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Hashtags, Hamas And Israel-Gaza On Social Media

Social media is changing how the world sees and talks about Israel and Gaza, Israelis and Palestinians. We’ll look at the impact.

Smoke and fire from the explosion of an Israeli strike rises over Gaza City, Tuesday, July 29, 2014. Israel escalated its military campaign against Hamas on Tuesday, striking symbols of the group's control in Gaza and firing tank shells that shut down the strip's only power plant in the heaviest bombardment in the fighting so far. (AP)

Smoke and fire from the explosion of an Israeli strike rises over Gaza City, Tuesday, July 29, 2014. Israel escalated its military campaign against Hamas on Tuesday, striking symbols of the group’s control in Gaza and firing tank shells that shut down the strip’s only power plant in the heaviest bombardment in the fighting so far. (AP)

The battle over Gaza, Hamas and Israel is not only played out in bomb shelters and obliterated streets.  More than ever this time, it is playing out in social media all over the world.  Twitter feeds, Facebook, YouTube – all full of images and emotion from both sides.  A torrent of instant reports and reactions to terrible scenes of fear and suffering.  From reporters, governments, militaries – and lots of civilians.  There has always been a battle for world opinion here.  Now it’s bigger than ever.  This hour On Point:  social media in the thick of the battle over Gaza.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Roger Cohen, international op-ed columnist for the New York Times. Author of the forthcoming memoir, “The Girl From Human Street: Ghosts of Memory in a Jewish Family.” Also author of “Hearts Grown Brutal” and “Soldiers and Slaves.” (@NYTimesCohen)

Mona Eltahawy, writer and public speaker on Arab and Muslim issues. (@monaeltahawy)

Michael Dahan, lecturer in the department of communication and public policy at Sapir Academic College in Ashkelon, Israel. (@panopti)

Emily Neilson, director of operations at the Face of Israel, a non-profit advocacy group. (@emilyneilson3)

From Tom’s Reading List

Slate: Twitter Is Changing How the Media Covers the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict — “Twitter was not even three years old when Israel launched Operation Cast Lead, its last, and far bloodier, incursion into Gaza, and Twitter was certainly not the indispensible tool for gathering and disseminating news that it has since become.”

New York Times: At Front Lines, Bearing Witness in Real Time — “My social media feed has taken a bloody turn in the last few weeks, and I’m hardly alone. Along with the usual Twitter wisecracking and comments on incremental news, I have seen bodies scattered across fields and hospitals in Ukraine and Gaza. I have read posts from reporters who felt threatened, horrified and revolted.”

Reuters: In Gaza, new arsenals include “weaponized” social media — “The public relations tug-of-war has long been understood as a central element of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian leaders like Yasser Arafat were credited with skillfully courting international media during the first Intifada to highlight the Palestinian struggle and help sway public opinion.”

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • DonW

    Missing The Big Picture!
    The President is in charge of successfuly forging agreements!

    • Michael Gotthelf

      As a long time listener to Tom’s program I was SHOCKED to hear this one sided discussion. I have always thought of Tom as reasoning, reasonable, fair and insightful. Today’s show included only one point of view regarding Gaza. Those who expressed any pro Israel sentiment were immediately cut off.

      It appeared to be a subtle way to promote the Palestinian cause, with no allowance for a reply from anyone with the majority Israeli view. This is not “Shining the light of day”.

      a more balanced view can be found in this Huffington Post article:

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/post_8056_b_5602701.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

  • Jeremiah Bullfrog

    The following scenario is what will most likely happen in this conflict.
    Israel will pull out of Gaza when they feel they have had a productive purge of all things Hamas.
    Hamas will begin re-stocking the rockets, weapons, ammunition, building the tunnels, etc
    Israel will continue to beef up the Iron Dome capacity and it’s military in general.
    They will continue with their settlement expansion.
    Hamas will fire some rockets, maybe kidnap a few kids, and when Israel decides enough time has passed since the last purge, they will use some Hamas action as pretext for going back in and doing it all over again.
    And both Israel and Hamas top brass will not openly admit it, but this cycle of violence is more acceptable to both sides than an all-out war – for many complicated reasons.
    And even though Israel complains about this situation, and having to go to bomb shelters, and living with some fear – the leadership knows that this “arrangement” isn’t actually all that bad, when you consider potential alternatives.
    And even though Hamas complains about this situation, and how they have to defend the Palestinian people from the oppressors, they also benefit from this “arrangement” in that they can continue to fight the fight, receive aid from Iran and elsewhere, and not be totally destroyed by a massive Israeli offensive.
    You may say this account is very cyncial – and it is – but I don’t think it is too far from the reality of the situation.
    Do you?
    I’d like to hear why or why not.

    • Steve_in_Vermont

      I couldn’t agree more. As Rhett Butler said “Frankly Scarlet, I don’t give a damn”. And I haven’t for years since there’s absolutely nothing I (or we) can do about it.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Because, as we all know so well – that small wars always lead to peace!

  • spiral007

    Please comment on the rise of paid trolls on the social media on this topic. I am aware of JIDF and have read about a fund directly managed by Netanyahu on paying university students for posting pro-Israel posts on the social media.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      We, the people who read things on the Internet – have to use our best judgment about all “news sources” – while at the same time, we are privileged to get far more access to information than we ever have in the past.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    There’s a bill in both houses of Congress this week to fund Israel’s Iron Dome. Why is the US in the business of supplying the defense industry of other country’s with US taxpayer bucks?

    If an Israeli dies because the government is too stupid to get out of the occupied territories why is that the concern of folks in Indiana? Israel isn’t our country.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Please define “D.D’S”?

      • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

        See following hour w. Tom Ashbrook. Hoober Doober

  • Jack

    What I don’t understand is celebrities who speak out on a topic and then are shocked and upset when they get backlash. They always defend their comments as “free speech” and get angry that fans and the public are upset at them expressing their opinions. However, just because your speech is free (in that you can say something) doesn’t mean you are or should be immune from criticism of your views. Ordinary people aren’t immune from criticism, so why should celebrities be immune?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Facebook is for children.

    Twitter is overloaded with comments unsorted or not prioritized by relevance, importance, or expertise. Thus, it’s a just a loud pounding noise.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    How many hashtags does the Pope have?
    –J. Stalin, twitter handle = Uncle Joe

  • spiral007

    Why the panel consists of three pro-Israel persons and one questionable (Egypt now is totally in the Israeli camp). Could you not find a single panelist who could provide an opposing viewpoint!

    • Jack

      I would hardly regard this panel as “pro-Israel.” They’re being fairly balanced.

      • spiral007

        Well, The show has just started…I am going by their past affiliations!

        • Jack

          Never judge a book by it’s cover :)

          • spiral007

            The analogy does not apply my friend!

          • Jack

            Fine; don’t judge a program by it’s guest list since you don’t understand how to use an analogy.

  • J__o__h__n

    New media. Same old problem. What new social media will there be the next time this inevitably flares up again?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Make the world safe for children. Abolish Israel — at the United Nations.*

    * Then you can do the same with Russia & Syria.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I’m not going to THAT border, either.
    –Barack Hussein {Visionary for all Time}

  • spiral007

    Moral equivalence of one Israeli soldier versus Palestinian civilians!!! Keep it up Roger, or is it Michael!

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    NO OCCUPY = NO WAR.
    Pretty simple. Even for Jewish international management consultants.*

    * B. Netanyahu, example.

  • Floyd Blandston

    Until Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist, and stops firing rockets over the border, I don’t care. Let Gaza burn, let civilians suffer; until they learn these two simple things, I don’t care.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      That’s so moral of you.

      • Floyd Blandston

        Yes, it is.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The Arab world and most of the international community are NEVER going to recognize Israel as a J-E-W-I-S-H state. That doesn’t mean recognizing its existence as a nation. But not and never as a THEOCRACY. Got it now?

    • Jack

      That’s because they are only ever going to recognize an Arab state of Palestine.

  • hellokitty0580

    Even if Hamas started bombing Israel, I think to a certain extent Israel brought it on themselves. Since 2008 they haven’t done anything to lessen the pressure on Palestinians. You back people into a corner and they become desperate. Palestinians are desperate. Will a two-state solution ease tensions? If so, make it happen Israel. That may go way further toward Israeli security than this on the ground, armed invasion has.

    Additionally, whether Israel or the West likes it or not, Palestinians voted in Hamas as their political leadership. That’s democracy folks. Democracy isn’t whoever the United States condones as acceptable. I’m not absolving the guilt of Hamas for they have not been fully guiltless. But I cannot ignore the dis-proportionality of this conflict.

    • SteveTheTeacher

      “Even if Hamas started bombing Israel. . .”

      It should be noted, that, under that previous peace treaty, Hamas stopped almost, but not all, bombing of Israel for 2 years. After the three Israeli students were kidnapped and murdered, Israel arrested Hamas leaders and bombed some of their homes. Following that, Hamas started bombing in retaliation.

      • jeffsalzberg

        Yes. After Hamas attacked Israelis, ams attacked Israelis. Got it.

      • hellokitty0580

        Yes, there was provocation.

      • Jack

        I wouldn’t call an average of 20 rocket attacks per month since 2009 (with only one month without any rocket attacks) “almost stopping;” maybe turning down the frequency, but not stopping.

  • jeffsalzberg

    To mention the European protests against Israel without mentioning that so many of them are couched in the vilest anti-semitic terms is a lie by omission. To mention the death of a palestinian child without mentioning that Hamas has placed its rocket bases next to, or within, hospitals, schools, and apartments is a lie of omission.

    Today’s show was very well-balanced, representing, as it did, the entire range from “pro-Palestinian” to “VERY pro-Palestinian.”

    • Jack

      Especially Mona Eltahawy, who has used rather inflammatory language in her comments so far.

      • Floyd Blandston

        Her final statement was particularly troubling. She’ll pay for it with her credibility, for certain.

        • Jack

          I would like to believe that were true, but I doubt it. I expect her to be hailed as courageous. Of course, she did say that she would speak the truth that she thinks the world needs to see (or words to that effect), which would imply that she’s either not seeing or not willing to see the whole truth. Either way, it’s troubling.

          • Floyd Blandston

            A reporter without objectivity finds a limited voice at best- good enough for me.

  • SteveTheTeacher

    Israeli’s and Jewish people world wide have well founded fears of a rise in anti-Jewish sentiments. Yes, it is wrong to criticize all Israelis or all those of Jewish decent, however, that does not imply that the Israeli government’s actions are above condemnation.

    It is also true that the Hamas murder of three innocent civilians, through their indiscriminate bombing is a horrible war crime. However, the Netanyahu government’s response including the unconscionable murder of nearly two hundred children, wounding of thousands of other children, and the forcing of hundreds of thousands from there homes is a deplorable crime against humanity, is orders of magnitude more draconian than can be reasonably justified.

