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Why Westerners Are Joining The ISIS Ranks

With guest host Jane Clayson.

Britons, Europeans and Americans are joining the ranks of ISIS. We’ll look at what’s pulling them in.

This file photo posted on the website freejamesfoley.org shows journalist James Foley in Aleppo, Syria, in July, 2012.In a horrifying act of revenge for U.S. airstrikes in northern Iraq, militants with the Islamic State extremist group have beheaded Foley — and are threatening to kill another hostage, U.S. officials say. (AP)

This file photo posted on the website freejamesfoley.org shows journalist James Foley in Aleppo, Syria, in July, 2012.In a horrifying act of revenge for U.S. airstrikes in northern Iraq, militants with the Islamic State extremist group have beheaded Foley — and are threatening to kill another hostage, U.S. officials say. (AP)

Last week an American journalist was beheaded by a member of ISIS. A man with a British accent. He’s just one of the estimated 12,000 foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq joining radical Islamic groups.  Among them are American, Brits and many Europeans.  With passports that allow them to travel freely without a visa. Many are warning of danger. That members of ISIS are only a plane ticket away from American shores. This hour, On Point: why westerners are joining ISIS and what it means for our security.

– Jane Clayson

Guests

Pete Neumann, director of the International Center for the Study of Radicalization. Professor of security studies at King’s College London. Author of “Old and New Terrorism.” (@PeterRNeumann)

Humera Khan, executive director of Muflehun. (@khanserai)

Patrick Skinner, director of special projects for the Soufan Group. Former CIA Case Officer. (@SkinnerPm)

From The Reading List

Christian Science Monitor: Why young Europeans are becoming jihadis — “Driven by everything from anger at the mass killing of Muslims by the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad to a sense of idealism about joining a possible new religious state, young people are leaving the security of their families, their educations, and often their suburban lifestyles to support jihadi groups. Some of them are joining rebel movements linked to Al Qaeda. Others are aligning with even more-radical Islamic cells.”

The Daily Beast: Al Qaeda’s American Fighters Are Coming Home—And U.S. Intelligence Can’t Find Them — “Western intelligence services have been warning that European and American jihadists have been flocking to Syria to fight. But they’ve been reluctant to say how many Americans have joined the extremist forces there—until now. The latest U.S. intelligence estimates say that more than 100 Americans have joined the jihad in Syria to fight alongside Sunni terrorists there.”

The Independent: Islamic State: British fighters make up a quarter of foreign jihadists – “Britain accounts for around one in four of all European fighters who have pledged their allegiance to Isis, with an estimated 500 Britons among 2,000 foreign fighters from across Europe.”

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  • Geheran1958

    While the reasons may vary, there is one compelling draw that pulls faithful Muslim to join the likes of ISIS: Islamic scripture obligates every able-bodied adult Muslim Male to wage jihad. It is a serious religious duty that adherent male Muslims must confront.

    • KomaGawa

      I think you should add into your first sentence, “Western newbies believe that there is one compelliing draw” they believe taht Islamic scripture obligates…” Your first sentence seems to be a typical slip of the mind by people who are not familiar with the Quran 2:190, “Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God does not love transgressors,” This exposes a central issue for people looking at the Qur’an unsystematically, because the same selective viewing of the Old Testament, for example: “I will sing praise to your name, O Most High…. The enemies have vanished in everlasting ruins; their cities you have rooted out; the very memory of them has perished…. The LORD will swallow up his enemies in his wrath, and fire will consume them. [He] will destroy their offspring from the earth … their children from … humankind.” (Psalms 9:2, 6, and 21:9-10).
      So these Western newbies who were first exposed to a Judeo-Christian society, have seen something in the Qur’an which they projected from their internal psychological states. “Projection” is a very familiar psychological mechanism, or tool used by the psyche to protect itself from self-destruction. They use this as a way to escape and redefine themselves according to a clearer more well-defined situation. The ambiguity or uncertainty in their Western social situation is removed in their minds as they can see/ or they are willing to be told, what is good and what is bad/evil.

      • Geheran1958

        Qur’anic verses are notoriously ambiguous and conflicting which is why there are so many “misunderstanders” among the ummah. Islamic scriptures are replete with passages that promote violent jihad. My imam in Brooklyn, N.Y. recently had this to say: Rami Kawas: “What do we do today to free the land of Palestine? What is our narrative? What is our story? What can we do”? “Oh you who believe” – all of you – “it is prescribed upon you to fight.”

        “Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.” — Qur’an 2:216. With mandates like this, Muslims should not be blamed for “misunderstanding” their sacred texts. What say you.

        On Sunday, August 24, 2014, Disqus <notifications@disqus.net

        • KomaGawa

          So, from mid-May I have been reading and sharing discussions with others through an online course on Islam. thus.. I have actually read most of the Holy Qur’an, and this compliments years and years of Sunday school time going through the Holy Bible. My conclusions, and those with whom I shared my course ALL agree,
          a) there are no contradictions between the Holy Qur’an and the Holy Bible. But of course people are free to think/believe there are. We live in a free country, and people are free to believe what they want. Long ago I used to enjoy arguing/debating with those people.
          Now I’m working on an end of term paper which I promiced my prof. IT based on a survey of the communication behavior of 3 world faith’s clergy “Islam, Judiasm,Christianity towards one another.
          Deeds speak louder than words.

          • Geheran1958

            Your “online course” notwithstanding, I beg to differ and offer this well-researched article of just two examples of stark contradictions between the Bible and the Qur’an.

          • KomaGawa

            Sorry I didnt make myself clear because the complexity of surface disagreement and deep water agreement between the Holy Qur’an and the Holy Bible.
            If the educational systems would expose kids to these two books in an unprejudiced way, it would help social conditions, I am sure. After all, I offer myself as a typical example, I was raised as a respectful dutiful Southern Presbyterian in a small town, I went to schools which believed in Christian theology. my curiosity was not destroyed, only suppressed by the experience, I was an average joe taught by average joes. It doesnt take much to demonstrate toleration and respect towards others.

    • JAH

      whats your point, so does the old testament, which is part of Muslim religion too. that doesn’t mean you have to adhere to it. its the leaders that use it to justify war for their own reasons, but people wont fight to the death for more land for a state, but will if its for a divine power. Christians did this during the crusades, and now the Muslims are having their own crusades.

      • Geheran1958

        Precisely my point. Those Muslims who “misunderstand” their sacred texts are stuck in the seventh century while us non-believers have moved on.

  • KomaGawa

    Is there that much difference between American society reluctance to have a sustained coordinated will to heal our race relations, and our avoidance of forming connections/associations with Muslims? Would you object if your daughter/son married a Muslim?

    • Jasoturner

      Race relations are not predicated on religious or ideological antagonisms, so I would say there is a fundamental difference. This is not to say that America has not struggled with issues of race, merely to point out that the two issues are not particularly analogous.

    • JAH

      its not really about race, for instance jews and Muslims are of the same ethic background, and they still fight each other. its because of a warped world view that any religion creates.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Islamist Militias Claim Control of Libyan Capital

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/islamist-militias-claim-control-libyan-capital

    The Jihadists that now control most of Libya are no doubt most appreciative that Obama and his former Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, ‘liberated’ Libya for them.

    Enjoy your vacation on Martha’s Vineyard President Obama,
    you earned it.

    • northeaster17

      Just as the Iraqis’ must surely feel the same for the Neo-Con love grip of the last decade. Your single note world is a strange place.

  • AC

    i think we’ve found something to occupy westboro babtist loonies. i say put all the religious fanatics on their own planet and let them do what they love best – kill in the name of god….i wish this were possible….

    • HonestDebate1

      Westboro loonies are certainly that, but why lump them in with radical Islamists? The Westboro loonies don’t kill in the name of God.

      • JAH

        some do, tim McVeigh, abortion clinic bombers and shooters, Eric Rudolph. i think more of it doesn’t happen because we have a free society, people are able to vent their rage through words and don’t have to resort to physical violence.

        • HonestDebate1

          There are nut cases, always will be. McVeigh was an atheist and there is no church endorsing Rudolph’s loner tactics. I don’t think a case can be made that Christianity is a religion of hate and murder.

          • JAH

            other than all the wars so called Christians have started, i am sure you are right ;)

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then.

          • JAH

            and rudolph really was not a loner, he received a ton of support from people who sheltered him because they believed in what he was doing and that he was doing it for god.

