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Week In The News: Shutdown Showdown, U.N. Speeches And Obamacare

Locked horns and a shutdown. Health care rollout. Netanyahu at the U.N. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Rosa Guerra, 52, right, gets a free eye exam during the Binational Health Week event held at the Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles Tuesday, Oct. 1, 2013. Tuesday was the first day of the new federal health care law. (AP)

Rosa Guerra, 52, right, gets a free eye exam during the Binational Health Week event held at the Mexican Consulate in Los Angeles Tuesday, Oct. 1, 2013. Tuesday was the first day of the new federal health care law. (AP)

It has been the week of shutdown, with no clear relief in sight, an unsettling soundtrack of gunfire, and a whole lot more risk ahead.  Republicans handed the reins to hardcore Tea Party opponents of the Affordable Care Act – and there we’re stuck.  Democrats say they won’t negotiate with hostage takers.  The country, looking like a hostage.  While Washington fought, an historic health reform rolled out.  Lots of glitches.  But it lives.  The woman who crashed into Capitol Hill barriers in her car does not.  Up next On Point:  Shutdown.  A shooting.  Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Molly Ball, staff writer covering national politics at The Atlantic. (@mollyesque)

Bob Cusack, managing editor of The Hill. (@BobCusack)

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

The Atlantic: The Night The GOP Cracked Up — “Monday was a frantic day on Capitol Hill, though all the activity ultimately came to nought: A flurry of last-minute legislative feints failed to prevent the government from shutting down at midnight. But in the process, House Republicans’ total crackup was on full, public display.”

The Hill: Cracks Emerge In House GOP On Shutdown Strategy — “Wolf agrees with Rigell, a Wolf aide told The Hill. In a statement on the House floor Tuesday, Wolf said, “This is bad for America. It is bad for America. Enough is enough. It’s time to be leaders. It’s time to govern. Open up the government.’”

The Guardian: Author Tom Clancy Dies In Baltimore Hospital At Age 66 — “Though he had no military or espionage experience, he managed to sound absolutely authentic, making himself an expert on military hardware and tactics. He was often invited to lecture to military audiences and counted high-ranking US army and security services personnel among his friends; he was frequently consulted as a pundit on US military affairs. When asked about his research, he said: ‘I read the papers, watch CNN and think … It’s all in the open. You just have to know where to look.” He kept an M4A1 tank on his lawn, and had a shooting range in his basement.’”

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  • Mike_Card

    Ted Cruz is a s**t head, as is anyone who thinks that he has anything sane to say about anything. And that extends to all the tea-party crack-heads.

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      A sad reflection on the Republican party which thought they could co-opt, but only enabled these wing nuts.

      I think Mark Twain put it aptly –
      “A person who won’t read has no advantage over one who can’t read.”

      This also applies to the T-party with respect to act of thinking, especially for those who drink from the fire hose of vitriol and fear wielded by the likes of Rush Limbaugh who don’t have an ethical bone in their bodies and rely on ignorance and blind rage to build and perpetuate their self serving mythology which is all about one thing – not ethics, not morality, not “freedom”, its all geared toward self aggrandizement, personal enrichment and aquisition of power.

      Cruz is the poster-child for narcissistic personality disorder

      • John Cedar

        I just googled it and see that Cruz took 69% of the vote in 2012. {chcuckle} he is not there to represent the millions of ACORN voters that voted 10 times, he is there to represent the ~70% that voted for him.

        I heard snippets from his speech because I watch Fox News and they are good about covering the news fair and balanced. Regardless of motive, he made a lot of great points when he talk talk talked.

        • HonestDebate1

          No one here seems to know or care what Cruz actually said. They are just mad that he said it.

          • John Cedar

            I dunno…
            I think everyone knows he spoke of Green Eggs and Ham.
            In fact, that spiteful little man, Jon Stewart noted that when Sam actually tried green eggs, he liked them. Just as Stewart did not realize he liked crack pipe and the flesh of babies until he tried them.

          • fun bobby

            cmon in 21 hours he read green eggs and ham and that’s it according to the network news

        • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

          70% in a gerrymandered district? 51% was a collective figure and the republicans lost the popular vote in the both the presidential AND the house races but republicans retained a majority through gerrymandering.

      • fun bobby

        so the republicans have been doing suicide bombings? or are you saying that terrorists have been unleashing long rambling speeches on people?

    • Coastghost

      How dare you impugn Princeton and Harvard!

      • Don_B1

        Princeton and Harvard (and Yale) impugn themselves by not asking Senator Rafael Edward “Ted” Cruz (and George W. Bush) to return their diplomas as not living up to the high civic and moral standards that those Colleges/Universities say they stand for.

    • Jasoturner

      The thing to remember is that Cruz’s game is not governing or legislating. It is consolidating his own power and wealth. In his mind he is succeeding. What he does to his colleagues or the American public is probably pretty irrelevant to him. Thus, his actual political positions are perhaps best viewed as props.

      • HonestDebate1

        Cruz did a tele-townhall and 104,000 participated. He is acting on behalf of his constituents.

        • Jasoturner

          Just because people are willing listen to him does not make his motives or actions any less opaque, so this is not a revealing observation.

          Many people with pretty unpleasant agendas have plenty of followers – and there are politicians and national leaders included in that group.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m just saying politicians should be loyal to their constituents, that’s all.

            Do you consider Obama’s agenda to fundamentally transform America to be pleasant?

          • Jasoturner

            You need to define “fundamentally transform”. Otherwise this is just a slogan.

            Do I think joining the rest of the industrialized world in granting our citizens access to healthcare to be pleasant? Yes, I do. Maybe because my aunt was financially wiped out when she had the never to get cancer and die, which seemed cruel and unfair.

          • HonestDebate1

            “Granting our citizens access to healthcare”

            There’s your slogan.

            America is being transformed into a European style (aka industrialized world) socialized system.

          • Jasoturner

            For someone with a preexisting health condition who could not secure healthcare previously, it most assuredly is not a slogan. So a swing and a miss on that one.

            American is being transformed into a second world power that worships wealth, power and sound bites. It disdains nuance and critical thinking. Most Americans can’t define socialism, let alone select it or reject it on the merits.

            Ah yes, those nutty socialists like Germany. I’m sure they envy our incredible manufacturing prowess, our reasonably priced health care, our virtually free educational costs. Indeed, our willingness to price education out of reach for the lower and middle class may be America’s biggest historic blunder.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are conflating health care with health insurance. Everyone in America has access to healthcare. You further conflate access with affordability. And then you assume Obamacare is not only a solution but the only solution.

            My German friends just became American citizens, they agree.

          • Jasoturner

            You are correct, I am playing loose by not specifying access to insurance rather than access to healthcare per se. However, if you cannot secure insurance, the cost of healthcare can break a family financially for generations. Thus, the reality on the ground is significant, semantics and sloppy language aside.

            At no point have I asserted nor do I assume that the ACA is the one and only solution. But it is today’s law of the land. You may amend your post at your convenience to correct this unfortunate assumption about my position.

            As for your friends, all I can add is the old saw: anecdote is not data.

          • HonestDebate1

            Sure, apologies for assuming. Let me ask you this way, do you think Obamacare is a solution at all?

          • Jasoturner

            I will give you a serious answer. If you look at the cost of health care in American, and if you look at our health outcomes, and compare us with the rest of the world, we have a system that is broken and that creates an untenable financial burden on our economy. That’s item one, though Obama care only indirectly (but importantly) affects this discussion.

            I also know it to be true that the healthcare that is provided to the uninsured or the indigent is not paid for with pixie dust. It is larded into my, your and every insured persons premiums, and is loaded into the costs for services that hospitals provide – a classic case of free-riderism.

            The Obama plan is at least a first effort to get rid of the free riders, which should lower the average cost of both insurance, and the cost to hospitals to deliver service. And for the empirical data that the ACA will deliver alone, it has great value.

            Furthermore, the health care industry is now focusing on cost containment as never before (or at least, not since I’ve seen over the past 20+ years around the industry) which is an indirect consequence of the ACA – they know price pressures are coming that the ACA is causing. Bending the cost curve (yeah, horrible cliche, sorry) is *essential* if the United States is to remain competitive. So this is a big positive.

            Look, I’m an engineer and therefore somewhat pragmatic. If I try something and it doesn’t work, I think about alternatives and try those until I find something that does. To me, the ACA is a start, and it can be modified if portions of it don’t or can’t work. I am unwilling to discard the effort because it may be imperfect. Too many people are willing to sacrifice the good at the temple of the perfect in this world already.

            Have a good weekend, ’cause I gotta get off the web and get to work…

          • HonestDebate1

            I appreciate your taking time to answer. I guess the nub of my disagreement is I do not think Obamacare is good. I do not think it is an improvement over the bad system we had. I do think the rest of the industrialized world is crumbling and the system is not sustainable, fair or effective. I also believe Obamacare is completely unworkable and destined to implode.

          • Don_B1

            And you have as much basis for your opinion as if you were trying to tell us that the Moon was made of green cheese.

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude, that’s what you implied earlier today and I gave you the evidence you asked for. I didn’t even get so much as a thank you.

            The case can easily made that Obamacare is a disaster.

          • Denis

            maybe; maybe not. The point is it is the law. If one wants to improve the law you work to do so by presenting your alternative proposal rather than 40 some attempts to not fund or otherwise disrupt the implementation of the law. and then commit a terrorist act of hostage taking to shut down the government and prevent many people from getting cancer treatments etc.

          • Denis

            And my son and his German wife just moved back to Germany where they had lived before. Their outrage about the tea party, lack of compassion for fellow citizens, lack of true family values etc. etc. is heartbreaking.
            Additionally, where do you get your info? I suppose theoretically all Americans have access to healthcare; practically speaking this is just not true. The distances needed to travel to get to the “free” hospital / doctor is often just not possible and if it is the time frame often is so long it just does not work.

          • Don_B1

            So you are willing to have your property divided up so the millions that live in large cities where they cannot live in a non-industrialized way can return to the farm life?

            I am waiting to see your announcement of your donation of a acre or more of property for anyone who wants to “homestead it.”

          • HonestDebate1

            Hell no, I worked very hard and made many sacrifices and tough choices to amass land and I’m clueless idiot. If I can do it anyone can. Get your own.

          • fun bobby

            are you saying he has a hidden agenda?

          • Jasoturner

            Go back to my initial post. The loop has now closed upon itself.

      • StilllHere

        So he’s pulling an Obama.

        • Jasoturner

          Oh snap! Close the internets, we’ve heard the cleverest comment of the day!

          • Don_B1

            Thank you for your patience in dealing honestly and effectively with these trolls.

            [By “effectively” I do not mean that you will have changed their minds, which is a Sisyphean task, but that you have helped others see their willful intransigence.

          • PoliticsWatcher

            Poe’s Law

      • keltcrusader

        that is generally how sociopaths work

    • hennorama

      Mike_Card – Interesting.

      I did not realize that Ted Cruz is a scut head, with a short erect tail. How does he hide it? Did he have it removed, along with his first name, Rafael?

      Perhaps you mean “sist head.” That seems more appropriate, as ‘sist’ means (per dictionary.com):

      “Sist

      Sist, v. t. [L. sistere to bring to a stand, to stop.]

      1. (Scots Law) To stay, as judicial proceedings; to delay or suspend; to stop.
      2. To cause to take a place, as at the bar of a court; hence, to cite; to summon; to bring into court. [Scot.]

      Definition 1. would apply both to Sen. Rafael Edward Cruz’ recent fauxlibuster, as well as his efforts to “defund Obamacare,” which have resulted in the partial Federal government shutdown.

      See:
      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sist

      Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Well done, sir.

      • HonestDebate1

        That was deep, relevant and right on topic.

      • Don_B1

        Senator Cruz possibly outdid his previous performance with a shorter but still winding and contorted with contradiction “lecture” on the Senate floor this afternoon!

        • hennorama

          Don-B1 — do you have a link to coverage of said event handy? Thanks for the heads up, BTW.

          • Don_B1

            I had just got in from driving across the state and was channel-surfing when I hit on the Martin Bashir show and saw this brain-stopping excerpt of Senator Cruz’s earlier speech, which appears to not have hit high on anyone else’s list:

            http://video.msnbc.msn.com/martin-bashir/53188691

            Sometimes being in the right place at the right time is rewarding!

            I hope it will get broader acknowledgement, but then the crazies will love it and fail to see its insanity.

          • hennorama

            Don_B1 – many thanks, sir.

    • SteveTheTeacher

      Sin duda, aun Yoani esta agredecida que se fue de Cuba.

      • hennorama

        STT — psst … agrAdecida

        • SteveTheTeacher

          Gracias.

          Como dicen en mi universidad.

          - soy inginiero,

          - soy ingenero,

          - Puedo hacer matematica

          No puedo letrear bien, ni en espanol ni en ingles.

          • hennorama

            SST de nada, and no worries.

            Your “affliction” is not in any way limited to engineers. Best wishes.

  • OnPointComments

    What must a government employee do to be denied salary and benefits? I don’t know, but I know some things that won’t disqualify them.

    Fraud, corruption, ethical lapses, and bribes don’t disqualify them. John Beale, senior policy analyst at the EPA, stole nearly $1 million dollars from the EPA. He still gets full retirement, including credit for the 13 years he mostly didn’t work when he said he did. How about his supervisor, who took an $8,000 bribe from Mercedes-Benz during the time the EPA was setting CAFE standards? Nope, he still gets full retirement, even though the Assistant Inspector General recommended prosecution.

    Surely murder must disqualify them, right? Nope, you still get paid after committing murder. Major Nidal Hasan shot and killed 13 people and wounded more than 30 others, but still got paid $278,000 after the carnage.

    I bet the federal employee union is pleased.

    • northeaster17

      After his conviction Hasan will probably loose his paycheck. But the other two. Were they convicted?

  • Wm_James_from_Missouri

    Hey Boston, I’m “goodwill hunting” today, someone call Matt Damon, get some math-wiz on the phone, AC, wake up, Barry put your thinking cap on, call up the Clay Institute, better tell’em that the On Point listeners, are looking to solve the Riemann Zeta Equation and capture that million dollar prize for NPR. Can you spell “Q.E.D.“, see it was easy, wasn’t it? :)
    Now that the hard part is done, let’s try to put it all together. I think we need to review the basics.

    We want to prove that all of the, so called, non trivial zeros of the equation:

    0 = 1 + 1/(2)^s + 1/ (3)^s + 1/(4)^s + 1/(5)^s…, lie on the line x = ½ [ assuming an x, y plane of course]. In other words, Re(s) = ½ , given that a +bi is the general solution.

    Let’s get started:

    I think we might take that “ 1” and throw it to the left side as a negative 1. You see, I’m thinking that we might be able to use the Menelaus Theorem, also called the Giovanni Ceva Theorem. It states that for triangle ABC, and points L,M,N on the sides AB, BC and CA, respectively that for L,M,N collinear that the following relationship is true:

    (AL/LB)*(BM/MC)*(CN/NA) = -1. Or 1, depending how the triangle is drawn and if one of the points are external to the triangle or not.

    It would seem that you might be able to superimpose this configuration over the complex plane and somehow demonstrate that the product of these three ratios that are equal to negative one, could be used to modify the right side of the “R” equation, such that we could, (somehow?) work on “S” and simplify the original equation?

    What do you think ?

    This has been haunting me for some time now, I really would like some help !

    • SteveTheTeacher

      When you finish, could you help me solve Navier-Stokes?

      • Wm_James_from_Missouri

        Sorry, I am too busy. You see I am convinced that P=NP, or NP can be made arbitrarily close to P. I think about it a lot. Not telling anyone if I can finally demonstrate it, not taking the Clay prize either. That knowledge is worth far more than One Million and “they” know it. With a “smart” enough AI system I am guessing it is worth Billions !

        • SteveTheTeacher

          For my own brain, P definitely does not equal NP.

          I’m willing to accept Godol’s principle of incompleteness, particularly as it relates to number theory.

          However, as a practical matter, for many of the problems of energy transport that I work on, general solutions to PDF’s, and Navier-Stokes in particular, would go a long way towards facilitating advances in the field of sustainable energy and would cut down the inordinate amount of computational time spent in unelegant numeric approximation.

      • Wm_James_from_Missouri

        Teacher Steve,

        I know that your having some fun with me, but I just want to add, to your math quip, that I find it very, very disturbing that there are so many unsolved math conjectures. Especially those that are easy to state and simple in form. These conjectures should be a constant reminder of how inept we are despite the self image we choose to covet. (Boy, if I could just reach into my brain and move some things around and speed up some of those connections ! ) Think of all of the comments on this site that have been made by all of us about some very, intricate and complex subjects. If we can’t solve the simply stated math problems how can we hope to solve the tough stuff ?

        • Jasoturner

          Imagine an alien species that has orders of magnitude more neural connections than us. Imagine that they can solve such mathematical puzzles in their heads as virtually self-evident.

          What would that say about man being created in gods image? And how would such creatures view us? As we see dolphins or apes compared to ourselves?

          • fun bobby

            they might say
            “so it goes”

          • Jasoturner

            Kurt? Is that you?

          • fun bobby

            we all suffer from his absence

          • Jasoturner

            We suffer when any artist dies, no?

          • fun bobby

            not only an artist but an adroit social commentator

          • Wm_James_from_Missouri

            Well? If you think of God as being an infinite entity then from our perspective, our self image is constantly trying to “catch up”, to the original image, no? We have quite a way to go !

    • AC

      argh! what kind of torture are trying to foist upon me? i can get obsessive about these things….
      i am my father’s daughter sometimes….sigh

    • Matt MC

      Quite the non sequitur. I forgot about those Unsolved Mysteries of Math. Do do do do do do, do do do do do DE!

  • SteveTheTeacher

    Why the lack of coverage of Herman Wallace’s release from nearly 42 years in solitary confinement?

    Way before the recent advances in government surveillance, Herman Wallace’s Black Panther work made him a focus of government repression. Nearly 42 years in a small cell with little contact with another human being, now released with only day’s to live; Herman’s case is one more example of what government officials can do to a person whose political perspective they seek to stifle.

    • StilllHere

      Was Brent Miller’s political perspective stifled?

      • SteveTheTeacher

        Clearly grounds for throwing out the constitutional rights of the accused and nearly 42 years in solitary.

  • Ray in VT

    I know that maybe it could have been raised in last week’s roundup, but baseball lost one of it’s true all time greats, with Mariano Rivera having retired. He was a part of the bane of the existence for many Red Sox fans over the years, but he was a truly amazing athlete and a class act. The move that was made in his last home appearance where Joe Girardi allowed two of his long time teammates to go get him was very moving. Cooperstown will be calling as soon as it can.

    • Don_B1

      But the Red Sox managed to take away the Saves that would have denied them the 2004 World Championship, and knocked him out a number of other times, perhaps more than any other team (?).

    • TFRX

      Disclaimer: Not a Sox or a Yankees fan.

      But my friends and family who are Sox fans are annoyed that they can’t “hate” Rivera on a personal level, the way A-Rod* is (to fans of many teams). The way the late-70s Yankees were. Rivera and many of the modern Yankees are simply too much a class act.

      (*Remember how he got the nickname “Slappy”, especially.)

      • Ray in VT

        It’s tough to dislike a guy who is so good, yet carries himself with such poise, composure and grace. It’s like disliking Jeter. I’d sort of like to as a lifetime Red Sox fan, but I just can’t.

      • Jasoturner

        True. As a Bostonian, I take no pleasure seeing Jeter’s recent struggles. They have some very solid guys. Posada was pretty awesome too.

  • Ed75

    The pope is reorganizing the Curia – in part to make it function more as a unit, better communication, more efficiency. But more profoundly, he wants the Vatican to be more visibly at the service of the rest of the Church, and the world, not so much the dictating head as the servant and resource. He is stressing collegiality as outlined in Vatican II. (John Paul liked the papal title ‘Servant of the servants of God’.)

    • Don_B1

      My congratulations on a nice positive statement.

      • Ed75

        It’s easy to be positive about the Church … to be positive about the world in the immediate future would be untruthful.

  • Fredlinskip

    IF GOP dislikes the democratic process as outlined in our constitution so much, perhaps they should consider moving elsewhere.
    How about Somalia?
    There’s not many pesky laws there- they can be free as they want..

    • Don_B1

      They dislike the democratic process because they cannot dictate the result. That is also why they dislike government.

