama

    dfg — remember also that rebel forces, including ISIL, also seized large large weapons caches from the Syrian military, including the takeover of the Menagh airbase outside Aleppo in August 2013:

    BEIRUT — Syrian rebels claimed Tuesday that they captured a long-contested military air base near the northern city of Aleppo and advanced in the loyalist heartland of Latakia, capping a day of setbacks for the government that underscored the see-saw nature of the Syrian civil war.

    Rebels overran the Menagh air base after carrying out a suicide bombing Monday near its main building, which had become a last refuge for government troops penned inside the compound, opposition activists said. In videos posted online, rebels showed off their spoils of ammunition and weapons.

    (. . . . mind the gap . . . .)

    The al-Qaeda-linked Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant played a major role in the assault on Menagh and the gains in Latakia, opposition groups said.

    Source:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/syrian-rebels-seize-key-airbase/2013/08/06/adf6a28e-fe6f-11e2-8294-0ee5075b840d_story.html

  • marygrav

    Sykes-Picot signals too much and makes the ISIS situation look too much like the beginning of World War 3. This too recalls that Colonization ended in 1914 although it continued until the African and Asian decolonization of the 1950s. Still the colonizer did not give up.

    Jack Woddis gives an interesting account of this in An Introduction To Neo-colonialism. He write on how the US military had to re-arm the Japanese to reinforce colonialism in Vietnam post-WWII. And Stephen Kinzer writes in The Brothers how the Dulles Brothers under the guise of hunting Communism established Neo-colonialism in the name of freedom and democracy thoughout Latin America and Africa, as well as in 1953 overthrew democracy in Iran.

    ISIS may be the big payback. I hope not. But propaganda won’t kill it, theirs or ours.

    • Arkuy The Great

      No, the only thing that can kill ISIS or any other such bloodthirsty, nihilistic organization is by killing more of them with greater efficiency than they can manage to perpetrate. There is a reason why the US lost about 400,000 people in WW2 but the Germans lost 9 million and the Japanese 3 million.

      • jefe68

        The official non-military and military losses in WW2 for Germany is 7,375,800. The overall total of German military deaths and that includes MIA’s and POW’s for both fronts is 3,904,103. The majority of those Germans died on the Eastern front which was 2,124,352.

        The Soviet lost roughly 8.7 million solders in WW2.

        Japan had about 2,120,000 military losses if you include civilian it was about 3,120,000.

  • Catty Long

    I agree that their own videos are going to tighten the knot around them. After all anyone who has qualms about war will agree in the end something has to be done about them.
    If they are doing those atrocities because we sent them a message, then maybe the message was not clear enough….

    • HonestDebate1

      I hope you’re right.

      • Catty Long

        If i was that isis guy mother, I would slap him unconscious before he could kill another woman’s son….
        But those SOB’s don’t seem to have a mother, they are going to find a father to set them straight!

    • nj_v2

      How much have you looked at the photos of the torture at Abu Ghraib? Photos of the innocent people killed by U.S. drone attacks? U.S. soldiers urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban soldiers?

      What’s the message there? Many people in the regions affected by U.S. occupation have seen those images, but few in the U.S. have.

      Why do you think people living in these areas wouldn’t react as strongly as you do to the recent ISIS videos?

      • Catty Long

        There is plenty injustice over the face of this earth…and many initiatives should be scrutinized deeply to avoid in the future the resurgence of such movements.
        People in those areas are terrified or don’t have the resources to do anything about it…
        But, the rest of the world is not….
        I’m not sure what the meaning of their videos is….But it’s for sure something that have to be stopped before anyone can make the next move.

    • Jonnie

      And what are we to do with the Zionist entity’s “beheading” of 2100 Palestinians? What clear message should we be sending to the terrorists in Jerusalem?

