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The Civil Rights Act At 50, And Beyond

Voting rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, social segregation. Fifty years after the signing of the Civil Rights Act.

In this July 2, 1964 file photo, President Lyndon Johnson signs the Civil Rights Act in the East Room of the White House in Washington. Standing from left, are Sen. Everett Dirksen, R-Ill.; Rep. Clarence Brown, R-Ohio; Sen. Hubert Humphrey, D-Minn.; Rep. Charles Halleck, R-Ind.; Rep. William McCullough, R-Ohio; and Rep. Emanuel Celler, D-N.Y. (AP)

In this July 2, 1964 file photo, President Lyndon Johnson signs the Civil Rights Act in the East Room of the White House in Washington. Standing from left, are Sen. Everett Dirksen, R-Ill.; Rep. Clarence Brown, R-Ohio; Sen. Hubert Humphrey, D-Minn.; Rep. Charles Halleck, R-Ind.; Rep. William McCullough, R-Ohio; and Rep. Emanuel Celler, D-N.Y. (AP)

Fifty years ago today, July 2, President Lyndon Baines Johnson – LBJ – signed the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964.  JFK had raised the call for it, then been assassinated.  In the nation’s grief, as Martin Luther King, Jr. led protests across the South, Johnson pushed it through.  After a century of Jim Crow that had cut African-Americans off from hotels, restaurants, stores and much more, the Civil Rights Act said no, and launched an era of reform.  Today, the talk is of voting rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, inequality and, yes, still race.  This hour On Point: Fifty years after the Civil Rights Act, where we stand.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Mark Updegrove, director of the Lyndon Baines Johnson Presidential Library. Author of “Indomitable Will: LBJ In the Presidency.” (@MarkKUpdegrove)

Barbara Arnwine, executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law. (@barbs73)

From Tom’s Reading List

USA Today: Equality still elusive 50 years after Civil Rights Act  – “Fifty years later, on the eve of Monday’s observance of Martin Luther King Jr. Day, the battle to end overt discrimination has been far more successful than the effort to attain economic, educational or social equality. Blacks have made huge strides in high school education but still lag in college graduation rates. Their incomes have risen and poverty rates have declined, but a mammoth wealth gap remains, along with persistently high unemployment rates.”

Huffington Post: The Major Disadvantage Facing Black Students, Even In Kindergarten — “Sixty years after the Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education integrated the nation’s classrooms, black and white students still largely attend different schools, even during their earliest years. A recent analysis from liberal think tank Economic Policy Institute (EPI) outlines the severe segregation that exists among kindergarten classrooms. ”

Los Angeles Times: The cross-racial, cross-party push to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 — “It is a measure of how desperately this country needed the 1964 Civil Rights Act that when John F. Kennedy finally proposed it in June 1963 — and when Lyndon B. Johnson signed it 50 years ago this week — only five of the 535 members of Congress were black. Nearly a century after the end of the Civil War, the promise of emancipation was still unmet and legal equality — in the voting booth, in public accommodations and in employment — remained a dream deferred for millions of black Americans, especially in the South.”

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  • Guest

    Noam Chomsky: Obama ‘Determined To Demolish The Foundations Of Our Civil Liberties’

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/04/chomsky-obama-determined-to-demolish-the-foundations-of-our-civil-liberties/

    Dr. Cornel West: Obama ‘Is a War Criminal’

    https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/05/13-6

    Obama Admin. Admits for First Time It Killed Four U.S. Citizens in Drone Strikes Outside War Zones

    http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/5/22/obama_admin_admits_for_first_time_it_killed_four_us_citizens_in_drone_strikes_outside_war_zones

    Not only has President Obama been a frequent and flagrant violator of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights, but of international law as well. Obama’s illegal drone strikes have killed hundreds of innocent civilians in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. Not to be forgotten, are the four American citizens (including a 16 year old boy), Obama had assassinated.

    Dr. Cornel West is correct, Obama ‘is a war criminal’ and he deserves to be impeached and prosecuted for his crimes.

    • Guest

      Let the impeachment of President Obama begin.

      • Arkuy The Great

        Only his white half, right?

      • anamaria23

        I suspect that every President ages rapidly while in office by having to choose between the lesser of two evils: killing innocents in the pursuit of those set to harm us or risk nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists who would attempt to decimate each President’s charge–the American people. Which is preferable- being tried for war crimes or witnessing another September 11 or worse. That may be what it comes down to.
        Asked once, what kept him up a night, Pres Obama replied “Pakistan”
        I am against droning, but am also in the Oval office.
        In many ways we are still a primitive species having thus far been able to overcome the forces of evil, which is perhaps a mental illness.

  • Human2013

    “today the term “civil rights” is also used to describe the advancement of equality for all people regardless of race, sex, age, disability, national origin, religion, or certain other characteristics.’

    Can someone please tell me how we will maintain any civility in this shameful capitalistic economy?

    Seriously, I’m really looking for a meaningful response.

    • Human2013

      “…It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom—Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.”

      “You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society. ‘

      Karl Marx

      • Human2013

        To the American “professional”

        “The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage laborers.”

      • Coastghost

        “The equality prescribed by the Revolution is simply the weak man’s revenge upon the strong: it’s just what we saw in the past, but in reverse; that everyone should have his turn is only meet. And it shall be turnabout again tomorrow, for nothing in Nature is stable and the governments men direct are bound to prove as changeable and ephemeral as they . . . the people believed what they read and sighed for a revolution. Aye, so it is the poor fools are hoodwinked, so it is the common population is at once made the pretext and the victim of its leaders’ wickedness: always weak and always stupid, sometimes it is made to want a king, sometimes a republic, and the prosperity its agitators offer under the one system or the other is never but the phantom created by their interests or by their passions.”
        Citoyen D. A. F. de Sade

      • Don_B1

        Karl Marx had an ability to diagnose the problems of capitalism but he certainly did not demonstrate any ability to provide a cure for those problems.

        One of the best ways to spread “capitalism” as William appears to want, would be to strengthen unions as they are the only force outside government with enough power to oppose the “titans of industry,” but those titans of industry are hell-bent on demolishing them, as has been shown with the decline in growth of middle- and lower-earners wages for the last three decades.

        This is the growth of income and wealth inequality that, if not corrected will lead to the end of democracy in this and other countries across the world.

        • Human2013

          Thanks for your response, but you speak of unions as if they will make a comeback. They are gone, never to return. At 33, no one I know is a union member nor do they have any idea how they will go about correcting their diminishing wages.

      • harverdphd

        History and 100 million murdered in his wake have already rejected Marx.

        • Bill_GKD

          Shall we also reject Jesus and Jehovah for all that has been done by their fan clubs?

          • harverdphd

            Do as you please.

    • Arkuy The Great

      It looks like the only characteristic missing is ability.

      • Don_B1

        Without equal opportunity, many never get the chance to demonstrate or even develop their abilities.

    • William

      The biggest problem we have now is the unequal distribution of capitalism.

      • Don_B1

        That is what you think is a “meaningful response”?

        At least define what you mean by “distribution of capitalism.”

        And then indicate how it could be “distributed” more equally.

        • William

          Most social problems are related to economics..people that are gainfully employed with economic opportunities have less social problems and needs. Look at how Wall Street has boomed the last six years while main street suffers. The fed’s policy of boosting Wall Street over main street is a failure.

          • Don_B1

            The only entity that the Fed had direct impact on WAS Wall Street, though it might have been able to force the Big Banks to increase their lending which dried up with the fall 2008 financial crisis, and did not return. It is only this year that there is a hint of increased bank lending and somewhat relaxed lending rules that are allowing it.

            Wall Street has boomed because with next to no recovery in wages and therefore slow paydown of the over-leveraged mortgages, there has been little growth in overall demand, and thus the wealthy have been putting their money in the stock market, the most obvious way to get a decent return on the investment.

            The Fed’s policy steps to restore Wall Street have been all-too-successful. There was little policy to reduce unemployment because that is harder and the policy has to be indirect. But that was why the Fed did go for Quantitative Easing, and it did work a lot better than many predicted:

            http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/maybe-qe-was-helping-a-little-more-than-you-thought/

            If Congress had pursued more stimulus, the economy would already be dong much better and the Fed would not have had to pursue QE to the extent it has.

      • TFRX

        Wow. The wormhold is open from Williamworld.

        • William

          You still got cash on your EBT card?

          • TFRX

            As much as Craig T. Nelson, proud “rugged individualist” who said

            I was on foodstamps, on welfare. Did the government ever give me anything? No! I did it all myself

      • TFRX

        Hey, you not banned yet from NPR for raping nuns?

        Boy, making stuff up is fun!

  • HonestDebate1

    The results are in here in NC. Since we passed new voter ID laws, voter turnout is up across the board. Compared to 2010 there was a 13.7% increase among whites and a whopping 29.5% increase among blacks. Obama is suing NC for suppressing the black vote. Commenters here railed about how racist the law was. Can the left be more insulting to blacks? I don’t think so.

    • Human2013

      That was an unintended consequence of the “right” attempting to limit the voting populace.

      Go ahead, keep it up, and our numbers will grow so disproportionate that we will be reduced to a one party system — not that i’m delighted with the Democratic party.

      The recent SCOTUS decisions, the voter ID laws, the gerrymandering, the low-info tactics are all in response to your party’s diminishing electorate. I’m so ready for your descent into the underworld.

      • Arkuy The Great

        It does mean that the left’s objections to the “voter suppression” that voter ID laws would inevitably bring were based on fantasy and not on any analysis of actual facts. It was an unsupportable lie and the results prove it.

        • Red

          Actually, no, it doesn’t mean that at all. It means that people responded to the GOP’s cynical disenfranchisement campaign with a massive get-out-the-vote effort.

          • Arkuy The Great

            And nobody was turned away because they were identified as a minority on their ID cards. QED.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Voter ID laws are *exactly* like literacy tests were in the past.

            We have seen this bunk before, and we will have none of it now.

          • Arkuy The Great

            Right, because there is no way election workers will know the ethnicity of a voter unless they present an ID. How else will they know who needs to be taken out of line for one of them thar literacy tests.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            In person voter fraud is an almost non-existent problem. You can count the number of cases practically on one hand. A solution in search of a problem.

            And *getting* a voter ID is when the suppression happens. We have gone for over 200 years without voter ID’s just fine. The normal ways of checking that people are eligible to vote when they register have worked with very few problems. Any problems there are come from the parties or politicians – not individuals, anyway.

            What about massive voter fraud – does that concern you? Many electronic voting machines have no verification and no way to know if the vote totals are just replaced wholesale by someone with access to the data. What about voter purges based on erroneous reasons? What about ex-felons being banned from voting for life? Combined with the racially biased criminal system, this alone has been used to suppress many thousands of voters.

          • Don_B1

            Maybe not, at least not thousands. But thousands were turned away by long lines of people waiting to vote (e.g., Florida and other states, like Ohio), where the number of voting machines to voters was much lower in districts with a large number of Blacks or poor whites compared with districts with wealthy residents.

          • Human2013

            exactly

          • HonestDebate1

            Are you serious?

          • Don_B1

            There is nothing not serious about Red’s comment: it gets right to the heart of what happened.

            The only thing you seem “serious” about is distracting from the issue under discussion.

    • Bill_GKD

      Sure. They could accuse them of widespread voter fraud, as the GOP alleges occurs. Who’s looking out for the interests of African Americans? Surely their long time best friends, namely white southern conservatives.

      • HonestDebate1

        Do you think blacks are too stupid to vote? What about black Southern Conservatives like Martin Luther King Jr.?

        • J__o__h__n

          Do you think we are stupid enough to believe this rewrite of history?

          • jefe68

            Don’t waste your time. This chap uses this right wing tinged nonsense every time race is the topic. It’s always the same memes.

          • HonestDebate1

            No one has ever told me how affirmative action can work without judging by the color of skin. No one has ever told me why blacks are less capable of obtaining ID without making racist implications like blacks are too poor to have cars.

            That is why you always spout vitriol.

          • jefe68

            Go away troll.

          • HonestDebate1

            Tell me where I’m wrong.

          • Bill_GKD

            Calling MLK Jr. a conservative.

          • HonestDebate1

            He was a conservative, he was even a registered Republican.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            So, you embrace most / all of what Martin Luther King said and stood for?