    I doubt that a just peace will ever come from the Israeli or Palestinian leadership. The only hope seems to be from Israeli, Palestinian, Jewish, Arab, and other people coming together to bring about peace and justice such as the effort below:

    https://www.facebook.com/JewsAndArabsRefuseToBeEnemies

    • Jack

      It would be great if that would happen, but too many Palestinians support Hamas and support their ideology of Israeli eradication. I don’t know that the Israelis will ever be able to find a viable, open partner for peace.

      • SteveTheTeacher

        The masses of Israelis do not belong to peace and social justice groups just like the masses of Palestinians do not belong to peace and social justice groups.

        Be they a minority, peace and social justice activists do exist in Israel and Palestine. It is not an easy path, but I have much more hope for their way than anything else.

        • Jack

          I think most Israelis are aloof towards the peace movement because they don’t believe the Palestinians want peace; if they felt that the average Palestinian was willing to share the land with them, they might be more motivated towards openly supporting the peace movement.

          And, I don’t think Palestinians really trust the Israelis either since they constantly hear that the slice of land occupied by Israel belongs to them and only them since they where knee high.

  • hellokitty0580

    Free speech is great, but I wouldn’t suggest giving much credence to what Rihanna or Dwight Howard has to say about this conflict. What does Rihanna know about this conflict or the history of Israel in the Middle East. Does she have a degree in Middle Eastern Studies or Political Science with a focus on the Middle East? Does she even have a degree? No. And it’s unfortunate if this is how people are learning about the conflict.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Rahm Emanuel has really screwed up running the city of Chicago. Maybe Obama will appoint him to be the new Mideast peace ambassador. You know: because the USA is an honest broker.

  • Ray in VT

    We were winning Vietnam? Yeah, right. Tet sort of disproved that. The caller said that the land was given by the world, but what about the people who were already living there? They weren’t too keen on having their land given away.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      We weren’t winning in Vietnam when I was in the Navy during Vietnam. Must be GOPer-written history per Soviet Union style manual. HD

      • Ray in VT

        We bombed the heck out of the country, shot it all to hell and couldn’t defeat the VC and the NVA. I don’t think that they would have ever given up, so I don’t think that it was necessarily a winnable war, as many of these asymmetrical are not, at least not in a traditional sense.

    • Jack

      I agree with you in part, except there were already a lot of Jews living in Mandatory Palestine, and there would have been even more if the British hadn’t restricted immigration to Mandatory Palestine in the 30s and 40s. Of course, there would have been even more Jews in Mandatory Palestine after the war as well, if, well, you know, they weren’t ruthlessly murdered by the millions because they had no place to flee to when Germany fired up the crematoria in Central Europe…

      I should also add that there were no restrictions on Arab immigration to Palestine during the same era.

    • Bob g

      Yes, please.. please give back the land your pooping on to the original owners: navajo’s, apaches, iroquois, etc. You stole their land. Now leave, run.. oh.. but you won’t because they don’t fire missiles at you from their children’s bedrooms. hmmm.. you have no clue.

  • Jack

    “Palestinians haven’t been getting a fair hearing in the US”? Well, Israelis haven’t been getting a fair hearing in Europe or the Arab world, and they’re certainly not getting a fair hearing from Ms. Eltahawy.

    • 65noname

      it’s the US that supplies israel with all its weapons and money.

      • Jack

        And the Arabs give the Palestinians money and weapons; what’s your point?

        • 65noname

          let me spell it out for you. your first comment attempted to make one of those false equivlancies, in your case an attempt to claim that israel doesn’t get a so-called hearing fair hearing in europe and so-called arab countries and that is equivlant to palestinians not getting a fair hearing in the US. my point is that it matters a great deal what happens in the US, much more than eleswhere, because israel, espically it military is financed almost entirely, by the US and americans.
          and, no, “the arabs [don't] give the Palestinians [very much] money and weapons”. first, of course, isreal controls all access to the west bank and, certainly to gaza. and, second, the US and israel control all palestinian access to international financial institutions. that’s part of the current problem; israel is pissed that the palestinians have a unified government so they have cut off all palestinian access to its OWN money.

          • Jack

            First, my point is equivalent. There is 0 coverage of the threat to and damage done by Hamas to Israel, nor is there coverage of the threat to Israel by Arab nations in Arab nations except.Period. As the Palestinians are backed by Arab states like Qatar (and non-Arab states like Turkey). The Palestinians also receive financial assistance from Europe and the US. Therefore, my point absolutely germane.

            Second, Fatah does have the cash it needs to run civil society in the West Bank. That there is not enough for the Gaza Strip is a failure of negotiations between Fatah and Hamas and not the result, fault, or responsibility of Israel or the US.

            The vociferousness of your comments does not alleviate their erroneousness.

          • 65noname

            the erroneousness of your comments does not allivate their vociferousness.
            but, whatever.

          • Jack

            Ooo, snappy comback.

          • 65noname

            thanks. I thought that it was pretty good given the innanity of your comment.

          • Jack

            You’re right: I should not have said that because it brings me down to your level. I appologise.

          • 65noname

            apology accepted. but you still have a long way to go to rise to my level.

          • 65noname

            apology accepted. but you still have a long way to go rise to my level.

  • hennorama

    According to many, “a stupid YouTube video” did not spread via social media (and TV) in Egypt and elsewhere, before the attacks on the US diplomatic and CIA facilities in Benghazi.

    • Ray in VT

      Of course. If only our embassy in Egypt hadn’t said that our government didn’t make or endorse the video, then the terrorist (sic) would not have been emboldened …. or something.

      • hennorama

        Ray in VT — I believe the concept is something along the lines of “View counts on YouTube are the absolute authority on the number of people who have seen a video clip.”

  • JP_Finn

    Show me one news show guest who can state their position or views on Israel/Palestine in a clear, concise statement, and without rambling on until the host has to yank them off the air / cut to commercial. Just one. Either side of the debate. Pro-Palestinian or Pro-Israel; I don’t care.

    • http://www.facebook.com/loring.palmer.9 L Swift Palmer

      JP Finn: see comment above re ‘Democracy Now’ for a news show that promotes full explanation of their positions.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Occupy someone else’s land = dig two graves.
    Just like in Donetsk.

  • phillip schmidt

    Social media is great for arguments based on pathos. But is short on logos. We should be very suspect of any claim made on social media until we can verify authenticity.

    • M S

      Like every form of media.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Global sea level rise should reduce some of the pressure in the middle east re: living together. Palestinians and Jews breeding like flies will obviate that happy prospect.

  • Bob g

    There cannot be a 2-state solution. All Jews are infidels to the muslim belief, thus all Jews must be destroyed – simply as a matter of muslim religious policy. Once all jews are gone, the next target will be Catholics, Protestants, Buddists, agnostics, atheists, scientologists, etc. etc. etc. This is the their global mission. And they (as they did this morning shooting a woman because she wouldn’t put on her hajib) will kill their own. There cannot be, and will not be a jewish state next to many muslim states.. because – muslims want you dead! Really, even the soft speaking, intellectually developed muslims.. want you dead. They just are willing to wait till your back is turned and you trust them much. Then you’re dead. They can win the current PR war, because they’re good at it. But, like cockroaches, they plan to outlive you. Foretold is forewarned.

    • M S

      You must be from the South.

    • brettearle

      You are, hopelessly, a BIG part of the problem.

      To vilify one who large religious/ethnic group. like that, is Pathetic.

      Please retire to a hole in the ground.

  • http://www.facebook.com/loring.palmer.9 L Swift Palmer

    Media coverage is outstanding on Amy Goodman’s http://www.democracynow.org.: Daily updates by correspondent, Sharif Abdul Koudous from Gaza. He also writes for “The Nation.”

    • brettearle

      Disqus

  • Avanti Kulkarni

    I feel bad about the kids!! No war should kill innocent kids!! I think Israel just made billions of Palestine supporter through this war thanks to Social media!! I was very neutral on this position, until this war. Agree with Ms. Mona 100%.

    • brettearle

      You sound like you know what the TRUTH really is.

      We salute you that you have figured this out.

      Please tell me how I can purchase your autograph….

      • Avanti Kulkarni

        Tell me one reason why anyone should support Israel for killing kids?? I mean seriously.. why should I support a side which is killing kids and attacking schools and shelters??

        • brettearle

          Well, of course, you were THERE.

          So, you know, FIRST HAND, what happened.

          THAT’S why you don’t believe Media sources, one way or another…..

          Because,

          YOU WERE THERE AND YOU
          ARE THERE

          How SILLY OF ME…

          I should have KNOWN that you are ONE of the FOREMOST authorities….

          How, just HOW, could I have missed that?

          • Avanti Kulkarni

            If not media whom do we believe … oh wait YOU!! You are the one who knows it all… or you pretend… and belittle everyone else. You are always right and others wrong!!oh ya and you did not give even one reason for supporting someone for killing kids!

          • brettearle

            I expose Bias.

            I DON’T claim the Truth.

            Your Bias is even WORSE than I thought….

            Because you can’t see the difference between MY Intention and YOUR distorted perception.

            And THERE lies your ignorance.

            Your Witness….

          • Avanti Kulkarni

            Lol… you are amazingly boisterous about not knowing any truth and calling my perception distorted!!

          • brettearle

            Who’s going to have the Last Word?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Jews can’t push their way around the world rubbing the noses of others in dog poo and not expect savage reprisals. As we used to say in the US Navy: payback is a mother… And the accounts will be balanced.

    • brettearle

      Quite close, you are, to being sick.

  • spiral007

    Emily, who provides most of the funds for your entity: “Face of Israel”?

  • TyroneJ

    Social media is changing the perception of war, but probably not for the better. As many of the ISIS & Gaza videos underscore, the distinction between “civilians” and “combatants” is pretty arbitrary. Unfortunately, what I predict social medias greatest influence will be 20 years from now is to remove that distinction with the result that for more & more of these organizations, scorched earth war fighting (‘kill everything that moves”) will become more acceptable. And not just because scorched earth war fighting leaves no one to broadcast to social media other than the people doing the scorching.

  • Jack

    To the caller Mia: I agree, share the land. Now if we could just get the Palestinian leadership to agree to sharing it.

    • brettearle

      Jack,

      You and I, we seem to have similar opinions about what might be going on, in the Middle East.

      But let’s not forget the Settlements ISSUE, regarding Land-Sharing.

      • Jack

        I agree that settlements are a key problem. Personally, if the Palestinians were willing to compromise on letting Israel have East Jerusalem, I’d be the first get to stand up and say “Every settler out or take your chances with a Palestinian government.” I am emphatic about East Jerusalem because I don’t think that the Palestinians would respect Jewish religious rights in the city if they controlled it, based on the Jordanian rule of the city and what happened with Joseph’s Tomb in 2000.