          • AC

            what was the holy war then? if people aren’t careful, that’s where this will head – and what is a holy war, if not killing in the name of god?
            also, wasn’t martin luther killed by the pope’s orders? and other ‘intrigues’ we know nothing about?

          • HonestDebate1

            We’ve learned a lot in the last half millennia. Most of the planet became civilized. Most religious dogma evolved past persecution. Islam not so much. Beheading at the altar of the Almighty is unseemly these days.

          • AC

            youre more optimistic than i, i still feel as if we have a long, long way to grow and evolve…

          • JAH

            yeah, i don’t think you can really say westerns are less war hungry, yeah there is not fighting on the homeland, but that is because they learned after WW2 to not destroy each other, go to another country and fight a proxy war. much more political tenable to not have war on your doorstep. and they still use religion to justify these wars, calling just wars under christian beliefs. not to mention the march towards peace in Europe has more to do with secularism then religion changing.

          • JAH

            but that is only because the Christians already went through what the Muslims are going through now. that’s really the only solution, let them fight it out and stay the hell out of it. religious people can’t be reasoned with.

          • Radical___Moderate

            This dialectical materialist Marxist view of history really is not accurate. That is that things evolve in predictable philological ways. Bottom line folks. Is that the West, which was and is predominantly Christian there last 2000 years. Made the world better over all for SURE. Before you disagree like ill-informed people, which I am sure you are not, please read the Pulitzer prize winning book, “The Rise of the West” by Wm. McNeil. Then respond.

          • keltcrusader

            “I don’t think a case can be made that Christianity is a religion of hate and murder.”

            Really, because if you do the slightest amount of reading, it most certainly can! It’s history is littered with death and mayhem and current-day Christians pride themselves on just how much hate they can show to those they think aren’t “normal” or that don’t proscribe to their made-up religion.

          • Ray in VT

            McVeigh was an agnostic, Republican aligned, Libertarian Party supporting NRA member, and Rudolph was alleged to be associated with Christian Identity, which is a movement that has been highly associated with various radical and violent groups.

      • AC

        you’re right, i just feel like they would be if they could!

  • Jon

    faith religion ideology what else?

  • HonestDebate1

    “ISIS is here” read one sign at the Ferguson protest. That group was fertile ground for jihadist recruiters.

    • nj_v2

      ^ Delusional, right-wing troll alert!

      • Radical___Moderate

        How about those odd “delusional left wing nuts”??? Are there none?? Just watch the majority of the mainstream American media.

  • Ed75

    This morning the BBC ran an interview with an English Muslim who had gone to Syria to fight with the jihadis because he saw Muslim women and children, innocents, being killed in the Middle East … but then realized that the group he joined was doing the same thing or worse, even to Muslims, that these people were a fraud. He was fortunate enough to be able to get out, but he said many can’t.

  • Jasoturner

    We observe that these jihadists become little more than empty vessels carrying out the brutal dictates of their religious leaders. This is no longer religion. It constitutes mind control, a cult. There is thus a component of mental capitulation that needs to be acknowledged on the part of these individuals. They simply have given up, and Islam is just something – anything – to fill a mental void. This does not make them less dangerous, but at least it makes their embrace of this crazy ideology somewhat intelligible.

    • Ed75

      I agree, although it involves rituals and prayers it has lost all claim to religion. I think they see the caliphate as an ideal state, but that’s about it.

      • J__o__h__n

        It hasn’t lost claim to religion. This is the result of religion not held in check by secularism.

        • Ed75

          If one counts a heretical and incorrect religion, then I guess so. As St. James writes in his letter, ‘the caring for widows and orphans … this is true religion …’.

          • J__o__h__n

            They are all incorrect.

          • Ed75

            That’s a strong metaphysical statement: that there is no revelation. As a Catholic, I would have to disagree.

    • HonestDebate1

      It’s generational. Their religious leaders were brainwashed the same way.

    • brettearle

      My guestimate is that you are 100% radically demonizing ISIS–as if none of its members have a political conscience or political ideology; as if all they think of is, ‘kill the enemy and take over land and power’.

      They are Evil in intent and action. But their doctrine may not necessarily be reflected in the auspices of a Blind Cult.

      To misperceive the Enemy is to give the Enemy an undesirable advantage….

      • Jasoturner

        With this: “…brutal dictates of their religious leaders”, I am suggesting that the leadership has motives and ideology that is not apparent to the average follower, who is, indeed, essentially brainwashed.

        To respond more directly, I learned long ago that underestimating people is just about the stupidest thing you can do. I have no doubt that there are very cunning minds motivating ISIS. I also have no doubt that some of the more religiously deluded have no real understanding of how manipulated they are.

        • brettearle

          I see your distinction.

          But I am not at all sure that the rank-and-file are all mindless sheeple….

      • hennorama

        brettearle — one might ascribe less “stickiness” to those local recruits who have joined along the way, as they might simply be “going with a winner,” and might peel off should there be significant reversals on the ground.

        In my view, the more effort one puts in to join, the less likely one is to reverse course, regardless of ifeology, “mind control,” etc.

  • Ed75

    But all young people want a noble cause to fight for, and the relativistic West (except for the pro-life movement) doesn’t provide it. We see the healthy support of this desire of young people in the World Youth Days (most recently with Pope Francis in Korea) where he encourages them to do great things with their lives.

    • Jasoturner

      Climate Change? Industrial Farming? Government Transparency? Unbiased Journalism? Domestic Spying?

      I can think of a few noble causes that merit more attention than trying to kill people who don’t believe in the same received wisdom as yourself.

      • HonestDebate1

        I would fight for some of that but it got me thinking it would be a great topic. It would be interesting to know how different people valued different causes and which ones they would be willing to fight for. I would imagine fighting for causes amongst an intellectually diverse population means fighting each other. I guess we’ve seen that.

      • Ed75

        I agree, those are all good causes that young people are indeed getting involved in.

  • stephenreal

    The veil of Islam is a farce (for these lone wolves). These so called “Jihadis” do not under stand the Holy Quran. Do think these people actually took the time to read, study and reflect on Islam? No way.
    We have to find a way to empower the Sunni community.
    Baghdad is doing absolutely nothing for the Sunni Provinces.

    • AC

      what are some good ways to do such a thing? i thought changing the president was suppose to help in this, but if it did, it’s not very obvious. yet. i suppose time is a factor.

      • JAH

        really, i agree with bill maher on this, the Christians went through this during the crusades, and the Muslims are basiclly having thier own cursades right now. Nothing we do will change thier minds, and if it werent for oil we wouldn’t even be involved. But really we just need to keep out of it, no point of inserting ourselves in a holy war.

        • stephenreal

          America right now produces more oil then the whole Middle Eat combined. The production of natural gas alone is leading a new revolution in gas export technology.

        • AC

          i dont think i stand human abuse very well. or animal. i’m not the type to walk away from something that doesn’t concern me if it is causing serious suffering….

          • JAH

            so we should get involved in every single conflict? i don’t think its our place to be the police of the world, this is not the only place people are suffering right now. its just gets news coverage because of our interests in the area, ie oil.

          • AC

            ! i think the whole world needs to get involved – this can not be allowed – end of story!!

      • stephenreal

        History is littered with socio-paths. Jeffrey Dalmer, Lee Harvey Oswald for example…etc.,etc. etc….

  • liminalx

    “Why Westerners Are Joining The ISIS Ranks?” Could it be they are disillusionment with the false promises of western culture, the classism, racism, the concentration of wealth in the hands of the very few? Could it be because the fate of “Michael Brown” is iconic for those who (believe themselves) are disempowered, and Darren Wilson iconic for those who believe themselves aligned with western power?

    • stephenreal

      No. not at all. That’s false equivalent. Why you ask? because causation is not correlation

      • liminalx

        No cause and effect in your world? Indeed, react to the synonyms (effects) while the cause fully metastasis…

        • stephenreal

          Correlation does not imply causation is a phrase in science and statistics that emphasizes that a correlation between two variables does not necessarily imply that one causes the other. Many statistical tests calculate correlation between variables. A few go further and calculate the likelihood of a true causal relationship; examples are the Granger causality test and convergent cross mapping.

          We could go into the social psychology aspects behind all of these statistics but it’s hardly my field.

          • HonestDebate1

            Sure it implies it, but implications are not proof.

