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Week In The News: Israel-Gaza Escalates, Congressional Recess, Russian Sanctions

Israel-Gaza conflict heats up. The House votes to sue Obama. Ebola spreads in Africa.

A close up of newspaper front pages focusing on the Ebola outbreak, including a newspaper, left, reading 'Burn all bodies' in the city of Monrovia, Liberia, Thursday, July 31, 2014. The worst recorded Ebola outbreak in history surpassed 700 deaths in West Africa. (AP)

A close up of newspaper front pages focusing on the Ebola outbreak, including a newspaper, left, reading ‘Burn all bodies’ in the city of Monrovia, Liberia, Thursday, July 31, 2014. The worst recorded Ebola outbreak in history surpassed 700 deaths in West Africa. (AP)

A ceasefire that has not lasted in Gaza this week, and news on many fronts.  In Washington, where the CIA has admitted spying on its Senate Intelligence Committee overseers.  And where Congress is breaking for recess with no solution to the crisis of kids stacked up at the border.  In West Africa, where Ebola hits a record outbreak, with one patient headed to Atlanta.  With Russia, and new sanctions.  California and more water woes.  Wall Street, with a big swoon and all eyes on the US economy.  This hour On Point:  Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Bryan Monroe, Washington editor for opinion at CNN. (@BryanMonroeCNN)

Ron Mott, correspondent for NBC News. (@RonMott)

Ann Simons, video journalist at the Los Angeles Times. (@AMSimmons1)

From Tom’s Reading List

Washington Post: House clears way for lawsuit against Obama — “House Republicans voted to proceed with a lawsuit against President Obama on Wednesday, saying that his executive actions are so extreme that they violate the Constitution. The nearly party-line vote — all Democrats voted against it, and all but five Republicans voted for it — further agitated an already polarized climate on Capitol Hill as both parties used the pending suit to try to rally support ahead of the November elections.”

The Wall Street Journal: Europe, U.S. Significantly Expand Sanctions Against Russian Economy –The trade and investment restrictions that EU governments, after much agonizing, agreed upon mark a major escalation of sanctions against Russia, which so far have been mostly token measures targeting individuals. New measures hitting Russia’s banks, oil industry and military could increase financial strains in its already sluggish economy while withholding technology that the nation’s modernization relies on.”

 BBC News: Why Ebola is so dangerous — “From Nzerekore, a remote area of south-eastern Guinea, the virus has spread to the capital, Conakry, and neighbouring Liberia and Sierra Leone. A man who flew from Liberia to Lagos in July was quarantined on his arrival and later died of Ebola – the first case in Nigeria.”

Our Guests From A Special NABJ Edition Of Week In the News

CNN's Bryan Monroe, the Los Angeles Times' Ann Simmons and NBC News' Ron Mott in the WBUR studios. (Robin Lubbock / WBUR)

CNN’s Bryan Monroe, the Los Angeles Times’ Ann Simmons and NBC News’ Ron Mott in the WBUR studios. (Robin Lubbock / WBUR)

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  • SteveTheTeacher

    Thankfully, there is a ceasefire in the Israeli/Gaza conflict. I sincerely hope that this 72 hour ceasefire leads to a longer term truce. In time, I believe, movement toward a long term resolution to the conflict can be brought about through support of Israeli/Palestinian collaborative projects and support for the efforts of Israelis and Palestinians working together for a just and peaceful path forward.

    • Don_B1

      Unfortunately, your post was probably already out-of-date when you posted it. This is a true tragedy for all sides.

      Watch the rant of Joe Scarborough against the Israeli actions in the truce breakup on this morning’s Morning Joe

      • SteveTheTeacher

        Horrifying.

        Behavior such as the atrocities in this conflict, particularly against children, reflects poorly on human beings as a species.

      • TFRX

        I don’t trust Joe Scarborough.

        I mean “I don’t trust” to the extent that I wouldn’t trust him to pack my dad’s parachute.

        So, actual study question: If Joltless Joe is ranting agin something, does that make it good?

        • Don_B1

          He’e calling the Israeli actions in Gaza stupid and counterproductive, which, for once (and probably only once) he has correct. And for anyone trying to stand up against the torrent of unreflective support for anything and everything that Israel does, that is good. I strongly support Israel’s “right to exist,” but not at any and all costs. The support statements get real glib in these situations.

          Otherwise, I have trouble listening to his rants, also.

  • Fiscally_Responsible

    Argentina…socialism at its best. And the place where we are ending up with the Democrats in charge, and where Bernie Sanders would take us with his “I never met a social program that I didn’t like” approach to governmental spending and support of out of control unions.

    • GWelch

      “I have also read in the past day or so that some rich Republican hedge fund guy is to blame for pushing Argentina into default.”

      Only in the loosest interpretation. If I understand correctly, Argentina offered to repay a percentage of their debt, and Singer’s hedge fund held out for the full amount. A court ruled that if one bond holder is to be paid in full, then all bond holders are entitled to full payment. Argentina is refusing to pay its full amount. So he is being blamed by Argentina, but I don’t know that he is to blame.

      • Fiscally_Responsible

        Why shouldn’t Argentina be required to pay the full amount? That is what they committed to when they sold the bonds and took on the debt in the first place.

    • Don_B1

      Note that Canada avoided much of the 2008 financial crisis because it has MUCH STRONGER REGULATION of its banks.

      Argentina got in deep trouble the last time because it tied it currency, the peso, to the U.S. dollar. The result was that when it borrowed from abroad, even when repayment was in pesos, it was effectively borrowing in another, not its, currency. This turned out for the Argentinians, just like the Spanish, Italians, Portuguese, etc. borrowing in euros, to not be a good thing as the local currency deflated with respect to the debt currency, the debt became larger and harder to pay off.

      I have not followed the details of the latest debacle, but I have been aware that economists (and not just “conservative” ones) have been warning about Ms Kirchner’s growing fiscal problems and her head-in-the-sand responses for some time.

      It would appear that Mr.Singer has known of the problem for some time also, and his brinksmanship is a known part of the way he operates.

      Without more detail, it looks to me as if the actual bankruptcy occurring on this date is a joint affair, but it could not have happened without Ms. Kirchner’s actions.

      • Ray in VT

        Nah. Just blame unions.

      • Fiscally_Responsible

        I’m fine with more regulation of banks and other financial institutions. They had their chance to operate their way, and continually get into trouble, dragging all of us down with them without the decision makers at the banks being punished.

      • Arkuy The Great

        They also did not enforce certain laws that by definition put banks at greater systemic risk and then refuse to fix that problem before the inevitable crash became…inevitable.

        • John Cedar

          Absolutely correct.
          To say, “Canada has stronger regulation”, needs to quantified. It is a safe bet that the USA has more laws and more employees and more different authorities, regulating banks than Canada does. We simply don’t enforce the regulations or enforce them improperly.

          And guys like Obama sue the banks to force them to give out loans that contradict sensible banking regulations and sensible interpretations of other laws too.

    • Arkuy The Great

      To be fair, Canada was in pretty much the same fix 25 years ago. However, they did not try to wall themselves off from the world in response but, rather, worked hard to “clean house”. Both Liberals and Conservatives were of like mind on the matter, differing on style and details more than substance.

  • Fiscally_Responsible

    I certainly do not condone the CIA spying on the senate aids/etc. But I wish that the Democrats who are so upset with the CIA would be equally upset over the partisan emails/comments by Lois Lerner and the targeting of conservative groups by the IRA attempting to revoke their tax-exempt status.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      False equivalence.

    • TFRX

      Really, get a little food (and caffeine, perhaps) in your system and try again.

  • Ed75

    A few years ago we read the Book of Revelation in a Bible study, very complex and rich. At one point the people who are praising God begin to sing the song of Moses, and I wondered why it was there. Now it seems to make sense: the plagues in the Book of Revelation are parallel to the plagues in Exodus, those who are delivered by God (his Church and those of good will) are delivered from these plagues, which now afflict not only the Egyptians but all humanity (which refuses to repent of their evils), so the Song of Moses, sung by the Israelites after they watched the Egyptian force perish in the sea, is perfect.

    • J__o__h__n

      Why is the nonsense being posted for week in the news?

      • Ed75

        With Ebola and the terrible conflicts going on, it reminded me of the plagues described in Revelation.

    • JS

      Was this before or after the Israelites slaughtered every man woman and child in order to take over their land and settle it?

      • Ed75

        I don’t think that’s quite what happened.

        • JS

          Probably not, but it is what the bible says. God did command them to destroy them without mercy (so kind and loving, that God)

          • Ed75

            I thought you were referring to Israel taking over the area by UN mandate in 1948, you were talking about Biblical times. That would require more explanation, going back to Cain (Canaanites) and the peoples living in that region, etc.

          • JS

            Right, the so called “promised land” had a small problem with it: someone was already there. No problem, God just commanded the Israelites to slaughter all those people in their way. How just.

            As to modern times, British colonialism combined with Jewish Zionism and Zionist terrorism worked to create a “Jewish” state with no regard to what the people who already lived there wanted.

          • Ed75

            About Israel, there was no state there in 1948. And after what happened to the Jewish people in WWII it was the thing to do, and fulfilled the Biblical giving of this land to the Jewish people.
            About the Canaanites, that’s a fascinating question, having to do with Cain and the sons of Noah, the Providence and Will of God, and the moral depravity of the peoples who lived in that area and who could have served the Israelites and learned of God, for a few introductory thoughts.

          • JS

            “The thing to do” was to impose a state and a religion on a people that didn’t want it, that did nothing wrong?

            I thought God was supposed to give some land to the Jewish people. Where in the Bible does it say the UN?

            Yeah, all those wicked little Canaanite babies that needed to be slaughtered. Nasty little creatures I guess, daring to use their free will and all.

            Ever think of this: the bible was written by the Jews, states that the Jews are the chosen people, and says the Jews are entitled to certain land … kinda suspicious, no?

          • Ed75

            I have to read more about this time, but I would think that the Canaanite people were intended to serve the Hebrew nation, and they did in that they set up a place for them to live, in this fallen world things don’t work out too well.
            It seems that you identify wickedness with use of one’s free will, that’s not really right. We have free will, and we are meant to use it, but we are meant to use it correctly, to choose the good, not to choose irrationality and rebellion and evil. It’s how we use our free will that makes us good or evil.
            Every nation wrote it’s history, its view of how the world began, etc. But the Jewish people were living with God, so when they wrote theirs God inspired it, so what they wrote was true – for them, and for the whole world. The question isn’t about the Jewish people writing the Bible, it’s whether the Bible is inspired by God and true, I would argue that it is (along with the Church and tradition).

          • JS

            “things don’t work out too well” – could that be because the Israelites were told by God to destroy these people?

            “things don’t work out too well” – that’s a nice euphemism for the slaughter of men, women, and little babies. It’s horrible when it’s abortion, but when it’s Israel it’s “things don’t work out too well”?

            The Jewish people said they were living with God in the book they wrote, just like many cultures are living with God in the book they wrote.

            I don’t identify wickedness with use of one’s free will. (more interpretation favorable to your view?) I see people using their free will (not believing in God) and then being called wicked for it.

          • Ed75

            Going backwards, I think the phrase ‘believe in God’ is misunderstood to mean ‘acknowledge’. It has a much deeper meaning: ‘living with and being guided by’. It even has spousal connotations. But in Matthew’s vision of the Final Judgment the just say to God ‘When did we see you?’, they didn’t know God, but acted morally.
            We do have free will though to reject God’s friendship, that’s a dangerous thing to do, since God’s friendship is our happiness.

          • Ed75

            If one chooses not to believe in God, that’s not wicked, perhaps one hasn’t seen God yet. One is wicked if one does evil things.
            It’s true that other peoples wrote ‘with the gods’, etc., but ‘Has he dealt thus with any other nation’ asks the Psalmist of the Jewish people, and the answer is no. In God’s economy (plan) of salvation the Jewish people obviously played a central role.

          • Ed75

            God didn’t intent for the Jewish people to destroy the people of what is now Palestine – Abraham had been there and before they went to Egypt and God had promised this land to him and to his descendants.
            When Israel came out of Egypt the nations in Palestine were terrified of them because they heard how God had led them out of Egypt. And if Israel had gone directly there, these nations would have served them, and I can only think that this was God’s plan.
            But the Israelites didn’t trust God, so he led them in the desert for 40 years until that generation had died off, but by then the nations of Palestine had forgotten what happened in Egypt, so the Israelites had to fight them. But they didn’t displace them, they lived alongside them, and adopted, sadly, some of their practices …

          • Ed75

            Oh, I was referring to the forming of Israel in 1947 or so, there really wasn’t a state there at the time, but you are referring to the Israelites entering the promised land. You might be referring to Saul and his failure to destroy everything that belonged to the enemy camp, which cost Saul his kingship, and soon his life. These people were enemies of God, and God didn’t want their practices to be adopted or to affect the Israelites, who later adopted some of their practices anyway. (God is God of life and of death, he gave us life and can take it when he wills.)

  • HonestDebate1

    “From the unprecedented hacking of congressional staff computers and continued leaks undermining the Senate Intelligence Committee’s investigation of the CIA’s detention and interrogation program to his abject failure to acknowledge any wrongdoing by the agency, I have lost confidence in John Brennan,”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/cia-john-brennan-mark-udall_n_5638585.html

    • Ray in VT

      Typical right wing trolling/Obama hating. Which Republican Senator came out with the partisan attack? — parody of the supposed defend Obama at any cost libruls which live in the minds of some.

      I did not see that particular quote in the article that was linked to.

      • HonestDebate1

        What on earth are you talking about? It’s only the left-wingnuts, as evidenced by many of the commenters here, who will defend Obama at all cost. Some in Congress actually get it. Diane Feinstein is another.

        • Ray in VT

          Oh, that’s right. Not believing every whacked out right wing conspiracy theory and lie told by the TOP about Obama is defending him at all costs. Yet another warped view from the lunatic fringe.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          You all are saying I’m wrong – so I must be right?!

          • TFRX

            HD is not called “the anti Pole-star” for nothing.

          • JS

            Stop making it about him and telling him what he thinks! Waaa

      • hennorama

        Ray in VT — it was Sen. Mark Udall (D-CO).

        But of course, at this point, one expects no clear sourcing and attribution out of [Debates?NotHe].

        See:
        http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/31/336855226/cia-chief-apologizes-sens-feinstein-chambliss-over-computer-intrusion (last graf)

        • Ray in VT

          I figured. I saw stories about his critical take early on this morning.

          • HonestDebate1

            From now on should I just omit the link? If you are going to imply I’m hiding something that I clearly posted then why should I even bother?

          • Ray in VT

            I find it interesting how you chose to omit the name of the speaker. That is all.

        • HonestDebate1

          I gave a link. Even poor ol’ Ray got it. Of course it was Udall. Here is the headline:

          “Sen. Mark Udall Calls For CIA Director John Brennan To Resign”

          How did you miss it? You’re slipping.

  • John Cedar

    Corrupt Cuomo is safe so far, from having his witness tampering mentioned on CNN.
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/guess-how-many-times-chris-cuomo-and-cnn-have-mentioned-his-brothers-ethics-scandal/

    • StilllHere

      It is incredible that this story is being ignored by NPR and most media.

      • hennorama

        StilllHere — indeed.

        “It is incredible that this story is being ignored by NPR,” just not in the way that you mean.

        It is literally not credible to write “that this story is being ignored by NPR.”

        Unless “being ignored by” = “reporting on,” of course.

        From “it’s all politics POLITICAL NEWS FROM NPR,” this headline was posted July 31, 2014 4:15 PM ET:

        With Prosecutors Circling, Ethics Questions Get Serious For N.Y. Governor

        See:
        http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2014/07/31/336905900/with-prosecutors-circling-ethics-questions-get-serious-for-n-y-governor

        • Don_B1

          And, not that the trolls would see it, but the story has been all over the place (just about every hour, maybe) on MSNBC from what I have observed.

  • Ray in VT

    So, initial 2nd quarter GDP comes in at 4.0% growth, with 1st quarter being revised up to a 2.1% decline, and the July jobs report shows another 209,000 private sector non farm jobs added to the economy. Should that number hold up during the 2 revisions to follow, then that would make the current run of more than 200,000 jobs per month added I think the longest since 1997. Who wants to tell me that the sky is falling today? Surely this is awful.

    • HonestDebate1

      It amazes me how easily you guys can be manipulated into believing, and then parroting, these numbers are good news.

      In June you were told to spread the word that the 288K jobs added number was good news. You dutifully comply without ever noticing they were ALL part time jobs; that we lost 523K full-time jobs. Thats awful.

      And then let’s assume the 4% GDP number holds up and further that it isn’t pitifully inadequate at best (we need 7-9% sustained GDP to have any hope). What are they crediting it to? Auto sales. And why are those numbers up? Because banks are lending to those who can’t make the payments and then binding the loans and selling them. Sound familiar? It’s a mirage and you are falling of it. This is awful.

      • Steve__T

        Everything amazes you.and everything is awful.

        • HonestDebate1

          Are you encouraged by the mirage?

      • Ray in VT

        It never ceases to amaze me how good news can be shat upon by those who seek to criticize the President 24/7. It must really be a shame to have to see the world through such dung colored glasses.

        Take the full time employment number. The May number itself was an increase of 300,000 from April, and the July number now out shows it back up by nearly 300,000 since June. That number is now by nearly half a million since versus the March number, but let’s go ahead and take the number that lets us dump on Obama.

        Please tell me where we’re going to be sustained 7-9& GDP growth. This should be good, considering that we’ve only managed to string together more than a 2-4 quarters of that over the past 40 or so years.

        Hey, whatever you have to believe in order to try to live in a world where Obama is ruining everything. Please provide some evidence to back up your claims regarding auto sales. A fair amount of an uptick in sales is likely due to depressed numbers from the first quarter, when weather affected sales, but that’s probably Obama’s fault too. This is awful. That the ideologically blind have to come up with all sorts of fairy tales in order to justify the ongoing Obama hate. The sky isn’t falling. Chill out. Calm it down.

        • hennorama

          Ray in VT — I wouldn’t expect much from someone who asks and answers their own questions.

          • Ray in VT

            Plus there is I think a rather substantial list of questions from others which have long gone unanswered. Must not be able to fit that into the calendar.

          • nj_v2

            That’s but one of many reasons not to expect much from him.

        • HonestDebate1

          You’re buying snake oil. It’s stupid. The economy is in the gutter.

          “Please tell me where we’re going to be sustained 7-9& GDP growth.”

          Why on earth would I follow your tangent? What I said is true. And I agree we’re probably screwed because Obama is not capable of engineering any sort of recovery. This is awful.

          • Don_B1

            As I have demonstrated with analysis and links to other analysis and data in the past, it is not that President Obama is incapable of engineering a recovery, it is the TOTALLY IGNORANT* Tea/Republicans that are preventing his every attempt to strengthen the recovery.

            Your WILLFUL ignorance on this point must again be declaimed as your automaton repetitions are truly obnoxious.

            Just the failure of the Republican-controlled House of Representatives to pass the President’s American Jobs Act back in September 2011 has cost the better part of 1 million jobs.

            —————-
            * They may actually know they are pushing the American worker under the bus as they feel they can blame the lack of jobs on President Obama and they actually know that by cutting federal spending they will reduce aggregate demand and therefore decrease business hiring. They should beware what they wish for.

          • HonestDebate1

            They are keeping him from making it worse. Quit making excuses for him.

          • Don_B1

            They are only making it worse and the only question is whether it is deliberate or not.

            And you are a one note (off-key) samba.

          • Ray in VT

            Nah, I don’t buy your snake oil. I prefer to look at the numbers and not put on the TOP’s shat stained glasses on while I do it.
            Oh, so you don’t have any answers? Good to know. What you said is your opinion, and while it is true that that is your opinion, that does not mean that it is a fact that we need some sort of unattainable GDP number. It must be sad to have to crawl out of bed every morning and just have to think that everything is terrible. But that sort of dismay seems to be just about all that the TOP has to sell these days.
            The practices of certain auto loan dealers, especially the ones where “the dealer is the bank” sort of thing, where lenders prey upon those with less than stellar credit has been known for some time. This isn’t news, but maybe Drudge or whoever is just getting around to noticing this now that jobs numbers are good and they need something else to complain about. Now, of course, there is an issue here, one which could be fixed with usury laws, I just don’t think that this is the end of the world, but feel free to yell about how the sky is falling. Meanwhile the S&P/Experion number on auto loan defaults is only about 40% of what it was a few years ago, and I am more counting on new auto sales, which supports the sorts of manufacturing jobs that Romney told us were being shipped to China, and for which lending standards are more on the up and up.

          • HonestDebate1

            So do you think we can recover without having a major sustained improvement to GDP such as I suggested?

            “Oh, so you don’t have any answers?”

            Who said that? Just because I don’t follow your pin balling doesn’t change the fact of the dynamic needed for recovery. If you are saying there is no way to get to 7-9% GDP for a few back to back quarters then you are saying a recovery is hopeless. You may be right.

          • Ray in VT

            Recovery is certainly possible without the sort of unattainable GDP numbers that you have no clue how to bring about. Oh sorry, I can’t ask you how you think that we’re going to get that. That’s “pinballing”, as it gets you away from your broken record of Obama bad-things are terrible shtick.

            “If you are saying there is no way to get to 7-9% GDP for a few back to back quarters then you are saying a recovery is hopeless.” That is not what I am saying at all. That’s just your dim take on it, which is, as usual, so off base as to be laughable.

      • StilllHere

        Just when you think Democrats can’t lower the bar anymore for this guy, they do it again.

        • Ray in VT

          I know. The longest streak of 200k jobs added per month since 1997. Truly pathetic.

          • HonestDebate1

            What a shallow analysis.

          • Don_B1

            But much deeper than yours!

            Which of course, is nonexistent.

          • Ray in VT

            Sorry to encroach on your territory. I know that that is your forte.
            I know. Looking at such numbers does nothing to tell how awful it is under Obama. We really need to know about the LFPR. I mean people don’t know what factors contribute to changes in it, but can’t we just blame decade long trends on Obama and be done with it?

  • Ed75

    We should require Tom Ashbrook to only report good news today.

  • SteveTheTeacher

    I’m horrified to hear of the collapse of the ceasefire in the Israeli/Gazan war. I have seen evidence provided by the Israeli military of Hamas fire during the ceasefire and I have seen evidence provided by Gazan officials of Israeli bombardment of homes during the ceasefire. In the end, the people, particularly the children, bear the brunt of the brutality.

    The population of Israel is in fear of missile fire. The people of Gaza face a lack of electricity, drinkable water, and cooking fuel, the murder of approximately 300 children in Gaza, the wounding of thousands of children, and displacement of hundreds of thousands more.

    Anybody who has spent time in Israel and Gaza will likely have born witness to the fact, despite poor leadership and a minority of extremists, many, many Israelis and Palestinians are extremely warm and compassionate people. Entering into political discussion with Israelis and Palestinians, as long as the topic is not focused on Arab/Israeli relations, one is likely to find people extremely thoughtful, reflective, and open minded.

