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Government Is Back, But What Comes Next?

The deal in Washington, and where it leaves us.

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, walks with security after talking to reporters on Capitol Hill, Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2013, in Washington. Sen. McConnell and his Democratic counterpart, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., are optimistic about forging an eleventh-hour bipartisan deal preventing a possible federal default and ending the partial government shutdown after Republican divisions forced GOP leaders to drop efforts to ram their own version through the House. (AP)

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, walks with security after talking to reporters on Capitol Hill, Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2013, in Washington. Sen. McConnell and his Democratic counterpart, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., are optimistic about forging an eleventh-hour bipartisan deal preventing a possible federal default and ending the partial government shutdown after Republican divisions forced GOP leaders to drop efforts to ram their own version through the House. (AP)

It’s over.  The shutdown.  Default fever.  The Tea Party’s October assault on Obamacare.  As of late last night, all done.  Over.  Surrendered.  The immediate cost to the country of all the drama – $24 billion, we’re told.  The cost in global reputation — hard to say, hard to calculate, but out there.  Real.  The cost to American confidence in our own system of government to reasonably, responsibly work things out, find a common way — real too.  And the respite from the uproar may be short.  Up next On Point:  Washington’s fever, broken.  And what we’ve learned.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Molly Ball, staff writer covering national politics at The Atlantic. (@Mollyesque)

Roger Simon, chief political columnist for Politco. (@PoliticoRoger)

Greg Ip, U.S. Economics editor for The Economist. (@Greg_Ip)

From Tom’s Reading List

The Atlantic: Republicans Shut Down the Government For Nothing — “With a deal to reopen the government apparently imminent Wednesday, it’s worth taking stock of what it was all for—the two and a half weeks without a fully functioning federal government, the nonstop chaos on Capitol Hill, the tiptoeing to the brink of default. For Republicans, it was basically for nothing.”

The Economist: America’s Economy: Meh ceiling? –”The government is wasting the opportunity presented by dirt cheap borrowing costs to make valuable public investments and boost short- and long-term growth. If the government were dead set on slashing deficits there are vastly better ways of doing it than what has emerged through several years of disaster chicken. Foolish fiscal battles, and the Republicans’ daft and doomed attempt to short-circuit Obamacare, have had an enormous opportunity cost, in terms of the legislation that might have been passed—immigration reform, tax reform, and so on—but which has now been delayed by these antics and potentially sunk by the accumulation of bad blood.”

National Review: The Last Conference — “At the last GOP conference meeting of the two-week government shutdown, no lawmakers went to the microphones to give their take. Instead, after Speaker John Boehner told Republicans they had ‘fought the good fight,’ they all rose up to offer a standing ovation. ‘It was one of the easiest meetings we’ve ever had,’ says Representative Mick Mulvaney of South Carolina.”

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  • Yar

    Time to clean house, What if we can recruit viable candidates for every primary for all 435 seats who will agree not to take any political money or trade in the Stock or bond markets while in office. No PAC participation while in office. When we elect enough people who will actually work to get money out of politics then this country has a chance. If the 35 and under crowd will turn out at rates of 75 to 80 percent, we can turn this thing around. Let’s do it!
    Who’s in?

    • Matt MC

      On behalf of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, I would like to offer you $5.00 to take down your post.

    • Wm_James_from_Missouri

      Good luck with that! Sounds great but will never happen. You might have a better chance to elect 535 + 2, that might hate each other enough to stab each other in the back, thereby ending all of our problems. :)
      You know I am only teasing, I do agree that something has to be done.

    • sickofthechit

      I’m with you. I was shocked to see that there were 0 independents in the House. How can that be? Is our old nemesis Gerry really that pervasive? ridiculous!

    • John Cedar

      My business will save about a million dollars this year thanks to Obama unilaterally usurping congress and giving a one year delay of the employer mandate. And I didn’t give any money to the Obama campaign.

      Its not the money put into politics that is the problem, its the money that comes out of politics. We need an amendment requiring congress to fund the government in no less than five separate bills. And an amendment retracting the power of the senate to make amendments to spending bills. That would take the money out of politics.

      • Yar

        If you wanted you can still provide healthcare for your employees. It is good for business to meet your employees needs. They provide you your profit.

        • John Cedar

          They provide me twice as much profit if I DON”T meet their wants…er um…needs.

          Since you claim to know what is good for business perhaps you would like to steal all my employees and meet their needs? If so, I should they contact you?

          • Yar

            No thank you, if they want to form a workers cooperative and cut you out, it is their business.

      • Matt MC

        OK, Papa John. Perhaps your business isn’t worth having around if you can’t even afford to give your workers a decent living.

      • Matt MC

        I’m sure the world would work just fine without your crappy business. Let someone else do it that can pay their employees a decent wage.

        • John Cedar

          Let someone else do it?
          I didn’t know I was stopping anyone else from doing it?
          Maybe YOU would like to do it?
          I would be happy to let all my employees know that you will pay them more money with health coverage to boot.
          How can they contact you?

          • Matt MC

            I was hoping you would respond. My point is that business can adapt to expectations. I’m sure all the business leaders in the 1800s thought they couldn’t possibly run their textile factory without child labor or without giving their workers slave wages. I’m sure some of them did go under, but the ones that survived did so while meeting certain ethical standards.

            You’re that guy from the 1800s. If you can’t meet the moral standards our society sets for you, t.s. Your company and your workers are better off if you go under.

          • Matt MC

            I’m sure the business leaders in the 1800s believed they couldn’t turn a profit without child labor or paying their workers slave wages, making them work 80 hour weeks. I’m sure some of them did have to close their businesses, but other ones came that could meet the standards our society set for them.

            You’re that guy in the 1800s that wants to keep his child labor.

      • Don_B1

        So what are you doing with that $1 million? Pocketing it?

        What incentive do you have to invest it in new products (capital goods and more workers to produce more goods and services)?

        And why, if you can sell more, would the slight increase in healthcare costs deter you from making whatever slight expenditure increases to achieve more sales and profits?

    • NewtonWhale

      “all 435 seats”?

      Count me out. That is the same false equivalence that got us into this mess.

      Do your homework. Identify the problem pols then work to defeat them. When you say everyone is to blame then no one is accountable. And that serves the purpose of those who don’t believe in government: the Tea Party Republicans.

      • Don_B1

        Just clicking the “up-arrow” is not a strong enough response to your “getting-right-to-the-marrow-of-the-issue” post!

      • Yar

        I will consider incumbents if they will pledge not to take money or trade trade in the markets. We have to clean house to fix the money connection to politics.

        • Don_B1

          Financing campaigns with public funds would be the way to accomplish that part of what is needed to change the politics of this nation.

          See Lawrence Lessig’s efforts.

  • Matt MC

    I’m voting for the Green Tea Party. It is like the TEA Party, except it is non-alcoholic and de-segregated… I mean de caffeinated… I wouldn’t want to imply that TEA Party members are… Oh, who am I kidding?

    • sickofthechit

      If you haven’t seen Bill Mahers final “Last Word” when Chris Matthews was on, it was excellent example of the tea party being read the riot act.

    • J__o__h__n

      Unfortunately, the teabaggers realize that throwing their vote away on a third party is futile.

      • Don_B1

        Therefore it will take some spine in less radical Republicans to kick the Tea Party Republicans out of their Party.

        The likes of which have not happened since William Buckley kicked the John Birch Society out of the Conservative Party Action Conference.

        Don’t hold your breath with these spineless jellyfish!

  • William

    What’s next? Spending!!! Let the good times roll!!!!

    • LinRP

      “We fought the good fight. We just didn’t win,” Speaker John Boehner said”……

      The “good fight” just added $24 billion dollars to the Federal debt. That was a good time rolling, indeed.

      Remember that number the next time the Tea Party wants to slash discretionary spending because they want the Government to be fiscally responsible.

      • Fiscally_Responsible

        The $24 billion (if that is the right number) is peanuts compared to the trillions of dollars of deficits that Obamacare will add.

        • Ray in VT

          Trillions? Have a citation for that?

          • Don_B1

            Don’t hold your breath waiting for one. If one should be provided, it will be from the equivalent of a fly-by-night-operation, with nothing that can survive the light of day.

        • Don_B1

          More money is being added to the deficits right now due to Tea Party machinations than President Obama’s policies. He did not set the safety net levels deservedly raised the spending that has continued while the unemployment levels are larger than they should be.

          But you whole goal here is to reduce the safety net so the wealthy can get another percent of two of the economic pie.

    • MrNutso

      We should cut spending. End $40B in oil company subsidies, $40B in farm subsidies, cut DOD from spending the equal to the next 14 countries to say only the next 5.

      • thequietkid10

        Can we implement means testing, raise the age of retirement for those under 35 and reform Medicare and Medicaid too? I’ll even let you raise taxes.

        • William

          There will never be any reforms on entitlement programs so just let them stand or fail on their own.

      • William

        I agree. Slash and burn all of them including Google and GE. Bail out of any country that we don’t own the land and bring the troops home. Slash spending across the board by ten percent and RIF ten percent of the federal workforce.

    • Don_B1

      The Tea Party has already wasted $24 billion in your accounting methods, so you have not complaint!

      But much worse is the $700 BILLION less in GDP and 900,000 fewer people employed because of Tea/Republican machinations over just the last 3 years, as reported by the Peter G. Peterson Foundation (no “liberal” think tank in any way).

      The report of a study by Macroeconomics Advisors is available for downloading (pdf) at this link:

      http://pgpf.org/special-reports/the-cost-of-crisis-driven-fiscal-policy

      A discussion of the report is available here:

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/10/16/study-congresss-budget-battles-have-cost-us-700-billion/

      A theory on the reasoning of how business, particularly small business, is being ignored can be found here:

      http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/12/business-and-the-gop/?_r=0

  • Fiscally_Responsible

    What comes next is full focus on the disaster that Obamacare has been so far and will continue to be in terms of its rollout, website access, ability to enroll people, catering to special interests such as big business/unions by giving them special breaks until after next year’s election, and massive fraud that will be thrust upon the American public by greedy “health care providers” and others who have honed their skills defrauding medicare and medicaid for billions and are now in search of a really big prize. Now that we have Obamacare, everyone will be having their toenails clipped at $100 a pop by a “professional”. The one fortunate aspect of having the budget/debt limit discussion sidelined for the time being is that we will no longer be distracted. Hopefully, the mainstream media and left wing publications like The Nation will be honest in their assessment rather than kowtowing to the liberals in government (Obama, the Senate) and sticking to their threadbare philosophy that government can never be too big or too intrusive.

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      You need to expand your source of news beyond fox and rage radio.

      • Fiscally_Responsible

        So what media do you get your information from? If you are excluding all conservative sources, then it is biased and only represents a single shallow viewpoint. Much of what the mainstream media reports as “news” is really opinion masking a news.

        I do watch Fox as it covers many stories that the mainstream media is too biased or shallow to cover. But I also get much of my news from NPR, CNN, Economist and Time magazines, newspapers, even reading The Nation online (as reactionary and left wing biased that is with Hurricane Katrina doing the editing). So I have a balanced source of news.

        • Don_B1

          It is worth reading your conservative news sources to know how super-shallow they are and how detached from reality they are.

          And when any fact comes up that points out their errors, they just ignore the fact and repeat their false claims. They are so lost in their ideological fog that they cannot see the shoals they are headed for.

    • John Cedar

      My mom already was getting her toenails clipped at the podiatrist. She is a retired teacher and retired with a contract calling for her to never contribute a dime to premiums. She is 80 and says she can’t really clip them herself.

      • jefe68

        That means she uses Medicare and if she was in a Union she has a decent pension. If not then she also has SS.

        And here you are coming off as this rabid right winger advocating for policies that would take away the very programs your 80 year old mom needs.

        • John Cedar

          Sandra Fluke and Obama took the funding to pay for her birth control. Not anything I supported.

      • Don_B1

        Since you have so much time to repeat false rants here, you should spend a bit more time with her and then you could clip her toenails for her and save the podiatrist visits and the charges to Medicare, and we all could benefit.

    • JGC

      Many older people have mobility problems that do not permit them to do something as simple and essential as bending over to trim their toenails.

      Keeping the nails trimmed helps prevent fungal infections and ingrown nails, and snagging their feet on the carpet as they walk across the room, etc. I don’t know about your $100 cost estimate for toenail trimming, but I do know even that would be cheaper than a stay at the hospital because of infection or broken bones.

  • sickofthechit

    I was most disappointed in nancy pelosi being unable to resist sticking the knife in and twisting it in Boehners side. Of all the classless things she could of done, she once again went to the extreme. charles a. bowsher

    • Fiscally_Responsible

      It’s not hard to understand. Backstabbing, hypocritical liberals like Pelosi stab people in the back. By the way, I wonder if her and other multimillionaires will be enrolling in Obamacare, or is that “only for the little people”?

      • Ray in VT

        I believe that Nancy Pelosi has health insurance via her employer. I’d take Obamacare over one of the other main options available to “the little people”, namely not having health insurance.

    • Daniel

      Pelosi is a classless pig.

      • Don_B1

        Minority Leader Pelosi has more class in her little finger than Speaker Boehner has in his whole body. The straight face he maintains while mouthing proven false insults at Democrats and inanity after inanity is marvelous, though.

    • Don_B1

      Do you have a link to what she actually said?

  • sickofthechit

    Highlight of the week was hearing the Republican House Member from Virginia, Scott Riggell who was on NPR and was lamenting the total lack of Civility on both sides of the aisle. I’m a registered Democrat (originally registered as independent in my youth but Kentucky doesn’t allow independents to vote in Primaries so I switched to democratic since they were closest to my beliefs). I was finally pleased enough last year with the Republicans candidate for Agricultural Commissioner that I cast my first ever Republican vote. My dad would have been so proud. charles a. bowsher

  • sickofthechit

    “Civility is Not Weakness published in U.S News

    By Rep. Scott Rigell (VA-2)

    In 2010, US News published an article titled, “Tip O’Neill and Reagan and Model for Breaking Partisan Gridlock.”
    It highlighted the efforts made by Speaker Tip O’Neill and President Ronald Reagan to elevate the well-being of the country above the political priorities of their parties.

    In the article, Rep. Frank Wolf said: “You have to develop the relationship before bipartisanship. A lot of [relationship building] was done after hours. [Reagan and O’Neill] got together, they broke bread, they told stories and they did
    things that… helped… to make some accomplishments.”

    There is a lot to be said for these two men. They disagreed,
    sometimes sharply. At times they publicly fought, yet they found common ground, and the country benefited from that.

    During the Reagan years inflation decreased from 12.5% in 1980 to 4.4% in 1988, and unemployment decreased from 10.8% in 1982 to 5.3% in 1988. The economy improved, and the United States was viewed as the world’s economic leader. I am certain that none of these accomplishments would have been realized if these two leaders had allowed the country to be paralyzed by legislative gridlock.

    We are first, foremost, and always Americans. We must not forget there is far more that binds us together than separates us, though often obscured by clouds of partisanship. Common ground surely exists. For the future of our great Republic we must find that common ground, and soon.”

