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Misogyny And Murder: Unpacking A Killing In California

With guest host John Donvan

A vicious, deadly rampage spurs a new look at misogyny and why it matters.

People gather at a park for a candlelight vigil to honor the victims of Friday night's mass shooting on Saturday, May 24, 2014, in Isla Vista, Calif. Sheriff's officials said Elliot Rodger, 22, went on a rampage near the University of California, Santa Barbara, stabbing three people to death at his apartment before shooting and killing three more in a crime spree through a nearby neighborhood. (AP)

People gather at a park for a candlelight vigil to honor the victims of Friday night’s mass shooting on Saturday, May 24, 2014, in Isla Vista, Calif. Sheriff’s officials said Elliot Rodger, 22, went on a rampage near the University of California, Santa Barbara, stabbing three people to death at his apartment before shooting and killing three more in a crime spree through a nearby neighborhood. (AP)

What’s in a killer’s heart? We know in the case of last Friday’s Santa Barbara massacre. Because the killer wrote about it at length. He despised women. His unrequited desire turned into a furious hatred. And a plan to kill. A plan he carried out. An overwhelming response followed. A Twitter flood – the #yesallwomen hashtag – women sharing their own stories. Concerns that hatred, entitlement, towards women is woven widely into our culture. Not creating killers necessarily, but haters. Is this true? Where’s the line? And what’s to be done? This hour, On Point: Misogyny. Assessing the damage.

– John Donvan

Guests

Soraya Chemaly, activist and writer. Her work has appeared in the Huffington Post, Salon, the Guardian, CNN and in other publications. (@schemaly)

David Futrelle, freelance writer who blogs at “We Hunted the Mammoth,” a site that tracks the “Men’s Rights” movement online. (@DavidFutrelle)

Dr. Robert Heasleyprofessor of sociology at the Indiana University of Pennsylvania. Former president of the American Men’s Studies Association.

From The Reading List

Slate: The Pick-Up Artist Community’s Predictable, Horrible Response to a Mass Murder – “I do not blame the Pick-Up Artist community (or its somehow even more deeply tortured counterpart, the Anti-Pick-Up-Artist community) for the deaths of seven people. The man who committed this horrific crime is responsible for this heinous act. But I was interested to see how these groups are reacting to the news. It is disturbing, if not surprising, that they are using these murders to reinforce their hatred of women and “Beta” men, and to cement their own status at the top of the pyramid.”

The Guardian: Elliot Rodger’s California shooting spree: further proof that misogyny kills — “Rodger was reportedly involved with the online men’s rights movement: allegedly active on one forum and said to have been following severalmen’s rights channels on YouTube. The language Rodger used in his videos against women – like referring to himself as an “alpha male” – is common rhetoric in such circles. These communities are so virulently misogynist that the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that tracks hate groups, has beenwatching their movements for years.”

Washington Post: In covering Elliot Rodger, writers aren’t shy about blaming misogyny and the groups that perpetuate it — “people have embraced the term ‘misogyny’ to describe Rodger’s online screeds against women, and they’ve been more receptive to treating Friday’s killings as a hate crime, the way McDevitt suggests. Sunday night, Gawker’s Jordan Sargeantnoticed that Rap Genius co-founder Mahbod Moghadam posted incendiary annotations to Rodger’s 141-page manifesto. The manifesto had been uploaded to News Genius, Rap Genius’s sister site which aims to annotate and explain the news. Moghadam said Rodger’s manifesto was ‘beautifully written.’”

The “When Women Refuse” Tumblr

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  • Seth Miller

    I agree that misogyny and masculinity have a place in the discussion about this tragedy, but I think it is misguided to start there. The perspectives in the articles listed make it seem as though every male wondering around the streets looking for a partner is somehow a helpless victim to an evil, plotting world around him in which once he gets rejected he will simply go out and cause violence. That is certainly not who I am nor is it who the men I am closest to are.

    Can we focus on the real causes of this?

    1) A man who was diagnosed as mentally ill for his entire life was allowed to buy guns.
    2) Police who were called to his house by the people who knew him best dismissed those calls because he “seemed normal.”
    3) Even if police had seen abnormal behavior, the room for admitting people for 72 hour holds in Santa Barbara county it so limited due to lack of funding that authorities probably wouldn’t have been able to find a place for him anyway.
    4) Even if he did have Aspergers syndrome, as his mother says, funding doesn’t exist to support these people in CA like it does for other people on the autism spectrum (at least in the Tri-Counties Regional Center area).

    My point is: It is far too easy to obtain a gun in this country

    And services for people with mental illness and developmental disabilities are deplorably underfunded.

    If you want to place blame, point to causes, etc. – there they are. Without misogyny these tragedies would still happen.

    • Jon

      who cares misogyny as long as he didn’t go out shooting people? you can never control the mind but can control the guns. it’s the human right of owning guns religion that kills over and over.

      • HonestDebate1

        I maintain that shaping our culture is more possible than controlling guns.

        • Jon

          teach me how to “shape culture”?

          • HonestDebate1

            One way is to shun instead of celebrate misogynistic music by publicly embracing rappers like Jay-Z. Or maybe victims of serial abusers of women should stand up and quit being victims instead of standing by their man for political gain…. or we could ban twerking.

            How do you control 300 million guns?

          • Jon

            you’re banning human right to speak, harmless compared with guns?

            control guns – all those nations did it. why not the US so exceptional?

          • HonestDebate1

            I didn’t say anything about banning squat other than twerking.

          • Jon

            what’s the difference? it’s all about controlling?

          • HonestDebate1

            I think there is a big difference between shunning a genre of music and banning the right to speak.

            This thread is drifting from my point which was it’s impossible to control 300 million guns.

          • Jon

            there is no difference between 1 and 300 billion guns – it’s a matter of philosophy.

          • HonestDebate1

            I think we could control one gun.

          • Jon

            it’s a matter of constitutional rights not about numbers

          • John Cedar

            You need to use the unabridged librul to Engrish translator: Control guns = banning them.

            Guess the NRA was right all along.

          • HonestDebate1

            Is there an app for that?

          • AnneDH

            1- Shunning any group, whatever the reason, will only drive the members further towards feeling alienated from the whole, adding a greater possibility towards lethal backlash.

            2- How does one get victims of serial abusers to ‘stand up and quit being victims’? Got to find them all first, and each has an individual story. I don’t understand the reference to political gain.

            3- Ban twerking? People always find a way to engage in banned behaviors; in fact, banning can make it more alluring.

          • HonestDebate1

            1) I don’t agree, I think some of the lyrics are vile and at the very least should not be trumpeted. Perhaps it’s a flawed analogy but I would also point to the legal use of cigarettes. Smokers are shunned and usage has steadily dropped. Obviously that could be just a correlation but the point is shunning did not have a negative effect. It was positive.

            2) I was thinking of Hillary Clinton who is held up as a role model. But I would include all the scorned wives who stand beside their husbands at apologetic press conferences. Silda Spitzer is another.

            3) It was a joke.

          • AnneDH

            1) I think it is the way a group is shunned that matters. Yes, the smoking ban is just a correlation, since it is not done with any sense of hostility.

            2) Yes, women in the news should set good examples, I agree.

            3) Okay, a joke, but my comment still stands.

          • HonestDebate1

            1) What about the inverse? Is there a down side to shunning hostility civilly?

            2) Jenny Sandford got it right. As I recall, so did Elizabeth Edwards.

            3) I agree and I won’t quit my day job.

          • tuxedobob

            I do shun that type of music. Problem solved!

            Oh, wait, I get what you mean. We should tell *other* people what kind of music they should like! Yeah, that’ll work!

          • jefe68

            Interesting how selective HD is about which Constitutional rights he wants to have more control of.

          • HonestDebate1

            Who said anything about Constitutional rights?

          • HonestDebate1

            No, we just should not celebrate misogynists in the White House or accept their fund raising efforts. That’s a mighty powerful platform to grant.

    • Human2013

      If there is one thing humans do best, it is hiding their true mental state. The only way to handle the gun issue, is to limit there availability to the entire populace because there is absolutely no way we will be able to discern who should and should not have a weapon based on their mental state.

  • Coastghost

    Misogyny: one possible outcome of a naïve idolatry.

  • Coastghost

    Perhaps Americans have grown too unaccustomed to reading various plays by Aristophanes or certain epigrams by Martial or certain satires by Juvenal, or certain poems by Villon or certain comedies by Machiavelli, or certain aphorisms by Schopenhauer or certain stories by Maupassant . . . .
    Or perhaps contemporary utopian feminism may not be telling us anything wholly true about either women or men.

    • HonestDebate1

      Or maybe we should just blame the gun.

      I had to reply since you brought up Guy Maupassant. Last year I did the soundtrack for one of his works. It was a short film. The film was entitled “A Bedtime Story”. It is about a man who spends thousands of dollars a month on prostitutes. His wife demands that he instead pays her for sex. The producer obtained the rights to all of Maupassant’s short stories from the estate. We are just finishing up another sordid misogynistic tale by D.H. Lawrence called “Rawdon’s Roof”. The world premier is June 23 in Milan.

      • Coastghost

        I have “Bed No. 29″ in various translations but not “A Bedtime Story” (or at least, I don’t think so: titles for his stories exhibit some variety in translation), so thanks for the heads-up.
        Impressive project, keep up the good work.
        I’d’ve thought Maupassant’s work is all in public domain by now, since he died in 1893, but French copyright law would be entirely beyond me.
        (If you get to it, Machiavelli’s “Belfagor” is a gem all its own.)

        • HonestDebate1

          I’m not sure of the title of the original work but “A Bedtime Story” is the title of the film. It may be “Bed No. 29″, I’m not sure. It is set in modern times and stars Helene Cardona and Lee Godat. It’s directed by Monica Tidwell. There is even a short scene with a handsome piano player.

          Another one in the works is “The Necklace” but it’s just a screenplay at this point.

          I don’t understand the rights thing either now that you mention it. It does seem like it would be in the public domain. And you have made me curious about the title, I’ll be talking to both the Director and Producer today, I’ll find out.

          I guess I should stop this before the content cops pounce.

  • Human2013

    There is a part of this story that is getting lost; the truths that lie in this kid’s writings and video.

    This kid was, at least, in part, living in on the edge of the land of fairy tales commonly referred to as Hollywood. A place divided by wealth, beauty and youth. He was exposed to the accoutrements of wealth — a young beauty beside a man of considerable means. Hollywood is a place that places the highest premium on beauty and youth while quickly discharging women that reveal that first signs of aging.

    In his world, while dark and twisted, ran parallel to the truths this country is experiencing. We see it the Kim K fiasco and the bashing of aging women — see the recent Nicole kidman headlines. He felt isolated amongst extreme wealth and beauty — an outsider looking in. As is usually the case, this is a story of social isolation, albeit, partly of his own making.

    • brettearle

      Well said.

      But the difference is that he killed and others do not.

      However, the culture that you describe–a culture that we see in advertisements of all kinds and a culture that we see, often, in film and television programs–can bombard and bombard…..

      ….until more and more of the over-stressed and potentially deranged reach a breaking point.

  • Shag_Wevera

    The misogyny stuff is window dressing. The story remains the same. 300 million Americans with cultural traits that include the desire for instant gratification, A weak mental health infrastructure, economic decline and unfulfilled expectations. Lastly, easy access to firearms.
    These spree killings are going to keep happening, and all we can do is bury the bodies and wait for the next one.

  • HonestDebate1

    The guy was certainly deranged but was he actually diagnosed as mentally ill? Someone said he had Aspergers, I’m not sure if it was a diagnosis. If not then what would have, or should have, prevented him from buying a gun?… or knife, or car?

  • Ed75

    We are a country that kills 3-4,000 human beings a day in abortion, how can we not expect to see other forms of violence? We will see a transformation of our society, but it will take a large event to do it. Forgiveness is always available. We should pray for the shooter as well.

    • TFRX

      Submitted without comment.

    • Salty

      Nice thought. I completely agree.

    • Human2013

      I respect your concern on abortion, but we have to consider what happens to an unwanted child.

      • Coastghost

        So let’s abolish BOTH abortion AND capital punishment.

        • Salty

          I would agree with that.

        • Don_B1

          Until a strong safety net is established for prospective mothers, women will still have abortions, but underground with frequent loss of the mother’s life as well. For those who have forgotten, that was the motivation to provide safe legal abortions in the first place.

          Around half of abortion seekers already have one or more children.

          There are many cases where the development of the fetus has gone terribly wrong and the only way to avoid damage to the permanent health of the mother is an abortion, Note that, while rare, these terrible events can occur or only be discovered, at every stage of the fetus’s development.

          Capital punishment is easy and effective to ban. Abortion will only be driven underground for the poor and abroad for the rich by a ban.

      • Ed75

        That’s the old argument. Mother Teresa used to say ‘No child is an unwanted child. If you don’t want your child, give him or her to me.’ And there are many parents looking to adopt today. (And that doesn’t even consider the view that even if a human being is unwanted, we can’t kill him or her. Forgiveness though is always available though, which I must add.)

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Being totally against abortion means that pregnancies resulting from rape becomes part of the misogyny of our society – same goes for denying birth control.

      • Ed75

        Abortion is considered to be never acceptable, as the direct and intentional killing of an innocent human being. (Forgiveness is always available for the asking.) In the case of rape, I remember a very drunken man bragging that he had raped a woman. He said ‘she can always have an abortion’. It seems to me that if abortion weren’t available men would be less likely to commit rape. In that case, the pregnancy is the injury done by the crime, like the healing process after being stabbed in a robbery, no way around it.
        At the same time, rape is a teeny percentage of abortions, I’ve heard 1%. To deny abortion isn’t to hate women, or to torture them, it’s because abortion not only kills someone else, but it is very harmful to women, not only physically but emotionally and spiritually, sonmething she needs to be healed from. Motherhood is natural and a good, even if the child is placed for adoption. (Women deserve better than abortion.) About contraception, that’s also a way that women are being used.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          You are rationalizing. Rape has nothing to do with the availability of legal and Constitutional abortion.

          Zygotes are not human beings.

  • HonestDebate1

    Can someone please craft a law that keeps guns out of the hands of masculine misogynist? How would that work? Is there a blood test?

    • Human2013

      No, it’s a taste test. A taste for rotten flesh.

  • John Cedar

    Misogynist: A man who hates women as much as women hate one another. -H. L. Mencken

    Is this really a topic of conversation, or is it April 1st?

    Crazy people do crazy things.

    • OnPointComments

      A tragedy always brings forth the usual illiterati who erroneously, and arrogantly, profess to know what caused the killer to act, and who invariably project the aberrant behavior of a deranged person to an entire segment of society. They propose new laws that wouldn’t have prevented the incident if their proposed new laws had been enacted before the incident occurred.

      They never believe that crazy people do crazy things on their own accord. They are wrong.

    • nj_v2

      Yep, a sardonic comment from Mencken, and we’re all set.

      Ignorant people make glib, useless comments.

      • jefe68

        You know what’s sad, when I clicked on the link for this show I knew that the right wingers who post here day in and day out, would be making comments such as the one we see above.

        The level of their conceit, and entitlement is telling.

        • Salty

          Examples?

      • Salty

        Huh? What does that mean”

    • Salty

      Yep.

  • Raspberryswirl

    “As of Tuesday morning, the #YESALLWOMEN was used more than 1.4 million times, according to social analytics website Topsy.com.” (NYPOST)

    (CNN) — “No, not all men channel frustration over romantic rejection into a killing spree. But yes, all women experience harassment, discrimination or worse at some point in their lives.”

    Click it and learn:
    https://twitter.com/hashtag/YesAllWomen?src=tren

    • OnPointComments

      THE TEN MOST ASININE THINGS ABOUT #YesAllWomen
      http://thefederalist.com/2014/05/28/the-ten-most-asinine-things-about-yesallwomen/

      Excerpt:

      Social media responded by accepting the murderer’s hate-filled screed as a legitimate point of discourse and the starting point for a massive act of hashtag activism: #YesAllWomen. Traditional media followed suit: the narrative was found. Eleventy billion tweets describing how all women were victims of men spread throughout the U.S. and Europe and the media breathlessly covered the exercise in narcissism. They all agreed it was “powerful.”

      …Which would be thought-provoking or powerful if it were something other than a sexist straw-men generalization that isn’t true.

      1) It Claims To Speak For All Women
      2) It Quickly Led To Blaming Seth Rogen and Judd Apatow For Mass Murder
      3) A Hashtag So “Powerful” It Was Easily Co-Opted By Islamist Theocrats
      4) Struggle Sessions Dishonor Victims And Avoid Responsibility
      9) It Disparages Men In Grotesquely Unfair Fashion

      Rather than seeing each other as men and women with inherent dignity, #YesAllWomen encourages a war where we see each other as enemies to be fought.

      • Raspberryswirl

        Do you even realize that that caption is a play on words?

        I have no comment to the rest of the nonsense.

  • Yar

    Scrap this thread and do a show on works of Maya Angelou instead.

    • Human2013

      Thank you — so sad. However, she lived a life as full as life can get — singer, poet, writer, actress, activist, mother, performer, wife and the list goes on. We don’t see life unfold this way anymore. Maya’s life is the thing of fantasy and sadly lost. Society pigeon holes us into one career on one track and in one country. Her life is so inspiring. I would prefer to be a citizen of the world and the jack of all trades than the master of one craft and a citizen of one nation.

    • tuxedobob

      It was just announced. They need time to book guests. Come back tomorrow.

    • hennorama

      May she rest in peace. She will be greatly missed.

  • Bill98

    Didn’t this sick man shoot 4 men and 2 women? How, then, is misogyny the starting point of this conversation? Don’t the men count?

    Yes, he had some bad things to say about women. He also didn’t like couples, and a lot of other things. To focus solely on misogyny, and to use this to attack men’s rights activists (which he was NOT), can only be the result of someone’s agenda. How sad that they would use such a tragic event for political gain.

    • Coastghost

      No: he stabbed three men to death and fatally shot two women and one man before shooting himself.
      But just as our MSM prefer to accentuate his resort to firearms (practically to the exclusion of any mention of the lethal stabbings of his first three victims), so the MSM will help us all wring hands over his expressed vituperative regard for women.
      Overnight, we had begun to be told that his diatribe is also full of racist invective.

      • Bill98

        Thanks for the clarification. That he was also a racist is not surprising, unfortunately.

  • mngeekgal

    The link some have noted between violent misogyny and fundamentalist terrorism is apt…convert to our faith, wear your burqua, marry the man we selected for you, cease to provide abortions, provide males sex on demand…or die. Elliot Rodgers has much in common with the terrorists who flew planes into the twin towers. It is a continuum…yes, not all fundamentalists, or males engage in violence…but enough to wonder about the link to “god-given” entitlement.

    • brettearle

      Your comment belies a unrealistic agenda of Feminism.

      To link terrorism with misogyny, by way of Elliot Rodger, is a distorted stretch.

      • mngeekgal

        Really…look at what’s happening to girls who wish to educate themselves in Nigeria, in Afghanistan and tell me that terrorism isn’t linked with the repression of women’s agency.

        • brettearle

          I do see a link.

          But not necessarily through Mental Illness.

          What’s more, I think you do Feminism a disservice by bringing Radical Fundamentalism into the equation.

          Such political ideology has far, far more implications for Humanity, generally.

  • Raspberryswirl

    The tragedy of Elliot Rodgers is an example of extreme misogyny in this country. The discussion is way overdue. Why? Because if I, an average middle-class female, has experienced: male rage, male violence, gender discrimination in the workplace, men acting entitled to my attention, a male boss following me around town looking for me and sending love songs to my home, a man holding a machete to my neck in a kitchen because the customer sent back her salad when I waitressed myself through college, because as a golden-child analyst for the government, I watched two male morons (honestly, one of them couldn’t even spell simple words or put two sentences together) get promoted over me, because I can’t go for a walk in my up-scale predominately white town without the guy down the street trying to chat me up when I am minding my own business, because when I applied a “feminist” view to class material in a very well known private college the male adjunct tried to have me removed from the class…..and it goes on and on. You know–I am one woman who goes through life minding her own business and working hard to make my own place. I cannot imagine for one second that I am the only one who is exasperated with the growing misogyny experienced day to day!! Thank you OnPoint for doing this episode and helping to get the word out–and to educate many people here.

    • Salty

      Sorry about your personal experience. See my note above… Blaming “men” for what someone does or a few people have done will be counter productive…

      • Raspberryswirl

        Then you just don’t get it.

        • Salty

          So, a lady being mistreated by a man is the fault of “men” rather than the individual?

          • James

            No it’s the fault of misogyny and the individual

          • Salty

            Mysogyny is not a “person” it can’t be at “fault”.

          • jefe68

            It is a fault if you use it to frame your view of women.

          • Salty

            It is the responsibility of the person. Putting the blame on some abstract concept rather than a person is wrong and a cop out.

          • Salty

            …people are at fault. Blaming it on a “concept” lets the perpetrators off the hook.

        • francomaistre

          Your experiences are valid and important Raspberryswirl. Misogyny is a problem, and I want to help you solve that problem. But how can I be your ally when you treat maleness as a monolith, blame my gender for mental illness and mass murder, and indiscriminately throw around loaded buzzwords like “male rage”, “male violence”, “male entitlement” etc? Give me an opportunity to be an ally before you start attacking my gender.

          • Salty

            Yep … What he said…

          • Raspberryswirl

            For starters, you could listen and learn, instead of blasting defensively like many of these guys are doing here. Watch–keep your eyes opened–you’d have to be blind not to see it. BTW–I did not comment on mental illness or mass murder.

          • Raspberryswirl

            And, if your question is sincere, you could call it for what it is when you see it. Put a name on it.

          • francomaistre

            I respond defensively precisely because you are vociferously on the offensive here conflating gender (mine) with a psychopathic mass murder connected to deep roots of mental illness. I have exactly one thing in common with Elliot Rodger, and I’m reacting no differently than you would when you see something online disparaging your gender.

          • Raspberryswirl

            Well then if you were a woman, you’d be outraged all the time, wouldn’t you? Sux to be under a microscope, doesn’t it?

            The reason I posted was to make a point that if I experienced all this as a typical “average” American woman, then how many other women are experiencing this too? Why aren’t our collective voices being heard and our stories being told? When they are, why do men like you try to invalidate them? I know it is not ALL men hurting women! But, ALL men can be a part of the solution! ALL men can do their part to stop the violent acts! All men have a place at the table to make this a richer society for everyone.

          • francomaistre

            That’s a great rallying cry, I give you that, but given the problem at hand on the program today of a profoundly isolated and mentally ill individual like Rodger, what as a man could I have done to intervene and prevent Rodger’s killing spree? If you seriously think there was something a man could have done that wasn’t already done to prevent this, I’d love for you to share it and head off the next mass killing.

            I’m awfully skeptical that the solution is that simple. Just because I share a chromosome with Rodgers doesn’t give me any influence over his therapy and life. In spite of your strident insistence upon lumping me in with a person like this based on a single chromosome, there really is very little if anything I could have done to avoid this. I am every bit as powerless and victimized by this man as you are.

          • Raspberryswirl

            Fran, I am sorry, but I just couldn’t keep up with all the postings here yesterday and needed to give it a rest. This is my last post.

            I don’t think you are like Elliot Rogder, or lump you in with people remotely like him. And, I don’t think the solution is simple.

            Consider a different issue–assuming you are not a climate change denier— don’t you stay up on climate change events and education? Talk about it with family/friends in a concerned manner? Take appropriate actions to limit your carbon footprint? Hope our society(ies) change around and are able to reduce carbon emissions for the good of everyone?

            Just because I don’t personally own FF stock or personally cut down the Amazon, doesn’t mean I throw my hands up and say, Gee Wiz, that suxs for other people. I don’t deny the cause or the solution. I am a human, and I accept that if I ignore CC, I am part of the problem.

            Addressing, learning about and eradicating misogyny from our culture is in many respects the same.

            I enjoyed “speaking” with you. Good Bye and Have a Good Day. :) -Rasp

          • red_donn

            Do you know how to be seen as an ally to women? Act like one.

            It takes very little to create your own opportunity to be counted as an ally. As demonstrated by the most up-voted comment all that is required is honestly in support of their position, which can be as little as, “I don’t really get all of this, but I’m trying to understand.”

            As a well-to-do white male of imposing physical appearance, I feel that my position in society affords me a sufficient reserve of strength and patience to empathize with a comment that might give offense to someone in a more defensive situation. Holding victims to a higher standard than those with advantages is a perverse notion.

            At the very least, don’t go out with the aim to downplay or dismiss their position! When a group is oppressed or victimized, it is not their primary responsibility to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Previous suffering teaches people to be cautious, and it is human nature to translate wariness of a group into an apparent blanket statement.
            If you are interested in making yourself into an ally, make a few posts that are actually about trying to understand their whole outlook, rather than attacking it. A single post in support of women will engender more goodwill than hundreds focusing on how you feel excluded.

          • francomaistre

            It isn’t merely that I don’t understand the proposal this show is putting forward, it’s that I don’t agree with it. Despite his extensive misogynist rantings, only two of Rodger’s victims were women. He has the most extensive history of mental illness of any mass shooter yet on record. His violent psychosis is not a representative example of repressed male anger anymore than Jodi Arias was representative of her gender’s failings. I want to be an ally to address the problem of cultural misogyny, but don’t ask me to accept psychopathic mass murder into my gender identity in order to do so. I have nothing in common with Elliot Rodger besides a chromosome.

          • red_donn

            I should begin this reply by apologizing for a lack of clarity in my post. I am adressing, not so much this particular act, but the general response of my fellow men to questions of feminism.

            You make a cogent point in terms of his victims. Indeed, my fiancee, a self-described neo-feminist, made it last night, and I am much in agreement. The letters were misogynistic, but the act was roughly in line with various psychotic acts. When I referred to their “position” I meant the general manner of discussing male-female dynamics and the victimization of women by men, which does occur. Indeed I can critique various positions that are widely asserted or left unexamined, but that does not mean I cease to be an ally.

            “How can I be your ally …Give me an opportunity to be an ally”

            I do not take the spirit found above to be a feeling isolated to this particular incident. I have sadly found this to be the default position of male comments on every discussion of feminism for years. I believe, quite simply, that men claiming they need to be gently and softly welcomed, nestled in as friends and allies by default, is a purely defensive reaction. Throughout this topic alone I’ve seen one instance after another of a great lack of chivalry, all the way down to telling a rape victim to spend more time thinking about statistics of violent crime towards males, and so I am addressing this general attitude.

            Yes, women often say that “men” do something or other. So? I do not take this to be an attack on maleness and masculinity as such. Men could generally ask that every single statement begin with, “In the following exposition, we shall take ‘men’ to mean some portion of the male populace, in varying numbers and degrees, partake of given actions.”

            Or, seeing as how I am confident in my character and secure in my social position, I can infer this among many comments and take somewhat rough phrasing in stride. Femi-nazis and real misandrysts will, by their arguments, reveal themselves. The rest are perfectly content to have a masculine ally present himself as such.

          • Don_B1

            And why was Rodger angry with men?

            Because those he knew, and hated, were successful with women!

            So his killing men was intimately related to his misogyny! Think about why you missed that!

            Take a deeper look at why you disagree with the proposal this program is putting forward. Maybe your attitude toward women is not so benign as you think it is.

          • francomaistre

            Maybe my attitudes aren’t all squeeky clean. I’m not perfect. I don’t claim to be. But this conversation isn’t about me. I don’t have the 14 year history of paranoid schizophrenia Elliot Rodger did. By validating his psychotic ramblings and murderous actions as somehow rational and projecting that onto sane, healthy men like myself who support women’s rights, people you are perpetuating gender-derived hatred and poisoning the whole conversation about gender.

          • Don_B1

            One reason that all men who are not misogynistic need to do is to stand up and openly oppose those other men in the minority who are.

            All men need to make it clear that misogyny is a sickness. Whether it is one that just develops when it is not shown to be wrong when the man is still a child, or it comes in other ways, it needs to be shown unacceptable.

          • francomaistre

            Superficially this seems like good advice, but how exactly would this have prevented the Isla Vista killing spree? Elliot Rodger had a much more profound sickness than misogyny, which ended in the murder of 2 women and 4 men, whose deaths in particular have been tremendously downplayed in this conversation about misogyny. In the end, Elliot Rodger victimized men at least as much or more than he victimized women. You’re blaming victims when you lay responsibility for this tragedy at the feet of any man other than Elliot Rodger, and you’re doing nothing to prevent another tragedy like this one.

  • Salty

    Misogyny??? Seems like politically correct efforts at societal engineering to me. Do people mistreat one another – sure, all too often. Are men mistreated by women? Sure, all too often. Are women mistreated by men? Sure, all too often. But I fear this type of newspeak is an effort to change society to “man bad”, “woman good”, “self determination bad”, “collectivism good”… “We need to tell you what to do, how to act and what to think. We know best, you don’t.” (The “we” being the social-political-media elite and “you” being the rest of us.)

    I will wait and see the direction the show takes…

    (Actually the Oxford English Dictionary indicates that the opposite of “misogyny is “misandry”.)

    • nj_v2

      WTF?!

      • Salty

        What do you mean by ‘WTF”?

        • jefe68

          He means your comment is so absurd and over the top that there is not much more to say than, WTF?

          • Salty

            Does “WTF” stands for “What the _______(profanity) ______”? Easy to say that rather than dispute the content.

          • Salty

            …and again, no comment on the content…I probably struck a nerve.

        • hennorama

          Salty — not to speak for nj_v2, but I’ve always translated that acronym as “Wherefore Thy Folderol?”

          But that’s just me.

          • Salty

            Oh, I get it. Thanks!

    • Don_B1

      But you seem perfectly happy to tell others what to do (or not do).

      You either really have no idea of the position of power you inherently take/ have in relationships with women or you know it and don’t want to give it up.

      A little self-analysis might go a long way.

      • Salty

        Huh? You know the “power” I have or want”? You know what I have and don’t want to give up? You know my gender? I am amazed at your level of analysis of me.

        How about addressing the comments I made…

      • Salty

        i never tell people what to do. Perhaps if I said: “Leave people to make their own minds up and to live their lives.” that could be construed that way…

        How do you even know my gender?

        You know what I don’t know about myself? I am not sure you even know me. Perhaps we are family members, neighbours, work colleagues and I don’t realize it.

        Goodness, we have a long way to go…

  • X Y & Z

    Where’s all the liberal outrage over President Obama’s illegal drone strikes which have killed hundreds of innocent people in the Middle East?
    There’s no real difference between killing someone with gun or a drone. Killing is killing, no matter if it’s done by someone with mental issues, or by the President of the United States, it’s wrong and unjustifiable. Those who engage in such actions, must be held accountable in a court of law.

  • Lori Day

    I remain aghast at the number of men in comment threads all over the internet who do not see–or claim not to see–the misogyny in this event, or in the country and the world in general. They are male supremacists who, like white supremacists, have a very warped view of reality. I despair at how as a culture we will ever reach these men, but hoo boy, we’ve got to try.

    • brettearle

      Did he hate women or just the women who rejected him?

      Why isn’t there a difference?

      • Lori Day

        Did you watch the video? Read anything? He went after random women, indiscriminately, and talked about women as being subhuman, across the board. He talked about how men should get to decide who women have sex with and “breed with.” My God, this man was prolific! He left such an enormous digital trail behind that documented his misogyny, it is stunning. Seriously, this is not a shade of gray here. He hated women, all women, period. He said so! Please pay attention so that you are not a part of the problem of massive denial. 160 million females are missing on this planet–more killed, simply for being female, than all deaths combined related to war or genocides in the history of the human race. I am stunned–STUNNED–that so many men want to argue that misogyny does not exist or did not exist in this mass murder. It is soul obliterating and I am so very, very tired of the denial, derailment, and obfuscation,

        • brettearle

          You’re right.

          I did not read the full story and I should have.

          Nevertheless, a deranged mind should not be used and manipulated by a Feminist agenda and be used to champion the cause against Misogyny.

          Misogyny exists WITHOUT the appearance of Mental Illness.

          Don’t exploit Mental Illness to confirm your ideological agenda.

          • Erin

            I don’t see why this is exploiting mental illness. Why can’t the
            conversation be about both? Yes, he was mentally ill, but he was also a
            misogynist. I actually think perhaps the people on the misogynist forums
            he was visiting exploited his mental illness more than anyone else.
            When we live in a society that suggests men are entitled to women’s
            bodies, people like Elliott Rodger (who admittedly had social anxiety
            and issues meeting women) get the idea that they are being denied
            something when they aren’t having sex. Whether he was mentally ill or
            not, this idea came from somewhere. He was involved in communities of
            like-minded individuals, full of other men, the majority of whom were
            not mentally ill. They may not go on a killing spree, but they exist.

            The mental illness conversation is so important, as is gun control, but why not talk about misogyny, too?

          • Lori Day

            I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I’m a psychologist. I am not “exploiting mental illness.” Such an odd thing to say.

        • jefe68

          Denial, derailment, and obfuscation, to use your words, is in abundance on this forum. It’s interesting to note how the male responses are almost predictable. The other interesting thing is how the conservative and right wingers all seem to be in denial or are trying to change the subject completely.

          From what I’ve read about Rodgers, it’s clear he hated women and his rage was out of control. Which manifested itself in this horrific event.

          • brettearle

            Jef–

            Would you not agree that, in this case, Misogyny is being too conflated with Mental Illness?

          • jefe68

            No, not in the case of this incident.
            I think Rodger’ hatred and rage, which is at the root of misogyny in my opinion.
            His problem seems that his alleged mental problems seems to have added to his views of women and power.

            Mental illness could have been a factor, or was a direct factor. However, that does not take away from the facts regarding violence against women and what causes this, how some men are conditioned to think they are entitled to
            control women.

            Take the case of Jared Remy who just pleaded guilty to murdering his girlfriend Jennifer Martel and was sentenced to a mandatory life without parole. misogyny

          • brettearle

            If Rodger had not murdered–especially indiscriminately–then, it seems to me that we could much more readily separate out the issues.

            But when someone goes into such a rampage, how do you identify and separate out the differences?

            I think it’s quite difficult to do that.

      • jefe68

        Both, it’s not uncommon.

        4000 women a year are murdered by a man they know who is either their boyfriend or spouse.

        Violence against women is al to common in our society, one only needs to look up the stats:

        http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistics.html

        • brettearle

          I was mistaken.

          But with a caveat.

          See my comment below.

          I should have read about the Manifesto and I didn’t.

        • HonestDebate1

          Half of domestic violence is perpetrated by women against men. And I believe more men are murdered by their spouses than women by theirs. It’s all awful but I just think violence is the issue, not sex.

          • jefe68

            I’m not sure that stat is correct.

            On average, 24 people per minute are victims of rape, physical violence or stalking by an intimate partner in the United States — more than 12 million women and men over the course of a year.

            Nearly 3 in 10 women (29%) and 1 in 10 men (10%) in the US have experienced rape, physical violence and/or stalking by a partner and report a related impact on their functioning.

            Nearly, 15% of women (14.8%) and 4% of men have been injured as a result of IPV that included rape, physical violence and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

            1 in 4 women (24.3%) and 1 in 7 men (13.8%) aged 18 and older in the United States have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

            IPV alone affects more than 12 million people each year.

            More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

            Nearly half of all women and men in the United States have experienced psychological aggression by an intimate partner in their lifetime (48.4% and 48.8%, respectively).

            Females ages 18 to 24 and 25 to 34 generally experienced the highest rates of intimate partner violence.

            From 1994 to 2010, about 4 in 5 victims of intimate partner violence were female.

            Most female victims of intimate partner violence were previously victimized by the same offender, including 77% of females ages 18 to 24, 76% of females ages 25 to 34, and 81% of females ages 35 to 49.

            http://www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/statistics/

          • HonestDebate1

            There are a lot of factors.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092

          • jefe68

            One of which is you being wrong.

          • HonestDebate1

            If you don’t like the government study here are 200 more:

            http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assaultsbib.html

            I certainly think rape is a crime of violence but I also think it is a different category that clouds the issue here. It is nearly impossible for a woman to rape a man.

            [edit] I see someone else is typing, dollars to donuts it’s Hen being nasty.

          • cloudiah

            Many of those studies do not in fact show “gender symmetry” in IPV if you actually read them. Many of the authors of those studies are on the record as being appalled at how Fiebert is misrepresenting their research. Even the ones that do show “gender symmetry” do it by treating a shove or a slap exactly the same as an assault that results in broken bones and an ER visit. The costs — both individual and societal — of male-on-female IPV absolutely eclipse those of female-on-male IPV, and absolutely no credible experts say any different. All violence is wrong, but all IPV is not equivalent.

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree that all IPV is not equivalent. And I did not read all 200 studies. I’m just saying there is a lot of evidence out there to suggest the problem goes both ways.

            As I said to Jeffe, there are a lot of factors and actually IPV has nothing to do with this case. I think it is always an important topic but tying it to Rodgers seems agenda driven. It bothers me how divided we’ve become along the lines of sex and other factors.

            I would like to know why the majority of mass murderers are male which seems more on point if we want to discuss this case.

          • cloudiah

            Not just the majority of mass murderers are men. The majority of violence period is committed by men. Why do you think this is? Hint: I do not believe the answer to that question is that men are inherently bad. As a feminist, I do not believe women are better than men — we’re just not worse.

          • HonestDebate1

            Testosterone?

          • francomaistre

            These are both extremely myopic and self-serving sentiments. A majority of crime maybe committed by men, but the vast majority of law enforcement, fire and rescue and paramedic services are performed by men as well. The pressures of social expectations and money explain most of this. Crime rates for women and women’s participation in dangerous professions are both on the rise, but until recently society has discouraged or prevented women from taking on these kinds of roles and confined them to safer more domestic activities.

            As for women not being worse than men? There maybe a chasm in the statistics, but the female gender is hardly free of felons. One need only consider the Jodi Arias case to see just how violently, malicious and cruel a woman can be if she wants to. Is there any meaningful context in which a murderess like her is “better” than 150,000,000+ men in the United States who’ve never shot, stabbed, mutilated or murdered anybody?

          • cloudiah

            Your reading comprehension is extremely poor. When I say, “I do not believe women are better than men — we’re just not worse” your seem to think I’m saying women are better than men.

            And you try to argue that pointing out the fact that men commit most of the violence, and asking a question about why that is is “myopic and self-serving.” There is no logic to that.

            There’s no point to continuing a discussion with you if you’re going to simply misrepresent what I say.

          • jefe68

            What? Are you kidding? Rape, which is about power and control in most cases, not sex, is the root of men being violent against women. Rodger’s entire diatribe was rooted in this kind of anger and gender based power issues. He wanted to be on control and it’s clear that on some level the women he tired to engage rejected him. This seems to have fueled his rage. One can try to separate rape from violence against women in a topic such as this, but in my opinion they are linked.

          • HonestDebate1

            Read it again:

            “I certainly think rape is a crime of violence ” -me

            Rape is not about sex. Violence it the root of rape, not the other way around or Rodgers would have raped someone.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — of course, Debates?NotHe would point to information that is not only ridiculously out of date, it was narrowly focused (“fatal violence and victimization”) and unsupportive of his statement and “belief”, which was

            Half of domestic violence is perpetrated by women against men. And I believe more men are murdered by their spouses than women by theirs.

          • HonestDebate1

            Ha! I knew it was you, so typical.

            In fact, the overwhelming mass of evidence indicates that half of all domestic violence cases involve an exchange of blows and the remaining 50% is evenly split between men and women who are brutalized by their partners.

            http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/01/30/a-hidden-crime-domestic-violence-against-men-is-a-growing-probl/

          • jefe68

            Wow. So childish.

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree, she does it all the time. I like to make her dance before I back up my claim.

            Let me explain how easy it is. I made 2 points to you: 1) Half of domestic violence is perpetrated by women against men, and 2) I believe more men are murdered by their spouses than women by theirs.

            I went on to give you a 1 study (and then another 200) that backed up the second one. Predictably, Hen comes along and trashes me through you to say I didn’t back up the first. She ignores my caveat that there are a lot of factors. I actually think too many to conclude seat in this instance but that doesn’t stop the other side of the argument. Then the queen of narrow accuses me of being narrow. It doesn’t get any funnier. Having been thoroughly amused by her dance, I then back up the first claim.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — childish and foolish, as this quote from [Debates?NotHe]‘s own linked source above demonstrates (emphasis added):

            “Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27), their risk of being killed by a spouse or intimate acquaintance was higher (RR = 1.23).

    • Coastghost

      Maybe “gender equality” is constituent of a “warped view of reality”: Steven Goldberg has suggested as much with his titles “The Inevitability of Patriarchy” and “Why Men Rule”.

  • David_from_Lowell

    Something that would be interesting to add to the On Point conversation would be the seeming difficulty young men (or maybe even men of all ages) have in building emotionally-fulfilling friendships, due to a societally-truncated definition of masculinity. In no way do I intend to take away from or diminish the discussion of misogyny and the worldwide repression of women, but perhaps men too suffer from limiting definitions of gender-acceptable behavior. Maybe if young men felt more encouraged to have fully-formed emotional lives and friendships, they would be better at empathizing with others and changing their behavior?

  • brettearle

    Why is the tragedy the result of Misogyny?

    Why isn’t that misleading?

    Who says this deranged mind hated all women?

    This violence was triggered by rejection, in combination with mental illness.

    This pathetic and sick person only hated the women who rejected him.

    And then his mind, subsequently, spun out of control and went off the deep end.

    • Erin

      Where are you getting this idea that he only hated the women who rejected him? He repeatedly wrote in his manifesto that he hated all women. For example: “Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals and they need to be treated as such.”

      • brettearle

        See my comment a few comments below.

  • Jeff

    The real issue is mental health, not misogyny, not guns but mental illness. We need to reform mental health laws now, this guy should not have been on the loose and he should never have been able to buy a gun (due to a mental illness). Privacy laws pertaining to mental illness are killing people day after day…we need to change them so we can all see if someone is unstable and we need common sense lists to prevent mentally unstable people from buying firearms (similar to a felon/criminal list).