      • Catty Long

        I think the discussion is about the Isis social media attack……

  • noshel

    Tom,
    I wanted to call in this morning, but to the end of your program I heard two person say something close to what I wanted to say!.
    To me ISIS is no different from The President. The president have the option to use the Military, and airplanes and drones , and kill people in those countries, ISIS is doing with what it have, Our bombs, seem some how to be the way God say those we don’t like should die, and even when innocent is caught in those bombing, to us its justified!.
    But when one of these craze Islamic group capture one of us and beheads them, we cry wolf, we see that as barbaric, and we demonize them and call them the devil!. but our bombs some how seem to come from God!.
    Just think, None of those people that the President ordered killed in those and so air strikes, have never done one American anything, they never set foot on American soil.
    so lets explain how its right for us to go kill them and when some of our people who has done them nothing be killed, it some how seem to become one sided, they kill our innocent Journalist, but those we kill were all guilty , of just be in their country fighting against their each other?
    I watched after 911, how many Americans run to join the army because for once they were getting the opportunity to go kill Muslim fanatics, as our president and others had branded them!. but now they the ISIS are just return what we had done to them, and some how we cant stomach it!.
    This say its time for Us to stop being the world policeman, Stop attacking countries because we don’t like their leaders, or stop using proxies to do it!.
    Just look at how many innocent people who has lost their lives in Ukraine because of our reckless foreign policies! We don’t seem to ever learn, Yanukovych could be voted out of office and the people of Ukraine did not have to have Russia in their country, and there wouldn’t be a war, no Mydon, and no Russia invasion!.
    But we the US decide that we want to expand NATO so we create this proxy, and I say, if we don’t stop now we will see Nuclear war before we die!.
    The last time I check, we are all human, and I believe its time for us to live on this planet in peace and security , To us the beheadings look like a huge wrecking ball just like how a drop of water look to a rat, in the same breath our bombs look the same way to ISIS like a drop of water to the rat. And this is why we should stop right where it is now before things get worst, Don’t forget that we are the same ones , Yes the same ones who create this monster called ISIS, when we Take General Powel before the UN and lied to the world, how Saddam have WMD, and we go in , slaughter 2 millions, and then turn the tribes against each other, and now here we are!, ‘We give birth to a bouncing baby ISIS!.

  • noshel

    You are Naïve!,
    Google Gulf war 1 and look for the destruction back to Baghdad, the devastation and destruction we put down on those fleeing Iraqis troops?. may be you will start to get it, that we are as cruel as ISIS.

  • noshel

    Edward Snowdon has warned us , but it seem like much of it has fallen on deaf ears!.
    I remember Alex Jones was warning about the militarize of the police in America, and people was saying how he was a quack, Now look at what is truly happening?.
    We must leave the Middle east , let them take care of their one another like they use to do before!

  • noshel

    We are as monsters as they are barbaric!. Are you telling me that our Bombs are cleaner that their knife to the throat?.
    We are both killing.

    • HonestDebate1

      Our bombs are cleaner than their knife to the throat.

  • Ray in VT

    I don’t think that social media can be shut down. The platforms are out there, and we cannot control them. Even if we were to shut down the platforms over which we had jurisdiction, which I think isn’t really either practical or legal, then they will merely go elsewhere. The cat is out of the bag on this one, and groups are learning better how to use such technologies to their advantage.

  • http://stephensonstrategies.com W. David Stephenson

    There’s a local angle to this despicable story: the suspected mastermind of the media campaign is from Stoughton! http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/09/official-american-may-be-key-in-isis-social-media-blitz/?nwltr=blotter_subfeatureMore

  • technophant

    I’m one he head editors for the ISIL/ISIS Wikipedia article. The media blackout, esp. video, is very frustrating for researchers wanting to know what’s going on.

    • HonestDebate1

      It doesn’t fit the narrative.

  • HonestDebate1

    Senator Obama’s narcissistic egoism truly led him to believe he could change the world by his mere presence. What a dope!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32ww6-S8qo8

    • Ray in VT

      I know. He even thought that he could get the GOP to work with him. I remember when he thought that he could drop a little liberty and democracy in the Middle East and create some sort of democratic American ally. He’s really out there.

      I love Faux’s take on the whole issue, because who could have thought that getting rid of a guy in the White House who had led the United States on a series of ill-conceived boondoggles throughout the world and antagonized other nations instead of trying to work with them and replacing that guy with someone who’s M.O. was not you’re with me or against me Connecticut cowboy could possibly make a difference in how other nations interacted with us. Did ole Brit take the time to blame Russian aggression in Georgia on Obama or promote the fallacy that the stern Dubya made Russia back down? That would have been classic.

      • HonestDebate1

        I understand you reject in totality Obama’s “yes we can” bumper sticker slogan but skip to 1:18 and listen to Obama in his own words then tell me if you think his fantasy was rational.

        • Ray in VT

          You are not a serious person.

          • HonestDebate1

            Sure fine, that’s not the question. Was Obama’s view that his presence alone as a Muslim educated half-black man reality or fantasy? Forget me, what about Senator Obama’s words. Can you even address them?

