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Race And Racism In America

What do we see in the LA Clippers’ Donald Sterling and ragin’ rancher Cliven Bundy?

In this photo taken on Friday, Oct. 25, 2013, Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling, center, and V. Stiviano, right, watch the Clippers play the Sacramento Kings during the first half of an NBA basketball game, in Los Angeles. The NBA is investigating a report of an audio recording in which a man purported to be Sterling makes racist remarks while speaking to his Stiviano. (AP)

In this photo taken on Friday, Oct. 25, 2013, Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling, center, and V. Stiviano, right, watch the Clippers play the Sacramento Kings during the first half of an NBA basketball game, in Los Angeles. The NBA is investigating a report of an audio recording in which a man purported to be Sterling makes racist remarks while speaking to his Stiviano. (AP)

First it was ragin’ rancher Cliven Bundy, with his assertion that African-Americans were better off as cotton-picking slaves.  Then it got stranger.  The billionaire owner of the L.A. Clippers, Donald Sterling – whose NBA franchise depends on the talents of a whole lot of black men – apparently taped telling his girlfriend, courtside, that he did not want her seen with black men.  That it bothered him.  That that’s the culture we live in and so it goes.  Is that the culture we live in?  This hour On Point:  race and racism in America now.  Where do we stand?

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Jeffrey Goldberg, columnist at Bloomberg View. (@JeffreyGoldberg)

Kevin Blackistone, sports writer, professor of journalism at the University of Maryland and panelist on ESPN’s “Around the Horn.” (@ProfBlackistone)

David Rice, professor and chair of the psychology department at Morehouse College.

From Tom’s Reading List

Los Angeles Times: Clippers owner Donald Sterling in firestorm over alleged racist remarks — “In an audio recording, released by celebrity gossip site TMZ, a person identified as Sterling argues with his girlfriend, criticizing her for posting a picture of herself on Instagram posing with Lakers legend Magic Johnson.”

The Guardian: The real tragedy of Donald Sterling’s racism: it took this long for us to notice – “While a handful of us in the media excoriated Sterling and the NBA in 2009 when Sterling settled the lawsuit by agreeing to pay $2.73m following allegations he refused to rent apartments to Hispanics, blacks and families with children, the story didn’t resonate – despite it being the largest housing discrimination settlement in Justice Department history. ”

The Atlantic: Cliven Bundy Wants to Tell You All About ‘the Negro’ – “This is unsurprising. White supremacy is one of the most dominant forces in the history of American politics. In a democracy, it would be silly to expect it to go unexpressed. Thus anyone with a sense of American history should be equally unsurprised to discover that rugged individualist Cliven Bundy is the bearer of some very interesting theories:”

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  • HonestDebate1

    Are you kidding me?

    • jefe68

      Don’t listen. Better yet give your keyboard a rest.

  • brettearle

    What do we see?

    We see a searing attitude of ugliness, that reflects an historical precedent in America, of Bias, Cruelty, and Ignorance.

    And the people who are in denial, about this Fact of Life in the United States–now and in the past–don’t have the courage to own up to the sickness that still remains in our society.

    • AnneDH

      Meanwhile, we’re so proud of our ‘melting pot’.

      • brettearle

        `Right on”, as they used to say.

        [I wish we were up there in Vermont, with you. You're quite fortunate. We've spent time in Putney and Woodstock.]

        • AnneDH

          Vermont is indeed a wonderful place to live (and the whitest state, as I understand it).

          We’re known for respecting our neighbors’ privacy, so well-known people come to live here (like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who lived about 15 miles from where I grew up).

          • brettearle

            Cavendish…?

          • AnneDH

            Yes

          • Ray in VT

            Last I saw VT was .1% whiter than Maine, but the state is much less white than when I was a kid. I can only recall 2 kids in elementary school who would not have been thought of as white.

    • 1Brett1

      Good point in recognizing an underlying lack of courage regarding racism that still lingers, much of which can be quite casual.

      I am amazed at how much people will strain not to condemn racist comments made by folks in the public eye; and, if they do reference those racist remarks, how dismissive they are about such remarks being “irrelevant” to a pertinent discussion.

      Even on this forum it is seen, from time to time, from using a derogatory term for blacks and saying it is okay because it is spelled phonetically/uses the slang spelling (or that it is okay because blacks themselves still use it in certain circles); criticizing others for condemning recent comments made by Cliven Bundy, another example (and insinuating Bundy is some kind of victim); defending Clippers’ owner Sterling’s remarks (and claiming Sterling’s term for blacks is scientific, or that his remarks are hearsay or have been taken out of context); to posting videos of black people portrayed in unflattering ways (as if this is either funny or representative of black people as a whole). Among those who would comment in such ways, there is never a condemnation, something that reveals lack of awareness; or, even worse, an attempt to bait or incite people by intentionally using racially-charged language or content.

      • brettearle

        Good points, well said.

        Denial is a big, big thing, here, I think–even when we examine `ambivalent’ comments or suggestive comments or manipulative comments…that underneath, reveal pure racial bigotry.

        People are so often in Denial, about their Dark Side, with regard to Bigotry (not to mention their Dark Side impulses about any number of other Things).

        But, by their ignorance, we shall know them–even, or especially, when there is a cover-up.

        Welcome back, by the way. Try not to be a stranger.

        Just the other day, we were extolling `1Brett1′s virtues…..

        Taking the Devil’s Advocate for the final moment, here–with regard to public statements
        –what was your opinion of Senator Biden’s comments, in the 2008 campaign, when he was asked to evaluate Senator Obama?

        [This is the 3rd time I've tried to post this. 3rd time's the....]

        • 1Brett1

          Thanks, brettearle.

          To comment on your final point: words do matter; language matters. People should both talk the talk and walk the walk, as it were. Politicians should always consider what they are about to say and how that might be perceived, and should have the presence of mind to consider such matters isn’t a matter of pandering to any PC god either, as much as many conservatives may dismiss it as such.

      • hennorama

        1Brett1 — Long time no read. Welcome back.

        • 1Brett1

          Hello, hennorama! This is my busy season. I looked in as I had a “free” day. I wouldn’t say that I’m “back” just checking in from time to time.

          In a real sense, nothing changes with the usual suspects. They are careful not to condemn overtly racist remarks and deflect from those remarks by criticizing those who would condemn overtly racist remarks (or by making some false equivalency association to overtly racist remarks). They still continue to post videos of some extreme view by a black person as some oblique way of stereotyping black people. They continue to make remarks that very much mirror Bundy’s and Sterling’s views, although they have the gift of stating their opinions in a more intelligent way, yet the sentiments are similar.

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 — thank you for your response.

            Well written, Indeed.

            BTW, I gave you a virtual tip o’ the hat a couple of days ago:

            “my recollection about 1Brett1′s [lexicography] was correct, except that there are two volumes of “The HonestDebate1′s glossary of translated Greggspeak phrases.”

  • John Cedar

    America needs to be more like the rest of the world, which is not racist.

    Last night on Family Guy, they made fun of the racism that blacks exhibit.
    Its obvious that Macfarlane turned 40, as Churchill’s axiom manifests itself.

    • Steve_in_Vermont

      But we are not like “the rest of the world”. This is reflected in our politics, health care, immigration, gun laws, etc. And I’m not sure I want to be like that because I’d have to decide what “the rest of the world” means for me. Like France? South America? China? Japan? Confusing isn’t it?

    • TFRX

      Pfft.

      And they made more fun of the racism blacks suffer. Miss much of the show?

      America is still a place where rich white racists have to do a lot of crap before their racism becomes a threat to their “good name”.

      America is still a place where deputies and sheriffs are overwhelmingly white, so people like me don’t have to worry about a black cop clubbing my taillamp into a million pieces and saying “Looks like a code violation”.

      The power imbalance between white racists and black racists is something you might want to check up on.

  • Human2013

    Why do we expect anything different from an 80 year old man. I man born and raised before the civil rights movement. Before most of us learned that “race” is a myth and there is no connection between intellect and skin color.
    As I have said before, when your clergy, teachers, politicians, parents, peers and scientists (eugenics) tell you that your race is superior to all others, it becomes part of your DNA.
    Let us be patient and these thoughts will die off like Strom Thurmond and his ilk.

    • Human2013

      And the media is curious about his attraction to a “mixed race” woman.

      Well someone please explain why a leader in the KKK movement was arrested for sleeping with a black male prostitute.

      “In the course of their investigation, authorities also learned the stunning details of Miller’s arrest a year earlier. Raleigh police officers had caught Miller in the back seat of a vehicle, in mid-act with a black male prostitute masquerading as a woman.”

      http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/04/24/frazier_glenn_miller_was_arrested_with_black_male_prostitute.html

      • Human2013

        Oh, the hypocrisy……..

      • JGC

        Don’t forget Thomas Jefferson.

    • brettearle

      My comments, below, underscore your hatred of ignorance.

      But not all clergy, teachers, politicians, parents and peers feel this way.

      It is likely a good idea to qualify your statement, for the record–even if people understood by inference, what you meant.

      After all, in the case of scientists, you added an effective qualification.

      I do not agree with you, however, about how such Ignorance will fall away with Time.

      From my point of view, I think it’s best to concede that hatred and bias is endemic in the Human Soul–just as Love for one’s fellow man is, as well.

      The Human Evolution of the spirit, I think, cannot evolve fully to meet up with your expectations.

      When looking at the history of mankind–including numerous examples of Genocide–why would we think, otherwise?

      • Human2013

        I don’t doubt that there will always be human division, but I don’t think it will based on race or ethnicity in the coming centuries. We will be divided by economic class which is the real root of racism.

        You should read Nina Jablonski’s “Living Color: The biological and social meaning of skin color”
        Very interesting chapter on the future “look” of humans.

        And of course I don’t believe that ALL clergy, teachers and parents perpetuated white superiority.

        • brettearle

          Thanks for the Reference.

          But I’m more cynical than you are.

          While I absolutely agree that Economic Outrage can call people to ignorant Hatred and to aggressive Action, it is the phenomenon of, `The Other’ that has plagued Mankind in a disgusting way, I think…..more than anything else

          • Human2013

            But the “other” philosophy is very much based on geographic separation and economic classes.
            We can get to most places on the planet in less than a day — maybe less than an hour with future technology.

          • brettearle

            My view is that you.may not be taking into account–`in a more personable way’ of scrutiny–the following:

            Many people see `The Other’ in:

            –the sound of your voice
            –the color of your skin
            –the clothes you wear
            –the features of your face
            –your gait
            –your profession
            –your academic training
            –your weight
            –the company you keep
            –your political views….

            ……etc, etc

            Indeed, I consider the Gridlock of DC to be a fair example of, `The Other’, gone somewhat out of control.

            My view is broader. But it may not be the consensus definition of the Idiom.

          • Human2013

            I understand your broader view — thanks for sharing.

          • brettearle

            Thank you…

            Are you a psychologist?

            Please accept an apology if I’m asking a question that is too personal.

            [But, of course, a question doesn't mean that it deserves an answer.]

          • Human2013

            No, i’m just an observing human trying to figure things out.

    • keruffle

      So you’re prejudiced against old people, but not blacks?

      • Human2013

        Huh?

  • Coastghost

    It’s hardly surprising Americans have not settled their views when, as below with Human2013′s comment, simultaneously the concept of “race” is demonized or invalidated and then just as instantly “race” is taken up to argue against perceived superiority or for perceived inferiority. (Amazingly, not even scientific consensus disabuses us of our readiness to conduct debate with imprecise data, errant argument, or intellectual blindness, failings which commonly beset all parties to the discussion.)
    Americans do not address issues of race nearly as commonly as we evade them: this approach frees us from the discomfort of having to squirm unduly over other unexamined notions such as “equality”, “guilt”, “superiority”, “inferiority”, or “history”.

    • Human2013

      Please don’t confuse my comments. I understand the complexity of invoking race in Affirmative Action while denouncing it as myth.
      We still must recognize the past and the economic and intellectual growth that was stolen from a sizable percentage of our citizenry.

    • 1Brett1

      Me thinks you’re squirming a bit yourself by tap dancing all around issues regarding race. On the one hand, you intimate ambiguity exists about race existing at all, then are critical of those who would recognize that racial disparity still exists.

      Also, what exactly do you mean in your last sentence? In what way have concepts of “equality,” “guilt,” “superiority,” “inferiority,” “intelligence,” “culture,” and “history” gone unexamined?

      • Coastghost

        Don’t ask me to account for Americans’ preference for having things both ways: the issues are all real, that is, they recur in public discourse with distressing frequency, but usually whatever terms are used do nothing to advance the debate and discussion.
        I hold that all of the terms I listed above are victims of “self-evidence”: we prefer to think we agree on what our terms mean and that we all mean the same thing in using these terms, whereas far too much discrepancy exists in the specific ways that specific populations wield these specific terms in debate and discourse. The debate goes nowhere because the terms of the debate remain unexamined, and no consensus on their use exists.

        • brettearle

          Your nuances may be valid.

          But, unwittingly, you may be giving the Bigots, among us, the License to use words in manipulative ways–that will give those culprits increased plausible deniability.

          When it sort of walks like a duck, it can still
          be a duck.

        • 1Brett1

          “Don’t ask me to account for Americans’ preference for having things both ways…”

          Sorry for the confusion; I wasn’t, only asking you to account for your preference in your comment for wanting things both ways.

          And, as to your last paragraph, if your only point was one of lack of agreement regarding such terms, that the semantical aspects of this point of discussion need clarification, then I would see your attempt to be a might skittish. So, the main problem of any discussion about race/racial issues is that there is disagreement about what words like “equality,” “guilt,” “superiority,” “inferiority,” “intelligence,” “culture,” and “history” mean? Is that what you see as paramount? I would agree with a general notion that people should be in agreement of terms used in a discussion, but is this the overarching problem with respect to racial divides?

          • Coastghost

            I’m willing to concede that settling the semantic disparities or non-equivalences I cite are only preliminary to any fruitful discussion.

  • Human2013
    • Coastghost

      More media mendacity: Jablonski’s TED talk is titled in the URL as “nina jablonski breaks the illusion of skin color”, which is not at all the same thing as the title given the talk on the same page, the odious “skin color is an illusion” formula: from EVERYTHING Jablonski is saying, skin color in itself is NO illusion (else it would continue to play no role in appropriation of vitamin D or in protection from UVA radiation): what is specifically illusory about skin color is the surmise that melanin plays some constituent role in intelligence, which biological and neurological sciences seem to discount across the board.

  • Fiscally_Responsible

    Sterling’s comments were reprehensible. He should be called on the carpet for his racist comments as is taking place in and by the media. At the same time, racists such as Al Sharpton should be called onto the carpet by those same critics when he makes racist accusations (e.g. Tawana Brawley) and should be asked to relinquish his business/political positions as is being said about Sterling. Also, Sterling speaks only for himself and his comments should not be blown out of proportion in terms of extrapolating his viewpoints onto society at large and the unending need for societal fixes such as racial preferences on college admission, etc.

    • New_Clear_Waste

      Weren’t you paying ANY attention? Al Sharpton WAS called on the carpet for Tawana Brawley, and he never did anything like that again.

      • Fiscally_Responsible

        What planet are you living on? Did members of the minority community call him on the carpet, or just white “racists”? And he is still doing it. Al Sharpton never misses an opportunity for a photo op or to try and play the race card.

        • New_Clear_Waste

          No he doesn’t. You sound like just another persecuted white man. Pleeeez!

  • StilllHere

    Is this the new standard, two “incidents” necessitates mindless navel-gazing?

    Until it’s verified to be Sterling, how do we know it wasn’t a person of color? Sounds to me like On Point is pulling another Tucson. Will you guys ever learn?

    I heard Sterling was getting an NAACP lifetime award next month.

    Does Obama rspcet him?

    • TFRX

      ….and the “questions”, a la Neal Cavuto, begin.

    • nj_v2

      Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

    • anamaria23

      The award and former ones have been rescinded. A sports commentator claiming to know Sterling well describes him as a known racist going way back.

  • OnPointComments

    The remarks, which have been denounced and condemned in unequivocal terms, expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country. But a man should not be judged by those snippets that have run in an endless loop on television. While not justifying or excusing the comments, it would be a mistake to denounce the speaker as a crank or a demagogue. If we condemn the statement without understanding its roots, we will widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races. These resentments are rooted in legitimate concerns — dismissing them as misguided or racist only widens the racial divide and increases misunderstanding.

    Cliven Bundy? Donald Sterling? No. Candidate Obama speaking about the racist and anti-Semitic rants of his long-time pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright. One important difference between the remarks of Bundy, Sterling, and Wright is that no one sat and listened to Bundy and Sterling make their remarks on a weekly basis for twenty years.

    Let the double standard commence.

    • anamaria23

      Were the remarks made on a weekly basis or isolated incidences picked up? The rants Of Rev Wright were illuminated for weeks on end until Barack Obama made a public statement. I do not see the double standard.

  • TFRX

    Gawd, all the white trolls are here already.

    So much for this hour.

    • Fiscally_Responsible

      Everyone is condemning the remarks that Sterling made. At the same time, many of us perceive an imbalance when others make similarly racist kinds of comments and that the mainstream media gives people like Jeremiah Wright and Al Sharpton a pass. We believe that the issue should be presented in a balanced fashion. Apparently, you don’t.

      • TFRX

        Keep projecting that crap onto me.

        • Fiscally_Responsible

          If the shoe fits, wear it. You simply name called instead of admitting that the objections raised were legitimate. Those of us on the other side agreed that Sterling’s comments were totally inappropriate. Liberals give people like Sharpton a pass rather than being objective in condemning his racist comments.

          • TFRX

            Keep on your fascination with equivocating away the power imbalance.

            Meanwhile, I’m getting all my black cop friends to “secure” my suburban voting district and ask white people “where you think you goin’, son?”

          • Fiscally_Responsible

            Al Sharpton is a pretty powerful spokesman and representative, even if his power is unofficial. As such, he should be held responsible for his comments by media as well as the people he speaks for. Otherwise, comments that he makes that are inherently racist reduce his credibility and reduce the viability of those who continue to support him as their spokesman.

    • jefe68

      Just sit back and enjoy the show as they twist their nickers into knots.

      • hennorama

        jefe68 — when President Obama was asked about this issue, he responded thusly:

        “When ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, you don’t really have to do anything, you just let them talk. That’s what happened here,” the President said.

        Obama also said Sterling’s alleged comments are an example of how “the United States continues to wrestle with the legacy of race and slavery and segregation.”

        “That’s still there, the vestiges of discrimination. We’ve made enormous strides, but you’re going to continue to see this percolate up every so often,” Obama said in Malaysia.

        In my view, there’s really nothing further to add, pending the results of the NBA’s investigation.

        Quote source:
        http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/27/us/nba-team-owner-alleged-racist-remarks/

        • brettearle

          [A [g] much later]

          • hennorama

            brettealr — TYFYR.

            Giggle whenever you wish, sir. There’s no accounting for humor.

          • brettearle

            You forgot the, `e’.

            With a quota of 2, I’ve got one left….

          • hennorama

            berttreale — thank you for you [Yikes! I meant "yuro", not "you."] response.

          • brettearle

            You’ve got 1 left.

            And with that comment of mine, in the above line, I’m in arrears by 1.

          • hennorama

            brettearle — thank you for the favor of your reply.

            “With a quota of 2, I’ve got one left….” Hmmm. Does this mean you’ve got one right, as part of a pair?

            Now you add that you’re “in arrears by 1,” which implies the answer to the question posed above is “No.”

            I remain mused as ever, both a- and be-, in combination with fused, both con- and dif-.

          • brettearle

            “You’re out of order, he’s out of order, this whole forum is out of Order!”

          • brettearle

            The Favor of a Reply would put you in serious violation.

          • hennorama

            “Commander, signal the following in all languages and in all frequencies: ‘We surrender.’”

            – [Captain Jean-Luc] Picard to Lt.Cmdr Troi in ST:TNG “Encounter At Farpoint”

          • hennorama

            brettearle — I believe “[g]ee willikers” is appropriate here.

        • brettearle

          Still think it’s amazing–from Rodney King to George Zimmerman to Now–that Sterling could have survived this long…..without being publicly outed.

          Although, I think the President’s comments might still be premature.

          Even though it’s fairly clear–to me by now
          – what Sterling is all about, the President’s comments would look expedient, if we find that the Tapes were doctored to increase the belief in the Owner’s bigotry.