        • brettearle

          Maybe, I am mistaken. But Bibi’s possessiveness of Jerusalem is tighter than you’re describing.

          We also must respect Christian rights in Jerusalem. That goes without saying.

          But I am simply outraged by the Media and Public bias towards Israel.

          • Jack

            Oh, I’m sure Bibi would never give it up. And, we must respect access rights of all faiths to their specific shines (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) and we must find an effective way to adjudicate between access for Muslims to the Dome and the place of a rebuilt Jewish Temple, if that is what Jews want.

            My point was I don’t trust the Palestinians to respect the rights of non-Muslims. Right after the IDF evacuated Ramallah in 2000, Joseph’s Tomb was sacked by a Palestinian mob, and there have been attempts to curb or prevent Jewish pilgrimage and to convert the site into a specifically Islamic shrine. Then there’s the wanton destruction of antiquities at the Al-Aqsa Mosque site in order to erase a Jewish presence in the region.

            However, if the Palestinians would concede Jerusaelm in exchange for all of the West Bank, I think Israeli’s should just take it. Not that I think it will happen by any stretch. Ehud Barak offered Arafat everything including East Jerusalem and limited right of return and Arafat still turned it down because he wanted all of Jerusalem and unrestricted right of return. I don’t have any hopes that the Palestinian leadership will be willing to share, primarily because they’ve been promising their own people for so long that they won’t have to share.

          • Bob g

            With respect.. you, and others, are seriously over thinking this matter. I have lived all over the territory there.. and it is beyond overwhelmingly clear: the islamist teaching, its mission on earth: purge the world of all infidels. This originates from the separation of Ishmael from Isaac who shared a father. Ishmael, they believe, is the originator of their progeny. Mohammed canonized it, as Peter did for the what became the catholic church. For you, or anyone in America, or the world, to continue to pontificate about what would be the ‘ideal solution’ to this seems sadly comical. When Israel and the Jews are destroyed, and the islamists come after your future generations (and they will!), it will be the final war of the world: between the Islamists and the infidels. All the well meaning opinionists aside, this matter will resolve with the death of one or the other nations. It isn’t cynical, it is the matter between Ishmael and Issac.

          • jimino

            A more perfect example of why this conflict will never be resolved while there are still believers in this story could not be written.

    • 65noname

      they already have; all the palestinian factions, from the PA to hamas, has agreed to a state in the 67 borders with a capitol in east juerusleum. however the likud charter, the governing party of israel, states that the west bank was given to israeli jewish people by their imaginary friend, “god” and that it shall belong to them forever, including the right of israeli jewish people to continue toe expand and build new settlements everywhere in the west bank. but, hey, lets not let objective facts get in the way of a good rap.

      • Jack

        Apparently, I misread Sect. 13 of the Hamas charter, which unequivocally calls for the destruction if Israel and identifies the peace process as a waste of time.

        • 65noname

          yes it probably does. but I’ll bet that you never read it; rahter your relying on “quotes” from the israel lobby. but if you conmdemn hamas for sect 13, why don’t you condemn likud, the governing party of israel, for its position?
          e leadership of hamas has contiunally stated that it will accept what I described above. show me any actual quotes from the israeli government that accepts an idependant state; actual quotes, not the usual twisting of israel’s dodging the issue. except, of course, when guys like netenyahu say that there will never be a palestinian state.

          • Jack

            I never said I did or did not condemn Likud, but that wasn’t a question of your post. You said that “all the palestinian factions, from the PA to hamas, has agreed to a state in the 67 borders with a capitol in east juerusleum.” Hamas, both in its charter and in its actions, does not recognize that Israel exists de jure, even if they do recognize the de facto existence of Israel. Therefore, your statement is ostensibly incorrect. Now, if you can show me quotes from Hamas officials that they are willing to make permanent peace with Israel and accept a future Palestinian state only in the 67 borders, I’m all ears, or eyes, as it were.

          • 65noname

            once again, let me spell it out for you. a previous commentor said that the palestinian “leadership” refuses to agree[...] to sharing it”. I responded by pointing out two things; first, that all the palkestinian factions have agreed to share it, and 2. likud, the governing party of israel, has unequvially stated that it will never share the land.

            you responded with a citation sect 13. I responded by asking why you don’t critize likud for its unwillingness to “share” the land.

            you responded by not responding. instead you reframe your own rhetorical questions about hamas without bothering to discuss likud’s claim that it will never permit the west bank to be part of a palestinian state. you certainly never responded to the likud charter. nor do you provide any quotes from any israeli government offical that agrees to an independant palestinian state.

            as for the answer to your last rhetorical quesion, check out the charlie rose show from two nights ago where the hamas leader stated (for the millionth time, including previously on that show and on this program a couple of years ago) that they would accept an independant state in gaza and the wwest bank with a capital in east jeruselem as the end of the conflict.
            now, before you go off on a tangent about whether his fingers were crossed, please provide a response to the governing party of israel’s claim that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to isreali jewish people, that it is theirs forever and that they will continue build settlements all over the west bank. as well as the government quote that I asked for.
            we’re waiting, as it were.

          • Jack

            First, I responded adequately by stating that Hamas’ refusal to amend its charter calling for the destruction of Israel and the inability to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict by any means other than armed struggle and the concurrent failure to produce any statements unequivocally agreeing in principal to a Palestinian state based only the 67 borders is ample evidence that Hamas does not, in fact, subscribe to a two state solution to the conflict. Your response by asking about Likud. I reiterated that this did not matter because that was not the trust of my initial comment comment nor was it related to your comment. I then asked you to provide additional evidence regarding any official pronouncement by Hamas that they accept a future Palestinian state will be peacefully negotiated and based only on the 67 borders. Once we resolve your false claim that Hamas has accepted the possibility of a Palestine coexisting with Israel based on the 67 borders negotiated by peaceful means, we can move on to the Likud charter, but since you brought up Hamas’ acceptance of Israel’s right to exist before Likud, we should resolve that matter first.

          • 65noname

            of course your response was not adequate. and not really worth responding to very much. but a few comments: first, of course, you claimed that hamas has never agreed the ’67 borders. when examples are given you switch your position to claiming that their fingers were crossed when they did so.

            you also attempt to shift from your original question to asking when they will change their charter. Well, as they have said on multiple occasions, they will not recognize a a country that is occupying their country and denies their right to exist. if israel wants to have offical recognition, they need to agree to end the occupation and reecognize the “67 borders, etc. but of course, their governing party’s charter states that they will never do so.

            and, by the way, hamas is a political faction in palestine. the palestinian government has recognized israel’s existence. too bad the israeli government doesn’t recipocrate.

            and, yes, it is very noticable that although you make mutiple demands RE: the hamas charter and recognition of israel, you absolutely refuse to discuss the fact that the charter of the israeli governing party states that “god” gave the west bank to the lsraeli jewish people and that they will never permit a palestinian state. I’d bet that you didn’t even know that about the likud charter because when israeli officals and the lsraeli lobby rant about hamas not being willing to recognize israel they never seem to mention their own charter. only a little hypocritical.
            write back when you have a response about the likud charter and/or a quote from an israeli offical unequvically recognizing the right of palestinians to an independant state in the ’67 borders, etc..

          • Jack

            So, just to be clear and get down to your central point, you won’t provide evidence to show Hamas has recognized Israel’s right to exist becuse…?

          • 65noname

            just to be clear, I provided evidence that hamas has stated on several occasions that it would accept the ’67 borders.
            and just be clearer, you refuse to comment on, or even acknowledge, the fact that the ruling israeli party’s charter states that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to israeli jewish people and that they aren’t going to permit a palestinian state and that they intend to continue building new settlements there forever. Despite the fact that you whiningly claim that hamas refuses to agree to a two state solution.

          • 65noname

            spewers of anti-palestinian rhetoric never seem to have a reply when they are asked to respond to the fact that the charter of the israeli governing party, likud, claims that they will continue to expand settlements, continue to take land from palestinians and will never permit a palestinian state because their imaginary friend, “god” gave the westisraeli jewish people.

          • Jack

            I told you: we’d talk about Likud when you provided conclusive evidence that Hamas had agreed to live within the 67 borders after peaceful negotiation. You didn’t, so I see no reason to move on to what you want to talk about until you can or admit you were wrong. To wit, you’ve done neither.

          • 65noname

            spewers of anti-palestinian rhetoric never seem to have a reply when they are asked to respond to the fact that the charter of the israeli governing party, likud, claims that they will continue to expand settlements, continue to take land from palestinians and will never permit a palestinian state because their imaginary friend, “god” gave the west to israeli jewish people.

          • Jack

            I already said we can discuss Likud when you can provide evidence that Hamas has officially stated they will accept a Palestinian state based on the 67 borders and that they are willing to see the creation of that state by peaceful negotiation. You brought up Likud as a distraction to my rebuttal that your initial claim was incorrect. If you were really looking to influence my opinion, you would give me the information I have asked for rather than assuming I haven’t looked into the stated aims of Bibi’s party; giving me information that I said I do not know is far more effective than assuming I’m too stupid and/or lazy to look up information about Likud on my own.

            When you can show the evidence to support your claim or are willing to admit you made your claim was false and unsubstantiated, I’ll be glad to move on to your point. I can’t move on before then because that would just be giving in to your demands and in consequence I would never receive essential information that you claim to have but failed to produce. I see no reason whatsoever why you should be allowed to dictate the terms of the discussion and make unverifiable claims. So, when you’re ready to admit A) that you were wrong or cite evidence that you were right and B) have an intelligent conversation, look me up. Otherwise, I think we’ve reached the point where I’m just talking to a wall of seemingly fanatical intransigence.

          • 65noname

            like I said, as soon as you ask a spewer of anti-palestinian nonesense to explain likud’s claim that “god” gave them the west bank and they aren’t giving it back, ever, they get very silent.

            by the way, I did respond to your original question. I said ” all the palestinian factions, from the PA to hamas, has agreed to a state in the 67 borders with a capitol in east juerusleum”. you responded ” if you can show me quotes from Hamas officials that they are willing to make permanent peace with Israel and accept a future Palestinian state only in the 67 borders, I’m all ears, or eyes, as it were.”

            although I’m not your research assistant (he or she is waiting on line at the israel lobby website), I responded “check out the charlie rose show from two nights ago where the hamas leader stated (for the millionth time, including previously on that show and on this program a couple of years ago) that they would accept an independant state in gaza and the west bank with a capital in east jeruselem as the end of the conflict.”
            I then asked, once again, for your response to the likud charter statements and for ANY offical israeli statement that it would accept an independant palestinian state.
            you then checked out the israeli lobby playbook where it instructs to stonewall, claim the question wasn’t answered, ask it again and again and then say that palestinians don’t want peace and are forcing israelis to murder their children.
            and by the way, I’m not a member of the amerikan media; you don’t get to define the terms of the discussion. you don’t get to decide which questions I do or don’t have to answer in a manner to your satisfaction while you refuse to answer any questions that are embarassing to the israeli government.
            so your silly, childish and transparent demands aside, we’re waiting, “as it were”.