    Keep in mind that the first 3 people killed in this massacre were males and were hacked to death with a machete.

    Misogyny is a separate issue and it is real…the #yesALLwomen movement is a good thing. Men need to take the time to look at women as individuals rather than objects. I’m just saying the connection between this massacre and misogyny (or gun control) has been overblown.

    • hennorama

      Jeff — without changing HIPAA and related privacy statutes and considerations, perhaps we can change the statutes and regulations regarding the purchase of firearms.

      At present, Federal law prohibits firearms possession and purchase by individuals who have been “committed to a mental institution” or “adjudicated as a mental defective.”

      This clearly was too narrow a prohibition to exclude the suspect from multiple legal firearm purchases.

      [PS: on a positive note, it is virtually a universal opinion that mentally disturbed individuals, as you wrote, "should never [be] able to buy a gun (due to a mental illness).”]

      • Jeff

        The problem is that there’s no list for those people who have been committed or have a severe mental illness that gun shops have access to…the person purchasing has to admit to having a mental illness or being in a mental institution. We need a better system but in in the end this guy shouldn’t have even been on the street…how many people would he have killed with the machete if he continued his spree using that instead of a gun?

        • hennorama

          Jeff — thank you for your thoughtful response.

          One possible change, which I have put forward previously, would be a requirement that an applicant for firearms purchase be certified to be free of mental defect, via a pre-purchase/transfer examination. This would be comparable to eye exams for driver licensing, and similar to requirements for purchases of medical marijuana.

          As to whether or not “this guy shouldn’t have even been on the street” and your question “…how many people would he have killed with the machete if he continued his spree,” — you may be correct about a need for institutionalization or in-patient treatment.

          As to an ability to inflict harm with a bladed weapon or blunt object — the potential victims have the instinct to flee, and their speed and elusiveness is far better protection from those weapons, which need proximity to be effective. This is not the case with firearms, which can be effective from distance.

        • HonestDebate1

          He was visited by six cops on April 30 for a welfare check. IF they had found his writings and arsenal then it would possibly have prevented this. But I suppose hindsight is 20/20 and there is that 4th amendment to consider. But still I agree with you, he shouldn’t have been os the street.

        • Sidney

          If you think the outcome will be the same with a machete wielding person versus a guy with a gun(s), then lets send our troops to Iraq with machetes and save tax payers the cost of expensive guns.

        • Sidney

          Only God knows the answer. Who would you rather come face to face with? A guy with a gun or a guy with a machete? I’ll take my chances with a guy with two machetes. Maybe my running days will come in handy. LOL

    • Sidney

      It beats my imagination how we try very hard to separate the violence perpetuated by mentally ill patients from gun laws!!! These are undeniably intertwined! What current laws on the books or common sense practices will stop a mentally ill person (who is currently receiving the best mental health care) from going to a gun show and buying an AR-15? It’s time for the gun lobbyist to accept the simple fact that background checks WILL make a difference.

      • Jeff

        All federally licensed gun dealers HAVE to do a background check at gun shows based on current federal law…only private sellers do not. The current background check proposed laws would require a grandfather handing a shotgun down to a grandson to have the grandson go through a background check.

        • Sidney

          If I were mentally ill, well you guessed right from whom I will purchase my guns from. It does not make a difference to the parents who are burying their kids where these guns used in these killing were purchased from.

  • hennorama

    The killings and assaults did not occur in Santa Barbara.

    Isla Vista, where the rampage actually took place, is a small town adjacent to the University of California at Santa Barbara, but is about 10 miles from Santa Barbara, CA itself.

    • nj_v2

      Since i live in the area, i regularly note that stories posted by national media, or by distant outlets, often note any event occurring within a few ten of miles of Boston as having occurred “in Boston.”

      Journalistic laziness.

      • hennorama

        nj_v2 — TYFYR.

        It may be laziness, or simplicity, as it is a bit confusing that the adjacent University has “Santa Barbara” in its name.

        It may also be simplicity. I daresay that before last Friday, no one else in this forum knew the placename “Isla Vista,” but that all were familiar with “Santa Barbara.”

  • Coastghost

    Golly gee whiz: is it POSSIBLE that the advent of feminism has contributed somehow (inadvertently or no) to the advent of misogyny?

    • mngeekgal

      Um…all you have to do is read any “holy book” and see that misogyny has been with us for a long time.

      • Coastghost

        Don’t pick on the holy books unduly: as I cited in my post from some eight or nine hours ago, world literature is FULL of male expressions of regard for women: some of it is tender, some of it is vituperative.
        I’m as skeptical of feminist accounts of the native holiness of the feminine condition as I am of any male’s account of the native goodness of humanity itself.

        • mngeekgal

          Hah! The “holy books” are thrown in our faces on a daily basis. Try again.

          I said nothing about the feminine as “goddess” or anything along those lines…I pointed out that the “holy books” have a very NEGATIVE view of the feminine.

          • Coastghost

            Many women (overt feminists or no) have VERY NEGATIVE views of males and masculinity, go figure.

          • mngeekgal

            As do many men have of women. And they have validated themselves via the “holy books” in that matter.

            There’s very little in religious writing validating women with regards to the evil men have done to people overall, to also women and children.

            It’s only about the evil of women seducing/way-laying men.

    • jefe68

      And yet you keep on proving feminist right with every comment you post on this subject.

    • Clareita

      No.

    • nj_v2

      ^ Finding new and ever more convoluted ways to blame the victim.

      • Coastghost

        If women remain “victims” perpetually, even decades after the advent of contemporary feminism, why take the unending assertions of “gender equality” at all seriously?
        Gender equality looks less and less tenable, less and less credible politically every day.

  • Mari McAvenia

    The average insecure white male doesn’t write a manifesto before going on a killing spree. That he blamed women, directly, for his hatred of all humanity is all too common, however. This show is about some women’s response to the recent slaughter in California, not about the slaughter itself. Can we focus on that and lay down the unwarranted defensiveness on the part of the usual male commenters, today? Do it for Maya Angelou.

  • Ed75

    It seems to me that we’re in a sex drenched culture, we think sex is the highest point of life, a kind of heresy.

    • geraldfnord

      Simultaneously sex-drenched and puritanical; consider, for example, that many fathers would rather hear that their daughters killed people for money than had sex with them, and not just because we seem bent on making life for prostitutes as bad as possible (another puritanical artifact).

      • Ed75

        Yes, things are very confused. A healthy view of sexuality, which our society is far from, would heal so many problems. Lots of innocent people getting hurt. (Those car ads are quite something.)

  • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

    This concerns Family Court Judge Eric Adams, Genesee County, New York, who stated to me: “If you don’t get those kids to their father’s house, and that includes having the Sheriff drag them out of their bedrooms, I may have to decide you are an unfit mother and tell social services to take custody of your children and put them in foster care.”
    I have lived in Batavia, Genesee County, NY, for over twenty years. I am single, educated, with a Master’s Degree in Communication, and earn over $80, 000 a year as a nurse for the Office of the Medicaid Inspector General. During the last three or four years I have had the unfortunate experience of appearing before the newly elected Genesee County Family Court Judge, Eric Adams, for a custody hearing for my now seventeen year-old son.
    Judge Adams was described to me, by a lawyer in town, as “the geek who never got laid in college and is now out to punish every woman he can.” In appearing before him I perceived him to be contemptuous, rude, accusatory and unfair. He badgered me on the witness stand with statements such as “Do you really expect me to believe that? “And, “Let the questioning continue (despite my lawyers objections). I am allowing it to get to the veracity of the witnesses’ statements. “ He said these words as if I wouldn’t know what “veracity” meant. He repeatedly laughed at my responses and scoffed at my statements.
    Although my son’s law guardian, Jacqueline Grasso, Esq., and my son, both testified to a strong rationale for me to have custody, due to violence and threats from my ex-husband; and although my ex-husband admitted to “sprinkling prescription drugs” in my son’s food without his knowledge and pinning him to the floor when he tried to leave the house; and although my ex-husband’s job schedule showed that he was not available to be home due to a primarily evening shift job, the judge took over four months (all of last summer) to decide that custody should go to the father.
    My son, and his thirteen year-old sister, were afraid of their father’s rage and stayed at my house all last summer, never seeing their father who lived a mile away in the same town. I assured them repeatedly that everyone that I spoke to had said that a seventeen year-old would be allowed to choose who to live with, especially since there had been violent conflicts between him and his father.
    In September, Judge Eric Adams ruled that the father should custody of my son. My son and daughter still did not want to go to the father’s house. After I filed for child support in mid-September, the father took me to court for “withholding access to the children.” At the hearing, Judge Eric Adams said to me, “If you don’t get those kids to their father’s house, and that includes having the Sheriff drag them out of their bedrooms, I may have to decide you are an unfit mother and tell social services to take custody of your children and put them in foster care.”
    I have since learned that this Judge is infamous in this town for making these kinds of statements to women. One woman told me that, despite her work schedule being from 1-9 p.m., Judge Adams told her that “unless you make your children available (drive them to) their father’s, I may have to take them away from you.”
    I live in fear. Once my son leaves home, my ex-husband should, by all rights, begin paying child support to me for our daughter. He will take me to court again and I have no hope of keeping her. If I make a complaint against the judge, he will take revenge. If I do nothing, he will take revenge.
    Thank you for reading this,
    Cary Zigrossi

  • geraldfnord

    All Real Men know that women are suspiciously effeminate.

  • Salty

    Misogyny – no. Some people mistreat others – yes. People mistreat people, genders don’t.

    • geraldfnord

      Misogyny isn’t a property of genders, but of individuals, and mistreatment centred around a person’s being a woman is an expression of ‘misogyny’, as mistreatment centred around a person’s being a man stems from misandry, that from a person’s being of a given race ‘racism’, and that stemming from a person’s being poor ‘business as usual’.

      • Salty

        I get it… What I am hearing though is the classic “men bad, women good” though.

        • jefe68

          Nope, but if you want to hear it that way maybe you’re part of the problem.

          • Salty

            Yeah, that’s it. Those who don’t agree are part of the problem. Men are the problem not the man who is acting inappropriately.

          • jefe68

            You keep on proving the point being made. Not all men are the problem, but some refuse to open their eyes and ignore the issue. Others get defensive, which is what you seem to be doing, while others may step up. So far every comment I’ve read that you have written seem pretty defensive. Which in and of it self has a subtext.

          • Salty

            ??? That’s my point – a man is the problem, or an assortment of men, not men in general. Most of what I was hearing and reading is that “men” are the problem. That should actually bother people even more – if it is “men” by their nature then men can blame their choices and behavior on that inherent nature and not tale responsibility for their actions.

    • nj_v2

      Kinda how “some” white folks “mistreated” some black folks for so long. And the way some Catholics “mistreated” some Protestants. And “some” Huts “mistreated” Tutsis.

      Yeah, now it all makes sense!

      • Salty

        You got it. A white guy now is not responsible for slave owners from the past. A black person today is not responsible for the black slave traders in west Africa 300 years ago. A Catholic in Connecticut is not responsible for the Catholic misbehavior in some other community or nation.

  • way2ski

    The “Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll” lives on… and on

  • Scott B

    This wasn’t any one thing, like “male entitlement”. Granted, he was sitting in a BMW, so obviously used to some of the finer things in life, and the way people often defer to that class of people. He also, and obviously, had huge ego ,calling himself “beautiful”, etc. But, he was a kid with Asperger’s, and therefore likely had some form of communication issues, such as misreading interest and reactions, and that probably fed into the other issues.

  • Ed75

    For example, Mother Angelica (EWTN) said that she didn’t understand why public school students need sex education year after year. She said that her mother told her everything she needed to know in five minutes.

    • J__o__h__n

      I can’t imagine she needed much instruction considering her profession.

      • Ed75

        Funny. Well, she wasn’t born a nun. (And she has to counsel women about sexuality.) Everyone is sexual and has to understand sexuality, our society understands it incorrectly.

  • Salty

    When I work in group of women and they are acting in a rude or inappropriate way, I blame the individuals – not the gender.

    • Raspberryswirl

      I’m pretty sure that when you lumped women into a group you just targeted the gender. Think about what you are saying.

      • Salty

        Nope, the collective I used “women” referred to the specific group I was dealing with not all women.

      • OnPointComments

        And how many times have you lumped men into a group in this forum?

        • Raspberryswirl

          He sees a “group of women,,, acting in a rude or inappropriate way…,” but claims he is not targeting a gender, which I called him on.

          This forum does, indeed, target a gender, in fact, two genders, to highlight violence against women.

          Intention matters and context counts.

  • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

    This concerns the only Family Court Judge in Genesee County, New York, who stated to me: “If you don’t get those kids to their father’s house, and that includes having the Sheriff drag them out of their bedrooms, I may have to decide you are an unfit mother and tell social services to take custody of your children and put them in foster care.”
    I have lived in Batavia, Genesee County, NY, for over twenty years. I am single, educated, with a Master’s Degree in Communication, and earn a good living. I pay my taxes. During the last three or four years I have had the unfortunate experience of appearing before the newly elected Genesee County Family Court Judge, for a custody hearing for my now seventeen year-old son.
    The judge was described to me, by a lawyer in town, as “the geek who never got laid in college and is now out to punish every woman he can.” In appearing before him I perceived him to be contemptuous, rude, accusatory and unfair. He badgered me on the witness stand with statements such as “Do you really expect me to believe that? “And, “Let the questioning continue (despite my lawyers objections). I am allowing it to get to the veracity of the witnesses’ statements. “ He said these words as if I wouldn’t know what “veracity” meant. He repeatedly laughed at my responses and scoffed at my statements.
    Although my son’s law guardian and my son, both testified to a strong rationale for me to have custody, due to violence and threats from my ex-husband; and although my ex-husband admitted to “sprinkling prescription drugs” in my son’s food without his knowledge and pinning him to the floor when he tried to leave the house; and although my ex-husband’s job schedule showed that he was not available to be home due to a primarily evening shift job, the judge took over four months (all of last summer) to decide that custody should go to the father.
    My son, and his thirteen year-old sister, were afraid of their father’s rage and stayed at my house all last summer, never seeing their father who lived a mile away in the same town. I assured them repeatedly that everyone that I spoke to had said that a seventeen year-old would be allowed to choose who to live with, especially since there had been violent conflicts between him and his father.
    In September, the judge ruled that the father should custody of my son. My son and daughter still did not want to go to the father’s house. After I filed for child support in mid-September, the father took me to court for “withholding access to the children.” At the hearing, Judge said to me, “If you don’t get those kids to their father’s house, and that includes having the Sheriff drag them out of their bedrooms, I may have to decide you are an unfit mother and tell social services to take custody of your children and put them in foster care.”
    I have since learned that this Judge is infamous in this town for making these kinds of statements to women. One woman told me that, despite her work schedule being from 1-9 p.m., the judge told her that “unless you make your children available (drive them to) their father’s, I may have to take them away from you.”
    I live in fear. Once my son leaves home, my ex-husband should, by all rights, begin paying child support to me for our daughter. He will take me to court again and I have no hope of keeping her. If I make a complaint against the judge, he will take revenge. If I do nothing, he will take revenge.
    Thank you for reading this,
    Cary Zigrossi

    • hennorama

      Cary Zigrossi — child custody/visitation cases are notoriously emotional and difficult for all the parties involved, as is clear in your description.

      Have you attempted to publicize your views about the judge?

      • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

        Thank you for your response. The town is too small to go public: twenty thousand residents, probably. I have experience in family court (I also have a 29 year-old). I have always found the judges to be overworked but fair.

        • hennorama

          Cary Zigrossi — my question was related to the fact that the judge is an elected official, and misconduct and/or bias, if made known to voters, could affect his reelection prospects.

          If indeed the judge is, as you wrote, “contemptuous, rude, accusatory and unfair,” the public has a right to know.

          Of course, since you are subject to his jurisdiction, you need be concerned about possible retribution, should he find out you were the source of any negative publicity.

          Can you move to another jurisdiction?

          • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

            Thank you again for your interest. No, I am not alllowed to leave the county I reside in since I have joint custody with my ex-husband.

            It is my bad luck, and believe me, as a former whistleblower on NYS, I am not afraid of coming out against corrupt practices, but when it comes to my children everything changes.

            In peace,
            Cary

          • hennorama

            Cary Zigrossi — best wishes in your struggles.

  • kodfish

    Just heard the guest comment on how women have to think about safety so much. When I was in law school in Concord NH in the late 80′s I overheard a group of young men intentionally saying so that I could hear it “let’s go rape her”. That was terrifying. Another episode involved two men driving by me in a pickup truck very slowly, turning around, and doing it again. This was in a heaving residential neighborhood. I darted away and hid in a yard. Another time in Boston at college a man asked me for directions and was masturbating in his car. THE POINT IS- I thought this discussion did not pertain to me- and these few incidents were quickly recalled.

    • JP_Finn

      I am sorry to hear about your experiences, and agree that they are disturbing and exhibit unacceptable male behavior. As a man, I can testify that “not all men”–and hopefully most men–do not behave this way; however, it must be acknowledged at the same time that a man will never face the prospect of a strange woman approaching him and acting in any kind of analogous way as what you and so many other women are treated by some men. It seems like there may be some underlying biological or male psychological factors that spur this kind of behavior–and some males are raised to contain or channel their raw emotions and desires in positive ways, while others are not. How can men and women both work to better socialize male citizens in our society to control their behavior and attitude toward women?

      • kodfish

        Oh absolutely- I regular advocate for men, am happily married to a great husband and have a great son. It is interesting to see his 14 yr old take on all this. There is a confluence of many issues here- and perceptions can be quite different based upon one’s experiences.

      • Bricksy
      • red_donn

        The major adjustment that needs to be made in the minds of men, including the vast numbers who rush to say “not all men rape,” is to emphasize a traditionally masculine trait: protectiveness.

        Many traditional masculine traits are extremely extroverted in nature, they impose themselves on the world around them. The flipside to this is that power must be justified by a purpose, to be considered moral – hence the accrual of power to protect those without it resonates with the “masculine ideal,” insofar as that exists.

        When it comes to women, the first rule that any young man on a date should know is that it is his duty to protect her. She has put her trust in him, including a physical trust. Any man knows that, if another man attacks a woman he is with, it is his duty to come to her aid. That protection of her, however, must also include defending her from parts of his self, his baser urges that may rise up. He should likewise take pride in carrying out his duty of controlling himself just as he would in putting another aggressive man in his place.

  • mngeekgal

    Gas-lighting – an important concept. Your experience is crazy…invalid. Only those who are entitled, with power, can wield that weapon.

    • geraldfnord

      I’m sympathetic, but the existence of gas-lighting doesn’t preclude the existence of people whose ‘experiences’, which are both the events and their perceptions, are what sane, reasonable, people could call ‘misconstrued’ or ‘at variance with reality’.

      As for only those with power being able to wield it, I’d disagree: power helps, but anyone can do it, just with different levels of effectiveness…much of this conversation _depends_ on saying that many men’s reality-as-experienced, e.g. women being bad for not having sex with them, were invalid…and rightly so, because (at least sticking to something like social norms) some of it _is_.

  • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

    Second submission sent in without names

  • Sidney

    The violence perpetuated by mentally ill patients and gun laws are not mutually exclusive!!! These are strongly intertwined! What current laws on the books or common sense practices will stop a mentally ill person (who is currently receiving the best mental health care) from going to a gun show and buying an AR-15? It’s time for the gun lobbyist to accept the simple fact that background checks WILL make a difference.

    • Bigtruck

      Sidney, you and your logic will will be shouted down very soon by the gun lobby shills

      • Sidney

        Yep, that’s all they do. Shout and instill fear. They are bullies who only care about money in their pockets and political cloud.
        NRA logic = Lets arm all sorority girls.

    • Enuff_of_this

      Really? How?

      • Sidney

        How? Really?
        What good is improved mental health care if we don’t have laws in the books that prevent those people receiving adequate mental health care from buying weapons from private dealers or online retail shops? These merchants, the last time I checked are not required by any law to do a background check on buyers?

        • Enuff_of_this

          And just where and how do you think your government is going to get a hold of protected health information in the first place?

          • Sidney

            Is that the next NRA excuse? We shouldn’t do background checks because it may violate HIPPA? Ridiculous. I am a healthcare worker and our industry has dozens of ways to act on protected medical information without releasing it. It happens everyday.

  • Ed75

    “If someone looks at a women with lust, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Jesus

    • J__o__h__n

      The NSA is nothing compared to god’s thought police.

      • Ed75

        That’s true … God is closer to us than we are to ourselves, if we allow him to be.

  • Salty

    What the heck is all the “hashtag” talk? So we can use some hashtag to make us feel like we are doing something. “Hey, that was bad! I’ll show them… hashtag! hashtag! hashtag! Boy, now I feel so much better.”

    • geraldfnord

      If this becomes a substitute for action, yes, that’s so, and I’m sure a fair number of people act so—but many don’t. ‘Necessary’ (or ‘useful’, in this case) is not the same as ‘sufficient’.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Twitter is how a lot of people communicate with each other. That’s all.

  • John Roberts

    Western nations have comparable numbers (per capita) of depressed or mentally disturbed people, sociopaths & misogynists. The only reason the west has just a fraction of the number of gun deaths (per capita) of those in the US is gun control.

    • geraldfnord

      And our inability to do anything about guns is rooted in trends rooted in our conception of masculinity, with strong trends stemming from a mythologised Frontier and the sort of culture explored well in James Weeb’s “Born Fighting” and (less laudingly) W.J. Cash’s “The Mind of the South”, as well as a change from the historically unusual condition of even a lower class [white] man’s being able to support a family to our current conditions. (Many men, and not a few women, grew up believing that that were all a man were really good-for, and likely many men constructed themselves such that that really _were_ all they were good-for, getting by on their necessity.)

  • Mari McAvenia

    Trigger warning! A lot of what Soraya Chemaly is saying will trigger a flight or fight response in females who have experienced sexual violence perpetrated by men and boys. Fact of life. The fact mother and father usually never explain to us in realistic terms. We women find out how treacherous daily life can be when we walk down the street, alone, for the first time. We need to share our experiences in safety. This forum is not “safe” for many of us, today.

  • tuxedobob

    So… women. What the hell do you want me to do?

    I don’t live in a neighborhood where catcalls happen. I can’t be there to monitor my wife’s internet usage 100% of the time to make sure she doesn’t get called names online.

    Yet you tell me I’m part of the rape culture because I don’t do anything about it. Well I’m not exposed to it (and as far as I can tell, neither is my wife), so how exactly is it still my fault?

    • mngeekgal

      Not your fault. Your opportunity. When you see males…your peers…acting in a way that is ugly…take a stand!

      • tuxedobob

        Yeah, but I *don’t*. I don’t see it; it doesn’t happen. I don’t hang out with the type of people who do that sort of thing.

        But I’m still blamed for it.

        • mngeekgal

          Lucky you and the other men, women, children around you. Think about how to propagate that experience.

          OR…self-reflect…are you missing something…failing to see something..

          • tuxedobob

            And this is the frustrating part. The idea of someone *not* being a part of this is so absurd and alienating to some people that if I claim I don’t experience it, there *must* be something *I’m* missing, and I’m secretly a part of it after all.

            As for how to propogate this? Don’t live in the city, I guess? For women, don’t go anywhere without a man?

            In the broadcast they’re currently telling men they need to be responsible for policing other men, implying that women can’t do it (at least, not alone). So we’re left with women being dependent on men, which sounds hilariously sexist.

          • mngeekgal

            You hit it on the head… if you see it…call it out…open your eyes to the experience of others. If women feel they can’t go somewhere without a male…men are not doing their job to hold themselves accountable for being upstanding citizens.

          • tuxedobob

            No, we’re just not policing *other* men.

            Look, I live in a fairly rural area. Boston is about a 2-hour drive from my house. I don’t think it should be my responsibility to hang around Boston on the weekends and make sure women are being treated well.

            At some point, it’d be nice if women realized that, hey, the problem’s not gone, but at least some of us are doing what we’re supposed to, there isn’t any more we can do (or at least, it’s not reasonable to expect us to do more), and then say, hey, thanks for not being an asshole.

          • mngeekgal

            I agree, being a white knight/crusader in Boston outside your ordinary visits there is not your responsibility. But *if* you are in Boston, or *if* you find yourself in a conversation with your peers that are behaving in ways – I think the most coherent word is – dehumanizing/objectifying women – that is when you can become #notallmen!

          • Bricksy

            If you tell your buddy it’s not cool to tell a rape joke, that does not make me suddenly dependent on you. It means you’re fighting the same thing I am.

          • tuxedobob

            Sometimes rape jokes are funny, though. At least, that’s what feminist site Jezebel tells me.

            http://jezebel.com/5881785/a-rape-joke-that-will-actually-make-you-laugh

          • Bricksy

            They are never funny. Also what is not funny are jokes about men being raped. Rape is never funny.

          • tuxedobob

            There’s no subject that’s “never funny.” Yes, I get the whole “trigger thoughts” thing where simply hearing the word “rape” causes women to relive the incident. I imagine war veterans suffer the same thing. And yet no one’s up in arms that football still has “long bomb” passes.

          • J__o__h__n

            Every subject can be funny. I’ll concede that 99% of rape jokes are more about demeaning women than actually attempting to be funny.

          • Lea Tapp

            Still pretending that you can’t tell punching up from punching down?

          • tuxedobob

            And that kind of dodged the point. If I’m not there with my wife (or any woman), I can’t stop catcalling. So… if women don’t want to be subjected to that sort of thing, they just have to make sure they always go somewhere with a man who can.

            Women need to be more willing to stand up for *themselves*, and if you want to be effective about it, do it in a way where standing up for yourself doesn’t automatically put someone else down.

    • Lea Tapp

      What the hell do we want you to do?
      As if you are being put upon?
      How’s about you stay out of comment threads about women being murdered so that you don’t whine and try to make this about you and how mean you think women are?

      • tuxedobob

        Right, three men and two women were killed, but it’s only the women who died that we actually care about.

  • Davesix6

    This obviously sick person killed three men and three women, in his rant posted on youtube he talks equally hateful about both genders, yet somehow this is about how sexist our society is?

    There are a lot of men and women who are sick and tired of the sexism and hatred and constant blame game that are the products of feminism.

    • nj_v2

      Lemmie guess; another insecure, reflexively defensive white guy.

      • Davesix6

        Is that the best sexist remark you’ve got? Cause it’s pretty week and proves my point.

        • jefe68

          OK, not into looking in the mirror much?

      • HonestDebate1

        Oh good, you weaseled in a racial component.

    • Lea Tapp

      You read his manifesto and cannot even admit that the killer was inspired to murder due to his misogyny?
      Feminism is just a “blame game?
      You just proved Lewis’s Law.

      • Davesix6

        He murdered three men, what is the word for hatred of men?

        • Lea Tapp

          He killed them because he thought they’d try to stop him. He says he murdered out of his hatred of women. Why do you want so badly for something else to blame?

          • Davesix6

            Lea, I’m not the one looking for something or someone to blame.

        • Bill98

          “Misandry”, and you’ll find many examples of it in this comments section.

        • HonestDebate1

          Misandry if it’s by women. Otherwise it’s just hate. In fact it all is.

        • cloudiah

          The only reason the female death toll wasn’t higher is that he couldn’t gain entrance (though he tried) to the sorority where he intended to “slaughter” every woman inside.

      • brettearle

        You’re not taking into account his Mental Illness.

        You do Feminism a disservice when you do not take that major factor into account.

        In fact, if you don’t take it into account, you exploit the critical issue of Mental Illness.

        • Lea Tapp

          I know plenty of people with mental illnesses. They don;t obsess about how evil women are and how they should be punished. That’s what misogynists do.
          Meanwhile, what mental illness? Unless you are qualified to diagnose him, I don’t know that he was mentally ill.

          I’m not exploiting mental illness by not blaming this misogynist murderer’s actions on mental illness. That’s what you are doing.

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree and posed the question earlier. In the context of the theme that seems to include changing the laws to make it harder for the mentally ill to get guns, I am not sure how it would have helped here.

      • jefe68

        It’s called denial. Which seems the case for way to many men commenting this forum today.

    • mngeekgal

      The victory is that feminism makes people (men and women) feel uncomfortable and do some self-reflection. There is no hatred, there is the sense of how do we work together to make for a better world for EVERYONE…men, women, children, all races, GLBT, etc.

      • Davesix6

        And exactly what type of self-reflection does feminism inspire?
        Let me guess, it causes one to ponder all the grave injustices that women have experienced and how one can work to make women’s lives better?
        Believe it or not the world does not revolve around women. I’m sure you will find that to be a hateful comment, so be it.

    • OnPointComments

      Elliot Rodger was mentally ill, and 14 years of therapy didn’t help him. He is not representative of any segment of society, nor is any segment of society responsible for his mental illness.

  • Emily311

    Feeling unsafe while walking is more of a problem regarding crime. And being this upset over a comment someone made minimizes real problems. These would include problems with the Violence Against Women Act, attitudes toward rape, and more.

  • Ed75

    His statement would be a satirical if he weren’t serious.

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Even using the term “girls” for all females is part of the issue.

    • Lea Tapp

      All women, Neil.
      Don’t call women “females”.

      • warryer

        hahaha. all women are females and all females are women. Anything else is ridiculous word play.

        • tuxedobob

          Well, girls aren’t women. “Women” implies adult.

        • Lea Tapp

          No, actually it isn’t, but it’s unsurprising in this thread about how misogyny kills women, to find a man laughing at a woman trying to explain how not to sound like a sexist jerk and describing asking to be referred to with basic respect as “ridiculous word play”.

          Lewis’s Law strikes again.

          • warryer

            ok so explain the difference.

        • Raspberryswirl

          Try educating yourself and take a course in gender issues.

          • warryer

            Gender issues is a lie. There are males (men) and females (women).

          • Raspberryswirl

            and ignorance is ignorance….

          • warryer

            don’t forget the dancing jesters who make fools of themselves.

          • jefe68

            Stupid is as stupid does.
            –Forrest Gump

          • warryer

            all this name calling yet you have not disproved my statement.

      • tuxedobob

        Yay, we can’t even agree on what to call non-men!

      • J__o__h__n

        What is the objection to female? I prefer to use male when I refer to myself.

        • Lea Tapp

          It sounds like you are referring to livestock. Female is an adjective. Women is a noun. You could have said, “women and girls”.

          • J__o__h__n

            No, it is both a noun and an adjective.

          • Raspberryswirl

            No. It is an adjective. When men can certainly be feminine, it is very telling that you refer to yourself using a term that specifically states you are virile, manly, macho; manlike, mannish.

          • J__o__h__n

            You are factually incorrect. Consult a dictionary. I use “male” rather than “man” as it culturally has less of those connotations and is more neutral. How many macho men argue over grammar?

          • Raspberryswirl

            Okay, John. That’s factually fine with me.

            I’m ready to leave-I push the fact in front of me, Facts lost-Facts are never what they seem to be, Nothing there!-No information left of any kind, Lifting my head-Looking for danger signs…

            -Talking Heads

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        I was trying to include actual girls, so I said females.

  • hennorama

    What’s the role of easy access to pornography in these cases?

    • Lea Tapp

      None at all.

      • brettearle

        You mean pornography doesn’t engender frustration?

        • tuxedobob

          It usually engenders satisfaction, if you’re doing it right.

      • adks12020

        I don’t think you can discount it as having a role. It’s certainly not the root cause but pornography is the definition of misogynistic. It’s men doing whatever they want to women, however they want, and treating women like objects for their amusement/pleasure. I could see how some might translate that to real life not recognizing, or maybe just not acknowledging, the fact that it’s supposed to be fantasy. There is pornography of all types but the vast majority has men in dominant roles with women as objects.

      • hennorama

        Lea Tapp — thank you for your response.

        Implicit in my question is that a great deal of pornography is shown from the point of view of the faceless male, allowing the male viewer to more easily put himself in the performer’s place. In addition, a great deal of pornography shows females in subservient roles, at the male’s beck and call, and there only for the male’s sexual pleasure. There also are frequent portrayals of sexual activities that could be described as somewhat violent, wherein the female performers are shown to take pleasure from pain.

        To dismiss any role of pornography out of hand seems both simplistic and unrealistic.

        Thanks again for your response.

  • skelly74

    Misogyny, Misandry. It’s a double edged sword intellectually, but mostly physical in men because they are physically stronger animals.

    • tuxedobob

      That’s why women are more likely to use a weapon in domestic violence incidents. (Incidentally, they’re also more likely to initiate them.)

    • Lea Tapp

      A world of “No”. Men do not abuse women because women are weak. Men abuse women because society tells them that they can and even should. When boys learn to solve their problems through violence and that any feelings other than anger are “effeminate” which is bad because women are less worthy of respect than men, you get a society where men beat women.

      • skelly74

        Ok. Women are superior animals.

        Another reason can be women have adapted to survive as a physically weaker animal through non-physical means. See last sentence.

  • dt03044

    Widely shared by most men in society?? Not the people I know. These “in cels” sound like a fringe group to me.

    • Lea Tapp

      Yes, misogynist beliefs are common in our society. Yes, it is common for men to think of women as less than fully human. When so many women tell you that with hastags like #yesallwomen and #everydaysexism and you STILL choose to believe otherwise, that is misogyny.

  • twenty_niner

    Prepare to enter liberal nirvana as we extrapolate from the particular case to the general case. Here, we get mentally pleasure ourselves as we discover that all men, especially the white devil, are repressed misogynists and really only differ in how our disdain and privilege manifests itself.

    • geraldfnord

      So far the conversation seems to be focussed [sic] on the extremely _un_-repressed misogyny of some…though, yes, it’s very easy to lump all non-zero levels of a bad trait together.

  • Ed

    This is what happens when we objectify women.

  • Coastghost

    “Violence against women” is a concession of enduring female vulnerability EVEN WHILE feminists and their cheerleaders assert their groundless faith in “gender equality”.
    Males and females are not opposite sexes any more than they are exact gender equals. The assertion of gender equality rather widely ignores human physiology.

  • brettearle

    I am sorry for your painful experiences.

    But don’t forget the hundreds of men, who pass you every day, who don’t bother you at all.

    • Bricksy

      Am I supposed to give hundreds of men a gold star for not attacking me?

      Funny MST3K quote (“Girl from Lover’s Lane” episode): “I’ll give you ten dollars for each time you don’t hit me.”

      Great quote I recently saw:

      “You say not all men are monsters?

      Imagine a bowl of M&Ms. 10% of them are poisoned.

      Go ahead. Eat a handful.

      Not all M&Ms are poison.”

      The most productive thing men can do is listen to women’s experiences. Don’t laugh at rape jokes, but also don’t say nothing. When someone tells a rape joke, call him out. When someone belittles a woman, verbally call him out. Demonstrate through your words and frowning face and rejection of this casual microaggressive talk that you don’t accept it. Teach your sons about consent. Listen listen listen to women and do not feel compelled to correct or add to what they are saying. Just listen.

      • brettearle

        Because of your outrage, you missed my point.

        It’s nobody’s fault if you trust no men at all.

        • Bricksy

          When did i say I trust no men at all? You do not listen. You are part of the problem. Goodbye.

        • Bricksy

          You get a gold star. You’ve never tried to rape me, you’ve never hurled catcalls at me, you’ve never attacked me in a supermarket, you’ve never threatened my life while I was walking down the street. You are an amazing, awesome human being. I am glad to have you in the world. Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. I’m not worthy.

  • AliceOtter33

    Every time a woman intentionally or unintentionally humiliates a man – even a man she may think she knows well – she rolls the dice, she takes her life in her hands.

    • Mari McAvenia

      Yet, when men humiliate women it is always done intentionally. It’s very difficult to gauge the level of emotional vulnerability in any man on any given day. Part of the training of males involves denying his own emotional vulnerability. When a boy feels his “soul” on the line due to feelings he has has been trained NOT to feel, it can lead to an extreme outburst of anger. It’s easier for boys to get angry than it is for them to cry. Men need to teach other men that feelings of sadness and rejection are natural and normal. They are not good reasons to go out and kill people at random.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Newsflash: Women intentionally humiliate men all the time.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Why would I cry when it’s easier smile, say something sarcastic, witty and biting and merely leave? :)

    • Raspberryswirl

      And date rape is one example. At some point, I feel like I just don’t trust men (as a group) anymore. And, it is so isolating and an unwanted feeling. Like the caller insinuated, constant messages and acts that my gender is a liability feeds a growing frustration in me that is becoming an anger. Screw classifying me a feminist, I’m angry as an individual!

    • twenty_niner

      “she rolls the dice, she takes her life in her hands”

      Good point. Spread the word.

  • injun2

    I’d love to hear Camille Paglia’s take on this. The host and two guests basically agree with each other

  • http://batman-news.com Cary Zigrossi

    I had a prof in my graduate program (a smart, African-American male), who was very comfortable, when talking about the “power of words” saying the word “c—” over and over, but would only say “the n-word.”
    Why is one worse (or better) than the other?

    • twenty_niner

      See if you can get your money back.

  • wgp2

    Based on some of the general comments below and reactionary defensiveness, it appears that many of the male commenters are threatened by the mere fact of talking about the reality of the negative impacts of a male-dominated society and culture can have on women. With comments like “what can I do, I’m not a raper?” and “my wife doesn’t experience sexism, as far as I can tell” speaks volumes to the deafness a majority of men have to the prevalence of the male-dominated culture and culture of violence that exists. Getting angry at women about bringing up these issues does NOTHING to reduce or remedy the situation that women are violated everyday. Get motivated to push back against the culture of violence that you’ve been raised in and inculcated in. Men have the greater responsibility in this issue.

    If you see a woman getting harassed and you do nothing about it or you laugh at a sexist joke or belittle a woman then yes, you are enabling that behavior and subtly condoning that behavior. Just because you (as a male) haven’t been exposed to it (or most likely are oblivious to its prevalence) doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen to the women in your life. And maybe the reason your wife, girlfriend, sister, mother hasn’t told you about her encounters with such behavior is because she doesn’t feel you will understand. Maybe you should ask her. By doing nothing we (men) enable such misogyny to continue.

    • mngeekgal

      OMG…this is an example of a male who “gets it.” And by the way, your getting it for the one instance of harassment/domination of women also factors into racism, classism and other ills in our society. You understand that We, as a COMMUNITY, can support ourselves and do better. Win-Win!

    • Coastghost

      I completely agree that men do have greater responsibility in all these areas: but this concession craters rather deeply every assertion of “gender equality” being proffered.

      • wgp2

        Why is taking responsibility for the culture we perpetual crater assertions for ‘gender equality’? The very fact that we have to have this conversation illustrates that 50% of the population isn’t equal when it comes to not feeling like they’re in danger all the time. When your wife, sister, daughter, mother, girl friend, aunts, nieces, coworkers can go through a majority of their life without being harassed, sexualized or marginalized simply because they’re female, then ‘gender equality’ hasn’t been achieved.

        When the women in your life can feel as safe as you do walking down a street at night, go to a bar without being groped, and work without overt sexism then they’re not “equal”. Equality is more than just a paycheck or voting or employment. Being equal includes respect.

        • francomaistre

          Women ought to feel more safe when they walk down the street because it turns out they actually are more safe walking down the street. Setting sex crime aside for a moment (most of which is perpetrated by a relation of the victim) men turn out to be 76.8% of murder victims, 90.5% of drug crime victims, and 94.6% of gang-related crime victims. In pretty much every category the government tracks statistics for, men, particularly poor black men, are the most victimized by gender and race. Whether women “feel” more safe gets more into questions of perception and risk assessment than actual crime statistics, which say that women ought to feel more safe than they do.

          • wgp2

            Street crime statistics have dropped over the last several decades and precipitously so the last decade in particular but don’t conflate that with the general issue that women face daily. Whether real or perceived. I know plenty of women that have been harassed on the job or groped out in public. For them, it’s not necessarily a question of overt crime but overt violation of their personal space and person.

            I think that the feelings and perceptions of ‘safety’ for women shouldn’t be marginalized. They’re very legitimate. For some or many women, it may not be simply feeling safe walking down the street, it might be not wanting to be cat-called or hit on.

          • red_donn

            As a large, and apparently rather aggressive-looking, man, I have found that people are considerably more polite and respectful towards me than most. However, having lived as a white person in a crack neighborhood, I was able to work out an anology:

            There is a tension and readiness for trouble that any man, walking through a poor and violent neighborhood, particularly of a different ethnicity, will feel on encountering a group of other men. In a poor and violent neighborhood, standing out can mean that you get tested by any such group that might happen to be looking for trouble, and every man can relate to that feeling.

            That is the exact feeling that most women have towards all sorts of men in all sorts of neighborhoods.

            Also, the violent crime statistics you just gave are a terrible set to try and relate to street violence. Gang crimes and a great deal of violent crime aren’t typically directed indiscriminately – there’s usually some degree of mutual hostility involved at some point. Being attacked or harassed by a stranger as you walk down the street doesn’t fit neatly into generalized statistics.

    • HonestDebate1

      I think people are inclined to step in when they see a woman being abused. This was interesting (language warning) :

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM

      • wgp2

        True. I think *most* people would. But sometimes in crowds, there occurs the phenomenon where everyone stands around waiting for someone else to do something.

        It’s the abuse that doesn’t happen out in public that’s harder to prevent.

        And when it happens to someone you love, it’s harder still because you feel anger, inadequacy and pain for not being there to help or prevent it.

    • francomaistre

      I agree with you. The only question I find myself asking myself is: “What does this have to do with the tragedy in Isla Vista?” Misogyny is a worthy problem, and feminists have a right to speak to it, but by all accounts their advice wouldn’t have gotten Elliot Rodger the help he needed to prevent this tragedy. He was a profoundly out of touch and mentally ill young man.

      • wgp2

        I think the connection to Isla Vista is the release of the manifesto and the statements that Elliot made in the past with regards to wanting to put them in concentration camps and watch them slowly die because he felt they were a plague and vicious evil animals.

        And you’re right, there is probably nothing that would have helped prevent Elliot doing what he did. But, I think the underlying issue, we as guys, need to be better at understanding how bad it can be for women on a daily basis.