    • brettearle

      You expect them to go away even if we’re talking about Henry Miller?

  • JGC

    BREAKING NEWS: Donald Sterling denies he is a racist, but thoroughly stands behind all his sexist comments.

  • creaker

    The only difference between racism now and racism 60 years ago is that it’s less acceptable to display it publicly. And I hope it stays that way. You can’t change how people think, but you can influence what is considered acceptable behavior. And that requires calling out what you think is unacceptable.

    • TFRX

      Yep. The dogwhistle is still there–as put by Lee Atwater.

    • Ray in VT

      I think that it is also less virulent and violent than it was at times 60 years ago.

      • creaker

        Agreed – and I think that has a lot to do with where the boundaries are drawn.

  • James in LA

    Tom,

    If Sterling was a random no-name klan member, nobody would think twice of his comments, or use them to start the cliched “honest dialogue about race”. Why do we care about this man and make a larger issue about his awful comments? He surely is the extreme minority.

    Is it that America doesn’t like racists, or we just don’t like powerful racists?

    • Ray in VT

      I think that a large measure of it is that he is super-rich, has a history of issues on the matter and owns a sports franchise. If he was just some guy saying this stuff at the local bar, then it wouldn’t have the appeal, because, generally speaking, the public at large doesn’t care about what Joe Schmo says.

      • TFRX

        Uh, isn’t Joe Schmo the screen name of Cliven Bundy?

        Look at it: Some jagoff drinking and yapping at a sports bar is one thing, and it seems that ol’ Ranchy McRuggedo is…much the same thing: How particularly unique among welfare cheat old white westerners is he?

        PS Best Craiglist ad of the month:

        • TFRX

          as seen below:

          • James in California

            TV networks made Bundy “powerful” by putting him on tv non-stop for a week. It was only after he had gained a following that his racist remarks came out, and were then paid attention to. If Bundy made the same comments two weeks ago, nobody would be using him as a segway into race relation. He would be regarded like a lunatic (as he should be)

          • TFRX

            “TV networks” is a term which may stand furter definition in this case.

            It’s no surprise to liberals that when one scratches a Ranchy McRuggedo, who says the same thing about “no Feds to enforce Federal law” a la the South after it lost the Civil War, you get a proto-Klansman.

        • Ray in VT

          Well, I guess that one difference between Joe Schmo and Bundy is that a group and network hasn’t decided that he is to be a symbol of the little guy standing up against the big, bad government.

    • hellokitty0580

      I concur with Ray in VT below. But also, because this man is in the public eye and a leader (partially because of his wealth), what he says matters. And I do believe that if Joe Schmo were some type of leader within his community it may not make national news, but there would be people who would not be pleased and I’m sure he would be shunned.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    That out-of-touch !!bookworm, Justice John Roberts, sticks his head out the ground every 6 months or so, and then acts as if the law is not supposed to exist in the real world

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Please discuss ‘sovereign citizen’ and posse comitatus.

  • keruffle

    “Hatement”
    Def: A formal or casual comment of a derogatory or bigoted nature. Common in post-racial America.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Folks from different cultures and backgrounds have different takes on life. Is that racism? Nope. It’s just difference and it — drives the universe.

    • Kinfolk

      I get it now… sarcasm! Nice!

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    Conservative media culture (such as FoxNews and talk radio) has seemingly become more comfortable of late playing the race card under the Obama administration.

    Every so often it blows up in their faces, because the most privileged and powerful in our Society playin’ VICTIMs runs headlong into reality eventually.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Does it make a difference if the “offending” individual is wealthy? Almost no one complains about poor people making their sociological observations. After all, does anyone really care what the dudes in the ‘hood have to say about the rest of us?

  • StilllHere

    Basically all we’ve established so far is that lib whiners are envious.

    • Ray in VT

      Envious of what? Being able to cheat the government for 20 years and get celebrated by Fox News?

      • jefe68

        One has to wonder if some of the right wingers posting here suffer from delusions of grander.
        This chap, well he’s a troll.

    • TFRX

      “We”?

      As Daffy Duck would say, ‘Pronoun trouble’.

      That “can’t we all agree” crap from righties is a dead giveaway.

    • creaker

      Whining is complaining to no one in particular without contributing anything to the conversation at hand – which is what you’re doing.

      • jefe68

        It’s how that troll rolls.

    • nj_v2

      Zzzzzzzzzzzz…

  • creaker

    With Sterling comments, it’s interesting how in the media racism completely trumped the misogyny in the statements he made to his girlfriend. It sounded abusive.

    • Human2013

      Have mistresses been elevated to girlfriends?

  • Rigoberto R Escobar

    America is where racism was invented and any one who looks at where wealth versus poverty or power versus incarceration to see racism.

    • Chris Green

      “America is where racism was invented”

      How well did you do in European History courses in college Mr. Escobar?

      I completely disagree. Racism was not invented in America, racism existed way before America became colonized by European whites. Racism is a social mindset, and it was carried over to America than Europeans.

      How could racism have been invented in America when Africans were being captured from their Native lands and brought over to America?

      • Rigoberto R Escobar

        The slaves captured in Africa were captured in tribal warfare, Africa or the belief of a unified African people did not exist as we see it today, and America was the first country to define slavery based on race. Anyone could be relegated to slavery in the Roman Empire if captured in a battle. Europeans may have/had a low opinion of Africans or Eurasians but that is bigotry not racism. And I got an A-.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I agree w. KB.

    If US military men and women walked around with their “covers” on backwards and their uniforms inside out would anyone protest that act of defiance? Signed.. US Navy Veteran, Vietnam era

    • New_Clear_Waste

      Ah – OLD white guy. Has no problem with bigotry. Mystery solved.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    I will find the girl that will do I what I want!
    –Donald Sterling

    Well, good luck. I’ve never been able to find one. Maybe we should head off to Estonia or Slovenia. But I’d bet against a “happy” outcome.

    • New_Clear_Waste

      With the attitude you’re displaying today, it’s no news flash that you’ve never found anyone to do what you want. I hope you never do, that would be nasty.

      • nj_v2

        ^ Sarcasm impaired

  • skelly74

    Old curmudgeons…grand daddy’s behaving badly. Seems that life is slipping away and what do they have left to offer?

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      A healthy estate tax payment. Hoober Doober

    • StilllHere

      The girls surrounding him appear to want something.

      • nj_v2

        Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

      • skelly74

        Nobody feels bad for the old curmudge? This girl is taking him to task and exercising her own “Darwin tax” before the old man heads to the glue factory. Where are his attorneys? The guy is a shark who has finally stayed too long in the tank.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Capitalism made Donald Sterling. And Kevin Blackistone. And Tom Ashbrook. And Barack Obama. And me. The prosecution rests.

    • New_Clear_Waste

      Never fails, when someone’s being mistreated, someone who’s not being mistreated pipes up with his eyes closed to say he doesn’t see any problem. DUH!

    • Chris Green

      I will be the first person to cast my vote for you HLB for “blind man of the year award”. The defense rests.

  • Coastghost

    The clips you played for us suggest plainly that a race dispute in this instance serves as the foundation for girlfriend grief: of course, our devoted media are ready to shear the former aspect altogether from the latter . . . .

  • Ashley Wickham

    I’m concerned about the fact that this man also appears to be verbally assaulting his girlfriend.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      She sounds tough enough to take care of herself. HD

      • hellokitty0580

        So that makes it okay for him to be a misogynist?

        • Coastghost

          If Stirling is a misogynist, why has Stiviano seen fit to keep ample company with him?

          • hellokitty0580

            That’s her own psychological problem. It doesn’t diminish his misogyny.

          • TFRX

            Really reaching here, aintcha?

          • Coastghost

            Not really: my working assumption is that Stiviano herself made these soundbites available, until or unless we learn that Stirling is advertising for an agreeable girlfriend.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      His “girl”.

    • StilllHere

      On Point should do a show on what gold-diggers have to put up with.

      • nj_v2

        Zzzzz…

    • Kinfolk

      Could the Bentley or Ferrari she drives dull the pain? What about the vacations or cash stipend?

  • J__o__h__n

    Maybe he can buy the Red Skins.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Or the Browns.

      • TFRX

        Weren’t the Cleveland Browns were named by Paul Brown, after himself?

        (The old St. Louis Browns were “brown stockings”, BTW.)

    • TFRX

      Hmmm. Part of me says that Sterling’s been pencilled in to Dan Snyder’s “sell to, if I sell” list.

  • M S

    “We do not evaluate what is right or wrong.” Who is this “we” he refers to?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    1st amendment to the Constitution — freedom of association. The defense rests.

    • Rigoberto R Escobar

      The First Amendment also protects criticism

    • TFRX

      First rule of capitalism: How badly does the NBA need Don Sterling as an owner?

      If Donald Sterling showed the slightest bit of class after the reveal, this would not have blown up as it did. Of course, the “slightest bit of class” seems to be way in his rearview mirror at this time.

    • Scott B

      You are Constitutionally guaranteed the right to make as ass out of yourself, be it Bundy, Silver, or you in that statement. The NBA has the right not to associate itself with racists, especially in a business relationship. He’s not spouting 9/11 conspiracy wackiness, he’s spouting racism.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Is it a smart thing to do: commenting on the ignorance of the ignorant?

    • Kinfolk

      …& if one is asked a specific question on the ignorance of the ignorant? Isn’t one free to answer the question? Perhaps I misunderstood your post?

  • hennorama

    Mr. Sterling may not be the person whose voice is heard on this recording, but he has not denied it.

    When one looks at Mr. Sterling’s public appearances, in which the very married Mr. Sterling is accompanied by his girlfriend, would anyone be surprised if he exhibited other hypocritical and outrageous behavior in private?

    • StilllHere

      Pathetic. It’s amazing how low your standards for proving guilt can go.

      • hennorama

        StilllHere — thank you for your response.

        Perhaps you have an issue with reading comprehension.

        Nowhere in my comment is there any mention of “proof,” and there are significant caveats, most especially the first eleven words.

        Thanks again for your response.

      • Kinfolk

        Did you not see Magic Johnson’s interview over the weekend. He knows Donald Sterling personally. He heard the recording. There is no doubt in his mind that the recorded voice is Donald Sterling’s. Add that to Sterling’s negative history on race. This standard doesn’t seem so low to me. This is a message board, after all, and not a courtroom…

  • twenty_niner

    Old white dude making racist comments. This is news?

    • Rigoberto R Escobar

      Slow week

    • Kinfolk

      Of course it’s news. The Supreme Court just ruled that Michigan voters’ 2006 decision to ban affirmative action in the state’s higher education system passed constitutional muster. Chief Justice Roberts argued that affirmative action, rather than actual racism, makes minorities feel they don’t ‘belong here’. I believe that Bundy’s & Sterling’s comments contradict the ‘colorblindness’ doctrine. As an African American vet, that contradiction is news to me…

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    He’s not going to be stripped of his ownership of the Clips. MONEY rules in our country. See the previous episode of On Point with Tom Ashbrook.

    • Chris Green

      You make an excellent point HLB. However, the NBA has successfully pressured a team to remove power from an owner before. I believe an owner lost his team due to repeated sexual harassment charges. Thus, it’s actually very possible.

    • TFRX

      Really?

      He’s done a lot to help others un-own franchises:

      The vote that killed the Seattle SuperSonics in 2008 was 28-2. When David Stern decided he wanted Sacramento to have a shot at keeping its team, he got it done despite threats from the Maloofs and it being a hard sell overall.

      This is important: when Stern has wanted owners out — from George Shinn to the Maloofs — he worked the situations expertly and got the job done.

      American Needle vs. the NFL, the NBA argued in an amicus briefing that the league is not 30 distinct businesses for competitive purposes, but rather one centralized business competing against all other entertainment businesses. If NBA owners really believe that, they should have no problem heading back to court to argue they have the right to force Sterling out.

      http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/4/27/5658024/donald-sterling-nba-owners-adam-silver-punishment

  • M S

    This guy doesn’t love, he owns. He only loves what he owns.

  • Boston_mom

    I don’t find this surprising, and that is what makes me so sad and angry. I think it’s more mainstream than we admit, and the whole culture of unapologetic loathing toward lower socioeconomic groups has extended to similar groups of people being overt with their racist attitudes. I always hope that when creeps like this are outed maybe he will be prevented from hurting people in such a widespread way. It’s truly disgusting…

  • Mangojam

    As Gloria Steinem says, the white male power stranglehold is in its last gasp. They won’t go quietly, but they will go, eventually. Just other examples of their sputtering protest and rage at the rise of people of color, women, and so on.

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      I sure hope so. I’m tired of holding on with a death grip. HD

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Free, multicolored, and 21. Nothing stopping any of the members of the Clippers from buying out their own contracts and moving on. Free to choose: It’s the American way.

  • hellokitty0580

    Race is still a problem in this country. Is anyone surprised? Should we be surprised? There are still so many ignorant people out there and people ignorant of the institutionalized racism that plagues this country and the world. Just look at the Affirmative Action debates of last week. It’s better, but you know what? We have a long way to go and now we’re getting to the hard part. It’s easy to prevent lynching, it’s hard to change the way people think and whom they associate themselves with. We’re getting into the nitty gritty and the gray areas that are not so obvious to solve. How many people never considered themselves racists until we had a black man run for president and win? How many people had to stop and seriously question what they believed in their heart of hearts? Look at our Supreme Court and the hacking away of voting right laws. Stop and frisk. Stand your ground. Let’s be real here. We have a long way to go.

  • Coastghost

    Why not join this discussion with consideration of the data that 60% of NBA players are personally bankrupt or face severe financial difficulty within five years of professional retirement?

    • Chris Green

      Maybe because it has absolutely noting to do with the subject of racism and how an owner once again showed off his racist views?

      • StilllHere

        That seems premature, no?

      • Coastghost

        To the extent that the data bear upon perceptions of race, the data are utterly relevant, just as are data that 78% of NFL players are personally bankrupt or face severe financial difficulty within two years of professional retirement.
        Granted, race may not be the constituent that simple conspicuous consumption is, but I doubt that the American popular mind separates the two criteria too assiduously.

    • TFRX

      Your “innocent” fascination with repeating this nugget is boring.

      • Coastghost

        Would you therefore contend that the data hold no explanatory power whatsoever?

  • TFRX

    Wanna bet that somewhere close to Bundy is an apologist saying “It took us 40 years to get him to say ‘Negro’ or ‘black boy’ “?

    (H/T Bess Truman re: Harry and the euphemism “manure”.)

    • HonestDebate1

      And now we have something really unique according to Democrat hierarchy. Who ever heard of a black person who is articulate, clean and has no negro dialect unless he wants to pander? Or even a half black person?

      And thanks for reminding me about the Democrat Truman:

      “I think one man is just as good as another so long as he’s not a n*gger or a Chinaman. Uncle Will says that the Lord made a White man from dust, a n*gger from mud, then He threw up what was left and it came down a Chinaman. He does hate Chinese and Japs. So do I. It is race prejudice, I guess. But I am strongly of the opinion Negroes ought to be in Africa, Yellow men in Asia and White men in Europe and America.”

      -Harry Truman (1911) in a letter to his future wife Bess

      • TFRX

        Out of arrows, you’re now thorwing…pine cones I guess.

        Go home, troll.

        • HonestDebate1

          You may not be a racist but you hang with them, you elect them, you support them. Clean your own house and we can join hands and sing “Feelings”. Until then, you are just another enabler of hate.

          • TFRX

            Go home, rural white male who can’t see the forest for the trees in front of him.

            Scoreboard, bub.

            Those racists are the ones your side needs. (Wow, it’s really paid off to make that an AutoText.)

          • HonestDebate1

            I am home.

          • J__o__h__n

            Everyone who votes Democrat must be a racist based on a letter from 1911.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, not all all but the left has no room to talk. Having a show on the private conversations of elderly Democrats like Sterling that could result in his losing his team is not reasonable in my view. Add him to the list with Rush Limbaugh losing hid NFL bid for something he never said. Or the CEO of Mozilla. Or any number of private citizens attacked with charges of racism and homophobia. It’s sick.

          • J__o__h__n

            More freedom of speech concerns when it is the CEO or owner but if it were the employee I’m sure freedom of contract would trump that right.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m not sure I follow.

          • Ray in VT

            Who cares about Rush? He just thought that McNabb got a pass because he was black, and don’t get him started on basketball. Just the TBA. Thug Basketball Association, and the NFL just looks like the Cripps versus the Bloods.

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you see a problem with any of that? Let me guess, you think it’s racist. Alrighty then.

          • Ray in VT

            That you don’t is sick, but maybe that’s just par for the course among people in your circle.

          • nj_v2

            ^ Just when one thought the inanity could get thicker.

      • nj_v2

        ^ Pathetic, ignorant, intellectually dishonest, vacuous, bullcr*p, partisan trolling.

        Truman evolved. DIsHonestMisDebator Greggg continues to devolve. He’s a parody of himslelf.

        http://www.americanheritage.com/content/conversion-harry-truman?page=show

        “Truman’s reading in history and in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights had led him to question the assumptions on which he was raised. He acted as he did not because he believed in the social equality of the races, not because he was “anti-South,” but because he took solemnly the oath he had sworn to sustain the Constitution.

        As a border-state Democrat Truman carried within him the conflicts that divided not only Missouri but the country. He had been nurtured on the valor of Robert E. Lee, the iniquity of the Union raiders, the melancholia of the Lost Cause. Only someone who understood himself to be a Southerner could have felt such empathy for the traditions of the South. Yet he also had a schoolboy’s love of the history not of a section but of a nation, took pride in having been a doughboy in the Army of the United States of America, and viewed the Constitution as sacred text. That nationalist theme, a minor one when he was a child, was the one that prevailed in the end. As a consequence Truman permanently altered the character of Southern politics. For the first time since Reconstruction, he made civil rights a proper concern for the national government, and for the first time ever the Democratic party became the main protagonist for the rights of blacks. The South, and the nation, would never be the same again.”

        (excerpt)

      • Ray in VT

        How’s that TEA Party backed school re-segregation plan going down there in Raleigh? It’s much more current events than a letter from 1911. If that’s what Truman was saying, then just imagine what the Dixiecrats from places like Caroliney were saying.

  • setaspell

    Was not this conversation a private event between a man and his girlfriend? Regardless of whether his comments were racist or not, why are we even discussing this in public. There are racist everywhere. He did not get on a soap box like Bundy.

    • Chris Green

      Setaspell,

      I agree with racists are everywhere, but it’s important to continue having these conversations so accountability can be held.

      It shows though much progress has been made, it’s clear that racist/ignorant mindsets are still being spread and passed down.

      It seems he was clearly angry and anxious, but he released thoughts and beliefs which were held before the incident.

      So, I agree that people have the right to say what they want, but there is no freedom nor control of the consequences.

      Without discussions about this nor accountability, it’s possible to suggest people would be allowed to go back to overt racism.

  • Cliff Casavant

    Was bundy being a racist or was it a failed attempt to slander the government. Personally I feel he was saying that our gov has failed.

    • TFRX

      “Our government has failed” is only something that comes out of rugged individualists when Democrats are in the White House.

      Funny, that.

      • Cliff Casavant

        I am not sure what you are pointing the problem at but there is a problem in Washington. And currently a dem is at the helm so you are correct.

  • Scott B

    We’ll continue to hear this type of thing as long as we have things like the SCOTUS upholding views that somehow racism doesn’t exist after only a few decades of supposed racial equality following the over three centuries of slavery and apartheid we had in this country; and allowing states to re-enact Jim Crow laws.

    Silver is a prime example of entitlement the ultra-wealthy, feeling that they have a right to control those around him, and disregard rules he feels shouldn’t apply to him, be it legal or societal.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    As it says in the Old Testament: “If you ain’t got any money, no one cares what you think.”

    Now, do a show on a poor southern ignorant clodhopper. Really? No one cares, huh?

    • TFRX

      Poor southern ignorant clodhopper?

      I think we got 3 1/2 out of 4.

      How rich, really rich, is Bundy? Is he JR Ewing rich? Is he the kind of guy who goes to the bank or the state capital and doesn’t need an introduction to the levers of power?

      • Jill122

        Difficult to know his cash position. We know he owns 160+ acres and 900 head of cattle. That’s his net worth.

  • Gary Welch

    Stipulated: The man is pond scum.