    • J__o__h__n

      No, they are victims of religion. Anyone who converts to a religion as an adult and not as a result of childhood brainwashing has to have a screw loose.

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      Thoughtful comment.

  • stephenreal

    They call it the Ramada Inn for a dang reason everybody. The Middle East legendary for it’s hospitality. So there is a large disconnect from the reality on the ground from what see on television and the internet. On mass. This is not, however, too deny these mass homicides in Iraq and Syria.

  • stephenreal

    The map is gonna be redrawn. The old English Imperial map is dead. It’s a mirage in the sand.

    • Radical___Moderate

      Well, then we will see if they really can manage their own affairs any better without some form of outside help. Won’t we?

  • stephenreal

    United States Naval Academy professor, Political Science at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University. Prof. Sinanovic; is teaching on behalf of the International Institute of Islamic Thought (IIIT), a part of the US Muslim Brotherhood and where global Brotherhood leader Youssef Qaradawi reportedly serves as a trustee.

    Commander Qaradawi of the Muslim brotherhood has done off the hook work on the origins of so-called “Islamic Extremism”.

    This subject matter is just as hard as taking the Chicago Board of Exchange exams. Not easy. Very difficult to grasp. Youssef is the man though. No doubt about it.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    20 years ago, giants walked the earth: Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, Steve Jobs. In America now there is no cash, no hope, and no jobs.
    –Prof. Irwin Corey

    No wonder the young men of color in England & the US are fleeing to a foreign group that promises them a new life, new hope, and for the first time in their lives: some measure of respect. This is the real failure of the New Democratic Capitalism.*

    * Reagan through Obama, LLP {founding partners}

    • Tequila_Mckngbrd

      The best part of joining the Jihadists is that when you get a promotion, you’re with Allah and 72 virgins.

      • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

        80 virgins with the inflation that financial genii promise is on the way. Hoober Doober

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I will go to Estonia to confront Vladimir Putin. But I will not go to Ferguson, Detroit, the southern US border, or any other place in America where my own failures as president are on conspicuous display.
    –Barack H. Obama {Visionary for all Mankind}

    I guess humanity should be grateful you came back from vacation.

    • brettearle

      Go plaque your own parasitic cohorts, at some radical Right Wing Hate Obama Web Site.

      Your comments, in this Forum, have a repugnant smell of garbage to them. The smell never fails.

      You bring Less Than Nothing to the Table.

      You’re basically an unwanted vagrant here.and a full Disgrace.

      • hennorama

        As others have said multiple times — please, DISQUS, give us an [Ignore user] option.

        • keltcrusader

          amen!

        • HonestDebate1

          You already have that option.

        • Jasoturner

          Perhaps it;s time to forge a coalition of the civil…

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I don’t object to killing.
    –Benjamin Netanyahu

    We don’t object to killing.
    –Hamas

    I don’t object to killing.
    –Barack Obama

    Me, too!
    –David Cameron

    Ditto.
    –Bashar al-Assad

    We don’t object to killing.
    –IS

    Well, thank goodness we can all agree about SOMETHING.

    • Radical___Moderate

      I don’t think we should be gloating about be for killing anyone.

      • nj_v2

        Whoosh … !

        The sound of satire sailing by the “professional historian.”

        • Radical___Moderate

          Are you for killing people?? Or do you just like to add nothing of substance to folks trying to have a slightly meaningful conversation??

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    If you occupy territory you have to hold it. Something Donald the Duck Rumsfeld didn’t understand.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    IS will get nuclear weapons the day after they put a man in space.

  • creaker

    Why did westerners flock to Palestine and overthrow it to create the state of Israel?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    IS should concentrate on flush toilets before they try to spin uranium gas.

  • wynn

    Just as Al-Qaeda was a creation of the Amerika, IS/ISIS/ISIL is no different. This ragtag group’s prowess is wildly inflated to get our sheeple begging for more military action around the world but especially the Middle East. Yes, it is fear mongering!

    That these unsophisticated groups will get their hands on “nuclear weapons” is sheer rubbish. Oh, when this group, and our citizens working with them, was destroying Syria it wasn’t an issue. What happened when they crossed into Iraq? Also, how is our citizens working with such groups any different than our soldiers engaged in the war? Must be something in the water in Amerika, eh?

    • creaker

      The new boogie man definitely – but also deflection from the fact that we helped this flourish.

      I’ve also seen reports blaming the Assad regime even though they were the ones fighting ISIS, while we were supporting the rebels.

  • J__o__h__n

    mm mm

  • kevin.eckes

    If foreign recruitment of fighters by ISIS is mainly done through social media channels, wouldn’t it technically be possible to block possible extremist groups from using social media sites? Incentivize social media companies to root and out and extinguish such accounts. It might not qualify as stifling free speech if such speech is clearly hateful or meant to incite violence.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    So long, Mom
    I’m off to be a bomb
    So don’t wait up for me..
    –Mohammed the Barista

    (apologies to Tom Lehrer}

  • hennorama

    Foreign volunteers in warfare are nothing new. For example, Americans volunteered in both World Wars before the US officially entered those conflicts.

    As the guests have said, the main reasons are adventure-seeking, ideological reasons, and also to derive some benefit, such as citizenship, financial gain, a sense of belonging, etc.

  • DeJay79

    I’m a bit with the caller Andrew on this.

    If the threat is medium to long term then we should let then have their country and then help them be prosperous. there by taking away any motivation to attack us.

    • Jill122

      you mean they are only killing Iraqis (and perhaps Syrians) because the US is attacking them? If we stopped fighting they would leave us alone? What about the people who are unable to fight for themselves? Do we have any obligation to help them?

      Presumably we are only there because we have been asked to help.

      • DeJay79

        Power is a really thing it is not the nicest thing that exist in the world but it is here. People want it and will fight for it. The weak will allow the strong to take it and feel like there is nothing they can do (and they might be right).

        But starting with um… the beginning of recorded history people have been fight and killing over the land and resources of the middle east. Some stability came from the colony powers creating new countries and financially supporting their “leaders”. But the recent turmoil all comes from the vacuum of power that we help to create over there.

        So yes at some if we stop our meddiling things will calm down and then we can start to have a relationship with rightful leader, however the people of that region “choose” them.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Mullah Woggie: Recruits, Allah blesses you. You’ve completed your basic training (insert mindless response: oorah, hooyah, hooah) and must now make a personal decision on your own. Do you desire to become a human time bomb in the infidel lands? Or will you choose to become a Malaysian Airlines pilot? With the Prophet’s peace upon you, select your course wisely.

    Hmm.. decisions, decisions.

  • creaker

    So how many have gone off to the middle east to join the other side against ISIS, either for family or religion or country or profit? We don’t hear about that, even though some of ISIS’s enemies we would hardly call friends.

  • ian berry

    You cant be seriously alarmed by some random people posting crazy rants on youtube- have you read a comment section on any website? No reason to spend the money to fight trolls.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Maybe IS is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Silly Buggers division of the combined US intel and defense departments. Wouldn’t be the first time the John McCaniacs of America have tried to drive the mindless* into Jihad around the world. Vengeance is the key to victory!

    * i.e., you and me.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Hey, American. Stop bleeding into the falafel.
    –Your Gracious IS host

    May Allah keep you safely in a cargo pocket of his explosive belt.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    So.. not many atheists join Islamic nutters. Is that what the guest is saying?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    IS should change their name to the Holy Roman Empire. It wasn’t any of those things, either.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    Congressman Mike Rogers is the apparent new tough guy on the block!
    He’s that type!
    He’s on these talk shows on a weekly basis acting as if he is always more concerned than anyone else!

    He has the whole ‘tough guy’ persona down to details: hunched over, hands-clasped, furrowed brow, ominous language, and leaving Bergdahl to the Taliban, etc.

    He’s the apparent new Cheney – clearly pushing for Wars that he and his own kids (if any) will NOT fight, while sending everyone else’s kids out to these Wars!

  • Radical___Moderate

    What does the guest mean that this is not an Islam problem? That it is not a cultural problem? The truth is that Islam is the largest part of that culture all rooted in a very warring bedouin/Arab culture in that region for millennia.

    The chain reaction potential in what had been happening over there this year is now so great that I would say the odds are now in favor of WW III breaking out by no later than 2020. Good Luck with all that! God have mercy on us all!

