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Banning Affirmative Action: The California Story

California as Exhibit A for what happens when a state bans affirmative action in college admissions. We’ll look at race, college and California.

Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

The Supreme Court’s ruling that states can ban affirmative action in college admissions is still reverberating this week.  Of course, eight states have already done it.  California was the first, sixteen years ago.  And the California story is eye-opening.  In the first year of the ban, black and Latino admission rates plummeted by half.  They’re still way down.  And Asian-American admissions soared.  Way beyond their percentage of the population.  Now Asian-Americans are California’s number one opponents of affirmative action.  This hour On Point:  College admissions and the California story.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Katy Murphy, higher education reporter for the Oakland Tribune and the San Jose Mercury News. (@katymurphy)

Gary Orfield, professor of education, law, political science and urban planning at the University of California, Los Angeles. Co-director of the Civil Rights Project at UCLA. Co-author of “Educational Delusions?: Why Choice Can Deepen Inequality and How to Make Schools Fair,” “The Resegregation of Suburban Schools: A Hidden Crisis in American Education” and “Higher Education and the Color Line.”

Carlos Munoz, Jr., professor emeritus in the department of ethnic studies at the University of California, Berkeley.

Henry Liem, philosophy professor at San Jose City College.

From Tom’s Reading List

Associated Press: California bill reignites affirmative action  – “Nearly 20 years after California became the first state to ban the use of race and ethnicity in college admissions, a proposal to reinstate affirmative action has sparked a backlash that is forging a new divide in the state’s powerful Democratic Party and creating opportunity for conservatives.”

San Jose Mercury News: California’s affirmative action ban bolstered by Supreme Court ruling – “By upholding a Michigan law nearly identical to California’s, the ruling left only a legislative — or ballot initiative — route for allowing racial and gender preferences in public college admissions, contracts and hiring.”

Los Angeles Times: Affirmative action at California colleges: A debate based on fear – “Instead of deciding based on misinformation or fear, and worrying about narrow group interests, we can have a more principled conversation about whether a racially diverse college-educated population is important for a stable and equitable California. Proponents of affirmative action will also need to make a much stronger case for why existing programs to ensure diversity are insufficient, including one that admits the top 9% of students from most high schools in the state.”

 

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  • HonestDebate1

    Why should colleges be required to be ethnically diverse? What good is diversity?

    • Human2013

      Ask the Marketing Industry.

      • Bill98

        And the marketing industry is analogous to colleges how, exactly?

        • Human2013

          These student we leave school and step into the global economy. They will be asked to sell handbags in Kenya, elusive securities in the Phillipines, Autos in China, Natural gas to the world. For that, they will need a strong respect and understanding of these cultures.

    • northeaster17

      As the balkinization of America takes a hard turn to the right.

      • HonestDebate1

        I’m not sure I follow. Maybe that’s my fault, I’ll try to clarify. I don’t believe any one race is intellectually superior than any other, therefore IMO legislating on the base of skin color does not equate to diversity of anything but pigment. I also don’t believe balkanization can be addressed with this practice or that it is the objective of the right. But mostly I cannot see the connection between diversity and the job of educating those who seek higher learning.

        • AnneDH

          All well & good that YOU, one person, believe in intellectual equality. The problem is that so many others don’t, and much earlier than at the point of college application.

          It really would solve the problem if all Americans regardless of race can grow up and live with other Americans with your point of view, but they don’t.

          I view it as simple natural selection- an instinct we have within us to trust only others like us, relying on historic events to back up our selection criteria- big mistake. Most of us can override that reaction, but many of us still can’t.

          • HonestDebate1

            Agreed but compliance through legislation is not the answer in my opinion.

          • TFRX

            That’s cute coming from someone who gets “default” on everything in this country.

            Being straight, white, male, and passing for Christian still gets you a leg up on a crapload of things.

            But I don’t expect you to know that.

            And the rural thing is the icing on the cake: Our media’s fetish for ruritania knows few bounds.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then.

          • jefe68

            It’s not alright, then or now.

          • HonestDebate1

            Okey dokey.

          • TFRX

            It’s never about him.

            Don’t waste your breath trying to have a real conversation with HD.

          • HonestDebate1

            What makes you the arbiter of who debates who? I thought you were sweet but you are now joining the few who butt in and not only attempt to stifle honest debate but also try to decide for others who is worthy of it. AnnDH may or may not agree with you but she is capable of making up her own mind.

          • jefe68

            You’re not debating. What you’re doing is pontificating opinions and some of them are worth being called out.

          • HonestDebate1

            Don’t hate, debate. It’s not about me.

          • jefe68

            And yet it is.

          • Ray in VT

            It is impossible to debate one who engages in the tactics that you do.

          • AnneDH

            Which is what I thought I was doing.

    • 12Gary2

      diversity is and has been way over sold. When folks are more homogenous a lot of things are no longer such big issues-Korea-Scandinavia etc.

      • anamaria23

        But this is not Korea. It is the USA built by a diversity of immigrants which is it’s appeal and beauty.

    • Ray in VT

      I hope that your second question is rhetorical, but I suspect that it is not.

      • HonestDebate1

        It is not but I ask it in the context of the first question.

        • Ray in VT

          That is not at all surprising, given many of your other statements and positions.

          • jefe68

            Hey, it’s not about him…

    • anamaria23

      Because the world is diverse and one needs to be prepared to live and work in the world as it is.
      My workplace is a sea of human variation -vibrant and interesting- a far cry from the white suburbia that I grew up
      in.

      • HonestDebate1

        Diversity does not begin and end with pigmentation. That is the least important factor of all.

        • TFRX

          The least important factor?

          Hahahaha.

          You need to wake up in a Rod Serling world where all the shady cops and sheriffs in NC are black.

        • Don_B1

          Except that its visibility makes it a readily “grab-able” handle to use to discriminate with.

          And that starts before the person has really begun life, denying anything approaching “equal opportunity.”

    • Charles

      It looks to me like many Americans see things as you do.
      We consciously (and subconsciously perhaps) divide ourselves into less diverse groups.

      Witness homogeneous exurban communities, where everybody has a white picket fence and white neighbors.
      Blacks are allowed, in theory, but there don’t seem to be any.

      From there you can go to your church, First Presbyterian, say. Lots of folks from the neighborhood. Blacks are allowed, in theory, but they’re at the AME in the ‘other’ part of town.

      Time for Billy to go to college. Wake Forest sounds great, surely some diversity there. Not so much? Blacks are allowed, in theory, but not many volunteer. The admissions department lets in a few of the best qualified to bolster the Universities’ profile.

      Your question was “what good is diversity” in the context of college. I contend that it’s really the only chance for many young men and women to experience diversity. Upper middle class white kids have spent a life sheltered from ‘others’ and many will return to it after graduation. If we are to be a heterogeneous society, it is going to be an incremental process, and it will take many more generations to get there. If we can get a few folks from each college class to see the merit of diverse opinions, perhaps that can accrete over the years, and we can start to move away from the kind of echo-chamber politics that have replaced genuine debate.

      • HonestDebate1

        I agree that people tend to self segregate. I played music on the road for decades and bars tended to be black, white or hispanic. In Myrtle Beach, SC there is a white bike week and a black bike week. There are n rules, it happens on it’s own. I do not advocate that at all, quite the opposite. I hate the idea of hyphenated Americans but it is encouraged by many. I think there should be no reference to race in any law. I think it should be illegal for the government to require you to state your race on any document including the census.

        And I see your point but don’t agree with your generalizations regarding who does and doesn’t live sheltered lives… unless you live in someplace like lily white Vermont.

        I whole-heartedly endorse your view that there is much merit to diversity of opinion but I fail to understand what that has to do with skin color.

        • Charles

          I concur that race should not be referenced in law, in a perfect world.

          But it’s our horrible history of race relations that made this mess, and we have to deal with the hand that’s in front of us, so to speak.

          I fully believe that these problems can be solved, and perhaps affirmative actions are not going to be the solution, in the end, but I think they are a step in the right direction.

          It’s important to remember in these discussions that as recently as 150 years ago a significant portion of American residents were enslaved. Even as recently as 50 years ago they were being systematically subjugated in parts of our country. Thus it shouldn’t come as a surprise that we are still working through these issues, and it will remain as such for some time to come.

          • HonestDebate1

            Fair enough. I look at it a little differently and think a half century after we became equal under the law is time enough to disavow any notion of more laws to give advantage to one race over another. So I disagree with you but can respect your view.

      • hennorama

        Charles — good points, all.

        You may already be familiar with the book The Big Sort: Why The Clustering Of Like-Minded America Is Tearing Us Apart, by Bill Bishop, with Robert G. Cushing. It discusses may of the issues you described.

        You can read more about the book, including reviews and excerpts, here:

        http://www.thebigsort.com/book.php

        Mr. Ashbrook and On Point have also had multiple shows related to this book.

        See:
        http://onpoint.wbur.org/2008/06/03/americas-cultural-clustering

        http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/06/06/snob-zones

    • TFRX

      Go ask some of your racists white southern friends.

      Oh wait: You don’t have any, do you?

      • HonestDebate1

        I would never consider anyone who is a racist as my friend.

        I’m curious though. Why is the accusation of racism aimed at whites and southerners? There are plenty of racists in the North and plenty of racism in the black community. It’s all equally hideous. Can we at least agree on that?

        • TFRX

          Whenever a rightie says “Can we all agree” on anything, I just laugh at them.

          You’re not curious, but I’ll answer anyway:

          As an athlete would put it, “Scoreboard, dude!”

          That’s the right’s base: The affronted white not-urbans. It’s so important to their electoral success that they need to suppress other voters to keep winning.

          • HonestDebate1

            I didn’t say all, I was asking you.

            How do you keep people from voting unless they are stupid as hell?

          • TFRX

            You called black people “stupid”.

            I’ll take that as a win.

          • HonestDebate1

            No but you just did. Case closed.

          • TFRX

            It’s a good thing not all white rurals are as poor at reading comprehension as you are.

          • HonestDebate1

            If your position is blacks are somehow more susceptible to voter intimidation because they’re black then it’s you that is implying they are stupid.

        • Ray in VT

          What do you consider the racists whose black on white crime numbers that you cite? It doesn’t come from any FBI report that I can find.

  • Human2013

    We are not prepared to have an enlightened conversation on the need of Affirmative Action. Affirming action in society to amend for a heinous past is crucial to achieving equality.

    • HonestDebate1

      Revenge serves nobody.

      • Human2013

        Is that what Affirmative Action represents to you – Revenge. No revenge would be bloody. They merely ask that they be afforded an opportunity, despite their unpreparedness, to attend the best schools in their country. They ask that the government to affirm action. Action that helps mend the continuum of education that their “white” peers enjoy.

        • HonestDebate1

          Revenge doesn’t mean bloody. It’s just payback. I inferred “amend for the heinous past” as payback. Apologies if that’s not what you meant.

          Preparedness has no color.

          You lost me with “mend the continuum”.

          • Human2013

            My friend’s grandmother grew up in rural Georgia and never learned to read or write. This is not a great grandparent, but his mother’s mother. I will safely assumer your grandparents could read and write and thus you benefited from the continuum of education in your family. We are closer to slavery than we care to admit.

          • HonestDebate1

            Actually neither of my paternal grandparents could read or write. I don’t associate those abilities with skin color but thanks for the clarification.

            Also, one of the smartest people I’ve ever known in terms of logic and common sense cannot read or write. But he can fix anything from an air conditioner to a tractor. He can wire a house and plumb it to. He can predict weather as good as any meteorologist. He is a problem solver. He’s amazing.

        • hennorama

          Human2013 — you will have difficulty maintaining a reasonable discussion with the individual to whom you replied until you can agree on the definitions of particular words. He has his own lexicon that is not widely shared, as you can see below.

          Best wishes with your merry discourse.

  • Markus6

    I’ll say the obvious. How much and for who and based on what. Should blacks where all their ancestors were slaves get more than blacks where half the ancestors were slaves? And are you paying these modern day blacks for the misery of their ancestors, even though it’s that misery of being stolen from africa, that’s given present day blacks better opportunities (I assume the vast majority would rather be here than Africa). And what about blacks who came here recently from the islands, or those who are part other races? Do you get into the math of assigning each race a number that gives them a benefit or discount based on how much their ancestors at some period of time got some advantage or disadvantage.

    Or maybe you just go by outcomes. Pick a half dozen or so outcomes like income, total assets, health, standardized test scores, whatever and rationalize it by age and assign numbers to each individual that can be used to get ahead of others in hiring, going to better schools, getting paid more, whatever.

    I understand that well meaning people feel we should right the wrongs of the past and the present. And it feels good to do something rather than nothing. But like LBJ’s great society, feelings need to be balanced by practical decisions about what is attainable.

    • John Cedar

      You’re making a huge mistake if you see this as driven by “well meaning people”. Most of it is driven by misandry, hatred for white people and revenge. The selective empathy of the do-gooders is telling.

      We have men under represented in colleges and in obtaining degrees. None of the do-gooders care about that. we have men over represented in prisons, but while the do-gooders notice the prison population discrepancy by race, they ignore gender. If it were not for the fact that Asians suffer the most from the discrimination of affirmative action, then all objectors would be loudly labeled as racists simply for objecting.

      • Ray in VT

        “Most of it is driven by misandry, hatred for white people and revenge.” Sure it is, pal. You’ve really seen through the veil. Congratulations.

        Perhaps you would care to provide some evidence of historical or present evidence of systematic bias in college admissions against men? Perhaps you would like to, once again, take issue with the research that shows that minorities are arrested and convicted at higher rates than whites, and are also sentenced to longer terms for the same crimes?

      • OnPointComments

        Don’t forget liberal white guilt as one of the primary drivers.

    • brettearle

      Your creative analysis, while absorbing, cannot overlook what you have only briefly touched upon:

      The symbolic gesture behind Affirmative Action [AA] is an admirable Moral Standard.

      I think that it’s to America’s credit that AA is part of its social/cultural/legal policy.

      However, I do agree that if AA is being abused–whereby the eligibility of Men and Women for matriculation and employment is being seriously compromised–then there needs to be a secure monitoring system, in every situation where careful choice is essential.

      `Careful monitoring system’ may sound hollow–but such a procedure must be in place, anywhere, for AA to be preserved, ethically.

      AA can be vilified for its misuse. But its basic foundation is praiseworthy.

      • HonestDebate1

        I agree that originally the symbolic gesture behind Affirmative Action is an admirable moral standard. However, I don’t think symbolism trumps substance or that good intentions trump results.

        • Ray in VT

          Your comment seems to assume that Affirmative Action did not achieve results.

          • TFRX

            Well, if one person says “We still need it” that means it didn’t work for everybody.

            And if one bigot affhole still hates the imaginary black student who got his kid’s spot, that’s everyone’s fault but the bigot’s.

            Remember Texas? That poor middle-class white girl Abigail Fisher?

            Yeah, her lawyers didn’t say “being white kept her out of UT.

          • Ray in VT

            That was an interesting case, considering that it was reported that a number of more minorities who were more qualified than her were also denied admission.

          • TFRX

            Where are their lawyers?

          • HonestDebate1

            At this point it is causing more harm than good.

          • Ray in VT

            Well, I’m glad that you’ve settled that for us all.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re most certainly welcome. Carry on.

          • Ray in VT

            Yup. I always love to learn new facts about what it is like in whatever alternate reality in which you live.

      • Human2013

        Thank you for pointing out the symbolism of AA. While President Obama may or may not have benefited from AA, there is no doubt a connection between his occupation of the White House and this program. If it only serves as a program to integrate/diversify college campuses, than that is enough, regardless of individual outcomes. Something strange happens when people of different backgrounds come together; they soon realize that they are one in the same — human.

        • brettearle

          I can’t fully agree with what you have said.

          First, you are not sure that the President has benefited from AA.

          I doubt, very seriously, that the President has. Although I could be wrong.

          Second, you say, “If it only serves as a program to integrate/diversify college campuses, than it is enough, regardless of individual outcomes.”

          Individual outcomes, I think, DO matter, when it comes to this kind of prior-selection process.

          • TFRX

            Total tangent, but: Individual outcomes do matter, however they do less so for Whites (like me).

            How many white kids have to be overtrained with SAT prep courses and admissions coaches, then drop out of college before we rip everything up and make sure there are less of them “ruining our colleges”?

            Whites get to fail as individuals.

          • brettearle

            Can you tell me, more specifically, what contrast you’re drawing?

            I realize that you expected me to pick up your inference. But I’m not sure that I did.

            Are you saying that darker skin students don’t have the advantage of pointing out to the academic world, where the admissions standards and where preparations for admissions acceptance are going wrong, individually, for African-Americans?

            But that Caucasians do?

            Am I, at all, close to the distinction-difference you were trying to draw?

          • TFRX

            Nah, it’s not just about making the “art” of admissions better for all involved. (Hey, if it were a “science” I’d call it that.)

            I’m using it as a jumping off point where I, as a white middle class suburbanite, have the luxury of just going about my life without someone saying “they’re not representing their race well”.

            Most all the politicians and businessfolk I can’t stand are white. But I get to say “They’re idiots and fools”, and not “if they don’t shut up they’re going to set the cause of white people back one hundred years”.

            That burden is something I don’t want. White folks, even ones who aren’t connected to the levers of power, get to represent themselves and themselves alone.

            Hope I filled in the blank areas.

          • brettearle

            Are you, at all, of the opinion that cultural differences can influence test outcome–both course test and aptitude test?

            And, if so, do you see any way to account for this or reconcile this–with regard to diversity and academic acceptance and achievement?

          • TFRX

            One, yes.

            More importantly, there is no disconnect between these snapshot SAT scores and the mainstream media brainwashing wherein there’s always room for the story of that one kid’s SAT scores as prima facie evidence that they deserve that one spot (even if that anecdote has to be created).

            Two, there’s a way, but if the perfect solution were in place already we wouldn’t need this hour.