          • Ray in VT

            TLDR.

          • HonestDebate1

            Are you sure you want to leave it there for the world to see how lame your dodge is? I’m happy to.

          • Ray in VT

            Why wouldn’t I be? You’re happy to leave every turd that you lay up for the world to see.

            So, is it your contention that the personality, character and approach of a particular leader does nothing to affect how other nations view, deal with and interact with a nation? That is my take away from what then Senator Obama said.

          • HonestDebate1

            Was he correct? Does history prove it?

            It is my contention he was delusional to think he had the goods to believe his own words. He was clearly wrong.

          • Ray in VT

            Being wrong and being delusional are two very different things, although you often combine the two very nicely.

          • HonestDebate1

            Fine, then I’ll agree with you, he was wrong. Dead assed wrong. If you think he had good reason to believe his messianic message was reasonable and justified then God bless you.

            So to move discourse forward, he was wrong so that means he lied by your definition. The fact that he did not know he was lying is irrelevant, right? And is that because all of the dictionaries say intent to deceive is not a component of lying? Or the majority? Or a few? Or is it a tortured cherry-picked meaning? Clear it up for me.

          • Ray in VT

            “So to move discourse forward, he was wrong so that means he lied by your definition.” I do not recall anyone making that case, except when you have ascribed that position to them.

            “Or is it a tortured cherry-picked meaning?” Nope, just valid dictionary definitions as both a verb and a noun. You seem to have a problem with reality that doesn’t conform to your beliefs.

          • HonestDebate1

            So you admit he was lying according to valid dictionary definitions. Thank you.

          • Ray in VT

            If one wants to. However, as has long been the case, Obama gets a different standard than Republicans like Bush, where you insist that intent must be shown. More despicable, dishonest hypocrisy. Pretty standard fare from you, however. Please hold him to the Bush standard and prove intent if you insist that it must exist.

          • HonestDebate1

            I am using your logic not mine. In doing so, I am using the same standard (yours) for Bush and Obama. the same is true when I say all those Democrats didn’t lie. I can see I hit a nerve.

          • Ray in VT

            I always find it interesting when people claim to “hit a nerve” or something. It seems to me that it is often because one is losing an argument and is seeking to make it some sort of emotional issue or something.

            Here’s the thing. “I am using your logic”? No, you are not. You are, as is often the case, misrepresenting the arguments and/or positions of others, making obviously flawed and/or bogus analogies, and usually well on the way to declaring some sort of victory, despite evidence to the contrary. It is clearly the case that you have little to no ability to make a coherent argument, much less understand those of others. It is very sad to witness.

            For instance, you claim that Obama lied about Benghazi, despite the fact that his statements were in line with then available information. That is far different from saying that Bush didn’t lie, when he made statements over a period of months that directly went against intelligence community assessments, and you seek to “let off” Democrats for repeating lies told to them, as many in Congress at the time that these yarns about Iraq were being spun were not aware of the intelligence community positions that ran directly counter to what Congress and the American people were being told. So the lied to aren’t liars, just like the liars? How very big of you. Truly the finest bottom-feeding “logic” that you have yet presented.

          • HonestDebate1

            Bizarre.

          • Ray in VT

            Oh, is Faux News still beating the conspiracy drums? There’s a surprise. But hey, if you want to choose to believe that instead of the established facts, then that isn’t a surprise. “The notion Obama was working on the best intelligence is the most thoroughly debunked nonsense in the universe.” Maybe in TEAbagger world, where up is down and beliefs not supported by facts are facts.

            The dishonestly of your arguments are truly tiring. Please show me where I, or anyone else, is arguing that the video sparked the attack on the consulate? It’s not like those who defended the WMD lines vis a vis Iraq long after none were found or those who stick by the lies that Bush told, because some of the stuff that he said in the lead up to the war was in no way supported by the assessments of the intelligence community, unlike Obama’s comments regarding the potential role of the video in the days after Benghazi. It’s not hard to understand how the latter isn’t a lie, unless one is committed to smearing the President as a liar, while defending the actual lies that helped to lead to 4,500 American deaths in Iraq. Yet, somehow, you still struggle with it. Not at all surprising.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — then-Senator Obama said:

            — the day that I’m inaugurated, not only does the country look at itself differently, the world looks at America differently

            – if I’m reaching out to the Muslim world, they understand that I’ve lived in a Muslim country and I may be a Christian, but I also understand their point of view …

            – the world will have confidence that I am listening to them [the Muslim world]; that will ultimately make us safer

            Nothing demonstrably wrong there.