          • Jack

            I’m actually still waiting on you to provide me with evidence. You are not my research assistant (my undergraduate students are much better at research than you appear to be), that is true, but you did make a claim and I asked you to support it with evidence. Honestly, in reviewing the Charlie Rose interview with Kahled Meshaal, I did not see any of the evidence of supporting a two-state solution at all. In the interview in question, Rose asked Meshaal several times whether or not he would recognize Israel directly on several occasions, but Meshaal demurred saying he did not wish to live with “occupiers.” Now, that could mean he doesn’t recognize Israel as long as they occupy the West Bank, but when asked if he could ever recognize Israel, Meshaal stated that he could coexist with Jews and Christians, but not with an Israeli state specifically. He did say that a future Palestinian state would decide it’s own policies, I will grant you that, but this is a far cry from saying that he supports the creation of a Palestinian state by peaceful negotiation based solely within the 1967 borders. Try again.

          • 65noname

            well, I know that the playbook requires that you dissemble when faced with the truth and/or proof that the israeli government is actually invovled in a murderous campaign of lies and death in order to demonstrate to palestinians that the price for freedom is death. but, never-the-less, the dude said quite clearly that the palestinians would accept a settlement of a state within the ’67 borders. that is exactly what I said that he said, you asked for “proof”.and the charlie rose show, as well as other interviews, is sufficent proof except to those who have a different agenda, to drive paelstinians out of the west bank. it is not my responsiblity to get him to “double swear” just because you are stuck in a bind of your own making.
            and, by the way, of course palestinians don’t want to have anything to do with a country and people who have been murdering them and imprisoning them in an apartheid state for decades. they don’t want to be friends with israel, espically israelis like netenyahu. they simply want to live in freedom in their own country.
            In any case, we’re not following either your agenda or that of the israeli government. your attempts to create excuses for not responding to the likud’s government’s position on a palestinian state are intellectually dishonest and silly.
            not that I actually expect an intellectually honest response from you, but I do await your attempts to explain away the likud government’s statements. try to come up with something a little less boring than what you’ve said so far. Or, don’t.

          • Jack

            First, what did I say that was a lie? Either Meshaal said he accepts a negotiated settlement based on the 67 borders or he does not. Either he accepts the right of Israel to exist or he does not. That he refused to say that an Israel not occupying the West Bank and Gaza strip could be dealt with peacefully is telling. It’s also telling that he referred to even that theoretical entity as an occupier. I will grant you that he did say that an independent Palestine would
            have to negotiate treaties, but he did not say that one would be
            negotiated with Israel. The trouble is that you WANT to hate Israel so badly and you WANT to portray the Israelis as completely beyond the pale of acceptability that you NEED to BELIEVE that Meshaal said he would accept the existence of an Israel based on the 67 borders.

            Second, it is clearly your tactic to say that I am working from some kind of playbook, that I am unreasonable, that I’m not willing to listen to evidence. But I do have a right to say that the evidence you are presenting does not make your case. That is how a debate works. If you don’t want to debate, that’s fine and we can end this right now. But, that does not change the fact that what you are saying is insufficient to demonstrate your point unequivocally. Again, I’m not asking you to get Meshaal to “double swear,” but providing clear evidence and not an ambiguously worded statement which does not mention Israel is the only thing that will effectively make your point. I’m sorry you don’t like that, but it’s just the way it is!

            Third, I think I should point out I’m not here to convince you I’m right: you’re far too stubborn and closed minded to be willing to admit you are wrong. I’m just here to tell you that you are wrong, so do yourself a favor and stop trying to convince and defame me.

          • 65noname

            dude,
            he said that the palestinians would accept the ’67 borders. I also did not say that anything that you said “is a lie” although when I’m sure that when necessary you would so. I said that you are a dissembler. you are. I said that you are intellectually dishonest. you are.
            I also will repeat that what I said was that the palestinians would accept a state in the ’67 borders. when asked when hamas agreed to that, I told you. and, in fact, hamas did say so on that show. the fact that the hamas dude had no desire to engage in a friendly conversation about the apartheid israeli fascistic government is both understandable and beside the point.
            as for your psychobabble personal attacks, well those who oppose the murderous israeli policies are used the israel lobby’s last resort of shifting the arguement to personally attacking the other side.
            by the way, it goes without saying that you once again did not respond to the israeli governing partiy’s clear statement that it would never agree to a palestinian state and will continue to kick palestinians off their farms and homes in order to engage in never ending settlement building. of course you were probably too anxious from making sure that you got all the lsraeli lobby playbook’s lines down.

          • Jack

            You can keep claiming you are right all you want, but that in itself does not make it so.

          • 65noname

            actually its you who spends so much time claiming that you are right. I spend my time pointing out how intellectually dishonest that you are.
            of course, you spend no time responding to the israeli governing party’s dishonesty and lies.

          • Jack

            That’s because I’ve been busy trying to fget you to provide any tangible evidence that Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist. So far, I have yet to be proven incorrect. You have no idea about how I feel about the current government of Israel (you’ve made assumptions, but we all know what assumptions are like), but as that was not part of you original claim, I have neither need or desire to discuss that until we resolve this issue. Once again, just because you want to believe it doesn’t make it true.

          • 65noname

            you have no idea what I believe. you only know what the israeli lobby website tells to claim that I believe.

            of course, I also have not made any comment “about how [you] feel about the current government of israel”. I have only said that you are intellectually dishonest in your conversation about it and israel’s continued crimes of terror against the palestinian people. I could care less what you think about the likud thugs when you’re sitting around the campfire smoking weed.

            and another of your intellectually dishonest comments is that I ever said that hamas would recognize “israel’s right to exist”. Once again, ad nausem, I said that the palestinians would accept a country within the ’67 borders with east jueruselam as the capital as a settlement of the matter. repeat after me: I said “the palestinians would accept a country within the ’67 borders with east jueruselam as the capital as a settlement of the matter.” As the hamas dude stated, the palestinians don’t need to recognize isreal. they need the apartheid government to get out of the west bank and to lift the starvation blockade of the west bank and gaza.
            and we’re still waiting for the israeli lobby to tell you how to respond to the israeli governing party’s claim that “god” gave them the west bank and that they won’t let anyone else play there.

          • Jack

            First, I don’t have to speculate what you think about this topic: you’re making it adequately clear.

            Second, in typing on my iPad, I used “right to exist” as a shorthand for our conversation; now that I’m at a regular keyboard, I can type it out in long form, but boy did you jump all over it as though I had been talking about this the whole time.

            Third, you still haven’t presented anything that suggests Hamas (since that is what we have been talking about) will accept the 67 borders as a peace settlement.The Charlie Rose interview with Meshaal does not lend itself to that conclusion, as evidenced by the fact that Rose had to continually press him on the matter and Meshaal still equivocated. Just because you believe and more importantly WANT to believe that Meshaal was agreeing to a Palestine consisting of the 67 borders created as a result of peaceful negotiation, that doesn’t make it true…like Santa Claus.

            Fourth, I didn’t bring religion into this conversation, you did. I don’t see any reason to dignify what is clearly an attempt at a anti-theistic swipe with a genuine response. But if you insist, I would remind you that Muslims feel they have a greater right to the land than Jews do because their god supposedly promised them the same piece of real estate. Since both sides are making religious claims to the land, there is no point in bringing up the argument except as a means of anti-theistic shaming, but if you’re going to do that, then shame both sides. I know it’s hard for you to think about applying your standards evenly, but I’m sure you can try to do it if you have even a sliver of the intellectual honesty you seem to think that you possess.

            Fifth, the fact that you have no substantive argument is demonstrated by the fact that you have to dismiss me as “sitting around the campfire smoking weed.” Since I have refused to let your statement go until you recant or provide tangible evidence of it’s correctness, you have to resort to ad hominem attack. But, if you don’t care what I think, then why are you trying so hard to steer the conversation in a direction which you think will be more amenable to your perspective?

            And, truth be told, I don’t even like camping; it’s why I joined the US Navy and not the US Army.

          • 65noname

            you attempt to critique my comment by claiming that I have not shown “that Hamas recognizes Israel’s right to exist.”

            when I point out that is another of your intellectually dishonest recasting the conversation, you, 1. make some cswort of claim that you said “Israel’s right to exist” instead of accepting the ’67 borders because of a typing error, very nixonian.
            2. “as though I had been talking about this the whole time”, of course, is gthe whole point as you were somehow, critizing me for pointing out that you were claiming that I had not proved something that we were not discussing. (how was I to know that this particular bit of shape shifting was a typing error instead of your usual intellectual dishonesty?)
            3. once again, the hamas dude agreed to ’67 borders as a settlement on the charlie rose show.
            4. rose kept repeating it because he had a hard time figuring it out because it flew in the face of all the israeli lobby nonsense that he helps to peddle.
            5. I didn’t bring religion into it; likud did. I am simply repeating they’re claim that their imaginary friend, “god” gave them the west bank. You know, the israeli government ruling party’s positions that demonstrate the ly of the israeli lobby’s false claims; the positions that byou seem to be have told to refuse to comment on despite your previous commitment to do so.
            5. whatever “muslims” beleive about who rpomised what land to them. the palestinians are willing to give up that claim. the israeli ruling party most emphatically refuses to do so.
            6. of course you say that it doesn’t matter that the israeli ruling party claims that “god” gave them the west bank because you have no logical way to fit that into your mythical story that israel is prepared to give up the west bank except the “muslim” palestinians would rather have their children murdered by israeli bombs.
            7. most of the rest of your screed is not understandable; but you have been called out for intellectual dishonesty. responding by yelling “no, your vthe one without intellectual honesty”.
            8. despite your long winded personal attacks, it is quite obvious that you are unwilling to respond to the israeli ruling party’s claim that “god” gave them the west bank and the rest of their superstisous rap attempting to justify their terroristic actions.
            10. I’m “trying so hard to steer the conversation in a direction which you think will be more amenable to your perspective?” I’m simply trying to see what lengths that you will go to to avoid responding to the israeli ruling party’s claim that “god” gave israeli jewish people the west bank. and whether the israeli lobby will finally come up with one of its factually twisted stories to cover.
            9. no one cares whether you like to camp. Or what military unit that you claim to have been in.

          • Jack

            1. And not giving the benefit of the doubt is a tactic of the Tea Party. As they say, two can play that came.

            2. I’m criticizing you for your ad hominem attack of “intellectual dishonesty.” I’m criticizing you for your general dishonesty.