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t embrace all of what anyone says or stands for but I certainly embrace most of what MLK said and stood for.

          • jefe68

            No he was not a registered Republican nor a Democrat. That’s an out right lie perpetrated by the right. There is no record that he was.

            In Chapter 23 of his autobiography, King writes this about the 1964 Republican National Convention:

            The Republican Party geared its appeal and program to racism, reaction, and extremism. All people of goodwill viewed with alarm and concern the frenzied wedding at the Cow Palace of the KKK with the radical right.

            Hardly the words of endorsement.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — it’s just more equine excrement from the expert, [Debates?NotHe], who makes yet another WAC (WildAss Claim) without any offer of support, or any source.

            This “MLK Jr. was a registered Republican” horseshit has been debunked over and over again, such as here:

            http://www.politifact.com/tennessee/statements/2012/jan/23/charlotte-bergmann/another-republican-claims-martin-luther-king-jr-wa/

            But that doesn’t matter to the equine excrement expert.

          • Don_B1

            Of course, he could have been. A good part of his life spanned the period where most Blacks in the South switched parties from Republican to Democratic. But it more likely applied to his father who you are trying to confuse people with.

            I realize that you are trying to take advantage of the years of rewriting history that Republicans, in pursuit of their “Southern Strategy” that has created a false picture of what the Parties represent. Trying claim a false agenda for Republicans may work for some, but not many.

          • StilllHere

            (crickets)
            These guys have no response. One of them is only here to spread his stench of mendacity.

          • Bill_GKD

            Are you the one here to spread that stench?

          • StilllHere

            No.

          • Bill_GKD

            That’s the smell that I get from your comment there.

          • jefe68

            You sure are buddy. You stink to high hell.
            You’re reeking of it. You’re Pathetic.you’re Such a small little excuse for a man.

          • TFRX
        • Bill_GKD

          The only one I ever read connecting black with stupid around here is you, although with comments like “black Southern Conservatives like Martin Luther King Jr.” that term should really more properly be applied to ignorami such as yourself.

          • jefe68

            HD is trying to frame MLK in the lens of the conservative. Forgetting the good Reverend King Jr was considered a progressive and many of his ideas on a wide swath of issues can back that up.
            He was a speaker at the Progressive National Baptist Convention in 1967.

            The right wing think they can hijack King’s legacy for their own agenda, (which is where this nonsense comes from) which is the height of hubris. This guys mendacious meanderings are not worth the digital bytes they are sent on.

          • Bill_GKD

            Well, if one is ignorant of history, actually or intentionally, as are the ones that one is attempting to persuade, then one might have some success in pushing such a lie.

          • HonestDebate1

            The left has been spitting on the grave of MLK. They refuse to judge people by the content of character, it’s all about the color of skin.

            The fact that he is the only Southern Baptist preacher in the universe the left embraces proves they are just using his legacy for their own sick agenda. He is rolling over in his grave.

          • Bill_GKD

            Yup, rolling over due to the sort of right wing, Southern state’s rights crowd that he fought hard against try to steal his legacy.

          • jefe68

            It’s amazing how misshapen and ill formed you are. One can almost see the spittle from the bile of intolerance and ignorance as you make these pathetic attempts at reframing the history of Civil Rights.
            The idea of social justice is the same today as it was when Dr. King was alive.

            It’s pathetic, there really are no other words to frame the lens you view the world through.

          • StilllHere

            Exactly. Too bad he’s not around to defend himself against this bastardization of his legacy.

          • Bill_GKD

            Yup, it’s a shame what the conservatives supporting states rights and segregation hath wrought.

          • StilllHere

            Institutional segregation doesn’t exist.

          • Bill_GKD

            Ever since enough liberals and moderates could get together enough votes to make it so.

          • StilllHere

            But what those terms mean then and now flip-flopped.

          • Bill_GKD

            No, the parties have largely flip-flopped. Liberals are still liberals and conservatives are still conservatives.

          • TFRX
          • jefe68

            That’s one hell of a clown act he has going there. It’s sad and hilarious at the same time.

          • HonestDebate1

            I deny the charge, I have insisted from my birth that blacks are just as capable as everyone and shouldn’t be judged by the color of their skin. It’s sick and a staple of the left.

          • Bill_GKD

            Oh, did you crawl right out from underneath whatever rock you were born under declaring racial equality? Funny how often you post videos about “stupid” Obama supporters (who all just happen to be black) or have claimed absurd things about race and crime.

          • HonestDebate1

            BS.

            And what is your implication? Is it that judging by the color of skin is still needed because racism still exists? Either you oppose judging people by the color of their skin or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways. Are you with MLK and me or against us?

          • Bill_GKD

            Yes, you are full of it, although I thought that it was usually of the horse variety.

          • HonestDebate1

            They were simple questions.

          • Bill_GKD

            Simple and wrong premises posed by simple minds are still wrong.

          • TFRX
        • TFRX

          It’s about voter suppression, ass.

          Stop being such a knob. Nobody believes you.

        • J__o__h__n

          What kind of conservative sides with striking union sanitation workers?

          • Bill_GKD

            Or accepts awards from Planned Parenthood or advocates for social justice?

          • HonestDebate1

            There’s that social justice claim again. Such BS.

          • Bill_GKD

            Not just a claim. Try reading some history before espousing your biased ideology.

          • HonestDebate1

            As if I haven’t seen that claim and debunked it 1000 times. Social justice as it’s meant today is a construct of the radical left. It did not come from MLK. It’s a hideous concept cloaked in compassion. And the shallow knee-jerkers swallow it whole.

          • Bill_GKD

            Just spouting whatever ridiculous teabagger nonsense you’ve decided are facts, despite evidence to the contrary, isn’t debunking. It’s delusion. Typical for those who choose to live in the tea party universe where up is down.

          • HonestDebate1

            Give me the quotes.

          • Bill_GKD

            http://www.msnbc.com/all/mlks-fight-against-economic-inequality

            Look at his positions here. Really conservative.

          • HonestDebate1

            I do not see the words social justice.

          • Bill_GKD

            That is the sort of literalism that I expect one to stoop to when one has lost the argument yet refuses to yield the point. Your consciously induced ignorance must be a comfort when the facts hurt too much.

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s like being concerned about over-population and becoming a stalwart for the cause. Then someone comes along and uses your words to advocate mass extinction. That’s what you guys are trying to do here.

          • jefe68

            “I think with all of these challenges being met and with all of the work, and determination going on, we will be able to go this additional distance and achieve the ideal, the goal of the new age, the age of social justice.”
            MLK
            http://sojo.net/blogs/2010/08/26/martin-luther-king-jr-was-social-justice-christian

            You were saying?

          • HonestDebate1

            I figured it would be the schoolmarm who came up with it. You guys are funny! The goal of an age of social justice is a beautiful thing. The Socialist agenda of legislating the left-wing extremist’s wet dreams into law is despicable. Obamacare is but one example. You call it social justice. That is not what MLK stood for by any stretch.

          • jefe68

            Your answer is hilarious and really frames how immature you are. Were funny?
            You find this subject funny?

            I’m not sure what it is you hope to gain by posting so much pretentious nonsense. I suppose if your goal is to pile more crap to that heap of indifference and ignorance, then you’re succeeding. All I see here is a bottom feeding at it’s worst.

          • HonestDebate1

            Well then you tell me, do you call raising taxes on the top 1%, social justice? How about lowering standards on college admissions for blacks to make up for our past deeds? Or do you endorse MLK’s emphasis on educational excellence and total rejection of revenge?

            No, you guys are just confused. You see one man’s beautiful dream and sell yourselves on the notion he would agree with your dastardly vision to form a union, funded by taxpayers, and make damn sure the fair police were in full force, Alrighty then.

          • StilllHere

            It would be great if you posted one fact, and fewer insults; but desperate times…

          • Bill_GKD

            Sort of like your comments? Martin Luther King’s pro-social justice positions are there for any to see, just so long as people are willing to see them.

          • StilllHere

            Recognize your own biased ideology.

          • HonestDebate1

            A Southern Baptist Republican Preacher.

          • Bill_GKD

            Republicans were the liberals back then. What kind of conservative tries to undo decades of tradition and tries to destroy one of the cornerstones of post Civil War Southern society?

          • jefe68

            Actually they were not. The GOP in those days was more moderate, think Eisenhower, but they were very conservative. The Southern Democrats were the problem, as they were for the status quo of segregation.

            It should be interesting to note, I doubt Nixon could be nominated to run for the presidency today.

          • Bill_GKD

            By and large perhaps not, given the strain that was emerging in the GOP represented by people like Barry Goldwater, but in a number of ways there were significant parts of the GOP that was more liberal than some elements of the Democratic Party, although both parties were more ideologically diverse.

          • J__o__h__n

            How conservative: “God never intended for one group of people to live in superfluous inordinate wealth, while others live in abject deadening poverty. God intends for all of his children to have the basic necessities of life, and He has left in this universe “enough and to spare” for that purpose. So I call upon you to bridge the gulf between abject poverty and superfluous wealth.”

          • HonestDebate1

            Conservative enough to not be considered liberal.

            And the quote you gave is not in conflict with Conservative dogma. Bush closed that gap with his tax cuts and it has widened dramatically under Obama. The disagreement is how to achieve the desired result.

          • Bill_GKD

            “Bush closed that gap with his tax cuts”. I’m sure that you have some evidence of the tax cuts producing greater equality, as that is quite contrary to the evidence of widening inequality due to Bush’s tax cuts and the Bush Recession.

          • HonestDebate1

            Nope, Bush took 6 million of the poorest of the rolls completely, lowered the bottom rate more than the top rate and caused the top 1% to pay a higher percentage of the bill than at any time in the history of the universe.

          • Bill_GKD

            And median income in real dollars fell under Bush while the incomes at the top boomed. Try crawling out of whatever right wing hole you live in once in a while.

          • StilllHere

            Tax cuts don’t impact pretax income. Who’s stuck in a hole of their own making? You might think about taking a macroeconomics class. I certainly hope you don’t prepare your own taxes.

          • Bill_GKD

            Thanks for the witless and uniformed snark. It must be a great comfort to you when attempting to deny the facts that don’t suit you.

          • StilllHere

            Sorry, before throwing around meaningless insults, maybe you could offer one fact regarding the impact of tax cuts on pretax income. Snark appears to be the only language you speak as obviously economic concepts are beyond your shallow depth.

          • Bill_GKD

            “Asshat alert^^^”. What was that about throwing around meaningless insults, or is it just okay when you do it?

            Considering your statement about government creating the inequality, I can safely ignore your economic opinions.

            Also, you seem to be attacking me for something that I didn’t say. Perhaps your reading abilities are as impared as your economic thinking.

          • StilllHere

            Sorry, you’re confused, and confusing. I thought you were the guy saying the government created inequality. Are you taking that back? Maybe you could take just one position and stick to it.

          • Bill_GKD

            You certainly are very confused. It speaks to some troubling underlying flaws that you must possess.

          • StilllHere

            I’ll accept your concession, and note that you remain fact free.

          • Bill_GKD

            Obviously you can’t read well. Facts and positions have been presented. Choose to ignore them if that helps you to perpetuate the fiction that Dr. King was some sort of conservative Republican, if that is your intent.

          • StilllHere

            You’d have to be able to show tax cuts create inequality. Good luck.

          • Bill_GKD

            When you have top earners garnering million dollar tax cuts versus a few hundred bucks to Joe Schmo, then it is pretty easy to show. So, unless one is totally blind, then one can see it.

            This CRS study talks about it, which isn’t a surprise that the GOP tried to bury it before the 2012 elections:

            http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42729.pdf

          • StilllHere

            The only loser from tax cuts for all is the government who created the inequality in the first place.

          • Bill_GKD

            Of course, because inequality didn’t exist before the government created it. What an amazing insight. The nation as a whole lost due to increased debt that was somehow okay under the GOP.

          • StilllHere

            Wow, really, so desperate you have to create strawmen. Does that make you feel smart? Then you follow it up with some circular argument on debt. Pathetic.

          • Bill_GKD

            So desperate to create strawmen? Such as like comments like “the government who created the inequality in the first place”?