          • jefe68

            Can you address this absurd comment?
            What a load of complete nonsense.

          • HonestDebate1

            Can you?

          • jefe68

            Why would anyone take anything you have posted in this thread seriously. It’s a load of nonsense and nothing more. You make a an anti Obama screed and then expect to be taken seriously?

            Don’t you have some horse stalls to clean out?

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — curious how Fox News edited Sen. Obama’s remarks, without saying so, isn’t it?

            There’s much more that candidate Obama said, prior to “…that will ultimately make us safer.”

            Not that I’m a fan of this source, but they at least didn’t chop up the interview:

            http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/14/FLASHBACK-Obama-The-Day-Im-Inaugurated-Muslim-Hostility-Will-Ease

          • HonestDebate1

            What did they edit? Are you contending they should have aired the entire interview? That’s silly, the comment was clear. His stance was known, he even had the greek columns and said he’d heal the planet.

            It was a clip not an edit. An edit is akin to what NBC did to George Zimmerman. You are really stretching here.

          • Ray in VT

            Oh, when did he say that he would heal the planet?

          • HonestDebate1

            Right after he said he’d stop the oceans from rising.

          • Ray in VT

            When did he say that? Please provide a quote showing that he said that he would do these things.

          • HonestDebate1

            You know what I’m talking about, you heard it. You know what he meant, you know the context. If you want to reply with a tortured parse to defend his tragically flawed image of himself then fine, have at it.

          • Ray in VT

            Oh, so you don’t have a quote to support your contention, just more TEAbagger belief. Got it. Thanks for playing.

  • HonestDebate1

    Beheadings are not funny.

  • Jonnie

    I’m much more concerned with the Zionist entity’s “beheading” of 2100 Palestinians, and American complicity in said terrorism, than the death of a couple journalists (one being a jahood himself).

    • hennorama

      Jonnie — your biases are clear, beginning with “the Zionist entity,” and ending with “jahood.”

      • Jonnie

        Interesting how true objective statements are construed as “bias[]” by some. Is anything I posted untrue?

        You can fool most of the American public with your obfuscation of the truth, as that’s not too hard, but the rest of the world knows the truth about the terrorism perpatrated on the people of the Middle East by the Zionist entity.

        • hennorama

          Jonnie — thank you for your response.

          For the sake of the rest of the forum, please define “the Zionist entity,” and “jahood,” then explain what Mr. Sotloff’s religion has to do with your lack of concern.

          • Jonnie

            As any reader of Middle East history knows, the “Zionist entity” is the state founded in Palestine by the victorious WWII powers as a “homeland” for Jews; and which is based on the racist ideology of Zionism.

            I said nothing about Mr. Sotloff’s religion, only that he was a citizen of the Zionist entity. It seems to me that your raciest assumption that citizenship of the Zionist entity is based on religious affiliation, i.e., Judaism, seems to make my point.

          • hennorama

            Jonnie — one notices that your screed has excluded any definition of “jahood.”

            Care to try again, or have you decided to avoid making another so-called “objective true statement”?

          • Jonnie

            No problem, “jahood” is Arab slang for a citizen of the Zionist entity.

          • hennorama

            Jonnie — thank you for your response.

            It’s falseness further demonstrates the lack of “objective true statements” in your other posts.

  • HonestDebate1

    Phil Robertson says convert them or kill them.

    • jimino

      If only such faux manly men as him and Hannity would actually put their own asses on the line. Hell, they won’t even pay for the cost of others doing their bidding. It’s no surprise these are people you admire.

      • HonestDebate1

        Who said I admire either?

      • hennorama

        jimino — it seems that Hannity has cornered the market on religious fundamentalists who may express a “Convert or die!” attitude.

        Last week, Hannity “interviewed” Iman Anjem Choudary. This was part of the “interview”(emphasis added):

        HANNITY: You have blamed the killing of this photojournalist on America. Now, whatever military reaction that we had in Mosul and the surrounding areas was in reaction to ISIS demanding convert to Islam or die. Do you support ISIS demanding that Christians, the Yazidis, convert to Islam or die? Do you support that?

        ANJEM CHOUDARY, LONDON IMAM: Well, there’s two questions there, one about what the Islamic State is actually asking (INAUDIBLE) to do and how this particular incident began. In fact, I seem to remember people were shocked and awed over 10 years ago when the Americans carpet-bombed this area and killed hundreds of thousands of people.