            3. You can say it as much as you want, but that doesn’t make it so.

            4. You can say it as much as you want, but that doesn’t make it so.

            5. Yes, you are the one who brought up religion in this conversation.

            5. And there are plenty of Muslims who refuse to exchange land for peace…like Hamas. We’ve been through this already.

            6. I never said that at all. This is your caricaturization of my argument. You need to resort to this because you have no intellectually rigorous response.

            7. Pot calling the kettle black.

            8. Because you have yet to demonstrate, conclusively, that Hamas would be willing to settle the conflict peacefully on the basis of the 67 borders or admit that you made such a statement up out of your own mind. I told you when you do one or the other, we can move on and discuss Likud. Since you haven’t, I’m not going to let you dictate the terms of the conversation.

            10. I’m not a part of “the Israeli lobby,” whatever that is supposed to be, or a part of any lobby.

            9. You’re the one accusing me of sitting around a campfire smoking weed. Clearly, you care. As for the rest, it doesn’t bother me one way or another what you do or do not care about what I have or have not done. Pound sand.

          • 65noname

            1. huh?

            2. huh?

            3. you can deny it as much as you want; that doesn’t make it so.

            4. ditto

            5. no, actually I simply paraphrased the israeli government ruling party’s charter that states that their imaginary friend, “god”, gave them the west bank and they ain’t giving it back. but the israeli ruling party introduced “religion” as their excuse to keep the west bank and displace palestinians.

            6. oh. it must have been another of your computer “typos” that prevents you from responding to the fact that the israeli government eruling party thinks that “god” gave them the west bank. either that or you just don’t think that it matters.

            7. huh? is that a racial or drug reference?

            8. ” despite your long winded personal attacks, it is quite obvious that you are unwilling to respond to the israeli ruling party’s claim that “god” gave them the west bank and the rest of their superstisous rap attempting to justify their terroristic actions.” and, once again, ad nausem, I responded to your request to say when hamas agreed to the ’67 borders. as I’ve told you about 10 times, he did so on the charlie rose show. but your responsibilty to respond is not based on whether or not I made my bed and cut the lawn. you assert certain things about what is going on in palestine. when faced with concrete, factual evidence to the contrary from the israeli government’s ruling party, that they state thatv they will NEVER give the west bank up, you are left speechless. well, not speechless; thoughtless. but not rantless.
            9. let me repeat: no one cares whether you like to to go camping. or what does or does not bother you about what, about whatever (sorry. your syntex got too confused even by your usual low standards).
            10. pound what? why would I want to pound sand?
            11. tell me when you are going to live up to your commitment to respond to the ruling party of israeli’s claim that they will never give up the west bank because their imaginary friend, “god”, gave it to the israeli jewish people? try to at least pin it down to the month and year.

          • Jack

            1. Reading comprehension trouble?

            2. I repeat my above comment.

            3. Then find me evidence to support your thesis which is unambiguous.

            4. Again, find unambiguous evidence.

            5. That doesn’t mean you weren’t the one who introduced the topic into the conversation. Again, reading comprehension.

            6. This does not seem to be in response to any point I have made.

            7. It’s a common idiom. It means you are accusing someone or something of having some quality while failing to recognize that you yourself possess the same (presumably) undesirable quality or characteristic. It comes from a period where hearths had movable arms for large kettles (for preparing food) and large pot (for preparing water). Both were typically iron and either black in color initially or became black after years of use and soot accumulation. It is not racial and to suggest it would be is a distraction from your lack of proper argumentation and evidence.

            8. And I told you that could be read either way, so I am not accepting it as evidence of your point and I have asked you for an unambiguous statement. The fact that you cannot provide it is sufficient evidence that such a statement is not available. If it were, you would not be hanging on to this one example like it were the only one.

            9. Again, pot, meet kettle. Your syntax and grammar are certainly no better than mine. At least I use proper capitalization.

            10. “Pound sand” is Navy slang for “walk away” or, more curtly, “buzz off.”

            11. As soon as you provide me some unambiguous evidence to support your initial claim. I won’t discuss any other element you have introduced into this conversation until then.

          • 65noname

            1. no but I have trouble comprehending repetitive and sensless babble.
            2. typical of your posts. and not unexpected once you have memorized your lines and the israeli lobby won’t give you new ones.
            3. and then you’ll change an adverb or adjetice in your quesion and start your whole denial of facts and refusal to respond to the position of the charter of the israeli ruling party that its imagfinary friend, “god” gave the west bank to the israish people and the ain’t giving it up. or stopping kicking palestinans off their land and out of their homes.
            6. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt that your nonsensical comment was, once again, the reesult of a “typo”. or your I-pad. or your computer. or your keyboard. its hard to keep track of your excuses for vyour comments, espically since it appears that you don’t care to write in logical patterns.
            7. huh? the only thing “common” in your writing are vthe comments common to everyone who gets vtheir stuff from the lsraeli lobby website.

          • Jack

            1. That explains your writing style.

            2. What is the Israeli lobby. You keep referencing it like it is something that I should know about, but honestly, I have no idea what it is.

            3. So because you already assume you know the follow-up, you presume no need to respond to the question? Who’s being intellectually dishonest now?

            6. Since what you said was not actually in response to anything I said, I still have no idea what your point here is.

            7. You seem to know so much more about “the Israeli lobby,” than I do, it makes me wonder if you’re not a disgruntled former employee.

          • 65noname

            1. think up your own lines.
            2. “honestly”? after all your comments, you’ve suddenly decided to respond “honestly”. well, I guess that is some progress.
            3. experience with your style guided by intellegence provides pretty good hints as your moves. assuming that to be an “honest” question, you are.
            6. I know it’s tough to understand your rationalizations and excjuses for not responding to the charter of the israeli truling party where it claims that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to the israeli jewish people. the “typo”- ipad-keyboard excuse was particularly hard to sort thru.
            7. huh? where do you come up with your psycho-babble?
            8. write when you’re ready to respond to the key issue of the israeli ruling party’s claim that it’s imaginary friend, “god”, gave the west bank to israeli jewish people and it ain’t giving it back.

          • Jack

            1. I did think up my own. That’s why I wrote it.

            2. I’ve been responding honestly the whole time, and in good faith.

            3. So you are admitting to being both intellectually lazy and dishonest?

            6. It still doesn’t make what you have said a valid or intelligible response.

            7. it just came to me :)

            8. I will, just as soon as you provide the unambiguous evidence I have been asking you for during the past three days. I see no reason to let you get out of your presumptuous claims.

          • 65noname

            3. once again, huh?
            6. yes it does. what isn’t valid or intelligible are your increasingly silly reasons for refusing to live up to you previous agreement to respond to the israeli ruling party’s charter that states thats it imaginary friend, “god”, gave the west bank to the israeli jewish people. or to describe where any has ever agreed to the ’67 borders as a settlement of the problem.
            8. no you won’t. t wasn’t the question that you originally asked. this is one of those times where you change the adverbs and then act as if it’s the same, already answered question. we both know that. but I thought that we agreed that you wouldn’t write again until you were ready to answer.

          • Jack

            3. Exactly.

            6. No, it doesn’t.

            8. I will, but you have to satisfactorily demonstrate your proposition first; I have been consistent in my request since my first request. If you don’t like it, too bad.

          • 65noname

            6. yes it does.
            8. no you won’t I did. I told you exactly where and when hamas stated that it would accept the ’67 borders, along with e. jueruselam as the capitol, as settlement of the issue. which was my “proposition first”. you then escalated your question several times and are demanding an answer to something so subjective that you will always be able to that it isn’t a satisfactorry answer. just as the israeli lobby teaches to do.
            you forgot to stick your tongue out when you said “ike it, too bad”
            but once again you are ignoring our agreement that you would write aggain after you think up a response to the issue of the charter of the israeli ruling party claiming that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to israeli jewish people and its promis that it ain’t giving it back

          • Jack

            6. No, it does not.

            8. You did not; you referenced a highly questionable comment, one which did not mention Israel, borders, or peaceful negotiation at all.

            I’m not ignoring anything, I’m sticking to the terms of our agreement.

          • 65noname

            6. yes, it does. it’s actually your lack of intellectual ability that prevents you from understanding what is going on.
            8. actually I did. I referenced a quote where the hamas dude agreed to the “67 borders for a palestinian state. “67 borders” means—–the “67 borders”. of course there is nor reason to mention israel when discussing hamas’s proposed borders. it is the borders for palestine. as the palestinians have stated repeatedly, they could care less what the nut bags that are ruling israel do within israel’s borders. “peaceful negotiations” with a mudererous apartheid regime that no one trusts, not even its parent organization, the amerikan government? all that needs to be done is to withdraw from the west bank, east jeruseluem and gaza. but of course, as your continued silence demonsrates, you already know that the charter of the ruling party in israel claims that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to israeli jewish people and that it ain’t going against “god”.
            yes you are. no you’re not. and it is very noticable that byou can’t actually quote from what I actually said that ledto your oft changed questions. nor do you actually quote from what you ORIGINALLY agreed to. because it would demonstrate your complete lack of intellectual honesty .

          • Jack

            6. That’s your assumption, but not a point of fact. In point of fact, I am willing to be convinced, but you have not answered my objections to your (specious) interpretation other than to say I am wrong.

            8. Again, you have done no such thing. And, again, I’m not ignoring anything, but you are the one moving the goalposts. You said “all the palestinian factions, from the PA to hamas, has agreed to a state in the 67 borders with a capitol in east juerusleum,” (and that’s a direct quote), and I said prove it, and you haven’t. I agreed we would discuss Likud when you proved your assertion about Hamas, but you haven’t. You’ve referred to an interview where Meshaal did not mention “peace,” “borders,” “Israel,” or “negotiation.”

            Because you aren’t supporting your argument and your blaming me for holding you to that is getting old.

          • 65noname

            6. at this point, it is generally accepted as fact that your diminished intellectual abilities are interfering with your understanding of what you read.
            8. of course I’ve proved it. what you really mean is that the lsraeli lobby suggests when faced with a truth that is inconsistent with the lsraeli lobby line, just keep denying that anyone has shown that israel is lying, dissembling, murdering palestinians, stealing land, dispossessing palestinians from their homes, etc. (By the way, the interview mentioned israel ad nasuem. more specifically, the hamas dude said that hamas would accept the’67 borders.) Once again, when has the israeli government EVER agreed to a palestinian state within the ’67 borders.
            9. please feel free to contact me when you are ready to live up to your agreement to respond to the charter of the israeli ruling party’s claim that its imaginary friend, “god” gave the west bank to israeli jewish people. (of course, it is lost on no one that you would be writing until the cows come home if you had a real answer that was consistent with the phoney israeli line that the reason that there isn’t a two state settlement is because palestinians won’t accept a two state solution. don’t worry. we understand that you aren’t responding because you don’t have a response)
            PLEASE WRITE WHEN YOU DECIDE TO LIVE UP TO YOUR COMMITMENTS AS WELL THE COMMITMENTS OF ORDINARY CIVIL INTERCOURSE AND DISCUSSION.