          • brettearle

            When I was much younger, I fared average, or below average, in a basic skill.

            Indeed, in this skill, I never did much better than average or, sometimes, A Prairie Home Companion, `Above Average’.

            And yet, today, I have received national attention, for primary use, with this skill.

            That fact, alone, tells me something about Achievement and Destiny–and many obstacles, therein.

            Had my skills been recognized–either by human or written examination–or self-recognized earlier, I might have saved decades, in the Excavation.

    • Jeff_in_Connecticut

      “..even though it’s that misery of being stolen from africa, that’s given present day blacks better opportunities (I assume the vast majority would rather be here than Africa)”

      This is twisted logic.

      • Markus6

        I started answering this, but really, the logic is so obvious, that you’ll either understand it or you won’t.

    • TFRX

      The segue from “blacks whose ancestors were slaves” to “maybe you just go by outcomes” is leaving a big hole in the history of racism.

      I’ll take the “well meaning” and “feels good” as the David Brooksian “compliments” they’re meant as.

  • Steve_in_Vermont

    Affirmative Action has been around since 1965 and the days of LBJ. We have other long lasting programs, the war on drugs and poverty being two examples. If, after all these decades, these programs have not achieved their goals perhaps we should ask ourselves if they can be resolved at all. Since we are discussing AA the question for me is what will constitute “success” in this program, at which point it can be ended, and has this program become “enabling” rather than helping?.

  • Bigtruck

    I love how all the white guys have decided that it is time to get rid of Affirmative Action.

    • HonestDebate1

      Do you think blacks universally approve of being considered inferior and in need of help through legislation? Many intellectuals such as Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Ward Connerly and others have been offended by it for decades. Skip to 2:50 if you’re pressed, for the relevant exchange but it’s all good and the complete show is also available if you look for it.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26QxO49Ycx0

      • TFRX

        Your reading comprehension fails trying to twist that into “consider blacks inferior and in need of help through legislation”.

        But don’t worry–you’re white, so people probably just think of you as rustic and wise.

        • HonestDebate1

          People think I’m an idiot, cool.

      • Jeff_in_Connecticut

        “Do you think blacks universally approve of being considered inferior”

        Supporting affirmative action doesn’t mean that one believes that blacks are inferior.

        • HonestDebate1

          I think it does.

          • Jeff_in_Connecticut

            yikes

          • jefe68

            What is amazing is this chap will defend his position over and over again and when you point out that he might be coming from a position based on a racism he will get all hot under his collar.

            And then you get comments such as this, which seem to remove all doubt.

          • AnneDH

            Who knows if he speaks the truth of his beliefs or merely enjoys the reactions he’s getting?

          • jefe68

            That’s a good point. Except that HD has been saying the same things about race for well over a year or more. My take on it is there is definitely a racial subtext in how the language is used. In some cases it’s pretty clear what the intent is.

          • HonestDebate1

            Believe it or not, it’s not enjoyable to be labeled a racist day in and day out. My comments are sincere.

          • Ray in VT

            Perhaps citing white supremacist “research”, then, might not be the best course of action.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are confusing me with the racist Hennorama.

          • Ray in VT

            Nope. She has tracked down your claims to their racist origins, as have I. It’s truly a cesspool where some of your positions have spawned.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t go to such sites. Hennorama does.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s right. You get your racist “research” second hand, which totally absolves you from any sort of culpability. Ignorance is your defense, then? You have plenty of it, but it isn’t a defense. It’s not honest debate.

          • HonestDebate1

            Nice try but spectacular fail. The stats come from the FBI anything else is second hand.

          • TFRX

            You’re a nation of one.

            Demographically you represent a statistical non-entity.

            In the idea that your opinions are not incredibly insightful, or representative of a meaningful number of people who otherwise would be voiceless: Who cares what you think?

          • AnneDH

            WHOA NELLY! What’s been inferior is how they have been treated/educated throughout their lives due to discrimination yet they have the intellectual potential to earn a college degree & maybe beyond.

          • HonestDebate1

            Then be intellectually honest and demand reparations or something other than the notion of lowering standards so they can excel. If you advocate lowering standards then how does the square with the idea they are not inferior?

          • Ray in VT

            That isn’t a surprise.

          • anamaria23

            Affirmative Action was meant to level the field for all the years of slaves providing free labor so that whites were able to accumulate great wealth and pass it on to their children. Black families were deprived of the opportunity to accumulate wealth, thus after abolition started out with little or no material resources to get ahead compared to the vast wealth of some whites.
            This, combined with laws of segregation, not visited upon poor whites, impeded the road to fortune.
            The psychic assault is still playing out.
            One day there will only be one “race” as humans intermarry.

      • Bigtruck

        Of course I could put up other videos of people refuting your video, but why?… It’s simple premise, one can’t take a child that goes to a sub-par school and put him at the same starting line as a child that went to an elite school and expect them to compete. By doing so we are creating a master class that by any definition is un-American

        • HonestDebate1

          If your premise is that schools that educate blacks are universally sub par then you should support (if you don’t already) school vouchers like the majority of blacks do. Beyond that putting any student in a school they are not equipped to excel in is not doing them a favor.

          • TFRX

            “If your premise”

            Reading comprehension fail. Are you a legacy, or naturally self-taught ignorant?

          • HonestDebate1

            Both.

      • Ray in VT

        Thomas Sowell, the African American who has criticized desegregation efforts because even under Jim Crow some African American schools did well? Awesome.

        • HonestDebate1

          I notice you had nothing to say about what he posited and instead pin balled off to your out of context framing of something you say he said. Can you do any better than that?

          • Ray in VT

            I think that it helps to contextualize his views regarding some other civil rights era actions. His opinions on that matter help to frame the context of his thought process, which I think is questionable, especially considering him contributing a blurb to some dolt who peddles his “epidemic” of black on white crime narrative on racist radio stations.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll take that as a no.

          • Ray in VT

            My current PC isn’t capable of playing it. If his contention is that people of African descent are not inherently inferior, then I agree with him. If it is his contention that government action to attempt to ensure more equal treatment is either unnecessary or shows that people think that people of African descent are inherently inferior, then I disagree, and I think that there is ample evidence to support my positions.

          • HonestDebate1

            If you didn’t look at it then why reply?

          • Ray in VT

            Because I think that taking into account that the man has been critical of desegregation, and upon the basis of “well, look at these couple of schools that did well”, is important when considering other views regarding government action in the civil rights arena that he may also have.

          • HonestDebate1

            Then present them in context and debate them honestly rather that laughably expecting anyone to take you seriously,

          • Ray in VT

            I think that I did.

      • nj_v2

        Right, affirmative action exists because blacks are “considered inferior.”

        And Clarence Thomas is an intellectual.

        It’s possible to leaern so much from this forum.

        • HonestDebate1

          Exactly!

    • Jeff

      I didn’t realize Clarence Thomas was white.

      • Bigtruck

        You didn’t?

        • Human2013

          He is under the skin.

          • TFRX

            I wouldn’t know that I’d say that.

            But as a white suburbanite, I’ll say that if there were only one person of my race on the Supreme Court, I would grieve if it were someone so intellectually incurious and dismissive of his own history as Thomas is.

          • Jeff

            I would be glad that an individual on the Supreme Court wouldn’t allow himself to be apart of the racial group think that is far to prevalent in our country. I wouldn’t judge him or anyone by their skin color.

          • Bigtruck

            do you have a mirror?

          • TFRX

            So, I’ll put you down for “Happy to have Steven Breyer as the only white SCJ” group.

          • Jeff

            There were times when Irish and Italians were considered minorities…under that consideration then only Roberts and Breyer are the “white men” on the court. I’m perfectly okay with 1 white male being on the court…as long as the other candidates were chosen because of their abilities rather than their skin color.

          • Bigtruck

            OK, but that is a silly consideration. There was a time that anybody that wasn’t an American Indian was a minority.

          • Jeff

            Yep, and they’ve been fighting terrorism since 1492.

          • TFRX

            You’re living in a lala land of privilege. And you don’t even realize it.

          • Jeff

            Yeah, sure…I’m asking for equal treatment of all people not based on skin color but you’re suggesting I’m living in a land of privilege.

          • TFRX

            Hahahaha.

            Keep thinking that, bub.

          • HonestDebate1

            So all of the sudden skin color does not matter? Or does the notion of diversity of opinion in the black community offend you?

    • Steve_in_Vermont

      So is it your opinion that if a white person decides AA should end they are racist? That they are incapable of looking at this issue objectively? What, then, do you call a black person with the same opinion?

      • Bigtruck

        Someone that has probably already benefited from the program.

        • TFRX

          Someone who benefitted from AA wants to end AA?

          Hey, the Clarence Thomas thread is over there, pal.

          (I’m deadpanning here, I hope you realize.)

    • jefe68

      It’s also interesting to note how some people seem to think it’s OK to talk about people of color with so much indifference and when confronted with the possibility that racism is in the background, they fen the reverse racism meme. That somehow whites are being treated unfairly.
      Or they make the kind of comments one sees above.

      • HonestDebate1

        Three cheers for the notion of being indifferent to race!

        • Ray in VT

          Now, if it just wasn’t for all of those lazy “urban” people.

          • HonestDebate1

            Lazy doesn’t have a demographic,

          • Ray in VT

            True, but conservatives often seem to only want to talk about the lazy “urban” people who need to get a job. That message doesn’t seem to get directed at the non-brown segments of the population.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s your bizarre interpretation. I’ve never seen anyone on this blog say blacks were lazy but the accusation is leveled all the time. I don’t recall the word urban bandied about either. You have a wild imagination.

          • Ray in VT

            I didn’t say that you, or anyone else here, did. Are all of America’s conservatives here, although this is not a blog.
            My imagination is fine, although I don’t need to make anything up in order to make you appear prejudiced against various groups. Your comments do all of that work for me.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — you’re getting somewhat off topic here, but if you are referring to Rep. Paul Ryan, he was specifically discussing a so-called “tailspin of culture,” not laziness:

            In response to a question from noted “culture warrior” Bill Bennett, Rep. Ryan said there is a “tailspin of culture, in our inner cities in particular, of men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work.”

            You see, it’s not that these men “in our inner cities in particular” are necessarily lazy, according to Rep. Ryan, it’s that “generations of men [are] not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work.”

            [One supposes the cure for this is not jobs, but instead to simply think about working, and to learn more about "the culture of work."]

            The next day, Rep. Ryan, much like his 2012 running mate Mr. Romney said in regard to his “47 percent” remarks, stated that his remarks were “inarticulate.”

          • Ray in VT

            Ah yes, “inarticulate”. Translation: I said something really boned-headed that really ticked a bunch of people off, but I didn’t really say what my comments would lead you to think that I said.

  • OnPointComments

    I can imagine the commentary if the recent Supreme Court decision had been about a state below the Mason-Dixon line, and the subject of this show was Banning Affirmative Action: The Southern State Story.

  • TFRX

    Tom, time to “think of the children”.

    In this case, Abigail Fisher in Texas. Remember her?

    I want you to ask people to prove every white person who’s claiming “reverse discrimination” this hour that their cause would have been admitted if it weren’t for affirmative action. Can you do that for us, as a journalistic exercise in completeness?

    “There were people in my class with lower grades who weren’t in all the activities I was in, who were being accepted into UT, and the only other difference between us was the color of our skin,” she says. “I wastaught from the time I was a little girl that any kind of discrimination was wrong. And for an institution of higher learning to act this way makes no sense to me. What kind of example does it set for
    others?”

    It’s a deeply emotional argument delivered by an earnest young woman, one that’s been quoted over and over again.

    Except there’s a problem. The claim that race cost Fisher her spot at the University of Texas isn’t really true.

    In the hundreds of pages of legal filings, Fisher’s lawyers spend almost no time arguing that Fisher would have gotten into the university but for her race.

    …Yet for all the front-page attention, angry debate and exchanges before the justices, some of the more fundamental elements of the case have been little reported.

    Race probably had nothing to do with the University of Texas’s decision to deny admission to Abigail Fisher.

  • creaker

    One of the reasons for affirmative action was to counterbalance actions that worked the other way (discrimination). Affirmative action is being dismantled, but discrimination based on race and gender is alive and well. Racial and gender preferences will continue but just more often in the vein of pre-AA preferences.

    • anamaria23

      And also the consciousness still lurking within this generation that just some 60 years ago, blacks were considered too inferior to share facilities, schools, housing with whites. It will be some time before that consciousness completely dissipates.
      It is interesting that people of color not having ancestral ties to slavery seem to suffer less the wounds that prejudice and oppressiveness of that nature produce.

      • creaker

        Although we don’t call it a caste system in the US, a lot of the same rules apply.

  • creaker

    So if the goal is “fair”, when are they going to dump legacy admissions?

    • TFRX

      Or the points I get in Ann Arbor from being a Yooper.

    • Jeff

      “Fair” means different things to different people, the correct term is equality…the key being that we treat all people no matter what they look like equally. If they have other life experiences, family connections, athletic ability, talent in general then that is a part of that individual’s character…which we should judge them on, rather than the color of their skin.

      • creaker

        I never realized family connections determined a person’s character. Oh wait, that’s actually a major foundation of prejudice. Never mind. I get it.

        “Your SAT scores stink, but you come from the right place – so you’re in and that other person who placed better clearly has inferior connections, so they’re out”

        • Jeff

          You don’t think your family has an influence on your character? When I reference “family connections” I mean family connections with the university, i.e. legacy, parent is a professor, grandparent was a star football player at the school.

          • creaker

            Statistically, maybe – individually, no – but just because my family went to a particular school doesn’t automatically mean either they or I have “good” character. But legacy admissions do not take that into account.

          • Jeff

            So if I could show you that legacy students had higher graduation rates than non-legacy students, would you consider that a proper factor in college admission?

          • creaker

            If graduation rates are a criteria. Should family wealth also be a factor then, since graduation rates are affected by financial issues?

          • TFRX

            Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.

            Score -1 for the richies.

    • chrysanthemum

      This has nothing to do with affirmative action. Also most people against affirmative action are against legacy admissions. But they don’t have legacy admissions in the UC system or Michigan because they are public schools. Private schools have the freedom to do whatever they like.

  • OnPointComments

    ŸŸ–Since Michigan banned discrimination in college admissions, the black graduation rate at U-M Ann Arbor has risen from 71 to 78 percent

    –According to the extensive research of UCLA law professor Rick Sander, the effect of Prop 209 — a similar ban on race preferences passed by California voters in 1996 — has been to increase the number of minority graduates overall despite reduced numbers of minority entrants at elite Berkeley and UCLA…four-year graduation rates for blacks at UC San Diego, for example, have doubled from 26 percent to 52 percent
    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/376448/content-their-character-henry-payne

    • Ray in VT

      This paper concludes that lower rates of top minority students were accepted under Texas’ 10% plan than under Affirmative Action:

      http://users.nber.org/~cortesk/econed2010.pdf

      Under the 10% plan, where a far lower rate of minority students, especially from the lower academic segments, was accepted, minority graduation rates also declined.

  • Matt MC

    On a practical level, I think affirmative action is still needed to correct centuries of institutionalized imbalances. Think of how much the fair skinned have gained in mere inheritance alone. Simply having so much wealth transfer for so long has given us (generally) an enormous advantage.

    Is affirmative action the best solution possible? I’m not convinced it is. I’ve always been struck by how paternal and somewhat insulting it is, “You poor minority. You can’t compete all by yourself, so we’re going to give you special consideration.” Were I a minority, I might find it insulting, despite the fact that I might benefit from it.

    With that being said, I’m also not pleased with the odd corrections it requires. For instance, (and there was a previous On Point about this) that affirmative action actually disadvantages Asian students because they over-perform.

    Let me end my rambling to say. I think we still need affirmative action, but I also think we can find creative ways to make things more equitable, e.g. to give poor students advantages and to correct economic injustice more generally. (I realize, this will not have as great of an effect as affirmative action, but it points us in the right direction).

  • Human2013

    “in memory they are equal to the whites;

    in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid;

    and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.”
    Thomas Jefferson
    Thank you, Mr. Jefferson. You so kindly influenced generations into believing that somehow there is a connection between skin color and intellectual ability that will persist for millenium — thank you. You denied your slaves the ability to read and then so astutely pointed out that they can’t interpret Euclid — Bravo.

  • Fiscally_Responsible

    Would those who argue for affirmative action support instituting that policy for the NBA and NFL?

    • Jeff

      Or the NHL? It sounds ridiculous in any other context, but for college admission we just accept it. Talk about intellectual dishonestly. We want the best, it’s just that simple…I don’t care what color people are…just get the best you can get in sports, school, jobs, whatever it is.

    • Ray in VT

      Have some evidence showing that athletes from a particular group are not getting a fair shot there?

      • twenty_niner

        Just look at the outcomes! It’s the outcome that matters. Isn’t that what the Left is constantly demagoguing? You must be inferring that Asians are genetically inferior when it comes to athletic ability.

        • Ray in VT

          Fast gets you drafted in the NFL (for WR or CB). Most of the fastest guys coming out of college haven’t been Asian.

          • twenty_niner

            That’s why the NFL needs affirmative action. When I sit down to watch football on Sunday, I would prefer that the racial makeup of the teams match that of society. Plus, I’m sure the teams with more diversity will dominate. The NFL just needs a nudge in the right direction. That’s what the state is good for!

          • Ray in VT

            So, again, do you have some evidence that certain groups in the NFL don’t get a fair shake, as has long been the case with some groups as regarding employment or admissions?

          • Jeff

            What do you mean “fair”? This whole college admissions discussion is creating an unequal system where some racial groups can get lower scores because of the color of their skin. The affirmative action in sports would mean accepting slower, less talented individuals because they fill some quota or because of their skin color….sounds ridiculous in any other area doesn’t it?

          • Ray in VT

            Taking only scores into account is also a form of bias, considering the various factors in a students life that affect those scores, such as school and family resources. Some of these policies are attempts to control for those factors.