      All of which says that they, in principle, should like Somalia, except that they are unlikely to find it good in practice. Thus going there for a year or so might well benefit (at least some of) them.

      • HonestDebate1

        The democratic process would require Obama to implement the law of the land as written and codified by Congress. If he wants to change the law of the land then by law he is required to use the democratic process. But he doesn’t like the democratic process so he issue a decree.

        If you want more examples of Obama’s disdain for the democratic just let me know.

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

          The democratic process requires that Republicans use the legislative process to repeal the ACA. They have failed over 40 times to do this, so they need to move on.

          Instead they are holding the entire government hostage.

          • HonestDebate1

            They ARE using the democratic process.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            Really?

          • HonestDebate1

            Yes.

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

            When did they vote on shutting down the government? When did they vote on a clean CR?

          • HonestDebate1

            When did they vote on exempting certain entities from the mandate? When did the Senate vote on a budget?

          • lobstahbisque

            They are abusing the democratic process.

        • Denis

          exactly what law of the land is President Obama not implementing?
          Republican House: Follow the legislative process to change laws you do not like and when you lose you lose… that is the legislative, democratic, constitutional way.

          • HonestDebate1

            Obamacare.

          • Denis

            and exactly how is President Obama not implementing the Affordable Care Act?

          • Denis

            And how is the President not implementing the Affordable Care Act?

          • HonestDebate1

            He has delayed 19 provisions by decree.

          • Denis

            So is your position those 19 provisions should not have been delayed?

          • HonestDebate1

            My position is the law should not have been passed but my point is it was. If he wanted to change the law he should have used the democratic process required by law.

            At this point I think he should be forced to implement it as is and let the chips fall. He doesn’t want that but it’s the law of the land.

          • Denis

            I believe President Obama did not change the law as it is written. He changed some of the implementation procedures as is permissible under the law. I am not a lawyer and some who is a lawyer may give better clarification of this point. I do know as a student of politics and history the executive branch is often charged with implementation and maintenance of many programs and they use their interpretation to administer the law.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      The TeaOP is basically the old confederacy. I really do wish they would re-secede. Somalia wd be nice, tho I wouldn’t wish them on the innocent Somalis. But they can stay where they are and be happy with their bibles, guns and 3′rd world theo/aristo/cracy. We can use them as a source of cheap labor and raw materials, like any good 3′rd world oligarchy. I’m sick of them. They don’t deserve to be called Americans any more.

      • fun bobby

        us and them. that’s what makes America great

        • TomK_in_Boston

          Up to a point, like 1860.

          • fun bobby

            so do you want to slaughter southerners and scorch the earth or what?

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Give me a break, bobby. I already said abt 5 times that I’d like to give them the chance to re-secede, let them go peacefully and enjoy their 3′rd world CSA.

          • fun bobby

            you know that you will have to keep Detroit right?

      • TFRX

        Hey, they can leave.

        If they are serious, let them try that during a magical period of press-enforced flag-lapel-pin wearing country-lovin’ patriotism Republican president’s term.

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Why do reporters think that they have to call this “bickering” or petty political fighting? This is clearly a result of the Republicans trying ~42 times to repeal the ACA – and failing – and now they are holding the entire government hostage.

    The Tea Party has been promising a government shutdown for several years now. This is just the latest fig leaf.

    • Jasoturner

      To answer your first question, because journalistic integrity is basically dead in the mainstream U.S. media. They’re all to busy trying to be rock stars to worry about honest and substantive reporting. If the U.S. press were filled with reporters like Glenn Greenwald, the absurdity of the republican posturing would have been exposed and rendered ridiculous weeks ago.

      • Don_B1

        If reporters actually put in print how deceptively the Republicans are spinning their actions that have the effect of crippling the economic recovery and ensuring that the middle- and lower-income worker have no chance of improving their lives, they would never get another interview with a Republican and would be vilified on the FNC (Fox) cable channel and in the WSJ, the Weekly Standard, and Forbes and the American Spectator. I would mention the Drudge Report and Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, but they have already committed themselves to basically libeling most of the mainstream press.

    • fun bobby

      “It should be noted that many of the police officers who were involved with the “incident” yesterday are not being paid.”
      why? does that explain why they were so trigger happy?
      what a scumbag for letting WW2 veterans into their memorial!

    • William

      Obama has said for 4 years he wants a budget but Congress just gives him a CR. He wants entitlement reform but Congress ignores him. He wants to cut spending but Congress keeps spending. Well, give him what he wants and move forward!!!!

      • Don_B1

        President Obama wants a RESPONSIBLE budget, which none of the budgets generated by the Republican House of Representatives have been.

        And then, when Democrats in the Senate build a responsible budget, Republicans in the Senate and House take turns preventing reconciliation committees from being formed to resolve the differences between them, so the end result has been no budget, with the exception of the Budget Control Act which came out of the July 2011 negotiations that avoided a U.S. debt default and also created the sequester that is crippling NIH, NASA, the National Parks, etc.

  • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

    FTA:
    Justice Potter Stewart, writing a dissent in Smith v. Maryland, eerily anticipated today’s discussions about the revelatory nature of phone metadata:

    The numbers dialed from a private telephone — although certainly more prosaic than the conversation itself – are not without ‘content.’ Most private telephone subscribers may have their own numbers listed in a publicly distributed directory, but I doubt there are any who would be happy to have broadcast to the world a list of the local or long distance numbers they have called. This is not because such a list might in some sense be incriminating, but because it easily could reveal the identities of the persons and the places called, and thus reveal the most intimate details of a person’s life.

    http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/10/nsa-smith-purse-snatching/

  • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

    FTA:
    NOM President Brian Brown accuses the IRS of stonewalling and says the group has proof that its tax return was leaked.

    “This is a federal crime,” Brown said. “Worse, the confidential information contained in the illegally leaked documents included the identity of dozens of major donors and the HRC used the confidential donor information to harass our donors. This is a chilling set of circumstances that should ring alarm bells across the nation.”

    http://washingtonexaminer.com/marriage-group-files-laws-suit-accusing-irs-of-leaking-its-private-donor-list/article/2536766

    • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

      FYI today is day 148 of the IRS scandal. I regretfully agree with the majority of Americans that crimes were committed and the guilty will go unpunished.

      http://www.sunshinestatenews.com/blog/few-believe-irs-will-be-punished-tea-party-targeting

      • Don_B1

        Typically, whatever “targeting” took place, any group that used a word in its name that had any political significance was given extra requests for information and only left-leaning groups were eventually denied 501c5 status.

        In other words, tell the whole story or keep quiet.

        • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

          In others words, “RWB is allowed free speech only as long as he agrees with Don_B1.”
          No thanks.
          I post the truth about what is going on. You don’t have to agree with it or like it. You don’t even have to read it. Do as your conscience dictates. As I will do as my conscience demands.

  • HonestDebate1

    The Obamacare internet enrollment is a hacker’s dream.

    • Don_B1

      Evidence?

      I don’t expect any from you.

    • John_in_Amherst

      in the first two days of sign-up in NY, there were 30M hits on the website. This for a state with 2.5 uninsured people. There is an investigation to determine if the system was being overloaded intentionally w/ robo-hits by opponents of the ACA.

      • HonestDebate1

        California reported they had 5 million hits and now admits it was only 645K.

        • John_in_Amherst

          and the point is??

          • HonestDebate1

            Specifically, that the 30 million hits may not be an accurate number but it’s really an aside. I do suspect shenanigans and believe the system is fraught with peril.

          • John_in_Amherst

            more perilous than walking into an ER with no medical coverage a painful lump that keeps growing?

          • HonestDebate1

            Yes.

          • Don_B1

            How do you dare to get up every morning with such a timid attitude?

      • keltcrusader

        could it be people trying to sign on more than once due to technical difficulties?

  • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

    FTA:
    It wasn’t just spending of course. Bush also built the intrusive post-9/11 national-security state that Obama has embraced, and which a growing number libertarian Tea Partiers have come to hate, including National Security Agency surveillance and a program of frequent but secret drone strikes.

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/who-broke-washington/george-w-bush-he-gave-rise-to-the-tea-party-20131003

    • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

      Just what I have been saying all along.

      • HonestDebate1

        It’s a slippery slope but the problem is not the law it’s the abuse of the law. Request for data under section 215 has increased 1000 fold under Obama. The provision was designed only for data on ongoing investigations and never intended to target individuals not already under investigation. The radical zealots and high crime thugs are all over whatever new technology is out there. There is a need to keep up or we’re toast. Technology and ethics are always on a collision course. The problem as I see it is Obama is on the wrong side of the paradigm.

        BTW RWB what’s brewing with the Tea party for 2014?

        • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

          Mostly the Tea Party movement will be focusing on Congressional and Senate elections. In Worcester we are collaborating with PANDAA and the Right to Refuse Amendment.

          • fun bobby

            what’s pandaa? have you all been supporting GOAL? we have a big fight coming on beacon hill with devils crazy new gun control schemes

          • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

            The Knox Trail chapter is working on that. Bud did great work in getting people to those meeting.

          • fun bobby

            does it look like any of that stuff will pass?

          • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

            Can’t tell, of the 60 maybe 10 are improvements worth making.

          • fun bobby

            devil suggested things that were improvements or has some one submitted a “shall issue” bill?

          • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

            Goal has a list:

            http://www.goal.org/legislation.html

            Jim Wallace has been doing great work.

          • fun bobby

            thank God for him we need more like him

  • fun bobby

    the tom Clancy story is great because of all the times when liberals ask. should people be allowed to have a tank if they want?

    • jefe68

      My neighbor has a armored car. It’s not armed, it’s WW2 vintage, British I think.

      • fun bobby

        that’s pretty sweet, you should ask him to take you to the range he probably has some cool historical guns

  • northeaster17

    Concerning the Green Peace Activists being charged with piracy by the Russians.

    We’ve all heard that during the expansion of the Europeon Powers over the last several hundred years how natives and locals were enslaved to do the bidding of the powers that were. If they refused they were rubbed out.
    Today’s such powers are big oil and all those that support them. What we do and how we live is for them. Get in the way at your own risk. Your protest will not be tolorated. You are of little consequence. History will not know your name. Don’t believe me? Read some history on the conquest of the America’s

    • hennorama

      northeaster17 — I haven’t kept up with this issue. What’s the current status of the Greenpeace activists? The captain is a US citizen, as I recall.

      • northeaster17

        All charge with Piracy

    • William

      They picked the wrong bear to play with and now they are going to jail.

      • northeaster17

        Funny how Putin is now a hero for the right.

  • hennorama

    R.I.P. Tom Clancy.

    You left us far, far too soon, and will be greatly missed.

  • MrNutso

    According to Greg Walden (R.- OR), chairman of the National Republican Congressional committee when asked at a recent fundraising event with wealthy GOP supporters why the GOP was so enthralled with the extremist wing and their party seem closed to a government shutdown and/or debt default:

    “Listen,” Walden said, according to several people present. “We have to do this because of the Tea Party. If we don’t, these guys are going to get primaried and they are going to lose their primary.”

    • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

      As it should be.

  • JONBOSTON

    Tom Asbrook and Jack Beatty:
    Rather than engage in your typical Republican bashing , please explain how Obama’s demonizing his Republican opposition and adament refusal to even engage in negotiations demonstrates presidential leadership? Or is this another example of leading from behind , this time behind the noted “statesman”, Harry Reid , probably the slimiest most awful member of the US Senate?
    Also, help me understand the difference between Obama’s unilateral ( or should I say dictatorial) “amending ” of Obamacare with all of the exemptions ( especially the one given to Congress and their staffs) and postponements that he’s doled out ,including delays for big business, no proof of incomes for those seeking federal (ie taxpayer) subsidies, etc. and the Republican request that the individual mandate be delayed.

    • northeaster17

      I’d like to see some Rethugs talk about all the money that’s being wasted and trouble being caused by their childish political brinkmanship. For a program that is now law

      • JONBOSTON

        I guess your calling Republicans “rethugs” is more constructive than Obama, Reid and Pelosi calling them arsonists, extremists , extortionists , etc. Very helpful and constructive dialogue, especially when your talkng about elected officials representing nearly half of all voters ,especially those that work in the private sector, pay federal income taxes, and avoid government welfare.
        BTW, you should know that there have been 18 shutdowns since 1976 , including six shutdowns for 12 days at this point in Reagan’s second term as a result of failed budget negotiations between the White House , a Republican senate and House Democrats under Tip O’Neill.

        • northeaster17

          I guess my attitude comes from all the years I’ve listened to things like Obamy or he’s a muslim(as though thats a crime) or he is a Anti Colonial Kenyon etc etc etc. Or even, if your not with us your against us. etc etc etc
          Get over it.

    • John_in_Amherst

      there were extensive negotiations for a couple of years to get the ACA passed to begin with. what is happening now is blackmail, which in this context, amounts to treason.

  • James Patrick Dwyer Jr.

    The tea Party group first made their appearance at democrats town hall meetings and they were delighted. I do believe attitudes have changed.

    • TFRX

      Yeah, funny how many Republicans (“moderate” and wingnutTea) have decided that Town Halls are too full of the public this time around.

      Perhaps all the videos showing GOP congresscritters lying about Obamacare just isn’t a winning message.

  • edrea

    GOP House lawmakers will never, ever be able to utter the word “bipartisan” again.

    • MrNutso

      Sure they will. “We have a bi-partisan Republican bill. Both our Tea Party members and our other members voted for it.”

      • anamaria23

        The Tea Party has overreached this time. Major Republican donors are pulling out as revealed on Morning Joe. Jim DeMint’s ploy is not working.
        Ted Cruz is becoming sidelined by the moderates and would never win nomination
        Too much is at stake and an aware public understands that this is blackmail. Even those who are against the ACA accept that it is law and should be changed by legislating which seems too boring for Cruz.
        “Fools (Cruz, DeMint, Gingrich) rush in where wise men fear to tread” was never more apt.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

      They claim to be conservatives. I don’t think they know the definition of that word.

      • TFRX

        “Conservative” is a word that used to have meaning.

        Now all we have left is fictional characters like Ron Swanson and Hank Hill.

    • HonestDebate1

      Well the irony here is, in the history of the universe, Obamacare is the most sweeping and transformative law to ever be passed on 100% partisan vote. It required kickbacks, bribes and gimmicks. This is the result.

  • MrNutso

    Bob, if these guys are centrists, why did they cast so many votes in favor of bills that the senate would obviously reject that resulted in the shut down?

  • alsordi

    Listened to the interview with Bibi Netanyahu. He’s got to be the most blatant unmitigated arrogant hypocrite on planet earth.

    I can only imagine rabid zionists giving this man any credibility. Anyone with any sense of fairness and logic would understand that Netanyahu is the real terrorist and troublemaker in the region he occupies.

  • hennorama

    All this discussion of the partial Federal shutdown, Obamasurance, etc. is too disruptive. Let’s discuss something less controversial.

    QUESTION: Which is the larger figure, the total US war deaths since 1775, or the total US deaths from gunshot wounds since 1968?

    ANSWER (per theguardian.com): 212,994 more Americans lost their lives from firearms [use and misuse] in the last 45 years than in all wars involving the US.

    See:
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter?CMP=twt_gu

    Sources for the article above:
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
    http://icasualties.org/
    http://www.cdc.gov/

    • HonestDebate1

      That’s a perfect example of a whacked out conclusion reached by using accurate facts.

      At the very least you should cite some figures noting lives saved by the use of guns. Also, millions of lives were saved by nuking Japan so calculate that too… and they didn’t use guns. Why did you omit theses factors?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Freakonomics!!

      • hennorama

        Debates Not, He — no conclusion was presented in my post. Only facts and a comparison of those facts was presented, by quoting an online article.

        If you wish to present other factual information for comparison, please do so.

        If you wish to discuss other portions of the cited article, please do so. I would normally recommend that you direct your comments about the article to the theguardian,com website, but the comments are now closed. Perhaps you should simply begin another thread in this forum.

        I have no opinion about the cited article, and in fact have not read it in full. I merely found the comparison to be interesting, which is why I presented it.

        Thank you for your interest.

        • HonestDebate1

          Then you are just spreading propaganda without verification and omitting key components of the issue. But it fits your ideology so you roll with it. Typical.

          I already noted yesterday how you beat around the bush and never take a stand on anything,

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – the underlying data cited in the article are available from the secondary sources cited in my OP, which I did indeed confirm.

            If you are not interested in the data and the comparison, feel free to not respond. [fingers crossed]

          • HonestDebate1

            I am interested it the truth, that requires responding to your propaganda.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He — facts and comparisons of those facts are not propaganda.

            Thank you again for your interest. Now please STFU (Stick To Foaling Ungulates).

          • HonestDebate1

            But selected facts dripping with innuendo and posted on blogs are. Smarty pants.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – the entirety of your comments come under the rubric of the following, from the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic:

            [Don't tell me what I think]

            As stated, I merely found the comparison to be interesting, which is why I presented it.

            Sometimes information simply leads one to think “What the …?” This was such an instance for me. Perhaps the comparison of the facts does not surprise you, but it certainly surprised me, which motivated me to present it here, in the “grab bag” WITN forum.

            Thank you again for your interest.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re so funny!

          • Don_B1

            Cherry-picking facts that drip with false innuendo is your main modus operandi!

            You must see no way to respond to his facts that are real, verifiable and are not controvertible and can only claim that he is doing what you do so much of the time that it is second nature to you.

            And you are not alone in this within the Republican Party, you just seem to be one of the biggest users of this debate skulduggery.

          • Ray in VT

            “That’s a perfect example of a whacked out conclusion reached by using accurate facts.”

            “you are just spreading propaganda without verification and omitting key
            components of the issue. But it fits your ideology so you roll with it. Typical.”

            Truer statements could not be made regarding many of your posts.

            “I am interested it the truth”. Just so long as you believe it, regardless of facts or definitions to the contrary.

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you reject the notion that guns can save lives? Do you see the irony of Ms. Omitnothing omitting plenty?

          • Ray in VT

            Why would I? Radiation can also save lives, but that doesn’t mean that it always does.

            I just find your critical comments to be very funny, given the history of so many of your comments.

          • HonestDebate1

            So you have no disagreement with my comments on this thread and just want to be nasty. Alrighty then.

          • Ray in VT

            You’re just a very poor person to speak regarding factual accuracy, contextualizing statements and accurate quotes.

          • Ray in VT

            Actually, I should amend my comment regarding that first statement. My contention would be that you are more likely to reached whacked out conclusions using questionable or flat out wrong “facts”.

          • Don_B1

            Says the major propagandist on this program blog!

            “Truth be dammed” is your motto!

          • keltcrusader

            pot meet kettle

          • Don_B1

            Exactly what happens when the right side of his brain communicates with the left side, or vice versa.

    • OnPointComments

      Using your argument about IRS audits, just because there was a gun doesn’t mean that the person wouldn’t have been killed anyway.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Where is the evidence?

        She needs to show it.

      • hennorama

        OPC – nice try, but only partly correct. Please also note I made no case whatsoever about firearms, and simply compared two figures that seemed surprising when compared.

        In the same way that higher income correlates with higher audit rates, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, “Where there are more guns there is more homicide” and “Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide.”

        See:
        http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/
        https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/risk/

        In the case of those who died from gunshot wounds, there is a clear and direct cause and effect relationship: Gunshot wound —> death.

        That is not at all the case with audits. Some are random, some are triggered by inconsistencies between information the IRS has access to vs. what is on the tax return (W-2 data, 1099s, etc.), and some are based on other factors, such as one’s occupation or business sector, and tips from informants.

        Thank you for your response.

  • John_in_Amherst

    Numerous compromises were made w/ the GOP to pass Obamacare. NO MORE! ACA is a done deal, and the legislative blackmail being attempted by the teabaggers is treasonous.

    • William

      Unions are saying ACA will “destroy the very health and wellbeing of workers” . These people are not TP members! How can Obama toss our brothers and sisters down the drain!!!!

      http://www.pnhp.org/news/2013/july/union-leaders-taft-hartley-plans-at-risk-under-aca

      • John_in_Amherst

        Unions are bent out of shape for a few reasons. there is worry over the “cadillac plans” that offer extremely generous coverage but are threatened by the ACA regs. There is also concern about union plans which have excessive costs (administrative overhead, in which more than 20% of premiums go for administrative costs – some of these issues have resulted in waivers for implementation to ease compliance). There is also concern that now that the ACA is law, companies will eliminate coverage as a benefit. All this union displeasure undercuts the argument that Obama is just pandering to his base with the ACA and waivers.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Sr. admin official: “We are winning…It doesn’t really matter to us” how long the shutdown lasts “because what matters is the end result.”