        • whatever

          Very honestly, I am telling you the absolute truth here. About 20 years ago a crazy man in his car repeatedly tried to run me down. He followed me through LA and into a parking lot and tried to kill me. Eventually the police came and he was subdued.

          It was clear to everyone he was crazy.

          He kept talking about the planes and the aliens who were trying to kill him.

          That is an absolutely true story.

          Now this part is not true. But this part is commentary on the logic of your argument.

          Since that day I have resolved to shutdown NASA and the FAA clearly the underlying problems of that totes completely crazy man’s delusions.

      • ahermit

        And if he was a profoundly out of touch young man who wrote a 140 page manifesto describing how he wanted to kill Jews and then set out to attack a Synagogue would we be questioning the role of anti-semitism in his crime?

        Somehow I doubt it…

  • SherylT

    I have not been able to walk in the woods alone since I was attacked while walking my dog in the woods as a teenager 40+ years ago. I don’t know any woman who makes it cradle to grave without some kind of negative experience at the hand of a man.

    • Bill98

      Men are, by far, the majority of the victims of violence. So, you know more men than women who will be victimized in their lifetime. It’s a tragedy for any person, and is not exclusively a problem for women.

      • red_donn

        Yes, because taking a punch in the face during a bar fight is clearly of the same nature as being raped in the woods.

        Consider what you just wrote. Would you ever, ever in your life, have dared to say this in reply to a victim who had just told you her story in person?

        If so, then I hope you never use terms of chivalry, gentlemanly conduct, or human decency in your own defense, for you sorely lack those qualities. If not, then take a moment to ponder why you felt it was okay to make such a reply online.

        Dehumanizing victims, ignoring their pain for a self-serving and reactionary response, is a coward’s way out. It costs a strong man nothing to recognize that women suffer a different kind of violence than that inflicted between males. He can take it as a responsibility to do what he can to help protect women, even if that only means listening and attempting to understand.

    • whoo123

      Ditto to your last sentence: if there’s mistrust, it’s not because ‘the feminist movement’ converted us.

      One in three women has been the victim of rape, attempted rape, stalking, or a combination.

  • francomaistre

    I find the characterization of the Isla Vista killings as an embodiment of cultural misogyny specious on two fronts: Firstly, Elliot Rodger has a history of mental illness tracing back to childhood, and was a social outcast in his own words. His actions are no more a reflection of social paradigms than Aurora or Columbine or Newtown. Secondly, in spite of Elliot Rodger’s words, the majority of his victims were men. Characterizing him and his actions as a danger to women exclusively is a deliberate mischaracterization of what he actually did and how we ought to respond to it.

    Men are victims in this tragedy: Of mental illness, of murder, of feminist blamestorming. I wish we could acknowledge that fact instead of directing focus to female victimhood and male blame.

    • wgp2

      “Men are victims in this tragedy”. Nice deflection. So the women who died deserved it? Because of “feminist blamestorming”? Those men died because they were standing next to women. Who were the primary target for Elliot’s ‘rage’. Women and feminism didn’t make Elliot ‘violent’ or mentally ill.

      • OnPointComments

        The men were killed in Rodger Elliot’s apartment, and weren’t standing next to any women.

        Men and misogyny didn’t make Elliot violent or mentally ill. He had mental health issues for most of his life.

        When you choose to blame an entire segment of society for the acts of a deranged individual, you choose to blame no one. Rodger Elliot, a mentally ill individual, is responsible for his own acts.

        • wgp2

          Elliot had mental issues and suffered from misogyny when he explicitly states he wants to corral them into concentration camps and watch them die. But you also have to understand that when a guy like that “believes” he simply has to ‘have game’ and the women will come running to him, that is very much a reflection of the male-dominated culture we reside in.

          To say that, we as a society and community, don’t have a responsibility to address the issues of violence and misogyny in our culture, then one is choosing to not to be a part of the solution. Elliot is responsible for his own acts and his own views of manliness but that doesn’t lessen the obligation as members of a civil society to be proactive and speak up, act up against such acts of violence – be they a man or a woman.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Mental illness was the ONLY issue. Grow up.

    • cloudiah

      He intended to “slaughter” every single woman inside a sorority, but failed to gain entry though he tried.

      • francomaistre

        He killed all his male roommates before he even left the house. We can impute all sorts of presumed motives to his actions, but the fact remains that the male victims outweigh the female, but nobody wants to talk about them.

        • cloudiah

          He very explicitly told us what his motives are. I am mystified by way so many people reject his own described motives for his actions. (Actually, I am not that mystified; it’s quite obviously self-serving on your part.)

          • francomaistre

            This isn’t about me, it’s about him. The actual outcomes of his killing spree don’t even match his infamous words. Nobody, including you, even wants to talk about his male victims. He was a profoundly isolated person with a long history of mental illness. His words can only carry so much weight.

          • cloudiah

            Right now, we’re talking about Rodger. And if he had written a long screed about killing Jews, gone to a synagogue to do that but failed to gain entry, and then killed a few other people who weren’t Jewish — we would still be pointing out that his motivation was anti-Semitism.

          • francomaistre

            This is demonstrably untrue. When Fraizer Glen Cross attempted this very act in Kansas City last month, there was no chorus of Jewish writers shaming gentiles for condoning white supremacist patriarchy or throwing around hateful labels like “white rage”, “white violence”, “white entitlement” or indiscriminate blaming of the white race for the crimes.

            Like Rodgers, Cross’s crime was senseless and didn’t even fit his words, caught white Christians in the crossfire and victimized them right along with the supposed Jewish targets. Innocent men were victims of Rodger’s crime in the same way innocent Christians were victims of Cross’s. I wish the women pushing this campaign in the wake of the Isla Vista killings would acknowledge the male victims the same way we acknowledged the Christian victims in Kansas. But for the most part they deliberately avoid doing so.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Your comments are so delusional, irrational and pathetic. How ironic.

  • Steve_in_Vermont

    So, all that’s been said about the need for change leaves us with these questions.
    What mechanism will we use and who sets the curriculum?

    • mngeekgal

      Good open-ended question. This is not easy and recognizing that is a very good start.

    • twenty_niner

      In “1984″, a rat cage affixed to the face seemed to work well.

    • Raspberryswirl

      For the question(s) to be on the table is a big step. The conversation must continue and strengthen. We need to encourage women to speak up and speak out.

  • amazonjn

    Go to a Catholic or other misogynistic religious institutions and witness the throngs of women perpetuating their submissive, victim, guilt culture.

  • nj_v2

    Excellent point made by a caller on the systemic/institutional/cultural aspects of these issues. In addition to sexism, this also applies to a different extent and in different ways to violence, racism, relationship to nature, expectations of technology, etc.

    Violence and sexism are normalized by both government (constant war, glamorization or war by armed-services recruitment ads, police-state activities etc., etc.) and by “popular” “culture” (violent movies, teevee shows, computer games, etc., etc.).

    Mental health is viewed as a stigma, deterring people from getting treatment. And, even then, behavior-changing drugs are overprescribed as a treatment.

    Add in an economic system that prioritizes profit and wealth accumulation over most everything else, and we have layers of systemic disfunction to navigate. Some people just aren’t up to the task.

  • Mike

    These people seem to be living in the ’70s and ’80s; I feel that the world has passed them by. I don’t know any male that fits in with the negative stereotype they are perpetuating. I’m guessing that the journalists themselves don’t either.

    • adks12020

      Are you serious? You don’t know ANY males that fit into that stereotype? Have you met many men in your life? Personally, I try not to be around men like that but I sure as heck know a lot of them and meet them all the time.

      • Mike

        Actually, I do get out much. And I’ve become very involved in gender issues in the last few years. Why? Because I’ve become tired of corporate America and our school systems trying to feminize men and boys. The real joke here is that while the mainstream media is constantly telling us how sexist we are, the major institutions of our society have been oppressing men by demonizing traditional masculinity.

        • levi

          Do you know why you don’t know any men that fit the stereotype? It is because you are the stereotype

          • Mike

            No, I’m not. I’m not saying that women should be oppressed. I’m saying we have to allow the men to be men. Of course, we have to punish criminal behavior. and correct our boys if they hurt someone. Absolutely. But, I have a boy and a girl, and I have seen first-hand how the boys are really being hurt in school because the school system is criminalizing behaviors that were just normal when I was a kid. I went to one of the most liberal colleges in the country, and an equally liberal graduate university. I supported my wife through 8 years of a PhD, and the result is that she has 2 masters degrees and a PhD. I have 2 masters degrees. She makes more money than I do. I think it’s great. I’m glad that she’s happy, productive and achieving. I just don’t want to be turned into a girl. Does that equate with the stereotype you’re talking about?

          • Mike

            For example, I’m a pretty expressive guy, but I don’t express my emotions and feelings in the way that women do. I’ve had a woman tell me that I was JUST AFRAID TO FACE MY FEELINGS. This is quite demeaning, and it reflects the fact that women don’t understand men, and don’t recognize that men and women are different. So they are using pressure, chastisement, and shaming to get men to be more like women. Women view their constitution as being the ideal, correct way of being. I’m getting real and saying — OK, enough of this. I’m a guy, you’re a girl. Accept this and stop trying to change me.

          • Mike

            Let me share this with you — it might help explain where I’m coming from. I was a Psychology major in college in the ’80s, and I took a senior seminar called “Gender and Psychology”. I wrote my thesis for that seminar on “Gender Differences in Management Style”. I looked at all of the research being done on this topic at the time, and the gist of it was that women were complaining that, in the business world, they were being rated as inferior managers. But the key insight they brought to the table in the literature was that women were being JUDGED as to the quality of their management ability by using criteria of assessment made up by men. Implicit in this feminist research was the assumption that there was a male approach to leadership and managing people (generally, being more distant from the people you manage, and directing them rather than getting their buy-in and co-directing together) and a female approach (generally, being more relationship oriented and mutually determining with the employee what they should do). So the literature was saying “Stop this — women are not men. Let the women manage based upon women’s values”. Well, since then we have come full circle, and the female qualities are being used to judge men. As a result the men are being “feminized”. I’m saying what the feminists were saying in the ’80s — men and women are different. Let the men be men. Don’t judge them using female values.

          • levi

            Yes, keep talking about yourself. Very masculine of you

          • Mike

            OK, you can’t stay on topic so you’re devolving into offensive statements. Got it. I’m laying out very rational, logical arguments. I would LOVE to hear your response. I’m all ears. Type as much as you want — I’d love to read what you have to say. Please.

          • jefe68

            I was going to offer you a shovel for the hole you’re digging, but I see you don’t need one. You’ve moved on to a backhoe.

          • jefe68

            Are you aware of how your comments might be perceived as a tad on the angry side? Because if that is not your intention, they do come across that way.

          • levi

            So you don’t want to be turned into a girl? Oh now I get it!!!! Cause girls have traits that are undesirable in a HUMAN.
            Obviously education has nothing to do with being a decent human being

          • Mike

            That’s not what I said. You really are reflexively projecting this mainstream media programming on to me. I didn’t say that girls have traits that are undesirable in a human. I love girls… A LOT. I’m saying that men and women are different (how absurd is it that I have to explain this), and this diversity, this complementarity, exists for a reason. I want to live my own constitution, and, likewise, allow women to live theirs. That said, if other men want to embrace that feminine side, great for them. I just don’t want it forced on guys who don’t want it. Especially if it’s being pushed on us in very insidious ways — by telling us that WE ARE this Santa Barbara shooter guy.

          • levi

            What the hell is a feminine side? Just the fact you are saying it means that you are one of the stereotypes. How absurd is it that I have to explain this?

          • Mike

            OK, so what I hear you saying is that there is no psychological difference between men and women, that there is no male and female, and that I am sexist for asserting that there is. Is that accurate? If not, could you explain more precisely what you mean?

          • Amanda

            I think what he’s trying to say is that there’s no difference in the VALUE of men or women/male or female. You strongly implied that there was something WRONG with being a girl. Perhaps that wasn’t your intention but that was what I perceived.

          • Mike

            I think you should reread my comments carefully — I didn’t say that at all. It should be very clear that I didn’t say that. I’m simply saying that there is a difference between men and women. We should not push on women, in a systematic way, male attitudes and behaviors. Similarly, we should not push on men, in a systematic way, female attitudes and behaviors.

          • Mike

            So let me get this straight — you are saying that there is no psychological difference between a man and a woman, and that I am sexist for asserting this?

          • jefe68

            And you are projecting your anger towards your wife into this forum.

        • jefe68

          “ Because I’ve become tired of corporate America and our school systems trying to feminize men and boys.”

          One can only respond with, wow, what a load of crap.

    • jefe68

      Don’t get out much do you.

      • IHateFatChicks

        That’s ironic, coming from you.

        • jefe68

          Yawn. All you do is post a lot of tripe, and it is boring and predictable.

          • IHateFatChicks

            I’ll happily, and favorably, compare my educational background, CV, Balance Sheet, travel and experience with a trailer trash troglodyte like you, any time.

          • jefe68

            Yawn. Immature troll alert ^

  • Salty

    The political-social-media (PSM) elite have been indicating that fathers aren’t needed or required. If a woman wants a child she should be allowed to have one. (If a man wants a child, he should be allowed to have one. this happens, but to a much lesser degree…) Not about what is best for the child. Boys are being raised by mothers and with no father figure around. …and some of this is by choice! Who is left to teach boys how to be men, to treat women with love and respect? We need fathers to teach men to real men and not to be abusive jerks. But, for this to happen, the PSM elite must value men and not push them aside or treat them as idiots.

    • Amanda

      You missed the point, I think.

      • Salty

        No, my point is that we can’t have it both ways, devalue and belittle men and then blame men for the consequences of them not doing their job raising boys to be men.

        • Amanda

          Again, you missed the point.

          • Salty

            The point is what, exactly?

      • IHateFatChicks

        Again, another misandrist, ridiculous, irrational, histrionic, logically/factually/intellectually challenged comment. You’re batting 1000. It’s no surprise that men avoid you.

  • Guest

    Perhaps one of the deeper issues at play here is the curious way in which–in many respects–each of the genders is somehow foreign or mysterious to the other. I have never acted violently or inappropriately towards a woman (in the sexual sense–maybe I’ve acted inappropriately at times in terms of my attitude or something); but in reflecting thanks of this conversation, I can think of times when I’ve been in a mixed group of men and women, and the women, or a woman, will do or say something that is dumbfounding or hard to understand for the guys, and we all just kind of roll our eyes, shrug our shoulders, and think/say to ourselves, “women–go figure!” I can see how this kind of lack of understanding on our part, and commiseration about it, can work to make women see less “human” in certain men’s lives. It may also work the other way, and help explain why so many men in this conversation feel like they’re being caricatured as violent brutes.
    Perhaps a good strategy moving forward would be to educate young adults and all people to try to effectively imagine the life and experiences of people of the other gender and better understand how people in each gender’s emotions, thoughts, and attitudes differ, and they ways in which they are the same. Maybe men will never “understand” women, in the sense that they will never actually be a woman and feel and think in the same way, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be more aware of what it’s like (and vice versa). There doesn’t seem to be a lot of emphasis on this in society–we seem to just kind of have “guys” do their thing and “girls” do their thing in parallel.

    • mngeekgal

      Beautiful, self-respective thought.

      Having a sense of wonder and curiosity – “what is this other human’s perspective of life” – is a critical factor.

      Empathy breeds empathy.

  • Commander_Chico

    That was a pretty Stalinistically one-sided show.

    The best they could get for a man’s point of view was David Futrelle and a “gender-queer” transvestite dressing as a man. Same thing, I guess.

  • Harry Harris

    i strongly believe that much of this misogyny is partly a byproduct of a hyper-sexual society that places too much self-worth on sexual attractiveness, sexual activity, and sex as a measure of all things. It’s commercially powerful, but destructive of our development as advanced human beings. It interplays with everything from aggression to exploitation to creaet a warped mess. Beyonce is a fine singer, but is highly successful because sex sells. Katy Perry, anyone? Justin Timberlake? Victoria’s Secret?

  • geraldfnord

    Systems that last long enough to be encountered are generally self-reïinforcing: the bully and the daughter whose sand-castles were knocked-down were unthinkingly taught that she was the one who had to exercise self-control because that’s very largely how ‘we’ ‘want’ things We don’t laud the obnoxious behaviours we profess to dislike, and often really do, but we do laud behaviours so similar to them that there is inevitable spill-over. (Analogy: ghetto drugs kingpins are acting like the entrepreneurial C.E.O.s many of us seemingly worship.)

  • Kurt Madison

    Great discussion of this complex issue. I am right there with almost everything. Some of the generalizations are over stated [all men...] One word is missing from this conversation: Misandry. While the main aspect or point culturally, for this program is misogyny, I do not feel we can truly address these issues with out the opposite term

    Thanks – Kurt Madison

    • Amanda

      You are part of the problem. Why must we discuss misandry. That’s not the topic. Unless you’d like to minimalize, which you successfully did.

      • Kurt Madison

        I do believe your own misandry is showing….

    • geraldfnord

      True, but the most obvious examples—rape, importuning, economic persecution—are more due to misogyny given the distribution of physiques and of power. This is not to say that every man has either or both of these over every woman—I know a rich black belt who’d back this up with her experience—but gross features of a society or a body end up being seen first.

      In particular, though, I think the misandry implicit in some mothers’ conveyed convictions, well-rooted in experience (including that of misogyny) or not, that ‘men aren’t good for much’ is part of some men’s misogyny. Anxiety is no friend of rational thinking, and that includes that stemming from the perception that one weren’t needed by someone one needs. NOTE: This is in no way an excuse for bad behaviour, but an explanation…we shouldn’t ‘other’ bad men even as we try to avoid their being encouraged or at least repressed in their badness, both because it is wrong to other and because it can lead to misperceptions that can engender bad strategies and tactics both.

  • John_Hamilton

    We err when we anoint hatred of women the status of an ideology or belief system. It is evidence of mental disturbance, of which there will likely be other manifestations. In the case of the killer in Santa Barbara, there is much evidence of mental disturbance independent of his attitude towards women. Enough, I might add, to warrant more active involvement by law enforcement than was the case.

    A better way of looking at attitudes toward and treatment of women is in a continuum. There may not be much that can be done to change the attitudes of the mentally deranged, but the wide spectrum of beliefs related to gender can be discussed in a broader and deeper context. For some strange reason the fulminations of radio personality Rush Limbaugh represent a large segment of our male population. This can be taken as a benchmark for how far we have to go.

    We can start by recognizing the difficulty of changing the continuum of attitudes. We have a cultural belief, or conditioning, that sex with a female is an attainment. For some it matters little or not at all that the supposed attainment is voluntary. It is very likely that the overall context of a rapacious human society needs to change in order for this part of it to change.

    • geraldfnord

      I’m afraid that many other ideologies and belief-systems seem to me to _include_ a certain degree of mental derangement—adopting an ideology itself seems usually to constitute a semi-voluntary decision to pursue and weigh evidence consonant with your beliefs more strongly than that dissonant to them. Given that basis, it is close to inevitable that bad reality-testing will allow beliefs at variance with reality to exist and in some cases thrive, sometimes for millenia.

      And these beliefs become integral to systems of belief. For example: One might believe that it were fine to have sex with a particular woman, offending neither some god nor society, without believing that your desire induces any obligation in her, but the second could not readily exist without the first in non-criminals. One might believe that it _does_ in fact induce an obligation in her without believing that such gave the man to force sex, but other beliefs rooted in various degrees of sanity (men are at their best when being aggressive, even or especially when they’re physically aggressive [force being 'purer' than femmy 'words' and 'logic' and 'decency'], men are justified in using force to ‘claim their rights’ whether it be to save your ex-wife from the terrorists, to be the sole holder of a piece of land, to bear nukes or to have sex with a desired woman) intrude.

      And, finally (sorry for going on) though we’re neither bonobos nor trogs, looking at their societies I can’t help but think that a lot of the things I find undesirable in ourselves does in fact have some sort of firm biological basis—we shouldn’t believe every sociobiological ‘just so’ story that comes along, and our scepticism should be especially evident when such are used to prove that the researcher’s native or preferred society just happens to jibe with a supposed biological destiny (see: ‘Bees have a King!’)…but tabulæ rasæ would not survive evolutionary culling, either. This doesn’t mean we can do nothing about these, culture matters, but there are boundary conditions nothing short of a well-designed and tailored transgenic virus can fix.

  • warryer

    “I fear white men the most because they are the worst.”

    Really? Isn’t that blanket discrimination? Why not take it on a case by case basis?

    Yea your bowl of M&M’s might be 10% poison but, you develop a means to test which ones are poisonous and which are not. While also having the confidence to say, “No M&M no matter how delicious you taste you are poison. I am not going to put myself in a position to be open to your poison.”

    A blanket statement is to me the sign of someone who is fearful. And somebody who does not have confidence in their own discernment. But I agree if you can’t discern then you should swear off all the M&M’s because you won’t be able to tell which is poisonous. That should only be a temporary strategy while you teach yourself HOW to see the difference.

    • Bricksy

      You are gaslighting me. My discernment is perfectly functional. I am absolutely fearful. I have good reason to be fearful. My life has been threatened and I have been physically attacked. I am fearful. It is going to keep me alive.

      • warryer

        Your discernment is not working “perfectly” if you are fearful of all white men.

        The reason you separate yourself is because you don’t trust your discernment to recognize when a man is or is not being threatening towards you.

    • Raspberryswirl

      Dude–Did you take that M&M analogy from the #YESALLWOMEN twitters which is where I saw it? And, you totally miss its meaning.

      • warryer

        no i took it from bricksy down below.

        explain the meaning if i missed it.

        • Raspberryswirl

          You have a bowl of M&Ms. You are told 10% of them are poisoned. Now, grab a handful–go on, only 10% are poisoned.

          This is a rebuttal to men saying it’s not me. I’m not that 10%.

          • francomaistre

            Men are M&M’s? Isn’t that what feminist activists would call “objectification”?

            Elliot Rodger was not a candy in a bowl. He was a profoundly mentally ill young man. There are things we could have done to prevent his life from ending in tragedy. Posting snarky comments online about men-as-M&M’s is not one of them.

          • Raspberryswirl

            It’s called an analogy.

    • red_donn

      If she had said, “I fear white men the most because they have been the worst to me” would you still have been looking for a way to downplay her trials?

      As a well-to-do white male of imposing physical appearance, I feel that my position in society affords me a sufficient reserve of strength and patience to empathize with a comment that might give offense to someone in a more defensive situation.

      Your response is not, as you might think it to be, an educational one aimed to enlighten her – it cannot be, since you almost certainly do not understand her position. Rather, it is a defensive one, and I am very suspicious of a rush to defend those with more power and privilige than others, if for no other reason than the sordid history of past reactionary movements.

  • Guest

    These comments are Exhibit A of what #YesAllWomen was about.

    • Bill98

      Rather, they prove what a fraud #YesAllWomen really was.

  • Amanda

    These comments exactly reflect what #YesAllWomen was about. To be clear, just about every male posting is part of the problem. BTW: As a women, I’ve learned to make sure I give a ‘safe harbor’ to men so I intentionally wrote “just about every” but really, I think its every.

    • Anna Petit

      exactly what i was thinking reading through the threads… the level of denial is astonishing.

      • Amanda

        I think I’m going to go and reply like I did to Steve. Because these comments are just beyond ironic. Wow. And to think some people call it a ‘subtle’ problem.

        • levi

          Read below comments from our buddy Mike, talk about denial

      • Raspberryswirl

        Most of the postings are case-in-point.

    • OnPointComments

      You, Amanda, are bigoted and a misandrist.

      • Amanda

        And you’re part of the problem. Thanks for proving the point of #YesAllWomen in 6 words.

        • francomaistre

          “No You!” “No You!” Way to be grown-ups guys.

  • Steve Blake

    The idea that this society in this country in 2014 tolerates and even encourages hatred of women (that is the dictionary definition of misogyny) is ludicrous. Was there gender discrimination in the past? Of course. But we have made tremendous strides toward rectifying that. For example more than half of college students are currently female. Women are no longer barred from professions because of their sex. Overcoming mistakes from the past takes time but we are clearly striving toward the goal of gender equality.
    Aside from the fact the California gunman was crazy and killed more men than women to try and make this some sort of indication that hatred of women is rampant kind of overstates the case. To connect the killer with Men’s Rights advocates on the web is the worst kind of guilt by association.
    I am so disappointed in NPR for running such a one sided program filled with demonstrably untrue propaganda. No mention is made of the fact the men are much more likely to be victims of violence and are far more likely to die violently. No mention is made of the fact that half of all DV is reciprocal or that the greatest indicator of women’s injuries is if she started the fight.
    I run a father’s rights group in Wisconsin so I suppose we are a subset of the MRAs and I can tell you that there are legitimate concerns being raised on the websites and blogs that this program so disdainfully referred to as outliers. The bias against men that is apparent in family court and especially DV courts is unknown to any who have not experienced it.
    If this program is an example of what NPR considers to be balanced then I will need to seriously reconsider my support of public radio.

    • Amanda

      PSST. You are part of the problem.

      • Bill98

        Don’t look now…but you proved his point…

        • jefe68

          And you hers.

          • Bill98

            You think that I proved that Steve is part of the problem??? I would love to see you attempt to prove that bit of fractured logic. Sadly, you won’t even try.

          • jefe68

            Nope, it was directed towards you.

            But as long as you mention Steve. Do you agree with Steve, that it’s the woman’s fault for the violent reaction of the boyfriend or spouse?

          • Bill98

            And my comment was that “Guest” proved Steve’s point. Now, connect the dots. If you say that I proved “Guest’s” point, then you are stating that I validated her comment that Steve was part of the problem. See? So, try again. How, precisely, did I prove Guest’s point?

          • Bill98

            Really? Exactly how did I prove “Guest’s” point that Steve was part of the problem? You are trying to be clever…you need to try harder…

      • brettearle

        PSST…

        By going around, self-righteously, and telling more than one individual that they are part of the problem makes you….a….part…..of….the….problem.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Grow up.

    • Anna Petit

      Obviously you have a personal experience that has colored your view of this issue, but there is still deep sexism in our culture & many examples were given in the show. acknowledging that without being defensive is part of moving towards a more equal society. dismissing the problem or making the fault of feminism is stepping in the wrong direction.

    • jefe68

      Wait a minute, so you’re blaming women for starting a fight for the violence that some men use in relationships?
      That it’s her fault for being beaten? Amazing.

    • wgp2

      Of course you would see this show as ‘one sided’. The show’s topic is misogyny not “men’s rights”. And while women have made strides in the larger male-dominated culture with regards to education, voting rights, employment and reproductive rights, there still remains the issue of overt sexism and misogyny and lack of respect of women as EQUAL to men.

      The fact that more men died in this particular shooting doesn’t wave away the actuality that our culture is a male-dominated culture and that Elliot’s rampage was directed at women and not men. Those men that were shot were collateral damage to his intended victims who were women. But the loss of all life in this situation is tragic. No person is greater than the other.

      I suggest you check out Dave Furtelle’s blog if you haven’t. He covers the ‘pick up artist’ mentality he highlights as it relates to the UCSB shootings.

      You might well be sincere in championing “Men’s Rights” w/ regards to divorce, child visitation and domestic violence. And those issues are legitimate
      but when you bring out the “she started it” excuse as a reciprocal reason for extreme violence is a subtle example of male thinking that tends to legitimizes the misogyny and violence then visited upon the woman.

      • Steve Blake

        I suspect the feminists searched for the most inflammatory word they could to describe the issue. Misogyny is the hatred of women. If you are trying to tell me that I hate women I must politely tell you that you are mistaken.

        There is no legitimizing hatred for anybody, including women, nor violence regardless of who starts it. I know what I’m thinking thank you and it is not an attempt to legitimize anything. It is simply to point out the human interactions are complicated and to absolve women of any responsibility because men are so awful is not a strong argument IMHO. .

        • wgp2

          I’m not suggesting or implying you are misogynist if I gave you that impression. Misongny isn’t simply limited to hating women, it include discrimination, objectification and denigration.

          Misogyny is only inflammatory to those feeling impugned. Feminists didn’t ‘create’ misogyny. The concept goes back to Greek philosophy.

          My position is (and I include myself in this) is that when we excuse the actions of a few and wave away the problem without saying or doing something, it is implicitly condones the behavior. I’m not absolving women of the actions they do.

          Yes, human relationships are complicated. And there are plenty of men out there that are respectful of women and don’t engage in sexist or misogynist behavior.

          Acknowledging that the problem exists and affects women disproportionately is part of being responsible, thoughtful and engaged about addressing the issues that many women face. That also doesn’t mean that men haven’t faced the same issues.

          But denying the issue is, in a way, sweeping it under the rug and hoping some other person will deal with it.

          I think this recent event has at least allowed the conversation to happen and we can talk about it respectfully and honestly.

          I think there are plenty of guys out there that feel personally attacked by this discussion of misogyny and its larger roll in our society. But I’m not one of them, and recognizing the issue doesn’t make you or I misogynists.

    • geraldfnord

      Of course, even thought that ‘half’ claim is based on a study that didn’t weight by severity or frequency.

      And, of course,if our repeated transaction left you with fifty new pennies once and me with fifty Krugerrande repeatedly, we’d be even.

    • Elizabeth_in_RI

      You are absolutely correct that there is often discrimination in child custody suits and a lack of response to domestic or sexual violence towards men – and it really sucks doesn’t it?? And only by discussing it and getting people to understand that it is a real issue can you expect that to change, right??

      That’s all we women are trying to do by bringing attention to these problems. Yes, things have gotten better, but we aren’t there yet. Just as institution racism is no longer allowed, there are many subtle ways that racism and sexism still exist that help to marginalize minorities and women. In fact because so many of these problems are subtle it’s much more difficult to address since we can’t legislate changes in attitude or even most behavior.

      So I’m sorry you are disappointed in NPR for spending time on this issue – but it is an important one if we are going to continue making strides toward a society that really doesn’t tolerate inequality – of any kind.

  • Amanda

    Can the women who are reading these comments and afraid to respond for fear of attack please reply to let me know they are there. I’m curious…. And afraid.

    • Tom Goshen

      You don’t need to be afraid of any of us. Many of us just don’t like being compared to an out of control sociopath as an example of “all men”, and dislike being the target of hatred just as you do.

      • Amanda

        Here’s a hint. It’s not about YOU. Please think on that. It’s NOT about YOU personally. Please.

        • francomaistre

          You say that, and yet there are pages and pages of comments here lamenting “male rage”, “male violence”, “male entitlement” and other indiscriminately applied gender-rooted invectives. If you don’t want us to think it’s about us, don’t make it about us. We want the same thing you want: Not to be disparaged based entirely on our gender.

          • Amanda

            All serial killers are humans. Do you actually believe that trying to understand why HUMANS kill makes that conversation about YOU? Because it’s NOT. ABOUT. YOU. PERSONALLY.

          • francomaistre

            Elliot Rodger’s killing spree is not about you personally either, but you’re making an effort to draw certain conclusions from it which toe a line of gender bias that myself and others then feel compelled to respond to. As much as it’s not about me personally, it’s not about you personally either. When you invoke gender as a cause, you compel me to respond nonetheless.

          • brettearle

            It is time that the Radical Feminist Movement owned up to its shortcomings:

            That of encouraging women to distrust men, across the board.

            The movement may not do that overtly. But that is often the fallout.

            And not enough women speak out against this outrage.

            Such gender excoriation does nothing but to encourage mistrust.

          • Mike

            Agree completely. And the reason that women don’t speak out about it is that this viewpoint has become the mainstream viewpoint, and especially the mainstream media’s viewpoint. So these women are unconscious of how imbalanced it is. The conclusion is basically that all forms and degrees of male aggression is not just bad — it’s criminal and rapacious. And all men possess these forms of aggression. Therefore, all men are potential criminals. People like us are awakening to how extreme this is, and we are beginning to express our views (as in this forum), to much criticism. But we must do it to awaken BOTH women and men to this. As you see in this forum, many men passively absorb and accept PERSONALLY the collective guilt that they are unjustly foisting upon us. So the men need to be awoken also.

          • brettearle

            I appreciate you speaking up about this.

            I think that more men realize the problem than you are acknowledging, however.

            It’s just that you and I feel more passionate about it–but other men allow their disgust or resignation to take over.

            When we combine gender conflict with race, ageism, and the differences and the stigma of economic-social class status, we got ourselves one whale of a DYSFUNCTIONAL culture–bar none!!

          • brettearle

            With some Radical Feminists, the drive and the impulse is to demonize, demonize, demonize–at all costs and no matter what.

            That’s why 1-800 numbers, to social service hotlines, are filled, more and more, with false accusations.

          • Mike

            Amanda, you are all over this discussion. It’s unbelievable. And you seem to be contradicting yourself when I compare comments. You’re really being disingenuous and inflammatory. Francomaistre is making a valid point here — each of those guests were generalizing from this poor, sick, twisted individual’s actions to all men. That female guest (I forget her name) invoked the example of — what was it — a little 4 year old boy who was knocking over her child’s blocks as “male aggression”, and pretty much conflating it with the Santa Barbara killer’s actions. It’s quite twisted and sick to do this.

        • IHateFatChicks

          You say that while attacking men without any facts or data. How ironic. :)

      • Amanda

        And I’ve already been subjected to an ad hominem attack.

      • Anna Petit

        this is part of what the show discussed- talking with taking it personally. as soon as you do, real
        discourse stops

        • francomaistre

          This is a fair argument, but it begs this question: Why do you take the Isla Vista killings personally? One could argue that the conversation was off the rails from the very start. We’re looking at a profoundly isolated and mentally ill young man here and reflecting his horrible murderous acts on gender relations. I understand women are fearful, and I respect that, but it doesn’t give license for many to make hurtful indictments of an entire gender.

          • Amanda

            Because I’ve been on the receiving end of violence from a man I rejected. So when I see a man kill because, in part, he was rejected by women, it hits home.

          • Anna Petit

            I think the language is a hard thing to negotiate, where we aren’t condemning one whole side of humanity, wholesale… I do take all the little signals from society at large personally. This is what i think all the women here are responding to & the counters are showing examples of the thinking that makes us feel marginalized and discounted

          • brettearle

            Excellent. Thanks.

          • Amanda

            PSST. You’re part of the problem.

          • brettearle

            I’m only part of the problem–if I can’t convince you of your own across-the-board gender bias.

      • brettearle

        Well said. And important.

        Many men pay for the sins of a few.

    • Amanda

      Truly, I’d like to thank most of the men who responded (I believe there was at least one who gets it). It’s always nice to have such evidence that it’s not my imagination that our CULTURE is messed up.

      • ThirdWayForward

        The culture and the availiabilty of lethal weapons facilitate the violence, but the propensity for violent behavior is motivated by deeper psychological issues. Cultural determinists want to load everything on culture (which we think plays a relatively weaker role vis-a-vis acts of violence).

        I think of violent video games and mass media (culture) , which make me nervous, but on the other hand 999/1000 people play these games and watch these movies without assaulting other people.

        The social inhibitions have less effect, however, for a very small percentage of people (sociopaths) who do not have good self-control and are always angry. A disproportionate fraction of violent crimes are committed by a relatively small number of sociopathic individuals.

        We need social institutions that can take care of the specific needs of violence prone people — that can steer them away from acting on their impulses.

    • twenty_niner

      “And afraid”

      Afraid of what? Assault via blog?

      • Amanda

        Of threats of violence, of name calling?

        You must have no idea how men communicate with women online. It’s vile and vicious and very, very common. Google it if you want to see how half the population lives.

        • J__o__h__n

          I haven’t noticed that on this forum which I read five days a week. There is some name calling but is usually based on political ideology and perceived mental capacity not on gender. I’ve never seen a threat posted here.

        • twenty_niner

          “name calling”

          Guilty as charged. I have used “libtard” in the past, but I’m trying to be more civil. Is there a more polite synonym for “libtard”?

          • jefe68

            I think libtard is rather benign. Not unlike Right Wing Clown Posse.

        • Bill98

          Threats of violence…from people who have no idea who you are, or where you are? And you seriously claim to be afraid?

          As for name calling, you don’t have to be a woman to deal with that. We all get that, but it is hardly something to fear.

          • Amanda

            I almost wish you were my dad. I’m sure that’s the advice you’ll give your daughter when she gets detailed threats … in writing, by phone, by letters, on her locker. Right?

            And your dismissal – part of the problem and why men think they can get away with it.

            And yet, I hope no one makes your daughter feel like you just made me. But you’re right, I should just ignore it. Except I did once …

        • IHateFatChicks

          Please, grow up. Your entire comment is infantile and ridiculous. What are you, 14 years old.

          • jefe68

            Hilarious, sad, and a tad ironic. A guy with a juvenile moniker telling a woman to grow up. What do you do for an encore?

          • IHateFatChicks

            You’re full of irony, aren’t you, cupcake. :)

          • jefe68

            I think you’re mistaking that irony for contempt of inane bottom feeders, such as yourself, who think trolling forums is somehow a sign of intelligence.
            Seems more like a sign of emotionally disturbed individual.

  • ThirdWayForward

    First, let’s remember that this evil man Rodgers was severely
    mentally ill and he never should have been allowed to come within 1000
    feet of a deadly weapon. The vast, vast majority of men have
    psychologies that are nothing like this vicious, resentful, angry animal, and it is faintly nauseating to hear “guilty men” proclaiming the implicit guilt of all men in the wake of this heinous crime.

    It is so reminiscent of “guilty Germans” — yes, many Germans did support the Nazis in the 1930′s, but many opposed and resisted them (and these dissidents were also herded into concentration camps and murdered along with Jews, gays, and gypsies/Romanis). You cannot condemn a whole people because of the evils that some part of them have wrought.

    There are many parallels between this discussion and those related to racism. There is a huge amount of guilt-mongering going on by those who believe that all men, by virtue of their anatomy, are oppressors (in parallel to the belief by some that all “white” people are racists).

    Guilt-mongering is very bad politics, because it accuses whole classes of people on the basis of their innate characteristics, which they cannot change and often form a part of their self-identity. If criticisms are to be made, they need to be directed at attitudes and behavior, which those accused can change.

    Men-bad/women-good feminism is the mirror image of the kind of male chauvinist resentment that Rodgers held.

    The person who thinks that all men are oppressors, regardless of their attitudes or actions, is as deeply sexist as someone who believe that women are inherently inferior to men. The same goes for those who think that all “white” people are racists.

    [We put "white" in quotes because this category, like all racial categories, is an arbitrary social construction, and it is under constant revision. It would be an interesting sociopsychological experiment to find out what percentage of "white" people spontaneously self-identify as "white" (as opposed to religious and/or ethnic descriptors).]

    We need to get beyond these stereotypes and resentment politics in order to deal with these problems. We need to make life safer and better for everyone (many men are also uncomfortable in deserted parking lots and in rough neighborhoods– if you care to look, there is plenty of everyday fear amongst men as well as women). Action against violence has the potential of attracting wide support among both women and men.

    Violence against women is a serious problem, but let us not forget that violence itself is the problem. Violence is violence, irrespective of who it is directed toward.

    In dealing with the roots of violence, we also need to take the means for violence out of the hands of mentally unstable people.

    • Amanda

      Nice marginalization in the second to last paragraph.

      • ThirdWayForward

        No! Our intent is not to marginalize, but to get people to recognize their common problems and to deal with them together.

        Identity politics may feel good to those who want to wallow in their own correct identities and derive solace from their particular oppressions, but it is inherently divisive — it sets up oppositions between Us and Them that prevent the rest of the population from empathizing, from feeling that this is a problem for Us (everyone).

        Don’t parochialize a general problem — it will narrow your base of support.

        A second point is try not to demonize whole classes of people. Arguably the manhating segment of the radical feminist movement (a la Andrea Dworkin) did enormous damage to the goals of gender equality.

        We think that the pivotal point re: gay liberation was reached when most people begin to think of gays, not as people apart from them, but as their family members, friends, and co-workers. The movement transitioned from a crusade to the normalization of sexual preference.

        Something similar has happened re: women since the 1970′s — general attitudes towards women have undergone a large transformation (despite huge progress, we still need to ratify the ERA).

        Unfortunately there are pockets of resistance, the male chauvinist analogues of white supremacists, and angry mentally-unstable people can be attracted to these groups.

        There is violence against women, against racial minorities, against religious and ethnic identity, domestic violence, gang violence, random street crime — these forms of violence are not made any worse (or better) by the group memberships of their victims.

        In many ways, there are commonalities in many of these forms of hatred and violence. Even though their motivations and focus seem different, we think the underlying psychological mechanisms are similar.

        We need to recognize the common sources of violent behavior and deal with them, together.

        • Amanda

          “It will narrow your base of support.”

          Sorry, I must have forgot my place. I will take care to better massage the egos of strong, manly, white men like yourself. /sarcasm

          PSST You are part of the problem.

          • ThirdWayForward

            You have absolutely no idea of who I am or what I am. You can have your own identity, but don’t make assumptions about others.

            It is not a matter of massaging egos — it is a matter of men and women — all people of all walks of life — coming to see other people as themselves, and come to see the problems of others as their own.

            Empathy, understanding, mutual aid, solidarity.

          • Amanda

            Then start listening to what we’re saying and stop tone policing. That’s part of the problem.

          • ThirdWayForward

            Yes, I am listening, and I agree with parts of what you say, but I am not the one making ad hominem comments that are meant to silence those who disagree.

            I tend to listen less carefully when someone labels me as a “class enemy”(irrespective of whether the label actually fits).

          • IHateFatChicks

            You’re wasting your time with these delusional women.

          • ThirdWayForward

            What pleasure can you possibly derive from a nasty moniker like that? Surely you have better, more enjoyable things to do than being a troll.

          • IHateFatChicks

            No, actually you are.

    • Anna Petit

      yes, he was mentally ill. yes, he was an outlier. He is the problem writ large, which is why it has our attention at all. But the social constructs that lead him to his manifesto and attack are prevalent in our culture and and are accepted as just how things are. Bringing awareness should not be characterized as shaming or guilt-mongering.

      • warryer

        Because one man’s choice is representative of the entire culture as a whole?

        • Anna Petit

          one man’s choice is a hyper magnified example of underlying issues in part of our culture.