          • Jack

            6. I assume you have empirical data to support that ad hominiem assertion and not simply the fact that you dislike my intransigence in hold you to task to back up what you say.

            8. Just because you have confirmed yourself in your pre-conceived notions after minimal intellectual rigor is in no way a demonstration of the correctness of your initial thesis. To put it in small words, you have done no such thing.

            9. You see, what you don’t seem to get is that I’m going to keep writing you back in this exact manner until A) you give evidence of Hamas’ unambiguous acceptance of the 67 borders and peaceful negotiation, B) you admit the incorrectness of your initial thesis, or C) you stop replying to me, thereby tacitly admitting to your initial incorrectness. I’m not responding to the issues you raise because I said I would not allow you to dictate the terms of the conversation and that I required satisfactory evidence to support your initial thesis. That you refuse to give it to me says more about the fragility of your position than my supposed inability to discuss other issues.

            The fact that you have to resort to the internet version of shouting at me just indicates your level of frustration with your own inability to adequately convince me to buy into your uncritical, woolly-headed thinking.

          • 65noname

            I opned your comment thinking that your pseudo-claims to adhere to what has been asked would mean that you have responded because you were now ready to respond to the israeli ruling party’s claim that its imaginary friend, “god” had given the west bank to isreali jewish people and it wasn’t going to give it back. and would displace and kill as many palestinians as it took to do so.

            much to my surprise, no, you weren’t adhereing to our agreement that “PLEASE WRITE WHEN YOU DECIDE TO LIVE UP TO YOUR COMMITMENTS AS WELL THE COMMITMENTS OF ORDINARY CIVIL INTERCOURSE AND DISCUSSION.”

            but that’s o.k. I didn’t really expect that you would suddenly change spots.

            (“the internet version of shouting at me”?)
            blah blah. over & out

          • Jack

            And I responded to you on the assumption that you would provide actual evidence when asked to support your claim. I’m not surprised that you got defensive when I called you out on it. As I said, you are displacing your frustration at my unwillingness to just bend to the inconsistencies in your argument by saying that I am the one who isn’t adhering to our agreement. As I said, I’m willing to discuss any and all issues you raised as soon as you provide unequivocal evidence that Hamas accepts the 67 borders and a negotiated settlement to the conflict. When you provide that, we can move on, but until then I have no need to change my original assessment that you are wrong in your assertion that Hamas has done all of those things. No amount of trying to make me out to be the bad guy in this is going to get me to change my position.

          • 65noname

            Oh, by the way, speaking of the “tea party” it has the same position as you do on the palestiinans and israel.

  • Bob g

    Tom Ashbrook.. fails the objectivity test. If JEWISH CHILDREN’s BLOOD would be spilling in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and S’derot.. if there was no Iron Dome.. the world would not react, there would be no global outcry. The news media would report it, as it does a car crash. But no one would decry the loss of Jewish life. Because, well.. when the holocaust was taking place the world turned their back. Just fact! When will the Tom Ashbrook’s challenge his erudite Egyptian guest that it is the Hamas and Fatah that sends its OWN CHILDREN to their deaths with suicide vests and bombs. But no.. he won’t. He’s a goy. No real awareness. Sad.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      When did he say any of this? I think you are projecting …

    • brettearle

      I believe that the coverage IS biased towards the Palestinian Cause.

      But I do NOT agree that an increased slaughter of Israelis would go on unaccounted for by Media.

      It might become less emphasized, ultimately, but we would know about it and we would hear about it.

      Such a bleak scenario, that you suggest, would NOT necessarily become an example of the Holocaust syndrome.

      • Zenplatypus

        I agree.

    • 65noname

      actually the amerikan media, and the amerikan goveernment, is totally supportive of israel’s bombardment of gaza with a few comments to the effect that they shouldn’t anymore children than ‘is necessary”.
      you’r dntitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

  • brettearle

    Well-said.

    And because the Information Superhighway provides a trillion opportunities to observe and to opine, the ultimate discourse is fractured, distorted, expedient, and, periodically, pathological.

  • DJJS

    Guest Mona was very biased (and I’m not a big Israel supporter). Here’s a July 22nd video link to US State Dept. trying to defend giving back missiles found in two U.N. agency schools in Gaza to “local police” (Hamas?????).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zj2tueJR6nI

    • hennorama

      DJJS — “trying to defend”?

      Seems more like explaining.

      “We recognize this was not an acceptable outcome,” and “It’s important to remember that UNHRA is a humanitarian relief organization and is not equipped to deal with a situation where you find rockets” doesn’t sound like a defense at all.

  • Michael Gotthelf

    As a long time listener to Tom’s program I was SHOCKED to hear this one sided discussion. I have always thought of Tom as reasoning, reasonable, fair and insightful. Today’s show included only one point of view regarding Gaza. Those who expressed any pro Israel sentiment were immediately cut off.

    It appeared to be a subtle way to promote the Palestinian cause, with no allowance for a reply from anyone with the majority Israeli view. This is not “Shining the light of day”.

    a more balanced view can be found in this Huffington Post article:

    http://huff.to/1rSOeWj

    • 65noname

      well, I read the huffington article by the israeli lobbyist that you referred to. by referring to an article as balanced that justifies the mass slaughter of palestinians, that justifes the occupation, that basically claims that anyone who supports the palestinian aspiration for their country is anti-semitic (claiming that somehow the author “knows” that they aren’t also opposing assad and the usual screed and are only supporting palestine because the israelis are jewish), you are certainly making it clear how “unbalanced” your views are.

      and you must have missed the screeds by ther unoffical israeli lobbyist, roger cohen.

      • Michael Gotthelf

        I can’t help but notice you didn’t respond to the facts in the article.
        I certainly favor the aspirations of the palestinian people. Hamas doesn’t wan’t a state of its own, it wants Israel, all of it.
        Hamas is responsible for the slaughter of innocent palastinians by deliberately putting them in harms way, and making it impossible for Israel to defend itself without harming innocents. The alternative for Israel is to allow the rockets to continue to fall!

        • 65noname

          you’re right I didn’t. mainly because, 1. it was silly, 2. it was totally factless, 3. I was writing about this program and mentioned in passing how unbalanced the article that you referenced is. If I had any interest in bothering to reply to the other dude, I’d do it on the huffington website.
          as for the rest of your screed, well, there isn’t much sense in replying to stuff copied directly from israeli lobby websites.

          • Michael Gotthelf

            Which is a way of dismissing comments (no matter where they come from) without responding to them.
            By the way my comments did not come from any website, but from my understanding of the situation from scouring every credible news source available.

          • 65noname

            emphasis on your own definition of “credible” of course.

            and I’m not going to let you decide what comments that I’m going to respond to at any given moment, but, right, I am dismissive of that propoganda screed.

            but, whatever.

        • Kara Sheehy

          Israell ‘defending itself”?? rubbish – Israel is expanding it’s border, illegally and brutally, as it always has done.

  • pm05

    The “word” is bloodlust ! The Israelis have gone nuts! Murdering children, genocide, trying to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible. Will the Israelis really be able to live with themselves when they realize what they have done. What we all see what they are doing. We should never support the Israelis again – no money, absolutely no weapons. They are not defending themselves, they are murdering Palestinians! Just monsters!

    • Dee

      No one will accept Israel anymore and the
      state will be abandoned…. Israelis will have
      to find another planet to live on.

  • pm05

    Right, so kind of them. They ration electricity, water, food, supplies; restrict movement, ie, imprisonment. Yeah, right, these monsters CUT OFF electricity, water, food, etc…. Yeah, real “human” of them…. geez!

  • 65noname

    actually any people for a peaceful settlement should be uniting with palestinians to “remove” likud. you know the ruling party of israel whose charter states that the wwest bank was given to israeli jewish people by theri imaginary friend, “god” and that “god told the israeli jewish people to continue to build settlements forever even if its necessary to take land from palestinians. you, know, likud, the government that is raining missiles on gaza in order to destroy any palestinian opposition to the israeli occupation of the west bank.

  • 65noname

    actually wrong. israel has constant military censorship of the pres. and the israeli government just prohibited a media ad that showed pictures of dead gazians beucase it was “controversial”.

    • Sophie

      What country shows photos of its dead enemies? Does USA show us Iraq and Afghanistan? Get real.

      • 65noname

        I think that byou ought to read before youn write. I responded to a comment that said that there is no censorship in israel by stating that, actually there is censorship there.
        but, while governments attempt not to show the results of their murderous activities, the media in the US DOES. in israel, the medai is censored.
        ,get real.

  • 65noname

    huh? the israel lobby followers are out in force today.

    • Sophie

      Yep, we are.

  • Sophie

    I agree with Michael that On point is usually, “on point,” but not today. I listened to today’s show for 20 minutes and all I heard was pro Gaza, except for the one reporter who spoke about the Israeli solider shot point blank. He seemed to be “neutral.”

    Why does no one mention the fact that Israel actually WARNS civilians to move out of attack zones, and the fact that HAMAS ADMITS to HIDING with CHILDREN and Civilians in order to get this type of reaction from the public. This is propaganda at its finest. Israel wants a cease fire… you think Jews want more enemies… people hate Jews for no reason anyway… thanks NPR for disappointing me immensely.

    • Kara Sheehy

      Hamas has admitted no such thing. With 1.5 million people in a tiny strip of land, I imagine they cannot get as far away as they would like, considering they know Israels penchant for killing children..

    • Dee

      Why would anyone in their right mind be on the side
      of Zionist land thieves and war mongers in Israel?

      Indeed, by Israeli call to violence against the civilian
      people of Gaza they have essentially invalidates their
      right to remain in Palestine today. ….

      Jewish leaders cannot go on claiming “a right” to
      defend their people when they rob and kill Pale-
      stinians in Palestine to promote themselves. …..

      That kind of double standard doesn’t square in any
      language and it speaks volumes how supporters of
      Israel will now sign on the bottom line to shut down
      their state as no longer representing a moral or just
      cause in the 21st century.

  • 65noname

    huh?

  • 65noname

    you ought to read the likud charter before you claim that “israel believes in a 2 state solution”.

  • 65noname

    “the world” can’t give someone else’s country to anyone.

