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Anti-Government Americans And The Threat To Law Enforcement

American law enforcement and the anti-government movement again.  Two policemen dead in Las Vegas.  What’s going on?

Las Vegas Sheriff Doug Gillespie stands by a board with the pictures of suspects Jerad Miller and Amanda Miller during a news conference Monday, June 9, 2014 in Las Vegas. Two police officers were having lunch at a strip mall pizza buffet when the Millers fatally shot them in a point-blank ambush, then fled to a nearby Wal-Mart where they killed a third person and then themselves in an apparent suicide pact, authorities said. (AP)

Las Vegas Sheriff Doug Gillespie stands by a board with the pictures of suspects Jerad Miller and Amanda Miller during a news conference Monday, June 9, 2014 in Las Vegas. Two police officers were having lunch at a strip mall pizza buffet when the Millers fatally shot them in a point-blank ambush, then fled to a nearby Wal-Mart where they killed a third person and then themselves in an apparent suicide pact, authorities said. (AP)

Gunfire in all kinds of places it shouldn’t be in America these days.  In a school in Oregon yesterday, two dead.  In a pizza parlor in Las Vegas Sunday.  Two policemen eating lunch.  Assassinated by a husband-wife anti-government duo who dropped a “Don’t Tread on Me” flag on their bodies, and went on shooting at Wal-Mart.  That killing spree has the particular attention of police and more tracking anti-government groups and attacks around the country.  The rhetoric is white hot.  Adherents are heavily armed.  The attacks are startling.  This hour On Point:  policemen down, and the anti-government movement in America.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Conor Shine, local government reporter for the Las Vegas Sun. (@Conor_Shine)

Robert Futrell, professor and chair of the sociology department and the University of Nevada – Las Vegas.

Detective Kory Flowers, criminal intelligence detective with the Greensboro, N.C. Police Department.

Robert Harris, senior research associate at the Institute for Intergovernmental Research.

From Tom’s Reading List

Las Vegas Sun: How suspected shooters’ fresh start in Las Vegas turned dark – “Police say Miller and her husband went on a deadly shooting spree that left two police officers, a 31-year-old man and the Millers dead. What happened between the Miller’s happy January road trip and Sunday’s shooting will be unraveled by investigators in the coming days and weeks. But interviews with people who knew the couple and the Miller’s online postings reveal a portrait of a troubled man consumed by a deep hatred of the government and the woman who adored him.”

Los Angeles Times: What will protect us from tyrannical neighbors? – “The details out of Las Vegas are chilling: Two extremists declaring a revolution gun down two police officers in cold blood, kill a third person at a nearby Wal-Mart, then kill themselves in an apparent suicide pact during a gun battle with other police officers. An isolated incident? No. Just a few days ago a “sovereign citizen” — part of a movement whose members deny the legitimacy of the government — named Dennis Marx mounted a one-man attack on a Georgia courthouse, wounding a deputy before other officers killed him. His intent, police said, was to take over the Forsyth County Courthouse.”

The New Yorker: Rogue Element — “Since Barack Obama was elected President, militia groups have proliferated in the United States. In 2010, Daryl Johnson, then a senior domestic-terror analyst at the Department of Homeland Security, found that the number had more than tripled in the past three years, from eighty-five to more than three hundred. The times are conducive to extremist anger: there is a black President, a sputtering economy, a disappearing white majority, and recurring talk of stricter gun laws. According to one expert, the militia movement, which was largely middle-aged in the nineteen-nineties, has recently attracted a surge of younger adherents through social-networking sites.”

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  • Human2013

    Thank you, GOP, for giving birth to fanatic, racist, anti-government lunatics. As Eric just learned, your divisive rhetoric will be your demise.

  • HonestDebate1

    There is no anti-government movement.

    • 1Brett1

      The people out at Cliven Bundy’s ranch seem to act as if there is. And, around the country, there are various militia and survivalist groups, even people who have organized themselves into small residential communities that sell houses only to others with the same anti-government views. So, while anti-government movements may be relatively small, they do exist, unless one is in denial of the existence of any right-wing extremism.

      • HonestDebate1

        “right-wing extremism”.

        Nice how you just slipped that in there.

        • 1Brett1

          While extremism isn’t something only specific to those on the right, certainly, the extreme anti-government variety, like the kind seen out at Cliven Bundy’s ranch and the kind that compelled Jared and Amanda Miller to kill in Las Vegas (which is the topic today) is markedly right-wing.

          So far, you’ve contributed two ridiculous comments to today’s topic on this forum. Care to make it three? …How foolish will you sound in your effort to deny the existence of such mindsets?

          • Coastghost

            Brett: I would advise indulging a little more circumspection and a bit more thought before attempting to characterize the political stance of the Millers.
            I urge caution, because I’ve already seen a quick MSM verdict that (but of course) the Millers exemplify “right-wing extremism” by virtue of their wielding and using firearms.
            I disagree, at least tentatively, based entirely on what little I’ve heard. To express violent anti-statist beliefs to the point of murdering law enforcement personnel and then to drape the murdered victims’ bodies in swastikas (as I’ve heard reported) suggests to my mind specific anarchist political beliefs, which do not dependably emanate from “the right”: anarchists of left and right join hands beyond the horizon of mainstream society, their politics are generally so indiscriminate as to permit such intellectual fuzziness.
            The Millers may have even identified themselves as “right-wing extremists” for all I know: but by their actions, their “political statement” is unalloyed anarchism.
            Let us agree that armed anarchists, whether emanating from left or right, pose threats and challenges to all of us who concede the utility of State and Law and then let us consider why anarchists view the State (and Law) as overweening or overbearing: their actual political concerns, short of their practice of political violence, bear consideration on the nature of the polity we consent to with whatever grumbling or disaffection.
            SIMPLY naming the phenomenon “right wing extremism”, I submit, is not necessarily and actually accurate.

          • HonestDebate1

            “SIMPLY naming the phenomenon “right wing extremism”, I submit, is not necessarily and actually accurate.”

            Well said CG, I would only add it is also not an accident, it’s an agenda. Dollars to donuts today’s two topics merge rhetorically before day’s end.

          • northeaster17

            “I would advise indulging a little more circumspection and a bit more thought before attempting to characterize the political stance of the Millers.”
            Hey I have an idea. In your above sentence lets substitute Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl and his parents for the Millers. Just crazy huh?

          • Coastghost

            On Bergdahl, I’m even willing to proceed slowly enough to learn conclusively whether he is in fact a private or a sergeant: the circumstances of his “promotion in absentia” have themselves not been addressed. I’m willing to wait for military justice to adjudicate.

          • northeaster17

            You in particular may be more circumspect but the Rightasphere has not in this case. Even his parents have been threatened. We can only speculate what the weapons of choice were infered in the threats. Hence my use of your sentence.

          • Human2013

            What???

          • 1Brett1

            Well, CG, I concede, that is a fair point, and we still know little about them as people. I had just finished reading an article before posting, however, that interviewed Amanda’s father, and he said he was sick over her marrying Jared and characterized his ideology as “right-wing extremism.” Another point in there that bears noting is that of course her father would characterize her husband as the corrupting one and her as a kind of innocent. It also bears mentioning that she was the one who did all of the killing, both of the police officers as well as the Walmart customer.

            P.S. -How’s your health? Hope all is going well.

          • Coastghost

            Brett: grazie, this stuff seems to be working, three weeks to go.

          • 1Brett1

            Glad to hear it! Continued positive results to you, CG.

          • jefe68

            I thought Jerad Miller shot one of the police officers.

          • 1Brett1

            I just heard that…the article I read early this morning attributed all of the killings to Amanda. Not surprising, as often early reports are conflicting.

          • nj_v2

            Is is possible to write in a more obfuscatory and obtuse manner?

          • Human2013

            I was hoping for a translation.

          • jefe68

            From what I’ve read about Miller, he was all over the map and seemed to be pretty unhinged. However, Miller was obsessed with far-right-wing movements like Patriot Nation. It’s pretty clear what this guys political leanings were.

        • jefe68

          That’s what it is. Pretty simple.
          At least own up for what you believe in.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Look into the “Sovereign Citizen” concept, please. You have no idea what you are talking about. Those tee shirts they were wearing that said things about the County Sheriff come from the ‘sovereign citizen’ concept.

  • 1Brett1

    I’m not sure what can be done. The rhetoric/actions of extremists — like what has been coming from folks out at Clive Bundy’s ranch — should be met with a strong response by law enforcement, something that has seemed lacking during various antics at the ranch. There is no way to truly determine when people will go off the deep end and will do what Jared and Amanda Miller have done, however.

    Interestingly (Amanda Miller), she was the one who did all of the killing. Another thing to note is that of course both police officers were armed. And, the man killed at the Walmart was also armed (concealed weapon) and he confronted Jared Miller, not knowing Amanda was part of the whole thing. She killed the man when he confronted Jared, then she killed her husband and herself; she also earlier had killed both police officers.

    I have had friends who’ve talked about extreme responses (some sort of citizen uprising) to what they thought of as an encroaching government and to what they considered oppressive law enforcement. They never seriously said anything that made me concerned enough to call police and report them, but their views are extreme enough to make me not continue the friendship, and I would not be shocked if they were involved in some future incident. One person in particular I’m thinking about actually got rid of his guns for his own fear that he might react out of anger at some point; which, that shocked me (and made me glad he got rid of his guns!).

    • TFRX

      Were your friends all over this “encroaching gummint” stuff when GWB, Bush the elder, or Reagan were President?

      Cos I remember it only for Clinton and Obama. That’s when the numbers swell for “oh noes, the government!” types.

      • northeaster17

        Like clock work. Seems that the will of the people is a call to arms. Every time it’s someone else.

      • 1Brett1

        I hear what you’re saying, TFRX, but no, the person I’m thinking of is more of an armchair libertarian, replete with a lot of simplistic, junkyard philosophy, etc…We are no longer friends; he’s just too intense, ranting and raving about just about everything.

        He tended to make himself sound like a complete victim of “encroaching gummit,” reverse racism, middle-aged white male persecution, being a persecuted hippy, you name it; he is almost a stereotype of someone kind of all over the map in terms of his ideologies.

        He was a Clinton supporter, yet didn’t support a lot of Clinton’s policies. Likewise with Obama; he voted for the man but expressed excessive disdain for a lot of his policies. I think he voted for Obama because he didn’t like McCain or Romney for various reasons. It was very difficult trying to have a reasonable conversation with the guy. He had an irascible personality and was always very paranoid.

        It’s kind of sad, really, as we had been friends since we were both 15 (now 59). He had gotten busted several times in his thirties for reefer. This kind of sent him over the edge in my opinion. While there’s no doubt in my mind that it should be legalized (at least decriminalized), my “friend” never would admit his role in getting busted, which in each case he definitely did some stupid things fully understanding the consequences (in addition, he resisted arrest in each case, further exacerbating his predicament). He possessed an unfortunate mix of stupidity, rage, paranoia, and misreading situations.

        • TFRX

          A Dale Gribble, but with his stuff more together, and therefore more dangerous, without a Hank Hill type to keep him in “orbit’, so to speak?

  • Pleiades

    This is all you need to see and know about the threat to law enforcement officers in the act of performing their duty across our nation.

    It’s a photo of an individual with a gun pointed at BLM officers at the Cliven Bundy compound.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2014-04-12/Reuters/2014-04-12T222034Z_01_LOA111_RTRIDSP_3_USA-RANCHERS-NEVADA.jpg

    His actions speaks volumes about a variety of gunowner sub-cultures in our nation.

    • OnPointComments

      Do you have a picture of the SWAT teams, vehicles, helicopters, attack dogs, snipers, tasers, and free-speech zone on the government’s side, all to collect a debt that is equal to 0.0000057% of the US debt?

      • MrNutso

        So the fact amount Bundy owed means the law should not be enforced? Even when he continually violated it?

        • OnPointComments

          Can I use SWAT teams, vehicles, helicopters, attack dogs, snipers, and tasers if my tenant decides not to pay the rent? Or do you think it might be overkill?

          • John_in_Amherst

            does your tenant have an armed pack of nuts coming to his defense?

      • Pleiades

        Yes, I do, but all of these assets you write about were needed due to the fact that individuals like the one pictured above created an unsafe environment for law enforcement active in performing its duty.

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      The fact that you called it “the Cliven Bundy compound” instead of “the disputed Cliven Bundy land” discredits everything else you are saying. You politicized your language to make it seem more like Bundy and his cohorts are domestic terrorists.

      Just let your agenda go and state your opinion.

      • Pleiades

        I am only referring to Mr. Bundy’s property with the same language as the individuals who were (are there) assisting Mr. Bundy in flaunting his contractual obligation. There is no “disputed Cliven Bundy land”. There is the federal land his cattle have grazed on over the past twnety years, but there is no disputing that.

  • liminalx

    When are these people (including the “open carry advocates”) going to be called what they are…? Terrorist! and Bundy Ranch, a terrorists’ training camp. To continue to use the euphemism “militia movement” is to minimize the serious threat these home grown, white, mostly male terrorist are to the “domestic Tranquility” while claiming as their sole province, “the Blessings of Liberty… and Posterity.”

    • James

      I’d hate to inject facts into your rant, but these guys were kicked OFF the Bundy Ranch

      • HonestDebate1

        That will never do. The narrative is anyone who thought Cliven Bundy had a legitimate beef (pun intended) is a murderous right-wing extremist. These right-wingers (AKA the Tea Party) are everywhere, it’s movement. Anyone who has any problem with any penny spent by government should be viewed as a nut case extremist capable of murder.

        Establishing that narrative is the single purpose of today’s topic. The plebes are falling right in line.

        • jimino

          Even for you, a deceitful master of creating straw men to knock down, without any connection to anyone’s position, this one’s a doozy:

          “Anyone who has any problem with any penny spent by government should be viewed as a nut case extremist capable of murder.”

          Of course without dishonestly controlling the parameters of the debate, someone like yourself would have nothing rational to say.

          Or maybe you honestly don’t see any difference between a typical self-proclaimed fiscal conservative and someone who would take up arms against our government when it tries to enforce the law. We used to call the latter a traitor, but they’re obviously patriots in your eyes.

        • J__o__h__n

          Bundy’s beef isn’t legitimate. He fed it on public lands and then refused to pay for it.

      • liminalx

        So you and the “bundy militia” claim after the fact. Typical behavior of cowards to disavow members of their group. And that does not negate the fact that the “militia movement” are terrorist by another name.

        • James

          I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you wanted a press release detailing the internal politics of the Bundy Ranch

      • John_in_Amherst

        is that why Bundy was shown riding his horse around waving a flag with these guys, while the ‘womenfolk” were being organized for use as human shields?

      • jefe68

        That was allegedly due to Bundy finding out that Jerad had a felony conviction.

  • Jeff

    At least acknowledge that a conceal and carry permit holder was attempting to stop these two, he’s just as much of a hero as the police officers who died…giving his life to protect others. Although I expect that fact to be hidden by the traditional media sources…also, it was shortly after that confrontation (by the C&C permit holder) that these two attackers took their own lives. These people who go on shooting sprees are cowards and tend to give up when confronted with equal force.

    • Human2013

      But it was too late….it’s always too late

      • Jeff

        Actually it was right on time, the police who showed up 20 minutes later were “too late”. No other people died after the C&C permit holder confronted them…I would say he was right on time.

        • jefe68

          I think you might have the story wrong.

          At 11:30 a.m., nearly seven hours and four miles later, Jared Miller walked into CiCi’s Pizza on Nellis Boulevard at Stewart Avenue.

          He quickly walked out. He returned moments later with Amanda Miller close behind.

          Jerad Miller walked up to Officer Igor Soldo, raised a handgun and shot him in the back of the head execution style, killing him.

          Jerad and Amanda Miller then turned and fired on Officer Alyn Beck. Beck tried to return fire but suffered multiple gunshot wounds.

          Just as Jerad Miller told Fielder, the couple dropped a swastika on Beck. He also left a “Don’t Tread on Me” Revolutionary War-era flag on Beck’s body.

          The Millers escaped to a Wal-Mart across the street. Officers surrounded the store. Shoppers ran out.

          The commotion caught the attention of Joseph Robert Wilcox, who was standing in a nearby checkout line. Wilcox, carrying a concealed weapon, a approached Jerad Miller. He didn’t know Jerad Miller wasn’t alone. As Wilcox passed by, Amanda Miller shot him in the chest, killing him.

          http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/jun/10/how-cop-killing-couples-fresh-start-las-vegas-turn/

        • 1Brett1

          “No other people died after the C&C permit holder confronted them…I would say he was right on time.”

          Amanda shot and killed the Walmart customer (the C&C permit holder) because he confronted her husband. No other people died after that because Amanda then shot and killed her husband, and then she turned the gun on herself. The police officers had already been killed (they were killed earlier).

          It’s reasonable to say that the “C&C permit holder” had no bearing on stopping anybody. Your implication is simply off the mark; the C&C permit holder was not “right on time.” If anything, to say he was in the wrong place at the wrong time would be much more accurate.

          • Jeff

            What about the pepper spray security guard who’s a hero today for stopping a shooter? Same scenario…in one case the person didn’t realize there were 2 shooters (can you blame him, it’s rare that women participate in these incidents) and in the other there was only 1 shooter and he was stopped.

            I think all schools should have a can of pepper spray available to the administration or security.