          • francomaistre

            Can anyone actually believe that when the man in question is a self-described outcast? Rodger’s long manifesto is all about being rejected by society. To ascribe his actions back onto society, to me, is hard to buy.

          • Anna Petit

            being an self proclaimed outcast does not exclude him from being raised in a normal gender role, therefore he would still be shaped by social forces. even my super nice guy husband is an accidental entitled misogynist sometimes.

          • warryer

            women are also shaped by those same social forces. So i question how you can know from an objective standpoint what “gender roles” are *supposed* to be, since you are also viewing it through the same relativistic lens that we all are, as you claim.

          • brettearle

            To parse out emotional impulses in attitude that are negative–between and against men and women–and then to use those common feelings to attribute how behavior can turn into murderous violence is like saying that eating a salami sandwich on occasion–filled with nitrosamines–will definitely turn into cancer.

            Millions of times a time men and women feel resentment toward each other. But it doesn’t lead to either sex trying to destroy lives.

            Mental illness, I believe, is a Big part of this story.

          • Anna Petit

            of course, we are shaped by social forces.I am trying to be objective, but I’m part of this very flawed social system. Social forces that have taught us to be nice and polite to the point of putting ourselves in danger. Social forces that teach my daughters that their self worth has more to do with their appearance than the content of their character. I am fighting an uphill battle to teach them otherwise.

          • warryer

            Understood. From what frame of reference do you determine that this social system is flawed? How do you determine when it is not flawed?

          • Anna Petit

            Is that meant to be rhetorical? If you ask any person who could be part of a group that has been marginalized or experienced discrimination, I think they would tell you it is a system full of flaws. “striving towards equality, is not achieved equality. we have a long long way to go

          • warryer

            No it is not a rhetorical question.

            I am asking you from what frame of reference are you determining that this system is flawed?

            I don’t see how women can be considered a group that has been marginalized considering they make up 50% (slightly over in fact) of the population.

          • Anna

            growing up on the short end of the social stick has given me the frame of reference that this system is flawed. making up half of the population does not give us 50% of the power.

          • warryer

            How are you on the short end of the social stick?

            This is a democratic republic where each adult human has a vote that is worth the same as each other adult human. How is this not equality?

            What equality are you looking for?

          • Anna

            i don’t think i can explain to you, if you are not aware that there is a problem. there is lots of mainstream literature to the contrary

          • warryer

            I am asking questions because I want to know YOUR position. If you are unable to explain what it is then you must not truly understand what YOUR position is.

          • Anna

            no, i don’t have time to catch you up on the last several millennia. i watch the news through the lens of a woman: I pay attention when I hear about the epidemic of sexual violence in the military, on college campuses, about pay discrimination, lack of support for working mothers, the list could go on…also when I hear arguments that there is no such thing as a gender bias.

          • francomaistre

            Perhaps, and that’s a discussion I’m more willing to have. But there is a chasm between “accidental entitled misogynist” and “psychotic woman hating serial murdering psychopath”. It’s the women who ascribe various aspects of Elliot Rodger to gendered labels like “male rage” that I feel hurt by and must object to.

          • Amanda

            May I suggest you reconsider and review the tweets with the #YesAllWomen hashtag from the view that men can (and are) be “accidentally entitled misogynists.” THAT is what we’re trying to talk about.

          • francomaistre

            But this OP program is about a mass killing of 4 men and 2 women and injuring of 13 others in a specific event in Isla Vista. You insist on conflating pernicious misogyny in everyday life (which I agree unequivocally is a problem in desperate need of attention) with Elliot Rodger, a mass murderer with a lifelong history of mental illness and social isolation. The association is tenuous at best and rings of exploiting a tragedy to justify a social movement.

          • Anna Petit

            I think a lot of the nuances of this discussion have flown out the window, largely. The accidental entitled misogynist is the one we encounter all the time. all day. Identifying attitudes and expectations that lead to marginalization & point them out is what i think we are trying to get to. Obviously, my nice guy husband is not going to go on a murdering rampage, but he makes comments and exhibits behaviors that are inherently sexist, without realizing it, as do many men I know and love.

          • warryer

            Your words/thoughts are also products of the same culture…

      • ThirdWayForward

        I agree that culture plays some modulating role, and I am not saying that the culture is blameless, but the underlying central problem is his mental illness, the source of his anger and resentment. The anger is what drives everything — seeking out a misogynist group, buying lethal weapons, killing innocent people.

        • Anna Petit

          agreed. however, the topic was how cultural misogyny played a part in this act, how pervasive and widespread it is, and those same attitudes of dismissal and denigration make women “less than” in society at large. This forum has shown then deep need for understanding on that front.

    • jefe68

      And yet the majority of Germans not only supported they endorsed the nazi regimes anti-Semitic laws. Not the best analogy.

      • ThirdWayForward

        I meant it as such. Even though most Germans went along with anti-Semitic laws, it does not follow that all Germans, then and now, are guilty.

        There is no group guilt — i.e. guilt by birth, by innate, unchangeable characteristics, by the crimes of ones ancestors. The idea of group characteristics is the backbone of racist and gender-essentialist thinking. Most Southerners supported slavery, but some did not — are Southerners inherently racist? No, one must judge by the attitude (intent) and behaviorof a particular individual.

        • jefe68

          You have left out something. Centuries of anti-Semitism that has permeated almost every part of a lot of European culture.
          The same can be said of how racism has ben part of American culture. It’s not only slavery, it’s Jim Crow, and red lining of neighborhoods. Look up the history of FHA loans, not a pretty picture.

          • ThirdWayForward

            I don’t understand the point being made here. This moral precept to judge individuals according to their own chosen actions in no way minimizes the profound evils of anti-Semitism and the Holocaust or racism and slavery.

          • jefe68

            My point? Is that people and individuals don’t change the way you think they do.

    • Raspberryswirl

      Oh! A wailing lament for mankind! Sniff…

      You literally buried the fact that violence against women is a problem in our society at the very end of your post. And, stay on topic.

    • brettearle

      Well-said.

      At this point, i think it is an EMERGENCY, to look at all aspects of our culture and our society, to see what are the BIGGEST factors that are encouraging this behavior.

      Otherwise, we are headed to a POLICE STATE sooner than any of us realize.

  • Coastghost

    Requisite specificity, per favore: do you mean “male misogyny” or “female misogyny”?
    The early historical record may yet be punctuated with lacunae, but we have ample evidence that women have been undermining each other since well before history properly commenced and have not since neglected their efforts.

  • Coastghost

    Quite oddly, “misogyny” as employed today in this forum has generally lacked gender specificity: the clear implication of most usage here has been that misogyny is an exclusive and/or intrinsic intellectual property of heterosexual males: but misogyny is practiced by women every day, too, and not exclusively by non-feminist women, either.
    Any good feminist accounts of female misogyny out there?

    • Salty

      …but that wouldn’t fit the PSM (political-social-media) elite mantra of “white heterosexual Christian male (WHCM) = bad” agenda and that everyone else is a victim, somehow, of the dreaded WHCM.

      • Amanda

        If the shoe fits …

        • Salty

          I know… too many people out there wearing misfitting shoes… Hey wait! I think what the world needs is another hashtag. If it were just clever enough, all our problems would be solved!

    • Amanda

      I don’t know a single feminist (or rational human being) who thinks ONLY men are misogynist. Fat-shaming, slut-shaming – women are active participants. The fact that women participate is a function of the fact that the sexism in deeply embedded in the culture, just like racism and ableism, for example. This was raised on the show and rightly so. I think the your perception of the focus on the het white cis males is a reflection of the participants in the comments who, for the most part, reflected what is typically heard from white, het, cis men. Would love to move beyond but it’s tough …

      • Coastghost

        But then why have feminist scholars not written so voluminously on female-on-female predation and feminine misogyny? Why is the very locution “feminine misogyny” not recognized as a commonplace in contemporary discourse?

        • Amanda

          They have and so much so, I don’t even know how to refute your point. The writing is existence, I promise. Of course, what’s being written may not be picked up and broadcast to a broader audience but that’s not of a want of trying.

        • Elizabeth_in_RI

          You obviously haven’t read much feminist scholarly literature. There is a great deal written about that and other failures of women to live up to the ideals that we should be striving for. However, the cultural impacts of misogynist attitudes of males is considerably greater because men have more power in society.

          • Coastghost

            Indeed, I have not, and what little I have examined has been of the literary critical variety: and granted, the essay is now 25 years old, but the bibliography for Cheryl B. Torsney’s “The Critical Quilt: Alternative Authority in Feminist Criticism” (Atkins & Morrow, eds./Contemporary Literary Theory, UMass Press, 1989) does not betray any obvious allusion to what I’m terming “feminine misogyny”. (The coinage “gynocritical” as used there seems not to refer to feminist self-criticism.)

          • Amanda

            All I can say is try listening – it’s there. Try Bitch Magazine, Luna Luna, Jezebel (although that has a very unique pov that’s sometimes all over the place. Or follow today’s guest on twitter.

          • Coastghost

            –which would seem to support my contention that the locution “feminine misogyny” (or its rough equivalent) is not too conspicuous a feature of feminist discourse or of analyses of misogyny.

          • Amanda

            Again, you are quite wrong – it’s there amongst the feminists in large volumes. I’m unsure of how my ability to rattle off 3 sources (that will show up with the simplest of google searches) supports your bogus contention.

            The parenthetical about Jezebel relates to the oddity of the humor, only. If you’re not a regular reader, it may not make sense. I just worded that part awkwardly. It was a well intentioned caution – in case you decided to read something feminist in the next 25 years.

          • Coastghost

            If ever I come across a satirical journal devoted to feminist self-criticism with a title something like “Hysteria”, I hope to pay keen attention.
            This forum demonstrates to my satisfaction that “misogyny” as a standalone term completely lacks requisite specificity. And while I may very well be mistook because I don’t consult feminist scholarship with any care or devotion, with what attention I have managed to pay to contemporary circumstances I have failed to discern that “feminine misogyny” is at all a widespread or familiar concept.

          • IHateFatChicks

            I prefer actual, real news. Not some rag with an agenda, regardless of it’s accuracy or fallacious comments.

          • notafeminista

            I would disagree – how much more damaging is misogyny from within the sisterhood – from whom those one might otherwise expect support?

        • Amanda

          Also, the speakers on the show were very clear that women are involved in the problems caused our misogynist culture. I’m not sure why you haven’t picked up on this but I think that would be a good point to explore personally.

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

        This was specifically mentioned on the program.

  • twenty_niner

    There was probably a Jewish gal (or guy?) who rejected Hitler at one point; then look what happened. Human sexuality, if nudged slightly the wrong way, can really cause some people to go off the deep end. If you’re really out whack, the only solution I see is early castration or some very realistic sex bots.

  • Pamela Harris

    Elliiot Rodger was mentally ill. His actions were not due to some perceived systemic evil character trait shared by ALL/MOST MEN. We do indeed have more work to do to equalize the sexes on many levels, but turning this horrific act into a forum to blame all/most men for hating women or acting on feelings of entitlement is reaching over the moon here. Does anyone think there were ANY signs of his mental illness in his past anywhere?!

    • Amanda

      He saw a therapist over half his life – I don’t believe anyone is saying there were no signs of mental illness on his part.

      The conversation is actually about what happened next – that the response on much of social media, over and over again, was “Not All Men”. Which is absolutely true.

      But the hashtag is in reaction to that response – that while it’s true that not all men are violent towards women or misogynists, all women (or virtually all) have been on the receiving end of misogyny that is deeply embedded in a our culture and that we all exist in.

      • brettearle

        it seems to me that it is incumbent upon all women
        –regardless of their experiences–to try and know the difference between destructive behavior and otherwise.

        At this point, if a man even says `girl’, sometimes, instead of `woman’–while that might be an inaccurate, or even an inappropriate word–it can immediately set off a whole degree of assumptions that may be erroneous….about sexual pathology and sexual exploitation.

        I would argue that often this interpretation would be political correctness run amok.

        • Amanda

          Again, this is about our culture. Calling women ‘girls’ at the office may seem harmless, but what if the fact its acceptable to call grown women ‘girls’ contributes to the fact that women are compensated less than men a lot of the time.

          And what is or is not destructive is not always clear. The fact that women respond like they do should tell you something. A man might genuinely not be a threat, but for many women, the chances are there was a guy once who didn’t look like a threat … but he really was.

        • Amanda

          Or the charge of political correctness is used to dismiss and silence those who complain about the status quo …

    • IHateFatChicks

      What a ridiculous, delusional comment.

      • Pamela Harris

        Great way to keep the discussion going.

        • IHateFatChicks

          It didn’t require much to address a half-wit of a simpleton like you. You made it easy with your vapid, vacuous, inane, misinformed, ignorant comments. Bravo. :)

          • Pamela Harris

            Your comments are rude and add no value to the discussion.

          • IHateFatChicks

            That’s ironic coming from an unemployed, uneducated single mother.

          • IHateFatChicks

            That’s ironic coming from an unemployed, uneducated single mother living in a trailer.

  • Elizabeth_in_RI

    The defensive response and really poor analogy of ThirdWayForward demonstrate that you just don’t get it. No – not all men are evil, not all men go on killing rampages, etc. etc. (although it is intriguing how many mass event killers in this and other countries are white males – but that’s another discussion). But to some degree ALL women have experienced the truly offensive, scary behavior exhibited in Elliot Rodger’s rant – the blaming of women for his unhappiness, the sense of entitlement to their “affection” (aka body), etc. And before the backlash begins – take a breath and ask your mother, your wife, your girlfriend or daughter what she thinks and how she feels. One of the most dangerous and frustrating sentences in the human language is “boys will be boys” (and this idea exists in most languages).
    The idea is not for all men to defend themselves – the idea is for all men to be aware of this behavior, to stop it when they can or at the very least not condone or support it with laughter, high fives, or even silence. If not all men are bad guys, then rather than rants about how “uncommon” this behavior is, how about statements of support and re-dedications to speaking out to help change attitudes?

    • Amanda

      “And before the backlash begins – take a breath and ask your mother, your wife, your girlfriend or daughter what she thinks and how she feels.” This! Yes!

    • brettearle

      Well said.

      But men can have the right, among themselves and with women, to find humor in sex.

      I don’t see that there’s anything wrong with that.

      Humor and sex can coexist without sexploitation.

      Humor and sex is everywhere in Media and in sit-com without either everyone jumping off a bridge or taking it out on others.

    • twenty_niner

      “although it is intriguing how many mass event killers in this and other countries are white males”

      It’s actually not that intriguing when you look at the statistics. Black shooters tend to represent their statistical portion of the U.S. population. Past mass killers include: Aaron Alexis, Omar S. Thornton, Maurice Clemmons, Charles Lee Thornton, William D. Baker, Arthur Wise, Clifton McCree, Nathan Dunlap, Colin Ferguson, and the DC Snipers, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo.

      What’s actually more interesting is your perception of mass killers.

      • Amanda

        69 out the last 70 mass murders were by white males. I think that says something.

        • twenty_niner
          • twenty_niner

            But once we establish The Ministry of Truth, I would agree that we should rewrite history and make all of the villains white. I’m sure behind every non-white villain, there was a white devil who was really pulling the strings anyway.

        • hennorama

          Amanda — that is inaccurate.

          Perpetrators of 69 of the last 70 mass shootings in the US were male, the majority of whom were white.

          Per salon.com (emphasis added):

          Mother Jones, back in 2012, created a timeline that compiled mass shootings in the US from 1982 to 2012. Since then, there have been at least 8 mass shootings in 2013 and 2014, bringing the total to at least 70. The criteria Mother Jones used to define “mass shootings” (at least four or more dead) can be found here. Some similarities between the shootings are relatively common knowledge – men were all but one of the shooters. The majority were white. Average age, 35—the youngest was 11. The killers possessed a total of 143 guns between them, more than three quarters of which were obtained legally. A majority were mentally troubled and showed signs beforehand.

          See:
          http://www.salon.com/chromeo/article/elliot_rodger_and_americas_ongoing_masculinity_crisis_partner/

          • Coastghost

            hen: are you exempting Carol Coronado because she (allegedly) stabbed her three daughters to death instead of shooting them? or because she didn’t have four daughters to kill?

          • hennorama

            Coastghost — TYFYR.

            I was simply pointing out the inaccuracy of Amanda’s comment, and pointing her to the source to which she was trying to refer.

          • brettearle

            [g]

          • hennorama

            [ackbatcha]

      • Elizabeth_in_RI

        But your list didn’t include Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Timothy McVey, the Columbine boys, the PA school stabbing, the Kentucky school shooters or many of the others. Yes, people of all color kill – so I guess the real difference is the male part (and yes I know there are women killers too – and sadly they often kill their own children, part there are far fewer both in terms of the number of killers and the number of killed).

    • Jeff

      I agree, men need to take into account how women feel and it doesn’t happen often enough.

      I do wonder how many women in this conversation have looked at the situation for men. Almost none…not a single comment tries to understand how men might be feeling (especially younger men) in today’s society. I mean boys can’t be boys anymore…schools have been feminized to the point where an excited boy trying to raise his hand and answer a question is viewed as disruptive. More women are graduating with degrees, the jobs that men could get before in manufacturing without much education are going away. The office environment has all sorts of rules where a bad joke leads to being fired on the spot if someone is offended. Men are losing their place, not finding jobs even right now we’re still going through the “mancession”.

      I’ll stand next to every woman against violence against women but an isolated psychopath does not represent most men or even some men. The society is moving in the direction women want but men are being left behind in many ways.

      • Elizabeth_in_RI

        As the mother of a teenage boy – I couldn’t agree more that we’ve made much of typical “boy” behavior off limits and practically criminal. Particularly in schools we’ve restricted physical activities that are a necessary part of growing up for both boys and girls. But we still do excuse far too much unacceptable behavior under the banner of “boys will be boys”. That concept of excusing boys for unacceptable behavior is what starts the idea of male entitlement.

        The fact that men who have held such a privileged place in society for so many centuries are now feeling put upon because they are being asked to consider how their behavior affects the other 50% of humanity is almost comical (if it weren’t so sad).

        And regarding tthe mancession (which is largely driven by the lack of good paying construction jobs), hey, if men are willing to take on the jobs of wiping the butts and noses of children and the elderly for $8/hour, asking if you want fries with that, grocery checker, etc. (i.e. the low paying, typically low status jobs that women dominate in) I’m sure that men would be able to take those jobs from women. And since male nurses or teachers tend to get promoted more rapidly than women with the same experience, skills and performance, I’m sure things would improve pretty rapidly. So sorry – again, not too much sympathy, but as a working parent I can definitely understand the frustration, fear and helplessness of not being able to provide for your family. So we need more good paying jobs for men and women! And when the field is really level (and there are so many studies that show that BOTH men and women tend to unconsciously show bias TOWARDS men) then we can spend more time addressing the needs of the poor down trodden male.
        Until then, I will continue to tell my son that he has to work hard, treat others like he’d like to be treated, be respectful of others (male or female), and recognize that he has the right to pursue happiness, but he’s not entitled to take it from others.

    • ThirdWayForward

      Exactly what is the poor analogy, and why exactly was it a poor one?

      Those who can only see the world in terms of opposing gender (or racial, or religious, or sexual preference….) categories cannot fathom how anyone could think otherwise.

      They judge individuals on the basis of their group membership, even those that the individuals have absolutely no control over (such as male/female, skin color, national origin, native language, native religion, sexual orientation).

      What’s more, they believe their prejudices to be justified beliefs. The beliefs are difficult to dislodge, because there is no evidence, however strong, that will convince a true believer to the contrary (for example, that a man is not in some way covertly sexist).

      This mis-categorization is the conceptual basis of all group-isms: racism, sexism, nationalism/tribalism, religious bigotry, and the others that plague our world. But concepts are not the animus behind acts of violence — most bigots, of whatever stripe, don’t act out their bigotry in violent fashion. Rage is the root problem.

    • Bill98

      “And before the backlash begins – take a breath and ask your mother, your wife, your girlfriend or daughter what she thinks and how she feels”
      How about asking the same of your father, husband, boyfriend, or son? Since they are much more likely to be a victim of violence than their female counterparts, and were the majority of the victims in this case, maybe some concern should be shown to them, as well.

  • Sy2502

    I think they have things backward. Misogyny isn’t the culprit here. It was simply the way this mentally ill guy channeled his problems and his hate. Some of these guys channel their hate in racism (see the guy that opened fire in the Sikh temple, or various antisemitic attacks) others in sexism. It’s a scapegoat and means nothing. It could have been anything. It could have been people with ginger hair and freckles. He needed an external representation of his hate. What we should really discuss is why ALL these loonies are men, and why so many mentally ill psychopaths choose women as their primary target of hate. Is it because they are cowards, and women are easier prey? Is it because women (intended as s-e-x) are something they want but can’t get, and therefore source of frustration? Is it because they don’t see them as human beings? It would be interesting to know.

    • brettearle

      Hatred gloms on to one’s object of Hatred.

      Evil gloms on to the Hatred

      Mental Illness magnifies the Hatred.

      Hatred, Mental illness, and Evil will always find other people to despise or to destroy.

      Maybe we could argue that men are intrinsically more violent.

      Ethology could likely substantiate that claim in the Animal Kingdom.

      And human beings are part of that Kingdom.

  • Eric S. Johansson

    I’ve been listening/learning about these issues and thinking about them in the small. how maybe the problem starts with the interpersonal and grows to the institutional. if we can change person to person behavior, institutions will change from a combination of internal and external forces.

    changes at a personal level is difficult. I’m thinking that the only safe path is to treat women and and men a gender neutral way in all aspects of life, professional and personal.

    gender neutral personal relationships are important because I suspect much of the unintentional misogyny start with personal/intimate relationships. If you can keep it gender neutral in your intimate space, you can stop contributing to the problem in the rest of life.

  • Sidney

    Unfortunately, in this country of ours, mass shootings have become the new norm. We fold our arms and watch….. until, one of our loved ones get killed. Wait until one GOP or NRA executive have their family member gunned down. I suspect the tune will change.

  • hennorama

    Bricksy — thank you for bravely sharing your personal experiences.

    Hopefully you will not have similar experiences in the future, but if you do, I would encourage you to report these to relevant authorities. Please also consider seeking counseling or support groups where you can further explore these experiences before you react with violence, or otherwise damage yourself or others.

    Thanks again for your bravery in sharing these obviously traumatic experiences.

  • nkandersen

    That site was ‘When Women Refuse.’

    —> http://whenwomenrefuse.tumblr.com/

    Best,

    nick andersen
    web producer | on point radio

  • AC

    you know – the first thing i thought of, as a woman, when i saw and heard this Elliot Roger was a ‘gender’ based thought, but nothing like this. i said to my husband, this seems to be a weird type of ‘suicide’ for lonely males of a certain age, they’re going to take some one out with them…i have no idea what this onpoint discussion is trying to say in direct relation to this event with feminists (and i am one). going back, it seems the recent younger mass murderers, were all sort of misfits. they’ll kill whomever gets in there way, even children. maybe they know no one will fully understand their pain unless they some how force a horror to occur – maybe that’s ego?…..
    i’m not a psychologist, just sharing my initial gut reaction. i thought ‘male suicide’ not ‘men hating women’

    • HonestDebate1

      Interesting.

    • kenrubenstein

      That sounds about right.

    • brettearle

      I think that, ultimately, it goes beyond feeling and believing that to get a point across, one must resort to indiscriminate violence.

      I think ultimately it is the result of Blind Rage–from Evil, from Mental illness, or from a combination of both.

    • jefe68

      Have you seen or read any of Rodger’s rants?
      Because I’m not getting the feeling you have, and that’s the reason for the show, his misogyny, however misplaced and fueled by his mental state, was clearly there and it’s not something to be dismissed.
      Whatever drove this individual to do the horrific things he did where based on some misguided ideal that he developed. It was not something that happened in a vacuum.

      • brettearle

        Of course it isn’t. I agree.

        But without his mental illness–which I assume is a larger part of the reason for his behavior–many lives might have been saved.

        • jefe68

          It’s clear this kid had a lot of mental problems. It’s also clear that our nation has a no real way of dealing with with mental illness, which I feel would have been a better show for this hour in response to this horrific event.

          That said, it’s clear he hated women and had serious rage issues which seemed to build. I’m not sure how much I’ve been reading about Rodger is true. But so far what I’ve read about him speaks to a very immature kid with serious anger management issues. Who goes into a rage for not winning the lottery?

          Rage does not mean one is mentally ill.
          It does point to him being emotionally disturbed.

      • AC

        no, i’m just listening to the show now. they are sort of making a point, i’m not dismissing it, just saying i did have a gender-based initial snap-judgement and it had more to do with ego and suicide…i’m still listening, learning….

  • kenrubenstein

    Misogyny is clearly at play here, but in this case it’s not so simple. His extreme narcissism and sense of entitlement seemed to direct his anger as much at the “obnoxious” guys who got all the girls, as at the girls themselves. He didn’t discriminate in his choice of victims, four out of six of whom were male. Furthermore, he complained not only of his inability to find a girlfriend, but also of his lack of friends in general. He was so self-obsessed as to not understand why people didn’t gravitate to him.

    • IHateFatChicks

      No, it’s not.

      • kenrubenstein

        No what’s not? The guy said he was po’d at women. That’s misogyny by definition.

        • IHateFatChicks

          He was mentally ill. It has nothing to do with misogyny and only half-wits and simpletons believe otherwise.

          • kenrubenstein

            He set out to drive to a sorority house and kill some women. Wake up. hateguy.

  • BarbaraUSA

    I have found through experience that even gasoline stations can be risky when one is alone at night — especially in remote places. So I won’t even buy a car where the gas tank is on opposite side of my driver’s door. I need to feel that I can really quickly get in my car if there is an aggressive or menacing man (or a drunk man) beside me at the gasoline station.
    This is a tiny piece of how life is lived by women.

    • Tim

      Statistically, it’s actually less likely for women to be attacked. Men are twice as likely to be carjacked, 4 times as likely to be murder victims, and 2.5 times as likely to be assaulted. That’s not to invalidate anything you’re saying, but statistically, making violent crime a “women’s issue,” is just not warranted by the data. I don’t think having to be scared of strangers is at all unique to gender.

      • BarbaraUSA

        Understood. I have brothers and sons. They have valid mechanisms to avoid violence in their daily lives. However, I have significant background in statistics and the numbers are quite wrong. What happens vis a vis violence against women is so very often NOT included in the numbers we all too often worship.

        • Tim

          I don’t get what you mean. Coroners aren’t ruling dead women murder victims out of spite, or when the police come across dead women they just say “oh well, not a real person, let’s not count it.”

          That doesn’t seem like a likely explanation to a 80/20 split. I find it hard to believe women under report car jackings as well. It’s possible that murder is an anomaly, and under reporting explains all the other trends, but that seems a little far fetched. There is a stigma attached to domestic abuse, but not to being mugged. Criminals, for whatever reason, tend to target men more (or it’s all under reporting)

          • Ia

            I agree with your valid points, very well said. The only area I would like to add to is that of rape – this is incredibly highly underreported by women. Not to say it doesn’t happen to men, and men are also likely to be too embarrassed to report it, however the vast majority of rape victims are women. This is only one type of violent crime, but it is a very, very traumatic and invasive type. So traumatic that far, far too many women prefer to forget it than to relive it in court. This, to me, is the main difference between male and female focused violent crime.

        • Bill98

          “the numbers are quite wrong”.
          And you base this on…what, precisely?

          • IHateFatChicks

            Nothing, she’s ridiculous and wrong.

        • IHateFatChicks

          The actual empirical data and statistics prove you don’t know what you’re talking about, at all.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Correct, but these “ladies” don’t like facts. They spew the same false bile in an attempt to justify their position(s) which are conflict with the actual facts and data.

    • hennorama

      BarbaraUSA — your story is indeed emblematic of all the ways, large and small, in which women and girls might alter their behavior in consideration of the possible threat posed by the simple presence of a man or boy.

      This is not limited to women and girls of course, but I daresay that far fewer men and boys would alter their behavior in such ways, or even give it a second’s worth of consideration.

      • IHateFatChicks

        77% of ALL murders are of men. That destroys your invented theory.

        • hennorama

          [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — please, tell me all about my “theory,” since you seem to know all.

          Please also present a source for your claims, and the basis for it. For example, are you talking about murders only, or homicides in general? What geographic locations? What about murders and/or homicides in which the sex of the victim is unknown?

          I look forward to your response.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Here is the 2008 data and guess what: It says the same THING:

            http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

            “Homicide Trends in the US: 1980- 2008.”

            Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.

            Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).
            Now, please, grow up. You’re wrong and data proves how delusional and wrong you are.

    • IHateFatChicks

      And you would be wrong. The actual data demonstrates wrong and delusional you are.

      “A total of 215,273 homicides were studied, 77% of which involved male victims and 23% female victims. Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27)”

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092

      • hennorama

        [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry -- you're the second fool today who cited the same ridiculously out of date source, which only discussed "fatal violence and victimization," and not all types of violence.

        In addition, your treasured source says the following, regarding fatal violence between women and men, which you conveniently omitted (emphasis added):

        Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27), their risk of being killed by a spouse or intimate acquaintance was higher (RR = 1.23).

        • IHateFatChicks

          It’s actual provable data and men are FAR more likely to be murdered and/or assaulted than women are. I’m patiently waiting for you legitimate facts, citations and data. Provide them or be quiet.

          That’s ironic that you call me the “fool” when you’re, in fact, the fool with a tinfoil hat on who has no facts or data to support your ridiculous, irrational, shrill, histrionic comments.

          • hennorama

            [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] – Thank you for your response, in which you show your true colors.

            You are so brilliant, you failed to recognize that BarbaraUSA was not discussing violence against men, that vast majority of which involves other men as offenders, and instead was discussing violence against women, the vast majority of which also involves men as offenders.

            In other words, both male and female victims of violence are most often victims of violence commited by men.

            Instead of discussing this, you foolishly hang your hat on ridiculously out of date information, and ignore the fact that your out of date yet treasured source shows the much higher risk to women, pertaining to thier intimate partners.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • IHateFatChicks

            I already cited it. Either you’re illiterate or the tinfoil hat is too tight on your head. Reading comprehension, get some.

          • IHateFatChicks

            My “true colors”, unlike you, are fact based. I’d happily compare my education (BS in Chem. E., MS in Physics, MBA in Finance), CV, Balance Sheet and accomplishments with someone like you, any day. I know what facts are and deal in them, not irrational histrionics.

          • hennorama

            [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — thank you for your thoroughly unresponsive response.

            I seriously doubt that anyone other than you cares about your CV. That you wish to crow about it speak volumes, however.

            Thanks again, for both your thoroughly unresponsive response, and the added coloration.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Says the failure with no education, job prospects or life. I deal in facts and my background, unlike yours obviously, is anchored in empirical data and facts. Reading comprehension, get some.

          • hennorama

            LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for your (again) unresponsive response.

            You know nothing about me, meaning your suppositions are merely assumptions, and not factual.

            Is that what you meant when you wrote “…my background, unlike yours obviously, is anchored in empirical data and facts”? You certainly demonstrated your “background” quite well.

            Thanks again for your unresponsive response

          • IHateFatChicks

            Your comments speak volumes about you so, yes, I know a significant amount about you. Regale us with your educational background so we become amazed and realize what a GED can do for the common citizen. You’re logically, intellectually and factually challenged.

          • hennorama

            LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for your (again) unresponsive, assumptive, and nonfactual response.

  • Tim

    I get being appalled by this lunatic’s statements, but I’m not sure about making violent crime an issue of “cultural misogyny,” or a gender issue. Violent crime effects all of society; people who are murdered are other people’s spouses, brothers, sisters, mothers, etc.

    Whether or not online misogynists or mental illness were “most” responsible for this particular horrible incident (and I would say there is far more evidence to blame the latter), the issue of violent crime in America is not an issue of misogyny. Men make up just under 80% of all murder victims, meaning they are 4 times more likely to be killed. Indeed in this horrible incident the majority of the victims were men. They are far more likely (multiple times as likely in many categories) to experience every type of violent crime outside sexual crimes. That is not to say, however, that violent crime is a “men’s” issue either.

    Mass incarceration is often framed as a race issue, and rightly so to some degree. We don’t view it as a gender issue, even though 92% of all prisoners are men, despite almost identical drug use patterns in women, because we recognize that mass incarceration effects the entire society it touches. I think the same is true of violent crime, especially these sorts of mass shootings.

    That aside, blaming this on PUAs seems to me like blaming Columbine on Doom and Marilyn Manson, or blaming Jared Laughner on the Tea Party. I’m not a fan of PUAs or the Tea Party but in this case it’s scape goating for political advantage .

    • Nanite

      Actually, according to the LA times, at least, he was diagnosed with no mental or neurological condition at any point. Mental illness was not, in any way, a factor in what he did. Misogyny and racism clearly were, in his own (ludicrously long) words.

      • whoo123

        Nanite,

        It was reported somewhere that he had aspberger’s syndrome , which is at the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum. It is characterized by social deficits.

        • Nanite

          Well aware of that, my girlfriend and a couple of friends have it (professionally diagnosed, not self-diagnosed). None of them particularly inclined to murder, by the way, and would be seriously offended if you suggest it contributed to his rampage.
          Here’s my source, for completeness:

          http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-frantic-parents-isla-vista-shootings-20140525-story.html

          Frankly, until the details get sorted out, either could be true, but I’m inclined to think that if there had been a specific diagnosis of something it would’ve been circulated widely.

          • Tim

            Most schizophrenics, the vast vast majority, don’t engage in violent crime, and especially not rampage killings. In some cases however, schizophrenic psychosis has clearly been connected to rampage killings.

            I never got why the same connection is so opposed by autism advocates. It’s not saying “autism causes X,” it’s saying “in specific scenarios it can contribute to X.”

            Of course not all rampage killers are mentally ill. The Columbine killers, Timothy McVeigh, etc. were not.

          • Nanite

            Put it this way – you could probably cite cases where schizophrenic psychosis became violent. I can’t think of a single one where Asberger’s contributed to violent crime in any significant way or wasn’t connected with some other mental illness. In my experience and apparently that of a few studies, people with Asberger’s are intensely empathetic, therefore probably unlikely to commit violence on another.

            http://seventhvoice.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/new-study-finds-that-individuals-with-aspergers-syndrome-dont-lack-empathy-in-fact-if-anything-they-empathize-too-much/

          • Tim

            “Several case studies of young adults have indicated that certain diagnostically relevant traits among individuals with HFASDs (high functioning autism spectrum disorders), such as impaired social understanding and restricted empathy, may lead to violent criminal behavior in specific provocative circumstances.10,13,14″

            http://www.jaapl.org/content/40/2/177.full

            IDK, I’m not a specialist. The study seems to be saying that Autism is generally not associated with a higher risk of criminal violence, but that in given circumstances it increases the risk over what one would expect.

          • Nanite

            Neither am I, frankly. According to Wikipedia, those studies aren’t really supported by data, but I can’t for the life of me get access to the citations – someone apparently decided to charge for them, and charge $40 as well. So I can’t directly cite the source myself, but there it is.

            Of course, this is all getting away from the fact that we have no concrete proof that E.R had any kind professional diagnosis despite seeing therapists for years. So claiming mental illness was a factor is more than likely untrue, unless he was taught by Hannibal Lector how to dodge therapists training.

          • whoo123

            I didn’t mean to imply that Asperger’s has any direct connection to violence…was tossing that out in reference to his inability to form close relationships with males OR females.

            His parents did call the police to his residence in April because of videos he posted mentioning suicide and violence, so clearly there were signs.

          • Nanite

            Well, yeah, there were signs that he was hateful, narcissistic and possibly dangerous in those videos. Sod all to suggest he had a mental or neurological disorder.

            To believe that people can only be driven to this level of hate by either is a both a disservice to those with mental or neurological and conditions as well as naïve in the extreme – the KKK, the Nazi’s, various other groups or individuals, were all sane, at least so far as we know.

          • IHateFatChicks

            You don’t prescribe psychiatric medication to people who aren’t diagnosed and sick. He was prescribed medication and refused to take it:

            http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

            He suffered from Paranoia and “heard voices”. This is classic paranoid schizophrenia. He was prescribed anti-psychotic medication.
            You are wrong.

          • Nanite

            Actually, you do.

            http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2013/12/are-too-many-kids-taking-antipsychotic-drugs/index.htm
            It’s also prescribed in behavioural cases, which makes a lot of freaking sense in this case. Again, as I say up there, there has been absolutely no consistency with what he was supposedly diagnosed with, mostly a bunch of speculation, and at least one source suggests he never was.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Actually, NO you don’t. That’s medical malpractice. He was diagnosed, prescribed and refused treatment. Grow up.
            Just an FYI: Consumer Reports is not a medical periodical, simpleton.

      • Bill98

        “Mental illness was not, in any way, a factor in what he did”
        The man had been in therapy since he was a child. His parents had sought help for him for years. Oh, and he murdered a bunch of people…not a whole lot of doubt that mental illness was the primary factor in what he did.

        • Nanite

          In therapy since he was a child, and never once diagnosed with anything? Does that sounds overly likely to you?

          • Bill98

            We don’t know what diagnosis may or may not have been made. At least, not yet. Such records are confidential.

          • Nanite

            True, but my point wasn’t that we don’t know, but that, again according to my link below, he was never diagnosed with anything at all. Not it has yet to be released, assuming it ever will, but never diagnosed with anything.

      • Mike

        Just listen to the rant — the kid was not in touch with reality. Truly. We don’t need to know that a shrink diagnosed him officially to know that this kid had problems. His parents, for God sake, weren’t concerned that he was a misogynist. They were concerned that he was a sick kid.

        • Nanite

          I thought they were concerned that he sounded dangerous, but anyway.
          I’ve listened to the rant – honestly, it didn’t sound too different from what I see written online by self-proclaimed “nice guys”, just that when read out loud, it’s creepy as hell. But even that fails to address my main point – not that whatever diagnosis he received during therapy has yet to be released, but that there was no diagnosis, despite years of therapy.

          • Mike

            Well, I don’t know which sites you are attracted to online, but I have never, ever heard anything like that.

          • IHateFatChicks

            He was prescribed anti-psychotic medication by a Psychiatrist for paranoia and hearing “voices”, which he refused to take. He WAS diagnosed and it has all the earmarks of paranoid schizophrenia.

      • OnPointComments

        I have read multiple articles that state Elliot Rodger was in therapy for 14 years, beginning at age 8 and continuing with multiple therapists at times and daily sessions during high school. He was prescribed Rispiridone, an anti-psychotic drug used for treating schizophrenia, which he quit taking. Elliot Rodger was mentally ill.

    • whoo123

      The majority of his intended victims were ‘ hot blonde sorority girls’ which is why this particular conversation is about his misogyny and sense of entitlement.

      • hennorama

        whoo123 — in his last video, the suspect used a different term, which is not allowed in this forum, and which rhymes with “but”:

        “you girls have rejected me .. I will punish you all for it … I will enter the hottest sorority at UCSB …” and “slaughter every single spoiled stuck-up blond sl*t I see inside there…”

      • Tim

        Jared Laughner’s victims were picked out due to some convoluted far right political theory he had going in his head. I still think it was pretty ridiculous and irresponsible for many in the media to accuse Tea Party politicians of having spurred on or motivated his rampage in the aftermath. Lots of people frequent PUA sites, PUA has existed for well over a decade; a sizable portion of the electorate are Tea Partiers, most do not kill people. The common denominator is not these admittedly distasteful fringe ideologies.

        The Columbine killers picked out specific victims for being “conformists.” That doesn’t mean Marilyn Manson and goth culture was responsible for their actions for preaching nonconformity. Although many made that exact same argument at the time.

        Point being, it’s silly to draw conclusions about the state of society by how flawed individuals who go on crazed murder sprees rationalize their actions.

      • HonestDebate1

        He expressed plenty of outrage at men and half of his victims were men.

        • IHateFatChicks

          MOST of his victims were men.

      • Mike

        The point is that the conversation should be about HIS misogyny, not cultural misogyny.

        • Mari McAvenia

          This conversation is about women’s responses to the killer’s manifesto as they appeared after the murders, en masse, online. Because the killer started out by stabbing his male roommates before taking up guns and shooting random strangers as he drove around a nice suburban neighborhood
          ( this, alone, should send a shudder up every person’s spine )
          the acts themselves were not misogynistic “hate crimes”. The mindset that Rodger exhibited prior to committing the RANDOM murders and maimings is what we’re talking about. Lawyers should have a field day with this case. Mens rights trolls already have.

          • Mike

            ………………WHAT?

          • IHateFatChicks

            This “case” is about mental illness, only. Period, end of story, full stop.

      • IHateFatChicks

        MOST of his victims were men. Get the memo.

    • OnPointComments

      Time agrees with you that it wasn’t misogny that caused Elliot Rodger to kill.

      MISOGYNY DIDN’T TURN ELLIOT RODGER INTO A KILLER
      Yes, Elliot Rodger was a misogynist — but blaming a cultural hatred for women for his actions loses sight of the real reason why isolated, mentally ill young men turn to mass murder

      http://time.com/114354/elliot-rodger-ucsb-misogyny/

      Excerpt:

      Linking cultural misogyny to a specific mass shooting is more difficult…although Rodger appears to have been particularly angry at women (and men who were successful with women as he was not), there’s little common thread among mass-homicide perpetrators to target women. Mass-homicide perpetrators often target groups they particularly feel have wronged them, whether their own families, their work colleagues or society as a whole.

      The very isolation that mass-homicide perpetrators feel makes them unlikely candidates to respond to societal trends. Rodger appears to have indeed been a misogynist, but this misogyny appears to have raged from within, a product of his anger, sexual frustrations and despondency rather than anything “taught” to him by society.

      All of this serves to distract us from the commonalities between such shooters. With few exceptions, they are angry, resentful, mentally ill individuals.

      • Mike

        Yeah, great, but we don’t need the support of Time, or any other mas media rag, to see clearly with our own two eyes that this is true.

  • brettearle

    You ascribed positions to me and then attacked them.