            Interacting with individuals such as yourself certainly makes me feel better about my own intelligence.

          • StilllHere

            Yes, it’s clear your reality is warped.

          • Bill_GKD

            Only from the point of view of one peering through whatever twisted lens you choose to view reality.

          • StilllHere

            The tax cuts promoted equality because they applied to all. It’s sad you have to point that out.

      • Arkuy The Great

        Recall that Bull Connor was a leader in the AL Democrat party until he retired from politics.

        • TFRX

          Submitted without comment.

        • Bill_GKD

          Yup, those were the days when southern states rights conservatives were a big constituency in the Democratic Party. Not too many of them wanted to have much to do with the party of Lincoln until after the Civil Rights Era.

          • Arkuy The Great

            Actually, most of them left the Democrat carried by six. Like Mr. Connor.

          • Bill_GKD

            It took a long time for many of the Dixiecrats to move on out of the Democratic Party for the GOP.

          • Arkuy The Great

            You mean like Bull Connor? He died in office as a Democrat. Al Gore Sr.? Voted out as a Democrat. William Fulbright? Voted out as a Democrat. George Wallace? Remained a prominent Democrat for the rest of his career.

            You sure you want to go on with that “Dixiecrats = GOP” narrative? Cuz it isn’t so truthful.

          • Bill_GKD

            Connor: died in 1973. Wallace: reformed and took into his administration some of those whom he had acted against. Fulbright also changed his tune. Many politicians held on, as incumbents often do, but take a look where the white southern conservative vote headed: towards Republicans in presidential elections first, and eventually towards the GOP, where now there is only one white Democrat from the deep south in the House today. So, if you want to deny that the white, conservative, southern vote once went for Democrats but migrated to the GOP, then you can deny it, but you are denying the facts.

          • J__o__h__n

            Look at all the Southern states that voted for Obama. Obviously racism is over.

          • Don_B1

            Note that less than 10% of the white voters in Alabama voted for President Obama, totally out of whack with the voting patterns in just about any state NOT in the South, but just the worst example.

          • Arkuy The Great

            Because the post CRA Democrats were all about inclusivity and breaking down barriers. Meanwhile the politics of division, coded racism and “dog whistles” were totally the domain of the Republicans. Sure thing!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZ4G251WR4

          • Bill_GKD

            He ran as the candidate for the American Independent Party, which was far right. His reformation and reconciliation with minorities came later. Where are the conservatives today? They used to be largely in the Democratic Party. That is no longer the case.

          • Don_B1

            When you accuse Democrats of “dog-whistling” the closest analogy might be Vladimir Putin accusing the United States of being undemocratic.

            The U.S. is undemocratic in multiple ways, but not nearly as much as the oligarchy that is today’s Russia.

          • Don_B1

            There is a log list of Democratic Party officeholders that switched to the Republican Party during the 1960s and 1970s, right up to the 2010s, that fit what is being talked about here:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_switching_in_the_United_States

            and also a much shorter list of those who switched to the Democratic Party.

          • HonestDebate1

            Wasn’t William Fulbright one of Bill Clinton’s idols?

          • Bill_GKD

            Fulbright changed his tune, unlike bigots like Jesse Helms.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yadda yadda.

          • Bill_GKD

            What a thoughtful response. You must have really excelled in the debate club.

          • jefe68

            Ignore his adolescent tantrums.

          • Bill_GKD

            Ignoring the comments altogether would probably also be good advice.

      • hennorama

        Bill_GKD — you notice that [Debates?NotHe] gives no source for the figures presented.

        One must also consider that the only voting that has occurred was in primary elections, in which voter turnout has a very low base, meaning small changes can translate into large percentage increases.

        Here’s what I mean:

        Turnout as a percentage of registered voters who identify as “Black” went from 11.4% in 2010 to 13.4% in 2014. Those 2.0 percentage points represent an increase of 17.5%, but off that very low 2010 base.

        For “White” registered voters, turnout went from 15.8% to 17.4%. Those 1.6 percentage points are similar to the 2 percentage point increase for “Black” voters, but translate into an increase of only 10.1% on a percentage basis, due to the much higher base figure for 2010.

        Notice too that [Debates?NotHe] gives no actual numerical information. One must consider the adage “When they give you only percentages, ask for the numbers.” (And vice-versa)

        In addition, one must consider the fact that the number of voting-age NC residents who identify as “Black” increased by more than 10 percent during the period in question (142,281), while the number who identify as “White” increased by less than 4% (200,378).

        This means that the demographics of the voting-age population changed during this period. Those who Identify as “Black” made up 19.0% of the electorate, an increase of 1.8 percentage points over 2010 (an increase of 10.5%), white those identifying as “White” decreased by 2.2 percentage points, to 78.1% of the electorate (a decrease of 2.7 %).

        It’s accurate to say that voter turnout was up across the board, but the percentage point increases were (as indicated above), 2.0 for “Black” registered voters, and 1.6 for “White” registered voters.

        Source:
        http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Motion-and-Brief-North-Carolina-Amicus.pdf

        • HonestDebate1

          Where black votes suppressed? What did I get wrong?

          You can spin all you want but the fact is blacks are as smart, capable and patriotic as anyone else despite the left’s insistence they are not.

          • TFRX

            Yes, they were suppressed.

            Take your argument to them and see how far you get. (And I don’t mean the privileged set of Michael Steele, Michael Powell, etc, that seem to be the only ones you care about the opinion of.)

            Keep JAQing it, HD.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — what always cracks me up is [Debates?NotHe] continued bloviatation about “the black vote”, “black votes,” etc., and that he cannot help but hold forth about various things that “blacks are…”

          • HonestDebate1

            29.5%

  • Coastghost
    • Bill_GKD

      And check out the numbers on Obama’s predecessor when he left office versus a few years down the road. It’s easy to dump on a guy when he’s there in the White House, but I expect the next guy, or lady, to get similarly rough treatment, while Obama’s numbers improve, to a certain extent, as we get further from his time in office.

      • Coastghost

        Don’t let your optimism blind you, Bill: Obama stands a better than even chance of out-Cartering Carter, inasmuch as he’s been given two terms to wreak his shambles. (Id est: he’s not through making a mess of things yet: his second term has been an unending calamity thus far, and we yet have two fun years to anticipate.)

        • Bill_GKD

          I’m just looking at how things have often played out. No partisan positions or biases needed. If you’ve got an ax to grind, though, then have at it.

        • Don_B1

          It is certain that the Republicans in Congress will continue to do their best to make the next two years hell for President Obama, even at the cost of the American citizen who will suffer greatly (at least those below the top 20% in income).

          But, just maybe, the unmitigated gall of the Republicans in government is penetrating to the voters in that 80% and they will, against previous performance, come out to vote in the fall elections and turn out many of these obnoxious Republicans who are doing so much economic and environmental damage to the country.

          • Coastghost

            Resistance to Obama’s perceived incompetence seems to extend far beyond corridors of institutional power: I don’t think this new polling simply exhibits partisan disdain for Obama’s poor performance overall. (On this score, Republicans would be remiss to simply let Obama continue pursuing his overreaching and overweening ambitions unopposed.)

          • StilllHere

            If he wasn’t up for it, he shouldn’t have run. His whining is the worst part. No wonder his approval ratings are so bad.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    JFK didn’t do squat for civil rights. All he and his brothers did was liberate the breasts from the brassieres of a lot of women: none of whom were their wives.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      C’mon – really?

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Grandfather’s poker gift – a hanging invitation

    http://www.npr.org/2014/07/02/327245430/a-woman-wrestles-with-a-disturbing-family-memento

    We are barely beyond this, even now. Witness the “sovereign citizen” folks – including the Governor of Maine, and the folks in Nevada.

    • Don_B1

      So unfortunately true!

      The story the author tells is truly heart-rending. It reminds me of the book published a few years ago which had pictures of lynchings, with the crowds watching and laughing and shouting, etc. making a spectacle, which at least today is recognized as a spectacle of themselves, at least in most people’s minds. But apparently not in the minds of some of the posters here, at least by the insensitivity they are demonstrating.

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        They sent postcards with pictures of the lynching victim(s) on them.

        Think about that.

  • Bill_GKD

    I don’t think that one can say that this started with JFK. Perhaps this specific act did, but Eisenhower did much more for civil rights than he has often been credited with, and we should also not forget Truman’s desegregation of the military, which was also very significant for the time.

    • TFRX

      Eisenhower—wasn’t he some sorta commie to the Teabaggers?

      • Bill_GKD

        McCarthy and the Birchers I think made some allegations that he was.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    LBJ was working to improve improving the lot & lives of poor Americans when the Kennedy’s were partying* in pre-war London. And later: setting the lowest standards for Irish-American debauchery.

    * And sharing Marlene Dietrich, with Papa.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I grew up on US Air Force bases in the ’50s & ’60s. There was no discrimination, at least from the dependents’ point of view. We lived (as next door neighbors), worked, played, and went to school with black Americans.

    And nobody thought anything odd about it. Thank you, President Harry S. Truman.

    • GregAbdul

      so you are here to lie and tell us blacks were not persecuted 50 years ago? Truman was cool, but blacks were discriminated against in the military. It’s obvious historical fact.

  • Coastghost

    Why does the Democratic Party bastion that remains the County of Cook, Illinois, remain among the most racially segregated counties in the nation, to this day? How racially segregated does the Boston area (another Democratic/progressive bastion) remain to this day?

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Because there are racists in both major parties.

      What’s your point?

      • Coastghost

        One of my points, I suppose, is that progressive pieties were deployed regionally and thus “unequally” across the country: punishing the Southeast seems to have been an “unwitting” result of the 1960s civil rights era, and northern latitudes were exempted from compliance, by the selfsame progressive pieties, somehow.

        • Bill_GKD

          Care to elaborate on how it was that the “northern latitudes” codified segregation in the manner that the Southeast did? When it comes to purposefully, legally imposed racial discrimination and segregation, the Southeast was “punished” because that was where the discriminatory laws were.

          • Coastghost

            Customs and traditions of racial discrimination and segregation in Chicago and Boston seem every bit as codified, though perhaps conveniently tacit or unwritten.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            So, if there are racists in the Democratic Party, it makes it okay for there to be racists in the Republican Party? Is the GOP just being honest about their racism?

          • Coastghost

            Why do Democrats tolerate such rank hypocrisy in their party? If Democrats would honestly address their Party’s management of racial segregation and discrimination in locales likes Chicago and Boston, I’m sure we’d all learn whatever valuable lessons could be gleaned.

          • Bill_GKD

            Care to provide some examples of how racial segregation and discrimination is tolerated in locales such as Boston or Chicago? Certainly there’s a great wealth of information as to how complaints that arise in such places are roundly ignored or dismissed.

          • Coastghost

            I’d refer your query to Democratic Party officials deftly managing affairs in the County of Cook, Illinois: although I lived there for almost ten years (N and NW suburbs, chiefly, though working half that time in the Loop), I have not lived there in over fifteen years, but I understand Cook County to be just as segregated racially as it ever was while I was there.

          • Bill_GKD

            Oh, so you don’t know and are just pulling something out of your posterior? Got it.

          • Coastghost

            You can get real whenever you want to: the South Side of Chicago has been the South Side of Chicago since LONG BEFORE the days of Jim Croce and “Bad, Bad Leroy Brown”.

          • Bill_GKD

            Still doesn’t address the claims of supposed segregation and discrimination something akin to Jim Crow or supposed local Democratic indifference to such things.

          • Coastghost

            By all means, go live in Cook County for a decade: I learned in my decade there that the Ku Klux Klan was never organizationally superior to the Cook Klux Klan.

          • Bill_GKD

            How many crosses did the Cook Klux Klan burn on people’s lawns and how many did they lynch? Seems like you’re awfully committed to trying to divert attention from the disgusting conduct of the South that occurred for centuries.

          • Coastghost

            You sound no less committed to excusing progressive hypocrisies and Northern tier Democratic Party exercise and oversight of racial segregation and racial discrimination: I suppose that makes you superior all by itself. (We’re only provincial rubes down here, after all.)

          • Bill_GKD

            Please tell me where I have done that, and also please inform me why exactly I should view the problems that have and do exist in places in the North as comparable to a century long campaign of legalized violence and repression against minorities. Oh yeah, the tacit and unwritten rules. Them northerners are to tricky like that.