          • Jeff

            If we can’t use grades and test scores we might as well throw out the window the entire idea of measuring a student’s success.

          • Ray in VT

            Who is advocating such a course of action? I am merely saying that they aren’t the be all end all in measuring a student’s ability, and colleges attempt to recognize that and take into account factors that also play into those scores.

          • twenty_niner

            Yes, just look at the outcome! Plus society has a racial bias that Asians don’t make good athletes. They’re more suited for violin and math. This is only something that can be corrected with affirmative NFL action.

          • Ray in VT

            That isn’t evidence, as has shown to the be case regarding employment discrimination and the like when it comes to African Americans for instance.

          • twenty_niner

            We’re talking about college admissions, and the evidence is that college administrators are looking for ways to increase black and Hispanic enrollment; it’s just that the electorate is not down with racial preferences and is over-ruling the colleges.

          • Ray in VT

            So, is it your contention then that minority students have or do get an entirely fair shake when it comes to college admissions? And by that I mean that basically qualified and able students from various ethnic backgrounds fair equally well regarding the likelihood in being accepted?

            Many things have not been popular with the voting public, and some critics of the recent ruling charge that the court is ignoring 14th Amendment protections that essentially serve to prevent minority rights from being voted on or denied by 50% plus one of whoever shows up on election day.

          • twenty_niner

            “So, is it your contention then that minority students have or do get an entirely fair shake when it comes to college admissions?”

            Rest assured, academia is full of liberals. When they’re not in the fetal position, they’re trying to diversify the student body.

          • Ray in VT

            What an incredibly productive and insightful answer. You must have really torn it up when you ran up against those fetal position-having academia liberals.

    • TFRX

      Wow.

      You can edit your entries any time you wish, bub.

  • twenty_niner

    Why not reverse affirmative action? Let’s take some high-performing Asians and Ashkenazi Jews and put them in community college or at least some party schools to open up slots for lower performing students. There will be more diversity in the party schools, and the new smart kids will come up with ingenious drinking games!

  • bzelbub

    Now that the Supremes,have deleted affirmative action requirements can the government now stop showing preference to Cubans? They have been coming to this country for decades and are no more special than any other central american immigrant. Big whoop that they live under the Castro regime. That was no reason to turn Florida into the spanish american state.

    • TFRX

      I was of the belief that Cuban expats are special. At least on the ol’ distribution curve.

      Didn’t the folks who left Cuba skew to the well-off and connected compared to many Central and South American immigrants?

      (That leads to a lot of people pointing at Cubans in America asking “Why can’t Latinos from (X) be like Cubans?”)

  • Eric Herot

    My issue with this is the extremely dubious practice of having the state determine what it means to be “black” or “latino.”

    Is a person with Jamaican or Indian national origin with very dark skin considered “black?” What about a very light skinned person of African origin?

    Race is a completely social construct. It has no legitimate boundaries. Any system of laws designed to give privilege to a single race will inevitably unfairly disadvantage members of another. Consider, for example, the many students of “Asian” backgrounds (such as Vietnam or the Philippines) who do not tend to come from wealthy or college educated families, and who tend to be penalized by any system of affirmative action.

    I think the real explanation for the continued color divide on the UC Berkeley is that they have not been willing to give *enough* of an advantage to extremely poor applicants.

    • twenty_niner

      Good point, so maybe just look at the *%$*ing test scores.

      • Eric Herot

        Unfortunately if you do that without also expanding admissions and improving high schools, you just make an already deeply economically skewed system even more skewed.

        • Ray in VT

          Plus test scores sometimes aren’t the best indicators of intelligence or the likelihood to succeed, which is part of what leads institutions to look at student activities and to try to get a handle on the intangibles.

          • Eric Herot

            Of course without test scores to go on, the process tends to get a bit more “subjective.”

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah. I think that they definitely have a place as a more objective measure, although I think that they can have shortcomings and biases. One can’t evaluate one’s drive or leadership ability from the SAT, and schools do look for those sorts of things.

          • TFRX

            Are there colleges who correct SAT scores for those who don’t hire SAT preppers?

            I mean, I’m old enough that that didn’t exist when I was applying. Now if one is “serious” one spends the money for it.

            Edit: I live in a suburb. Don’t want to think about the disparity between the considerations of two families, one which says “of course we’re test prepping” and the other, “I can try a test prep for my kid or buy new tires for my car”.

          • TFRX

            Merit, said the guest, is where you are compared to where you started.

            There’s just something in the merit shown by a kid who can point to a wing on the library and say “My grandaddy’s money built that”.

          • twenty_niner

            Obviously, but if everyone takes the same test, it’s an objective measure. This has worked well in India vis-a-vis IIT, which was largely responsible for the massive IT / Tech boom in India.

          • Ray in VT

            I take it that you are unaware of things like cultural biasing in testing, as well as how the availability of school and family resources, can contribute to differences in scores?

          • twenty_niner

            And then some people are just plain born wicked smart and wicked stupid. Who said life was fair? I thought diversity was a good thing.

          • Ray in VT

            Sure. Diversity is good, even with morons. That’s why they let people like Louie Gohmert into politics. Also, the things to which I am referring don’t really comment upon one’s intelligence, but, rather, other cultural or socioeconomic factors, unless you are contending that those who can’t afford SAT tutors and prep sessions aren’t poor but just stupid.

          • twenty_niner

            I’ve read the stats on SAT tutors. In the end, that $5K might buy you 10-50 points.

            Further, all of these resources are online now. You can study for the SATs to your hearts content free of charge.

          • Ray in VT

            And if your family doesn’t have the money for a high speed internet connection and a connected device? Is one stupid then?

          • twenty_niner

            But they have an xbox and a big screen. At some point, maybe you’re not ready for an elite institution, but the good news is there are plenty of other options.

          • Ray in VT

            So you’ve checked on all of those people? You must be a busy man(?).

          • TFRX

            More than a whiff of the Graem Frost Game: “Making sure the poors aren’t wasting my money and until they all prove it, any one is suspect”.

        • twenty_niner

          What, you don’t want to work for a Chinese guy? Study harder.

          • Eric Herot

            Studying is not just a matter of will power, it’s a matter of skill and environment. We need to make up for some of the disparities in access.

          • twenty_niner

            Certainly, factors that start the day after birth. Do the parents speak proper English or do the say, “aint got no”?

  • twenty_niner

    Now that higher ed has a surplus of women, will there be affirmative action for men?

    • Ray in VT

      For many of the selective colleges men get accepted at higher rates than women. In some cases it is that many more women are applying.

      • twenty_niner

        Come on Left! These are easy stats to find:

        Brown University
        51% are female, and 49% are male.

        Cornell University
        49.8% are female, and 50.2% are male.

        Dartmouth College
        1,100 are men and 1078 are women.

        Harvard University
        51.5% are male, while 48.5% are female

        Princeton University
        50.7% are men and 49.3% are women

        University of Pennsylvania
        51% are male and 49% are female

        http://theivycoach.com/2015-ivy-league-admissions-statistics/

        • jefe68

          Why Do Women Outnumber Men in College?

          http://www.nber.org/digest/jan07/w12139.html

        • Ray in VT

          Yet that says nothing about the gender rate, which is what I mentioned. The stats here are a couple of years old, so year over year numbers are not given, but many of the selective colleges admit men at a higher rate than women, so how does that fit into your comment about the need of men to have affirmative action?

          http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/the-gender-factor-in-college-admissions/2014/03/26/4996e988-b4e6-11e3-8020-b2d790b3c9e1_story.html

          • twenty_niner

            It’s called irony; I really don’t support affirmative action nor other similar liberal ideas such as outcome-based analysis and political correctness.

            Also,

            For the current graduating class of 2013, the Department of Education estimates that women will earn 61.6% of all associate’s degrees this year, 56.7% of all bachelor’s degrees, 59.9% of all master’s degrees, and 51.6% of all doctor’s degrees.

            Personally, more power to the women, and maybe to the outcome-obsessed Left, this is also great because anything that knocks white males (and Asians) down a peg is probably a good thing.

          • Ray in VT

            Sure, it’s all about getting the white guys.

          • twenty_niner

            And Asians.

          • Ray in VT

            Sure.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — it seems fairly clear that you are referring to different points, and there is no meeting of the minds, unfortunately.

  • Eric Herot

    Why does everyone pay so much attention to the complexion of the student body but basically ignore the even more stark disparity of their economic backgrounds? Wealth is the single biggest determining factor in America of your likelihood of going to college.

    • Jeff

      So why wouldn’t affirmative action simply be “wealth” based or economic status of your parents based instead of skin color based…that’s still perfectly workable even with this ruling.

      • Eric Herot

        Indeed that’s what UC Berkeley is doing right now, but they’re just not doing it enough.

  • M S

    It’s funny how some of these new, Chinese arrivals are opposed to Affirmative Action, but when we Americans who are opposed to the mass influx of immigrants, they are all up in arms. Just goes to show that the country is balkanizing and these immigrants have no understanding of American “fairness”. We may be on the course to civil strife.

  • MurielV

    Race is far from the only preference that is given to some students in college admission. All private colleges (which are subsidised by the government as not for profit organizations, i.e. they pay no taxes) practice affirmative action not just based on race and no one seems to be willing to tell them either you stop all types of affirmative action or you lose your not for profit status and start paying taxes. Those who benefit are legacy children (children of alumni); children of professors; children of potential multi-million donors; athletes; etc. So why focus on race alone? These private colleges are not public institutions but they do receive a lot of public dollars (if only in the form of no tax dollars)

    As long as there is no universal way of comparing students throughout the country based on a universal curriculum taught throughout the nation with a similar level of quality throughout the nation, there will be no way to compare students based on merit only.

    What is needed in this country is a quality K12 education system together with a solid univerval quality pre-school system that does not put rich kids at a great advantage relative to poor kids.

  • George Fisher

    I am a WASP American citizen who just got a Masters degree from MIT. If 50% of my class wasn’t Asian, then it was 65%. And I’m not talking about kids from Brookline; these kids came directly from China (mostly) who learned their English in high school (you try taking math in Mandarin sometime). Scary smart and hard-working; admirable.

    The American mythology is that of meritocracy but outside MIT I don’t see much of it. We restrict admissions in the name of diversity and we restrict post-graduation employment with stupid visa laws.

    We should focus not on diversity but on competence in our high schools. If graduating high school seniors can’t get into MIT then it’s the fault of the high school and the social environment in which they operate. THAT is what needs fixing.

    • Human2013

      What you describe here is thousands of years of Confucius and Taoism philosophy in the east. Here in the West, we take our lead from the “good book,” and so we worship a deity rather than putting that energy into our own enlightenment. The East is fundamentally different from the West. There’s also something to be said of our form of Capitalism — the message is higher pay, not higher education.

      • Jack

        Last time I checked, Christianity emphasized individual betterment, attainment of wisdom, and hard work. Also, last time I checked, institutionalized Taoist reverenced immortal beings and ancestors; Confucianism also revere Tian as though a single monothesitic deity. I’m not really sure, therefore, that your comments make sense.

        • Human2013

          Is that what Christianity advocates? I see very few Christian leaders spending their time advocating for better schools and the enlightenment of our children. Instead, they spend their time denouncing homosexuals, birth control and abortion. While the two have fundamental beliefs, lets talk about what they do in practice, in the real world.

          • Jack

            In the first place, your comment did not state that you were referring to a (very) selective group of (very, very) recent religious leaders; rather it was, to my reading, defining the locus of difference in the worship of a singular deity without any presumed emphasis on “enlightenment” (itself a very nebulous term) vis-a-vis the supposedly inwardly directed focus of Eastern Religions. Now, if you want to have this other conversation, we can, but as it relies on highly anecdotal claims without sufficient data from the alternative exemplar, it seems unwise to proceed down that course of inquiry at this time.

          • Human2013

            It’s never “unwise” to inquire about the fundamental differences of people with or without sufficient data. The point is that we often compare American students to Asian students without consideration of culture and religion. If we want to understand the academic success of Asian students, than we need to delve deeper into Eastern and Western Philosophy.

          • Jack

            You misunderstand me: it is unwise to make comparisons based on insufficient data. It is also unwise to compare two unlike things, in this case a selective group of Christian clergy from the current century v. general Taoist and Confucian teaching. In addition, I think your methodology is mistaken in that you should be looking at lived religion among Asians generally. Of course, it does nothing for your theory that the Communists attempted to suppress Taoism and Confucianism during the Cultural Revolution on the grounds that both were little more than peasant superstition.

    • G McC

      Excellent point.

  • Megan_A

    If we want our college student population to reflect the general population, then why don’t we include affirmative action for male students? Female students are taking up an increasingly unproportional percentage of spots in our schools. Males are underrepresented, but nobody is arguing that we should start denying spots to women in favor of less qualified men.

  • Lou

    Asians go to the same schools as blacks and Latinos. Gary Orfield is a liar.

  • Bill98

    If the issue is with the quality of the elementary and high schools that a student attended, why not just use that in considering students for admission? Instead of assuming that everyone of a particular racial or ethnic group attended a bad school, target those folks who actually did, no matter who they are.

  • njcs

    If it is not a quota, then what it is? how to make it transparent and fair? how much points as being a particular race?

    • OnPointComments

      At the University of Michigan, there is an 80-point scale used for admission. A perfect standardized test score is worth 12 points. Black and Latino students are granted 20 points on the basis of their race.

      • njcs

        I would have no problem with it as long as it fair and clear, and I like the considerations of all aspects not just the test score. I immigrated from China, that’s exactly what we do there, minorities and poor get additional points. So merely being minority and poor won’t get you to the university, you know exactly how much advantage you have. As a majority as myself, well you have to work even harder. and I believe that’s fair.

  • Lou

    The quota is 1. Orfield is a liar.

  • Lou

    Orfield is dodging the question.

  • Eric Herot

    If it’s really about coming from a disadvantaged neighborhood school, why don’t we give preference to *THAT* instead of race? Almost anything would be better than using race.

  • Adam

    Why isn’t tuition and the ability to pay being talked about? I wonder what segment pays more out of pocket in cash and what segment relies more heavily on scholarships, grants etc.? It seems impossible that the schools are not somehow complicit in keeping affirmative action sidelined.

  • Lou

    So those Vietnamese kids have parents in the 1%?

  • Eric Herot

    The “it’s not a quota” argument is BS. If you have a limited number of slots and you give preference to one group over another, you have created a de facto quota.

    • OnPointComments

      At the University of Michigan, there is an 80-point scale used for admission. A perfect standardized test score is worth 12 points. Black and Latino students are granted 20 points on the basis of their races.

      • TFRX

        And Yoopers get the same.

  • Lou

    Gary Orfield is an anti-Asian bigot

  • Lou

    Here is the proof Asians go to the same schools as Latinos in CA

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/16/local/me-lincoln16

  • Lou

    Latino kids grew up calling Asian kids “chinitos” in schools instead of studying. There is no bigger myth pushed than Latinos are somehow shut out of educational opportunities. I went to majority Latino schools in CA.

  • Richard Hussong

    I think a major part of the problem is that schools all attempt to get the “best” students, so they end up chasing the same few good test-takers and valedictorians. One way to escape this trap would be to evaluate all applicants for adequacy only, i.e., whether they are qualified to attend, and would be likely to succeed. Then, from the pool of all qualified applicants, they could choose students completely at random, thus eliminating bias toward or against any ethnicity and guaranteeing that their student body would be (at least statistically) reflective of their pool of reasonably qualified applicants.

    Since it is unreasonable to expect a college to accept students who cannot succeed there, this seems to be the best they could do if forbidden to take ethnicity into account in admissions.

  • Joe

    UC ADMISSIONS 2014: Latinos surpass whites for first time.

  • Lou

    Affirmative action supporters are the ones living in the 1950s, 1950s demographics.

    • jefe68

      I think you mean the 60′s. Affirmative action was enacted in 1965.

  • OnPointComments

    California Proposition 209 — passed with 54% of the vote:

    “The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.”

    It’s difficult to believe that some oppose this.

  • OnPointComments

    Affirmative action: if a group was discriminated against in past generations, a random person of the same race as the oppressed person will receive a privilege while a random person of a different race will be penalized.

    The sins of the father are to be laid upon the children.

  • njcs

    There’s a much bigger issue here. Most time when children failed that because their parents failed them. So instead of asking for admission, why not try to be more responsible parents.

  • AliceOtter33

    This issue is another example of the chickens coming home to roost.

    The elephant in the room is economic inequality. Race and ethnicity are important, but by no means of monolithic indicators of economic disadvantage – at least, not any more.

    At a time when universities everywhere are plumping up their administration salaries on the backs of dead-end, no-benefit adjunct professors and tuition increases, and lots of relatively wealthy (i.e. paying) international students, it is a disservice to do away with affirmative action altogether. Why not reform it?

  • Joe

    The fuzzing math of SCA5 :
    It is number problem, but not a quota problem.
    It is critical mass problem, but it is not mass problem

  • Lou

    Growing up in LA, the Latinos kids called their studious Latino peers “schoolboys” and nerds. Prof Munoz won’t address that.

    • jefe68

      Why should he?

  • Joe

    The education problem in California is high school education

  • njcs

    Gosh, can’t believe what I heard. If kids can’t get graduated from high school, then you address this issue in high school, not in university!?

  • Joe

    UC Riverside, UC Santa Barbara have successful diversity programs without SCA5

  • Joe

    your speakers must stop accusing other people as ignorant and stupid

  • Lou

    Orfield is a master of dodging questions.

  • Joe

    Your speakers are inflaming the debate. Please listen to the supreme court.

  • Joe

    your speakers are spreading fear and anti-asian hatred

  • Joe

    speakers are most extremely one sided.