          • MrNutso

            I forgot about that part.

      • DL412

        You point out exactly the reason people have a right to own firearms for their own defense. It is because when criminals attack innocents, the innocents must be able to fight back. You can’t always wait for the police to come and save you. This very incident shows, that even police can fall victim to a mentally disturbed person.

        I don’t hold any illusion that if a criminal decides to attack me without provocation, in the way these two police were attacked, that I would have a chance of survival either, regardless of me being armed or not.

    • MrNutso

      All he did was get himself killed. He did not fully know the situation and that Jerad Miller had a partner. The smarter course of action would have been to get out.

      • twenty_niner

        You must be French.

        • MrNutso

          No. I’m smart enough to know that just having a gun is not the solution.

          • twenty_niner

            I’ll keep the gun, and when the cops show up, they can do the paperwork.

        • AlanThinks

          And you must be a jerk

          • twenty_niner

            Hopefully, a gun owner will be there to take care of you if you’re under attack.

      • James

        So when the Seattle RA stopped a shooter armed with a shot gun by hitting him point blank range with pepper spray, He’s a hero and a textbook example of why guns aren’t needed.

        When a gun owner tries and stop someone from a distance and does get shot she’s a fool?

        • MrNutso

          I think others helped and tackled the guy in Seattle. What happened in Vegas seems more along the lines of I’ve got a gun and could stop this guy.

    • jmpo’lock

      Or, one might point out that it illustrates what many progressives have been saying all along: he was feckless and got himself killed, as a patently untrained civilian. Had he kept his cool (and/or been unarmed), he might still be breathing today.

      That said, HAD he actually ended them, sure you’d have a good argument….

    • 1Brett1

      Ascribing something you imagine as Amanda’s mindset (that they killed themselves because of the C&C permit holder’s heroics) for killing her husband then herself is ridiculous. It’s not known why she killed her husband and herself. The police officers had already been killed, and the “C&C permit holder” was killed before they took their own lives (more likely they took their own lives rather face arrest and prosecution). You are simply putting a spin on this (elevating the C&C permit holder’s actions beyond what they were). All that can be said of the C&C permit holder is that he was killed when he confronted the killers. It’s also telling that you consider your take on this tragedy to be better informed than any media source might be.

  • Human2013

    Please cancel your subscription to 911, immediately. Also, your welcome to enjoy this story from another source.

    • DL412

      What is a subscription to 911? Also, do you somehow believe you have the legitimacy to dismiss me from this discussion? I’m sorry, but sometimes debates have differing points of view. You don’t win by removing the other side.

  • Human2013

    All requirements met, next.

    • DL412

      Please supply the government policy that the people at the Bundy Ranch were trying to influence. If you can give an informed description, I will be elated to debate it with you.

      • Human2013

        Lets start with the grazing on government land and end with returning “the Negro” to cotton picking.

        • DL412

          Those are government policies? Or are there policies against those things that you imply the Bundys were trying to influence?

  • creaker

    Wait until they stop being random people committing random acts and start organizing. It’s happening in so many countries around the world, no reason it won’t happen here, too.

  • margbi

    Doesn’t Wayne La Pierre have a lot to answer for? There is never enough for him.

    • Human2013

      He has given his answer, more guns, more NRA members…more money for him.

    • John_in_Amherst

      the NRA bears A LOT of responsibility. Their paranoid rhetoric has inspired an arms race. The gun fetishists arm themselves with 50 cal sniper rifles. The police get armored cars and machine guns, etc. etc. Enough already.

  • Human2013

    “It’s about retuning the country to the constitution, to Judeo-Christian principles and free market economics.”

    Let me translate: It’s about returning to the 18th century state of mind, to the principles of anti-intellectualism, and free labor for CEOs. At $7/hr, I call that free labor. Free to starve, set homeless and go naked….so yes, we’re free to return to Slavery and indentured servitude and to the book of Christ to to fill our stomachs.

  • William

    It begs to question have our police forces turned into paranoid para-military organizations. SWAT teams are more common on our streets than the UPS trucks and they announce their arrival with a flash bang grenade tossed through the window into a baby crib. Why does the Railroad Retirement Board have a SWAT team?

    • Pleiades

      Here’s something for you to listen to as well as read.

      http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/americas-police-departments-see-influx-war-gear/

      Military-equipped law enforcement departments frighten people and raise the ire of the anti-government thinking individuals.

      • William

        It is a sad reflection on our society to see so many elected officials endorse the move towards more paramilitary law enforcement agencies.

        • Pleiades

          I am always looking for a justification from local elected officials for the need of para-military equipment, but I never hear one. I do understand that some in the populace are armed-to-the-teeth, and I attempt to look at it from that point, but I am still uncomfortable with both situations.

      • Bill O’Brien

        Okay, but as the populace becomes increasingly well-armed the police need to be better armed as well, don’t they?

        • TFRX

          That’s never the point, is it?

          Unless the populace are “urban” drug runners and gangbangers. Funny, that.

        • MrNutso

          That was definitely a problem some years ago. The police with revolvers were going up against criminals with large clip semi-automatic hand guns. The solution was to equip the police with the same firearms as the criminals rather than ban the manufacture and sale of semi-automatics.

        • Pleiades

          I am not afraid to agree with your assesment as I justify the availability and receipt of this equipment in that respect, but I am still uncomfortable with a populace armed-to-the-teeth and the local sheriff’s department following suit.

          • Bill O’Brien

            I agree. and if you want to repeal the 2nd amendment, or amend it the way justice stevens has recently suggested, I’ll sign your petition.

      • hennorama

        Pleiades — much of this is financed by the massive increase in “Homeland Security” spending over the last decade-plus, even in areas that are unlikely to be impacted by non-domestic terrorism.

    • hennorama

      William — riiiiight.

      The police are paranoid. They are “showing an unreasonable feeling that people are trying to harm” them.

      Sure sure. It’s completely unreasonable to feel that people are trying to harm the police, as this horrific incident clearly demonstrates.

      • William

        Was that baby in the crib that the police torched with a flash bang grenade a threat? Were to two ladies delivering newspapers in LA a few years ago and the police shot them up a threat? Do a little research and you will see we have a problem with the current police tactics in this country.

        • hennorama

          William — thank you for your response.

          Your hyperbolic and overly generalized comment, which included describing “our police forces” as possibly “paranoid,” is not made true by the fact that on some occasions, in some circumstances, some police/law enforcement officers may have/do make mistakes.

          You paint “our police forces” and “the current police tactics” as though they were all the same, everywhere, and cover them with wide strokes from a very broad brush.

          Try harder.

          • red_donn

            Hennorama – I usually find myself on the same side of a debate as your comments, but I must strenuously object to the picture you paint, perhaps unintentionally, of police rightfully wary of conspiratorial forces massing round.

            Certainly there are pscychotic personalities that feed off “don’t tread on me” rhetoric, who actively seek to do harm, and others who maintain a general frontier or Redeemer mentality. That these people can pose a threat in some circumstances is without doubt, but a more general overview of police violence cannot simply be attributed to them. In my experience, as well-to-do, and those of most of my friends, many of whom are poor and/or live in high crime neighbourhoods, the ratio of good to bad officers is 50-50, but the threat posed by a bad officer in a bad neighbourhood is much greater.

            Consider the use of tazers by law enforcement. Critics objected that, if police were given a powerful but generally non-lethal tool more acceptable (and personally safer) than an old-fashioned beating, they would greatly overuse it. This is not necessarily drawn from a bullying mindset (common though it may be) but at least as common is the desire to protect their own personal safety, and their spokesmen often say as much when questioned. The sense that an officer, in contrast to their duty to serve and protect others, may legally utilize a far greater degree of violence given far less provocation than other citizens, leads to an atmosphere which is not universal, but altogether too common.

            How many times has violence continued well past the point that the subject has been restrained? How many times (that we know of) have people been assaulted or shot on specious grounds of making an officer feel, in any way, threatened?

            There’s plenty of paranoia and violence in human society to go around.

          • hennorama

            red_donn – Thank you for your response.

            I have not written of “conspiratorial forces massing round” police officers and law enforcement.

            My comments are in no way intended to minimize the impacts or frequency of any abuses of police power, and I fully support efforts to report and investigate suspected police misconduct, and to mete out discipline, sanction, prosecution and incarceration to those who abuse their powers and authority.

            In fact, this was my very first comment in the On Point forums, from June 15, 2011, under the topic Turn Off That Camera! Filming The Police At Work:

            hennorama • 3 years ago

            This is outrageous! Police officers are public servants. Their actions are most often in public and officers therefore have no reasonable expectation of privacy. If officers have some problem with their actions being recorded, they need to either take up a different profession or get additional sensitivity training.

            In my city, there is a public access show, with approval of the Police Dept., that follows cops around and records and shows their actions. This is the way to go. Keep showing what the police do on a regular basis. More public scrutiny is better.

            See:

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/06/15/videotape-police#comment-226472088

            Your anecdotal estimate, that “the ratio of good to bad officers is 50-50,” is not in alignment with my experience, but you are of course welcome to your opinion. However, if you truly believe that every other officer you might encounter is likely to be “bad,” that might weigh heavily on your perspective.

            What is alleged to have happened in Las Vegas appears to be the calculated execution of two police officers, not as part of what might be termed “typical” law enforcement activity, but rather while the officers were simply eating a meal. The suspects then allegedly placed two potent symbols on the dead officers, and attached a written message about “revolution” to them. This was allegedly followed by the armed invasion of a large retail store, engagement with an armed civilian who was also killed, and a firefight with more police officers, during which the suspects both died.

            The motivation for such acts, which can fairly be described as “domestic terrorism,” as they seem both intended to frighten, and in pursuit of a political goal, can only be guessed at. There are multiple reports, from a variety of sources and witnesses, that the suspects regularly expressed anti-government and anti-law enforcement sentiments. There are also reports that the suspects were part of those who gathered in support of Federal scofflaw Cliven Bundy.

            Whether they were part of “conspiratorial forces massing round” is unclear, and I have not and will not engage in speculation about that topic. However, the reports do give a civilian who does not live in Nevada (me) pause, and no doubt have added stress to the already highly stressful job of law enforcement.

            This incident, and others that are similar in nature, demonstrate the validity of the idea that some people are indeed intent on trying to harm the police, and harm them not necessarily for anything any individual police officer may have done, but for what the police have come to symbolize in the minds of those who would indeed intentionally do them harm.

            Law enforcement officers live with that harsh reality every day, and must take such potential threats seriously, and then try to protect themselves accordingly. No doubt this may contribute to a sort of “Tase first, ask questions later” attitude on the part of some officers, to which you have alluded. If that is the case, then those officers should be reported and investigated, and appropriate actions taken to reduce the likelihood of such action on the future.

            Thank you again for your response.

          • red_donn

            I am glad to see that we are, in general, closer on this topic than I had begun to suspect. Perhaps it was a misreading of your response to the initial comment that led to the perceived difference.

            The initial comment referred to the increasing militarization of many elements of the police force, which I read your comment as being, to some degree, supportive of in the face of various domestic terrorists and psycopaths. However, it may have been the case that you were contrasting the outright and unquestionable paranoia of the shooters with the concerns of the police, which have some concrete foundations. That does not, of course, necessitate a reactionary stance further enabling certain aggresive police powers.

            As a final note, my “bad” cop was a euphemism for a**hole, and may denote, in my middle class life, the sort who ticket anyone who ceases to act subservient in conversation. For those with less priviliged interactions, the ratio has been similar but reflected in cops who molest women, seek criminal convictions without giving a second thought to the innocence of people, and up to those involved in organized crime. The stories I hear, including from Nevada, put me very much on guard against recklessly increasing police powers.

          • hennorama

            red_donn — TYFYR.

            Indeed my reply to [William] was focused solely on the “paranoid” aspect of his “paranoid para-military organizations” concept, and neither the “para-military” aspect, nor his ridiculous claim that “SWAT teams are more common on our streets than the UPS trucks…”

            Yes, virtually every medium-to-large police force in the U.S. has one or more tactical teams. With the massive increase in Federal “Homeland Security” spending, there has also been a tendency for law enforcement throughout the U.S. to equip themselves with as much armor and armaments as possible, until the money runs out. This is not surprising, as one might expect them to indulge a human desire for greater protection, and at least parity in firepower when compared to the weapons and well-armored foes they might face on the street.

            (Remember the Bank of America robbery in 1997, in which the suspects had full body and head armor, (converted) fully automatic assault rifles, and were firing armor-piercing rounds?)

            Part of my point is that what happened in Las Vegas is far outside the norm of what police officers have already steeled themselves against — the threat of violence via firearms, bladed weapons, blunt objects, vehicles, human hands, heads, knees, elbows, fists, etc. — that they might encounter in their “typical” workday.

            What seems to have happened was an actual small-scale terrorist attack, politically motivated and designed to frighten. If this is the start of some new level of threat, both to law enforcement/government officials, and the general populace, it is a genuine cause for concern.

            As to your final point, there of course are some bad actors among law enforcement, including some who began as asshats, and those who became asshats due to their experiences. After years of dealing with people at their worst, as cops tend to do, some will become like those they deal with. As the saying goes, “Tell me who you are with and I’ll tell you who you are.” Unfortunately, when you’re around people who are at their worst, some of their worst gets on you.

            None of the preceding does anything to vitiate or mitigate the very real threats that police officers face every day, or the possibility that they are now facing some emerging threat of small-scale terrorism.

            Thanks again for your response.

    • keltcrusader

      This all started happening after 9/11 and Dept of Homeland Security was created. Police depts all over the US were encouraged and provided the necessary funds in order to equip themselves to withstand an attack by militants inside the US. This resulted in police depts all over the country beefing up their security and training and buying armed vehicles even in locations that weren’t even deemed under threat.

  • MOFYC

    It’s about time we called this activity what it is: terrorism.

    There was no hesitation in describing left-wing activities during the 70s (like the Weather Underground) as terrorism. This is no different.

    • skelly74

      Exactly. But the only difference could be that a terrorist from the Weather Underground would eventually become a distinguished professor and hire a future U.S. President to do his bidding. But sure, he was reformed into a peaceful activist by then.

    • Leon Carter

      What was the motivation in the 70s other than terror? People are being motivated now by how citizens are treated by the police industrial complex. Almost every day I’m exposed to another story about no knock warrant went wrong. Or how a town of 6,000 residents in bumfuck Indiana needs a $500,000 truck that can withstand IEDs and 50 caliber rounds.

  • AC

    lots of people hate everything until they need something – they’re called ‘selfish jerks’

    • MrNutso

      Quoted the Tea Partier, keep your hands off my Medicare.

  • X Y & Z

    If Obama wants some expert, inside information as to how domestic terrorists operate, then he should call his old acquaintance from Chicago, Bill Ayers, who is best remembered for bombing the Pentagon.

  • https://www.facebook.com/kyle.rose Kyle Rose

    Two thoughts:

    (1) These two people were clearly nutbags for thinking this kind of action would help their cause. That having been said…

    (2) If police officers don’t want to be treated as an occupying force, maybe they should stop trying to look and act like a military.

    Personally, I’d like to see police officers stop being “law enforcement” and go back to being “peace officers” whose sole responsibility is to keep people from killing or robbing each other. Very few people would have a problem with police action that didn’t involve 2 am flash-bang SWAT raids on old folks based on anonymous tips about drug use.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    OK with you folks if scrap the 2nd amendment now? It’s no longer the late 18th century* and the Dalton brothers aren’t walking the streets of Laredo.+

    * Scrap of parchment written by white landed-gentry colonial gentlemen.

    + More than likely they’re in BBQ Billy’s scaring the hell out of the staff.

    • AlanThinks

      How about amending it to require training, licensing of owner, registration of gun, no private sales, liability insurance, no semi-automatics, and a limit on the number of guns owned – laws to apply across the entire USA?

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    They dropped a “Don’t Tread On Me” flag *and* a swastika on the bodies of the policemen they murdered in cold blood.

    • TFRX

      (Your verb tense is confusing. Did they really do this, or are you using a comparative hyperbole?)

      Edit: The swastika thing is reported as happening, so that cancels my question. Leaving my question there for clarity’s sake.

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        They dropped both a DTOM flag and a swastika.

        • MrNutso

          Tossed is how I heard the swastika, but I’m just splitting hairs.

        • Coastghost

          Thanks to you and to Tom Ashbrook for offering that clarification.

    • hennorama

      Neil Blanchard — if you watched the press conference when those details were announced, the disgust and disdain of the spokesperson was clearly visible on his face.

      The news that it was a police round that ended one suspect’s life comes as no surprise, based on the circumstances.

  • rich4321

    If there weren’t so many guns floating around, perhaps there will be no need for S.W.A.T. The criminals out gun and out power the police. The arms race continues.

    • streetglide

      I left my gun home alone today. It didn’t go out and kill anyone.

      • rich4321

        I was talking about guns in the hands of the criminals.

  • MrNutso

    The deaths of the Sheriff’s deputy’s falls in part on the hands of those conservatives who rallied to the defense of Cliven Bundy as a hero rather than the criminal that he is.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Bundy aka Freddy the Freeloader. Hoober Doober

      • warryer

        Never mind the millions of freeloaders who pop out babies to increase their welfare checks.