            No, I would say not spouting the sort of ridiculous flotsam that you do makes me superior, regardless of where I am from, which I have not done. Why does viewing Jim Crow as the abomination that it was make me either a Democrat or a Northerner? Is it just that Southerners and/or conservatives can’t possibly accept such things?

          • Coastghost

            I take a long view: while I’m mindful that the pernicious institution of slavery existed in what became South Carolina for just under two centuries, I’m no less mindful that the pernicious institution of slavery endured across Europe for over three millennia prior to the English introduction of slavery to their American colonies.

          • Bill_GKD

            The sort of race-based, generational slavery that existed in the antebellum South is quite different from that which existed in Europe, and let us not forget that in Western Europe they did away with out “peculiar institution” prior to and with less resistance than that system’s supporters mounted here.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Why do Republicans tolerate open racism? Do they not even see it, or do they think it doesn’t matter?

          • Coastghost

            I’m no Republican, et cetera.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            You were all too willing to explain racism of some Democrats – and you claim it is covert and hidden. If Republicans are open about it, then why do other Republicans tolerate it?

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            I am not a Democrat – you have to ask them.

          • Bill_GKD

            So legally sanctioned. racially based discrimination was a uniquely Southern phenomenon? Thanks for clearing that up. Care to further elaborate upon how civil rights workers were kidnapped, beaten, or murdered or how African American churches were bombed in the North?

          • Coastghost

            Since you ask: just look at the recently overdue adjudication of the Central Park Five case. (New York City, traditionally, is yet another Democratic and progressive bastion, equally adept at progressive pieties and progressive hypocrisies.)

          • J__o__h__n

            I just watched the Ken Burns film on that last night. It was good.

          • Bill_GKD

            Were they civil rights workers? If not, then how does wrongful conviction apply to the questions that I asked.

            How about the case of Julius Ruffin? He was wrongfully convicted of rape by an all white jury in Virginia in 1980. I’m sure that we could find plenty of cases of the wrongful conviction of African American men in the South by largely all white juries if we wanted to take a nice look.

          • Coastghost

            Wow, how many “civil rights workers” have actively campaigned across the southern tier of Cook County? how many have labored even for one summer across greater Boston? how many are active this summer in Detroit, or Philadelphia, or DC?

          • Bill_GKD

            When has there been a need there to combat the sort of violent, racist regime as existed in the Jim Crow South?

          • Coastghost

            Ask the dozens and scores of families of South Side Chicago murder victims of 2013, or 2012, of 2011 or 2010, even 2009 while you’re at it.

          • Bill_GKD

            How is that comparable to the sort of state sanctioned, institutionalized violence against African Americans that existed in the Jim Crow South? Please elaborate.

          • Coastghost

            The Democratic Party machine running Chicago and Cook County lo these many years seems to have no substantive objections to offer against comparatively high South Side Chicago murder rates, so don’t ask me to issue an apology they’re not anxious to offer for themselves.

          • Bill_GKD

            So how is urban violence comparable to a purposefully engaged in, decades long campaign to enforce racially discriminatory laws by any means necessary, up to and including collusion between law enforcement and the KKK?

          • Coastghost

            How is it that progressive Democratic Party bastion County of Cook, Illinois, has yielded a decades-long and enduring pattern of strict racial segregation? (Credible reports have risen from time to time of collusion between the Party power structure and law enforcement to maintain such enduring segregation.)

          • Bill_GKD

            Have some evidence that the party is promoting some sort of legalized segregation? I’m sure that you must have some evidence that the Democrats are undertaking measures that produce segregation.

    • TFRX

      Keep JAQing off, bum.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Ask the Democrat party: they’ve controlled those cities almost forever. Hoober Doober

      • TFRX

        What kind of “old lefty” says “Democrat party”?

        I’ll ask my friend, the “Jew lawyer”.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          Someone from the “Republic Party”?

  • TFRX

    Rep. John Lewis?

    Tom, you’d do us well by playing the recordings of what the good Rep. was called on his way to Congress by some of those patriotic American Tea Partyers as a demonstration of how far some people haven’t yet come.

    http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/20/90774/tea-party-protesters-call-georgias.html

  • William

    It’s hard to stomach the idea of giving LBJ credit for Civil Rights improvements when he blocked it for years.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Go read Caro’s four tomes on LBJ. Then come back to us. Hoober Doober

    • Fredlinskip

      Yet apparently Caro has implied that JFK probably would not have been able to push through Civil Rights Act., as Johnson was able to do.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    LBJ was given a free hand to run the Senate, including pushing a lot of uncomfortable legislation through, by Richard (Dick) Russell. Without the classics scholar (and jurist) from Georgia, there would have been no LBJ.

  • Fredlinskip

    It’s interesting that LBJ, firmly backed segregationist policy so as to further his political ambitions, pretty much until his presidency, when he changed “his stripes” and used the momentum of the Kennedy assassination to push through Civil Rights Act.

    It’s also interesting that at most of the critical points of American History it was all about Conservatism vs Progressivism/liberalism.

    I think today’s proud conservative GOP could use some history lessons- it’s troubling that Conservatives seem to think they can lay claim to all that’s good and “moral” about America, when history shows otherwise.
    Conservatives may all about baseball, apple pie, and waving the flag.

    But they were also all about Slavery, segregation, holding back women’s rights, and fighting on the side of the Brits in the American Revolution.

    Conservatives under Harding, Coolidge and Hoover “ran the country into the ground”, in the same way W did before a similar economic collapse.

    I don’t point this out to perpetuate animosity.
    I point this out because if Cons could find a bit more humility in their hearts, perhaps we can work together for the good of the country instead of experiencing continual government “stagnation damnation” (hey- that rhymes)

    • TFRX

      Today’s Proud Conservative Republicans think racism is over, or need to play to people who think this. Their reelection, their ballot box power, depends on (first) not cogitating history and (second) going out of their way to not merely forget, but scrub it away from their memories.

      • Don_B1

        Actually, today’s Proud Conservative Republicans are just more cynical. Chief Justice John Roberts knows racism is not over, but he wants to play to those who want power and need to appeal to older whites who feel threatened by the rise in the number and power of minorities, never mind that that will result in the loss of all democracy, just as Israel’s continued oppression of Palestinians will result in the loss of any possibility of a Jewish state in the Middle East.

        These predictions may take decades to come to pass, but the foundations are being poured, just as dividing up the Middle East without creating any permanent democracy-supporting institutions a hundred years ago set the foundations for today’s violence between power-seeking factions.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      No, he had changed much earlier, while he was a school teacher.

      • Fredlinskip

        Perhaps in his “heart of hearts”, but he was an all-in segregationist for much of his career. Had he not been, he would not have lasted long as a Southern politician.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Even in the ’60s, there were signs in New York City hotels that stated: No Jews or Dogs. Hard to imagine that in a city largely identified with Jewish artists, performers, & business people — long before the onset of the 20th century.

    I recommend the Gregory Peck movie, Gentleman’s Agreement.

  • MKGS

    Keep hearing the words “All men are created equal,” and no one’s bitten on it yet.

    • jefe68

      When that was written, women were property.

      • MKGS

        Precisely why the Originalists are having a field day.

        • Bill_GKD

          Plus they weren’t really talking about the equality of all men.

          • jefe68

            Only property owners.

          • Bill_GKD

            Well that varied by state, but to a certain extent.

          • jefe68

            I suppose I should have worded that indentured servants.

          • Bill_GKD

            There was a fair amount of variety as to who could vote and who could hold what elected positions in the early days of the nation. At least one state had very different land owning rules for the lower versus the upper house at least up until the Revolution, but I’m not sure about after. At any rate, there was quite a bit of difference. I also think that originally the New Jersey Constitution said that one had to be a property holder to vote, so women started voting until the document was altered to specify male property holders in the early 1800s.

    • Fredlinskip

      Well women were considered…
      Umm women had rights, but…
      Umm… well… umm
      (I don’t want to get myself in trouble) umm

      How about:
      “All folks was equal, but some folks was more equal than other folks” ( paraphrasing Orwell)

  • William

    Solid South? Jimmy Carter won the entire South.

    • Bill_GKD

      And what year was that?

      • William

        Not so Solid South huh?

        • Bill_GKD

          Is that an “I don’t know” or just “I don’t want to answer”?

          • William

            The caller said from 1965 it was the solid south voting for Republicans. Yet, Carter won the South. It’s just another one of those urban myths.

          • Bill_GKD

            I did not hear the caller say that. The South voted solidly for Democrats for over 100 years. How many times have the states of Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and the Carolinas gone for a Democratic Presidential nominee since 1980? A total of 3 times by my count. The region was solidly conservative back in the day, and it is today. Conservatives just line up behind a different party today.

          • Fredlinskip

            An astute point.
            Not that often you see Texas, NY, Mississippi, and Minnesota all go for the same guy.
            Jimmy had some down-home Conservative values in him.
            (Those were the days when helping the poor was considered a Conservative value)
            The electoral map looked a bit different when he ran against Reagan.

  • TFRX

    Jimmy Carter?

    In 1954, after Brown v. Board of Ed, he was invited to join the White Citizens Counci l and Carter said he’d “sooner flush five dollars down the toilet”.

    That’s what sticking your neck out for your fellow man looks like.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=U51zgi7xAgkC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=jimmy+carter+flush+five+dollars+down+toilet&source=bl&ots=JnAXZ08X96&sig=c-qvaKC79DF9pUQVnlXw0Qwbi4Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-he0U8n0FIfh8gHNxoCABw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jimmy%20carter%20flush%20five%20dollars%20down%20toilet&f=false

  • William

    Everyone treated equally? What about Affirmative Action? What about government set aside contracts for minorities or companies owned by women? When will we see equality?

    • TFRX

      Keep JAQing it, William.

      • William

        I thought NPR banned you for your nasty comments about the LGBT community.

        • TFRX

          You think a lot of things.

          Actually, let me edit that:

          Put up or shut up about your random I thought crap.

          • William

            You fail to think.

          • TFRX

            You were given a chance to back up your random slur about me, ass.

            You failed.

            OK, On Point Moderator, time to do your job.

          • William

            You always come off so full of rage, anger. You need to seek counseling.

          • TFRX

            William, I heard you’ve been banned from NPR for Violating parole by moving to within 500 yards of a day care center.

            Boy, making crap up is fun!

        • StilllHere

          You are dealing with someone who is very unstable, tread carefully.

          • TFRX

            You had your chance to put up or shut up, about that slur.

            Didn’t put up. Do us all a favor and shut up.

          • TFRX

            You don’t even have the balls to come up with your own slur. Just piggybacking on his.

            Says a lot about you.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I prefer: “Cloud so swift the rain falling in; gonna see a movie called Gunga Din.” {You ain’t goin’ nowhere}

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Without young black men, the US couldn’t have fielded an army in Vietnam. LBJ totally screwed our country in his myopic egoism, in that regard.

  • William

    We have become a police state with too many people being locked up for petty crimes and corrupt law enforcement agencies.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Thanks to the Obergruppenführers created by George Bush and Barack Obama. Both 21st century “visionaries”. HD

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Despite crime and drug use being pretty much equal, most of the people in prison are brown and black skinned.

      • William

        It’s a issue the elites in society don’t care much about until they or someone they know is arrested.

    • TFRX

      Spoken like a true whitey of privilege, not pretending to know how many people locked up are black and how much of the police state power structure is white.

      • William

        We are living in a post racial society.

        • TFRX

          Wow. It’s nice of NPR to allow you to post after you fellated that man on death row in Texas.

          Boy, isn’t it neato to just slur bigots like WIlliam?

        • StilllHere

          Careful, this guy is unstable.

          • TFRX

            A liberal doesn’t act like Droopy Dog (a.k.a. Alan Colmes) and your Cracker Jack diploma in psychiatry tells you…what?

  • Michiganjf

    White people!

    Where would you be today if your parents or grandparents didn’t have access to good jobs or bank loans?
    What if your parents or grandparents couldn’t have bought themsleves homes at all, or ONLY in run down neighborhoods with stagnant property values?
    If you’re parents or grandparents were denied most ANY opportunity to amass wealth or invest, would you have been able to go to a good school, or more importantly, would you have been able to go to college without financial help from family which lacked even the credit to cosign a student loan?