  • Ala Moana

    What an unbelievable collections of clowns! Who are these “experts” who are saying that ISIL (which is the correct name . Liberals just not comfortable with word Levant, which they are trying to substitute in our vocabulary with the name “Palestine”) has nothing to do with Islam! It has EVERYTHING to do with Islam. It screams it! It carries all the signs and behavior pattern of it’s followers. How blind and naive you should be to not seeing it?

    • Jill122

      It doesn’t make any sense to tar the entire religion with a group of radicals. Do you paint all Christians with the brush of Westboro Church?

      This is more nuanced than you are prepared to admit. Or perhaps like Bush you have no idea that the Muslims are not all one. That wouldn’t explain Assad v ISIS(Syria). It doesn’t explain PLO v Hamas. It clearly doesn’t explain the Muslim Brotherhood v the rest of Egypt.

      Islam is a peaceful religion. It’s adherents are great people. Jihad has nothing to do with the west or infidels.

      BTW, Obama is the person who introduced many in the US to ISIL. And he explained it to anyone who actually listened.

      • Radical___Moderate

        Undoubtedly there are peaceful Muslims. No one disputes that. However, look at the very founding of Islam. It was completely rooted in the themes of politics, militarism, and empire building. Today, look at every country where Islam is predominate. Compare how democratic, representative, fair to women and minorities, and generally free they are to western countries where Islam is not dominant. Wherever Islam has been allowed to expand its presence, freedom and liberty have waned proportionately. Just ask the Netherlands, France, and Britain.

        I think we should recognize here in the U.S. that the greater presence and political power Muslims get here, that we will see more and more of the true reality of the so-called “peaceful” Muslims as they fall in line with their overlords.

        • Jill122

          Please read more. Your opinions are interesting; your facts are sparse if not missing completely.

          • Radical___Moderate

            Jill, I am professional historian and have surely read more on this topic than you or 80% of Americans. If you would like a list of facts, I would fill far more space than this little forum could fit given its propensity for succinctness. I stand be what I wrote. Refute the examples I gave if you can. Show me an equal list of Muslims countries that are as politically advanced and modern as the non-Muslim dominated countries of America, Britain, Germany, the Netherlands, France, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Norway, Sweden. I will stop there. Again, the countries listed, many of them, are now having more and more problems due to an increase in Muslims in their respective countries. I do not write from hatred or ignorance, I write from facts and my interpretation of them. History is proving me correct as we speak…..hence this very show we are each commenting on!!!

          • Jill122

            I’m shocked you’re not also receiving (channeling) messages from a higher power about how correct you are.

            “I inspected myself and found nothing wanting.” LOL! Another board, another time.

            Jane should have asked you to be one of the experts for this program.

          • Radical___Moderate

            In fact, she should have!

          • Radical___Moderate

            Your inability to respond tells me much. See how Muslims, in general, would treat an intelligent woman like you. I would not want them around my sisters, mother, or others.

          • nj_v2

            “Muslims in general”

            Translation: Muslims onto whom I can project my biases and distortions.

          • Radical___Moderate

            No sir. That old sophomoric weak trick of citing the persons use of a “generalization” for sake of brevity in a very limited forum like this, is intellectually lazy and even, forgive me, a tad juvenile. I usually dissuade such slipshod attempts within students in their freshmen year. I have a sense you really are smarter than that and can do better.

          • J__o__h__n

            Or substitute host. She is awful.

          • jimino

            What do your studies say about the fact that majority-Muslim electorates have on many occasions elected a female to the highest position in their country, which think is far more than the countries you name as more advanced?

            You seriously don’t differentiate between the self-proclaimed Islamists and the the huge numbers of people who identify themselves as Muslim?

          • Radical___Moderate

            What is so special about electing a woman over a man as a sign of enlightenment? Men can do a fine job, or a terrible job as well. Compare how many female heads of state exist right now in the Middle and Far East to how many exist in the West. But again, it does not matter to me in that I live in a part of the world (the US) where women have long broken through that “glass ceiling.”

        • brettearle

          You are singling out Islam to be intrinsically violent, at its fundamental core:

          “the very founding of Islam. It was completely rooted in the themes of politics, militarism, and empire building.”

          As if other religions, throughout history, haven’t emboldened people to do the same, as those in the name of Islam?

          • Jill122

            Not to mention the fact that isn’t just not true. The Founding of Islam is NOT rooted in the themes of politics, militarism and empire building. Just a glance over the life of Mohammed would show that none of those were a consideration.

            And yes, you’re absolutely correct that all of the crusades were a war against the infidels — Islam! And if you believe Bush, so was the war in Iraq, at least one of the many reasons offered up to spur recruitment.

          • brettearle

            Jill,

            I can’t get on board with you about your thinking with regard to Bush’s policy toward Islam.

            I did not support Bush, then; and I do not support Bush now. However….

            ….you may think that Bush’s public claims and public policies–which speak of supporting the peaceful nature of non-violent Islam–was a sham, was a smokescreen.

            Bush may have made outrageous blunders and he might have been an inadequate President.

            But I do NOT think that he was OUT TO GET all devotees of Islam.

            And I do not understand why you feel that way.

            To demonize our political adversaries is not to be ultra-extreme about it.

            There ARE nuances.

          • Radical___Moderate

            An objective comparison to the things Jesus Christ did in life do not bear out what you write when compared to the life of Mohammad. I have read on them. Without writing to much here, allow me to refer you say to George Blainey for one. Read his History of the World. It is general and digestable for non-historians. The section on Mohammad.

          • J__o__h__n

            Jesus is mostly fiction made up long after his death.

          • Radical___Moderate

            Historically untrue in the larger sense. Read, amongst other things, if you are interested, Albert Nolan and his sources.

          • brettearle

            OK, sir, go tell me that, in the distorted name of Jesus, deranged human beings didn’t kill other human beings for a radical and violent cause, thta was far away from the tenets of Chistianity.

            Please…..don’t feed me your Christian Fundamentalist BS!

          • Radical___Moderate

            You fail to distinguish between the teachings of Jesus from the gospels and those whom used His Name in “vain.” I.e. the RC Church amongst others. This was warned about in the OT and in the New in the form of the 2nd commandment.
            But, I am sure you might maintain that Muslims twisted the teachings of Mohammad too, right?? However, Jesus never chose to head up and army and attempt a worldly empire though he easily could have with the Zealots and others whom wanted Him too. Mohammad, on the other, hand led armies in his life and did try to build a political empire in his life. Who was more worldly??
            A main point is, in spite of the grossly steeped relativism of the modern popular mind, there are moral absolutes in this universe.
            I truly was once an unbeliever. And yes, I am now, and have been for years, a Christian. I searched far and wide for truth in my younger years as many do. I read and enjoyed everything from Richard Dawkins, and Hitchens to St Augustine, and Lao-tuz.etc. I have come fully believe what I truly and genuinely do and respect your right to without using profanity or personal insults in tone or otherwise.
            Would a Muslim society, as they are today, afford either of us that level of tolerance and freedom of thought my friend??

          • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

            Again, I would be careful about sweeping Christian-Muslim comparisons: as they say, the Crusaders ‘liberated the hell’ out of (Christian) Constantiople.

          • Radical___Moderate

            Generalizations are all these little forums can afford in most reality for the sake of brevity. The Crusades will always be a black hole of comparative examples for any side of this issue because of their complexities and the number of them and the different contexts and types of Crusades there were. I personally do not believe the Crusades prove much of anything about the modern age compared to what they said about issues of geo-politics, economics, trade, and social pressures of THOSE times and places. The entire epic of the CRusades occurred over two centuries. Many leaders, lands, and agendas, had changed starkly in those decades. Again, with complete respect to all on this thread, I find these kinds of comparisons of the Crusades to today by both Christians and Muslims for modern day purposes highly sophomoric. I’ve often had to dissuade students from such. Again, because every example from them seems to have an opposite and just as seemingly compelling example.

        • rayy

          So you would advocate against freedom of religion?

          • Radical___Moderate

            No sir. In fact I am for it but its is clear the Muslims are NOT often. That is the problem. How many Christians are being killed by Muslims today in the world compared to Muslims being killed by Christians in the first and second world??

        • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

          In a historian’s defense of Islam, they were a lot more careful than my indo-European forebears to preserve the Mediterranean’s libraries and centers of learning.