    Really? That is why they are keeping the Gov. shut and not negotiating?

    The GOP latest offer is so weak this is now 100% on the Dems.

    I suspect this is about Obama looking so weak on Syria and with Putin that he can’t afford to look ‘weak’ with the GOP. Really? He needs to fire these clown advisers immediately.

    • anamaria23

      Actually the President was the only one among nations that was strong on Syria and got us where we are with them so far and did not let his ego get in the way of adjusting to the situation as it arose.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Hahahahahaha!!!!

        I needed a chuckle this morning.

        Thanks so much for that!!

      • hennorama

        anamaria23 – I agree (reward below). Pres. Obama was channeling Pres. Theodore Roosevelt.

        • HonestDebate1

          Did Teddy pass on the chance to prevent 800,000 deaths in Syria?

          Obama spoke loudly and had no stick.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, Eh? — 800,000 deaths in Syria? Please cite your sources and methods, sir.

            If you support direct US military intervention in the Syrian religious civil war, please state your position.

            For some reason, the word “dipstick” comes to mind. Perhaps I need to check the oil level in one of my vehicles …

          • HonestDebate1

            See the link directly above your comment in my reply to Anamaria.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, Eh? — yet another miss of the obvious.

            Unlike you, other zeroes have significance.

          • HonestDebate1

            Huh?

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test – such eloquent cluelessness.

            Please allow a presentation of other facts, and a comparison of those facts that I find interesting.

            QUESTION: Which is the larger figure, the “800,000 deaths in Syria,” you wrote about in your post, and which I questioned, or the “80,000 lives” from the article to which you linked in your prior naked link post?

            ANSWER: You have NO CLUE.

            BTW, I’m glad that I checked the DIPSTICK on one of my vehicles, as the amount of oil visible on it was ZERO.

          • HonestDebate1

            Oops sorry, 80k is nothing. Nothing at all.

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test — what breathtaking callousness, on top of breathtaking cluelessness.

          • HonestDebate1

            Just trying to crystalize your point. Do you have one?

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test – allow me to further simplify my already simple comment:

            We’ll break the comment into parts, then explain each, OK? Pay attention please, and sit up straight.

            Part One: [what breathtaking callousness]

            – this refers to you having written “80k is nothing. Nothing at all.” Your words were a clear reference to the “80,000 lives” (read as “80,000 DEATHS”) from the article to which you linked in a prior post.

            This dismissal of 80,000 DEATHS as “nothing. Nothing at all” is both breathtaking and callous.

            “breathtaking” is an adjective that in this usage means “astonishing: causing a feeling of great surprise or wonder.”

            “callous” is an adjective that means “not feeling or showing any concern about the problems or suffering of other people,” and “callousness” is the state of being callous.

            End of Part One.

            Part Two: [on top of breathtaking cluelessness]

            “on top off” here means “in addition to” and the context means “compounding your earlier error.”

            “breathtaking” was defined above.

            “cluelessness” means “the state of being clueless,” and “clueless” is an adjective that means “unable to understand something.”

            End of Part Two.

            Part Three: putting it all together – [what breathtaking callousness, on top of breathtaking cluelessness]

            You dismissed the deaths of 80,000 people as “nothing. Nothing at all” which shows that you lack any concern about the suffering and deaths of 80,000 people. You did this after your earlier error about the number of people involved, which both compounded and highlighted your earlier simple error. You were completely unable to understand that you had even made the earlier simple error, despite your erroneous words having been questioned.

            In sum, your words indicate that you are both uncaring and unthinking.

            End of Part Three.

            End of Comment.
            EOL.
            CR.

          • HonestDebate1

            Bizarre.

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you realize how much you beat round the bush? Dial back the cutsieness and just say it.

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test – writ and done, said and fun.

      • HonestDebate1
  • Coastghost

    Democrats “gave” us wholesale enlargement of Federal responsibility with the Affordable Care Tax Act. Republicans are calling for wholesale reductions in the scale and scope of overweening Federalism.
    I am no Republican, but my anti-Federal sympathies are with them, for the time being: Democrats remain deaf to appeals to reduce the scale and scope of Federal ambitions to manage our lives for us cradle-to-grave and to cut out all the philanthropic gift-giving that comes of all the shell gaming that goes on in DC.

    • John_in_Amherst

      care to comment on the GOP insisting it has the right to interfere with people’s choices around sex?

      • Coastghost

        Are you referring to the DOMA legislation signed into law by President Clinton?

    • Denis

      What does “Democrats “gave” us wholesale enlargement of Federal responsibility with the Affordable Care Tax Act. “actually mean? What federal responsibility are you referring to? is it about the citizenry’s individual responsibility to be insured so fellow citizens do not have to pay for the slackers hospital visits? Is it about the citizen and their doctor making medical decisions instead of an insurance bureaucrat.

      • Coastghost

        The history of insurance in America that I’m familiar with is based entirely on voluntarism, on free choice and election to participate. ACTA is coercive and obligatory upon all, with penalties imposed upon all who choose not to participate by paying premiums into the system.
        The Federal government has no Constitutional obligation to offer or provide health insurance coverage to Americans: just as the Federal government has no responsibility to provide abortion services for citizens freely engaging in promiscuous sexual activity.
        Citizens exercise their liberty without State sanction and approval, or they do not. Me myself, I vastly prefer keeping the Federal government out of my life as much as possible, since I observe that to be the gist of what the Constitution enunciates. (Perhaps we should insist that all media outlets regulated and overseen by the FCC should devote an hour of public service programming each day to Constitutional history and jurisprudential theory.)

  • David Zuckerman

    One possible solution would be for congressional House Democrats to offer to Boehner that they would vote for him for speaker (along with a handful of moderate Republicans) IF he will bring a clean CR and debt ceiling bills to the floor and gets them passed with reasonable Republicans and the Democrats. Obviously that means from now on he would need to work with the Democrats. But what that also means is it will give Boehner a decision to make, be ruled by the Tea Party folks or rule in a reasonable manner with people from all parties.

    • OnPointComments

      Why did President Obama illegally change a law passed by Congress to delay the employer mandate? Why won’t he allow the same delay for individuals? Allowing the same delay for individuals that Obama gave to employers would seem to be a perfect compromise to get past this impasse.

      • David Zuckerman

        There are two different issues here. One is adjustments to “Obamacare” the other is running our government. I am a lawmaker in Vermont. While it is true that one can hold just about any legislation hostage for other unrelated pieces, it is not the way that we have tended to do business in our state, nor do I think it is the way to run an effective Government.

        If changes are to be made to “Obamacare” then that is what bills are for. While I get the frustration by the right wing that the Senate and President are not making the changes that they want, they need to work harder to win more elections. It is quite clear from the last election (which was in part, a voter mandate on “Obamacare” that in fact, the majority of Americans voted for it. The only body that did not get elected supporting it was the House. And in that body, the actual vote totals were that more people voted for Democrats, but that due to gerrymandering, more Republicans were elected.

        So it is understandable that the Senate (not gerrymandered) and the President are not interested in changing “Obamacare”. But the Government should not be shut down by a fraction of a party. But their threat to Speaker Boehner is what is causing this. The solution I presented above allows our government to function properly and allows Mr. Boehner to keep his speakership.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          You didn’t address the fact that President Obama illegally changed Obamacare 19 times unilaterally — without going to Congress for the changes he wanted. He never even tried.

        • Labropotes

          Not to challenge your comment, I just want to say that Vermont has 61 times the influence in the Senate per resident than California. So though not gerrymandered, the Senate is not necessarily more representative of American opinion.

          • David Zuckerman

            However, when the actual votes for all races were tallied in the House, more were for Democrats than Republicans. I am actually a Progressive/Democrat. I am far from wed to the Democrats as many up here will attest. I work well with members from both the R and D party. What I was talking about was the actual vote. I would hazard a guess (I do not know) that if one tallies the populations of the votes for Democrats in the Senate races over the past 6 years vs. those for the Republicans it too would be a majority of Americans, but that is not a researched fact.

          • Labropotes

            The 46 Republicans in the senate represent 135.3 million, the 52 Democrats 177.0 million and the 2 independants 1 million Americans, being 2.9 million constituents per Republican senator, 3.4 million per Democratic senator and half a million per independent senator.

            Pretty skewed, even though Dem and Rep and Ind don’t tell it all by a long shot.

          • David Zuckerman

            Thank you for the info. I think that generally confirms my hypothesis, unless you read it otherwise?

  • Coastghost

    But come on, Tom: Obama has only one accomplishment to crow about legitimately, viz., Obamacare. The history of his two Administrations is also at stake.

    • John_in_Amherst

      the GOP declared, nearly from day one of his presidency that the primary goal of the GOP was to see Obama fail, and then fought him on every issue every inch of the way. NOTE that the GOP’s goal was not to make the country stronger, more stable, more respected, or to work with the Democrats to seek compromise, they stated their goal was to get Obama out. He was heckled by GOP house members from the floor of the house (unprecedented). Yet he still handled the economic catastrophe handed to him by the Bush administration, got us out of Iraq, killed Bin Laden and many of al Qaida’s leaders, etc. etc.

      Get your head out of your FOXhole.

      • Coastghost

        To appropriate Obama’s notorious quote to evaluate the list of accomplishments you attribute to him: “Obama didn’t make that (happen)”.

      • William

        Like Hillary said “What difference does it make?”

  • Guest

    I hope the Republican “Tea Party” self-destruct… i want the old GOP party back… which includes the Bob Doles, Eisenhowers, the Richard Russells… and not ignorant extremists.

    • rogger2

      I’m with you.

      I’m center right and I’ve got nobody to vote for.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Did you vote for Romney?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Dr. Ben Carson spoke up against Obama’s policies at a prayer breakfast.

    What did he get for his trouble? A partial IRS audit on some of his property. OK, that sounds a little chilling. It was his FIRST audit ever but maybe it was a coincidence.

    The IRS found nothing and he was given a clean bill BUT it didn’t end there. They then launched into a full audit. Usually, if you are clean in the prelim audit they don’t launch a full audit.

    This is the 1st amendment folks. Free speech. The IRS needs to be full investigated. They need to explain and justify the process they used to target Dr. Carson. This is VERY dangerous.

    • OnPointComments

      Bill O’Reilly said that he was audited for three years in a row. At the end of the 3rd audit, O’Reilly told the IRS that if he was audited again, he would sue the IRS for harassment. He hasn’t been audited since.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Yeah but that was under Clinton.

        Obama’s IRS would have drawn a red line and gone for the fourth audit.

    • HonestDebate1

      Not to take away from your most excellent point (I agree 100%) but speaking of Dr. Carson, I think his healthcare plan has a lot of merit.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Yes. Dr. Carson is a very smart and wise man.

    • hennorama

      WftC — big deal, and yet another trumped up non-story.

      There’s no evidence whatsoever, by Dr. Carson’s own admission, that this was anything more than a coincidence. From the article in the link:

      “When asked directly by O’Reilly if he was targeted because of his anti-Obama stance, Carson responded, “Well, whether that was the case or not, the fundamental issue here is that the freedom of our citizens is being threatened.”

      If he has a shred of evidence, where is it?

      Dr. Carson was a neurosurgeon, and likely had relatively high income. Statistically, those with higher incomes are audited at a higher rate that the overall audit rate.

      Per kiplinger.com:

      “the overall individual audit rate is about 1.03%, the odds increase dramatically for higher-income filers. 2012 IRS statistics show that people with incomes of $200,000 or higher had an audit rate of 3.70%, or one out of every 27 returns. Report $1 million or more of income? There’s a one-in-eight chance your return will be audited. The audit rate drops significantly for filers making less than $200,000: Less than 1% (0.94%) of such returns was audited during 2012, and the vast majority of these exams were conducted by mail.”

      See:
      http://www.kiplinger.com/article/taxes/T054-C000-S001-irs-audit-red-flags-the-dirty-dozen.html#jyyGJIKjlGLxxCbi.99

      • OnPointComments

        How many coincidences have to happen before it’s admitted that there is a cause? There are numerous stories about ardent Republicans being harassed by the IRS, DOL, EPA. Is there really any doubt that the IRS is being used as a weapon by the current administration?

        • hennorama

          OPC — anecdotes such as those of Dr. Carson and Mr. O’Reilly are interesting, but proof of nothing.

          Certainly you are aware of the audit rates for those with higher incomes.

          If there is evidence available, those involved should present it.

          • OnPointComments

            But there are news stories of people who have never been audited, who spoke out against the administration or its policies, and subsequently were audited, sometimes by multiple agencies. Speaking against the administration appears to be the triggering offense.

          • hennorama

            OPC — “…APPEARS to be the triggering offense.”

            Exactly.

            Again, If there is evidence available, those involved should present it.

            And if “Speaking against the administration” is a so-called “triggering offense,” then we would be hearing similar stories from many in this forum.

            I have not seen any such stories, have you?

          • OnPointComments

            Go read about Frank Vandersloot and his trials with government agencies.

          • hennorama

            OPC — I vaguely recall his appearances on various conservative “news” talk shows.

            Again, a high-income individual, and a business(es?) with significant income. Also known as “not a surprise.”

          • OnPointComments

            The sequence of events:

            1. Frank Vandersloot is a wealthy businessman. I believe he stated that he had never been audited until the following steps happened.

            2. Vandersloot becomes national co-chair of the Romney campaign and donates a large sum to Romney’s campaign.

            3. The Obama campaign lists Vandersloot’s name on its website, and belittles and smears Vandersloot.

            4. A private investigator, formerly an employee of Senate Democrats, is found digging into Vandersloot’s divorce records.

            5. Vandersloot is audited by the IRS and Department of Labor.

            6. Other Republicans listed on the Obama campaign website are audited after they were listed.

            Did President Obama order that the Republican donors be harassed by government agencies? I don’t think so. In my opinion, it’s more like the king saying of Thomas Becket “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

            Can I prove that the sequence of events aren’t a coincidence? No, but it seems suspicious and unlikely. As the saying goes, I was born at night, but it wasn’t last night.

          • hennorama

            OPC — TY for your response.

            Again, the fact that he has both high income and business(es?) with significant revenues greatly increases the likelihood of an audit or audits in any given year.

            Political speech works both ways, and opposition research on donors and members of presidential campaigns is de riguer.

            If Mr. Vandersloot and/or his businesses were selected for audit or other governmental reviews based solely on the fact that Mr. V was involved in the Romney campaign, that would indeed be outrageous.

            Please let everyone know when this is shown to be the case.

          • HonestDebate1

            I have a den of copperheads in my basement but there is no evidence they have caused harm to date so I have no interest at all in them despite their growing numbers.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, Eh? — Thank you for yet another nonsensical non sequitur.

          • HonestDebate1

            Think about it, it will come to you. Here’s a hint, many politicians are snakes.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            How can the victim possibly present the evidence?

            What is the IRS process? Shouldn’t they have to justify how auditees are selected.

            You appear way too trusting of big government.

          • hennorama

            WftC — Some audits are random, some are triggered by inconsistencies between information the IRS has access to vs. what is on the tax return (W-2 data, 1099s, etc.), and some are based on other factors, such as one’s occupation or business sector, and tips from informants.

            Calling someone who is audited a “victim” is a bit spurious.

            And Dr. Carson was not victimized in any way. As you wrote, “The IRS found nothing and he was given a clean bill…”

            AKA a non-story.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            How do you know how Dr. Carson was selected? Do you work for the IRS?

            It will only be a non story once the IRS process has been vetted.

          • hennorama

            WftC — I have no idea why Dr. Carson’s tax return(s) were selected for review, and have not said that I have any idea as to the reason, other than noting the correlation between higher incomes and higher audit rates.

            Dr. Carson indicated during his interview with Bill O’Reilly (per foxnews.com) that “…the Internal Revenue Service started looking into his real estate holdings…”

            Here’s part of an exchange from the video in the link below:

            O’Reilly: What did the IRS want?

            Dr. Carson: Well, they wanted to investigate some property, some investment property that I had.

            What precipitated the review is unclear, but it is likely that Dr. Carson knows, as notifications to the taxpayer generally indicate the subject/reason of the review.

            And no, I do not work for the IRS.

            See:
            http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/03/dr-ben-carson-says-irs-targeted-him-for-his-anti-obama-comments/

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            “And no, I do not work for the IRS.”

            Now that I think about Lois Lerner doesn’t work for the IRS either. Recently retired. So, you could still be Lois Lerner — the one with the $102K pension.

          • hennorama

            WftC — I am not Lois Lerner, and I am not now, nor have I ever been, employed by the IRS or any Federal, State or Local government, agency, or entity.

            Hope that clears things up for you.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Dr. Carson said he does not know why they initiated a full audit AFTER he was cleared in the first audit. Apparently this is highly unusual according to his civil rights attorney who was interviewed this morning.

          • hennorama

            WftC — Entries on one year’s tax return(s) are often dependent on prior year tax returns. As such, a single tax year’s audit leading to a multi-year audit is not “highly unusual.”

            For example, a state tax refund can be taxable on the Federal tax return if the taxpayer deducted state income taxes paid in the prior year. In addition, investment real estate can generate loss carryovers, and various deductions, especially for depreciation, can only be properly calculated if determined correctly when the investment real estate was first placed in service.

            Thank you for your interest and your response.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Reading comprehension alert.

            It is unusual for additional audits if the first audit is ‘clean’. Sure, if there are irregularities then extended audits make sense.

            Dr. Carson’s first audit was ‘clean’ according to his lawyer.

          • hennorama

            WftC – TY again for your interest and response.

            I understood what you wrote, and simply disagree.

            Please provide data to support what you wrote, that “Apparently this is highly unusual according to his civil rights attorney who was interviewed this morning,” assuming any such data is available.

            I must say that engaging a “civil rights attorney” related to what seem to be a non-controversial audit circumstance looks like Dr. Carson is far more interested in publicity than resolving any actual damage.

            Thanks again for your response.

      • HonestDebate1

        That assumption requires a willing suspension of disbelief.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        If YOU spoke up against the policies of a GOP regime and then you were audited I believe you would consider it — as Joe ‘the Joker’ Biden would say — big f’n deal.

        We need oversight and transparency here. Personally, I’d like to see the IRS abolished but oversight and investigation is the bare minimum.

        • HonestDebate1

          And they are enforcing Obamacare, what could go wrong?

        • hennorama

          WftC — repeating:

          There’s no evidence whatsoever, by Dr. Carson’s own admission, that this was anything more than a coincidence.

          If he has a shred of evidence, where is it?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            You are repeating yourself again.

            Are you against transparency and oversight?

            This reminds me of the voter fraud debate. “There is no evidence of fraud”
            Duh? Because the Dems have blocked every common sense mechanism to track fraud.

          • hennorama

            WftC — two events that occur sequentially is a correlation. That is all that this non-story amounts to.

            Just this morning, the sun rose, and an automobile then drove past my house.

            Did the sun rising cause the automobile to be driven past my home? Should we investigate? Why is the sun harassing me this way? Who was the driver? The vehicle was red. Should we investigate red vehicles?

            This is a non-story.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            How do you KNOW this is a non-story?

            Where is your evidence?

            You can’t possibly KNOW this is a non-story unless you work for the IRS and know the details of Dr. Carson’s case.

            See how that works.

          • Denis

            I have not been on this site for many months. Now it all comes back why your logic [or lack thereof] and refusal to support your position with facts really does make me worried for the country.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Not my problem. It is yours my friend.

            If you want to trust the Government to not abuse the 1st amendment that is your right. I believe in transparency.

          • TFRX

            He doesn’t need a shred of evidence. He has fluffers who can freak out for him. THe way this is set up, Carson even can go on a Fox program and “insist” that “I’m not being targeted”* and the baking-soda volcano of poutrage will erupt anyway.

            (*This is not something I’ve seen Dr. Carson say or not say. I’m just using a hypothetical example of how a right-wing target/martyr doesn’t need to even claim wrongdoing by the Administration for the story to become “fact” to some people.)

          • hennorama

            TFRX — freaky poutrageous fluffers – there’s a term I shan’t be defining anytime soon.

            Thanks for your response.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Lois Lerner, is that you?