    On top of the present human tragedy, I am disturbed the degree to which right wing intelligencia, with support of the mainstream media, have promoted a sense of existential fear to sow, in otherwise caring and progressive thinking people, a public embrace of all manner of atrocities committed against “enemies”.

    I fear that this methodology will be used more widely, in the US and around the world, to create public embrace of all manner of genocide in the service of the powerful few.

    • Don_B1

      Deeply disturbing is how this open fighting is, at least temporarily, restoring the influence of Hamas, which had been at its lowest point in a long time.

      Hamas had recently been forced to rejoin the West Bank Palestinian government led by Mahmoud Abbas, in a definite subordinate position, controlling no offices, etc. But that was anathema to P.M. Netanyahu’s government, and when the horrendous murder of three teenage Israeli’s occurred, Mr. Netanyahu was off to the races to blame Hamas, when now there is at least some evidence that the murders were committed by some small group with no direct ties to Hamas.

      Then came Israel’s arrest of hundreds of Hamas members throughout the West Bank and Gaza and the outbreak of violence between Israel and Gaza, with Mr. Netanyahu mouthing goals from destroying all the tunnels to demilitarizing Gaza, many of which while objectively highly desirable, are also unlikely to occur.

      During “peace intervals,” Israel so controls the borders that Gaza is like a prison, unable to run businesses and even for individuals to come and go. So there are many motives to build the tunnels, and clearly the combination has been effective. It will be repeated until Gaza is allowed more freedom for its people, and if such freedom allows the population better economic prospects, maybe there will be less need for rockets, which would destroy those economic prospects.

  • Fredlinskip

    Israel arresting hundreds of Palestinians and announcing “that there would be grave consequences” for an unsolved crime is VERY MUCH akin to saying “Iraq had something to do with 9/11″, although there was zero evidence and then using that as excuse for War.

    Much more likely Israel used the unsolved crime of the teenagers as excuse to “mow the grass”, which they desire to do on a periodic basis.

    This is very much like America’s response to crime of 9/11,- our government chose to ” connect the dots” in an unsubstantiated way to justify the wiping out of infrastructure and deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.
    And now these same people have the audacity to wonder, “Gee, I wonder why Iraq is such a mess!”

    Similarly to Iraq- killing hundreds of Palestinians is not going to weaken their resolve.

    There is something not a little sadistic about blowing thousands of Palestinians to “Allah”, while saying “these folks like to kill Israelis.”

    And I’m not buying the “human shields” accusations- apparently they expect Palestinian resistance to run out into a wide open field (which of course there are none in one of the most crowded areas on Earth) before firing rocket..

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    72 hour Kerry-brokered cease fire lasted barely 2 hours. SecState should go home and do something he’s actually good at: play golf with his boss.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Yes, it’s too hard. Let’s give up and go home.

      • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

        Like families who can’t live together; it’s pointless to get between the Hatfields and McCoys. Hoober Doober

        • nj_v2

          I doubt the H’s and McC’s had the potential to start WW3.

      • J__o__h__n

        More hopeless than too hard.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          Not trying is guaranteed to fail.

          • J__o__h__n

            How many more decades do we need to invest in this fool’s errand?

  • nj_v2

    Regressive/right-wing jacka**ery of the week:

    http://www.alternet.org/10-militias-bring-firepower-border-children-continue-cross

    Armed Militias Massing at Border to ‘Protect’ America From Small Children
    Armed with semi-automatic weapons, 10 vigilante groups are prowling the Texas-Mexico border.

    July 29, 2014 | Militia groups are starting to line the border between Texas and Mexico to protect the region from an influx of refugee children, despite warnings from state lawmakers and U.S. Customs and Border Protection to stand down.

    The militias have provided dozens of picturesto the media of their members “guarding” the border while carrying what appear to be semi-automatic rifles. The members in the photos are wearing tactical gear and military-style balaclavas that shield their identities (other photos show militia members with their faces blurred out).…

    (snipped)

    http://news.firedoglake.com/2014/07/30/david-frum-accusses-new-york-times-and-reuters-of-faking-gaza-hospital-photos/

    David Frum Accuses New York Times And Reuters Of Faking Gaza Hospital Photos [Updated]

    Former George W. Bush speech writer and current Senior Editor at The Atlantic David Frum has leveled a severe accusation at both the New York Times and Reuters – that they created “fake photos” of Palestinians suffering in Gaza. The author of the famous “Axis of Evil” line claimed that the New York Times and Reuters staged photos in a Gaza hospital where two brothers were dealing with the consequences of an Israeli strike on their home.…

    (snipped)

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/07/29/3465442/whitehouse-blasts-inhofe-on-climate/

    Senator Denies Climate Change On Senate Floor And Gets A Science Lesson From His Colleague

    Here at ClimateProgress, we spend a lot of time debunking politicians who deny climate change based on scientifically murky grounds. On Thursday, it looked as though we’d have to do it again, after Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK) blocked a Senate resolution that would have simply stated that climate change is real. Inhofe said he objected to the resolution because the earth had experienced “no warming for the last 15 years;” and because 9,000 scientists had signed a petition expressing doubt that greenhouse gases cause global warming.

    Fortunately, however, Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) did the debunking for us, just seconds after Inhofe finished his tirade against the Obama administration for having his federal agencies “collude” together to promote a “global warming agenda.”

    “I appreciate very much having had the opportunity to hear those words, from what I can only describe as an alternate reality,” Whitehouse began, before getting into detailed specifics rebutting each one of Inhofe’s points.…

    (snipped)

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/31/kkk-members-call-for-shooting-young-refugees-dead-leave-the-corpses-laying-on-the-border/

    KKK members call for shooting young refugees dead: ‘Leave the corpses laying on the border’

    A self-described “Imperial Wizard” for a Ku Klux Klan organization openly defended his group’s call to deal with the thousands of young Central American immigrants coming to the U.S. through a “shoot to kill” policy, Al Jazeera America reported.

    “To me, they’re breaking the law when they come here,” a hooded man identifying himself as Robert Jones said. “If we can’t turn them back, I think if we pop a couple of them off and leave the corpses laying on the border, maybe they’ll see that we’re serious about stopping immigration.”

    Jones, who said he belonged to a group calling itself the “Loyal White Knights,” made the statement in a 10-minute interview with an associate flanking him in a remote field in North Carolina.…

    (snipped)

    • nj_v2

      Addendum:

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/28/creationist-group-to-ask-kentucky-taxpayers-for-help-building-noahs-ark-theme-park/

      Creationist group to ask Kentucky taxpayers for help building Noah’s ark theme park

      A creationist group will ask state officials again for tax incentives to help build their long-planned Noah’s ark theme park in northern Kentucky.

      Ark Encounter had previously been approved for incentives for the entire $172.5 million project, but it had to withdraw that application due to funding problems.

      The religious group will ask the state Tuesday for incentives to help build the $72 million first phase of the theme park in Williamstown, reported The Louisville Courier-Journal.…

      (snipped)

      • J__o__h__n

        I really want to go to this or the creationist museum, but I’m afraid I’d get shot.

      • Ray in VT

        How about the Michele Bachman claims that unaccompanied migrant children are going to get medically experimented upon by the government?

      • JS

        A Noah’s Ark theme park? Will it be crowded beyond belief, and knee deep in animal waste?

        • MrNutso

          “Have you seen that mess down there? Who’s gonna clean that up? Not me I’m telling you right now…”

          Bill Cosby is a Very Funny Fellow….Right!

        • Ray in VT

          Maybe they’ll only let one man and one woman in at a time.

          • JS

            I won’t even talk about the Noah’s Family Bar attraction and what happens there when Fathers drink too much wine.

          • TFRX

            Hey, think of how you could slap two blackflies, and then: No more blackflies!

            (If Ray Bradbury taught us anything, it’s that that’ll turn out swell.)(

        • hennorama

          JS — hey! I know at least one equine excrement expert — maybe he can consult.

        • nj_v2

          I wonder if the will have piles of rotting carcasses of the poor animals that didn’t make it.

          • TFRX

            “Circle of life”, no?

            I mean, there will always be crows and hyenas and such.

    • hennorama

      nj_v2 — the juxtaposition of the Armed Militias Massing at Border …, and the KKK members call for shooting young refugees dead … stories is quite chilling.

      One wonders how these groups overlap, if they do.

      • Ray in VT

        The modern American militia movement has long had some quite unsavory white supremacist groups present within it.

        • hennorama

          Ray in VT — yes, but without knowing the particular groups and their membership, I don’t want to make assumptions about them.

          • Ray in VT

            Indeed. My comment was about the fact that such elements have existed within the movement generally, which was not meant to imply any sort of feelings held generally in all such groups.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — I understood it that way.

            I think I’m still somewhat influenced by needing to point out loopy assumptions and generalization in the Dinesh D’Souza Won’t Apologize forum.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Average Price of Electricity Climbs to All-Time Record

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/average-price-electricity-climbs-all-time-record

    CNSNews.com is not funded by the government like NPR

    • Ray in VT

      Electricity costs going up in summer seems to be an annual event, just in case you didn’t know.

    • MrNutso

      Yet, I still have lowest fixed rate generating charge in SE PA, which has continued to be under historic levels for several years.

    • nj_v2

      “CNSNews.com is not funded by the government like NPR”

      As a troll, it doesn’t matter to Obamunism, but NPR gets only a portion of its funding, somewhere between five and 20 percent, depending on how one parses it, and the assumptions one makes.

      • StilllHere

        As the most pathetic of trolls, even facts should matter to you and you haven’t refuted his fact.

        • nj_v2

          What fact? I was just clarifying the funding comment.

          Yes, electricity prices are rising. So what? They’re going to rise a lot more. The current, fossil-fule based system is unsustainable, and alternatives will cost a lot more.

          Food costs are going to go up too. Water, too.

          There are things to discuss there, but trolls like StillHere don’t really care about those.

          • Don_B1

            As for food costs, I believe Oxfam (or one of the other relief NGOs) just released a report that food costs would double by 2030 in today’s money.

            For tar sands bituminous to meet costs will require higher oil and gasoline prices than today’s.

            Actually sustainable energy has only a slight premium today and will not rise in price anywhere near the rate of fossil fuels. It will be much cheaper and new generating plants should be built for them, not for more fossil fuels whose price will make them overly costly.

  • nj_v2

    Fine piece of documentary reporting which summarizes the BushCo history of arrogance, incompetence, and mendaciousness in creating the FUBAR Iraq invasion and occupation. Easily worth an hour of your time.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/losing-iraq/

    Losing Iraq

    • MrNutso

      I’m about half way through it so far. I forgot how ridiculous Bush sounded talking about “bring it on”, “we’ll defeat the insurgents”, “the battle for Faluja”…..

      • TFRX

        You forgot how ridiculous that sounded?

        Some of us never did.

        • MrNutso

          I haven’t heard him speachify for a while.

          • TFRX

            Ah, the figurative “sound” v. literal audio “sound”.

            When I read The Onion’s words (put in his mouth), I heard his voice saying them. Awfully prescient stuff.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Exercises in National Betrayal.
    Bill Clinton lied to the nation; then to a federal judge & grand jury.
    DNI James Clapper* lied to the Congress and to the nation.
    DCI David Petreaus* slipped between the sheets with another man’s wife. Repeatedly.
    And now DCI John Brennan* lied to the nation and to the Congress.

    Democrats: they just can’t tell the truth, can they?

    * Obama pick. Some picker.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lee.mortimer.315 Lee Mortimer

    Where’s Jack Beatty? I only listen to On Point when Jack is on. Sorry.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      He’s off in search of Obama’s foreign policy goals. Someone lost them at a golf tournament. HD

      • http://www.facebook.com/lee.mortimer.315 Lee Mortimer

        I guess you’d rather have GWB back!

        • HonestDebate1

          One can dream.

  • MrNutso

    No border crisis bill yet. Ted Cruz continues to own John Boehner.

    • hennorama

      MrNutso — each and every member of the House of Representatives, especially Republicans, should be embarrassed by the fact that a Senator is effectively running their legislative agenda.

  • MrNutso

    So does the lawsuit include retroactively suing every supposed past Presidential EO that they think is unconstitutional?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The not-do- anything pot (president) calling the not-do-anything kettle (Congress).. black.

  • TFRX

    Obama is “too agressive” on this?

    Tom, you’re forgetting a lot of history on this. Aren’t you part of the media? What do you rememeber from the ‘aughts’ and signing statements and recess appointments?

    • JS

      I am not sure if Obama has passed Bush’s EO number yet, but he definitely has been more “aggressive” in declaring that he will govern by EO.

      • TFRX

        Yep. After five years of “we’ll destroy Obama no matter what it does to the country”, the President has given up on trying to work with the tantrum-throwing children of the right.

        That doesn’t make Obama “too aggressive”.

        When in the oppposition, the Democrats didn’t say “We’ll burn this to the ground to keep you from having anything to your name.” The GOP has given up on governance.

        It’d be nice to see someone who has access to a mainstream microphone acknowledge that fact.

        • JS

          I agree with you. It’s certainly aggressive, but not TOO aggressive.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Perhaps the NSA should spy on the CIA. A lot of extra-legal spying on Americans going on here. On Obama’s watch. Assuming he’s watching something.

    • MrNutso

      They probably are. One giant spy circle jerk.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    CIA SPIES ON CONGRESS — time for a Special Prosecutor with Viceroy powers.

  • StilllHere

    American liberals’ man-crush for Obama is difficult to watch and leads to endless excuse-making and contorted rationalizations by the mindless sheep that continue to support him. The illusion continues, but only here. Obama’s star on the world stage has extinguished as he is handily made to look inept and repeatedly shown to be geopolitically naive and ineffectual. Putin has accurately perceived this complete vacuum in global leadership and all Obama can do is sit and watch from the comfort of his golf cart.

    • hypocracy1

      Is it just me, or is StillHere’s man-crush on Putin difficult to watch?

      • StilllHere

        I despise Putin, but your man-crush for Obama is pathetic.

  • J__o__h__n

    Brennan needs to resign.

    • nj_v2

      Or fired. Either option seem unlikely with the current chair warmer in the Oval Office.

  • Obamunism 2.0
    • Ray in VT

      And how have those numbers trended since the end of the Recession or in the last year or two? Perhaps we can also talk about the changes in monthly employment numbers, the stock market numbers or such starting in 2009. Those numbers don’t look very good, do they? Only maybe a doubling of the latter and a turn around of about 1 million per month in jobs, when looking at January 2009 versus now. Thanks Obama.

    • Bigtruck

      CNS news, the rights version of The Onion. Michelle Malkin writes commentary for goodness sake

      • Ray in VT

        It certainly is pretty funny at times. No mention yet, I see, of how many people left the labor force last month. Probably millions.

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — gotta find something implicitly critical of President Obama, in light of the 4.0% GDP growth in Q2, and continued employment growth, right?.

      And of course, everyone knows that the President controls the actions of all the employers in the universe, and could simply wave a magic wand to change anything he chose to.

      BTW — congratulations for settling on one moniker, and at least not using a source from Montenegro.

  • nj_v2

    WIll Brennan lose his job for lying?

    Not likely under this administration that has dramatically increased secrecy, cracked down on whistle blowers, and expansion of spying on citizens.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Does anyone in D.C. lose their permanent free lunch privileges? HD

    • hennorama

      nj_v2 — he should resign.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Nobody uses 200 words when 20 will do — like John Kerry.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    WHY does the US have keep to pushing for diplomatic solutions in the middle east? Why, exactly?

    • Jack

      Because they aren’t willing to sufficiently fund Israel to evict the Palestinians and they aren’t willing to let the Arabs overrun Israel.

  • MrNutso

    The Russians are correct about the American path in terms of the government action. You can get a lot more done being a dictator than screwing around with actual legislative votes.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    That’s it, Tom. Ask the conventional wisdom D.C. media stenographers another conventional wisdom question.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Rich man’s war = Israel.
    Poor man’s fight = Palestine.
    That’s why the world aside from the USA is on the side of the besieged folks who’s land is being illegally occupied. Perhaps someone in the UN actually knows this.

    • STS

      social media also reveals the truth. Using their civilians as unwilling martyrs and lying full faced are techniques used quite deliberately by Hamas. Iron Dome, by the way, is an Israeli technology, not American, as someone observed on the show. Using it is very costly and that is where American dollars are a help.
      The difference is not rich/poor, it is primarily moral
      (see Sam Harris blog “why I don’t criticize israel”).
      it is a moral fighting force = Israel
      murderous immoral force = Hamas

      • JS

        Who pays for the Iron Dome? American dollars are not a “help”, they are a primary source of military income for Israel.

    • STS

      Anyway, Gaza has not been occupied since 2005, when Israel left, pulling its citizens forcefully from their villages in Gaza.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Social media exposes the D.C. lies and partisanship in the middle east.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Chinese General Says U.S. Foreign Policy Has ‘Erectile Dysfunction’ Problems

    http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/06/02/chinese-general-says-u-s-foreign-policy-has-erectile-dysfunction-problems/

    • Ray in VT

      This is week in the news, right? Not 2 months ago in the news, right?

    • hennorama

      Obamunism — yes, we need to take the opinions of a “Chinese General” seriously.

      • TFRX

        Why do I get the feeling that someone is trying to sell somebody powdered rhino horn over this?

      • JS

        I do like his chicken dishes.

    • MrNutso

      Tso?

      • hennorama

        MrNutso — I thought about making a chicken joke, but I prefer your single word.

        • MrNutso

          I thought my response would do double duty.

          • hennorama

            Yes, you bastige!

  • Ray in VT

    What? The Dow is off 3 percent since Tuesday? Thanks Obama.

    • GWelch

      In a way, you may be right. Thoughts were that the Fed may start raising rates in response to an economy on the rise, and that spooked the market.

      Damn you, Obama! Crush this economy and boost my 401k!

      • Ray in VT

        I certainly think that the markets may be responding to actions that may be taken by the Fed., but previous recent moves have created small, short term moves, but nothing that I think of as spooky.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Was the basketball court ruined at Pauley Pavilion? I don’t expect a D.C. journo will know the answer to this.* Re: LA water main break. Maybe an online poster will know..

    * Or even know what it is.

  • Jack

    Of course, the Clinton should have taken Bin Laden when Sudan offered him to us in the late 90s. No one ever remembers that.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      It’s been recorded and noted before. HD

      • Jack

        My point is it never should have been a question of bombing Kandahar; the administration should have taken Bin Laden in 96 and been done with it.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The Clintons will always find a way to get a public do-over. Must be a golfer thing.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Mad Magazine’s Spy vs. Spy series anticipated the NSA/CIA/FBI bugaboo decades ago.

    • MrNutso

      I saw a great cartoon the other day featuring them.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Pentagon preparing for mass civil breakdown

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/12/pentagon-mass-civil-breakdown

    How could that be when the economy is so ‘strong’?

    • Ray in VT

      “Among the projects awarded for the period 2014-2017 is a Cornell University-led study managed by the US Air Force Office of Scientific Research which aims to develop an empirical model “of the dynamics of social movement mobilisation and contagions.” The project will determine “the critical mass (tipping point)” of social contagians by studying their “digital traces” in the cases of “the 2011 Egyptian revolution, the 2011 Russian Duma elections, the 2012 Nigerian fuel subsidy crisis and the 2013 Gazi park protests in Turkey.””

      Obviously this is all due to alarming conditions emerging here in the U.S.

    • Ray in VT

      I also hear that the CDC is preparing for an outbreak of zombies.

      • MrNutso

        I wonder when the Walking Dead returns?

        • Ray in VT

          The show or the actual walking dead?

          • MrNutso

            The show. The actually seems to crop up in the House Republican Caucus.

          • Ray in VT

            I still haven’t been able to get around to watching it (the TV show). My wife has no interest in it, and I have so little free time at home that that basically makes it impossible for me to watch it at present, although I hear so many good things about it.

          • MrNutso

            It will be a good binge watch.

          • JS

            It’s a good show, but it tends to get to the point where the writers run out of ideas and must have the actors do stupid things in order to advance the plot.

            But I guess that some well prepared people in a secure defensive position waiting out the zombie apocalypse would not make for riveting television.

          • MrNutso

            I agree that a few episodes in the last couple of seasons could be eliminate/combined without affecting the quality.

          • JS

            I cant help but second guessing everything. A large front-end loader would have cleared the fence line way more effectively, add some jersey barriers, etc. And empty cells should have been stockpiled, etc. And why go out on supply runs in a sedan? Where are all the panel trucks? Armored vechiles? Flat beds?

            Don’t get me started! lol

          • MrNutso

            Sure, it’s easy to plan for the zombie apocalypse when you know it’s coming.

          • JS

            Its not so much planning as smart reaction. You secure the outside, but secure in inner “keep”. Have an escape plan, stockpile supplies. basic common sense. I mean, really, stringing up cans as a zombie alert system? How about circling all the cars into a perimeter ring? Even the 1800′s travelers knew enough to circle the wagons.

      • JS

        If you are prepared for the zombies, you are prepared for anything.

        Rule #1: Train your primary weapon

        • hennorama

          JS — I still say the pike for fixed position defensive purposes, and a spear or machete for close quarters.

          • JS

            And I still insist that a machete would tire you out very quickly, assuming you can get a machete unstuck from a skull in time for another whack.

            A bunch of pointy sticks, or spears would work wonders, just jab and run, jab and run. We use regular mop handles with a large nail or sharpened bolt inserted for Spear throwing practice.

          • TFRX

            Pointy sticks?

            That’ll teach me to come at you with a banana.

          • MrNutso

            Reloading my revolver.

        • Ray in VT

          The Zombie Survival Guide is a fine all purpose preparation manual.

      • TFRX

        There’s just something low-information-media black-helicopterish about the steps of ignorance which resulted in the CDC getting so many questions about zombies that they felt the need to issue a statement about zombies.

        I mean, at what age do schoolchildren no longer believe in “cooties”? Nine or ten?

        • Ray in VT

          I thought that they were just taking something from the zeitgeist in order to make something like disaster preparedness more fun, interesting and consumed. I think that it makes perfect marketing sense.

    • creaker

      The economy is strong (for now) – it’s just who is benefitting that has shifted.

      But if the 1% expects growth on top of the money they are reaping now, stagnating wages and ignoring rotting infrastructure won’t be enough, they’ll need new laws to suck that money from main street America and sufficient force to deal with the backlash.

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — LOOK OUT!

      There’s a black/invisible/cloaked helicopter behind you!

      • Ray in VT

        “Sounds like helicopters. U.N. helicopters.” – Dale Gribble.

    • jefe68

      Comprehension issues or are you just cherry picking here hoping people wont read the article.

  • AC

    gee. we don’t need to worry about our infrastructure….

    • StilllHere

      Was your train late?

      • AC

        i already told you not to bother with me or my comments. you choose life with rose colored glasses, i have to deal with fall out and reality. please leave me alone. we will learn nothing from one another but aggravation.