  • Shantanu Das

    The fundamental reality is this: US as a country will be better off, the
    more it is a meritocracy… and ideally everything should be based on
    merit (jobs, promotions, scholarships and education). There is no place
    for ‘reservation’ or ‘affirmative action’ when it comes to determining
    merit. Yes, minorities should get ALL the help they can during their
    formative years (from pre-school onward) so that they are similarly
    prepared as Asian Americans (Chinese, Indians, Vietnamese etc..) so that
    they can compete on the same playing level. Stop cribbing about your
    community if your community does not take responsibility to make
    sacrifices and if your students prefer doing something else (girls,
    music, unthinkables) other than hard work and studying.

  • Joe

    Your show is blaming asian population

  • Joe

    Tim Asbrook, you are racist

    • TFRX

      Not worth flagging.

      SImply worth more to let it stand, like the “Dewey Defeats Truman” edit of the ChiTrib.

      • jefe68

        This Joe chap seems to be pretty pissed off.

      • hennorama

        TFRX — is there a correlation between the number of characters in the moniker, versus the number of characters in the post?

        IOW, twitting twits with Twitter habits?

      • hennorama

        TFRX — now we see that flagging was unnecessary, as [Joe] has self-censored the comment in question.

  • Stephen706

    so the answer to the high achieving minority is to discriminate against them to allow the less achieving majority into the premier state schools??? That makes NO sense!!!!

    And discriminatory!!! And hypocritical

  • Joe

    Your speaker are so oblivious of the supreme court decisions.

  • Markus6

    I’m a broken record on this subject, but every time I hear professors talk, especially those outside the hard sciences, I cringe that they’re in a position to influence kids.

    They never see the other side. They are purely advocates and pick data that only supports their side of the argument. My guess is that this is how they teach. And I wonder how much of what we see and hear is because this is what passes for critical thinking today.

    • jefe68

      Your comment alludes to the mindset that “kids” in college don’t have the intellectual compactly to question what some of their professors might be teaching.

      One would hope that people do learn to acquire critical thinking skills in college or better yet in high school, to make up their own minds.

      • chrysanthemum

        It’s kind of hard when even during this program the professors alluded to the fact that white people who disagree with them are racists.

        • jefe68

          I did not take what was being said by some of the guests to mean all whites are racist if they did not agree with them.
          Also I remember being in a class in college with a professor with a serious agenda and I do remember he was open to dissent. In fact he welcomed it.

          There are a lot of factors into why some minorities seem to do better than others.
          Within the Asian community there are some interesting statistics between Korean, Cambodian, and Laotian high school students. The same and be found within the Latino and some Northern African immigrants.

          http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/education/news/2011/05/12/9600/moving-education-beyond-the-model-minority-myth/

          • chrysanthemum

            The professors kept also saying “yes, but not all Asians are the same!” to derail other arguments. I agree but I think if anything that’s just more reason not to use affirmative action.

          • jefe68

            Not all Whites are the same either.

      • Markus6

        Not at all. But ya gotta figure that professors have influence on kids thinking, otherwise why are they there.

        Speaking biologically, boy’s higher brain functions aren’t mature til 22 to 24 years old. Girls at an earlier age. A doc friend who researches this told me one reason is myelination. This is overly simplified, but Myelination, among other things, makes higher brain functions easier – things like thinking two or three steps in the future (if I drive to the party and I’m going to drink, I may be stuck with my car in the wrong place).

        Net of all this. Sadly, profs have a lot of influence.

    • Jack

      Never mind the fact that such an assertion itself is based on selective anecdotal evidence and may belie a lack of sustained critical thinking on the topic. I’m just wondering how many non-natural science professors you know personally. Have you ever had any in your home?

      • Markus6

        Admittedly, it’s anecdotal. But if we only allow comments that derive from valid scientific studies, you’ll get two comments per show. But a couple things.

        I’ve been in academia, have family members who are profs and as the saying goes, some of my best friends are profs – both science and not. But that’s a relatively small group and has its’ own biases.

        So, think of the shows you’ve listened to just on this program. How many have you heard where the non-scientific prof gave the other side? I’m going by memory, but shows on equal pay, the war on women, gay rights all had academics who only gave one side. Do you disagree with this part, at all?

        But I shouldn’t pick just on the non-science fields. If you see a show on climate change, you get the same thing.

        • Jack

          I will agree with you on your points, but I suppose the question whether this is because the program only invites academics with selected viewpoints or because academics only have these views. Clearly, the latter is not the case, so the response must be the former. Based on the evidence at hand (previous episodes) we cannot say “all academics see only their own side,” but “the academics who have appeared on this program never see the other side of the argument.”

          • Markus6

            Good point.

  • Joe

    Your speakers are equally racists

  • njcs

    So how about a quota for every ethnic group that immigrated from different parts of world? British, french, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Jamaicans, Nigerians, Jews, Arabs, etc… Every one got a representative quota? Are you satisfied my dear professor? Then what about mixed race group? what about the people who don’t know their origins? this discussion is purely bizarred.

  • Salina

    Shouldn’t the correct framework to look at this be what we can do to the school system – high school and K-12 education for Latinos, Blacks and any other disadvantaged groups to prepare them properly for a university education? Even Prof Munoz said that the reason why Latinos are underrepresented in universities is that they have not been properly educated in high school to help them qualify for admissions. Does fixing the ‘end result’/ the symptoms of a problem (via affirmative action) really address the real problem here which is the education system (K-12) for disadvantaged groups?

  • chrysanthemum

    Professors Munoz and Orfield pointed out much better than I could how silly and old fashioned the pro-affirmative action position is at this point. Every time someone pointed out an inconsistency they just danced around the question. When Professor Munoz ended with a crack at the white power structure after spending an hour talking about Asians I had to laugh.

    • Jeff

      That’s the problem with academia, they live in a bubble where their ideas are never challenged and every soft science professor teaches about white privilege and no one is there to challenge them on that issue. The scary part is that nearly every single teacher from kindergarten to 12th grade is spouting that same viewpoint to our children so they can’t even see the real world until age 22-23.

      • Jack

        Jeff, please don’t lump everyone into academia into one basket. That’s like saying all Republicans hate minorities or rich people hate the impoverished. It’s one of those things that sounds like it should be true but denies the variety of individual views and experiences. While only anecdotal, most of my colleges and acquaintances have much more nuanced views on topics like race, but you don’t hear from them because our society has devolved into two polar opposites screaming at one another across the middle. For a relevant example, see Fox News v. MSNBC.

        • Jeff

          When I make a generalization it’s for short-hand conversational purposes only. Sure if you had evidence disputing my comment that a vast majority of professors in soft sciences don’t agree with far left liberal ideas, then I would gladly listen and take a look at that evidence. It’s the same as saying “the American people support the Keystone XL Pipeline”…which is shorthand for the recent ABC poll which found that 65% of Americans are in support of the pipeline while only 22% oppose it…that’s 3-1 support. I just don’t think we need to get down into the gritty details of specific numbers for every single comment made, when the overall comment has to do with a separate point about academia being closed minded and unable to deal with viewpoints outside of their world.

          • Jack

            But that’s my point: saying academics are closed minded and unable to deal with viewpoints outside of their world is relevant to the point you are attempting to make: that some academics are close minded. But, then again, there are sub-populations within all groups who are closed minded, so in saying that, are we really saying anything. As you have phrased your assertion, it is implied that all academics are closed minded, which is not demonstrated. I’m not saying you have to be specific, merely that you should be precise.

          • Jeff

            That’s why I used the phrase “nearly every”.

          • Ray in VT

            Care to define “nearly every”, and having opinions and positions does not make one closed minded, as you seem to be suggesting.

          • Jeff

            Liberal distraction and tangent, “define” this or “define” that…it never ends with liberals because every word is dissected down to the point where we are having a conversation about what the meaning of the word “is” is. No thanks, I’m not going down your worm hole because any small child can give you the definition of “nearly every”. Perhaps you can even look it up in your dictionary that obviously liberals can’t figure out how to use because they ask others to “define” words constantly.

          • Ray in VT

            A simple no would have sufficed. I just would like to know what sort of ballpark percentage of college professors you think is just hopelessly biased and closed minded.

          • jefe68

            Hey Ray did you not know that almost all professors are liberals or worse, Maoist…

          • Ray in VT

            Obviously. ;)

          • Jeff

            75-80%+, just making a point about about the liberal thought process, tangent creating instead of discussing the actual topic at hand. Keep in mind I clearly stated, “soft science” professors.

          • Ray in VT

            Thank you. So, is it your contention that because professors hold certain political positions that they are “closed minded and unable to deal with viewpoints outside of their world”?

          • Jeff

            Oh very much so, at my local major University there were protests about having Condolezza Rice as a speaker at the school…they nearly banned her from speaking. That’s the open mindedness you’re talking about?

          • Ray in VT

            Sounds like you are using one case to condemn the whole. That doesn’t sound terribly sound reasoning.

            “Opponents cited Rice’s involvement in controversial wartime policies during George W. Bush’s presidency and her $150,000 price tag for the lecture.” and “The letter [signed by some faculty members] says Rice has every right to speak at the University but claims she’s unfit to speak about human rights because of her alleged role in approving the use of interrogation methods, like waterboarding, in her time in the Bush administration.”

            http://www.mndaily.com/news/campus/2014/04/17/protest-aside-condoleezza-rice-speaks-sold-out-crowd

          • OnPointComments

            As Rich Lowry wrote: “What would give anyone the idea that a woman who was the nation’s first female African-American secretary of state, who experienced Jim Crow firsthand during her childhood in Alabama, who was friends with one of the girls killed in the Birmingham church bombing would have anything relevant to say about civil rights?”

          • Ray in VT

            What would give one the idea that a top official in an administration that engaged in the sorts of activities that the Bush administration did, such as waterboarding and the like, should not get push back when speaking about civil rights?

          • Jeff

            It was simply 1 direct example. No matter the reasoning it is still an attempt to silence a political opponent.

          • Ray in VT

            So, speaking out against someone, based upon their record, while still acknowledging that one has the right to speak there, is “an attempt to silence” someone? That seems like a pretty low bar to me.

          • Jack

            And even that implies more than could reasonably be demonstrated.

          • jefe68

            You’re wasting your time. As you just found out.

  • cwu

    After 2050, minority will become majority, imaging we still have affirmative action to ensure that university campuses have the diversity representing the nation’s racial proportion.

    • anamaria23

      After 3000, perhaps, there will be no majority or minority.
      Humans will be all one “race” as we evolve and intermarry and as we are doing in greater numbers already.

      • hennorama

        anamaria23 — that is the ultimate fear of some very, very nasty individuals and groups.

        • HonestDebate1

          Since you have admitted you are a racist and your recovery is decades old and still unsuccessful, what is your view?

        • OnPointComments

          hennorama — that is the ultimate hope of some very, very nasty individuals and groups.

          • hennorama

            OPC — TYFYR.

            Can you give some examples?

          • OnPointComments

            Can you give some examples with your comment?

          • hennorama

            OPC — TYFYR, despite its lack of responsiveness. It is increasingly difficult to treat such responses with any level of seriousness.

            That said, specific examples shan’t be coming from me, as I have purged my computer of such references after a very deep dive into various white supremacist/nationalist/separatist websites. This experience was quite distasteful, and I have no interest in either repeating or promoting it.

            If you are actually interested, the search term “human mongrelization” will lead you to many such sites. I do not recommend the experience, however.

            Alternatively, you can search using any of the three nearly indistinguishable terms encompassed in “white supremacist/separatist/nationalist.”

            Again, I do not recommend this course of action.

            You can also consider going to the Southerm Poverty Law Center website, or similar, as they have lists of such groups and individuals. Of the three, this would be the recommended pathway.

          • OnPointComments

            I remember having some information about the Black Panthers, and about Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, but I have also purged my computer.

          • Ray in VT

            I seem to recall Pat Buchanan bemoaning the dieing out of the “peoples of European descent from the steppes of Russia to the coast of California”. There was a Congressman who also said something about American decline being linked to the decline in the genetic stock of those who built America. I can’t find the quote, so I won’t even mention the name of the individual whom I think voiced that concern.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — while I vehemently disagree with Mr. Buchanan (who also uses the same pseudo-statistics we’ve discussed a number of times), I appreciate his frankness.

            Donald Trump (and many others) also made some related remarks, bemoaning the number of “European” immigrants to the US (advocating an increase, of course), and rather notably talking about his relationship with “the blacks.”

          • hennorama

            OPC — TYFYR.

            Was naming those individuals and groups intended as a response to my original question, which I hereby renew and clarify:

            Can you give some examples of “some very, very nasty individuals and groups” to which you previously referred, and will you please specify what you meant by “the ultimate hope of” those groups?

      • HonestDebate1

        My view is we are virtually there already. I know I have black blood in my white self.

        • Ray in VT

          You might want to get that checked out. You might have some sort of condition, as it should be red.

          • OnPointComments

            Who do you think he is — Elizabeth Warren?

          • Ray in VT

            Does she have black blood? She might be one of the lizard people from dimension X, then, because they just isn’t humanly possible, as far as I know.

          • OnPointComments

            She said she has red blood, although her assertion is unproven.

          • Ray in VT

            I’m pretty sure that we all have red blood.

      • twenty_niner

        No diversity?

  • Lou

    The political left has reached Tea Party levels of extremism when speaking about racial issues. All discourse now boils down to “white privilege” and “white supremacy”, even the topic of majority Asian-Americans schools is somehow related to “white power”. Makes no sense.

    • TFRX

      Tea Party levels?

      The less you post, the better you sound.

      • Lou

        So you think majority Asian-American campuses are reflective of “white privilege”?

      • hennorama

        TFRX — again, three letters.

        [Add: with the secondary characteristic of a middle o. A bit of a small sample size upon which to base any conclusions, of course.]

      • John Cedar

        Forgive.
        In some cultures its ingrained to hate the Tea Party and Fox News for stuff and things.

  • Lou

    Orfield and Munoz are uncomfortable taking about Asian-Americans because they spent decades pushing the critical race theory notion of “white supremacy” and a world where a non white minority can’t ever succeed. When they are finally faced with the reality of majority minority campuses in a post affirmative action environment, they simply dodge the question and give stock answers.

  • TRK

    Perhaps less of prevalent at state universities, but what about forms of non-merit based “affirmative action” that disproportionately benefit privileged groups: legacy status or the ability to make what one development officer at my alma mater called a “well timed six-figure donation”?

    These forms of admissions leverage tend to assist white / highly
    advantaged groups more minority or disadvantaged groups, yet I rarely hear complaints from parents when their kids receive this kind of non-merit addmisions preference.

    In any year, there are more well-qualified students than there are seats for admission. Many students, be they white, Asian, Hispanic, African-American or other, who are not in the very top tier academically – and thus less deserving of admission based purely on merit – will nevertheless thrive. Preferential admission base on legacy, large cash donations or, yes, race give these students a chance to prove themselves.

    • chrysanthemum

      This is such a canard. First, private universities are free to do whatever they like and have nothing to do with this debate. Second, most people who are against affirmative action are probably not huge fans of legacy admission either. Legacy admissions are a very small portion of any given class. And while most legacy admissions are white (and I know this might shock you), most white people didn’t donate a library to Princeton. The whites and Asians who take the most offense to AA programs are the ones who AREN’T in a position of privilege and resent being lumped in with people who are just because they share a similar skin tone.

      • John Cedar

        One big difference about t legacy admissions, which is much small number than AA admissions, is that the university actually GETS something out of that deal. At a minimum its full sticker price for tuition but more often a donation is involved too.

        BTW…private universities can’t be sued over discrimination?

        Other than that…quit making sense!

    • OnPointComments

      There’s a difference between an institution choosing to consider legacy status or large contributions in a fraction of admissions, and having the government (whether state or federal) mandate that race be a factor.

    • twenty_niner

      We can counteract that. For every kid who’s Dad made a donation, accept a kid who’s Dad robbed the university.

    • John Cedar

      Rich guys get hotter girl friends too.
      When is the government going to address THAT?

  • Lou

    The caller from Tulsa pointing out the success of Vietnamese-American kids and Orfield’s subsequent dodging of the question is emblematic of the false racial debate pushed by the Orfields and Munozes of the world. The caller simply asked “is it fair to say there’s too much of you” and Orfield dodged the question and wouldn’t answer it. He should be ashamed.

    • hennorama

      Lou — quick question: how many separate posts in which you indicate “Orfield dodged the question” do you intend to write?

      • Lou

        93749105728501047

        • Ray in VT

          That’s going to take a while. Good luck.

          • Lou

            As an Asian-American graduate of the UC system, I’ll use the magical “white privilege” bestowed on me to help me out.

          • Ray in VT

            Seems like a daunting task, but maybe you can reach your goal in a few centuries, assuming, of course, that you’re going to try to post them all manually.

          • Lou

            I’ll ask my Asian-Americans friends in Silicon Valley help me out by writing some code. It’s the least they can do since they owe all their success to “white privilege”.

          • Ray in VT

            Also, my comments were meant as good-natured joking. I just thought that I should make that clear.

        • hennorama

          Lou — thank you for your response.

          Are you intending to prove the accuracy of the saying “The third time, plus another 93,749,105,728,501,044 times, is the charm”?

          • Lou

            I plan on doing it for every time a civil rights activists spoke about affirmative action and left out Asian-Americans. So if anything I’m shorting myself.

          • hennorama

            Lou — thank you for your response.

            That’s interesting. You plan to indicate “Orfield dodged the question” each and “every time a civil rights activists spoke about affirmative action and left out Asian-Americans”?

            Curious, that.

          • Lou

            Well as a born and raised Asian-American Californian, I have read over a decades worth of news stories and editorials which completely ignored the existence of us in the 209 debate. I need to “level the playing field”.

          • hennorama

            Lou — TYFYR.

            Interesting. So, regardless of the context, you plan to indicate “Orfield dodged the question” each and “every time a civil rights activists spoke about affirmative action and left out Asian-Americans,” because you “need to ‘level the playing field.’ “?

            Did your UC studies include any courses in logic?