    • jimino

      Since much of his income comes from taxpayer dollars or taxpayer-subsidized entities, are you proposing that we prohibit accountability by and oversight of those who receive massive amounts of income from these sources?

      • HonestDebate1

        He was in practice for decades, maybe they should have audited him before the prayer breakfast.

  • toc1234

    “This is simply untrue. Consider the shenanigans of congressional Democrats in 1989 over Medicare’s catastrophic health coverage provision.

    In this case, the problem was political infighting within the Democratic Party between the House and the Senate. “Weeks of political maneuvering brought the government to the brink of financial default,” the New York Times wrote on Nov. 8 of that year. The debt limit was raised just hours before all extraordinary measures to avoid default were exhausted. The final bill dropped any action on Medicare but included a measure to repeal 1986 tax rules barring discrimination in employer-paid health insurance plans.”

  • http://www.skeeterbitesreport.com SkeeterVT

    The time has come for the Republicans to be read the riot act, for they are on the brink of crossing a constitutional red line.

    If the House Republicans refuse to raise the debt ceiling — and the federal government defaults as a result, then they will have committed an illegal act. Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment PROHIBITS the federal government from defaulting on its debt obligations.

    So ruled the U.S. Supreme Court in 1935. The justices declared that Section 4 applied to ALL debts incurred by the federal government, not just those incurred during the Civil War.

    Whether the Republicans — especially the Tea Party faction in the House — like it or not, the United States government MUST pay its debts — no ifs, ands or buts. A federal government debt default is illegal under the Constitution — and the House Republicans will effectively violate the Constitution if they do not raise the debt ceiling.

    • OnPointComments

      An excellent article with many facts.

      WHO SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT?
      http://www.creators.com/opinio

      Excerpt:
      The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare. This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

      The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for ObamaCare.

      If Senator Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run ObamaCare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

      Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

    • Labropotes

      The Obama administration disagrees with you that the 14th amendment obligates/permits overriding congress on the debt ceiling.

      • http://www.skeeterbitesreport.com SkeeterVT

        “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. . .”

        – Fourteenth Amendment, Section Four

        * * *

        “There is a clear distinction between the power of the Congress to control or interdict the contracts of private parties when they interfere with the exercise of its constitutional authority [294 U.S. 330, 351] and the power of the Congress to alter or repudiate the substance of its own engagements when it has borrowed money under the authority which the Constitution confers. In authorizing the Congress to borrow money, the Constitution empowers the Congress to fix the amount to be borrowed and the terms of payment. By virtue of the power to borrow money ‘on the credit of the United States,’ the Congress is authorized to pledge that credit as an assurance of payment as stipulated, as the highest assurance the government can give, its plighted faith. To say that the Congress may withdraw or ignore that pledge is to assume that the Constitution contemplates a vain promise; a pledge having no other sanction than the pleasure and convenience of the pledgor. This Court has given no sanction to such a conception of the obligations of our government.”

        – U.S. Supreme Court ruling in “Perry v. United States,” February 18, 1935

        * * *

        The Obama administration is DEAD WRONG on the constitutional obligation of the United States government to meet its debt obligations. Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment is quite clear — and the Supreme Court concurred.

        • Labropotes

          There is a difference between not paying a debt and refuting it. The purpose of that wording was to prevent creditors to the rebel states being stiffed. Like I said, Obama the constitutional scholar disagrees with you.

          • http://www.skeeterbitesreport.com SkeeterVT

            You STILL don’t get it. The Supreme Court ruled in 1935 that Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment applies to ALL DEBTS agreed to by the federal government, authorized by Congress, NOT ONLY the former confederate states. Once Congress agrees to pay a debt, it cannot get out of it.

    • Buster1

      Skeeter if Obama could pass a budget he would keep the republicans chained to the porch. Its simple hea has failed to do the job five years in a row and wants to usurp the power of the purse by using emergency funding acts They failed to pass a budget and find agreement it is the root of the problem. Lurching from one failed budget to the next lets loose the dogs of hell.

      • http://www.skeeterbitesreport.com SkeeterVT

        Congress failed to do its job for five years in a row because of partisan intransigence by both parties. Congress holds the power of the federal purse under the Constitution, but the budget is one thing, and the debt is something else entirely.

        The Constitution prohibits the federal government from defaulting on its debts — and if Congress won’t live up to its responsibility to ensure that the federal government pay its debts that Congress had already approved and promised to pay, then the president has no choice but to do so through executive action.

        The Constitution is the supreme law of this country (Article VI, Section 2). What part of “unconstitutional” and “illegal” do you not understand?

    • fun bobby

      those redlines have been working out so great why not draw another? the pubs have already said they would not oppose increasing our debt ceiling

  • http://www.facebook.com/lee.mortimer.315 Lee Mortimer

    What if Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats agreed to support Boehner for Speaker if the Tea Party faction tried to remove him if he allowed a clean CR to be passed with Democrat and Republican votes. Democrats have nothing to lose since they can’t elect a Speaker as long as they are in the minority.

  • rogger2

    I’m with Peter King here.

    At this point, I can’t seem to understand our strategy.

  • GeorgeHewes

    When Obama arrived, each US man woman and child (even those making $2,000 per year) was responsible for about $32,000 in federal debt; so a family of 4 owed over $120,000. When Obama leaves that family of 4 will not have paid anything down, but will instead owe well over $200,000 (again, including the very poor families, meaning the middle class would really owe something over $300,000 per household on this debt.) How much do you owe on your home? The healthcare program is also being financed by this debt.

    Sadly, it sounds likely that history will show that the TEA Party groups were desperately trying to avoid our next civil war, economic collapse, and worse.

    If you try to look up census data today you will see one good reason to get rid of as much government funded programs as possible, they can’t even maintain their website for an extra day without throwing money at it. A non-profit would absolutely do better, cheaper, faster, and more dependably.

  • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

    FTA:
    According to State House News Service, Gov. Deval Patrick opined, “I think Tea Party Republicans are playing a big game with little people and I hope God forgives them for that, but I hope voters won’t.” Hmmm, where to begin …. It is clear that this tactic is about using powerful rhetoric to work people up into a lather; people who wouldn’t otherwise notice the shutdown. It’s about bringing on the hurt and gaining sympathy so they can blame the other side. It’s about videotaping eight-year-olds giving the “thumbs down” to the shutdown, when they wouldn’t know a government shutdown if it crawled out of their chicken nuggets. –

    See more at: http://greaterbostonteaparty.com/?p=2150#sthash.bd0cVpYu.dpuf

    • fun bobby

      wow devil is really laying it on thick. that same guy thinks casinos don’t harm poor people who can ill afford it.

  • Coastghost

    What was the ACTUAL story coming out of California: did five million people apply online, or did only a scant half-million visit five million pages or sites? LOTS of misinformation and disinformation to make the Affordable Care Tax Act look like the Palatable Care Tax Act.

  • Ed75

    Right now on EWTN there is a children’s worldwide Eucharistic prayer, very good.

  • toc1234

    ie they need to get the healthy people to overpay.

    • AC

      because they’ll be young and healthy forever?? i want to pray to their god, can you tell me who it is?

      • toc1234

        Ponce de Leon

        • AC

          lol

      • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

        The land of Tír na nÓg

        • AC

          directions?

          • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

            My grandfather knew the way, but grandma wouldn’t go. He stayed with her and went to his reward without telling.

          • AC

            :(

        • keltcrusader

          I’m not sure the Tuatha De Danann will let them in

      • Labropotes

        AC, you’re right that young people might make irrational decisions, but isn’t that their right?

        And is not buying into the ACA irrational? The young could be charged the “correct” cost for their “insurance,” being the actual expected medical costs plus administration. Instead we call on them to pay a few times the fair price so that people (the old) who are on average much wealthier then the young can pay less. Hmm.

        I propose that each American can get free health care as an old person or can let his kids inherit his property when he dies. Not both.

      • OnPointComments

        Just because something may be a good idea doesn’t mean it should be mandatory. It’s called freedom.

        • AC

          freedom from what? being part of a civilized society?

          • Labropotes

            Freedom from being forced to spend my production according to your priorities.

          • AC

            i hope Christ/Karma is willing to overlook this for you….
            good luck buddy

          • jefe68

            It’s called being part of a civil society.
            It’s amazing how immature libertarians are.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Is name calling immature too?

          • HonestDebate1

            Click his profile and read his comments. It’s all he has. And BTW, you can do the same any day of the week and get the same result.

          • jefe68

            Click on yours and see the inanity.

          • jefe68

            Calling people idiots is warranted when they are clearly idiots. As I’ll do now.
            You make a lot inane comments.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            You can’t help yourself, eh?

        • fun bobby

          if its really a good idea people will do it without being forced. liberals believe a $25 dollar fine is a better reason to wear a seatbelt than the risk of death

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      SS and Medicare were built on the young overpaying.

      At some point demographic changes will catch up to you. It is not sustainable.

      • hennorama

        WftC — if this is the problem, the answer is simple:

        Increased immigration.

        According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS):

        “In 2012, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 66.3 percent, compared with 63.2 percent for the native born. The labor force participation rate was 78.5 percent for foreign-born men and 68.6 percent for native-born men. Among women, 54.8 percent of the foreign born were labor force participants, compared with 58.2 percent of the native born.”

        “Among the foreign born, the labor force participation rate for blacks was 70.6 percent in 2012, little different from the participation rate for Hispanics (69.0 percent). The participation rate for Asians was 64.7 percent, while that for whites was 60.1 percent. Among the native born, the labor force participation rates for Hispanics and whites were 63.9 percent and 63.7 percent, respectively, higher than the rates for Asians (61.5 percent) and blacks (60.0 percent). The labor force participation rates for foreign-born blacks, Asians, and Hispanics were higher than for their native-born counterparts, while the rate for foreign-born whites was lower than the rate for native-born whites.”

        Here are the 2012 LFPRs (Labor Force Participation Rates) of foreign-born workers in select age ranges:

        25 to 34 years: 76.1 percent
        35 to 44 years: 80.3 percent
        45 to 54 years: 80.1 percent

        See:
        http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

    • ChevSm

      That’s how all insurance works.

      It’s called risk pooling.

      • toc1234

        but the govt just made the pool riskier than what it was for healthy people (so now they need to pay more than they did in their old pool). furthermore, now you cant be turned down for insurance so I think a lot of young people will just wait unitl they need it. seems to be a lot of incentive for these people to not sign up…

  • Labropotes

    I believe that the woman shot in DC yesterday made a wrong turn and got freaked out.

    Here is a video that shows she did not ram the barrier at the White House. The second shows that the cop injured in a crash ran into a security barrier, not the Lexis. The security barrier is a metaphor for DHS and the cop car is our democracy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCLGnach_YQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MCu80iDid_Q

    • fun bobby

      its interesting that allegedly the Asian driver in new York bumped a biker and when the bikers then attacked the driver the bikers were wrong. a woman in dc bumped an officer so then they chased her down and shot her to death in front of her child but the media seems to say they are in the right.

  • MrNutso
  • Coastghost

    Why yes, Jack, we all want to become vassals of the State.

  • Labropotes

    That the ACA depends on young healthy people to make it affordable for old sick people — like me — means it is a wealth transfer mechanism from the young to the old. There must be something about parents eating their children in mythology or something.

    • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

      “However Gaia was upset with the very heavy-handed rule of Zeus, and so she cast a prophecy that any son of Zeus born by Metis would become stronger than him and eventually usurp his power. So when Metis became pregnant, Zeus was extremely fearful. How did he solve his problem? He swallowed Metis and her unborn child whole (like father like son).”

      http://www.godandgoddess.com/the-god-zeus.html

      • Labropotes

        Thank you RWB! Today Zeus could just make them tax slaves. That’s a civilized society for you!

    • John_in_Amherst

      insurance “transfers wealth” from the more fortunate to the less fortunate. Most people, sooner or later, are less fortunate. Perhaps you plan to go out with a nice quick heart attack or car crash, but do you want to count on that?

      • Labropotes

        I just want to be as free as possible without hurting others. I even want to help them in ways that I choose. Is there a contract I can sign that says don’t save me and don’t enslave me? You might think that’s crazy, but that’s how I want to live. Is there room for me?

        • John_in_Amherst

          and I abhor seeing people suffer sickness and starvation. So if you end up on the curb in front of the ER, where you just got kicked out because you have no coverage, tell me how to not see you.

          You no doubt feel that self-protection is the cornerstone of law and order, and therefor own a gun or two, right? But if the country is attacked, do you want America’s defense to be an armed public ? NO. You want a well armed and trained military. When you drive any distance, do you go in a tracked ATV that fords rivers, or do you want roads and bridges? Look, if you really want to go live in a cave, no one is stopping you.

          • Labropotes

            I live in a cabin and use a 12-volt battery to power a cell phone signal booster to connect to the internet. I will die alone in the woods. However, if you’d let the dog out and feed the chickens, I’d be much obliged.

            Until the ACA, my biggest big world problem was property taxes. Now I need to get another job to pay for insurance I do not intend to use. I’d be breaking the law you support if I don’t. Or I could lie, and get my insurance for free.

            Anyway, John, I have felt as you do. It’s a matter of where you draw the line. Over a tub of mulled cider, we’d likely find we agree on much.

          • fun bobby

            I bet people would help each other with government force.
            I want America’s defense to be an armed public. then we would not be subject to the MIC. we have 94 guns for every 100 Americans. what country is a threat to us? even hitler knew better than to ever imagine an invasion here. in fact some would argue that our armed populace is the last best hope for freedom

          • John_in_Amherst

            Fortress America, eh? So what happens if another power threatens to shut off a vital resource? Also, oceans aren’t the defense they once were. In this complex world with its interconnected industrial/technological economy insures that no single country can isolate itself. An 18th century defense strategy for the 21st century? good luck.

          • fun bobby

            what resource? are you saying we need our military complex to protect our access to foreign oil? maybe the lithium reserves in Afghanistan? coincidentally we discovered a huge domestic lithium deposit and began withdrawing from Afghanistan AKA the graveyard of empires. the concern you express is one that plagues all empires. is a trillion a year better spent to kill for oil or to try to produce domestic energy? How many solar panels could you buy for a trillion dollars each year? that’s funny about the oceans not being a defense. they are trying to sell us new ships for 4 billion a pop. it seems to me all of our military might could be counteracted by a clever enough individual with a laptop with all the technology these days. we are still fighting WW2 and the cold war and wasting a lot of those resources you want us to kill for. perhaps we need a cyber militia as well. despite all technology any foreign power who tried to put boots on the ground in America would fail spectacularly as long as we remain so well armed. we can’t even defeat a bunch of poor cave dwellers in Afghanistan with all of our technology. what do we really have to worry about?

      • chaionlife

        you will be OLD one day!

        • hennorama

          chaionlife — nice avatar.

  • MrNutso

    Molly, the deadline is March 31, 2014.

  • OnPointComments

    Your tax dollars (not) at work. You owe it to yourself to go to C-Span and listen to the congressional hearing about John Beale, the EPA analyst who stole nearly $1 million from the EPA. It’s fantastic, in the exorbitant/unbelievable sense of the word. Beale mostly didn’t show up for work for 13 years, including one 2-1/2 year stretch and another 1-1/2 year stretch, yet he still received his salary, raises, and bonuses.

    There are zero standards or controls over spending tax money. Expense reports are automatically approved without review or approval. If you’re a government employee and say you have a back problem, you get first class airline tickets at a cost of $14,000 per trip instead of $1,000. Lie and say you’re a Viet Nam vet, and the government buys you an $8,000 parking space (all the more outrageous because Beale wasn’t going to work anyway). Say that you’ve been offered a job in the private sector and you get a $28,000 retention bonus — for three years; Beale’s retention bonus was erroneously paid for six years. The EPA officials who testified at the hearing couldn’t definitively say that the same abuses weren’t occurring with other EPA employees.

    • jimino

      Was he the same guy who lost hundreds of billions in cash in Iraq? If not, whatever happened to him?

      • Ray in VT

        The buck stopped with him and heads totally rolled for all of the screw ups that happened both prior to and following the invasion.

    • jimino

      He got away with it because of his purported CIA connections, where secrecy and intimidation of anyone trying to find out the truth is an essential part of the program.

      • OnPointComments

        “Purported” is correct. It was all a lie. There was no secrecy and intimidation because Beale didn’t have any CIA connections.

  • Bruce94

    And just where does the Tea Party/GOP mandate to repeal or defund the ACA come from when you consider there is widespread support for most of the key provisions of the ACA? 60-88% of people polled recently by Kaiser Family Foundation say they like most of the initiatives in the ACA when they are asked specifically about each one. For example, there is overwhelming approval for requiring insurers to cover people with pre-existing conditions, for prohibiting insurance cos. from cancelling policies following sudden illness or accident, and for banning annual or lifetime benefit caps. However, only 37% polled say they like the law itself, while 43% disapprove of it.

    The data reveals that the major factor in the low approval rating is that the majority of people surveyed say they don’t have enough info. to determine how the new law will affect them. Another factor is resistance to the individual mandate. Even though its constitutionality was upheld, right-wing critics of the ACA continue their relentless attack on the ACA based on this provision even though this provision is essential for insurance cos. to acquire the wherewithal to implement the aforementioned reforms which are favored by people on both ends of the political spectrum. The individual mandate enables insurers to ban exclusions for pre-existing conditions, annual and lifetime benefit caps and rescissions due to illness without going bankrupt.

    It would seem that many critics of the individual mandate, who applaud the insurance reforms and benefits listed above, just don’t have a clue as to how to pay for them. They suffer from what I term the right-wing free-lunch syndrome including the delusion that we can extend healthcare coverage to approx. 30 million previously uninsured Americans without greatly increasing the risk pool, raising revenues and expanding government, that is to say, without paying for it.

    Here’s a breakdown of the KFF study.

    Percent who feel favorable about the following elements of the ACA:

    Tax credits to sm. businesses88%
    Close Medicare “doughnut hole”

    • jimino

      You are absolutely correct. The “elephant is the room” (without which the Republicans literally have no rational argument whatsoever) is that a significant majority support the provisions of the ACA. The claim that polls indicate they don’t like Obamacare is more a measure of the ignorance of our populace than a an accurate poll of their beliefs.

    • William

      If it is so great why are the unions not supporting it? Why did Obama have to give Congress a exemption and pay 72 percent of their costs? Why is the business mandate in place but nothing for individuals?

    • hennorama

      Bruce94 – Excellent post and source. Very well done.

      In response to your questions, please consider three truisms:

      People are not stupid, but are generally ignorant.

      People often vote against their own self-interest.

      There’s a sucker born every minute.

      Supplementing H. L. Mencken – Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste[, ignorance, and gullibility] of the American public.

      Quotation source:
      http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hlmencke137243.html#4bJjPvF4itltH70q.99

  • JONBOSTON

    For those that parrot our most awful president’s line that Obamacare is “settled ” law since it passed both houses of Congress, obtained his signature and was upheld by the SCOTUS, please explain how that jives with Obama’s having changed Obamacare fives times since its passage , most especially the one year suspension of the employer mandate.
    For those no information types that frequently post here, Article 1 of the Constitution ( it’s a document created many years ago by community organizing types like Obama) grants the legislative power to amend laws entirely to Congress. What is the constitutional basis for Obama’s unlateral actions to amend Obamacare 5 times? Again–for the many no information types on the left, we have three co-equal branches of government . You can look it up if you don’t believe me.

    • John_in_Amherst

      there are six different types of waivers, and most are to enable an easier transition to the ACA guidelines around the permissible % of administrative overhead charged to workers, etc. In several instances waivers have NOT been granted to unions, for various reasons, which has pissed them off. so much for Obama twisting the law to woo his base.

      • JONBOSTON

        Your justifying his actions– better you identify the constitutional authority that supports Obama’s unilateral actions. The law specifically requires that the employer mandate starts January 1, 2014 and that Congress and their staff were bound by Obamacare . But hey, it makes for an “easier transition” so who cares about that! I thought only kings, despots and tyrants did stuff like that.
        Do you even know why the employer mandate was suspended? Probably not- it was to avoid a likely parade of large emplyers dropping health insurance coverage before the 2014 elections , thereby making for an “easier transition ” for Democrats facing re-election.

        • Ray in VT

          The Treasury Department cited authority under a part of the CFR to make such changes regarding the implementation of a new regulation and cited examples of when it had been done by previous administrations, including the previous one. I wonder why so many on the right weren’t screaming about George W. Bush’s administration taking that action?