        • StilllHere

          Sorry, I didn’t get that message but will follow your wishes from now on. You were the one who said not to pay too much attention to what you see, and yet you draw systemic conclusions from your limited observations. My reality is as real as yours, but your negative world view and proclivity for complaining make everything non-negotiable for you. Pity.

          • AC

            i guess you must not know i’m a professional engineer who sits on several boards. but, still, not worth it to get into with you. please respond to this so you get the last word and i don’t have to bother….

          • MrNutso

            What type of engineering?

          • AC

            geological

          • MrNutso

            I do water and sewer, so we won’t be traveling in the same circles. Thanks anyway.

          • AC

            i deal with water peeps all the time and have worked on some CSO projects. as well as various water authorities all over, but who knows?

          • MrNutso

            We have a geologist who works on my water projects, but he spends his spare time with other rock pickers. :D

          • AC

            rocks are cleaner then suspended solids!!!! :P

          • AC

            that’s my real pic so if you see me at a seminar come up and say hello

          • nj_v2

            ^ Troll

          • AC

            i’m trying not to take the bait, this stillhere person is determined to be emotional

          • jefe68

            Ignore the troll.

          • StilllHere

            I was going to ignore you but then you had to get personal. You’re the one who is completely emotional with your over-the-top conclusions. You may have a certain depth of experience but it’s in a very limited area that certainly doesn’t allow you to draw systemic conclusions.

            I sit on my village’s Environmental and Public Services Committee but you don’t see me saying that just because we have an overfunded infrastructure fund that means the same is true across America.

            So next time, follow your own advice and leave me out of it.

          • AC

            omg. he/she’s still trying to get me to react to their delusion! i feel like keltcrusader when someone kept automatically disliking anything they wrote at all!!

          • StilllHere

            That’s a completely reasonable, unemotional reaction you’re having there, not at all paranoid and unbalanced.

  • GWelch

    I’m sorry Tom – are you saying that the slaughter of innocent women and children to kill bin Ladin if ordered by Clinton would have avoided the war in Iraq? Bush would have proceeded against Iraq based upon his belief in WMDs irrespective of facts to the contrary.

    • StilllHere

      Even with Hillary whispering in his ear to do it?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    No water in the southwest? Too bad. My cabin is at 8k ft. In the Sangres. So long as there’s snow, there will be water in Colorado.

    • JS

      Has the snow line been advancing up the mountain?

  • Camp14214

    Hamas, ISIS and other radical Islamic groups will never stop attacking their perceived enemies. To them all non-Muslims are infidels and hypocrites.

    Hamas learned a valuable lesson from Chairman Mao: ‘To us, life is cheap, that is our advantage over the West.’ During the Vietnam war Mao sent hundreds of thousands of his own soldiers to death because he knew the West had no stomach for the continued slaughter of their precious young men. He would have sent troops until the West surrendered, he had an endless supply of pawns.

    The misguided Islamic warriors believe they can use the citizens of Gaza to achieve their goals. They know how we will react to the photos of wounded children. THEY DON’T CARE. They love death as much as we love life.

    “Whoever is killed by a Jew receives the reward of two martyrs, because
    the very thing that the Jews did to the prophets was done to him.”
    Atallah Abu Al-Subh, former Hamas
    minister of culture. April 8, 2011

    “I was ordered to fight all men until they say “There is no god but Allah.””
    Muhammad, March 632.

    “I was ordered to fight all men until they say “There is no god but Allah.””
    Osama bin Laden, November 2001

    • hennorama

      Camp14214 — how’s western NY these days? Is it snowing in Buffalo yet? ;-)

  • spoot

    The truly scary thing is that with everything happening in the world, on our borders and on the hill. It seems that there are truly no adults in charge on Pennsylvania avenue. Where are the adults? Someone make an adult decision. Obama needs to quit the Hamlet impersonation and switch to reading Henry V.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Psychotic black man* beating up his woman. Where’s the news here?

    * Almost the very definition of pro athletes in America today. It’s why I don’t watch pro football & basketball.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      C’mon! Your sentence should start with “Man”.

  • nj_v2

    Re. water, the problem isn’t just in California and the western U.S.

    Project these assessments of water issues against the insanity/desperation of gas fracking which requires and contaminates millions of gallons of water for every well.

    http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/29/water-electricitydroughts.html

    Report: World faces water crises by 2040

    The world will face “insurmountable” water crises in less than three decades, researchers said Tuesday, if it does not move away from water-intensive power production.

    A clash of competing necessities — drinking water and energy demand — will cause widespread drought unless action is taken soon, researchers from Denmark’s Aarhus University, Vermont Law School and the CNA Corporation, a nonprofit research and analysis organization, said in the reports.

    “It’s a very important issue,” said lead study author Paul Faeth, Director of Energy, Water, & Climate at CNA Corporation. “Water used to cool power plants is the largest source of water withdrawals in the United States,” said Faeth in a press release on two new reports released Tuesday.

    “The recommendations in these reports can serve as a starting point for leaders in these countries, and for leaders around the world, to take the steps needed to ensure the reliability of current generating plants and begin planning for how to meet future demands for electric power.”

    Globally, there has been a three-fold population increase in the past century and a six-fold increase in water consumption, the report said. If trends in population and energy use continue, it could leave a 40 percent gap between water supply and demand by the year 2030.…

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Good things can mitigate the jail sentence. If Rice was a normal Joe Citizen. Rice will go scot free because judges are merely political creatures.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    7.5M Americans Working Part Time, But Not by Choice

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/75m-americans-working-part-time-not-choice

    Apparently they didn’t get the memo about how wonderful the economy is.

    • JS

      Yes, it was so much better when they weren’t working at all

    • Ray in VT

      That number is down by over 2/3 of a million since this time last year. Thanks, Obama.

      • AC

        i don’t think he meant it that way; he’s talking about corp greed ruining jobs and people’s dignities in this country…isn’t he? you can’t blame the president for decisions companies like walmart and fast food chains use to fatten their shareholders ‘bottom lines’ at all costs….that would be stupid of obamunism.

        • Ray in VT

          I think that it was meant as an at least somewhat veiled attack on the current administration. It seems that so many of the President’s critics see so little, if any at all, fault in the actions of companies regarding these numbers or trends.

    • AC

      that’s why it’s so important for Marketbasket workers to stand strong against letting the new management turn their company into another one of those walmart type companies. all so 6 shareholders get a few more thousand a year. i’m glad you see the problem here and brought this up – thanks!!

    • StilllHere

      Obamacare, once the extended exclusions expire, will likely drive part-time employment numbers. It’s raised the hurdle for converting from part-time to full-time significantly higher. It may also have broader and destabilizing inflationary affects as well. Time will tell.

      • Ray in VT

        Would you care to provide some evidence to that effect? The reports and economists whom I have read on the subject show no meaningful trends to suggest that the ACA is driving a move towards part time work.

    • jimino

      The massive increase in the percentage of part-time workers is a direct result of the 2008 economic crisis, and has remained fairly steady since.

    • M. J. DeMenna

      They should unionize.

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — don’t you mean

      “Apparently they didn’t get the memo about how wonderful the economy is [in North Dakota, and that they all should quit their jobs, then use their non-existent savings to move there, regardless of their ties to either their current employers, or their families and communities.]“?

  • Bryno

    I live in California. In one of the drought stricken areas. I do everything I can to avoid wasting water including only showering a few times a week and saving the dishwater to water my garden. However, most of the community still waters their grass. Much of the water used sprays off onto the sidewalk where it just evaporates. Water is still cheap. The price of water needs to increase. The general public will not stop wasting water until the price goes up and they feel the effects of the waste.

    • JS

      Amen brother. There should be agressive pricing, where the more you use, the higher the cost/gal becomes. A low standard amount for basic needs, and steeply increasing after that. There is no need to water a lawn anywhere ever.

    • MrNutso

      I do all that (except the showering part which I do every day). I have a septic system so almost all water returns to the ground. It kills me that people waste water trying to have a golf course lawn. I represent local water suppliers and people come in complaining about their high water bills from using their lawn sprinklers.

      • nj_v2

        By minimizing lawn areas, properly amending the soil before planting, employing good maintenance practices, and utilizing other kinds of planting/landscaping in areas unsuitable for lawns, it’s still possible to have lawns that don’t require ongoing irrigation.

        And many irrigation systems are set or designed improperly, neglected, broken, or otherwise compromised so that they water inordinate amounts of water. I’ve seen systems that, literally, use 10–20 times the amount of water that’s actually needed.

        • MrNutso

          I always love seeing an irrigation system running when it’s raining.

          • nj_v2

            We’ve seen broken heads, leaking heads, heads aimed at buildings, leaking lines underground, improper runs times and frequencies…

            Actually, running during a rain event isn’t always as ridiculous as it might seem. You might not want your system to completely shut down if it only rains lightly for a few minutes.

            Fortunately, technology is improving, and there are systems now that realize not just that it’s raining, but accounts for how much water the rain actually provides, compares it to what is being called for, and makes the necessary adjustments.

            These cost more, and require more checking and maintenance, so they’re not as widely implemented as one might hope.

          • hennorama

            nj_vs — and soil moisture sensors as well, of course.

          • nj_v2

            There’s software that takes into account a whole range of things soil texture, temperature, forecasted weather, etc.

          • hennorama

            nj_v2 — yep. Irrigation system controllers have gotten very sophisticated.

            Hooray for technology and ingenuity!

    • hennorama

      Bryno — tell your local leaders. Attend the meetings. Make waves (pardon the pun).

    • GWelch

      “However, most of the community still waters their grass.”

      Good on you for being responsible, but that key phrase may well account for an incredible amount of wasted water. Your community should encourage xeriscaping; this situation is only going to get worse.

      If we were able to fund the necessary infrastructure, another alternative would be to start implementing “purple pipe” in road construction. That would allow using recycled water from wastewater treatwater plants for non-potable uses, taking a lot of stress off water treatment plants.

      • MrNutso

        As a wastewater engineer, I would like to see that happen. However, it’s even simpler. Taste and odor control combined with chlorination would allow wastewater to be piped directly into the water distribution system.

        • JS

          Are you in New England, and are you hiring?

          • AC

            what are you looking for? i can direct you…

          • JS

            I graduated with an Environmental Science and Management Masters in May 2103. I am looking for ES I or II positions, Remediation, Stormwater/Water Resource management, etc.

          • AC

            start here: http://engineers.org/
            the TECET admin for BSCES too – go to meetings and presentations, best way to get work is to network, there are always jobs available

        • AC

          hey – i must know you!!

        • GWelch

          Huh. I used to work with WW engineers. I thought that the idea was that recycled water would avoid fluoridation, UV treatment and all the other things required in potable water. On the other hand, things like trihalomethanes aren’t a problem in non-potable water. Anyway, it sounds like we’re agreed that there has to be more efficiency in water use>

          • MrNutso

            Fluoridation is not required in all water. We use UV disinfection for wastewater to avoid de-chlorination before stream discharge. I would still use UV and then chlorinate at the entry point to achieve the required chlorine residual.

          • nj_v2

            What’s the minimum exposure requirement for UV exposure for the disinfectant goal to be achieved?

          • MrNutso

            It depends on the clarity of the effluent water and flow rate. Usually the UV structure is fixed, so you add additional banks of bulbs to achieve the required goal.

          • SteveTheTeacher

            Quite a long time ago, I worked on a dynamic system design of such a system.

            Every try using Titanium Dioxide? When water with Titanium Dioxide is exposed to light, photocatalytic ability greatly increases the rate of oxidation to bonds in contaminant DNA.

          • nj_v2

            Fluoridation isn’t “required” in potable water, at least not everywhere, fortunately.

        • Bryno

          I completely agree. The only argument I’ve heard against raising the price of water is that it would hurt very low income families. They may not be able to pay higher rates. The solution still seems simple. Every home gets a certain number of gallons per month at a low price. Anything over that amount, the price goes way up. That way low income families don’t get killed just trying to get by and people can still take a shower and wash their clothes without huge expense. Those who want to water their grass can continue doing so, they will just have to pay for it. The extra money can go into desalination research.

          • MrNutso

            That’s how I try to structure rates studies. Everybody gets a minimum. Above that, the price rises based on excess consumption. The problem I encounter is that state law says rates have to be reasonable and consistent. Higher rates for higher consumption could easily be challenged if it can be demonstrated that there’s not cost reason for the higher rate.

          • nj_v2

            What if someone has a property with extensive gardens that provide a good portion of their produce and that need periodic/occasional watering?

            What about businesses (restaurants?) where higher uses are inherent in the operation?

            How is “excess” usage defined and determined?

          • hennorama

            nj_v2 — that can mostly be resolved with different rate structures for business vs. residential [or agricultural] use, and with classifications within those types. E.g, a restaurant would be classified differently than a warehouse, with rates that take “normal” usage into account.

            There can also be a sort of appeals system whereby the rate classification might be changed for the “urban farmer” who describe.

          • MrNutso

            You can purchase a higher allocation, and any business that has specific water needs will do that. The big issue is residential excess usage.

          • nj_v2

            I’m still wondering what the base level of use is beyond which is considered “excess.” And how is that determined?

          • hennorama

            Bryno — you’re describing tiered pricing, which is in effective already in some SoCal municipalities (and elsewhere).

    • hennorama

      Bryno — there’s also the somewhat ironic aspect that the municipal water systems need the revenue from the high/wasteful usage, often to pay for prior decisions to get access and/or rights to more expensive water supplies. Some of these decisions were made as a result of the previous drought conditions, and the access and/or rights that were purchased are to supplies that are not currently available, such as State Water.

    • HonestDebate1

      We had a drought here in NC a few years back. The utility companies asked people to cut back and they did. After the water tables recovered they were rewarded with higher prices to make up for the short fall.

    • hennorama

      Bryno — simple rainwater collection and storage systems can collect rather sizable amounts, even during very small precipitation events, such as the monsoonal showers occuring today in the Southwest, including parts of southern CA.

      For example, a 2000 sq. ft. roof could yield more than 50 gallons with only .05″ of rainfall.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    So they’re flying Ebola BACK TO AMERICA. There really is no one in charge in Washington, D.C. nowadays, is there?

    • StilllHere

      It’s only coming in Business Class though to conserve cash.

  • amazonjn

    But she married him anyway!!!???

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Who can figure women?
      –Julius Caesar

      • amazonjn

        Same as men. Everyone has a price.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    If it was Al Qaeda flying an Ebola virus bomber to the states the USAF would shoot the jet airliner down over the Atlantic.

  • RAM

    Since 2004 – a span of TEN YEARS – there have been 40 Israelis killed by rocket and mortar attacks launched from Gaza. Yesterday alone 40 Palestinians were killed and the current death toll in Gaza from Israeli attacks now stands at1,400. That Israel and the US media continue to use the rocket attacks as an excuse to slaughter Palestinians is sick.

    • Arkuy The Great

      So if I start firing randomly from a “saturday night special” through your window (not hitting anything of value nor doing significant damage, I should note) you are not allowed to take a 12-gauge and blow me away?

      • creaker

        Suppose it wasn’t you firing but someone you have some sort of political or ethnic association with. Does that make you and your family legitimate targets?

        • Arkuy The Great

          Suppose you are firing at me and you have assembled your entire family in front of you such that when I fire my 12-gauge and blow you to smithereens (rightly, I might add) I take out the array of innocents you have so emplaced. Does their presence give you any sort of legitimate protection? Or is their inevitable death your fault?

          Your thought process is little short of ghoulish!

    • Salty

      If I am good at defending myself (body armor, let’s say) and you are a lousy aim, do I have to allow you to shoot at me? You might get lucky one day with a double tap head shot. Can I retaliate, take away your ability to shoot at me so I don’t have to wear the body armor everyday? Would your shooting at me from a bus stop mean I couldn’t take you out for fear of harming the kids at the bus stop? Whose fault would it be? You, the shooter? Me or the kids at the bus stop? If you stopped shooting at me none of this would happen anyway.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    You can still play the drums with Parkinsons.

  • TFRX

    “Does not feel like a 4% growth economy” says one of the guests. (Name not caught.)

    How many times does it have to be said that The Economy != (does not equal) Wall Street?

    • creaker

      Just think of what year after year double digit growth economy has meant to most folks in China – basically nothing.

      • Arkuy The Great

        A nascent middle class 300 million strong is not “basically nothing”.

        • creaker

          Agreed – but that doesn’t mean much to the hundreds of millions whose standard of living has not changed.

          Lots of folks here making good money recently – but lots of people who have benefitted in economic upturns in the past have not been invited to the party this time around.

  • StilllHere

    Tom’s ‘Do-nothing’ Congress passed VA and highway bills this week. It’s not really do-nothing is it, it’s more a ‘Didn’t-do-everything-Tom-wanted’ Congress. Maybe your man Obama will make some recess appointments and some EOs to make you feel better.

    • Ray in VT

      Oh wow. They got around to passing a highway bill that temporarily fixes a problem that has been seen coming for years? Kudos Congress. These actions must really drive them up the list in terms of legislative activity by session.

      • StilllHere

        Your bar for Congress is much higher than your bar for Obama. Don’t let your man-crush get in the way of consistency.

        • Ray in VT

          I know. I expect Obama to pass about a billion bills per year, so he fails that test dramatically.

          • StilllHere

            Well first he’d have to propose them, but I hear ya.

          • Ray in VT

            He proposes a decent number of things, but even those things that enjoy some pretty broad public support get nary a sniff in the House.

          • StilllHere

            Your man-crush is in full bloom.

          • Ray in VT

            By pointing out obvious facts? That’s right. I’m full on gay for the guy.

          • StilllHere

            Well, at least you got one fact right, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

          • Ray in VT

            Yes, I did point out that he proposes plenty of stuff, and that even the broadly publicly popular things don’t get anywhere with the GOP. Thank you for concurring.

          • StilllHere

            Wrong one, but keep trying.

          • Ray in VT

            No, but keep trying.

          • StilllHere

            Sorry, didn’t mean to touch a nerve. Be strong.

          • Ray in VT

            Stilll way off base. Keep on flailing.

          • StilllHere

            No I really mean it, I’m sorry. I realize I’m being kind of a prick. No need to be so mean spirited, my bad. We may disagree politically, but we are both Americans, and I realize now that life is too short to spend it being a jerk to people online. I’m going to go take a walk now and enjoy some sunshine.

          • StilllHere

            Pathetic.

          • Fredlinskip

            Oh please interject one more obnoxious remark before you go.

          • jefe68

            That’s the way this troll rolls.

          • pete18

            Drink!

          • jefe68

            Have one on me…
            I hope you have a strong liver…

            Trooooooooooollllllllllllllllll!

            Troll again, look a troll once more.
            There seem to be three, no there are four!
            I think I see a troll in yonder distance…

            What do I see there, why it’s a right wing troll-boy… There he is again, that puffy, roly poly troll. My he’s on a roll… that whinny whinging ol’ soul of a troll.

            Look, there he goes, that Friday Morning Right Winger of a Troll.
            I think his name is Noel or Pete or HD…
            He’s all dressed up in his troll hat and troll trousers, with his mind on trolling the browsers.

            He’s thinking he’ll show a few libruls what’s what. He’ll linger, and stomp his troll feet. He’ll meander and gnash his mendacious troll teeth. The troll thinks he knows and will stomp on some toes just to get that insult out of it’s nose. All the while he will gnash and be brash while pontificating all that white trash.

          • pete18

            “Burp.”

          • jefe68

            How’s your liver?

          • StilllHere

            I bet you can see it from where your head is.

          • StilllHere

            I’m back from my walk now, feel much better. Hope everyone has a great weekend!

          • hennorama

            Spoofer alert.

          • Fredlinskip

            You too- don’t be afraid to remove comments that are obviously meant to hurt others instead of promoting rational discussion.
            no shame in admitting one is human and subject to fits of passion-
            or redressing disrespectful behavior.

          • Ray in VT

            The weather is quite nice today, at least where I am. I hope that you enjoy it.

          • hennorama

            Begone, spoofer.

          • John Cedar

            Why do so many girls fall for guys that are bad for them?

          • jefe68

            Why do you bother?

          • Ray in VT

            Sometimes I wonder myself.

          • jefe68

            You do realize that it does seem a little but obsessional, but as long as your having fun…

          • Ray in VT

            I can see that. I think that I have a few borderline-OCD behaviors, and they generally help me in my work. I’m also stubborn.

      • jefe68

        It’s not fixed. Not in any real terms. It’s funded for the next few months.

        Funny how still a troll left out the GOP debacle in the House on the bill to fund the Border.

    • Fredlinskip

      This Congressional session is on course to be least productive in history.
      Either that’s because either:
      1) there are just aren’t many problems in America today, or
      2) Congress, especially House, is completely incompetent.

      • Salty

        Hasn’t the house sent dozens if not hundreds of bills to the Senate for them to just sit there and not even get a hearing? I wonder how that number compares to Senate bills that never get a hearing in the House? (A real question, not rhetorical… I will have to research that a bit…)

        • Fredlinskip

          There is some truth to what you say, but current House is notorious for either ignoring larger issues that are even a little bit controversial so as not to offend ANY constituents.
          Or passing bills with little or often zero Democratic votes in House, knowing full well they have not a snowball’s chance of passing in Senate- just so they can sit back and say, “Hey we passed something- it’s Senate’s fault”.
          it’s simply nonsense they choose not to work together- and the fault lies mostly in the House.

          • Salty

            Well… I did a bit of digging…

            The 97th, 98th, 99th and 100th Congress’ House passed fewer bills. There hasn’t been a Senate to pass less than the current one since 1973. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/whos-not-doing-anything_796039.html)

            How “real” were the bills? I don’t know. Passing something that every one knows won’t pass is an issue. But how many Senate bills were “real” by the same measure?

            What would be interesting would be a public joint agreement – “You put all of ours on the floor and we will put all of yours. No exceptions for me, no exceptions for you.” This would be fun to watch. It would water down the power of the leader of the H and the S however and I am not sure if egos would allow that.

    • hypocracy1

      Yeah, Take that Tom. Man you really told him! I don’t know who goes on vacation more, Tom or Obama?

  • Salty

    Doing “bad stuff” is worse than doing nothing, isn’t it?

    • Fredlinskip

      No, although that is what right wingers would have us believe.
      They would have us believe that Government “of and, by the people” is good for nothing.
      This is a slap in the face of our Forefathers who created this country and this government through Constitution.
      But those who harbor such beliefs have absolutely no respect for our country or our constitution-
      whether they realize it or not.

      Try to be forgiving though Salty-
      “They know not what they do” and are highly influenced with media outlets designed to create confusion and promote misinformation, backed by billionaires with political motivations
      (see: Rupert Murdoch)

    • hypocracy1

      There is “good stuff” that could be done, but that would make Obama look good and we can’t have that!

      Take for example how Obama is handling the border crisis.. forget about that part where it isn’t his job to rewrite the laws to fix “bad stuff”.. just remember doing nothing is better.

  • Ray in VT

    Breaking news! Fox confirms that President Obama was at the White House on the night of September 11, 2012.

    • StilllHere

      Walking on water according to MSNBC.

      • M. J. DeMenna

        Walking on water according to liberals according to Fox News.