          • Lou

            Did the school of reality ever teach you when people are being are being facetious?

            And speaking of logic, people like Orfield have repeatedly talked about the lack of minorities on the UC campuses which is 25% white. So I can ask the same question of people like him.

          • hennorama

            Lou — TYFYR.

            I infer from your response that you were being facetious in your replies.

            Is being facetious otherwise known as “dodging the question”?

          • Lou

            So you apparently didn’t like me repeatly referring to Orfield’s dodges but your okay with all of Orfield’s dodges. And you are also okay the same tired responses from Orfield that he has said on Talk of the Nation and Tell me More amongst others.

            So my repeating self needs to be validated to you but he doesn’t.

            Guess we are part of the same hypocrisy.

          • hennorama

            Lou — TYFYR.

            Nice dodge.

            Please show everyone where I wrote any of the things you have inferred.

          • hennorama

            Lou — after you respond to my polite request below, please answer the question that was asked. As a reminder, it remains:

            Is being facetious otherwise known as “dodging the question”?

        • John Cedar

          Lou, thank you for taking a moment to repeat your brilliant point, as I don’t get a chance to read all comments here and this is the first time I have seen yours.

  • HonestDebate1

    “I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    • OnPointComments

      Some commenters might consider that to be a racist statement.

    • Ray in VT

      That’s a great statement. It’s just too bad that we aren’t there yet, in part because ingrained perjudices and inequalities still exist. Affirmative Action was conceived as one way to attempt to ensure that all people got more of an equal chance to sit at the table.

      Dr. King also supported social justice, and he said this:

      “A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him.”

      • twenty_niner

        I know. I don’t think we’ll ever see a fully black president in my lifetime, only half black.

        • Ray in VT

          I think that there are some very long-standing tendencies to give some sort of preferential treatment to lighter skinned African Americans than darker skinned ones.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s sick.

          • Ray in VT

            It certainly is, but it is the way that it has been for a long time, although perhaps now it is less, hopefully, than it once was.

          • HonestDebate1

            Don’t project that bigoted view on me, you can have it.

          • Ray in VT

            I was doing no such thing, and I find it interesting that you would assume that I was addressing it towards you. Of course you are totally above all of those social prejudices and subtle constructs that quietly influence us.

            I think that your comment history betrays where your bigotries lie. Take, for instance, your fear-mongering about race and crime. It’s telling to me that you would swallow some “facts” from groups with pretty blatant prejudices and just pass them along no questions asked.

          • HonestDebate1

            I didn’t say you were aiming it at me. I was distancing myself from the hideous notion. I am certainly above it, you’re right about that.

          • Ray in VT

            Sure, pal. Pretty much everyone has prejudices, and all the totally non-prejudiced people run out white supremacist “research” on blacks and crime, right?

          • HonestDebate1

            My prejudices are directed at liberals of all colors. You seem unconcerned with the fact that given the population disparity a white person is far [edit: far far far] more likely to be the victim of a violent crime perpetrated by a black than vice versa. It’s so bad you just scream that the fact is racist with is truly bizarre.

            http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/18/larry_elder_vs_piers_morgan_on_rachel_jeantel_zimmerman.html

          • Ray in VT

            Well, if I was committed to holding false beliefs and spreading lies, then I would likely also be prejudiced against them darned lib’ruls and their facts and such that poke massive holes in my b.s. arguments.
            African Americans are about twice as likely to be the victim of a violent crime where the perpetrator was white than vise versa. I bet that your racist sources don’t tell you that. Gotta keep whities fearful of those brown people. It’s a profitable industry from some right wing media outlets.

          • HonestDebate1

            And they are but 13% of the population, a caveat that I include every time. Run the numbers. You are not honest about my claim but you never are.

            And the “Gotta keep whities fearful of those brown people” is just beyond stupid. Incredibly vacuous. The antithesis of what I believe. If you don’t see the constant drumbeat horrendously pounded in to young black’s heads that they should fear whites, especially in the South, then there are no words to describe your ideological idiocy. This is what race hustlers like Sharpton, Jackson and Obama make a living off of. This is your pathetic MO as you claim Southerners are lynch loving lunatics.

            You are not a serious person.

          • Ray in VT

            Please cite the FBI report that claims what you claim (39 to 1). I have been unable to find it. I have run the numbers, and the hilarious math run by the racists you cite distorts the situation. Your lack of honesty about where you even got your claim is telling.
            Yes, my comments about your North Caroliney justice were made totally earnestly. Hey, you’re the guy who suggested that a guy didn’t need a trial, and your state is the one with a long history of the sort of “justice” that I mentioned. It must suck to have one’s dishonest tactics turned against oneself, as what is good for the goose is not good for the gander it seems.
            I have implied no such thing. You are incorrectly inferring. I have merely pointed out the connections and shoddy reasoning promoted by some individuals whom you seem to like. How’s that comparing the NAACP to the KKK and calling the NAACP racist? Still playing well among the long-standing best friends of African Americans: white southern conservatives.
            You are not a serious person.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — as your merry discourse seems to be ended, a few observations, if I may be so bold:

            You seem to forget that the individual to whom you replied is in the “No Apology” camp, and cannot acknowledge error.

            This same individual seems to believe that if the perpetrator(s) and victim(s) of a crime are of different racial/ethnic groups, the crime and the perpetrator are therefore examples of racism. This belief leads to the seriously simplistic idea that any disparity or disproportional rates of offending or victimhood means that one or more racial/ethnic groups are “a danger to” another group.

            However, that one holds erroneous and simplistic views does not in and of itself mean that such an individual necessarily is bigoted, racist, biased, etc. toward any particular group, despite having made repeated, omniscient statements about various things that “Blacks are …”

            Please pardon the interruption, if this was one.

          • Ray in VT

            I believe that you also forgot to mention the statement that all inter-racial crimes are hate crimes, so really it is white people who are most often the victims of hate crime. I think that your last paragraph contains some valid points. I have my doubts about claims to be unprejudiced, given the comment history.

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude, Hennorama said she was a racist. Jeffe refuses to endorse MLK’s views. And you say “WE” all judge darker skinned blacks more harshly. I don’t need a lecture from you.

          • Ray in VT

            Sure they did, bub. Please tell me where I said what you say that I said. You need a lecture from someone who isn’t Rush Limbaugh or the New Century Foundation, but I guess that it’s just easier to stick with those who reinforce your biases and prejudices. There is also likely an institution of higher education somewhere near your location with some informed individuals who can correct your many misperceptions, but you probably wouldn’t accept what they have to say, as you won’t even accept what various dictionaries say. Truly sad to be so misguided yet confident.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are the racist, to me. You have no standing. And quit rewriting what I wrote.

          • jefe68

            That’s sick…
            Alrighty then…

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s just not the same when it merely imitation without substance.

          • jefe68

            Exactly, I was alluding to the lack of substance in your comments. Are you comprehending my drift?

          • HonestDebate1

            Can you repeat it slower?

      • jefe68

        Watch out, the phrase social justice will bring on the wrath of HD. Who uses Martin Luther King, Jr’s legacy for all the wrong reasons.

        • Ray in VT

          I know. That’s why I used it.

          • jefe68

            Well, at least he did not go off on you about social justice. He went ballistic when I used it.

        • HonestDebate1

          Are you ready to endorse the above quote that you refused to previously?

          • jefe68

            You really have some serious comprehension issues.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll comprehend that as a no.

          • jefe68

            You do what you want.

            That was not a no. It was a statement about how you have comprehension problems that lead you to make the most absurd conclusions and in particular when the topic is about race. You are not even aware of how racially tinged most of your comments are. That in and of itself speaks volumes about you. Even though you keep saying it’s not.

          • HonestDebate1

            You say “racially tinged” like it’s a bad thing. I don’t shy away from brutally honest discussions about race because of a fear of being called a racist. I am fully aware of the potential knee-jerk reactions I fearlessly welcome in my quest for honest debate.

            I just don’t know what’s so hard about condemning the notion of judging people by the color of their skin. I have been asking liberals this for decades. The vitriol you delivered is typical. Liberal policies judge people by the color of their skin but they cannot bring themselves to openly oppose MLK. You are no different. The fact that MLK is the only Southern Baptist black preacher liberals will ever praise tells me you and your ilk are using his legacy insincerely. I am not afraid to embrace his views without caveats.

      • hennorama

        Ray in VT — it’s true that we aren’t there yet, and it’s also true that “the content of their character” is an ineffable and subjectve factor in regards to the college admissions process.

        • Ray in VT

          It’s hard to tell “the content of their character” from an SAT score, so I think that it is a good idea to attempt to get that broader look at the person.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — TYFYR.

            Exactly, as virtually all admissions processes strive to do. One cannot be evaluated solely by objective test scores, or subjective factors.

        • HonestDebate1

          I was not suggesting college admissions be based on content of character. I was suggesting we stop judging people by the color of their skin as self admitted racist like you do.

  • twenty_niner

    “I understand that for the myriad advantages and privileges that I enjoy as a white middle class person, this seems like a small price to pay”

    You’ll be a shoo-in for a senior position at one of the re-education camps.

  • SREM

    I have a UC flyer I received from my kids’ high school listing the course-load recommended to gain admission to a UC, and among other things, it lists 4 AP courses senior year. The UC admissions process is rewarding a philosophy of childhood that doesn’t match mine, and most of the people I know. I am not willing to trade my kids’ childhood for admission to a UC. Although my son has a 4.6 GPA, and is in honors level courses, he will not get into a UC, because he hasn’t loaded up on AP courses, we will not be paying for SAT prep, and he is not going to do 2000 hours of community service. We place value on free time, family time, adequate sleep, and being a well-rounded person overall. I see that other cultures are more comfortable with their kids spending every free hour of the day preparing for their college application. and don’t feel that their children are missing out on what I would consider a normal, healthy childhood. My husband and I are exploring the possibility of two years at community college, followed by two years at a private college in California.

    • hennorama

      SREM — that is a reasonable and reasoned idea, especially if your children do not have a clear idea of their ideal career. The community college years can allow for a relatively inexpensive exploration of various interests, and also a relatively inexpensive way to get required classes on the way to a higher degree, once a pathway is selected.

    • disqcoduck

      So, fun, leisure, rest, are priorities over good grades and hard work. There is real honest sacrifice, and hard work needed to succeed academically, like anything else in life

      I’m not saying that your priorities are wrong. But there are consequences of not investing in the future. Each of us has to set our own priorities, but also accept the consequences of our decision.

      There are tons of great and free SAT prep materials available online and at the library. SAT prep classes are absolutely unnecessary; just like you don’t need a fancy personal trainer to get in shape.

      Good luck and good wishes.

      • SREM

        At our local high school, it was necessary to start an after-school counseling and support group for stressed-out kids, because our school counselors, trained in academic counseling, not psychology, were overwhelmed by the number of kids showing up in the office in a state of emotional breakdown, exhausted and overwhelmed by their workloads. With zero period (7:00 a.m)., sports and extracurriculars, volunteer time, then hours of homework from AP courses, these kids are trying to get by on 5 hours of sleep per night, and at some point midyear, they start to fall apart. It’s become a real concern in our community. Trying to avoid that with my own kids, but feel kind of like a salmon swimming up stream sometimes.

        • disqcoduck

          We have a HS freshman at home. I’m highly sympathetic since I know I was not under the pressure and demands that today’s HS kids are under to earn a place at a good university.

          This is the unfortunate fact of life in today’s ever more competitive world.

          The stakes are also higher than ever. The same forces thinning the middle-class mean that kids have to really excel in order to be on the success track.

          I feel bad that the kids are under so much pressure these days. But I would feel even worse if, as a parent, I did not open their eyes to what’s demanded of them, and to help them prepare to achieve their future dreams.

          • SREM

            So true…my husband and I both attended UCs without all this stress! We’re going to aim for a reasonable life- balance for our kids…They will get into a good college, just probably not a UC. It’s been encouraging that private colleges are reaching out….merit scholarships, etc. My son is thinking he might like the smaller setting of a private school.

          • Iraq veteran

            There’s also the options of apprenticeship. If you haven’t considered it, there are many careers out there that offer them and they are very stable careers that one can live a pretty good life.

    • Iraq veteran

      Then what do they do when they graduate? My girlfriend graduated from the University of Colorado two years ago. She still has to work at Chic-fil-A because no one will hire her without experience. 26 years old and put herself through college with grants and loans on her back. Her BA in psychology just sits there on the wall in our apartment because, for now, that’s all it’s good for.

      • SREM

        Yikes…that’s terrible! I’m not there yet…my oldest is 16. I can only hope he will find work when he’s done with college. I’ve heard the Bachelors degree is the new high school diploma, and the Masters is the new Bachelors, etc. Don’t know how much truth there is to that, but it could be employers are looking for that advanced degree these days. Still, I doubt your girlfriend is going to want more debt, especially when there is no guarantee of a job when all is said and done. Sorry for your frustration.

        • Iraq veteran

          Im just trying to make a point is all. College just isn’t what it used to be. We are both hopeful for the future. She’ll be able to get a job eventually. When my situation with the VA improves she will be in a position to actually volunteer or intern to gain her experience.

          • SREM

            Best of luck to you both.

      • hennorama

        Iraq veteran — that is unfortunate, and points to a college degree no longer being a guarantee of future gainful employment.

        If she is open to suggestion, perhaps she might consider a topic from yesterday’s On Point show: Life Coaching.

  • Susan Page

    See yesterday’s LA Times: “California Latinos surpass whites in freshman UC admission offers”

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-uc-california-latinos-surpass-whites-20140421,0,7289404.story#ixzz2zpGf7J00

  • Sy2502

    So now we are going to start discriminating against Asians? Oh boy…

    • warryer

      Its the discrimination of the successful by the mediocre.

      • Sy2502

        Honesty I am going to call things with their name whether people like it or not. Asians have had it tough in this country, think of the Chinese immigrants that built the railroads, treated like animals, think of Japanese in concentration camps. The various civil rights and equality movements have always only concentrated on blacks, never on Asians. And yet, quietly and without external help, they have overcome their disadvantages and have become the most successful race in California. Is anybody maybe praising them, holding them as examples to other groups? Of course not! Bring up the Asian success and you are “blaming the victim”. Even worse, Asians are too successful? Let’s discriminate against them, that will teach them! It makes me sick.

  • Maureen from Boston

    The 10% of Latinos vs. 33% of whites that achieve a college degree implies a lack of success in the Latina community. But there are many successful Latinas such as Amanda Renteria who is running for Congress in the 21st district. She grew up in the Central Valley was a former high school teacher, Stanford scholar athlete and the first Latina Chief of Staff in the history of the US Senate. The major way we can effect change is through our votes. If Affirmative Action is a measure needed to close this gap in CA I trust that support for a candidate like Amanda Renteria will address this inequity fairly.

    • twenty_niner

      Again, Latino is not a race:

      In the 2010 United States Census, 50.5 million Americans (16.3% of the total population) listed themselves as ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 53.0% (26.7 million) self-identified as racially white.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic_and_Latino_Americans

      • Ray in VT

        It’s more of an ethnic group, and it is one with a great deal of diversity within it.

        • twenty_niner

          Understood. “Latino vs. White” is a ridiculous statement given that over 50% of Latinos in the country identify themselves as white.

          • Ray in VT

            It can get very dicey. Is David Ortiz Latino? Is Ted Cruz? Is Cameron Diaz? Some aspects of that group seem more tied to language or historical national origins. It also seems to be the case that in many Caribbean nations it is the lighter people, who have more European ancestry, who constitute a very large portion of the top strata of society.

          • twenty_niner

            Yes Mexico had/has a caste system with whitey (native Spanish) on top. Underneath are criollos and mestizos; at the bottom are natives and Africans. That’s how whitey rolls.

          • Ray in VT

            I think that during the colonial era there even full blooded Europeans born in the New World got placed somewhat lower than those who had been born in the Old World.

          • Miss_Lilianna

            lol

  • Guest
  • marygrav

    When it comes to Race, why do we always have to lie? K-12 is the most important schooling and segregation plays an important part. African American have always trusted the System too much; thus allowing their enemies to miseducate their children. Perhaps dejure re-segregation in education is the only answer since defacto is a failure.
    But what happens to the US as a united nation? How do we spread the propaganda of equality to the Third World? How do we face the Russians down when they apply their Affirmative Action in Ukraine?
    Culture and politcal will are two values Americans don’t understand.
    It’s funny how people come to the United States to better their lives are so critical of our laws, which makes equal access for their children an outlawed concept.

  • Lou

    The state of CA does not deny any educational opportunity to anyone.

  • Lou

    They keep repeating that quotas are illegal but yet constantly compare the UC demographics to the state population (which is irrelevant). Sounds like a backdoor quota system to me.

  • Anthony Vasquez

    This has been one of the best On Point episodes I have ever heard. Wonderful guests with very nuanced and carefully considered positions. Tom’s concern for fairness and equity really showed as well.

    • VinceD2

      And he open pro-Latino racism was clearly on display as well. Thanks Tom!

  • blue ocean

    When Tom pointed out at 36’40″: “..overall the UC-campuses today are admitting more students from poor families than before the ban”.

    Professor Munoz’s response was very clear: these factors are irrelevant. The only thing matters is Latinos! He definitely will not be satisfied until Latinos dominating US college. I would say the day will coming very soon, because Latinos are going to dominate in CA demographically in very near future.

    Cheers, Professor Munoz! Cheers, America!

    • VinceD2

      Para La Raza toto. Para los otros, nada… Now there’s some 100 proof racism for you!

      • blue ocean

        Thanks for your vote anyway. Words speak for themselves.

        • VinceD2

          Yeah, this pro-Latino racism is getting old.

          The Chinese kids are EARNING their way in to the schools, but the racists would rather cut ahead using AA.

          And how are we supposed to educate the “best and brightest” when AA prohibits the B+B from admission?