    • hennorama

      A few facts about President Reagan and Federal Revenues and Spending:

      Averages for Fiscal Years 1981 through 1988, as percentages of GDP (this assumes one attributes the Presidential transition Fiscal Year 1981 entirely to Reagan’s administration, which is debatable):

      Federal Revenue 18.18
      Federal Spending 22.40
      Federal DEFICIT -4.22

      For comparison purposes, so far under President Obama (with the same caveat about FY 2009 as above):

      Averages for Fiscal Years 2009 through 2013 (estimated), as percentages of GDP:

      Federal Revenue 15.75
      Federal Spending 23.43
      Federal DEFICIT -7.68

      If OMB Estimates hold (unlikely, but the comparison is interesting) through FY 2016, then the averages for Fiscal Years 2009 though 2016 would work out to be:

      Federal Revenue 16.66
      Federal Spending 23.06
      Federal DEFICIT -6.40

      One notices the much lower Revenue figures during President Obama’s administration thus far, as well as in the future estimates. Spending averages (again assuming the estimates hold) are similar. Again, the major difference is in the REVENUE side.

      A few other tidbits about the Reagan years:

      - Unemployment averaged 7.5%.
      - Public debt roughly tripled.
      - Poverty ranged from low of 13.0% in 1980 & 1988 to 1983′s high of 15.2%
      - 8 straight years of deficits

      And President Reagan was followed by Pres. Bush I, whose four year administration had average Deficits of 3.98% of GDP.

      Sound familiar?

    • Don_B1

      You treat the two economic downturns as equivalent, but they are decidedly different.

      The 1981-1983 Recessions were caused by Chairman Paul Volcker’s actions at the Federal Reserve in raising the discount rate to drive down the expectations of inflation that arose from the stagflation that resulted from OPEC’s oil price climbing. When Chairman Volcker determined that inflation expectations had been sufficiently tamped down, he lowered the discount rate and the economy improved robustly over the next year and a half. The huge spending by the Reagan administration on weapons, etc., of course helped put people to work once the economy improved. See. hennorama in this thread.

      The Great Recession of 2007-2009 was caused by big banks encouraging shadow banks to lend to unqualified mortgagees, package them into derivatives (CDOs, etc.) to sell to pension funds, etc. where they proved worth much less than advertised after Lehman Brothers declared bankruptcy, and A.I.G. had to be rescued from the huge overleveraging its London office had used to make unwinable bets. This caused a massive decline in spending by consumers and businesses which forced the layoffs that made consumers even more skittish about spending. Which led businesses to further cut back on buying capital equipment and hiring new workers or taking back laid off ones. When businesses see no return on any investments, they don’t make them, which means that they don’t borrow money either and interest rates drop. But interest rates cannot go below zero (people would just hold the money – in Japan’s liquidity trap, Japanese businessmen used to quip that the only products selling well were safes) so the economy keeps plunging until the government does spend some money to put people to work and get them spending again, when the economy will continue one just as the bicycle learner gets support from someone holding the bike balanced until the rider pedals away.

      I think you need to come to terms with the difference and realize that more government spending now will get the economy moving and provide growth for all workers in the middle- and lower-income groups sooner than waiting for capital goods to wear out and need replacement for a weak stimulus to growth. It is the Republicans that have prevented this and kept the GDP from growing by $700 billion and jobs from growing by over 900,000, as I stated with links in another post.

      I can understand your frustration and the misinformation steadily put out by the radical right has not been helpful in learning what is necessary in this condition, which is different from all other recessions since the ones that caused the Great Depression.

  • Dab200

    So I would like to know how much money all the members of congress but esp. Congressman Cruz earned on the stock market by threatening default. The stock market fell yesterday but goes up today. When you actually make this happen you can really benefit. Will someone, please, follow the money?

    • JGC

      At that level of government, do lawmakers put their money into a blind trust to avoid conflict of interest? Mandatory or not mandatory? Maybe my cyberaccountant Mike_Card would have some insight into this question.

      • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

        One things for sure, it’s a virtual blind trust as they are blinded by ideology :^))

      • John Cedar

        Don’t you watch 60 Minutes (of liberalism) every Sunday? They did a story a while back about it being perfectly legal for our national lawmakers to do insider trading.

    • Don_B1

      There is at least a rumor that Rep. Barton (R, TX) had been “cashing out” of the market [stocks, bonds?] earlier this week. I hope it isn’t true, but it would not surprise me.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    One estimate I heard is that these antics cost the economy 23 billion dollars. I think ee should send the bill to the t party members of congress and they can divey it up amongst themselves.

    • MrNutso

      Heard this morning it was about $24.6B.

      • Don_B1

        Just frosting on the over $700 BILLION their machinations have cost in lost GDP over the last three years! see my post elsewhere on this page.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Using your logic you would have to send 90% of the bill to Reid and Obama since they blocked 5 bills passed in the house that would have funded most of the government. btw – piecemeal spending bills IS the usual order. What Reid and Obama were demanding was unusual.

      Taking your logic further, Obama owes us $1T per year. Why? There was a study that estimated that new regulations the Obama regime have added cost the economy $1T per year. We could keep going….

      • Ray in VT

        What study is that? The number that I have seen is that is the total “cost” of all regulations that exist, not the ones that have come into existence under President Obama.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          I’d have to look it up. But if the study is accurate, do you think Obama should pay it back?

          • Ray in VT

            Why? Was anyone else required to do so.

            Heritage pegged it at $70 during the first term, so I would like to see your source:

            http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/red-tape-rising-regulation-in-obamas-first-term

            Do we also count regulations to increase fuel economy standards or to reduce mercury pollution? I’m sure that those both cost, but the benefits likely far outweigh the cots.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Obama has added regs but there were many more that pre-dated Obama. I’m interested cleaning up the total regs — not just Obama regs.

            From the Heritage piece on total regs:
            “Estimates range from hundreds of billions of dollars to nearly $2 trillion each year.”

            I think every regulation needs a documented cost/benefit justification to be instituted. Also, every regulation should have an automatic sunset so it can be revisited after we have data on the regulatory cost.

            You are correct. Some regs are worth it but I suspect we have many more that aren’t.

          • Ray in VT

            Well, then say that instead of going after the current “regime” with a highly questionable number.

            I think that cost benefit is a good idea, but if something saves lives, for instance, what value do we place on life? I would not be in favor automatic sunsets, as something very useful could get delayed by a guy in the Senate reading Green Eggs and Ham or by a Speaker that listens to a highly vocal minority that decides to gum up the works.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            You do understand that I was mocking MadMark’s idea in my original posting? I wasn’t ‘serious’.

          • Ray in VT

            I was merely responding to your regulation figure and the subsequent comments, which I took to be genuine.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            No, I just pulled it from my feeble memory.

            However, your prompting allowed me to find this gem.

            “new standards for smog emissions being pushed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) would be the most expensive regulations in history.”

            “The Republicans said the standards would be impossible for some states
            to achieve and could result in up to $1 trillion in new costs for
            businesses.”

            Clearly that isn’t an annual number but 1 regulation == $1T.

            The EPA estimated the cost at $90B/year. They justified it with $100B/year in health savings. I suspect the true numbers are somewhere in between.

            http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/305081-lawmakers-debate-most-expensive-regulation-ever

  • Ray in VT

    How about that congressional stenographer getting removed?

    • jefe68

      That was weird, and kind of scary.

      • Ray in VT

        Yeah. I’ve seen comments about a couple of the things that she said, but I couldn’t really make it all out on the video that I watched.

    • TFRX

      During the big 1970-something snowstorm in Chicago, a plow driver was on duty for some 20 hours and simply went nuts from the stress and fatigue. (No cite yet.)

      Perhaps the house steno burned out from having to write down all those words and cogitate them.

      Folks like you and I enjoy politics avocationally and we get to get to turn off the media and put down the paper (or close the website) when we’ve had enough Congressional speeches and accompanying punditry. Others are not so lucky.

      • Ray in VT

        I never thought about that. Imagine having to take down all of that speechifying to the empty chamber. Do they get hazard pay?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Maybe she saw one too many National Treasure flicks?

  • Ray in VT
    • jimino

      This gives us a blueprint for a calculated and systematic effort to remove or reduce federal spending. We start and focus on these States and make their voters responsible for who they send to DC. And they get what they say they want. Win win!

  • Ray in VT

    And the breakdown in the House:

    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll550.xml

  • margbi

    Second verse same as the first. We’ll be having this fight all over again in February or whenever the current period of adjustment is over.

    • Ray in VT

      I wonder if it will be a little bit louder and a little bit worse?

    • Haley Hieronymus

      No we won’t. Because the law includes the McConnell rule (the “Debt Ceiling Disapproval Process” section). It implements automatic debt ceiling increases, only able to be stopped by a veto-proof disapproval vote passage by both houses.

      No more debt ceiling fights.

    • NewtonWhale

      No, we won’t. Not over raising the debt ceiling, and not over shutting down the government.

      Boehner proved that the debt ceiling is a hostage he’s not prepared to shoot. He won’t try that again because it would be an empty threat.

      As for the budget, there will be tough negotiations. But who believes Republicans will shut down the government again in an election year after the bloodbath they just took in their approval rating?

  • Haley Hieronymus

    What comes next? Despite the press, what comes next will not be another debt ceiling showdown next year.

    The new law implements the McConnell rule, which automatically raises the debt ceiling. The automatic increases can only be stopped by a disapproval vote passing both houses of Congress (which the president can veto).

    This means the debt ceiling is effectively dead. This is a huge deal. It is also a large part of the text of the law, the Debt Ceiling Disapproval Process. I don’t know why the press is largely ignoring this and often stating that the debt ceiling will fight will resume in Feb.

  • MrNutso

    The best comment I’ve heard after the deal was that it was better to kick the can down the road to deal with in 3 months, then to crush the can today.

  • HonestDebate1

    Now that we have signaled to the market that we have no intention of exercising any fiscal sanity, I wonder if our credit rating will be downgraded.

    • John Cedar

      Regardless of what the guys that were rating sub-prime mortgages wrong, say about US debt risk, where ya gonna park a trillion dollars that’s safer these days?

      • HonestDebate1

        Under the mattress.

        • Labropotes

          Precious metals, real estate, vodka in glass bottles, treasure in heaven. Cash loses 1.5% of its purchasing power each year assuming you live to spend it.

          John is right in that US treasuries are a low volatility (safe) investment in which to lose purchasing power.

    • Fredlinskip

      Ever hear of budget negotiations?
      You know those things GOP avoided for 6 months running n order to launch an attempted coup so as to willfully damage our own economy and fellow Americans (brilliant strategy!).
      They are beginning today.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    There was a lot of back slapping last night amongst the political elite last night.

    But are we any closer to a balanced budget and paying down the massive debt?

    • John Cedar

      We can’t pay down the debt because we can’t even close the deficit or at least bring it back to the worse deficit in history*** the year Bush borrowed money for TARP.

      ***Not counting all the deficits Obama ran since Bush’s record, which were all worse than the year of the financial meltdown.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        The master plan is to inflate and spend our way out of debt.

    • Fredlinskip

      Well at least actual budget negotiations will begin.
      What a novel idea.

  • HonestDebate1

    Our government treated the occupy scum better than they did our WWII veterans.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX8AoB3zX0o#t=125

    • John Cedar

      The same people did that, who cut grandma’s medicare in order to give Sandra Fluke free no copay birth control pills, so she wouldn’t have to cut back on the $5 latte at Starbucks.

      • TFRX

        You really should learn some history.

  • John Cedar

    We avoided total protonic reversal
    Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!

    But the libruls missed their chance to knock ‘merica down where she belongs and get the world off the US dollar.

  • jimino

    The administration should begin to identify exactly what and where cuts should be made, then watch the so-called fiscal conservatives who represent those districts howl about how their federal spending is absolutely off limits. Let’s begin the process of exposing the hypocrites, then maybe we can have an actual debate for the first time ever.

    • Labropotes

      Let’s begin the process in good faith and we may find that our adversaries are not hypocrites. Let’s concentrate on values we share, and on our limited means.

      • J__o__h__n

        Despite years of evidence to the contrary?

        • Labropotes

          Yeah, Man, turn it into Love!

    • Enuff_of_this

      The administartion should work on expanding the sequester cuts to 20% across the board. It seems to work much better if the cuts are imposed without the backroom deals and affect everyone at the same rate.

      • sickofthechit

        Not when Headstart is a program that returns $7.00 in increased economic performance for every dollar spent. Let’s see the Energy companies match that, or the Defense industry!
        Not bloddy likely. charles a. bowsher

        • Enuff_of_this

          Everyone eats it at the same rate or no one does. That is the only way it will work, otherwise you end up with what we have now—unsustainable government

          • hypocracy1

            Everyone eats at the same rate? Tell that to all the kids going to bed hungry tonight.

          • Enuff_of_this

            Then perhaps their parents should have made better choices

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    I wonder how many members of Congress who voted for it knew that was in it. What else was buried in the bill?

    We know that they stuck in a death annuity gift of $174,000 to the widow of Senator Frank Lautenberg. Courtesy of the taxpayers. She is worth north of $50M.

    The club is still doing well.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    We need some systemic changes.

    Perhaps zero based budgeting every 5 years so we can clean out the hidden bloat and re-prioritize for the folks.

    Maybe to make it less disruptive you can do 20% of the government each year on a rolling schedule.

  • margbi

    Thanks for the update. I hadn’t heard this and I hope you are correct.

  • jefe68

    What comes next? More bloviating from the regressive right wingers who seem to love the smell of egg on their faces.
    As we see on this very forum.

    Seems some in Cruz’ home town are having voters remorse.
    Houston Chronicle editorial that has stated it made a mistake endorsing him and that they miss Kay Bailey Hutchison.

    http://www.chron.com/opinion/editorials/article/Why-we-miss-Kay-Bailey-Hutchison-4898405.php?cmpid=opedhprr

    I think Ted Cruz’ political life in the GOP is pretty much over.

    • Ray in VT

      They’ve ended up doing is creating one of the greatest political disasters I’ve ever seen in my lifetime. I was trying to think if ever in my life, I could remember any major political party being so irrelevant. I have never seen it.

      • jefe68

        And they got nothing for it. Except the wrath of the population.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Paul Begala: “Ted Cruz Is A Big Winner”

      “the Cruz brand is way up. I’m from Texas, I grew up there and I talked to friends today, and the business community is furious. Business Republicans are furious, but the grassroots loves this”

      http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/10/16/paul_begala_ted_cruz_is_a_big_winner.html

      Your post reminds me of the bill boards the started popping up after two years of Obama.
      “Miss me yet?”

      “http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/08/bush-billboard-looms-over_n_454056.html

      • jefe68

        You folks really do live in an alternative universe.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Begala? I thought he was part of your ‘universe’.

          • StilllHere

            The center of it. Don’t let them kid you. They’re sheep.

      • Ray in VT

        By all means, let folks like Cruz rile up the base as much as possible. They can win national elections just with that, right?

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Hmmm. I wonder if they said Reagan was just riling up the base when he took on the establishment in 1976.

          Political tactics aside, Cruz has been spot on highlighting systemic problems with Obamacare.