    However, I cant’ quite believe I’m saying this, but – the Snowden/NSA has made me far more reactive to violations of privacy. Bundy knew he was being recorded, and has no valid complaint about being quoted. It would seem that Sterling was not aware. I’d be upset if any conversation I had (no matter how innocuous) was recorded without my knowledge and put out there. Further, it seems that the girlfriend did know and structured her arguments to put her in the best light.

    Going to take a hot shower now…

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Free at last
    Free at last
    My agent bought out my contract
    And I’m free at last.
    –Any player on the LA Clippers

    If any of them care that much.

    • TFRX

      That’s bordering on “You can always get a job somewhere else” talk.

      Which, if I remember, is carved in granite over the office building of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

  • Boston_mom

    YES. What Prof. Rice said.

  • J__o__h__n

    The right wing was so quick to defend the software CEO who donated to Prop 8 but has appeared to distance themselves rather quickly from the racist freeloading rancher.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Once HRH Hillary is president, we’ll be post-woman, too.

    Thank goodness. Then we can go on to some other difference or distinction.

  • Jim

    If anyone is stupid to believe in this story, then you do not know anything about the nba. The sport is DYING! And they pull a publicity stunt like this. Shame on them!

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      I thought it was baseball that was dying. GO Arsenal. HD

      • Jim

        Baseball will never die as long as America stays solvent. Hello, it is a national past time. At least Baseball has unbiased “ref”

    • Jim

      If you do not believe me, explain why his mistrss is black? You think guys like me care about the color of a hot chick?

  • New_Clear_Waste

    When President Obama was elected there was a sudden surge in interest in libertarianism – the belief that a person should not have to obey the government – now that the government is run by “one of them.” There was a surge in membership in militias and in gun sales. This is a shrinking minority of Americans, but it’s still a tenacious and eventually violent minority, egged on by vested interests like the NRA and pandering politicians on the right.

  • AliceOtter33

    Did Sterling’s girlfriend leak this audio (and more power to her, if she did!)?

    It sounds staged, like some audio captured by some undercover sting operation.

    This is just another case of a wealthy white elder getting blindsided by new-fangled technology’s power to bring his chickens home to roost. It should be archived in the library of congress.

    • StilllHere

      He’ll probably still make money on the Clippers if he’s forced to sell, so what chickens are you talking about?

      • AliceOtter33

        The relative value of the team sounds debatable.
        If nothing else, the man’s “legacy” is irrevocably damaged and he’s no spring rooster.

        • StilllHere

          He’s not a politician, he’s probably not concerned about manufacturing some legacy. He does seem to like the ladies though, and they seem to like him.

    • hennorama

      AliceOtter33 — the statement released by the Clippers, contains this sentence:

      “We do know that the woman on the tape — who we believe released it to TMZ — is the defendant in a lawsuit brought by the Sterling family alleging that she embezzled more than $1.8 million, who told Mr. Sterling that she would “get even.”

      Explanation: [according to several reports,] Mr. Sterling’s girlfriend is being sued by “the Sterling family” (read: Mrs. Sterling) over $1.8 million in gifts she was given by Mr. Sterling.

      • AliceOtter33

        Thanks – somehow missed that angle.

        • hennorama

          AliceOtter33 — you’re most certainly welcome.

  • Joanne Brown

    Is racism still a problem? Absolutely. Look at the segregation in many cities — Milwaukee and Madison, Wisconsin are prime examples — and the growing inequality in achievement scores related to poverty. Reading the comments in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel will make your stomach churn.

    • TFRX

      (Is that the one locals call the Urinal?)

    • StilllHere

      Isn’t Milwaukee an economic disaster area? When did it last have a non-Democrat mayor? The Peoples Republic of Madison? Again, what’s the local politics been like?

      • TFRX

        Wow.

        The CavutoMarks keep piling up.

      • ExcellentNews

        It is an economic disaster area, like most other large industrial areas from where the oligarchy exported high-wage jobs to slave labor dictatorships under the watchful eye of the Republican party corporate shills and banker pals.

        • StilllHere

          Gotcha, unskilled labor due to local Democrat incompetence. Thanks.

          • Ray in VT

            Is that who you blame for your ignorance and incompetence? Take some personal responsibility, geez.

          • StilllHere

            Why getting so personal? I must of touched a nerve. Sorry if by unskilled you thought I meant you, but maybe it’s accurate.

          • Ray in VT

            Nope. I would have to care what you thought for you to touch a nerve. I just think that you’re generally an obnoxious pissant, whose shallow insults betray an incredible lack of anything of substance to contribute.

          • StilllHere

            LOL, I appreciate you taking your valuable time to tell me that you don’t care! You’re a joke.

          • Ray in VT

            Any time. I do my best to try to help the intellectually disadvantaged.

          • StilllHere

            Telling me over and over again that you don’t care says more about your intellectual disadvantage than anyone else’s.

          • Ray in VT

            Yes. I’m disadvantaged because it shows just how much I care about those less fortunate than myself. I’m trying to overcome it though.

          • StilllHere

            Again my apologies for your lack of skill, I’m sure your intellectual disadvantage has nothing to do with it.

      • Joanne Brown

        Milwaukee is not an economic disaster area. Scott Walker would like you to think it is, and did his best to make it so when he was the county executive (during which time he ran for governor rather than working as county executive) and continues to work at that as governor. Like many large northern cities, Milwaukee lost major manufacturing through offshoring. The former manufacturing space has slowly but surely been rehabilitated (some of the land was quite toxic, of course) and some is now being reused. Until Walker took office as governor, Milwaukee was to have been home to the manufacture of high speed train cars. Walker broke the contract with Talgo Manufacturing, so the state lost jobs and faces claims from Talgo totalling over $100 million. http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/talgo-seeks-659-million-from-state-for-abandoned-high-speed-rail-line-b99137348z1-231015571.html

        It is an uphill battle for Milwaukee, yes, in part because of surrounding suburbs that are very white and opposed to regional solutions. But the city holds on and has gained population in the last 10 years, which is unusual. Look at places like the Third Ward and you’ll find a wonderful vibrant place.

        • StilllHere

          So the mayor and city council get no responsibility? Just the former county executive who served for a couple years.

          High speed rail. What a joke! How much does Amtrak make on the Milwaukee-Chicago line?

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Aide: Mr. President, there is a racist in Los Angeles.
    Obama: Launch the drone. We’ll rain on his parade. Now watch this putt.
    Aide: Aye aye, Skipper.

  • Jill122

    The people who live in the real world have not believed for a very long time, maybe one minute after Obama was elected, that we are post-racial.

    No truth in it whatsoever. 51% of the people in this country voted for Obama. You forgetting Mittens’ 47%??? How many of those 47% are poor and middle class and voted against their own economic interests because he’s black??? Sure there are other Kulture Klashes that keep them voting republican.

    Which is more important? The Kulture Klashes or the fact that Obama is black? I personally haven’t seen so much racism since the 1960s. The racists generally know not to use the “n” word, they know that the word “racist” is bad. That’s about all they know. Every other stereotype is employed. Think about it! “inner city”, “drug dealers”, “welfare queens” — you’re reasonable. What do those words mean to you?

    I’m on a message board with republicans every day. I can tell you for sure, each of them paints of picture of black people in their eyes.

  • Jim

    C’mon slavery? Please. This is a publicity hoax! Created by the nba!

  • Scott B

    Bundy believes in the “sovereign citizen” movement, which originally began post-civil war in an effort to get Union soldiers out the south so that apartheid could be established. It’s part of the alternative history and agenda the “states’ rights” people push, including the view that slaves were, somehow, better off under slavery.

    Bundy doesn’t know which end us up, because he waves the US flag, espousing the rights he feels the US Constitution gives him to pick and choose what laws he has to obey, or not, but in the same breath says he doesn’t recognize the US government.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Yep. The Clippers owner is another Bull Connor. We have made no progress since then. How tragic. Oh, the humanity!

    What a revoltin’ development this is.
    –Chester A. Riley, The Life of Riley

    • ExcellentNews

      Mr. Sterling comments are more hilarious than racist. Just one look at the picture, and you know what’s happening. The gold digger girlfriend is getting it from someone (s) younger and better endowed. LOL !!!

      • Jill122

        Nooooo — that’s what he is accusing her of, it’s not necessarily what is happening.

        He said people were notifying him of the pix she was posting. I suspect that embarrassed the hell out of him. And that’s what he was expressing, jealousy and humiliation.

  • hennorama

    Mr. Sterling’s “I give it (money) to them” comment is hilarious, as it ignores the fact that the Clippers players earn what they are paid.

    Their compensation is not a “gift.”

    • TFRX

      That’s the accepted phrasing from CEOs everywhere. But that’s another show.

      • Jill122

        Boy did you hit the nail on the head. That one sentence tells us everything we need to know about the state of mind of the wealthy versus the rest of us.

      • hennorama

        TFRX — no doubt we will get some fool chiming in that Mr. Sterling’s “actions included giving gazillions to black players and by extension black communities.”

        Actually, that already happened yesterday:

        http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/04/25/nathan-deal-ukraine-obama-japan#comment-1358432497

    • StilllHere

      You mean like CEO pay.

    • brettearle

      He is, what we can now clearly proclaim, is a

      Vulgarian.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Who deserves his pay in America more than an NBA bencher? Unless it’s an MLB pitcher.

  • brettearle

    She had help with her comments?

    Please…..

    I don’t understand California, he says.

    Huh?

    • hennorama

      brettearle — this speculation is interesting.

      And the California reference would be better if the speaker said “Southern California” or “LA” or “Hollywood,” as it seems to refer to the use of media in litigation.

      • brettearle

        Whose speculation? Mine or his?

        And have I reached my quota yet?

        Or does my question, just above, mean I have now made my quota….Sir?

        • hennorama

          brettearle — thank you for your response.

          To clarify, “this speculation” refers to the speaker who uttered the words you quoted, i.e., “She had help with her comments?”

          Must I answer other questions?

          Was this helpful?

          Quotas have been deemed illegal by the SCOTUS, have they not?

          Thank you again?

          • brettearle

            What do you make of his comment?

          • hennorama

            brettearle — You talkin’ to me? You talkin’ to me? You talkin’ to me?

            I’m standing here; you make the move. You make the move. It’s your move…

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Yes, the Clipper payroll moves to my community and suddenly the average wealth here doubles. Those poor, young, underpaid, overworked basketball players. Tragic, really.
    Signed.. Vietnam-era Draftee/Veteran

  • Markus6

    Every time some dope says something racist we go over exactly the same stuff – it’s so boring.

    There are still racists in this country. How shocking. It’s a bad thing – more shock. There must be something, somewhere that’s new here.

    Maybe it’s cathartic that some otherwise strong people need to get so upset over what a dope says. Or maybe, they’ve just been well coached to say the right thing to the media.

    Either way, this discussion whether accurate or not, is always the same.

    • TFRX

      Yet another “underrepresented” white guy heard from. Quel surprise.

  • brettearle

    The shower comment was over-the-top.

    • Jill122

      You understand that he was talking about a lawsuit brought by Elgin Baylor against Donald Sterling? Baylor made the allegation in his suit.

      • brettearle

        Whether it’s true or not, it’s still an over-the-top comment to mention.

        And if it’s only an unproven allegation, it’s even more over-the-top.

        • Jill122

          I don’t understand why. It’s relevant to his treatment of his players and reminiscent of days of yore. Missing the sensitivity gene. And yet, his girlfriend is admittedly half black half Latina.

    • brettearle

      And, if it’s true, it’s even more over the top, than the comment.

  • StilllHere

    This isn’t about racism, it’s about the unwritten-code of gold-diggers being violated.

    • TFRX

      Another “underrepresented” white guy heard from. Quel surprise.

      • StilllHere

        I’m not white, but I know you’re ignorant.

      • James in California

        It was a joke. Lighten up

        • TFRX

          Ah, the old “I see by someone taking exception, that (other poster) was kidding” defense.

          Yeah, funny how that’s the first sheild put up by those who “punch down”.

    • nj_v2

      Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…

  • ExcellentNews

    Bundy is a fitting hero for the simple souls bought by the Koch Brothers, Rupert Murdoch and their Wall Street pals. Many people do not have the mental capacity for more than “guns and religion”.

    Yet, they vote, and the oligarchy knows exactly how to purchase their votes on the CHEAP. Yeah, cut college scholarships for your own kids so that the Paris Hiltons of this world can go shopping…

    Which why we have people like Bundy out there. Never mind he has not paid his $1,000,000 dues for using public land for personal profit. Never mind he wanted to put women and children in front of the firing line. Just wrap him in the flag, and tally the votes for an inheritance tax cut.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Free to Choose: including the freedom to turn off the television set and do something else.

    • Scott B

      Yeah, because ignoring unjust situations makes all the bad things go way.

    • New_Clear_Waste

      So why don’t you turn off your computer, you old white bigot troll?

  • StilllHere

    Why was the NAACP going to present him with a lifetime award?

    • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

      Contributions to basketball. HD

    • Jill122

      Because he gives 3 – 4K tickets to every Clippers’ home game to the local LA chapter of the NAACP. That means poor people of all colors get to attend the games.

      It also means that the LOCAL chapter was giving the award. Not National.

      • StilllHere

        So we’re talking about maybe $200,000 per game for a 40+ home game season.

        • TFRX

          Remathify your numbers: I really don’t think he’s giving away $50 tickets in that number. The face value doesn’t represent his loss.

          And there’s the tax deduction.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — that gets a [Vote up] based on “Remathify” alone. Well done.

          • StilllHere

            Excuse me if I don’t trust your judgment generally since you seem to think you can judge race by written word.

          • TFRX

            I guess asking you to “refigure” your numbers presupposed that you would have “figured” them in the first place.

            Did you burn out your math skillz doing your taxes?

          • StilllHere

            A simple visit to StubHub will enlighten you then, at least in this department; I’m not sure where you could go for the rest of your shortfalls.

          • Jill122

            Tax deduction — he gets full value. But who gives away 3,000 – 4,000 paid seats??? No one. Read: empty seats.

      • TFRX

        Their on-court record, until recently, reminds me of the old joke:

        “First prize: Two Clippers’ courtside season tickets.

        Second prize: Four Clippers’ courtside season tickets”.

        The NAACP might wish to reconsider their honors.

        • Jill122

          When you’re slingin’ the S**t, try to get the dung to land properly. It’s the LA Chapter of the NAACP. National had nothing to do with this. It’s about his “gift” to inner city children. Free tax-write off tickets to his home games. 3,000 seats that he would not have sold.

          • TFRX

            The LA Chapter–thanks for the detail.

  • Philip DiIorio

    As a leader in a major University’s Diversity and Inclusion efforts, I know from experience that these recent disgusting abhorrent comments never went away (post-racist, Ha!). However, I find the comment made by the media spokesman that this owner’s behavior was well known–which it was not to me–even more disturbing. If this was so well known, where has the media been? Did the past behavior of this owner warrant only the briefest of comments buried in a newspaper? Where was the commitment to publicizing this issue when it was happening in real time? And how long will it last this time? Perhaps access to athletes, and the misguided admiration of David Stern is more important than championing the efforts to remove people like Donald Sterling from positions of influence.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Money is everything. A belief shared by capitalists everywhere. Let it be.

    Please, sir. Why no socialist basketball teams?

    • TFRX

      All the sports leagues are collectives.

      Capitalism exists for the masses–the players. But not for the owners.

      You may wish to read more about this before posting further.

      • Jill122

        It’s hIs first amendment right to be dumb as a box of rocks and to broadcast it to the rest of us.

        Cheer cheer HLB. You go girl!

        • Scott B

          I was thinking more “bag of hammers”, but rocks work, too.

  • Jill122

    We’re not surprised — we are EMBARRASSED. We know this is not a post-racist society. We deal with these people every day. What we hope is that can fake it till we make it.

    We pray that the old people die out (me included, I’m 70) and that our children will ALL admit we are mixed race. Almost everyone has someone in their background who is of a different race than they imagine.

    I’d like to talk about every day racism. Not the old white guy kind. That’s getting too boring and it’s not even a discussion about racism. It’s sensationalism.

    I want to figure out how to get over all of this — starting with a formal apology for SLAVERY.

    • OnPointComments

      I’m sure that all of the U.S. slave owners will be delighted to apologize to you.

      • Jill122

        No historical apology? We did it for the Japanese. No one had a problem with that — oh wait, maybe you did. How old are you? Three?

        • OnPointComments

          H.Res. 194 (110th): Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans.
          110th Congress, 2007–2009. Text as of Jul 29, 2008 (Passed the House (Engrossed)).
          https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hres194/text

          There. Feel better?

    • hennorama

      Jill122 — as the sayings go, Time Wounds All Heels, and vice-versa.

      • Jill122

        Heels wound all [the] time?

        • hennorama

          Jill122 — I suppose that depends on the height of the heels, and/or if they are being manually wielded with injurious intent.

    • Philip DiIorio

      Agreed–our reluctance to apologize for slavery is telling. But I think the only distinction between “sensational racism” and “everyday racism” is personal/institutional expression.

      • Jill122

        Personal — Bundy’s was personal. He’s not an institution and doesn’t represent one. He does, however, on paper at least have a net worth of over $1 million.

        Sterling — his was personal too. I am completely convinced that conversation took place because he couldn’t admit he was jealous. I felt that way the first time I heard the entire thing. Too many inconsistencies in what he was telling her. Too many personal friendships with black men to be saying something other than “I’m embarrassed because people are calling me to tell me that you are with big black bucks on entertainment programs and it’s making me look bad.” In fact, and this is way out there, but still, I bet his wife called to tell him. Why not? She’s really po’d.

        The institution will punish him. No doubt about it. Just as in the day, white people couldn’t consort openly with blacks (even those of the same sex) if there was not an employer/ employee relationship, so too a white man cannot be seen as a racist today without some penalty.

        • Philip DiIorio

          Hi Jill122

          Sorry for the misunderstanding—I expressed myself poorly. As you say, since these recent statements were made by individuals their personal nature is obvious.

          My intention was to say that there is only a small difference in motive and consequence between institutional and personal expression of bigotry–systems have embedded networks (expressed subtly as recruitment, hiring and advancement difficulties; sometimes overt expression of racism among individual employees) empowered by outdated policies and institutional resistors to change.

          Individuals have biases rooted in up-bringing or experience that may (or may not) be expressed more overtly. Both are difficult to eradicate and both have similar consequences of disenfranchisement and loss of basic human dignity experienced by the objects of this behavior.

  • http://hlb-engineering.us/ HLB

    Those poor, indentured slaves wasting their lives away playing basketball for the mean old white guy. Where is Eric Holder’s Justice Department, anyway?

    Oh, they’re at the game! Oh, OK. Have a fun time.

    • Philip DiIorio

      I hope your aim was better in the Navy. You really missed the point here. Yes players are paid well, but that does not mean Sterling is entitled to demean the people who work for him and make him millions? BTW, I’m sure you’ll let the rest of us know when Holder steps in…

    • Scott B

      Sterling is showing much the same behavior the slave owners did: They’re good enough to own, or have sex with, but they’re not good enough to have their own opinion, should be grateful he provides them food and clothing, and not good enough for an equal seat at the table with him.

  • anne sweeney

    I don’t know what to make of this, Donald Sterling is a black man calling a black man black. So what, Bundy is a red-neck calling the family aspects of slavery as good. He’s not a racist, just not the sharpest tool in the shed.

    • hennorama

      anne sweeney — Thank you for adding to my List Of Typos/Autocorrections/Freudian Slips That Make Me Smile:

      “Donald Sterling is a black man”

      • Jill122

        Maybe she believes that Jews are black. There is a segment in society that does — or equates blacks with Jews. And in fact, there are black Jews — Ethiopian Jews. Some Sephardim — depending on whether we’re using the one drop rule.

        But if she meant that, then surely she would have said we’re all black.

        • hennorama

          Jill122 — thank you for your response.

          You may be correct, but I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, that it was unintentional.

          Thanks again for your response.

    • keruffle

      Where is he black?

  • HonestDebate1

    Why are so many people so invested in harping on race? What is the purpose of giving air to assumptions about what is in people’s hearts. Why do we promote judging by the color of skin? Why must we live in a hyphenated America? Why do we even keep track of race? Why should any law even mention race.

    STOP IT! JUST STOP!

    • TFRX

      Spoken like a true older white Southern rural man.

      Yessirree, racism is over, or would be if richa dn powerful folks’ racism were ignored.

      • HonestDebate1

        Why reply if you are going to make stuff up? I never said racism was over you crazy-assed cracka’.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDb2byj74oY

        • Ray in VT

          http://www.allthingsdemocrat.com/not-racist/

          Some lovely bumper stickers and such here from some totally non-racist people.