    Your presumptuous reaction is typical of Radical Feminism.

    My point was that frustration can be a factor that can contribute to an exaggerated response..

    I was NOT suggesting a pipeline, 1 to 1 connection, between frustration and violence.

    When we look a violent crime, we need to do a Forensic analysis that includes family history, cultural history, lifestyle, and personality, etc.

    Many contributing factors can be part of why an individual commits violence.

    Frustration is one of them.

  • HonestDebate1

    I think it’s pretty creepy that his website is still up.

    https://plus.google.com/112420115103149734170/posts

  • Ia

    As a thirty year old women I have been through many experiences that I accepted as normal from men (from cat calls to threats to being followed and run off the road while driving), but didn’t recognize the cumulative impact of these things until I took a sociology course in college. It’s true that not all men are bad, of course! But it is equally true that in many places in the USA a women isn’t comfortable walking alone at night due to fear of rape. How many men feel this way? How many men in the USA look over their shoulder when walking alone at night? This is but one small example of the pervasiveness of harassment towards women in the USA.

    • whoo123

      Clearly there are posters here who just don’t get it.

      The fact that in recent months, both the military and universities have been in the news for mishandling/discouraging reporting of sexual assaults…that the old white guys in congress fought the reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act…that over 5 million women a year are victims of domestic abuse — all point to the prevalence of misogyny in our society. Never mind that there are 49,000 car jackings.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Another ridiculous comment.

        • whoo123

          Troll.

          • IHateFatChicks

            No, I’m citing actual facts and empirical, substantiated data which you glaringly lack and are incapable of producing. Funny how actual facts work in contradiction to “opinions” and “anecdotal” data.

      • brettearle

        Of COURSE, Misogyny is NOT rare.

        But Misogynists DON’T OFTEN KILL PEOPLE.

        Roger DID. There’s MORE to the story than the hatred of women.

        WAKE UP.

        • IHateFatChicks

          You’re wasting your time. They live in an echo chamber of their own delusions.

    • IHateFatChicks

      Ridiculous.

    • brettearle

      Mark Cuban just spoke publicly of looking over his shoulder at night.

      Cuban’s a billionaire and can afford any security guard he wants.

      But he is no woman.

      Woman are more at risk, but all people are at risk.

    • ZimbaZumba

      > How many men in the USA look over their shoulder when walking alone at night?

      You clearly have no understanding of the lives men live.

  • Mike

    Amen, brother. I have echoed your very same comments on a few spots in this conversation. More and more men are awakening to this tyranny and speaking out.

  • Mike

    This helps to put things into perspective. His parents weren’t concerned that he was a misogynist. They were concerned that he was mentally ill and could harm people. Ask his parents if this is about cultural misogyny and the crimes of “men”, or about a son who had mental problems.

    • Mike

      Let’s watch and see — do his parents, in the aftermath of this — wage a war against cultural misogyny? Or, will they try to get people to keep guns out of the hands of people with mental illness?
      That really helps to see how absurd the angle on today’s show is — it’s distorted beyond belief.

      • Mike

        Half of the people killed were men, for God’s sake.

        • whoo123

          And your point is….?

          In his own words, it was a ‘War On Women’ and his target was the 120+ members of the Alpha Phi sorority.

          By his own admission , he had ‘stalked’ them on several occasions.

          • brettearle

            So you’re another Radical Feminist who denies the major impulse of Mental Illness in this story?

            OF COURSE, he was a Misogynist.

            But Misogynists don’t go around, all the time, killing men and women, indiscriminately.

            Get your values in order and see the reality of the tragedy for what it is.

          • IHateFatChicks

            No, it wasn’t. Grow up.

          • Mike

            Yes, and he also killed men. He despised the men too.
            What is YOUR point? That because this sick kid hated women because of how they reacted to him, that ALL men, or the majority of men also hate them?

          • brettearle

            When confronted with rational questions, she greets them with silence.

          • jefe68

            The men he murdered were his roommates.
            It seems that he stabbed them while they were asleep. Fearing that they would find out about his plan. He was also targeting couples.

    • brettearle

      The Radical Feminist movement, on this thread, is exploiting this tragedy to further its own Agenda.

      Was the killer a misogynist?

      Undoubtedly.

      But it was his Mental Illness that, very likely, put him over the edge and, irreversibly, into the malicious territory of murderous violence.

      To think otherwise is to encourage mistrust and conflict between genders.

      • whoo123

        radical feminist movement?? Is that you, Rush?

        • IHateFatChicks

          Is that the best you can do or do you have facts you can cite and source?

        • brettearle

          If you don’t blame this violence on Mental illness, more than Misogyny, than many men on this thread offer a justifiable backlash.

          It is women like you who increase mistrust between genders.

          • whoo123

            It’s funny how you and the troll both randomly capitalize nouns. If I didn’t know better, I’d assume you’re the same person. ;)

          • Mike

            And you’re also Amanda

          • brettearle

            Please explain how that comment, above, furthers the quality of mutual understanding in the dialogue.

            It is a throw-away line that drifts toward meaninglessness.

          • IHateFatChicks

            We’re dealing in facts. You’re dealing in delusion and falsehoods.

          • brettearle

            She’s hopeless.

            But, maybe, the silver lining in the cloud is that she doesn’t seem to be garnering much support.

        • IHateFatChicks

          He’s right. I voted for Obama 2x, and Brettearle is correct.

          • brettearle

            I voted for Obama twice as well. Not a lie.

          • Mike

            I made that mistake only once.

          • IHateFatChicks

            I made the mistake twice and am living to regret it now.

  • IHateFatChicks

    This is NOT about misogyny. That’s a ridiculous, unsubstantiated, irrational and a logically/factually/intellectually challenged comment and premise. The ONLY thing this is about is a profoundly mentally ill ADULT who was provided every opportunity for treatment, counseling and medication and REFUSED to take his medication and follow through on his treatment. That is ALL it is about. This is the same as Adam Lanza who murdered 27 people, James Holmes shooting 70 and killing 12 in Aurora, Ted Kaczynski sending pipe bombs killing 3 and injuring 23 others, Andrea Yates who drowned her 5 children in a bath tub (is THAT Misogyny?), Ebony Wilkerson who drove her 3 children into the ocean to murder them (Mysogyny?), Miriam Carey who drove her car into the White House (is that Misogyny), Carol Coronado who stabbed her 3 little girls to death in their home (is that Misogyny?), etc.

    The ONLY thing this is about is mental illness and an adults refusal to accept treatment and his parents efforts to get him treatment unaware of how bad it would be. These issues are the same in each of these cases. You can’t save everyone. You can’t treat everyone. Making the assertion that it’s about MYSOGYNY is such a ludicrous, politically correct, erroneous premise it’s nauseating and is entirely unsupported by the actual facts and data and without merit. Is this what NPR has become: a mouthpiece for ultra liberal politics promoting a political agenda? A propaganda machine to compete with the mouth breathers at Fox News?

  • Tim

    Maybe my experience was skewed because I grew up in a high crime area with a lot of racial tension, but as a male, I got yelled at out of cars or by strangers all the time. On two occasions this escalated into physical violence. I certainly know a number of men who have been “jumped” by groups of strangers at night simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even as an adult this happens; last time I was in DC I had a group of drunks half halfheartedly threaten to rob me as I was buying beer. I don’t know what the ratios are, but it certainly wasn’t uncommon to have homophobic slurs hurled at you by passing cars growing up as a male (now I drive everywhere so it’s less of a problem :)

    Anyhow, I remember the young guys in high school and college who used to cat call girls, and the guys who used to scream obscenities at other males while looking to start fights. There was a tremendous overlap. That women are called certain words, and cat called, is certainly due to a culture of misogyny/gender norms, but I don’t think it’s entirely driven by misogyny. It’s a behavior indicative of degenerates and anti-social criminals, the behavior is also modified by gender norms though.

    To be clear, this is not to invalidate women’s experiences, my point is that similar things happen to men. Men are in fact far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women (80% of all murder victims are male for instance), which makes sense in my experience. I’ve seen a lot of drunk guys pick fights and it’s always been against other men. My point would be that what the speakers were taking as evidence of the prevalence of violent misogyny, may in fact be evidence of the way in which misogyny and gender roles shape anti-social behavior in the populace at large.

    • IHateFatChicks

      I wouldn’t get married if I were guaranteed to win the lottery.

      • Mike

        Actually, one of the major things that ended my marriage was that, after supporting my wife for 8 years through a PhD program, with unpaid internships and Summers off (ie, no feeling that she should have to work during the Summer), I felt I needed to go back to school for a year and a half to get a second Masters. It was unacceptable to her. So while men are being demonized on shows like today’s, many of them are simultaneously being exploited.

        • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

          I sympathize with your situation.
          But I really think it may be more of a victim game or codependency, which is not necessarily a gender issue.

          • Mike

            Thanks, but I’m not soliciting sympathy. I’m trying to illustrate the gender point. There may be some validity to your point in the abstract, but in reality we discussed this. I was viewed as being an irresponsible man for wanting to quit my job and go to school for a year and a half after holding down the fort and sacrificing my own career for 8 years. There was an implicit assumption that women get advanced degrees for self-fulfillment — that they don’t have to do what guys are supposed to do, which is take the job that pays the most and sacrifice a degree of self-fulfillment to be a provider. I have a friend who was in a similar position. He supported his wife through a masters degree, and she got a job. After a year and a half she came home and announced that she didn’t like her boss and was quitting. He lamented that if he had done this it would not fly. Also, regarding my ex-wife, I have a friend who has a trust fund, so he doesn’t have to work. He is divorced, and he chooses not to work, and instead focuses on his kid, his volunteer work, running sports leagues, etc. My ex has declared that he is an irresponsible father because he doesn’t work and sets a bad example for his son. Yet, her friends who don’t work and stay home and do similar things —- that’s absolutely fine. This isn’t unusual.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            The intention behind my statement was not to patronize you. I was offering genuine compassion. I understand that is not the point of your statement. And I respect your statements as they were intended.

            After reading your second post, I am realizing this could be a generation gap.
            I am on the cusp of the millennial generation, and I have personally never encountered what you are talking about in my own past relationships.

            The situations you describe are obviously real and I have heard of this sort of thing. I guess because I have always dated very “progressive” women, I have never encountered it.

            I’m not claiming liberal women are “better”. I’m just saying the individuals I have dated didn’t view gender roles as static things.

    • Mike

      Nicely said.
      Of course, there are ways that women abuse men. One of the ones that I have experienced repeatedly is the double standard that women these days hold regarding traditional gender roles. I was in a relationship with a woman for whom I went out of the way to show her that I respected her independence, and wasn’t going to hold her to “traditional” gender roles. So, for example, I always cooked at least half the meal, set the table, cleaned up with her, etc. Yet, it was expected that I would take out her trash, drive her to the airport for routine business travel, pay for nights out.
      I also know of several women who told me that they had many female friends who exploited this double standard, and basically went out on lots of first dates with guys they sometimes weren’t interested in so that they could get free dinners.
      But we don’t ever talk about that. Why?

      • Tim

        Because it has nothing to do with violent crime, nor does it come anywhere close?

        Most violent crime is committed by men against men. Men commit far more violent crime against women than vice versa.

        • Bill98

          To Mike’s point, why is violent crime the only topic worthy of discussion? First, women may not commit it as often, but they do commit it. Why is that not worth talking about? But, second, the other things that Mike mentions are wrong, and are disproportionately committed by women. Why not discuss that? Because it might show that women aren’t always helpless victims?

  • Gurney Halleck

    I love feminists crowing about “sexual entitlement,” as if involuntarily celibate males are in the wrong to feel frustrated that they’re not getting sex/relationships.

    Here’s what’s going on: American society has sanctioned soft polygamy. The effect of this is that in post-sexual revolution America, female erotic capital is not distributed equitably among the male population: Some men get more than one woman’s “prime years.” This has the effect of blocking other men from sex/relationships. The sexual revolution, after all, did not increase the quantity of women. It just changed mores so that one man could simultaneously gladly have relationships with multiple women, or engage in serial relationships in which he keeps substituting his partners for younger women. The effect of all this is: Other men losing out in a way they didn’t when society heavily enforced monogamy.

    Either bring back strictly enforced monogamy, or legalize prostitution. Otherwise, the sexual frustration will continue and those males who are pre-disposed to violence and are sexually frustrated might keep engaging in behavior like Elliot Dodger’s out of despair and hopelessness.

    • Ia

      Huh…. You don’t have to use so many big words to say men can’t restrain their physical desires. That outlook is pretty childish and seems quite demeaning to men. And good lord, lets not forget about most of history (and current day society in many countries) during which men could have as many women as they wanted!

      • Gurney Halleck

        It’s not that men can’t restrain their “physical desires” but that human males have deep sexual desires. The male sex drive is stronger, more urgent and potent than that of the female. Western civilization has dealt with this problem by instituting the practice of strict monogamy, which was a socialist divvying of the good of female sexuality among the male population. Other societies allowed polygyny and were unstable and endlessly violent as a result.

        Society must either return to strict monogamist norms (no easy divorce, early marriage, etc) or simply complete the sexual revolution by decriminalizing prostitution. A situation in which female sexuality is unrestrained but male sexuality is restrained is going to lead to more Elliot Dodgers and more Sodinis.

      • IHateFatChicks

        Why would I get married when I like variety? I whole heartedly embrace the “sexual revolution” but I wouldn’t conduct myself differently even if it hadn’t occurred. I don’t believe in monogamy. It’s not natural nor fun. I prefer not to restrain my physical desires and wants, and I won’t.

    • Laude Primevera

      Involuntary celibate is a laughable term, it smacks of victim-hood. Nobody likes rejection, but to cry and whine that it is some how EVERYONE else at fault because you are being rejected is insane. As in not sane…like you should see a therapist.

      http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20025568

      …Sound familiar?

      All the other men are taking the girls you want? All of the women are at fault for not sleeping with you? Society is to blame too somehow, I guess, for treating women like people and not “erotic capital”?

      No…you are appalling and people are naturally driven away from detestable things.

      No one cares if you are sexually frustrated.

      It’s called natural selection, and if a person is deemed undesirable that is nobodies fault but their own.

      I hope all of you creeps from the manosphere go back there and stay where you belong. No one wants you around. Enjoy each others horrible company and terrible ideas.

    • jefe68

      Wow, what whining diatribe.

      The ads for you, poor sap.

    • AliceOtter33

      Yes, these disadvantaged boys are suffering at the hands of the growing sexual income inequality, because “female erotic capital is not distributed equitably among the male population”.

      Translation: We’ve allowed all the cows the option of giving away their milk away for free and some guys are too greedy to share.

      Listen to yourself.

      Your comment is the precise sound of sexual entitlement.

      And hopefully the sound and all others like it are a swelling swan song as the age Women as Chattel comes to a close.

  • IHateFatChicks

    The actual data demonstrates how wrong the women commenting here are.

    “A total of 215,273 homicides were studied, 77% of which involved male victims and 23% female victims. Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27)”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

    “Homicide Trends in the US: 1980- 2008.

    • hennorama

      [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — you are obsessively focused on ridiculously out of date information in your first link (homicides that occurred in the United States between 1976 and 1987), and on the extremely rare crime of homicide, in both links.

      The topic is not only about homicides.

      In addition, you fail to address the very basic fact that violent offenders are overwhelming male, whether the victim is male or female.

      From your first link (emphasis added):

      Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27), their risk of being killed by a spouse or intimate acquaintance was higher (RR = 1.23).Although women comprise more than half the U.S. population, they committed only 14.7% of the homicides noted during the study interval.

      From your second link:

      TABLE 4

      Homicide offenders and victims, by sex, 1980–2008

      Victim/offender relationship Percent

      Male offender/male victim 67.8%
      Male offender/female victim 21.0

      Female offender/male victim 9.0
      Female offender/female victim 2.2

      Note: Percentages are based on the 63.1% of homicides from 1980 through 2008 for which the
      victim/offender relationships were known.

      In other words, in cases in which the victim/offender relationships were known, 88.8% of offenders were male.

      And another quote from your second link:

       Males were 7 times more likely than females to commit murder in 2008 (figure 16).

      • IHateFatChicks

        So, you have nothing. Good to know. Being logically, intellectually and factually challenged in addition to being irrational, shrill, histrionic, bitter and angry obviously is your baseline. Let us know when you can come up with verifiable facts and empirical data. :)

        Reading comprehension, get some. I’m citing data from 2008. Are you daft?

        • hennorama

          [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — thank you for your response.

          Your own sources show that males are the vast majority of homicide offenders, in cases in which the victim/offender relationships were known, and that “Males were 7 times more likely than females to commit murder in 2008.”

          If you believe that to be “nothing,” so be it.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Honey, 77% of all victims are MEN. Get the memo. Reading comprehension, get some.

          • hennorama

            [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — thank you for your response.

            Again, you are citing only information about the extremely rare crime of homicide, and not addressing other forms of violence, or the very basic fact that violent offenders are overwhelming male, whether the victim is male or female..

            For example, regarding domestic violence, and using the same source you have, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, from a report published in April 2014, titled Nonfatal Domestic Violence, 2003–2012 (emphasis added):

            The majority of domestic violence was committed against females compared to males

            Among domestic violent victimizations, most were committed against females (76%) compared to males (24%), although the proportions varied by family relationship (figure 5). The majority of intimate partner violence was
            committed against females (82%), compared to males (18%). However, the proportion of violence against males and females was more evenly distributed for domestic violence perpetrated by immediate family members or other relatives. About 60% of violence by immediate family members and other relatives was committed against females, compared to about 40% of violence committed against males.

            See:
            http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ndv0312.pdf

          • IHateFatChicks

            Honey, the 77% of all people murdered are MEN. Do you get it? Do you understand? Are you illiterate or just deaf to facts?

          • hennorama

            [YouDontCareForLargeYoungPoultry] — thank you for your response.

            Four points:

            1. Homicides and murders are not the same thing. Sorry your brilliant self keeps crowing about murders, while citing information about homicides. Are you illiterate or simply ignorant?

            2. Using your treasured source, in homicide cases in which the victim/offender relationships were known, 88.8% of offenders were male.

            3. Using your treasured source, in homicide cases in which the victim/offender relationships were known, male offenders committed homicide on male victims nearly 68 percent of the time.

            4. Using your treasured source, in homicide cases in which the victim/offender relationships were known, and the genders of the offender(s) and victim(s) were different, 70 percent of the cases involved male offenders who committed homicide on female victims.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Newsflash: Honey, homicide IS murder. You’re delusional, uneducated, unemployed trailer trash. You have no idea what you’re talking about. I recommend you stop before you look even more ridiculous than you already, obviously, are.

          • hennorama

            HaterOfLargeYounfPoulty – thank you for your response.

            Sorry for your ignorance and inaccuracy.

            Murder is homicide, but homicide is not necessarily murder. You can look it up, but given your ignorance, you may need to be led to the definition:

            Since your ridiculously out of date source “analyzed Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports data on homicides … between 1976 and 1987,” here’s the FBI’s definition of Criminal Homicide, from their Uniform Crime Reporting Handbook (Note that FBI UCR data is only concerned with Criminal Homicide):

            Criminal Homicide—Murder and Nonnegligent Manslaughter (1a)

            Definition: The willful (nonnegligent) killing of one human being by another

            Here are some of their caveats and exclusions:

            Suicides, traffic fatalities, and fetal deaths are excluded from the UCR Program; however, some accidental deaths are classified as Criminal Homicide—Manslaughter by Negligence (lb).

            Justifiable Homicide

            Certain willful killings must be classified as justifiable or excusable. In UCR, Justifiable Homicide is defined as and limited to:

            • The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
            • The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.

            NOTE: Deaths of persons due to their own negligence, accidental deaths not resulting from gross negligence, and traffic fatalities are not included in the category Manslaughter by Negligence

            Criminal Homicide—Manslaughter by Negligence (1b)

            Definition: The killing of another person through gross negligence.

            See:
            http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/additional-ucr-publications/ucr_handbook.pdf

            And here are the BJS definitions, which differ from those used in the FBI UCR data collections:

            Murder

            (1) Intentionally causing the death of another person without extreme provocation or legal justification or (2) causing the death of another while committing or attempting to commit another crime.

            Nonnegligent/voluntary manslaughter

            Intentionally and without legal justification causing the death of another when acting under extreme provocation. The combined category of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter excludes involuntary or negligent manslaughter, conspiracies to commit murder, solicitation of murder, and attempted murder.

            Note that the definitions above, like the FBI’s definitions, exclude Justifiable Homicides, such as the killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.

            See:
            http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tdtp&tid=3

            And finally, the more general definitionof Homicide, per legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com:

            Homicide
            The killing of one human being by another human being.

            Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.

            See:
            http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide

            Thanks again for your response, despite its inaccuracy.

    • hennorama

      LargeYoungPoultryHater — you wrote the following:

      “77% of ALL murders are of men.”
      “It’s actual provable data and men are FAR more likely to be murdered and/or assaulted than women are.”
      “Honey, 77% of all victims are MEN.”
      “Honey, the 77% of all people murdered are MEN.”

      No doubt someone as educated and accomplished, and with such a CV and “Balance Sheet” as you would not have overlooked the Methodology of the Homicide Trends in the United States, 1980-2008 report, or the caveats of your other, ridiculously outdated source, which studied “homicides that occurred in the United States between 1976 and 1987,” correct? No doubt a person such as yourself wouldn’t have omitted other, more current data, from the same source you used, that do not support your claims, right?

      Quoting your BJS source (emphasis added):

      Methodology

      Homicide as defined here includes murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, which is the willful killing of one human being by another. The general analyses excluded deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder. Justifiable homicides based on the reports of law enforcement agencies are analyzed separately. Deaths from the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, are not included in any of the analyses. These homicide data are based solely on police investigation, as opposed to the determination of a court, medical examiner, coroner, jury, or other judicial body.

      Not all agencies that report offense information to the FBI also submit supplemental data on homicides. About 91% of homicides reported in the UCR are included in the SHR. To account for the total number of homicides, this analysis weighted the total number of homicide victims included in the SHR data to match national and state estimates of the total number of homicide victims prepared by the FBI. All victim-based analyses are adjusted in this manner.

      While many agencies report supplemental data on homicides, much of the data concerning offenders may not be reported because no suspects were identified or the agency chose not to report the information. The most significant problem in using SHR data to analyze offender characteristics is the sizable and growing number of homicides in the data file for which no offender information is reported. Ignoring these homicides with no offender information would understate calculated rates of off ending by particular subgroups of the population, distort trends over time among these same subgroups, and bias observed patterns of off ending to the extent that the rate of missing offender data is associated with offender characteristics.

      In your world, does “ALL murders” mean “ALL murders, plus nonnegligent manslaughters, and except for those we excluded and/or weren’t reported and we had to adjust for”?

      ==========

      No doubt you wouldn’t have overlooked that the ridiculously outdated source not only did not study “murders,” it didn’t study “ALL murders,” as you claimed. Quoting your ridiculously outdated source (emphasis added):

      Only cases that involved victims aged 15 years or older were included. Persons killed during law enforcement activity and cases in which the victim’s gender was not recorded were excluded.

      Again, In your world, does “ALL murders” mean “ALL murders, except victims under age 15, and the others we excluded”?
      ==========

      Also from the BJS, some more current data that do not support your claims (emphasis added):

      2009:

      Males were victims of violent crime at rates slightly higher than females, indicating a continuing convergence of male and female victimization. Differences between male and female rates of simple assault were not statistically significant in 2009.

      2010:

      males (15.7 per 1,000) and females (14.2 per 1,000) had similar rates of violent victimization during 2010.

      See:

      http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf

      http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv10.pdf

      • IHateFatChicks

        Have you taken your medication yet? You’re delusional, irrational, shrill, histrionic, wrong and none too sharp. But continue, I’m enjoying the comedy of an uneducated person trying to justify their bigotry and misandry. :)

        • hennorama

          LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for yet another in your series of unresponsive responses.

          You continue to demonstrate the value of your education, by making unsupported assumptions and claims.

          Well done.

          • IHateFatChicks

            That’s ironic, coming from you. Projection is so pathetic, especially from someone with no educational background and on unemployment.

          • hennorama

            LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for yet another in your series of unresponsive responses.

            A quote from Macbeth seems most appropriate here.

            Your commentary:

            “ … it is a tale
            Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
            Signifying nothing.”

          • IHateFatChicks

            That’s ironic, coming from you.

          • hennorama

            LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for yet another in your series of unresponsive responses.

            What’s your running total now?

          • IHateFatChicks

            Honey, I’m the organ grinder and you’re the homeless, uneducated, unemployed monkey who offers nothing to support your mindless ramblings to justify your misandry, lies, lack of data and willful ignorance of facts and legitimate scientific data. I like you as a stalker, this is fun.

          • hennorama

            LoathsomeLoather — thank you for your response, which has added another to your Personal Worst.

            Again, your predilections, this time your admitted sexual predilection as “the organ grinder,” is unlikely to be of interest to anyone but you, but please feel free to prattle on.

            Still waiting for you to form any responses that address the points made, but fear not, as no one will be interrupting normal respiration waiting for you to do so.

            Thanks again, and congratulations for your new Personal Worst.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Confucius Say: There’s an excellent clip on “this american life” about a lesbian who realized she wanted to get a gender change and started taking the hormones (testosterone) and eventually started objectifying women, catching herself doing it and thinking “what is wrong with me – I’m becoming a jerk.” Having internal arguments about what polite thing she could say to a woman she was attracted to, and in the end instead of saying something civilized to start a conversation, she ended up staring at a woman’s body while a whole variety of x rated images flooded her mind. She said she had newfound compassion for men.

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/transcript

  • HonestDebate1

    I heard only the first half hour of their show. My goodness! John Donavan did a good enough job but the guest, Soraya Chemaly, was awful. On Point deserves criticism as well not just for having an awful guest but for shifting the focus of this tragedy.It really reminds me of the Trayvon Martin shows where the message was blacks are not safe on the street because of murderous racists.

    Ms. Chemaly has issues… big time. She’s a man hater. It breaks my heart to see our nation divided along so many lines.

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      People have every right to feel how they feel, including Ms Chemaly.

      But… She is a narcissist.

      • Mike

        She has to stake an extreme position in order to get writing gigs. We all know how that works.

    • OnPointComments

      I feel sorry for Soraya Chemaly’s husband. I can’t imagine what it’s like to spend years with someone who, when you go out for a nice evening stroll, responds to ‘Don’t walk so fast, it’s not a race’ with ‘You don’t know what it’s like to be raped.’ Living with a person who has that much anger must be a miserable existence.

      • HonestDebate1

        I don’t know but I assumed she must be single and if she’s married, it’s to another woman.

  • andrewgarrett

    I get it that we men don’t face what women do, and I agree. But if I feel so entitled to sex then how come I’ve stayed in a sexless marriage simply because I don’t want to leave my kids? If I thought I were entitled wouldn’t I either leave for sex or pressure my wife into sex? Or is the fact that I thought sexless-ness is not ideal evidence of my misogyny?

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      Please correct your grammar. I am not criticizing. I am asking because I want to understand.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    The woman who said, “Men are more responsible for stopping women getting raped than women are” is WRONG.

    There are many systems of martial arts that focus on leveraging size and weight and striking vital organs. Guns also ignore your size and weight.

    Plus, the mind of a predator interprets women who need to be protected as “prey”. Women MUST stand up for themselves!

    Men who are “protectors” are reinforcing the unhealthy dynamic & ARE part of the problem. The men who feel the role of “protector” can teach women to defend themselves!

    • TeraBat

      … Or men could just stop attacking women.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Are you intending to indict ALL men??? Taking something personally has nothing to do with this. Being specific does.

        “Men” don’t attack women. Male criminals attack women.

        It’s really sad your comment got so many up votes. People are so tragically ignorant.

        • hennorama

          Alchemical Reaction — your point is modestly well taken, regarding generalities and “painting with a broad brush.”

          I trust you will apply it in all circumstances, such as to these statements, with which you may be familiar:

          “I’m saying EVERYONE has internalized oppression.”

          “Every time someone on here says “Men need to stop attacking / raping women,” Men ARE being demonized.”

          “Men who are “protectors” are reinforcing the unhealthy dynamic & ARE part of the problem.”

          “Deviants will “behave” when peers are around, but as soon as no peers are present, they will “act out” possibly in violent and explosive ways, out of resentment over the peer pressure they were subjected to.”

          “Women need to toughen up and NOT be easy targets. That is the solution! That is the ONLY thing that will work.”
          ==========
          A wise person once told me:

          “When you start to generalize, stop for a second, then put the word ‘all’ in front of what you are generalizing about. Change it to an absolute. If your words still make sense, then go ahead; if not — it’s time to re-think.”

          Along those lines:

          “EVERYONE”
          “Every time … [ALL] Men … [ALL] Men …”
          “[ALL] Men …”
          “[ALL] Deviants …”
          ‘[ALL] Women …”

          Again, your point is modestly well-taken.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            The difference is my statements ARE accurate. Thanks for rebroadcasting them.

          • hennorama

            Alchemical Reaction — thank you for your response.

            They “ARE accurate” according to you.

            Generalizations are just opinions based on small amounts of info. Their weakness is demonstrated by the simple concept of turning them into absolutes.

            Remember that you were pushing back against what you perceived as absolutes about, as you wrote, “MEN???”

            It’s a matter of perspective, and not a harsh criticism.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            There is a difference between a generalization and a truth.

      • Bill98

        Gee Wally, that would be swell. And we should all just say no to drugs. I should also be able to leave my keys in the car and go shopping for a few hours. Oh, and I should be able to wear a dozen gold chains then walk through the park at midnight.

        If you really are looking for a solution, and not just pandering to those who knee-jerk agree with the latest feminist meme, then try dealing with reality. Begin with accepting that most men are not rapists themselves, nor would they tolerate men who are. They are your natural allies in this. You gain nothing by alienating them.

        • TeraBat

          Okay. I agree with you. Not all men are rapists. Most men are not rapists. Most men are kind, decent, caring folk.

          But some men are. Some men do commit rape, and they commit it so often that 1 in 6 American women will end up being their victims.

          So how do we stop that?

    • Mike

      Standing up for yourself doesn’t guarantee that you won’t get attacked. Rather, it means that you will stand up for yourself during an attack. Fortunately, the attacks aren’t nearly as frequent as the propaganda is suggesting.

    • satanaugustine

      You said: The woman who said, “Men are more responsible for stopping women getting raped than women are” is WRONG.

      You misunderstand. Since men are usually the rapists, it’s up to them to change their behavior, i.e., stop raping women.

      And your martial arts/gun violence in response to rape scenario is laughable. It’s not as though men warn “I’m going to rape you so be sure to access your gun and/or be ready to use your martial arts. Leverage and striking vital organs means nothing when the victim is 5′ tall and weighs 110 lbs and the attacker is 6’3″ tall and weighs 235 lbs. Or what about a 25 year old man attacking the 75 year old women.

      It should not be required that women carry guns, pepper spray, a taser, and/or be proficient in martial arts or any kind of self defense. Men just need to quit raping.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        I can’t claim you misunderstand, because i suspect your pea brain actually does understand and you are obfuscating the facts.

        Nevertheless I will be more specific.

        The CALLER said NON-rapist men are more responsible for stopping rape than women are. I then stated that is NOT true.

        Every human adult who is not disabled has the first intrinsic responsibility for their own safety and security. Society cannot be MORE responsible for an individual’s safety than the individual themselves.

        This is basic, elementary philosophy, folks.

        Not to mention, a law of nature.

        As to your point that “men need to quit raping”. I could not agree more!

        And, serial killers need to quit serial killing, molesters need to quit molesting, identity thieves need to quit stealing the identities of others, and morons need to stop being stupid.

        • satanaugustine

          Ah, a personal insult. A sign that your argument is so weak that you so are frustrated that you must insult. Nice!

          You state, inexplicably: “Society cannot be MORE responsible for an individual’s safety than the individual themselves.”

          This is obvious nonsense! Society has for years been more responsible for an individual’s safety than the individual. That is why we have laws, police forces, armed forces, judicial processes and why we’ve had tribes of some sort or another throughout human history. The group protects the individual. No human lives in a vacuum and being the social species that we are, we have always had to rely on others of our species for our safety. We would have long ago been extinct if not for our ability to cooperate and protect each other. You obviously don’t understand what laws of nature are. Your assertion, in addition to being false, doesn’t even approach being a law of nature (which I suggest you Google).

          And the following comments simply amplify the perception of your naivete, in spite of your pretensions of superior intelligence:

          “Rapists need to quit raping.” Anyone can become a rapist given the proper circumstances and most of those who rape are men. No one is born a rapist. There is no blood test that can determine whether someone is a rapist. A person becomes a rapist as soon as they commit rape. The same is for the most part true for all of the other criminal acts you list. One rape makes you a rapist. One identity identity theft makes you an identity thief. One act of molestation makes you a molester. 3 murders within a month make you a serial killer. It just so happens that most of the above crimes, aside perhaps identity theft, are usually committed by men.

          I suggest doing some fact checking and analyzing the “logic” of your comments before actually posting.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Bearing some responsibility for public safety and being MORE responsible for an individual’s safety than the individual themselves, are not the same.

            To place one’s life in the hands of society is truly insane. Since the only person an individual can ultimately trust is oneself.

            Your argument is a logical fallacy.

          • satanaugustine

            So are you a survivalist who never uses or would never use the police? Do you not have family and friends that help to keep you safe?

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            I do believe, ultimately, in rugged individualism for myself. But I respect the opinions of others about their own lives.

            This is not about opinion. I am attempting to state a philosophical truth.

            Phenomenological evidence PROVES one IS ultimately responsible for oneself.

            Since ultimately, nothing but one’s own experience can be relied on.

            Overcoming narcissism is an act of generosity, since one can’t be sure anything really exists, but the greatest evidence points to one’s own conscious experience.

            Following that logical progression, ethical and moral behavior would simultaneously be an act of generosity AND an act of self-respect and self-preservation, since one can’t ultimately be sure one’s own existence isn’t the ONLY existence, from a self-evident egocentric point of view.

            Meditators and saints claim to have transcended the egocentric to another level of consciousness.

            But most human beings seem to be stuck in narcissism, not even having realized they don’t really respect others.

            Even the act of altruism, goodwill and egocentric generosity is ultimately narcissistic, because one may be giving the gift to reinforce one’s self-image as a “good person” or “good friend” and getting the neuroeconomic reward of endorphins associated.

            Treat others how one would like to be treated? Or treat others how THEY would like to be treated?

      • Bill98

        Yes, it most certainly is up to “them” to stop raping women. “Them” meaning rapists, not all men, as you imply. Men who don’t hurt anyone (which would be most men) do not need to change their behavior any more than do women who do not hurt anyone (which would be most women). Blaming all men, or all whites, or any group, based on the actions of a few who happen to look like them, is the worst form of bigotry. Strive for better.

        Also, I agree that women should not need to arm themselves, in order to be safe. Neither should men. But, that is not how the world works. There are some few who will prey upon those who are weaker than themselves, much as we might all wish that it were not so. You can either accept being a victim, or protect yourself.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        YOU MISUNDERSTAND.

        Your laziness with semantic distinction is the problem. You are implying ALL men rape – NOT TRUE!
        “Men need to stop raping.” FALSE.

        “Male rapists need to stop raping.” TRUE.

    • Laude Primevera

      Of course women should be gun slinging ninjas!! Why didn’t we think of this before??

      Thanks for solving such a huge social issue @alchemicalreaction:disqus. Do another one while your at it…racism? pollution? ohhh fix the public school system!!!

      • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

        right because women NEVER rape men or boys or even girls right?
        http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/
        educate yourself fool before you open your bug trap of a mouth. while your at it check this link out as well > http://newscastmedia.com/domestic-violence.htm
        and if your still not understanding how feminism has poisoned BOTH men and women then I have 1 more link > http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/nov/29/barbara-ellen-madeleine-martin-comment

        • satanaugustine

          Your links don’t back up your assertions.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Are you developmentally disabled?

          • satanaugustine

            I assume you are asking David.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            lol. nice one.

          • IHateFatChicks

            You’re wasting your time.

        • hennorama

          David Sievers – a few points about your rant:

          1. No one has claimed that women (or girls, men or boys) “NEVER rape men or boys or even girls…,” so you seem to be writing to yourself.

          2. Are you hearing voices? Your wonderful words, “…before you open your bug trap of a mouth…” imply that you are. You might want to get that checked out, as well as the whole writing to yourself thing, above.

          DISCLAIMER: I am not a health care professional, so the preceding should not be consider medical advice.

          3. Your 2nd link is to an article with a misleading and false title: Harvard study says 70 percent of domestic violence is committed by women against men.

          A more accurate title would be Study says In The Tiny Group We Studied — Young Adults Aged 18–28 Years — 8.5 Percent Of Intimate Partner Relationships Had Occurrences of Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence Perpetrated By Women

          Here’s the actual information, from the article titled Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence:

          Results. Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

          Doing the arithmetic, we take the percent of All relationships with Violence (23.9), then Multiply by the percent with Nonreciprocal IPV (50.3), then Multiply by the percent of cases with Nonreciprocal IPV Perpetrated by women (70.7):

          .239 X .503 X .707 = 0.084993419 (rounded to 8.5 percent)

          Sources:
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/table/t2/ (Table showing “Weighted Estimates of Violence Occurrence”)

          • IHateFatChicks

            Of course you are. Your entire position is: Man = bad, woman = good. With nothing to support or substantiate your ridiculous claims and assertions.

            It’s ironic when someone living in a trailer says they’re “not a healthcare professional”.

          • hennorama

            LargeYoungPoultryHater — thank you for your response, despite its inaccuracy and its assumptive nature.

            Please demonstrate that my “entire position is: Man = bad, woman = good,” assuming that you know the meaning of the words contained in the preceding phrases, of course, and that you actually are able to do so. (Given that you are ignorant of the difference between “homicide” and “murder,” such an assumption is a rather dicey proposition, wouldn’t you agree?)

            Please also list my “ridiculous claims and assertions” that have “nothing to support or substantiate” them, again assuming you know the meaning of the preceding words, and have the ability to do so, of course.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • IHateFatChicks

            I’m enjoying having a fat, angry, bitter, unemployed, irrational, uneducated, ugly woman stalking me. It’s like having a crippled dog act tough. :)

          • hennorama

            Hater — thank you for yet another in your series of unresponsive responses. You may be setting a forum record, for a Personal Worst.

            One seriously doubts that your predilection for “having a fat, angry, bitter, unemployed, irrational, uneducated, ugly woman stalking” you is of interest to anyone but you, but please feel free to prattle on.

            Thanks again for your unresponsive response.

          • IHateFatChicks

            Again, that’s ironic coming from a lowlife like you who’s accomplished nothing. Good to know.

          • hennorama

            Hater — thank you for your unresponsive response.

            Your post is simply an assumptive ad hominem/feminam attack, as are a large proportion of your posts in this forum.

            Sorry that you are unable to form a response that is On Point, so to speak. You continue to demonstrate the “value” of your education, and the values and ethics to which you personally adhere.

            Well done.

          • Laude Primevera

            @hennorama Unfortunately you are involved in a dialogue with crazy people.

            Hey, at least you’re keeping them busy in front of a computer screen, instead of out in public where they run the risk of coming into contact with people. Thank goodness for small favors.

            @IHateFatChicks:disqus I’m talking about you, now. Some people are just awful people, they have terrible ideas, they aren’t in touch with reality. They lash out like children. These people CANNOT BE REASONED WITH!

            This horrible tragedy in California flipped over a rock on some dank part of the internet where a marginalized subset of creeps dwell. They will slither back under that rock soon enough, I say the sooner the better!

          • hennorama

            Laude Primavera — thank you for your response.

            I agree with the spirit of your response, but would instead describe the HaterOfLargeYoungPoultry as “challenged,” and a self-described hater with rather curious predilections.

            I hadn’t considered the inherent value of what you described as “small favors;” thanks for pointing that out.

            As to my extended engagement with the LoathsomeLoather — another Shakespearean quote might well describe my intent:

            “…at the length truth will out.”

            Thanks again for your response, and for your favor.

          • jefe68

            OK, I’m not sure what’s going on here but I think the BUR moderator needs to be contacted. This chap is starting to cross some lines.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — TYFYR.

            Feel free to take any actions you wish, but don’t do so on my account.

            The Hater has been reduced to prattling on about his (presumptively) predilections, and to ad hominem/feminam attacks, which are entertaining but ignorant, assumptive, nonfactual, silly, and most telling, cowardly.

            Thanks again for your response, and your implicit support.

          • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

            right I guess you don’t pay any attention to tv or the media or read the law regarding the issue of rape and how its defined. today do you? go watch LAW & ORDER SVU theirs an episode in there that clearly says a woman CAN’T rape a man. also your shaming language by insinuation that I’m not all there only proves my point. Your kind will try all you can to undermine the legitimacy of the issues that boys/men face in the feminazi world, untill your group realizes we can’t be ignored anymore, then your group will try to have us labeled as terrorists as your kind has started a petition online at change.org. and then when you see that we cannot be silenced or stopped your group will seek a truce only to realize that we will NOT accept the half ass surrender and will go untill their is an unconditional surrender.

          • hennorama

            David Sievers – thank you for your response.

            Sir:

            You have mistaken my expressions of concern for your personal well-being for “shaming language by insinuation.”

            You have also mistaken me as a member of “your group” and “your kind”(whatever you imagine those terms to mean). I neither represent nor am a member of any group that might meet your imagined criteria, whatever they may be.

            Again, as an expression of concern for your personal well-being, you may want to get your imaginings and baseless assumptions checked out.

            Thank you for your command to watch some mass entertainment episode. Please accept my polite declination.

            Thank you everso for your response.

          • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

            OH and in regards to the article it seem strangely suspicious that EVERY time some new info comes into the light regarding women/ men from domestic violence, false rape claims, reproductive right, genital mutilation of boys/girls, or murder of men at the hands of women that info is removed because its “misogynistic”. funny that article came from one of the MOST respected universities in the USA maybe the world and instead of trying to disprove the info in i you just say its wrong and associate your self with a group that lies and censers anything that doesn’t support its hate movement.