    • Marty

      Exactly. The UN gave a small segment of Palestine to create the new state of Israel in 1948. Not satisfied with that amount of land, a few days before the “partition” was to occur, the Jewish terrorist group, Irgun, attacked the village of Deir Yassin, killing 200 villagers who were nothing by farmers. http://www.deiryassin.org has that historical story. While Netanyahu has been on a mission for decades to annex the word “terrorist” every time he mentions the Palestinians, he has conveniently forgotten all the world-reccognized Zionist terrorist groups called the Haganah, the Irgun, the Stern Gang. and the Lehi. He is a snake and the world is finding out. http://www.JewishVoiceforPeace.org is truthful about the situation. Also check out http://www.ifAmericansKnew.org. Great sites for truth.

      • 65noname

        thank you

  • Jack

    I agree with you in abstract, but I don’t see it as viable. After all, Israel already provides water treatment, power, food, and medicine, and yet the rockets still come.

  • Sophie

    WELL SAID THANK YOU

  • pm05

    You are wrong! Try again!!

  • Bigtruck

    So speaking out against the Axis in WW2 was unacceptable? There comes a time when a moral person has to pick a side

  • http://belacqui.tumblr.com/ Belacqui

    We are often told in Southern California that we should always wear sunglasses, because too much direct exposure to sunlight gives us cataracts; reality may become more transparent, but perhaps it may also cloud the lens inside our eyes, our ability to perceive and think about the information that are always provided for us.

  • marygrav

    Until the advent of SocialMedia, Americans were only exposed to one side of the Israel-Palestinian story. Now we can get the Palestinian side as well. But no media has mentioned the fact of the Two-State Solution has never been embraced by any Right-wing Israel government. No Prime Minister upon death has allowed the Two-State Solution to come into fuition. I knew that when the US started putting pressure on the Israel to accept a Two-State Solution that the Israel would put pressure on the Palestinaians. It was only a question of time and timing.

    Roger Cohen believes that the loyalty of the US Congress toward Israel action is out of love, but this is one of the biggest mistake of all. They are loyal to maintaining their political positions. This duplicity began as Stephen Kinzer notes in Reset when Abba Eaban in the early 1950s forged the American Zionist Council now calling itself the American Israel Public Affaris committee or AIPAC, which controls the US Congress and litmits the actions of the White House and all candidates for Office. This group along with the American Religious-Right, who want Jerusalem filled with Jews so that the Perusa will occur and Jesus will then kill all the Jews who do not convert. This insane combination will eventurally destroy both the people of Israel and of the United States.
    President Obama needs to stop challenging Putin in Europe and challenge Netanyahu and his Russian Knesset members in the Middle East. Noam Chomsky in Perilous Power writes about the Russian so-called Jews, stating that they are “extremely hawkish and very much opposed to any of the to any social demeocratic policies.”
    Acctually he states, a lot of them aren’t Jews. The Rabbinate, which is very currupt, is willing to accept them as Jews–mostly because they’re blond and blue-eyed. they don’t look like Arabs, they look more like Northern Europeans. So that they stem the Levantization, and ensure that Israel remains white. The typical maodal fo the Sabra, an Isreali Jew born in Israel, sis supposed to be red-haired and strong, rather like a movie hero in the West. The Russian so-called Jews help with that. In any event, they’re a very hawkish element, and they’re politically very significant. (187)
    The so-called Jews are the Russians in Israel pushing Netanyahu to continue his attack. Isreal is OUR problem; Unkraine is the European’s problem. American tax payers paid/pay for the bombs killing Palestinas. America politicians are the designers of the Two-State Solution, which at base in the Ethnic Cleansing going on in Gaza and to some extent in the West Bank. No Israeli Prime Minister present or past has ever allowed the Two State Solution to succed.
    We justify our Ally who works against our interest. Israel was the first to purchase oil form the Iraqi Kurds–yet not a mumbling word is heard from D.C. except for Secretary of States declaration of alligence to Netanyah’s Israel and it Ethnic cleansing.
    To say that the World gave Palestine to Israel is an out-right lie. The former Colonizers now calling themselves The International Community through the Balfure Declaration give the Arab land to the Zionist. Hamas is taking its que from Irgun and the Stern Gang by using Terrorism to establish a State for the Palestinians.
    Israel wants to destroy and disarm Hamas, but who and what will take its place, ISIS?

  • hypocracy1

    #StopGivingIsraelMoneyForBombsAndFixOurBridges

    • Dee

      The US Defense Dept and the US State Dept has no
      right to be allocating our tax dollars and weaponry
      to human rights abusers under Federal law and in-
      ternational law. I am looking into withhold my taxes
      in protest and continue my boycott of Israeli markets
      and goods.

      • Sophie

        Yes, down with the only democracy in the Middle East and up with Hamas oppressing their own people. How idiotic can you be. All killing is bad… stop the rockets and Israel (where women can drive, go to college, divorce, etc.) will stop protecting themselves!

  • Dee

    Israelis should get their walking papers in order. They are going to be the next refugees on the world stage as people move to shut down their immoral and evil state today. (See URL below) .

    The IDF are the Barbarians at the Gate today with their use of military force against the civilian population of Gaza and their
    civil infrastructure. This is the shame and rage of the world to-tday… and Israelis need to pay a heavy price for their criminal
    aggression and barbarism against their defenseless neighbors.

    If its soldiers had a shred of moral fiber they would refuse to
    serve in the Palestinian Territories like this IDF activist.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTAvst5mxW4

    The Seventh Day War, michael Ben Yair , 2003
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-war-s-seventh-day-1.51513

    • FrankensteinDragon

      Well said. Zionist barbarians–neo nazis is what they are. Free Palestine!! Not all jews support israel. Why would any loving self loving jew support a neo nazi zionist state like Israel?! Makes no sense!

  • Floyd Blandston

    Very interesting! Thanks for posting.

  • Stacy

    The call in number is saying it’s currently not active. How do I call in???

  • 65noname

    just curious. why should palestinians have to pay for buildings on land stolen from in order to get their own land back? they didn’t ask for the buildings to be built. and, as far as that goes, the building was virtually all paid for by US billioniares.

  • davecm

    Hamas is liken to Adolf Hitler, Palestinians are liken to the German people who turned a blind eye to the killing of 11 million Jews.
    They are guilty by association.
    They will not be satisfied till all Jews are dead!
    This conflict has been going on for thousands of years.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      this is the stupidest thing i have ever heard! Its exactly==EXACTLY–the other way around. Brainwashed neo-nazi zionist! Free Palestine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Runar Holen

    Disappointed. The topic promised interesting discussions but unfortunately it turned into the usual one-sided propaganda, mostly executed by guest Mona. Tom, you did a bad job letting her rant on. Cohen on the other hand was balanced and interesting to listen to. I was waiting for him to discuss the issue of social media’s influence on the increasing anti-Jewish racism growing in Europe. Unfortunately the ranting (and mostly uninteresting callers) destroyed it all.

  • Runar Holen

    I agree

  • Kara Sheehy

    The reason that the social media aspect is changing the world reaction to heavily favor Palestine is b/c people are able to get their news directly without the filter of biased newspapers and news organizations as was the one of the only ways way we could receive information in years past. Now there is more truth coming out.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      commnity radio. KPFA. KBOO. Flashpoints. Uprising. Project censored. Democracy now. against the grain. up front…..economics with richard wolfe.

      free palestine!!!!!!!!!

    • Sophie

      Right, because Hamas admits to posting photos from Syria and Iraq in 2003 and saying that it’s current. Don’t believe everything you read…come on

      • FrankensteinDragon

        you should listen to your own advice.

  • Kara Sheehy

    Something to work towards, right after the US stops giving billions of dollars to Israel.

  • Pat Flatley

    Caller from South Carolina was cut off because Tom didn’t agree with what he was saying.Then Tom and Mona state that Democracy occurs when the media exposes what is happening. Tom’s sun shines on what he is seeing and how he sees it. He is not an open minded journalist if he doesn’t listens to all sides and opinions.

    • Alex

      Absolutely agree with Pat. I got the impression that Tom Ashbrook has an agenda, and is only willing to listen to people who support it.

  • Alex

    I am appalled by the one-sides anti-Israel coverage by Tom Ashbrook.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      brainashed zionist! Free paelestine from neo-nazi isralites

  • Alex

    Not a single main stream Israeli view. The simple truth is missing in this program: Israel has no interest in Gaza, except one: don’t shoot rockets. Hamas’ interest in their charter: distraction of Israel and killing Jews. No country on Earth would tolerate thousands of rockets (more than 2000 just in the last 20 days) being shut into Israeli cities with the intent of killing civilians. Israel is doing what this country – or any country – would do: fight a vicious suicidal terrorist organization. And when Israel shoots at Hamas’ rocket lunches and terror tunnels, which Hamas puts in homes, schools and hospitals and hides behind civilians, it is indeed a great tragedy that innocent Palestinians are get caught in the cross fire. The difference is that IDF does more than any army in modern history to warn civilians and try to minimize civilian casualties, whereas Hamas is committing a double war crime by targeting to kill Israeli civilians and using Palestinians as human shields. Hamas started this war; rejected 4 ceasefire proposals supported by Abu Mazan, Egypt, the arab league, US and EU. To stop this war, Hamas needs to do one thing: to stop shooting rockets and accept a ceasefire proposal that is on the table.
    Shame on the one-sided NPR coverage!

    • FrankensteinDragon

      brainwashed zionist. Free palestine from neo nazism

      • PatWeening

        You’re braindead and talk in slogans. Thruth is, there’s only one way to end the conflict: take the the colonists, out of the Westbank and take Hamas out of Gaza. Neither will happen, so you can guess the rest.

        • FrankensteinDragon

          i know you are but what am i? whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you! you people are hopeless. brainwashed. you call rational thought and analysis braindead slogans, while inciting violence and genocide. nazis did the same thing. you a evil. i say nothing unless ive researched extensively. i dont take propaganda as fact like the disciples of this show. But you are a waste of time–evil cannot be reasoned with. Ignorance cannot be reasoned with–hopefull someday you will wake up but seeing as though you’ve probably allready reached a ripe old age–you are set in your ignorance and no one can tell you different. thus, violence in our name.

      • Sophie

        So you’re for HAMAS, the TERRORIST organization? What ever you say is not to be taken seriously.

        • FrankensteinDragon

          read my posts. read a book. YEs thats right–hamas is not a terrorist org. you are ignorant and your ignorance is destructive

  • garry

    NPR needs to verify the facts on all sides. We do not need debates over social media’s impact! Give us solid facts. Sort out the claims and separate fact from fiction. Perception and opinions are not the same as facts . Please educate us!

    • FrankensteinDragon

      but that’s not there job–there job is too make sure America stays ignorant and divided!

  • FrankensteinDragon

    Brianwashed Zionist. neo nazi Israleites! Free Palestine NOw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • womaninwashingtonct

    Outraged at Ashbrook! Yet again, Ashbrook proves himself an
    irresponsible apologist whose transparent bias in moderating this overtly one-sided pretend discussion demands that he be removed from NPR.