          • jefe68

            You seem to know nothing about Reagan.
            Or are very selective in what you chose to remember about his tenure in the Oval office.

            Besides, the extremist that Cruz’ represents is a minority of about 18% of the country. You can’t win elections with that. As I said you live in some alternative universe. It reminds me how the GOP thought they won the general election in 2012. They refused to believe the polls.
            Which is what Cruz is doing. The Huston Chronicle has lambasted him and if this keeps up, which no doubt it will, because he’s an egomaniac, I suspect he will be thrown out of office in the next election cycle.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            A)” I wonder if they said Reagan was just riling up the base when he took on the establishment in 1976.”

            B)”You seem to know nothing about Reagan.”

            OK, wise guy. How do you get from A to B.

            The McCain “whacko bird” types were pretty upset with Reagan in ’76 for taking on Ford. But the peeps were with Reagan and he went on to win in two landslide elections. I seem to recall the MSM saying Reagan could never win a general election.

          • jefe68

            For one Reagan never put party before the nation. Do you get that? Are you so far up the black hole of your ideology that you can’t see what went down here would never have been endorsed by Reagan?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I’ll agree that Regan wouldn’t have behaved the way Obama did.

          • jefe68

            I rest my case.

          • StilllHere

            You will have little success convincing racists of this. The chap below is the worst.

          • jefe68

            Oy vay.

          • Ray in VT

            Mashugana.

          • Ray in VT

            Well, his states rights talk in Philadelphia, MS certainly ingratiated himself and his party to the South. Last I checked, though, GOP presidential candidates have lost 5 out of the last 6 popular votes at the presidential level, including two against a man who is supposedly the most radical, extremist liberal to ever hold the Oval Office. If the GOP thinks that it can win the moderates by running further to the right, then I am fine to sit back and let them do that. I might even vote for ole Raphael in Vermont’s 2016 primary. ;)

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Reagan was 3,761 votes (MN) from taking all 50 states in 1984.

          • Ray in VT

            Those were back in the days when the GOP could compete in the Northeast. I can’t see a candidate from either party getting above 45 (tops) states currently. George W. Bush got nearly 45 percent of the vote in Vermont in 2000. Romney got 31.2%. Democrats, similarly, don’t have a chance in Oklahoma.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Don’t remind me about the 2012 election. I’ll just get depressed.

            I can say with certainty we wouldn’t be in this bad place if Romney had been elected. No shut down and working toward solutions.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, the GOP wouldn’t have shut down the government on a Republican President. Thankfully we avoided that possibility. I think that the stonewalling and such regarding the budget over these past 6 months speaks volumes as to how committed the GOP members of Congress are to working towards solutions.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I think Molly Ball just covered why there is a budget impasse. The Dems offered a budget that lifted the 2011 budget control act spending levels and raised an additional $1T in taxes. The GOP offered more cuts. They were too far apart to even start.

          • Ray in VT

            So the solution was to not even not try, but to block efforts to set up a committee to try?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I don’t have an answer. I heard Senator Mike Lee explain it — that Reid was demanding intolerable rules on the budget conference. I didn’t understand it enough to know if it was complete BS.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    Our T party Congress rails against unproductive, inefficient government workers while they themselves as government employees have created the most unproductive congress in history and their antics have cost the US over 24 billion dollars, halted projects, impacted schedules, slowed investment, done damage to scientific studies, undermined consumer confidence, slowed investment, slowed the economy and created the very ‘uncertainty in the markets’ that they have campaigned against in recent election cycles.

    And then there is the impact on our standing overseas where you’ll see that they are pretty much viewed as idiots all around the world and the president’s forced absence let China take lead at the Asia Pacific economic summit.

    I don’t know but with that kind of performance, Anyone I know would fired in a heart beat.

    So with that kind of track record, some voters should ask themselves if their representative is really doing anything whatsoever in their interests.

  • Jeff

    I’m honestly hoping that the talks about the major debt issues are addressed by sweeping legislation. We need tax reform, entitlement reform and cuts to military spending. Once final thing is that these people in Congress need to focus on education…but not just continue to do the same thing (i.e. more loans, higher tuition). I’d really like to see education reform where people can gain in demand skills within 6 months (post secondary school) in order to get into a good paying job…the 4 year degree packs too much fluff, it’s too slow, it’s too expensive and can’t respond quickly to today’s market.

    • Vandermeer

      All good ideas! We need to “make it work”!

    • fun bobby

      so when you produce millions of people with those 6 month degrees what are they going to do? what job will they be trained for? wont millions of people with quickie degrees drive down the wage in that field? there are many job training programs that are not 4 year degrees already

  • TomK_in_Boston

    The sequester class warfare austerity budget was supposed to be so horrible it wd force negotiations. It didn’t. Now we got it again. This budget is a disaster. Unless we can get more spending and revenues in the next few months this is not a “win” but another step toward oligarchy.

    • Fiscally_Responsible

      More spending? You’ve got to be kidding! Isn’t $4 trillion a year or so enough? Actually you are probably right. When millions of people start losing their jobs due to Obamacare, we will dramatically have to increase spending on welfare and umployment compensation.

    • fun bobby

      we have been a plutocracy for a while now. I think the sequester is just a small step in the right direction. ultimately the plutocrats are the ones benefitting from government spending.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Right direction? Maybe far-right. We have 3′rd world infrastructure, we’re losing our edge in science b/c of R&D cuts, cutting spending after a gigantic financial crash is economic suicide. We need a lot more spending, energy and high speed rail projects, more “Big Dig” type projects etc, financed by higher taxes at the top and on the corporations.

        The #1 reason we’ve become a plutocracy is tax cuts. We are in dire need of progressive taxation.

        • fun bobby

          have you been to the third world recently?
          we need more debacles like the big dig? WOW now I have heard it all. tell me more about what a great project that was that we ought to have more like it. corporations and high net worth individuals are tax averse and will simply leave if you tax them too much. that being said I think we could do a lot on the revenue side if we took some measures to stop transfer pricing.

  • J__o__h__n

    Why did Boehner waste so much time delaying the vote when he wasn’t able to deliver any more Republican votes at the end of the (for lack of a better term) process than he was at the beginning. He is an ineffective Speaker and should resign. He can’t control his caucus and he can’t work across the aisle. One of those is needed to get anything done.

    • sickofthechit

      He’s only half as bad as Harry Reid. Why can’t Joe Biden step in and take it over? I know he only gets to vote in case of ties, but I guarantee he could get a lot of good stuff done if he was majority leader of the Senate. Joe has gotten a bad rap, charles a. bowsher

  • Vandermeer

    Thanks Pumpkin HEAD!

    • TFRX

      I think more lowly of Ted Cruz’ ambitions, words and conduct than many, many people, but I don’t know that this is the forum to post Photoshops like that.

      • Vandermeer

        my original political cartoon okay?… it has a message just like those in prose. sorry if you disagree, i respect your criticism … but i am expressing my disgust over Cruz’s words and the cost to this nation of the shut down.

        • William

          Seems pretty racist attack on a Hispanic Senator.

          • StilllHere

            All criticism of Cruz has its foundation in racism but because he’s a Republican it’s ok.

          • JGC

            I think many people resent his dual Canadian/U.S. citizenship…including Ted Cruz himself.

          • Ray in VT

            I think that question that people should be asking is whether or not he is a part of some secret Canadian plot to bring down America. Those hosers.

          • TFRX

            I could understand a Canadian plot like “increasing heart disease by putting soft cheese and gravy on French fries”, but can’t for the life of me figure out how that will be worse for those of us in the USA than a Triple Baconator.

          • Ray in VT

            I bet it’s Canadian bacon.

          • TFRX

            Canadian Bacon has less fat and more protein than good ol’ American bacon, doesn’t it?

            How about their “smoked meat”, which sounds innocent enough, but is really a lot like pastrami? Mmmm, nitrates.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s just a filthy Canadian lie. They’re tricksy. Like Hobbits.

          • JGC

            First we sent in Alan Thicke. Then Justin Bieber. Now Ted Cruz. And we’re not finished yet – CGI Group out of Montreal is still feverishly working on the IT “solution” to its Obamacare website disaster, which it so ingeniously stitched together out of bastardized code in its evil hi-tech Canadian laboratory (Insert diabolical laugh here.)

          • Ray in VT

            But you forgot to mention their attempts to create chaos on the American roads by sending down drivers from Quebec.

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT – it’s actually not a secret Canadian plot, although as always:

            Blame Canada.

            Cuban sleeper Sen. Rafael Edward Cruz, son of Castro revolutionary Rafael Bienvenido Cruz, is attempting to sabotage the U.S. economy in order to foment revolution.

            Canada clearly is involved, but only tangentially.

          • Ray in VT

            Maybe Castro designed this whole thing. Good thinking.

          • fun bobby

            one would think democrats would like that since they think we should adopt Canadian gun control and healthcare here

          • jefe68

            Yawn.

          • J__o__h__n

            Would Honest Debate like to add “That’s sick.” here?

          • Ray in VT

            Don’t tell him what he thinks. ;)

          • Ray in VT

            Is there some pumpkin-hispanic connection that I am not aware of? Maybe it’s just an attack on his Canadian birth.

          • Guest

            I didn’t even know this guy was a Latino… I just know he is a misguided psycholegislator.

          • Vandermeer

            If I wanted to be racist, I would have called him a “Calabaza. How do you know that I am not part Latino myself?

        • TFRX

          I respect your efforts. Not so long ago, people could post anonymously here. Now it’s registration-required, or tied into another account elsewhere.

          PS Didn’t know that was your own work.And I guess that’s different than just reflexively reposting an image you found on the internet somewhere.

          • Vandermeer

            Thanks!

    • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

      That’s $80 per capita. Not exactly pocket change, but also probably not enough to bring out the mob with pitchforks.

  • stephenreal

    Speaker Boehner has been through so many donnybrooks it’s amazing to see him come out unscath once again. The Republican party needs to broaden the base and punish the Tea Partyists.

    • fun bobby

      join up

      • stephenreal

        it’s purely observation and stratagem

        • fun bobby

          you don’t think you would be able to broaden their base?

          • stephenreal

            are you ok?

          • fun bobby

            oh are you just another racist uneducated white guy?

          • StilllHere

            I think you’re trying to find an open mind where there is none.

  • stephenreal

    Republican party needs the Mitch McConnell’s and John McCain’s to hold what’s left of their middle.
    On the other hand the greater American middle is so big that the Republican party is missing a great opportunity to split the Democratic base to sacrifice their extremist wing for growing a broader base for Party.

  • ThirdWayForward

    Big money lies behind this political and economic madness.

    The Koch Brothers are the individuals most responsible for this situation by arming the radical right Tea Party with hundreds of millions of dollars that are used by their puppet donee institutions to extort compliance from the rest of the Republican Party. Money is political leverage.

    The Kochs should pay for the costs of this shutdown debacle to the government and the economy.

    Ted Cruz and the other Tea Party zombies are just minions, and their power will evaporate when the Koch Brothers decide that it is not in their interest to foment such fear and disorder.

    The points of control are the Kochs and other loose-cannon plutocrats who fuel the wacko right, who provide its lifeblood — money — those are the people who we need to convince to find some other more constructive political outlets for their riches.

    It will not happen until we recognize the nature of the problem, and begin to shame them in a big way.

    Beyond public shaming, we need some structural reforms to reign in the hereditary aristocracy:

    Tax extreme wealth to pay off the national debt (e.g. 2% per year on wealth exceeding $100 million).

    Enforce an absolute ceiling on the size of inherited fortunes ($100 million).

    Tax capital gains minimally at the same rates as wages.

    Make all political donations above $10,000 public.

    • fun bobby

      that would be a great narrative but the Koch bros were against the shutdown

      http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/09/20886586-kochs-to-congress-focus-on-spending-not-obamacare?lite

      • StilllHere

        The 1% uses the government to take money from the 99%. A shutdown meant less flowing into their coffers of evil. Bwaaaaaaa!

        • JGC

          Maybe the Kochs renounced it , but it was pretty much at the 11th hour. They are like twin Dr. Frankensteins who made their creation Heritage Action, and then were shocked (shocked!) when it went rampaging through the American village.

          • StilllHere

            Come on, stick to your narrative. These guys are diabolically evil so don’t underestimate them. HA is doing exactly what they are instructed to. Bwaaaa!

          • JGC

            I’m always a sucker for a good evil laugh.

        • jefe68

          Troll.

  • MarionBu

    I disagree with the teaparty, but I think they did something good. When I became an American citizen I was reminded how our duty is to participate in our democracy because the politicians are the representatives of the people. The teaparty politicians show a good example in that matter and I hope they reminded the Americans that they must vote and participate more. I don’t think we should blame the politicians.

    • stephenreal

      gerrymandering districts is definitely to blame.

      • MarionBu

        so as citizens, how can we change that?

        • stephenreal

          study the history of gerrymandering

    • fun bobby

      ultimately we get the government we deserve because we could vote them out if we wished

      • StilllHere

        It’s sad that so many have to be educated on how democracy works.

        • jefe68

          Yeah, you could use some schooling.

        • fun bobby

          its sad that the public schools don’t teach kids about it since its not on the MCAS. a conspiracy theorist might think they do not want kids to know of such things. I got in trouble one time for teaching a lesson on the bill of rights when I was following a federal requirement to do so. The kids really enjoyed it, they never knew about the rights they have.

          • StilllHere

            That must be why educating those here comes so naturally to you. Thank you for your service.

          • fun bobby

            De nada. I do what I can.

  • StilllHere

    I was disappointed we didn’t have a chance to go through the exercise of prioritizing expenditures that a default would have necessitated. But there’s always hope!
    Thankfully the benefits of Obama’s sequester were not squandered. In any case, we get to do it all over again very soon. Looking forward to it!

    • jefe68

      There it is, the bile of a nihilist.

      • fun bobby

        Drink!

    • J__o__h__n

      The government isn’t equipped to pay obligations that way. There were several stories on it.

    • anamaria23

      Obviously you do not know anyone affected by this shutdown. “Looking forward to it”, indicates the need for some soul searching and greater maturity.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I’ve got my eye on Senator Linda Murray and Congressman Paul Ryan, who I somehow think are in charge of plotting the course of the debt, i.e., the budget. I don’t see how the revenue side can be addressed with the degree of lack of transparency Citizens United allowed for in the money that greases the wheels of Congress. Can all our elected officials specify which lobbyists, with how much dollar inputs, and through which front organizations, are responsible for which particular corporate loophole? I doubt it. An across-the-board cut in corporate rates coupled with filling of those loopholes/potholes might be a blow to lobbyists, the degree of their usefulness, but the People would come out ahead. Then we have to square with the demographics, that we live longer, but if we haven’t taken good care to eat well and stay active, that living longer will cost Medicare a huge amount of money. If you do take care, you can continue paying taxes way past 65. Incentives needed for all that.

  • MrStang

    “one of the easiest meetings we’ve ever had.”
    Shameful indeed.
    OUT OUT OUT with these sociopathic Koch/Petersen Teapublican Clown Zombies in 2014

    • fun bobby

      so you will not be voting for them again?

  • stephenreal

    It would not surprise me to Speaker Boehner and McConnell come together to push some kind of reform because of this such a huge party split within the Republican party itself.