        • jmpo’lock

          Millions? really? Maybe if we had universal healthcare with actual sex ed and family planning that wouldn’t happen? Oh, that’s right abortion isn’t allowed thus…..

          • warryer

            I’d say abstinence is a means of family planning, wouldn’t you?

          • jmpo’lock

            That’s inhuman, and why Priests mess up I guess
            But surely you understand that we have advanced quite a bit in the science of birth control, or do you not believe in science? Oh! I get it! You are ANTI-SEX!

        • TFRX

          I was gonna say “You don’ tknow much about the cost of child-rearing”.

          But now I’m going to expand the scope to “You don’t know much about anything, do you”?

          • warryer

            Your rose tinted glasses are showing dear TFRX.

          • keltcrusader

            It just all goes back to sex is bad and wanting it is even worse, especially for women. Even those who are married shouldn’t have or want it unless they want a boatload of kids, and then they are just irresponsible and have no self-control. I guess we should go back to the days where married folks start sleeping in separate rooms after they have had enough kids, right?. So really, its just about controlling everyone’s private lives to conform to some book written by uptight men thousands of years ago.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Sleep gas these fascists. When they wake up naked and penniless at midnight in Detroit the problem with them will be quickly handled. The feds can give the city $1k a head: for the disposal of the remains.*

    * Maybe $10k for Limbaugh: dump truck; crane.

    • Robin Tedlock

      What do you have against the people of Detroit? You think they wouldn’t help fellow citizens attacked this way by a tyrannical government? Your comment wouldn’t have anything to do with the racial makeup of Detroit would it, and what are you assuming exactly?

  • jmpo’lock

    It’s really amazing, these terrorists get themselves so worked up about a paranoid fear of government coming for their guns, that they then snap into a preemptive strike on said government which is decidedly NOT going for their guns. The guy up in Canada did exactly this same thing. Tim McVeigh, et al.

    Perhaps with enough of this domestic terrorism, the government will finally relent and actually go for their guns…

    And yes, of course they ARE actually dangerous terrorists unlike “eco-terrorists”. Thank goodness Holder re-established the anti-domestic terror unit…

  • Pleiades

    While the Miller’s were visiting the compound of Cliven Bundy before and after being requested to leave, did any of the “Sagebrush Rebellion” individuals warn law enforcement officers about the Miller’s “mental illness”? That’s what I thought.

    Remember, the BLM officers were actively performing their duty and have to consider their safety in that action since so many armed individuals were already there.

    Unfortunately, their safety while performing their duty has no consideration in your comments.

  • AlanThinks

    The sound bite of the Jared Miller sounded exactly like what one hears on Glenn Beck, Rush, or even O’Reilly. Same paranoid blather and angry intonation.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Idaho and Oklahoma already are concentration camps. Just run a fence around them and put up a sign: Nutters Welcome!

  • M S

    So, the U.S. Government isn’t controlled by the elite? That’s not what it looks like to me.

  • X Y & Z

    I don’t remember hearing any liberal outrage when the Obama Administration allowed thousands of guns to be sold to Mexican drug cartels.

    • OnPointComments

      And it resulted in hundreds of deaths.

    • creaker

      it was drowned out by the mock outrage generated by the conservatives

      • OnPointComments

        And it was drowned out by the absolute acceptance by those who approve of anything and everything done by the Obama administration.

        • jmpo’lock

          ‘cept that it was NOT done by this administration

    • MrNutso

      How can you equate the target killing of peace officers with a misguided plan (started under the previous administration) to try and target illegal gun sales to the drug cartels?

      • OnPointComments

        How can you brush aside hundreds of deaths, including the killing of a US border agent?

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          How are these two police officers different from the border agent?

        • jimino

          The same way you brush aside all the killings with firearms in our country: They are an unfortunate result of preserving our 2nd Amendment rights as defined by conservatives.

        • jmpo’lock

          Yeah, liberals sure are known to be disinterested in violence and death in society…

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      You missed it. Check past On Point shows. HD

    • hennorama

      Robodrone Alert.

      • X Y & Z

        Keep acting childish.

    • jmpo’lock

      You mean the Bush administration

    • jimino

      The second amendment and the freedoms attached to it allow such sales between private parties as a matter of right. Do you oppose those rights? Do you advocate centrally planning who guns can be sold to?

      • jmpo’lock

        Wrong on private sales, no right there. Nothing in constitution about that. And even Scalia understands that regulation is constitutional

        • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

          Since the constitution applies to the united states of america, guns should NOT be bought or sold across ANY US border. EVER.

  • jimino

    Is it time to call out the militia to put down these rebels? Isn’t that what it’s for?

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Better: hire the fascist groups to wage war on one another. Everybody wins! HD

  • Joe

    These crazed radicals are just the logical extension of the Tea Party.

    • warryer

      Is that really what you believe?

      • creaker

        when groups of people decide that working within the system will not work for them, they will work outside of it – just look at the middle east and many other hot spots in world if you need examples

        • warryer

          To make the connection between these radicals and a political entity working within the system is not valid unless it can be proven with hard facts that these people represent what the Tea party believes.

    • Carla

      Better run, some Tea Party guy just beat Eric Cantor

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    When you see these folks eating BBQ with their feet, watch out. They’re keeping their hands free for weapons handling.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    I am speaking DIRECTLY to members of the sovereign citizen movement: Violence is NEVER the answer or the way. Sovereign citizens must cultivate conduct befitting a sovereign. Violence ONLY gives the movement a bad name. The ONLY way forward is to calmly, peacefully state your case, and have the legal chops to calmly, peacefully, legally argue your case in public.

    DO NOT ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE. Doing so is tantamount to shooting yourself in the foot, and setting back the movement another twenty to fifty years. NEVER EVER engage in violence!
    In order for the sovereign citizen movement to gain any traction, you need the support of the public!

    The sovereign citizen movement rests on the principle that ALL citizens are sovereign. Therefore, no citizen may violate the rights and freedoms of another citizen. Violence trespasses on the rights and freedoms of other citizens, and thus, is against your own principles!

    Calmly, peacefully state your case that control of the national guard MUST be returned to the states. That the legal system and the courts are based in fraud. That there must be a “corpus delecti”, an “injury” against a natural born person in order for a crime to have been committed. No injury, no crime. State your case that judges cannot be paid by the plaintiff, in cases such as “the city vs.”… Judges being compensated by one of the litigating parties is a conflict of interest, based on the fact those fines are paying their salary! Conflict of interest! The list goes on.

    Do NOT engage in violence. GO TO LAW SCHOOL.

  • AC

    i think a lot of angry/lonely people hear about these radicals and think ‘oh, here’s something i can belong too’. they make for good news coverage/hyper conversation so it SEEMS they’re more popular than they are…

    • 1Brett1

      Often times, it seems similar to what happens when someone is taken in by some bizarre religious cult. To someone who is lonely/feels disenfranchised in some way, finding others who offer them a sense of belonging, no matter how much of a fringe group that may be, can be a potent allure, I suppose.

  • TFRX

    Tom, how much do these folks pay heed to “county sheriff” as the highest level of government they’re supposed to pay attention to?

    Because there’s a nasty history of that going back to the Posse Comitatus

    stuff after the Civil War in the South which should not be ignored.

  • jmpo’lock

    You are a terrorist by definition (using intimidation and the threat of use of force, for a political end). The Bundy’s are freeloading thieves who have refused to pay to feed their cattle on We the People’s land.
    It is only a matter of time before you are rightfully imprisoned, and we will relish that day. Hopefully you will not have to die for your ignorance.

  • creaker

    great – don’t restrict guns – just restrict ideas. nice

  • hellokitty0580

    Frankly, these actions are abhorrent and the people who support them are abhorrent. This isn’t what America about and it isn’t patriotic. Those police officers took jobs that risk their lives on a daily basis and they should be held up for those choices. These people are terrorists. They’re murderers. They’re ignorant idiots. I don’t even think they know what they’re angry about. They say they’re angry at the government, but I think they’re just scared of changing American demographics and culture. They’re afraid of becoming minorities. Well, welcome to the party.

    You want to change the government? Make meaningful contributions. Advocate for peaceful change with your voice. Volunteer. Get involved with your community. That’s what the first amendment is for. It’s easy to say get rid of everything when there are problems. It’s a lot more challenging to make fixes to the existing system. They’re taking the easy way out and it’s pathetic.

  • X Y & Z

    U.S. acknowledges killing of four U.S. citizens in counterterrorism operations

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-acknowledges-killing-of-four-us-citizens-in-counterterrorism-operations/2013/05/22/7a21cf84-c31d-11e2-8c3b-0b5e9247e8ca_story.html

    I don’t hear the left getting upset when Obama orders American citizens be killed (including a 16 year old boy), which is a total violation of the Bill of Rights, which no American can be deprived of.

    • northeaster17

      You are not listening then. But then the left does not have it’s own broadcasting arm like Fox

      • X Y & Z

        The link I posted was from the Washington Post, not Fox.

        You were too busy looking for an excuse to go on a rant to check.

        • northeaster17

          What are you talking about. The article makes no mention of the left getting upset about anything. The word left is not even used in the article. There is however this…..”Although the administration has stressed the precision accuracy of drones, independent groups have charged that thousands of civilians have been unintentionally killed.” Those independent groups include people you might include to be on the left.

          The Article also includes this….”Congressional and public criticism reached a crescendo this year when Obama nominated John Brennan, then his principal counter­terrorism adviser, as CIA director. Before they would confirm Brennan, lawmakers demanded access to Justice Department legal opinions justifying the killing of U.S. citizens overseas without due process or other constitutional protections. Although the documents were made available to the Senate and House intelligence committees, other members insisted that they had a right to the information.

          One of them was Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), who threatened last month to subpoena the administration for the opinions.

          Lefty Leahy threatened to supoena the admin.

          Did you even read the article you sited? Or maybe you just misunderstood it.

          Here is just one leftist view of the drone stikes. Check it out. and pick up the pace will ya
          http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/12/24/obama_s_new_normal_the_drone

      • jmpo’lock

        That’s because they constantly mistake the MSM for “the left”, they never listen/watch true left like Democracy Now!

      • Carla

        Well you have Off Center with Tom Leftbrook. At least Fox is honest about their affiliations. NPR masquerades as neutral.

  • Rebecca

    I would like to see the anti-government folks try to get by without government. They would be unable to use the roads, fly, survive the next global pandemic, benefit from government-funded medical research, have clean water to drink, among many other things.

    • Carla

      Praise God for government, source of all good in the world! But really, grouping those who believe government has gotten out of control with those who want zero government is not serious. You can handle more subtlety, no?

  • John_in_Amherst

    the NRA, FOX and the GOP have been treading close to (and sometimes over) the line between freedom of speech and sedition since Obama took office. That this rhetoric has stoked a segment of the paranoid, gun-toting lunatic fringe to lethal action should hardly be surprising. What is shocking is the reticence of the media to cover this situation, and call out the main players for their parts in it, and the unwillingness of the federal government to prosecute. When groups of armed men confront federal agents and obstruct justice, it is a crime. Sedition is illegal.
    Gun fetishists are threatening and bullying law enforcement officials and the vast majority of the public that wants stricter gun control, and politicians wet themselves at the prospect of confronting them.

    se·di·tion [si-dish-uhn] noun
    1.incitement of discontent or rebellion against a government.
    2.any action, especially in speech or writing, promoting such discontent or rebellion.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    When you hear a moderate, progressive, liberal say he’s for the 2nd amendment with legal controls he’s saying he’s for limited bloodshed. He believes so long as it’s not his kids then it’s OK.

    So much for that superior moral high ground the Clintons and the Obamas of the world are always droning on and on about.

    • Tom

      @disqus_uLXoYhOzMT:disqus
      Nonsense.
      1. More kids are killed by their parents’ guns than are saved by parents with guns.
      2. I as left-wing as it gets (from Scotland originally), and I support gun rights … up to a point. Can I carry an ground to air missile, a bazooka, grenades, small nuclear device, based on your 2nd amendment? Can some rich looney have a fleet of fully armed fighter jets and bombers?
      3. Your 2nd amendment is an amendment. It can be amended.

      • chupa

        This argument about what’s to stop someone from getting bombs, tanks, battleships based on the 2nd amendment is as absurd as the anti-gay marriage argument of “if you let two men or two women get married, what’s to stop a man from marrying a dog.” A jet fighter does not equate arms, which is small arms, pistols and long guns. Just like two men marrying does not equate a man marrying an animal.

        • Tom

          Chupa, the 2 arguments have nothing in common. Get real.

          • chupa

            It’s the tendency of people like you to argue “Can I carry an ground to air missile, a bazooka, grenades, small nuclear device, based on your 2nd amendment?” The anti-gay marriage people argue “gay marriage will lead to people marrying horses.” How are these two not similar? This is real, use your brain.

      • Robin Tedlock

        You can legally own a jet or tank, and some rich militaria enthusiasts do. You can’t have the ordinance for it though, because its considered explosives.

  • TFRX

    “There are a few kooks out there,” says Glenn Beck.

    Indeed.

    Tom, you’re allowed to snort derisively at jagoffs like Beck. He’s too much of a nutjob for Fox News to even cover his ass any longer.

  • OnPointComments

    Many of the people concerned about anti-government activists supported wholeheartedly the Occupy Wall Street movement, which committed a very long list of crimes, including rape, assault, arson, and theft.

    • TFRX

      The bus for the Chuckle Bucket leaves any minute now.

    • Tom

      @OnPointComments:disqus
      Occupy does not incite or commit violence. You made all that up.

      • OnPointComments

        I assume you’re either striving for sarcasm, or you’re delusional.

    • jmpo’lock

      If anything, if these separatist groups had any intellectual honesty (not to mention morality) they would SUPPORT the OWS movement, and deplore all the militarized Police attacks and arrests…and they bitch about 1st amendment constrictions…what a joke

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      WRONG. MEMBERS or SUPPORTERS of the OWS movement committed those acts. The crimes were not centrally endorsed. EVER. In fact, the opposite is true.

    • hennorama

      OPC — sorry, but criminals “committed a very long list of crimes,” not any “movement.”

      The same can be said here.

      The criminals committed crimes, not the “movements” to which they subscribed.

      • Robin Tedlock

        Oh. But wait, I thought the NRA and Fox is basically responsible for all these shootings and not just the criminals that did the crimes? Can you people be consistent for one minute here? lol

        • hennorama

          Robin Tedlock — thank you for your response.

          You assume me to be a member of whatever you define as “you people.” You also assume thoughts and ideas that I have not expressed.

          Those are misassumptions.

          Other than that, your comment is well-taken.

  • nj_v2

    These paranoid, delusional extremists, responding to imagined, vast conspiracies are clearly dangerous, and, perhaps, their numbers are growing along with their propensity toward these kinds of violent actions.

    In no way offered as an excuse or justification, it is impossible to not imagine that the occasional (?) mis-behavior of law enforcement and mis-application of justice in the criminal-law system are a source of motivation for these types.

    Note recent, documented incidents:

    Indiana officers left woman naked for hours after force-stripping, pepper-spraying her

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/10/indiana-officers-left-woman-naked-for-hours-after-force-stripping-pepper-spraying-her/

    CA cop fatally shoots 18-year-old special needs girl after family calls for medical help

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/04/ca-cop-fatally-shoots-18-year-old-special-needs-girl-after-family-calls-for-medical-help/

    Texas man facing possible life sentence for pot brownies

    http://khon2.com/2014/05/16/texas-man-facing-possible-life-sentence-for-pot-brownies/

    • jmpo’lock

      I think you are correct. Police misconduct definitely exacerbates their paranoia. In fact the Millers were visited by the Police on a Homeland Security tip. They felt they were being hunted by the “evil tyrannical” government

  • M S

    The government doesn’t have authority over its citizens without their consent.

    • MrNutso

      Isn’t that why we have elections?

      • M S

        Well, in short, no. Elected officials most commonly operate the government how they see fit. Look at the ‘stop-and-frisk’ policy in New York City under Bloomberg and his henchman, Kelly.

        What gives anyone the right to stop, detain, and search a citizen without a warrant or reasonable suspicion?

        • MrNutso

          Elected official working under written frameworks such as a constitution or city charger augment by laws and ordinances until such time as a court invalidates it.

    • jimino

      Yes, it’s created and controlled by the Constitution. Is some other consent necessary in your view?

  • William
    • jimino

      Yeah. I constantly hear Republicans and conservatives complaining about that – NOT!

      Maybe you should consider joining the ACLU which does target such activity.

      • William

        The interesting aspect of this article is the Democrats are silent too.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    The sovereign citizen movement rests on the principle that ALL citizens are sovereign. Therefore, no citizen may violate the rights and freedoms of another citizen. Violence trespasses on the rights and freedoms of other citizens, and thus, is against the principles of the sovereign citizen movement! PERIOD.

    Terrorists and violent criminals ARE NOT members of the sovereign citizen movement, no matter what they may claim!

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Tanana, AK. On the Yukon River. It’s a tough place out there in the bush. Village police officer. Troopers are in Fairbanks. Many places accessible only by air, weather permitting. Very difficult keeping the peace sometimes. Signed.. Graduate, University of Alaska at Fairbanks

  • John_Hamilton

    Discussion of “right wing” fanatics rarely includes the mental health aspect, relying mainly on the tiresome “ideology” of the believers. There also is the Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds factor. People join mass movements for affiliation needs, as a way of projecting out their insecurities and fears, lashing out against “authority,” and for self-esteem needs fulfillment.