        • hennorama

          M.J. DeMenna — Walking on water according to no one.

          • Ray in VT

            But the libruls….

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — who are “the libruls,” again (if you know)?

          • Ray in VT

            I would tell, but Obama would probably come after me. I’ve probably said too much already. I better create a new account and close this one.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — OK, now that prompted a literal LOL moment. Well done, sir.

          • HonestDebate1

            Obama doesn’t come after liberals, no worries.

          • Ray in VT

            What non-liberals is he coming after?

          • HonestDebate1

            You guys spell funny. It’s “liberal” and for good measure it’s “America”. No one talks like you guys write.

          • Ray in VT

            I seem to recall some here using the spelling “librul” long before I did. I use it mockingly as a response to those who can’t be bothered to use proper English.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62uzvRPaz5s

            Don’t be steppin’ on their rats. Their states rats.

          • HonestDebate1

            Technically he walked on land after he made the oceans recede.

    • hennorama

      Ray in VT — OK, but where was the President?!

      • HonestDebate1

        No one has even asked him.

    • JS

      I’m surprised they ever even confirmed he is President!

      • HonestDebate1

        Why?

      • Ray in VT

        There was some confusion about that fact on election night in 2012. I think that Jon Stewart called it “avalanche on bullsh*t mountain”.

        • JS

          I’m remembering Carl Rove’s face on FOX that night in 2012

    • HonestDebate1

      He was passed out drunk dreaming of Vegas. That’s ,y opinion anyway. He hasn’t denied it. If he was there and sober it makes him look much worse.

      • Ray in VT

        I know. He also hasn’t denied being a space alien. Inquiring minds want to know. WWSRHD? What Would Supper Reagan Have Done? Why, immediately (4 days later) flown there using his free market superpower and personally provided military support. Obama is such an underachiever.

  • M. J. DeMenna

    Post-structural linguistics:

    The repetition of the sign reconditions the nature of the signified in the eyes of the signifier. E.g., “illegal, illegal, illegal” reconditions the “child” into a criminal. In fact, the signified “illegal” conceals the referent “child.” The biological fact of a child is lost in a fog of concepts like “boarders,” “aliens,” and “legality.” The language self-deludes the signifier in order to blind themselves from the violence the child will likely face after deportation.

    “The law is the law,” “illegals,” and “aliens,” etc. are not arguments but attitudes. The repetition is the necessary tautology required to affirm a version of reality. (Pun intended.)

    • StilllHere

      Lots of assumptions here regarding delusions. Illegal however is the status until shown otherwise.

      • M. J. DeMenna

        You made my point without realizing it. The “status” is conferred upon the assumption of a “just law.” The “law is the law” is not an argument but an attitude that reinforces the criminalization of children.

        The fact of the referent is the biological human being. Conservatives have referred to children as “illegals.” And if they do call them children, they put quotation marks around it: “children.” This is the unconscious dehumanization of children. I don’t know why it is happening. I can just show you it’s happening from the rhetoric of the politicians to the rhetoric in the comments on NPR to Yahoo News.

        Conservatives need to stop expressing an attitude and explain why profit is more important than the lives of these children. Obviously, profit is not more important, hence the repetition of the word “illegal.”

        • Arkuy The Great

          “The “law is the law” is not an argument”

          Don’t try that line in court!

          • M. J. DeMenna

            You do realize that the main defense to Jim Crow was “the law is the law.”
            There are such things as unjust laws. I’m not arguing the law; I’m arguing the morality of the law. Conservatives are hiding behind the law in order to disregard the immorality of sending children to violent-stricken countries.

          • Arkuy The Great

            Seems to me that those calling homosexuality sinful and lewd are making that exact same argument. What makes your sense of “unjust laws” any more legitimate?

          • StilllHere

            Or Roe v. Wade?

          • M. J. DeMenna

            There are visible moral arguments being made. And we can have those arguments. But using, as I said earlier, “the law is the law” attitude is different. The latter is employed to avoid moral arguments.

          • JS

            I think you are making MJ’s point.

            Conservatives (in general) make a moral argument against abortion, and against gay marriage.

            Where is the moral argument in the immigration debate?

            If the position is “the law is the law’, then the abortion debate should be over.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Precisely! Liberals can express the “law is the law” attitude when it comes to abortion, but at least I don’t. I’ll talk about personhood and freedom to control one’s own body when necessary–which is the moral argument.

            I don’t think everyone is seeing the distinction between legal positivism and the justification of law.

          • StilllHere

            Liberals most common retort to pro-lifers is “the law is the law.”

          • JS

            Some liberals, yes. Thank you for making the point yet again.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Are you seeing our point now. Except for a Seinfeld episode, I never hear liberals retort to pro-lifers, “the law is the law.” You see the inadequacy when applied to the abortion issue, but you are not seeing the inadequacy when applied to the immigration issue. That’s the point!

          • jefe68

            No, it’s that women should have the right to control their bodies.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Let’s be clear, the gay marriage debate is a different debate, but I agree there are some carry over in terms of linguistics.

            In the gay marriage debate, I see the evangelicals making moral arguments instead of “The law is the law.” Now, I disagree with those moral arguments, and I am willing to engage in those arguments.

            But there was and sometimes still is a dehumanizing language accompanying the gay marriage argument.
            The gay marriage argument was primarily about the moral justification of the law. There were also arguments about the constitutionality of the law…which are indeed different arguments.
            As for “What makes your sense of ‘unjust laws’ any more legitimate … well, again, I’m taking my argument to the fray as to why the immigration law is unjust. Conservatives are not making the argument that the law is just–they are only expressing the attitude of “The law is the law” otherwise known as legal positivism. Legal positivism has its place, particularly for police officers and lower courts. But high courts and legislatures must consider constitutionality, the spirit of the law, and humanity.

          • Arkuy The Great

            You have not persuaded that your sense of what is “unjust” is any more acute than the one I expressed above. The point being that you are getting into subjective arguments, heavily leavened with epiplexis, that matter little to what is “the facts” and even less to what is “the law”. It is purely a political exercise which, while it may inform the laws when passed legislatively, matter little once enacted.

          • JS

            So, the morality of a law matters little once enacted? Even Jim Crow laws? Abortion laws?

          • Arkuy The Great

            Once passed and court tested it is settled. Morality has zero bearing on your obligation to comply. There are channels for changing it and the perceived morality or immorality of a situation may inform the legislative debate.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            So take the issue of Prohibition. Say I am for prohibition and I say, “The law is the law.” Is that adequate?

          • Arkuy The Great

            Until the Volstead Act was repealed and the 21st Amendment passed the answer was “Yes”.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Well, people made moral arguments as to why the prohibition law as indeed immoral, and so the country changed the law. All I’m asking is for conservatives to make a moral argument about the justification of the law. Instead, they are avoiding the argument to maintain keep a law in place. They should be making a moral argument to keep the law in place, but they are not. Their argument hinges upon “the law being the law.”

          • Arkuy The Great

            So moral persuasion may have played a role in changing the political calculus to enable repealing that law; a change I am in total agreement with (hic!). Still, until that point you had better take a swig from that jug out of view of local police and know how to “hold your liquor”. That is, if avoiding public legal sanction is most important to you.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Read MLK’s “Letter From Birmingham Jail.” He articulates what a just and unjust law is, when to follow them, and how to disobey unjust laws. And if you read Henry David Thoreau, would likely see that one is morally obligated to disobey an unjust law.

          • Arkuy The Great

            Introduce those arguments as your legal defense and woe is you!

          • M. J. DeMenna

            No crap, but we are not in a legal defense. We are in a republic trying to have a debate. And that debate is constantly pushed aside by “the law is the law” attitude. I’m not saying that immigration law isn’t the law. I’m saying that it is unjust. And the only way to get conservatives to argue the justification of the law is for them to get off the legal positivism. We are not in a court; we are in a debate forum. Saying “legal defense” as if we are in a court of law is just another rhetorical trick to avoid an argument about the justification law.

          • Arkuy The Great

            I do not see why it is incumbent to “argue the justification of the law” when it already exists. It will be the case until it is removed. Rather, it is incumbent upon you to show, persuasively, that current law is unjust. Merely repeating that word incessantly does not make it so.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Fine, new conditions have appeared. A sizable number of children will likely die if we send them back. We are seeing the ramification of the law previously enacted. I thought it is quite clear that the lives of children would cause us to reconsider the law, but I guess the dehumanizing language of “illegal illegal illegal” is pretty powerful stuff. And that gets us back to my original point about the language.

          • Arkuy The Great

            “A sizable number of children will likely die if we send them back.”

            And how many of them are likely to become gangland “shorties” once they are free to go here? 12-17 year olds are the Crips and Bloods favorite foot soldiers because of their limited exposure to legal sanction. They can be just as dangerous as their older colleagues in the meantime.

            “lives of children”

            There’s that argument by epiplexis again.

            “dehumanizing language of “illegal illegal illegal””

            That’s a strawman argument.

            Again, you do not persuade.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            It’s not a straw man argument; it’s not even an argument. It’s an observation of the dominant term used to refer to a biological human being.

            There is an actual fact that children will die if we send them back to their countries. Hence, “the lives of the children.” “Children” also refers more closely to the objective, biological fact of the human being. Whereas, “illegal” disregards biological fact, erodes empathy and clear thinking about the moral situation.

            Whereas, “how many of them are likely to become gangland ‘shorties’” is pure speculation based on racial stereotypes; i.e., racism. How many of them will live productive lives if they go to their parents here in the states, and CEOs and executives stop exploiting their labor and pay middle class wages? And now we see the utility of dehumanizing language! Perhaps not. Oh well. So goes the world.
            But, nonetheless, you have finally agreed with me, and are now arguing the moral justifications of the law. Great. That’s all I really asked for.

          • Arkuy The Great

            It is a strawman argument. You raise the specter of “dehumanizing language” in order to shoot it down, meanwhile engaging in charged language usage of your own; “erodes empathy”, “racial” (how?), “exploiting labor”, etc.

            There is no philosophical argument going on here but, rather, shouting past one another rhetorically like dueling mobs at a political rally.

            And I leave off on a good note.

          • Arkuy The Great

            The “conservative” argument is that existing laws be respected and enforced. In that case “the law being the law” is all that is necessary. Your argument is relevant when generating a political movement to effect changes to the law which is a very different consideration. In that case the morality argument can inform then debate.

          • JS

            So morality had zero bearing on Rosa Parks obligation to comply? On the Sons of Liberty’s obligation to comply with the Tea tax?

            I am not saying that people crossing the border illegally are in the same group, but I think the legislative debate has to start somewhere, and thats in judging the morality of the laws were are forced to comply with.

            BTW, i am conservative on immigration policy. I support Obama’s record high deportation record (which the right never mentions or praises), a border fence, and EXTREME sanctions on any employer hiring undocumented workers. But the vast majority of the people coming are seeking a better life for their families. I cannot judged people like that too harshly.

          • Arkuy The Great

            You break the law you face the consequences. That’s the fact. And the aforementioned parties recognized that and paid the necessary prices. Or do you deny that? Do you think that one’s perception of “unjust” makes the obligation of legal compliance and the penalty for abrogation go away.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            You are disregarding debate about the justification of the law, and minimizing the legitimacy of debate about law with the “one’s own perception of ‘unjust.’” Debate is central to how democracies and republics work–we debate the justifications of the laws. Everyone brings “one’s own perception” to the fray and debates, instead of hiding behind legal positivism. Stating that “the law is the law” is not argument about the justification of the law. It is an Appeal to Law logical fallacy.

          • JS

            “Do you think that one’s perception of “unjust” makes the obligation of legal compliance and the penalty for abrogation go away” – No, next question?

            But there has always been leeway in the penalty for abrogation, hasn’t there?

            Any the actual laws being broken here may be in dispute: i.e. refugee status.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            You didn’t express a sense of what is “unjust.” In fact, aside from a line or two about conservatives thinking profit is more important than the lives of children, I haven’t accreted a moral argument on the justification of the law. You are not arguing the justification of the law–you are arguing that the law’s existences makes it just..

          • Arkuy The Great

            Of course I did not express such a thing. It is purely subjective. One person’s “unjust” is another’s “all right-thinking people believe so”. You may not like the opposing view but that alone does not make it “unjust” or wrong.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            I would just like to hear the opposing view irrespective of the law. That’s what I’m asking for. I’m just not seeing a moral argument that isn’t already conditioned by existing law. The argument should make the law just, not the other way around.

          • Arkuy The Great

            The law is already made. You are trying to make a moral argument why an existing law should be ignored or unenforced. There is no such argument to be made anywhere.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Are there not new conditions?

            Laws were made after the Civil War, but what happened later, due to the new laws, created a new form a slavery. Are we not allowed to bring in new arguments over the justification of the laws since the conditions changed.

            So, when new conditions come around and following the law would create violent consequences, do not the justifications of the law come under question. Again, conservatives are hiding behind the law in order to not face their own conscience.

          • Arkuy The Great

            If there are then it may be possible to form a political movement to lobby lawmakers.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Yes, and change the laws with debate, like a good democracy is suppose to. You are just not see how “the law is the law” attitude is nothing more than a rhetorical device to cut off democratic debate. We are not arguing in a court of law; we are arguing has voters who should have equal part in the shaping of laws.

        • StilllHere

          The status doesn’t discriminate based on age. Who determines the break between child and adult in your world?

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Well, first off, the dehumanizing language applies to adults as well as children. But the linguistic effort to criminalize children is obviously repugnant.

            Legally, under 18 is a child. I think evolutionary biologists would say that the human childhood last up to 25, but I’m cool with 18.

            And I wouldn’t use the phrase “in your world.” I’m at least aware of language’s primary mode is idea forming, while communication is secondary. (Linguists are split on what is primary and what is secondary.) Nonetheless, language is idea forming on some level, and language gives people away.

          • StilllHere

            That would have to be codified in the law, until then it’s just one person’s moral judgement.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            But it is a moral judgment brought to the fray. Republicans are refusing to make a moral argument and hiding behind an attitude of “The law is the law.” That’s my point. Just make an argument!

      • JS

        Why illegal and not undocumented? Are you an illegal driver because you most definitely broke the speed limit law any number of times the last time you drove?

        • Salty

          If I am driving above the speed limit, I am driving illegally. I could logically be called and illegal driver. Next question.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            But we can make moral justifications as to why the speed limit is a just law.

            Conservatives are not doing that with the immigration issue. The law is justification enough, according to them. That’s not an argument. You just have to think a little more deeply about these things.

          • JS

            Ok, so now every time you mention anyone driving, will you call them “illegal Drivers”?

          • Salty

            Yes – that would be accurate.

          • JS

            Cool, let me know peoples reaction to you when you call them that, I’d be interested in seeing how they take it.

          • Salty

            How they take it is not relevant. The law is relevant.

          • JS

            So, you will continue to call people who break immigration law illegals, but will not call people who break speeding laws illegals. Got it.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t think you got it.

          • Salty

            Reread my comments. I indicated that calling speeding drivers “illegal drivers” would be accurate. If you break driving laws you are an “illegal driver”. Break immigration laws, you are an “illegal immigrant”. Got it now?

          • JS

            And I said “Cool”, and I got it, but asked would you now call every person you know or mention as driving as an “illegal driver”? Not whether it was accurate to call them that, but if you now would call them that in conversation.

            It’s accurate, but I doubt you will use the term as often as “illegal immigrant” is used.

          • Salty

            Yes I would. and, every speeder / illegal driver should be penalized. If we have a rule, we need to enforce it, or drop it.

          • JS

            So, anyone who goes 56 in a 55 should be penalized? 31 in a 30? Or is there leeway in how the law is enforced?

          • Salty

            No – enforce the law or change the law. If I got a ticket for 36 in a 35 i would not complain. It would be my fault. I would man up and take responsibility.

          • JS

            So, you have known that the speed limit has been violated for probably as long as you have been driving. Have you complained before about “illegal drivers” who drive “66 in a 65″?

            I seriously doubt that, and I doubt your claim of not complaining about a ticket for 36 in a 35.

    • Guest

      The children are not here; they are here illegally. They are illegal aliens. What’s so confusing about that? My wife is not American but I am. She is a permanent resident alien. (green card holder) She did it the right way. We could have moved here and just ignored the process. We didn’t – we did it the right way. They should to. Also – how is Mexico not liable for the children? They are in Mexico when they enter the US. Hand them gently back to Mexico. Mexico needs to control their borders.

      • M. J. DeMenna

        So, the illegality is justification for sending children back to a violent situation? Do you see how your language enables you to disregard raw humanity?

        • warryer

          So the law doesn’t matter if it crosses the line of raw humanity?

          Why not go through the proper channels to address this situation?

          • M. J. DeMenna

            MLK was asked “Why not wait?” And he answered with one of the most famous sentences ever written. But I’ll just say, would you wait to pass through the “proper channels” if your life and your kids’ lives were at stake?

            Edmund Burke, one of the chief conservative philosophers thought the people of France should wait for diplomatic solutions, but when your kids are starving, and you can’t rob your neighbor because they have nothing and their kids are starving, a revolution happens.

            Is their not urgency in the world?
            Some basic empathy would allow people to see this, but the dehumanizing language of “illegal, illegal, illegal” erodes empathy, and people act on attitude, not a moral rationale.

          • warryer

            Are you going to sign up to house some of these people in your own home? If not, then you have no standing ground. Remove your emotions from this discussion.

            The law is the law and that is what we have to go by to determine what actions are acceptable or not in our country.

            Should we make an exception to the law “just this once” then the strength of the law is broken. We made an exception once, why not make another? Then at that point why not just throw out the whole system since no one seems to be using it anyway?

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Profit over people wins again.
            Well, I see the slippery-slope logical fallacy,
            a false dilemma logical fallacy, and, of course, the appeal to law logical fallacy.
            Your middle paragraph says it all. You go by the law because you can’t determine the morality of the event. In essence, society and its laws programs your morality instead of individual thinking.

          • warryer

            I go by the law because morality is different from person to person.

            Every person has a different idea of good/bad right/wrong. But which one is the True one?

          • M. J. DeMenna

            Yes, everybody does have a different argument about morality. But they still must bring their arguments to the fray and have a debate, like in a good democracy. Avoiding moral arguments by hiding behind the law, and not considering the justifications of the law is something else. That’s how tyrannical governments maintain power.

          • warryer

            Yes. And there is a proper channel for which to have these arguments. There are legal provisions to change the system.

            As it currently stands; these people are, under the law, illegal immigrants. What their background is does not change that fact.

          • M. J. DeMenna

            And the moral argument is: do we follow the law and send these children back to a violent situation, or do we set them up with their parents or foster parent in this country?
            What should we do?

            Now, once you get into that argument, we will find out what a just law would be. This gets us back to the linguistic argument. It is bad faith to go into a moral argument while already criminalizing children. The criminality should be set aside while we hash out the moral justifications of sending children back to violent situations. But the language of “illegal, illegal, illegal” preconditions the moral argument. Morality exists irrespective of written law. The laws and following the laws can be moral, but that’s a different argument.

      • M. J. DeMenna

        And it’s interesting how the argument of “America needs to control their borders” shifted to “Mexico needs to control their borders.” I’ve heard this several times now. I guess this is because boarder patrol is catching people, so they are shifting the argument to “Mexico needs to control their border.” That’s interesting; I’ll have to think about that more.
        Also, are you willing to put the lives of children in danger based upon Mexico’s mishandlings?

    • Salty

      The children are not here legally; they are here illegally. They are illegal aliens. What’s so confusing about that?

      My wife is not American but I am. She is a permanent resident alien. (green card holder) She did it the right way. We could have moved here and just ignored the process. We didn’t – we did it the right way. They should to.

      Also – how is Mexico not liable for the children? They are in Mexico when they enter the US. Hand them gently back to Mexico. Mexico needs to control their borders.

    • Zenplatypus

      Oh brother. This is precisely the sort of witless sophistry that has turned university literature departments into intellectual backwaters. We could just as easily take the opposite tack:

      The repetition of the sign reconditions the nature of the signified in
      the eyes of the signifier. E.g., “child, child, child”
      reconditions the “undocumented immigrant” into a vulnerable innocent. In fact, the signified
      “child” conceals the referent “undocumented immigrant.” The legal fact of an undocumented
      immigrant is lost in a fog of concepts like “boarders [sic],” “victim,” and “violence.”
      The language self-deludes the signifier in order to blind him or
      herself from the legitimate issues of legality and resource allocation.

      This is a complex issue. Flimsy claims to moral authority that amount to casuistry are no better than reflexive calls to seal the border.

      • M. J. DeMenna

        Child refers to a biological fact. “Undocumented immigrant” entails concepts and laws. Moral decisions and just laws depend upon a reality without the preconditions of laws.

        The opposite track you refer to has preconditions to the moral argument. That’s why you can’t take the opposite track. That’s why the linguistic deconstruction is also necessary.

  • hennorama

    Conservative columnist George Will downplayed the “border crisis” recently. As reported on the conservative website nationalreview.com, in part:

    “We ought to say to these children, ‘Welcome to America. You’re going to go to school, get a job, and become Americans,’” Will said during an appearance on Fox News Sunday.

    Will dismissed objections that the country can’t assimilate the 57,000 unaccompanied children from Central America who have been appearing at the U.S. border with Mexico.

    “We have 3,141 counties in this country,” he said. “That would be 20 per county. The idea that we can’t assimilate these eight-year-old criminals with their teddy bears is preposterous.”

    Source:
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/383865/george-will-idea-we-cant-assimilate-these-eight-year-old-criminals-their-teddy-bears

  • DJJS

    What a sad, one-sided “lefty” panel, especially for a week-in-review show. If you, Tom, want to have these guests any other day, so be it. When you spoke in Manchester, VT in Nov., Tom, you asked me if I felt the show was getting a bit “lefty,” and I said yes (note: I voted for Obama in 2008 and initially backed universal healthcare!). Well, you’re in danger of losing this 5-year listener. Bryan citing Penelope Cruz’s backing the Palestinians and Ann’s comments defending Bill Clinton not killing Bin Laden were senseless with Brian’s being pathetic. I tuned out fully by the end of the first 1/2 hour.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Was there a smidgeon of discussion today about the latest Louis Lerner’s latest email revelations? Lerner was the head of supposedly ‘non-partisan’ department. Yet she glaringly displayed her bias in the latest emails.

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/emails-reveal-potty-mouth-behind-lois-lerners-inquisition-against-the-right-examiner-editorial/article/2551523

    • Ray in VT

      So obviously considering some elements of the GOP crazy means that one improperly did one’s job? It seems to me that she just accepts the reality of parts of modern “conservative” America.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        If she is a partisan she is unqualified for the position she held.

        • Ray in VT

          So she can’t have opinions? Is anyone who has an opinion a partisan, and if so, then good luck finding anyone to fill such a position.

          I see nothing objectionable in questioning the sanity of right wing radio talkers and their caller fans. Many of them seem to live in a realm unconstrained by facts and how they relate to reality.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Rush Limbaugh has opinions. How would you feel if Rush was hired for the same position and then groups like Media Matters had their tax exempt status revoked and then donors to Media Matters were suddenly audited?