          A good thing too: the XXIst century would be very different if Alexandria had fallen to the Huns or Mongols.

          • Radical___Moderate

            True. But largely what they preserved were Greco-Roman works. In most instances vastly superior in their influencing the modern world for good than the works that have survived from say, the Ottoman Empire, or the Persians and others from that region. Also, the point remains if folks wish to give such credence too the past, Islam was jihadist largely since its inception in the 700s. Regardless, most of the criticisms in this thread doing the same old bash religion or bash Christianity thing are trying to look to past events to define present ones. There is a danger of presentism in this. Context matters more than broad historical generalizations. The bottom line is, look how most modern Muslim countries live compared to western predominately Christian countries. Compare levels of industrialization, modernization, health systems, education systems, and levels of toleration for women and minorities, There is no comparison really. One might cite Constantinople, but that is one city within a country that is largely becoming more and more extremist.

          • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

            I’d actually put a different way: but for Islam, Mohammed’s Arabs would be little more than another set of rapacious horse people… and we would not have encountered that Mediterranean heritage that was so important in sparking the Renaissance.

            As to the Arab’s cultural contribution: it was little more than “zero….” And the other digits. And an awful lot of applied geometry.

            As to the rise of Europe and the decline of the Mediterranean world, I’d tend to attribute the differential to Henry the Navigator and improvements in seafaring that began to diminish the Levant’s importance as a trade entrepot. I might grant some credence to Weber’s ‘Protestant Ethic,’ but even — as he noted himself — that ‘ethic’ was limited and historically contingent.

            (And, to boot, there is a strong argument that Europe’s success arose from the way the European population and geography allowed for chronic, endemic sectarian violence).

          • Radical___Moderate

            I would never contend that Middle Eastern culture and civilization had never offered anything and I didn’t. But I would say, if we look at the real greatness of the foundations of the Renaissance works, they were from the Classical Traditions of Greece and Rome, which, like J.M. Roberts tends to agree, I would not attribute really to Egypt or the Levant. Perhaps, in more liberal schools of thought such views would be classified as “euro-centric.” However, I do believe that many of the historical views of the 19th century will come back into fashion more than most might see today. Also, as for you last point, which I agree with, why has the Christian West been able to come out of their historical factionalisms and vilonence with so much more prosperity, democracy, modernity, and with being the envy of so much of the world?
            I am in minority company I know in my belief that the 19th century British views of the Arab and Bedouin cultures as unstable and still largely but not hopelessly tribal, are accurate.
            We will all see how sectarian and tribal soon I fear. I do however hope they can find a way to respect the beauty and prosperity and benefits of the Western concepts on nation-states, free-markets, representative govts,. and tolerance. My European ancestors did it, they should be able to also.
            As it stands, Israel remains the greatest bastion of hope for that region on the world scene for my money. God Bless one and all of us.

      • Ala Moana

        I don’t know on which planet do you live but in THIS world 99% of all atrocities committed in the name of religion are carried our by followers of Islam. You could keep repeating liberal mantra about Islam being a Religion of Peace but it will not change radical policies of violence, intimidation, riots, rape, xenophobia and homophobia which we observe in most Muslim population lands (even through the filter of liberal mass media) on daily basis.

        • Jill122

          Stop! That’s just silly. You’re war mongering without the benefit of information.

          • Ala Moana

            Yeah, go scream “Bush did it” for the benefits of information ))

        • rayy

          Russia’s not an Islamic state, last time I checked. But it is an aggressor.

        • Guest

          Yes, it is an aggressor. No question about it. And how exactly it relates to what I said about 99% of all atrocities committed in the name of religion are carried our by followers of Islam?

          • JAH

            you do know Hitler was christian and carried out the holocaust in the name of religion. not to mention the genocide of Indians in this country, and much of south and central America, all done in the name of god and forcing conversion to Christianity. sound familiar?

          • Antisthenes

            No, you are absolutely wrong. Hitler was not a Christian. You can easily fact check this.

          • JAH

            yes he was

          • Antisthenes

            No he was’t! Etc. Etc. Etc.

          • Ala Moana

            I wonder where did you learn history? Birzeit University? Only them offer such an alternative perspective on world history that has nothing to do with the reality. As far as Indians and Inquisition/Crusades – the problem is that all these attrocities were commited 300-500-1000 years ago, when life standards/expectancy were quite different from today, but Muslim savagery is something that we see EVERY day NOW. DO you see the difference?

        • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

          Constantinople would beg to differ.

          • Ala Moana

            Constantinople is turning into another Cairo or Beirut.. Not tomorrow, but day after that. I’ve been there and seen it.

          • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

            Well, actually, Constantinople turned into Istanbul in 1923.

            I was referring to the pillaging of Orthodox Christian Constantinople during the 4th Crusade, in 1203.

          • Ala Moana

            Yeah… you should bring Crusades/Inquisition on the table as examples of violence committed in the name of Christianity… 1000 years ago.. That is a strong case for arguing against those who oppose violent medieval Islamic behavior forcibly brought into modern Western culture by people like you. ))

            It strikes me also how you recall Constantinople pillage by Crusaders but totally omitted it brutal siege, fall and pillage at the hand of Turks.

      • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

        Mercifully the Westboro Baptists didn’t strike oil. Rockefeller was a bit of a fanatic himself, but he seems to have decided he had better things to do than ‘father’ a church.

  • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

    Hassan called in with a interesting point about Saudi Arabian ‘support’ for ISIS, which the ‘experts’ dismissed too quickly.

    They’re of course right the Saudis do not actively support ISIS or Al Quaeda. The problem may not be active state support but a more complicated set of inter family and social bargains that help to maintain stability within Saudi Arabia by exporting their surplus of hotheaded, radical, and extraneous third sons to manage madrassas

    In essence they keep their domestic situation clean and stable by exporting (externalizing) the problem ( and washing their hands).

    Of course, downstream, Muslim communities bear the brunt of this pollution, but inevitably there are overflows that impact the rest of the world.

    • Radical___Moderate

      That is an interesting insight. Thanks.

      • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

        I found the ‘expert commentators’ response interestingly ‘nuanced’ — careful to note how ‘responsible’ the Saudi State has been in cooperating against ISIS and AQ, but diplomatically silent about the larger problems in Saudi society.

        Which leads me to wonder how much the Saudis have ‘cooperated’ in the fight against terrorism by helping to fund the academic research centers focused on the problem and employing the Pundits.

    • Jill122

      That makes them no more “guilty” than any other state like France, Britain and the US.

      You’re implying that the Saudis are actively exporting them. That’s supposition of course without a shred of evidence.

      And you are completely dismissing the possibility that Muslim youth (Sunni) are unhappy where they are and wish to join an organization that promises at the very leas a new state of affairs where these young men control their own destiny.

      How different is that from the young men recruited to go to war for the United States? Speak to any of them. They are literally dripping with idealism. I’ve never met a US warrior who went there for religion, money or to kill people. They go for freedom, liberty, belief in the American Way.

      • J__o__h__n

        The US Army doesn’t recruit with beheading videos.

      • jimino

        Saudi Arabia, Qatar and The UAE are where the Wahhabis live and spread their version of what it means to be a true Muslim that so inspires these people.

      • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

        I’m not talking guilt, I’m talking social dynamics. . it’s not that the Saudis are ‘guilty’ really, it’s just that they’re “upstream” in determining the course of Islamic ideology and education.

        Sure, there are a lot of impoverished Sunni, Shi’ite, and otherwise struggling youth in the West — and in, e.g. Indonesia or Pakistan — looking to find a calling: this is one of the reasons their expatriate preachers and educators have an enthusiastic audience.

        The problem with Saudi society, by contrast, is not impoverishment but the opposite: a surfeit of money, a surfeit of leisure amongst the Saudi elite, and (perhaps as a result) a surfeit of 2nd and 3rd sons with no clear calling.

        It’s by no means an unfamiliar problem — similar problems beset various European societies at a number of times from the renaissance onward — and by no means are ‘our’ hands ‘clean:’ our willingness to pay for oil has made the ‘Arabian Gulf’ I’m not talking guilt, I’m talking social dynamics. . it’s not that the Saudis are ‘guilty’ really, it’s just that they’re “upstream” in determining the course of Islamic ideology and education.