    We live in such a sea of corporate malfeasance, government corruption and media irresponsibility that the legitimacy of traditional institutions is in serious question. The resulting breakdown in public support for established social institutions makes it more likely that people on the outer edges will do something extreme.

    It seems pretty obvious that the most effective way to minimize the occurrence of extreme behavior is for established institutions to clean up their acts. It is highly likely, for example, that Fox News has engaged in the same kinds of activities here as its owner News Corp did in England, as well as other culpable activities such as slander. A functioning democracy would remove this criminal network from the airwaves, but our president gives it exclusive interviews. The times are strange indeed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

  • Tom

    Which elected Politicians have been riling up this type of violence? The right wing tea party and extreme right wing politicians.

    • jmpo’lock

      Gov. of AZ, Sarah Palin (ex Gov. AK), pretty much every Republican from Texas and the entire South

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Anyone who claims they support the 2nd amendment. That includes the pols on the Supreme Court. HD

      • Tom

        @disqus_uLXoYhOzMT:disqus
        As a Brit, I was wondering if your 2nd amendment can let me carry a ground to air missile, a bazooka, a bunch of grenades, and a rich looney to have a fleet of fully armed fighter jets and B52 bombers?

    • MrNutso

      :Waving hand: Pick me, pick me.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Obama = Outrage. But not results.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/us/troutdale-oregon-reynolds-high-school-shooting.html

    BHO might as well just putt around the back 9 at Andrews AFB for all the good he does us.

  • OnPointComments

    How does the number of killings by anti-government activists over the past 2 years stack up against the 1,000+ plus killings in Chicago over the past 2 years?

    • N G

      Exactly.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Fascism = early onset dementia. Demonstrating once again why we need free public mental health care. FOR ALL.

  • William

    Tom, you seem to be looking for a threat that is not there. Beyond a few kooks there is just not a wide spread problem.

    http://m.dailykos.com/story/2007/06/28/351433/-Deadly-wrong-door-Paramilitary-Police-Raids-in-USA

  • creaker

    How does everyone think all these rebel/insurgent movements in other countries started?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    NSA spying hither and you doesn’t seem to do very much to counter domestic terrorism. We should just shutter that agency and spend the savings on local law enforcement. And take a real bite out of nutterism.*

    * Including those who work in black ops.

  • NewtonWhale

    GOP, 1995:

    “I was outraged when, even in the wake of the Oklahoma City tragedy, Mr. Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of N.R.A., defended his attack on federal agents as “jack-booted thugs.” To attack Secret Service agents or A.T.F. people or any government law enforcement people as “wearing Nazi bucket helmets and black storm trooper uniforms” wanting to “attack law abiding citizens” is a vicious slander on good people.”

    -George H. W. Bush, in his letter of resignation from the NRA.

    GOP, 2014:

    Nevada’s senators sparred Friday on live TV in Las Vegas over the standoff between the federal government and rancher Cliven Bundy.

    “What Sen. Reid may call domestic terrorists, I call patriots,” GOP Sen. Dean Heller said during the rare joint appearance on KSNV-TV. “We have a very different view on this.”

    http://blogs.rollcall.com/wgdb/heller-calls-bundy-ranch-supporters-patriots-reid-sticks-with-domestic-terrorists/?dcz=

    Republican congressional candidate says violent overthrow of government is ‘on the table’

    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/local-politics/20101022-Republican-congressional-candidate-says-violent-overthrow-9918.ece

    Sharron Angle Floated ’2nd Amendment Remedies’ As ‘Cure’ For ‘The Harry Reid Problems’

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/16/sharron-angle-floated-2nd_n_614003.html

    • FrankensteinDragon

      But Prescott senior supported the nazis financially thru his bank. And Bush policies are quite fascist. And the militarized police do behave in fascistic militant ways in support of the 1%. The homeless are persecuted, beaten, and murdered by police. Minorities are persecuted, beaten, and murdered by police. Poor neighborhoods are harassed and bullied by thug police while the millionaire corrupt class is protected with immunity. If you cant see that you are out of touch and perhaps in an all white privileged neighborhood or gated community. But like most people you probably don’t care. Silence is approval. Denial is evil.

  • X Y & Z

    Eric Holder We Need To Brainwash People Against GUNS

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwsEkGTpBU

  • MrNutso

    So the part of the second amendment that says “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the free state…” play. Who regulates the militia.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Nobody.
      –SCOTUS

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      Control of the national guard must be returned to the states.

    • manganbr

      apparently “security of the state” has turned into security from the state

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    What America needs most is about 7 or 8 well-placed coronaries on the US Supreme Court. And replace ancient jurists with folks who live in THIS CENTURY.

    • X Y & Z

      Careful what you wish for. If Obama gets to put another Justice on the Supreme Court, he’ll have a liberal majority. Say adios to the First and Second Amendments, property rights, and hello to dictatorship.

  • Guest

    To all the people shouting “2nd amendment” all the time:
    As a Brit, I was wondering if your 2nd amendment can let me carry a ground to air missile, a bazooka, a bunch of grenades, and a rich looney to have a fleet of fully armed fighter jets and B52 bombers?

    • OnPointComments

      No.

      • Tom

        Correct. So answer the question, why do they get to carry a military machine gun?

        • Jeff

          Fully automatic machine guns have been illegal since the 1930′s. You’re talking about semi-automatic which includes nearly every handgun and hunting rifle in the United States….are you suggesting we should make those illegal? Or were you not aware of the difference between fully and semi-automatic and what is legal and illegal?

          • Tom

            So tell that to the ’2nd amendment” ranters. There are legal limits to gun ownership, and the ONLY one I’ve heard most Americans call for, is background checks for unstable, psychiatric issues, and criminals. There are specific limits to be made, as you just pointed out.

          • Jeff

            The odd thing is that it’s the left fighting against a list of mentally unstable people who are ineligible to purchase firearms…they say it violates the rights of those people. Background checks are done currently by any federally licensed (any actual gun shop) dealer. Only private transactions don’t go through the background checks currently…you know like a grandfather passing his shotgun down to his grandson…are you suggesting we should be doing a background check on those sales too? How on Earth could regulate that? What should the punishment be if that grandfather didn’t realize he was supposed to do a background check on his own grandson?

          • twenty_niner

            Although, you can legally purchase machine guns with an FFL.

          • Jeff

            Sure, but you basically have to go through the same background check as someone with secret clearance. You can only really have them as a high level dealer or gun buff with a ton of money.

    • MrNutso

      Not yet.

    • twenty_niner

      Only semi-automatics are currently legal under the 2nd amendment. The idea of a line seems to confound liberals in certain issues. Even in the UK, there are lines that can’t be crossed – you can go out and drink 10 pints, but you can sidle up to the bar and start shooting heroin.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Can?

        • twenty_niner

          typo

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    John Boehner. Get off your lazy posterior and enact some effective, massive weapons control legislation. No respect intended. Thanks.

    • mitspanner

      What is the proper response then, to having a standing army in our midst?

  • James

    Every time the police beat someone, it gets broadcasted on the internet, every time a dog is shot (or puppies) it is broadcasted all over the internet, every time a SWAT team injuries someone raiding the wrong property it gets broadcasted all over the internet.
    And it won’t be too hard for someone to find at least one of these stories per week.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Flowers is correct.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    No one should let FoxNews (not News) off the hook on this flirting with this race/hate stuff, either.
    Its especially tragic because it’s really only being done to serve a particular established market of viewers.
    I saw a clip of extreme phony Hannity WARNING Bundy of rumors regarding a possible ‘midnight raid’ by the Government.
    Now, can you imagine if an innocent person happened to pass by in that vicinity during that time frame?: An innocent person could have easily been killed, ostensibly, in his/her own back yard by one of the more ‘aggressive’ types, and It would have been Hannity’s (FoxNews (not News’)) fault.

  • N G

    No follow up on Brandon s comments about militarized police departments?

    • mitspanner

      And don’t forget, We have the highest incarceration rate in the world, with space in our jails for the poor, while the rich perpetrators of multibillion-dollar crimes walk free.

  • dt03044

    This insanity spikes whenever there is a Democrat in the White House. Clinton: Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc. Obama…..here we go again. These people are so concerned the government is coming to take their guns away, that they delude themselves into believing it’s real. It’s frightening to the majority of normal Americans who don’t think this way.

    • Robin Tedlock

      It is real though. The Democrats stupidly started talking about emotional kneejerk (and ineffective) gun laws again that would make criminals out of most legal gun owners. I thought they learned from the 90′s not to do that? Clinton’s assault weapon ban not only didn’t affect crime, the backlash to it is likely a big part of what crippled his 2nd term. Telling a law abiding citizen gun owner that half of the guns they own are now going to be illegal and they are going to be committing a felony if they dont turn them into the police actually is ‘the government coming for your guns’!

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Caller Brandon seems to be forgetting about September 11th and why police departments are being militarized.

    • N G

      I don’t forget why. But this militarization is being used for domestic policing not only anti terrorism.

      • N G

        Furthermore used to intimidate and discourage non violent domestic protests.

    • mitspanner

      Is that why small rural sheriffs offices, In counties with negligible crime rates are buying armored vehicles?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    The next president may have to declare martial law. First up: shutter Fox News. Then GITMO the fascists who support or encourage armed resistance. We might as well get some use out of that place.

    • Robin Tedlock

      You think we should have martial law, shut down television stations, and indefinitely detain people for political reasons…. Who is the fascist here? Haha wow

    • Carla

      Inside every liberal is a totalitarian screaming to get out

  • Will Jones

    America’s credal civil religion’s three tenets enshrined on The Great Seal of the Covenant of the People with God, our named Sovereign, the Creator of the universe require obedience, adherence, and submission only to Truth and Justice, in accord with the prophet Mr. Jefferson’s utopian whig vision and the Hebrew prophet Isaiah’s foretold “New Israel,” the “Promised Land.”

    Only in this way can our divine right of Individual Sovereignty be maintained and secured. One is sovereign under God alone, or one is a slave of Satan.

    There is no “in-between.”

    One is a “whig” serving only God; or, one is a “tory,” a slave of “monarchy and popery” as Thomas Paine’s Revolution-triggering “Common Sense” explained.

    Whig v. tory is God v. Satan, then, now, and forever.

    The truth is 9/11 was treason: no planes hit the World Trade Center, and a missile hit the Pentagon, and only America meets Isaiah’s several signs given by by “Israel” is to be recognized. Rothschild Zionism’s “State of Israel” meets not a single one of Isaiah’s stipulations. Read the Bible yourself.

    Liars are of Satan, and Satan’s false Jew Talmud/papist “team” has been working together to “own the world” for thousands of years….”interrupted” by the American Revolution against king and pope.

    Theirs is a satanic Fifth Column in our midst which believes we Blacks and Whites, who gave them shelter, are “sub-human animals” their rabbis teach them “to lie to, cheat, rob, enslave, and kill, with impunity.” Their “N-word” for all we Americans is “goyim,” “a mindless herd of cattle.”

    They are false Jew Talmuds, as Talmudism usurped Judaism long ago, and with the Roman Catholics ran “the Wall Street of slavery” for over 2,000 years. They now control Washington, the New Rome on the Potomac and the NY/LA “Sodom and Gomorrah Axis” and promote illegal immigration by pliant Hispanic Roman Catholics to overcome any vestiges of our Pioneer Spirit and knowledge of Smithian Capitalism’s moral philosophy enunciated in “Annuit Coeptis.”

    Caesarpapism’s “logo,” the symbol of the power and authority of the Roman State/Anti-Christ – the opposite of the Deistic Whiggism which founded Our Nation – is nailed to the front wall of the U.S. House of Representatives, as a dog urinates on a fire hydrant, for every eye to see: the Fasces.

    Shall we all agree to hang Bush and Cheney for their proven complicity in the Mossad/CIA/FBI 9/11 treason, and hang Bush’s father for his proven role in the Roman Catholic CIA/FBI’s adjudicated assassination of JFK (viz. ‘Hunt v. Marchetti’) to restore Rome’s bankers’ Fed Scam JFK had ended and to send 58K of us to die as papal catspaw in Vietnam shedding the blood of millions of innocents on behalf of the Roman Catholic colonial false-elite’s five percent which owned 95% of Vietnam’s wealth; or shall we continue to allow ourselves to be gaslighted by the false Jew Talmuds and Organized Crime of Hollywood Babylon – who have worked thousands of years for the Entity Thomas Jefferson identified as “the real Anti-Christ” “engine for enslaving mankind” all know is now staging the proven mass-shootings hoaxes like Sandy Hook, Aurora/Batman, and Isla Vista as MKUltra predicates to disarm the sovereign People’s standing in the way of Vatican bankers Rothschilds’ and Rockefellers’ treasonous Fifth Column’s “Shoot-the-Moon?”

    Death for Treason against the Truth and Justice of God, our Sovereign

    • jmpo’lock

      Here lies evidence that wearing tin foil on one’s head for an extended period causes brain damage…

      • Will Jones

        Ad hominem in lieu of intelligence, logic, patriotism or class?

        • jmpo’lock

          Yup, I very purposely meant to smear you publicly.

          • Will Jones

            Talmud or papist, fascist or “fox without tail?”

          • jefe68

            Possum without a tree?
            Skunk without a nest?

      • Will Jones

        Are you Talmud or papist?

        • jmpo’lock

          Neither. I’m rational

          • Will Jones

            You are a liar.

          • jmpo’lock

            You are hilarious

          • Will Jones

            Godless moron or satanic traitor?

          • jmpo’lock

            I’d say see you in hell, but you’re right, I don’t believe in that

          • Will Jones

            America’s Sovereign is the Creator of the universe, by name: God Almighty…it is this fact which provides the divine right of Individual Sovereignty Rome’s satanic Fifth Column needs to destroy.

          • jmpo’lock

            Thanks, from the mouth of the American Taliban to my ears….

          • Will Jones

            You’ve admitted you are Godless, hence no man and no American.

          • jmpo’lock

            That’s correct, I’m a Daemon, immortal, omniscient, all powerful, and remember, I AM COMING FOR YOU!!!! Your Jesus IDOL can NOT protect you. Prepare for your DOOM!!!!

          • Will Jones

            QED

          • jefe68

            He should have his own realty show with the Jersey shore wives.

          • Will Jones

            You are Fascism’s shill.

      • jefe68

        Drunk on his own dogma is more like it.

        • Will Jones

          America ignores the utopian vision of Our Prophet and Founder, Mr. Jefferson, at our peril.

          Whig v. tory is, in fact, God v. Satan, then, now, and forever.

          Godless morons and satanic traitors will “pretend” to “disagree.”

          • jefe68

            Are you for real?
            I mean this is a wind up, right?

          • Will Jones

            You’re a paid fascist shill, right?

          • jefe68

            Oy vey.

    • hennorama

      Thank You On Point, for the handy [Collapse] minus sign, allowing one to “disappear” the screed above.

      (For those who don’t know, the handy [Collapse] minus sign appears to the far right of the poster’s moniker, whenever one’s cursor is placed in a comment.)

      • Will Jones

        Papist or Talmud: trying to hide American Truth?

      • jefe68

        Wow, I’m not sure who this guy is but I hope he does not own firearms. Talk about unhinged and borderline.

        • Will Jones

          Actually twice sworn to The Oath I’ve been given two Top Secret clearances. My family built America and you should check your own patriotism and intellect.

          • jefe68

            Not anymore sparky.
            “Incoming message from the Big Giant Head.”…

          • Will Jones

            Talmud or papist? Fess up.

          • jefe68

            I’m from Saturn, like Sun Ra.
            Space is the place…

          • Will Jones

            No patriotic, intelligent discourse for you, clown.

          • jefe68

            Snif… I’m all shook up Mr. Bupkis.
            I thought we really had something too.

        • hennorama

          jefe68 — for some reason, the name of a series of Warner Bros. shorts comes to mind here.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    WOW!!!!!!!!
    I actually agree with the ‘sympathetic’ caller about the police!
    The chip-on-their-shoulder types need do need to be ‘checked’ more!

  • creaker

    This movement embodies the true American ideal – “I want what I want when I want it”.

    • MrNutso

      And the corollary: “You can’t have what you want when you want it.”

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    So long as Americans elect toffs to the presidency, the country will never get a handle on homegrown insurrections. These millionaire pols are too soft, too lazy, too well connected to apply a size 12 boot to the butt of the problem.

  • N G

    I in no way condone any of these patriot actions and shooting of officers but seriously Tom was remiss in ignoring the comment about militarization of police and the resulting fear and distrust.

    • James

      I could easily find one example per week (if not every two weeks) of a botched SWAT raid, a police officer killing a pet, a group of police beating the **** out of someone who is handcuffed, or a police officer shooting a guy who just pulled a knife; who just got hit by tear gas and is standing some 30 feet away.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        In a video game or in real life?

        • James

          Since I put the odds of Onpoint of censoring such a video at, at least 50%, all I can say is Google “illegal camper shot byAlbuquerque Police”

  • skelly74

    Alex Jones is not a leader for anyone other than twigh-light zone fans. Anybody that has ever heard him knows his shtick. Playing sound bites of him and describing him as a leader of anything is mis-leading.