          • JONBOSTON

            see my comments above to Northeaster17.

          • Ray in VT

            Why? Are you rejecting that legality of such a move? If so, then did you take to the streets when W. did it?

          • JONBOSTON

            The Treasury dept only has the authority delegated to it by Congress under the statute in question and under the ACA it has no such authority.
            I have no idea what W actions you refer to and question what relevance it has to Treasury’s authority under the ACA.

          • Ray in VT

            Says you? Well, I’m glad that that is all settled.

            The treasury department certainly has authority in many areas, and they say that the decision in question is in line with some previous ones regarding the implementation of new regulations and their legal ability to allow for delays in implementation under certain conditions. The relevance has to do with just such a similar case, and my question merely asks the question as to why certain people didn’t throw up the barricades last time. I highly suspect that politics has a great deal to do with it.

          • HonestDebate1

            Says you.

          • Ray in VT

            Says the Treasury Department.

          • JONBOSTON

            You know nothing about which you speak. I’ve defended cases before the first , second , and ninth federal circuits over regulations promulgated by DOE , the FTC , and EPA.

          • Ray in VT

            True, in the case I am looking at what the Treasury has cited it can do via the CFR and in light of existing precedent, although if you claim to have knowledge of this situation, and anyone can be a French model on the Internet, then why did you not originally make some citations as to where you thought that there were specific legal issues, instead of going to the favored right-wing lines of Obama the unilateral king and whatever, for instance by citing the rationale for the delay, which I have yet to ever see an opponent of the President on here do, and then addressing it from there.

            I am, like with many other things, willing to wait this one out and see how things shake out.

          • JONBOSTON

            Ariticle II of the Constitution, Section 3 requires the president to faifhfully execute the Laws of the US.This provision was included to make sure that the president could not simply choose, as the British king had, to cancel legislation simply because he disagreed with it. Ergo my reference to Obama as king. Obama cannot refuse to carry out a congressional statute simply because he thinks it advances the wrong policy.To do so violates the very core of his constitutional duties. When you consider his illegal recess appointments , blanket amnesty program , and outrageous usurpation of federal bankruptcy laws in the GM and Chysler bankruptcies, one can argue with some justification that his is a lawless presidency.
            That is why I have nothing but contempt for Obama. He appeals to the worst instincts of his core constituency. For someone who was elected in 2008 on the hope of bringing the country together, he’s made things exponentially worse. He forgets that he also represents roughly half of this country that did not vote for him. He questions the motives and sincerity of those who in good faith oppose him . He is simply a very small man in a very big job and unfit to be president.
            BTW, you seem to hold great stock in the “CFR” . The code of federal regulations is merely the federal government’s vehicle for official public notices , etc. Government agencies are delegated powers by their governing statutes and promulgate regulations in accordance with the federal administative procedures act.

          • HonestDebate1

            These vacuous arguments are funny. Let’s imagine, as you have imagined with Jon, Bush did the same thing and I supported it 100% making me the biggest hypocrite this side of the Mississippi. What does that have to do with Obama? Other than distracting to defend him.

          • Ray in VT

            If we want to talk vacuous arguments, then we could talk about the extremely vacuous nature of many of your comments, with your poor sources, bad quotes and just not believing points raised by others which cite research.

            I am not particularly defending anyone. I have largely cited how the administration has stated how it has the authority to do what it has done.

            What I am doing is attempting to battle the sort of blatant, rampant hypocrisy that I do often see from of the more vehement right wingers on here. I dislike hypocrisy, and I think that it is very relevant to one’s standing, of course, if one is willing to stand by a blatant lie even regarding what is clearly printed in the dictionary, then one probably does not care much about being a hypocrite. Indeed, one such person could probably just lie to themselves and consider themselves to be an honest broker. Like with Libya, where Obama critics mindlessly jumped to the unconstitutional meme, calling them out to point out where Reagan did the same thing is not distracting and defending a particular action. It is more like saying that one guy shouldn’t get arrested for going through a yellow light where another does not, because that is something that one is allowed to do.

        • jefe68

          Well that’s as obvious as this guys regressive posts, it suited there agenda.

      • fun bobby

        why? is he running again?

      • fun bobby

        only 6?

    • MrNutso

      Your post doesn’t make sense. George W. Bush hasn’t been president in almost 5 years.

      • JONBOSTON

        MrNutso–Very apt description

    • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

      Is Voter ID settled law?
      What other issues are settled law?

      • JONBOSTON

        See Crawford vs. Marion County Election Board ( April 28, 2008) ; US Supreme court decison upholding Indiana’s voter ID law. In a decision written by Justice John Paul Stevens , now retired but then one of the most liberal justices on the SCOTUS, the Court upheld Indiana’s law that required a voter to present a photo as part of an unexpired document issued either by Indiana or the federal govt, a requirement that in most cases required a current driver’s license or passport. At the time of the decision , Indiana’s law was the strictest voter ID law in the US.

    • northeaster17

      It’s one thing to change the law with hostile intent. Congress has proved this intent many many times.
      It is another to change the law to make it’s implementation easier. That should be done.
      Why would the president bargin with those holding a poison pill?
      As far as your lefty no information types b.s. The three co-equal branches created the law. Now we have a very small sector of our congress trying to hold the rest of us hostage. Over that same law.
      For you baggers that seems ok. But for the majority of the country it’s b.s.
      The only thing good about this shut down is watching the right dig it’s own ditch to oblivian.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        ‘hostile intent’?

        Protecting the American people from an unpopular law that was passed in an ugly way and is clearly not ready for prime time is not hostile intent.

      • JONBOSTON

        When the Obama administration announced that it would delay the implementation of Obamacare’s employer mandate there was even some Democratic skepticism about whether Obama’s move was legal. According to the New York Times , Democrat Senator Tom Harkin , an author of the health law and the top Democrat on the Senate Health, Education Labor, and Pension Committee stated “This was the law. How can they change the law?” . Section 1513(d) of the law , which governs the employer mandate, states clearly that the mandate takes effect January 1, 2014. Moreover , per the ACA ,Treasury has NO authority to grant any waivers of the employer mandate until 2017 and that deals with waivers of penalties and if a state has enacted an alternate but equally expansive coverage scheme that does not add to the federal cost . Nor does the law give Treasury the authority to delay the law’s employer reporting requirements.
        Best advice I can give you is to turn off MSNBC, do some reading of the ACA and a basic poly sci textbook, and educate yourself about the law and our political and legislative process. You can’t be as dumb as you sound..

  • MrStang

    America is tired of these tin-pot tea kettle republicans pissing all over the floor and blaming everyone but themselves. Liars. Even their donors are deserting. They don’t know what they want. duhObamacare..ahhhdeficits…duhyeah more tax cuts for rich people. They just act out like 2 year olds. or scheming wormtongues.

    Should America suffer because the Koch brothers put a bunch of vile morons in office in 2010?

    • fun bobby

      Bloomberg is working on his own batch of vile morons

      • John_in_Amherst

        AKA all those kooks who want to limit military weapons to the military…

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          No, not just to the military but also their private security staff.

          • anamaria23

            No, the troubled, mentally ill and criminals get no guns. All else will keep their guns.

          • hennorama

            anamaria23 — if only it were the case that “the troubled, mentally ill and criminals get no guns.”

          • fun bobby

            that is in fact the current law

          • fun bobby

            no one has a problem with that. background checks are not a viable way to achieve that.

          • fun bobby

            that ought to keep the elite safe no matter how poorly they treat us

        • fun bobby

          what you are saying does not really make sense but they have all kinds of ideas about what you( assuming you are not a wealthy elite) are to stupid to do or buy. like soda

    • StilllHere

      Oh no, the Koch’s. There must be a lot of them, so many votes!

    • William

      Are you concerned Obama and the Democrats tripped over themselves to put the MB into power in Egypt but call the Republicans and TP members terrorists?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    What’s going on?

    Tom didn’t mention the new IPCC report. Why?

    • HonestDebate1

      Maybe because climate change is no longer an issue?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Ah, the inconvenient truth.

        But shouldn’t it be reason to celebrate?

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Certainly, in the righty alt universe where ideology can remove physics.

        • nj_v2

          DishonestMisDebatorGreggg lives in an alternate universe.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          We are now 95% certain that warmism is a religion based on pseodo-science and flawed computer models.

  • Bruce94

    “We’re not going to be disrespected,” Rep. Marlin
    Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. “We have to get something out of this [government shutdown]. And I don’t know what that even is.”

    To paraphrase Gov. Bobby Jindal (R-LA): if they’re not careful,
    the Tea Party/GOP could become the “stupid Party.” This from the Gov. of a State that has rejected Medicaid expansion under the ACA and has the nation’s fourth highest
    rate of uninsured. But, hey, I think Rep. Stutzman has taken the “stupid Party” to another level.

    Come to think of it, how does the President or the Dems
    negotiate with the leadership of a Party that is so fractured that it can’t decide whether it wants to be led by a coalition of the stupid and inane or the stupid and insane?

    • hennorama

      Bruce94 — “And I don’t know what that even is” is an instant cluelessness classic.

      • Bruce94

        As Bob “Come on Down” Barker used to implore Johnny Olson: “And what has our clueless contestant from Indiana won?” Or, more likely “What consolation prize do we have for the Hoosier Loser?”

        Didya catch Colbert’s take?

        http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429520/october-03-2013/government-shutdown-day-three

        • hennorama

          Bruce94 — yes, as always, Stephen Colbert was spot on.

          Speaking of Bob Barker, I seem to recall watching his prior hosting gig, ‘Truth or Consequences,’ when a contest correctly answered the question “What’s a paradox?”

          Answer: Two doctors.

          Thanks for your response.

          • Bruce94

            I wonder if the contestant was related to Groucho Marx who once remarked “I’m not feeling well – I need a doctor immediately, ring the nearest golf course.”

          • hennorama

            Bruce94 — in the book ‘Priceless Memories,’ Bob Barker indicated that if a T&C contestant answered a question correctly, it would be discovered that it was actually a two-part question, and only once in his hosting of T&C did any contestant ever answer the second part. Of course, the question then immediately became a three-parter.

            Thanks for your response, and the joke.

      • HonestDebate1

        Such a shallow analysis.

    • HonestDebate1

      The remark seems completely consistent to me. When the government shut down in ’95 the result was welfare reform and balanced budget that led to surpluses. The shutdown facilitated that outcome.

      So the government is shut down, should it all be for naught? Maybe we’ll get some real reform, maybe spending cuts. Maybe the citizens will get the same much needed relief from the Obamcare debacle that business and Congress got by decree. Maybe we’ll get the media to actually report news… okay that maybe a stretch. I don’t know what that something is but we should sure try to make the best of it.

      I quit smoking in ’88. When I smoked I knew I had to quit at some point. I remember coming down with a bad crud while driving the motor home all night to a gig in Greensburg, PA. I smoked a ton of cigarettes that night. I made it most of the way and slept the last hour and a half after I was relieved. When we got there and I woke up the first thing I did was reach for a smoke but I felt horrible so I passed and just went to bed. I was even sicker when I woke up but had a show to play. I held off smoking because of it. The next thing you know I had gone 24 hours without a smoke. That was huge. It gave me reason to go another day because I knew I had to face reality and quit but that first step was just a fantasy until that day. I’m going somewhere with this. When my body shut down and forced me to suspend my nasty habit it led to a much healthier me. I haven’t had a single puff since.

      You seem reasonable Bruce, that’s why I’m taking the time to give my reason why Stutzman’s comment was not outrageous at all. But there is an analogous statement that is and I wonder if you will acknowledge that fact.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoE1R-xH5To&feature=player_embedded

  • TomK_in_Boston

    I’m afraid the conservadems will declare victory with sequester and other austerity locked in as the new normal: middle class screwed again. Look at the enclosed image. Amazing spending cuts in the aftermath of a giant econ crash, the opposite of what is needed for recovery. After all BHO’s tough talk, we will basically get the Ryan budget! Class warfare never sleeps.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/10/compromise.png

    • nj_v2

      “You say you want a revolution…”

      • fun bobby

        not as long as the wifi and dollar menu both still work

    • William

      Huh?….that’s a cut?…18 billion?…

      • hennorama

        William — updating a quote attributed to Senator Everett M. Dirksen:

        “Eighteen billion here, eighteen billion there, and pretty soon you’re talking real money.”

  • nj_v2

    Knuckle-dragging, moronic, Rethuglicon jackass of the week:

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/pa-gov-gay-marriage-marriage-siblings

    PA. GOV: GAY MARRIAGE IS LIKE MARRIAGE OF SIBLINGS

    HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) — Pennsylvania Republican Gov. Tom Corbett compared the marriage of same-sex couples to the marriage of a brother and sister during an appearance on a Friday morning TV news show, a remark that was quickly condemned by advocates involved in the state’s ongoing battle over whether to allow gays to wed.

    Corbett was on WHP-TV in Harrisburg when an anchor asked about a statement his lawyers made in a recent court filing, comparing the marriage of gay couples to the marriage of children because neither can legally wed in the state.

    “It was an inappropriate analogy, you know,” Corbett said. “I think a much better analogy would have been brother and sister, don’t you?”…

    (snipped)

    • hennorama

      Sheesh. The daily double – clueless and offensive.

    • Ray in VT

      And here I thought it was like marrying an animal.

      • Ray in VT

        I wonder if the down vote is by some animal lover (literally) who doesn’t like getting compared to the homersexuals?

      • HonestDebate1

        It’s so easy to dismiss someone as a nut, then you don’t have to address the issue raised. The fact is the anaolgies with animals, polygamy and incest are valid. If marriage can be redefined as not being between one man and one woman then the slope gets slippery. I actually agree it was not a wise comment to make but that does not make it less valid. But I have to make assumptions even there. NJ did not (nor did the article he linked) give the quote and there was no context. I’m not sure what was said and I don’t know if “compare” is the right word or just a misleading opinion.

        Now I don’t expect you to actually explain how same sex marriage does not lead to this slippery slope because it certainly does. I expect just the opposite in the form of a proclamation without going near the substance.

        The fact is it’s already beginning.

        http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-brown-bills-parents-20131005,0,7226241.story

        • fun bobby

          its time we stop our oppression of polygamists. maybe mitt should get on it

        • Ray in VT

          I think that it is easy to dismiss someone as a nut when one compares something like same sex marriage to incest or marrying an animal. If we allow two ladies to marry, then why can’t I marry a lamp? That’s further down the slippery slope, but maybe that’s where we’re headed doncha know?

          I do find it very interesting that people who might favor “Biblical marriage” seem to get their hackles raised by the idea of polygamy, which is certainly sanctioned in the Bible. I don’t really like polygamy, and it is weirder to me than is gay marriage, but just so long as everyone is entering into the contract is a legal and consenting adult, and no parties are attempting to game the system so as to collect benefits as a single parent, then I don’t really see a moral problem with it. It does not harm me, and there is certainly a long history of the practice of polygamy in the western world and globally.

          I think we started down the slippery slope with Loving. As soon as we started saying that states couldn’t discriminate in whatever ways they found fit, then we started down the slippery slope for people to do things that we don’t like.

    • JGC

      I don’t know if I vote up or down on this one. I’ll give an upvote for it being “the jackass comment of the week”. (The downvote would be for the actual content said by the much un-loved governor of my home state.)

    • Bruce94

      And it’s Gov. Corbett over Rep. Stutzman winning by a nose the highly coveted Rethuglicon Jackass of the Week award! Keep up the good work, nj.

  • HonestDebate1

    “It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,” an angry Park Service ranger in Washington says of the harassment. “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/pruden-the-cheap-tricks-of-the-game/#ixzz2gmYFxfLD

    There you go.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      They even closed the cemetery in Normandy and farms that are run by private organizations. They will go to any length for political power.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    This is for Hennorama.

    The US Federal income tax code is 100 years old today.

    When it was first passed the tax code was 400 pages and relatively simple with rates starting at 1% and topping out at 7%.

    In 2012 the tax code had ballooned to 73.608 pages.

    Happy Birthday.

    Given that Obamacare started at 2,700 pages + 10,000s of addition pages of regulations imagine how great it is certain to evolve into over the ensuing years.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101077483

    • OnPointComments

      Obamacare

    • hennorama

      WftC — how’s that accurate statement of the number of pages in the PPACA, and the comparison to the total number of pages in all other U.S. state, territorial and district laws related to health care and health insurance extant prior to the passage of the PPACA coming along?

      Apples to apples and all that, yanno.

      [PS] Thanks for the shout out, BTW.

      • HonestDebate1

        Apples to apples would be to compare it to other bills passed exclusively by one party. As Pat Moynihan warned, no significant bill can survive in the long run if only one party supports it. He was right. I defy you to cite any bill this transformative that was passed in this manner and survived.

        Reagan worked with Tip; Clinton worked with Newt; GWB worked with Ted Kennedy. Obama told Republicans to kiss his ass.

        • hennorama

          ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

          • HonestDebate1

            Can you cite a bill if I say pretty please? I think this is unprecedented. Wake up and put me in my place smarty pants.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        henny — feel free to blow out the candles while you’re celebrating the centennial .

        • hennorama

          WftC — as today is only eighteen days after learning that one of those killed in the DC Navy Yard incident was personally known to me, and someone who had invited me into their home to share intelligent talk, food and drink, I’m in no mood to celebrate anything just now, nor will I be blowing out any lit candles anytime soon.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I’m sorry for your loss. A terrible tragedy.

          • hennorama

            WftC – thank you for your very kind words. They are indeed appreciated.

            In comparison to the loss experienced by those closest to the fallen, my loss is microscopic.

            Again, thank you for your very kind words.

          • HonestDebate1

            You sure are in the mood to be nasty, goofy and nonsensical, not to mention pulling out all the stops to distract from whatever valid point that is being made. It reminds me of when I cornered you and you had no place to go on the day (or day after) Sandy Hook. You said you were not going to comment the rest of the day out of respect for the victims,,, but you did.

            I flat out don’t believe you, you are the most disingenuous person on this blog. I think you’re lying. I feel confident you would use the tragic awful incident for your own purpose. If you are that distraught then stay home and grieve.

            If I am wrong, I don’t apologize to you. You have defined yourself, that’s not on me.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – your scurrilous words serve only to dishonor yourself, and to prove earlier points about your callousness and cluelessness. Further comment would serve only to dignify them, and shan’t be forthcoming.

          • HonestDebate1

            Shan’t is a cutsie word. And I don’t need further comment, I don’t care what you think.

            If you want to say the above comment was callous then fine, that may be fair. You are only of only two commenters here that deserve no civility which is the hallmark of my comments.

            But your reference to an earlier comment is just silly and typical of your obtuse and disingenuous self.

    • Bruce94

      I’m assuming you don’t want to turn the clock back and revisit the the turn of the twentieth century or earlier periods when life was simpler, most of us lived on farms, the tax code was 400 pgs or the plutocrats reigned as they did in the Gilded Age. Oh, wait, I thought I saw that in the Tea Party manifesto.

      In all seriousness, the record clearly shows that the Tea Party/GOP has been the biggest impediment to tax reform and simplification refusing time and again to specify which loopholes they would close and to compromise on rates for the wealthiest 2%.

  • HonestDebate1

    Has anyone actually been successful at signing up for Obamacare yet? I read one guy did but it turns out he didn’t.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      I don’t know.

      But I did hear that they were thinking of opening a Government run medical school given rush of physician retirements. I know the government loves to name their institutions after people but I don’t think “The Dr. Jack Kevorkian Memorial Teaching Hospital” is the best choice.

      It sort of tips their hand.

    • OnPointComments

      The official Healthcare.gov Facebook page:
      https://www.facebook.com/Healthcare.gov

      A sampling of Facebook posts:
      ● ———I now pay $525 per month. The ACA estimate is $1078 per month!
      ● Important: Your account couldnt be created at this time. The system is unavailable.
      ● My family premium of $789/mo for a healthy family of five just went up to $1700/mo
      ● If you cant log in just dial 800-F1UCK-YO to talk to a representative
      ● My premium in California more than doubled for less coverage
      ● Have been trying for 7 hours and cant get past the security questions.
      ● My MONTHLY premium went up by $200.00 and my coverage out of pockets costs increased by 30%.

      By the way, the telephone number shown above is absolutely true and accurate.