        Sure, there are a lot of impoverished Sunni, Shi’ite, and otherwise struggling youth in the West — and in, e.g. Indonesia or Pakistan — looking to find a calling: this is one of the reasons their expatriate preachers and educators have an enthusiastic audience.

        The problem with Saudi society, by contrast, is not impoverishment but the opposite: a surfeit of money, a surfeit of leisure amongst the Saudi elite, and (perhaps as a result) a surfeit of 2nd and 3rd sons with no clear calling.

        It’s by no means an unfamiliar problem — similar problems beset various European societies at a number of times from the renaissance onward — and by no means are ‘our’ hands ‘clean:’ our willingness to pay for oil has made the ‘Arabian Gulf’ I’m not talking guilt, I’m talking social dynamics. . it’s not that the Saudis are ‘guilty’ really, it’s just that they’re “upstream” in determining the course of Islamic ideology and education.

        Sure, there are a lot of impoverished Sunni, Shi’ite, and otherwise struggling youth in the West — and in, e.g. Indonesia or Pakistan — looking to find a calling: this is one of the reasons their expatriate preachers and educators have an enthusiastic audience.

        The problem with Saudi society, by contrast, is not impoverishment but the opposite: a surfeit of money, a surfeit of leisure amongst the Saudi elite, and (perhaps as a result) a surfeit of 2nd and 3rd sons with no clear calling.

        It’s by no means an unfamiliar problem — similar problems beset various European societies at a number of times from the renaissance onward — and by no means are ‘our’ hands ‘clean

        • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

          Sorry, Disqus got wiggly about my editing.

      • http://www.blogger.com/home Carrington Ward

        I’m not talking guilt, I’m talking social dynamics. . it’s not that the Saudis are ‘guilty’ really, it’s just that they’re “upstream” in determining the course of Islamic ideology and education.

        Sure, there are a lot of impoverished Sunni, Shi’ite, and otherwise struggling youth in the West — and in, e.g. Indonesia or Pakistan — looking to find a calling: this is one of the reasons their expatriate preachers and educators have an enthusiastic audience.

        The problem with Saudi society, by contrast, is not impoverishment but the opposite: a surfeit of money, a surfeit of leisure amongst the Saudi elite, and (perhaps as a result) a surfeit of 2nd and 3rd sons with no clear calling.

        It’s by no means an unfamiliar problem — similar problems beset various European societies at a number of times from the renaissance onward — and by no means are ‘our’ hands ‘clean:’ our thirst for oil made the ‘Arabian Gulf’ what it is.

  • tbphkm33

    Good topic – if they just have some patience, not like open revolution does not stand a good chance of coming to the shores of Empire United States – as The People shake off the shackles of big corporations and big money!

    • harverdphd

      You’re incoherent.

  • Sy2502

    I am sorry, but it’s ridiculous to claim that a “sense of idealism” drives people to join a terrorist organization that beheads children, rapes and murders women, and does the most disgusting atrocities a human being can devise. MLK Jr was driven by idealism. Gandhi was driven by idealism. Mother Teresa was driven by idealism. These are morally deficient individuals who can’t unleash their disgusting murderous impulses in the civilized country they live in, and therefore go where they can do all those things with impunity. They are criminal psychopaths. Let’s keep idealism out of it.

    • hennorama

      Sy2502 — an “organization that beheads children, rapes and murders women, and does the most disgusting atrocities a human being can devise” describes most military forces since the dawn of warfare.

      How and why one joins such an organization is interesting, but the behaviors are not necessarily connected to the how and why.

      • Sy2502

        You know what ISIS wants and what methods it uses to achieve it, thanks to our modern information world. We have seen their videos, they are particularly proud of their savagery and never miss the occasion to advertise it. So knowing that, do YOU feel inclined in joining them in doing the same? Why or why not?

        • hennorama

          Sy2502 — thank you for your response.

          I’m not really much of a joiner, so no.

          Thank you for asking.

          You do realize that terror, savagery, and brutality are tactics, right? They send messages both externally and internally, in a sort of “you’re with us or against us” fashion.

          Sound familiar?

          You do also realize that the emotions stirred up if one watches “their videos … of their savagery … [which serve] to advertise it” are emotions that ISIL intends to stir, again, both within and without, right?

          These emotions serve to recruit both for and against them, if one is prone to easy manipulation.

          • Sy2502

            I don’t know you, but to give the benefit of the doubt, I suspect you are more likely to join, say, a book club than a terrorist organization that prides itself of its brutality. Because I am assuming you are a decent person. I doubt the idea of beheading children appeals to you.
            I really don’t see the difference in talking about the objectives of ISIS, as they make no difference in how despicable their actions are. It would be like saying that the Holocaust wasn’t so bad because the Nazis had an actual goal in mind. I am sure the millions who died would be thrilled to hear their death served a purpose…

          • hennorama

            SY2502 — TYFYR.

            Whether the tactics ISIL employs are despicable or not, they are being used as means to their goals.

            You wrote in your original post “it’s ridiculous to claim that a ‘sense of idealism’ drives people to join a terrorist organization …”

            You later wrote, about said terrorist organization, that

            “They are religious extremists who want to establish a caliphate under their personal version of Islam …”

            In other words, you described their goals (a caliphate) and their ideals (their personal version of Islam).

            You seem to be arguing against yourself. If others share those ideals, then it’s not “ridiculous to claim that a ‘sense of idealism’ drives people to join” ISIL.

            Regarding violent tactics in World War II, recall that the Allies terror-bombed cities in both Germany and Japan, including the use of incendiaries to create firestorms, as well as atomic weapons.

            One might call these tactics justified, but that probably depends on which side of the bombs one was on.

          • Sy2502

            Since the people in question joining ISIS are westerners, and since we are westerners ourselves, I thought it obvious that when discussing “ideals” we meant what we share as ideals, you know, peace on earth, good will, civilized society, etc. But now I guess I should have spelled it out.

            So yes if by “ideal” you mean torturing and murdering everyone you don’t like, then I guess you are an “idealist”. By Western standard you would also be a psychopath.

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 — TYFYR.

            When you put “sense of idealism” in quotes, I inferred you were quoting the blurb from the CSM, in the From The Reading List</strong, above. Please correct any misinference.

            That piece refers to a "sense of idealism about joining a possible new religious state," not to the list you've written in your comment.

            That some might not view your list as their ideals is obvious, whether they “are Westerners,” or otherwise.

            Both idealism and ideology can blind adherents to reality. Some who have or may join ISIL may be doing it out of a naive or misguided idealism, and then coming under the influence of idealogues, via slow and careful indoctrination.

            Or they may simply be principled true believers in these particular religious, ideological, and political views.

            That you don’t agree with their ideology, religion, or tactics does not mean they are not idealistic.

          • Sy2502

            As I already mentioned in an earlier post, they know by what means the Islamic state is being attempted. You can certainly be an idealistic Muslim and hope and wish that in time the non Muslim will see the light and convert to Islam and the whole world will be a unified islamic state. But there’s the small, tiny, insignificant issue of the bloody, barbaric things ISIS specifically is doing about bringing about the Muslim state. Which are, I repeat, well known in all the graphic and gory details. So wouldn’t you say that a Westerner that joins them needs to have a taste for that kind of actions? Let’s face it, ISIS is so despicable that other Islamic terrorist groups (other “idealists” to use your words) who share similar goals are distancing themselves from ISIS because they don’t want to be confused with those savages. So yes I still maintain one needs to be attracted by the butchery to join them, not just by the “ideals”.

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 — TYFYR.

            You can “maintain” whatever you like — that doesn’t make it true, or universal.

            In the referenced CSM article, multiple possible motives were discussed:

            – “a deep frustration that the West failed to respond to the strife in Syria, which has claimed more than 160,000 lives in the past three years. …

            – “Recruiters convince young people that they can join something bigger and forget their ‘little problems’ back home, such as unemployment or family turmoil ….

            – “women going to Syria … are often attracted by a form of ‘jihadi emancipation’ – the ability to travel abroad and marry whomever they please without the consent of their families. They are actively recruited because they play a fundamental role in “resurrecting the caliphate.” “With women – who marry, cook, and raise families – [the jihadists] can establish roots,” Koehler says. “There is more chance that people will stay on, not move to the next battlefield.”

            So, no it doesn’t necessarily follow that one “needs to have a taste for” or to be “attracted by the butchery” in order to join them.