          • 1Brett1

            Come on, Ray, racism still exists, we just shouldn’t talk about it…well, unless it is blacks discriminating against whites…

          • HonestDebate1

            Where did anyone suggest we stop talking about racism where it exists? That’s stupid as hell. There should be perspective provided against the ridiculous, ignorant and incessant drumbeat that racism exist in only one direction. Blacks don’t discriminate against whites but they are far far far far more likely to rape and murder them given the population disparity, than the inverse. What’s more troubling is the black on black violence. I call out racism anytime I see it, including the admitted racist on this blog like Hennorama. It’s awful.

          • 1Brett1

            Well, then, let’s hear your words of wisdom…if black-on-black and black-on-white violence are at such “epidemic” levels, as you’ve characterized in the past, and blacks are more likely to commit rape and murder than whites, tell us why you think this is happening and what the solutions are.

          • HonestDebate1

            It is not happening because of the color of skin. I would point to the disintegration of the family, absent fathers, poor role models and the soft bigotry of low expectations. What do you attribute it o?

          • 1Brett1

            Not sure what you mean by “the soft bigotry of low expectations.”

            As far as the other phenomena you point to, does this contribute more effectively to problems within the black community than within the white community? If so, what are the factors that make this uniquely an African-American phenomenon? Also, I am not convinced, as you, that violent crimes are at “epidemic” levels among blacks, nor would I say that blacks are more likely to rape and murder as plainly and succinctly as you say. I believe all of these issues are complex and also involve socio-economic factors. Poverty has similar effects on people, regardless of their race. Why are blacks more likely to live in poverty?

            As far as statistics that indicate disproportionate incarceration, as Matt Taibbi talked about a few weeks ago on On Point, I do think that young black males are targeted by law enforcement more than young white males, in terms of stopping them and frisking them. Black males are more likely to do hard time over small amounts of drugs possessed. Black males are also more likely to have longer prison sentences, even over more legitimate crimes involving robbery and violence.

            I would also say that limited opportunities affect those who are under-prepared before they affect other members of society; this is often people who are poor, under-educated, and live within communities where what they see has a bleakness. Irrespective of race, young males who are not exposed to a lot of choice within their communities tend to be under-prepared for life.

            All of this said, I would not be nearly as self-assured as you seem to be about what exactly causes problems in society.

          • Ray in VT

            Of course. They’re the ones who are really being discriminated against. Them and the super rich.

          • HonestDebate1

            It is sick that you attribute that to the Tea Party or Republicans as you ignore video advocating murder. If you think those were made y non-rcist then I can’t help you. If you think the Tea partiers are racist, ditto. If you think racism doesn’t exist across all ideological spectrums then you are just stupid.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s just bizarre.

        • TFRX

          All I have to do to trump this is turn on Fox News.

    • J__o__h__n

      The person who brought up a letter from 1911 to smear contemporary Democrats thinks the solution to racism is to just move on and ignore it?

      • Ray in VT

        Uh, duh. Because a letter from 103 years ago about a Democratic President shows how it’s the liberals who are racist. How do you not get that?

        • shmarcus

          Your comment reflects the reality how ahistorical our society has become. 103 years ago, both the republican and democratic parties had progressive and conservative wings. However, at that time, the republicans were the progressive radicals around issues of race. The KKK was created by democrats and republican President, Teddy Roosevelt was the first of the “Progressive” Presidents. You should know your history before you begin your comments with “Uh , duh”

          • J__o__h__n

            TR wasn’t perfect on race either – Brownsville Affair. Judging contemporary political parties by members from a hundred years ago is silly.

          • shmarcus

            I agree completely John. It is silly to try to make that comparison and that was my point.

          • northeaster17

            Try not to compare the Dem’s of today with the Dem’s of 100 years ago. The threat of integration after World War 2 totally realigned the two parties. Southern Dem’s bolted for the Republican party for a reason. That’s where the resistance to integration was. The best way to look at both parties is not to see where they were then, but to look at where they are today.

          • shmarcus

            Perhaps I haven’t been clear. I’m not trying to compare them. I’m saying that you can’t. I completely agree with you.

          • HonestDebate1

            Bingo, I wish I could get that across.

          • Ray in VT

            I was being sarcastic. Not being someone whom handle I recognize I would not expect you to know that I was being facetious. I fully realize how the parties have changed over time, which is something that many who refer to the “Democrat Party” seem to struggle with.

          • shmarcus

            Thanks for the clarification

          • Ray in VT

            I am glad to do so. I would not expect you to know my intent, and some would honestly post what I have done in jest.

        • HonestDebate1

          Because Democrats as a whole, despite many of their policies, are not racists. Duh!

          I wasn’t the one who brought up the Trumans. He was also a Democrat nucular annihilator but that doesn’t mean he speaks for all Democrats.

          • Ray in VT

            Of course. The Democrat Party is totally racist. They’re out to get whitey by giving their jobs to undeserving minorities. Anyone can see that “truth”.

          • shmarcus

            That comment speaks for itself in the same way Cliven Bundy’s comments speak for him. You are in good company.

          • Ray in VT

            Please see my response to your earlier comment below.

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree.

          • shmarcus

            Please be clear that my comment was directed at you and not at Ray in VT

          • HonestDebate1

            I disagree as I state often including above but you are entitled to your opinion.

          • Ray in VT

            Funny, that seems to be the only place that you identify racism.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, I just called out you and Hennorama the other day. I still think your view that “WE” all judge darker skinned blacks more harshly is sick sick sick. I think, now that it seems Sterling is the one on the tape. his views sick sick sick. You have a wild imagination.

          • Ray in VT

            Please show me where I said “we”. How scary are black people today? What does the NAAWP have to say?

          • HonestDebate1

            You said research confirmed the sick notion and when I distanced myself from it you claimed we all had prejudices. Maybe you said everybody or all of us or some such. I don’t remember so I’ll remove the quotes. I’m certainly not going to go through your disgusting comments to find it, especially since you know in your heart I’m right.

          • Ray in VT

            Oh, so you don’t know what I said, but you’re just going to go ahead and say that I said something that I didn’t. How dishonest of you. Does it make you sick to read actual facts and not just the prejudiced garbage that Rush spews? It must be sickening to have one’s fact-free positions constantly undermined by the facts, which is why facts, like the dictionaries, must be ignored.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are not a serious person. Nor are you interested in honest debate. That is clear.

          • Ray in VT

            Funny, that is exactly what I think whenever I read your comments. Keep on spreading those lies if it is easier than accepting the truth. You know it in your heart to be true that that is how you roll.

      • HonestDebate1

        It went right over for head.

    • Jill122

      Because black and brown people are not treated equally in our society. There is still a great deal of racism. Of course we can stick our heads in the sand and scream “stop it.” And for some of us, perhaps that works.

      For many others, it isn’t the answer.

      WHEN things are equal, and this is an aberration (not just the words but the feeling) then we can STOP IT!

      • HonestDebate1

        They are treated differently. It’s totally acceptable for there to be a Congressional Black Caucus, a black entertainment network or a national association to advance one race over another when it would not be accepted the other way around. It is acceptable to think blacks are inferior and that standards should be lowered for them. It is acceptable to make excuses for a 19 year old black woman who cannot even read cursive. It is acceptable to ridicule a Southern dialect even if grammatically correct but don’t try that with ebonics. It is acceptable to say blacks are incapable of getting a valid ID to vote. It’s the soft bigotry of low expectations. It’s awful.

        STOP IT! JUST STOP IT!

        • Ray in VT

          Exactly the perspective that I would expect from one whose opinions based based upon “research” from white supremacist groups like the New Century Foundation.

          • HonestDebate1

            I have never heard of the New Century Foundation.

          • Ray in VT

            Right, you just get your racism second hand, so when you push some bunk about how dangerous black people are, you get to say that you’re not citing racists, just those who do, so that makes it okay.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — a bit of supposition:

            Perhaps the individual to whom you replied literally “[has] never heard of the New Century Foundation,” due to the “First Rule of New Century Foundation Club.”

            One notes that he did not write “I have never [read about] the New Century Foundation.”

          • HonestDebate1

            I just haven’t heard of them, that’s all. Maybe I read something somewhere tangentially connected but it did not register. Who are they?

          • Ray in VT

            Just the dirtbags whose “report” seems to be the origin of the 39 to 1 claim that you repeated. You should really check your sources better, but maybe you don’t want to know what bigots your “research” comes from. It’s probably easier to live that way.

          • HonestDebate1

            No that’s the FBI.

          • Ray in VT

            Nope. It’s not. Maybe you’ll cite the NAAWP’s “research” next, just so long as it makes blacks look scary enough.

        • shmarcus

          There is way to much in this to comment on. There is a need for a congressional black caucus because we have a congressional white congress. . I haven’t seen any people speaking “ebonics” in positions of power and control I have a seen recent presidents, House and Senate leaders, judges, CEO’s, college presidents, doctors, etc. who speak with a southern accent. Racism is about power. At the institutional level it’s about how has access to resources and how has the capacity to make and enforce decisions. Even though we have a “black” president, as a white person, my life outcomes, ability to get a job (despite Ray in VT’s comment below that is not supported in any way by statistics), housing, health care, education, etc. is not determined and controlled by people who don’t look like me.

          I teach at the college level and i have a lot of white students who can’t read cursive. No one attributes ttat to their race. Whiteness is so normative that we don’t think of it when we talk about race. We don’t racialize white violence – mass murder, serial killing, Hitler, Stalin. We don’t racialize whet drug use or other issues that are thought of as disfunctional in other communities.

          • Ray in VT

            To which comment of mine are you referring, if you don’t mind me asking?

            Also, good luck. I can’t even convince this guy to accept as valid definitions from multiple dictionaries.

          • shmarcus

            My comment was directed to HonesDebate1, not at you. And, I agree there will be not changing his thinking.

          • HonestDebate1

            My thinking does not include judging by the color of skin so you’re right. I will not change that.

            Regarding definitions, Ray does not accept valid definitions that say intent to deceive is required to lie (verb) despite every dictionary and common sense saying it does. He is of the mind one can lie without knowing they are lying and cannot let it go. He cited a dictionary that said a lie (noun) is “anything misleading” and on that basis makes the above claim.

            Sorry, I know it’s stupid butt when people but in to lie about me I feel compelled to explain. Either way, I enjoyed and appreciate the discussion. you make some good points and I don’t mind agreeing to disagree.

          • Ray in VT

            You misrepresent my position, but such blatant dishonesty is at least consistent across your range of comments. Keep on fighting against the dictionaries. I’m sure that they’re falling all over themselves to make changes in order to make them acceptable to your dim views.

          • HonestDebate1

            I misrepresent your position?!!!!

            You cannot be serious.

          • Ray in VT

            Indeed I am, but you probably believe your lies. Have you contacted the dictionary companies to get them to correct the mistake that they obviously made but that you have seen?

          • HonestDebate1

            Let it go Ray, you’ve lost that argument. By any definition you must have an intent to deceive to lie. All the dictionaries agree. Don’t make such a fool of yourself.

          • Ray in VT

            Nope. You lost. You just have a problem with the dictionary. How sad to be so deluded. No wonder Rush appeals to you.

          • Ray in VT

            I read part of your comment as referring to something in one of my comments. If I was mistaken, then I apologize, but it is in line with that thought that I posed the question.

          • HonestDebate1

            There is no Congressional White Caucus, it does not exist nor should it.

            Ebonics is not an accent it’s bad grammar.

            Our President is half white but his color is irrelevant. No one cares. His radical incompetence has nothing to do with the color of his skin.

            No one of any color should graduate high school if they can’t read cursive.

          • Ray in VT

            What a bunk of hooey.

          • HonestDebate1

            Okay you are on record.

            There is a Congressional white caucus, ebonics is not bad grammar, the president is not half white and reading cursive is no biggee for graduating high school. Brilliant Ray, brilliant.

          • Ray in VT

            Duh, of course. Don’t be a stealin’ mah rat to say what I want.

          • jefe68

            He’s the king of hooey and bunk.
            Not mention he drives a huff…

          • shmarcus

            You completely missed my point. Of course there is no formal congressional white caucus. There is no need for it. Congress, meaning both the house and senate has always been a “white caucus.” Since our founding, there have been 1,949 members of the senate and 9 of them have been black. Only four of those were popularly elected. It wasn’t until the 113th congress that we had two black senators serving concurrently. I don’t have time to calculate the totals, but there have been 131 Black representatives in the house. Given that there are currently 435 members and they are elected every 2 years, you can do the math.

            I don’t have time or space to touch the ebonics question.

            I would say at least 30 – 40 percent of my students can’t read cursive. While I don’t particularly like that or think it’s a good trend, I accept it. The vast majority of students print. And, much of the time they type on their computers and phones. Cursive is on the way out.

          • HonestDebate1

            I got the point, but there IS formal Congressional Black Caucus. I do not agree that Congress should be judged by the color of skin. I do not accept that Congress is controlled by white people but my point goes deeper. It would not matter if it was, or if it was controlled by black people. I do not believe blacks or whites all think the same. There is a world of difference between Clarence Thomas and Sheila Jackson Lee. Or John Conyers and Allen West. Same thing with women, compare Hilary and Condi. IMO the CBC is more concerned with politics than race. Anyone who is of a different opinion than they hold is not welcome. So what good is labeling it by the color of skin.

            You brought up black Senators. The NAACP called Tim Scott a “ventriloquist’s dummy”. Herman Cain was called a “monkey in a window” on a national blog. Death was wished upon Clarence Thomas by a prominent TV pundit. Condi Rice was called Aunt Jemima; Colin Powell an Uncle Tom.

            Meanwhile Rachel Jentil (the friend of Trayvon Martin) was not criticized for being unable to read cursive. She was defended because many don’t expect blacks to be that smart, a notion I find revolting. She was pt condemned for here racist language either. There is a huge double standard. I advocate the same rules for everyone.

          • Ray in VT

            So white people who can’t read or write cursive are just not that smart? Good to know.

          • HonestDebate1

            Duh!

          • Ray in VT

            If they can’t read cursive but can read the dictionary then i would definitely give them a higher grade than you get.

          • shmarcus

            So we have 400 years of unequal treatment that creates a totally imbalanced system by race and then in that context, we decide we’ll treat everyone equally. That would be like me putting you into a set of lead shoes and then saying we are going to have a race and we’ll start at the starting same starting line. As sociologist, Dalton Conley says: “Until we recognize that there is really no
            way to talk about equality of opportunity without talking about
            equality of condition, then we are stuck with this paradoxical
            idea of a colorblind society in a society that is totally unequal
            by color.”

          • HonestDebate1

            I disagree with the analogy as stated. I have heard it put as if you are born black, you are born with two strikes against you. I just think that is a condescending view if it’s applied by skin color.

            There is a lot in your comment. Regarding the 400 years, I would point out a lot has changed in that time. I would add that any effort for atonement for that injustice is IMHO revenge which has no place in rational debate. I think it is impossible to determine who has been aggrieved and to what degree based on the color of skin.

            Michael Jordan’s kids will be fine, so will Sasha and Maiia Obama. That is true for millions of black kids over all socio-economic strata. I can take you to some very nasty white neighborhoods where there are white kids who have a very tough life ahead. I can point to last week’s show and cite Asians who have a 20 point disadvantage for college emission because of their race. I do not believe being black automatically means a disadvantage but I do believe nothing good can come from pounding that message into kid’s heads.

            But all that is really beside the point. No one in America (or anywhere) is chained to the station in life they were born into. Dr. Ben Carson’s story is a good example but there are many. In other words, even if it is true in certain cases it is not an excuse for failure. It is not a reason keep the cycle as is. When we start making excuses we expect less and that is the cruelest thing of all. I think we should demand excellence. Avoiding bad decisions, not doing drugs, nurturing skills, discovering passions, waiting to have kids, being responsible and developing a work ethic are all free for the taking. Those traits are color blind. If a child of any color is not shown that then that is the lead boot not the color of their skin. I will not say blacks don’t know this and cannot grasp the concept. I also will not accept the premise that a child that was not taught these things will never learn them. At some point we grow up and take responsibility for our lives. That’s where society comes in.

            If we as a society continue to focus on the color of skin making blanket judgements that black means poor, uneducated, less capable or disadvantaged then we are doing a grave disservice to them.

            And to be clear, I don’t know you and do not mean to attribute anything to you but this is what is happening. Many black youth are told being smart or studying hard is a white thing and not cool. Well, it is cool and they should be told that.

          • shmarcus

            It’s interesting, you speak of being “colorblind,” but you are not aware that all of your comments indicate that you have deeply held racial prejudice.Everyone seems to have a lot of opinions about race and racism but very few people really know much about the issues. Your comments echo ideas that are prevalent in popular culture, particularly but not limited to right wing media. Unlike, Rush and the Fox News commentators. this conversation is not a matter of opinion for me. It is what I do for a living. I’ve been working on these issues for well over 20 years. It is my full-time work. While you certainly have a right to them, I am not going to waste any more of my time responding to your misinformed, bigoted opinions.

          • HonestDebate1

            I am well aware that my comments can be construed that way. I am not going to reduce myself to trying to prove anything to you other than to say you have no idea, none at all, about my life, my friends and my heart… or even my family,

            So here we go again, I took the time to engage you seriously and I get called names. I am told you are all wise and knowing and my opinions are bigoted. The Fox/Rush monster is evoked out of the blue as is typical. And then without addressing a single issue I raised you leave it at that and run.

            You cannot explain how anything I wrote is untrue, uncaring or prejudiced because it isn’t. You see shmarcus, you are the one who seems to be showing pity for the poor black person who is too inferior to be expected to excel without the help of white people. You are the one who is judging by the color of skin in sweeping terms that stretch credulity. You are the one excusing prejudice.

            All you have are shallow accusations based in ideology that cannot be defended. I learned years ago from working with handicapped (as well as disadvantaged) kids of all colors that pity is the last thing they need or want. It’s poison. So if all you have are arguments supporting pity or name calling, condescension and red herrings (Fox/Rush) then you are right not to continue this discussion because I’m not interested either. Just try not to work so hard to convince your students they are helpless victims because it’s a hideous lie.

          • jefe68

            Please stop it… Stop the inanity…

            I thought of using all caps but I just could not bring myself to doing it.

          • HonestDebate1

            Thank you.

          • jefe68

            There is a tea party caucus however.

          • Ray in VT

            The anti-gay marriage crowd, people who deem evolution to be lies from the pit of hell and climate deniers need a clubhouse too.

          • jefe68

            With hats no doubt.

          • TELew

            So your point is that if a white person has a southern accent, that indicates that person is a racist?

          • shmarcus

            Wow, how could you possibly read that into my comment. I was responding to the misinformed statement that people are ok with ebonics but not with southern accents. clearly that is not the case. Your comment seems to confuse racist with racism. Prejudice and bigotry are equal opportunity. Anyone can be bigoted and prejudiced. However, racism occurs when one group has the power to systematize their prejudices. While black and brown people can hate me as a white person and even hurt me on an individual basis, they do not have the systemic power to impact my life chances in terms of education, healthcare, housing, jobs.

          • TELew

            Actually as a rule I try not to read HonestDebate’s comments. Hence, my reading of your comment was done out of context.

            Also, very often I skim through posts like these, and some things catch my eye. As a southerner who was not raised to be racist, who has always supported equality for people regardless of race, religion, sexuality, etc., the tendency of white northern liberals to paint all white southerners with one brush is quite offensive. Hence, your statement, which I did take out of context, caused me to respond. I apologize for that.

          • shmarcus

            Thanks – I appreciate your note. It’s never good to paint any group with one broad stroke.

          • jefe68

            So let me unpack this, You make a comment that is critical about Northern liberals, and you do so with a broad brush, that’s critical of being painted with a broad brush as a Southerner.

            I’m one Northerner who is not into painting all Southerners as racists, just the ones who act like them. I’m also deeply indebted to the rich literary tradition of the South. Come to think of it, most of our major authors are from the South.

          • TELew

            Ha, ha!

            Nice try to portray this writer as a hypocrite. And it’s easy to see hypocrisy in my previous post.

            Perhaps I should clarify my statement by specifying many (perhaps most) northerners, especially liberal members of the beltway media, seem to regard the South as hopelessly backward, a bastion of racism, homophobia, xenophobia, and fundamentalist religion. And to tell the truth, the South is all of these–but with a sizable dissenting white minority who denounce these things, who believe in equality and fair treatment for non-whites, who come from families and localities holding the above negative beliefs.