          • Ray in VT

            Everybody has opinions. Comparing a career bureaucrat to a notorious blabber mouth who is proud of making Americans dumber is a false equivalence by a very large measure of degree.

            Considering that I do not feel that Media Matters, or any such similar conservative group, is Constitutionally entitled to a tax exempt status, and that groups applying for such status should be properly vetted to ensure that they are qualified for such a status, especially if they are practically announcing themselves to be in line with highly partisan politics, then I don’t have a problem with groups getting investigated. I think that more such groups should get grilled, because I think it likely that most groups applying for such a status are not really “social welfare” groups.

          • harverdphd

            If Rush makes Americans dumber it’s because they are already dumb from our failed pubic education system.

          • JS

            Ray, you know partisans are only those with opposing opinions.

        • HonestDebate1

          The defenders know in their hearts they haven’t a leg to stand in. No wonder she destroyed the other emails.

    • hennorama

      WftC — is “Louis Lerner” Lois Lerner’s evil twin?

      That doesn’t quite qualify for the list of Typos/Freudian Slips/Autocorrections That Make Me Smile, sorry.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        LOL. One is enough.

  • Obamunism 2.0
    • JS

      Down from what?

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — yet another opinion masquerading as fact.

      No doubt you read the opinion piece in its entirety, and noticed this disclaimer at the bottom of Page 2 (emphasis added):

      This article represents the opinion of a contributor and not necessarily that of TheStreet or its editorial staff.”

      • jipengipe

        The definition of “the workforce” is arbitrary. Defining it is an opinion.

        • hennorama

          jipengipe — thank you for your response, which might itself be the definition of an arbitrary opinion, in my opinion.

          • jipengipe

            Since you’re a scholar on the definition of the workforce why don’t you defend the one used for the stated employment rate?

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — TYFYR.

            I have never claimed or implied any expertise similar to your inaccurate premise, making your question moot.

            What I have done in this thread is to point out opinion masquerading as fact. Your own comment implies your agreement that the linked item is an opinion, not a fact.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • jipengipe

            Again, in your mind, I’m sure the fact that we have a plummeting workforce participation rate and SSDI participation at all time highers are simply “opinions.” How interesting.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — See my refutation of your “fact” claim above.

            That you are “sure” about lines of thought that you ascribe to me, and that I have not expressed or implied, is telling.

            “How interesting,” indeed.

          • jipengipe

            The drop since 2009? How inconvenient for you.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — You first wrote (emphasis added), “The workforce participation rate is falling rapidly,” and after that was refuted, you now want to point to “The drop since 2009?”

            Nice try.

          • jipengipe

            I was talking in terms of a longer time frame, i.e. Mr. Obama’s Presidency. When it’s at its lowest level since 1979 and has had a relatively significant decline during the Obama Presidency (more rapid than any other recent Presidency), yes I think the adverb “rapidly” is appropriate.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — Another suggestion: stand behind your own words, or use your “mental capability” to communicate more clearly.

          • jipengipe

            I see we are in agreement that this is the worst Presidency since Reagan in terms of growing the workforce. Thanks for confirming.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — wow. Another new claim?

            Which will you finally land on:

            “any other recent Presidency”
            vs.”Presidency since Reagan”

            “workforce participation rate” vs. “growing the workforce”

            Are those pairs of terms supposed to be equivalents, according to your “mental capability”?

            Another suggestion: Use consistent terminology.

          • jipengipe

            Thanks for the comments on the internet prose. Still glad we agree on Obama’s dismal record growing the workforce.

          • hennorama

            Repeating:

            jipengipe — Since “dismal” is an opinion, and “growing the workforce” is undefined, no agreement is present.

            Perhaps the use of clear and consistent terms, accompanied by data, is in order.

          • jipengipe

            You seem to think that there’s a definition of unemployment that’s written on a stone tablet somewhere. The point (which clearly eludes your mental capability) is that there is not.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — well, well, an ad hominem. What took so long?

            Well done, truly.

          • jipengipe

            No ad hominem. You don’t understand that there are multiple unemployment definitions. Obviously.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — another false claim.

            Obviously.

        • HonestDebate1

          Exactly. There’s a list:

          Fair Share
          Corporations
          Interruptions
          Living wage
          Revenue

    • nj_v2

      Real trolling is up 8.7%

      • StilllHere

        You are driving it, bet you could get it to double digits.

        • pete18

          But you forget, his and Jeff68′s definition of trolling is: “people who post a lot that disagree with me.”

          • jefe68

            The interesting thing about your comment is one could use it to describe you and your right wing cronies to the tee. You’re not interested in hearing anyone else’s point of view other than your own.

            I’m always fascinated how the right thinks it’s correct or that somehow their ideology trumps anything anyone else has to say or how they think. The level of the belligerence that you lot spew on this forum on a daily basis is astonishing.
            The swagger, and the hubris is also duly noted.

          • pete18

            Good, I get it you don’t like right wingers. So am I wrong about what your definition of a troll is? Please correct me if I am.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — offhand supposition:

            Perhaps some on “the right” believe their views are correct due to a subliminal influence from other meanings of the word “right.”

          • HonestDebate1

            Most of us who reflect with open minds to distill informed opinions think we are right. I always thought that was pretty much universal. You seem to be implying the left does not believe their own message. That hits home. You may be right.

          • HonestDebate1

            I see a lot of replies from you and your ilk that ignore entire points and merely say they are morons, or it’s a bunch of malarky or it smells like mendacity. The arrogance lies with those who don’t even try to refute the point and skip straight to insulting the commenter.

          • pete18

            Oh come on, that is intelligent intellectual discourse. It only becomes “trolling” when you put an “R” in front of it.

          • nj_v2

            Anyone defending drug-addled gasbag Flush Limpballs without qualification doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.

            Anyone who’s been so factually inaccurate so many times doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.

          • HonestDebate1

            Only the drug addled gasbags maintain Rush is a drug addled gasbag. It’s really quite absurd. But thanks for illustrating my point so vividly.

    • jipengipe

      The workforce participation rate is falling rapidly. SSDI participation is at an all time high (and the trust is nearly broke). I assume these are “opinions” as they are inconvenient.

      • hennorama

        jipengipe — yeah, except NO.

        The Labor Force Participation Rate (LFPR) is not “falling rapidly,” unless “falling rapidly” = “was higher in July 2014 than it was in Oct. 2013, Dec. 2013, Apr. 2014, May 2014, and June 2014,” of course.

        Source:
        http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

        I’d look into your SSDI claim, but why waste the time?

        • jipengipe

          You look at the trend since the beginning of the Obama Presidency and see that as good. Interesting.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — One suggestion: put the shovel down.

            Nowhere in this thread have I written the word “good.”

            You not only claim that I “look at the trend since the beginning of the Obama Presidency,” despite my citing only more recent data, you also claim (falsely) that I “see that as good.”

            “Interesting,” indeed.

          • jipengipe

            No, you’re making a claim interpreting positive data in the workforce participation rate. I suppose that is one way to look at a 5 year downward trend.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — Sorry, Charlie.

            I made no claim, but instead simply and clearly refuted your claim.

            You first wrote (emphasis added), “The workforce participation rate is falling rapidly,” and after that was refuted, you now want to point to “a 5 year downward trend”?

            Again, nice try.

          • jipengipe

            Yup, that is an awfully rapid decline since Obama has taken office. That is the claim. Care to argue against it?

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — thank you for tacitly admitting that your initial claim was refuted, and that you are now making a new claim.

          • jipengipe

            Apologies for not defining the time frame for the rapid decline. Glad we agree on Mr. Obama’s dismal record growing the workforce. Perhaps some more “pro work” policies are in order.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — Since “dismal” is an opinion, and “growing the workforce” is undefined, no agreement is present.

            Perhaps the use of clear and consistent terms, accompanied by data, is in order.

          • jipengipe

            This is called the “pounding the table” portion of the argument when Barack Obama’s economic record has been clearly demonstrated.

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — since only one aspect of the economy has been extensively discussed, it is false (again) to claim “Barack Obama’s economic record has been clearly demonstrated.”

          • jipengipe

            I thought he was focused on jobs? Or is it gay marriage, climate change or amnesty these days?

          • hennorama

            jipengipe — again, your own words are demonstrably false.

            You chose them, using your “mental capability,” despite repeated suggestions for clear and consistent communication.

        • harverdphd

          chicken?

          • hennorama

            Cuckoo.

    • nj_v2

      • jipengipe

        I think we’ve at least established that it takes significant spin to define this Presidency as an economic victory. But that’s not really what it’s supposed to be about anyway.

        • harverdphd

          Disabuse us.

      • StilllHere

        As you are a known liar and pathetic troll, you’ll have to produce a screen shot.

    • Obamunism 2.0

      Two points:

      The US Dept. of Commerce does not take into account the millions of Americans who have stopped looking for work. They’re simply not counted.

      Former CEO of GE, Jack Welch, has stated that the govt. intentionally puts out false unemployment numbers.

      Does anybody honestly believe that unemployment is only 6.2%?

      • hennorama

        Obamunism 2.0 — Two points:

        1. As [MrNutso] so eloquently asked you earlier, “Tso?”

        The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) also does not include retirees and dead people in their calculations. The BLS does, however, provide a number of alternative measures of unemployment.

        In addition, there really is no single perfect measurement available that provides a complete and accurate representation of the extremely varied and complex US labor market, which is one reason for using both the Establishment Survey, and the Household Survey, and the fact that each survey has its own definition of “Employed.”

        2. Jack Welch’s opinion is merely an opinion.

        Regarding Mr.Welch’s opinion, from fivethirtyeight.com (emphasis added):

        Members of Congress demanded an investigation, and they got one: The Census Bureau’s Office of Inspector General looked into the issue.

        Six months later, the results are in: The investigation “did not find any evidence to support allegations that supervisors in the Philadelphia Regional Office manipulated, or attempted to manipulate, the unemployment rate prior to the 2012 presidential election,” the report concludes. (The report does recommend a few procedural changes to make the data more reliable, however.)

        Much of the report focuses on the details of the fraud accusations and why they’re unfounded. (Among the more interesting tidbits: Data collected by the implicated worker actually tended to push the unemployment rate up, not down. And in any case, he was fired more than a year before the controversial pre-election report.) More interesting to DataLab readers, however, may be the report’s detailed explanation for how the monthly jobs numbers are calculated — and how hard they would be to fake.

        A quick refresher: The unemployment rate is based on the Current Population Survey, a monthly survey of about 60,000 households. (The payroll figures — the “nonfarm jobs” added or lost each month — are based on an entirely different survey.) The Census Bureau conducts the survey, then sends the data to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which does the math and publishes the results.

        All of the survey results, down to the individual interview records, are released to the public, which means falsifying the report isn’t as simple as just tweaking a couple numbers. Someone would have to alter (or make up) the individual interviews. That would require a pretty massive conspiracy: According to the Census Bureau’s calculations, reducing the unemployment rate by three-tenths of a percentage point (the amount of the October 2012 decline) would require 78 census surveyors to work together to switch everyone they interviewed from “unemployed” to “employed.” That kind of fraud would almost certainly be detected by higher-ups at the Census Bureau, which means they would need to be in on the conspiracy, too.

        But perhaps the best evidence against a conspiracy theory is this: For all of Welch’s skepticism, that October jobs report didn’t turn out to be that much of an outlier. The unemployment rate has continued to fall in the months since the election, and a wide range of other indicators — many of them private-sector sources that are presumably outside the Chicago guys’ control — have shown the same trend of gradual improvement.

        Source:
        http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-jobs-numbers-are-wrong-but-dont-blame-obamas-chicago-guys/

  • marygrav

    When Ebola hit West Africa, I knew it would come to the United States. Obamacare is more essential than ever because insurance will insure that people won’t sit home and self medicate; thus creating a major epidemic in the Western Hemesphere like the Black Plague in Europe in the Middle Ages.

    The US is only suffering from pay-back on its Southern border. These children are running from the result of the US policy on Communism which began with the Dulles Brother and President Dwight D. Einsenhower. The US thinks of itself as Madeline Albright states: The Essentil Nation. While at the same time it has caused more chaos in the world since 1945 than any so-called Communist every could have the fire power to do. We have become in essence the Enemy of the Human Race.

    Unless John Kerry ceases and deceses with all conversation of a Two-State Solution with Isreal and instructs the next Secretary of States to do so, there will be no one left alive in GAZA. No Israeli Prime Minister has allowed the Two-State Solution to succeed. Everytime it becomes a possiblity, all hell breaks lose for the Palestianians. We are causing Ethnic Cleansing in Palestinians by insisting on a Two-State Solution.

    The US government accepts and looks the other way when American Zionist Jihadis, mostly Jewish go over to join the IDF, while arresting other Americans like Jose Pedia, torturing them and driving him insane, while American Jew, chiefly from New York or so the BBC says, can go abroad and fight Israel’s enmies, which always seems to be the Palestinians. Hamas has been declared a terrorist group, not because it has every harmed US interests like Al Qaeda, but because AIPAC has forced its will on Congress.

    The US is less effective abroad because they see the disrespect that President recieves from the US Congress. John Boehner thinks he is smart but all he is doing is playing into the hands of Putin by showing him how a black man can garner no respect even as president. This is why Putin, the Russian President, doe not want American style governace, with good cause. The Office of the President deserves respect no matter who is sitting in Office.

    Netanyahu because of the power of the American Zionist Council (AIPAC) knows that he can dictate who John Kerry talks too. Kerry is wasting his time. Even if all the tunnels are closed down or neutralized; and even if all the rockets stop, nothing will ever come of it. Gaza is a concentration camp, similar to the Warsaw Ghetto, and the only thing that freed the Jews inside was death.

    Since 1999, I became alert to the fact that Nazism slowly took over our government. I am beginning to understand that the Nazis had an uncanny ability to predict the future. That is all I will say at this time. But Lawrence Rees’ The Nazis: A Warning From History, both the video and the book, shows and tells.

    Black people understand what oppression is. Keeping people walled up in a ghetto limiting their potential; limiting their food and water; then coming to kill them like shooting fish in a barrel, is wrong, no matter how the Oppressor has suffered. When there was no social media, internet than Israeli had the patent on suffering and ill-treatment. We were all prisoners of the Holocaust and were expected to hate both the Nazis and the Arabs. But when we cannot tell the Nazis from the Jews, we loose all perspective. It is unfair to say the Jews because it is too easy to hate Jews because of our religion and our own class relations. It is the Netanyahus and the Neocons of the world that is causing the Chaos in the Middle East because they want their cake and to eat it in peace on all the land, at the expense of the Palestinians.

    Bill Clinton is taking a lesson from Jonah 4:9-11:

    But the Lord replied, “Is it right for you to be angry?”

    5 Jonah had gone out and sat down at a
    place east of the city. There he made himself a shelter, sat in its shade and waited to see what would happen to the city. 6 Then the Lord God provided a leafy plant[a] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. 7 But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. 8 When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, “It would be
    better for me to die than to live.”

    9 But God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?” “It is,” he said. “And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.”

    10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

    Is only American life, and Israeli life–life with living?

  • nj_v2

    Too bad the show didn’t take a moment to note the passing of one of the best reporters NPR had.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/28/336081618/margot-adler-an-npr-journalist-for-three-decades-dies

    Margot Adler, An NPR Journalist For Three Decades, Dies
    by EYDER PERALTA
    July 28, 2014 1:46 PM ET

    Margot Adler, one of the signature voices on NPR’s airwaves for more than three decades, died Monday at her home in New York City. She was 68 and had been battling cancer.

    Margot joined the NPR staff as a general assignment reporter in 1979. She went on to cover everything from the beginnings of the AIDS epidemic to confrontations involving the Ku Klux Klan in Greensboro, N.C., to the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

    “Her reporting was singular and her voice distinct,” Margaret Low Smith, NPR’s vice president for news, said in an announcement to staff. “There was almost no story that Margot couldn’t tell.”

    The granddaughter of renowned Viennese psychiatrist Alfred Adler, Margot was born in Little Rock, Ark., but spent most of her life in Manhattan.

    More recently, Margot reported on cultural affairs and the arts. She landed the first U.S. radio interview with author J.K. Rowling, and she recently released Out for Blood, a meditation on society’s fascination with vampires. A longer version of that essay was published as a book called Vampires Are Us.…

    (snipped)

    • harverdphd

      Best…based on what?

      • nj_v2

        I hear little squeaky noises.

        • HonestDebate1

          No offense NJ but comments don’t make sounds. They must be in your head.

    • hennorama

      nj_v2 — thanks for bringing this to our attention.

      May Ms. Adler rest in peace.

  • SteveTheTeacher

    While much media coverage has reported on the US and the EU increasing sanctions on Russia for allegations that they have aided Ukrainian rebels, few mainstream media outlets in the US are reporting on the fact that the critique of the UN and Amnesty International for the US complicity in human rights violations through the re-arming of Israeli military. The Pentagon announcement came shortly following the Israeli bombing of a UN shelter for Palestinian refugees.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6i5IvMZGEY

    • hennorama

      SteveTheTeacher — at least the fake news media covered the issue:

      http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/ythuz7/a-long-weekend-of-peace

      • HonestDebate1

        The absurd moral equivalence, the failure to mention most we were replenishing the defensive Iron Dome capabilities, the failure to mention Hamas violated the cease fire after 90 minutes and the failure to give the same treatment to our giving missiles back to Hamas after finding them in a school are the reasons it’s called a fake news source.

    • STS

      Steve the teacher, I hope you are also Steve the Learner,
      because you miss the distinction between deliberate attack on civilians (by Hamas) and the unfortunate errors and misses that occur in war. Hamas shoots its rockets in the vicinity of schools, hospital and mosques. It stores rockets in these places, has booby-trapped a UN facility and has tunnels under it. Not seeing the difference and calling such a tragic event a “human right violation” by Israel rather than by Hamas, suggests ignorance. Learn something, Teacher.

      • JS

        The Israeli’s know that Hamas puts weapons near civilian populations (like the IRA did, etc.), and yet they still bomb these installations, knowing full well that civilians will be killed.

        To call it unfortunate errors and misses is disingenuous.

        And human rights on one side can be discussed without having to bring up the other side.

        • HonestDebate1

          It’s on Hamas.

        • STS

          HI JS, see my response above to steve the teacher. Here is paragraph that addresses your point specifically:

          Hamas has built over the years miles of tunnels, paved with Israeli supplied concrete and lighted with Israeli supplied power. They could have built homes, schools and shelters for their civilians. But that is not the priority of these zealots. Israel’s success is in its civil defense. But then Israelis care about the lives of their civilians. Big difference. In very difficult fighting conditions, they have done more than any military ever in trying to prevent
          harm to Palestinian civilians. They cannot not attack Hamas launchers because they risk civilians – it gives Hamas the power to attack without response. But then Hamas
          “wins” on points either way, which is what they count on – the propaganda value of having decent people criticize Israel rather than Hamas.

          • JS

            Isn’t it possible for decent people to criticize both Israel and Hamas?

            My point is you cannot call Palestinian civilian deaths caused by Israel “accidents” or “misses”. They purposefully target areas where they know they will kill civilians. That is not their aim, but it is the direct result and it cannot be called an “accident”. An “accident” would be targeting a house, and hitting the nearby school by mistake. Taking out an apartment block, with civilians inside, because one guy fired a useless, ineffective missile is a deliberate act. They civilian deaths resulting from such action are not an “accident”.

            I come from this not as a supporter of Hamas, and I liken it to the IRA in ireland (same in kind, if not in degree). As a force looking to expel what they consider a foreign invader, an insurgent force has no choice but to operate in secret, hiding weapons wherever they can. What do you think the result would be if the IRA (or Hamas) built forts, arms depots, etc. They would be taken out immediately. They DO put their own civilians in danger and that is abhorrent.

            Weren’t the weapons cache at Lexington and Concord hidden on a civilian farm?

            I do not support Hamas and its desire to kill Jews, or any civilians, even their own. But I see the desire to get rid of the “state” of Israel similar to the IRA position of wanting to get rid of the “state” of Northern Ireland. I don’t support this aim, but I understand it.

          • Don_B1

            The latest twist in “explaining” the civilian deaths in Gaza by Israelis, notably a rabbi in NYC, is that by electing members of Hamas to their government, all civilians in Gaza are no longer civilians, but combatants, and thus subject to attack at will by Israeli military forces.

            WOW!

            See an interview with the rabbi on last night’s All In / Chris Hayes on MSNBC.

          • STS

            The rabbi talks nonsense. No one in Israel considers this to be the case. Extremists in all faiths are bad news.

          • Don_B1

            There were similar comments from people in Israel (sorry, no link at this time at least).

            But they seem to have been squelched?

          • STS

            I certainly hope no “squelching” is going on here.

          • STS

            Absolutely, JS, thoughtful people can find something to criticize in both sides.
            In fact, I write in defense of Israel because there are so many inaccurate and hateful posts that use extreme language when speaking of it and its actions. However, I can easily spend
            an hour criticizing Israel. It is a very vocal and vibrant democracy – and although surrounded by hostile countries with over 100,000 rockets aimed at it -
            it maintains this internal freedom of speech and criticism. I don’t think any “apartment block” was taken out without prior notice to people in the area, and sometimes to people in the building itself (by phone, I don’t know how they do it).
            With over 4,000 air strikes and other
            targeted attacks in a densely populated area, the number of civilian dead and injured is actually relatively low. Reports from Gaza give numbers without distinction between fighters and civilians,
            keep that in mind. Yesterday about 150 fighter surrendered – in underwear, to show they do not carry explosive belts.
            Why is it that you do not hear that for example in the news? Or, that Israel has set up a field hospital in Gaza to treat civilians – and Hamas is preventing them from reaching it. Some did and some were taken to Israeli hospitals. Why don’t they show that in the news?

          • SteveTheTeacher

            “it maintains this internal freedom of speech and criticism.”

            You are wrong:

            Btselem has been blocked from a radio spot naming the Gazan children murdered by Israel.

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israel-bans-radio-advert-listing-names-children-killed-gaza

            The New York Times has been forced to submit reports to Israeli censors:

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/israel-new-york-times-censor_n_5641905.html

          • STS

            Hello JS, absolutely decent people can criticize whatever whomever. Some shots miss their target and can be called tragic
            misses. Sometimes civilians get killed when the target is not missed. There are videos for instance of a car being targeted because a leading Hamas person is in it.
            you can see it being followed and then destroyed once it is out in the open. In other cases attacks were aborted when there were civilians in the vicinity. The worst cases happen when there is no visual feedback. I worry about tanks shooting and artillery, I get the impression they are not that accurate. A deviation of 100 feet can mean death to unintended people. I wish they would avoid using such arms in Gaza.

          • JS

            All of what you say is true, some civilians deaths are accidents and misses, but Israel purposefully targets people or infrastructure knowing full well civilians will be killed in such an attack. I am not saying that the civilians are the target, but it’s not an “accident” or a “miss” that kills these innocent people

      • SteveTheTeacher

        Yes, Hamas has killed 3 innocent people and terrified the nation of Israel. This is a war crime.