    WELL,
    that’s the situation for most black and minority Americans, whose parents or grandparents were denied all the advantages YOUR family probably had!!

    That is why THE ROBERTS COURT is SO WRONG about affirmative action!!!
    Minorities have been held down in this country in far too many ways for too long, and we OWE them MORE THAN AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATION, considering they have been denied the access to wealth which is generally a prerequisite for equal access to a decent education!!!

    Once minorities are given the access to a first rate education, FINE!!! Then they can compete in the workplace WITHOUT affirmative action playing a role!
    The education itself, however, is OWED to minorities because of the legacy of wealth denial, which STILL inhibits equal access for many to a good education!!!

    After all, most educated white kids had the advantage of inherited wealth, a legacy denied many minorities!

    • HonestDebate1

      How is judging people by the color of their skin, as affirmative action must, helping the situation?

      • Don_B1

        When (white) people in general do judge people by the color of their skin, how do you change that? In the near 100 years from the end of the Civil War, what change in a large group of people’s judgement on that issue changed? Black soldiers came back from risking their lives to have some freedoms and found bald-faced oppression still the “law of the land.”

        It is only since the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act that some changes have occurred and still today there is pushback from the highest Court in the Land, and people like you defending that pushback.

    • William

      Is it that not all cultures embrace education? You left out Asians. Certainly they suffered discrimination but yet have excelled economically due to hard work and embracing education and hard work.

      • Michiganjf

        Yeah, you’ve got the answer, William!

        Black people just don’t want education!

    • Jeff

      The Roberts court just said that state legislatures can decide their stance on affirmative action…you’re saying you’d rather have unelected judges decide when affirmative action can be removed vs the voice of the people?

  • William

    Young black men have greatly suffered economically due to massive numbers of illegal immigrants.

    • Red

      Spare us your concern trolling.

      • William

        Why do you try and comment on issues that you can’t comprehend?

    • hennorama

      William — Rep. Paul Ryan disagrees with you regarding men “in our inner cities,” at least..

      According to him, there’s “…this tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, and so there is a real culture problem here that has to be dealt with…”

      Rep. Ryan made no mention of “massive numbers of illegal immigrants,” so you might want to discuss the topic with him.

      Source:
      http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/paul-ryan-poverty-comments-were-inarticulate-104637.html

      • William

        Ryan had the courage to speak up which is what AG Holder spoke about a few years ago and yet he was attacked for it. Now he is pandering to the “give them amnesty” crowd like most of the people in DC. Too bad. He held great promise but has now become just another political hack on important issues.

        • hennorama

          William — thank you for your response.

          Sorry that Rep. Ryan has disappointeded you.

          Would you care to back up your initial claim, that “Young black men have greatly suffered economically due to massive numbers of illegal immigrants”?

          While you’re at it, please define:

          “Young black men”
          “great economic suffering”
          “massive numbers”
          “illegal immigrants”

          Thanks in advance.

        • TFRX

          William, you still here?

          Funny, I thought NPR insisted you leave after burning a cross at an A.M.E. church.

          It’s neat to wildly throw shat at idiots.

    • TFRX

      Funny that you’re here. I thought NPR Banned you because you were caught installing a hidden camera in a child’s changing room.

      Boy, it’s cool to speculate!

    • Don_B1

      Actually only because the undocumented are easily taken advantage of and so employers who are willing to act illegally can get away with their unlawfulness when they employ the undocumented (many of which they have actually recruited to come to the U.S., particularly from Mexico).

  • GregAbdul

    The Robert’s court is working to undo the 1964 Civil Rights’ Act every single day they are there and the only hope we have of maintaining Dr. King’s dream is that working people come together across all of our minor differences to put an end to big money controlling our local, state and federal governments.

    • Don_B1

      If a whole lot of Republicans across the country lost their (re)elections this fall, that might dash a bit of the smugness off Chief Justice (and a few other Justices) face.

      Couldn’t happen to more deserving people.

  • M S

    This conversation is getting into ‘all-rhetoric’ territory.

    • StilllHere

      Not a surprise. Math is hard for some and robust data is difficult to come by.

  • TFRX

    Tom, your fascination with trying to make modern right-wingers relevant to this is really strained.

    • jefe68

      You think?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The moral arc of justice bends towards the rich man’s offshore bank account.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    When a thoroughbred mates with Tony the Pony, does evolution move forward and upwards?

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      This is a disturbing comment, in this context. And really odd …

      • Fredlinskip

        Perhaps some hallucinogenics involved?

    • Gato Pardo

      It evolves into a sitcom…

  • Jeff Tripp

    Sweltering in platitudes and jingoism.

  • Citizen James

    Interesting story about Civil Rights and the struggle of blacks. Also interesting on how civil rights can be applied to others: gay, disabled, women. Question: has anyone tried navigating through society and dropping the fact that they are atheist as casually that a Christian drops the fact that he is Baptist? It’s pretty hard. As a businessman with a public face I’ve made a comfortable closet for myself because I know that the disclosure of my religious beliefs matter more (financially) than the public disclosure of the beliefs of the Hobby Lobby board. Somehow though, I still have the same expectations for the US that I hold any other developed nation.

    • amazonjn

      Well said! Once someone tells me they make believe in and worship a being that is burning my atheist husband in hell forever and that I will join him, how can I ignore that they are mean-stupid? Many if not most of the very people we at ACLU helped throughout the 60s and 70s and beyond are the very ones wanting to slam the door on the next group. “I’ve got mine, **** you! (in the name of jesus).

      • Citizen James

        It’s a hard, difficult road to lead ignorant people around you to respect your space. I hope you become part of a Humanist community (if you aren’t already) focused on doing good for the world, with compassion and without embracing a deity.

  • La

    Civil rights to me means all rights for everyone, no matter which right , no matter who. This is the point, it is not just your right or the right you like best. I find it an inexplicable contradiction that those who today oppose gay rights, women rights, immigrant rights, the rights of poor are those most stridently religious among us.

    • Jeff

      That is the irony, today the conversation is all about giving extra benefits to certain groups instead of just treating everyone equally in the eyes of the law.

      • La

        What do you mean by “extra benefits”? Civil rights is about the same benefits for everyone, including marriage, and medical treatments.

        • Bill_GKD

          Don’t you know? Granting equal rights to minorities are special rights.

          • Jeff

            I’m perfectly fine with 100% equality, just don’t separate and split us off into groups…divide and conquer is the liberal playbook.

          • Bill_GKD

            And Affirmative Action has been one attempt to insure that people who have been discriminated against, in things like college admission, do get some sort of more equal shot.

            “divide and conquer is the liberal playbook.” Good one. Like when Rove and the GOP stirred up anti-gay sentiment to turn out voters in 2004? There’s quite a long list of people or groups what get demonized by the right as not being “real” Americans and such.

          • La

            I’m with you on this, but you are preaching to the choir here. Those that want to deny gay marriage, and women choice of medical care vote with you, not me.

          • Jeff

            I’m fine with gay marriage on state by state basis, women should have any choices they want as long they are willing to pay for it themselves. My views just aren’t represented by either party.

          • jefe68

            I assume that men should have to pay for their own vasectomy and Sildenafil as well.

          • Jeff

            Yep, same with any sort of medication/treatment/drug that the employer you choose to work for has a religious issue with. You can still pay for it out of your own pocket if an employer healthcare plan won’t cover it.

          • jefe68

            Glad we cleared that up.
            However… employees are paying a fair amount for that health insurance through the employer. So there is that small oversight.

          • Jeff

            Except employers always determine which healthcare plans are available for employees. Sure the employee can then choose to buy that health insurance or buy on the free market. Personally, I’d like to see individuals get that the same tax-free insurance purchase as the business gets…but liberals stand in the way of that (McCain’s health plan was exactly what I’m asking for).

          • jefe68

            I don’t think so. That’s kind of what the idea was behind the public option.

        • Jeff

          Affirmative action explicitly involves treating people differently based on race. Voter ID treats all people equally but left views it as a threat, the hypocrisy is that they don’t demand we shouldn’t have to show an ID in any other government interaction. Marriage shouldn’t even be done by the government, let each person file their own taxes and remove all marriage benefits/penalties…I could see civil unions for all with death property passing tax free between partners.

          I had to show my ID and wife’s ID when getting a marriage license, where’s the campaign to prevent showing an ID when exercising that right? How about my right to hunt? Why do I have to show an ID to exercise that right? Pure hypocrisy, plain and simple.

          • La

            ah that is what I thought you meant.

            Discriminatory injustices must be corrected. During the time the playing field is being corrected, those on the top of the field, may feel pulled down a little. That’s life.

            Of course we can discuss different ways to level the playing field, but always those who are on the down side will come up and those on the up side may go down, and they won’t go down silently, that is for sure.

      • Gato Pardo

        Your statement is what’s called racism by proxy.

        • Jeff

          Your statement is an example of political correctness gone haywire…asking for 100% equality isn’t a horrible thing and you will not make me or anyone else feel bad for asking for it.

      • S David H de Lorge

        So legacy benefits to the children of white establishment aristocrats should be cut off? Okay. Will you start the campaign for it?

    • William

      What are “immigrant rights?”. Legal immigrants are granted the same rights as legal residents of the USA so where is the issue “immigrant rights” a problem?

      • La

        I was thinking of how legal immigrants of color, natives who were here for generations and even descendants who are US citizens today are not quite “treated” equal near the border. Think Arizona, South Texas?

      • TFRX

        Keep JAQing it, William.

      • TFRX

        Willam, weren’t you banned by NPR for your role in white slavery?

        Boy, making slurs up about people is fun!

  • Coastghost

    Come to think of it: the only charitable and equitable resolution of the present crisis along our border with Mexico, which arguably has resulted from Obama Administration ineptitude in administering existing immigration law, would be to relocate the clamoring multitudes to Democratic strongholds like Chicago and DC, Philadelphia, NYC, and Boston.
    Certainly, only the constituencies of these progressive Democratic strongholds could give these resourceful children from Central America the rousing welcome they deserve and have been led to expect.
    (I wonder just why this bright idea has not to date dawned upon any partisan progressive Democrat. Why for instance isn’t Rep. Luis Gutierrez clamoring for the Cook County Democratic Party to open relocation centers across Cook County? [I thought progressive Democrats WANT to be practicing humanitarians and philanthropists.])

    • Bill_GKD

      Funny, I was thinking that South Carolina would be a great place for every single one of them.

      • Coastghost

        Nay nay! We’ve been told for years just how intolerant we are already, it’s as if we’ve begun to believe the bad things said about us for decades.
        No, I think my generation of this idea in the absence of partisan progressive Democratic advancement of it suggests exactly how right I got it the first time: they all belong in Cook County, Illinois, Westchester County, New York, while Middlesex, Norfolk, and Suffolk Counties, Massachusetts, can compete vociferously for the local honor.

        • Bill_GKD

          But what about the famed southern hospitality? Plenty of people who came to those shores for labor prior to 1808 got a taste of it, plus jobs, accommodations, etc., so why not give it another go-round with this group?

          • Coastghost

            You must keep in mind other considerations: for instance, we don’t want to welcome undocumented aliens to our locale just to have them face the ravages of Atlantic hurricanes. Plus, we still have fire ants to contend with, heat and humidity, et cetera.
            No, trust me: these resourceful children from Central America would be MUCH happier in Cook County, Illinois, Westchester Co, NY, and in Middlesex, Norfolk, and Suffolk Cos., MA, I am certain of it. (Plus, you’d think automatically how this idea HAS to appeal to progressive Democratic sensibilities local to those environs.)

          • Bill_GKD

            You do make a fine case for how South Carolina truly is a hole in the ground not fit for human habitation.

          • Coastghost

            Yet we love it dearly, alligators and all. (Tourists love playing golf here, too.)

          • Bill_GKD

            To each his own.

          • StilllHere

            and tennis and incredible beaches and great seafood … try to spend two weeks a year there at least.

          • jimino

            Yes, the area is blessed with traits many others lack. Then why do the rest of the country’s taxpayers have to subsidize its residents? Is it some sort of affirmative action because the Sandlappers can’t make it on their own?