    • Government_Banking_Serf

      Thats how the overgeneralization and broad brush game works……

      • jmpo’lock

        I imagine you’ve seen “V for Vendetta” right? You do know which side V was on, right? He took out the Alex Jones type media guy for a reason….

  • Roy-in-Boise

    Palmer Raids, the bombing of the House of Morgan, Sacco and Vanzetti … here we go again.

    • creaker

      It is a side effect of economic inequality – as we’ve seen in our own history and everywhere else.

    • MrNutso

      Indeed. Well document in Bill Bryson’s latest book.

  • MrNutso

    How about discussing in light of the Cliven Bundy standoff how some in the political elite and media supported Bundy and his criminal behavior as being Patriotic?

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    The first thing these ‘ANGRY’ types need to do is look in the mirror and FINALLY blame themselves, for once, for the mess they’ve created!

    They NEVER take responsibility for anything!!!!!
    At least here in the deep South, it’s many working class whites whom went along with all of this ‘trickle-down’ economic stuff over the last 40 years!

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    It really sucks. Because the underlying principles of the sovereign citizen movement, that ALL citizens are sovereign as long as they do not violate the rights and freedoms of other citizens, is sound.

    But violence is never the answer and it violates the rights of others…

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Citizens have Civil Rights. And a civil society has to have Civil Rights. But so-called sovereign citizens is somewhere between anarchy and chaos.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        This just shows how utterly ignorant and pathetic and boring your paltry intellect is.

        Even Flowers mentioned the 14th amendment.

        State Citizens are sovereign, as long as they don’t violate the rights of others.

        Federal Citizens have civil rights.

        Violence is never the answer.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          Thanks – I like and respect you too.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Yeah, I regretted my insults after I made them. So, I edited them out. The truth is I don’t know enough about you to make any judgement. I apologize.

            I am attempting to turn over a new leaf.

      • jefe68

        And total craziness.

  • Will Jones

    Las Vegas was a staged hoax, as was Isla Vista, Sandy Hook, the Navy Yard, Boston Bombing, etc.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Yeah … riiiight …

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Could you be any more predictable???????

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          So, you agree with Will Jones?

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            WOW, you actually CAN be more predictable! AMAZING.

          • jefe68

            It’s a fair question. If you agree with this Jones character, well that would be a statement.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            I think SOME of the crises and acts of terrorism in the media COULD BE false flags.

            I think it’s important to keep an open mind about things that are unproven.

            Without proof there is only speculation.

          • jefe68

            Wow, false flags, really?

          • Will Jones
          • mitspanner

            The Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964 was certainly a false flag to draw America into the Vietnam War. A president lied and millions died. Surely this is proof positive that the State is the greatest mass murder of all time.

          • jefe68

            And what does that have to do with todays show and the post claiming that the murders in Las Vegas and other incidents are false flags?

          • mitspanner

            “Wow, false flags, really?” You seemed to dismiss the concept in its entirety. I was just providing a documented case of a false flag.

          • jefe68

            Context. It’s all about the context.

            The Gulf of Tonkin has nothing to do with is being discussed on this show today.

            Most of the people making these “false flag” accusations on this forum, such as the murders in Las Vegas, and Sandy Hook, seem to me to be misguided.
            One even mentioned the Boston marathon bombing as a false flag. If you want to side with nut cases, that’s your prerogative.

            However, it does remove any credibility to any arguments you are now trying to make. You get my drift here bud?

          • mitspanner

            There certainly is a lot of drift these conversations. I was just trying to make the point that there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance abroad in the land. We want to believe the State is a servant of democracy, but so often we find the opposite is true even as the official narrative tries to tell us otherwise. Some people just aren’t buying it and it’s bound to push some unstable folks to tragic actions. My sentiments though, are with those fighting the battle of ideas, whether they’re in the tea party or the ACLU.

          • Will Jones
          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Yes, it’s possible. But, more than likely, the details of the events are the false flags.

            The government sometimes has to “wag the dog” in order to not cause a panic.

            So, they might leave details out, plant other details after the fact, to adjust the story to their agenda, which may or may not be nefarious.

            But there are also real heroes in uniform out there.

            Truth is stranger than fiction. Therefore, keep an open mind.

          • Will Jones

            Americans are sovereign under God alone. Any false elite faction is a violation of our credal civil religion enshrined on the Great Seal of the Covenant.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            I will share a beer with you anytime, as long as you do not espouse violence.

            The moment someone commits a violent act, they are violating the rights of another citizen, and forfeiting their own sovereignty.

            Just my humble opinion. (the truth)

          • Will Jones

            The People repentantly annealed, God’s grace shall see Satan’s Fifth Column Beast now upon us cast down, praise God.

          • Will Jones

            Only Godless morons and satanic traitors don’t want to hang Bush and Cheney for 9/11, his father for killing JFK, and those false Jew Talmuds and papists trying to end our divine right of Individual Sovereignty by disarming and enslaving us by staging all these MKUltra mass-shootings psyops.

          • 1Brett1

            It looks like we have a live one on the forum today…An Alex Jones wannabe?

            When the Rapture comes, wanna go get a beer?

          • jefe68

            Yeah, but we’ll have to be quick as I suspect they will get warm from all that hellfire and damnation.

            This guy sounds like a real nutcase.
            Part of thinks that this might be some kind of wind up. If it’s not, he has some serious mental problems. I sure do hope he’s not a gun owner.

          • jefe68

            What is interesting about this show is how many crazies from both sides of the political spectrum have come out of the woodwork.

  • mitspanner

    If you’re a banker and you launder hundreds of millions of dollars in profits for International drug cartels, and you get caught, you get a slap on the wrist. If you’re at the absolute bottom of the economic pyramid and you get caught with an ounce of coke you get 30 years in one of America’s medieval prisons. If you’re a too big to fail multinational corporation and you make bad Business decisions you get bailed out by the taxpayers. If you’re a taxpayer who puts his every last dime into a business start up that goes bankrupt you lose it all, except of course your burden to pay for the bailout of the Too Big to Fail, Too Big to Jail elites. But never mind the breathtaking militarization of the police, or the acceptance of torture as a tool of government, keep moving along, there’s nothing to see here.

  • Will Jones

    We have only God, America’s NAMED Sovereign, to thank for all Creation and the miracles of Existence and Life.

    All we need do is establish Justice, as the Constitution dictates, and Truth.

    Let’s get on it, Americans!

    Death for Treason – Whig v. tory is God v. Satan, then, now, and forever.

    • hennorama

      Insta-clickety click.

      • Will Jones

        Godless Talmud or papist?

        • Bill98

          “Papist”? “Godless Talmud”? Please tell me that you’re kidding…

          • Will Jones

            Was Our Founder and Prophet “kidding” when he identified their ancient partnership as “an engine for enslaving mankind,” “the real Anti-Christ?” Or do you believe youself smarter than a proven, anointed prophet of God?

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Who was “Our Founder and Prophet”?

          • jefe68

            Apparently not.

      • jefe68

        They need an insanity clause…

  • Will Jones

    Can we remain free when the false-elite faction now controlling Capitol Hill is taught each Saturday morning by their rabbis we’re “sub-human animals” to be “lied to, cheated, robbed, enslaved, and killed, with impunity?”

  • twenty_niner

    This show actually dovetails with yesterday’s show, “Life on Run” that describes the incessant harassment that inner city youth experience at the hands of the police, which probably elicits sympathy from many liberals. Inconsistently, however, liberals would relish more police intrusiveness and harassment for the people they don’t like: gun owners, tea partiers, libertarians, conservatives, etc.

    So once again, it comes down to who’s ox is being gored. Maybe the left and right could agree that the country should avoid devolving into a jack-booted police state with guns blazing in both urban and rural areas.

    • jimino

      So you’re claiming that policies such as “stop and frisk” and indiscriminately confronting and questioning of people on the street, which clearly occur in inner city areas, are also being used to target gun owners, tea partiers, libertarians, conservatives, etc.

      Where is that happening? I’m sure liberals would like to weigh in where it’s occurring,

      • mitspanner

        Different tactics, with the same ends in mind, being employed all over rural America.

        • jimino

          Tell us about instances please.

          • mitspanner

            Maybe you missed Eugene Jarecki’s documentary, The House I Live In, that aired on PBS. About which Roger Ebert says “makes a shattering case against the War on Drugs.” Serving ridiculously long prison sentences are not just urban people of color, but many poor white folks from rural America. They are also subject to the paramilitary tactics of the drug warriors.

            Of course all of this is not really about drugs or terrorism, It’s all about the tyrannical tendencies of the State.

          • jimino

            Further support for my contention that these tactics are deployed against the usual suspects, and not targeting “gun owners, tea partiers, libertarians, conservatives, etc.”

            To the contrary, those groups are the ones supporting the use of such tactics where they actually are being used.

            Except for 29er of course.

          • mitspanner

            If you think that the burgeoning police state can be constrained to attacking only the “usual suspects” then you’re really missing the point. Civil libertarians on the left and right are sounding the alarm.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        I didn’t read the rest of this thread, and I don’t necessarily agree with it, but it COULD be argued that highway checkpoints in border states (no where near the border) are tantamount to “stop and frisk”.

        • mitspanner

          The ACLU has written extensively about the massive border buffer zone which amounts to 1,000,000 square mile Constitution-free zone within the nation’s borders.

      • twenty_niner

        Out of control police are everywhere:

        “Six Officers Charged In Police Pursuit That Ended With 137 Shots Being Fired At Suspects In A Little Over 20 Seconds”

        https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140531/12595127425/six-officers-charged-police-pursuit-that-ended-with-137-shots-being-fired-suspects-little-over-20-seconds.shtml

        Another Bogus Hit From A License Plate Reader Results In Another Citizen Surrounded By Cops With Guns Out

        https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140513/07404127218/another-bogus-hit-license-plate-reader-results-another-citizen-surrounded-cops-with-guns-out.shtml

        An Indiana woman plans to sue the Floyd County Jail in New Albany following her lawyer obtaining a video of police officers forcibly undressing her and locking her up, completely naked, in a cell full of pepper spray for seven hours.

        http://rt.com/usa/165104-police-woman-strip-pepper/

        • jimino

          I definitely am aware of police abuse. My job exposes and informs me of it on an almost daily basis. And it invariably targets inner city residents, out-of-staters (especially Hispanic) traveling on the interstate, and others whom police think of as the main source of traditional criminal activity.

          This is borne out by your examples, all of which are instances of targeting such people with none targeting gun owners, tea partiers, libertarians, conservatives, etc.

          Their ox ain’t being gored. To the contrary, I hear more cheering for the aggressive police tactics from them than anywhere else. You know, “if you don’t have anything to hide, what are you afraid of.”

          • twenty_niner

            “Their ox ain’t being gored.”

            From your side of the fence, their ox is just fine, and vice versa.

          • jimino

            I don’t know why you insist on arguing a point on which you, despite your clear abilities to garner information, have no evidence whatsoever, I would truly be interested in overreach by law enforcement against the groups you identified in the start of this thread. The rest is no surprise. I see it every day.

          • twenty_niner

            I posted links above. Google around if you’re interested.

            “A Connecticut officer with the Branford Police Department has reportedly been placed on extended leave pending the outcome of an internal investigation after he allegedly told a Facebook user he couldn’t wait to “bang down your door and come for your gun.””

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/10/officer-reportedly-tells-citizen-i-give-my-left-n-to-bang-down-your-door-and-come-for-your-gun/

          • jimino

            Did you eve read what you linked? It clearly does not add anything to your position. You should just stop. You don’t even have to admit your original statement was wrong.

          • jmpo’lock

            Exactly, and the Bundy ranch is further proof. Does anyone think OWS would get away with open carrying? How many Tea Party rallies were “dispersed” with pepper spray, beatings, arrests, rubber bullets, flash grenades et al?

            If liberals armed up to stop the Keystone XL, how long do you think it’d be before blood rivers were running?

          • twenty_niner

            Exactly! And how many Tea Party rallies required safety tents for women?

            The safety measure comes amid a terrifying spree of sexual assaults — including an alleged rape — in the Zuccotti Park camp.

            Kitchen worker Tonye Iketubosin, 26, was arrested Wednesday for allegedly groping an 18-year-old woman after offering to help set up her tent. He is also a suspect in a rape at the park.

            The grope victims include Kara Demetropoulos, who told The Post she was fondled in a tent last Saturday night after accepting a man’s offer of a place to sleep.

            http://nypost.com/2011/11/05/zuccotti-protesters-put-up-women-only-tent-to-prevent-sexual-assaults/

  • Will Jones
  • Will Jones
  • Will Jones

    Let’s establish justice for the staged hoaxes we already know have been followed by a chorus of dual-Israelis’ calling for the sovereign People’s being disarmed, eh? Why let their calling us “a mindless herd of cattle” be vindicated?

  • mitspanner

    The journalist Matt Taibbi, formerly Rolling Stone’s political editor,
    has left that publication to join other progressive dissident
    journalists, like Glenn Greenwald, who are trying to cut through the institutional bias that was so dismally in evidence in today’s OnPoint show. There is rampant injustice in American society today and are troubling lack of reporting on the specifics.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    14th amendment.

    State Citizens are sovereign, as long as they don’t violate the rights of others. If they violate the rights of others, or commit violence, even by accident. (such as a traffic accident), in my opinion they forfeit their sovereignty.

    Federal Citizens have civil rights.

    Violence is never the answer. EVER.

    Just my opinion.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      I agree with your last point. Violence breeds more violence.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        It’s possible that there may be a correlation between the rise in domestic terrorism and the rise in police brutality. Although, I have no idea which one begets the other.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          I think police brutality has been around for a very long time, and so has domestic terrorism. The so-called ‘sovereign citizen’ is an outgrowth of reconstruction, and directly related to the KKK.

          So-called Christianity was used to justify slavery, and very often, white supremacy, as well. Police brutality is much more often associated with racism. Strange bedfellows, really.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            While I do disagree with much of the right wing “sovereign citizen” ideology, I truly admire their understanding of “citizen”. It is not “out there”, “on the shelf”, or ONLY for the representatives, who are obligated to serve business interests if they want election funds. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. it is OUR responsibility to look out for the interests of the CITIZEN.
            ALL CITIZENS. Thus, we have a responsibility to see EVERY citizen as an individual, NOT as a member of a group.
            Color does not matter. Class does not matter. All citizens are equally sovereign. That is what Sovereign Citizen means.

            Anyone who says otherwise is suffering from some kind of delusion.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Responsible citizens with equal rights – yes, that is the ideal.

            The piece that this ‘sovereign citizen’ concept gets very wrong is that when we all agree to live in a society together, we are not able to ignore laws or just do things that impinge on other people’s rights. In order to gain the benefits of living in a civil society, we have to accept some limitations, as well.

        • jmpo’lock

          You can add international militarism as well, especially since 9/11, the M.I.C., the security industrial complex, prison complex, privatization etc

      • mitspanner

        The government is the great teacher, said Louis Brandeis the Supreme Court justice. The torturing, drone striking, nuclear bombing, hyper-violent Government.

  • Robin Tedlock

    What are you calling a military grade weapon? A rifle capable of fully automatic fire? Average citizens can’t own them. What people like you don’t understand is that pretty much all guns are the same, i.e. semi-automatics. It doesn’t matter if they look military or look like a hunting rifle. They all will fire as fast as you pull the trigger. A magazine is just a box with a spring in it. How long should the box be? Despite what you might think guns are incredibly simple devices that haven’t changed much in over 100 years.

    • jmpo’lock

      Not quite true. .50 cal power which can penetrate an engine block is relatively (certainly since 1776) new, as are armor piercing, exploding, hollow point mushrooming ammo etc. No civilians had these things 100 years ago. And you also full well know that a semi-automatic can fire at a rate almost as fast as a machine gun in trained hands (way faster than a Gatling gun)
      So, be careful also when you say “people like you” tis so vague, and probably you are ignorant of said persons experience and knowledge

      • Robin Tedlock

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50-90_Sharps The engine block factoid? Who cares, a piston can shoot through an engine block its not as impressive as you think it is. Let me know about all the .50 cal rifle killings and crimes though, I haven’t heard of a $10,000+ rifle being used to hold up gas station or murder someone. And the fact that semi-automatic can fire as fast as you can pull the trigger was my exact point! Almost everything nowadays is a semiautomatic. You are not going to ban all semi-automatics from private ownership. And if you try, then yes, the NRA and all the ‘ammosexuals’ or whatever name you want to call them have every right in the world to say that “The government is coming to take your guns!”

  • Government_Banking_Serf

    Missed the show, but presume you were able to substantiate you claim that there are significant numbers of “anti-government” citizens out there? Anarchists that is, as opposed to those who want a more limited government?

    I think there are more anarchists in the Occupy movement than the class of citizens I imagine the conversation focused on today…..

  • Will Jones

    By definition the sovereign People is “the government.” Simply put a satanic Vatican banker/Fed Scam Rothschild Zionism false Jew Talmud/papist Fifth Column has usurped Isaiah’s foretold, and provable “new Israel,” “Zion,” America.

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      You are making some pretty extraordinary claims. You may want to start citing your sources.

      • hennorama

        Alchemical Reaction — yeah, good luck with that.

        You’ll either get a deluge of questionable citations, or nary a peep. Most likely, the latter.

      • Will Jones

        The Bible’s “Book of Isaiah” lays it out.