            The themes this writer sees in the broadcast and print media of the northeastern beltway are that the South is racist and religiously backward. When fringe elements in the South start talking about “secession,” the opinion expressed by most northerners seems to be “don’t let the door hit you as you leave.” Most of us southerners, including a good many conservatives, neither support nor want secession, and indeed consider it a generally stupid and ignorant position.

            Anytime something bad happens in southern states, it does not take long for non-southerners to interject into the discussion tired old stereotypes and jokes about southern states. Look at current discussions of the tragedy in Arkansas this past weekend.

            This writer has been to Boston before and found it to be an incredible place, rich in the history of our country. He would love to return some day. (Sorry about referring to myself in third person–this writer thinks the moderator has a tendency to delete posts that are “too personal”).

            Literature is not the only contribution made by southerners to American culture. The actual realization of a democracy recognizing the value of the common man was the product of a political alliance between a southerner (Andrew Jackson) and a northerner (Martin Van Buren). Before Barack Obama, the only progressive presidents we have had in the past fifty years have been southerners–Lyndon B. Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton. (No, none of them had perfect records.)

            Of course this writer is aware of regressive forces in northern states. And it is in this that we southerners see hypocrisy. Similar things in the south are portrayed as endemic by the media; but similar things in the north are generally regarded as anomalous, not products of the culture but rather something that came from somewhere else. The South had Jim Crow laws, but in northern states the separation of races was just as real though not de jure. The worst fights over busing students to achieve integrated schools in the 1970s were perhaps in northern cities rather than southern ones.

            And of course, the irony of this current debate over race is that of the two “racists,” neither of them are southerners. Historically racism is more evident by events and structures created in the South. But the reality is that racism has always been and still remains a problem of whites, regardless of where they live.

            (BTW, the writer is white and does not dispute that racist sentiment is common in all racial groups. However, whites are privileged in our American racial structures.)

          • jefe68

            You should look up red lining of black neighborhoods in the North and especially in New York city and the boroughs.

            Not a fan of Andrew Jackson in the least.

            My point, and you seemed to already have made it, is that the South is a broad and complicated region with a rich and diverse culture and history. Jazz and Blues come from the deep South. Can one imagine the world without Louis Armstrong and Sonny Rollins? blues and Jazz are one of the few true American art forms. I was watching a great documentary on the Muscle Shoals phenomenon which could only happen in the this area of the South. Not that North or the Midwest for that matter did not have their own particular thing going on, but this sound was different.

            http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/muscle-shoals/film.html

          • TELew

            I think we agree more than we disagree.

            I absolutely agree that the South is a broad and complicated region. Unfortunately a lot of people know nothing of the South beyond textbooks and the yahoos that make the news. Yes there is backwardness–a lot of it! But there always has been a minority seeking to bring the South into whatever century they actually lived in.

            As for Andrew Jackson, I am not a big fan of his either.

          • HonestDebate1

            I have no idea what your beef with me is.

          • TELew

            The truth is I don’t have a “beef” with you. My impression has been that you generally take a conservative perspective and after reading a few posts, I don’t really need to read any more to basically know what you are going to say. There are others I don’t read either for the same reason. When a topic generates several hundred responses, I never try to read them all.

            Perhaps I am wrong and need to give your posts a second chance. I am sorry if I offended you. That is not why I participate in this list.

          • HonestDebate1

            No.

        • jefe68

          Wow, what’s awful is you don’t seem to get it.

    • shmarcus

      Ignoring race in a society historically and presently totally structured by race does not make it go away. Racism in much more than what individual think and do. It is a system that is created when one group has the power to systematize its prejudices to shape institutional policies, practices and policies as well as shape the culture. When we look at statistics on outcomes across all systems – educations, healthcare, housing, jobs, criminal justice, income, net worth to name a few, we see serious disparities across race. These gaps for the most part have stayed the same or widened since the end of the civil rights movement in the late 1960′s. Using in internal/interpersonal understanding of racism is like have a map of a flat world. It’s not very helpful. It does not provide any meaningful explanation for racial gross disparities we have today. While we know that race is not biologically real, racism is very real. As John Powell says, “Race isn’t real like money isn’t real.”

      • HonestDebate1

        I say ignore race because it is irrelevant. Color of skin is meaningless. There are no purebreds left anyway. It just is a non factor all the way around

        That should not be confused with ignoring racism which is an entirely different topic. But even there, when it is used selectively for political gain or personal destruction then I think the debate is not honest. Racism is racism and it is a serious charge. I do not see the purpose of a show like this. It’s my opinion. I will stipulate I don’t get the show until 6PM and have not heard it. I did hear the subject discussed on Friday’s show and it was disgusting.

        We are equal under the law. It is illegal to discriminate on the basis of race. That should include college admissions that favor one race as well as employers that refuse to hire on the bass of race. I have played music on the road for decades and have been refused jobs because our band had only two blacks but I didn’t sue anyone.

        • shmarcus

          I can only speak for myself. As a white male who grew up in a working class home and community, my “race”* has had a profound impact on my life and has been one of the major factors that has shaped the lenses through which I interpret reality. Being white in a racially structured society has given my privileges. Privileges are things that some people have access to an others don’t. In terms of race, all people who are “white” in our society have privileges. Because it is so normal, we don’t see them. For example, as someone who can walk and is not in a wheel chair, I don’t ever have to think about whether or not I can get into a building or step over a curve. Not having to think about that is a privilege I have as an “able-bodied” person. The same is true for me as a white person. There are barriers set up for people of color that I don’t even know exist. I have carried this with me since birth. It has influenced the way I have been taught to think about myself and how I have been treated by other people. In school, in movies, in the media, I have been taught that people of my race have made this country what it is. If I get pulled over for a traffic stop, I know it is never because of my race. When I ask to see the person in charge, they are usually a person of my race. When policies and laws are made at the local, state and federal levels, I know that people of my own race had a major role in creating them. It has nothing to do with who I am as an individual, whether or not I’m a good person who does not hold racial prejudices or how many black and brown friends I have. It is an aspect of the system I live in. I can deny this all I want. However, it won’t make it go away.

          We are all equal under the law in writing. However, that is certainly not true by any measure in practice. There are volumes of data about the discrimination and disparities I mentioned in my earlier comment.

          We are in a struggle for the soul of our nation. A national founded on the terrible contradiction embodied in Thomas Jefferson’s words. All “men” are created equal is in our founding document. However, it was clear then that this was not the case. As I look at the present day realities and read through the the posting in this comment section, it is clear to me that we have a long way to go in resolving the contradiction of our founding.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t disagree in concept but it’s a new day. Legislating lowering standards or arresting more whites (not that you suggested it) is not a solution. Equality under the law is all we can expect from our government. There are certainly places where being black gives you an advantage. There are neighborhoods whites are not welcome just as there are others blacks are not welcome in. To address these concerns we need to change hearts not laws.

          • shmarcus

            I appreciate your comment. I believe we need both. History clearly supports this. While we have made changes in laws – abolition of slavery, Civil Rights Act, etc. We have dealt with the underlying foundation of white supremacy that our nation was built on. At the same time, the disparities we see today are structural and were created by a complex web of institutional policies practices and procedures intertwined with the cultural realities of white supremacy. While is much more complex than government, government – all three branches – has a major role. We have seen a steady retrenchment of the gains of the civil rights movement since the election or Ronald Regan in 1980.

            As to your other point, having the “advantage” of being able to go into certain neighborhoods, many of which are impoverished and are places where whites do not want to live, does not come close to the disadvantages, or advantaged that I have in terms of access to educations, jobs, housing, healthcare, etc. Because of my work, I have spent a great deal of time in black communities. My lived experience has been that I am much more welcome there than black people are in white communities. In addition, the police don’t show up because some reports to them that I’m in a place where I don’t belong.

    • anamaria23

      The fact is that throughout most of our history people have been judged by the color of their skin. Black slaves provided FREE labor that enabled large segment of white society to prosper mightily, but left the blacks with no resources to fall back on or pass on to their children as white children benefited from.
      The ensuing segregation laws, not visited upon poor whites, further prolonged the obstacles to fortune which kept the black community entrenched in poor communities, poor schools, lack of health care and left a psychic wound that takes more than than fifty years to dissipate.
      Many poorly educated blacks and whites found upward mobility in the factories that have now disappeared in outsourcing. Many poor black and whites are stuck in low wage jobs. Affirmative action was useful in closing the gap that overwhelming poverty enabled.
      There has been progress. Barack Obama, in a speech on race, addressed the lingering attitudes that persist in the some of previous generations.
      Would Zimmerman have been so suspicious of a white young man? We will never know. He may not know himself.
      In my suburban town that I lived in most recently for thirty years, there were not more than 6 black families, if that. My children’s feelings about other races are much more inclusive than were their grandparents.
      And there are much greater numbers of black professionals, but not enough yet.

      • HonestDebate1

        I agree completely. Great comment. I just think enough is enough. Let’s stop judging people by the color of their skin.

  • Alchemical Reaction

    Billions of dollars don’t make you intelligent enough to say, “I don’t feel comfortable not knowing the nature of your relationships with other men.”

    or

    “There are PR concerns that go with being the girlfriend of a billionaire. Are you sure you are comfortable with those, because it means being careful about who you are seen with in public. Your private friendships are one thing, but minimizing the rumor mill is important. Race has nothing to do with it.”

    • Jill122

      Of course it was jealousy. Of course one of his “friends” called to make fun of him because she was seen with a “schwartze”!!! (sp?) (and all that – that means about shoe size, etc.) I can practically hear it now. In fact, it was likely his wife who called — just to rub in what an old fool he really is.

      He said he didn’t care if she F***d him. Riiiiiight! Where did THAT come from?

      • Alchemical Reaction

        It may well have been jealousy. I guess YOU DON’T KNOW because YOU WEREN’T THERE.

        • Jill122

          Oh I’m sorry. I wasn’t there, I didn’t hear everything he had to say, (NOT) and I’m not bright enough to deduce exactly what was going on. (NOT)

          I don’t have to be there to hear the inconsistencies, to figure out the under-conversation going on.

          I will however allow that you are unable to do so, since you just said so.

          • Alchemical Reaction

            Your certainty about your assumptions is one of the main reasons why misogyny exists. You may be right. You may be wrong. The point is, you don’t know for sure. So, stop pretending you do know.
            An assumption or theory is ONLY an assumption or theory until proven.

  • scrabble12

    unfortunately i think this will play out badly. that any strong (and justifiable) action taken by black groups or organizations in response to this will ultimately be deemed over reactions and this real issue of continuing and pervasive racism in america will be explained away as ” well this is just an isolated incident” and in no way systemic or reflective of a real problem in the country.

    • Jill122

      51% of us don’t believe this is an “isolated incident”. The other 47% of us will try to make us believe that it is.

      We need a discussion of racism and an official apology.

      However, it would also be helpful if we talked about the way that wealthy people (the 1%) feel about the 99%. E.g., “I feed them, I clothe them, I buy their cars. Who does that? I do that.”

      • OnPointComments

        H.Res. 194 (110th): Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans.
        110th Congress, 2007–2009. Text as of Jul 29, 2008 (Passed the House (Engrossed)).

        That the House of Representatives—
        (1)acknowledges that slavery is incompatible with the basic founding principles recognized in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal;
        (2)acknowledges the fundamental injustice, cruelty, brutality, and inhumanity of slavery and Jim Crow;
        (3)apologizes to African Americans on behalf of the people of the United States, for the wrongs committed against them and their ancestors who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow; and
        (4)expresses its commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds committed against African Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future.

        • StilllHere

          Another reason we’re deemed post-racial by everyone but those desperate for excuses.

        • jimino

          If you don’t really mean it it is not really an apology.

          And what exactly does a “commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds
          committed against African Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to
          stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future” entail for actual laws and policy?

          • OnPointComments

            Why don’t you enlighten us with a summary of which of the 120 cosponsors of the bill were insincere, and how you made that determination.

          • jimino

            I don’t dispute the 118 Democrats and 2 Republicans were sincere. It was a resolution, which of course means nothing of practical value. Since it did not result in actual legislation that implements its nice thoughts, I put it in the “don’t really mean it category”.

            Or did Congress actually do something to implement a “commitment to rectify the lingering consequences of the misdeeds
            committed against African Americans under slavery and Jim Crow and to
            stop the occurrence of human rights violations in the future” entail for actual laws and policy” and I missed it?

          • OnPointComments

            Uh huh. So you admit it was an apology, but not a good enough apology for you. How about this one then:
            S.Con.Res. 26 (111th): A concurrent resolution apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African Americans.
            Passed Senate Jun 18, 2009

            President Obama’s comments on S.Con.Res.26 were: “African Americans helped to build our nation brick by brick and have contributed to her growth in every way, even when rights and liberties were denied to them. In light of the historic unanimous vote in the United States Senate this week supporting the call for an apology for slavery and segregation, the occasion carries even more significance.”

            If this apology was good enough for President Obama, is it good enough for you?

          • HonestDebate1

            Walter Williams forgave us long ago”

            Whereas, Europeans kept my forebears in bondage some three centuries toiling without pay,

            Whereas, Europeans ignored the human rights pledges of the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution,

            Whereas, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments meant little more than empty words,

            Therefore, Americans of European ancestry are guilty of great crimes against my ancestors and their progeny.

            But, in the recognition Europeans themselves have been victims of various and sundry human rights violations to wit: the Norman Conquest, the Irish Potato Famine, Decline of the Hapsburg Dynasty, Napoleonic and Czarist adventurism, and gratuitous insults and speculations about the intelligence of Europeans of Polish descent,

            I, Walter E. Williams, do declare full and general amnesty and pardon to all persons of European ancestry, for both their own grievances, and those of their forebears, against my people.

            Therefore, from this day forward Americans of European ancestry can stand straight and proud knowing they are without guilt and thus obliged not to act like damn fools in their relationships with Americans of African ancestry.

            http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/813120/posts

          • Ray in VT

            Whoopdee frickin doo for him. This is the same guy, though, who compared the NAACP to the KKK. No wonder he’s popular in some circles.

          • HonestDebate1

            What would you call the National Association for the Advancement of White People?

          • Ray in VT

            A good place to pick up a used copy of White Girl Bleed A Lot.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s an eye opening book. You should read it if you are concerned for the plight of backs.

          • Ray in VT

            I love backs. That’s why I have one. Do they give out free hoods with the purchase of a copy?

          • Ray in VT

            Or A Mostly Southern Association for the Preservation of White Societal Dominance At All Levels.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s stupid, you are not a serious person.

          • Ray in VT

            Yup, such people are pretty stupid. That’s probably why it has historically appealed to a people and a region with disgusting views on race, but some white people need to feel superior, keep those brown people down and keep them away from the white women.

          • jefe68

            And you think you are after the above posts? That’s rich, that’s hilarious, you’re cracking me up cracker….

          • shmarcus

            I call that federal, state and local government, business and commerce, the education system, the media and all other major institutions in our society

          • Ray in VT

            This is his attempt to equate the NAACP with the KKK.

          • jefe68

            That’s sick…

          • HonestDebate1

            Not at all it’s just a simple question. The NAACP never lynched anyone.

          • Ray in VT

            Then I guess that people shouldn’t make, endorse or promote the disgusting comparison of the two groups. There’s also plenty of other differences, such as how one group has attempted to maintain and attain the racial superiority of Caucasians in American society, while the other has sought to have African Americans attain a more equal place in society, as well as how the NAACP doesn’t have a history of the terrorist tactics of the Klan.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t think you can logically make that case.

          • jefe68

            You can’t be serious.

          • Ray in VT

            Oh no! Did you steal my code to the Dismiss-a-tron 5000?

      • brettearle

        There seems to be, even more than ever, Interrelaitonships between plutocracy, racism, elitism, cultural scapegoatism, sectionalism and egalitarianism.

    • brettearle

      Those who are in denial will claim that it’s an isolated incident–which, of course, it isn’t.

      But there are many who aren’t in Denial about pervasive Racism, in the country.

      But we also can’t deny that an African-American has won two terms in the Oval Office.

      That does mean something.

  • Coastghost

    Let’s not forget to give due credit to our discourse managers in the MSM: all subjects for public discourse have to be understood and construed in specific manners, the discourse itself has to be framed with specific limits, while pertinent details are routinely never adduced, never cited, never discussed.
    Instead of “steering civility”, our MSM ill-serve us by imposing detours and by insisting that some topics can only be fruitfully addressed in the tacit “terms of discourse” that our media mouths are comfortable with. (As a for instance: I have to wonder why the situation of Detroit, Michigan, is never broached as a “race issue” in US media presentations: Detroit’s present-day status is perceived inside and outside of Michigan commonly enough as a “race issue” but it is NEVER treated or addressed as such in MSM coverage, despite the intensity and acuity of the perceived perception. The same obviously can be said for Chicago and other highly segregated cities [and states] in the northern tier of states.)

    • J__o__h__n

      Many stories about the decline of Detroit mention the white flight that left the city without enough resources. Also the CEOs who moved the jobs away were probably white.

      • Coastghost

        I wonder whether as many accounts just as commonly adduce the black political corruption that many hold to be behind Detroit’s financial and fiscal mismanagement. (I don’t read the Detroit or Michigan press enough to know, but black political corruption has been no enduring or prominent aspect of NPR coverage of Detroit issues over the years.)

        • J__o__h__n

          They mention political corruption but don’t identify it as “black political corruption” so you might have missed it.

          • Coastghost

            Because white political corruption and black political corruption tend to yield vastly disparate outcomes, perhaps requisite specificity would be welcome and helpful: a pity our intellectually lazy discourse managers fail to invoke the distinction.

  • StilllHere

    I’m sure some of you keep a running tally of all these incidents that are going to change attitudes in America because they are so meaningful. The true test is if we’re still talking about it in 6 weeks. I’ll bet it’s another Zimmerman.

  • HonestDebate1

    Rush spent a few minutes on the Sterling thing this morning, anyone hear it? For those who didn’t, he had some insight. Evidently Sterling’s views are well known around the NBA but tolerated. Now there is a tape so they can’t ignore it. That tells me those in the loop and only now speaking out were more concerned with appearance than racism. But to be fair, maybe they agree with me that it’s no ones business. Sterling pays black people gazillions and much of it ends up in the black community. Maybe actions speak louder than words. I know it sounds crazy.

    Rush is good friends and golf buddies with Doc Rivers. He says every time they get together to play golf he always asks, “what crazy things did Sterling say this week”?

    • JGC

      Rush sounded pretty bored by the whole controversy, but he did pay it a few minutes of lip service.

      He also brought up the political donations Sterling has made to a few Democrats, to lead listeners to think Democratic candidates will cravenly tolerate racism in the face of campaign money contributions. What Rush didn’t say was these were mostly $1000 donations (hardly enough to buy two “dates” with one of Sterling’s “girlfriends”) which were made in the early 90′s (twenty years ago) to just three or four politicians, and that Sterling is, in fact, a registered Republican.

      • jefe68

        HD is only looking to make this about how the left is wrong and that they are the ones that are racists. Next he’ll be going on about Obama’s comments and then the IRS and Benghazi.

        • 1Brett1

          By his above comment, he is also playing his usual “I’m being persecuted” card.

          • HonestDebate1

            There is no doubt I am persecuted around here. None at all. Ray gets up every morning, goes to work, clocks in and scours the blog to reply with nastiness to every comment. You used to do the same thing and when you drop by it’s still the same. NJ, Jeffe, TFRX never have anything but insults. Hennorama, you, Brettearle, Jeffe and Ray insert themselves in threads to tell people I am a waste of time go on to presume to tell people what I think in y’alls own rewrites of my opinions. Hennorama can’t even ignore me by ignoring me. I am certainly persecuted around here, it’s undeniable.

            But implied in your comment is that I am complaining about it. I am not. It can be frustrating because it’s sooooo stupid but if you all are proud of your collective tactics then God bless you. If you think you are defeating my arguments by being nasty then it’s you who are delusional. So persecute away to your hearts content. I don;t care what any of you think. I care about honest debate and the propaganda you parrot.

          • 1Brett1

            “Ray gets up every morning, goes to work, clocks in and scours the blog to reply with nastiness to every comment I write.”