          • S David H de Lorge

            Interestingly, white European Christian refugees from post WWII Europe often were shipped to places like the Carolinas, where they became cheap labor.

            Those I knew escaped to places like Cleveland for decent factory assembly line jobs, getting pay enough to support a family with basics of shelter, food, and education. And relative freedom from abuse.

            How about that?

          • Bill_GKD

            Sure. I was merely making a veiled reference to unwilling labor of color that was treated to a rather different sort of hospitality.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Yes indeed. I was chiming in to support your point from a different direction!

          • Bill_GKD

            Ok. I wasn’t sure where you were going with that. Cheers.

          • S David H de Lorge

            I’m with you on that, too.

      • Fredlinskip

        Actually SC plays into today’s subject well, because it was there that an incident occurred that spurred Truman into action concerning Civil Rights.
        “2 African American Veterans, one a recipient of the Bronze Star for valor while wounded, were murdered by a white mob on their return to their home in South Carolina from the European theater. When one of the victims wives recognized one of her husband’s assailants, both she and the other victims wives were killed as well.”

        Truman after reading the same report that included this incident- “.. my very stomach turned over when I learned that Negro soldiers, just back from overseas, were being dumped out of Army trucks in Mississippi and beaten. Whatever my inclinations as a native of Missouri might have been, as President I know this is bad. I shall fight to end evil like this.”

        “Truman… signed an Executive Order in 1946 to impanel the President’s Committee on Civil Rights.”
        Truman- “I want our Bill of Rights implemented in fact as well as on paper. There are certain rights under the Constitution of the United States which I think the federal government has a right to protect, and I want to find out just how far we can go.”

        It was Truman who lost most of the Dixiecrats in the South to GOP party, long for the before Johnson came along.

        (* Am quoting from comments of William Hedrick on Diane Rehm show on the same subject “Robert Caro: LBJ and Civil Rights Act of 1964″, a couple of days ago, hoping that he would not disapprove of me doing so)

        • S David H de Lorge

          Isn’t that the case in which, in addition to the usual mutilations, one of the women, pregnant, had her fetus cut out of her belly while hanging from a tree?

          Why is that case of “abortion” never mentioned? Even if it wasn’t this in this case (although I think it is), such things happened repeatedly. You don’t need to do it every day for the terrorism to have its intended effect.

          Why is lynching always pictured as a nice, clean stringing up from a tree branch? It was torture, mutilation, amputated genitals being stuffed in mouths, ears and noses and fingers and toes being taken for souvenirs, and photos of smiling white crowds being taken for mailing around the country on postcards.

          • Coastghost

            From the histories of the 1960s I’ve read, LBJ singlehandedly displaced the practice from the South to the wilds of Vietnam, extrajudicial killings, rapes and mutilations galore, WITH napalm to make it all crispy and flavorful. LBJ’s palmprints are all over our legacy in Vietnam.
            Yet ANOTHER victory for Democratic progressivism, is what I’ve heard.

          • Bill_GKD

            Was that something codified, or was it sort of tacit and unwritten?

          • Coastghost

            LBJ certainly initiated the conflict with dispatch, however he accomplished it.

          • Bill_GKD

            We were certainly involved there, as well as other places, long before LBJ became President. Surely Nixon put a stop to all that. He likely had his own unwritten rules for the troops.

          • Coastghost

            You’re right! Scores of US fatalities in Vietnam occurred during JFK’s Presidency.
            Nixon did have that documented penchant for issuing verbal instructions.

          • S David H de Lorge

            LBJ did all that?

            If you say so.

            Are you working on your next history book?

          • Coastghost

            I am unable to begin my history of the Democratic Party’s repudiation of racial discrimination and racial segregation in its Northern urban strongholds (Cook Co., IL, Middlesex/Norfolk/Suffolk Cos., MA, et cetera) until the events have first begun to unfold.
            (I simply fail to understand why my incessant prodding here is deemed necessary: why are Democrats not spontaneously repudiating their own practice of racial segregation and racial discrimination up North?)

          • Bill_GKD

            Please point out the laws supporting the sort of racial segregation and discrimination that you insist exists.

          • Coastghost

            I have no idea how they get away with it, much less why with their enlightened views they persist with the practice.

          • Bill_GKD

            Please point out how “they” are getting “away with it” and what the “practice” is. I see your allegations, but nothing that constitutes any sort of purposeful or intentional actions that create the situation, unlike Jim Crow segregation.

          • Coastghost

            You asked virtually the same question sixteen hours earlier, my answer remains the same, too: I don’t know. I never bought property in Cook County, so I can’t say what kinds of covenants or “understandings” govern residential property sales across Chicagoland. I’m simply reporting and judging the situation based on “facts-on-the-ground”: the fact on the ground remains, also, that Cook Co., IL, remains one of the most racially segregated counties in the US.
            (I assume you don’t actually disbelieve this. Granted, it’s nothing Chicago cares to advertise too broadly, but it remains the case, just as it remains the case that the Democratic Party manages the entire landscape, in part to this very end. NPR’s WBEZ alludes to the situation in passing in its reportage, and I know that any number of Cook Co. political operatives would be only too glad to confirm what I’m saying, which is common knowledge to all who live there.)

          • S David H de Lorge

            Would you care to enumerate the numbers of Northern Democrats who do repudiate those Northern phenomena, and then contrast them with the number of Northern “Reagan Democrats” who have voted and registered Republican while protesting all attempts to change those conditions in the North?

          • Coastghost

            With such wholesale Democratic hypocrisy on display, I don’t know that I can prudently trust any verbal assurances of their commitments one way or the other.
            The practice of racial segregation persists in Cook County, IL, in ways that would NEVER be accepted were they to occur anywhere south of Springfield.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Okay, whatever you say.

            I’m late for ATC, so I’ll be off now.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Do you intend to ignore the formerly Democratic voters who evolved into a base of the current Republican opposition to attempts to change those conditions?

            Maybe after we’ve got that crowd identified, we can begin distinguishing the present Democrats who are hypocrites from those attempting, however futilely, to get a legislative agenda going which would actually address the problem.

            Then, having provisionally disposed of the partisan mudslinging, however temporarily, we could try to get a handle on the growing body of voters who decline to register in a Party. Perhaps you would venture a couple of stereotypes on the demographics of those who line up on one side or the other, or mushily in the middle and the ranks of the oblivious?

            Oh, wait. I’m sorry. I think I’ve digressed from your underlying point. I think that your point was something like angrily denouncing corrective actions imposed more on the segregated South than on the Segregated North. Why you’ve chosen to so passionately attribute all evil to the “Democrats,” whoever those are imagined to be, is sort of at the side of the issue.

            The fact that Jim Crow ruled the discriminatory South, where segregation was more forcefulladdressed

          • Fredlinskip

            That may be “too much info”.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Thanks for your feedback. Maybe different times and places call for different amounts of info. It’s just that the case astonished me so much that I want everybody to know about it.

            I’ll still welcome your advice about when less (or more) might be better.

        • Coastghost

          Ahhhhh, Truman: the Hero of Hiroshima himself.

          • Bill_GKD

            I prefer the sorts of conservative, anti-Semitic Congressmen who invited openly pro-Nazi speakers to Congress during the war to advocate their position that we join with the Third Reich, or the non-interventionists who just wanted to stay out of all of that because it just wasn’t our problem.

          • Coastghost

            You have decidedly peculiar tastes in this instance, demonstrably.

          • Bill_GKD

            What can I say? I love a freak show. That’s what makes some here so entertaining.

          • Fredlinskip

            And Nagasaki.
            While I would agree this a despicable act, and not Truman’s finest legacy, I suspect that you and I would remain in the vast minority in this view, in eyes of America.
            We would have sustained VERY heavy losses had we had to invade mainland Japan.

          • Coastghost

            We can agree: we’ll never know now.

          • jimino

            So what was the point of your comment, which was apparently sufficiently communicative to allow 2 to agree with it?

          • pete18

            Would it have been a more humane act to have invaded the mainland with ground troops?

          • Fredlinskip

            Undoubtedly.
            The bombs indiscriminately snuffed the lives of vast numbers of innocent civilians.
            It was also the “gift that kept giving” in that individuals suffered and died for decades from various forms of radiation sickness.

          • pete18

            Vast numbers of innocent civilians and US troops would have been killed in an invasion, more than were killed by the bombings. No doubt the bomb was a horrible thing but are you telling me if you were president and you had a chance to spare the lives of thousands of your troops ( the only US troops that were killed by Truman’s decision were the ones eaten by sharks after the USS Indianapolis dropped off the Hiroshima bomb on Tinian) and most likely more civilian lives than were killed by the bombs, you wouldn’t make that choice?

            War is rarely about making choices between good and bad options it’s abut making choices between bad and worse ones.

            I think Truman made the best and most humane choice between two bad and inhumane scenarios.

          • Fredlinskip

            “Vast numbers of innocent civilians and US troops would have been killed in an invasion, more than were killed by the bombings. ”

            Pardon me but it’s simply not feasible that 100′s of thousands of American troops and (somehow) civilians would have been killed in a mainland invasion.
            If I were Prez?
            Part of the problem is that I don’t think we quite understood the potential of devastation of the bomb.
            Perhaps if we dropped the first one or 2 in a more rural environment to show this potential?
            Perhaps one on Hirohito’s Summer home?
            In retrospect, did we really have to take out 2 thriving cities?
            I know you disagree as do most Americans- that’s your right.

          • pete18

            “Pardon me but it’s simply not feasible that 100′s of thousands of American troops and (somehow) civilians would have been killed in a mainland invasion.”

            No pardon me, you should read a little more about this period in history.

            “Because the U.S. military planners assumed “that operations in this area will be opposed not only by the available organized military forces of the Empire, but also by a fanatically hostile population”,[11] high casualties were thought to be inevitable, but nobody knew with certainty how high. Several people made estimates, but they varied widely in numbers, assumptions, and purposes, which included advocating for and against the invasion. Afterwards, they were reused in the debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

            Casualty estimates were based on the experience of the preceding campaigns, drawing different lessons:

            In a letter sent to Gen. Curtis LeMay from Gen. Lauris Norstad, when LeMay assumed command of the B-29 force on Guam, Norstad told LeMay that if an invasion took place, it would cost the US “half a million” dead.[52]

            In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympiccampaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.[53]

            A study done by Adm. Nimitz’s staff in May estimated 49,000 U.S casualties in the first 30 days, including 5,000 at sea.[54] A study done by General MacArthur’s staff in June estimated 23,000 US casualties in the first 30 days and 125,000 after 120 days.[55] When these figures were questioned by General Marshall, MacArthur submitted a revised estimate of 105,000, in part by deducting wounded men able to return to duty.[56]

            In a conference with President Truman on June 18, Marshall, taking the Battle of Luzon as the best model for Olympic, thought the Americans would suffer 31,000 casualties in the first 30 days (and ultimately 20% of Japanese casualties, which implied a total of 70,000 casualties).[57] Adm. Leahy, more impressed by the Battle of Okinawa, thought the American forces would suffer a 35% casualty rate (implying an ultimate toll of 268,000).[58] Admiral King thought that casualties in the first 30 days would fall between Luzon and Okinawa, i.e., between 31,000 and 41,000.[58] Of these estimates, only Nimitz’s included losses of the forces at sea, though kamikazes had inflicted 1.78 fatalities per kamikaze pilot in the Battle of Okinawa,[59]and troop transports off Kyūshū would have been much more exposed.

            A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.[1]

            Outside the government, well-informed civilians were also making guesses. Kyle Palmer, war correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, said half a million to a million Americans would die by the end of the war. Herbert Hoover, in a memorandums submitted to Truman and Stimson, also estimated 500,000 to 1,000,000 fatalities, and those were believed to be conservative estimates; but it is not known if Hoover discussed these specific figures in his meetings with Truman. The chief of the Army Operations division thought them “entirely too high” under “our present plan of campaign.”[60]

            The Battle of Okinawa ran up 72,000 US casualties in 82 days, of whom 12,510 were killed or missing (this is conservative, because it excludes several thousand US soldiers who died after the battle indirectly, from their wounds.) The entire island of Okinawa is 464 sq mi (1,200 km2). If the US casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had been only 5% as high per unit area as it was at Okinawa, the US would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).”