          • hennorama

            David Sievers – thank you for your response.

            Your comments are in disagreement with reality.

            You claimed “…EVERY time some new info comes into the light regarding women/ men from domestic violence, false rape claims, reproductive right, genital mutilation of boys/girls, or murder of men at the hands of women that info is removed…”

            Reality: the study is available online, as the link in my post indicated. See:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/ (Hint: you to click on the link to confirm reality.)

            You claimed: “…instead of trying to disprove the info in i you just say its wrong…”

            Reality: I refuted and disproved the misleading and false title of the piece you linked to: Harvard study says 70 percent of domestic violence is committed by women against men

            1. The study was only of a small group, Young Adults Aged 18–28 Years

            2. I quoted the results of the study verbatim, and used data from the results to show the actual, very small percentage of Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence Perpetrated By Women. It was 8.5 percent, not 70 percent.

            Again, you may wish to reconsider your comments, as they are in disagreement with reality. As you seem unreceptive to expressions of concern for your well-being, I shall refrain from such expressions.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

            Oh whats that you say NO one says women can’t rape men/boys? really go watch law and order SVU. theirs an episode in their that clearly says other wise and feel free to ask the people around you how they define rape and ask by that definition alone can a women rape a man? hey while your there explain why women have VAWA but men have NOTHING like that for them? or explain why Men are REQUIRED BY LAW to register for the draft but women aren’t. or explain why when BOTH a man and women create the #yesallwomen its misogynistic, but when feminist create the #killallmenm its ok? feel free why ONLY under the law by definition men can rape, but made to penetrate dose NOT exist? this feminist crap has been around for how long and the group that claims to be all about equality and or women’s issues has ONLY demonized, villianized, victimized, and emasculated men systematically made men as NOTHING but disposable utilities, emotional tampons, and beta providers all the while NOT removing the special privileges that women receive in disasters. For all that talk from “strong” women saying they don’t need a man or his money feel free to also explain why Alomomy exists or why men whom cannot afford to pay child support for a kid they can be railroaded in to having end up in jail. oh or why FEMALE pedophiles get a pass or at worst a slap on the wrist by comparison to what male pedo’s get?

        • IHateFatChicks

          You’re wasting your time.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Why should men BE expected to be gun-slinging ninjas and women NOT be???

        You are an idiot.

  • ranndino

    The way this story is being covered by the overwhelming majority of the media, including this show (that I’m normally a huge fan of), is precisely the problem. Blaming men and boys for everything that’s terrible in the world, even when they’re nice, intelligent guys who are dreaming of having a girlfriend they could shower with love and attention, is what breeds such hatred and animosity in young men.

    I very much understand the violence issues many women face, but to lump good, intelligent, nice guys with animals who commit those violent acts is a horrendous disservice to society. Perhaps if many of today’s young women weren’t such militant feminists and treated men who politely approach them with a modicum of respect there would be a lot less of this so called “misogyny” going around.

    Young boys and men are being constantly vilified for being who they are while girls are aggrandized for the same. While women are told to embrace their sexuality and use it as girl power men are being called animals for simply having the natural desire for sex and companionship from the opposite gender.

    On top of that our anti-natural laws based on religious morality also don’t allow for any outlet for all that pent up sexual energy in young men who have not learned the art of seducing women. They’re told to simply shut up and deal with overwhelming feelings of loneliness. That’s like telling someone who is hungry to just suck it up and forget about eating.

    This is not a reasonable stance and is perpetuated by militant feminists who have pretty much achieved their goal of destroying any semblance of normal relationships.

    What Rodger did was terrible and I’m in no way defending his actions, but the fact is that many men can relate to how he was feeling. To cover this issue in such a one sided way and once again blame men for everything is extremely unfair and shortsighted.

    It’s far more complicated than that and yes, women do shoulder a certain degree of blame for it (not for his actions, but how many decent men are made to feel in today’s society). I know I’m gonna be attacked like any man who dares to stand up to radical feminism, but for those women that don’t even try to understand the other side think of how it feels to be rejected by a man you desire, a job you really want. Now imagine that happening over and over again.

    • satanaugustine

      This ” While women are told to embrace their sexuality and use it as girl power men are being called animals for simply having the natural desire for sex and companionship from the opposite gender.” is 100%, unadulterated nonsense. This is 180 degrees away from reality.

      And who/what are militant feminists and why would they want to “destroy[ ] any semblance of normal relationships”? You are just making stuff up or listening to/reading men who are phenomenally ignorant about feminism, misogyny, and gender relationships.

      “Blaming men and boys for everything that’s terrible in the world…” No one even said that. That’s you projecting.

      Your comment is just one long blame the victim tirade. BTW, keep in mind that Rodger believed he was one of those “nice, intelligent guys…dreaming of having a girlfriend they could shower with love and attention.” That’s what’s scary – he was just another guy who believed he possessed highly desirable traits and when he didn’t get what he believed he was owed, his unrealistic, hyper-romantic view he had of women turned quickly into hatred and violence. Also keep in mind that he never even tried. He never even approached a woman.

      There are far too many men who think that they’re good, nice, intelligent guys who believe that women owe them something. Some are more realistic, though, and understand that they have to put some effort forward if they expect to get what they want and who don’t respond with violence or blaming women or “militant feminists” for getting in their way. Yes, there are men intelligent enough to not create straw women and straw feminists to blame for everything.

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Every time someone on here says “Men need to stop attacking / raping women,” Men ARE being blamed for everything terrible in the world.

        If women want respect from men, should they not extend the very same respect they want?

        Since NOT Men but Male & Female Offenders, Criminals & Rapists attack / rape BOTH sexes,

        Not recognizing there ARE male allies only serves to discredit the entire campaign by claiming “Men are raping women”.

        Be specific or be discredited.

        • satanaugustine

          Read my below response to you. You have only pretensions of being able to discredit someone’s argument. The problem is that you have to make a more credible argument in response.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            I don’t exist to educate you. I agree narcissism and entitlement are massive problems on earth, and that Rodger was delusional. Even agree there are many young men who are so confused they believe women owe them something.

            It is nauseating.

            However, it is important to be specific in one’s indictments, for the sake of one’s own credibility.

            And there is a strategy among the feminist movement to say, “Men this”, “Men that”. Instead of saying, “Male offenders”, “Male rapists”, “Male criminals”.

            All this does is serve to further escalate the gender “war” by BLAMING men.

          • satanaugustine

            “I don’t exist to educate you.” Meaning, you have no evidence for your claim and thus it can be dismissed out of hand.

            I agree that men should not be demonized, but our tendencies towards all sorts of violence – sexual, domestic, bar fights, murder, war – should be kept in mind. I don’t think we’re a horrible gender. What gets my goat is when guys portray women, including feminists as castrating, men-hating, sex-hating sticks in the mud. And there are all kinds of feminists – anti-men feminists, prudish anti-sex feminists; The feminists I like are the sex-positive equality feminists, even though I don’t agree with what each and every one of them say. I say there is one problem with feminism – and i realize this is vague – there are too many bad ones that make the others look bad because the both use the term feminist.

      • ranndino

        You have pretty much completely misinterpreted my entire post. It wasn’t any “blame the victim” tirade. I was simply pointing out that wholesale blaming of men is what further alienates them. Reading comprehension is your friend.

        I’m not projecting anything. Did you listen to this specific show? Do you listen to what is said about men by women in all mainstream media outlets? This isn’t a fantasy. This is reality. Men are constantly put down for being men and also men who fit the description of quintessential “nice guys” are lumped together with truly misogynist idiots who act towards everyone, including women, like they’ve just climbed off a tree.

        What makes it all worse is that men who are shy and beyond respectful of women get ignored while young women go after exactly the type of men they say publicly they despise. I was simply pointing out that the issue should be covered from both sides so how was this a “blame the victim” rant?

        I think that to dismiss everything Rodger was feeling as crazy does a great disservice to this whole issue because there are many, many men among the totally non-violent kind who have similar feelings of constant rejection resulting in low self esteem and being miserable. These men don’t think women owe them something. They simply want love and attention from the opposite sex. Somehow even that completely normal desire gets attacked in a very negative way as some sort of entitlement complex.

        As far as militant feminists go I don’t know what world you live in, but at least in America they’re all around us so it’s not me that is full of nonsense that is 180% opposite of reality. I constantly hear men being put down and god forbid anyone comes out with any defense, no matter how polite and well reasoned, he’s immediately labeled a chauvinist pig. In fact, even when a woman questions some of the dogmas of modern, militant feminism she gets viciously attacked.

        What I said about destroyed relationships is true as well. I don’t know how old you are, but there are almost no normal relationships these days among young people. The gender roles have gotten so confused and mixed up that no one knows how to keep it together because the expectations are all over the place. The only guys I know who are in really long term relationships are the type who have to ask their woman when to breathe. They even do a pretty good job pretending that they’re happily married… until you get them to open up one on one over a few beers and it turns out that they’re completely miserable because they can’t even remember the things they enjoyed doing before they met the woman they’re with.

        Things are rather different in other countries. Much better for men and much worse for women, but we’re talking about America for now.

        To finish up my main point was that out of the 3 guests and the host on the show not one represented the side of men in all of this and objectively looked into some of the reasons they might be feeling the way they do. Even the title of the show starts with the word “misogyny”.

        As far as good and bad feminists the one on the show was at least self aware when she said, “I’m a professional feminist. All it takes me to get angry is to walk into a room”. Sorry, but those are the only kind I’ve come across.

    • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

      “Blaming men and boys for everything that’s terrible in the world, even when they’re nice, intelligent guys who are dreaming of having a girlfriend they could shower with love and attention, is what breeds such hatred and animosity in young men.”

      You are unintentionally implying that when men aren’t nice, intelligent guys who are dreaming of having a girlfriend they could shower with love and attention, they deserve to be blamed for “everything that’s terrible in the world”.

      They don’t.

  • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

    right just be the easily predictable feminazis and ignore the facts and the male victims in this horrible event like you did with the killed boys by the group that kidnapped those girls all the while explaining away the fact that one of your own made sure that group wasn’t labeled a terrorist group.

    • satanaugustine

      And here everyone was saying that Elliot Rodger had no friends when you were there are along.
      Anyone who uses the term feminazis identifies themselves as an ignorant misogynist. MRA?

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        I would NEVER hurt, violate, threaten, attack or in any way disrespect women.

        Having said that, Misandry is EVERY BIT as prevalent as Misogyny. And to say otherwise only fuels misogyny.

        • satanaugustine

          I’m glad you would never do any of those things, but how does one determine whether another is a feminazi? Especially since it’s an invented word by that know-nothing blob of hate known as Rush Limbaugh.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            I chose not to use the word.

      • http://facebook.com/DCroyalknights David Sievers

        Oh really your going to make an ass outta of yourself by telling the world who and what I am now eh? do tell me when’s the last time you worked in a domestic violence shelter for women? do tell me when’s the last time you donated money to women’s education, or even went to court to support a battered woman? I have been donating money EVERY month since I’ve been in the Army (4 1/2 yrs) I spent my teen years helping women in homeless shelters rebuild. do tell me feminazi when the last time you worked with a man or boy whom was raped by a woman? do tell ALL of us when the last time you helped a homeless man find a job? your nothing but an ignorant hypocrite.

    • northeaster17

      Feminazi? What the hell are you talking about?

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    Misandry is EVERY BIT as prevalent as Misogyny. And to say otherwise only fuels misogyny.

    • satanaugustine

      I say otherwise. You are making an extraordinary claim. Where is your extraordinary evidence to back up your claim?

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        Actually, claiming I have made an extraordinary claim IS an extraordinary claim.

        Where is your evidence to back up your extraordinary claim???

        • satanaugustine

          No no. This doesn’t work. It’s an informal logical fallacy known as shifting the burden of proof. Stating that misogyny is more common than misandry is no more controversial than stating that sexual dimorphism in humans leads to males generally being larger and stronger than females.

          The burden of proof still rests with you.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Antimisandry.com
            Traffic Rank: 478,815 (38,815 below feministing)
            US Traffic Rank: 272,783 (259,800 below)
            Links in: 184 (over 2,300 less potential traffic links)
            Listed under ‘unlisted’ (i.e. women’s issues are listed while men’s issues are not)

            “Exactly, misogyny (aside from the exaggerated definitions as to what constitutes it) only exists in a secluded and ineffective social manifestation – which is universally frowned upon and punished accordingly (compared to misandry which has developed into a much celebrated grotesque art form). The prevalence of misandry is comfortably embedded within politics, law, media and (especially) academia, contrastingly misogyny has no influential footholds which can directly impede on women’s rights (privilege?) in any meaningful way whatsoever.
            It’s comparing the minuteness of genuine misogyny which is primarily restricted to futile personal expression vs state sponsored misandry which seeks to punish and micromanage every aspect of men’s lives.”

          • Mike

            Alchemical Reaction, you have been all over this discussion (lots of free time, eh?) making the same vacuous claims. You lack an ability to step back and analyze this issue in a critical, objective manner — you just parrot the radical feminist view, which as been distorted by the mainstream media into being the mainstream view. Some of us are able to think independently about this issue, and, therefore, see it clearly — see how distorted and destructive the feminist perspective has become.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            The fact you think I’m a feminist only shows you haven’t read the vast majority of my comments. And are instead making assumptions.

            You are making yourself look like a total idiot.

          • Mike

            El-wrongo.

          • Mike

            Tell me, are you just hovering over this page looking for new comments to respond to? It’s 6:25 AM Eastern, and you’re responding immediately to my comment again. I have to run out, so I’ll have to see your insta-reply later.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Yes.

          • Bill98

            I can’t help but notice that you have criticized AR for monitoring this page and responding to comments…even as you monitor this page and respond to comments!

          • Mike

            She is all over the page, and I looked at her time stamp, and was up on it in the early hours of the morning. Like, 3:00 and 4:00 am. I checked her reply to me while I was drinking coffee. That’s it. If you quantified her comments the number would be huge.

          • Mike

            Just scroll down and it’s like she has been involved in every conversation.

          • Mike

            I’m on right now checking to see if she replied to me, but I’m not going to be engaging in any other conversations on this page.

          • Mike

            I noticed that an Amanda also was commenting an unbelievable amount. Iwould guess Amanda had over 100 comments — easily. So it makes me wonder what the deal is.

          • Mike

            And, actually, the reason I noticed yesterday was that I had made about 2 original, new comments, and I returned to the page a number of times to see if anyone had replied to me, and each time I returned, I would have to scroll and scroll down to my comments, and as I endlessly scrolled I would see both of their names over and over and over again.

          • Bill98

            Mike, that was not intended as an attack. More of a humorous observation. A topic like this tends to get us all a bit worked up. It’s worthwhile to pause and take a deep breath once in awhile. And, yes, that applies to me as much as to anyone…

          • jefe68

            And you’re up to 73, guess you chaps are in a race.

          • Mike

            Actually, Ms. Chief, I have about 35 on this discussion on misoginy. The 73 (now 76) is for all of my Disqus discussions. And many of my comments on this misogyny are like this one — repeated comments on the same thread. She is in, like, 75% of the separate conversations. So 1/3 of my comments have been just in this little thread. Big difference.

          • jefe68

            Interesting that.

          • IHateFatChicks

            So, you’re uneducated, unemployed and living in your parents basement. Good to know.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            What the hell are you mumbling about???

          • IHateFatChicks

            I was commenting on wrong post. You are correct.

          • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

            Fair enough, sir.

          • jefe68

            Umm, Mike, so have you. Lots of free time?

          • IHateFatChicks

            Actually, no it doesn’t. You’re ridiculous.

    • whoo123

      From Michael Kimmel’s book on the subject:

      The slightest deviation from male and white centeredness is perceived as a profound loss of privilege. This is why with each tiny step that women and minorities take toward equality, the outcry of white and male supremacists about how “oppressed” white men are has been getting louder.

      The conservative backlash is in overdrive to protect their illegitimate, unethical, hierarchal system of privilege. Many White heterosexual men feel “oppressed” and rave about the mythic “misandry.”

      • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

        The problem with Kimmel’s book is, by making outrageous assertions, he has missed the opportunity to make accurate ones.

        I’m not saying there isn’t a patriarchy or even that “the patriarchy isn’t afraid of losing its status.”

        I’m saying EVERYONE has internalized oppression. I’m saying misandry extends well beyond race and class.

        The argument, “None of THAT oppression can be true because it comes from men” is RIDICULOUS.

        Until each person “begins within” and starts seeing themselves and everyone else as an individual first and a member of a group second, these debates will never end…

  • Guest

    It’s inspiring to see and know that a majority of Americans are now pro-life.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/154838/pro-choice-americans-record-low.aspx

  • jefe68

    Watch out, he will start to call into question your CV and bank account. Then go on to demean you any way he sees fit. Kind of like dealing with a immature adolescent boy. Hence the moniker.

  • Bill O’Brien

    do women care more about the interests of women generally, than men care about the interests of men generally? If so, why?

    • IHateFatChicks

      Yes. Obviously.

    • whoo123

      I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. Given that most women are socialized to be caregivers in one form or another, would the education of their children or food safety be ‘women’s interests’ in the context of your question?

    • Kate Hutchinson

      Yes, because women’s interests are so poorly represented in spheres of influence. I care far more about adding more women in leadership roles, particularly elected office, making sure women aren’t jailed for defending themselves against sexual assault (hello Cecily McMillan), and doing away with dress codes and social norms that tell women that it’s their fault that men can’t control themselves sexually and must repress themselves or face public shaming or worse. I’m sure men don’t think about their interests as men (aside from MRAs) because men are the default in our society. Men don’t have to ask, “Will people call me a bitch if I push hard for this solution?” at work. Men don’t have to think about whether other men are ogling them as they walk down the street. Men don’t have to worry about their gender holding them back if they run for office. They already have the power, and cement it by passing legislation that makes it harder for women to gain equity on any number of issues.

      One remark I have heard over and over again in this debate is “Why don’t women just lean on the men who are helpful and accept that other men are never going to change and they will have to be careful?” Seriously? Why should I live my life under the shadow of men and just accept it? I care about my interests and the interests of women, very, very much. Because if I don’t, no one else will.

      • hennorama

        Kate Hutchinson — hear, hear! Well done.

      • HonestDebate1

        “Why don’t women just lean on the men who are helpful and accept that other men are never going to change and they will have to be careful?”

        I sure hope you are not a supporter if Hillary Clinton.

        • Kate Hutchinson

          And may I present Exhibit A in the case for societal misogyny. Here, a person is citing Hillary Clinton as a person who has achieved great things for herself and for women globally, and is one of the foremost people in American politics, and that none of this could have been achieved without the help of men.

          Thank you for proving my point.

          • HonestDebate1

            I am citing Hillary Clinton as a woman who is a volunteer doormat and endured untold humiliation by standing by a man who is a serial abuser of women. I don”t presume to know what could have happened but what did happen is she was an unremarkable Senator and a complete failure at State. No one, including her when asked, has been able to cite a success as Secretary of State. She rose to prominence on Bill’s coattails.

            I have tremendous respect for women who are tremendously accomplished and did it on their own. Condi Rice and Sarah Palin needed a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Do you applaud them? If not, does that make you a misogynist?

          • Mike

            Hillary obviously benefitted from Bill’s success. But that does not mean that she was not qualified or capable of doing what she did. John Kennedy got to where he did because his Dad provided a trust fund that allowed him to not have to work for a living, and because his Dad himself had been involved in politics and had connections. But just because John had help that doesn’t mean he wasn’t qualified, or couldn’t have done it on his own. The problem with Hillary, in my opinion, is that she is just like every other politician these days — she’s a working for the corporations, and will sell the people down the river to benefit the corporations.

          • HonestDebate1

            That may be true even although I would argue Kennedy’s competence (another day). I’m not bashing him, he did some good things but it’s complex and irrelevant at this point. I am just citing what happened. When Hillary got her chance she failed… time and time again. In addition to her incompetency, I also think a very good case can be made she is nasty and vengeful (Billy Dale), a liar (Rose law firm billing records ) and corrupt (Whitewater, cattle futures, etc.).

            What has she done that qualifies her to be President?

          • Mike

            I see your point, but I’m really not knowledgeable enough about her tenure as Sec. State to judge whether she was effective. I just don’t know enough to feel confident making a big picture assessment of her. I agree completely with you about her being nasty, lying, and corrupt. But also keep in mind, what we might view as “failure” can really be a “success” if she’s really working for the corporations, or, has an agenda that is hidden. I’m thinking here about Benghazi. You might view that as a failing. BUT, if the goal was to get Stevens out of the way so that the Al Qaeda operatives in the area could steal the weapons out of the warehouse behind the embassy, then mission accomplished. If the goal was to simply create new tensions and chaos in the Middle East, then we’ve done a damn good job at that.

          • hennorama

            Kate Hutchinson — best of luck engaging with Debates?NotHe.

            He not only is an Omniscient One, he is also Sir Nobler Than Thou (self-proclaimed).

          • HonestDebate1

            Quit lying. I have never said I’m nobler than anyone. Where do you get this stuff? And aren’t you embarrassed by your chicken little tactics?

          • jefe68

            Oh please. You entire act is self righteous nonsense.

        • pennyroyal

          do you know arrogant you sound like. Kate and all women have the right to vote for the best candidate, as they determine him or her to be. You don’t have the right to question another person about their voting choices!! Who do you think you are???

          • HonestDebate1

            Of course they have the right to vote for whomever they choose. I’d fight to the death to defend that right. And I do have the right to question anything I want.

          • jefe68

            You have no idea. What you have here is one entitled white man.

          • HonestDebate1

            Entitled? You don’t know my life. Have you ever been homeless? And what’s with the race-baiting?

      • Mike

        Kate, think back to the ’08 election. I remember how absurd it was that the two people who were frontrunners were Obama and Hillary. And this was based upon polls of voters. So we were clearly hearing from the voting public who were planning on voting Dem that the people they would prefer as President were a mixed race guy, and a woman. During the same news casts where the news media was reporting these polls, they would then run stories that basically asserted that the country was not ready for a black or a female President. And then I’d talk to friends about the election, and they would all parrot that — they’d all say, as though it were a personal view — that they didn’t think the country was ready for either a black or female president. Yet the very poll numbers that were the catalyst for them to make the comment were telling us the complete opposite — that they clearly WERE ready. Do you see my point? Women no longer have it the way it was in the ’70s, yet women are still continuously being told that they are horribly oppressed and treated badly. And they aren’t looking at the reality that they are living.

      • Bill O’Brien

        that makes sense. women care more about women generally than men do about men generally because women face more injustice.

        i wonder if there is also an evolutionary explanation why, at least in small groups (clans, villages), women care more about the safety of other women more than men do…

  • homebuilding

    Completely missing from the discussion is that women and girls of every era and every location come to understand that a huge percentage of boys and men are larger, stronger, and faster, etc. thus have an edge (say it’s big or little, I don’t really care) in the physical world, be that in sport or in the context of an immediate physical threat.

    Somewhere, very early, and nearly universally, this gives a lot of females a dominant fear response whilst the males often take on a “I can conquer the world” approach.

    Only the very best parenting (and I do mean both a mom and dad, working together) can help children to pull these poles of fear and arrogance toward a more realistic middle.

    Simply, the crazy ones who make the news and go to prison have had very poor parenting, almost universally…..be that through indulgence or neglect.

    And our social models, as portrayed from politics to religion to entertainment are beyond poor, inadequate and misguided–basically, they often represent very poor models of anything that will pass for even-handed in a fair minded society.

    • slayerhippy

      It seems to me that your assertion and conclusion based on dimorphism assumes that males are not picked on by larger males, since if they were, most would not develop the “‘I can take on the world’ approach.” In my experience, there is plenty of bullying/mistreatment/pick-your-phrase going around on the playground between the boys.

      • Shug

        Right, people of all gender experience bullying…but that is not what we are talking about here. Derailing, 15 yards and loss of down.

        • slayerhippy

          Shug, I was addressing specific points in homebuildings post. Read the first two paragraphs. The numbers can’t add up to “a lot of females a dominant fear response whilst the males often take on a “I can conquer the world” approach.” The number of males who spend their formative years as the largest and “have an edge…in the context of an immediate physical threat” must necessarily be less than 50%.

          • pennyroyal

            pearls before swine, I guess slayerhippy

  • AliceOtter33

    Since the word “misogyny” is just too much for misogynists to handle in this discussion, let’s talk about impotence, let’s talk about humiliation, let’s talk about anger.

    Then let’s talk about what happens when that anger is afforded the privilege to do what it will.

    Violence is rooted in anger. And misogynist violence is rooted in righteous anger.

    Laura L. Hayes wrote a recent article for Slate that really nails it:

    “How to Stop Violence: Mentally Ill People Aren’t Killers. Angry People Are”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/04/anger_causes_violence_treat_it_rather_than_mental_illness_to_stop_mass_murder.html

    • brettearle

      So, you think Mental illness couldn’t possibly explain this?

      What if–for the sake of argument–we found a panel of Forensic Psychiatrists who all agreed that Rodger was severely disturbed?

      Would you not say, then, that Rodger’s deranged mind used his hatred of women to kill men and women?

      Or would you still go on to advance your Radical Feminist agenda?

      • pennyroyal

        stop being such a hater and a bully!! Humiliating and labeling ‘guest’ does not further the discussion.

        • brettearle

          I have no idea what you are talking about.

          What you are saying is utterly untrue.

    • OnPointComments

      In the specific incident that is the subject of this On Point program, it was mental illness that caused the violence.

      Elliot Rodger was in therapy for 14 years, beginning at age 8 and continuing with multiple therapists at times and daily sessions during high school. He was prescribed Rispiridone, an anti-psychotic drug used for treating schizophrenia, which he quit taking. Elliot Rodger was mentally ill.

      • brettearle

        I agree.

        See my comment below and other places.

        However, while most Misogynists do not kill, we will need to say, I think, that Rodger was a Misogynist who used that Hatred to feed his deranged mind.

      • Mike

        Bravo. Sanity. Logic. Reason. Thanks, it’s quite a relief.

      • pennyroyal

        AND he was aided and abetted by a toxic male culture. You guys who are talking now don’t seem to realize how toxic the culture has become for women.

        • OnPointComments

          When will you be accepting your Nobel Prize in Medicine, pennyroyal? I assume you’re getting one since you’ve discovered the cause of schizophrenia.

          • pennyroyal

            have these people on the show…

            do you know that people with schizophrenia in India after about 10 years are coping quite well, far better than many in the US. Tell me then, does cultural difference make some difference.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_in_America

        • brettearle

          It Is Toxic For Everyone.

          IS the point.

          • pennyroyal

            I agree with that and accept it. I’m usually more of a small ‘u’ universalist.

    • IHateFatChicks

      You’re ridiculous with nothing substantive to offer.

      • Shug

        Says the guy with the IHateFatChicks handle. Hahahaha.

        • jefe68

          He’s a pill, that’s for sure.

      • pennyroyal

        these guys are showing that they TOO are bullies…

    • brettearle

      Maybe I’m way off base, but last time I looked at any non-fiction information/literature, regarding the roots of Mental Illness, the impulse/emotion of anger was Right Up There with a core manifestation of several different forms of Mental Illness.

      For Ms. Hayes, or you, or anyone else to presume otherwise may very well fly in the face of long-term Clinical Data

    • Mike

      She’s wrong. Some killers are angry. Some are mentally ill. Some likely are a combination of the two. And for some, the catalyst is something else. Slate is mainstream, so like all rag journalism they tend to reduce things to such simple black-and-white extremes in order to stir controversy. Smart people find that hard to stomach.

      • pennyroyal

        closed minded

        • Mike

          Inarticulate.

          • pennyroyal

            succinct

          • Mike

            Explain the how. If you can’t provide an analytical explanation of your point, you’re saying nothing. It’s boring. People here want depth of discussion.

  • daboys1215 .

    Until men STOP putting women and sex on a pedestal this kind of frustration will keep manifesting itself in this way. Sex is not the be all and end all of everything. Women do NOT validate you as a person. Once men get this though their thick skull they will realize how little power women actually have over you. You don’t need their “validation”.

    • Mike

      I think he just wanted to have a relationship with a woman. Pretty fundamental human need.

      • pennyroyal

        No, read the manifesto. He wanted to score. He wanted a conquest. He wanted to see himself as a man like other men. He felt inadequate. And when baby-men (immature men) get angry over feeling inadequate, then women get targeted.
        The other issue is he wanted to please his father. That made him feel humiliated that his father had little time for him. Why don’t we talk about that??

        • jefe68

          Baby-men, seeing a lot of this in the comments.

      • daboys1215 .

        A relationship isn’t a “need”. It’s a want. Based on what he wrote and said in his video, I’m not sure he knew what a relationship actually was anyway.

        • Mike

          I think you’ve absorbed the modern feminist propaganda that has been trying to convince women that it’s a weakness to want to be with a man. It is a basic human need to be with someone of the opposite sex. Lack of health can be a consequence of not having someone. Consider the person who is the subject of this conversation. I remember in the late ’90s seeing Gloria Steinem on The Today Show (my ex insisted that we have a TV, and she used to watch that show) telling women that they didn’t NEED a man — that they could do something far more fulfilling, such as take a cooking class, or learn to play the violin. Pretty distorted.

          • daboys1215 .

            I rarely agree with feminists on anything. On this though, they are right. You don’t NEED a relationship to be happy. You are either happy or your not. Someone else isn’t going to do that for you. If you want to place your happiness on the shoulders of someone else, good luck.

          • Mike

            Sure, you’re right, some people are loners and don’t need human contact. But the vast majority are designed at the deepest level to crave the companionship of the other sex. There is nothing wrong with that — it is not a weakness. It’s normal. And I’m saying that as a guy who doesn’t currently have one. I wish I did, and I don’t see it as some kind of weakness. It’s wholly human.

  • Kate Hutchinson

    I missed this last night and listened to the recording this morning. I was really disappointed in this show. I listen to On Point often, and I do count the number of women who are featured as guests, but I find it really astounding that you could only find one woman guest, and that John Donvan continually asked her to explain herself in ways that he didn’t ask the male guests to. He sounded completely patronizing, and that is part of why this is a problem. Next time, get Jessica Valenti, who is not only a great speaker for women’s issues and gender equity, but is even local to Boston.

    • brettearle

      Shall we gather then–perhaps presumptuously–that your belief–like many Radical Feminists, who have contributed on this Thread–is that the murderous violence is more the direct result of Misogyny than severe Mental Illness?

      __________

      And, incidentally, I’d be hard pressed to believe that many–who faithfully listen to the show–didn’t find John Donvan’s work to be stellar, courteous, upfront, clear, direct and competent.

      Even though, many believe, as I do, that Tom Ashbrook’s work is unparalleled, John Donvan has been a recognized and honored journalist, for years–with, especially, quite an affable manner.

      • Kate Hutchinson

        I’m not sure what you’re characterizing as radical here. Is it asking for more women to be guests on a show dealing with misogyny?

        As for cause of this rampage, ER himself said he was going to kill women, to take revenge for how they had ignored him. In the absence of a mental health professional appearing to tell me he was mentally ill, I can’t make a judgment about that. I can certainly judge his paper trail. This is a man who uncategorically blamed women wholesale for his virginity. This is a man who equated women with their sexual parts and nothing more, who treated them as accessories to a lifestyle he aspired to. He found a large community of men who also had these views, and continue to espouse these views. I invite you to actually speak to some women, and ask them about their experiences with men who treat them as nothing more than an ambulatory reproductive organs in a pretty wrapper.

        Since you have chosen to categorize me as a radical feminist, I will suggest that you are probably unconsciously contributing to the problem of systemic societal misogyny, by attempting to denigrate women who are speaking out against mistreatment. If you were part of an ethnic group that was being harassed in large public forums, and some other people who were also members of your ethnic group were shot in a rampage, with a gunman who explicitly stated he was seeking to kill victims of this ethnic group, you would most likely call that a hate crime. And yet, when women are killed, when women are threatened, when an entire culture of hatred against women is presented to you, you can only blame mental illness, or rather, to absolve the perpetrator of conscious action.

        • Mike

          Yeah, one man, not the totality of the male gender. Ask the guy’s parents whether they were concerned that he was a misogynist, or, whether they were concerned that he was mentally ill. Oh yeah, and half the dead are men.

          • brettearle

            Mike….

            See below….

          • Kate Hutchinson

            One man went crazy and killed people on a particular day. Plenty of men treat women as a commodity or portable womb every single day.

            Why did he kill the men? Because, as he clearly stated, they were standing in the way of him having sex with women.

            What I see here is that many men are uncomfortable recognizing that misogyny is a norm in our society, and prefer to downplay it by claiming the only cause of this tragedy was ER’s mental illness. If people were really concerned about his misogyny, why was there no outcry over the months and years that he was writing, posting, and videoing his beliefs that women are just vaginas and he’s upset that he doesn’t have access to their bodies?

          • Mike

            No, Kate, we aren’t uncomfortable. The reason we reject this boloney is that we are all sons, brothers, dads, and husbands. We don’t hate women. We take care of our mothers, we protect our sisters, we love our wives, and we want the best for our daughters. You seem to be residing in some abstract world, detached from this reality. You aren’t seeing what we are seeing and living, so you’ve constructed some fantasy monster, which has nothing to do with the flesh and blood men out there.

          • brettearle

            Thank you

          • pennyroyal

            two guys ganging up on one woman. How un-gentlemanly.

          • brettearle

            That comment is a pathetic excuse for having NO answer to our VERY rational arguments.

            How very, very ungainly.

          • jefe68

            These men have shown that they are nothing short of being boys. Little scared boys. Not cads as you have intimated.

          • pennyroyal

            I stand corrected.

          • brettearle

            I don’t agree, Jef.

            Rodger was a Misogynist for sure. And a jerk.

            But Rodger was an extremely sick individual–whose psychosis drove him over the violent edge.

            And I do NOT know why you don’t see that.

            Most Misogynists don’t kill and you know it.

            That’s why this story is much more about Mental illness than the hatred of women.

            And, incidentally, I have happily been with, and lived with, the same woman, for a couple of decades, who is an avowed Feminist.

          • brettearle

            Plenty of men are emotionally decadent and feel that way.

            But they DON’T KILL. As in MASS MURDER.

            There can be a BIG DIFFERENCE between ugly minds and severe Mental Illness.

            You don’t know what you are talking about.

            And the saddest part is that you THINK you know what you are talking about.

          • pennyroyal

            ignorant comments….

          • brettearle

            If you think they’re ignorant, explain why.

            You’re sweeping statements, without backing them up, only shows you without a rational argument.

            Amen…

          • Mike

            You’re inarticulate. Can you provide your analysis of where the ignorance lies? If not, why even pretend you’re participating in the debate in any substantive manner.

          • brettearle

            This is an example of how extremists, of all kinds, flail in the winds….without having the maturity to concede their incoherent points…..

            ….their inability to recognize their own flaws is a reflection of the tragic flaw of every biased human being:

            A Bruised Ego

            Pride Goeth Before the Fall.

            The Truth Shall Set Them Free….

          • pennyroyal

            jeeze, you’re a genius and know it all. Why weren’t you interviewed??

          • brettearle

            Thanks much, for the compliments.

            I appreciate them.

          • pennyroyal

            read Violence by James Gilligan if you (all) want a deeper understanding. There is a perspective that is not being heard.

          • brettearle

            Mike,

            See above

        • brettearle

          NO…..

          I did NOT categorize you as a Radical Feminist.

          I offered a Pre-Emptive caveat….

          I said that I might have been Presumptuous.

          It is YOU who decided that I was 100% guilty until proven innocent.

          I decided that you were likely guilty.

          But I was holding out hope.

          And, no, I CATEGORICALLY reject that I am contributing to the problem.

          It is a sad, sad state of affairs, indeed, when very bright women, such as yourself, IGNORE the OBVIOUS signs of Mental Illness, in their very own graphic descriptions of the assailant.

          And then they go on to twist and turn those observations around and try to blame the Individual–that would be me–who is trying to parse distinctions and point out knee-jerk reactions and general observations–based on biased agendas…..

          ….so as to salvage the real, credible, and venerable roots of the Feminist Movement….

          which is to get men and women to respect each other in a many, many equal and respectful ways…..

          RATHER than to fall into puerile, biased, and convoluted prisms of grey–simply because they believe that they have a Gotcha moment against men.

          Rodger was a pathetic and irrational human being, who used the object of his Hatred–women–as a psychotic rationale to blindly kill women AND men in a deranged rampage that, in the final analysis, had little to do with Misogyny.

          Misogyny was only the trigger.

          Thousands and thousands of men, who resent women, DON’T KILL THEM.

          Is the point.

          IT is YOU who does a disservice to the Feminist Movement–by your glaring Bias,.

          I am simply trying to clean up your Act.

          And an Act it surely is.

          • Mike

            Amen.

          • pennyroyal

            you are delusional and in denial.

          • brettearle

            Wrong again.

            Your irrational anger is the blind bias.

            My rational annoyance is directed at your blind and very, very regrettable bias.

          • pennyroyal

            rational?? Try some critical thinking buster.

        • HonestDebate1

          He also said he was going to kill men and he did. He showed disgust for men who were having sex. He was deranged.

          I am here to tell you there are many women who equate men with their sexual parts and nothing more. I’ve seen it but I don’t assume that they speak for all women.

          • pennyroyal

            he wanted to have sexual relations with women and not necessarily relationships…he was angry at himself that he couldn’t. He blamed his being bi-racial, wanted only his white father’s approval. I mean, really read his MANifesto. He was angry and this was nothing but misguided revenge.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      Kate, I feel that the host asked her to be very clear because we the listeners needed to have a very clear understanding of this issue. The guest is someone who has thought long and hard on this issue, and the host was deferring to her expertise.

    • Mike

      For one thing, the men held pretty much the same views as the woman. And he did ask the men to explain themselves. What John Donvan was ATTEMPTING to do for the first half of the interview is bring SOME semblance of balance to the conversation. He himself couldn’t believe that the three of them were trying to assert that the mindset that this sick kid had represented a more general mindset in America. He eventually gave in and just went with it.

    • pennyroyal

      Jessica Valenti would be terrific. We need from women leaders. Too bad the trolls here are venting about radical feminists and on-and-on. Some posters here do not have a clue and try ‘substitutionary judgment’ which they can’t do. Too much judgmentalism about women, always, so little attempt to understand.

      • OnPointComments

        It is the height of irony that you would criticize anyone about being too judgmental.

        • pennyroyal

          it’s the name calling….it’s so unnecessary and blocks any meaningful conversation. Why do men think they can tell women how to be better women?? How screwy is that??!

          • brettearle

            Balderdash IS name calling.

            YOU used that term above.

            Hypocrisy, thy name is Bruised Ego

          • jefe68

            Really? Are so immature as this comment make you out to be?

          • brettearle

            Jef–

            I can back up most of my criticisms.

            Sometimes, I can’t.

            When I can’t, then, yes, I am being immature.

            But not in this case.

            This individual is accusing others of calling others names, while she is name calling herself.

            That makes her fair game…because of her blatant Hypocrisy.

            But, in any case, I don’t mind you taking me on.

            I happen to like you and respect you, regardless….

          • jefe68

            You guys have been going on and on, and on. You’re starting to sound like a bunch of guys who have some serious problems with women.

            Do you know any women who have been in violent relationships? Or have been attacked?

          • brettearle

            Jef–

            I am ONLY addressing the incident of Rodger.

            And HIS actions.

            Not other Men who dislike women.

            I do not think that Rodger represents other men who dislike women.

            I am focusing on this story only.

            The issue is whether we got THIS STORY right.

            OTHERWISE, yes, many men are utter jerks and often don’t respect women.

            But the point is, as far as I’m concerned, I am taking a controversial position, I know.

            But I am trying to get us to see that the ISSUE HERE is mental illness.

            And that Mental Illness is being EXPLOITED for a socio-political agenda.

            When we do that, we DO A DISSERVICE to the Feminist Movement of Women’s Rights.

            Because we are otherwise showing up our radical bias and blind political agendas.

            Rodger did NOT kill because he hated women.

            If that were true many, many more Misogynists would kill.

            Rodger killed because he was MENTALLY ILL.

            That is my ONLY point.

            Otherwise many men in our society are jerks –if they disrespect women.

          • pennyroyal

            why do you think s/he who shall not be named is female?

  • whoo123

    Yeah, loved the part about women losing their ‘commitment worthiness’ by becoming old, fat or single mom-y…

    • pennyroyal

      just another vicious woman-hating troll who blames women for everything that’s wrong in their lives.

  • Bill98

    Because it is sexless does not necessarily mean it is loveless. It is you who is equating the two, not Andrew. Why, also, don’t you try answering his question, if you can, instead of responding with irrelevant questions?

  • bobbyriled

    I am a man (many men would object and some women too) and I find that this conversation makes me angry at women where I wasn’t angry before.

    As a man who has been threatened by other men, taunted into fights (I always either walked away or ran away) I imagine that if I were a woman those threats, those taunts, would have been more frightening. Although I am still replaying, ten years later, that time some brute punched me in the face just because he felt like hitting me, I am sure that if he’d raped me those replays would be more painful.

    So though I’m sure there are women here who would insist that I can’t possibly understand, there must some women among them who can imagine that I can imagine some part of it.

    I can imagine that the only men some women notice are the men who get into their face, those brutes that all of the men I have as friends despise. We despise them not solely because of their exploitation of women’s physical weakness but because of their disrespect, their contempt in fact, for decency, civility, responsibility – traits that the men I know as friends hold to be essentials, and that any woman who has put attention to the works of ethical male thinkers will recognize.

    So yes. After listening to this I found myself angry at all women.

    Then, miraculously, while I was listening to the podcast, my phone rang.

    A trio of young women had found my wallet on the sidewalk, 411ed my number and called me to tell me they’d found it. I tried to arrange the meeting but they got us together and presented it to me, complete with the $300 in twenties. I gave them one and then regretted that I hadn’t given them each one. What was I thinking? They could have taken off with the whole $300.

    So what’s the takeaway? There is NOT a war. Could we please STOP this imaginary war between men and women. The war is between the brutes, the nutcases, and the decent responsible people who post to this forum, and the bazillion other good PEOPLE too.