            In the same way, a volunteer to the US military does not “need to have a taste for” or to be “attracted by the butchery” of killing other human beings, in order to join up.

          • Sy2502

            Thank you for addressing none of my arguments. I never maintained anything I say is the revealed divine truth, I am making an argument using inductive and deductive steps. If you have a problem with the argument you may want to address the steps, or the premises, not just hand wave it out of existence because you don’t like it.

      • harverdphd

        Right..that’s how wars are won, and ISIS knows it. That’s how we have won wars. Time to start killing until militant Islam gives up….and they will.

        • hennorama

          arverdphd — thank you for your response.

          I disagree with it in its entirety.

    • Godzilla the Intellectual

      The only thing wrong with your statement, logically speaking, is that the islamic extremists would say western armies are guilty of the same atrocities.

      In fact, this conflict has been going on since the crusades, and conflicts involving the Jews have been going on for much longer, obviously.

      The point is, the meaning of the word “idealism” is expressed in what one believes to be a noble pursuit. You have stated your ideals quite clearly.

      I may believe the rightful leaders of the Muslim community are the Sufis, lovers of peace and of poetry, but my opinion means very little to those who have different “ideals”.

      • Sy2502

        Your post would make sense if ISIS took its fight to “western armies” which are “guilty of the same atrocities”. Instead they go after women and children who did them no wrong. And the reason they go after them isn’t because these people are complicit in any kind of atrocity but rather, get this, because they follow a different flavor of Islam. I am sorry, but do you actually know what ISIS is, and what they fight for? They aren’t freedom fighters, they aren’t trying to right some real or perceived wrong. They are religious extremists who want to establish a caliphate under their personal version of Islam, and they want to achieve that by killing everyone who doesn’t share said version of Islam.

        • Godzilla the Intellectual

          My argument makes FLAWLESS sense. I think you need an education in logic. First, my argument was that idealism, (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder. Thus, in no way whatsoever would the “Islamic State Extremists” taking its fight to “western armies” support or refute my argument. In fact, how can you claim to know what someone ought to do based on THEIR OWN ideals??? You are putting YOUR IDEALS on the situation and judging their behavior based that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you doing that. But we already established they have different ideals than you, so for you to claim my argument is wrong because the ideals of ISIS are wrong because they are not YOUR ideals, makes no sense…
          I suspect you don’t even know what you are talking about and you are just pissed off. Well, fine… But don’t try to have an intelligent debate with me unless you are willing to actually show up… Your banal non-argument only serves to make you look ridiculous. And honestly, I don’t have time for stupidity.

          Honestly, you ARE stupid.

          • Sy2502

            You claimed ISIS are fighting the west. They are not. Educate yourself.
            “True wisdom is knowing what you don’t know”, so please consider your own intelligence (or lack thereof) before speaking of other people’s.

          • Godzilla the Intellectual

            They are fighting anyone who is not a jihadist. Educate YOURSELF.

            Communicating with you feels like communicating with my cat. He is aloof. But his walnut sized brain can’t do higher reasoning.

          • Sy2502

            I suggest you see a doctor. Foaming at the mouth is a sign of severe health problems.

          • Godzilla the Intellectual

            Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of an internet forum. In which case allow me to explain – the contributors, posters and commenters are decentralized, in other words – if you are truly seeing someone who is foaming at the mouth, it couldn’t possibly be me. In which case it is either (A) a Hallucination, in which case YOU should probably see a doctor IMMEDIATELY or (B) Just a random sick person, in which case you may want to call 911. Although your comment was 7 hours ago, so their illness has either progressed or subsided at this point. If you are insinuating a ridiculous metaphor, you would be better served by ramming something massive up your own anus. It might give you an attitude adjustment.

          • Sy2502

            I have reported your offensive posts to the mods. If you don’t know how to relate to other human beings in a civilized manner, you should stay away from Internet forums and deal with your psychological issues on your own time.

          • Godzilla the Intellectual

            I would recommend you start with the man in the mirror. But you are such a cheese doodle I doubt you are capable of overcoming your own narcissistic, whiny impulse.

            I ALWAYS extend civil and polite discourse, right up until someone shows themselves to be a cheese doodle. Then I shred their egos.

            See, you have ignored the beginning of the conversation, wherein I was exceedingly polite.

            Because of your narcissism you are unable to see anything outside of your own ego.

            Why can’t you just admit when you’ve wrong???

            Alas, I will NEVER be banned from this forum because I am the ONLY one here who speaks truth.

  • Andrew Page

    America has always suffered from a fraction of the population being malcontents and traitors. Benedict Arnold, Little Eddie Snowden, prior to Dec7 1941 there were active members of the American Nazi Bundt. During the cold war every couple of years or so you’d hear about someone whining that he was tired of being harassed by the FBI and other three-letter agencies and defecting to the Soviet Union or Cuba amidst an undeserved amount of media drama while the rest of population said, “B-Bye! Have a nice time! Don’t let the door hit you in the a– on you’re way out.” Several of them ended up returning a decade later with their tails between their legs(I’m starting a betting pool on when Little Eddie Snowden returns… better hurry, the 3-4 year slots are filling up fast!) .

  • warryer

    You might be on to something if in the 34th century there is a Scientology crusade.

  • harverdphd

    The allure of ISIS will wane as we kill them and their kin.

  • harverdphd

    Time to turn this over to the generals to pursue victory.

  • http://freeourfreemarkets.org/ Steve Banicki

    It is obvious to anyone paying attention that the basic premiss of democracy, every man has one vote is no longer true. The Koch brothers have more one votes than you or I.

    • HonestDebate1

      No they don’t. They have no power over me at all.

  • twntrs

    NPR continues to whitewash the role of Islam as a leading component in the ISIS phenomenon. The Koran is infested with verses urging deadly savagery upon “infidels” and “un-believers”.

    The Mainstream media continues to blithely pretend that this has nothing to do with the conduct of the “radicals”. It is held hostage by the paralyzing political correctness which holds that religion is always to be exempt from any criticism whether it foments hate of LGBT persons, the repression of women or the persecution and murder of non-believers.

  • Ben W

    I disagree with the guest’s statement that the rise of ISIS is not related to Israel. Israel is definitely indirectly responsible for this situation. Almost everything that happens in the Middle East can be traced back to Arab people’s disillusionment with Israel’s 30..40..50… year apartheid against Palestinians. As long as the US continues to blindly support and finance Israel’s apartheid system, Middle Eastern discontent will continue.

    The thing that disturbs me is that even though we put so much importance in the doctrine of separation of Church and State, we don’t seem to see any hypocrisy in our support of Israel’s one religion state (or Saudi Arabia’s, for that matter). We should back out completely and let Israel work its relations out without our support.

    • Jacob Arnon

      Ben W is feeding us the standard anti Israel Jew hating line: “it’s all the fault of the Jews.”

      There have been and there are many conflicts around the globe between Muslims and non Muslim populations and only an ignorant Jew hater like Ben would concentrate on the Jews.

      For example: in the recent past we had the the Turkish-Greek wars in which tens of thousands of people had been killed and millions became refugees. There is still the problem with Cyprus were the conflict is only contained not resolved.

      Then there the Pakistan/Hindu ears which left millions dead and homeless.

      These conflicts make the Arab Israeli conflict look like a skirmish.

      Then you have the minor conflicts in The Philippines in China, in Africa and elsewhere.

      Let’s not forget about the conflict between secular regimes in Muslims countries like Algeria, Egypt, Tunisia, etc. These too inflame religious passions.

      Finally there is the nagging conflicts between Sunnis and Shiites which often turn into shooting wars as we have recently seen in the Iranian/Iraqi conflict of the 1980′s. (There were millions of casualties.)

      The Arab Israeli conflict in contrast looks like a cake walk. less then a hundred thousand casualties since 1947.

      There have more people than that killed in the Syrian civil war between Sunnis and Alawites (Shiites).

      In the Algerian civil war of the 1990′s there were more than a hundred thousand people killed.

      To blame all the wars in Islam on Jews is like blaming all the ills of the world on Jews: this is what Jew-haters like Ben W do.

      • Ben W

        The unfortunate thing about our post Holocaust times is that nobody can say anything against Israel without being labeled a Jew hater. I have many Jewish friends and I have nothing against Jews. But I do have an issue with religious states. I believe we should be consistent in our belief in separation of church and state in relation to ourselves and our allies.