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

          • Fredlinskip

            Well that’s some compelling evidence there.
            Good thing we never had to find out.
            Actually I’m glad you pointed this out to me, because I always believed Truman was a bit under-rated- I just learned that it was he that began to bring about civil rights legislation after his disgust concerning how many black soldiers were beaten and even killed on their return home from WWII in the South (LONG before Kennedy/ Johnson)
            I believe we lost approximately 300G in the whole European and African theaters.
            I guess I tend to always lean on the side of reservation when it comes to War.
            If there are any options that might avoid killing a couple hundred thousand civilians, I would be inclined to consider them.
            Like you said, there were no good options.

          • pete18

            If you are interested in Truman, I highly recommend the book, “Truman” by David McCullough. You will really appreciate how good a President he actually was and get a nice overview
            of the US’s role during World War Two.
            Very well written too, McCullough is great at keeping the drama of a real life narrative in the forefront.

          • Fredlinskip

            Much appreciate that tip.
            Suspect I’ll be getting that one.
            Was much impressed by McCullough’s “John Adams” book

          • pete18

            Yes, I liked the Adam’s book too. In my opinion, “Truman” is his best bio.

      • jimino

        They certainly are in the debt of the rest of the country, so perhaps they would accept this in lieu of paying us back and having the federal teat removed.

        Not to mention their obvious need for mass consciousness raising.

        • Coastghost

          Nothing raises consciousness like example: instead of having preachments hurled our way for our own putative benefit (note to self: “putative” rhymes well with “punitive”), we would be astounded to see our progressive Northern elites put into practice what they’ve been urging upon us for decades.
          We’re still waiting to be led by example.

  • La

    Education, and economic viability also need non-discrimination. I agree with you that when we do have a good educational system (ours doesn’t work if you are poor) and economic viability (many women don’t get paid fairly, blacks are not hired equitably, etc, etc) we’ll all be better off. There remains obstacles to both goals and it is hard to decide how to go about it: focus on removing each obstacle one at a time? Seems not efficient, but try radical equity and those who enjoy some form of privilege will put a huge fight. I think the main issue is one of economic segregation that allows those more fortunate to not have a clue of what happens on the less fortunate areas of your city, county, state, country.
    As for the environment, I’m with you on this too, but it has sadly become another “liberal” idea and GOP-ers won’t touch it. It is shameful. I was hoping that perhaps religious organizations could help here but they are too focused on denying gays and women their rights at the moment.

  • ce373

    It seems that ever since mankind has been on the face of the earth, our history has pretty much been people mistreating people; why is that?

    Will our Creator, the Great Triune God of the Bible be totally justified in Creating a New Heaven and a New Earth (Revelation 21:1) after the Millennial Reign of Christ as Prophesied in the Book of Revelation because God will have given mankind every possible chance of functioning according to His Will and Timing and being sometimes Rewarded with all the possible Blessings and Prosperities because of their Obedience through Faith and remembering that All Biblical Prophecy centers around the Ninth Chapter of Daniel which is the longest fulfilled Prophecy to the very day in the Bible?

    • J__o__h__n

      I get enough of this nonsense on the subway.

    • S David H de Lorge

      No.

    • nj_v2

      Better get God to edit that sentence.

  • margbi

    After reading some of these comments, I’m glad we don’t get to vote on civil rights. The first ten amendments to the Constitution would probably be scrapped.

    • Bill_GKD

      Periodically people have circulated petitions calling upon the government to get rid of supposedly criminal coddling things like protection from self incrimination or some other piece of the Bill of Rights, and they always get people to sign them.

      Certainly gays and lesbians feel that their civil rights are currently subject to a popular vote.

      • Jeff

        Just like rich people and the progressive tax rate, right? Property rights currently subject to a popular vote.

        • Bill_GKD

          I know. It must be so terrible to have to have one’s taxes decided by other people.

          • Jeff

            The majority using its power to impose different rules on a minority; punishing them due to hate being stirred up by a political party. Just put different groups into the “minority” in that sentence, no matter which minority it is that is wrong to use hate to impose different rules on a minority group. For some reason liberals think it’s perfectly fine to put “rich” into that sentence don’t think twice. Property rights are just as important as civil rights…you can’t have one without the other, if you own nothing (including yourself) then what are you protecting?

          • Bill_GKD

            I feel so sad for the rich. Having to pay higher marginal taxes rates. What terrible persecution. I wonder how it is that they endure such terrible sufferings? That really is the same as being told that as a gay or lesbian one doesn’t get the same treatment under the law.

          • Jeff

            Yes, you just justified unequal treatment under the law because of a need basis of the government…the rich have more expendable income and therefore the government has a financial incentive to take more from them because they can more easily afford the higher rates. In the same vein doesn’t the government have an incentive in promoting more births to get more kids growing up to pay taxes and pay for the social programs that depend on increased birthrates? Therefore they could support only hetero marriage due to the incentive to hand out benefits to those couples possibly having kids.

            While I think both logical cases are flawed if you believe one then you must believe the other is also correct…I believe in equality under the law in all cases not picking in choosing and letting government have a preference.

          • Bill_GKD

            Obviously taxing the rich at higher rates is so like the discrimination that various minority groups have faced. It’s just amazing that so few can see it. What a bunch of hogwash.

            Maybe we can get rid of the laws that don’t allow felons to vote or small children to drive cars on the road, as those are also only subjective impositions upon total liberty.

            Comparing progressive taxation to race, sex or gender discrimination is a flawed argument as far as I am concerned, but if you want to fight that one, then go ahead. However, to me, and to most, taxing the poor at the same rate as the wealthy inflicts a vastly disproportionate impact upon the poor, and such a position advocating for “equality” in taxes, such as something like a flat tax, either shafts the poor or lets the rich off easy.

          • jimino

            I agree. Everyone should be taxed at the same rate as someone making $30,000 a year: 15.2% of their entire gross income, then 15% of their taxable income. Who could argue with that identical treatment?

          • jimino

            I forgot, to add that it should be on all types of income, not just wages. Again, identical treatment is the goal.

          • Fredlinskip

            Not so sure about that 15% bit- upper rates were over 70% during Johnson’s day, but this was then loopholed to death-
            But some of these loopholes were there to insure REINVESTMENT IN OUR (as in not China’s) ECONOMY.

          • S David H de Lorge

            The minority, using its privileged influence to impose its rules on the majority, blah blah, blah…

          • Jeff

            Glad your attention span could get past the first sentence…oh, wait, nevermind, another uninformed voter tainting the ballot box…hopefully you forget to vote this November.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Thank you.

            You are to be complimented on the breadth of your perspicuity.

          • Bill_GKD

            I find it rather funny how many libertarians seem so incredibly full of themselves and their positions, despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Yup.

          • Fredlinskip

            I’ve nothing in particular against the wealthy as long as they got it ethically, but this level of income inequality is unsustainable. It’s simply not right that a ceo or exec of company can make 1000x what an employee makes, or that many corps pay no taxes, & it’s not sustainable seeing as consumers drive the economy.

            Right now stock market is soaring out of sight because interest rates are so low that everyone is taking risks.

            Haven’t we seen this movie before?

            In Johnson’s day, the wealthy paid their share, and they STILL remained plenty wealthy.

          • Jeff

            Education reform is the fix, not more taxes that go to more waste in government.

          • S David H de Lorge

            Education, if not supported adequately by government, has never accomplished it.

            Education is indeed the ultimate fix, and deserves preeminence of attention.

            However, many proposed “reforms” have been demonstrated to be inadequate if not destructive, so….

          • Fredlinskip

            Many Americans may be a bit old for that education fix to do them lots of good-
            that doesn’t mean someone should not receive a fair wage.
            Also your education fix implies that what we really need is a World Government to go with our World Economy- one nation for all. If it’s simply about education then everyone plays on the same field and we end up with as many starving people as Bangladesh.
            It may sound selfish, but personally I don’t think that should be our goal.

          • Zack Smith

            Indeed. “The American businessmen, as a class, have demonstrated the greatest productive genius and the most spectacular achievements ever recorded in the economic history of mankind. What reward did they receive from our culture and its intellectuals? The position of a hated, persecuted minority. The position of a scapegoat for the evils of the bureaucrats.”

    • TFRX

      When I hear “referendum on (civil rights issue X)” what it really means is White people voting on something they’ve always had from government, extending to others.

      The idea in itself is doomed to fail.

      • HonestDebate1

        Ultimately, when the ground rules state it’s considered a given that we are all born with certain unalienable rights (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness), under the umbrella all men are created equal, what other outcome can be expected?

    • S David H de Lorge

      There have been surveys in which the rights enumerated in the first ten amendments were presented without mentioning the Constitution. In some populations, the majority of respondents would not support them. They did, of course, “support” the “Constitution.”

      Guess which populations.

  • S David H de Lorge

    Johnson was one of our greatest presidents.

    For all the bad-mouthing he got and gets, his focus was on accomplishing the betterment of America for Americans. He was very successful at laying the groundwork.

    The following two decades were largely devoted to tearing down the deepest achievements of that groundwork. Experimental programs, as planned, were canceled if unsuccessful. But then successful pilot programs were not worked up and implemented. Successful programs were falsely associated with unsuccessful experiments, and the whole lot became Great Society spittle in the mouths of extremist loudmouth angry white men.

    We lost a great deal that most of those alive today are unaware of. Many of today’s problems of poverty would be much better if those programs had run their course.

    He was more focused on domestic affairs than foreign affairs. Even so, he saw the world of the Cold War, he saw the quagmire of Vietnam, and he saw that the US must be engaged. He was doomed to see the quagmire of Vietnam sweep him away, and allow his legacy to be discredited.

    It is a great tragedy.

  • Guest

    LBJ should be remembered for the Gulf of Tonkin (false flag event), which precipitated the Vietnam War, which led to the deaths of over 58,000 US troops.
    Thanks LBJ.

    • S David H de Lorge

      Yes. (Although the troops were already dying.)

      There are many other things for which he should also be remembered. How do you justify wiping them away with this episode?

      Do you wipe away Reagan’s achievements because of the 243 marines killed in Beirut, Lebanon before he cut and ran?

      • nj_v2

        Yep, sure don’t want to forget Iran Contra, union busting, voodoo/tirckle-down economics, ignoring the AIDS issue at the outset, James Watt…It’s quite a legacy.

        • “57 States”

          Benghazi-Gate, NSA spying, illegally freeing Taliban commanders, assassinating American citizens, $7 trillion added to the national deficit, Lois Lerner illegally destroying govt. documents, and supporting al Qaida in Iraq and Syria is so much better, right?

          • StilllHere

            And you’re just getting started…

            Best president ever!

          • Human2013

            OBAMACARE…enough said.

          • HonestDebate1

            Amen.

          • hennorama

            “Guest”, AKA [X Y & Z], FKA [Jay], FKA [(Un)InformedAmerican], etc. — your claims, as always, are nonsense, and completely off-topic.

          • pete18

            You forgot to put nj_v2 on your list. H-m-m-m-m-m.

          • hennorama

            pete18 — “Guest” is not [nj_v2], but is all the other monikers listed. (FKA = Formerly Known As)

            Sorry that you misunderstood.

          • pete18

            I didn’t misunderstand, I know “guest” is not nj-v2, I just wondered why you singled out “guest’s” comments and didn’t include nj-v2s as equally “nonsensical” and “off topic?”

          • hennorama

            pete18 — TYFYR.

            So you understood the point, that my comment was solely to and about “Guest,” yet thought your question was appropriate?

            Quoting the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic:

            [Alrighty then]
            [Your premise is whacked]

          • pete18

            It was about his comments, which were in response to nj’s comments. Seems strange to single them out as being nonsensical if the comments he responded to were made up of the same ingredients.

          • hennorama

            pete18 — TYFYR.

            nj_v2′s comment was not the subject of my comment. KInda simple.

            That you find it strange that my comment was focused is your issue, sir, not mine.

          • Guest

            Obama’s frequent violations of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights are very much on topic and relevant.

            Just because you’re naïve enough to overlook the crimes of your incompetent and inept President, doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

          • StilllHere

            I think he likes you.

          • Guest

            A stalker?!