  • warryer

    fairness does not mean equality

    • VinceD2

      It depends on how you define equality. When Black, Latino and White families put as much emphasis on education as Chinese families do, they will be represented in the same proportions. Chinese culture demands that children learn, so they do. Why should they not reap the benefits of this culture?

  • Alchemical Reaction

    Being a disadvantaged lower middle class caucasian male who has been accused of being racist my whole life, even though I spent years in meditation and therapy overcoming internalized oppression, I must say Affirmative Action is unconstitutional, and it sucks! There are other ways to help minorities. How many minority scholarships are there? I have never once seen a “caucasian” scholarship.

    I also want to say the white guilt I have seen in many caucasian communities is toxic. When I lived in Harlem, I never ONCE felt threatened by African Americans. If anything, they went out of their way to help me feel comfortable living in their community.

    What we need is to see people, ourselves included, as individuals, NOT as members of a racial group.

    • jefe68

      And yet history proves you wrong.

      By the way, this comment: “I have never once seen a “caucasian” scholarship.” is not helping your argument.

      I’m not sure why you have been accused of being a racist your entire life, but clearly you must have given people cause to make those accusations.

      • Alchemical Reaction

        Whose history are you talking about??? The one in mainstream history books, the one on the history channel, the oral traditions of ethnic groups, the history sold by the media? Which history are you referring to?

        You know nothing about me, yet I MUST HAVE given people cause to make such accusations.
        I wonder, can you make any more assumptions?

        And the slaves MUST HAVE done something to be put in shackles, right? WRONG!

        Actually, it IS helping my argument. I went to a university that ONLY had minority scholarships.

        You see, it doesn’t feel good to be seen as a statistic. We are human beings, not statistics.

        • jefe68

          You’re the one who posted that people have accused you of being a racist.
          As to the diversity classes, well entitlement by white folk has a long history in this country and in particular in white males. You can deny this, you seem very angry about being asked to confront this historical fact. That’s your problem. I’ve been in classes like this myself and I have to say I was never made to feel guilty. But I was asked to realize the legacy of difference in our nations history and how it effected people of color and race. I’m Jewish and white, our legacy is also one that has dealt with prejudice and exclusion.
          There were quotas on Jews in the 1920′s up to 40′s and none on the Irish wanting to immigrate. During WW 2 this had some drastic consequences for all European Jews. I don’t begrudge the Irish for taking advantage of US policy as they did not write the laws.

          You can deny history all you want.
          From 1620 until 1865 slavery was part of our nations history. After the Civil War we had Jim Crow and the Convict lease penal system which was basically legal slavery.

          • HonestDebate1

            Ancient history, get over it. Nothing good comes from revenge.

          • VinceD2

            And many whites helped smuggle run-away slaves north. Many whites fought and died to free the slaves. Funny how that half of history is forgotten by many…

          • Alchemical Reaction

            What are you talking about? Since you clearly aren’t responding to anything I wrote, (I was in no way angry, nor even annoyed at being asked to examine (not confront) historical facts. I was annoyed at the claim that “all white people are racist by default” which is ridiculous.) It seems you are not really reading posts before responding to them, (which is a form of narcissism) so the conversation is boring to me. I’m gonna bounce. Good Luck!

          • chrysanthemum

            Yeah the Irish had it made when they came over here. If you’re Jewish, your family came to the US in the 20th century, and you let other people make you feel guilty for this country’s history of racism, you’re a dumb sucker.

  • Guest

    Super-intelligent Asians should continue to fill up these USA universities while the ban in Affirmative Action is here. Forget diversity. Remember, everything is race-blind now. Therefore, it is okay to have all USA universities to have 100% Asian students based on merit alone and not race. You asked for it. You got it! Go, Asians! Don’t wait. Enroll now, before they change their minds.

    • hennorama

      So sorry to see the individual who wrote this now having either disappeared, or disavowed the comment by trying to delete it.

  • disqcoduck

    “Diversity through Race Preference” is the new “Separate but Equal” of yesteryear.

    Unless there is tangible proof that somehow Asian-Americans cheated or got other special advantages to achieve the higher rates of admission, this is a fight for equality and fairness for everyone.

    Those who’ll argue that Asians don’t have a legacy of discrimination to overcome, they need to read the atrocious history of Anti-Asian in California. Just look up the phrase “Chinaman’s Chance”.

    Those who’ll argue that Asian-American are otherwise privileged in CA need to learn about the very recent history of Vietnamese, Hmong, Chinese refugees who came to this country with nothing and in one generation managed to transform their lives and their communities through hard work, sacrifice so that their children could make it to college.

    The so-called secret to success is pretty simple. Hard work, sacrifice, perseverance. Those who’ll do this will succeed regardless of race, those who won’t will decline, regardless of privilege.

    The race hustler will tell you otherwise. Arguing for a Potemkin Village approach to equality that does not help those who need it the most, and simply perpetuates the cycle of poverty from which they can continue to feed off of.

    • Alchemical Reaction

      My parents worked hard and sacrificed, yet only one of their kids was able to go to college and he doesn’t have a job right now. “Those who do this will succeed,” is a bit misleading.

      Economic and financial policy proves its mathematically impossible for all Americans to get out of debt. Only some can get out of debt and keep the system running.

      Racial scholarships of ANY kind are wrong, white, black, etc.

      • disqcoduck

        Going to a good college is not a guarantee of success. Going to a lesser college is also not a barrier to success.

        You overlooked my point of “perseverance” as a factor to success. This is probably the most overlooked point. Failure is an option, and can be a great learning opportunity.

        I’ve personally failed numerous times, and each time I became wiser and gained something that enabled my next step upward.

        Don’t give up! Ultimately you will move ahead! Keep up the good work! Know that I’m personally rooting for anyone that will to keep at it.

        Good luck!

        • Alchemical Reaction

          Thank You!

  • Human2013

    “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” Bundy continued. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.” ~ Cliven Bundy

    This is why we need affirmative action!

    • Iraq veteran

      I don’t think we should include an old fool as an argument for affirmative action. He signed his own political death warrant. But I see your point.

    • hennorama

      Human 2013 — While I understand your point, and admittedly was tempted to post remarks related to Mr. Bundy’s ignorant and reprehensible statements, this topic is better left for tomorrow’s show, as it really is not related to Banning Affirmative Action: The California Story.

      • HonestDebate1

        It also has zip zero nada to do with the grazing situation but that link is surely to be made.

    • chrysanthemum

      Yeah because most college admissions officers are basically the same as Cliven Bundy and need laws to prevent them from going into paroxysms of racism.

  • Iraq veteran

    I have pondered this to myself on many occasions. Personally I just don’t understand racism. I know WHAT it is, just don’t understand it. Affirmative Action can be a good thing but it can also be bad.
    As far as this discussion goes, they talked alot about poor people getting a better opportunity to go to college. They talked about how poorer folks come from poorer quality school systems and can’t get into college because they cant pass the tests. They talked about how Asians and whites either did great or stayed about the same (respectively) than the other guys.

    I have some questions about this, Why should colleges be responsible for lack luster public school performance(elementary, middle, and high school)? It seems to me that if education wasn’t very good at those levels we could scarcely expect a product of that school system to do well at the collegiate level. Of course there are exceptions to everything there are good students that come from these systems that would do well if not great in college.
    I think the merit system should stay. I think we should turn this focus towards primary schooling so that those students can actually succeed at the collegiate level.
    In addition to this, college is overrated and overpriced these days. Anyone that has a college degree and can’t get a job will most likely tell you this too. What ever happened to trade schools? Japan still utilizes them with great success. I’m no expert on Japan or their culture, just asking.

    • HonestDebate1

      Those are good points top to bottom. I especially agree with your last paragraph but that’s not a criticism of a college degree. It used to be that any degree was better than no degree and I think those days are gone. I also think trade schools are a great match for many. Skills are a good thing. I do worry about our collective work ethic though. The military is also an option but I’ll defer to you on that. Suffice to say that future of that option doesn’t seem as fertile these days.

      I do have a slight problem with the conventional wisdom that poor kids go to poor schools which automatically means a poor education. To my way of thinking those things don’t necessarily go together. Crappy schools can exist at all levels and poor schools can be very good. I’ve read about some and will try to dig up some examples. I certainly don’t think more money equal better education at the public school level. Apathetic parents, a lack of positive role models, bad teachers (paid well) and low expectations are the chief drivers. And when we chain kids to inferior schools it gets worse. And I really hate that I have to say this but I’m not talking about race at all. I do not equate poor with black.

      • Iraq veteran

        Thanks, I tried to be concise with it.
        As far as the poorer schools goes, I have to agree with you. I was trying to tie overall quality in with the monetary deal. Probably didn’t do that well.

        • Iraq veteran

          As far as the military thing. They have good educational benefits. Also pretty much guaranteed to get in to college after or during your obligation. Don’t want to make this a “Join The Military” thing though. :)

        • HonestDebate1

          My problem is with the conventional wisdom espoused by the show which you rightly described and not at all with your comment. You used the word “focus” which is the exact right word. Unfortunately many equate that with more money.

          • Iraq veteran

            Indeed.

    • hennorama

      Iraq veteran — I agree with much of what you have written, and would add this for consideration:

      If society considers higher education for all socioeconomic groups to be a public good, and cannot achieve it without some engineering of opportunities for some members of society who have had significant disadvantages, should society ignore the issue, and simply live with what happens, if that means some groups fall behind due to the significant disadvantages many of a particular group may have experienced?

      As an analogy, a military recruit, regardless of background, can eventually be trained to disassemble and reassemble their rifle. Some will do it faster than others, but all will eventually learn. Now consider if some of these recruits begin this training with one hand tied behind their back, or with one thumb taped to their palm, or are blindfolded.

      Also, colleges and universities have to deal with students as they find them. These institutions cannot say to applicants, “Go back in time, pick some parents who live in an area with better schools, or who can afford to send you to a different school, then come back to apply.” Colleges and universities at present are providing massive amounts of remedial instruction to their underclassmen, across all socioeconomic groups. This means they are already “responsible for lack luster [sic] public schools,” to some extent.

      • Iraq veteran

        Very good analogy.
        You add more to be pondered. I am inclined to agree except the remedial instruction part seems to kind of “drive home” the point I may or may not be making very well…

        • hennorama

          Iraq veteran — TYFYR, and your very kind words.

          In an effort to promote mutual understanding, please allow me to restate your points as I understood them:.

          1. Change and improve primary and secondary education, especially in areas with high concentrations of high school students whose standardized test scores and other admission criteria are significantly below average, making large percentages of such students ineligible for college admission without the help of admissions processes that favor them.

          2. Promote vocational schools, and/or public-private educational partnerships, such as apprenticeship programs, as an alternative to collegiate-level education.

          3. Let the chips fall where they may in regard to the college admission process.

          Please correct any misinterpretations.

          If I have understood you correctly, a few comments:

          1. This is obvious, but there are significant and legitimate differences of opinion as to how to achieve this goal, as well as disputes over funding, standards, local vs. state vs. Federal control, etc., meaning that progress will be slow to non-existent. BTW, the idea of focusing on areas with the highest number of problems, while intuitive to most, is called Statistical Process Control in the manufacturing arena, and was famously popularized by W. Edwards Deming in the US during World War II, and in post-war Japan.

          2. Also a good idea. I would point also to the German dual-track educational system as an exemplar. Here’s a brief blurb about it:

          http://www.gtai.de/GTAI/Navigation/EN/Invest/Service/Publications/markets-germany,did=741570.html

          3. If 1. and 2. are implemented, some time (10 to 20 years) would be needed before the results are evident, meaning those who have not yet matriculated might still need some added consideration.

          Thanks again for your very kind words.

          • Iraq veteran

            Alrighty then. Well you understand me perfectly it seems.
            On your first point, I didnt feel like it was so obvious as I read through the various comments or even as I listened to today’s broadcast I felt compelled to attempt to point it out, though not quite as eloquently as yourself. I also understand that achieving it would be would be complicated by the differences in opinion. I will research statistical process control.
            On your third point, I wouldn’t dream of any results in a shorter amout of time.

            I think that my generation is kind of stuck at this point and are beyond any “real” help. Perhaps we should shift our focus to the next and attempt to ensure that the opportunities we don’t have now, they will have when it becomes their time to shine.

          • hennorama

            Iraq veteran — TYFYR.

            I’m glad that there is mutual understanding.

            You’re absolutely correct in that the very basic idea of improving primary and secondary education was ignored in the program. Perhaps that is due to the ongoing disagreements on the topic, as evidenced by the controversy over Common Core, etc.

            You likely already know about SPC, as it is used every day in law enforcement via crime mapping, etc. It’s also similar to the idea of force deployment in the military, as you don’t send your forces into areas where they are the least needed. Same idea, different names.

            As to your generation “being stuck” — it is indeed a difficult time to be looking for long-term employment. To a large extent, one needs to make one’s own opportunities, and not everyone is suited to that approach. The other concept that’s often used during economic downturns is to get more education and skills, but once again, this is not universally appropriate. This is certainly a significant issue for our nation, and one that won;t be going away any time soon, unfortunately.

            Thanks again for your response.

      • brettearle

        Very well done.

        Excellent points.

        I would add that a hidden factor in all of this–without the Holistic schmultz, even though it might sound like it is Holistic schmultz–is that it is incumbent upon every individual to do the best Excavation that one can, to uncover what his life’s work truly is.

        Unfortunately, there are many, many barriers, along the way, that can hinder this journey–including many of the factors alluded to, above.

        • hennorama

          brettearle — TYFYR, and your very kind words.

          Your added “hidden factor” is one that needs greater exposure, and explicit expression by parents, educators and society at large, to students.

          Thanks again.

    • VinceD2

      So why don’t the Black and Latino communities work to improve their schools? How about helping their kids at home with their studies?

      The simple fact is that Chinese culture places a high emphasis on education, and their success is a direct result of that culture. Man up and put in some effort or be left behind.

      Remember also that admission to college is the first step, if you can’t compete, you won’t graduate. Quit bellyaching and open the books!

      • Iraq veteran

        Vince I’m not sure if I understand where you’re trying to go with your comment.
        Though, your comment remjnds me of an epiiode of King of the Hill where Hank Hill tries to socialize whith his new neighbor Kahn from Laos and asks him if he’s Chinese or Japanese. Kahn says “Neither I’m Laos.” Hank hesitates and then asks “So is that Chinese or Japanese?”

        • VinceD2

          Hey Iraq Vet, Thanks for your service.

          That was a great line on King of the Hill! It really shows how little most of us know about Asians.

          I’m pretty much backing up what you said.

          We’ve had many years of AA, and fortunately some success stories. But what has the real success rate been? Very low. Why? Culture. Yes, poverty, but mostly culture.

          I hear Prof Munoz declaring that demographics will force AA back into being in CA. But will that help Latinos? What next? Will he want to force professors to pass them with lesser test scores than their Asian counterparts? His attitude smacks of racism.

          My wife is from China. They REALLY push and help their kids succeed in school as part of their culture. That culture is what is getting them “over-represented” in college. It’s something we all could learn from instead of crying that some “races” “need” special allowances.

          Agree 100% on trade schools. Such a shame that since 1980 or so we’ve tended to look poorly at anyone with “less than” a college degree.

  • keepin’itreel

    I am an Asian American that grew up in a poor black neighborhood in Baltimore. Despite my economic disadvantages of being poor and growing up in a single parent household, there was never any question of whether or not I was going to attend college. When I went to college, I received no preference because I was Asian because the Univ of MD didn’t consider Asians minorities even though we are maybe 5% of the Maryland population. I owe my ability to get into college and graduating from college due to my tenacity and the high value my mom imparted on me regarding education. The issue with diversity in higher education will not be solved with a simplistic fix such as affirmative action. The solution is infinitely more complex and intertwined with how the African American and Latino communities value education in their own cultures.

    • HonestDebate1

      Bingo.

    • VinceD2

      You got it!

    • twenty_niner

      I went to a public high school, and most of my friends were Mexican, Jamaican, and Haitian kids on the soccer team. On top of school and soccer, I worked several jobs. They used to think I was nuts for getting up at 3 AM to study for a bunch of AP classes.

      I went to college; most of my friends didn’t. A couple went on athletic scholarships but dropped out. I never judged any of them, but one thing is for damn sure: I’ve never had an ounce of white %^&@ing guilt over my success.

  • realdealio2

    Affirmative Action or not we as African Americans need to take a page from the Asian American culture and make education the top priority in our households…not sports. Our lagging SAT scores demand it!

    • The poster formerly known as t

      Education for what? There aren’t enough good jobs for everyone…and not everyone is cut out to be an engineer.

  • Maputo59

    Very interesting discussion. I’ve read several of your responses and find that there are good points being made by everyone.

    D-Duck, in my opinion, has the right idea. “PERSEVERANCE” is something which is color blind, and needs to be in everyone, in order for a level of success to be had.

    I have a B.S. in Computer Science. I attended a military academy for one year, then transferred to a 4-year university, where I earned my degree. Was it tough, educationally? Hell yeah!!! There were plenty of times that I questioned what the heck I was doing in the discipline I chose to major in (initially, Aeronautical Engineering). I failed to mention that I’m a former military brat and I’m African American. I am one of five kids and both of my parents attended universities and earned college degrees. My parents grew up in the “South” and although they went to fairly poor schools (grade, middle and high), they used their “PERSEVERANCE” to push through the tremendous number of barriers that society placed in front of them, to succeed in almost every endeavor they attempted.

    My parents taught my siblings and I all about “PERSEVERANCE”. Mind you, we all learned this, but we all “chose” different paths, some of us succeeded, while others didn’t. I’d lump “internal fortitude” in with “PERSEVERANCE”, because in my book, to succeed, you need a way to push/motivate yourself to do your very best and to learn from whatever mistakes you or someone else you know makes. Same thing goes for all the “races”. Money is not the solution here. The drive each of us has, needs to be PERSONAL. If you want to succeed, you need to PUSH YOURSELF. It’s great having “opportunities” to attend universities, etc., but if you don’t have the internal DRIVE to do your best, you’re simply occupying space that someone else could be using.