  • iccheap

    This should not happen again. With a deadline many months in the distance the proposals to solidify a solid budget should be resolved. No need to travel this path every few months. It’s no way to operate a society. We should all try to understand if our representatives had complicity in this farce and hold them accountable – provided you feel this isn’t an acceptable way to represent us. Even if you don’t change parties, expect more from the party that represents you.

    • fun bobby

      as a democrat I am very disappointed in them yet again

  • creaker

    We get to pay $24 billion to allow 16 days of posturing for a small group in government – talk about entitlements.

    • StilllHere

      That estimate is exhibit one that our government is entirely too big. We’ve arrived at an economy dependent on rampant and wasteful government spending. This is unsustainable and an achilles heel for our future prosperity. We must begin now to reduce the size of government so that individuals and businesses can lead us to a sustainable path into the future.

      • tbphkm33

        In an economy with GDP of $16.633 trillion, how is it logical to argue the federal budget is too big? Tea Baggers like to toss out propaganda talking points, but do not have the critical thinking skills to put things in perspective.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Some reporter stated it’s not so much gerrymandering as the way we’ve “sorted ourselves out,” meaning that like lives near like, and the liberals don’t live near conservatives. That’s probably a city/prairie split, with guns, for instance, causing much more problem in cities, where police are near, than 20 miles from any town, where you need a semiautomatic in case a gang comes upon you.
    I don’t think, therefore, that it’s reasonable to think the Tea Party will be voted out. I think more likely the Hastert rule will fold, and the Republican party will realize that the “reasonable” half of that party can at least be seen as contributing if they make common cause with the Democrats. Is the Hastert rule a law???? I don’t think so.

    • J__o__h__n

      It isn’t a law. Of course when it comes time to elect the Speaker, a majority of the majority party is needed so the Speaker cannot alienate members of his caucus on too many issues.

      The gerrymandering distorts and amplifies the population shifts.

      • TFRX

        “A majority of the majority party”?

        That’s tradition. Doesn’t the entire House vote on the Speakership?

        • Ellen Dibble

          I think the answer is no, and the next likely ones such as Cantor or Ryan are not looking for that job, no way.

        • J__o__h__n

          Yes, but it is rare for people to cross party lines. Conservative Democrat Finneran pulled off a Speakership with a minority of the votes of his party and the addition of Republican votes but that is an exception.

          • TFRX

            I got a prediction for you: The next time the Dems take the House, brace yourself for the following meme: “The only reasonable thing to do is appoint a Republican as Speaker, for bipartisan purposes”.

      • Ellen Dibble

        Like Boehner’s House has achieved so much for a really struggling nation. So many ways of building ourselves up for growth spurts, so many ways of keeping the wheels oiled. His Congress has increased in reputation so much, I’ve noticed. The polls will have to go into negative territory soon. Someone said even their dogs are voting nay.

  • stephenreal

    The Republican party needs a serious redistricting as to broaden their base. This is not the solid south anymore.

  • stephenreal

    The great middle can help the Republican party. It’s clear they can make it happen as a long term stratagem.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    sTrategic idioTs

  • Tom

    from Tom in Vermont:
    Obama should not make deals with the GOP . They should be crushed as irrelevant, so that new parties have a chance to rise. The 2 parties have deliberately blocked out third parties in the past, and now we have only one party. The Republicans will have to re-invent themselves to survive, a bit like the Labor party in Britain had to re-invent itself to become more like the Conservative party, the Republicans with need leaders, but in this case, I am glad to say, will have to re-brand themselves and become more like the Democrats in order to survive.
    WOOOooooo ! ! !

    • Enuff_of_this

      You’re an idiot

      • Tom

        Why? because I want more than 2 parties. I think you should examine yourself in this regard.

        • Enuff_of_this

          Why not sit down with Bob Kiss and Moonie and launch one. There’s you’re third party.

        • Enuff_of_this

          Then get together with kiss, clavelle and for real street cred, polina and create one then.

          • Tom

            I have been part of a brand new political party in the past, and it was forced out by the bi-partisan system. How about you? What have you done?

  • Coastghost

    Ted Cruz: Princeton graduate. Harvard graduate. Harvard Law School graduate. Vetted by the Vaunted Northeast Corridor, from all appearances.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I’m thinking our best and brightest should go to Yale, not Harvard. I seem to recall from way back when that Harvard gets on board in such conservative mode that the project is already outdated once Harvard is there. It’s good to learn old, well-honed skills, like how to play the economy like a banjo for the profit of the plutocracy, but it’s one degree too smart. I am re-evaluating the “vaunted Northeast Corridor,” if that’s what it is, and have been since George W. Bush started telling us that the money we pay in taxes is “your money,” and let’s give it back to you, even if the nation is going to war…

      • fun bobby

        clearly we have been let down by a Harvard grad

    • Art Toegemann

      Still ignorant after all that education.

  • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

    This aeason’s episode of Lunatic Drama has been brought to you by the Tea Party in association with the Republican Caucus.

    Please join us again next January for another presentation of Capricious Lunatic Drama, here on Schadenfreude Theater.

    • fun bobby

      I would think that you of all people would fault both parties for engaging in principle based negotiation instead of interest based negotiation

      • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

        There is nothing any group of politicians could do, since this kind of breakdown is an inherent feature of the Rule of Law.

        I wouldn’t expect anyone in politics or government to see their way clear out of this kind of recurring lunatic drama.

        • fun bobby

          you should look into interest based negotiation. it could easily solve all these problems if that’s what they actually wanted.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            It would be in everyone’s interest to craft a functional architecture for regulating the affairs of human society.

            But that’s not gonna happen in my lifetime (and probably not in yours, either).

          • fun bobby

            actually interest based negotiation is a well developed technique

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            No doubt. But if it’s in everyone’s interest to master Rocket Science or Ethical Reasoning, it still has to overcome the insurmountable obstacle of mastering a competency that barely a tiny fraction of today’s human population is capable of mastering.

          • fun bobby

            interest based negotiation is actually quite simple. it works better if your opponents have already read “getting to yes” but that is not necessary

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            My opponents generally want to get to “No.”

            I haven’t discovered how to process that scenario.

          • fun bobby

            it does not matter if ones opponent is unfamiliar with interest based negotiation it just takes a little longer. how to deal with them is all laid out in “getting to yes”

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            I read that book decades ago, but I still run into characters manifesting Axis II Cluster ‘B’ Personality Disorders who do not respond to any gambit aimed at a mutually beneficial outcome. For reasons unbeknownst to me, they are obsessed with winning, and (to them), that implies that all others have to lose.

          • fun bobby

            narcissists are a disease and quite common in politics and bureaucracy, interest based negotiations allow both sides to win`

  • MrStang

    John Boehner could have clearly held a vote and moved on two weeks ago. He is a coward clinging to his speakership. He cared more for his job than he cared for the people damaged by the shutdown and debt ceiling debacle.
    The Republicans are not fit to govern. They are irresponsible and completely OWNED and privatised.
    The Koch/Petersen Teapublican Zombie Virus must be defeated.
    OUT OUT OUT in 2014

    • fun bobby

      so you won’t be voting for them again?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Didn’t Roger Simon joke about drowning GOP leaders in a bath tub.

    Yup. Lot’s of balance here.

    • lobstahbisque

      If you arrange carefully, the tub doesn’t tip over.

      • Labropotes

        Makes a great chowdah.

        • Ray in VT

          It’s chowdah! Say it right, Frenchie!

    • jimino

      Don’t be silly. It’s a reference to Grover Norquist’s oft-quoted goal reading the drowning of government. You know him, don’t you? He’s the person to whom virtually the entire Republican Congressional delegation has sworn fealty to instead of and to the detriment of our country.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Are you saying Roger Simon doesn’t exhibit left of center bias? Have you read his columns lately?

        “Roger Simon and Media Bias”
        “So here’s Roger Simon, who made his name as a straight reporter at all the right outlets and it turns out that his worldview all along was exactly what the conservative media critics would have expected. ”

        http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/361200/roger-simon-and-media-bias-jonah-goldberg

        • jimino

          I don’t read him or much of what is termed “commentary”, but you must admit he’s playing of the Norquist quote. The difference being that Simon’s kidding to make a point and Norquist isn’t.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Simon started his column with a joke. Nothing to do with Norquist but it had to do with drowning the GOP leaders.

            “Question: If Ted Cruz and John Boehner were both on a sinking ship, who would be saved?

            Answer: America.

            Also, notice that Simon decides to focus on a single knucklehead with a flag at the veteran rally and go on to imply that the right must be racist. It is a distraction from the larger story of the vet rally. It was dishonest and would only be done by someone with a leftist agenda. Why was it dishonest? Because it wasn’t the theme of the event. And Simon isn’t equal opportunity dishonest in his writing. He never points out the knuckleheads at leftist rallys.

            “http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/government-shutdown-racism-roger-simon-98272.html

  • tbphkm33

    A very poignant message for those Tea Baggers who call themselves christian.

    • William

      How much do we spend on the poor? Federal, State, local, churches, private organizations, non-profits like the Ford Foundation, Gates foundation….just a ball park figure…1 year….or go back 50 years of the Great Society programs…what is the figure?

      • tbphkm33

        Spending on the poor is only a fraction of what goes toward corporate welfare or military spending.

        Plus the very fact that there has to be spending on the poor, especially in the numbers we are seeing these days, goes to show the failures of the system. If the Nopublican mandate for more power in the hands of private business is so great, why can’t this same private business sector employ the populace at a living wage?

      • AC

        what does this question matter if you are a christian? i’m not trying to be a smarty pants here, i’m honestly curious how ‘christians’ get through this principle, it seems so hypocritical to me! but i’m not a biblicar scholar, there might be some other philososphy that offsets this i don’t know aboout, is there? i’m seriously interested in understanding this better…

        • Labropotes

          Hi AC, there is a parable about young women preparing to meet suiters. The ritual involves oil lamps being placed at their doors. Some of the women fail to prepare their lamps and appeal to the others to share. Jesus approves not sharing in that case.

          There is another parable about various servants being left in charge of various quantities of money. Those who handle the money well are rewarded, those who do not are castigated.

          • AC

            i don’t disagree, but both of those examples have to do with effort. the poor/sick are not necessarily incapable of effort, it is opportunity that is not present that is the main problem (or a cure, i’m not talking ‘obseisity’, i mean like MS, diabetes) –
            so, i’m not sure that this is thorough enough to count….

          • Labropotes

            Both views are true. Opposites can be true.

            “You are the only young man that I know of who ignores the fact that the future becomes the present, the present the past, and the past turns into everlasting regret if you don’t plan for it.”

            ― Tennessee Williams, The Glass Menagerie

          • Labropotes

            I thought some more about this. Effort and luck as determinants of success are an interesting duality. What do any of us achieve than can’t be attributed to luck, at least in large part?

            It’s a western myth that we determine our fates, but it is a myth I largely accept. It just seems more productive than the opposite.

            I bet which side of that divide one takes is at the root of a lot of political positions.

          • AC

            i don’t think people with MS chose that for their fate tho…i think maybe you’re focusing on the ‘poor’ and not lumping in the sick, but it is expensive to be sick and not be poor. many older people fall into ‘poverty’ levels because of health needs….
            i think there’s been an almost accidental marketing image of ‘poor’ equating to the rachet ghetto greedy welfare hoarders, of which out of 100 recipeints, there’s prob 2 to 3 that actually are that way. the upper middle class couple that went on vacations and gambled or something with their hundreds of thousands of dollars in welfare never get mentioned. nor corporate welfare. i think people that like to look at multiple variables feel irritated by this. i’m more interested in the rationale that excuses certain variables over others…

          • Labropotes

            I agree that no one choses MS. But that I don’t have it is good luck that allows me to accomplish things every day. Good luck for which I can take no credit. I said self-determination was a myth.

            The trick is to discern the deserving from the undeserving. Otherwise the self entitled will multiply to absorb the available resources, depriving the truly needy.

          • JGC

            Could we make some sort of pertinent “deserving” algorithm, program it into a Roomba, and have the Community Nurses deliver it to the suspected not-so-truly-needy?

        • William

          Why is it hypocritical to ask “how much has been spent in the past and what were the results of those programs?”. That is just common sense and a realistic approach to uplifting people in a bad way.

          • AC

            it’s not, necessarily – it is, because i’m pretty sure Jesus doesn’t stop and do it in the bible…or i’m asking for you (or a christinan), to point to the page

      • jimino

        I can’t answer for the entire amount, but our US Senator, Deb Fischer, gets more in free federal grazing privileges every year than a typical food stamp recipient would get in 25 years. I expect that is indicative of how the overall distribution goes.

        • Ray in VT

          But I have been informed that that is different for some reason.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          And consider how much methane she is producing while getting those free grazing privileges.

          • Ray in VT

            Is she particularly flatulent, or do you mean her livestock? ;)

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Never been in room with her so I couldn’t tell you. But I’m wondering if she’d get an exemption on the carbon tax because her livestock grazed on Federal lands. Sort of a way to double dip.

          • Ray in VT

            She’s probably got a lawyer to work on that. As a member of Congress she could perhaps enlist the services of the GAO or the CRS. Triple dipping. Using public resources to figure out how to double dip!

    • AC

      my hubby took this shot while on a job during the shut down – look what it says in the corner!

    • Labropotes

      I love Jimmy Carter. I can’t grasp his vilification. But this is a little unfair. Christian values are things we interpret for — and perhaps impose on — ourselves. Would Carter or you approve of the government forcing Americans to take communion in addition forcing us to exercise financial charity? I’m guessing no.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Wow. That is an excellent caller. Not a wing nut.

  • NewtonWhale

    Caller “David” must be the only Ted Cruz fan in captivity who favors single payer government run healthcare.

    Methinks he’s putting us on.

    • TFRX

      I’m glad you mentioned that. I was wondering if I was hearing things.

      • brettearle

        Disqus

  • Markus6

    Unfortunately, there were no mechanisms other than the threat of a government shut down or default that could be used to reduce the 17 trillion in debt. And now, I think these have been taken off the table.

    From lobbyists to unions to farmers, to corporations, all want their dough from this huge amorphous blob called the government. And the only group that could possibly slow this juggernaut down, we the people, don’t understand the long term effect of all this increasing debt, are dependent on what government gives us, or just feel the other side is so evil that we’ll keep putting the same clowns into power.

    It’s a bit scary, but now that enough people have found they can vote themselves the money, it’s hard to see any fiscal conservative staying in a position of power. Til we become Greece, that is.

    • tbphkm33

      Lets point out that the Tea Baggers cost the economy some $24 billion due to their antics. Plus, the federal government still paid its employees, so its not like overall there was any savings in shutting down. In fact, the opposite has been true. Longterm faith in the United States has been shaken. Don’t fool yourself into thinking it will continue to be business as usual on issues such as the Chinese buying U.S. Treasury bonds. This shut down has rewritten the rules of engagement for many. The overall loser will be the United States.

      • Markus6

        That was not my point. I thought the shutdown was a bad idea, but recognize that there are few tools left to any politician to contain the debt. In contrast, there are tremendous incentives to simply spend money.