        HANNITY: I asked you a simple question!

        (CROSSTALK)

        HANNITY: Do you support — hang on!

        CHOUDARY: What I’m talking about…

        HANNITY: Do you support convert to Islam or die?

        (. . . . mind the gap . . . . )

        HANNITY: Do you — now you didn’t answer my question. Do you support ISIS telling Christians, the Yazidis, in Mosul, northern Iraq, that they must convert to Islam, pay a tax or die? What do you think of that?

        CHOUDARY: This is simply false. It didn’t happen

        See:
        http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/transcript/2014/08/28/exclusive-hannity-one-one-imam-anjem-choudary-rise-radical-islam

    • TFRX

      I’m glad that weird-bearded crazy religious zealots never get anywhere on American TV.

  • Vic Volpe

    Loosing Our Heads

    The recent beheadings from the Middle East over the past several weeks only serve to illuminate the vast differences in our “civilized” world for expressing dissenting opinions versus theirs. It reminds me of a point Jacob Bronowski made in his televised series from the 1970’s ‘The Ascent Of Man’, that we humans were not just lower than angels but also just one step above animal behavior. However, we are, he notes, the one animal that use our brain, we reason, use our emotional being, to not accept things as they are, but to change. Unlike animals, we humans have evolved not just biologically, but have shaped our cultural evolution and thus his title to the series, The Ascent Of Man.
    When President Kennedy spoke at Houston, Texas in 1962 to explain why we are going to the Moon, he addressed the human quest for progress that was coupled to our thirst for knowledge. As an example he boiled down human existence to a fifty year period to explain how progress and knowledge were linked and that most of that change had occurred quite recently giving the appearance of rapid change.
    I believe the conflict we have with the extreme Islamic fundamentalists is basic to that rapid change of pace brought on by technological advancement forcing change in societies not adapted to cultural change. I do not think religion has that much to do with it. I think the extremists have identified Western cultures with pushing the technological advancement and in reaction to that oppose anything “Western”. And to the extent they can use religion as a tool for resistance they do. But I think it is more of an Arab and Middle East problem that just Islam. After all there are plenty of Islamic people in Asia that fit right in with the “modernized” world as well as those from the Middle East region that have settled in the United States and live side-by-side with others from different cultural backgrounds. And the democratic process for resolving conflict in society does not seem to be a natural fit for an Arab culture that remains too bound to tribal ties. And this in spite of the wealth that has been produced in many of the Middle East states and advanced education received by the elite and some of the middle class in those societies.
    While the beheading of Westerners receives a great deal of attention in the Western press, there are public beheadings by our friends the Saudis on a weekly basis. Of course when sanctioned by the State, such an affair receives all the formality one would expect for such a ceremonial spectacle. And, unlike the recent execution of Westerners, you can view these exhibitions on the Web – they are not removed from viewing for their grotesqueness. Also on the Web are video of Islamic terrorists beheading “infidels” in less formal arrangements and with less proficient technique. But there is still a crowd gathered just like an old time hanging in America in the 19th or 20th Century. There is even one video of a child being given the “honor” to do in the “infidel” and with results not anywhere as efficient as a Saudi executioner.
    One of the points that Jacob Bronowski makes is that technological advance, inquiry, is part of the human spirit and that intolerance is a betrayal of that basic human spirit. The arrogance that comes with dogma promotes ignorance. In the program, Bronowski stood at Auschwitz, where he lost members of his family, and said we have to temper ourselves by reaching out to others – “We have to touch people.”
    We have had relations with the Saudis for many, many decades – militarily and commercially. And I am aware it is a complicated relationship – as was testified to by several of our diplomats during the 9-11 Commission hearings. I like to think of myself as a pragmatic ‘Realist’ rather than an ‘Idealist’ or ‘NeoCon’ when discussing foreign policy; but, I have to think that something has failed in the long relationship we have had with the Saudis. And I think they have been the prime instigator in promoting extremists in Islam because of their brand of Wahhabism, the relationship of the religious leaders with the political leadership, and the distribution of wealth and economic opportunity within the country. I have no idea what it would take to bring the country into the “modern” world; but, just looking at our part, I would think we could put more pressure on the ruling family by economic means – and that’s keeping in mind that they initiated the Oil Embargo of 1973 which not only affected our economy but also our military readiness at that time and they have been somewhat cooperative in our intelligence networks and behind the scenes dealing with Israel.
    It took Southern Italy a long time to come into the “modern” world – aspects of feudalism existed right into the 20th Century, even today. If the paganism of Southern Italy could get enwrapped into Christianity maybe there is a lesson for Saudi Arabia. Let’s hope it doesn’t take as long.
    The fact that this barbarity still goes on today reminds me of a book by Victor Davis Hanson, ‘A War Like No Other’. Hanson is a classical scholar who wrote about the Peloponnesian War of the 5th Century B.C. between the democratic and “civilized” Athens and the autocratic and regimented Sparta. He describes how after thirty years of constant war, the “civilized” Athens descended into barbaric acts just as crude as Sparta. And Hanson asks what is the nature of man? That “civilized” man was shielded from animalistic instincts by a thin veil that could be pierced with so little provocation.