    • pennyroyal

      there is a rightwinger on Fox who is saying there’s a War on Men! Anything to deflect attention from this as a moment in time when we can learn important lessons.

  • Mike

    Here’s what was really going on with this show. A month or two ago the White House declared that the Democratic party had to target women in the interim elections. So they declared a women’s agenda for the next year. And the news media — and most especially NPR — has been executing its marching orders and trying to stir up gender issue controversies so that the White House can come out and publicly chastise men, and set up forums in which women feel that the Dems are trying to do stuff for them. Morning Edition, for several weeks now, has been running one or two stories that are basically declaring that women are horribly oppressed. Part of this news agenda involves distorting and exploiting news events, such as the Santa Barbara killing. Step in OnPoint — let’s declare that this guy was a misogynist, even though half the dead are men, and put on a show loaded with radical feminists, and portray women as victims and men as beasts.

    • OnPointComments

      What you describe is the modus operandi of this administration and Democrats. From day one when Barack Obama began campaigning for president, he and his minions have sought to divide, not unite, American citizens. They have blamed the rich, conservatives, George Bush, Republicans, whites, business owners, Fox News, talk radio, men, the Koch brothers, and on and on, for all of the problems that a Democratic president and Democrats in Congress are unable to solve.

      • Mike

        Right. But what I’m trying to say also is that the news media is in on it. They follow orders and do the work of psychologically prepping people for the machinations of gender politics, or, the politics of division. And that’s why we’re all arguing here — we’re being jerked by he media as they try to lay the groundwork for the next election. Look at illegal immigration (also euphemistically known as immigration reform). Obama declared early in the year that immigration reform was a big push this year. So within a month or two Morning Edition is dutifully running a long series called something like “On the Border”, in which they do a month-long road trip along the border, the goal of which is to portray ILLEGAL immigrants in a sympathetic light. There was not a single story that was negative. They never asked, for example, “why did you come here if you knew you were breaking the law and that you would be deported if you were caught?”

        • pennyroyal

          egad what rigid thinking…

          • Mike

            You’re a troll — you don’t say anything.

          • jefe68

            Hmmm… losing it are we?

          • Mike

            These stupid little comments are getting boring. Looks like I have 5 more of yours to slog through. Might skip them. I’m hungry for real debate, madame.

          • Mike

            You’re vacuous
            — you don’t say anything.

          • Mike

            You’re a troll — you don’t say anything.

          • pennyroyal

            gee I’m flattered, no one ever called me a troll before. Commenting on your posts would only drag me into your mindset and that’s not a place I want to go.

          • Mike

            No, no, no — a troll is someone who goes to a social media site and just tries to stir things up, without providing any substance.

          • Mike

            You’re vacuous — you say nothing.

          • pennyroyal

            these set pieces of yours are what say nothing! Do you do anything but watch Fox News?

          • Mike

            I don’t own a tv.

          • pennyroyal

            Well that is ideal, good for you, avoiding a lot of acrimony. But talk radio can be pretty vile, too.
            Frankly, I am surprised to find the discussion on this subject to be so uninformed. I don’t mean you necessarily. But it gets pretty tiring for women and those wanting to reduce violence of all kinds to repeatedly get the kind of pushback that has filled this discussion.
            We all need to be listening to one another and generally I am a good listener but I won’t listen to cant and willed ignorance or just meanness.

          • Mike

            I don’t own a tv because I found it to be too mesmerizing and addictive…when I was in college. Plus, the majority of junk I see on tv when I stay at a hotel is horrible.

          • Mike

            Regarding your second point, if women want to have a dialog then they should initiate a dialog. The feminists don’t dialog and mutually problem-solve with men. They objectify men, and then demonize them, and conflate normal masculinity with pathology. Which was what they did with the whole premise of this conversation. You’re not going to get men to listen to you if you tell them that they are in the same league with this sick kid. Like I’ve tried to convey in my many comments, I take care of my Mother, I still care for my ex-wife and treat her well, and I have a young daughter, who I expect to be a very successful person. So you just seem out of it when you declare that I, and the majority of men, who are like me, to be like a mentally ill 22 year old. Sorry. Perhaps the premise of such a dialog should be something like “what are the cultural and social ways that men and women objectify and exploit each other”. I’m guessing that sounds too balanced for you because it allows for the fact that women might just be doing something that’s exploitative of men.

          • pennyroyal

            I only watch PBS, mostly the documentaries on science, travel, and the arts. Don’t go to movies either–too much sleaze, cynicism, and violence.

        • HonestDebate1

          I really agree with you on this and have gone so far as to directly ask On Point if they were in contact with democrat operatives. President Obama made a speech on inequality and there was a show. He pivoted to climate change, another show.

          • Mike

            Interesting. The key question is whether the shows are objective, or, whether they are overtly or subtly pushing the administration’s agenda. I can tell you for sure that Morning Edition and All Things Considered and Diane Rehm push the administration’s agenda — they are not objective. And that fact highlights the problem with public radio —- the way it’s funded — they fear losing funding, so they lack not only objectivity, they also lack a spirit of challenging the establishment, and doing real investigative journalism.

          • Mike

            This isn’t an example of a show being run to support the administration, but it is an example of a small part of a show that overtly supported the administration. Remember when that interview footage was leaked in which, during a break, when discussing Libya and Qadaffi’s (sp?) death Hillary joked “I came, I saw, you died”. And then she and the interviewer laughed? Hillary was getting all of this really negative press as a result of that leak. It was during the height of the furor that, during one of the Friday News Roundup shows, Diane and David Ignatious made a slight diversion off-topic and just gushed on and on about what a remarkable woman Hillary was. It was nauseating because it was such a blatant attempt to counteract the negative press. It was clear who they were working for. And it was unconscionable for journalists of their (supposed) caliber to be doing this.

          • HonestDebate1

            I suppose anything the President says is newsworthy. I get that but it sure does work out to his advantage. I certainly agree with your sentiment about investigative journalism. The press is supposed to have an adversarial relationship with politicians. Tom Ashbrook is no Mike Wallace.

          • Mike

            My Lord, last week or the week before, NPR ran a series of stories from their investigative journalist. I didn’t even know they had one. And you know what he covered? The fact that local courts around the country are charging court fees and putting people in jail for not paying fines and fees. Are you kidding me? You are paying an investigative journalist’s salary, and that’s what you put him on? Well, it makes sense. If they began investigating Congress, or the CIA, or Obama — -funding would get cut. So they pick something insignificant and inflate its significance to epic proportions, and pretend that they are fulfilling some noble mission. Big joke.

          • HonestDebate1

            Wow.

          • Mike

            I’m curious — how did you go about asking them? Did you do it during a call-in? Email them? Call the producers? Any response?

          • HonestDebate1

            I did it with a comment here which may not have been the best channel but I do know there are moderators who read every comment. I got no response but promised not to read anything into it,

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/04/15/matt-taibbi-inequality-the-divide#comment-1343445308

          • Mike

            Great comment. Regarding getting through to these people, I actually engage in what I call “media activism”. I am constantly challenging media outlets by emailing and calling them. I’d suggest you try to call OnPoint and speak to the producers. It’s best to do this when the show isn’t being recorded, because they often are busy. But if you call after the day’s first recording/broadcast, you can often connect to them. If that’s an interest of yours. I’ve had very great success. Somebody has to challenge them.

          • HonestDebate1

            I certainly could do more and I definitely agree all concerned listeners should step up. That’s good advice. Duly noted.

            Years ago I did the same thing with the Charlotte, NC NPR station. To their credit they invited me on air for an hour. I accepted and it went well.

          • Mike

            Wow, that’s a real accomplishment. What did you challenge them on? I usually contact the national journalists. One thing I did locally was get my NPR station to not carry Ira Glass’ show on Christmas Day. Every year he rebroadcasts on Xmas day a show that mocks Christianity, Christmas, and Jesus. It was super-offensive. I contacted the President of NPR, and she passed me on to Ira. And I engaged him in a discussion. He wouldn’t admit that his show was mocking. So I got in touch with the local station. They agreed that it was offensive and then chose to not carry the show on Christmas thereafter.

          • HonestDebate1

            It wasn’t such an accomplishment. The show “Charllotte Talks” with Mike Collins decided to try having a panel of “Average Joes”, made up of 4 listeners. They did it every six weeks or so. I heard the first one and was appalled at the one-sided liberal love fest and said so. By then I was a regular commenter on their blog so they knew who I was. They invited me to be on the second installment. There was another conservative as well and two liberals.

          • Mike

            That’s fantastic. Where I live we actually have a radio station that JUST allows local people to submit ideas for shows. I’m putting together my own proposal for a show, and that actually was one of my ideas — to have well-informed people who are not professional commentators, of who do not have overt political affiliations. It would be an interview show, and I would have these “average people” join me as co-interviewers. Good for you in doing that.

          • Mike

            Here’s a great example of both the media working for the administration, as well as race baiting politics. You know this whole controversy with Donald what’s-his-name, the NBA owner who told his girlfriend not to post photos with black people to Instagram, or, to appear in public with black people? To me, if you listened to the full audio of that discussion, the REAL story was not that he was racist. He said repeatedly that he wasn’t racist, and that he didn’t mind if she spent time with black people and other minorities. He said that they both do that — have them to dinner, etc. He just didn’t want her to broadcast this. And the reason, he said several times, was that HE STARTED GETTING PHONE CALLS WHEN SHE DID THIS. Trust me, he wasn’t getting phone calls from people like us. He was getting phone calls from other very powerful people who did not want him to be publicly seen with blacks. He said he can’t stand getting the phone calls. WHO is this larger group that is pressuring him to not be seen with blacks? And why don’t they want him seen with them? THAT’S the real story. Nobody covered that. And I got in touch with probably 6 or 7 different journalists and gave them this angle. Nobody would touch it. They wanted to scapegoat the guy to engage in the race baiting.

          • HonestDebate1

            Keep up the good work.

          • pennyroyal

            yeah it’s the blind talking to the blind with you two guys, real brilliance of thought. Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle- Dum.

          • HonestDebate1

            Can I be twiddle-dum?

          • enhancedvibes

            umm thats bc that is how media works duh? Trust me, dems wish they were as organizedas those onthe right. Decades ago Iin womens fashion mag arties about how to use certain products, usually makeup, appeared on an opposing pg from an ad for said product. It took decades for editors to stand up to advertisers who demanded this practice. Again this is how media works. Your comment applies more to the right anyway. If you dont see that youre not watching but someone just has to coin a term and then EVERYONE on the right is uaing it. THAT is REAL media power.

      • pennyroyal

        180 degrees wrong. Don’t get into partisanship. That’s hijacking the discussion. Who are you On Point?? are you connected to On Point? Cause you certainly are biased.

    • jefe68

      The real you is now finally exposed. Men don’t have to take it? Are you kidding?

      • Mike

        We’re all here making pretty strong, balanced, logical arguments, you’re just making claims. Bring your A game if you want to play in the big leagues.

    • enhancedvibes

      You are literally too stupid to insult. You can totally tell when a guy is mra bc he starts talking about how logical his points are when theyre clearly illogical. It is clear from your comments that you, like most mras, dont understand the roleof govt, how govt works or the law amd the constitution.

      And Yes men do have to take it bc women make up half the population therefore their issues get to be addressed by govt too! Read theconstiution.

      Also of course Dems care about womens issues bc again they make up half the population. Better argument to make is that the GOP doesnt care about women, or anyone else for that matter but thats for a diff thread.

      Only dudes such as yourself belive women think of themselves as victims or that all men are bad. Being wary of strange men is self preservation and imperative to womens health. Youve clearly read nothing on #yesallwomen.

      • Mike

        I’ve read the Constitution. I was involved in a Tea Party Constitution course this Spring, in fact. And, no, I’m not a member of the Tea Party. I voted for Obama in ’08, and independent in ’12.
        You basically have said you’re victims, You’re not even logical.
        Oh, sage, can you lay out very specifically what you’re saying about The Constitution and how it relates to this issue? I’m looking forward to this one.

        • jefe68

          Tea party constitution course…
          Well that speaks volumes.

      • Mike

        We weren’t talking about strange men. Now you’re flipping — you’re slippery, like a fish flapping on the shore. I’m sorry, but you really are giving me a headache. I have to stop. Thanks.

    • enhancedvibes

      Surprise you were a burner account, figures. MRA Trolls

  • Mike

    With you man. You probably have some great insights. I just don’t think the rock ‘n roll lingo (ie, manosphere) will fly with the over-25 crowd. The NPR audience falsely views itself as being cerebral, so a more sober style is necessary.

  • OnPointComments

    Susan Smith placed her two boys, ages 3 and 14 months, in a car, then rolled the car into a lake and drowned them.

    Andrea Yates drowned her five children, ages 6 months to 7, in the bathtub, starting with her three boys, then her daughter, then she chased her last son, caught him, and drowned him.

    Society and social constructs have told all women that it’s OK to kill your children. Women pass along this violent tendency to their children, both male and female. We as a society and community have a responsibility to address the issues of maternal filicide in our culture. Women need to teach other women that feelings of sadness and rejection are natural and normal, and they are not good reasons to go out and kill your children. Until all women stop harboring these violent feelings and passing them along to their children, we will continue to live with violence in this society.

    What a crock, huh? I wanted some of the commenters to experience broad, inaccurate negative generalizations applied to an entire segment of the population, so I paraphrased from some of the comments. Yes, Susan Smith drowned her two boys, and yes, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children, and do you know who is responsible? Susan Smith and Andrea Yates. Not all women. Not society. Generalizations that all men are misogynists, or most men, or anything beyond a small percentage of men, are incorrect and may be an indication of the mental health of those who make the statements; perhaps therapy could help them.

    Elliot Rodger was mentally ill, and 14 years of therapy didn’t help him. He is not representative of any segment of society at large, nor is any segment of society responsible for his mental illness. The only person responsible for the acts of Elliot Rodger is Elliot Rodger.

    • Mike

      Great illustration.

      • jefe68

        Of what? Another person with mental Illness.

        • Mike

          Maybe you need to read things more than once to understand them. His point was quite clear.

          • jefe68

            You sure are piece of work buddy.
            I know full well what OPC’s agenda is.

            I see it,I get it.You are on a mission to restore “manliness” into society. Real men eat red meat and drink straight up whisky and the only mixed drink they have is a boiler maker. Except James Bond, who does drink vodka martinis, stirred not shaken. But wait, James Bond is Scottish and they wear kilts. He’s foreign as well, those feminine foreigners…

            Real men call the shots and tell women how it’s going to be and if they don’t like it, well they can take a powder. Yeah, like Sam Spade in the Maltese Falcon, able to slap women around when he had to. Spade was no fall guy for a dame, no way, he was real man…
            Funny how the villains where feminine Europeans, like the Peter Loire character.

            Real men are like John Wayne and Earl Flynn, (well maybe not him, he wore tights) Charles Bronson, Sylvester Stallone and Chuck Norris.

    • pennyroyal

      balderdash

    • HonestDebate1

      That’s a great analogy OPC. It feels creepy to make such insane projections doesn’t it?

      I actually played a bar in Union, SC not long after Susan Smith was arrested. She was a frequent patron and people knew her. There is no lower form of life than a mother who murders her own children,

    • pennyroyal

      Drivel, utter drivel and still more women-blaming. Guys like you are always blaming-women so as not to have to face themselves.

    • francomaistre

      Great analogy, great post. This is exactly how it feels to have psychotic murderous acts linked to the male gender.

    • enhancedvibes

      As a woman who actually understands the criminal justice system, unlike you, I thought Yates shouldve received the death penalty as she planned it, knew what sh was doing and knew it was wrong. Ironically its a sexist society that has trouble believing women can do such heinous things, but surprise, theyre human too and also commit violence. This is not news.

      Anyway its a false analogy bc…fact. men kill their children, and other children, more than women kill children. THAT is why we’ll never be having a conversation about infanticide by mothers bc its not even remotely common whereas in this case violence against and hatred of women is. Next!

  • Jonnie

    Oh please…where to start. Maybe with welcome to living in a primate society. Male aggression and violence is a given in all realms. It’s nothing specific to do with woman. It’s also for protecting the cave from saber toothed tigers and the tribe from the neighboring valley. Boys are raised by their mothers and sisters to be this way and most women wouldn’t have it any other way. Sissy boys don’t get many dates, as Roger in Santa Barbara found out.

    If the avowed feminist guest can’t deal with it, maybe she out to join a tribe of bonobos and leave us homo-sapiens behind. I hear they have very little male aggression and both the males and females are in a permanent state of extesy.

    • jefe68

      Oh the inanity.

    • pennyroyal

      okay, Freud, clearly your take on primate intelligence has misled you again. Too bad your commentary is so shallow and insipid.

      • Jonnie

        Doesn’t take a Freud to figure thus one out. I’m just saying that male dominance and aggression is inate to most primate species (and mammals in general) and that most females learn (or probably just instinctually) to deal with it. Again, just about all males are raised and socialized by their female relatives and if females thought it was evolutionary valuable to the species, they could probably socialize this aggression out. But over millions of years they have chosen not too so there must be a reason for it. The recent crop of feminist sapiens might not like it but seems they need to be talking to their fellow sisters and not to men. And I don’t see any feminist chimps marching for their rights so its pretty funny seeing their sapiens compatriots doing otherwise.

        • enhancedvibes

          That second sentence, wow, you are a truly disgusting person.anyway evo psych is not science and duh human beings have higher cognitive function AND CAN TALK. That last sentence is so much trolling mr.mra.

    • Salty

      You actually are making a very solid point. We need to be taught to act like men. Men to be taught to treat women with respect and love. Men to be manly.

    • enhancedvibes

      Human beings are capable of cognitive thinking so take that non science evo psych argument elsewhere. I mean, do you evem realize you’re arguing that raping women and violence against them is engrained in mens biology? You dont think very highly of men I guess and ironically feminists think more highly of men than you do!

  • pennyroyal

    ah, yes, let’s make it all about men now. Women, in the view of the Duck Dynasty types, are so boring. And Rollo, are you another MRA?? There’s nothing, repeat nothing rational here by the male trolls.

    Probably, their wives (if they are lucky enough to have one) and female relatives have heard their rants about misogyny so long they don’t listen anymore. Therefore they have to pi– and moan here.

  • Yep

    Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds
    by Arthur ChuMay 27, 2014 12:07 pm EDT
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html

    • Laude Primevera

      I heard his interview today in the car and read his article thanks for the link. This and some of the more insightful comments from people here has really opened my eyes to the bigger picture.

      I feel like this was a really an “ah-ha” moment for me, when I think back to experiences I’ve had as an individual female.

      The take away for me personally is that I’m going to be changing my behavior. I’m not going to accept this behavior from men anymore and I’m going to call them out on it when it is safe to do so. I may be called a bitch, or a femenazi or make some men uncomfortable…but I don’t care. It makes me uncomfortable when I hear or see sexism. I makes me EXTREMELY uncomfortable when I try to deflect a guys advances with “oh I have a boyfriend” and a polite smile he says back to me “I don’t care”. From now on it’s going to be “Don’t talk to me like that” no smile, no apologies.

      Here is Arthur Chu’s interview: http://www.npr.org/2014/05/30/317361633/jeopardy-champ-arthur-chu-on-nerds-entitlement-and-elliot-rodger?ft=1&f=

  • pennyroyal

    you got any statistics to back up this anecdotal rant?
    Because your message doesn’t fit with any statistics I have ever read or heard of. Or is it all a plot?

  • http://hammernews.com/ hammermann

    Oh, man- if all the guys who aren’t getting laid go out and kill, rampage killers will multiply 5-fold. I wrote a huge article review of the COPYCAT EFFECT, the tendency for marginal people to exactly copy every twisted extreme act. Sadly, the truth isn’t that tired feminist obsession w mysogeny, but the opposite- American men are more disempowered, lonelier, and powerless than almost any other men in the world. All men feel they are owed love and affection.. as are all women.. as are all humans- only Americans would make that a pathology. The truth is also few US men haven’t had their lives at some point arbitrarily trashed by vindictive, crazy, or lying women. They aren’t always the victims, and violent abuse (animals all) is probably rarer in America than almost everywhere else.
    http://hammernews.com/copycateffect.htm

    • Jonnie

      The lack of an affordably priced commercial sex industry is also to blame. In any society with allot of sexually frustrated males, whatever the cause, will have excessive violence. It may not be PC but it’s a fact. I’m not saying it would have prevented Roger from going on his rampage, as he claimed to be looking for the GFE, but in general it would mellow most unattached males out and reduce both male on male and male on female violence.

      • enhancedvibes

        While I support safe and regulated legalized prostitution all youre sating here is that men have never learned to deal well with their sexuality. You dont think very highly of men. Majority of violent crime is committed by men against men. It hasnlittle to do with sexual frustration and everything to do euth the fact that our socity approves of aggression andviolence as a way for men to prove their manhood. This Iis ALL about how we teach gendrr and bc ppl like you keep wanting to blieve these habits are just boys will be boys pregents us from dealingwith the real issue, increased hyper masculinity which is a direct backlash to feminis bc for millenia men have been taught that women exist to serve men and children.

        • Jonnie

          Did you actually read my post? I said explicitly said that sexually frustrated males will act out their aggression against both female and other males. And contrary to what you say, men are dealing with their sexuality, which says to seek out and have sexual intercourse with the opposite gender of your species. Men who are frustrated in this endeavor will act out in antisocial ways. Most women have no problem with this and in fact welcome this behavior. That’s one way homo-sapiens have populated the while planet with 7 billion+ copies of ourselves. Like I also said, males are raised and socialized primarily by females so if thus behavior wasn’t evolutionarily valuable, it would have been breed or socialized out of the species. You personally may not like it but these are the facts.

          • enhancedvibes

            Wow you are the only guy who responded to my comments that wasn’t using a burner account to engage in MRA trolling. Brava for not being a fake!

            I cant agree with your comment because the majority of violence is committed by men against men, and very little of it is related to sex or relationships, though most of it IS about asserting one’s manhood. I simply dont agree with evo psych arguments because they aren’t science – they are a reflection of generations of socializing. These behaviors are not wholly innate, but largely learned.

            ” men are dealing with their sexuality, which says to seek out and have
            sexual intercourse with the opposite gender of your species.”

            You’re too heterocentric. NO sexuality does not say that MASCULUNITY says that. See, all the women who arent going about their lives constantly seeking sex because they got other sh*t going on. Most men are also not constantly seeking sex and most would agree that men whose prime motivation in life, is sex, are pretty pathetic dudes.

            “Men who are frustrated in this endeavor will act out in antisocial ways.”

            So again, men not learning how to deal with their sexuality well, like I said. You proved my point.

            “Most women have no problem with this and in fact welcome this behavior. T”

            You actually believe this tripe? You cant use the word most when you cant prove your point. It is utterly absurd to opine that most women are ok with men acting out with antisocial behavior since most women are anti-violence and anti-sexual aggression when it makes them feel unsafe. You are clearly not a woman so do not try and mansplain to me otherwise. I AM TELLING YOU!

            As to that its all womens (mothers) fault,, dude get a clue. Women are not to blame for everything in the world and it is sickening that guys who think like you lack such consistency and understanding of history. Boys do not look to their mothers to learn what it means to become a man, even in a single mother household, a man who he trusts and looks up to is going to have his ear more on what it means to be a man than his own mother. Being disingenuous gets us nowhere. Regardless you will believe what you want to believe but you will never take away womens rights so i guess men best learn to deal with not being top dog anymore since the fields are being leveled.

          • Jonnie

            Some thoughtful points you make and I will have to consider them carefully so as to make an intelligent response.

    • Mike

      I have a friend who is a divorce attorney. She specializes in representing men who are divorcing from such vindictive, crazy, lying women. Many of them are borderline personalities. It’s interesting that, what, 95% of borderline cases are women. Borderlines are very abusive.

      • kaaramel

        To Mr. Mike and Mr. Hammerman: There’s a song that goes not every man can find a good woman, not every woman can find a good man. I disagree with this. They probably don’t know how to find the good other but the good other is always there. I observed that in my high school class all the guys would try to get the affection of one girl who was not interested in any of them. They would allow her to slap them around, talk down to them and be generally verbally abusive toward them. None of these guys would ever allow any of the other girls to do this to them, in fact they were often physically and verbally abusive to the other girls who did nothing to them. Why is this? They all wanted the hot girl. If these guys continue on this path, they will end up with “vindictive, crazy, and lying” women when what they really wanted was right there all along. This is just an anecdote of course. My message to men and women in abusive relationships such as this is: be wise and patient and try to see where your own blindness played a role in your situation. If you know you want a hot mate know that you will have to search long and hard for this person. Don’t make any serious decisions when you’re all hot under the collar.

        • Mike

          Mature adults are beyond wanting JUST a hot mate. And regarding your comment about blindness, you often have to GET INVOLVED before certain qualities emerge. It’s trendy pop-psychology to declare that the qualities we dislike in a mate we actually sought and wanted, but that’s not always true. You can’t see the whole person after dating a month. Some qualities you don’t become aware of for years. Or, the person changes after years.

      • whoo123

        Actually, 75% of those diagnosed with borderline personality are women while 75% of those diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder are men. The former tend to turn their violence inward, as in suicide while the latter become violent towards others.

        • Mike

          You’re talking about violence — I was talking about abuse. Borderline women are extremely psychologically abusive and destructive.

          • whoo123

            Right… Because an antisocial person would never indulge in verbal or psychological violence….the condition is characterized by aggression, Einstein.

          • Mike

            My point wasn’t to deny that men can be pathological. Rather, I was commenting on Hammmerman’s comment that women can also be very abusive and destructive. They also can be very pathological, just like men. In fact, they represent the majority of borderlines, which are very destructive. That’s all.

          • whoo123

            So you take the time to tell us the obvious….that people of either gender can be a-holes?

    • enhancedvibes

      Thats all in your head. Also it’s mostly only white guys who really believe that. That is why PUA, the MRM and the tea party are majority white. Now that more women and POC are accessing govt and making it work for them men are incressingly learning that they are no longer top dog and now must share power. Sorry but mens poor response to civil rights and feminism is all about perceived lack of poeer not any real loss of power.

      Please try and think about what I am saying before giving an angry reotort bc the truth is men have no reason to be defensive. If the comments on #yesallwomen do not reflect who one guy is what is he defending? Maleness, masculinity and manhood are not being demonized bc poor social behavior against women is not what being a man is about.

  • Jonnie

    Please try to condense and edit your thoughts in future. Nobody is going to waste 20 mins of their day reading and analyzing your long-winded missives.

    • wtbausername

      I’ll keep that in mind for the future, but if it takes 20 minutes for someone to comprehend that little amount of text, I’m not sure a discussion with them would be very productive.

      • Jonnie

        I would think just the opposite…that you would want the replies to your posts to be well considered and this takes time. First to read and take in your points and formulate an intelligent reply. If your initial post is longer than usual and comes with its own “see more” button then you are unlikely to get the responses you seek.

        Separate and/or distinct points or arguments can also be posted separately for easy reading. Then people can pick and choose what they may wish to reply to.

  • William Vigliotti

    There are little statistic because female pedophilia is not reported as a crime and boys are told this it is a correct experience! Comedian podcaster Robert Kelly from Boston has told his story many times on his podcast about having sex with women from age 9 then alcoholism and juvenile detention. Every male I know had this experience as a teenager with older girls or adult women. You pretend that girls and women are not sexual but science show they are stimulated by breast feeding, pregnancy etc. Did the boy on the cover of Time magazine (May 11, 2012) have the right to refuse? Women are destructive to boys health (Scientific American June 2011), autism, addiction and sex crimes have all been scientifically/statistically linked to motherhood not fathers. The point is, if fathers raised boys there would be no Eliot Rodger or Adam Lanza or Ted Bundy or serial rapist or drug addicts/alcoholic etc. Do I have to prove I was abused by females by getting my master in social work or psychology then writing my thesis and going on NPR? My sister is social worker with a Masters, she got me drunk at 13 to have sex with her 16 year old friend! Is that enough proof!

    • whoo123

      Autism has been scientifically linked to motherhood? On what planet are you living? I looked up the June 2011 article from Scientific American which says ‘autism has been established as a genetically based disease’.

      I can only assume your other claims were pulled out of the same orifice as that one.

      • William Vigliotti

        Boys suffer more health issues than girls in almost category. What statistics does Soraya offer in her rant? There is nothing to show Elliot was “actually” rejected by women, as all boys are rejected by women as soon as they reach puberty and start producing testosterone, every male knows this. Women have a chemical repulsion to testostrone which means women are by default pedophiles. When the male fetus is in the women and he starts producing testosterone the women begins to attack him, hence autism and all these disorders in boys, thats what the science shows. We need to develop artificial wombs to stop this assault and rape of boys and male fetuses.

        • whoo123

          You are a total nimrod. The incidence of autism has increased thirty-fold since the 60′s….according to your claim, I guess women’s wombs didn’t attack male fetuses decades ago….and I suppose you believe like Rush Limbaugh that the decrease in the average penis size can be blamed on women too.

          Pfffft.

          • William Vigliotti

            Interesting, feminism began in the 60′s. Feminist want to destroy masculinity and the patriarch why not start with our boys? You sound as much a blowhard as Limbaugh, you think Eliot Rodger’s confused thoughts have something to do with actual violence against women in same way that free expression and sexuality is a threat to the right wing moralist. Remember feminist and moralist agree, male sexuality needs to be repressed. There is no evidence that Rodger’s ever tried to get sex or even wanted sex, he lived in a fantasy world of supficiality and jealously…that sounds more like a girl than a boy. Did men blame women for the sexual brutality and torture displayed by Lynndie England toward male prisoners? Women have no morality, men do, hence you have nothing to worry about.

          • enhancedvibes

            Read his manifesto and/or watch the videl. There is no doubt in reasoned peoples minds that he did what he did for any other reason than his own stated reason: he hated women. No amount of rationalizing will get you to that point.

          • William Vigliotti

            Didn’t you hear? Elliot sent all us men a copy of his “manifesto”…we’re all in on it. BTY to Soraya Chemaley: Where is the rape culture manifesto? It’s website? it’s HQ/home office? Type in MRAs (men’s rights activist) on Tumblr/Twitter and you find mostly feminist rants and male genital mutilation. Soraya Chemaley’s Tumblr had image by an artist of hacked off penises (recently removed)…type in ball busting on Tumblr and find feminist rants and male genital mutilation…a recent podcaster (AC) stated his daughter came home a was taught how to kick boys in the balls. Why should I read Elliot Rodger’s manifesto, it’s sound like a feminist rant, he was raised by a women, schooled by a women, medicated by a women. He also killed men…did he read his own manifesto?

          • enhancedvibes

            Also an MRA trolling burner account.

    • jefe68

      Hmmm, you seem to have a lot of people in your family with some serious issues.
      Which would explain your absurd rant.

    • enhancedvibes

      Why do guys who argue these points know nothing about criminal law. Pedophilia is NOT the same as child abuse. That is why you dont see that being reported in the news. Adult women having sex wih teens is just as disgusting as when men do it but lest you forget it is always men who think its awesome he “scored” wit an older woman, well, unless they deem her ugly. Women who sexually abuse their child, while also disgusting and deplorable still does not make them pedophiles, just horrible parents and abusers. Men who do this also do not get tagged as pedophiles, only actual pedophiles do. smh

      Also boys do not look to women to learn how to become men but nie try at blaming women for all our social Iillls. Will men ever take responsibili for their own actions? Bc this topic is not about you its about women and the way men treat them due to their entitlement issues.

  • TheLongViewdotOrg

    Reviewing the most recent conversations and remembering from early this week how the interviewer also didn’t get the point, I am really saddened to hear so many men get so defensive. I’m female. I have a sense of threat about me in a way men will not understand, but should please believe and acknowledge. All men play a role in monitoring their own subculture. Yes, you are responsible for wrongs committed right before your eyes and ears when you say nothing or comply with disrespectful and abusive behavior (same should go for women). But you men who say “I would never!…”, that’s not true. War after war, (and many sports teams, etc) men of all races and religions have raped women as groups, influenced by mutual animal instincts. Help women feel safe and just listen. There’s good reason for the fear.

    • Mike

      It’s cheap to accuse men of being “defensive”. What I think you need to do is respond to specific arguments using your own, individually-articulated points. The comments these men are making are not reflexively defensive. Rather, they are extremely well thought out. To apply the blanket label of them being “defensive” is silly.

      • Mike

        Also, we’ve been listening for a long, long time. I don’t see any of the women listening on this thread. They aren’t addressing our specific points. Rather, like you, they are reflexively, categorically, and generally making broad accusations like yours.

        • Mike

          I mean, your perspective is so distorted. You make it sound like a pack of Dads of UC Santa Barbara students went on a shooting rampage that night targeting their own daughters and their friends, and that these Dads were part of a national group of misogynists. Like there is a national crisis of misogynistic murder. It’s crazy. This was the act of a single, extremely sick, isolated, deranged boy. Period.

        • enhancedvibes

          LOL probably bc you and other guys who think like tou on this thread havrnt made any specific points. Anecdotes are not points and neither is the silly gendered bullchit you so want to beleive bc you believe men and women are oh so different.

          • Mike

            You’d have to go back to the beginning of the thread to see the substantive points. It began to fall apart when people like you joined in and, instead of debating the issues, just started pulling all fo that feminist rage-driven accusatory stuff to just stir things up and get us off track. The arguments lost a……..rationality, let us say..

      • enhancedvibes

        Actually they are entirely defensive as we can easily see on #yesallwomen. They think it is more important to defend themselves despite claiming not to be the type of guy reflected in all the comments (so why so defensive?) rather than listen amd take at face value womensreal experiences.

    • jod!e

      This is a great post! As women, we are being asked to be treated
      respectfully, even when we are not interested in dating someone. Nobody is pointing their finger directly at anyone in this conversation. We are saying that IF you engage in this behavior, you are not being respectful, and if you see someone engaging in this behavior, tell them they are not being respectful.

      • Mike

        Jodie, are you guys trying to promote your show? Anyhow, what do you mean? If we engage in what behavior?

        • jefe68

          Being a jerk to women.

    • Taoist_Crocodile

      So, one could just as easily say that women are more responsible for sexism, because:

      1. women buy more consumer products than men, and

      2. consumer products advertising is the feedback mechanism that amplifies the marketing messages that objectify both men and women.

      The point is that it’s not productive to blame men. Rather, we all should focus on inoculating ourselves, our children, and others against objectifying messages in media and popular culture.

      • Taoist_Crocodile

        I’ve been waiting for Reena’s comment to get through moderation, but it doesn’t look like it’s going to happen – Yes, men AND women. Men have bodies too, and have to decide what to wear, and are bombarded with messages about how your body, clothes, car, smell, etc. tell other people everything they need to know about what kind of man you are. That’s objectification.

        And I’m sorry – it’s not true that only men set the standards. Women are well-enough represented in advertising that more and more of those pictures of skinny models are taken, edited, and published by women. Again – men are not the enemy; consumerism is.

        • enhancedvibes

          No one said men are the enemy and sadly you seem to have stopped listening. Men are responsible for how they absorb consumerism, as are women. I am sure both men and women constantly feel conflictedabout what they know about themselves and what our cculture tells them about men and women, but the status quo is more beneficial for men thus they engage in less self introspection as you yourself stated before. Yes men and women are indeed both part of the problem but let us not act like men have evolved as much as women since second wave feminism. Come now.

      • enhancedvibes

        False equivalence since the primary reason women purchase more goods is because they are significantly more likely to be the primary caregiveror the children and the home.

        This defensive response of yours is not inline with your thoughts conveyed in your other posts. Not all men do these things to make women feel unsafe, .but trust me, most women do believe all men are complicit even by simply being quiet when they hear sexist remarks from their friends.

    • brettearle

      The Rodger incident has to do with Mental Illness. Not Misogyny.

      It is especially–But Especially–regrettable that the incident is being co-opted to gratify the agenda for Women’s Rights.

      Rodger–who certainly was a Misogynist–was clearly, and specifically, Mentally Ill.

      If this were an issue about Misogyny, then we would see that all, or most, Misogynists would kill.

      But they don’t. They may be filled with sickening hate. But they are not so disturbed, as to blow people away.

      For the Women’s Rights Movement to commandeer this incident and treat it as an issue for Women’s Rights, not only does a disservice to Women’s Rights but it ignores the direct link of Mental illness to Multiple Murder to Gun Control.

      To see the tragedy from the standpoint of Misogyny, does nothing but to ironically damage those policies, and causes, that strive to halt the pervasive and systemic dangers in our society of Violence, access to Firearms, and severe Mental Illness.

      • Taoist_Crocodile

        Well, misogyny causes plenty of violence – it just happens to be the case that all of the issues you describe overlap in this incident. Addressing misogyny is a perfectly rational response to this highly visible incident, since stopping violence against women is a worthy cause in its own right.

        When a white supremacist kills, we talk about white supremacy. When a radical Islamist kills, we talk about radical Islamism. When a postal worker kills, we talk about postal workers. Why should this be different?

        • enhancedvibes

          That last para says it all. Thanks again.

        • brettearle

          Because, in this case the murderous violence turned into indiscriminate targets.

          One could say that the postal workers who `went postal’ exhibited severe forms of mental illness, as well. They were indiscriminate rampages.

          One could say that the radical Islamists exhibit severe forms of mental illness, as well–although their violence have targets so that there’s a premeditation involved.

          Rodger had a general premeditation. But it turned into a random rampage.

          THAT is extreme mental illness.

          Temporary insanity or not.

          But your argument only deals with titles and semantics to fit your belief system.

          It does not hold water.

          • pennyroyal

            NOT random. He knew exactly who he was going after. He missed some people who got to live, thankfully.

        • brettearle

          Stopping violence against women IS a worthy cause in its own right.

          But this particular incident is ultimately being exploited to advance the wrong cause.

          The Radical feminists are almost completely ignoring the general behavior and issue of Mental Illness, in this case, that is being manifested through the indiscriminate rampage.

          • pennyroyal

            you are paranoid about so-called radical feminists. Most women don’t identify as feminists let alone radical feminists. Yet we all want our daughters to go college and be safe walking down the street.
            Is that too radical for you, mr arbiter??

      • pennyroyal

        ah, Dr. Bretearle, you keep repeating your diagnosis. Where did you get your psychiatry degree? Where do you practice. In forensic psychiatry? No….then shut up about something you are just venting about.

    • francomaistre

      If you want men to be allies on women’s issues, don’t criticize our defensiveness and decry our “mutual animal instincts” of rape in the same breath. Elliot Rodger was on anti-psychotic drugs. He was receiving professional help. He victimized four men in addition to the two women people are focusing on. The killings in Isla Vista are a terrible tragedy, but there is basically nothing any man outside the mental health profession could have done to prevent it. Feminism isn’t an approved treatment for mental illness.

  • IHateFatChicks

    That’s ironic coming from a know nothing house wife who prefers wearing tinfoil hats to stop the “voices” in your pinhead. The data and facts demonstrate, clearly, what a half-wit of a simpleton you are. I truly feel sorry for any children you have and hope your husband escaped.

  • http://alchemicalreaction.blogspot.com/ Alchemical Reaction

    According to historical precedent, in order for the militia to be considered “constitutional”, it MUST be run buy the STATES, not the national military. If control of the national guard was returned to the states, it would at least pave the way for reasonable gun control efforts AND make citizen paramilitary militias less legal.

    Consequently, until control of the National Guard is returned to the states, there will be no successful gun control legislation. Ever. Just ask the supreme court.

  • JustEdith

    This was a very interesting discussion. I really appreciated the fact that they addressed the way we raise our sons. This is something that needs its own show. I deplore the ‘boys will be boys’ attitude and it’s so pervasive. Some of us don’t want our boys to be brutes and we find our efforts thwarted when bad behavior gets a pass with a chuckle and a ‘boys will be boys’ quip. It’s almost as though we give up on them or have lower expectations for them.

    • homebuilding

      Judith…do consider your statement before mere repetition.

      Whilst boys will be boys might occur, occasionally, it is under-reported, yet very widely known among educators that elementary and high school boys are expelled at far greater rates than are girls. College boys are also dismissed for behavioral reasons–while it’s almost unheard of for young women. (it’s not as though female-set standards of behavioral expectation, starting in elementary school, aren’t enforced–often very stringently, and without any real plan for amelioration)

      Most boys grow up never hearing of the severe dichotomy that faces them

      –sit still (quiet and motionless) in church and school; always be just as friendly and social-minded, as are the girls….

      –somehow, in spite of this, accept models of aggressiveness and bravery that society lionizes: pro sports figures; heroic soldiers; brave policemen and firemen;

      In the end, most reasonably well-adjusted men, experiencing some success in family and work life, end up with the ‘needle’ pointed a bit toward assertiveness and action–away from ‘wimphood,’ if you will.

      Like me, I see many reasonable women accepting this as something of a biological reality–most especially women who have both sons and daughters, or nieces and nephews.

      • enhancedvibes

        What dont you get? The way we teach gender is damaging to both girls AND boys. That nonsense about behavior standards in schools needs to die. Every time some dude says that I just assume that guy knows nothing about schools. Students have ALWAYS had to sit quietly when necessary and give their full time and attention to the teacher. Education changed a lot in the 80s due more to educational theories like multiple intelligences. It has nothing to do with what you believe which is apparrntly feminism is to blame. Please get a clue before its too late.

        And that bit about punishment in school is irrelevant.

        Oh and feminists understand full well that society as a whole, comprised of men, women and children perpetuate damaging ideas about gender which does a diservice to all our youth. Read Real Boys for an eye opener. Not once did I feel the need to label the boys sharing their experiences as “feminized” and it is emotionally unhealthy to teach boys that their full expression on the emotional spectrum should not be authenticated bc ppl like you think the feminine is negative.

        YOU sir, are part of the problem.

  • Taoist_Crocodile

    A lot of the reaction here misses the point – this show was about MEN. Not women; men. Specifically, the question is, why do some men feel and act violently toward women?