        Of the nearly 1500 people killed by Israeli solderes 75 to 80, over 1000, have been innocent civilians, including approximately 300 children. Over 10,000, have been wounded, including thousands of children. Several hundred thousand have been made homeless and/or otherwise displaced. Additionally, the Israeli attacks are putting the entire population of Gaza at risk – wholescale collective punishment – as a result of their attacks that have left Gaza without of electricity, safe drinking water, or cooking full water.These are war crimes, regardless of Israeli government claim that their actions are “unfortunate errors and misses that occur in war.”

        You may disagree with me, and many have. You may launch ad hominem attacks at me, and many have. Fine.

        Amnesty International and the UN Human Rights Commissioner, Navi Pillay, concur that the Israeli government should be held accountable for its crimes against humanity. http://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/1/amnesty_international_us_should_stop_arming

        Try reading the accounts of Israeli soldiers on the IDF policy of letting soldiers vent anger by killing Palestinian civilians.
        http://www.imemc.org/article/68658

        • STS

          Dear Steve the Teacher, brace yourself – suggesting you might learn is not an ad-hominem attack. Your numbers represent Hamas/UN propaganda. Al Jazeera published a full list of names and ages of the people killed and it reveals about 80% are males of Hamas fighting age (sorry I did not keep the link). This does not mean they are all armed fighters, but it certainly puts the lie to the notion that 20% of those killed were children. Not that it makes it much better – the death of a single child is deeply saddening. Israelis are pained and anxious about the toll on innocents in Gaza in addition to anxiety about their own young soldiers facing the risk of injury and death.

          Hamas has built over the years miles of tunnels, paved with Israeli supplied concrete and lighted with Israeli supplied power. They could have built homes, schools and shelters for their civilians. But that is not the priority of these zealots.
          Israel’s success is in its civil defense. But then Israelis care about the lives of their civilians. Big difference. In very difficult fighting conditions, they have done more than any military ever in trying to prevent
          harm to Palestinian civilians. They cannot
          not attack Hamas launchers because they risk civilians – it gives Hamas the power to attack without response. But then Hamas
          “wins” on points either way, which is what they count on – the propaganda value of having decent people criticize Israel rather than Hamas.

          Navi Pillay? The so called “Human rights
          Council?” – they are a travesty, as I hope you know. Some of the worst abusers of human rights sit there, Libya under Qaddafi was about to be elected the chair of the Council, and 80% of their resolutions are not against Iran, Syria, China and other mega abusers, but about Israel. They make a mockery of the idea of human rights.

          • SteveTheTeacher

            “suggesting you might learn is not an ad-hominem attack”

            Where did I say that this was an ad hominem attack?

            I will say, however, that your tone is patronizing and disrespectful.

            My comment regarding ad hominem attacks is that many who defend the crimes against humanity of the Israeli government, rather than engaging in dialog, resort to ad hominem, and in some cases, physical, attacks against those with whom they disagree.

            I suggest that you learn how to better engage in dialog with those who do not share your opinion without seeking to demean them.

            In a recently disclosed tape, former President Bill Clinton spoke of not attacking Osama bin Laden because the attack would have also killed 300 women and children. “That would have made me as bad as him.”

            Yes bin Laden killed many innocents, but Clinton was right. If the US is to kill hundreds of civilians for every suspected terrorist on their list, they become the evil they seek to destroy.

            The Israeli governments actions have made them at least as heinous violators of human rights as the Hamas “terrorists” who they decry.

            You are factually incorrect when you state that 20% of deaths are not children. Over 300 of the approximately 1500 people murdered by the IDF were children (http://www.brecorder.com/top-news/108-pakistan-top-news/186505-nearly-300-palestinian-children-killed-in-gaza-un.html.) Do the math.

            Here’s a link to list with the names and ages of those killed. Add them up yourself: http://www.imemc.org/article/68429

          • northeaster17

            The small threat represented by Hamas towards Israel in no way justifies the way the Israeli’s are destroying the city and the people trapped within Gaza.

          • HonestDebate1

            Small threat?!

      • Beelzebub

        STS: You seem to have missed learning that we all have the privilege of forming our own opinions and conclusions.

  • Ashley

    I LOVE On Point, but I have to say I am incredibly disappointed in what was a small moment on the show today that ultimately has a big impact. I believe On Point have a moral obligation to not give a voice to those who are truly ill-intentioned and hateful, and this afternoon’s show played a caller who essentially blamed Ray Rice’s wife (then fiancée) for the abuse she suffered. You would not give a voice to a caller who states that they believe the Palestinian children being murdered deserve what happens to them for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or for simply being Palestinian, and the way this caller spoke was akin to that. I understand that you can’t know exactly what a caller is going to say until they say it, but that man should have been screened out. His statement that “we don’t know what she did in that elevator” is absolutely deplorable, and he and every person who agrees with that sentiment should be ashamed of themselves. And I want to thank the awesome Ann Simmons for jumping in to answer immediately and say that no one deserves to be acted against violently.

  • Jacob Arnon

    Interesting Black commentators and they all take an anti-Jewish point of view.

    You should change the name of the program to the “Anti-Jewish Point” because that is what you are.

    btw: I worked fro civil right since the early 60′s and did it because as a Jew I felt an affinity with oppresses minorities. It’s really depressing to see the same minorities treating Israeli Jews who are trying to protect their lives from over a billion Muslims turning against them.

    • hennorama

      Jacob Arnon — what the ….?

      What does race/ethnicty/skin color have to do with anything?

      You seem to be drawing a conclusion about “the same minorities” based solel on your opinion of the comments of three journalists. That’s rather a small sample size, no?

      You also seem to assume that all members of “the same minorities” were/are/must be “with” those you describe as “Israeli Jews” in the first place. Otherwise, “the same minorities” could not be “turning against them,” right?

      Repeating: what the ….?

    • Beelzebub

      Oh, get over yourself Jacob. Not all blacks, whites or whatevers are anti-Jew.

      • Jacob Arnon

        Your comment is as predictable as a hurricane in the late summer.

        Go talk to yourself, bigot. I have no patience with self righteous ignoramuses like you.

    • northeaster17

      Racism alive and well. Brought to you by another victim of minorities participating in political discussion. We feel your pain.

  • jack paloma

    I thought for a moment a “news” show might at least give the appearance of bringing some balance to the current situation in Israel/Gaza. No such luck. The constant moaning about the suffering of the peoples of Gaza. It’s a war. The only way Israel can get a fair shot on your program is to shut down its IRON DOME missile defense system until enough Israelis die to balance out the numbers. Your guests and yourself completely ignore the sole purpose of those hundred of tunnels and the constant barrage of short and medium range missile’s that rain down on Israel. You also ignore the constant barrage of rockets from Gaza that was one of the primary factors that finally provoked Israel to react in the manner it has. None of your guests offer one suggestion about would have been a better course of action for Israel to these provocations by HAMAS. I’m so dissapointed that you don’t even try to have a discussion including opposing point of view, just bash Israel. Your bias is not something to be proud of.

    • hennorama

      HELL YEAH! Finally! Someone’s talking some sense!

      Those whiney-ass moaners should ignore the moaning and whining coming from the wounded and dying. After all, only We The People (and maybe the Israelis), have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, so phuck them.

      “It’s a war,” and they shouldn’t be in the way of those missiles, rockets, bombs, bullets, grenades, artillery shells, shrapnel, exploding buildings, rubble, flying glass, etc.

      Sheesh.

      (In case anyone wonders: tongue firmly in cheek as to the preceding)

    • northeaster17

      To the powerful goes much responsibility. Israel may be threatened by Hamas but their very survival is not affected by the Hamas rocket attacks. The indiscriminate killing by Israel of so many citizens and children as well as the retched conditions in Gaza amount to war crimes.

      • jack paloma

        The fact is, the ability of us all here to express our strongly held opinions is somewhat cathartic. I think we all recognize that none of us are likely to change anyones opinion by sharing our thoughts. My point was to try to say to the people running ON POINT that when discussing controversial issues such as this that opposing points of view be in the conversation. That’s it. The moderator should try hard to keep the discussion on topic and moving along. The thing I absolutely hate about Tom Ashbrook is that his point of view is injected into the conversation. I observed the same tone from him when gun control issues are discussed. I don’t like that in a news show. If I did I would get my news from Fox or MSNBC. In the conversation with this panel of three black journalist there was only one point of view, Palestinians were victims and had no responsibility for their current plight and that Israel was unjustified in the way it responded to the perceived threat from Hamas. Surely they could have easily added another voice to the conversation but they chose not to…

    • noshel

      Jack.
      Don’t forget that Israel was the world number one military force that could have get what they call terrorist without having to destroy any neighborhood!… What’s change?. Israel could get to those Hamas leaders if it did wanted to. but it rather commit crimes to some how show who have the bigger guns!. which will lead no where. the only thing for Israel is to give up the Palestinians territory and move back to its original border, or else this wont stop!.

      • jack paloma

        Terrorist popping up out of 1 of several hundred tunnels in a random way is not something that the number one military force ,as you call it is particularly good at fighting. Air to air combat and tank warfare they are good at. We know from the recent war in Lebanon that Israel fought with Hezbollah to only a standoff that all the might in the world is tough to use in during urban warfare. Remember Somalia …Blackhawk down. You can’t just go get them. How long did it take to find Bin Laden with all our resources and special forces? What borders exactly should they pull back to? A two state solution is doable but not until Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist and stops living in fantasy that they are going to wipe Israel off the map.

        • noshel

          Jack for your information, Hamas fighters are not terrorist, if any one is to be branded terrorist, Is Obama and the Israeli government and its military. and here is why. !
          You would never allowed me to come and occupied your house and fight you in it and the police come and take my side?. I hope you see where I am going?. These people are freedom fighters. they are fighting for their land . We in the west especially the US like to brand people who it cant have as its puppet, and side with criminals when it suite their purpose!.

          • jack paloma

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Perhaps it would be helpful to go back and visit how it came to be” their land”. The Gaza Strip used to be part of Egypt if my reading of history is correct. During the 1967 “6day war” Israel took it from Egypt after defeating them in a war. .When exactly was it Palestine?Where was it’s capital;? What was it ‘s currency and what language did they speak? There never was a Palestinian country before that was taken from them. These are people that other Arab nations have abandoned and for the most part look down upon. When they decide to stop spending all the foreign aid they have received on tunnels and bombs and start improving the lives of their people maybe their plight will improve. The dream of “defeating’ Israel is a waste of time.

          • noshel

            Jack Sorry you seem to be pleading ignorance here!. Please go to your Bible and you will find Palestine in it!. this is not a make up people or nation, they are from biblical times just like the Israelites, and Jews.
            I would say greed is the issue, one want to control all and the others should have nothing, so I believe its time for the Israelis to think carefully and realize that the only way they will win, is not to kill women and children discriminatory, but to simply give up the land they took and respect the international borders and international Laws!.
            The United States would never allowed Canada to come in and Take Washington State, and annex it to Vancouver, and continue to fight the US over it, Neither would Canada allowed the United States to come and take over New Brunswick and then fight them over it?
            Neither side would never allowed it to happen, so why Israel cant simply realize that its time to stop the bloodshed and simple give up the land?.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    11,472,000 Americans Have Left Workforce Since Obama Took Office

    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/11472000-americans-have-left-workforce-obama-took-office

    As reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS).

    • hennorama

      Tso? (h/t, again, to the eloquent genius, [MrNutso].

      And where did you get this information? Was it from a government source? If so, why do you believe it, since you earlier wrote (inaccurately, but that’s nothing new for you) that:

      “Jack Welch, has stated that the govt. intentionally puts out false unemployment numbers.”?

    • Obamunism 2.0

      CNS News is not government funded like NPR.

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — can’t, or won’t, you answer the simple questions posed to you below?

    • JS

      Do the over 6 million working age people who died during that time count as “leaving the work force”?

      • HonestDebate1

        How many aged into the workforce during that time?

        People have always died but the LFPR is higher now than it has been in many decades. It’s the main indicator IMO. The only solution (probably too late) is a growing economy that creates more jobs so that more people go back to work to create more taxpayers. While trading good full-time jobs for crappy part-time jobs is better than nothing, it is only barely so.

    • TFRX

      Can’t No Shit news click pimping strikes again.

  • Obamunism 2.0
    • TFRX

      More links to “Can’t No* Shit news”?

      Proceed, chump.

      (*sic)

      • HonestDebate1

        Who do you trust?

        • TFRX

          Keep JAQing off, bub.

      • Obamunism 2.0

        You managed to type all that with your head up your ass?

        Aren’t you ‘special’.

        • jefe68

          They said the same about Harry Truman during his presidency and for years afterwards. He’s now considered one of the better presidents. Go figure.

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you think Obama is a good president?

          • pete18

            History will not be so kind to Obama.

      • hennorama

        TFRX — gotta say, it can be amusing to engage with “the folks” in the comments sections of cns”news”.com.

        For example, in the same way that I challenged [Obamunism 2.0] in the thread below, I posted this (and similar) on that site:

        It says above that “CNSNews.com is here reporting THE TRUTH,” but all the figures in the piece above came from Obama’s government — the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

        So … that means Obama’s government is telling THE TRUTH, right?

        Good to know. Thanks, CNS”News”.com.

        • HonestDebate1

          Do you follow their rules or do you just sow discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion? Do you keep those comments under 400 words? Do you use their site to elicit personal communications for the purpose of giving psychiatric advise?

          • jefe68

            CNS is not a serious news outlet.
            It’s nothing short of a partisan right wing rag.

          • HonestDebate1

            IT WAS A KAISER POLL!!

          • TFRX

            AND IT WAS ON CAN’T NO SHIT NEWS AND PUT HERE TO BE CLICK-PIMPED!!!

          • HonestDebate1

            What sources do you trust?

          • pete18

            BALLOON JUICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — not only that, their comments sections are a Web’s Wild West, with virtually no rules, standards, or moderation.

            There’s some pretty hair-raising stuff on them, a toned-down sample of which was provided by some of those commenting on the recent On Point show featuring Dinesh D’Souza and David Corn.

            One wonders how many comments got caught in OnPoint’s “moderation” filter. One suspects the producers/moderators had their hands full.

          • HonestDebate1

            53% disapprove of Obamacare according to a major player who is often cited on NPR. That is an 8% jump from last month. That is before the 39 gut-crushing aspects delayed by decree kick in. That is before the SCOTUS weighs in on on Halbig which could obliterate the subsidies in 3/4 of the states. The nightmare has only begun.

            And you want to talk about the commenters on a blog that reports a poll?!

          • TFRX

            Click-pimp Can’t No Shit news here all you rightites want.

            I’m not biting.

            If it’s real it’s also somewhere else. If it’s on ly on CNS, it’s fake.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re a broken record and it’s a lousy song.

      • HonestDebate1

        You guys are a hoot! The poll was by Kaiser not CNS. While NPR does cite Kaiser often I didn’t see any mention of this. Go figure. And then below the distraction is removed yet another level and a legitimate concern is relegated to self aggrandizing absurdity that could not be more irrelevant.

      • pete18

        If that same Kaiser poll had been delivered through Balloon Juice that “Shite” would have turned into pure gold. Proceed Champ.
        (very sic)

        • StilllHere

          They never refute the facts, just criticize the source and retreat.

          • TFRX

            I am criticizing CNS. Because I’m not gonna fall for click-pimping crap for CNS.

            I’m not biting.

            If it’s real it’s also somewhere else. If it’s on ly on CNS, it’s fake.

          • HonestDebate1
          • pete18

            Heaven forbid you actually respond to content. But of course why would you that would be hard and force you to think, attacking the messenger is such a cheap and easy thrill.

        • TFRX

          Can’t No Shit news links strike again.

  • davecm

    News you will not hear here or on the Govt. influenced news media.
    Obama and his liberal/progressive Demobots claim they are for the middle class and the children. They claim they are doing everything for the well being of the people.
    Remember when Obama stated that his energy policies would in effect cause energy cost to sky rocket?
    Obama and company are waging a war on the coal industry.
    EPA is going around country on a listening tour stating the administration’s new regulations on CO2 or the coal industry.
    The new rules are in affect Obama’s plan to shut down the coal industry period.
    EPA was in Atlanta doing their thing, many companies and utilities were there.
    Alabama Power announced today it is closing two of its coal fired plants.
    “Federal environmental mandates are forcing us to change how we generate electricity for our customers,” said Matt Bowden, Alabama Power’s vice president for environmental affairs. “They are putting new restrictions on our ability to provide our customers with the energy they need in a cost-effective manner.”

    30% of power generated in Alabama is from coal, 40% nation wide.
    This means that electric bills that those so called middle class and the children will pay, will as Obama stated, will sky rocket.
    So much for being concerned about the middle class and the children!!!

    • northeaster17

      The sooner we are off coal the better.

      • HonestDebate1

        That may be true but if it were all gone tomorrow the death and suffering would be catastrophic.

      • davecm

        What are you going to use to fill the gap that coal provided??????
        Obama is going after the process we use to get natural gas. So natural gas will be the next to go. Maybe when electric bills triple, some of you will wake up.

  • HonestDebate1

    Add the immigration bill to the long list of bills that passed in the House and died in the Senate.

  • noshel

    Tom.
    One question I don’t hear people asking. ‘Is , What would any of you do , if some one come in and occupied your home, and you have been trying to get them out for years, and when you finally get them out, just to have them and their friends block you in they surround your house and you cannot go any where, in reality they still controls your house while the police seem to side with the criminals . What would you or any one for that matter do to be able to free yourself?.
    Well this is what Hamas is doing, they are defending their home and homeland, I cant see how the international community can sit by while Israel continue to commit war crime and genocide? Israel does not adhered to any UN resolution, If it was Iran they would already have sanction placed on them.

    • tbphkm33

      Israel is a colony of the United States – an in fact, with the large depots of military hardware “stored” there, Israel is a military garrison of the United States.

      True to its past, Israel is again guilty of war crimes – in light of the financial, political and military support the United States provides Israel, the United States is complicit in those war crimes.

      With the ever diminishing stature and influence of the United States around the world, it will not be long until Washington sees itself indited for its actions. Frankly, the rest of the world, even its European allies, are against the United States and Israel. Change is looming.

  • HonestDebate1

    As if the biological weapons flooding cross our Southern border aren’t enough, Obama has decided to import some more from Liberia.

    • JGC

      What biological weapons on the US southern border?

      • HonestDebate1

        I actually just replied to you above and gave a link. I am referring to the diseased illegals. You may not agree with my bombastic description but you know how I am. If you think about it, a gazillion afflicted and contagious people being spread out across America is an effective way to distribute disease.

        Now I am not saying anyone is doing this on purpose with that in mind but the result is the same.

  • HonestDebate1

    What is with Obama trashing America?! He said we tortured people which is BS and he knows it. Meanwhile he just kills them with drones. How can any sane leader imply he regrets we gave the nasal rinse which gave us the intel to get Bin Laden (not that it made us any safer, pure symbolism). It’s surreal.

    • northeaster17

      Since your so in on the torture stuff one would think that you would be OK with the drones too. How is killing from afar so much worse than torturing people

      • HonestDebate1

        I have not criticized the drone attacks, it’s too nuanced to make such broad statements. Sometimes it’s wise, sometimes it’s lazy, sometimes it’s bad, sometimes valuable intel is lost. I have pointed out the doubt standard.

        I would say the nasal rinse which doesn’t hurt, scar or maim. all while giving us needed intel, to be better than death. But that’s just me.

    • nj_v2

      ^ Partisan hackery

      • jefe68

        As well as nonsensical smackery…

    • TFRX

      And what is it with airline food?

      Sorry, this isn’t the “run out hackneyed and tired jokes” page?

  • northeaster17

    Just loving how the house (R lowlifes) expects Obama to use executive powers to deal with the border issue. Right after they sue him for using executive powers.

    • HonestDebate1

      Obama said he would but point taken, it’s a bit presumptuous to expect him to do what he says. Having said that I don’t follow your logic. They are suing him for abusing his Executive powers, he has tack record. He has been smacked down by the courts many times for doing so. Why wouldn’t they expect him to do it again?

  • nj_v2

    Oilybomber, summarizing U.S. policy:

    “We tortured some folks.

    We killed some folks.

    We droned some folks.

    We invaded some countries.

    We lied about all kinds of sh*t.

    We spied on just about everybody.

    We did it out of fear, so it’s all okay.

    We armed and supported fascists, thugs, and dictators. But only when they opposed communism or it was in our “interest.”

    So, what are ya gonna do about it?”

    Meet the new boss.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Feds treating illegal aliens better than US veterans

    Feds call illegals “residents” while America’s vets struggle on the streets

    http://www.infowars.com/feds-treating-illegals-better-than-veterans/

    Illegal aliens will vote Democrat, most US vets won’t.

  • HonestDebate1

    I was a little surprised when I saw George Will on Sunday give his position on the illegal aliens but I can’t argue with his main point. We certainly can assimilate the children with teddy bears. But assimilation is a charming memory of the days before our hyphenated America, of the days when our leaders believed in the melting pot. So the idea is nice but it addresses only a portion of the illegals. I’m more worried about the murderous thugs committed to murder and mayhem. Will cited a fact that has little to do with the situation at hand.

  • pete18

    Even Barney Frank agrees Obama lied about Obama care when selling it to the public:

    “The rollout was so bad, and I was appalled — I don’t understand how the president could have sat there and not been checking on that on a weekly basis,” Frank told HuffPost during a July interview. “But frankly, he should never have said as much as he did, that if you like your current health care plan, you can keep it. That wasn’t true. And you shouldn’t lie to people. And they just lied to people.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/barney-frank-obama-lie_n_5642132.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

  • Obamunism 2.0

    Netanyahu to Obama: Don’t second guess me on Hamas

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_MIDEAST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-02-05-10-33

    Netanyahu defends the borders of his country. You can’t say that Obama.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    “Global Temperature Update – Still no global warming for 17 years 10 months”

    Still waiting for El Nino to kick in. Meanwhile “the Great Pause” continues.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/08/02/global-temperature-update-still-no-global-warming-for-17-years-10-months/#more-113904

    • nj_v2

      What continues is the crapstorm of nonsense from the likes of the Worried One.

      • HonestDebate1

        Nice rebuttal!

        • nj_v2

          Self parody really needs no “rebuttal.”

          • HonestDebate1

            And none is forthcoming.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Denier of government data?

        Note CO2 emissions are at a record level in the midst of the “great pause”.

  • HonestDebate1
  • davecm

    (CNN) — About 83,000 Defense Department employees and contractors with security clearances to protect the nation’s secrets have delinquent federal tax debts totaling $730 million, according to an internal government audit.

    Wow! I reckon the time spent targeting conservative groups, the IRS kinda had no time to spend catching this group of tax cheats.
    We now know that Ms. Learner, six figure retiree of the IRS, had a real dislike for

    • hennorama

      davecm — OH MY GOODNESS — WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!

      First of all, just because a taxpayer owes money to the Treasury, it does not mean the taxpayer is a “tax cheat.”