    • jimino

      I hope you don’t have a gun.

      • jefe68

        Me too.

        • 1Brett1

          Off his meds AND watched the Ghost Busters sequel continuously for a month solid.

      • Will Jones

        Those whose lives were saved when four armed men did a home invasion on a rental I was working on contracted by an out-of-state landlady feel otherwise, slave/shill.

      • Will Jones

        Those whose lives were saved when four armed men did a home invasion on a
        rental I was working on, contracted by an out-of-state landlady, feel
        otherwise, slave/shill.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    I feel an obligation to point out to the public that there is another form of sovereign citizen, that is unrelated to domestic terrorism and abhors violence. Another option, so to speak.

    The Left-Libertarian Movement. We support individuals rights, sovereign state citizenship, binary and ecological economics, cooperative corporations (as the solution to economic problems) returning control of the national guard to the states as a means to legitimize modest gun safety measures, such as non-networked smart guns for police, and the ability of licensed psychologists and psychiatrists to place a temporary, time-limited ammunition purchasing hold on patients.

    My book is forthcoming.

    • Sy2502

      What’s a Left Libertarian? How is it different from a regular Libertarian?

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        That’s why I’m writing the book. There are videos on Youtube about it.

      • jmpo’lock

        Chomsky is example, also called Social Anarchist

        • Sy2502

          I don’t get how you can believe in private property and be Socialist at the same time.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Cooperative Corporations! Wherein ALL the employees ARE the owners of the company. The CEO has a CEO salary and the janitor has a janitor salary, but there is NEAR equal ownership of stock among all employees.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Sounds great! Like in Mondragon, Inc.

          • jmpo’lock

            You need to read about what Socialism is. It is NOT Communism! Simply put, it is merely working cooperatively in society (yes, with your own stuff, don’t worry!) for the betterment of all people and the commons (publicly shared things, like government)

          • Sy2502

            I know very well what Socialism is. It’s defining characteristic is socialized ownership of the means of production. Which means that my farm or my business aren’t really mine, just kinda sorta mine and also everyone else’s. So again how does that mesh with the Libertarian founding principle of private ownership?

          • jmpo’lock

            No, you don’t really seem to get it. You seem to be falling for reducio ad absurdum. A farm Co-Op is a good example. Individual Farms (with individual owners) form a collective in the sale of their goods, thereby supporting good prices, and sharing in the overall benefits

          • Sy2502

            I get the feeling that you are the one who doesn’t “get” the cognitive dissonance between valuing private property and Socialism. What you are proposing is simply to draw some completely arbitrary line and say “private property is ok here, not ok there”. The most obvious question would then be “why?” and there’s no good reason because as I say the distinction is purely arbitrary.

          • jmpo’lock

            No. That, again, is classic reducio ad absurdum. The examples I gave are all made by either democratic decision, or personal choice.
            i.e. a farmer could perfectly decide to go it alone if they’d like, as they all used to, but with the emergence of the Monsantos of the world, good luck.
            You see, you have to transpose your governing philosophy on current realities, not fictitious books like the Fountainhead.
            The point being, we have living, empirical examples of these modes of governance. And one can see that pure Libertarianism leads to Somalia like outcomes, where Social Democracy leads to Sweden type outcomes…USA is a hybrid of these which we can choose to tweak or not in different directions to pursue the outcomes we would like

          • Sy2502

            Libertarianism didn’t lead to Somalia, what kind of stupid statement is that? Somalia is in the middle of a civil war because different groups want to gain power. Seriously if you are going to make this kind of ignorant and outlandish statement I don’t think you are worth my time.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Are you listening? I just explained it.

          • Sy2502

            You seem to be getting your panties in a bunch for no apparent reason. I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Are you capable of having a civilized conversation?

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            We were having a civil conversation right up until the point where you said, “You seem to be getting your panties in a bunch for no apparent reason.”

            I am probably the person on this forum most equipped to have a civil conversation, and I’m not wearing any panties.

          • Sy2502

            “Are you listening? I just explained it.” Yes that qualifies as bunched up panties.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Unfortunately, you clearly have never SEEN bunched up panties before.

          • Sy2502

            No, my panties don’t get bunched up for something some stranger posted on Internet.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Alright. Let’s try again. Government socialism is only healthy if it is severely limited. There still needs to be incentive to spur innovation, genius, and sweat equity.

            In a Left Libertarian society, private property exists, as long as it is owned by a natural born person. Corporations can only own property if those corporations are cooperatively owned (owned by the employees).

            Corporations that own vast amounts of wealth, through paper trails, that trace back to a single family or few families, does not exist.

            BUT… At least in my plan, cooperative corporations can have no more than 33% of their stock sold on the open market stock exchange. The remaining 67% must be owned by the employees.

            This is my vision.

          • Sy2502

            “private property exists, as long as it is owned by a natural born person.”
            Are the “unnaturally born people”?

            Also if the corporations or cooperatives are created deliberately and freely by a group of people, good for them, nothing is stopping them from doing it now, nor under Libertarian ideology. The point of Socialism is that it is mandated that the means of production not be owned by individuals (if it was voluntary, it would be good old capitalism) Any government that tells you that you can’t own something, even though owning it doesn’t infringe other people’s rights nor harm anyone, by definition doesn’t value private property. If I come to your house and start telling you what of your possessions you can keep and which you need to give up, I am quite obviously not respecting your right to own property.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Corporate Personhood is just one example of a person not naturally born.

            In addition, in a Left-Libertarian society, (not socialist) there are tax benefits for cooperative corporations, and there are binary loans available to start such firms. (Loans that require ONLY an approved business plan and proof of business education NOT collateral OR credit) such loans are provided by a central bank.

            I agree with you 100% that private property rights must be protected. Left-Libertarians support this. We just take issue with governments that are too large, and corporations that are too large and predatory.

            The social safety net in a Left-Libertarian society, beyond a modest and optimized welfare program is the cooperative corporation and the ease of getting a business loan.

          • jimino

            Did the word “socialist ” get edited out of everyone else’s comments? You’re the only one using it.

          • Sy2502

            “Social Anarchism” is actually “Socialist Anarchism”, so yes the subject of Socialism is pertinent to the discussion.

          • jimino

            So is an ice cream “social” OK? If I’m invited to a “social” engagement do I have to look out for having my stuff taken and given away?

          • Sy2502

            Don’t be dense, even you must know that the same word can have different meanings depending on the context.

      • Government_Banking_Serf

        2 things worth reading when thinking about left/right libertarians, anti war stances, economic reality etc.

        Recall Ron Paul is an anti-war figure. More so than the Ds and Rs who brought us Iraq.

        Wall St, Banks, US Foreign Policy:
        http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard66.html

        Chomsky’s Economics:

        http://mises.org/daily/1132

  • 65noname

    toward the end of the show, the m.c. of this show asked one of his so-called experts to discuss what anarachism is about. the dude claimed that anarchists are anti-union, that the haymarket massacre marked the beginning of the anarchism movement and killed cops at the haymarket massacre (in chicago).
    1. anarchists are not anti-union; ever hear of tthe IWW?

    2. the anarchism movement began long before the massacre;

    3. not even the Illinois governor believes that the anarchist defendants killed the cops. as he said, the defendants were victims of “hysteria, packed juries, and a biased judge” and that the state “has never discovered who it was that threw the bomb which killed the policeman, and the evidence does not show any connection whatsoever between the defendants and the man who threw it.”
    and that’s the expert that we’re supposed to rely on when he appears on this show?

  • Sy2502

    I hate to state the obvious, but why are we pointing the finger to 2 white supremacist lunatics when far FAR more cops are killed by, oh I don’t know, gangsters, drug dealers… Seems like pointing at the tree and missing the whole forest here.

    • jmpo’lock

      Because it not “just” cops getting killed man! Sikk Temple, Jewish Museum, Abortion Doctors, civilians, women, minorities…
      Pay attention!

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        … and innocent children, innocent people who somehow scared people with guns, moviegoers, shoppers, etc.

    • hennorama

      Yes!

      Ignore the “2 white supremacist lunatics” who are alleged to have shot a police officer in the head while he was at lunch, in broad daylight, and then allegedly killed another officer, then dropped a swastika and a DTOM flag on them, then pinned a note about “revolution” on them, and who then terrorized a store full of people, killed an armed civilian, barricaded themselves in, then exchanged fire with more even more police officers.

      Yes!

      Ignore them, because there is also another problem elsewhere.

      Yes!

      Ignorance is bliss! Ignore them!

      • Sy2502

        Could you please point at the part of my post where I said we should “ignore” it? Please make sure to quote my exact words where I said that.

        • hennorama

          Sy202 — Thank you for your response.

          Yes! Sarcasm and irony are literally literary devices meant to be taken literally, literally.

          Yes! Exactly! Yes!

          • Sy2502

            Still waiting for the quote. Unless you are willing to admit you pulled it out of your rear and then tried to pass it for something I said.

          • northeaster17

            The implication is clear. We are paying to much attention to these bad gun people. Look a shiny object over here, drug dealers, to make you think of something else. Come on…..

          • Sy2502

            Making it sound like we have an epidemic of white supremacists shooting at cops is in fact a way to take away attention from the greatest danger to a cop’s life, which is from gangsters and drug dealers. In fact “The number of fatalities of U.S. law enforcement officers in 2013 is the lowest in 54 years and the number dying in firearms-related incidents is the lowest since the 1800s”
            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/30/law-enforcement-deaths/4247393/

            While we should give the right amount of attention to this story, claiming there’s some kind of emergency of cop killings by white supremacists is useless fear mongering.

          • northeaster17

            Who said epidemic?

          • Sy2502

            If they are going to track groups, I’d say that’s a fairly big deal.

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 — thank you for your response. Apologies for not getting your complete moniker in my last post. It seems the [5] key on this device is balky.

            Had I:

            A) addressed my sarcastic/ironic comment to you directly, or

            B) written “Sy2502 — you have written that we should Ignore ’2 white supremacist lunatics,’ ”

            I would be happy to respond to your repeated rhetorical questioning. But that’s not what happened.

            In a similar rhetorical spirit,

            “Could you [Sy2502] please point at the part of my post where I [hennorama, wrote that you, Sy2502] said we should “ignore” it? Please make sure to quote my exact words where I [hennorama, wrote what you, Sy2502, imply that I wrote].”

            Sorry that you took my comment as directed solely to you. It wasn’t. As you may not have noticed, when my reply to a post is directed principally to an individual, I use the individual’s moniker in my reply.

            Thanks again for your response, and apologies again for the balky [5].

          • Sy2502

            B) written “Sy2502 — you have written that we should Ignore ’2 white supremacist lunatics,’ ”

            I see that the word “ignore” isn’t in the quotes. Because I didn’t write it. So it’s your personal addition. What makes you think you should add to people’s posts what they never said or posted in the first place?

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 — TYFYR.

            My capitalized [Ignore] is absolutely “within the quotes” above. I have not written that You, Sy 2502 wrote “ignore” in your original post.

            My B) above included a portion of my initial comment, which read, in part:

            Yes!

            Ignore the “2 white supremacist lunatics” who are alleged to have shot a police officer in the head…

            Sheesh.

          • Sy2502

            So the whole idea of ignoring it is yours, not mine. As long as we are clear on this.

          • StilllHere

            You would do well to ignore hennorama.

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 — TYFYR.

            No.

            The word “Ignore” was introduced by me, but “the whole idea of ignoring it” was introduced by you, Sy2502, by implication, via your having written “Seems like pointing at the tree and missing the whole forest here.”

            Not to mention the false equivalence of comparing the highly unusual apparently unprovoked killing of two police officers, combined with the placement of two potent symbols and a written message about “revolution” on their dead bodies, with what is, according to your remarks, what would be considered to be more common and more typical deaths of police in the line of duty (“far FAR more cops are killed by, oh I don’t know, gangsters, drug dealers…”)

          • Sy2502

            If I wanted to introduce the idea of “ignoring” something I would have said it. The fact I didn’t use the word “ignore” should be a dead giveaway. The implication you deduced is wrong. You have been told several times you are wrong, but still you persist. Trust me when I say I know what I meant a lot better than you. Feel free to embarrass yourself in public by stating otherwise. Moreover I wasn’t making any equivalence between the 2, I was stating a fact, which is that cops are not killed, by far, in fact by orders of magnitude, by race supremacists as much as by career criminals. This is a fact, which exists independently of your personal preference.

          • hennorama

            Sy2502 – TYFYR.

            My apologies. I gave you too much credit, as [OnPointComments] was first to introduce the false equivalency concept, a full two hours before you:

            OnPointComments

            How does the number of killings by anti-government activists over the past 2 years stack up against the 1,000+ plus killings in Chicago over the past 2 years?

            You hold the distinction of introducing the “don’t look here, look over there (AKA “Squirrel!”) concept.

            It’s interesting that you claim that “I [Sy2502] was stating a fact …” when your original comment was not a statement but was in fact a question, which included both speculation and uncertainty (emphasis added):

            I hate to state the obvious, but why are we pointing the finger to 2 white supremacist lunatics when far FAR more cops are killed by, oh I don’t know, gangsters, drug dealers… Seems like pointing at the tree and missing the whole forest here.

            In addition, it is merely your conclusion that the suspects in the deaths of the two officers and the civilian are “2 white supremacist lunatics,” and not a statement of fact.

            If it is indeed, as you awkwardly claim,

            a fact, which is that cops are not killed, by far, in fact by orders of magnitude, by race supremacists as much as by career criminals. This is a fact, which exists independently…

            then you could easily demonstrate this “independently” extant “fact.” Please provide such demonstration, as well as a means to prove that anyone and everyone who are alleged to have killed a police officer are not “race supremacists.”

            It’s also interesting to note that you claim “You [hennorama] have been told several times you are wrong…” Really? By whom have I been “told several times [I am] wrong…”? Certainly not by you, as the word “wrong” appears nowhere in your prior replies to [hennorama].

            If you have any time left after your fruitless attempts to prove your claims, perhaps you would explain exactly what you meant, if it wasn’t to imply “Ignore,” when you wrote (Mind the gap)

            I hate to state the obvious, but… Seems like pointing at the tree and missing the whole forest here.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • Sy2502

            First of all I am flattered that every 2 line post of mine gets several chapters of dissertation on your part, complete with painstaking dissection of every word. It’s very flattering, but honestly you should find yourself something better and more productive to do.
            Thank you for mentioning “squirrel”, that was exactly what I meant, with the white supremacists being the squirrel. You of course understood the exact opposite, which isn’t surprising since you have shown several problems with reading comprehension.
            As for my post being a question, I am sure you are aware that a question has a question mark at the end, and I see no question mark at the end of my post. Oh let me guess, you “inferred” it, just like you inferred the “ignore”. Please save yourself time and spare us another 4 chapters of fantastication on why it’s a question even though it isn’t. I wrote it, I know whether it was a question or not. It wasn’t.
            Finally, cop killings make the news, if you don’t follow them that’s your problem not mine. Since you seem to have a lot of free time in your hands, do an internet search for media stories on agents killed, and see how many of those were white supremacists hunting down cops and which weren’t. You should find it enlightening.

    • kenrubenstein

      It’s hardly obvious since police killed in the line of duty are very different from cops assassinated while eating pizza in Wal-Mart.

    • OnPointComments

      http://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2014
      21 officers have been killed in 2014 by gunfire; 30 officers were killed in 2013 by gunfire.

      • Sy2502

        Who was doing the shooting? Where they all white supremacists? Were they mostly white supremacists? Or was the white supremacist an isolated incident?

        • OnPointComments

          As far as I know, only 2 were killed by white supremacists. Given the choice of focusing on the more numerous murders by criminals, or focusing on the relatively rare murders of 2 officers by white supremacists, I think you’ll find that liberals much prefer the latter.

          • Sy2502

            Ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!! Should I point out the repulsiveness of using the death of police agents for this kind of petty political gain or should we just leave it?

          • OnPointComments

            It’s interesting to watch the ideology of liberals on the issue of guns. If the shooter is someone with whom they disagree philosophically, whether it’s white supremacists, the misogynist in California, or conservatives, they rant and rail against the person who did the shooting. If the shooter is someone with whom they agree philosophically, or more commonly if the shooter is a member of the liberals’ protected classes (the poor and minorities, to name two), they rant and rail against the gun, or society, or the drug laws, but not the person who did the shooting. It’s not surprising — liberals almost always employ a double standard.

          • Sy2502

            Very well said.

        • hennorama

          Sy2502 — “I hate to state the obvious, but why are [you and OPC] pointing the finger to [the alleged] white supremacist [aspect of the suspects] when far FAR more cops are [focused on] the … oh I don’t know [anti-government, anti-law enforcement aspect] … Seems like pointing at the [invisible] tree and [also] missing the whole forest here.”

          • Sy2502

            Was there an argument in your post? I couldn’t find one, sorry.

  • jmpo’lock

    I love the way the right has tried to co-opt “V for Vendetta” to their ends. They seem to overlook how/why “V” took out the Alex Jones/Limbaugh type hate talk media guy…for a reason…

    And that he defended the Gay Liberal TV satirist….

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Left-Libertarian Sovereign Citizens Abhor Violence!

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    To follow up on the NRA’s now infamous good-people-with-guns taking out bad-people-with-guns meme:

    Who are the good people with guns in this case, and who are the bad people with guns?