    I’m sure there are plenty of folks who will cry foul, but we need to be honest with one another. I succeeded because my parents instilled a strong work ethic, perseverance, hard work, “never say die”, “never be a quitter”, etc, in my mind as a kid. Things have not always worked out for me, but I do learn from each experience, and try to NOT REPEAT anything negative.

    Nowadays, it is not a guarantee that a college degree will lead to success. There are plenty of “Officers” in the Military that can’t lead one bit. They rely on their “Non-commissioned-officers” (NCO’s) to solve a lot of problems. I used to manage several folks with Master’s and Doctoral degrees, and the bottom line was that they might have been “book smart”, but their intelligence did not equate directly to their work experience, nor their ability to solve problems. Some of these folks had/have tremendous student loan debt, and for what?!? They didn’t earn more than I did, and their positions in the company weren’t any more prestigious.

    Long story short is that without some level of INTERNAL FORTITUDE / DRIVE, PERSEVERANCE and WILLINGNESS TO GO THE EXTRA MILE, no one is going to succeed. All of these traits are “colorless” and “race-less”. If you have them, you stand a terrific chance to succeed in whatever you set your mind to. Without them, you’ll most likely not be as successful as you could have been. All of us make “choices” everyday. If folks want to be successful, they need to CHOOSE to sacrifice, work hard and do whatever (legally) they have to, to make things happen for themselves.

    • VinceD2

      WELL PUT!

      Parents: Are you listening?

      • The poster formerly known as t

        If hard work was all that led to success there’d be no poverty. There’s no mention of aptitude, which is largely inheritable.

        • VinceD2

          There is no guarantee of success, but lack of education and work pretty much guarantees failure.

          Attitude is “inmheritable” also, I’d prefer to call that the problem.

          • The poster formerly known as t

            “There is no guarantee of success. A lack of professional training in a field where there is a scarcity of qualified candidates pretty much guarantees underemployment and destitution. ”
            There. Fixed that for you. Success and good jobs are desirable because they are scarce, regardless of the effort applied. ” The people in the East are not doing anything miraculous. In their home countries, there are many failures that exist in their home countries that are not due to a lack of effort or ,a lack of faith. The failures aren’t spoken about, don’t get to emigrate to other countries, and are allowed to starve on the streets. The failures remain invisible in the home, contries, thus fueling these notions that all the people in the East are high-achieving workaholics.

          • VinceD2

            You didn’t “fix” anything. Lack of education and hard work in ANY field, “professional” or not, will bring failure.

            But yes, the Asians that come here are the ones that have the means to do so, we definitely are seeing their top talent. If that was your point, I agree.

            But at least in Chinese culture, education is highly valued and highly competitive. We should learn that lesson from them.

          • The poster formerly known as t

            Education and training are not the same thing.

          • VinceD2

            Tomayto, Tomaato.. Now you’re wordsmithing and nit picking. The point at which you attempt to draw a line between “education” and “training” makes no difference.

            A carpenter who is not properly trained/educated and does not apply himself will most likely fail. Same for a computer programmer.

          • The poster formerly known as t

            The proper training is given out selectively, is what my point is. Master carpenters in the U.S. always seem to be Caucasian–and I think that is because is the proper skills are passed on informally . If someone doesn’t take a shine to you , you will not be given the opportunity to learn certain skills. Someone can take a shine to you in two ways ways– by ref feral/social connections or by being exceptional. Being exceptional means being a quick learner. All the hard work in the world cannot make up for someone who cannot learn quickly. Repeating hackneyed phrases like “apply himself” shows to me that you are far removed from the current job market because if you weren’t, you’d understand that details DO matter. By omitting them, you can keep falsely projecting the peachy reality that anyone can do anything that they want…if they weren’t so lazy.

            At some point, optimism comes off as naivete.
            The reason why we haven’t invented a time machine yet ? We aren’t trying HARD enough!

          • VinceD2

            Well, go visit the SW USA, and tell me how many Caucasians you see raising houses!

            All I was trying to say that without talent and effort, success is difficult. Talent and effort certainly are not guarantees of success. Perhaps you mis-interpreted what I said.

    • Alchemical Reaction

      While your points clearly are valid, I think you miss the big picture. The reason people have to sacrifice, go the extra mile, persevere, push themselves, etc. and still are not guaranteed success even when they do these things, is because of engineered scarcity. We live on a planet, in an age of technology, where all the world’s people could live comfortably in pursuit of activities and goals that inspire them, with only minimal unpleasant labor and minimal “self-discipline”. Maybe you never learned that if you love something, you don’t need to discipline yourself to do it. You WANT to do it!

      But because of engineered scarcity, economic and financial policies that generate unnatural competition (competition not reflected in nature but increased far beyond that found in nature, (war is just one such example) because of this engineered scarcity (which could even be compared to engineered obsolescence – consumer products designed to fail after a certain amount of use to prompt more consumption) because of this engineered scarcity, we have a FALSE hyper-vigilance, a perpetual state of sympathetic nervous fight, flight, or freeze state that limits the higher brain functions and prevents creative problem solving. It has even been PROVEN that poverty actually limits the brains ability to make good decisions, for this very reason. The poorer someone is, the more limited is their brain’s ability to make good decisions. This is scientific fact.

      So you can emphasize fortitude all you want, and to some degree you are right, but only to a point. At what point does the cold facts of socioeconomic hardship come to bear and the systems we have allowed to control our society need to be addressed? I challenge everyone here to go and research binary economic theory.

    • HonestDebate1

      You nailed it. I think most people as they mature don’t naturally push themselves. It usually takes someone else like a parent to push them beyond their comfort zone and then they realize they are more capable than they thought.

      I remember in the 9th grade I played on the basketball team. I wasn’t very good. At the end of practice one day we were running wind sprints the length of the court. The coach would blow the whistle and we had to sprint to the other end…. over and over. Finally I told the coach I could not go anymore. He looked me in the eye and blew his whistle. We did a few more after that. As we were gasping in the bleachers when it was done the coach said where’s that kid who said he couldn’t go anymore and I raised my hand still unable to speak for the gasps. He reminded me that I could and I did. He said always remember one thing, “You will pass out before you die”. That always stuck with me.

  • Andy

    I’m very disappointed with the guest choices and the direction of the discussion.

    1. No guest spoke from the position from Asian Americans. All the big counter arguments came from callers. It appears the program is deeply biased.

    2. There were many mentions of racism and segregation. People seem to imply Asians don’t face racism problem. Seems to imply Asians are oppressing other races. Tom even asked about the irony in it. The Chinese massacre happened in LA not that long ago. We faced serious racism issue. If Affirmative Action considers race and thus intensifies competitions among Asian students, how it that not racism? How can you tell Asian students that yes you put in 10 times the effort, but the only reason we can’t take you is because of your skin color? That’s the very definition of racism.

    3. Tom repeatedly pointed out Asian made up only 14% of population yet was able to block the bill as if we are well represented politically and seems to imply we have a lot of political voice. We were only able to reverse 3 votes, that’s not an overwhelming political achievement. Do you know any Latino or Black civil rights groups, figures, activist, Supreme Court judges, presidents? Sure you do they are all over the place, how about Asian?

    I grew up in a poor family. We had very little money. I didn’t speak English. I had to help out my dad in the restaurant after school then do my school work where I had to look up each word in the dictionary. I worked through it and got in college and graduated. Most Blacks and Latinos have better English skills than me. Now that’s a serious advantage. I didn’t get into college because I got special treatment, in fact I had to compete in the quota system. How it that fair to me? The whole program discussion completely dismissed hard work. Really? Parents, money, and school determine your SAT scores? If I knew that I could have save so much time.

    • VinceD2

      Correct you are! Admission to college should be merit based, and ONLY merit based.

      If not enough of certain minorities are making the grade, then fix that problem. Good luck changing those cultures.

  • Don_B1

    And how does someone who has never been given the chance to learn and grow their academic abilities get to show their merit?

  • Lexington Steele

    It’s pretty obvious, Asian are fighting for more college admission slots in the state of California solely. There’re a lot of great Midwest schools, Asian’s don’t even consider.

    • VinceD2

      Asians are not fighting for the spots, they are EARNING them!

      Would you not be upset if government took your spot and gave it away to a less qualified person because of race?

      • Lexington Steele

        Let me say this: as a White male, I’m very much aware of the history of this country, if a group of people have been completely demoralized for centuries (i.e., hundreds of years), I think we can let a few Black people go to college. As an Economist by trade, if an Asian, whom has 10 acceptance letters, looses out on a few schools to an under represented minority the Asian’s opportunity costs haven’t diminished exponentially. Hence, to my former point about colleges elsewhere. Look at it this way, if I purchase a lottery ticket, winnings totaling $60,000.00USD, and a homeless person did the same; but, the homeless persons ticket is weighted and wins. It’s not fair; but, it humane. VinceD2, thanks for the debate :-D

        • VinceD2

          No one is stopping anyone from going to college, just wanting to see the best and brightest get the opportunities that they worked for.

          Look at your history again, the Chinese have been discriminated against, The Japanese internment.

          And it seems to be mostly the Latinos making the noise, at least in this program. Now pardon me, but the Latinos were not brought here in chains on ships.

          We’ve tried “affirmative action”. It failed. OK, so you forcefully deny college admission to top students in favor of less qualified minorities. Then what? What about the dropout rate? Will the next step be to enforce reduced standards based on race when grading tests?

          Do I want to fix the problem? Yes. AA fails to fix the cultural problems that certain minorities suffer. It punished the minorities whose cultures emphasize hard work and achievement. That’s not the American way.

          • Lexington Steele

            Well, it’s a complicated issue; with no, good, solid solutions. I’m afraid, we’re are on different sides, of history, on this topic.

          • VinceD2

            Agree, Affirmative Action is the past, a failed attempt to lift minorities pot of poverty.

            The future needs new ideas. I fear that until we let go of our almost religious beliefs in “Free Market Fundamentalism” and “Globalism”, things will not get better. JOBS are the real problem here, everything else fans out from that.

            Take care!

        • Andy

          Are you suggesting Chinese Americans weren’t demoralized? You know about the Chinese exclusion act? Chinese were paid unfairly to build dangerous railroad in the US. There are countless other examples. Are you suggesting Blacks are somehow more worthy of your pity? We should just get back in the line for your handouts? If I were Black I would be offended by that. Nobody needs your pity.

          • Lexington Steele

            Andy,

            I clearly tagged that text with “…demoralized for centuries (i.e., hundreds of years)…”. The two issues, you state about Chinese and Blacks, are not comparable. With regards to your second point “…nobody needs your pity…”: we have social programs for a reason. We, as a society, need to look out for those whom did not win the genetic lottery.

          • Andy

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_immigration_to_the_United_States

            You might find the first few paragraphs interesting. So yeah maybe not quite two centuries of abuse. So I guess that must be enough reasons to make room for your other more significant abused group. You don’t see the arrogance in that? In the end, you are still portraying as that all powerful white man who’s pulling the strings and decides who gets to do what.

          • Lexington Steele

            In the end, when you look at the mix, it’s White women that are taking the slots away from Asian’s; yet, I haven’t heard you mention that. Andy, if there is one thing I’ve taken away from this debate is that the Founding Fathers were smart to set up the Electoral College, because people collectively are incapable of critical thinking. Hubris, blinds most of us.

          • Andy

            Lexington, if White women take slots away by academic work, then more powers to them. I have no problem with that. However, if not, then I’d oppose it just as much. Why do you think I wouldn’t? I don’t prefer Whites over Blacks. Maybe you haven’t heard me mention it is simply because I didn’t know, people weren’t talking about that, but nevertheless, it’s not about “which” group is ok and which isn’t, it’s “how” they get the slot.

            Please don’t get me wrong as if I’m upset and up in arms that people could take slots away from “us”. That’s ridiculous. Those slots weren’t allocated to anyone. There were only so many slots. The best ones took them and they happen to be Asians. As long as the competition is merit base, then I’m fine. I can care less which group dominates in that race. I don’t watch NBA and hope it was a more diverse group. If you watch Olympics, different sport is dominated by different group, each has their own niches. That in itself is diversity. Forcing it artificially is simply ridiculous and counter productive.

          • MonkInSF

            How many Asian Americans had become of masters and owned black slaves? NONE.

            Why should the Asian American community sacrifice for the sin committed by others?

    • tcelvis

      This “fighting for more” argument is just disgusting. If you stand out for your rights not to be taken in the name of racism, somehow you are “fighting for more” greedily.

      Asians are fighting for NOT BEING DRIVEN OUT OF COLLEGE just because of RACE. How come 9% Asian population of California has to suffer in favor of 31% Hispanic population in the name of Affirmative Action and “help minority”?

  • Ying Han

    American dreams are being taken away only because our parents are working hard to support our education, only because we work hard for our dream, only because we are Asian American.

  • nkandersen

    Lexington,

    We aren’t blocking your comments; our filters are being extra-trigger happy today. We apologize for the delay in approval. If you have further complaints about speed, we suggest you take them to Disqus, our platform provider.

    Best,

    nick andersen
    web producer | on point

  • Diketene

    Gary Orfield’s comments are just disgusting. Segregation? Give me a break! Is there any laws to ban Black or Latino students from working hard? Is there anything in the state of California to prevent them from earning good SAT scores?

    I have no problem with K12 programs to help kids from low income families. But that should be income based not race based. However, if after the help from all sorts of assistance programs, after 12 years, after over 300-500 SAT score addition and you still can not compete, isn’t fair for people to ask you to go back home and do some reality check – did I work hard enough? was there enough parenting at my home?

    Why do you still come out and point fingers to others?

    • Diketene

      Also, I am fed up with those who keep on talking about disadvantages faced by Latino kids. What they are suggesting often time is family income. But is education a money issue? When I was at school age, my parents were constantly struggling to make both ends meet. I had to share a small bed room with my two bothers. Without enough clothes to keep myself warm in winter, I suffered serious blisters on my hands and feet. But for my parents, none of those were excuses for me to stop study.

      If there are any real disadvantages that prevent from Latino kids from doing well, that is the lack of devotion from their parents. The fact that Latino leaders keep blaming others surely will not do any real good to their kids.

  • MonkInSF

    Latino and African American make up 30% of University of California admission rate in 2013. This is fact.

    Who is lying?

  • MonkInSF

    They force the Asian Californians pay CA education system. And they try to rob Asian Californians again by forcing their children to attend out of state universities.

    Robbers, thieves

  • MonkInSF

    Teen pregnancy Latino vs. Asian/Pacific Islander 6% vs 1% (CDC)
    High school drop out rate Latino vs. Asian American 16.1% vs 5.5% (www.kidsdata.org)
    Average mother age at 1st birth Latino vs Asian American 23.1 vs 28.5 (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/d

    These data show that:
    More Asian American parents get themselves ready before they start a family.
    They are more likely to provide sufficient support to children both
    financially and emotionally.
    More Asian American parents do their job
    to give proper guidance and discipline to teen kids to stay away from
    sex or at least from pregnancy.
    More Asian American parents do their job to keep children in school.

    It is good parenting that leads to the success of the kid.

    • tcelvis

      I do not think average mother age should matter in this issue.

      However, I do agree we should help African Americans and Latino Americans to compete in college admissions, instead of simply eliminating compete for them. Latter will surely win their instant votes for politicians but will not help the ethical groups in the long run. We need to focus on fixing the broken K-12 system, not just going the easy way.

    • Jimmy

      Thank you for speaking out the truth and reality!

  • tcelvis

    I have to admit you have some insightful comment, although mostly irrelevant to the under-debating issue. This theatre of the absurd is all about Democrats repaying the 31% Hispanic voters of CA and securing the 17% of United States, in the name of making up for slavery to African American people.

  • June

    The Painful Truth About Affirmative Action
    RICHARD SANDER AND STUART TAYLOR JR.OCT 2 2012, 10:30 AM ET

    Why racial preferences in college admissions hurt minority students — and shroud the education system in dishonesty.

    michaeljung/Shutterstock
    Affirmative action in university admissions started in the late 1960s as a noble effort to jump-start racial integration and foster equal opportunity. But somewhere along the decades, it has lost its way.

    Over time, it has become a political lightning rod and one of our most divisive social policies. It has evolved into a regime of racial preferences at almost all selective schools — preferences so strikingly large and politically unpopular that administrators work hard to conceal them. The largest, most aggressive preferences are usually reserved for upper-middle-class minorities on whom they often inflict significant academic harm, whereas more modest policies that could help working-class and poor people of all races are given short shrift. Academic leaders often find themselves flouting the law and acting in ways that aggravate the worst consequences of large preferences. They have become prisoners of a system that many privately deplore for its often-perverse unintended effects but feel they cannot escape.

    The single biggest problem in this system — a problem documented by a vast and growing array of research — is the tendency of large preferences to boomerang and harm their intended beneficiaries. Large preferences often place students in environments where they can neither learn nor compete effectively — even though these same students would thrive had they gone to less competitive but still quite good schools.

    The student who would flourish at, say, Wake Forest, instead finds himself at Duke, where the professors are not teaching at a pace designed for him.
    We refer to this problem as “mismatch,” a word that largely explains why, even though blacks are more likely to enter college than are whites with similar backgrounds, they will usually get much lower grades, rank toward the bottom of the class, and far more often drop out. Because of mismatch, racial preference policies often stigmatize minorities, reinforce pernicious stereotypes, and undermine the self-confidence of beneficiaries, rather than creating the diverse racial utopias so often advertised in college campus brochures.

    The mismatch effect happens when a school extends to a student such a large admissions preference — sometimes because of a student’s athletic prowess or legacy connection to the school, but usually because of the student’s race — that the student finds himself in a class where he has weaker academic preparation than nearly all of his classmates. The student who would flourish at, say, Wake Forest or the University of Richmond, instead finds himself at Duke, where the professors are not teaching at a pace designed for him — they are teaching to the “middle” of the class, introducing terms and concepts at a speed that is unnerving even to the best-prepared student.