        • J__o__h__n

          It isn’t a legitimate tool.

  • MrStang

    The Republicans are not pragmatists and they cannot count unless its earmarks for their districts or tax cuts for the rich.

  • terry7

    Is there any chance that the Republican Party could split in two, the extremist Tea Party leaving or being pushed out to form a third party?

    • tbphkm33

      There is a very real chance that a centralist block will form within the Nopublican party, incorporating the majority in that party – then either retain the Republican name or form a new conservative party. The Tea Baggers are really a sign of internal struggle within the Nopublican party. It is a party that has been trying to redefine itself for 30 years now. The Tea Baggers biggest accomplishment has been to illustrate that the Nopublican party is increasingly an irrelevant party.

    • fun bobby

      no because the tea party is not a real party

  • MrStang

    Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?

    Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists. There’s nothing to be afraid of.

    -as long as we vote them OUT OUT OUT in 2014

    • Jeff

      Godwin’s law.

    • fun bobby

      nihilist is jefes word you will need to find your own so you don’t ruin the drinking game

      • MrStang

        Trying to tell me what I need? Typical Koch/Petersen Virus zombie authoritarian behaviour. Telling us the rules to their game they think we are supposed to be playing with them.

        The Koch/Petersen Republican Tea Zombie Virus is rampant!
        OUT OUT OUT in 2014

        • fun bobby

          its just that that word is already take by jefe.
          maybe virus zombie can be your drinking words? did you vote for the zombies last time?

      • jefe68

        Well now my suspicions are confirmed.
        You are petulant frat boy.

        • fun bobby

          that’s funny my university did not have any frats.

          • Ray in VT

            Glenn Beck U. hasn’t set them up yet? ;)

          • fun bobby

            that’s funny, the school I attended was so liberal they had no frats or football and we had an all lesbian dorm

          • Ray in VT

            Vasser? Just kidding, although they have a great campus there.

          • fun bobby

            the rest of the dorms were mixed

          • Ray in VT

            My undergrad campus mostly had single sex floors, except for the one dorm that had suites. They started a mixed sex floor my last year, where the bathrooms were shared. It was a bit shaky at first, but there weren’t any major issues.

    • jefe68

      Stop with the nazi memes already.

      • MrStang

        stop beating your wife

        • StilllHere

          He has, but she left him.

          • jefe68

            Troll.

        • jefe68

          Grow up. I’m not married.
          You sound like 10 year kid, a spoiled one at that.

    • jimino

      Apparently not enough Big Lebowski fans to get it.

    • jefe68

      I’ve seen that film, a lot. But this chap has been doing this nazi thing a few times. It’s absurd to go down that road.
      and does nothing to forward anyones argument.

      • MrStang

        ‘this nazi thing’…I don’t know what that is, but I do know its absurd to characterize my comments as ‘nazi thing’. It is inaccurate. I stand by my argument that there is a Koch/Petersen Republican Zombie Tea Virus rampant in this country, OUT OUT OUT with it in 2014!

  • rich4321

    About time these Rep/Tea party hooligans end this totally senseless nonsense!

    But who knows what the lunatics would do in Jan 2014?

    One way or the other, our country is damaged in the eyes of the world.

    This is a zero sum game

  • Coastghost

    The Affordable Care Tax Act may very well and quite easily kill itself with a swan drive straight into its death spiral. The rollout of Obamacare is an unmitigated DISASTER, and it’s still happening. Enrollments are not materializing, and levels of enrollment as of 1 January 2014 may show us clearly how many months ACTA will actually exist.
    A house of cards waiting to fall, many economists continue to murmur aloud: too unwieldy, too poorly assembled, too ambitious, too sour a solution for all the new taxes and rigmarole it imposes for compliance, too uncertain a prospect for employers and employees alike.

    • tbphkm33

      … and here we have a prime example of how the Tea Baggers continue to live in an alternate reality. Instead of complaining, how about telling your “leaders” to come up with policies that actually can solve the healthcare issue in this country. A nation that spends more on healthcare than any other nation, yet has the lowest participation in the healthcare sector.

  • Tom

    The Republicans will have to re-invent themselves to survive, a bit like the Labor party in Britain had to re-invent itself to become more like the Conservative party. The Republicans with need strong leaders, but in this case, I am glad to say, will have to re-brand themselves and become more like the Democrats in order to survive.
    from Tom in Vermont:

    • Enuff_of_this

      You’re still an idiot

    • Labropotes

      I agree. I also think our spending reality will move both parties in the other direction.

      It’s a drag that you get called undeserved names.

  • Ed

    you’ve missed the big picture. This will all now come back up early in the new year, immediately after everybody’s had to pay new bills to join Obamacare, and/or been hit with the possibility of a tax penalty because of Obamacare. How will the polls look then regarding the republican party that will claim it is trying to “save the American people” from this new tax?

  • Ray in VT

    The Senate has passed a budget.

    • Enuff_of_this

      Hand them all medals and certificates of appreciation. It only took them four years

      • Ray in VT

        Yet, contrary to claims from some quarters, they did pass one this year.

        • Enuff_of_this

          Purely ceremonial

          • Ray in VT

            Certainly as long as Republicans in the Senate block the creation of a committee to create a compromise and the lack of interest in doing the same in the House. It’s sort of like repeatedly voting to eliminate the funding for an organization that does not exist.

          • Enuff_of_this

            Either everything is negotiable or nothing is negotiable.

          • Ray in VT

            I can agree with that in principle, and that has pretty much been the stated position of my Representative. However, that does not change the fact the the GOP has, for months, blocked attempts to negotiate the differences between the House and Senate budgets.

        • StilllHere

          A CR is not a budget, it’s a copout.

          • Ray in VT

            Hmmm, I guess that that is why I was referring to the budget that they passed.

          • StilllHere

            Which was a CR, try to keep up.

          • Ray in VT

            I keep up just fine, thank you. They voted on it and it passed. Please tell me what action the House took on it.

          • Ray in VT

            Also, do you mean continuing resolution or concurrent resolution?

  • NewtonWhale

    After caller “James” is finished practicing constitutional law without a license he might want to take up brain surgery.

    • hennorama

      Please — we don’t need any more brain surgeons in politics.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Could you be envious of the brilliant Dr. Ben Carson?

        • TFRX

          Let me know when he becomes a passable politician.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I don’t know what a ‘passable politician’ means.

            I guess if you can go from community organizer to President anything is possible.

          • TFRX

            Yeah, Carson’s already failed that test. Amazing how few words he had to say to have the reputation of a brain surgeon devalued.

            But please keep propping up the corpse of his presidential aspirations.

          • pete18

            Why ponder over the corpse of a future politician when you have the reality of dead bodies and carnage brought on by the current occupier of the white house. No pondering needed to examine those failures.

        • hennorama

          Dr. Carson was certainly quite a talented neurosurgeon prior to his retirement.

          These days he seems more interested in publicity than anything else, and is in no way a subject of envy.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Maybe Dr. Carson is concerned for the country and now that he is retired he has time to speak out. I find your finding that he is simply a publicity hound without merit and somewhat obnoxious.

          • hennorama

            WftC — please note that I did not write that Dr. Carson “is simply a publicity hound.” Rather, I qualified my remarks in two ways, by writing both “These days” and “he seems.”

            Have there been any updates from his civil rights attorney of late?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            ‘It seems’ that you don’t like what Dr. Carson says ‘these days’. And that may color your opinion of Dr. Carson.

            You won’t be shocked to learn that I find Dr. Carson a breath of fresh air. Then again, I’m not into hero worship.

          • hennorama

            WftC — actually, I had Dr. Carson’s claim of IRS victimization in mind, and none of his other recent remarks or appearances.

            His words are generally entertaining but completely irrelevant.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Oh, I forgot about the IRS harassment he allegedly suffered. The court system is slow. I wouldn’t expect an update for quite some time.

          • Ray in VT

            “You know Obamacare is really I think the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery,” – Ben Carson.

            Is it any surprise that he has a job on Fox?

          • Ray in VT

            Someone must not like his words.

          • TFRX

            To be fair, the line to get Wingnut Welfare is very short for right-wing spouting African Americans.

            Maybe Carson just didn’t like the competition in the center or (what passes for) the left.

            Compare something Dems do to slavery, and that person pretty much gets to go to the front of it..

          • Ray in VT

            Well, outrageous statements can certainly draw ears and eyeballs.

          • hennorama

            Bingo!

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Sometimes what appears ‘outrageous’ at first glance turns out to be simply ‘thought provoking’.

          • Ray in VT

            Like suggesting that some super rich guy might not be paying any income taxes? So what do you think? Obamacare the worst thing since slavery?

          • Labropotes

            It’s hyperbole. But what the good doctor means to say is that he sees the ACA as a monumental loss of individual liberty.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Let’s see. The Democrat leader of the Senate is accusing the Presidential candidate of the opposing political party of being a criminal tax cheat and liar on the Senate floor and you are equating that with a private medical Dr. offering his opinion about the long term damage an invasive and prohibitively costly law will have on the country?

            I’ll also submit that Dr. Carson knows a bit more about slavery, medicine and the health care system than either you or I. Sure it was meant to get attention. As Labropotes said — hyperbole.

          • Ray in VT

            “Sometimes what appears ‘outrageous’ at first glance turns out to be simply ‘thought provoking’.”

            Also, I’m not aware of any particular expertise that Dr. Carson has regarding slavery. One would think that perhaps something like racial segregation, which existed long after slavery ended, was worse for the country than the ACA.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Of course racial segregation was horrible.
            You can find other terrible things in history too.

            This is all hypothetical because we don’t know the extent of economic damage and loss of personal freedoms due to the ACA.

            I still contend that it is thought provoking. I guess you could argue that some consider it so ‘outrageous’ that they miss his point entirely. I’m not sure if you fall in that camp.

          • Ray in VT

            I find such comparisons to be the sort of over the top eye roller that turns me off, and I thinks that to honestly compare and equate them displays a lack of historical perspective.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I respect your point.

            If you considered the ACA as a true threat to personal liberty and damaging to our economy I wonder if you would see it differently.

            And consider that this isn’t just an idle evaluation and comparison of two ills. Carson is attempting to correct the wrong BEFORE the damage is done.

          • Ray in VT

            If one believes that one particular American conservative party is a threat to our liberty and is damaging our country, then can one legitimately compare them to a certain bunch of German conservatives from 70-90 years ago?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            You can make any comparison you’d like but would it be valid?

            And if you are referring to the Tea Party, I am not away of any Tea Party group threatening liberty. In most cases they are promoting expansion of personal liberty.

          • Ray in VT

            Exactly. Like comparing a health care bill to slavery. I don’t think that it is at all valid.

            I am making no comparison, as I don’t like it when people play the Nazi card. The argument, though, would go something like social conservatives, ties up the wazoo to industry interests, throw in a dash of racism. I don’t need anyone to fight for me to have the liberty to be free of environmental regulations. Also, there seems to be an interesting faction in the Tea Party that appears quite fine restricting the ability of people to marry, for instance. How does opposing gay marriage square with favoring personal liberty?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            There are many Tea Party groups. I’m not familiar with any that has opposing gay marriage as part of their platform. The common theme of the platform is about liberty, fiscal responsibility and limiting the size and scope of government.

            Maybe there are some out there.

          • Ray in VT

            That is certainly true. I don’t think that it is quite proper to make blanket statements regarding all Tea Party groups, although there are some general statements that can be made regarding the demographic makeup of the groups. I was basically referring to some of the most highly visible members of the Tea Party Caucus, whom you may or may not consider to be in line with the movement as a whole. Although surveys seem to indicate a general opposition to gay marriage within the movement.

          • Ray in VT

            This is just out. There’s some interesting bits in there:

            http://www.people-press.org/2013/10/16/tea-partys-image-turns-more-negative/

            For instance, as I read it, according to their surveys, 54% of non Tea Party Republicans oppose same sex marriage, while that number is 69% (rather humorously) for those who describe themselves as being Tea Party members/affiliated/aligned (however they term it).

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT — Dr. Ben Carson is a very intelligent person who is a great example of the smart amateur.

            However, we already have more than enough amateur politicians, in Congress and elsewhere.

            That of course makes him a perfect fit for the newsfotainment industry.

          • StilllHere

            Wow, the whole demonizing-thing lasted what 5 minutes?

          • hennorama

            StilllHere — thank you for your response.

            Let’s examine the “demonization” of Dr. Carson, shall we?:

            “Dr. Carson was certainly quite a talented neurosurgeon”
            “His words are generally entertaining”
            “Dr. Ben Carson is a very intelligent person”
            “[he] is a great example of the smart amateur.”

            We should all be “demonized” in such a fashion, wouldn’t you agree?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            “The Amateur”

            There is a prominent politician that came on the scene in recent years and is referred to as ‘the amateur’. I just can’t remember his name……

            http://www.amazon.com/dp/1621570908

          • hennorama

            WftC — Thank you for your response.

            For some reason, my response is being “moderated.” As an experiment, I’ve bracketed what may be the topic of the “moderation” in this attempted reply. Perhaps the third try will be the charm.

            Nope. Let’s try again, leaving the bracket empty. The bracket contained the nickname of Richard Morris. This is attempt #4:

            To put it politely, the author Edward Klein lacks credibility. Being a rational person, I have not read his books about President Obama and Secretary Clinton, and leave the reviews to the professionals. An example:

            ” ‘The Amateur’ by Edward Klein is a book about an inept, arrogant ideologue who maintains an absurdly high opinion of his own talents even as he blatantly fails to achieve his goals. Oh, and President Obama is in this book too.” – Janet Maslin

            See:
            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/books/edward-kleins-invective-laden-obama-book.html?_r=0

            “I have read the Hillary book by Ed Klein, which has been heavily dumped on by conservatives, and understandably. In terms of political impact it is not a takedown but a buildup. [nickname for "Richard”] Morris says its sensational charges will only “embolden” her. They will certainly tend to inoculate her against future and legitimate criticism and revelations. The book is poorly written, poorly thought, poorly sourced and full of the kind of loaded language that is appropriate to a polemic but not an investigative work.” – Peggy Noonan

            See:
            http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122487008765067079.html

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            The most interesting tidbit from your post is that Mr. Morris’s first name causes ‘moderation’. The thought police at work again.

            I never read the book. It was a throw away post in a weak attempt at humor.

            However, there might be something in labeling the current president’s governance skills as amateur. He is certainly a master campaigner but I find him lacking in leadership skills. Oh well, it was only 8 years of our lives.

          • hennorama

            WftC — yes, we can add that nickname to the list.

            I understand your views about President Obama, and respect them. And we still have a bit over 1190 days left in President Obama’s second term. It’ll be over in a flash.

            See:
            http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?p0=263&iso=20170120T00&msg=Time%20left%20until%20Obama%20leaves%20office

            BTW, humor is often quite difficult “in here,” but don’t let that discourage you. (see above)

          • StilllHere

            Is that some sort of commentary on African Americans? Why are you so racist? You can’t begin to understand the African American experience in America and you should not even attempt to do so.

          • TFRX

            TIme for you to “get a new hat”, Bullwinkle.

            Your trick never works.