      You’ve missed the point, which is that if someone has some financial difficulty, and they have access to classified information, they are a greater security risk to the nation, since they might have a financial motive to disclose information.

      The figures indicate an average debt of almost $8,800/person, which is a bit worrisome.

      But the blurb from CNN is misleading, as it misstated and exaggerated the findings. Here’s an excerpt from the actual GAO report (emphasis added):

      What GAO Found

      In summary, GAO found that about 83,000 Department of Defense (DOD) employees and contractors who held or were determined eligible for secret, top secret, or sensitive compartmented information (SCI) clearances, or related interim clearances, had unpaid federal tax debt totaling more than $730 million as of June 30, 2012. DOD reported to GAO that about 3.2 million civilian and military employees and contractors held or were approved for similar clearances from January 1, 2006, to December 31, 2011, which was the time frame for GAO’s analysis. According to data from the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), about 34,000 of these 83,000 individuals (about 40 percent) with tax debt had a repayment plan with the IRS to pay back their debt as of June 30, 2012. GAO’s analysis cannot be generalized to individuals that were granted eligibility for security clearances and were non-DOD employees of the executive branch, employees of the legislative branch, or employees of the intelligence community.

      As part of this work, GAO also identified individuals with unpaid tax debts who also had access to classified information. DOD officials stated that individuals having access to classified information pose a greater risk because they have more opportunity to actually compromise classified information than a person who is only eligible to access classified information. GAO found that about 26,000 of the 83,000 DOD employees and contractors with eligibilities who owed taxes (about 31 percent) had access to classified information, and they owed about $229 million in federal taxes as of June 2012.

      See:
      http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-686R

      None of this is great, of course, but it’s nowhere near as dire as the CNN blurb makes it seem. And those with actual access to classified info had a somewhat lower, but still worrisome, average balance due of bit over $8,300.

      • davecm

        No, I did not miss the point, There is 730 million dollars that was not paid by these taxpayers.
        There are other cases within the Govt. itself where people have not yet paid their “fair share”. In fact, some 45+% of Americans pay no fed. taxes, due to loopholes.
        My beef in all this so-called debate we the people are having is: I see our country making a bad turn in the road of history and due to party loyalty and a lust for power or I win you lose attitudes, many can not see the nose on their face as to what is coming. I saw the collapse of 2008 coming years before. I prepared, I lost nothing, I told others, they did not heed, they lost a bunch. I am nobody special, I just keep my nose to the wind and at this point in time, I smell something bad in the wind.
        The old saying, the straw that broke the camel’s back.has some meaning to what is coming.
        But! pay me no mind, I am one of those conservatives.

        • hennorama

          davecm — thank you for your response.

          Your personal story is interesting, but that doesn’t make you an authority. If you “smell something bad in the wind,” you might want to check the vicintity. Perhaps there’s a camel nearby.

          Nor does your mischaracterizing some taxpayers who have a balance due as “tax cheats,” and your failure to acknowledge your inaccuracy, improve your crediblity.

          Without quibbling over the percentage, the number of US households that have no Federal Income Tax liability has been abnormally high, due to the Great Recession/Lesser Depression, and the temporary tax reductions put in place in its aftermath. This percentage is declining, and will continue to do so as economic and employment conditions continue to improve.

          That said, you’ll get no quarrel from me regarding the corrosively divisive nature of US politics.

  • davecm

    Hamas is a terrorist organization. They have already proclaimed they want every Jew DEAD! Their misguided religion demands that of its followers.
    The Palestinians are guilty by association, they want the same outcome.
    What disturbs me the most is that a segment of our population sides with the terrorists. Tells me we are on the wrong track!
    Latest news:
    Ebola lands in Atlanta today Sat. 8/2/14.
    I hope the CDC in Atlanta handles this better than that other deadly gem, anthrax. If this thing gets out!!!!!!!!!
    More news you may not have heard over the Nat’l news bunch.
    A holding facility in NM is in lock down due to a outbreak of a highly contagious form of chicken pox among the illegal kids.
    If this spreads to some Democratic voters in the area, finally we might enforce our existing immigration laws.

    The last bit of news you want hear from here.
    Washington (CNN) – The cost of developing the initially-troubled website Healthcare.Gov ballooned to $840 million due to poor planning and management by the federal government, a government audit found.
    Wow! so much for the ACA being affordable, maybe it should have been A as in avoidable.

    • JGC

      Hi davecm,

      I just want to clarify your note about the “holding facility in NM in lock down due to an outbreak of a highly contagious form of chicken pox among the illegal kids”.

      All chicken pox virus is highly contagious, and not specific to a “form” associated with these “illegal kids”. 99% of U.S. adults over age 40 have had the chicken pox infection even if they don’t remember it (CDC). It is recommended that every child get the chicken pox vaccination, and that every adult age 60 or up get the associated shingles vaccination. (I got my shingles vaccine earlier than age 60 because, although a person is less likely to develop shingles in their 40′s or 50′s, the shingles vaccine has a much higher efficacy (70%) in the 50-year-old cohort than if it is administered in later years; it also lessens the chance of post-herpetic nerve damage, a painful and chronic condition following many shingles outbreaks.)

      Again, these kids are not bringing in some sort of special, unusually virulent form of chicken pox.

      • HonestDebate1

        My wife got shingles last year, it was an ordeal.

        They are also seeing a lot of lice, measles, H1N1, scabies and Tuberculosis.

        http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/08/01/border-agents-need-more-staffing-to-help-the-border-crisis/

        • anamaria23

          An article by NPR “Immigrant Kids Have Health Issues” is more precise than ” a lot of” For example, 3 cases of tuberculosis have been found, while annually Texas sees 1300 cases and Arizona 200 in the general population. Scabies and lice are present, but no mention of H1N1.
          The children are screened twice and treated for disease before being sent to the population. I cite this in the interest of accuracy, not in defense of parents sending their minor children on such a dangerous trip. Mental health issues are predominant such as suicidal issues.
          One article mentioned the shortage of border patrol agents due to sequestration
          having a large impact.

          • HonestDebate1

            I am not sure what you’re getting at but this is a problem.

            And no, the sequestration that increased spending by $15 billion is nothing but a lame excuse IMO.

            The suicidal issues are not surprising at all what with reports of kids being forced to mutilate each other, rapes and death.

          • anamaria23

            I am getting at the fact that you reported “a lot” of tuberculosis and H1N1. 3 may be 3 too many but not ” a lot of.” No H1N1.

          • HonestDebate1

            I was going by the quote from the vice president and spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council. I gave the link. Here’s the quote:

            “According to Shawn Moran, the vice president and spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council, scabies and lice are the two main infestations that his agents come across. He adds that chicken pox, measles, H1N1 and tuberculosis are also pretty common. Really, he says they see a whole gamete of diseases and that’s what his men are most concerned with.”

            Some of it is documented but it is certain we have no idea the extent of it.

          • nj_v2

            Wow, a conservative quoting a labor union when it serves their agenda. The rest of the time unions are evil and corrupt.

            There are no known diseases that head lice transmit, and millions of people who aren’t immigrants have them, but it sounds menacing, so the fear mongers like DIsHonestMisDebator Greggg just add it to the mix to make it all seem just godawful.

          • 1Brett1

            Head lice outbreaks are very common in pre-schools. I wonder if masturdebator is for shutting down all pre-schools? Well, perhaps that would be “yes” but just the public pre-schools.

          • HonestDebate1

            I understand that. We spray the community riding helmets we provide for camp kids.

            Your logic leaves a bit to be desired.

          • HonestDebate1

            When have I ever said unions were evil and corrupt? Do you dispute the quote? If so, why? Are you accusing them of lying?

          • jefe68

            I think HD has Chicken Little syndrome…

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — a suggested change:

            Chicken Little [Wearing Fear Goggles] syndrome:

            http://www.nationalband.com/chicken_glasses1.jpg

          • HonestDebate1

            Your comment and the one below are excellent examples of an attempt to sow discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

            It doesn’t work on me because I don’t care what anyone thinks of me. I would guess the moderatos don’t appreciate it much though.

          • anamaria23

            I am averse to statistics such as ” pretty common” Just me.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t disagree but my point is we don’t know, we are not being told and there is certainly a track record to suggest politics may play a roll in downplaying the potential dire consequences.

          • anamaria23

            I stand corrected: 2to 4 cases of H1N1 have been reported.
            It seems impossible to get the real stories any more.
            The report you cited is in conflict with the NPR and NBC sources I read.
            One pediatrician in Texas reported no cases of active tuberculosis, but latent unymptomatic, non communicable in an unspecified number.

          • hennorama

            anamaria — wait … you mean that you disbelieve “Shawn Moran, the vice president and spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council” about medical issues?

            Curious, isn’t it, for [Debates?NotHe] to cite an article quoting a “union boss” about medical issues.

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you think union bosses are liars? Do you think they are corrupt? Here’s another source but they ARE corrupt, so take it with a grain of salt.

            “DHS employees reported exposure to communicable diseases and becoming sick on duty. For example, during a recent site visit to the Del Rio USBP Station and
            Del Rio Port of Entry, CBP personnel reported contracting scabies, lice, and
            chickenpox. Two CBP Officers reported that their children were diagnosed with
            chicken pox within days of the CBP Officers’ contact with a UAC who had chickenpox. In addition, USBP personnel at the Clint Station and Santa Teresa Station reported that they were potentially exposed to tuberculosis.”

            http://www.oig.dhs.gov/assets/Mgmt/2014/Over_Un_Ali_Chil.pdf

          • HonestDebate1

            Anamaria, while I can certainly be mistaken, I don’t make stuff up. I agree 110% with you about the difficulty of getting real stories but I do not think that is an accident here. I think information is being withheld. We have seen no pictures and there are always pictures. So if we agree about the difficulties then surely you cannot rule out the possibility the numbers are much higher.

            I do not consider NPR a reliable source not so much for what they report, more for what they don’t report. NBC is much much worse. I at least cited someone who is passing along first hand knowledge.

        • JGC

          Shingles is a bear. My mother had it last year, with a very bad case of PHN (post-herpetic neuralgia) after. She even had had the vaccine, but only when she was 75. The shingles vaccine apparently does not provide as good protection the later in age one receives it. The CDC recommends it for ages 60+, however it is FDA-approved for 50-59. Now,there may be payment issues for the vaccine, since it is covered by Medicare (which is minimum age 62 right?), and some but not all private insurers cover it below age 60. But it is worth trying to avoid getting this disease if at all possible. Hope your wife recovered fully.

          I do not see any independent confirmation of widespread measles, tuberculosis, H1N1 in the immigrant children population. This may have been a misquote? Some lice and scabies, yes, but not even above what you might find in a preschool. And now my head is starting to feel itchy…

          • HonestDebate1

            Luckily we had a doctor at the barn who recognized it and told her to go to urgent care immediately. It could have been much worse. She’s fine now, thanks.

            I’ll be honest JGC, I don’t trust the numbers we are seeing reported and I have a hard time believing we have the resources deployed to do the necessary tests universally.

      • 1Brett1

        Good for you, getting the vaccine!…I’ve had shingles and have the postherpetic neuralgia that you speak of in your comment (I didn’t seek treatment for my shingles for 4 weeks, thinking it was an allergic response to something, which made my case and recovery especially difficult). Shingles is serious business and can also indicate a more serious condition, such as cancer or some other immunodeficiency disorder.

        • JGC

          Sorry to hear you had to suffer through that. We were visiting a friend last week in Washington DC who is a lab chief at NIH. He told us he had an abdominal rash appear a couple of years ago, and it turned out to be shingles. Luckily, his doctor recognized what it was early on, and he was given acyclovir to mitigate the symptoms. These antivirals have to be administered within 72 hours of appearance of the rash to have the best chance of reducing the affects of the virus (spreading of the rash, scarring, and the dreaded post-herpetic neuralgia). Not a very big window of time…

          • 1Brett1

            I stay very active, attempting to engage in rigorous aerobic activities every day. I have found that this is the best medicine to counter the effects of the nerve damage (keeping my heart and lungs healthy seems to be key). It only really becomes an overwhelming issue when I have some other physical issue. I had surgery on my shoulder a couple of months ago to repair two severe rotator cuff tears and to remove three bone spurs. Prior to the surgery, my pain was, I believe, exaggerated due the nerve damage. It also made recovery and rehab from the surgery more challenging.

    • nj_v2

      More disinfo, low-quality, trolling from the conservobot posse.

      What’s the “Nat’l news bunch”? [sic]

      “Lockdown” “outbreak” “chick pox among the kids”

      Drama queen much?

      One person has the disease. They were put in isolation. Processing of the detainees was suspended.

      • anamaria23

        Deliberate distortion on this forum is pretty common.

    • anamaria23

      “Ebola lands in Atlanta today Sat 8/2/14″ COULD read -
      a 34 year old American missionary MD infected with Ebola arrived in Atlanta 8/2/14 under strict protocol of CDC.
      He was brought here because he is an American and would surely die in Liberia as is the case of the other American being brought here.
      How many were affected by the anthrax “deadly gem”?
      Chicken Pox is Chicken Pox and is all highly contagious.

  • HonestDebate1

    I was in Florida for the last few days and it was all over the news that those who bought insurance through the exchange are going to see an 18% increase in their premiums. How can that be? They were supposed to go down. The reason given is not enough healthy young people are signing up to offset the older sick people. Well duh! We warned you about that.

    This is why Obama’s touting of the enrollment numbers was so bogus. Without the context of the demographics it was meaningless. But they knew.

    • davecm

      Wait till some of these people who were dropped by their previous plans, now on Obamacare try to see their old doctors.
      Many are finding out that their old doctors are not in their new plan’s network. As you stated ; But they knew

      • 1Brett1

        Before Obamacare, if one changed jobs, one usually had to change doctors, as, often, changing jobs also meant changing insurance plans. Also, doctors, in many instances before Obamacare, would change which health insurance plans they accepted, causing patients to have to find another doctor who did accept their insurance. Employers, also before Obamacare, would change which plans they offered, further causing employees to find new doctors.

        So, there has not really been anything new or different in that regard since the implementation of Obamacare, albeit Obama only served to make himself sound ignorant or deceptive by making claims that people would be able to keep their plans and doctors.

        • HonestDebate1

          Even if we accept your absurd implication (“not really anything new”) that just as many people had to change plans and doctors before Obamacare, you are leaving out the fact that people used to have a choice in the matter.

          • 1Brett1

            There is nothing in my comment that said “just as many people” had to change plans/doctors before the ACA as now. But, hey, that never has stopped you from putting words in other people’s mouths before. It’s part of your MO to re-characterize what you are replying to to make your arguments sound more valid (and to make the person you are replying to sound ridiculous). This is further evidence (among so much) that you are not interested in any kind of honest discussion.

            As far as choices go, if one’s doctor, prior to the ACA, stopped accepting one’s insurance plan, there wasn’t a choice on the part of the insured. If one’s employer changed which insurance plans were offered, again, there wasn’t a choice on the insured’s part. You could argue that one could simply change jobs. That is still an option. One could argue that an insured person could have had the choice to continue seeing his or her doctor but pay out of pocket if the doctor stopped honoring a particular insurance plan; that is also still a choice one can make.

            There is a lot to criticize about the ACA, and my point was that the issue with people changing plans and doctors is trivial compared to some of the other problems with the ACA. Making too much hay, however, out of Obama’s saying people could keep their plans/doctors, saying he lied as part of some diabolical plan to sabotage his own landmark legislation, etc., only serves to undermine whatever legitimate points of discussion someone like you might have.

          • HonestDebate1

            If there are now more people losing their plans and changing their doctors then that is something new, no? Did you read your own comment?

            People used to be able to choose a plan that covered what they chose to be covered. If they didn’t like one insurer they could find another. Now there is much less flexibility due to the one size fits all approach. There is no way to avoid paying for coverage they don’t want.

            It is not possible to make too much hay about a President lying his ass off over and over and over again to misrepresent what he has imposed on us.

          • jefe68

            HD and all the other right wingers are not going to be convinced nor do they want anything to do with any kind of health care reform that might bring the US into the 21st century. They seem to be only interested in buzz words such as “market forces” which is really another way of saying people are on their own. If you can’t afford health care, to bad.

            Of course this kind of mindset ignores the reality of the economics behind what amounts to one of the worst if not the worst health care systems when compared to other industrial nations in terms of costs and outcomes. Sad really.

          • HonestDebate1

            Please don’t tell me what I think. Why do you make up stuff?

            I am a big proponent of health care reform beginning with repealing Obamacare. Before Obama I was also a big proponent of healthcare reform.

          • JONBOSTON

            Like HD, please don’t tell me what I think about health care reform. It so happens my daughter is a physician at a major New England teaching hospital and my wife is very prominent in the health care field. I happen to support health
            care reform , just not the ACA which I regard as a pure income redistribution scheme that did little, if anything , to reduce the number of uninsured and did nothing to control spiraling health care costs. I thought it insane that during a time of high unemployment , Obamacare would upset the health insurance for 150 million Americans who by and large didn’t like its cost but enjoyed the coverage , quality and protection. All done in the name of providing new health insurance for maybe 6-8 million previously uninsured–we don’t know the exact number of newly insured because Obama won’t reveal the extent of the fraud , unqualified , and number of illegals that signed up for subsidies.

          • 1Brett1

            So, the ACA is an income redistribution scheme? Care to elaborate on that one?

            Americans “enjoyed” the “coverage, quality and protection” with their health insurance before the implementation of the ACA?

            Does that include people who got sick and were dropped by their insurance company?

            Does it include people who couldn’t get insurance because they had a pre-existing condition?

            How about the people who had bargain-basement-priced insurance, felt secure, and, well, were happy, that is until they got sick and realized they were paying for something that didn’t cover them once they got sick? Were those people happier too?

            Do you really believe there is extensive fraud with the ACA?

            Are people who are “unqualified” to get health insurance getting health insurance? And, what do you mean when you say that? And by that, can you provide clarification and also supporting evidence of what you believe?

            From what I’ve seen, many people qualified to get subsidies have not been able to get them (in those Red states where no state exchanges were set up).

            Folks in Red states where the states did not set up their own exchanges aren’t getting health insurance if they are poor. There has been no expansion of Medicaid; subsidies are also unavailable.

            In fact, only in states where they’ve set up their own exchanges is the ACA working as intended…look at Kentucky; the law is working great. In states like Virginia, South Carolina, etc. (to name a couple with which I am familiar), the law is not working, and poor people are not able to get insurance; you know, those states where Republican leadership has refused to set up state exchanges. In many of those states, Republicans in the legislature and governors have even blocked independent brokers from helping people navigate through understanding the specifics of the ACA, so citizens can get information and become informed customers. Let’s face it, Republicans not only don’t want any aspect of the law to succeed, they are taking deliberate steps to make it fail.

            In Red states where no state exchanges were set up, it is much more efficient, and information is more accessible, for one to go directly to an insurance company for information about coverage and cost, and to compare different types of plans.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s bogus as hell dude. Some blue states didn’t set up exchanges and some red states did. It is not up to you or the government to tell me which plan is better for me. The plan I chose is better for me. Obamacare is completely unworkable. It’s a bureaucratic nightmare choking the economy, forcing people to pay more and causing doctors to retire early. It’s awful.

          • 1Brett1

            Maybe there is an exception or two, but most of the Red states did not set up their own exchanges. So, that is not “bogus as hell” dude.

            http://kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/health-insurance-exchanges/

            Are you denying that the ACA is working in Kentucky?

            The rest of your comment is a rant. But, I suppose if one doesn’t condemn the whole thing with phrases like, “a nightmare,” “awful,” and “completely unworkable,” then, in your partisan mind, one is singing its praises. I’ve said before, there is a lot to criticize, it’s just that rants like yours aren’t really part of intelligent discussion.

          • HonestDebate1
        • JONBOSTON

          Obama didn’t just “sound ignorant or deceptive”. He sounded like a staggeringly incompetent unmitigated serial liar, which is what he is. Any person with a brain could have figured out that increasing the number of insured, mandating coverages including free coverages like birth control, not addressing rising health care costs, and not increasing the number of doctors , would increase exponentially health care premiums. Why on earth do you think he’s delayed all of the mandates, especially the employers mandate?

          • 1Brett1

            Do you have evidence that premiums are now increasing at a much more rapid rate (“…increase exponentially health care premiums”) than they were prior to the ACA’s implementation?

            BTW, your “staggeringly incompetent unmitigated serial liar he [Obama] is” statement is a little bit like pulling punches; do you think you could be a little firmer in your opinions?

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree, it was an understatement.

          • JONBOSTON

            First –Obama said we’d save $2500 (LOL) in health insurance premiums ….I do have evidence that premiums are rising greatly from personal experience as well as from anecdotal situations. And what we’ve seen is just the tip of the iceberg. Why do you think Obama delayed the employer mandate until after the November elections? Did he suddenly care about the financial situation of large employers or was he more concerned about the electoral health of Democrats?

            BTW–the answer to my first question is that many employers will choose to either drop coverage entirely and pay the penalty or jack up employee deductibles and/or narrow the choice of doctors and hospitals..

          • 1Brett1

            You said in your intitial comment that the ACA is causing an “increase exponentially [in] health care premiums, which is what I replied to.” Now, you say your “evidence” is personal experience and anecdotal, so, no, you don’t have evidence that the ACA is causing premiums to increase at a more rapid rate. Your own insurance rates going up is not evidence, nor are “anecdotes” about such.

            BTW, employers don’t “choose” to “narrow the choice of doctors and hospitals.” That act can be attributed to either insurance companies, doctors or hospitals.

          • JONBOSTON

            Employers can choose different insurance programs offered on their exchanges depending on such things as scope of hospital and doctor networks.

          • 1Brett1

            Are you saying that employers are deliberately choosing health plans to offer their employees that provide less access to hospitals and doctors?

          • JONBOSTON

            I am saying that employers are making decisions that are in the best interest of their shareholders and employees. I haven’t canvassed every employer but would imagine in some cases yes, in others no.

          • HonestDebate1

            Not to mention subsidies in about 37 states are in limbo and may not be available.

        • hennorama

          1Brett1 — well said.

          Now, let’s correct the record about Florida.

          1. A single insurer, Florida Blue, has announced their 2015 rates last week. Others have announced rate increases that are significantly less, so it’s inaccurate to claim, as [Debates?NotHe] did above, that “those who bought insurance through the exchange are going to see an 18% increase in their premiums.”

          Per kaiserhealthnews.org:

          About a dozen carriers will be competing in the individual health insurance market next year in Florida. Two have disclosed their rates. Humana is increasing prices an average of 14.1 percent for its HMO, while its preferred provider organizations (PPO) plan will increase 2.2 percent on average. Molina has set an 11.6 percent average rate decrease for all its plans.

          2. As also reported on kaiserhealthnews.org, large rate increases are par for the course for this insurer (which signed up about 34 percent of FL residents who enrolled via the Federal exchange; Florida does not operate its own exchange.):

          Next year will mark the fourth consecutive year Florida Blue has increased premiums by an average of at least 11 percent for people under 65 who buy coverage on their own. Florida Blue increased rates an average of 16.5 percent in 2014, 16 percent in 2013 and 11.5 percent in 2012, the company said.