    I look to NPR for facts, objective and non-emotional
    reporting, most especially when the issues are complicated, nuanced, and at the very least incendiary to begin with. Just two obvious examples of his cutting off virtually every caller who spoke in a measured, informed way: Ashbrook dismissed the male caller from the South whose reminder that understanding the historical context of this conflict he dismissed out of hand. He dismissed the young woman from Jerusalem who spoke intelligently, with respect for the positions of both Israelis and Palestinians, telling listeners that only the horrific pictures of mutilated children were relevant.

    I am beyond disappointed that NPR continues to allow him to be associated with the station. He is a provocateur whose lack of professionalism is an embarrassment to the station and an affront to its listeners and supporters. He should tune in to Colin McEnroe to learn what a truly intelligent, thoughtful, informed journalist sounds like.

  • FrankensteinDragon

    Social media is NPR’s way of not investigating the issue. The role of journalism is to question prevailing opinion, and not make this genocidal massacre and the awaking of truth appear like its hearsay that doesn’t deserve our hearts and minds! You need to call your ignorant callers out! It’s more than young people. Its people of all ages. You talk about this issues as if its random immature unprofessional spouting off opinion and you let your callers infer this–this is not the way it is–the reason this is taking off on social media is because professional journalists on real news programs like Amy Goodman at Democracy NOW and Dennis Bernstein at Flashpoints have been covering it every day all day drumbeat! They are doing something–and they speak to professionals in Gaza everyday–doctors, leaders, people suffering–everyday–they are real journalists who care about democracy and the world. To get on air and talk about this as if its some social media phenomenon and allow callers to infer that its people who need to grow up is just insincere and unprofessional and plain wrong–its evil really. This is genocide–even the UN has said so. At two UN bomb shelters have been attacked. Israel is a criminal terrorist organization. Tom A. so easily dismisses any attempt to point at real journalism and its disgusting that no real journalists covering this issue were mentioned. It is not about social media and to make it so is to make it seem it is not as important because its not coming form so-call “journalists”–tell your listeners where to get news coverage 24/7–Democracy Now with Amy Goodman. KPFA. Flashpoints. Against the Grain. Up Front. Counterpoint. Uprising. Letters and Politics….people on social media are just responding to a real movement–an awakening because of real journalists like Amy Goodman and Dennis Bernstein. Thank You Amy Goodman. You are true humanitarian, a true journalist, and you deserve the highest awards journalism offers! Love you! Thank YOu Dennis Bernstein! You are the peoples champion! A real journalist, not like these phonies. Keep up the good work! Stay strong! Dont let your passion die. Free Palestine!

    • Deborah

      Hammas is the evil terrorists who are destroying Gaza. I know Palestinians who want Hammas removed.

      • FrankensteinDragon

        It is an occupied country, blocked off from medicine, food, aid–and carpet bombed everyday–this is not new–this has been going on for a hundred years. If America was occupied, and bombed daily–would you resent a small group of patriots–soldiers–heroes who stand up for you and fight! Hamas is not a terrorist organization. To say so demonstrates deplorable ignorance–brought to you by the propaganda machine. Those pesky forefathers of America–they are terrorists. America is British territory–always has been. Right? The pesky native americans–they were savages and terrorists–how dare they resist European occupation and genocide–how dare they! Those natives–they must be just terrible terrible people, terrorists who dont appreciate white hospitality, who refuse to lie down and die when somebody better is taking their land. Yeah, those pesky natives. bomb em all!

        • Deborah

          Apparently you did not read the Hammas charter. Hammas wants to commit genocide and wipe out all of the Jews. This is a fact. They do not want peace. They are the cause of the Palestinians suffering.

  • Tim

    Pictures of injured children are very saddening and powerful. Unfortunately, people are not above manipulating others using these images. For instance, pictures of injured children from articles about Syria are being retweeted with hashtags related to Palestine. To my mind, the horror of this Gaza war is enough without the need to mislead others to turn them against it.

    Israels current actions, are, in my opinion, unlikely to help make Israel more secure long term and come at an amazing human cost. At the same time though, I do find it strange how vocal many in the West are in condemning Israel for its lopsided response to Hamas missiles, when the response of virtually every Arab government surrounding Israel to peaceful protest has been as, or more violent, than Israel’s response to the recent rockets and cross border raids by Hamas.

    In Egypt, which also receives large outlays of US military aid, over 1,300 protesters were killed in a single night when the army cleared pro-Morsi camps using live ammunition. In Syria, demonstrations were met with a hail of machine gun fire and early in the war the Assad regime made a point of targeting civilians specifically. In Iraq, which receives more military aid than Israel, the signature sign of its highly sectarian security forces was the mass disappearance of Sunni men, with their bodies being discovered days later with holes drilled in them.

    To a degree Israel should be held to a higher standard than these regimes, as it represents the lone democracy in the region. At the same time it’s worth recognizing that the IDF holds itself to higher standards when fighting foreign forces than the armies of Arab governments when fighting their own civilians.

  • hennorama

    A hopeful sign at this hour.

    Israel, Hamas agree to 72-hour humanitarian cease-fire

    GAZA CITY — Israel and Hamas have agreed to an unconditional, 72-hour humanitarian truce to begin Friday morning, diplomats from the United States and the United Nations announced Thursday, potentially paving the way to bring an end to the 24-day-old conflict.

    In a joint statement, Secretary of State John F. Kerry and the United Nations said both sides are sending delegations to Cairo to attend negotiations aimed at reaching a lasting cease-fire to de-escalate the conflict. Israel will not withdraw its forces from the Gaza Strip, a demand that Hamas, the Islamist militant group that runs the enclave, had previously made in order to start peace talks.

    “This humanitarian ceasefire will commence at 8 am local time on Friday, August 1, 2014. It will last for a period of 72 hours unless extended. During this time the forces on the ground will remain in place,” the statement read.

    “As a response to the United Nations’ request and in consideration of our people’s situation, the Palestinian resistance factions have agreed to a humanitarian and mutual calm for 72 hours, starting from 8 a.m. tomorrow, as long as the other party is committed to it,” Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said. “All the Palestinian factions have a unified attitude toward the issue in this regard.”

    For more, see:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-presses-ahead-with-gaza-offensive-calls-up-16000-more-reservists/2014/07/31/40281e0d-819f-4ebf-9a7c-5f36bda97e36_story.html

  • Deborah

    Your reporting is blatantly biased. Hammas is a terrorist organization that has no respect for life. They kill their own people ruthlessly. Two days ago there was a rally against Hammas and Hammas shot 20 Palestinians. They send children out with guns to shoot soldiers. They hide their missiles in homes. They force Palestinians to stay in their homes by threatening to kill them even though Israelis are giving them warnings to evacuate. They shoot at Israeli soldiers and then escape in UN vans. They have hidden missiles three times in UN buildings. By violating neutral space they put Palestinians at risk. Gabriele Barbati, the Italian journalist could only tell the truth when he left Gaza. The son of Hammas’ founder was interviewed on Fox News and told the truth about Hammas. Instead of building tunnels and an arsenal of weapons, Hammas could have used that money to create a better life for the Palestinians. Let’s have some fair reporting here!

  • gudmk

    Thank you Mona Eltahawy for everything you do. The struggle for justice in Gaza is occurring in social media in the United States. Where only one or two congressmen dare to speak out on behalf of the Palestinians, and all of the media including NPR/PBS is completely biased for Israel. Even on this program there have been other segments which bring on one lone voice for Palestine and three or four Pro-Israel. At least this time they failed even to find an Evangelical caller who didn’t sympathize with Palestinians.

    Netanyahu completely ignores even direct demands from the President of the United States for a cease fire. He knows there is no chance congress or the President will ever cut military aid to Israel. No matter which party is in the majority. He can do whatever he wants. Israel is a rogue state. This has to change, but it won’t for the next several years.

    We (the US) are responsible for this situation. We have to change our minds and listen to voices of justice and peace. We have to become the power for good that we claim to be.

    • Jack

      If the American media were completely biased for Israel, why would Ms. Eltahawy be allowed to come on NPR and spout off half-truths and misinterpretations?

  • Jack

    And people are tweeting photos and news from Syria as if it were Gaza. There’s disinformation and “dirty tricks” on both sides.

  • Jack

    Hamas’ failure to kill Israeli civilians is not from a lack of trying.

  • Jack

    Did you listen to the show? Twitter is dominated by the Palestinians and their partisans, not the Israelis. Or is this just an extension of “the Jews own [...]” argument?

  • Geheran1958

    On today’s “On Point”, one of your guests raised the “disproportionality” of Palestinian casualties using the same raw numbers reported mindlessly by much of the mass media. Unless I missed it, your guest failed to present any illuminating explanations or inciteful perspective other than to infer that the technical superiority of the IDF was responsible for the lopsided collateral damage. Any objective assessment or causal analysis should take into consideration the following: the fiendishly clever tactics employed by Hamas that intentionally and dramatically increase the risk of civilian casualties such as using schools, playgrounds, UN shelters, mosques and hospitals as launch points for firing their rockets and mortars; using the basement of the Shifa Hospital as a Command Center; booby-trapping abandoned private home to explode when IDF soldiers attempt to enter – then present the destroyed house as evidence of IDF targeting civilian domiciles; the notion of “intent” to create massive civilian casualties by indiscriminately firing over 2500 rockets from the start of this conflict aimed at Israeli cities; the fact that Hamas built an extensive network of tunnels to advance their terrorist actions but constructed not a single civilian bomb shelter since the last conflict leaving UN schools as the only alternative for safety. I could go on as the list is long and indicative of Hamas’ determination to live up to their charter and reason for being – the destruction of Israel and the elimination of the Jewish people from the ME.

    • Potter

      You need a long reply which I am not about to give suffice it to say that your long list of alleged launching points is based on what? Whose list? Where is the proof? What about all the homes destroyed that were not booby-trapped? What about the use of ordinance that do not pin-point? And please do compare the 1988 Hamas Charter which some Hamas have said is not relevant to the relevant and present Likud Platform and the many statements of the far right wing in Israel today (they want the land, not the people on it), including Netanyahu’s recent statement that there can never be a real Palestinian state. Israel has the most extremist government ever.

      You might also look at international law:

      http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/9ac284404d38ed2bc1256311002afd89/f08a9bc78ae360b3c12563cd0051dcd4

      http://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/9ac284404d38ed2bc1256311002afd89/50fb5579fb098faac12563cd0051dd7c

      • Geheran1958

        One example, a female reporter from the “Helsinki Despatch” who spent a night at the Shia Hospital reported that after dark
        Hamas fired rockets from the Hospital parking lot.

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