          • Ray in VT

            Thanks for your continuing daily dose of idiocy. Perhaps the good doctor would sing a different tune if he had been subjected to the sort of treatment that Congressman Lewis faced back in the day. It might dissuade him from making such ridiculous statements.

          • StilllHere

            Wow, you keep digging yourself in a bigger racist hole. Very sad. I for one see value in both their struggles. Hopefully, upon reflection, you will see the error of your racist tendencies.

          • Ray in VT

            Thanks again for providing insight into the mind of the lunatic fringe that is Teabaggerdom.

          • brettearle

            Ray, see my comment above.

          • brettearle

            Who you think you are, calling Ray in Vt, racist?

            He has one of the most flexible and insightful minds in the “On-Point” forum.

            Isn’t it so terribly, terribly fashionable these days–following the credo of Glenn Pathetic Beck politics–to accuse the Left of the very accusations that the Left levels against the Right?

            As if this kind of blind-sided attack-Irony is supposed to obfuscate the Racism that is much, much, much, much, much more predominate with the Right Wing of this country.

            Where the Hell do you get off calling anyone a Racist in this Forum?

            Answer the friggin’ question or remain a COWARD….

          • Ray in VT

            Thank you for your kind words, Brett. I appreciate it.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Of course Ray is no racist.

            However, all black conservatives are attacked by the media in way that white conservatives are not. The only logical conclusion is they don’t fit the mold. Perhaps they are considered a threat to the monolithic African American voting block.

          • HonestDebate1

            Such tactics! Your comment drips with innuendo, why not just say it? Fox is a racist network that hires racists to garner an audience of racists.

            If you had balls you would comment on Carson’s most excellent premise but instead all you have is hate.

          • Ray in VT

            I know. Repeating what a guy said. As I have indicated elsewhere, I consider the premise to be the sort of idiotic hyperbole that shows a lack of historical perspective. It’s no wonder you think that it is “most excellent”.

          • brettearle

            You wonder what’s driving his psyche, underneath it, all.

            I have always suspected that there is, literally, some psychological outrage, that is deep-rooted, with regard to his MO.

            I don’t know what the genesis of his politics have been…a kind of reverse Ariana Huffington, perhaps?

          • hennorama

            brettearle — TY for your response.

            Actually, I haven’t really given any thought to “what’s driving [Dr. Carson's] psyche” and simply have observed his actions.

            One could put him down as a retiree who found his voice, and who has been encouraged by the feedback he’s gotten. He certainly is both intelligent and entertaining, but not always in a good way.

            No doubt his bio is easily accessible online.

            As I vaguely recall, Dr. Carson overcame significant disadvantages as well as a bit of a violent streak to become very successful. Something about a hammer and some dispute with his mother over his wardrobe, but I don’t recall much else.

            At the time, I compared him to another prominent neurosurgeon, Dr. Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa.

            Unlike Dr. Carson, Dr. Quiñones-Hinojosa seems to keep his views on religion and evolution and politics, and other areas in which he has neither expertise nor personal experience, completely to himself.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • brettearle

            Thanks, Henn……

            Carson’s an intriguing character.

            [By the way, I got the Avignon-New Mexico mixed metaphor]

            I ask again….what did one Hen(n), say to the other Hen(n), after the second Mother Hen asked the first Mother Hen to lay her eggs, for her–and the first mother Hen came up empty, two times, in a row?

          • hennorama

            brettearle — TYFYR, and I’m glad you understood the references. Le Pont d’Avignon and Truth or Consequences, NM are FAR different places, but I have been to both.

            As to your riddle, my prior answer stands until the truth is revealed.

            Speaking of Carson … I can personally attest that the moderation algorithm allows the word “cock,” but not the nickname for “Richard.”

            That’s some weird wild stuff.

          • brettearle

            His majesty, Brett Earle, grants Henn an Indulgence: to wit, a hint:

            First word in the answer is, “Fool” [not as in "King Lear"].

            [I know....you don't like quizzes.]

            By the way, do you know of the short-lived TV series, from Canada–aired on Sundance–entitled, “Slings & Arrows”?

            It’s about a dysfunctional Shakespearean Theatre Festival in repertory, placed in Toronto, or thereabouts.

            Could be the best satire, ever on TV–and NYT, SF Examiner, and one of the Chicago broadsheets either reasonably agree or, more so, agree. [Albeit some of it is adolescent, even pedestrian.]

            It was aired, on or about 2008.

            Despite its flaws, I’d be shocked if it didn’t suit your tastes. Start with Season 2.

            That’s an odor, I mean….order…

            Remember, First Word is, “Fool”…..

          • hennorama

            brettearle — apologies for the delay. My thought train has been temporarily derailed with moon howling and Dodger goose eggs.

            Fool! If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There’s no point in being a damn fool about it. – W.C. Fields

            Fool! I try. I fail. I try again. I fail better. – Samuel Beckett

            Fool! Quit your squawking. The rooster may crow but the hen delivers the goods. Eventually.

            ============

            Mis(ter)cellany:

            https://soundcloud.com/brett-earle/sets

        • NewtonWhale

          Not when it comes to his grasp of public policy.

          If you were on trial for your life I doubt you would prefer Dr. Carson as your lawyer over Alan Dershowitz, Ted Olsen or David Boies. And yet some people think a person who has been successful as an exterminator (Tom Delay) beauty queen (Sarah Palin) or large animal veterinarian (Ted Yoho) is an expert on public affairs.

          Whenever you are tempted to take success in one field as proof of fitness for public office, remember that Henry Ford published antisemitic screeds and Charles Lindbergh was a fan of Hitler.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Interesting straw man response.

            And yet some people think a person who as been successful as a Harvard Law review editor (Barack Obama), boxer (Harry Reid)…….

            My first exposure to Dr. Carson’s public policy ideas were when he spoke truth to power at the prayer breakfast. You are entitled to your opinion but I found it refreshing.

          • NewtonWhale

            Were you refreshed when he said this:

            “Marriage is between a man and a woman. No group, be they gays, be they NAMBLA [North American Man/Boy Love Association], be they people who believe in bestiality, it doesn’t matter what they are. They don’t get to change the definition.”

            or this:

            “People are afraid to say Merry Christmas at Christmas time. Doesn’t matter whether the person you’re talking to is Jewish”

            or this:

            “I have to tell you that Obamacare is, really, I think, the worst thing that’s happened to this nation since slavery. It was never about healthcare, it was about control.”

            In 1865, American slavery ended with the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse and the passage of the 13th Amendment.

            Since that time, these things have happened:

            In 1871, fire destroyed the city of Chicago.

            In 1896, the Supreme Court legalized segregation.

            In 1906, an earthquake leveled the city of San Francisco.

            In 1929, the stock market crashed, plunging the nation into the Great Depression.

            In 1941, more than 2,400 Americans died in a sneak attack upon Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

            In 1963, the president of the United States was murdered in Dallas.

            In 1974, a president resigned in scandal and disgrace.

            In 2001, 3,000 people died in a terrorist attack.

            In 2005, a hurricane swamped the Gulf Coast.

            In 2008, corporate greed brought the nation to the brink of economic collapse.

            http://azstarnet.com/ap/commentary/dr-ben-carson-sinks-to-a-new-low/article_3431d4c7-d8e3-5ddf-93b1-5ed6f0344fce.html

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Gee, are you afraid to say Merry Christmas?

            And no, I don’t agree with Dr. Carson on everything. And I also don’t find your list as a compelling counter to the point he was making. But maybe that is because you don’t see the ACA as a threat to personal liberty and to the economic health of our country.

  • TFRX

    Is Ball saying “Obama is getting blamed, rightly or wrongly for not getting intractable Republicans-who set their cap to destroy him from Election Day 2008-to work with him”?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Mr. “I will not negotiate” is talking nice now. Wow.

  • William

    We are a high entitlement and low tax nation and that is not going to change. Entitlement reform is off the table so why bring it up?

    • jimino

      Only in our political system can a force like the Tea Party, whose members vehemently oppose reducing THEIR Social Security and Medicare benefits, provide political support for elected officials who’s goal is precisely to do that.

      Is that what the Greeks would call a “tragedy”?

      • William

        Of course, did they have a choice about social security and medicare? Then when someone comes along and says “you did not earn that”, and gives it to people that sneak across the border, yes, they have the right to say “earn your own rewards”….

        • jimino

          I would love to respond but I have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • lobstahbisque

          “Medical” marijuana no doubt.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      High entitlement for sure. Mediocrities like Mitt and W are entitled to live like medieval dukes simply b/c of their fortunate choice of parents. Let’s have real “entitlement reform” by massively increasing taxes on these entitled freeloaders.

      • William

        Obama has said he wants entitlement reform but did nothing. “W” at least tried to address Social Security reform and got slammed. So it’s a dead issue. Put the 5 million people back on the tax rolls that “W” took off is a good first start. Get Google, Apple, GE and all the other freeloaders to pay up at least 20 percent.

        • nj_v2

          Correction:

          [[ "W" at least tried to address privatize Social Security reform and got slammed. ]]

  • Coastghost

    And as the manifest failures of the Obamacare rollout continue apace, we can wonder aloud how much longer Kathleen Sibelius will manage the grand unveiling.

    • AC

      actually i’m kind of pissed and hoping its not too late to change, it cost me $3k less for an HMO on the exchanges with better service than i’m contracted for currently. what the heck!

    • TomK_in_Boston

      What failures?

      • Coastghost

        Refer to the Megan McArdle Bloomberg piece linked below. Political calculations and miscalculations delayed the issuance of rules and regulations needed for implementation. Because ACTA remains a work of Democratic Party resolve, it continues not to enjoy bipartisan political appeal, and turning the page today from yesterday’s stale headlines shows that Americans are still not all or even mostly enamored of the “solution” that the Democrats have offered.
        Watch Obamacare die from numerous self-inflicted wounds.

        • TFRX

          That crackpot McMegan is inflicting her ignorance somewhere besides The Atlantic now?

          Thanks for the warning.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Classic. When you have no ammo to attack the message — attack the messenger. Read that in Rules for Radicals or did you come up with it on your own?

          • TFRX

            Megan McArdle is the chief proponent of ArgleBargle for a reason. She’s like the opposite of the Pole Star; her compass is basically pointing South.

            Dismissing anything she writes is simply easy to do. If it’s not made up bullsquat, someone else will say it. And linking to her is a symptom of bad sourcing.

          • Coastghost

            Tell it to Bloomberg.

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Get a grip. Despite all the spin, it’s Romneycare and the “unconstitutional” individual mandate is from Heritage. Romneycare works fine in MA, will work fine in USA. Sky is not falling, costa chicken little.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Romneycare is simply an annoyance in MA because it is far less invasive than Obamacare (60 pages vs. 2700 + 10,000s pages of regs). It only affected 4% of MA residents.

            Now MA small businesses are suing the Feds because of Obamacare — they were OK with Romneycare. False equivalence.

          • StilllHere

            You expected something different from him?

          • TFRX

            Going to the mat for McArdle? Waste your reputation for the likes of her intellect (sic)?

            Hey, I can’t stop you.

          • StilllHere

            Gotcha, the only trick that works is your “Republicans-are-racist” rant.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          It’s a work of the Heritage Foundation, Gingrich, Romney, Big Pharma and Big Insurance. You really have to be a fool to call it socialism or “gvt takeover”. That’s why us libs don’t love it, we wanted single payer.

          I’m afraid you will be disappointed. Of course you’ll parrot every problem, like you do when there’s a cold day in Aug, but as people find they can get ins for a lot less than they ever dreamed the ACA will become popular and accepted. Just as the anti-gvt TeaTards love their SS and Medicare, they will come to love the ACA too, tho it won’t stop their whining abt the gub’mint, LOL.

  • Art Toegemann

    This shutdown was a Republican/Tea Party abuse of process. The rules change of October 1 should erase any doubt of that; repeal that rule.
    By thanking John Boehner for ending this, Nancy Pelosi exhibited Stockholm symptom.
    I do feel played. Congress manipulated the stock market again.

  • MrStang

    We should be increasing Social Security. The Cayman Island /Swiss Plutocrats like Michelle Bachman and Romney/Koch/Petersen need to leave the old people alone and Obama should not enable this un-American behaviour.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Right! That would be real “entitlement reform”. Raise the COLA and raise the CAP.

    • William

      You forgot Google, Ge, Apple…they brag about not paying taxes….

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Right. Corps need to start paying.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Repatriate the foreign profits. Let’s give ‘em a deal.

          • fun bobby

            its actually a terrible idea. we need to start taxing or banning transfer pricing

  • Cindy C Barnard

    What comes next? I hope a suit against gerrymandering and an independent board assigned to draw our districts after each census.

    Election campaign reform so that small (and getting smaller) groups can’t simply buy an overwhelming amount of the campaign advertising/promotions.

    • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

      The machinery of the Rule of Law is too weak to correct the inherent problems baked into the DNA of the Rule of Law.

      The corruptibility of the Rule of Law is correctable, but the solution requires human society to evolve out of the Rule of Law and into a new paradigm of functional governance models, grounded in 20th Century concepts in the design of high-functioning regulatory mechanisms.

  • lexpublius

    The bible says the politicians are one of the problems; AND, the USA is right where she is supposed to be in prophecy according to a scientist and an attorney’s book, A Still Small Voice by Fritz and Slaughter. They analyzed the Scriptural predictions and all have come true 100%. They also prove the global roles of China, North Korea, Iran, and Iraq using Dept. of State top secret documents and historical facts; and, secret international role of the Vatican in league with the USA. http://www.amazon.com/Still-Small-Voice-Vatican-Prophecy/dp/0978947002/

    • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

      Using 20th Century scientific and mathematical models, it’s trivial to predict that the Rule of Law (as devised, invented, and introduced some 4000 years ago) is inherently erratic, dysfunctional, and chaotic.

      That prediction dates back some 3800 years, where it can be found buried in somewhat arcane language in scriptures and other literature of the ancient era.

      Using modern analysis from Chaos Theory, Game Theory, and Cybernetic Systems Theory, it’s now a homework exercise to demonstrate precisely how and why the Rule of Law continues to break down with these recurring episodes of lunatic political drama.

    • J__o__h__n

      It got the past wrong so I don’t expect it to predict the future.

    • fun bobby

      the tree of life is now producing 12 crops a year, now lets begin the healing of the nations!

  • Agnostic58

    Nothing was resolved except not driving over the cliff this time. There is nothing reassuring about any of what just occurred including any lessons learned – if there had been anything learned, the president would have kept his mouth shut and signed the compromise, said good night and ended it there. His holier than thouness plays well to his choir but drives his opponents wacko and look where that’s getting us.

    • StilllHere

      I don’t want to miss his press conference. I suspect he’ll put his boot on the throat of the opposition. He’s reasonable like that.

      • jimino

        I hope he is polite in his comments, then follows up with brutally ruthless tactics to totally subdue this sect that is an existential threat to our country and its place in the world.

        But since he’s the third most right-wing president in modern times, I expect we will get the opposite: tough words and slow capitulation.

    • TFRX

      Driving one’s political opponents crazy? That’s a short trip for the right’s wingnuts.