        • Jacob Arnon

          The unfortunate thing about the Holocaust is that mullions of Jews and Gypsies were murdered for no other reason than they were Jews or Gypsies.

          I don’t care about your Jewish friends or Muslim friends. Maybe you are right, maybe you are not a Jew-hater, but if you are going to post about the causes of Islamic terrorism, please learn its history and the history of Islam.

          To accuse a country of six million people, the only country with an elected Prime Minister and Parliament, the only country with a secular judiciary, that has on its board Arab Muslim members. (The judge who sentenced the former President of the country to jail for raping a female was an Arab Judge— show me another country in the midEast where a judge from a minority religion sentences a a country’s President to jail for raple? In how many countries in the world did such a thing occur?)

          I am not religious and I have my criticisms of all countries including Israel.

          However there is a lot that is right in Israel and those ready to criticize her should make a note of it.

          Judaism, btw: is not just a religion. It’s also a culture with a secular tradition that goes back for more than a millennia. A culture that I am very proud of.

          In the 1070′s many Arabs used to say that the problem with Israel was that it was too secular now people in the West say that it’s too religious.

          No matter what, Jews can’t win.

    • Geheran1958

      Ben, isn’t it funny how people can accuse Israel of being an apartheid state when Muslim Arabs are resident citizens, free to practice their religion, serve in the Knesset and Supreme Court. Ditto Christians. Name one Arab country that allows Jews, Christians or any non- believers such access or freedom…….thought so. Maybe Prof. Samuel Huntington got it right in his epic work, “Clash of Civilizations”, wherein he concluded: “The underlying problem is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilization whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture”. Or perhaps Kemal Ataturk, founder of modern Turkey, who observed: “This is Islam, an absurd ideology of an immoral Bedouin, a rotting corpse that poisons our lives”. That about sums it up.

    • brucehall

      It would seem the Arabs in the Middle East are guilty of apartheid since they want to isolate and destroy Israel rather than welcome Jews into their midst. Oh, don’t go on about Jews living in peace in Arab lands; they lived as second-rate citizens and most have left.

  • http://synapse9.com/signals Jessie Henshaw

    Wow, strange comments tonight. I think if you look close there’s a pattern, that not just these somewhat desperate reaches for words that make emotional sense from the callers… but the more calm assessments of the pundits too.

    Aren’t we looking at a problem of trying to treat the words that come to mind as reality, having somehow lost our grip on what we’re talking about… and finding ourselves unable to tell what’s real in the abnormal circumstance we’re in?

    Learning to tell what’s real when you’ve lost track is a matter of acknowledging things we’ve casually dismissed, and looking all around.

    • Jacob Arnon

      What are you talking about, Jessie?

      • http://synapse9.com/signals Jessie Henshaw

        Well, here it was the contrast between attempts at decisive statements and confused discussion generally. I think there seem to be growing zones of civilization breakdown, that might be more meaningful to discuss, caused by the ever growing economic inequity and resource depletion around the world.

        I’ve also studied how people are blinded by their socially agreed beliefs, leading to the formation of “silos” of reality that because they are self-defined can’t change in response to a changing world. Take the social belief that “steady growth” makes a “steady economy” when it is physiologically an exploding economy, reorganizing itself at ever faster rates as it consumes the world around it.

        Maybe the most interesting one is how consciousness presents itself to us, the world we see in heads appearing as the world everyone else lives in. In fact for that world, we ourselves are the only occupant! ;-)

        • Jacob Arnon

          “Maybe the most interesting one is how consciousness presents itself to us, the world we see in heads appearing as the world everyone else lives in. In fact for that world, we ourselves are the only occupant! ;-)”

          These are pathological people joining up to murder and you talk about consciousness.

          Some people are too clever by half.

          • http://synapse9.com/signals Jessie Henshaw

            Well sure, talking about false consciousness. It’s impossible to understand it in others but in relation to one’s own. That’s why I gave the sampling of extreme examples our own culture spreads and is commonly guilty of…

  • Kate M. Johnson

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  • Ala Moana

    I am amused at somebody like you, who is I bet not even a Muslim but speaks with such a devotion about some “true Muslims”, who are the “true followers” of Islam as opposed to all these guys who murder infidels in the name of their “peaceful religion”. Duhh.

  • Bermondsey

    I haven’t yet listened to the podcast, but discussions about this have been all over the place for a while here in London. I’ve been wondering how the sentiments in this current situation are different than say Hemingway in the Spanish Civil War or Lafayette in the American Revolution.

    On another point, I can also attest to cruel racism by white Britons which might be fuelling some of this.

    • Bermondsey

      just listened. I really wish Jane would keep the guests and callers on track. Honestly I haven’t been all that impressed with any of the guest hosts.

  • Julia Brown

    ­­­­­­­­­­­­my&nbspbest&nbspfriend’s&nbspsister-in-law&nbsp­­­­Μ­­­­а­­­­κ­­­­℮­­­­ѕ­­­­&nbsp­­­­­­­­$­­­­­­­­60&nbsp­&nbsp/h­­­r&nbspon&nbspthe&nbsp­­­­і­­­­ո­­­­τ­­­­℮­­­­r­­­­ո­­­­℮­­­­τ­­­­.&nbspShe&nbsphas&nbspbeen&nbspwithout&nbspa&nbsp­­­­ј­­­­օ­­­­ƅ­­­­&nbspfor&nbspseven&nbsp­­­­Μ­­­­օ­­­­ո­­­­τ­­­­հ­­­­ѕ­­­­&nbspbut&nbsplast&nbsp­­­­Μ­­­­օ­­­­ո­­­­τ­­­­հ­­­­&nbspher&nbspincome&nbspwas&nbsp­­­­­­­­$­­­­­­­­13048&nbspjust&nbsp­­­­W­­­­օ­­­­r­­­­κi­­­­ng­­­­&nbspon&nbspthe&nbsp­­­­і­­­­ո­­­­τ­­­­℮­­­­r­­­­ո­­­­℮­­­­τ­­­­&nbspfor&nbspa&nbsp­­­­Ϝ­­­­℮­­­­W­­­­&nbsp­­­­հ­­­­օ­­­­υ­­­­r­­­­s­­­­.&nbspRead&nbspmore&nbspհ­­­­­­℮­­­­­­r­­­­­­℮,..&nbsphtt&#x70://CashConvertrate&#x32&#48&#x31&#52linesJ9TWq0L…

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  • Ala Moana

    Do you see a lot of black people lynched these days? You are kinda slow – I would have expected you pulling “Inquisition/Crusades” cards by now – to say that “Christianity is violent too” )

  • Geheran1958

    You may be ugly and smart but you lack even a hint of credibility. To imply Israel is responsible for creating Hamas when just about every objective nine year old who can read will confirm that the Muslim Brotherhood established Hamas for one reason and one reason only: the annihilation of Israel and eradication of the Jewish people from the ME. Or did you forget to include the MB as another Israeli invention which would make nine year old supporters of Hassan Al-Banna and Sayyid Qutb very unhappy.

  • Geheran1958

    Western converts to Islam join the likes of ISIS for the same fundamental reason as jihadists: they “misunderstand” the explicit command in the Qur’an and other Islamic texts that say it is a religious obligation of every able-bodied adult Muslim male to wage jihad. Yes, no doubt some sign up for the adventure, etc., but its almost inconceivable that these types would commit the brutal killings so pervasive in jihadism driven organizations.

  • FrankensteinDragon

    I believe a word of corporate media. ISIS like Alqueda was created–at least parlty–by the USA. There is a hawkish element in the government–like those that brought you the war on terror–who just want to sell guns and bombs–both demo and rep. Its also a good way to ‘justify’ spying on all americans and killing all americans without trial of law–to persecute peace activists, protesters. If there is a movement it is probably so small and weak as to be insignificant but the USA promotes it and supports it. THE FBI has a long history of creating fake terrorism to create terrorism to sustain the war on terror and job security. The war department in the usa is the US economy. Job security.

  • brucehall

    99.9% of the “joiners” are Muslims who left Muslim countries or their parents did so because those countries were far less attractive than the western nations. So the irony is that these joiners are trying to reproduce the lousy situation that they or their families left behind because it was so bad. Faith, obviously, doesn’t have to be rational. Oh, let’s say it. Muslim joiners are completely irrational.

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