    How did the bad people get their guns? How did the protection thing work out?

    • Steve_in_Vermont

      “How did the protection thing work out”. Simply put, he saw a danger to other people and stepped forward. He could have run away and left others to their fate, but he didn’t. To paraphrase an old saying, “If not me, who? If not now, when”?.

      • Eric

        How many lives did he save?

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        Who is the ‘he’ you are referring to?

        Who was the ‘bad person with a gun’ and who was the ‘good person with a gun’ in this situation in Las Vegas?

  • Steve_in_Vermont

    I’m not going to be critical of the (armed) citizen in Wal Mart who tried to stop these people, at least someone tried to stop them. Think about this for a moment. If these people had decided to kill as many people as possible, before being stopped by the police, what would the body count have been? Easily many dozens of innocent lives would have been lost. We have created a situation where the only response to these killers is an armed law enforcement officer. Until they arrive the killers are free to continue their slaughter. I’m not advocating everyone carry a gun. That’s a personal decision. But in our society today is it any wonder why gun sales are up? That gun laws are being relaxed?

    • Elizabeth_in_RI

      According to some reports the Millers actually told people if they didn’t want to die they should flee, suggesting that they really were focused on killing more police officers (who would of course be responding), so the armed citizen put himself in harms way by making that quite understandable choice particularly in light of all the rhetoric about important guns are for challenging these situations. I won’t bash him for that. But I will question the NRA’s assessment that having more people armed is the only solution – particularly when you start to add in all the unnecessary deaths from accidental shootings (sadly so often by and of children) and incredibly stupid shootings resulting from the easy access to guns (like the retired law enforcement officer in fear for his safety from a box of thrown popcorn, and so many more).

      • Steve_in_Vermont

        Elizabeth, Where the NRA, and others, miss the point (having more people armed) is the fact that many people in our society are simply not appropriate for gun possession. Anyone carrying a gun should be trained in its use and practice regularly. They should also be familiar with the laws concerning gun use. Imagine buying a car, parking it in your driveway, and using it only in an emergency. How safe a driver would you be (assuming you’ve only driven a few times)?. And in any event many people would find they simply cannot shoot another person. I wish I knew the answer but I’m afraid there just isn’t one. We are developing into an even more violent society and incidents like this will only become more frequent.

  • Elizabeth_in_RI

    Why aren’t we using the term “domestic terrorism” more broadly with these groups? How are these so-called sovereign citizen’s any different from the Tali-ban or Boka Horom? Both types believe that they have the “correct” ideas and that those of the duly elected government, other residents and even their friends and neighbors are “wrong” and that they are justified in using violence to over throw those ideas. Congress and Fox News are happy to investigate “liberal attacks on freedom” but where are the calls to investigate these sovereign citizen terrorists?

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      Because not all “Sovereign Citizens” are terrorists. As I said below, “Left-Libertarian” Sovereign Citizens Abhor Violence!!!

  • kenrubenstein

    When so many people are willing not only to kill others they don’t know, but to give their own lives, I think perhaps we need to consider the influence on them of classical terrorists, such as jihadis, who believe that they’re acting with virtue and will be rewarded somehow in the afterlife.

  • bfryer

    What interests me about this discussion is the fact that these “sovereign citizens” are completely uninterested in any authority but “don’t tread on me.” They are paranoid solopsists, unconnected to any understanding of the social fabric, in large part because society has failed them. This is what the devolution of education and the proliferation of guns gets us. As this country’s society continues to unravel, we will see more of these crazies crying ‘revolution.’ It’s not a hopeful picture.

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      Not all “Sovereign Citizens” are terrorists. Only a small minority are. As I said below, “Left-Libertarian” Sovereign Citizens Abhor Violence!!! Nor are we Anti-Government! We simply believe the government exists to serve citizens, not the other way around!

      Saying “sovereign citizens” are terrorists is tantamount to saying ALL muslims are terrorists. It is ignorant and irresponsible.

      • bfryer

        I think labels are dangerous, too.

        • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

          I never said words were dangerous.

          • bfryer

            I didn’t say you said words are dangerous. You clearly like labels. I believe labels are dangerous.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Perhaps you’re right.

          • bfryer

            Bravo, baby. first step to real freedom is to question our labels and thoughts. it’s like religion, right? think of all the violence done in the name of religion. if we believe nothing but that ‘religion’ (or label we attach to ourselves) we miss the bigger picture and do violence to others who don’t share that same label/language.

          • bfryer

            also, the ‘pen is mightier than the sword’ and the hyper-ventilating crazies of the world are using words to everyone’s detriment. Words and labels are high-potency weapons, and that’s why politicians of all stripes use them as such with such success. But they are, in the big picture, just an attempt to describe a worldview that has little or nothing to do with actual reality, for the most part. Flaubert said it best: “Language is a cracked kettle on which we tap out poor rhythms for bears to dance to, while all the while we yearn to move the stars to pity.”

      • bfryer

        agreed that the government has disappointed all of us, left, right and center. This is not new. But if you separated yourself from your movement/ identifying label as a ‘sovereign citizen’ you might be able to un-anchor yourself from this really seriously crazy Cliven-Bundy associated ideology (at least, that is how most of us, and the media, see it) and do something differently right? Alternatively, if you really must attach yourself to a label, how about starting a ‘Left-Libertarians for Non-violence” or better yet, do something like Occupy, since so many of us agree that the system is rigged, etc? I’m not trying to start a fight here, just asking whether your label is serving you or whether a new nomenclature is called for.

        • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

          Sovereign Citizen is a citizen of a nation in which the citizens themselves are the supreme authority. THAT IS WHAT THE TERM MEANS. Others attaching false meaning of “terrorist” to it does not change its ultimate meaning.

          Let’s say you are a centrist. (hypothetically) And there were an extreme group of centrists who believed the government was going too far off-center and they committed terrorism because of their own beliefs.

          You yourself are not a member of that group, but nevertheless, the media starts using the term “centrist” to mean the same as “terrorist”.

          Would you find a new term to represent what you are, just because of a bunch of pathetic, totally moronic idiots???

          Obviously, words have meaning.
          SOVEREIGN:

          belonging to or characteristic of a sovereign or sovereign authority; royal.

          6. Having supreme rank, power, or authority.

          7. supreme; preeminent; indisputable: a sovereign right.

          CITIZEN: a native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection (distinguished from alien ).

          2. an inhabitant of a city or town, especially one entitled to its privileges or franchises.

          3. an inhabitant, or denizen: The deer is a citizen of our woods.

          4. a civilian, as distinguished from a soldier, police officer, etc.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Saying “sovereign citizens” are terrorists is tantamount to saying ALL muslims are terrorists. It is ignorant and irresponsible.

    Someone please point out to me ONE single, solitary instance of a “Left-Libertarian” Sovereign Citizen committing a violent act in the name of their political beliefs???

    IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED. EVER! AND IT NEVER WILL!

    The cornerstone of our beliefs is, “No citizen has the right to violate the rights of any other citizen.” And most extend this same right to non-citizens, as well. if someone commits a violent act, they CAN’T BE one of us.

    The ones who advocate violence as a solution to their political woes SHOULD be locked up.

  • bfryer

    The really disturbing part of this “movement” is the building incitement to “civil war” between what the charming Alex Jones calls “freedom lovers” and the government, liberals, immigrants and other perceived enemies. We’re talking total anarchy here, as caller Pam said. The crazies like Bundy, Jones, etc. are just itching to bring this war on, and want to incite it in any way possible. Watch out.

    • harverdphd

      …not to mention the marxist retreads on this forum who regularly threaten revolution….

      • bfryer

        have you noticed that people on both progressives and many ‘baggers’ agree that the system is rigged against the people? the circle is bending, and people have different views for addressing it, and both use that word ‘revolution’. I’m not on the side of the Cliven Bundys, obviously. But as I keep saying, if we could loosen ourselves from our labels, we might see more clearly in agreement. We’re all pissed off at Wall St. etc.

        • harverdphd

          I am offended by the term “baggers”…your hate speech gives you away.

          • bfryer

            Okay, Tea Baggers, the nomenclature they attach to themselves. See other posts re: labeling.

          • bfryer

            that was not hate speech, Mr. Harverd.

          • bfryer

            what is your preferred term?

          • bfryer

            and you missed my point. How about this? “have you noticed that people on both progressives and many on the right wing agree that the system is rigged against the people? the circle is bending, and people have different views for addressing it, and both use that word ‘revolution’. I’m not on the side of the Cliven Bundys, obviously. But as I keep saying, if we could loosen ourselves from our labels, we might see more clearly in agreement. We’re all pissed off at Wall St., governmental incompetence, etc?”Better, Mr. Herverd?

        • harverdphd

          ..and I’m not pissed at Wall Street -

          • bfryer

            who are you pissed at?

      • jefe68

        Marxist retreads, that’s hilarious.
        Nice try, but all the noise and shootings related to anti-government rhetoric are perpetrated right wing extremist.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Pay Police MORE and require a bachelor’s degree to become a cop!!!

    • bfryer

      pay everyone more and require better education of everyone. And make sure everyone has a living wage. Duh.

    • jimino

      Where I live police are well paid, even after they retire at the height of their skills in their late 40′s, get paid by us not to work, then go on to another job in the out-of-control security economy,

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      I know that several police officers in my town have their Masters degrees.

  • red_donn

    “Cold blooded killers” are a lot less likely to be deterred by a death penalty, which has, to my knowledge, no demonstrable effect as a deterrent for violent criminals.

    Now, if we slapped down a mandatory death penalty on major financial fraud crimes, and subjected a couple of CEO’s to that, I think we might see a real shift in parts of the US culture. A slum-raised child, growing up in poverty and violence, takes a threat like the death penalty in stride when compared to a rich, well-fed banker.

    • OnPointComments

      There has never been a documented case of a cold blooded killer, executed under the death penalty, committing another murder.

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        A tautology. Wonderful.

        We have had about 4% of the people *executed* who were innocent.

        Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

      • red_donn

        Punishment as deterrent is measured by effects on the larger population: does crime in general go down given a certain punishment? A single prisoner could be slapped in solitary 23 hours a day and achieve roughly the same effect.
        I’m not even an absolutist against the death penalty, but I understand it for what it is – an act of revenge rather than a preventative crime measure.

        • OnPointComments

          I understand it for what it is – an act of justice for a heinous offense.

          • red_donn

            Revenge – exacting a punishment in return for suffering inflicted.

            Justice originally was simply societally mediated revenge, though now it has an increasing focus on the rights or previous suffering of the inflictor. In the case of the death penalty, we are looking at the old heart of this matter since no serious pretense of societal benefits beyond vengeance for victims is present. I am not squeamish on this score and have no need to cloak the act in a looser, inherently good term. I prefer to face the act head on, including when I support it.

  • StilllHere

    Drone attacks, NSA spying, IRS attacks, police brutality, taxation without representation, rising deficits, deflation of the dollar’s value by the Fed …

    Nothing wrong here, move along.

  • X Y & Z

    The vast majority of gun owners and American patriots are honest, law-abiding citizens.

    It’s unfortunate that the left is using this tragedy to portray gun owners and patriots as being part of some dangerous mob that the nation should be fearful of.

    The individuals that Americans should fearful of are the five Taliban terrorists that Obama illegally freed, who had been captured on the battlefield trying to kill US soldiers. At least one of whom has stated that he plans to resume his fight against America.

    • Eliza_Bee

      The combination of zealotry and gun worship right here on American soil scares me more than the Taliban.

      I am close to a couple of people with this profile (extreme pro gun rights, very down on our government). Both have told me that violence could be necessary. These are average citizen types, 40′s to earlly 50′s in age, employed, homeowners, never been arrested. Both are consumers of right-wing media.

      • Carla

        Consumers of right wing media should be incarcerated. Beware. Stick with Tom Leftbrook

        • Eliza_Bee

          Carla, you’ve got me wrong. I’m a strong believer in freedom of speech. But I also think we must take seriously the fact that infotainers are out there inciting violence, and they have a powerful influence over people who are armed and potentially dangerous.

          To ignore this would be every bit as negligent as Bush ignoring the reports of impending Al Queda attack on the US.

        • jimino

          That is, of course a ridiculous straw man proposition that nobody has advanced. But without made up enemies to smote or imagined positions to rebut, the right would have nothing logical to say.

    • hennorama

      X Y & Z — Cowardly Lyin’ again?

      Repeating in part from a challenge to you issued yesterday:

      please demonstrate the validity of the following words, all of which you wrote:

      “5 Taliban terrorists”
      “illegally”
      “freed”
      “captured on the battlefield trying to kill US soldiers”

      as well as your new one:

      “At least one of whom has stated that he plans to resume his fight against America.”

      Put up or shut up, Cowardly Lyin’.

      • Carla

        Oh Henny, you are such a nit-pecker. Lighten up. Can’t take a difference of opinion?

        • JS

          a “difference of opinion” and erroneous “facts” are two very different things, to wit:

          Saying “I think Obama made a mistake in letting the 5 Taliban members go” is a difference in opinion.

        • hennorama

          Carla — thank you for your response.

          Were this a simple difference of opinion, it would be a different matter. But that’s not what’s at play here. The entity known as [X Y & Z] makes unsupported and unsupportable claims, then repeats them seemingly ad infinitum.

          Admittedly, it’s a quixotic undertaking to challenge these unsupported claims, but in my view, such claims repeated over and over and over tend to become part of the zeitgeist, and once there, are practically impossible to dislodge.

          In this instance, the only undisputed terms are “5″ and “Taliban,” and the claim that these 5 men “had been captured on the battlefield trying to kill US soldiers,” has been made up out of whole cloth.

          Added to the above, this entity has made false claims about my personal views, and has failed to respond to multiple challenges to these false claims. Where I’m from, and everywhere I have ever been, this is described as both Cowardly and Lyin’.

          Thanks again for your response.

      • FrankensteinDragon

        a drop in the bucket. You dont think our illegal terrorizing wars in iraq and Afghanistan and around th eworld create terrorists. you are out of your mind and responsible becuse you support it and vote for those who do. A vote for a republican or tea party nut is a vote for war and murder and torture and genocide and terror. A fact. If you are against terrorism, don’t make it. break it. vote compassion. vote reconciliation. vote humanity. vote earth. vote green.

        • hennorama

          FrankensteinDragon — thank you for your response.

          I have no idea how it relates to my comment, however.

      • X Y & Z

        Keep acting like an imbecile, you’ve worked hard to earn that reputation.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      NO one on this show portrayed gun owners as nuts or put you in the same category as the “sovereign citizens”. Knee-jerk reactions are not required here.

      Tom has never sided with anti-gun movements. Tom is always center–shameful so. Nothing about this show is on the left.

      I wish he would come out against guns and all the gun nuts. But that would mean he was against most of red-wing America. That would lose ratings. The facts are on the ground. One can be against government or fascism or this corporate government system–but one doesn’t always pick up a gun to solve ones problems–but gun nuts do. gun owners do too. I think that makes them gun nuts.

    • TFRX

      You forgot drones.

  • mozartman

    A mandatory end to the stupid war on drugs would solve a lot of problems. if somebody wants to kill him/herself with drugs, that’s their problem. They can do it legally with tobacco and alcohol already, and they do so by the hundreds of thousands a year. Society gets some tax revenue in return and hundreds of thousands of legal jobs. So if a few more thousand want to die from heroin or whatever, that’s fine with me. End the war on drugs and a lot of the violence would go away. Rarely do i hear that people shoot each other over a bottle of whiskey or some smokes. They just walk to a store and buy it. A mandatory death penalty for cop killers, yes.

  • Carla

    Oooh, Tom is going to discuss the violent murderous “anti-government” movement now. Does he think that includes all Republicans? Can’t wait for another session of Off Center with Tom Leftbook

    • FrankensteinDragon

      Please, tom isn’t left. If you think so you are extremely extremely right. He has never–NEVER–supported my progressive and left wing politics so get down off the horse and read a few books so you might begin to understand the world. Nothing more obnoxious than people who think they know it all and know nothing.

  • Carla

    Oh my gosh, you really think that half the country should not be allowed to express their opinions? Inside Every Liberal is a Totalitarian Screaming to Get Out.

  • BlueNH

    Alex Jones ought to be arrested, tried and convicted of inciting violence against our government. He knows exactly what he is doing…….inciting ignorant people to arm themselves and act violent.

    The NRA is at fault, and every politician who received funding from the NRA.

    • JS

      I wonder if he is a true believer, or playing a role to make money?

      • FrankensteinDragon

        That is what mainstream media does.

        • JS

          Yes, I was going to mention Rush, Matthews, Hannity, Levine, Maddow, etc.

    • mitspanner

      He sure does sound a lot like the founding fathers though.

      • FrankensteinDragon

        yep. And commentators on this show dismissed his plight as lunacy while failing to recognize it is the same argument as the founders. A commenter said and the guest confirmed that alex jones and his ilk have no legitimacy and therefore cant take the law into their own hands–but isn’t that exactly what the founding fathers did–they had no right either, no legitimate authority–in fact Britain said as much. they were terrorists. and they did it for the 1%–just like tea party disciples.

        the logic of NPR and its guests falls on its face. its childish and wrong.

        Moreover, they fail to recognize that the feelings of these sovereign citizens is widespread but manifests in different values and ideologies. But all share a core understanding–the government is a fraud and democracy is a lie in this country.