        • S David H de Lorge

          Nice to hear from you! Thanks for fleshing out the facts. I was restraining myself for tactical purposes.

    • Fredlinskip

      I think he is remembered for that- Perhaps that’s his principle “legacy”.
      But he also had some VERY notable positive achievements.

  • Lisa

    I believe that that the anger that White people have towards
    non-Whites is out of fear that they are becoming the minority in America. I think that they are afraid that their voices are going to be drowned out. I think that it would be helpful if we could talk about this more often. It was discussed some during the last election.

    Tom, Could you do another show about this?

    • The poster formerly known as t

      This sentiment is unlikely to be reflected on NPR, since it is composed of mostly cosmopolitan and affluent whites. Those whites are secure and their position and status. The problem seems to be worse with lower class(not necessarily lower wage ) whites in areas of the U.S. noted for their poor social mobility. In certain areas of the U.S., any help a person of color gets is seen as too much of an upper hand.

      • Human2013

        Please tell me that you have data confirming the affluent nature and color of Tom’s flock.

        • The poster formerly known as t

          Every

          • stuckinthemiddle

            Affluent? The more you make the more they take. In what world does it make sense that if you have five kids and make $18,000 a year that not only don’t you pay taxes you get a big fat check in excess of $10,000?

          • hennorama

            stuckinthemiddle — please demonstrate the validity of your claim that “if you have five kids and make $18,000 a year that not only don’t you pay taxes you get a big fat check in excess of $10,000.”

          • Human2013

            He can’t!

          • hennorama

            Human2013 — thank you for your response.

            That is very likely true, but [stuckinthemiddle] deserves an opportunity to support the claim.

            Ergo, my polite request.

          • Lisa

            All,
            This is what I’m talking about. Our country is so divided right now. I would like to know what is on stuckinthemiddle’s mind. Having a show where people can talk about these things would be helpful.

          • hennorama

            Lisa — thank you for your response.

            Two points:

            1. [stuckinthemiddle]‘s comments above were a bit disjointed and somewhat off-topic, and included a specific claim that has not yet been supported by facts. I’m not sure an entire show that would be of a similar nature is appropriate.

            2. On Point has a “Week in the News” show each Friday that might be a more apt forum.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • Lisa

            Hennorama,
            I will look at the Week in the News show, but I feel that you don’t understand my concern. I do agree that stuckinthemiddle is not the best example.

          • hennorama

            Lisa — thank you for your response.

            You’re in luck, in that the Week in the News show is a day earlier than normal, due to the holiday on Friday.

            Please allow me to present my understanding of your concern:

            1. You think many “White” Americans are afraid of the demographic changes that are occurring, and that their voices are not being heard now, and might not be heard in the future.
            2. You feel that these “White” Americans need to express their concerns, and that other Americans should listen to them and take these concerns into account.
            3. You would like On Point to have an entire show on the above.

            Please correct any misunderstandings in the above.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • Human2013

            I too feel “stuck in the middle” but in no way look to the poor as the problem.

            If only they could turn their attention to the real culprits.

          • hennorama

            Human2013 — TYFYR.

            Feeling “stuck” can definitely be frustrating, and can lead to anger and blaming others.

            Why one might begrudge some income tax benefits for lower-income workers who have children, which [stuckinthemiddle] seems to be doing, is difficult to understand, however.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • Human2013

            “which can be confirmed by seeing what kind of listeners bother participating on the forums and call in.”

            Please tell me that you’re the recipient of some new technology that helps decipher the race of radio callers and posters.

            Now for a riddle:

            I call into the show and frequently post, what “race” am I?

          • The poster formerly known as t

            You’re a Hispanic. I’m not sure why it would make a difference what your “race” is. Whether you are white or not would not disprove my claim about who overwhelmingly make up NPR’s audience.

    • StilllHere

      There’s so much self-segregation I’m not sure the races have much feeling toward one another, at least generally.

    • Human2013

      Lisa,
      Of course their anger is based on fear, it always is. However, “white” people in America are no more entitled to consolation of change, than the slave was to his removal from his homeland.

      Did someone pass the mic to the Native Americans when their land was stolen, did the Chinese request an op-ed when they worked in abhorrent conditions building american railroads.

      I’m not sure if you missed it, but this show is in no way designed to help the oppressors deal with the inevitable.

      NO, NO, NO…like the rest of humanity, “whites” need to deal with change with grace and dignity and not this shameful whining.

    • stuckinthemiddle

      Or, maybe they are tired of watching people with smartphones beg for change at a coffee shop…Or, watching how politicians buy votes by handing out their taxes as handouts. Or, better yet, maybe they don’t like people who are here illegally acting like they own the place. Just a thought.

  • HonestDebate1

    If you didn’t know the color of their skin, could affirmative action possibly work?

  • Guest
  • Fredlinskip

    It’s interesting that LBJ firmly backed segregationist policy so as to further his political ambitions, pretty much until his presidency, when he changed “his stripes” and used the momentum of the Kennedy assassination to push through Civil Rights Act.

    This repeats a small part of a comment made this AM
    (excuse heck out of me).

    • Arkuy The Great

      There is anecdotal evidence that, upon passage of the Great Society, LBJ exclaimed to a roomful of reporters “I’ll have those n!—rs voting Democrat for 200 years!” He did not advocate the CRS nor GS because they were necessarily good policy or “the right thing”. They were all about buying votes. And the last 50 years have proven him correct. He was an awful, unctuous human being, a terrible president but a masterfully practical politician.

      • Fredlinskip

        I’m only about 1/3 through a small book I’m reading about him- Masterful politician yes, but there seems to have been a heart in there somewhere.

  • Guest
    • StilllHere

      Dude, your phones are bugged, your internet posts tracked, your emails read, your tax returns audited, and your movements watched by drones …. that’s the new state of freedom in Obamaland.

      • Guest

        That’s great. I always wanted to live in North Korea!

  • Human2013

    Southern whites have been bamboozled for so long. I consider their story just as tragic. While they descend deeper into poverty, no southern politician will share their story. In an attempt to undermine black mobility, they have undermined their “own people.” …but no one wants to talk about white poverty.

  • stuckinthemiddle

    Why should people who come here illegally have the same right’s as tax paying Americans?

    Why should a child of illegal immigrants automatically become a citizen?

    Poverty? When was the last time kids couldn’t go to school because they had to walk 5 miles to bring back water(dirty) water for their family? That’s the reality for millions of children in 3rd world countries…Should they just hand out Iphones to everyone?

    Isn’t it racist to vote for someone based on their race? So if you voted for Obama because he was black then aren’t you are racist? Oh, and I am white and voted for him because he wasn’t John McCain.

    If your are poor or on drugs and have kids, is it realistic to think your kids will have a great life…..

    Government is not their to protect you from yourself…

    War on drugs..waste of money. How did prohibition turn out…do you expect it to be any different this time.

    Gay marriage? Who cares what you do…your choice. Why do you need a license from the government anyway.

    If you don’t want to wear a seatbelt, isn’t that your choice…You are the one going through the windshield…

    This show was rife with reverse racism and blanket generalizations.

    Does racism still exist? Absolutely–on both sides.

    Hand up not a handout. Four generations on welfare? Free housing? Why go to work at all?

    America: Great place to be rich, great place to be poor. In the middle? well you are paying the bills for everyone.

    • Human2013

      Ummmmm… where do I start?

      First, lets not compare America today to America in the 19th century – it really doesn’t make much good sense.

      Moving on, if you want to move to a system that denies civility to people and children that find themselves in the US undocumented, prepare to have your own civility undermined.

      As far as the middle pulling the slack for the rich and the poor, I do concur. However, move your attention to the plutocrats that continue to work to decrease their input into a civil society and away from the hardworking poor that can’t catch a break.

      • Arkuy The Great

        They did not “find themselves in the US undocumented” (seriously, what kind of convoluted rhetoric is that!?). They intentionally broke our laws to enter our country without leave to do so. They are invaders, pure and simple, and have all the rights afforded invaders; the right to be shown the door out.

        • hennorama

          Arkuy T G — please explain how you impute intent to children, and how children are “invaders.”

          • Arkuy The Great

            Apparently, in your world, children have never been soldiers in war, accomplices to crime or participated in any other badness. Intent does not matter but effect does.

          • hennorama

            Arkuy T G — thank you for your response.

            It’s always interesting and entertaining how some believe they know anything whatsoever about [hennorama]‘s “world.”

            The entertainment being over, back to your comments:

            Are you unable, or simply unwilling, to explain your comment?

            First, you wrote, “They intentionally broke our laws …”

            Then you wrote, “Intent does not matter …”

            Please explain these incongruous comments. The original polite request for explanation from my first reply to you is also hereby renewed.

          • Arkuy The Great

            They did it with deliberation and intent, quite unlike the comment above that seems to suggest they woke up one morning on the wrong side of the border. What that intent was I have no idea nor do I care.

          • hennorama

            Arkuy T G — TYFYR.

            So, children, some whose ages are in single digits, “did it with deliberation and intent…”? How do you know this? What do you base this conclusion on? How can you tell that these youngsters didn’t just do what they were told?

            You might be interested in the following informative article, titled 13 facts that help explain America’s child-migrant crisis:

            http://www.vox.com/2014/6/16/5813406/explain-child-migrant-crisis-central-america-unaccompanied-children-immigrants-daca

            However, based on your final 4 words, I seriously doubt it,

          • Arkuy The Great

            Ahem!

            Children, which includes those up to age 16, indeed can do so with deliberation and intent. You can deny this with as much vigor as possible but the mere fact that juvenile “corrections” exist proves this as accepted fact. This is not to mention the effective use of “child” soldiers by the likes of Joseph Kony in prosecuting their war plans or of “shorties” by neighborhood drug gang kingpins for substance distribution.

            As I posit above It must be wonderful in your fantasy world in which a “child” remains cherubic and innocent until age 21. In the real world this is not the case.

          • hennorama

            Arkuy T G — TYFYR.

            One notices that you haven’t answered a single question posed. One also notices your continued baseless projections about [hennorama]‘s “world.”

            You have simply made claims, as if they were fact, without any support whatsoever.

            “In the real world,” those claims are known as assumptions

          • Arkuy The Great

            “One notices that you haven’t answered a single question posed”

            I did answer them. You just don’t like my answers. That’s not my problem.

            “One also notices your continued baseless projections about [hennorama]‘s “world.””

            Just returning some snarky satire to your contemptuous loaded questioning.

            “You have simply made claims, as if they were fact, without any support whatsoever.”

            Look in the mirror. I assert the exact same thing about your statements here.

          • StilllHere

            You have more patience than most.

          • hennorama

            A T G — TYFYR.

            Sorry that you have assumed any contempt on my part, as it is nonexistent. Please point it out, if you can, as I have been only respectful and polite in my comments.

            Again, you have only made claims without any support. When questioned about how you formed your conclusion, you offer only more assumptions.

            You stated (emphasis added)

            They” (implying “all of them, without exception”)

            intentionally broke our laws”

            They” (same as above)

            “did it with deliberation and intent

            Then you only discussed (emphasis added) the possibilitythat

            “Children, which includes those up to age 16, indeed can do so with deliberation and intent.”

            Your claims were unequivocal, without exception, yet you offer only possibilities and not definitive knowledge as support.

            IOW, your claims remain unsupported. If you believe otherwise, that would not be surprising, based on your comments in this thread.

          • Arkuy The Great

            “you have only made claims without any support. ”

            You mean sort of like what you did by claiming “single digits” and then bringing support from a linked article that did not even make such an assertion, much less bring data.

          • hennorama

            A T G — TYFYR.

            If you’re seriously disputing that some recent child migrants to the US are under age ten, you are so seriously uninformed that any effort I might make will likely be wasted.

            Sorry that you are unable to support your claims, and so stubborn that you cannot simply modify them to conform to reality.

          • Arkuy The Great

            You likewise. A mirror is your friend. ;-)

          • jefe68

            What kind of logic is this?
            You seem to be trying to make villains out children of whom you know nothing about other than they were so desperate that they traveled thousands of miles to come to the US. It sounds more like economic desperation to me.

    • StilllHere

      Very interesting observations, thanks for posting!

  • John Cedar

    I agree with Rand Paul and Ron Paul…before they back tracked their opinions.

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