          More excerpts from the article Florida’s Largest Health Insurer Is Raising Exchange Rates An Average Of 17.6 Percent (emphasis added):

          [Florida Blue, a] nonprofit Blue Cross and Blue Shield affiliate blames higher health costs as a result of attracting older adults this year who previously lacked coverage and are using more services than expected.

          AND

          Florida Blue CEO Patrick Geraghty noted that premiums in the individual market have been going up for years. “In the individual market, this type of average rate increase is typical,” he told Kaiser Health News. “It is not aberrant.”

          AND

          “No one can claim in good conscience that a 10 percent rate increase or more would signal the advent of something new and unprecedented,” said Greg Mellowe, policy director of consumer group Florida CHAIN. “For years, this was standard practice in Florida.”

          The Republican-dominated Florida legislature last year suspended the state’s power to review health insurers’ rates to make sure they were actuarially sound. It left that job to federal officials who run the online insurance exchange that Florida uses. The federal government, though, has no authority to force insurers to lower insurance rates.

          Source:
          http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2014/August/01/Floridas-Largest-Health-Insurer-Is-Raising-Exchange-Rates-An-Average-Of-176-Percent.aspx

          • HonestDebate1

            I am telling you what is being reported in Florida.

            Please provide evidence that families will see a $2500 decrease in their premiums as a result of Obamacare. If they go up one dime you should be outraged. If they go down only $1500, ditto.

          • jefe68

            The obtuseness continues.
            What part of the concept of Florida Blue Cross raising it’s premiums annually, and this would happen weather the ACA was a law or not, do you not understand?

            Reading a headline or news item and then twisting it to fit a narrative might seem clever, but it’s easily torn down as a meme.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — well said.

            One must also note zero citations of what, supposedly, “is being reported in Florida.”

            Not that this is any surprise, of course.

          • HonestDebate1

            I didn’t have a tape recorder on my car radio, sue me.

            I can see you have no evidence to show an decrease in premiums. I am not surprised.

          • jefe68

            No need to sue you, as most of your postings are easily debunked.

            You should change your moniker to inane debater.

          • HonestDebate1

            They blamed Obamacare.

          • jefe68

            That’s absurd given the history of insurance rate hikes. It’s convenient to blame the ACA, the ACA has given insurance corporations way to much carte blanche in this regard however. But that’s what they lobbied for and received.

            I wont argue that the ACA is a flawed law, it’s not singel payer and it does not solve the problem of health care costs. Which is evident in the rates going up. Your comments on this are only designed to be anti-Obama screeds and nothing more. Stop trying to act as if you give a shit.

          • HonestDebate1

            Their are too many old sick people and not enough young healthy ones to offset them. That is the reason given. It is a result of Obamacare. I don’t know how that can be disputed, no wonder you didn’t even try.

          • jefe68

            Wow, you don’t get it. You really are clueless and do not seem to be interested in the cause and effect of health care costs on the economy and the health of the nation. We have a for profit fee for service health care system that is dysfunctional and getting worse, not better. The ACA is an attempt to fix it, but it’s not likely to work in the long run because it made no attempt to deal with costs.

            I don’t know how many times this has been stated on this forum and elsewhere, but the US spends almost twice as much as all the industrial nations and has lousy results per dollar spent.

          • HonestDebate1

            So we fundamentally transform America, create a part time work dynamic, spend gazillions, don’t ease the pressure in ER’s, infringe on religious freedoms, raise premiums and deductibles during hard times and 30 million will remain uninsured on something that is not likely to work. It’s not even fully implemented. I would have preferred fixing it.

            Obama inherited the best healthcare system in the world even with it’s warts.

  • nj_v2

    California: most severe drought on record

    http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/Home/StateDroughtMonitor.aspx?CA

    • HonestDebate1

      What do you attribute it to?

      • Steve__T

        Heat

      • nj_v2

        I’m no expert, but i’d bet lack of rainfall.

        • HonestDebate1

          Do you mean weather? I thought there was only climate.

          • nj_v2

            ^ Troll away, fool.

  • nj_v2

    Gathering signs of the apocalypse:

    http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2014/08/03/Water-crisis-grips-area.html

    Water crisis grips hundreds of thousands in Toledo area, state of emergency declared

    BY TOM HENRY
    BLADE STAFF WRITER

    A once-unthinkable crisis in the world’s greatest freshwater region — one that sent more than 500,000 metro Toledo residents scrambling for bottled water Saturday — enters its second day today, with officials inside the city’s Collins Park Water Treatment Plant wondering how much longer it will take before clean, safe, and reliable tap water will flow again from faucets of area homes and businesses.

    “We’ve been getting mixed results,” Jeff Martin, a senior chemist at the plant, confessed during an exclusive interview with The Blade on Saturday while performing tests for microcystin — a toxin produced by the harmful blue-green algae known as microcystis — inside the plant’s laboratory on samples drawn from 39 metro Toledo sites.

    The cause of the microcystis algae bloom is primarily phosphorus from farm fertilizer runoff, and the amount of phosphorus determines the bloom’s size. Scientists are also learning that another farm fertilizer, nitrogen, affects the size and composition of the annual bloom.

    Toledo sits on the shoreline of the Great Lakes, which holds 20 percent of the world’s fresh surface water.

    A small water treatment plant in Ottawa County’s Carroll Township was Ohio’s first to be overwhelmed by the toxin last September.…

    (snipped)

    • hennorama

      nj_v2 — fortunately, Toledo Mayor D. Michael Collins is an Independent, so no one has (yet) blamed the problem on a political point of view.

  • HonestDebate1

    I am concerned at what Obama may do in his effort to be impeached. He’s begging for it. Democrats are salivating at the chance to demonize any attempt to hold the President accountable and they know the press will comply as they did when Obama shut down the government. I think the root of it is racism manifested in the unwillingness to treat him equally because he is the first mulatto President which is meaningless. The fact is it won’t happen. There will be no House impeachment proceedings as there were when democrats ran the House under Bush.

    • tbphkm33

      “not-so-HonestDebate1″, through his/her posts, proves that keeping drugs illegal just does not work – he/she keeps on using them and somehow convincing himself/herself 20 or 30 times a day, he/she has something of importance to post online.

      • HonestDebate1

        I don’t do drugs, do you?

        • jefe68

          You should.

          • HonestDebate1

            No thanks, you can have them.

          • jefe68

            I don’t do drugs, well I do take aspirin and sometimes antihistamines.

            I do think some should be legalized however.

          • HonestDebate1

            I would have never guessed you weren’t a regular user. Well, at least we agree on legalization although I’m having second thoughts after watching Colorado.

          • jefe68

            How so? How would you know from a forum what people do?

            As to Colorado I suspect things will level out over time, the same kind of thing happened after the 18th Amendment was overturned. Still, we have a lot of problems that stem from alcohol abuse.

            You claim to be a musician, a lot of musicians smoke weed and drink to much, so I could have assumed that about you and yet I never have given it a thought.
            One reason, it’s none of my business.

          • HonestDebate1

            “How so?” Well you actually wrote you weren’t demonizing after saying I’m a fool, clueless, don’t give a shit, an inane debater, easily debunked, only interested in buzzwords, obtuse, have chicken little syndrome, nonsensical smackers, don;t get it, and on and on.

            It seems to me if you were high on drugs then at least you would have an excuse. I try to be kind.

    • 1Brett1

      Yep, he’s being given a pass because he’s mulatto. Sure.

      …And how ’bout those snarling, Pavlovian Democrats?!

      Obama’s deliberate efforts to get impeached will certainly exceed his diabolical attempts to sabotage the healthcare law; they already have! Amiright?!

      [mocking, sarcasm]

      • HonestDebate1

        Not quite. His obvious attempt to sabotage his signature legislation merely resulted in a lawsuit. It wasn’t near enough to force impeachment from feckless Republicans. That’s my point Brett, he has to get more blatantly lawless for his dastardly agenda to work. That worries me.

        And if you don’t think there is extreme reservation because he’s the first mulatto President than I am astonished. How many times have we heard the baseless accusation from the democrat party?

  • HonestDebate1

    Here is a handy map that shows the average health insurance premium hikes by State. While there are several States that show no change there are none that show an average decrease as was promised. There are 39 more shoes to drop so that will not stay put. The country’s average is a 7.5% increase.

    http://www.pwc.com/us/en/health-industries/health-research-institute/aca-state-exchanges.jhtml

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15E7goj7Fmo

  • HonestDebate1

    For some bizarre reason a few commenters are poo pooing the threat of disease posed by the illegal aliens coming across our border. Evidently they want more evidence as if any evidence at all is needed. It should be assumed as the default scenario. That’s the way immigration works.

    • jefe68

      You left out a little bit of info here. But lets not let facts get in the way of your constant screeds and memes on the subject.

      More than 90 percent of Central Americans are vaccinated against the disease.

      Due to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), Guatemalan kids are more likely than Texans to be immunized for most infectious diseases. Guatemala has universal health care. Vaccines are 100 percent funded by the government.

      Source: http://www.texasobserver.org/disease-threat-immigrant-children-wildly-overstated/

      • HonestDebate1

        What does that have to do with my point?

        • jefe68

          You’re kidding.

          • Steve__T

            Unfortunately No,

          • HonestDebate1

            Maybe you can tell me, Jeffe refuses.

          • jefe68

            I refuse to indulge fools, this is true.

          • HonestDebate1

            I may be an idiot but I can defend my comments.

          • davecm

            Hang in there HonestD
            A typical response, they stoop to name calling and demonizing.

          • jefe68

            No demonizing, just pointing out that I don’t really like dealing with foolish nonsense, which is my right as is yours.

          • pete18

            But you’re not a troll.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll be alright.

          • Steve__T

            But of, “course” only an Idiot could.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — perhaps [Debates?NotHe] is simply uninformed and/or ignorant as to the difference between exposure to disease, and “the threat from disease.”

            Perhaps he is also uniformed and/or ignorant as to the fact that, per DHS data, “On a typical day, more than 1.1 million passengers and pedestrians …” are processed at US borders.

          • HonestDebate1

            More proxy opinions offered periodically. Hennorama, it’s honest debate, it’s not bait. Quit rising to it.

            Perhaps you don’t realize there is no threat without first being exposed and that border agents are getting sick. Perhaps you don’t realize Texas and Arizona don’t process 1.1 million a day and comprise only a smidgeon of the sum total of our borders. Or that passengers and pedestrians typically do not swim across the Rio Grande. Perhaps you don’t realize documented Americans process a little quicker and easier than parentless, tortured children.

        • davecm

          You will learn these folks have away of misdirecting the conversation. They almost make me think they are students of Alinsky.
          Maybe like that person on the Titanic who refused to believe the ship could possibly be sinking, like refusing to believe our country could possibly, maybe be heading in the wrong direction.

          • jefe68

            How is pointing out that a large percentage of the people in Central America are immunized for most infectious diseases misdirecting anything?

            If the topic is infectious diseases, which HD was on about, then it’s not a misdirection but point that might show that his information is being used more to skew the conversation than anything else.

            When I read a comment like this, “like refusing to believe our country could possibly, maybe be heading in the wrong direction.” I read belligerence more than anything else.

          • HonestDebate1

            You have no idea the percentage of these illegals who are immunized, the efficacy of the medicine if they are or which countries they are from cross referenced with which ones make the attempt and which ones don’t. There is an increasing number of instruction signs at the border written in Chinese. These people could be from anywhere on the planet smarty pants.

          • jefe68

            And you have no idea how many are.
            Most of them are from Honduras and Guatemala

          • HonestDebate1

            What did I make up? That there is no need to worry because they are all immunized? That no one was using Central America as a conduit from elsewhere? You are the one making things up.

          • davecm

            The point is not the diseases, it is the mounting expense our country is taking on.
            If you haven’t noticed our Nat’l debt is still growing rather fast, If interest go up, well! who cares.

          • jefe68

            HD was on about diseases. Which was his point. Wait, are you misdirecting the conversation… A little bit of a hypocrite are we now.

          • HonestDebate1

            Oh I learned that long ago. The more you try to keep them on point, the angrier they get. Then the insults ratchet up and they look silly. It’s almost too easy.

      • hennorama

        jefe68 — what is also fascinating is the fear goggle-wearing Chicken Littles [many of whom are conservatives/Republicans/TEA Shindiggers] are effectively saying that the Federal government should provide universal and free health care to detained migrants.

        • HonestDebate1

          Who is saying that?

    • anamaria23

      My line of work and life experience do not support “assuming” . I try not to make statements that I could not support in a court of law. Even though I am mistaken at times, I do try to not willfully present erroneous or vague statements. I am not wedded to any agenda and often change my position.
      IN this particular discussion I actively seek out evidence and cite what I have found. Statements such as “a lot” mean not much to me.
      Far from poo-pooing, I actively seek facts. it is of some concern to the population at large to be hypervigilant in this regard.
      I believe that recently you stated to the effect that Obama is bringing “biological weapons” from Liberia into the country, when in fact, two infected Americans are being brought here for treatment lest they die in Liberia.
      I found your statement to be reckless, meant to incite,
      and pointless.

      • HonestDebate1

        We all assume every day, I don’t think you got my point. You assumed there were no cases of H1N1 the other day. You are assuming the threat of disease is minimal. Others have assumed Central America’s citizens are well vaccinated. Those assumptions are dangerous.

        Look at it this way, if you knew someone had poisoned one out of a hundred bottles of water would you assume the bottle you chose was safe and drink it because you had no evidence it was the poisoned one? Or would you assume it was poison and avoid it?

        • 1Brett1

          Yep, no precautionary measures are being taken or safeguards are used when it comes to citizens coming to this country, sick or healthy — and you are right, that is just like choosing a poisoned bottle of water without any testing or precaution…Great way to elevate conversation.

          BTW, I saw anamaria’s comment about H1N1 the other day. First, she isn’t in charge of the doctor with ebola (I presume), nor is she in charge of processing the children coming from south of the border (I presume), where they certainly are NOT haphazardly drinking poisoned water as their methodology. Her assumption was brief in a conversation; she also quickly corrected herself because she decided not to assume.

          Besides, you are the one advocating for making assumptions in critical situations where risk can be reasonably determined, and you are implying that those in charge are doing nothing but making risky assumptions; but, this is typical of your straw man building techniques. You are implying the treatment of the ebola cases or the children at the border are nothing other than wanton disregard for safety and that this is what is being employed.

          Oh, and we all saw your cheesy comment about Obama bringing “biological weapons” across the border and your subsequent explanation when challenged…such tripe.

          • HonestDebate1

            It went right over your head.

            I didn’t say any of that. Erring on the side of caution is prudent, that’s all. Do you assume the numbers Anamaria cited were correct? Or that accurate numbers are even obtainable? And BTW, I was mistaken, there are actually 90 bottles of water that have been poisoned. To me it makes no difference, I will assume they are all poison.

          • 1Brett1

            Talk about going over one’s head. Everything in the real world carries risk, and most ways we operate are based on a risk assessment.

            No, you didn’t say any of that; you never say anything, directly, just imply and infer so you can take aim and shoot. You make a lot of vague associations in an effort to distort. Why bring up anamaria’s initial comment about H1N1 in the first place if not for the sake of distortion to win some pointless point? It had nothing to do with your comment above, really.

            I agree with anamaria but would broaden it to a more general statement: your comments are meant to incite, are reckless and are pointless.

          • HonestDebate1

            Don’t try to figure it out Brett, you’re head might explode. Besides that you are wrong about what you think I think. Anamaria can speak for herself, she might actually get it. She doesn’t need you to show her the way.

            Why do you always seem to view things in terms of winning? I am merely making a point about being prudent and not wearing rose colored glasses.

          • 1Brett1

            Nope, it is you who is trying to win something. Even if you lose a particular point, you express on this forum that you are victorious, which is a “winning” mindset. So, “winning” is never any kind of objective on my part. I am making a point, as well; and, while anamaria can certainly speak for herself, I happen to agree with her view and disagree with yours. To borrow one of your tired, pat replies: sue me!

            Who is seeing things through rose-colored glasses? Only your characterization of other viewpoints looks at those opinions of others in such a facile way. Also, what in the hell do you think I think you think? That is such a silly and hypocritical statement, designed as a deflection. My point is that society manages reasonable risks.

            My impression is that you’re trumping up issues regarding diseases of the children coming across the border — as part of a larger beef about immigration reform — as well as mounting a criticism about the ebola-infected doctor (I have my opinions about that part, but you wouldn’t like them and would resort to your usual litany of glib replies and mud-slinging), and now you’re back-peddling your initial tact by claiming all you are saying is that it is good to be prudent. Sorry, but it isn’t rocket science figuring you out; nobody is telling you what you think, merely replying to what you write. You are not gravely misunderstood, despite your intimations that you are.

  • HonestDebate1

    Has anyone noticed how the claim premiums would be reduced by an average of $2500/family is no longer cited? There is zero expectation that it will come to pass. No one even expects rates to stay put and now some are laughably trying to defend it by saying they aren’t going up any more than they would have without Obamacare. Maybe the 39 more aspects will help when they kick in. Maybe Obama disregarded the improvements they would bring, threw politics aside and sadly decreed it for our own good until after the elections. And don’t forget, as of now 3/4′s of the states are no longer eligible for subsidies, maybe that will help them.

    So now the absurdity desperately turns to the notion that Obamacare merely didn’t stop the increases with no outrage over the broken promise.

    And don’t even get me started on deductibles.

  • Obamunism 2.0

    New York Times reports that between January and March of this year, the Obama Administration is and will spend $17 million a month advertising for ObamaCare

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/03/20/NYT-Administration-plays-to-young-in-health-push

    • hennorama

      Obamunism 2.0 — this is the “Week In The News” forum, not the “19 Weeks Ago In History” forum.

      Try to keep up.

      • davecm

        Why is it that we want to be long on comments and short on memory. If I lied to you to sell you a car with problems and you bought it, I think years later when you needed another car, you might want to remember me.

        • hennorama

          davecm–congratulations on your new position as spokesperson for the entity [currently] known as [Obamunism 2.0].

          • pete18

            nice non-response.

          • hennorama

            pete18 — TY for your very kind words.

          • pete18

            No problem.

          • davecm

            No I am not, just amazed how some want the topic of Obamacare to go away. There may come a time went I get to say, I told you so!

          • hennorama

            davecm — thank you for you response.

            If you believe the intent of my post was that I “want the topic of Obamacare to go away,” you are incorrect.

            The intent, which seems rather obvious, is to point out that [Obamunism 2.0]‘s chosen topic and treasured link were “News” back in March of this year, and not this week.

            Kinda simple, no?

    • ExcellentNews

      Our Republican “job creators” spent $1.5 billion a month SABOTAGING our elected President. That amount is dwarfed only by the profits they make from foreign slave labor and domestic predatory lending/gambling/media.

  • HonestDebate1
  • HonestDebate1

    Much to the chagrin of many commenters here, and Jon Stewart, Congress voted to replenish Israel’s Iron Dome. Obviously neither reflect the views of mainstream America. Given the overwhelming bipartisan support, it is of interest to me who voted against it.

    It was passed in the Senate by unanimous consent with no roll call vote. It passed in the House 395-8. There were several who didn’t vote, I suppose I shouldn’t speculate as to why. Four Republicans and four democrats voted nay. They are:

    Walter Jones R-NC
    Nutcase Philanderer R-SC
    Justin Amash R-MI
    Thomas Massie R-KY
    Beto O’Rourke D-TX
    Jim Moran D-VA
    Zoe Lofgren D-CA
    Keith Ellison D-MN

    I am most disappointed in Keith Ellison who is a Muslim. A great opportunity to publicly support the Muslim faith was lost.

    • JS

      Couldn’t, or shouldn’t, Israel pay for this themselves. US sends approximately $7,000,000 a week to Israel. That works out to like $1/week per Israeli. I think they can afford that, more than the US can. Or does the US Debt not mater, as Cheney said?

      • HonestDebate1

        A secure Israel is in America’s interest. We send plenty to the PLO too. It is not up to me to decide who gets what and Congress overwhelmingly approved this. That’s my point, when 8 out of 535 politicians vote against something it’s illustrative to look at it.

        And please, enough with the Cheney nonsense. For one thing he didn’t say that, he said deficits, For another it was Paul O’Neil who said he said it to sell books. For another no one cares what Cheney said in a second hand absurdly out of context private conversation. For another Obama didn’t suddenly quadruple the deficit because Cheney said it was cool. For another sometimes deficits don’t matter if the situation is dire enough or if the economy is strong. It’s just such a tired talking point.

        I don’t mean to dump on you because you are not alone in parroting it as significant but it’s a complete non-sequitur.

        • JS

          A secure Israel is also in Israel’s interest, and they can afford it, so they should pay for it.

          “It is not up to me to decide who gets what” – Thankfully no one is asking you to decide. Deciding and having an opinion are two different things.

          So, should we spend money we don’t have to give to an Israel that can afford the Iron Dome on their own?

          As to my Cheney (mis)quote: it illustrates the lack of attention paid by most on the right to the debt and deficit until a Democrat was in power. They still ignore the debt and deficit for their pet projects, while railing against spending.

          • HonestDebate1

            Speaking of debt, we don’t have money for anything. Not a dime. The price of a unsecured Israel is too high, so yes I support it along with the overwhelming voice in Congress. You are in the minority which is fine.

            Wow, that’s a real leaping effort to demonize the right. Maybe you’re too young to remember when Bush spent like a drunken sailor, town hall meeting erupted all over the country ultimately resulting in the Tea Party. So you’re wrong. And that was over spending that makes Bush look like Scrooge compared to Obama.

          • JS

            But Israel should be able to afford it, thats my point. hey CAN pay for it, but do not, so they can then say how prosperous their society is.

            “most on the right”

            The Tea Party started in the lead up to the 2008 election, and after the Democrats took control of Congress. . There was mostly quiet for the other 6 years of the Bush administration and Republican control of Congress, but maybe you are too young to remember that.

          • HonestDebate1

            It started with the town hall meetings but had been simmering since Bush’s attempt at immigration reform. There was plenty of objection to his spending. We don’t see much criticism from the left over Obama putting Bush’s spending on steroids but the left sure criticized Bush. Senator Obama said his raising the debt limit was unpatriotic.

          • JS

            So, should Israel pay for their own defense and offense since they can afford it?

            I don’t see one side right and the other wrong, I see both as wrong usually and criticize both when I see fit. There was, like I implied, some dissent against Bush’s spending (“mostly quiet”) but the Tea Party didn’t take off until Democrats were in control.

  • HonestDebate1

    Now we learn people from 75 different countries are coming across our border through Central America. That includes 71 who have been caught trying to enter, or turned themselves in, from 3 countries with ebola outbreaks. Terrific.

  • Andrea Stephen

    That amount is dwarfed only by the profits they make from foreign slave labor and domestic predatory lending/gambling/media.

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