            This exemplifies the kinds of presumptions, characterizations and exaggerations you rely on. How do you know when Ray “clocks in” to work? What is meant by “scouring”? That presumes to know his habits/the meaning of his habits and mindset. Also, again this is how you make absolute your criticisms: “…reply with nastiness to EVERY comment I write.”

            You flatter yourself beyond reality. Yeah, people are more inclined to reply to others they know on here, and Ray is no more likely to reply to you than you are to him. You go out of your way (if you wish to put that frame around it) to reply to me; unlike you, though, I won’t characterize your behavior as EVERY TIME. Nor will I even say that you go out of your way; you see a comment and reply to it, just like we all do. What I, or hennorama, or jefe, or anyone else, am doing isn’t anything any differently than any regular commenter on here. And what you are doing is NOT more high minded, nor is it more persecuted than what any other regular poster is subjected to.

            …Interesting how you prattle on about being persecuted and say you are not complaining.

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude it’s true. Every morning, same thing. But it’s cool. He’s like clockwork and gone by five and the weekends. Ask him, he’ll tell you. He’s got a cush gig. Click his profile you can tell by the time stamps. Check them by the day, it’s plain. Read his comments, they’re mostly to me and all nasty. He’s annoying as hell. Day in day out.

            No one is treated like this to this degree with the possible exception of Ed. And those I name are certainly not like other commenters. Those I name are unique. I would never paint the entire blog with that kind of nasty brush.

            And I am not complaining, in a way I ask for it. My moniker alone puts a bulls eye on me. I will be provocative without apology. I will embrace controversy (as well as Sarah Palin and Rush) knowing full well I will be attacked. I will go against conventional wisdom in this liberal bastion. And I will alway have a basis to defend my argument.

            I am not by any stretch the only Conservative voice though and the rise in our numbers have been good for debate. The left is worried. They openly talk about what to do to stifle debate. We don’t do that. We welcome honest debate.

          • 1Brett1

            So, as you say, you are deliberately provocative and (you have said) you use charged language, inviting the “bull’s eye” as it were, but whine to someone you feel will be sympathetic (JGC) and then claim you are being persecuted…you then characterize yourself as fighting some noble fight…Jeesh, ego much?

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude, you brought up the persecution thing not me. JGC replied to my comment and I replied to her. I like her, sue me. Call it whining of you want but you should take a lesson. JGC is no shrinking violet. She can be brutal but she does so without getting personal. I truly respect that. What’s the problem?

          • jefe68

            Wait until he starts demanding that you apologize, immediately! in all caps with exclamation points. What a hoot.

          • HonestDebate1

            Why should Brett apologize?

          • jefe68

            Don’t know, why should Ray or I for that matter.

          • jefe68

            Yawn.

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 — not to mention that “It’s not about me,” except when he feels the need to crow about his “more noble position,” and use the word “I” nearly two dozen times, and the word “me” nearly a half dozen times.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are so funny dude! Get me out of your head. I’ll give you a clue or two. We give our opinions here. I give mine. My opinions are sometimes about my experiences. There is a world of difference between that and replies that don’t have any relevance at all other than to tell me how nasty, idiotic or racist I am. For example look at your comment I am replying to. It’s about me, ditto the one above it… and the one above that. The board is full of them today. The topic is racism in America not me.

            Here’s another, I can write I as many times as I please and I can be myself to the fullest extent of me all while I stay on topic and I express my opinions as I see them in my heart. I reserve the right to write what about me because I am me, I do know what I think and I am willing to defend what I write. I can add value with my version of how I see things. That doesn’t make it about me. I can talk about me all I want and I will be completely consistent every time I point out in my replies the commenter is attempting to change the subject to me in lieu of honest debate. So there’s that.

          • jefe68

            Poor him…

        • JGC

          It seems like when some liberal people (Hello, Vice President Biden!) occasionally make a senseless (though meant to be well-intentioned) racist comment, they quickly see the error of their ways and issue an apology when called on the carpet. The older you are, the more grace points you are given for this kind of gaffe. But the racist comments that pop up regularly across the Conservative continuum, are met with blank stares and non-apology apologies. Many of them really don’t get it. Rand Paul and, strangely enough, Cliven Bundy are two who seem to understand this.

      • HonestDebate1

        I’m bored too, it’s frustrating JGC. I just am very passionate about getting past racism. I remember writing a letter to the editor of the Charlotte Observer. Before there were blogs that’s all we had. There was a story about black prostitutes who said they had no choice in life. I wrote that in America we do have a choice. For weeks after that I was called a racist in print over and over for expressing my simple view. It killed me. I eventually realized the arena. I finally realized mine was the more noble position. I finally understood that I was giving people too much power over me if I let it bother me. That was a very long time ago and now its worse. I find it incredibly sad. I have succumbed to what I hate, I can’t seem to help it. I should not empower people to make me sad but it’s just such a shame. I am very sincere.

        I am glad to see you back commenting and as you know we agree on little but I always enjoyed your honesty and civility. I have become less and less civil with a few and more reflexively and unfairly snarky with others, even those I’ve never seen here before. Believe it or not I do think about you (and Ellen Dibble) when I go there. I haven’t seen Ms. Dibble here in quite some time. Your presence helps me keep my perspective. Thanks.

        I’m not trying to suck up but I’ve been wanting to say that for a while. Don’t worry, you still piss me off sometimes too.

        Rush did go on to say Sterling has been a registered Republican since 1998 as soon as he was informed.

        • JGC

          I can’t get past racism by ignoring it. I am pretty sure everyone here is ready to move on, but how can we when confronted in such a public way? I have to concur Sterling is an “old codger racist”, and actuaries will also agree, at 80 years of age, he is soon doomed to the Great Beyond, taking his racist theories and rants with him, and leaving the rest of us to a better world. But in the meantime, he is an old codger racist with power, and that is why this otherwise tawdry, stupid and boring incident has to be addressed. There is not one person or organization who comes out of Donald Sterling’s six degrees of separation looking like a hero, and I include the NAACP chapter that was planning to award him another (another!) lifetime achievement award.

          I didn’t hear the whole Limbaugh program ( I had to leave shortly after he was spinning his theory that what got Sterling into trouble was his lack of donations to the Obama campaign). I am glad Rush corrected the record about Donald Sterling’s political affiliation, although it may not matter in the end, except for this one point: the rush (no pun intended) to brand him as the Democratic Party’s own poster-racist neutralized the racial ramblings of Libertarian/anarchist Cliven Bundy, as it was intended to do. Cliven who?

          I found it a good thing to take a break for other matters (some family, some local) and maybe others will also be of the same mind. I just learned that the Canadiens will be facing the Bruins (GGRR! Bruins! Bruins fans: you know who you are!) in round 2 of the Stanley Cup playoffs. That is going to occupy a certain amount of my time and righteous anger (Chara!) when that begins. As I think I have said before, if I got too fired up over things some of my Red State relatives believe and say, then my family connections would shrink in half. Luckily for me, their sense of humor is as strong as their conviction that Obamacare is going to ruin the country, and we all seem to get along in spite of our opposing politics.

          • HonestDebate1

            i hear ya’, it can’t be ignored now but regarding Sterling it was ignored for years.

            I don’t like painting either party with the broad brush of racism. However, we all know, Republicans, especially in the South, are racist. Ask anybody. It’s no wonder their bigoted selves are eager to find an glaring example on the left. But it backfired.

            I don’t follow Hockey but I’l root for the Canadiens in your honor.

            And I still love my sister and mom despite their little liberal problem.

  • Jill122

    Kevin Arnovitz: They cannot force him to sell the team. They can fine him, they can suspend him from day to day operation (cannot attend his own games, may lose seat on his own Board of Governors).

    This is a program being broadcast right now on NPR. “Here and Now” Jeremy Hobson hosting. Arnovitz NBA Editor for ESPN

    • StilllHere

      That’ll keep the “ladies” away.

  • hennorama

    Indiana Pacers forward David West tweeted his succinct reaction to the recording purported to be of Donald Sterling’s words and voice:

    David West Verified account ‏@D_West30

    Sterling basically articulated Plantation Politics…Make money off the Bucks/Lay with the Women/No Association in Public good or bad

    4:32 PM – 26 Apr 2014

    See:
    https://twitter.com/D_West30/statuses/460199784611983361

    • StilllHere

      Thanks I was wondering what David West was tweeting.

      • hennorama

        Stilllhere — you’re welcome.

        Thank you everso for your ongoing contributions to the discussion.

        • StilllHere

          I live for your acknowledgement.

  • HonestDebate1

    I missed the show, was there any discussion of the knockout game? Or flash mobs? Or the over 70% of black households that are single parent families? Or that there are more black babies aborted than born in NYC?

    I assume so since this is a show on race in America.

    • Ray in VT

      The “knockout game” is not new, and the NYC mostly considers it to be an urban myth, but it keeps Fox viewers scared of brown people. Flash mobs? Some isolated incidents that some have tried to spin as a part of the narrative of out of control blacks running amok. If African Americans we’re jailed at higher rates and for longer than whites, then there would likely be fewer single parent households, and lower income women may not wish to carry to term pregnancies when they do not think that they can provide for a child.

      • hennorama

        Ray in VT — reason is useless here.

        The individual to whom you replied believes he is engaging in so-called “debate,” and believes he is “honest,” but only as he alone defines these words, both singly and in combination.

        In addition, the equine excrement expert to whom you replied is seriously out of his depth, as he believes the absolutely inaccurate pseudo-statistic that he wrote (without citing a source, of course), that there are “over 70% of black households that are single parent families.”

        Nevertheless, as a fellow Quixote devotee, well done, sir.

        • Ray in VT

          Well, you and I know better than to cite what he cites, but because he believes his lies, then he believes that he can claim that he isn’t lying.

          At any rate, I would edit my previous post to read “considers it to be largely an urban myth”.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — TYFYR.

            You might also wish to change “we’re” to “weren’t” in your OP.

          • HonestDebate1

            The press had no problem taking a single incident, not involving racism, and creating the urban myth that skittle eating black kids were in danger of white racists stalking murderers. That is the myth.

            http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/deadly-truth-behind-knockout-game/

          • Ray in VT

            Sure. African Americans don’t get profiled. They don’t get harassed or confronted by the cops for driving or walking while black. It’s not like some guy is going to fill a car full of young black guys with lead when their music is too loud. It’s not like African Americans as statistically twice as likely to be the victim of a violent crime where the perpetrator is white as the reverse -scenario. It’s not like some 70-80% of racially motivated hate crimes are carried out against African Americans. Oh wait, yes, those are all true.

        • HonestDebate1

          Please don’t tell me what I think.

          • jefe68

            Someone should tell how wrong you are however.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s fine, make your case.

          • Ray in VT

            The case is constantly made. You just don’t believe the facts, with their darned lib’rul bias.

          • jefe68

            In your case, it’s an open and shut one.

          • JS

            He had a doozie yesterday, saying “feds are clearing the way for a land grab”, when I questioned how could it be a “land grab” if it’s federal land, he said, get this:

            “I never said it was a land grab, i said they were considering it”

            Classic dis-honest non-debate

          • HonestDebate1

            Why would you lie so blatantly JS? You did not quote what I wrote yet you used quotation marks as if I did write it. Not once but twice. Neither of your quotes are accurate.

            Here is what I wrote:

            “Just to be clear, I didn’t say they were grabbing it so I don’t understand the quotation marks. I said they are clearing the way, I also expressed hope it would be thwarted before it gained momentum.”

            I answered your question thoughtfully, thoroughly and civilly. You did not respond. Here is the entire comment:

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/04/25/nathan-deal-ukraine-obama-japan#comment-1356041734

            Anyone can scroll up to see the context. Then you will find I did not say, as you quoted me, “feds are clearing the way for a land grab”.

            I wrote: ” Now the underlying issue will be ignored and a circus will ensue. That will clear the way for the feds to do a massive land grab on the Red River.”

            There is a world of difference between “the feds are clearing” and “that will clear the way for the feds”.

            Does it matter to you that I was right?

            http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/04/blm_eyes_90000_acres_in_tx.html

            Look dude, I’ve been patient. Don’t join the club of haters. I know my moniker puts a bullseye on me, I welcome it. Put me in my place in the arena of ideas don’t just spend all your effort trying to prove I am dishonest because you will fail. You will be reduced to redefining what is honest or rewriting what I said as you just did. That is not only dishonest but it avoids the issues raised. It becomes a circus. We can disagree and come at things from different perspectives. That’s cool. Put down the snark gun, give me my due and you will find I have a basis I can defend. I have done so with you.

          • JS

            Sorry if I put it in quotes, that was an error on my part because I couldn’t find the poroiginal post for some reason and thought it was dleeted. But the meaning is the same. And your actually quote, and my statement of what you said, are basically the same, as any one can see.

            to wit:

            My interpretation of what you said:
            “I never said it was a land grab…”
            What you actually said:
            “I didn’t say they were grabbing it…”

            My interpretation of what you said:
            “…i said they were considering it”
            What you actually said:
            “I said they are clearing the way..”

            So, again, sorry I didn’t quote you directly, but to call what I wrote a lie is dishonest, since what I wrote you said, and what you actually said, are pretty much identical.

            And I did respond, quite thoughtfully also, about owning land on a rive is tough, because in some circumstances the river is the boundary, and if it moves, so does the boundary. I am not sure what happened to that comment, and when I looked, I couldn’t find your comment either to get a direct quote, but I still stand by my interpretation as the correct one, even if I was wrong to put it into quotes.

          • HonestDebate1

            They are not at all the same. I did not imply or say a land grab was in progress as you represented. I clarified when you changed your language from “going to grab” (fine) to “grabbing” (not what I said). I was consistent, you were not.

            And I just gave you a link showing field hearings have begun in regards to changing the regulations. They are clearing the way, as I said. The thing that concerns me is the same as it’s always been, the overreach of the BLM. I answered the question about federal land as requested.

            The lie is your framing my clarity as contradictory but it’s worse than that. Imposing yourself in a thread for the sole purpose of discrediting me while resorting to misrepresenting what I wrote when all I did was answer your question satisfactorily in a civil manner is just piss poor form. Further it’s beside the point. The way is being cleared for a land grab. The regulations must be changed to deem it federal land.

            So I’ll reiterate, don’t join the hate club with insults, distortion and deflection of the issue. I made a point and defended it. I am right about it. If you can make the case I am wrong then please do so, up front in the arena of honest debate. You didn’t even try.

          • JS

            I tried and succeeded. What I paraphrased you as saying is for all intent and purposes exactly the same as what you actually said.

            And thank you for posting the exchange, for I found this:

            JS to HonestDebate1 • 4 days ago
            “So the feds are going to grab federal land?”

            HonestDebate1 to JS • 4 days ago
            “Yes, but ever since Kelo that’s nothing new.”

            JS to HonestDebate1 • 4 days ago
            “If it’s federal land, how are they “grabbing” it?”

            I asked you if the feds were going to grab federal land, and you answered “Yes”. I then asked “how are they “grabbing it” if it’s federal land.”

            It would take linguistic gymnastics to twist this around as you did and say what you said. Perhaps if I had said, “If it’s federal land, how would they be “grabbing” it?” you would have better understood, but I doubt it.

            And “grabbing” was it quotes to highlight the charged nature of the word: even you should be able to see it’s not a neutral word.

          • jefe68

            He’s the prince of pedantic pontification.

          • hennorama

            jefe68 — indeed, including how wrong he is to believe I’m actually directing my comments to him, which is not the case.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t care who you directed it to. It was about me and what you think I think.

            “The individual to whom you replied believes…”

            You do it all the time. You may even be correct from time to time but the cowardly tactic is silly. You are even reduced to counting my pronouns. How silly is that?

            There is a little minus sign top right. You claim to use it. Please do every time you see Honest Debate unless you are prepared to engage in honest debate. And to be clear, engaging you is a waste of time. I have no interest in homework assignments, silly questions, confusing links with proof or endless tangents that lead nowhere. If you say something I disagree with I will chime in. If you want to reply fine. If not then constantly butting in uninvited or using others to indirectly respond serves no purpose. Surely your ego does not need to be self inflated any more than it already is by such absurdity.

            Honest debate is not complicated, you should try it.

      • HonestDebate1

        Urban Myth? Isolated incidents? Alrighty then.

        • Ray in VT

          Yup. I know that that isn’t what the race-baiting fear mongers that you pay attention to say, but that is that way that it is.

      • harverdphd

        “If African Americans we’re (sic) jailed at higher rates and for longer than whites”, would that explain the decrease in crime in Chicago you mentioned recently?

        • Ray in VT

          Considering how long standing such inequities are, then how would such historical inequities affect local and national crime rates to such a degree, as well as the crime rates for other ethnic groups? Perhaps you have some great answer to such a question.

      • TFRX

        There’s something “Diane Sawyer haz a sad” about the way some people discovered the knockout game.

    • J__o__h__n

      Complaining about too many single parent families and too many abortions – pick one to complain about.

      • HonestDebate1

        I was not complaining, I was asking if the show addressed race in America in a way more meaningful than the revelation that there are old codger racists in the world. That’s all.

    • StilllHere

      Sorry, we’re trying to spin something out of some isolated incidents here, please move on.

    • Anthony Vasquez

      Cliven Bundy, is that you?

      • StilllHere

        Is Bundy known for asking a lot of questions?

        • Anthony Vasquez

          He’s known for wondering a lot of things.

  • Coastghost

    To hear American discourse today, you would not even be aware of so quaint a notion as “just prejudice”, the kind cited by Edmund Burke in his Reflections on the Revolution in France. Entirely apart from the context of race and race relations, Burke cites the persistence of prejudice as a sure sign of political integrity and as a rebuke to “private reason” which he demonstrates will find readily any rationale to suit its purposes.
    Problems ensue, of course, just as soon as prejudice is permitted to fester unexamined: and as long as we are all discouraged from voicing our separate prejudices, we will remain little inclined to examine them closely. Whether we enunciate our prejudices or no, we continue to live by them: yet our discourse managers seem content to stifle informed consideration of the prejudices (just and unjust) with which we all operate, which itself undermines the power of just prejudice as an expression of political integrity in the specific Burkean sense.
    “The moral sentiments . . . will assuredly not live long under a discipline which has for its basis the destruction of all prejudices.” (EB, Works III, 108)

    • HonestDebate1

      i find it amazing that the preponderance of comments are about Sterling as if he represents the state of racism in
      America. This is too important an issue to be relegated to such a myopic focus. I am convinced many people would rather not do the heavy lifting to confront their own prejudices so they instead wrap them in an imaginary cloak of compassion.

      So for what it’s worth, I appreciate your comment.

  • Arkuy The Great

    Which is more damaging to the NBA? Don Sterling’s alleged comments or the fact that he, a married man, trots out a cheap mistress in public and has no embarrassment about doing so?

    • StilllHere

      I don’t think anybody cares anything about this whole incident, the media just likes the salacious parts of it. NBA ticket sales and TV contracts will be unaffected. On Point likes to spin isolated incidents into greater lessons when it comports with their static world view. That, and it helps generate page views.

      • brettearle

        It’s on the PBS News tonight.

        It was in MSM over the weekend.

        I’d be surprised if FOX wasn’t covering it.

        Sounds like you’re simply trying to scapegoat NPR, unjustifiably.

        • HonestDebate1

          The crime is putting it in the context of “Race and Racism in America”.

    • brettearle

      Who are you calling `cheap’?

  • Anthony Vasquez

    Did you not listen to the guests? Sterling has a decades long history of discriminating against minorities, and is constantly in court over it. Many people were already aware of Sterling’s racist reputation. No need to “set up” Sterling, since he seems to be doing a good job of that himself.

    • brettearle

      Sterling seems like a sleaze.

      But why do you suppose that his MO was not a national story before this–if, indeed, he’s a notorious Racist?

      It sounds as if a `Hidden Tape’ is such a scandalous measure, that it had too much sensationalized appeal, not to go viral.

      • hennorama

        brettearle — speculation:

        The various and sundry embarrassments of the until quite recently hapless and embarrassing Clippers organization was deemed sufficient punishment for Mr. Sterling.

        Mr. Sterling’s business practices as a landlord were widely known and publicized prior to the now also widely-publicized recording, that some claim is of Mr. Sterling’s voice and words.

        • brettearle

          But his Racism should have been Front & Center, nationally, quite some time ago.

          • hennorama

            brettearle — TYFYR.

            The operative word in your post is “should.”

            The legal cases were resolved for the most part, and were not directly related to his ownership of the Clippers. That’s in marked contrast to the subject remarks (if they are indeed Mr. Sterling’s words).