      • HonestDebate1

        It would be funny if it weren’t so tragic. I still haven’t opened the letter from my insurance company. Maybe I will tonight but I’ll need to get a bottle of Shiraz first.

        • OnPointComments

          Look at the bright side. You probably have maternity coverage now.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s funny, I told the same thing to my post menopausal wife last night.

      • HonestDebate1

        Thanks for posting the Facebook page. I just went there, I found no positives comments. Here’s a few more:

        I am so disappointed. These prices are outrageous and there are huge deductibles. No one can afford this!

        How is it that Facebook, which is a non-essential social networking web site, can reliably handle BILLIONS of electronic interactions per second, but the Healthcare.gov site, which is literally the very heart of the Obamacare program wasn’t ready for the obvious millions of visitors that you had to know it would be receiving?

        I have one question. What happens if I can’t afford the Affordable Health Care that you are cramming down my throat? I just ran your calculator, and if it is even close to accurate, I will have a choice…..I can pay my rent and buy groceries, or I can pay the health care premiums, move out into the streets and live under a bridge some where, and go hungry! Can I please get one of those exemption things that the President and Congress got?


        As someone who has been on military insurance for many years all I can say is this new healthcare law is proof positive that you really can polish a turd and sell it to people. Just you all wait and see just how wonderful government run healthcare really is!

        • fun bobby

          I wonder why those things are upsetting to people

    • tbphkm33

      Ah, and below we see a prime example of rightwing “mutual gratification society.” The continuing feeding of Nopublican propaganda and half-truths designed to make the gullible feel better about themselves. With reasoning being out-of-sight over a distant horizon.

      Boys, keep gratifying each other as your “tea party” railroads the country into oblivion.

      • HonestDebate1

        Do you ever give substance for your accusations? Click the Facebook page, it’s real. It is what is actually happening.

  • OnPointComments

    “We are winning…It doesn’t really matter to us” how long the shutdown lasts “because what matters is the end result.” –Senior Obama Administration official to the Wall Street Journal

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    It would be nice to have someone on who fairly represented the Republican point of view. Hard core lefty Beatty is always present to provide the democrat talking point of the day.

    • lobstahbisque

      That view point is amply represented across the whole spectrum of radio land. Find another station if you don’t like this one.

      • HonestDebate1

        Liberal radio has historically been a huge failure in the marketplace of ideas. They cannot compete without government assistance.

        • lobstahbisque

          REAL news was never expected to be a money-maker. it was supposed to inform the society and protect the populace from idiotic wing nuts like the tea baggers.

          • HonestDebate1

            Was Air America Real news? Is Ed Shultz or Randi Rhodes real news? Do you honestly believe NPR is more fair and accurate that Rush Limbaugh?

          • lobstahbisque

            Real news was never expected to be a money-maker. It was supposed to inform the society and protect the populace from idiotic wing nuts like the tea baggers.
            http://therealnews.com/t/2/

          • HonestDebate1

            You already wrote that save for the link that doesn’t work.

          • lobstahbisque

            I thought it might penetrate since you ignored the first one.

          • HonestDebate1

            I replied 12 minutes before you repeated yourself dude, you ignored my reply.

          • lobstahbisque

            My non reply was a reply. By the way, Ted Cruz is the antechrist. He’s creating quite a stir in the world of reality—a world I am selflessly providing to you.

          • HonestDebate1

            So you accuse me of ignoring the first one and i point out I did not. But you didn’t ignore my comment because you replied by not replying. Alrighty then. Go to bed, it’s late.

          • lobstahbisque

            Gradually pour in broth, whisking constantly. Whisk in milk, salt, onion, lobster meat, Worcestershire sauce and cayenne pepper. Heat until soup is almost boiling . Do not boil soup as the milk will curdle when boiled.

          • Fredlinskip

            Hoo, hooo, ha, ha, ha, ha,,
            Umm excuse me, uhm
            ha,ha ha, ha, ha ha ha ,ha,
            giggle, giggle,
            Sorry Greg I…
            HA, HA, HA HA HOOOO, Ha,
            Sorry I just wanted to ..
            HA, HA,HA, HA, HEE, Hee, hee..
            I think I’m all right now.
            Thanks for lightening things up Gregg,
            I needed that.
            Have a good weekend.

          • JONBOSTON

            I guess it comes down to what is On Point’s objective in its programming , especially the Friday news roundup. Is it to present a fair and balanced presentation of the issues or just its slant on current events? For me, Friday’s program should include more conservative points of view. Not only does it make for a more interesting show, it serves the public interest more since much of NPR’s listening audience is just not exposed to this point of view. And they need to be.

    • StilllHere

      They should substitute one of the liberal talking-point post-bots that lurk around here all the time. See below.

      • fun bobby

        i am considering replacing myself with a bot. it seems like i can educate liberals in an automated fashion. won’t that be grand? should give me more free time

    • jefe68

      Turn off the show if you don’t like it. It’s very simple.

  • PoliticsWatcher

    Thanks so much for the gratuitous Breaking Bad spoiler.

    What, are you guys stuck in the 1970s, thinking that everybody watches TV episodes on the same day?

    • fun bobby

      its been funny to see so many spoiler alerts after it airs.

    • StilllHere

      I heard it was all a dream and he woke up back in his apartment in Chicago.

  • HonestDebate1

    President Obama is not operating in good faith. If he wanted a solution he would not be screaming horror stories about what he says Republicans hath wrought. He would be keeping his mouth shut, rolling up his sleeves and showing some leadership. He is only interested in causing pain and blaming Republicans. That’s it.

    The barricading of the WWII Memorial is but one example. There is absolutely no call for it. Earlier I posted the park Ranger saying he was told to cause as much pain as possible. Here’s yet another example in my own State:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/4/blue-ridge-hotel-defies-park-service-shutdown/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS

    This guy takes no prisoners and has no shame at all. He will lie with ease. He will demonize his mother if it gets him what he wants. He has the press doing his bidding. He is truly nasty as hell. We have NEVER seen behavior like this from any President in my lifetime. He might just get away with it. This is awful.

    • hennorama

      Debates Not, He — as stated directly to you earlier, it’s increasingly likely that the Federal government will remain on partial shutdown for another couple of weeks.

      Everything that comes out of DC (and that is shown/reported on the various and sundry newsfotainment entities) in the interim will be part of what another poster called “the clown show.” It’s ALL political theater, but not every part of the theatrics are, have been, or will be newsworthy.

      One would be well-served to ignore these theatrics, and to instead enjoy some pleasant company, a good book, or some other diversion.

      • HonestDebate1

        “This isn’t some damn game”

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bPj_TpztYk

        • fun bobby

          i feel like a rapper is known to have made the same statement but i cant remember which one

          • fun bobby

            i remembered it was DMX. arf arf arf!

      • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

        “The heaviest penalty for declining to rule is to be ruled by someone inferior to … to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”

        - Plato

        • hennorama

          RWB — Thank you for your response.

          That Plato guy sure was smart.

          That said, the second portion of your comment left out one very important word – refusing.

          “One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”
          –Plato

          Another of Plato’s quotations is perhaps more apt to my point about ignoring “the clown show”:

          “Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.”

          See:
          http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/plato101112.html#odxIDf6flVU4a8fp.99
          http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/p/plato.html#5wljS0KJKgIjXouw.99

          • http://read-write-blue.blogspot.com/ RWB

            Plato is a source of wisdom for all that would learn from him, indeed. I tend to use GoodReads for my quotes.

            http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/879.Plato

            I don’t read ancient Greek but I hope to find the time to learn it after our Republic has been saved. It seems that Plato’s voice has much to say to us today.

            “In politics we presume that everyone who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill… we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one.”

            ― Plato

        • jefe68

          I guess that explains why the tea party has been winning some elections.

      • Bruce94

        I heartily agree. I for one am engaged at the moment in a composting and landscaping project. It’s 78 degrees outside — beautiful crystal clear skies in my sunbelt blue heaven. I’m pushing a wheelbarrow past some trees in my backyard where song birds are filling the air with sweet melodies…wishing you peace following your loss.

        • hennorama

          Bruce94 — what a small world. I’m taking a break from turning yard waste into mulch, and watching hummingbirds drink from both Mexican sage and bird of paradise flowers, in similar weather.

          Life is good.

          Thank you for your very kind words, and best wishes.

          Speaking of compost — for some reason a pleasant memory of the huge compost piles we had on the farm, steaming even in winter, just came to mind. I hadn’t thought of those images in years, despite the fact that I have compost bins and piles at various properties. Thanks for that.

          • fun bobby

            perhaps the comments on the shutdown have reminded you of huge piles of manure

          • hennorama

            fun bobby — your cynical comment will not disrupt my reverie.

            Compost piles are not the same as manure piles.

            My specific experience with animal waste did not involve piles of it. We constructed buildings with automatic waste flushing systems, and biodigesters that produced sufficient biogas to heat the buildings with very little supplementation, even in the dead of winter.

            Our compost piles were for use on our huge organic gardens, berry patches and fruit trees. Due to the potential issues involved in composting animal waste to be used around food for human consumption, we excluded animal waste from our compost piles, and used organic fertilizers, both homemade and commercially produced, when such supplementation was warranted.

            Thank you for your response.

          • fun bobby

            sorry, most steaming piles i have seen are manure.
            how much biogas does an average cow produce? in India they use human waste for biogas for household use. Were those digesters in VT?
            what was the feedstock for your compost piles?
            what do you use to supplement for phosphorous? what about calcium and magnesium?
            I have been partial to a mixture of blood and bone meals and composted chickenshit. i should have a decent batch of vermipost by next year which should be pretty great, does that have any commercial applications?

          • hennorama

            fun bobby – thank you for your response, and your interest.

            We raised hogs, not cattle, so I’m not a bovine BM expert. No doubt you can find the answer to your question by using your favorite search engine.

            Answering your remaining questions:

            No, not in VT. I prefer to not reveal the exact state, but it was in the northern latitudes, with significant winter weather.

            We primarily used crop debris, such as cornstalks, straw from buckwheat and various grasses (oats, wheat, rye, barley, etc.), sunflower stalks, all garden debris, spoiled fruit, etc. We also regularly mowed sections of non-productive land, and added the “hay” to the piles. Very occasionally we got fish emulsion from nearby processors.

            We always had three or more compost piles in various states of decomposition. And by “piles” I mean HUGE piles, as large as 200′ X 30 ‘ X 15′. All turning was done using tractor-mounted front-end buckets, and rear-mounted backhoe attachments. Basically, real-world Tonka Toys.

            My Dad was the soil chemistry expert, but we definitely used bone meal for phosphorus and calcium, and soft-rock phosphate in a pinch. I don’t recall supplementing for magnesium, but I was a teenager at the time and had other priorities to which I paid more attention.

            As to your vermipost – no doubt you know that composted worm poo is highly coveted. You could sell it very easily.

            Thanks again for your interest and your response.

          • fun bobby

            mysterious location. in VT they have had a lot of success with waste to energy digesters for the dairy farms. digesters seem like an obvious solution to the potential environmental hazards of swine waste. they say never cross a man with hogs. I am trying to convince the wife to let me get a piglet next spring any advice? (not for the convincing the wife for the piglet husbandry)

            I know it popular to sell for home gardeners just wondered if anyone was applying it on commercial or industrial scale.
            I am always interested to learn more about organic production techniques.

          • hennorama

            fun bobby – Thanks again for your interest and your response.

            Allow me a preface – my practical production-scale experience is decades out of date. We were doing this stuff over thirty years ago, and at the time we were seen by the local farmers as the “crazy organic hippie wannabe farmers.”

            Of course, once they saw the results, and our award-winning animals, there was considerable “me-too” adoption of methods.

            Looking back on it all, I realize now that my Dad was a real pioneer, and was actually an heroic figure. With almost no money, and with only long-outdated equipment, his wits, and some slave/child labor, he turned land that hadn’t been farmed in nearly a half century into some of the most productive land in a hundred mile radius.

            But I digress…

            Pigs/hogs are the most intelligent animals on four legs, with the possible exception of elephants. They have distinct personalities. As such is the case, you need to ask yourself why you would want to own one.

            If you buy a just-weaned piglet that’s 4 to 8 weeks old, you will have a voracious, intelligent animal on your hands, the rough equivalent of a one to two year old human. In six months, you will have an animal that weighs more than 200 lbs., and that is far stronger than yourself. FAR stronger. Think of the strongest person you know, then multiply that by a factor of at least three.

            An uncastrated male can easily grow to over 300 lbs. at one year of age. Our best boar weighed 652 lbs. at 24 months, and was over 900 lbs. at age 4. His tusks were over 4 inches long.

            Pigs/hogs have a feed conversion ratio of 2 to 4, meaning that they will gain one pound of body weight for each 2 to 4 pounds of optimally-nutritious feed.

            In other words, they grow like weeds.

            Pigs can learn aspects of human language, and if you give them a name, they will respond to it. Even after months or years without hearing language they have learned, they can and will recall and respond to it.

            So if your intention is to raise a single animal to slaughter for food, keep all of the above in mind.

            My answers and advice depend on your goals for the animal.

            As to breeds, I would recommend a hybrid of any two of the following:

            Yorkshire (great breeding sows)
            Duroc (very hardy and lean)
            Hampshire (the leanest breed in North America)

            We generally used Yorkshire sows, and Duroc and Hampshire boars.

            ==========

            As to worm castings and vermipost, organic farmers commonly use them as fertilizer, and/or use them to make liquid fertilizer “teas.”

            If you’re interested in organic gardening and/or farming, Rodale, Inc. publishes Organic Gardening Magazine, and there are myriad sources for organic farming info, such as:

            https://attra.ncat.org/organic.html

            Thanks again for your interest, and hope that helps.

            Feel free to ask any further questions you may have, OK?

          • fun bobby

            i was talking to a girl recently who raises both pet and food pigs. I would not keep mine more than about 3 months for the reasons you mentioned. she also advised not giving the food pigs names unless its dinner or bacon. I am actually more interested in the voraciousness than the bacon as I want to use it to clear an area of roots and vegetation. thanks for the suggestions of breeds,

          • HonestDebate1

            You should also consider goats. They are great at clearing vegetation and their poo is not nearly as stinky.

          • fun bobby

            i have some evil vine growing back there that reproduces via a rhizome I want them to root up. I hear goats can be a huge pain in the butt and they are not that good at digging. I am only getting one and at the end of the summer he is ham. next year that plot is pre-fertilized pre-tilled weed- free garden area

          • HonestDebate1

            I used to go along with our Vet to a hog farm to help him with what he called “bleeding hogs”. Basically he was drawing blood for testing and as I recall he went straight into the heart, maybe it was the aorta. This was a clean farm, meaning the hogs were disease free. I don’t remember the name or even if it was a disease, virus or something else but virtually every hog has it. The farm had to be completely decontaminated. The piglets were obtained by a procedure that involved a cesarian birth (thereby sacrificing the sow) and immediately taking the piglets into another room for an iodine bath.

            The bleeding was a way to ensure the the farm remained clean. We had to where special coveralls as well as earplugs. Those guy squeal.

            I also went with him to a butcher shop for inspection. He cut off the snout and measured sinuses and other gory stuff. I remember an absolutely stunningly beautiful young woman whose job was to gut the hogs. For some reason that stuck with me.

            No point really.

          • Bruce94

            Wow!

          • HonestDebate1

            We use a manure spreader now to spread about 3 loads weekly on the pastures but before that we used to pile it up behind the barn down. It’s a mixture of wood shavings, poo and the lime we put in the stalls after we scrape them out before rebedding. After a few years we had a mountain. That sat for many years. The stuff was black gold. Old timers would come around with the trucks and I’d load them up. I was paid in watermelons or whatever else they grew. One guy planted grapes and now years later he brings me wine. After years and years of working it into my garden the Carolina red clay is loamy 2 feet down and the garden always produces well.

            I get a lot of ribbing about horse excrement but I consider my fertile garden to be true wealth.

          • fun bobby

            horse poo is grade A I know a couple of guys who swear by it

          • Bruce94

            Just for the record, I only have a small veg. garden in the backyard with one compost tumbler, a bin and a pile. Nothing on the scale you and fun bob discussed. Coincidentally, hummingbirds also frequent my property and are attracted to the ornamentals. What I described as a “landscaping project” was really just removing some coreopsis that had overtaken a flower bed in the front and putting the waste on a pile in the back.

            Once a long time ago, I lived on a farm for a brief time, but was never involved in production. I was just a boarder.

        • fun bobby

          do you have one of those smart phones or something?

          • Bruce94

            If I get your question, yes I do have a smart phone, but I didn’t use it to post the above comment. I was on a break from my outdoor activity and indoors on my relic of a laptop. Even if I could somehow pull it off, I would never post while composting, nor text while driving. I wasn’t literally pushing the wheelbarrow at the time.

          • fun bobby

            that does answer my question. these days nothing would surprise me

        • HonestDebate1

          I’m jealous, the weather is beautiful here too but I am stuck replacing a huge hunk of floor that was damaged by a leaky water heater that went unnoticed for way too long. I already replaced the water heater over the last few days. I moved it outside. The work inside is yucky, I’m filthy. I think I’ll go fishing Monday.

          • fun bobby

            what type did you go with?

          • HonestDebate1

            Our old one was a propane tanked heater. It vented into a chimney which is no longer acceptable to Mr. inspector. We got an out door tankless model. It’s smart enough to turn itself on to keep from freezing. It works great. It’s a Rinnai 65 ep.

            Our propane company quoted us a price of around $2600 to purchase and install it. I found a new one online for just under $700 and except for the gas line I installed it myself. We kept the price down to 3 digits.

            Now the floor is fixed and we are deciding what to cover it with, probably some kind of stick on tiles. Of course that means the job spread to the entire kitchen which means we may as well do the dining room as well. Obviously, while we’re at it a coat of paint on the walls is past due. The wife is feng shui(ing) a new color scheme.

            One little mushroom instigated a big change. I’m not sure where the stopping point will be.

          • fun bobby

            those Rinnai are nice units. I would suggest gong with sheet linoleum rather than the stick on tiles. i’ve had both and its better for a lot of reasons

          • Bruce94

            The fishing sounds like a good idea. If you replaced the water heater and are re-doing the kitchen floor (linoleum?), I’d say you’ve got some skills. I have a linoleum knife, but have never used it on a job for which it was designed. Don’t think I could tackle what you’re up to.

          • HonestDebate1

            The water heater was in a closet that we rarely ever went into. We didn’t know it had a slow leak until one morning a mushroom popped up in the adjacent pantry. It was bad. I had to replace 2 joist and about 40 sq. ft. of the floor itself.

    • lobstahbisque

      Don’t you ever get tired of your blather and lying? And using links to podunk references? Do the voices in your head make you do this? And where do you get the time? Are you gainfully employed, doing this on company time or are you collecting Social Security?

      • HonestDebate1

        I never lie. The Koch brothers pay me by the word to make fools out of liberals with gut wrenching truth which my above comment is. Life is good.

        • fun bobby

          are they hiring?

          • HonestDebate1

            They’re shut down right now.

          • fun bobby

            i am surprised they are not getting their corporate welfare

          • HonestDebate1

            I can’t comment, it would be a conflict of interest and I don’t want the demerits.

        • Bruce94

          I thought you were on Sarah Palin’s payroll–a ghostwriter for her Facebook page. The only thing missing from your posts are references to death panels and pulling the plug on grandma…

          Oh, the Pain! Oh, Lord, What Hast Thou Wrought?

          • HonestDebate1

            I love Sarah Palin. I’ve written extensively on the death panels, they’re awful.

          • Bruce94

            If you have written extensively on death panels, then you’ve made a nice contribution to the obituary of the conservative movement in general and the GOP in particular. Too bad, because we probably still do need a strong two-party system to make govt. work for us and to guard against right-wing populist demagogues like Ted Cruz. BTW your admitted admiration for Caribou Barbi obviates the need for anyone to enter the usual epithets befitting such nonsense.

          • HonestDebate1

            Typically when met with comment like yours I ask, in a nutshell, if a 90 year old and a 5 year old both in need of a very expensive surgery should be funded using the same criteria. If we expect government to be prudent with our money then rationing is essential. Or if they want to go with the traditional end of life counseling argument, I ask if it’s an inherent conflict of interest between a government both paying someone to council about how to go to their reward and paying for a life saving procedure. Obama infamously pointed out how giving grandma a pill might save money.