      So, a Dem prez being too nice to his opposition energized them for some four years, while getting our centrist pundits to say “Obama should compromise more”. But now that he’s won, he shouldn’t “drive his opponents wacko”?

      I don’t remember the narrative of “(Reagan) (Bush II) (etc) should be magnanimous in victory”. Sounds like the Right’s the side with the problem.

      • Agnostic58

        He drives more than his opponents crazy. Just ask Cornell West.

  • jefe68

    Rachel Maddow:
    “Through this process, Republicans said they would shut down the government, or, once it was shut down, they would refuse to open the government unless they got each one of these things. Of all of these things that they demanded, they got none of them! None…these have been sixteen bad days for the country and the economy.”

    • fun bobby

      so maddow would have felt better if they had gotten some of the things they wanted?

      • StilllHere

        Whatcha gonna do when the other side won’t negotiate? #partyofno

  • MrStang

    CIA Superior: What did we learn, Palmer?

    CIA Officer: I don’t know, sir.

    CIA Superior: I don’t f*****’ know either. I guess we learned not to do it again.

    CIA Officer: Yes, sir.

    CIA Superior: I’m f***** if I know what we did.

    CIA Officer: Yes, sir, it’s, uh, hard to say

  • lobstahbisque

    I don’t know but I wonder if the above picture showing Cruz being led by a man in uniform might be a portent of things to come.

    • StilllHere

      Is that some sort of commentary on Hispanics? Why are you such a racist?

      • TFRX

        Give it up, you useless troll.

      • lobstahbisque

        I forgive you SH you’ve had a rough night.

        • StilllHere

          I don’t want your forgiveness. I’d prefer you to spend some time looking inside yourself and seeing you for who you really are. Only then can you begin to address your inherent racism.

          • lobstahbisque

            Sorry for your loss.

        • Ray in VT

          Is SH shorthand for s**t head?

          • northeaster17

            Ha!

      • jimino

        Canadians are a separate race? I never knew.

        • Ray in VT

          That’s why when they talk the top part of their heads totally separate from the rest of their bodies.

      • Inthefloodzone

        Hispanics are not a race. They are actually caucasian, as are Afghans and Russians. And how is it that a Canadian (apparently) can serve in Congress but a Canadian could not become president? What happened to the birthers on that one??
        But what sets the Cruzes and the Rubios apart is that they are apparently flaming super-patriots of the Cuban stamp, still pissed that Castro won Cuba away from the casinos and brothels.

    • Inthefloodzone

      My thought exactly. The shot of Cruz in the elevator made me think of a criminal in a lineup, too.

      • lobstahbisque

        Yes– an unscrupulous face……. and as you can see, the trolls have been having a rough day. Ordinarily one would feel bad for them, but today they are so ugly and full of bile, like human boils… etc.

  • Agnostic58

    He did the right thing standing up to the Tea Party. And he won. But the lesson will only harden the wackos next time if he gloats or pontificates or tells them he won. He needs to shut up and act as if nothing of the sort had just happened and negotiate a budget. The Republicans are smart enough to know what their wacko element is doing to them. The right is about to go to war with themselves.

  • Adrian_from_RI

    I knew it. I knew it. Money *does* grow on trees. We can have our cake and eat it too. The money grows in abundance on trees in the White House backyard so cleverly tended to by our Savior. Hallelujah!
    The money harvest is so abundant because the trees are fertilized by the night soil democratically collected at the United States Capitol. So far we have harvested seventeen trillion and there is more, much more where that came from. Can you believe it?

    • lobstahbisque

      Call the paramedics

    • fun bobby

      that must be why they are not bothering to harvest the whitehouse vegetable garden during the shutdown

  • Mattyster

    To say that Democrats got everything they want is not exactly true. Don’t forget that this budget is at the Republican level that the Democrats didn’t want but compromised on before the shutdown. Republicans just wouldn’t take ‘yes’ for an answer.

  • tbphkm33

    So, we tend to think of gerrymandered seats as being 100% safe seats – which they are in terms of the two political parties. Yet, if we look at the Tea Bagger seats that are gerrymandered to the Nopublicans, they are in fact not safe, at least not any longer.

    The antics of the Tea Baggers have not only alienated the liberals and the majority, they have in fact alienated a great number of Nopublicans. Centralist conservatives who are realizing they did not sign up for the fringe fanaticism of the Tea Baggers.

    The Tea Baggers in the House are in fact not safe. In 2014, moderate conservatives and liberals have everything to gain by supporting main stream Republican candidates to stand against the Tea Baggers in the primary elections. The tide will turn because even in these gerrymandered districts, the Tea Baggers only represent a fringe minority. Even in these “safe” districts, the core support for the Tea Baggers are all under 35%.

    This is the “helping” hand the majority should extend to the moderate Nopublicans. Help them clean up their own house and elect Representatives that are capable of doing the The People’s business.

    • Alex

      I agree. And they should leave the Tea Baggers out of party for the sake of the country.

      • StilllHere

        Maybe we could set up camps for these desirables and take away their voting privileges.

        • Ray in VT

          Perhaps like the camps that this GOP official wants to send “trannies” to?

          http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/10/16/gop-politician-wants-concentration-camps-trans-people/

          • StilllHere

            I’m not thinking daycamps like he seems to be, I’m talking worker camps where we tax their wages up the whazu!

          • Ray in VT

            I wouldn’t say that he appears to be either. Although, such as he suggests, perhaps some might consider that mental institutions would be more appropriate than concentration camps.

          • StilllHere

            I figured it was more like conversion camps but only guessing.

          • jimino

            If they don’t like such high taxation then maybe they should get their income in capital gains like their leaders do.

          • fun bobby

            he is not an official of any sort but someone inform Maury Povich posthaste!

          • Ray in VT

            Allow me to amend: Former South Carolina GOP Executive Director. I’m sure that his former organization is totally fine with the transgender community, totally supporting protecting them from discrimination.

          • fun bobby

            it sounds like this guy fell for the old Lola routine and got burnt. you have to feel a little bad for him

          • Ray in VT

            Maybe. I prefer Weird Al’s version, though.

          • fun bobby

            anyone who is that bent out of shape definitely got burnt. I think it was on this forum where the topic came up and one guy was very anti transgendered people. it turned out he got burned.

          • Ray in VT

            Could be. I’ve also seen some psych research that indicates that a good number of people with strong anti-gay positions aren’t so sure which side of the bread they are buttered on.

            I remember that when I used to work in a book store this couple would come in, and we were all pretty sure that the lady either wasn’t or didn’t start out that way.

          • fun bobby

            transgendered and gay are different things. transgendered people even face discrimination from members of the gay community.

    • tbphkm33

      I looked it up, seems that polls indicate 18% of the U.S. population identifies themselves as Tea Baggers. Yet, when the questions involve actual policies, that number drops to around 8%.

      Seems like a higher number of people liked the propaganda, but decided to cut ties when they realized what the Tea Baggers are really about.

      • Inthefloodzone

        That usually happens. Americans love their ideals until they get hit in the wallet or the stomach. But the same phenomenon works in reverse for the Affordable Care Act. After sniffing around it suspiciously, once it kicks in (as some provisions already have, and I don’t hear anyone whining about them) I’m guessing the majority of Americans will be darn glad to get it. As for the cost? Like getting a refund bigger than you ever dreamed of, to have those staggering costs of medical treatment covered. I’m on Medicare, I know.

    • Inthefloodzone

      Thank you! One reassuring thing out of all of this, at least.

  • lobstahbisque

    Forget lemons for lemonade…

    • Labropotes

      …save ‘em for the lobstah!

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Gub’mint hatin’ TeaTard geezers will discover they like ACA just like SS and Mcare. Then when someone like cruzie attacks ACA they’ll say “Gub’mint get yer hands offa my Obamacare” ROTFL

    • Ray in VT

      A part of me thinks that opponents of the ACA are far more worried that it will succeed than that it will fail.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Bingo! I’ve seen many “OMG I had no idea I could get ins so cheaply!”

        • fun bobby

          where? there were a lot of old people saying “OMG”?

  • hennorama
  • TomK_in_Boston

    Part of our prob is that while the internet does spread information, it also allows creation of low-information bubbles where the ignorant can stroke each other abt how CO2 doesn’t warm the planet, earth is 6000 yrs old, “creation science” is jsut as good as Darwin, the Big Bad Mr deficit will come and get us if we don’t cut SS and Mcare, gub’mint spending is out of control, ad nauseum. So a substantial group of voters are reinforced in ignorance and get to screw up the whole USA.

    • Ray in VT

      While I was waiting for my oil change yesterday I was talking to an older guy there. We talked about how good Google is, but I expressed the position that given how Google learns what you look it, and then how it adjusts the search results to show you what it thinks that you might like, that it can lead to a narrowing of the results that you get.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Great observation. BTW I wish they had asked Google to design the web interface for ACA instead of these stupid beltway bandit cos with horrible track records.

        • fun bobby

          I thought they gave the contract to a big campaign financier

    • fun bobby

      those are almost as bad as the ones where people convince each other raising the minimum wage is a good idea

  • marygrav

    The Republican Party will have to squeeze the T-Party out like the pus that it is. The T-Party was sent to Washington to destroy the Federal Government and in the process it will destroy the Republican Party.

    Like any other political psychopaths and anarchists, they are willing to bring down the government at the bidding of their masters. The are a 5th column that has enter the Republican Party so that conservatism has became a form of fascism using Mafia tactics of intimidation.

    John Boehner has lost all credibility as an American willing to man up. He lives in fear; therefore he is a coward and cowards always fold in a crisis. By trying to cover his own a… he lost all respect.

    Ted Cruz is a fool. And anyone who cheers him on is one also.

    • William

      Is the Republican Party much different than the Democratic Party. Both love big budgets, power, process, talk down to the American people like they are country hicks. At the end of the day, were you surprised a government run 600 million dollar web site failed? Then here comes the TP and rains on the GOP and Democrats parade. They have a good thing going don’t you know. 3.2 trillion dollar plus budgets and growing. Big talk about “working on the debt, entitlement reform etc…etc….” but nothing is accomplished except to establish a “Blue Ribbon Panel of experts”…etc..etc…How did that “jobs czar and his business advisors” work out for us? ….

      So sure, slam the TP, but they got the sequester passed and that is something both parties hate.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Uh oh. TomK, are you there?

    Yale finds Tea Party members more versed on science.
    Exposes not only the academic bubble but media bias propaganda from sources like CNN, NYTimes, HuffPO, etc.

    “Kahan wrote that not only did the findings surprise him, they embarrassed him.

    “I’ve got to confess, though, I found this result surprising. As I
    pushed the button to run the analysis on my computer, I fully expected I’d be shown a modest negative correlation between identifying with the Tea Party and science comprehension,” Kahan wrote.

    “But then again, I don’t know a single person who identifies with theTea Party,” he continued. “All my impressions come from watching cable tv — & I don’t watch Fox News very often — and reading the ‘paper’ (New York Times daily, plus a variety of politics-focused internet sites like Huffington Post & Politico). I’m a little embarrassed, but mainly I’m just glad that I no longer hold this particular mistaken view.””

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/tea-party-science-98488.html?hp=r3

    • hennorama

      WftC — I suspect that Professor Kahan would quibble with your words “Tea Party member[s] more versed on science…”

      He wrote that he “decided it would be sort of interesting to see what the relationship was between a “science comprehension” scale I’ve been developing and political outlooks.”

      Here’s his final sentence:

      ” These effects are trivially small, & if I sample 2000+ people it’s pretty likely any discrepancy I see will be “statistically significant”–which has precious little to do with “practically significant.”

      Quoting further from Professor Kahan’s blog, all of which comes before the quotes in the politico.com article:

      “In this dataset, I found that there is a small correlation (r = -0.05, p = 0.03) between the science comprehension measure and a left-right political outlook measure, Conservrepub, which aggregates liberal-conservative ideology and party self-identification. The sign of the correlation indicates that science comprehension decreases as political outlooks move in the rightward direction–i.e., the more “liberal” and “Democrat,” the more science comprehending.”

      And

      “It turns out that there is about as strong a correlation between scores on the science comprehension scale and identifying with the Tea Party as there is between scores on the science comprehension scale and Conservrepub.

      “Except that it has the opposite sign: that is, identifying with the Tea Party correlates positively (r = 0.05, p = 0.05) with scores on the science comprehension measure:

      And

      “Again, the relationship is trivially small, and can’t possibly be contributing in any way to the ferocious conflicts over decision-relevant science that we are experiencing.”

      Repeating: “…the relationship is trivially small…” and “These effects are trivially small…”

      See:
      http://www.culturalcognition.net/blog/2013/10/15/some-data-on-education-religiosity-ideology-and-science-comp.html

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Again, you miss the point.

        The good Professor’s self reflection on his own biases and sources of information is both refreshing and honest. He could have spiked the study and no one would have known.

        • hennorama

          WftC — you’re correct; I missed that point.

          Perhaps that’s because it seems completely absent from both your post and the politico.com article. Regardless, if that was your point, then I definitely concede having missed it until just now, when you communicated it.

          Sorry for my misunderstanding.

    • lobstahbisque

      Not another one……

  • http://freeourfreemarkets.org/ Steve Banicki

    The big lesson is for every action there is a reaction and the reaction of the rest of the world is a lowering of the stature of the United States.

    If you were living in or overseeing an emerging country like Brazil, Mexico, Kenya or South Africa how comfortable would you be to have your nation solely rely on your affiliation with the United States for your future?

    From afar you see the U.S. having a difficult time taking care of its own business. You see a group of politicians threatening to shut down their government in order to prevent the enactment of a healthcare program that was passed according to law and a Supreme Court ruling it is constitutional. These politicians are willing to risk the credibility of their government in the eyes of the world for the sake of remaining in good standing with a splinter group called the Tea Party.

    You see a congress and senate not willing to support a president who wants to punish Syria for using a weapon of mass destruction as defined by the United States and the United Nations. You also see other leading nations of the world not willing to protect civilians from chemical weapons.

    You see the infrastructure of the largest economy of the world crumbling while there is a significant labor pool begging for work. You further notice that relative education levels of its citizenry is slipping when compared to other nations…. http://lstrn.us/1ap2Gev

    • tbphkm33

      Well said.

    • William

      The law was passed but the President changed it which discriminates against millions of people. Yes, the rest of the world looks at us and wonders “who is this guy? The President gives big business an exemption and tells the working man “pay up, shut up”, The President uses the language of Al Capone when talking about his political opponents. This is the leader of the free world? “Bomb throwers, hostage takers, terrorists, etc….What is there to respect?

      • Zenplatypus

        Don’t forget: He’s a pretty black man, and he gives lovely speeches… Of course, his qualifications for office begin and end there, but these are special qualities to be sure.

        • tbphkm33

          Ah, another racist – points out that the President is partly of African decent. Then ignores that President Obama served in Congress, has a long history of community organizing and is a graduate of Harvard Law School.

          hmm, speak up when your own qualifications get anywhere close to that of President Obama’s.

          Educate yourself – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

          • Zenplatypus

            Little Baracky served all of two years in the Senate before campaigning to be POTUS. By the way, I think it’s absolutely precious that you believe community organizing to be in any way significant.