            Plus, an audio recording is far more salient and relatable, compared to rather dry testimony in a racial discrimination case related to rental properties.

          • brettearle

            I came over to your side yesterday–when I kept ingesting more dribs and more drabs.

            It’s just funny how a clandestine tape can do it.

            Alas, Baldwin and Gibson were outed that way.. Although both of those guys survived.

            Sterling won’t, however.

            Regarding the possibility of doctored tapes, is why I thought Obama’s comments were premature.

            his reaction could turn out to be too knee-jerk.

            Remember the Henry Lewis Gates thing?

          • hennorama

            brettearle — TYFYR.

            I understand your perspective.

            There certainly could be some reason for concern, but again, one must make note of the fact that Mr. Sterling has not denied that the recording is of his words and voice.

            The NBA’s investigation is ongoing, and they are going to make a statement tomorrow.

            Meanwhile, the Clippers team got steamrollered yesterday, making a Game 7 in Los Angeles, from which Mr. Sterling would garner added revenue and profits, a bit more likely. OTOH, several team sponsors have pulled their advertising.

            BTW, a suggested improvement to an earlier comment: “The Deriding Blight.”

            After all, Mr. Sterling is a guy who has heckled at least one of his own players [during a game] — Baron Davis.

          • brettearle

            Regarding the “Deriding Blight”?

            I am not amused.

            You are over your Quota.

          • hennorama

            brettearle — alrighty then.

          • Steve__T

            You know when you have that much money ppfffffffff aint’ No body goin’ out of the way to say a thang, (no money loss) but, when the cat is out of the bag….the band wagon begins.
            I believe that whatever you do in the dark will come to light.

          • brettearle

            Good point.

  • HonestDebate1

    “The hatred directed toward President Obama shows how many Americans hold onto racial bias.”

    It’s odd that as much of a disaster the Obama presidency has been to this point economically, socially, geo-politically and politically that you would assume racial bias over incoherent, inept incompetent policies. Why is that?

    • JS

      Yes, record stock markets are such a disaster. Record corporation profits are such a disaster. A lowered unemployment rate (while still high) is such a disaster.

      Overturning don’t ask, don’t tell, a law that thwarted the effort to fight terrorism by barring qualified gay americans from serving, such a disaster.

      State after state affirming Gay Marriage, such a disaster.

      Winding down two wars and bringing troops home for good, such a disaster.

      And all this even though the Republicans number one priority wasn’t fighting terrorism, helping the economy, or moving the country forward, but making sure Obama was a one-term president.

      And, purely anecdotal, but about 50% of the people whom I know that voted against Obama have used the “N” word to describe him.

      • HonestDebate1

        The stock market is artificially inflated by QE one through umpteen. That is not good. The unemployment rate is Godawful when you look at the LFPR which is at a 40 year low. Part time employment os at record highs, there are millions fear available jobs.

        And yes, checking out of the world has made it much more dangerous, It;s a disaster. The Middle East is in shambles.

        This is awful.

        • JS

          The Middle east has been a shambles for as long as I can remember, thanks in part to Western meddling. Let it be a shambles without Americans dying.

          • HonestDebate1

            Blaming America is not valid. Obama has made a mess of things. He let Iraq go back to the terrorist, He couldn’t even negotiate a SOFA in Afghanistan. He pushed Mubarek out the door and the Muslim Brotherhood took over. Egyptians were in the streets saying Obama is Morsi’s bitch. He ceded leadership to France in Libya and breathed new life into Gadaffi causing it to drag out causing a gazillion needless deaths. Iran is getting nukes. He issued red lines in Syria that were ignored and Asaad is still murdering with WMD. He let Russia be the middle man, that was smart. So Putin takes Crimea, no biggee. The israel/Palestinian talks are dead and Kerry warned of Apartheid enraging the works. He should resign. He lied in Benghazi when our Ambassador was murdered and now we have the smoking document proving beyond a shadow of doubt what we already knew: they invented the video meme for political purposes. And that just scratches the surface.

            All of this will result in more Americans dying, not lees.

          • Ray in VT

            Ah yes, more of the same b.s. I thought that yesterday was manure shoveling day?

          • HonestDebate1

            First quarter GDP for 2014: 0.1%

          • Ray in VT

            Yup, it was tough there for a couple of months, especially as the weather impacted home and vehicle related issues, but March showed some rebound, and employment has continued to recover.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            I thought that Bush or Reagan totally solved the Middle East issues. Didn’t ole Dubya look into their eyes, see their souls and get the sides to agree? Everybody has failed on this one since the 1940s.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            So are you advocating for “state capitalism”? That’s been the system that got them to the top, plus and authoritarian government, a lack of worker rights and environmental protections. Maybe that’s why the TOP favors such an approach. We can just race the Chinese to the bottom.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            How’s the GOP support for taking action this time, when there are actually chemical weapons?

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            Yup. Not what the TOP and Faux News says that it is. Nothing new and still doesn’t play into their conspiracy theories.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            http://www.factcheck.org/2014/02/aca-impact-on-per-capita-cost-of-health-care/

            Some interesting conclusions Forbes makes. Take the projected increase in costs and do some simple division. Of course that doesn’t take into account various factors, but it falls along the same logic that if just Bill Gates and I are in the same room then the average wealth in that room is in the billions.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            I wonder how angry all of those people who didn’t have health insurance, had policies that ended up not covering anything when they went to use their insurance or who have received refunds from their insurers are about getting hosed by Obama?

            Of course the changes in the LFPR is all about Obama. It’s got nothing to do with the long term declines that started about, or more than, a decade ago, the onset of the recession or demographics. The man is truly all powerful.

          • HonestDebate1
          • Ray in VT

            Obviously this, as well as the conduct of certain Secret Service agents, is also due to the signals that they are getting from Obama.

          • HonestDebate1

            If there were ever proof of the Limbaugh Theorem, you have provided it here. I thought that you would quit digging at some point but it seems you would rather die than pin any blame on Obama for anything. He has absolutely nothing to do with anything; no influence at all. It’s amazing but thank you for playing. Nothing to see here.

            See you in November.

            Have a nice day.

          • Ray in VT

            The Limbaugh Theorem? Is that the theorem that shows that some dip will blame Obama for anything, no matter what role he played? I think that that was proved by the Louisiana Republicans surveyed who blamed Obama for Bush’s poor Katrina response.

            Sure. Obama’s totally to blame for the long term trends of a declining LFPR, increasing health care costs, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or the public and our allies not wanting to go in on action no WMDs after getting burned by Dubya’s selling of Iraq and ten years of our involvement there. How silly of me.

            I am glad to play Watch Some Conspiracy Theory-Promoting Fool Assail Obama for Everything. I catch every episode that I can on Faux.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, that is not what the Limbaugh Theorem is. It would be ineffective to blame things on Obama that he was not to blame for. Rush has nothing to gain by not being intellectually honest. If he tried that he would not be as respected, popular and widely listened to. He would not last a minute much less 25 years. He would not have been able to single handily revive the AM dial. He would have just been another failure like Air America or MSNBC or any other network that cannot survive the scrutiny in the arena of honest debate.

            The Limbaugh theorem is explained here:

            http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/08/01/must-see-interview-rushs-limbaugh-theorem-teflon-president-obama

          • HonestDebate1

            I see you are replying immediately without looking at the link to understand the theorem.

          • Ray in VT

            Yup. I have little time for Faux’s drivel on Rush, but I can guess. Let me see, if one doesn’t blame Obama for trends going back to long before he was President, then one is obviously saying that nothing is his fault? How close am I?

          • HonestDebate1

            Off by a mile, try media matters.

          • Ray in VT

            Why? What obnoxiously deluded thing that he said that you love did he say today?

          • HonestDebate1

            I find it intellectually stimulating to disagree with him. You, not so much,

          • Ray in VT

            Yes, I can imagine that it must be saddening to have me show you where the dictionary, history and facts so often show that your pronouncements have little resemblance to reality. There is hope, though. There is plenty of good information out there from a great many sources, however if you insist upon relying upon sources such as Rush, then there is little that can be done for you.

          • Ray in VT

            If Rush had any integrity or intellectual honesty then he’d lose most of his current audience. His combination of appeal to low level thinking and the dim is well nigh unknown in radio since the days of Father Coughlin.

          • HonestDebate1

            That makes no sense.

          • Ray in VT

            He probably fights the dictionary and tells people how scary black people are based upon white supremacist “research” too. Now I see the appeal.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are not a serious person.

          • Ray in VT

            Lame, as are your attempts to proclaim what words mean despite dictionary definitions to the contrary and your attempts to pass off New Century Foundation’s racially biased “research” as something of substance and as being from the FBI.

  • hennorama

    Some of the remarks attributed to Donald Sterling, owner of the Los Angeles Clippers, echoed some spoken during an event at CPAC 2013.

    These are the remarks from the recording (emphasis added):

    WOMAN: Do you know that you have a whole team that’s black, that plays for you?

    MAN: You just, do I know? I support them and give them food, and clothes, and cars, and houses.

    The MAN’s words are very similar to a question asked in March 2013 by Scott Terry, who along with Townson University’s White Student Union founder Matthew Heimbach, attended the hilariously ironically named CPAC panel session, “Trump The Race Card: Are You Sick And Tired Of Being Called A Racist When You Know You’re Not One?”

    The session was sponsored by Tea Party Patriots, and was being moderated (sort of) by KCarl Smith, an African American and, according to his website, “is the President and Founder of Frederick Douglass Republicans.” Mr. Smith has made multiple media appearances,

    Anyhoo … Mr. Smith asked the panel “Do you want to know how to trump the race card and talk to your family members without fear of being called a racist? Tell them you are a Frederick Douglass Republican.”

    At one point thereafter, Mr. Terry expresses a concern that he and others like him might be the real victims here (he described “young white southern males like myself”). Mr. Terry went on to say, that after reading some history,

    “I really came to love my people and my culture… I know that’s anathema… I feel like my demographic are being systematically disenfranchised. Why can’t we be more like Booker T. Washington Republicans? Unified like a hand but separate like the fingers.”

    At this point, moderator Smith jumped in, speaking of how Frederick Douglass had eventually forgiven his former master.

    Then Mr. Terry interjected the question that became (besides the hilarious name of the session) one of the most memorable parts of CPAC 2013:

    “For giving him shelter? For food, and all those things?”

    See:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/cpac-tea-party-event-racism–2013-3

    http://frederickdouglassrepublican.com/about/k-carl-smith/

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2013/03/15/how-not-to-sound-racist-the-most-awkward-cpac-panel-ever/

    http://towsonwsu.blogspot.com/ (website for the White Student Union at Towson University)

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/15/member-of-all-white-student-union-makes-stunningly-outrageous-comment-about-slavery-during-cpac-session/

    http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/03/26/traditionalist-youth-network-takes-on-culture-distorters-in-marriage-equality-debate/

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41742_About_Scott_Terry_-_CPAC_Slavery_Defender_and_Disenfranchised_Whites_Illustrated

  • HonestDebate1

    h/t The Blaze

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/28/brazilian-soccer-players-awesome-response-to-racist-taunt-during-match/

    I think this is great. It shows the power not to be offended is the most powerful force of all.

    I am going to tell this story again because it’s been a very long time and bears repeating. Freddie and I have been playing music together off and on for over 30 years. We have been through thick and thin, the birth of his children, the death of his father and much more. I love him. Nowadays we mostly just go fishing.

    We were playing in a Country bar in King, NC many years ago. Freddie was literally the only black guy in a packed house of about 650. He came up front to sing a song and some a$$hole started waving a confederate flag bandana in his face. Freddie just walked to the other side of the stage but the jerk followed and persisted. Finally, Freddie reached down and snatched the bandana from him then tied it on his head. The song was Morris Day’s “Jungle Love”. Freddie jumped off of the stage and into the crowd. He was shoving the mic in redneck’s faces having them sing “Owee Owee Ohh” and they loved it. The A$$hole looked like an idiot. The crowd turned on him and he left. Freddie never was intimidated, insulted or offended. Racism in that redneck bar died that night all because Freddie would not allow it.

    • JGC

      The Dani Alves response is a good one. Bananas seem to be fraught with all sort of pychological baggage; maybe they should be banned from sports stadiums altogether:

      http://www.mikespry.org/2012/02/07/two-minutes-for-being-a-minority

      The story with your friend, Freddie also has a satifying turn-the-tables ending. But there has to be some sort of mental energy to be paid to being subjected to random incidents such as this. And what if, in a similar scenario described above, someone today responded to the challenging and racist taunt by shoving a mic toward a bar patron’s face in a state like Florida? Would the patron get away with his own escalating response through Stand-your-Ground?

      • HonestDebate1

        That was interesting. As is my nature I will step right in it. I don’t like the notion of perfectly normal words (and good sources of potassium) being deemed offensive. I don’t think we should call anyone a monkey, it’s insulting. I don’t buy that it has a special present meaning to anyone alive today. If someone thinks a black person is further down the evolutionary (once believed, now known BS) line and closer to a monkey then they will believe they are making a personal insult. You can’t insult a skinny person by calling them fat but call a fat person fat and you will. And here’s where I’ll get in trouble but it’s my opinion, it works both ways. In other words the recipient (and those who sympathize) must somewhere feel that blacks are truly closer to monkeys to consider it an insult of a higher order.

        Best to just eat the banana, I love them.

        • 1Brett1

          Ah, so condemn the person who finds insults toward blacks offensive and not the offender…okay. Aside from that, you have a childlike view of certain societal problems, i.e., “just say, ‘sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me’ and end racist words and taunts like in that little redneck bar all those years ago…” How quaint. You should write overly sentimental B movie scripts or YA novels.

          • HonestDebate1

            No not really. I think the intensions are usually noble. I doubt it is a conscious thought process but logically it is what it is. I don’t condemn it in any way. I am looking deeper for why it is considered an insult in the first place. There is a historical reason having to do with ignorance but that was settled a long tome ago. I think the history of the remarks are only pertinent to dead people. It’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree.

            The rest of your comment is just silly. I never said anything of the sort.

          • 1Brett1

            First, I wasn’t quoting your exact words (please look up the definition of “i.e.”). However, you’ve said something similar on a number of occasions. Here’s an example posted just above and after I posted my comment even.

            “All anyone has to do to not be offended is not to be offended.” That’s the ‘sticks and stones’ concept in a nutshell. “Let it roll off your back,” etc.

            Your notion about how ignorance is in the past and racial insults only affect dead people is ridiculous. If that is true then what Sterling or Bundy have said should not mean anything offensive to anyone. Absurd.

          • HonestDebate1

            All I said was it was silly. I didn’t say you quoted me. And that’s not even what I was referring to. The silly, check that, absurd part was this: “How quaint such a notion that one can end racism so quickly and easily.”

            That’s nuts. Who believes, claims or implies that nonsense?

            “Sticks and stones… ” is not silly at all. I think it’s wisdom. I do believe to the pit of my soul with every fiber of my being that all you have to do to not be offended is not to be offended. And call it quibbling if you want but I see a world of differed between saying something is offensive and being offended. I think it is stupid as hell for anyone to give Sterling or Bundy the power to offend them no matter how offensive the words.

            You don’t have to agree but that’s my opinion.

          • 1Brett1

            “I never said anything of the sort”

            What is that referring to if not the only part of my comment pertaining to sentiments you’ve expressed?

            You’re funny, as in ridiculously in denial.

          • HonestDebate1

            Duh! Seriously?

            I never said racism could be ended quickly or easily. I never said anything of the sort. You made it up. That’s why I wrote it off as silly and didn’t address it.

            I already explained it:

            The silly, check that, absurd part was this: “How quaint such a notion that one can end racism so quickly and easily.”

          • 1Brett1

            You just said it so it must be so

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 — reason is useless here.

            You’re engaged with an individual who uses crimes in which the offender(s) and victim(s) are members of different racial/ethnic groups as examples of racism, as if any and all such crimes inherently involve race. He does this despite the folly of doing so having been pointed out to him repeatedly.

            Otherwise, enjoy your merry discourse; it’s quite entertaining.

          • 1Brett1

            I don’t think I’ve ever conversed with anyone who has such a combination of ego, lack of self-awareness, and arrogance. He makes declarative statements about what he is, what he is not, what he says, what he hasn’t said, etc., then betrays those declarations almost immediately…amazing.

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 — thank you for your response.

            “Amazing” is defintely one word that fits.

            Before I forget, I believe that in the future you are required to address this person as “Sir,” as he is a self-proclaimed Noble One.

            Best wishes.

          • jefe68

            I think that’s called adolescent behavior.

          • HonestDebate1

            Liar, I have never said anything of the sort purely based on skin color. I have been clear and careful not to because I think that tactic is stupid. I was outraged at that very thing happening during the Travon murder. Your “as if” is your fantasy. If I ever blamed racism, which by default requires different races, there was evidence.

            Get me out of your head Hennorama. Brett doesn’t need your help with being nasty. I don’t need your lies. The blog doesn’t need your disingenuous blather. And it is unseemly to try and sabotage commenters with such belligerence in lieu of honest debate.

            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2014/04/29/thomas-piketty-inequality-gregory-mankiw#comment-1360980499

        • JGC

          Obviously, bananas are big trouble and should only be enjoyed in the privacy of one’s kitchen.

      • 1Brett1

        While I am not into hockey, I thought the article was an insightful one, although I am not surprised.

        I am a musician too and have seen my share of redneck hecklers. Some situations resolve themselves by heckling the hecklers and some blow up in one’s face when one heckles the hecklers, starting a riot where people get injured, as quaint and overly sentimental as the Freddie story may be.

        • HonestDebate1

          The only riot I ever saw was at a Zeppelin Concert in Tampa, 1977.

          The only brawls I’ve seen in bars (I’ve seen many) were just drunks being jerks usually over a woman. Or maybe some version of biker territorial BS. I’ve never seen heckling turn onto a riot in all my years on the road. I’ve never even heard of it. I guess I’m lucky.

          • 1Brett1

            You’ve never played some dive where a patron gets into a fight with a band member and things get ugly? Please…I guess you want to narrowly define/quible over the definition of “riot.” You’ve never had anyone wait in the alley, so to speak because a band member said or did something on stage?

            Besides, you’ve totally missed my point. Just like you missed JGC’s point about bananas. You tend to do that…

            It is absurd/Pollyannaish to think that racism died in that redneck bar because of Freddie’s so-called bravery; and, snatching someone’s possession out of their hand/getting in their face has nothing to do with systemically addressing racism.

            Get it?

          • HonestDebate1

            No, I never have. I’ve played many a dive but we always were very careful not to be provocative. We focused on fun. I suppose there have been many times when the boys in the band got the girl to the chagrin of a jilted lover/husband/ex but it never got to the stage. It wasn’t for anything that happened on stage. It was for antics in the hotel room the night before. I don’t recall it ever coming to blows off the stage either. I’ve never been in a fight in my life.

            I think I got JGC’s point just fine.

            And no, you didn’t get it at all. For one thing Freddie did not get in the guy’s face with the mic, it was other rednecks. It was the crowd at large. That guy was humiliated and left. For another, when the a$$hole was up front he was basically daring Freddie to take it. He was almost begging. Freddie complied. It wasn’t brave it was show business. You mention hecklers, It’s not brave to humiliate and turn the crowd against a heckler. It’s the job at hand, it’s the way professionals do it, that’s all. The crowd was on Freddie’s side. Everybody loved Freddie that night (and most nights).

            And it’s a metaphor. That night Freddie was the man, the racist was the fool. 650 people endorsed that notion despite any preconceived notions they held. It didn’t change the world. It’s not a cure. It was just a good time and a good feeling.

            I have another great story from that bar about a guy from El Salvador named Julio but I’ll save it.you wouldn’t get that one either.

          • 1Brett1

            Okay…

            I have always dealt with hecklers well, turning it into a positive on most occasions; so what, none of that matters. Your Freddie story in the midst of discussion about racism was off the mark, that’s all.

            If you got JGC’s point, you sure pretended as if you didn’t, but then pinning you down is like pinching mercury.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ve got Raspberries to plant. Good evening.

          • The poster formerly known as t
          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t know what that has to do with raspberries.

            You have to click the link to see the picture of Calderoli. Do so and see if you agree with me. I think he looks like an Orangoutang. He has no room to talk. And as I said, I do find Kyenge attractive, sue me.

            Do you think it’s worse to throw bananas at a black person than a white person?