            You see Bruce, it’s not just a meaningless label. There is a legitimate concern. The answers to my questions are obvious. When that is realized there is a pivot away from the denial of the need for death panels. All of the sudden the argument changes and death panels are real. The argument flips to, “well yea, but insurance companies have alway done that”.

            But I choose who I buy my insurance from, if I do. I choose how much coverage I am willing to pay for. There is no government mandate enforced by the IRS.

            Then we come full circle back to the politics of personal destruction and name calling.

          • Bruce94

            Giving folks the opportunity and wherewithal to basically discuss with their healthcare provider what amounts to the content of a living will or advanced medical directive is hardly impaneling death squads. Give me a break.

            BTW under our system of employer-based insurance, you often don’t negotiate the terms of your policy as an employee. You take what is offered. Under ACA, you might actually have more choices esp. if you decide to leave your job.

          • HonestDebate1

            I agree but that isn’t what I wrote.

            Why do you assume folks don’t have that opportunity now? It’s between the patient, their family, their God and their doctor. What’s wrong with that? Is the conflict of interest I illuminated really not important? Or do you just not want to address it? Do you think your new term “death squads” which I did not write is appropriate? Did you have a comment on who decides how to ration? Or is it your belief no rationing is necessary and anyone of any age should get whatever treatment they choose?

            You don’t need to answer but the silence is deafening. Here’s the thing, Sarah Palin was right.

          • Bruce94

            Here’s my reply to your 101 questions in the order they were posed:

            –look at the data on what proportion of elderly have explicit, legally binding living wills,advanced medical directives, or something comparable and get back to me. The ACA provision would only have allowed medical professionals to collect a fee for such consultations if and only if the patient and family decided it’s appropriate to draft such end-of-life instructions.

            –nothing wrong with that, the ACA provision would only facilitate it.

            –the conflict of interest or need for rationing are of concern, but I have neither the time nor inclination today to elaborate. If you’re really that interested in re-litigating the concept of national healthcare and rationing, look up my posts on the subject during the 5-13-13 On Point program, “Rationing in Our Future?” that dealt with the broader implications of rationing as well as its relevance to the healthcare market. Hint: rationing of medical care by price alone (ability to pay) has been largely rejected by every civilized, advanced country on earth.

            –you got me on “impaneling death squads.” I’ve edited my comment and changed it to “empowering death panels.” I hope that rises to your high standards for rational discourse.

            BTW after some reflection, I think my characterization of Palin as Caribou Barbie does a disservice to Barbie.

          • HonestDebate1

            I never commented on the percentage of elderly who have the documents you mention. I was rebutting your notion that they did not have the opportunity to make these decisions without government assistance. I don’t know how it’s possible to know the conversations people have had with their families, clergy and doctors. Everyone has the opportunity to do so. The government should play no part IMO.

            Everywhere there is government health care there is rationing. If I’m 95 and choose to sell my home, spend my kids inheritance and borrow money to get a few more years then I can. I don’t want that decision taken away.

            The barbie thing is funny but seriously you should read her book. Her story is an amazing tale of perseverance, determination and morality. I think Newt summed it up well.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkaKwJ9eOUU

          • Bruce94

            It’s her politics and intellect, not her character traits that I have a problem with. And I think most sober, responsible conservatives (and I do listen to conservatives from time to time) would agree that she was an awful choice for V-P, not ready for prime time, and totally out of her depth. This is not to say that her personal story lacks merit or value.

          • HonestDebate1

            Honestly? I think you just described Obama. I think the record is clear unless you are one who is still blaming Bush 5 years out.

            And I disagree about her intellect, I think she’s brilliant and I suspect it is her politics that leads you to disagree. But I will admit I may be wrong because many of my Conservative friends don’t agree with me.

          • HonestDebate1

            BTW, sorry for all the questions and thanks for taking the time. And I will look up your prior comments to see where you are coming from but I don’t know if I want to beat it to death with so many other more pressing issues at hand.

          • HonestDebate1

            Sorry, I didn’t see the rest of your comment when I replied.

            You take what is offered or you don’t. No one but you chooses your employer… assuming you choose to not be the employer.

            I’m not digging it up anywhere. It’s my own common sense.

          • jefe68

            Funny how these regressive right wingers seem to live in a world that is defined by lies.

          • HonestDebate1

            Name one lie.

      • jefe68

        He likes the sound of his own keyboard clacking to his muck raking.

    • HonestDebate1

      Obama continues to drop in the polls after the shutdown. Maybe America does get it. This place does not have it’s finger on the pulse of America.

      • lobstahbisque

        Hmmm.
        Lately it’s the right wing state’s governments that do have it’s finger up the pubes of America.

      • Bruce94

        But not as fast as the approval ratings for the Tea Party/GOP congressional leadership. Oh, I forgot, they’re already in the tank and can’t sink any lower.

        • HonestDebate1

          And that certainly is telling. It goes to my earlier comment that you seemed to dismiss. The Tea Partiers have legitimate concerns. They are not racist, they are not wacko, they are not selfish. They are law abiding patriots. But rather than deal with their concerns in the arena of honest debt, they have had their character assassinated by the left. They were targeted by the IRS. That’s the way Obama rolls. And that’s an example of what I meant when I said he may get away with it because he will stoop to any level.

          This drop in the polls is a result of his actions, or seems to coincide with them at a time when he was expecting to gain ground through his nastiness. It’s a significant development and maybe something will come of it. I don’t know what that something is,

        • fun bobby

          last i heard congress as a whole is sitting at 10% approval. it takes two to tango

    • Bruce94

      A quintessential example of Obama Derangement Syndrome ↑

  • notafeminista

    Because it tickles me…

    “The Affordable Health Care for Americans Act, passed by the House of Representatives on November 7, 2009, was 1,990 pages long. You could stand on it to paint the ceiling. The entire U.S. Constitution can be printed on eight pages. That’s eight pages to run a whole country for 221 years versus four reams of government pig latin if you slam your thumb in a car door.”

    ~ P.J. O’Rourke

  • fun bobby

    its interesting that allegedly the Asian driver in new York bumped a biker and when the bikers then attacked the driver the bikers were wrong. a woman in dc bumped an officer so then they chased her down and shot her to death in front of her child but the media seems to say they are in the right. can someone explain this?

    • StilllHere

      Government workers are shooting people but not being paid for it. Heroes!

      • fun bobby

        i bet we are up to 9x as many americans killed by police than terrorists at this rate

  • lobstahbisque

    [I think Phun Booby took the wrong drugs tonight.]

  • HonestDebate1
    • OnPointComments

      It’s the Obama administration’s modus operandi.

      “Not everyone in the Park Service is comfortable with their new role as shutdown shock troops. ‘It’s a cheap way to deal with the situation,’ one ranger is quoted as saying by the Washington Times. ‘We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.’ “

      • HonestDebate1

        It sure is.

  • HonestDebate1

    ABC is moving to Fox, at least their best talent is. First there was John Stossel then Elizabeth Hasselback and last night George Will made his first appearance on Special Report. Will and Krauthammer on the same panel is awesome.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Great move. It was interesting to see the dynamic last night. The Hammer has always been the big dog on the panel but he seemed quite a bit more deferential last night.

      • HonestDebate1

        I agree and the liberals on the panel will also make him think a bit harder because they actually debate honestly.

        There was a time when I never missed This Week but then David Brinkley died. Aside from Will, it became a circus. This was a good move all around.

  • OnPointComments

    The Obamacare Twitter feed: “This is what today was about: MT @ChadHenderson: enrolled in #Obamacare! Looking forward to having affordable healthcare for the first time!”

    “Chad’s story was tweeted out by the official Obamacare Twitter feed. It was promoted to the media by Enroll America, a health-care activist group headed by a former White House communications staffer, as a sign of Obamacare’s success.

    “Update (2.54pm ET): Washington Post reporter Sarah Kliff writes that she ‘spoke with Chad over the phone about this situation. He told me that he has indeed not purchased coverage but doesn’t believe he was lying.’”

    http://reason.com/archives/2013/10/04/obamacare-chad-henderson-father/1

  • gslouch

    In an editorial today one contributor called the president cold and calculating for not “negotiating” with the Repubs about the shutdown. However, she failed to mention the Republicans cutting the Snap program, waffling on the farm bill and earlier in the year on unemployment benefits, deep sixing every jobs bill the president came up with, supporting the sequester and most recently initiating the shutdown. Then touting that they are for the average American. What the Teabaggies and pubs fail to understand is that without the federal government we wouldn’t have SS ,medicare, etc. To expect people to exist without these programs is pure fantasy. Both the baggies and pubs are out of touch with reality and the president has finally realized that they really do not want to negotiate. They’re words are all pablum dribbling from their mouths. Good for you president Obama! Stay strong!

    • OnPointComments

      Only in government is an increase in spending, by an amount less than was originally proposed, a spending cut.

    • fun bobby

      Brilliant analysis,
      ” To expect people to exist without these programs is pure fantasy.”
      of course! because everyone knows that no one existed in America before those programs and no one exists in other countries now.

  • OnPointComments

    “The last CR the Republican House sent over to the Democrat Senate even funded all of Obamacare, except it required a one year delay in the highly unpopular individual mandate…And it nullified the special exemption from the requirements of Obamacare for Congress and its staff that the Obama Administration decreed as well without legal authorization.

    “But every single Democrat in the Senate voted to keep the special exemption from Obamacare for Congress and its staff, and against the same one year delay in the mandate on working people that Obama illegally granted for the mandate on big business.”

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/10/04/victory-over-obamacare-how-to-embarrass-the-democrats-into-funding-the-government/

  • Fredlinskip

    I think a large thing lost in all the partisan debate is that Dems have made a sincere effort to improve upon a very inefficient Health Care system with out of control spiraling costs and devastating effects on our nations’ debt, deficit and national economy.

    Some are rankled by the reconciliation process that helped bring it about by allowing it to escape filibuster in Senate. You’ve a right to your opinion. The fact is it DID pass all the legislative hurdles. Now Americans should work towards making it work.

    How do you think Dems felt when 2000 election was legitimized by slimmest of majorities in Supreme Court? Should Dems of Congress closed down the government, refused to perform their duties so that U>S credit rating would fall, and severely damage the economy unless the Florida electoral results were more closely scrutinized? The stakes were bigger then.

    GOP had YEARS to negotiate and improve upon ACA. Instead they chose to try and make ACA “Obama’s Waterloo”. They decided that their primary goal, instead of working to improve the lives of American people, was to ensure a “one-term” presidency.

    Now they suddenly put together a committee and say “negotiate with us or we’ll willfully damage our country”???

    Say it isn’t so. How can anybody- even those living in a Fox “News” bubble, advocate such a strategy with a straight face?

    • HonestDebate1

      But the cost ARE spiraling out of control exponentially. The debt HAS increased over the last 5 years like never before. The economy IS in the tank. GDP IS anemic. The LFPR IS plummeting. American’s lives are NOT improving.

      Reconciliation was a gimmick not intended for anything but budgets. Look, Obama is the one who threw bi-partisanship out the window on day one. This is the result. His own budgets have not gotten a single yes vote from either party so he just does’t have one. It’s an astonishing lack of leadership rooted it “my way or the highway” and nourished with nastiness with no intention to budge an inch. And now after passing the hurdles he changes the parts he’s afraid of by decree.

      • brettearle

        Can you literally prove that the implementation of the ACA is partially responsible for out-of-control costs?

        Aside from Fox and aside from all the Fringe Right websites, show us, by references–including WSJ and responsible Watch/Monitoring Agencies (in and out of Government)–where it is indicated that ACA is making a negative contribution; and, also, if so, where it is indicated that the ACA will, under no uncertain terms,not make up for it in the long run.

        Show us.

        I think that most of us–not just me–from the Center, to the Center-Left, to the Left–would love to see you honor this Challenge.

        • HonestDebate1

          Yes I can regarding the insurance premiums that were supposed to go down and the $940 billion pricing that has tripled. The point being Obamacare is not what it was sold as. I also think it’s a big imposition on businesses who cannot afford the increased cost so they are trimming back on the number of employees, cutting hours to avoid the need for compliance or closing the doors altogether. It is extremely risky to put your money at risk and start a new business as well because of Obamacare. These factors are a huge drag on the economy.

          Obama was the one who said premiums would go down by an average of $2500 per family. Do you really need me to dig up the quote? Do you really need me to show you the original $940B price tag? Do you really want a list of all the businesses cutting back to part time or shrinking their workforce? These are not fringe accusations.

          Here are a few links but I don’t know why you don’t want Fox or what you call fringe.

          http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359861/100-unintended-consequences-obamacare-andrew-johnson

          http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323623304579061423122639430.html

          http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/13/20010062-businesses-claim-obamacare-has-forced-them-to-cut-employee-hours?lite

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/obamacare-doctors_n_3634637.html

          http://www.moneynews.com/Economy/Obamacare-cancer-health-Medicaid/2013/08/22/id/521689

          http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124208383695408513.html

          http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/23/its-official-obamacare-will-increase-health-spending-by-7450-for-a-typical-family-of-four/

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/19/obamacare-small-business-hiring_n_3468498.html

          http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/medicine-and-politics-america/2011/dec/18/health-care-reform-organized-medicine-physician-pr/

          https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/33000/voices_hafer_aca_092713

          http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/358614/sorry-mr-president-there-serious-evidence-obamacare-bad-economic-growth-patrick

          http://www.cnbc.com/id/47997584

          • brettearle

            For starters, I go along with the `due diligence of credibility’:

            There, for the most.part, you’ve done your homework–as far as most of the online references are concerned…..

            Thank you for taking the time, for researching references that would be acceptable to most of us.

            Now, it’s up to me, and others, to honor your challenge of my initial challenge.

          • jefe68

            Did you read any of those articles?
            You have one guy who owns 21 Subway franchises and he says he can’t afford to pay people health insurance? That says more about the nature of the Subway franchise business than about the ACA.

          • fun bobby

            yeah their subs are terrible.

          • TFRX

            Mmm. uncovered phlegmatic sandwich crafters…

            By “uncovered” I mean both no healthcare and the germs coming out of their mouths on my food. Letting the market determine how clean my lunch is supposed to be was an absolute fail.

          • HonestDebate1

            Dude, he’s always been able to afford it in the past. What happened?

          • brettearle

            Jefe–

            I responded to Honest Debate, far above, with what I consider to be a very credible source for all concerned.

            I’m sure you’re familiar with it….

            Thanks.

          • HonestDebate1

            Thanks Brettearle but like Ted Cruz all I want is an honest debate about Obamacare. I am not here because I don’t like Obama. I am here because I am truly concerned. If you consider the off chance (in the minds of many here) I am sincere then you will understand my passion. I’m sincere. What else am I supposed to do?

            Let me quote someone who used to acknowledge my position, these days not so much. I won’t name names.

            [Honest Debate1 is] not a troll by any stretch of the meaning of the term. He is a passionate true believer, and he defends his beliefs repeatedly and well. He’s not completely inflexible either, as he has conceded points to me on occasion.

            Without different viewpoints being expressed, this forum would simply be a pointless echo chamber. Plus, arguing can be fun, entertaining, and can even change some minds and opinions.

          • brettearle

            HD–

            I have entered my response to your challenge (and to my own challenge), far, far above….a few long minutes ago….

          • JONBOSTON

            I happen to support universal health care. In a country as rich as ours, we should provide decent affordable health care for everyone. However, my issues with Obamacare are many. It’s timing was awful–you don’t burden business with more hiring costs when unemployment rates are 8-9% . Common sense tells you that employers will cut back on hiring in order to protect their bottom line , ergo no growth in the economy. If the economy grows , more people are employed and given employer-provided medical insurance. What we need are pro-growth policies , not more costs on employers. It’s the wrong “medicine” for the “ailment”.

            Many go uninsured because the cost is too high so they do their own cost/benefit analysis and decide to forego insurance. If insurance was cheaper, more would buy it. And why is insurance expensive? Because medical costs keep rising . Obamacare does nothing to rein in costs–in fact it’s made it worse by mandating coverages that many may not want , not controlling malpractice claims, and by covering pre-existing conditions it creates perverse incentives that will cause costs to sky rocket. There are better ways to deal with pre-existing conditions such as high risk pools, etc.

            Finally I will never forget the awful way Democrats got Obamacare passed. The deals and bribes to certain senators ( recall the Louisiana Purchase?), Harry Reid’s procedural contortions in the Senate after Scott Brown was elected , Obama’s arrogance when he had his offsite get together with Republicans, and the total dismissal of Republican concerns. Just a disgusting process . Is it any wonder that we’re still debating it’s legitimacy today?

          • HonestDebate1

            I think we are seeing the effects of the partisanship on it’s passing now. Any law this sweeping and transformative is doomed to fail if rammed through by one party. But that’s the way Obama rolls. Even now he is acting like negotiations are beneath him but it’s not his choice. The House gets a say, that’s the way it works.

            I agree with you in concept about a country with our wealth providing (for lack of a better word) healthcare. I am not sure if I would go for what is termed universal health care. I think there is a lot that could be done to contain and lower cost. I would also posit we could buy every citizen health insurance with the trillions we are spending on Obamacare. I’m not suggesting that.

            i think tort reform could be huge. I’ve seen different studies with wildly different conclusions but I don’t think there is a way to measure how much is spent on CYA procedures. I am intrigued by loser pays. All of that is out of my area of expertise but I think it may be within yours. I’d predicate your view.

            Another way to save would be to introduce competition. Medicare D is the only bill ever to come in under budget (still significant) because of the dynamic. Bush’s original proposal would have been even better. I like the idea of being able to buy insurance across state lines. I understand how difficult that would be logistically and how lightly we would need to tread around the 10th amendment. Conservatives like me typically bristle at the notion of treading on States rights, that’s true but I think it’s surmountable and worthwhile as an effort to lower cost.

            I like Dr. Carson’s ideas. I have no problem with tax money going to every newborn’s personal HSA. I’m alright with an expanded safety net regarding medical issues.

            In short I would rather the government facilitate dynamics that lower cost to make healthcare more affordable than to provide, administer and enforce the whole ball of wax.

      • Mike_Card

        No, no, and no. You are putting the Bush years of profligate spending on the Obama administration, and that is just wrong. Obama’s years have tried to cure the Bush crowd’s mantra of ‘deficits are irrelevant.’ The Debt has NOT increased in the past 4 1/2 years, despite this country’s attempts to crawl out of the Bush’s calamitous mis-management of the economy.

        • HonestDebate1

          Was the debt less than $16 trillion 4 1/2 years ago?

          • fun bobby

            according to the chart I posted above

        • fun bobby

          are you talking about America or another country?

          http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/us-national-debt-hits-16-trillion-dollars-under-barack-hussein-obama-barry-soetoro-2.jpg

          (i eagerly await the attacks on the source of the graph)

          • HonestDebate1

            Jeff Sessions may be my favorite Senator. The guy is brilliant.

          • fun bobby

            I cant think of any senators I like even a little. there are a couple of cool reps and there have been a couple of cool governors but its a short list

          • HonestDebate1

            I like Cruz, Rubio, Rand Paul, Tim Scott but they aren’t the only ones. I even like,,, maybe respect is a better word, a few Democrat Senators.

          • fun bobby

            unexplained downvote? does the person hate graphs or not want to accept the state of our debt?

          • pete18

            Doesn’t like the color red.

          • fun bobby

            that could be it.in my cultural sensitivity class for teachers we were advised not to grade people of certain cultures in red because it would offend them

          • lobstahbisque

            http://

          • fun bobby

            why bother with the graph? just say “blame bush!”

          • lobstahbisque

            You just did baby cheeks. By the way the punch line to your joke graph is—— Jeff Sessions. Thanks for the giggles. :)

  • JGC

    Rep. George Miller (D-CA) : “The house floor is starting to feel like a new epsisode of the Hunger Games. Every day the Republican leadership tries to find new ways to pit one desperate group of Americans against another…”

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Wow. So voting for funding the gov. in pieces is pitting folks against each other? Truly pitting groups against each other is right from the Obama playbook — it always has been. Maybe they are pitting Obamacare supporters against Obamacare detractors. But isn’t that the fundamental debate here.

      Obama’s home town newspaper, the chicago tribune, has called for a one year delay of Obamacare because they recognize it’ll never work as-is. The Tribe endorsed Obama twice.