        Like egypt, Syria, Libya, Ukraine, the Balkans–we all share a similar disconent but cling to diverse, overlapping, and complicated value systems. A revolution will be a bloody civil war of multiple factions. So once again American fascists resort to labeling everyone with the same denigrating slanders–terrorists. Because all oppose them. Because they are not of the people or for the people or by the people. And corporations are not people!

        • mitspanner

          Excellent post! I hope you’re wrong about one thing though. I hope the United States goes the way of the Soviet Union. Out with a whimper and not a bang.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      so where does it stop? I think alex jones is misguided but he is right about one thing–the government is a fraud. By arresting him, you make him a truthsayer. you fulfill his ideology. and you make him a martyr.

  • Carla

    So glad our police force is not a federal operation. That’s what led to Nazism. Thank God police is local.
    Don’t agree at all with caller who claims police mistreat citizens

    • FrankensteinDragon

      Then you are extremely naive, in denial, ignorant, or a police. I suggest you do a little research and pay attention to all the police murders in this country. Black people count too you know. Um and yes, with law enforcement in my family I can tell you it is the very definition of corruption, violence and racism. and its been militarized.

      • Carla

        I didn’t agree with the caller, but didn’t mean to imply I think police never mistreat citizens.

    • TFRX

      “Don’t agree at all with caller who claims police mistreat citizens.”

      Lemme guess: You’re white.

      • Carla

        This is interesting and yes, I agree, if I were not white I think I would indeed think differently. So yes, you make a good point. This past Memorial Day weekend I was in DC. We were in Georgetown on Saturday morning. There was some new Nike shoe coming out Saturday and a line of mostly young, mostly male mostly non-white customers was snaking around the Nike store, waiting for it to open in the hopes of getting the new shoe. They were totally peaceful, absolutely in their rights, not doing anything wrong. A young black female Nike employee was keeping them in order. But then the police showed up and I thought the police were sort of over-reacting. They were telling these peaceful decent men to keep in line, keep up against the wall, just trying to make it clear who was in charge. I thought, if I were one of those men, I would not be happy with the way the police treat me, I am not doing anything wrong; I am a NIke customer. Now it was very subtle and I’m sure nothing went wrong in the end, but from the way I saw it, it was like the police – black and white they were – were treating them as guilty til proven innocent because of their race. It would have infuriated me if I had been one of those men, and yet they have to obey the police. From what I saw they all acted in an exemplary way (there were dozens and dozens in the line) so good for them. And I hope they got the new Nike shoes they wanted.

    • 8o88y

      I think Carla makes a good point about the importance of local law enforcement. There are some good cops and some bad ones, and there are some local forces that have a lousy corporate culture, and others that maintain higher standards. Having local police forces might hinder standardization, but it also serves as a check against the entirety of law enforcement becoming corrupt.

      • jefe68

        Such as these local police:

        • 8o88y

          How is that one picture relevant? If you had pictures of all local police behaving badly, or even most, they would be relevant. The point Carla and I were making was that decentralization makes it harder for central government to corrupt all of its police forces from the top down.

          • jefe68

            My posting of this iconic photo is to point to how local police forces can be corrupt, and in the case of the South extremely racist. They used their power to the very thing you think a centralized police force would do. It took the a Federal police force, the FBI, to put some of these criminals away.

            Funny how you mention relevance, and yet agree with Carla’s absurd notion about the rise of the nazis to make your point. By the way the nazis regime had their own police, it was called the gestapo.

            Any police force can be corrupted and if you think a decentralized one is better, you are very much mistaken.

          • 8o88y

            A reading comprehension course might be in order for your future.

          • jefe68

            Gee, that’s funny I was thinking the same about you. You just don’t get it do you.
            Read some history pal.
            If you and Carla think that a decentralized police force in the Weimar Republic would have prevented the rise of the nazi party you are very much mistaken.

    • anne sweeney

      NO, its’ not local, DHS is Federal and in every local community. I was assaulted and told by the police
      that I can do nothing, no Mace, no defenses, just
      give the Perps my handbag, lay on my back, spread my legs and let them have their way with me. Oh, then they said and hope that they do not kill me, so maybe I’m suppose to pretend that I am enjoying it ? WTF !
      Yeah, Women have come a long way baby. WBUR and WGBH just got their last dime from me ! Go, FO

    • jefe68

      Where to begin. First off Germany was a monarchy up to 1918 and the empire dates back to 1871. The police, a conservative group to begin with, took their marching orders from the crown. The Weimar Republic only lasted for 12 years. People seem to think Germany was some bastion of democracy, it was anything buy.

      The police transitioned very easily into the new nazi state.
      Your comment is lacking in any knowledge of the culture and history of Germany between the wars and before.

      http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005465

      • Carla

        Exactly, the police transitioned so easily to Nazism because they were nationalized, not local!

        • jefe68

          Did you read the article?
          I hope you are aware that local police in this country carried out Jim Crow laws for decades.

          In 1964 the Neshoba County’s Sheriff Lawrence A. Rainey, and members of the Philadelphia Police Department of Philadelphia, Mississippi were all charged conspiracy in the murders of three civil rights workers (ames Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner).

  • Carla

    Good closing comments from Flowers

    • RobertLongView

      Block out the “bad” news, eh. Does Tiananmen Square China come to mind!

      • Carla

        No, what he said about better monitoring the internet and not publishing the names of such killers. But the media would never be so disciplined.

  • FrankensteinDragon

    I think it it unfair to paint all left and right of center as extremists as the guest did here. My impression from this show–the overll sentiment is that anyone disasistified with the fascist goverment–not a democratic government is somehow a crazy, anyone that questions the legitimacy of it. Well, much of what these so-called “soveriegn” people are sayig is true in large part. But much of what they believe (at least teh ones highlighted here) is eerily similar to tea party ideology–and wel–red states throughout the south. The government is a coporate aristocracy. it is activley destroying all your rights. You pretty much have non but i dont think it is out get us–aas long as you shut up, sit down, play with your ipad and follow sensless pop stars ans watch menaingless badly written sitcoms you are a good citizen. Truly challange th esystem and you get labelled a wacko form waco. Democracy is dead. God is a fraud. Religions nutters are nits. and gun nuts are nuts too–they’re like trail mix.

    A direct democracy would be a kind of sovereign citizen movement but i dont think they understand this or its potential. A direct democracy must have a constitution of earth first laws. Listening to this puerile spining propaganda is wearisome. Glen beck and his teabags are twisted but its true–this is an easy way to label all dissidents s terrorists. We’ve seen this coming for a long time. Son in effect the fascists will make the beliefs of these extreme sovereign citizens a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    where does it end? Anyone who challenges authority or criticism police will be considered terrorists.

    It makes more sense to ask why it is they are saying what they are saying and address these very real problems. There is no compassion in american society. I.e. instead criminalizing migrant children and incarcerating all blacks and minorities and impoverished drug dealers–we should help them and fix the problems so that the problems dont exist. Instead, we beat our children while telling them never to hit people and will murder millions while proclaiming murder is bad and wrong but not when we do it.

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  • gossipy

    FrankensteinDragon is exactly correct, that just because an individual doesn’t agree with the fascism, that individual is wrong. I am losing patience with government in general, and especially the far left. I do not believe that just because something is good for one, it is good for all. Every citizen, regardless of what they think, feel and believe in, should be concerned that our government is taking our rights away, regardless of what those rights are. I don’t need to go into a long history of why and how those rights got there. There are there to protect our freedom.

    • FrankensteinDragon

      You say I am exactly right (correct), but I am probably on the far left. You see, right and left–we share the same basic values–but we are manipulated by politicians and crooks–to keep us divided and believing we dont share many of the same values. What they are most afraid of is that right and left–the underclass sees the true enemy–and we unite.

      My thing is if we all have rights, then we dont have the right to impinge on those rights–i.e. clean air and water. And that requires industrial/financial regulation. What we have now is money makes right. If we are all to be free, we must not allow some people to start the race near the finish line while the rest of us are deprived water along the way.

  • Will Jones

    In accordance with the Deistic Whiggism and Smithian Capitalism upon which American Exceptionalism’s credal civil religion was founded by the prophet Thomas Jefferson – expressed in the three tenets yet enshrined on The Great Seal of the Covenant of the People with the Creator of the universe, God Almighty, our named Sovereign – enfranchised Americans have the divine right of Individual Sovereignty.

    Only usurping satanic traitors and Godless morons say otherwise, witting or unwitting agents of the Entity whig Mr. Jefferson termed “the real Anti-Christ,” “engine for enslaving mankind” whose minions for thousands of years were, in turn: “Christ killers,” impaling tens of thousands of Christs for twice denying Caesar was the Creator (viz. “sedition” under codified Roman law); managers and operators of “the Wall Street of slavery,” at Rome for over 2,000 years on behalf of the same “Black Aristocracy,” descended of Caesars and Popes, yet living in the same castles, on the same hills of Europe now serviced by the largest cash-flow in history and their bankers Rothschilds’ and Rockefellers’ “efforts” and “intermediaries” around the world.

    These include: the unconstitutional Fed Scam JFK ended; assassins and hirelings ensconced on Capitol Hill, with their logo affixed to the front wall of the U.S. House, the Fasces, espousing the disarming of the sovereign People; condoning or ordering the assassinations of our leaders by the Roman Catholic CIA and FBI; sending us to false war for global Fascism’s slave aristocracy; sending manufacturing overseas; promoting and protecting illegal immigration by pliant, conformed Hispanic Roman Catholics in obedience to the Roman Catholic Church’s openly published satanic stratagem, the “National Pastoral Plan for Hispanic Ministry,” to amass an organized army for invasion and conquest of the vestiges of Isaiah’s actual prophesied “Zion,” America.

    Finding impalements for terrorization of the People in service to Satan’s ruling false-elite no longer effective, the same 9/11-committing echelon of pedophile homosexual false Jew Talmuds and papists are now staging the shooting and bombing psyops all can recognize at Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, Isla Vista, Aurora/Batman, and Boston, etc.

    God’s grace be upon the awakened and repentant American People, that in holiness and righteousness we turn again as “E Pluribus Unum” (Viz. Isa. 2:2) to our named Sovereign, “Annuit Coeptis,” that as One we again submit only to Truth and Justice in Reason and Honor to see our New Secular Order of Individual Sovereignty (“Novus Ordo Seclorum”) again supplant the spurious, satanic “divine right” of the Old Sectarian Order (Viz. “Ancien Regime”) of King and Pope.

    One serves God alone (Viz. “Theory of Moral Sentiments,” Adam Smith) or one is a slave to Satan. There is no “in-between.”

    God save America and the El-ectorate, the American People, and Isaiah’s foretold “righteous remnant,” the true “Jews” we Black and White Gentiles are ordained to “provide shelter” here in the only true and prophesied “Israel,” not the false Jew Talmuds whose rabbis preach during “worship” services that all not of their cult psychosis are “goyim,” “a mindless herd of cattle” to be “lied to, cheated, robbed, enslaved, and killed, with impunity” for we are “sub-human animals.”

    Note the politicians’ names in chorus calling for the end of Americans’ ownership of semi-automatic weapons after their proven hoax at Sandy Hook: Schumer, Bloomberg, Feinstein, Boxer. How many others’ claiming dual-citizenship to gain access to their False Zion “rathole” should the People cease to be cowed or amused by their satanic gaslighting?

    Read the prophet Mr. Jefferson’s writings and the only Bible he acknowledged – the Hebrew Bible, particularly the prophet of “Zion,” the “new Israel,” and try to be worthy of the name American, and of God, the Creator of the universe.

    • jefe68

      It’s OK… drink your milk, have a cookie and take a pill and lie down. You’ll feel better in a few days.

      • TFRX

        Milk, cookie, and pill? In that exact order?

        • jefe68

          Oh wait, warm milk, cookie, pill.

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      WOW! .

  • BDSpin

    Detective Flowers got to the heart of the matter: too many people are isolated with the internet, living in an echo chamber of crazy ideology that encourages them to act out their pathologies. No real, face-to-face relationships with neighbors and others who might have a different viewpoint.
    Real, neighborly relationships temper extreme ideological views, because such relationships encourage us to compromise, fit in, and see another’s side of things.
    My own opinion: thanks to the internet, there’s a good chance that nutty extremists on the left and right will find each other and unite in their beloved violence. The only solution is cultural…start showing young people that family, neighbors, and real, face-to-face relationships are what really matter.

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      Great comment BD – you’re right on.

      I’ll take it a step further and suggest that when friends, acquaintances, neighbors say outrageous, extremist, even reactionary things, we need to speak up and tell them they are out of line.

      The very people who fling this nonsense about are the very ones who are apt to interpret our silence as agreement – or absent a clear rebuttal, our thinking somehow aligns with theirs.

      Our communities, our society operates within a fabric of mutual respect and decency free of prejudice or malice. But if the center cannot hold these necessities in place, we’re headed for big trouble not far down the road.

  • Zack Smith

    This terrorism is clearly blowback in response to the growth of the police-state and police misconduct. Just as with 9/11 – we should attempt to understand the motivations for these terrorists. Al Queda cited retaliation against our military presence and bombing Iraq through the 90s as justification for I did a simple google search and found several websites tracking police misconduct and militarization – http://www.policemisconduct.net/ http://www.policestateusa.com/ and http://www.salon.com/2014/03/28/4_shocking_examples_of_police_militarization_in_americas_small_towns_partner/

    • Zack Smith

      Another thought. By far the bigger threat to law enforcement is the counterproductive War on Drugs and heart attacks. http://www.polc.org/2013/12/heart-attacks-among-top-causes-of-officer-deaths/ . We cannot control what officers eat, but we can abolish our absurd anti-drug laws that turn the police into storm troopers raiding peaceful users and dealers or catches police in the crossfire of gang warfare.

      • Mandy Leetch

        Thank you, Zach, this is the conversation that needs to be happening. The Millers obviously felt hopeless in the face of an increasingly totalitarian society. There are many many people who share some of the Miller’s views… Occupiers, tea partiers, cop blockers… I’m seeing a lot of mud slinging to distance them from various groups and ideologies (is there evidence they were white supremacists? Do people know that this “felon” was merely selling pot?) and no one is discussing the systemic injustice that drives people to this level of pain and desperation. As near as I can tell they represent the growing population of awakened but increasingly hopeless and oppressed American people… And I feel a little nervous to even say as much- If I don’t feel like it’s safe to make a comment to that effect on the public internet, are our freedoms really free? One thing is for certain- if we don’t address the root cause, there will be many many more incidents like this. The revolution is coming one way or another, and if we don’t work to change things peacefully, then things will be changed by violence.

        • Zack Smith

          I don’t know whether a “revolution” is coming, much as I would like to see a reverse in the trend of increased police militarization and totalitarian behavior. Americans are easily distracted by wedge issues.

  • anne sweeney

    When we become a Police State, Expect the Citizens who are Getting raped, robed and assaulted, to push back. Tom Ashbrook of WBUR would rather I give in, lay on my back and Spread my legs, rather than try and defend myself with illegal Mace in Massachusetts ?

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      Wow! Sounds like you need help.

    • jefe68

      Um, really? That’s how you broach the subject?

  • Old Matt

    Dissolving these American Taliban is probably the best use of our nation’s resources at the moment.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BLtuyBP9bvM/TTnXVXjJAZI/AAAAAAAAAtM/ab-ArdAICHk/s1600/shovel+ready.PNG

  • Will Jones

    Wake up: the Las Vegas “shooting,” like Sandy Hook, Aurora, Isla Vista, etc., was an MKUltra hoax staged by the same satanic Rothschild/Rockefeller pedophile false Jew Talmud/papist faction all know committed 9/11 and killed John and Martin.

  • NrthOfTheBorder

    It’s unfortunate a topic like this brings ‘em all out the woodwork and the anti-gov’t types trot out their stuff on the commons.

    Strange, I go about my life as I always have and never felt a need to carry or own a firearm. I’ve never felt threatened by neighbors, the police or big government.

    So what gives here folks, do we live in the same country or what?

  • Will Jones

    Anonymous papist and Talmud slaves, pedophiles and perverts endorse the Fifth Column of the Risen Babylon’s Fascism today just as they have for thousands of years since their satanic cult psychosis endorsed the “fabric of society” maintained through the terrorization of the masses by the impalement (viz. “crucifixion”) of tens of thousands under codified Roman law of those twice convicted of denying Caesar (or now the unpunished JFK-assassinating, 9/11-committing ruling false-elite) was the Creator of the universe (viz. “sedition”).

    God is not mocked.

    Death for Treason

    • TFRX

      You’ve committed the worst sin of doomsdayers: You’re boring. Nobody’s listening to you any more.

      • Will Jones

        Talmud or papist, slave/shill?

        • hennorama

          Looney, Tooney, or Marooney?

          • jefe68

            He’s a flat foot Marooney, Looney Tooney…

            I can hear Slim Gillard sing this little ditty.

  • Kevin Burber

    Is this real? If it is, it seems to be in rural areas and maybe the Southeast US. Does anyone know if this is accurate…because unless I am really missing something, I don’t see this in Upstate NY.

    Also, there was not more than a cursory mention of possible mental health issues. I am sure some of the comments check more than a few of the boxes on a psych eval. Are there any Psychiatrists or mental health professionals out there who would care to comment?

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