    The answer, as always, is marketing. Boys grow up wondering how to be men, and they absorb and accept the prevailing culture. Violence, sex and heroics sell products, so those messages are all around us, and inside of us.

    If you accept that a commercial is a 30- to 60-second focused and researched message, and that a child who watches 1 hour of TV a day sees 2 shows and 16 to 32 commercials, then you have to be concerned that marketing is drowning out the influence of parents and real role models. Add in billboards, magazine covers, signs on buses, etc., and you have young minds adrift in a sea of lies and illusions, all intended to trick them and lower their resistance to suggestion.

    I cringed listening to John Donovan trying to get Soraya Chemaly to say “Oh, John, I don’t mean YOU! You’re a great guy!” But, I understand how that feeling can make it difficult to focus on anything else.

    Do you blame an immature woman for her eating disorder? No? Then don’t blame an immature man for his sexist notions, and don’t blame a mature man for the sexist notions of immature men.

    • Mike

      You miss the point. This show wasn’t about why do some men feel and act violently toward women. Rather, it was about why are men generally behaving the way that the UCSB shooter did? That’s why men are reacting the way they are. It’s just a silly premise. OnPoint lost A LOT of credibility for many men with this show.

      • Taoist_Crocodile

        I think “sexual entitlement” is more widespread among men in general than you seem to believe. It’s the common thread between PUAs and PUAHaters, and those two groups act out extreme versions of the feelings that many men harbor.

        My point is that it’s not fair to blame men for this mindset; I’m not denying that it exists.

        I think men generally react to rejection by getting angry. I think a subset of these men hope that the women who reject them are mistreated or humbled by the men they prefer. I think another subset of these men react by trying to hurt women, either physically or emotionally.

        The nice guy getting passed over for the hunky jerk, only for the woman to come to her senses afterwards, is a trope. Many men have internalized it. These aren’t controversial statements.

        • Mike

          I’m between the ages of 45 and 48, and I am divorced. I have been dating for a number of years. I have many, many friends who are in the same situation as I am. I really don’t know what you’re talking about. We’re mature men who reject as much as we are rejected. Adults accept this — they realize that dating and relationships are about a mutual connection, not “getting” sex out of a woman, or gratifying your ego by getting her to “give it up”. What circles do you run in? I don’t get it. Sure, there are sick men. There are sick women. Big deal. That does not represent the majority — not even close to it.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            Well, divorced men between the ages of 45 and 48 don’t exactly constitute a majority either, and I’d be willing to bet that there’s a fair amount of sexual entitlement in that group as well.

            Really, your comment makes it seem like you don’t understand the real world. I recently had several experience of working with a less-educated group of people than my peers, and I can tell you that, as far as this issue is concerned, self-reflection is rare among men in general.

            You shouldn’t take it personally; nor should you accept responsibility for it; just understand that this is reality.

          • Mike

            I am well-educated, but I come from a blue collar family. I also mix a lot with people who lack a college degree. I don’t find that to be the case. Unless you’re talking about the inner-city poor; I interact a fair bit with some inner-city poor people and find them to be good people. However, I admit that I don’t know them that well, so I can’t claim that this isn’t the case with them.
            And I really disagree with you about self-reflection being rare among men. I have spent a good deal of time at a coffee shop I go to interacting with younger men — in their 20s. I also have dealt with many of my kids’ teachers who range from their 20s-30s. And I have found them to be completely feminized. And a major focus is actually placed on “processing” their feelings. Actually, it’s become quite common these days for young women themselves to be frustrated with how feminized their male peers are. I know of a 20-something woman who will only date older men because of this.

          • Mike

            AND, this issue is a big issue that I spend a lot of time discussing with other men. Many of them have observed the same things I have — men who are from all parts of the country.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            The fact that a man is “feminized” – in your view – is not relevant at all to the issue of sexual entitlement. Does the Santa Barbara killer seem like a manly man to you?

            And I didn’t suggest that self-reflection was rare – I suggested that self-reflection around the issue of sexual entitlement is rare, simply because that idea (that good guys deserve sex) is under the surface for most people, and rarely scrutinized in popular culture.

          • Mike

            The feminization is most certainly relevant to the issue of sexual entitlement. Because for these men everything is “mutualized”. All decision-making is “mutualized”. These men assume the whole relational, co-decision-making, processing feelings approach to everything. In a feminine way. This particular woman I know wants a guy who has a sense of sexual aggression.
            Also, are telling me that you personally know people who have asserted that good guys “deserve” sex, and that you think this is a common view among men?
            I haven’t experienced, or don’t know, anyone who is the way that you are describing. So the only way I’m getting this information is through people like you — on a website. I would have to encounter it first-hand to really believe it.
            Which reminds me — these horrible men that were being discussed in that show — the guests kept referring to comments on some bloody websites. So it appears to me that they too are getting their information through anonymous posts. Sounds questionable to me.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            Fair enough – I have no real interest in trying to convince you that this is real, but it’s weird that you would disparage the idea of sex being a mutual decision, and assert that what women really want is sexually aggressive men. That sounds questionable on multiple levels.

            And yes – I’ve known several men who go from idolizing a woman to calling her a “bitch” when their interest isn’t reciprocated, and several of them have been the “feminized” men you describe. Their rationale has to be, “I’m a good guy, so she should want to have sex with me. The fact that she doesn’t means that she’s doing me an injustice; ergo, she’s a bitch.” That’s what sexual entitlement is. And it’s not something that people elaborate as I’ve just done – these are just nasty emotions that nobody wants to admit to having.

          • Mike

            Uh-uh! You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say this. I said that I know that the youngish men have been so feminized that it frustrates the women. I wasn’t saying that these women want to be raped. I’m just saying that in the bedroom SOME women want the men to be more aggressive and masculine. That doesn’t mean that they want an unequal relationship. If you still don’t understand the nuance I’m trying to express here please let me know — your first paragraph does not represent what I said.
            When I was in my late 30s/early 40s I actually became sort of a magnet for older women. For a few years I had women in their early 50s wanting to spend time with me and talk to me. and the married ones often expressed the same frustration. They would say “why can’t he just take me”. And these were upper-middle class women whose husbands were doctors and other professionals, and who drove high-end sports cars. So in that example, to illustrate the feminization of men, I’m providing an insight into how feminized men have become by talking about a normal degree of playful aggressiveness within the bounds of a healthy sexual relationship. That’s very different from criminal sexual behavior, and using force on a woman who does not want anything to do with you.

          • Mike

            And your second point, I have to say, it is not criminal for a guy to call a woman a bitch to himself if she doesn’t have sex with him. I don’t condone it, and I’m not saying it’s right or nice — it’s likely just an expression of their frustration. I’m sure that women curse men…..OK, I confess, I KNOW that women curse men, and to their faces, because I’ve had it done to me many times. One woman threw a mug at me once.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            No, it’s not criminal; it just represents an attitude that I believe is rather widespread. The fact is that she’s not a bitch because she doesn’t want to have sex; rather, the frustrated man is just mad and feels entitled to something that he doesn’t deserve, and this twisted logic makes him call her a bitch.

            That, in a nutshell is sexual entitlement. Many, and probably most, men feel it to some degree or another. Usually it’s harmless, other than making a guy act like an ass. Other times, it’s the reason why men beat, rape and kill women.

          • Mike

            You’re choosing to see him as “entitled”. A man can be frustrated with not getting something and not be labelled “entitled” — he’s just frustrated.
            Maybe in many cases the women are jerking the men around. That happens, you know. Often. Maybe the woman felt entitled to have her expensive dinner paid for, and he’s pissed about that.

          • enhancedvibes

            Youre just not evaluating the thought process that Tao has explained. Calling a woman a b**ch bc the guy didnt get what he wants IS about entitlement. you cannot rationalize it any other way.

            No one is owed ANYTHING least of all sex merely for being nice or treating someone out. Those that feel that way are self entitled schmucks.

          • Mike

            Schmucks? Fine. Not murderers, or, misogynists. Not a criminal.
            Here’s a good analogy that is related because it’s part of this whole PC thing that you’re a slave to: if you criticize Israel, you are not anti-Semitic.

          • pennyroyal

            get that anti-Semitic ‘red herring’ argument out of here. Please learn some critical thinking skills.

          • Mike

            You’re giving me a headache again. Based upon what you’ve said, I don’t think you know what a red herring is.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            A woman keyed my car once, after I dumped her. It was a weird experience; probably something that some women would applaud her for, but definitely something that made me briefly hyper-vigilant. Nobody’s suggesting that women don’t fly off the handle.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            OK – I’m glad I encouraged you to clarify.

          • enhancedvibes

            Who we are in our daily lives is NOT reflective of who we are or even what we want in the bedroom. You believe A LOT of gendered bullchit.

          • Mike

            This has gotten boring.

          • Mike

            If you have a healthy, integrated personality, then who you are in the bedroom most certainly is a reflection of your core self. Absolutely. If you are damaged and fragmented, no.

          • pennyroyal

            why is this all about you? narcissism! inflated ego. Who care about you in your bedroom. No one. This is NOT ABOUT YOU. You are derailing the discussion.

          • jefe68

            You are aware that if a women says no, that it means no. Right?

          • Mike

            Please.

          • jefe68

            Please? You keep posting volumes of patriarchal BS, such as, some women like it rough. Which is really a personal choice and not some thing to gage others, which is what you’re doing. You say don’t judge men with a feminist ideal, and yet your judging women with a patriarchal one.

            Then all the BS about the feminization of men and boys. Please, you are real piece of work pal.

          • enhancedvibes

            Guess what? Your experiences do NOT negate the real experinces of women! They are telling us the way they live their daily lives and dudes still just dont want to believe it. You are thus perpetuating a culture that makes women wary of all men as part of their self preservation.

          • Mike

            Baby, I know a lot of women. They aren’t living in fear. Sorry you are. You should buy some personal growth books. Or, what is that book? The Secret? Is that the one all the women were talking about a decade ago? It repackages Eastern philosophies for the masses and puts forth the notion that if you think something you become it immediately. You can overcome your fears.

          • enhancedvibes

            I’ll assume most of the men you speak of are white. But you’re correct, a lot of men amd especially white men, are angry that (white) maleness ia no longer the default to which we compare things to or measure things. How long will it take before men learn to share?

          • Mike

            There you’re wrong, and projecting your own feminist rage onto men. The men I know don’t think that male whiteness is a default yardstick. Rather, they understand that men and women are different, they respect both the masculine and the feminine (they really love the feminine), but they simply want to have the freedom to be a guy. And they want the women to feel free to be women. That’s all. Pretty simple. No rage. By contrast………..

          • pennyroyal

            feminist rage is a trope, too. Admit it, you our out of touch. AKA clueless about what you are blathering on about.

          • jefe68

            And I have found them to be completely feminized
            What an absurd comment, beyond the pale of BS.

          • enhancedvibes

            “Completely feminized”

            LOL. Such irony since you clearly lack self awareness. I dont hate to tell you, you are part of the problem.

          • pennyroyal

            do you really think this passes for any kind of critical thinking on the issue? You represent a tiny part of the world. And you try to extrapolate that to all young men at all time. Limited thinking, my man.

          • Mike

            You’re trying to chastise me because I nailed you last night.

          • jefe68

            I don’t think this guy will admit to being wrong. To much invested in being right.

          • Taoist_Crocodile

            I’m not trying to win; just to clarify my thinking on the matter.

          • jefe68

            Yeah, but it seems he’s trying to win.
            In that lies the rub.

          • enhancedvibes

            ” self-reflection is rare among men in general.”

            As is self awareness. Truer words were never spoken. Thank you.

          • pennyroyal

            don’t you realize that the human brain doesn’t fully develop until age 26. You can’t compare a mature man with a very young man. Were were the supports and mentors and parents for this young man? Oh, I forget, it’s not your problem. Wash your hands of him then.
            .

        • enhancedvibes

          Though I think patriarchy is perpetuated by everyone in society, including men, women amd children, it is important to think about why so many men are defensive. Its a handful of things. Men have never before been criticized for the way they think, act and feel with regard to women. This is all very new as our country is becoming more diverse and all younger generations have been enculturated to accept the fact that women have equal rights therefore ppl are more willing to speak out. I engage in a lot of online gender debate and when you do this you see a lot of trends. A LOT of men, in general, believe that the things our society

      • enhancedvibes

        And yet there are 1000s of posts on #yesallwomen saying that harassment from mem is a daily experience. Why are you so hard pressed to deny them their own experiences? Why do you automatically not believe them? This is a question all “not all men” should be asking themselves bc the alternative is that all these men, deep inside, do strongly subscribe.to stereotypes about women. Immediate defensiveness is about you, not what is being said, and that makes YOU part of the problem.

        • Mike

          Harassment. Define harassment. There is a difference between a man looking at a woman when she walks into a coffee shop, and raping and murdering a woman. The inability to distinguish the two is a major problem with you people. It’s so sick. I, and many more men, are increasingly likely to form/join a men’s movement or group. You people have crossed a line of distortion and self-victimization that needs to be stopped, or our children are doomed.

          • jefe68

            Wow, pretty angry yourself, or so it seems.

            “our children are doomed….”
            A tad hyperbolic there Mike.

          • pennyroyal

            you are defending the indefensible.

          • pennyroyal

            this is from Miri, a blogger. I can send links.

            “The type of masculinity that young boys are taught is not compatible with mental health and with ethical behavior. Full stop. We’re fortunate that so relatively few will take it to the lengths that Rodger did, but I don’t know a single man who doesn’t suffer as a direct consequence of it. I know few who have never made others suffer as a direct consequence of it. We need to inoculate boys against this harmful and maladaptive thinking rather than teach it to them.”

          • Mike

            The type of masculinity young boys are taught by WHOM?

          • Mike

            Most of the teaching that is being done is being done by schools, by parents (male and female), and the media. Those are the institutions that teach the boys. What are the mostly female teachers teaching our boys that is so unhealthy? What are the Moms teaching the boys that is so unhealthy? What did your Dad teach your brother that was so unhealthy? What did you and your husband teach your son that was so unhealthy?

          • pennyroyal

            barking up the wrong tree here you old dog

          • Mike

            Gotcha! You can’t even address specifics. I’ve gotcha here. 3 pointer.

          • whoo123

            Here’s an example for you…the wildly popular Grand Theft Auto games: you pick up a hooker, which raises your health rating to 100%; then you kill her and take your money back. The last installment of this game sold 29 million units in 6 weeks.

          • brettearle

            People who play those game are likely pretty sick.

            But they’re not mentally ill, necessarily, to the extent that Rodger obviously was…

          • Mike

            I don’t know anyone personally who owns one. My son has never asked to get it, but if he did I wouldn’t allow it. I don’t know any other parents who would allow it. So I am curious about the profile of person who is buying those games. I wonder if it is really “boys”.

          • pennyroyal

            okay, you’re a psychiatrist then Dr Brettearle? Did you treat him? what is your expertise in forensic psychiatry?? Cause I’ve worked with forensic psychiatrists and they agonize about letting a killer who served his term back into the outside. You wouldn’t want that job. Don’t sleep much at night for worrying.

          • Mike

            OK, so you are referring to the modelling done by the media. The nasty stuff, such as Grand Theft Auto, is counter-balanced by the feminizing modelling going on in the tv shows. BUT, you are completely ignoring that a “boy” can’t own a credit card. So the parents (ie, Mom and/or Dad) purchased it for the kid, or the kid purchased it using the parents’ credit card. So the parents (ie, Mom and Dad) know about the purchase and use of the unhealthy game by their own son. And they are allowing this to go on. They can do something about that. My kids are NOT allowed to use those things. Any parent can prevent that. They also can teach the child values that counter-balance what the child is exposed to. So women have a direct responsibility that is not being exercised — and they are just passively accepting what that lady asserts in that blog post —that all of our boys are being taught unhealthy and destructive attitudes and behaviors. According to your claims and examples, that is.

          • Mike

            I’m also going to put some money down on this claim — that women actually work at the company that produces that game. At every level of management. There is a responsibility that is being thwarted.

          • whoo123

            What is your obsession with trying to blame women??? The game producers’ list includes about 6 names, all male AFAICS….

          • pennyroyal

            because he cannot take any responsibility for what happens to others, women esp. All he cares about is his cosy life and his ability to be a troll here or maybe even a sock puppet.
            What a waste of time he is.

          • Mike

            It’s not an obsession — it’s a clear argument against what she said. I’m not trying to blame women. I’m trying to ILLUSTRATE A POINT. The author was complaining in a vague, general sense that it’s horrible what we’re teaching our boys — we’re causing them to be mentally unhealthy. So my point is that the people that do so much of the teaching of our young boys are women — they have them all day at school, and they represent half of the people at home as parents. So if what she his saying is true, then the people producing the sick mindset in our boys are, as a majority, women. So her comments should be more directed toward the female half of the population — the ones teaching them this sickness.

          • Ty Judkins

            Have you ever actually played GTA? It in no way encourages you to do that. You can kill people in the game, but murdering hookers is not encouraged in any way and it’s not part of the story line. You can kill golfers in GTA, but you can kill anyone in GTA. And there are negative consequences. You’re making it a gender issue for absolutely no reason. Every problem becomes solely about gender with you people.

          • whoo123

            ‘You people’?!! Cracka pleeze!

            I have read posts by male gamers and male game reviewers ruminating over the misogyny of the GTA franchise. It’s a celebration of sexism. For the most part, the female characters are simple eye candy — strippers, prostitutes, etc.

            But as one gamer said, he wouldn’t give up listening to Wagner because he was a Nazi… <>

            All I said was that video games are one of the influences that shape attitudes of impressionable [young] men. Now go barbecue that hooker with your flamethrower!!!

        • Mike

          There’s no problem. A crazy kid killed some people. That’s it. Nothing to do with me or other men. A poor, sick kid killed some people. And his parents tried to prevent it — not because he hated women, but because he was ill.

          • pennyroyal

            Mike, I don’t believe in collective guilt so you don’t have to keep saying it has ‘nothing to do with me.’ But how about you agree to the idea that there is something about how a younger generation men is socialized. I see you have white hair and so do I, maybe you need to look at why many young men are using misogyny to blame young women instead of growing up.

          • Mike

            So many young men? That’s where your argument falls apart. The evidence you people (and the lady on the radio show,a s well as the two guy guests) point to is weird, fringe social websites. Or the fact that “some women” complain that men on anonymous dating sites send angry emails to women who rebuff them. A nasty email from an anonymous person on a dating site hardly constitutes abuse, rape, etc. And I”ve been on some of those date sites, and the women often play games. So the anger likely is justified for many of those men. So putting aside the weirdo fringe website example, and the dating site example, I’m not hearing any evidence that the majority of young men are misogynistic. Yet I OBSERVE the young men I know persnonally, and look at the models that are being given to them on television (on the occasions that I see television at my ex-wife’s house, or a friend’s house) are all extremely castrated and feminized. And the media-constructed models of masculinity are things like “metrosexuals”. So this claim that young men are like this just doesn’t hold up at all. You guuys are looking at the freaky ‘misogyny” sites and acting like they are mainstream. Your view is distorted, and you lack judgement. It would be like looking at a neo-Nazi site and declaring — see, the vast majority of men are neo-Nazis.
            I am prematurely gray, but I am in my late 40s. Also, I don’t have my reading glasses on, so I am making spelling erros.

          • pennyroyal

            that is where you are out of touch. You don’t realize how polarized and virulent some of this stuff is. And how it is reinforced by movies, culture, rap music, peer group, drug culture, etc. etc.
            I know a woman who has PTSD from the online attacks, publishing of her home address, email, phone number, where she works, twitter account. You just don’t know how vile and harmful it is. She’s married!! It’s scary because it is MORE than “a weirdo fringe website”, far more. I know several actually.
            And then there’s the stalkers. Surely you know that a restraining order doesn’t stop someone from murdering you or ruining your life. That’s usually men doing it to women, but sometimes it’s the other way around.

  • Hard truths

    It’s an odd thing. After listening to Chemaly, Futrelle and the other guy, my attitude has completely changed.

    Before, I thought feminism was an utter crock of excrement.

    Now I think it’s a radioactive crock of excrement.

    Long live the manosphere!

    • Taoist_Crocodile

      What good is the manosphere?

      • Guest

        You bit. That’s the whole point of his post. He’s trying to attract people to his blog.

  • Taoist_Crocodile

    All of this discussion of PUAs and PUAHaters and “game” and alphas and betas makes me glad to be finished dating. From the perspective of a happily married man, this fixation on manipulating women to sleep with you looks pathetic and exhausting, not to mention a waste of time.

    From the perspective of a father, this whole thing makes we wonder about the best way to prepare my 2-year-old daughter for all of the disgusting, sweaty creeps out there.

    Not that I’m really worried; she’s going to be far too smart and secure to fall for “game” – just like her mom.

    • Mike

      I don’t even know what a PUA is. And that fact reflects just how distorted is the view of these people talking about this stuff. They are so ensconced in their own little fringe world that they don’t realize that outsiders don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m a Dad also. I’m really not worried about my daughter. At all. The majority of people are pretty normal. These people are basically talking about a damaged fringe. Perhaps they have been personally exposed to that fringe, so they think it’s the normal majority . But it isn’t. Which is why men are speaking out so vociferously on this page.

      • Taoist_Crocodile

        Well, part of the reason I think I’m pretty well-educated on this issue is that someone very close to me was a rape victim. So, I’ve spent more time than most thinking about this issue; enough to realize that rape and sexual assault are much more prevalent than they would seem to be.

        Pick up artists may be a fringe, but men who commit violence against women are not a fringe, because women who experience violence are not a fringe.

        • em

          I’m with you on the general tone of your comment, but the logic in the last paragraph does not quite hold up. A small proportion of men could be committing a large proportion of the rape etc. In fact, I think there’s some research from a prof. at UMass Boston to that effect.

      • jefe68

        The more I read your posts the more it seems to me you really do not get it. One bit.

        • Mike

          Maybe we’re just living in different worlds. All I know is that I used to be where you are — I bought all of the feminist ideology. And then I began to see with my own eyes, and I’m glad I did. As you’ll see if you read this whole thread from the beginning, lots of we men are. Thank God.

          • enhancedvibes

            Your daughter is NOT living in a different world and it is your responsibility as a father to not mislead her about the reality of our culture. Being wary of men is about women’s self preservation and nothing more.

          • Mike

            Baby, you are SO out there. You poor thing. I don’t know who hurt you, but I’m sorry that it happened. Not everyone has the horrible experiences. Crime doesn’t touch every life, and for some of us we haven’t lost the respect and trust of the other sex.

          • pennyroyal

            Babyboy YOU are so way out there with your pity. You sanctimonious twi. Crime doesn’t lead to a loss of trust in all men. Can’t you do some critical thinking?

          • pennyroyal

            well, your male god is an arch misogynist according to your bible. Funny how he made the world so women always served men and obeyed their lord and master in human form.
            That is, if there is a god, or not just another delusion.

          • whoo123

            Bible-waving has been used to justify all sorts of atrocities including slavery. In more than one passage it tells slaves to obey their masters with ‘fear and trembling’ the Catholic Church used to brand their slaves…go figure.

    • jefe68

      I have a 23 year old. Start as early as you can.
      I’ve already had to deal with several abusive boyfriends, There are too many of sick boys out there as well as ones who do not understand the meaning of the word “no”.

      • whoo123

        My daughter also had an abusive BF in high school. The figures are appalling…

        • jefe68

          Well she at least had the good sense to get out fast, and she also had great friends who protected and supported her, both male and female. I was thousands of miles away and it was very frustrating not to be able to help her. The abuse was more verbal than violent. However it was intense and she was hurt by it, a lot.

          I’m just not getting all this “manly” stuff, it’s as if some of these guys think they are Humphrey Bogart, or the characters he played in films. Very strange.

      • Taoist_Crocodile

        I’ve got a little while before I have to worry about it, but I’ve got one of those man-shaped punching bags, so we’re going to be practicing gouging eyes and smashing testicles pretty early on.

    • Jonnie

      Maybe you and she will luck out and she’ll turn out to be a lesbian. Then both if you can have minimal interaction with men, at least when it comes to dating and mating.

      • pennyroyal

        that’s uncalled for and vile.

        • Jonnie

          What, and calling all men “disgusting, sweaty creeps” isn’t? Seems like your indignation would be better directed to the poster I was replying to and not to me. I was just pointing out that if this daughter the father is so worried about happened to turn out to be lesbian then his concern would be addressed. If not, while then they she will have to make her way in human primate society and find her own modus operandi when it comes to men if she wishes to successfully reproduce.

  • Bill98

    Congressman Tim Murphy is pushing legislation that will address the real problems that events such as this demonstrate. He wants to “lower the standard by which seriously mentally ill people may be forced into treatment” (http://www.npr.org/2014/05/30/317274857/rep-murphy-aims-for-mental-health-bill-to-pass-before-next-shooting).

    Is it too much to hope that OP will perform a real public service, and devote an hour to the true cause of this tragedy, and the legislation that might help to prevent another? Or, will the sole contribution to this discussion made by this program, and many of those commenting here, be to try to use this to advance their radical feminist agenda? These people have blamed misogyny, pornography, rape culture, that best friend to the unicorn known as “Patriarchy”, and just about every radfem talking point, with the possible exception of the mythical “wage gap”.

    Perhaps now that the rest of the nation is pursuing the real issues involved here, OP, and its listeners, will care to join in?

  • Bill98

    Please try posting such a comment on a men’s rights board, and you will find out very quickly how wrong you are.

    Unfortunately, post such a comment on a general news site, and non-MHRAs are the ones who will defend the female pedophiles, and tell the guy how lucky he was.

    MHRAs are fighting to get society to recognize that the harm done to a boy, when sexually abused by a woman, is just as harmful as it is to a girl when abused by a man.

    Visit avoiceformen.com, and find out what MHRA’s truly believe. You clearly have no clue.

    • enhancedvibes

      LMAO. We know what that hateful site peddles. Enough to know you’ll never reach your MRM goals bc you blame the wrong culprit for the ills of man.

      Chils abuse is taken seriously regardless of gender. Guess you never read the news.

      • Bill98

        So, you vilify AVfM without having ever visited the site. Ah, the certainty of a closed mind.

        At least you’re consistent. You also seem to have criticized my comment without reading it. Had you done so, you would see that I fault the comments made on general news sites, concerning stories about male victims of statutory rape. So, yeah, clearly I read the news, and the comments. And, in agreeing with the original commenter, child abuse is NOT taken as seriously, when the victim is male. Look at the sentences given to female statutory rapists, versus male ones.
        Oh, wait, but you would know that if you read the news…hmm. You truly are living proof of a “foolish consistency”.

  • HonestDebate1

    My hope would be that a father who murders his children would be drawn and quartered. I would say they represent a life form low enough to walk under a snakes belly wearing a top hat.

    There can be only one “lowest”.

  • enhancedvibes

    Why do guys keep claiming on this thread that men cannot prevent themselves from sexualy attacking women? !?! And its all men saying this. You all dont seem to think highly of your own sex.

    Utter rubbish.

  • Mike

    Nice to hear a voice of reason amidst all of the distorted, superficial arguments being made in this thread:

    “As a specialist working with patients who have neurologically based mental health problems, I was dismayed by Hadley Freeman’s offhand attitude to Elliot Rodger’s mental health history (Elliot Rodger was a misogynist – but is that all he was?, 27 May). Freeman is wrong to take Rodger’s extreme statements about women at face value and depict these as evidence of both individual and societal misogyny.

    Rodger has been described as having suffered from Asperger’s syndrome, a neurodevelopmental disorder characterised by impaired social behaviour, often with rigidly held distorted ideas regarding interpersonal relationships. People with Asperger’s, who frequently have a long history of frustration and bewilderment in their relationships, can form pathologically negative ideas from these experiences. Low self-esteem, social inadequacy and loneliness form a cauldron for angry feelings in the absence of the ability to process these feelings in a healthy way.

    This is a far more complex picture than Freeman’s assumption of a culturally induced misogyny. We need to understand people who suffer from mental health issues, not use them as a vehicle for a diatribe.”

    (Dr. Annie Hickox writing in the London Guardian)

    • Jonnie

      But such a tact wouldn’t fit the Feminist agenda.

    • Geary

      The problem is, he was receiving help for his psychological issues. He went to several psychiatrists, was prescribed medicine he refused to take, and had been to a psychologist several times in the weeks leading up to the incident.

  • Ansem Seeker

    Julia Gillard had far much more going against her than what they white wash. Gillard unseated the former prime minister, Kevin Rudd, who had not yet served out his first term in office. Voters didn’t expect it, and they didn’t care for it.

    In Australia we were very against the Carbon tax, When confronted on the issue Gillard was very evasive on the matter and when finally pressured on the matter she ASSURED the Australian people there WOULD BE NO CARBON TAX. Which in the hands of Tony Abbott, the current opposition at the time and his amplifiers became The Great Lie. There were broken promises, a budget surplus promised for years and never delivered, the emissions trading scheme that became a “tax” that only differed from the Carbon tax in name. She backflipped on policies, had her PR completely mismanaged leaving the opposition opportunity after opportunity to diminish her authority, not because she was a woman but on her PERFORMANCE.

    I will not deny that there were some who judged Julia solely on her gender, being the first woman Prime Minister but when back room discussions are how you enter power, Keep your life private from the public eye in such a high level of authority leaving the Australian people no opportunity to meet the real Julia, The most notable policy your administration is know for is called The Great Lie with a Ruthless Opposition and a hung government. It is hard to tell how differently things may have gone if Gillard was actually elected and had to campaign for the position but to say she lost the seat of Prime Minister was because she was the first woman Prime Minister is far from the truth.

    I know this was off topic Julia losing power is a poor example of gender prejudice with many more factors coming into play.

    • Mike

      Exactly.

  • Thinkfreeer

    Thank you, John, for being honest in your depiction of the Santa Barbara murders, when you introduced the topic and said, “A young killer stabbed and shot six people.” Many people are depicting this as “another mass shooting” which is incorrect, and probably exposes a predisposition to being anti gun. While there has been much discussion of the killer’s mental state and his view of women, how is it there is such a strong focus on his hatred of women when his first three murders were men?

    • brettearle

      Why isn’t it another mass shooting–as the result of a blind rampage?

      The killed killed out of irrational forms of Mental Illness, first inspired by his hatred of women. But, ultimately, the killer did not kill because of his hatred for women. He killed because his Mental Illness became overwhelming.

      That having been said, how is this NOT another Mass Shooting. Especially one that should be a prime example for stricter gun laws?

      I do not know what you are talking about.

      • pennyroyal

        misogyny kills…. and no one can say he was mentally ill, not even a psychiatrist. That is a cop out. Say he was insane and then go back to sleep or continue your denial. You seem to want to ignore his statements which are perfectly clear.

        • brettearle

          Well, I guess the nearly entire professions of psychiatry and clinical psychology, respectively, would agree with you, right?

          The moment–the very moment that were to happen–and I would surely retract my observations.

          In the meantime, go ahead and identify all the practitioners who agree with you so far.

          You could likely count them on one hand. And the overwhelming majority, of the very few who would agree with you, would all be practitioners who are also Radical Feminists.

          Let me know when your Farce of a search is completed.

          • pennyroyal

            need to make a link here with what you call ‘radical feminists’, aka, critical thinking, citations.

        • brettearle

          Well, I guess your search is not yet complete, now is it?

        • brettearle
      • Thinkfreeer

        It’s not another mass shooting by definition. Look it up at the FBI.

        • brettearle

          Well, we are so elated and overjoyed to know that hundreds of thousands of people, by now, disagree with your alleged FBI-definition claim.

          • Thinkfreeer

            And you support this opinion with what facts? Oh, I forgot, you probably subscribe to the Homer Simpson school. He said facts are meaningless. You can prove anything with facts.

            Fact – the FBI defines mass shooting murder as four or more others killed by gun in one event.

            And I am done responding to you.

          • brettearle

            We’re pleased that you blindly have the last word.

            Ecstatic, in fact.

      • Thinkfreeer

        California already has more strict gun laws than the US standard. You reveal your misguided hatred of an inanimate object.

        • brettearle

          You just proved my point.

          An utter nut case got guns in a state that is strict?

          It’s frightening….Just think of what might be happening, what has happened, and what will be happening in other states.

          And your pop psychology analysis of hatred is so wastefully bizarre that it belongs in another galaxy–hopefully, quite a far distance from our own.

          • Thinkfreeer

            His first 3 victims were men and he killed them with a knife. Why are you so focused on guns? Could it be that you are mentally unbalanced, too?

          • brettearle

            Your provocative question is over the top.

            Consider yourself Flagged.

    • pennyroyal

      how is it that we don’t question why so many of these mass killers are male???

      • Jonnie

        What’s to question, most would agree in this point. There are female mass murderers too, but most kill by stealth and usually for practical reasons like financial gain. However, there are the occasional violent man-hating serial murderers like that Wormer chick in Florida.

        • pennyroyal

          fixated on blaming women, aren’t we. Look up some statistics, man, and learn something.

          • Jonnie

            Blaming women for what…I’ve lost you?

      • brettearle
        • pennyroyal

          wow, thanks for finding that. Course, as new findings are made and more people are interviewed, new information will be found. 20-20 hindsight is wonderful. Still I will have to reconsider my thinking.
          In any case you are wrong in your pathological hatred of radical feminists. What about women with a mind of their own and a questioning attitude threatens you so much???
          .

          • brettearle

            I do NOT have pathological hatred for Radical Feminists.

            What I have is resentment towards ignorance–ANYwhere and EVERYwhere it exists.

            I have been with the same strong-willed woman–an avowed Feminist– for over 20 years.

            You don’t….know….what….you…are….
            ……talking…about.

            Once, again, you are spewing out utter crap.

            And you are making yourself to look like a Fool.

            However, you are only a Half-Fool.

            Unless you are being sarcastic, it appears that you have conceded some of your misperceptions.

          • pennyroyal

            the pathology is all yours.
            Fool?? that’s a joke.

          • Godzilla the Intellectual

            Anywhere and everywhere ignorance exists EXCEPT within your own mind…

            LOL

    • Geary

      1. Only six people *died*, three of them being male stabbing victims who were his roommates and a friend of them, but a mass shooting requires that four people are shot by the person(s) carrying out the shooting. Ergo, by the FBI’s definition of a ‘mass shooting’, Elliot Rodger’s spree qualifies.

      2. His first three murders were men because those were his roommates and a friend of theirs. It’s possible he thought they would have tried to stop him, so he pre-emptively killed them before they could try. His goal, however, was a specific sorority that he intended to shoot up; however, he neglected to actually secure any method of getting inside, and changed his plan to shooting random people before killing himself when nobody would let a creepy, armed man into a women-only residence.

  • Thinkfreeer

    I know from first hand experience that some women exhibit misandry. And most were feminists. Yet, obviously this is not the norm. But, it seems that there is an accusation that misogyny is both pervasive and universal among men, i.e. normal. This is patently false.

    Discussions leading to understanding and reducing any kind of fear or hatred are valuable. They are powerful emotions which sometimes motivate people to heinous acts. Not that there was any discussion of this, but legislation or rules restricting fear or hatred are useless and mostly unenforceable. I hope that discussion does not lead to that.

    • whoo123

      Uhhhh, lead to what? Laws against hate crimes?

      • Thinkfreeer

        Fear and hatred are thoughts and emotions. We can only have laws which restrict or punish the actions which result, if any.

        If I hate cats, there’s not a damn thing anyone can do about it. If I kick a cat, you can punish me.

  • whoo123

    Misogyny cuts across all socio-economic lines:

    “We are in the midst of a realignment in the global economy, a new machine age in which technology is disrupting nearly every industry in the world. And who are the hot young stars of this great realignment? People like 23-year-old Evan Spiegel, the Stanford-educated, former Kappa Sigma social chair who founded Snapchat, an ephemeral messaging platform that may be worth at least $3 billion.

    Gawker’s ValleyWag obtained emails from Spiegel’s fraternity days circa 2009, a not-so-distant past in which his primary emphasis seemed to be getting sorority girls drunk so they would sleep with him and his fraternity brothers. Women are referred to as “bitches” and “sororisluts,” considered objects to be “peed on,” and one missive features “shooting lasers at fat chicks.””

    • Jonnie

      Any mention of scat?

      • Mike

        That whole trend of calling women “b _ _ _ _ _ s” is derived from inner-city black male culture. And they have managed to mainstream it through the music culture. Back in……about 2004, I returned to grad school and befriended a black guy from the inner city. He used that word constantly to refer to women. For him it was a synonym for “women”. But this guy was working on his third masters degree, and, from what I could see, was a very good Dad to his son, and certainly hadn’t raped or murdered anyone. So, while I disagree and would never condone using that language to refer to a woman, it was not a catalyst for criminal or abusive behavior. I met his long-term girlfriend many times, and they were great together.

        • Mike

          And, yes, the behaviors you talk about — wanting to get women drunk in order to sleep with them, and wanting to pee on them — that is beyond comprehension to me. It’s a fact that buys want to get laid in college (I found that the girls did too). Maybe, for a guy like him, the only possibility to find a woman who would do that with him was to get them drunk. That’s pathetic, I agree. So in this particular example of horrible motives and values, I’m with you. BUT, that doesn’t mean we should berate boys for wanting to have sex with girls in college. Going for it in a normal, healthy way — as long as it’s mutual. Most guys are able to find a girlfriend and establish a healthy love relationship. And most men and women these days end up having flings during the times they are not in such a healthy relationship. The desire for that, and the motive to do that, is not bad or abnormal. The wanting to do it in a way that is abusive sure is. BUT, these kids have parents and other societal institutions that work to prevent that. Sometimes it fails, in the case of the geek kid.

          • Mike

            But, while you have brought up a disturbing and negative aspect of our culture, that wasn’t what caused this shooting. The kid was MENTALLY ILL. This likely would have happened regardless of whether the kid was exposed to some stupid frat guy culture.

        • whoo123

          According to Wikipedia :

          As a derogatory term for women, it has been in use since the fourteenth or fifteenth century.

          You have said that misogyny isn’t pervasive in our society. Women keep saying their lives are touched by it on a regular basis…and you keep insisting it isn’t true.

          • Mike

            But other than that one black guy, I haven’t heard another male of any age use that term as a synonym for “woman”. And that was in ’04/05. Terrible term. But not in the least bit pervasive. Does your husband or son do that? Your male friends?

          • whoo123

            So….because all the men around me don’t call me a bitch, that proves that misogyny isn’t prevalent?!

          • Mike

            I’m sorry, but you’re just not that bright. This is getting silly. You give me a definition of the word “bitch”, and its etymology, which simply states how old the word is, and somehow you present that as proof that the word is used constantly as a SYNONYM for “woman”. The definition and etymology of the word in no way proves that it is pervasively used today by most men in our culture in routine conversation as a synonym for the word “woman”. Yet, you don’t even have any PERSONAL anecdotes or even data to show that it is widely used in our culture in that way. You’re not reasoning logically, and for those of us who are logical, it’s very frustrating to talk with people like you.

          • whoo123

            Try to follow along: that was a reply to the claim that the word ‘bitch’ arose from inner city black male culture in the last decade.

            I assure you that I am a good deal ‘brighter’ than someone who claims women’s experiences aren’t valid because he personally knows some women.

            I am finished with you. You trivialize women who try to tell you what life is like for them in a misogynistic patriarchal society. How nice for you that you can speak for women better than they can.

            EOD

          • Mike

            I didn’t say that the word “bitch” arose from inner city black male culture in the last decade.
            What I said was that the use of the word “bitch” as a synonym for “woman” arose during that time.
            The classical, historical definition of bitch is not “female” or “woman”. The classical, historical definition of “bitch” is a certain TYPE of woman — -a malicious woman.

    • brettearle
  • http://www.biggerfatterpolitics.blogspot.com BiggerFatterPolitics

    What the media is not reporting in ALL these mass killings is that the killers were on prescription psych meds. The media also won’t report that we have far less gun owners but more mass killings.

    Click HereMedical Industry Steals More Than the Bankers and Kill More Than the Nazi Holocaust

    We don’t need gun control as much as we need doctor control. Gun owners kill 50K per year while doctors kill over 1 MILLION. Can anyone say priority?

    Had this kid gotten proper medical treatment he would not have hated women and he would not have been a killer.

    • Geary

      “Everybody! Look at my blog! It’s totally relevant, I swear! …Where did everybody go?”

  • Yep

    Author Chuck Wendig’s post says it all – more like this please!

    Not All Men, But Still Too Many Men by Chuck Wendig:
    http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2014/05/25/not-all-men-but-still-too-many-men/

    • whoo123

      Nice!

  • OnPointComments

    Rich Lowry at National Review gets it right:

    It takes a nearly impenetrable obtuseness to conclude that the most salient thing to know about University of California, Santa Barbara killer Elliot Rodger is that he was a white male who didn’t like women.

    …it is obvious that Rodger’s final YouTube video and his 140-page manifesto promising to exact vengeance upon the women who spurned him are the ravings of a deranged person; as such, it is the derangement itself, not the content of the ravings, that is most important. Nonetheless, some commentators have plumbed his lunacy for meaning as if they were reading The Bell Jar.

    The reaction to the UCSB killings is sadly typical. Our political and media culture has proven impervious to serious discussion of severe mental illness and how it is treated in this country, despite repeated, heartbreaking occasions for it. Usually, the diversion is gun control. Since Rodger stabbed his first victims, and didn’t use an “assault rifle” but a handgun to kill the rest, the gun debate didn’t take off. Instead, another hobbyhorse took up all the space.
    http://www.nationalreview.com/node/379106/print

    • Mike

      Ignore whoo123 — I tried to debate her earlier, and it was all smoke and mirrors and diversions and misunderstandings and a fundamental inability to discuss the substance of the argument — as you see below. Great quote.

  • Coastghost

    New case: two girls stab another girl to death in Wisconsin.
    As I observed last week, “misogyny” is an equal opportunity employer, even when female-on-female violence is perpetrated with knives or blunt objects instead of firearms.
    Conflating the new Wisconsin case with the Coronado case, you have three females suspected of dispatching four female victims: but do we hear ANY outcry against “feminine misogyny”?
    Pretty quiet for a public outcry . . . .