            As for the tired charge of racism, I’m simply echoing the sentiments expressed by Geraldine Ferraro. I suppose she was a “racist” also.

            The undeniable fact is the current occupant of the White House is the least qualified chief executive in well over a hundred years. I’m reminded of a recent New York Times op-ed by Drew Westen — a pro-Obama essay as it happens — that unwittingly captured the essence of the man. Here’s the salient passage: “Those of us who were bewitched by his eloquence on the campaign trail chose to ignore some disquieting aspects of his biography: that he had accomplished very little before he ran for president, having never run a business or a state; that he had a singularly unremarkable career as a law professor, publishing nothing in 12 years at the University of Chicago other than an autobiography; and that, before joining the United States Senate, he had voted “present” (instead of “yea” or “nay”) 130 times, sometimes dodging difficult issues.”

            It should be noted that he did manage to vote against raising the debt ceiling in 2006. I suppose in your addled mind that makes him something of a proto-”Tea Bagger.”

            Love your new photo, incidentally. You look like such a deep thinker…

          • tbphkm33

            Oh, the racist probably thinks GW Bush was a great President.

            Find that rock you crawled out from under and see if you can’t fit back underneath it.

          • Zenplatypus

            As I’m sure you’ve heard countless times from your special-needs teachers over the years: There, there now; it’ll be OK.

            Say, when can we expect another nifty image? Perhaps the next one should depict you with head in hands, your vast intellect clearly grappling with the great issues of the day.

            Can’t wait!

          • jefe68

            Troll.

          • fun bobby

            Obama: great president or the greatest president?

          • Bruce94

            Oh please! Enough with the Obama bashing. True, his resume was a bit thin, but the last time we had an occupant of the White House who boasted that his executive experience and business skills uniquely qualified him for Oval Office, it was an unmitigated disaster and we wound up with the worst President for the economy since Herbert Hoover. Yes, please tell us how it benefited our economy, stature in the world and civil liberties at home to have W., an ex-Gov. with loads of business experience.

            True, Obama wasn’t born on third base, a child of privilege, given every advantage in life as W. was and the last two GOP Presidential candidates were. Obama’s was an authentic American success story. He did indeed work as a community organizer, who just happened to assemble a political team and conduct a campaign with a ground game that handed the Republicans their heads in 2008 and again in 2012 in spite of his vulnerability due to a weak economic recovery. I know that must gall you as it undoubtedly has such arrogant members of the political class as Rudy Giuliani, who also couldn’t resist mocking Obama for his humble beginnings.

            Now run along to your anger management class, bullies anonymous meeting or mother’s basement for a time-out, and try to stay out of trouble.

          • Zenplatypus

            Oh Brucey, do tell: How’s retirement treating you? Clearly you’re keeping up with your Baracky fan club dues. Good for you! And I see you’re now trying your hand at comedy: “Obama’s was an authentic American success story.” Hilarious stuff, that. I especially enjoyed the anger management reference — after an indignant tirade in defense of your idol. Self-awareness really isn’t your strong suit now is it?

            And psst: The worst economy since Hoover occurred during the presidency of FDR, you know the patron saint of liberalism. But you knew that, right?

          • Bruce94

            Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I don’t believe I could compete with you in the humor dept. or comedy stand-up club. I did think my reference to Hoover might elicit a response similar to what you gave. Maybe we can re-litigate your interpretation of that period in history another time.

            And psst: Baracky is not my idol. He’s the patron saint of center left…actually more center than left for my taste.

          • Zenplatypus

            Roger that. We shall. Cheers.

          • jefe68

            Yeah, that was called the Great Depression. You might want to read up on it.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Barack Obama ..”first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.” – Joseph Biden (US Senate, D-DE)

            There are racists everywhere. This one was picked for as the Dem VP.

          • fun bobby
        • nj_v2

          The forum’s regressive clown posse drops to new lows.

          • jefe68

            They are a repulsive species.

        • JGC

          Why is your un-evil twin on Reddit so full of positive energy and helpful soundbites, but your iteration here so crass and strange?

        • fun bobby

          you forgot to mention he sings like an angel

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6uHR90Sq6k

    • StilllHere

      Yes, I’m sure they’ll go running into the arms of China. Those guys don’t want anything. Or maybe the Germans. They’ve never harmed anyone.

  • quiltgyr

    It always annoys me when people call in claiming that they voted for President Obama, to give them cover for their Tea Party sympathies, and blame him for not singlehandly closing Guantanomo, while ignoring the role Congress played in passing laws restricting him and the Attorney General for doing just that. They trot out Faux News lies and misrepresentations, and label themselves “independent.”

    • fun bobby

      if only that were the only reason Obama was a letdown

    • TFRX

      It’s amazing how, statistically speaking, millions of people must have done that, or how half those in the country who did that end up calling this very show.

      Either that or so many people who call in lie.

      (Hint: On public radio callers can and claim anything, and won’t get hardly any pushback.)

  • Inthefloodzone

    I turned off the radio when the South Carolina man started in with the same tired cliches about Obama’s failings and I didn’t catch the rest because I’m so fed up with the same ol’-same ol’ coming from the T-Party. But Tom, you were asking if we’ve learned anything from this. Here’s my contribution:

    1. The American public is notoriously amnesiac and distractible. Now that the immediate crisis is past, we’ll go back to sleep. In a year we’ll will have forgotten all about this, especially when the next exciting new toy comes along.
    2. But for people who take their democratic responsibilities seriously–and I’m talking about YOU, our elected politicians on both the executive and legislative branches–the lesson is simple: know your enemy.

    3. I’ve noticed over and over that good people consistently underestimate the potential for bad deeds in others. And that’s to their credit. They aren’t bad, so they can’t relate to it effectively. Lesson learned: You Democrats didn’t know your enemy before, but now you do. You need to know that there will be no “Ah shucks, just foolin’ ” from the T-Party, and indeed their statements yesterday in the face of a resounding defeat prove that. So take the hint. There is no poor reflection on you if you refuse to walk down the same path — even half way–with the haters and the crazies.

    4. The sequester is a perfect example. “They only went with it because they thought it was so heinous it would never happen.” Reasonable legislators on both sides of the aisle completely failed to understand how ready the zealots were to take that to its logical conclusion. They completely failed to “get” what sociopaths and generally selfish people are about.

    5. We now know that the T-Party will just keep beating on the drum, and the American voter is suffering badly from crisis fatigue, and so it’s up the remaining White Hats in Congress and in the White House to develop a completely watertight policy to deal with people who have become so intransigent they have crossed the line into unreality.

    6. So what do you do when you can’t reason with unreasonable people? You do an end run, as was just done. You proceed without them and talk to the rest of the group who has been hanging around waiting to be asked but you never did. You refuse to be bullied. You tell them, “Later” or “Anything you want, just not now,” or anything else EXCEPT that they can hold a gun to your head. I understand that Boehner refused to bring a vote to the floor until he knew the GOP would prevail. That’s completely irresponsible toward the American people. Now he got a pyrrhic victory on his hands, and it’s all over but the shouting.

    7. Finally, remember that you may be comfortable with your salary and your savings and your insurance, but our children are frightened by all this, and grownups who live paycheck-to-paycheck were fighting down their panic, as they saw their hard-won creditworthiness possibly go down the tube were it not for an understanding local banker, landlord, or fuel dealer (forget about the credit card companies: computers have no soul).

  • pete18
    • pete18
    • fun bobby

      that is pretty funny

    • jefe68

      You trolls are like a bunch of drunk frat boys.
      What a bunch of morons.

      • pete18

        The only reason we’re drunk is because of your ubiquitous use of the word “nihilist.” Find yourself a thesaurus or start actually making some arguments and we’re sure to sober up.

        • jefe68

          There is no arguing with fools, it’s a pointless endeavor.
          And you lot are fools, and quite pointless.

        • fun bobby

          I was just lamenting he had not said nihilist just then lol

          • StilllHere

            bottoms up

  • jefe68

    Dwight D. Eisenhower: Special Message to the Congress Recommending a Health Program. January 31, 1955.
    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=10399#ixzz2i2m091f

    What happened to the GOP?

    • Fredlinskip

      Good question.
      Quick answer?
      “Conservatives” have switched parties over our “history”.
      The last time was following Johnson Admin, and it was over civil rights and school integration.
      In other words, Ike was a progressive, something today’s GOP would never associate with.

      • jefe68

        Eisenhower was not what I would call a progressive. I guess if you compare him to a Ted Cruz you could say that. There were extremist in the GOP in those days as well, but it seems that the sanity prevailed over craziness.

        He was not a moderate Republican either if you look at his ideas of the roles of government.
        Mind you he did say “government is not the problem, but government can’t solve every problem.” That no longer is supported by the GOP. So one could say he was a moderate.

        When you compare his health care ideas to Truman’s it becomes pretty clear who was more progressive.

        • Fredlinskip

          Didn’t Ike extend Roosevelt’s “New Deal” programs?
          Wouldn’t stimulus spending on infrastructure and 91% tax rates on highest tax bracket be seen as Progressive?

    • pete18

      In 1961 JFK recommended cutting corporate and personal income taxes on both the middle class AND the rich to stimulate the economy.

      “Every dollar that is released from taxation that is spent or invested will help create jobs.”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdXrfIMdiU

      What happened to the Democratic party?

      • jefe68

        Nothing happened to Democratic party, the have grown and become more conservative, that’s for sure. But answering a question with a question is a typical right wing tactic. Because you have nothing. no answers. Except belligerence and contempt, which is what I see in the likes of Ted Cruz and people who support him. Neither Eisenhower or Nixon for that matter, could even be nominated for running for president in the GOP. That’s how far right the Republican party has become.

        It’s hilarious how the right uses JFK to forward their absurd agenda. Really is quite funny how instead of coming up with reasonable answer to my query, you post a false equivalency.
        It’s funny how this speech has bee taken out of context. If you took the time to read the entire speech you would see that Kennedy was being very specific about changing the tax rate, that was still in a WW2 ear level, to one that was better balanced for growth. He wanted to go from 91% to 65%.

        But that’s how you lot roll, you just cherry pick stuff and think it proves a point, forgetting that a man like Kennedy is more than a few lines of a speech.

        http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/01/26/the-myth-of-jfk-as-supply-side-tax-cutter

        Context is key. Conservatives love to quote a speech Kennedy gave at the Economic Club of New York in December 1962. Here’s one quote—I’ve italicized the crucial part often left out: “Our present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to restrain growth, exerts too heavy a drag on growth in peace time; that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incentives for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking.” JFK was not expounding an implacable economic philosophy; he was speaking about a very specific circumstance.

        • pete18

          You didn’t ask a question. You were trying to make a
          rhetorical point buy suggesting
          that because a former Republican recommended a health
          program to congress and the current republican party is against a horrid health plan, that clearly won’t work and was sold on false promises, that they have somehow fallen from some past angelic plateau. My post was just using your tactic with the same comparison to show how empty your point was.

          By repeating someone else’s op-ed about a speech that you
          obviously never read or thought about to draw the absurd conclusion that
          Kennedy was a Keynesian because he was willing to tolerate a deficit is a
          testament to your lack of seriousness. By that definition Reagan was a
          Keynesian too.

          The line that the op-ed write thinks..uh, I mean that you think, conservatives ignore when referring to the Economic club speech is one of the first lines I quote whenever I have posted that speech here because it makes my point all the more sharp. “Our
          present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to
          restrain growth, exerts too heavy a drag on growth in peace time;
          that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incentives for
          personal effort, investment, and risk-taking.”

          He is in fact talking about economic
          theory and not the specific context of a 90% rate. He is expounding on the fact that high rates of World War 2 were created to RESTRAIN growth and that cutting rates, not just at the top but across the board on ALL brackets, was necessary to increase growth during a slump, which is what was happening in the late 50s and early
          60s. That is why today’s conservatives
          are against the idea of raising rates now because that would be particularly
          counter productive during a downturn. Take the time to read the entirety of
          that speech someday and you’ll see that all the arguments that Kennedy makes
          within it are those of supply side economics. You may honestly disagree with Kennedy on that theory but don’t try to pretend he didn’t hold it. I don’t
          agree with everything Eisenhower did.

          OK, I’m going to go get my shot glass
          and wait for the nihilist onslaught. Cheers.

          • jefe68

            You need to read up on Kennedy.
            He was not a supply side politician.
            Also on the idea of a national health plan. While you’re at it how about comprehension. I did ask a question.
            You failed to get it. You failed to see how far to the right the Republican party has moved since Eisenhower was president.

            But that seems to be because you agree with the dogma.

          • pete18

            I’ve read quite a bit about Kennedy (and Eisenhower for that matter) and have not seen anything in his writings, speeches or policies that would make him a Keynesian or make his economic initiatives inconsistant with supply side theory. However, I’m always willing to learn something new. What would you suggest that I read that would support your assertion?

      • TFRX

        Uh, taxes are no longer at those marginal rates? What was that, 85 or 90%?

        Please, don’t go all “Joe The Plumber” on us and expect respect.

        • pete18

          Well yeah, except for the fact that Kennedy cut the rates on ALL the brackets (the lowest being 20%), so obviously there was no Maginot line at the 90% rate.

      • StilllHere

        JFK wouldn’t believe how his party is now dependent on those dependent on the government.

  • RolloMartins

    The picture of Cruz being led down the hallway appears to have him in custody, headed off to jail. Ah, we can hope.

    • rich4321

      He ought to be arrested!

  • rich4321

    As long s this Cruz jerk is still in power, we can anticipate another chaos in 204! He has to get laid more often and chill out.

  • rich4321

    Why should the President negotiate with the hooligans? It is the policy of the nation that never negotiate with terrorists.

    • ExcellentNews

      When the hooligans’ bosses have over 25 TRILLION stashed in hedge funds and offshore accounts, some members of our government will not only negotiate, but bend over and proclaim that night is day.

      Are you surprised by this number? That is the wealth the CBO estimates our billionaire “job creators” have squirreled away since 2000. Where does it come from? Job outsourcing, predatory lending, union busting, crony government contracts, and other practices that would not stand the light of day if government did its job serving the public interest.

      What’s the name of the real game? The oligarchy did not manage to repeal the inheritance tax with Bush. They are livid their misbegotten gains will be taxed when they crook (BTW, the inheritance tax on this non-productive wealth will erase the DEBT and then some more).

      What are their tactics? Fund the election of idiotic thugs to discredit our government institutions. Spam the public forum with nonsense and hate speech to keep the peons confused. And it works…

  • ExcellentNews

    My Tea Party fellows! Even if our noses are bloodied and some of our teeth are scattered on the ground, we achieved a victory!!! The American public has now less confidence in the institutions of a democratically elected government than before. It works – at the mere cost of few hundred million, our corporate patrons can destroy what a nation of people fought and built for two centuries!

    So let’s not stop there! Next, let’s shut down the government over the teaching of evolution in schools !! Then, we will shut it over unleaded gasoline and lead paint job-killing regulations !!! Then, let’s shut it to repeal the women’s vote !!!! Why stop when we are having such crazy fun ?!?!

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Apr 18, 2014
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