      • hennorama

        JGC — “Bananas seem to be fraught with all sort of pychological [sic] baggage” is quite an understatement.

        This tactic of tossing a banana at a player or politician with dark skin unfortunately has a very long and sordid history, especially in Europe, as the entity to whom you replied knows full well, as evidenced here:

        http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/08/09/week-in-the-news-terror-threat-summit#comment-996597545

        • JGC

          What the…!?!

          • hennorama

            JGC — thank you for your inquiry.

            My response: “What the…!?!,” indeed.

    • TFRX

      As a Barca fan, I thought that was cool what the player did.

      However, power imbalance means “the power to not be offended” is so much easier for white people. Funny how that goes.

      • 1Brett1

        Yes, but TFRX, how else would we have had the ending “racism in that redneck bar died that night all because Freddie would not allow it”? I don’t know about you, but that clinch ending made me tear up…

        • HonestDebate1

          It was indeed beautiful.

          • 1Brett1

            Another example of your missing sarcasm.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re kidding? Was that sarcasm? Whoda’ think? I admire your ability to see it when it is plain as day. I wish I were that smart.

          • jefe68

            This chap misses more than sarcasm.

      • HonestDebate1

        All anyone has to do to not be offended is not to be offended.

        • 1Brett1

          I do declare; why, shut my mouth, y’all just done slay-yapped the pi-yig smay-yack day-yab in the mud waller! That was as oWn the mun-ay as a June bug oWn a mi-yint julip!

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 — I believe you missed “bless your heart…”

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s not complicated.

            Just curious, do you think it’s acceptable to judge people by the way they talk (as if anyone talked like that)? Do you mock as a way to imply stupidity based on dialect?

          • 1Brett1

            Um, it doesn’t take a genius to see that I was mocking your, “All anyone has to do to not be offended is not to be offended.” As if that is all that is required when someone is offensive, or that rebounding from being offended by being made fun of for who one is or where one comes from is that facile. You just mentioned yesterday that you thought it was offensive to criticize a Southern accent/someone’s accent (or words to that effect).

            No, some of the smartest people I’ve met talk in the dialect I exaggerated…You’ve never heard someone use the word “on” and had it sound like “own”? Or that they turn one syllable words into two or three syllable words when they speak? Or that they use colloquial terms? Please, and you live in North Carolina? You must never leave your front porch.

            But, hey, tell us more about bananas. (I used to accuse you of intentionally playing dumb, and yet you do this all the time; your replies to my comments are good examples. Your “bananas” comment to JGC being another example.)

          • HonestDebate1

            I know you were mocking, I said that. It wasn’t my question. If you think my comment was stupid and in need of mocking why do you think that device is needed? How does it reenforce your point? I don’t sound like that. I use decent grammar. What was the purpose?

            And no, I did not say it was offensive to criticize an accent. I said:

            “It is acceptable to ridicule a Southern dialect even if grammatically correct but don’t try that with ebonics.”

            That is why I asked you the above, to prove my point. I just remember how pissed you got when I criticizes Rachel Jentel’s ebonics and racist language. That’s not an accent. Your outrage was misplace.

          • 1Brett1

            You may say you know that I was mocking, but you clearly didn’t know what I was mocking. I clarified what I was mocking and why, sorry you feign not understanding or simply don’t understand. See, the idea is that it IS offensive to make fun of someone’s accent; it’s not so easy to shake it off sometimes. As much as it is a false equivalent to introduce two different arguments that weren’t spoken about within the same context, the way Rachel Jentel spoke and the ways that many poor Southerners speak can be compared. Ever hear a rural North Carolinian say, “the onliest reason”? I have. Or that they might mispronounce words? That doesn’t mean they are stupid or are a disgrace to their race. With Jentel, you really put her down and even tried to associate her unworldly ways with what is wrong with black people, how they are given a pass. The only double standards are the ones you set when you put down Rachel Jentel, implying that she is stupid, racist, and entitled.

            You don’t have to agree with my approach or assessment.

          • HonestDebate1

            In this day in age, I have no problem criticizing the onliest or unloosen or any other display of young adults who are uneducated but somehow graduated high school because of low standards. And if they use the n word all over Facebook I criticize them more. I don’t care what color they are.

            I did not associate her unworldly ways with what’s wrong with black people. I said the opposite. I do not expect black people to be unable to speak clearly because they are inferior. I think they are not inferior and are capable of learning just as well as anyone.

          • 1Brett1

            So, “cut an unworldly teenager a break” translates into liberals think black people are inferior…you do go around circles and use the same tactics over and over. Sorry I’ve attempted to engage you. This attempt at a conversation is over.

  • Lynne51

    Interesting show but not for the obvious reasons. Sterling’s racism is repugnant. As disturbing was the anti-Jewish undertone by the guests, the call for separate African American sports leagues, and the possibility of financial gain on the part of Magic Johnson with this evidence (an issue not broached in the least).

    Of course Sterling’s remarks are unacceptable. But there does seem to be a double standard of racism. That Al Sharpton, for all his repugnant, racist antics gets major air time and that no one calls for boycotts of Jay Z whenhe wears a Five Percent Nation medallion (the equivalent of wearing KKK paraphernalia)? Something is deeply wrong.

    • LMNOP

      There is no such thing as reverse racism. When one culture has dominated and oppressed the other(s) for centuries, there is no amount of backlash that could merit the same linguistic appropriation of “racism.”

      • Mahatma_Coat

        Although I do think it is more agregious when a wealthy white man is racist (because power and wealth is still more concentrated in the hands of white men and this means he has the power to hurt more people with his racism).
        To say there is “no such thing as reverse racism”

        • LMNOP

          The issue with your argument is that this concept of “color-blindness” (to say that this “stupid racial division” should end) in conjunction with the idea of universalism (that the problems that face humanity are uniform and cannot exist specific to one race) creates a host of new issues and effectively ignores the very factors it intended to address.

          • Mahatma_Coat

            I certainly dont profess to have the answers to a perfect civilization. But “race” per se doesn’t provide accurate group social markers anymore. For example, I dont think you need to say “black people need to take action” in response to Sterling. The NBA needs to take action. Americans need to take action. People who dont want racism in their society need to take action.

            Generalizing based on race divides people in unuseful ways. Obviously humans will always create groups. But let’s create useful ones.

            We have some huge problems in common that need fixing. We need all brains on deck, so to speak, to solve these problems. We do need to cooperate on a broader scale and end the stupid division based on melatonin production.

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaM-MBkKJF8&index=54&list=PL7E32096C0DA5F99C Logic

    Is there such thing as prejudice against rich racist old hag bags?

    • StilllHere

      The ladies seem to like them.

    • Ray in VT

      Are you judging them based upon a set of preconceived, inaccurate notions, or are you judging them based upon the facts pertinent to each individual?

  • hennorama

    NBA finds the voice on the recordings is Donald Sterling’s and that he views expressed were his, bans him for life, fines him the maximum possible amount — $2.5 million — and will force him to sell the Clippers team.

    All completely appropriate, given the findings.

    • HonestDebate1

      I disagree, I don’t think it is appropriate at all. I do think the NBA as a private enterprise probably has the right however. I am just uncomfortable with the notion of penalizing thoughts is such a dramatic fashion. And his words were private, it would be different if he got on the PA and said at a Clippers game.

      To the best of my knowledge Sterling broke no law. It is perfectly legal to be a racist as disgusting as it is. His actions qualified him for an NAACP award. If he broke any laws regarding discrimination or civil rights then that would be a different matter. I don’t think a private conversation expressing his views rises to that level.

      To be clear, I can’t believe I need to say this, I do not excuse his words by any stretch. I am not defending him in any way. I feel sure I will be accused of just that given many commenter’s inability to separate Bundy’s views with the BLM overreach.

      • JS

        I actually agree with you on this. I think he should be shunned, ignored, even boycotted. And if that leads to him having to sell the team, all the better. But fining him and forcing him to sell private property because of his disgusting opinion is going to far in my book.

        Again, I have no problem with him losing the team due ot players walking out, fans walking out, and sponsors walking out, but, in this instance at least, he broke no law, and probably no NBA regulations, if there are any for owners (if there are and he did, thats another story)

        The problem as I see it is that people are too lazy to boycott, love basketball too much to boycott, so its easier to just throw him out and be done with it.

        And unlike you, HD, I do not think I will be accused of defending him, because I know the difference between suspected BLM overreach and proven scofflaw behavior.

        • hennorama

          JS — Mr. Sterling’s words and conduct endanger the NBA’s business as a whole, not just the Clippers organization.

          The NBA made their Constitution and By-Laws public after today’s press conference (link below). The Commissioner has broad powers, including:

          Where a situation arises which is not covered in the Constitution and By-Laws, the Commissioner shall have the authority to make such decision, including the imposition of a penalty, as in his judgment shall be in the best interests of the Association.

          See:
          http://deadspin.com/that-secret-nba-constitution-is-now-online-1569509012

          • JS

            Thats a very broad power indeed. I still think forcing him to sell the team is going to far, but banning him from their “club” is a good first step I guess.

            I would still prefer more public shaming of people like him, and boycotting of the team and sponsors, until he sells.

            And I am not sure about this hurting the NBA. LIke i said, people are lazy and will soon forget, especially if he managed to put together a winning team. I mean, the NAACP managed to overlook his behavior after a few donation$

          • hennorama

            JS — thank you for your thoughtful response.

            I don;t know how much more of a public shaming of Mr., Sterling there could be, especially when the President of the United States, when asked about your remarks, says “When ignorant folks want to advertise their ignorance, you don’t really have to do anything, you just let them talk …”

            Keep in mind that a boycott of the team would affect many more people than Mr. Sterling alone. And those opposed to Mr. Sterling would apply pressure to the entire league, in an effort to get the NBA itself to take action.

            No doubt the Los Angeles chapter of the NAACP (this chapter only, not the national organization, was set to honor Mr. Sterling) is doing some serious soul-searching right now, and is reevaluating their criteria for handing out honoraria.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • JS

            I agree with your posts. I guess my concern is between making him sell the team, as opposed to pressuring him to sell the team. I oppose the former, I support the later.

            As for public shunning, I guess my concern is more based on corporate malfeasance, where the perpetrators still sit on corporate boards, still join their contemporaries at the country club, still are invited into polite society dispute their crimes and failings. But I guess in those cases people won’t shun what they themselves are, or aspire to be.

            And thank you for your posts, always engaging, polite, and well reasoned: the types of responses that draws me to the comment sections, despite the drivel that abounds.

          • hennorama

            JS – TY again for your response, and your very kind words.

            The very name of the organization, the National Basketball Association indicates the problem that everyone in it would have, were Mr. Sterling allowed to remain in any capacity. They would all be associated with the man and his remarks, like it or not.

            Earlier, you used the phrasing “their ‘club’, ” which again, highlights the issue. Having Mr. Sterling as a member taints all other members.

            As to corporate malfeasance, please allow a paraphrased observation from a TV pundit (forget exactly which one, my apologies) discussing the circumstances of Rep. Michael Grimm, who is facing a 20-count indictment on Federal fraud and tax charges:

            “Rep. Grimm won’t be forced out, because the charges involve money, and not anything to do with removing his pants.”

            I suspect that no one will want to be “caught dead with” Mr. Sterling, who as yet has expressed no remorse. No doubt the paparazzi (and camera-equipped members of the general public) are all over this, and the media-aware (which is practically everyone around Mr. Sterling, and in Southern CA as well) won’t be going anywhere near the guy.

          • JGC

            That helps answer one of my questions from above.

          • hennorama

            JGC — Thank you for your response.

            I’m glad to have helped in some small way.

        • Mahatma_Coat

          This is a form of boycott. Its not like he is doing prison time.

  • marygrav

    It is always legal to insult African Americans because unlike Jews we have not gone through an offical Holocaust. We did not meet with Europeans who had the intent on destroying US as a matter of modern industirialization. And then too, most of US have not made our distruction in the West a point of destroying anybody but ourselves.

  • HonestDebate1

    I would not suggest it on the street. Freddie was in a unique position. I would also think you would understand the dynamics of audience participation in show business. I assume you do, there is no need to infer I advocate it as a viable option to combat racism elsewhere.

    The point was first, it related to the soccer story I linked which showed how easy it is to not only refuse to be offended but to turn the tables to make the offender look like the idiot. Further it illustrates there are degrees of racism. These days there is a direct equivalence drawn between being a racist and being a violent bigot looking to beat someone up because of nothing but hate for their race. I strongly object to that notion. That is not how racism typically manifests itself. The room certainly had many racist in it. I am sure of that. But it didn’t mean their preconceived notions could be over-ridden to enjoy some good hearted entertainment from a black guy. Telling the story illustrates that point which I think is often lost.

    These kind of instances are what eventually changes hearts. We used to have a blacksmith who was a racist. During GWB’s first term I remember him telling me he was raised prejudiced. He confided that he never in a million years thought that blacks (not his word) could be as smart and accomplished as Condi Rice and Colin Powell. It was a turning point for him. Their content of character trumped their color of skin in his mind.

    I think it is very rare for a racist to hassle black or white person on the street. Racism is much more subtle these days. When I was a kid it wasn’t so. There were neighborhoods in Liberty City I was not safe in unless I was with someone black which at the time was my boss. I was a kid. He said just stick by me, keep your mouth shut and you’ll be fine. I was. I’m sure there were other neighborhoods where the inverse was true but I never experienced it personally.

    • 1Brett1

      I can’t vouch for the blacksmith, as I have never met or talked to him. I only know your characterization of him; which, your characterizations do tend to be simplistic.

      You see, Condi Rice and Colin Powell didn’t suddenly become colorless; the blacksmith changed his mind in some way. Our charge is not to have a colorblind society but one that embraces diversity and allows for a level playing field toward opportunity. This is different than not seeing color; it’s also different than saying “look past color.”

      The “colorblind” person tends to need winning over, as if saying, “despite the color of this person’s skin I like him/her. We all know a lot of people like that, where they are prejudiced but develop friendships with black people. That’s not what the country is or should be shooting for, in my opinion.

      • HonestDebate1

        I left out the part where he was hospitalized after having his ass kicked by a gang of blacks at a high school football game. Maybe he had it coming I honestly don’t know. That only served to cement his beliefs. How do we change that? My point is it wasn’t legislation or God or someone trying to convince him. It was the excellence on display; content of character he could not deny.

        Once someone says despite the color of this person’s skin I like (or better yet, respect) him/her, the seed is planted. It’s only a matter of time until it grows. Even if it doesn’t grow the cycle begins to slow, if not stop, and it dies away. He has a son.

        • 1Brett1

          Sounds like another one of your “black on white” crime examples. But, hey, maybe (as you say he was a racist growing up), those black kids in high school were just standing up to his racism, Freddie style?

          No one is asking anyone to NOT see skin color, or even to like anybody (or even respect people on an individual basis); that’s not what MLK was talking about. And this is another example of your missing an important point.

          Legislation can’t change mindsets (it may encourage those things to change, thought, as Condi and Powell wouldn’t have gotten to where they are before the Civil Rights movement, for example), but legislation can change behaviors, particularly when it comes to protecting rights.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m just telling you what happened. I’m just giving you my opinion. I said he might have had it coming, I wasn’t there. I don’t know. The point was he was hardened in his beliefs. Freddie has nothing to do with it.

            Who said anything about NOT seeing skin color? And where did I attribute what I didn’t say to MLK? And you say I missed the point? WTF?!

            MLK dreamed of the day when people would be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. I agree. My blacksmith did just that with his epiphany.

            Affirmative Action (legislation) cannot work unless you judge by the color of skin. It’s impossible. MLK was a Southern Baptist Preacher. Since when did you trumpet views from his kind? No you are just another liberal using his legacy for your agenda. A week or so ago others were doing the same thing. Policies liberals support do not square with MLK’s views but you can’t say so nor can you square them.

  • EdTheMexican

    This is plainly mob rule, although comments are horrid Mr.
    Sterling comments were made in private and that is where they should have stayed.
    It is against the law to use comments where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy to be made public. The real victim here is Mr. Sterling legal rights.

    • Other Chris

      The times, they are a-changin’. The ride is getting rougher for bigots, and I’m happy to see it.

    • 1Brett1

      The legal actions taken against him over the years because he discriminated against minorities in his real estate properties couldn’t weaken him; he is too powerful. So maybe a little dirty baiting and putting it before the court of public opinion was the only way?

      Generally, I agree about privacy issues, but Sterling just loses…oh, well.

      • JGC

        Sterling loses…or does he? What about community property law in California, which means Shelly Sterling is the co-owner of the Clippers? Could this just bump her into the management suite replacing Donald? After all, it wasn’t her voice being recorded. And is there some sort of standards clause in the owner’s contract, that would allow the NBA to withdraw franchise privileges? Is there a lawyer in the house?

        • 1Brett1

          I don’t know how California’s community property laws would divide Clippers ownership in a divorce, but it certainly seems plausible that Sterling’s wife could end up owning shares in the team.

          Sterling, it was announced yesterday, lost some privileges associated with ownership and can not attend anything pertaining to the NBA, including any meetings, games, or celebratory ceremonies.

          As far as Sterling being forced to sell his shares in the team/relinquish ownership, I don’t think there has been a precedent in the NBA but in other sports teams there has. For example, Marge Schott (whose racial slurs and general ignoramus qualities trump Sterling’s behaviors and comments by a long shot), former owner of the Cincinnati Reds, was strong-armed into selling her controlling interests in the Reds at around the same time that partners had planned to oust her. She did, however, retain minor partnership.

          • JGC

            OK, maybe there can be justice, of a sort. I didn’t follow the Marge Schott particulars, so maybe her case does show a path.

            People like this, and I have to include Shelly Sterling as well, do not possess the capacity to be “shamed”; it is just not in their DNA. I don’t know that there can even be satisfaction by forcing them to sell the Clippers: so the Sterlings sell their franchise valued at $700-million when their original purchase price was around $12-million; they must be thinking please, can you punish us some more? I don’t know what their kryptonite is.

          • 1Brett1

            It is difficult to tell what Sterling’s kryptonite would be. I’ve heard that he was aware he was being recorded, as he has all of his conversations recorded. He’s also a lawyer, I think. I don’t know how true his knowing about being recorded is, but he certainly doesn’t seem to be discreet about his views, based on his actions and comments throughout the years. It seems as though he likes playing the big shot, so maybe being banned for life from any NBA activities will be shameful to him? Who knows…

    • hennorama

      EdTheMexican — California is a “two-party consent” state, as are 10 other states.

      Some reports indicate that it is clear that Mr. Sterling was aware that he was being recorded, according to some who have heard additional portions of the recording in question. This should not be considered as a fact, since no one has yet gone on the record.

      In addition, given that CA is a “two-party consent” state, and that there have no doubt been multiple attorneys for the various media outlets involved prior to publicizing the recording, it is more likely than not that they felt confident that Mr.Sterling was aware of being recorded.

      See:
      http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=10857580&city=losangeles&src=desktop

      http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-donald-sterling-tapes-20140429,0,7072200.story#axzz30KIjwLa1

  • Steve__T

    Hmmm you must be his lawyer.

  • Sarahkat

    One of your commentators speculated that because V. Stiviano asked Sterling probing questions about his racial views, maybe she was coached. This assumption that a beautiful woman who has sex with a wealthy older man and receives material benefit from the relationship is probably not able to formulate her own ideas about racial discrimination is troubling. I wish that Mr. Ashbrook had pointed this out on air.

  • JGC

    (Curious thing: when I first posted my comment above yesterday, it was kicked back to me with a polite “under review” statement. I think it was the “V” word that flagged my post, and by that I do not mean “V.”Stiviano…)

    • hennorama

      JGC — yep, that “other v-word” kicks a comment into “moderation,” but CIALIS® (tadalafil) does not.

      (I think.)

  • StilllHere

    Will the NAACP give him another award after this blows over in a couple weeks?

  • The poster formerly known as t

    This feels like an overreaction. This guy has not behaved in a openly hostile fashion towards those of African descent, aside from allegedly refusing to rent out some of his property to those of African descent. For someone of his socioeconomic status he could have done a lot worst if he wanted to make life difficult for those of African descent. It’s not even clear that he’s a racist from what I’ve heard. There’s a lot more to this story than meets the eye, including the motives behind the people who want him out. I don’t think it’s because there are so many people within the NBA that are acutely sensitive to the blight of those of African descent.
    This is only news for stupid people, ie. shallow superficial people, imo. The gullible type.

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