    So, when do we touch one another and put our heads together, like at the end of the movie Rain Man, and advance the human spirit?

    • Jonnie

      Give it a rest dude…nobody’s going to read your magazine piece! This is the place for COMMENTS, not a dissertation!

    • Godzilla the Intellectual

      There are simpler ways to masturbate than writing a long-winded piece of propaganda.

    • The poster formerly known as t

      “The arrogance that comes with dogma promotes ignorance.” Only if you could pay heed to your own words.

      “that technological advance, inquiry, is part of the human spirit” Technological advances have allowed the Middle East, mostly arid region to support a population so large that there’s more people than work for them to do has contributed to a lot of the desperation that leads unemployed young men suffering from social exclusion towards terrorism. If technology is part of the human spirit it certainly contributes to a lot of problems.

      Technologies and religions come and go, but human nature never changes. Go tell your think tank that on Monday and see if they don’t immediately kick you out for invalidating their dogma.

      • Vic Volpe

        The region has wasted its wealth by not keeping up with technological advance, that could have benefited a wide portion of society, even for employment.

        For example, read either of Daniel Yergin’s books but especially his last, The Quest. The use of info tech has been responsible for the new discoveries in oil and the ways to get at that oil in different parts of the world.

        Just to mention one other area: you could go around the globe and find many non-Western people involved in the advances in medical pratice/medical tech/bio-tech.

    • D_from_Tennessee

      I find so much interesting information in the comments sections on the internet. You make some very realistic points Mr. Volpe. I will definitely check out the books you mentioned.

  • JagNathan

    Only when the West starts sawing off the heads of some of the guys in Guantanamo Bay and any of these jihadis we capture and broadcast it to the world live would these guys stop. The only way to stop them is put
    the fear of a torturous death in them. The alternative is for the West to continue giving these animals Human Rights and protection of the West’s democratic legal system and watch our sons and daughters have their heads sawed off. I am not sure when we started offering Human Rights to Animals.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Sep 18, 2014
Flickr/Steve Rhodes

After a summer of deadly clashes between Gaza and Israel, we talk to Jews on the left and right about the future of liberal Zionism. Some say it’s over.

Sep 18, 2014
(Flickr/AisleTwentytwo)

Billionaires. We’ll look at the super super rich, and their global shaping of our world.

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Sep 17, 2014
Bob Dylan and Victor Maymudes at "The Castle" in LA before the 1965 world tour. Lisa Law/The Archive Agency)

A new take on the life and music of Bob Dylan, from way inside the Dylan story. “Another Side of Bob Dylan.”

 
Sep 17, 2014
Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson watches from the sidelines against the Oakland Raiders during the second half of a preseason NFL football game at TCF Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, Friday, Aug. 8, 2014. (AP/Ann Heisenfelt)

The NFL’s Adrian Peterson and the emotional debate underway about how far is too far to go when it comes to disciplining children.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
Talking Through The Issue Of Corporal Punishment For Kids
Wednesday, Sep 17, 2014

On Point dove into the debate over corporal punishment on Wednesday — as Minnesota Vikings running back Adrian Peterson faces charges in Texas after he allegedly hit his four-year-old son with a switch.

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Our Week In The Web: September 12, 2014
Friday, Sep 12, 2014

In which you had varied reactions to the prospect of a robotic spouse.

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Beverly Gooden on #WhyIStayed
Friday, Sep 12, 2014

Beverly Gooden — who originated the #WhyIStayed hashtag that has taken off across Twitter — joined us today for our discussion on domestic violence.

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