    The student who is underprepared relative to others in that class falls behind from the start and becomes increasingly lost as the professor and his classmates race ahead. His grades on his first exams or papers put him at the bottom of the class. Worse, the experience may well induce panic and self-doubt, making learning even harder.

    When explaining to friends how academic mismatch works, we sometimes say: Think back to high school and recall a subject at which you did fine but did not excel. Suppose you had suddenly been transferred into an advanced class in that subject with a friend who was about at your level and 18 other students who excelled in the subject and had already taken the intermediate course you just skipped. You would, in all likelihood, soon be struggling to keep up. The teacher might give you some extra attention but, in class, would be focusing on the median student, not you and your friend, and would probably be covering the material at what, to you, was a bewildering pace.

    Wouldn’t you have quickly fallen behind and then continued to fall farther and farther behind as the school year progressed? Now assume that you and the friend who joined you at the bottom of that class were both black and everyone else was Asian or white. How would that have felt? Might you have imagined that this could reinforce in the minds of your classmates the stereotype that blacks are weak students?

    So we have a terrible confluence of forces putting students in classes for which they aren’t prepared, causing them to lose confidence and underperform even more while, at the same time, consolidating the stereotype that they are inherently poor students. And you can see how at each level there are feedback effects that reinforce the self-doubts of all the students who are struggling.

    Of course, being surrounded by very able peers can confer benefits, too — the atmosphere may be more intellectually challenging, and one may learn a lot from observing others. We have no reason to think that small preferences are not, on net, beneficial. But contemporary racial preferences used by selective schools — especially those extended to blacks and Native Americans — tend to be extremely large, often amounting to the equivalent of hundreds of SAT points.

    At the University of Texas, whose racial preference programs come before the Supreme Court for oral argument on October 10, the typical black student receiving a race preference placed at the 52nd percentile of the SAT; the typical white was at the 89th percentile. In other words, Texas is putting blacks who score at the middle of the college-aspiring population in the midst of highly competitive students. This is the sort of academic gap where mismatch flourishes. And, of course, mismatch does not occur merely with racial preferences; it shows up with large preferences of all types.

    Research on the mismatch problem was almost non-existent until the mid-1990s; it has developed rapidly in the past half-dozen years, especially among labor economists. To cite just a few examples of the findings:

    Black college freshmen are more likely to aspire to science or engineering careers than are white freshmen, but mismatch causes blacks to abandon these fields at twice the rate of whites.
    Blacks who start college interested in pursuing a doctorate and an academic career are twice as likely to be derailed from this path if they attend a school where they are mismatched.
    About half of black college students rank in the bottom 20 percent of their classes (and the bottom 10 percent in law school).
    Black law school graduates are four times as likely to fail bar exams as are whites; mismatch explains half of this gap.
    Interracial friendships are more likely to form among students with relatively similar levels of academic preparation; thus, blacks and Hispanics are more socially integrated on campuses where they are less academically mismatched.
    Given the severity of the mismatch problem, and the importance of diversity issues to university leaders, one might expect that understanding and addressing mismatch would be at the very top of the academic agenda.

    But in fact it is a largely invisible issue. With striking uniformity, university leaders view discussion of the mismatch problem as a threat to affirmative action and to racial peace on campuses, and therefore a subject to be avoided. They suppress data and even often ostracize faculty who attempt to point out the seriousness of mismatch. (See, for instance, the case of UT professor Lino Graglia, who was condemned by university officials after he observed that black and Mexican-American students were “not academically competitive” with their white peers.) We believe that the willful denial of the mismatch issue is as big a problem as mismatch itself.

    A powerful example of these problems comes from UCLA, an elite school that used large racial preferences until the Proposition 209 ban took effect in 1998. The anticipated, devastating effects of the ban on preferences at UCLA and Berkeley on minorities were among the chief exhibits of those who attacked Prop 209 as a racist measure. Many predicted that over time blacks and Hispanics would virtually disappear from the UCLA campus.

    And there was indeed a post-209 drop in minority enrollment as preferences were phased out. Although it was smaller and more short-lived than anticipated, it was still quite substantial: a 50 percent drop in black freshman enrollment and a 25 percent drop for Hispanics. These drops precipitated ongoing protests by students and continual hand-wringing by administrators, and when, in 2006, there was a particularly low yield of black freshmen, the campus was roiled with agitation, so much so that the university reinstituted covert, illegal racial preferences.

    Throughout these crises, university administrators constantly fed agitation against the preference ban by emphasizing the drop in undergraduate minority admissions. Never did the university point out one overwhelming fact: The total number of black and Hispanic students receiving bachelor’s degrees were the same for the five classes after Prop 209 as for the five classes before.

    How was this possible? First, the ban on preferences produced better-matched students at UCLA, students who were more likely to graduate. The black four-year graduation rate at UCLA doubled from the early 1990s to the years after Prop 209.

    Second, strong black and Hispanic students accepted UCLA offers of admission at much higher rates after the preferences ban went into effect; their choices seem to suggest that they were eager to attend a school where the stigma of a preference could not be attached to them. This mitigated the drop in enrollment.

    Third, many minority students who would have been admitted to UCLA with weak qualifications before Prop 209 were admitted to less elite schools instead; those who proved their academic mettle were able to transfer up to UCLA and graduate there.

    Thus, Prop 209 changed the minority experience at UCLA from one of frequent failure to much more consistent success. The school granted as many bachelor degrees to minority students as it did before Prop 209 while admitting many fewer and thus dramatically reducing failure and drop-out rates. It was able, in other words, to greatly reduce mismatch.

    But university officials were unable or unwilling to advertise this fact. They regularly issued statements suggesting that Prop 209′s consequences had caused unalloyed harm to minorities, and they suppressed data on actual student performance. The university never confronted the mismatch problem, and rather than engage in a candid discussion of the true costs and benefits of a ban on preferences, it engineered secret policies to violate Prop 209′s requirement that admissions be colorblind.

    The odd dynamics behind UCLA’s official behavior exist throughout the contemporary academic world. The quest for racial sensitivity has created environments in which it is not only difficult but downright risky for students and professors, not to mention administrators, to talk about what affirmative action has become and about the nature and effects of large admissions preferences. Simply acknowledging the fact that large preferences exist can trigger accusations that one is insulting or stigmatizing minority groups; suggesting that these preferences have counterproductive effects can lead to the immediate inference that one wants to eliminate or cut back efforts to help minority students.

    The desire to be sensitive has sealed off failing programs from the scrutiny and dialogue necessary for healthy progress. It has also made racial preferences a force for economic inequality: academically well-prepared working class and poor Asian and white students are routinely passed over in favor of black and Hispanic students who are more affluent as well as less well-prepared.

    The way racial preferences affect student outcomes is only part of the story. Equally relevant is the way the academic community has proved unequal to the task of reform — showing great resourcefulness in blocking access to information, enforcing homogenous preference policies across institutions, and evading even legal restrictions on the use of preferences. All of this makes the quest for workable reforms — which are most likely to come from the Supreme Court — both more complex and more interesting than one might at first suspect.

    This post is adapted from Mismatch: How Affirmative Action Hurts Students It’s Intended to Help, and Why Universities Won’t Admit It.

  • The poster formerly known as t

    The one-size fits education doesn’t work for all whites either, but , please, continue to pretend that working class white people don’t exist.

    The statistics don’t point to anything because they aren’t meant to. The big story isn’t Asians being disproportionately represented at American universities, it is that a lot capital has moved to collectivist Asian countries. They took the factory jobs and now they’re coming for the white collar jobs. A lot of what people are referring to as “strong family and social structure” are cultures, which emphasize rigid conformity and submission to authority to the point of repression. There’s no such thing as independence or individuality. Money comes into play as well. On the flip side, the school day is much longer and there’s a lot less emphasis on sports. The problem isn’t that blacks have rejected the dominant culture, they’ve just rejected the part about delayed gratification and delayed gratification is becoming more of an upper middle class thing. The biggest adherents to youth culture, capitalism and consumerism and Christianity come from working class African Americans and Hispanics. Many of them can not justify working hard in subjects that don’t come naturally to them. They’re too extroverted to sit down and spend their teenage years studying wIth the high possibility of having nothing to show for it. There isn’t enough social support for that.

    • disqus_2ioyRiygT3

      Good thoughts here. I in no way meant to omit reference to w/c whites. Time didn’t permit.

  • Claudia

    NPR, I have been listening to you for many years, but your intro is misleading to say the least– Asian Am enrollment only went from 32% to 35.9%, while Black enrollment went up from 4% to 4.3%. What are your definitions of “plummeted” and “soared”?

    In addition, SCA5 passed along party lines in the senate, with no Republican support, so why do you single out Asians as the ones opposing such a politically motivated bill? It is unconscionable for a public radio to stir up racial conflict like this! You’ve lost my trust as an unbiased program.

    Plenty of suggestions have been made after SCA5 passed the senate, including effective mechanisms to address the K-12 issue, which should’ve been politicians’ real focus. The merit, harm and necessity of affirmative action is an ongoing debate, yet I caution the media when it uses such a debate in a misguided effort to generate controversy along racial lines.

    With numbers telling the truth, there is no basis for a “principled conversation about whether a racially diverse college-educated population is important” (LA Times above), because CA systems have achieved diversity through various means.

    See numbers below: “It is indisputable that both in absolute numbers and percentages, minorities that attend the University of California have increased and exceed the levels of minority admissions from the pre-Prop. 209 days. At the University of California in 1996 – the last year prior to Prop. 209’s adoption – blacks accounted for 4 percent of overall admissions (1,628); in 2013 they accounted for 4.3 percent of admissions (2,705); they are approximately 6.6 percent of the California population. Chicanos and Latinos comprised 14.3 percent of admissions (5,744) in 1996 and are 27.8 percent (17,450) of admissions in 2013; they make up about 38.2 percent of the population. Asians made up 32 percent (12,995) of admissions in 1996 and are 35.9 percent (22,536) in 2013; they make up about 13.9 percent of California’s population. Whites have plummeted percentage-wise from being 41 percent (16,465) of admissions in 1996 to 27.9 percent (17,516) in 2013; whites make up about 39.4 percent of the population.”
    http://www.sacbee.com/2014/02/08/6138480/viewpoints-a-step-backward-on.html

    “Although the share of underrepresented minorities in the UC system
    dropped from 20% before the ban to 18.6% in 1997, by 2008 it had
    rebounded to 25%, with an 18% rise in graduation rates among minorities. The numbers at the elite UC Berkeley and UCLA campuses have not fully recovered to pre-Proposition 209 numbers, but they have made considerable progress. Moreover, both were listed in U.S. News &
    World Report’s Economic Diversity Among the Top 25 Ranked Schools for the 2011-12 year, with the highest percentage of undergraduates
    receiving Pell grants.”
    http://articles.latimes.com/2014/feb/07/opinion/la-oe-gratz-california-racial-preferences-20140207

  • TFollowerII

    SCA5 is racial discrimination.

    Favor/disfavor a group of people based on skin color or race, in any form or shape, is racial discrimination.

    The ones kept bring SCA5-like racial discrimination to agenda are racists.

    SCA5 is racial discrimination, and we should all say NO to it.

  • 228929292AABBB

    It is too bad a brave, honest guest couldn’t have been added to the show, though I don’t blame On Point. No one can stand the heat of being associated with the truth – that Asians are a disadvantaged minority, as Jews were before them and as Italians and the Irish were as well, and they are all succeeding without affirmative action. Other groups have been unable to succeed before affirmative action, during affirmative action, and after affirmative action. Mr. Orfield and Mr. Munoz, sad old ambassadors from the fantasy world, made fools of themselves trying to work around those facts.

  • Discussioner

    Affirmative action is discrimination in disguise. Plain and simple. As a minority, I don’t want any discrimination system to continue in this country. As a minority, I have worked so hard to prove myself. I don’t need another discriminating system that adds prejudice to my race (or any race in that matter). I don’t need the preferential treatment to get into good school because I studied hard and put in my effort. SCA5 or any affirmative action system just add to the perception that minority is inferior. Once student graduates from the college, who will give them preferential treatment in the work place? No one! All that left is the prejudice and the perception that minorities are inferior! Stop this nonsense.

  • Anonymous

    Asia, especially some ethnic group, is very ungrateful to America. They thought the winner should take all, they thought they are superior to all other ethnic group. In their forum, they constantly advocate recial view, attack almost all other ethnic groups with no limit. It’s very dangerous if those guys get in main stream position. They want to turn back all progressive in past 50 years or so. Consider all those facts, SCA5 is good balance for such high IQ but terrible low EQ group.

    • Jeff

      What you have said is the worst discrimination I have ever seen.

  • Guest

    Do you think, which group has high IQ and which group has low EQ? Such a shameless racist.

    We request not bring race factor into the college enrollment, you think it is not fair and should instead consider the qualification based on skin color?

    “It’s very dangerous if those guys get in main stream position.”
    Obviously you hate Asian and try everything you can to smear. Being a coward hiding behind trolling, and venomously attack other ethic group, that’s all you can do.

  • gerdo888

    AA and the racial discrimination doctrine it represents, were thrown into the garbage can by the progressive thinking Californian people almost twenty years ago. Now, the SCA-5 will try to resurrect a vampire, a zombie, that, will be totally unacceptable as it will erode one of the cornerstones upon which this great country is built, i.e., meritocracy. If SCA-5 or any of its successor bills passes, it will ruin the opportunities meritocracy has brought to the Golden State, and will be the first step to turn America into a country like Mexico.

  • thinker

    Shouldn’t college admission be merit based, not skin/race based? If some groups are disadvantaged, shouldn’t the effort be made to help the groups to learn more from kindergarten? shouldn’t those with aspiration work harder to achieve the required merit? Why should those who work hard (such as asian) be punished due to their race/skin color?
    I cannot understand the logic behind SCA 5. It seems to me a classic example of bully of real minority. Latinos have been used as an example in SCA 5. I have no bias against Latinos and I think many of them are hard working and honest people. But note that Latinos are going to surpass white and be majority in California. Their enrollment rate in UC system is about the same as white. They are not disadvantaged.
    The effort trying to ration enrollment according to the race is totally discrimination. If we ration education by race, in the future, will we ration work according to race? will we ration money/tax/everything according to race?

  • Jinhui Chen

    For most of Asian Americans, they don’t complain, they try to work extremely hard to get opportunities, and thus when topics of minority are brought up they are neglected, not treated as a group of minority and often discriminated or prejudiced even though their population belongs indeed to the scope of minority.

    The society isn’t equal, every race group has poor and rich, and while you are fighting for fairness, be prepared to build a strong community and work harder. Whining might bring you some results, but in the long run, you have to change the whole image by self-motivation.

  • Shawn

    I just listened to this podcast and I was troubled to find that the very learned guests all operated with the assumption that a UC degree was equivalent to a UC education. Dr. Munos is right to worry about an apartheid state but when unprepared students enter college, they only rarely end up with degrees that make them economically competitive. AA college admissions do little when a resume shows that a student dodged rigorous coursework. There will always be anecdotes of unlikely success against all odds but, far more often, the unprepared assess their situation and find their way into an unmarketable major that suits their aptitude. Again, the diploma might be impressive and, on graduation day, the college administrators will be patting themselves on the back for “getting these students through” but the professional world will expose the fraud when that General Studies degree goes up against an Engineering, Computer Science, or Pre Med degree. Worst of all, those students will have wasted valuable developmental years that could have been dedicated to appropriate vocational training.

    Regarding the families who worry that their academically motivated child won’t find a spot in these schools, I would say that the AA admits typically aren’t vying for the majors that your children are. There will be room.

  • nkandersen

    We actually didn’t delete any comments in the past week. You may make any assumptions you like, but we assure you, we haven’t deleted comments. This is an open forum and we hope for open discussion. Delays in comments posting aside, we hope to post the vast majority of comments.

    nick andersen
    web producer | on point radio

  • Jimmy

    Wikipedia: Racial segregation is separation of humans into racial groups in daily life. It may apply to activities such as eating in a restaurant, drinking from a water fountain, using a public toilet, attending school, going to the movies, riding on a bus, or in the rental or purchase of a home.

    It sounds to me that SCA5 is exactly promoting racial segregation because it is trying to restore racial preference in our constitution!

  • ExcellentNews

    IMHO, education (as well as access to other opportunities in life) should be based on MERIT, INTELLECT and ABILITY. And before you flame me out, lighten up and consider this – if we accounted for ability alone, very few domestically educated Americans would deserve a place in the nation’s top universities. These should belong to foreign-born and foreign-educated students, who are head and shoulders above our home-grown overweight dunderheads REGARDLESS of race. The brightest person I’ve ever met personally was from Ghana (attending MIT on a scholarship). And that’s not just an exception. Whether you look at the average or at the top layer, foreign candidates are far smarter and hard-working.

    And this actually matters. To preserve the quality of life in America, we need the best and brightest doctors, engineers and scientists. That means merit-based admissions open to EVERYONE worldwide and making sure that money or race are not factors under consideration. The marvel of America in the second half 20th century was largely the result of us attracting the “cream of the crop” in global science and technology here. And if I may add, it was recently OUTSOURCED abroad by our own domestically-bred and educated MBAs…..

    • The poster formerly known as t

      Hard working meaning that they will work for less money. The cream of the crop are minorities all around the world. I suspect that Ghana is not full of little geniuses because I don’t think the IQ is dominant role in sexual selection for reproduction. The marvel of America in the second half of the century came from the obvious advantages that America had as the one of the last remaining capitalist economies in the world. That advantage started eroding as other countries recovered from WWII, and embraced capitalism.

      FYI, the best and brightest at the elite colleges aren’t working for us, they’re working for American corporations, who don’t necessarily have America’s best interests at heart.

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