      “Bottom line: Let’s delay and rewrite this ill-conceived law. Congress need not start from scratch. Lawmakers can build on what all of us have learned from three years of painful trial and error. Three years of attempting, but failing, to make this clumsy monstrosity work for the American people.”

    • OnPointComments

      There’s an abundance of irony in a sycophantic Obama supporter chastising anyone for pitting one group against another. Has President Obama ever given a speech in which he didn’t demonize, demean, or vilify someone, and set one group in opposition to another? Whether it’s Republicans, the rich, whites, business owners, Fox News, gun owners, right to work states, banks, or Wall Street, President Obama always has someone or some group that he will use to drive a wedge in America.

      • JGC

        “sycophantic Obama supporter” I thought you were talking about me there for a moment, OPC. Wait a minute, maybe you are…

    • Mike_Card

      This is what happens when people who don’t know s**t about governing get into government positions; i.e., Kock-backed puppets go to Washington. These T-party puppets don’t know what they want or how to act, without instruction from the Kock brothers to feed them instructions. All they want is…something the President doesn’t want.

      • fun bobby

        if that’s true he should try reverse psychology to get whatever he wants. he is a smart guy, maybe he already is

      • pete18

        Given that the President wants so many awful things, that’s not a bad strategy.

  • OnPointComments

    What would happen to you if your employer gave you three years to complete a project, spent _illions on the project (millions or billions, who knows), and you utterly failed?

    “The Affordable Care Act’s new health insurance exchange websites were supposed to be up and running on Tuesday morning. But as of Friday afternoon, more than 80% of them still weren’t working.

    “There’s increasing evidence that hardly any American has been able to purchase a plan through healthcare.gov, the trouble-plagued federal website that serves as the nexus for 36 states’ insurance exchanges.”

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2013/10/04/42-obamacare-exchange-websites-still-plagued-with-problems/

    I bet no one is fired for the failure, and that those responsible for the creation of the websites will receive bonuses at taxpayer expense.

    • HonestDebate1

      To add insult to injury, as I understand it, the money was wasted in Canada. It wasn’t even an American company.
      During the campaign, Newt suggested letting American Express, Visa or some such experienced entity deal with the logistics. Maybe Google.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    So Congress and Obama are colluding so Congressional staff, members of Congress and political appointees don’t have to abide by the same Obamacare rules as everyone else.

    George Orwell said it best:

    “All animals are equal, but some animals are MORE equal than others.”

  • OnPointComments

    The House has passed a bill to retroactively pay furloughed federal employees, and it is expected to pass the Senate and be signed by President Obama. Are the employees going back to work, or is the shutdown just a paid vacation?

    • fun bobby

      whatever they were not essential anyways.

    • HonestDebate1

      It’s a paid vacation, but it’s not their fault.

  • OnPointComments

    More from the Obama shutdown shock troops:

    “According the Archdiocese for Military Services, GS and contract priests (who are paid by the federal government as independent contractors in places where there aren’t enough active-duty priests to meet the needs of Catholics in military service) are being forbidden from celebrating Mass, even on a volunteer basis.”

    “…from the Military Archdiocese: There will be Mass at Quantico because of the terms of service of the contract for the priest at Quantico. Nonetheless, 3 Masses have been cancelled at local Fort Belvoir. I have been told but cannot confirm that Mass has been cancelled at the Navy yard. In one situation a couple that is to be married at an Air Force Base this Saturday and did all of their preparation with a GS priest will now be married by an active duty priest who is being taken in from somewhere else.”

    http://www.catholicvote.org/military-priests-face-arrest-for-celebrating-mass-in-defiance-of-shutdown/

    The park ranger told the truth: “We’ve been told to make life as difficult for people as we can. It’s disgusting.”

    • fun bobby

      we need some sort of separation of church and state, the government should not prevent people from exercising their faith

      • fun bobby

        was the down vote from someone who thinks we should not have a separation of church and state? or do they think the govt should prevent people from exercising their faith?

  • bwbodah

    I am continually amazed at the utter childish behavior of the House Republicans. They are nothing but a bunch of sore losers who are angry that their opponents scored a basket, so they took the communal ball and went home pouting. What disgusts me more is that these kindergarteners are continually sent to their posts by voters who vote for them specifically because they promise to steal the communal ball every chance they get, over the smallest insignificant thing. How many tens of thousands of Americans are not drawing a paycheck because some kindergarteners in Washington refuse to do their jobs? Yet these same kindergarteners continue to draw a paycheck for bringing the institution they have been entrusted to run to a screeching halt. Stop Congress’ pay for the duration of the shutdown. They’re not doing a darn thing except obstructing anyway.

    • fun bobby

      “the communal ball ” and there in lies the fundamental philosophical difference

      • HonestDebate1

        Bingo.

    • pete18

      Exactly what “communal ball” do their supporters want them to “steal?”

    • optimisto1 .

      I am continually amazed at the party of “NO” – Democrats. No negotiations! No recognition! No peace!

  • lobstahbisque

    “Some people said his shoes were too tight.
    Others said his head wasn’t screwed on just right.
    But whatever the reason, his head or his shoes,
    He stood in the senate, just being Ted Cruz.”

  • HonestDebate1

    I like the piece meal approach. The House passed a bill to make sure veterans got their disability payments. Will Obama veto that? I doubt it. Hagel has recalled most of the furloughed Pentagon employees as any Department can do and will as dynamics change. The President’s ratings are dropping. Harry Reid is apologizing for being his nasty self for some reason. We learned 95% of the Department of Education os non-essential. We also learned 83% of government os still working. the world didn’t end. What’s not to like?

    • fun bobby

      no one who works at the dept of ed teaches any chidren

      • John Cedar

        I know of an education professional who received funding from our state education department to do a follow up study on Head Start participants and contrast them with non participants from the same risk group.

        To her surprise if was found that by the end of third grade, the Head start participants had lagged back to where they would have been if they had never attended Head Start in the first place.

        Now you would think they would have taken this information and used it to advocate for still more funding and still more special programs.

        But instead they squashed the study and did not allow it to be published.

        • HonestDebate1

          Head Start is a big failure everyone thinks they love. I have seen a few studies that showed no advantage at all. It doesn’t surprise me that it’s actually worse than nothing.

          Regardless, suggest abolishing it which would save a ton of money and you will be accused of wanting kids to be stupid.

        • fun bobby

          sort of like how DARE was a big scam. educational research is poor at best from my experience. then they use it to come up with programs and trainings and make up new buzz words that are going to fix everything then the process repeats. it would be better to just let people teach their students in whatever way works best for the students

    • John Cedar

      “Why should I care about a kid with cancer, I know 2000 bureaucrats that are laid off with their own problems”

      • HonestDebate1

        He is a nasty little man.

        • JONBOSTON

          I’ve never understood why Dems in Congress have Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as their leaders and face to the general public. Harry Reid is a vile despicable person and serial liar and Pelosi is the dumbest person in Congress ( and that’s saying a lot).

          • Bruce94

            Sharron Angle, 2010 GOP nominee for the Senate seat in Nevada, makes both Pelosi and Reid look like angelic Einsteins.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I think you are missing the point. Even if Angle was as ‘dumb’ as you state she didn’t even win election let alone does she hold a leadership position in the GOP.

            Both Pelosi and Reid have been elected by the Democrats -time and time again — as leaders.

  • lobstahbisque

    http://billmoyers.com/2013/10/05/to-understand-the-shutdown-you-have-to-grasp-the-mindset-of-the-gop-base/

    Contained herein is a cogent, concise explanation of the right wing…

    • HonestDebate1

      ..

      • HonestDebate1

        I love the down votes on no comment! That’s a hoot.

        I replied to lobstah but the moderator got it so I edited and it went through. Then it looked like my original comment was back so I deleted the edit. That was the above. But the original is now gone awaiting the moderator.

        It’s kind of funny, my comment was merely noting that TF clicked like. TF is famous for shooting the messenger but never says who he or she actually trusts as a source. The like indicated that the known liar Bill Moyers was one.

        The reason my comment needed moderation was because, unlike here where I wrote “he or she” (I don’t know), I wrote it as one word with a slash instead of “or”. Who knew?

        • jefe68

          Yeah, well maybe it’s just to keep up with your record.

  • firstpandora

    The media has castigated itself for its complete pass to the Bush administration as they lied their way into a pointless and costly war in Iraq which nearly bankrupted the nation. They ought to take that lesson to heart in this shutdown: what we are witnessing is a bloodless coup to the heart of democracy but a small group of Republican extremists, backed by the money of several conservative organizations who are undoubtedly counting on using Citizens United as their invisible cloak. This small group has terrorized a cowardly speaker and a craven moderate majority, just as the Nazis boot-stomped the opposition in Germany. People, whatever your political views, you all know that in a democracy legislation gets passed because you have the votes for it. You don’t like it, you go out and fight to get more of your guys elected. Obamacare was passed, vetted by a pretty conservative Supreme Court, and has survived 5 years of effort to overturn it. In a democracy, you move on. The President cannot blink on this without becoming a participant in a vicious revolution to destroy democratic practice. You realize if they succeed even a little bit, next year they can try “shutting down the EPA by not funding it”, shutting down the NLRB because we hate labor, or how about cutting off Medicaid? This isn’t a joke: this is war.

    • anamaria23

      Well said and the war is well heeled and orchestrated.
      You might read “A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Making” NY Times investigative journalism report in today’s paper. It is an eye opener.
      This shutdown is a deliberate coup by the well heeled among us that usurps the Democracy unashamedly.

    • jefe68

      I’m not sure why people have to mention nazis when we are talking about the collective effort of the regressive right wing, funded mostly by the Koch brothers to overturn or defund the ACA. You can make your points without this foolish false equivalency.

      Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

      • firstpandora

        I did not mention Nazis reflexively. I mentioned them deliberately. Go back and read your history. The Nazi party lost the vote. they set out to crush the opposition through lies, reprisal, threats, and, ultimately, physical violence. This group is doing the same thing: a Republican who speaks up against them is vilified in the right wing blogs and rags, threatened with a tea party opponent, and otherwise shouted down. The Nazi party ultimately succeeded with these tactics and silenced the opposition. I am not using scare tactics: I believe we are at a crossroads and a crisis.

        • jefe68

          I know the history very well.
          My mother lost 80% of her family in that war. So don’t lecture me about nazis.
          As awful as Ted Cruz and his regressive tea party cronies are they are far from being nazis. Again, you are making cheap shots and it makes you seem like a fool.
          Goodwin’s law…sigh.

          • optimisto1 .

            What’s wrong with Ted Cruz? That he represents American people who don’t want ObamaCare? That he wants us to live within our means?(And I also lost grandpa in WW2)

          • jefe68

            Good for you, you support him.
            I don’t. I find him to be nothing more than an opportunist and a regressive one at that.

          • optimisto1 .

            I find Obama and Harry Reid same thing on the left.

      • Bruce94

        Before you dismiss firstpandora’s equivalency as totally out of hand, look at the rise of David Duke (R-La) within the Republican Party. He was elected in 1990 to the Louisiana State House largely because a weak and fractured Republican Party was in disarray. The more moderate GOP candidates canceled each other out in the primary election, and his anti-tax Grover Norquist-inspired campaign catapulted him to the state legislature.

        Given that history, I view the antics of Ted Cruz with some uneasiness esp. when you consider that one of the underlying reasons for the current stalemate in the House of Rep. is the Tea Party/GOP refusal to compromise on any tax rate or revenue increase that would impact only the top 2%, no matter how deep the spending cuts attached to that tax increase.

        Under Reagan and other Presidents, deficit reduction used to be a bipartisan exercise involving both spending cuts and tax increases. Not so in this current extremist iteration of the Republican Party. Furthermore, continuing resolution and debt ceiling negotiations never used to involve dogmatic parties at the table who were willing to circumvent and undermine our long-established electoral, legislative and judicial processes.

        • jefe68

          And yet he lost elections. I’ll dismiss anyone who uses the nazi meme.
          It’s a cheap shot. Just as the socialist meme is against the President.

          What pray tell, does your comment have to do with Germany circa 1933?

          • Bruce94

            I basically agree with your observation. I was just pointing out that an avowed neo-Nazi like Duke can gain traction in one of the major Parties if that Party grows so weak and dysfunctional that the more rational, moderate elements within it are intimidated or pushed aside by the extremists.

          • OnPointComments

            What you’re saying is true if you define “gain traction in one of the major Parties” as winning an off season special state election in 1990 in which fewer than 17,000 votes were cast. For reference, 17,000 votes is less than 10% of the number of votes cast in the 1988 presidential election in that district.

          • jefe68

            That’s true, but there was a time when there were a lot of racists in the government. FDR had a few openly ant-semites in his cabinet.

            I’ll become really concerned if we end with a third party like the French Front National, the Dutch National Alliance. or the Norwegian Progress Party, who just won a general election.

          • Bruce94

            I take your point and confess not to know the details of the evolution of multi-party systems in Europe and how that might contribute to destabilizing society or creating conditions more favorable to the proliferation of radical ideologies or groups.

            I’d point out, however, the extremist elements in the FDR administration found their niche in the 1930-40′s; Duke found a door open to his extremist views in the 1990′s–a little more surprising to me given the progress we thought we had made up to that point.

        • OnPointComments

          I can’t find any evidence of a relationship between David Duke and Grover Norquist, whether as a campaign inspiration or otherwise. Perhaps you’ll provide us with a link.

          I also can’t find any evidence that Duke was elected to the Louisiana State House “largely because a weak and fractured Republican Party was in disarray.” As to being “catapulted” into the state legislature: in a special election to fill the vacated seat of a Republican state representative, Duke beat his opponent by 227 votes in a runoff election; the power source for his catapult must have been pretty weak–he served two years and never won elected office again.

          Perhaps you should reevaluate the history with which you view the antics of Ted Cruz.

          • lobstahbisque

            Was David Duke the klansman or the guy who used prostitutes? i always fergit. I know it isn’t Spitzer.

          • OnPointComments

            A quiz: Which U.S. Senator has served the longest?
            Hints:
            ● Like David Duke, a Ku Klux Klan member
            ● Unanimously elected the top officer (Exalted Cyclops) in the local Klan unit
            ● wrote “I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side”
            ● wrote “The Klan is needed today as never before”

          • lobstahbisque

            Oh right, David Vitter. Thanks for telling me. You’re such a comfort….

          • JGC

            Was that be the Honorable Sen. Robert Byrd, of West Virginia?

          • Bruce94

            Make no mistake, I’m no fan of Byrd and the Dixiecrats. Byrd, however, publicly repudiated the Klan and explicitly renounced his segregationist views early on and throughout his career as a member of the U.S. Congress. In fact, his voting record received a 100% favorable rating from the NAACP in 2003. I don’t recall Duke ever explicitly condemning the KKK or doing a 180 on his racist views. If there is a link showing his mea culpa, please don’t hesitate to share it.

            Which brings us full circle to the original question of false equivalency, which conflating Duke and Byrd IS a pretty transparent example of.

          • Bruce94

            He was a former Grand Wizard of the KKK when he ran successfully as a Republican.

          • HonestDebate1

            What’s your point Bruce? Surely you are not trying to paint the Republican party as racist, are you? If so, that’s sick.

            Duke was nobody. He was in office 2 years. He was hated. He chaired no committees. He was irrelevant.

            He was nothing compared to the worshipped and highly influential Robert Byrd.

            They both renounced the KKK but that kind of history is not so easily forgiven in my book.

          • Bruce94

            I wouldn’t agree that Duke was totally irrelevant, but take your point that he did not meet with much electoral success after his coup in the special election. I believe he remained active and held some positions within the state or local Republican Party for years following his term in the state legislature. I could be wrong about that. If you have the time and inclination, maybe you could look that one up. Also, I don’t recall seeing anything approaching a mea culpa from Duke regarding his past ties to the KKK and racist views. See my comment below about the false equivalency of conflating Byrd and Duke.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re dodging. Are you trying to paint the Republican Party as racist or not? Just say it and lose the innuendo.

          • Bruce94

            I deleted the reference to Norquist, but according to the account in Wikipedia, Duke did capitalize on his opponent’s advocacy of a tax increase. Norquist’s anti-tax Americans for Tax Reform was well underway by then, and certainly was a factor adding to the anti-tax fervor within the GOP then and now.

            During the open primary, the moderate Republican candidates most assuredly did cancel each other out. Otherwise Duke would never have made it to the Runoff; there probably would not have been a Runoff.

            I trust you can find the link to the Wikipedia article which describes this episode in more detail. If not, I’d be pleased to furnish it.

      • firstpandora

        chamberlain was complacent too.

        • jefe68

          you know what’s really hilarious, some right wing regressive said the same thing about liberals.

          By the way, the nazis were real big on a large centralized government which is not quite what the nihilistic tea party is about.

    • optimisto1 .

      So did you ObamaCare apologists sign up yourselves into ObamaCare? American people don’t want it. Hypocrytes.

      • firstpandora

        I’m covered by Medicare and I wish every citizen had a single payer system that works as well, regardless of age. If I wasn’t covered, I’d sign up in a minute. I

        • HonestDebate1

          There is no single payer.

        • fun bobby

          how much do you think your monthly premium would be? have you used one of those calculators yet?

    • HonestDebate1

      In 2007 after 4 years of raging wars and tax cuts the deficit was $151B and revenue was at an all time high that has yet to be eclipsed. That’s hardly bankrupting the nation.

    • harverdphd

      you the lapdog and bill moyers need to recognize that the “extremists” were lawfully elected by people who don’t happen to agree with you. you need to realize that some people don’t want to “move on”..(popular cry after scumbag bill cheated on his wife (for better or for worse, till death do us part)). laws are repealed every day. if they win; so be it. if you don’t like it, get out there and work your butt off to change things. if you lose, so be it.

      • firstpandora

        incivility and insults: ever the hallmark of tiny minds.

        • HonestDebate1

          Dude, you just called Republicans Nazi’s.

          • firstpandora

            As Jane Austen would say “Dear Readers, this is a teachable moment.” Observe that there has been no response to the substance of the message: is it or is it not an unconstitutional end run around the duties of Congress to pass a budget to make the budget a hostage to a minority’s desire to subvert a legitimately passed and legally vetted law? If they succeed with regard to this law, what would stop them from picking their next target? Shall it be the Civil Rights Act (Ron Paul hated that one). How about the Clean Air Act? We have a constitutional process through which voters speak: it’s called elections. You are free to call me any names that resonate with you. And you can keep demonstrating that you have no ideas at all to contribute to the discussion.

          • pete18

            Where in the Constitution would you find
            the section that forbids elected officials from voting down budgets or voting not to fund a law?

          • firstpandora

            Please read Section 8 of the Constitution with regard to how bills are passed and how they can be stopped by vote or veto. Should the House and the Senate choose to pass a budget that refuses to fund Obamacare, and the President vetoes it, they can override his veto with the necessary majority votes. If they do not have the necessary votes, they lose until they can put together a Congress that does have the necessary votes. That’s how it has worked since we passed a Constitution. When we lose, whether we are a minority of the right or a minority of the left, we don’t get to have temper tantrums and obstruct the business of government. We go out and try to elect enough folks who sympathize with our position. After 40 plus attempts by vote in the House, each of which failed to derail the ACA, a minority in the House has decided to subvert the democratic process. Read Thomas Friedman. And others and, oh yes, the Constitution.

          • pete18

            ” Read Thomas Friedman. And others and, oh yes, the Constitution.”

            The passage you are referring to is in section 7 not 8.

            Sounds like the congress followed the constitutional directives to a T. The duly elected members of the house voted to delay Obama care for a year and strike the tax on medical devices. The duly elected members of the senate rejected this bill preventing a funding of the government.

            If you find it consitutionally acceptable for the President to independently delay parts of a bill that the Congress voted for (I see no provision for that action in any part of the Constitution) then how is it that the Congress, following the voting procedures laid out in the Constitution are in violation of it?

          • firstpandora

            Section 7 addresses their lawmaking, Section 8 their monetary obligations. Section 8 notes that Congress has the power
            “To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

            Congress can borrow money through the issuance of bonds and other means. When it borrows money, the United States creates a binding obligation to repay the debt and cannot repudiate it.
            So, when Congress threatens to refuse to raise the debt ceiling, it is refusing to honor its binding obligation, one that arose because of the bills its passed and the costs these generate.
            You can quote whomever you like: Congress has an obligation to pass laws in a way consistent with the Constitution and fund government consistent with the Constitution.
            It is certainly legitimate to argue what the limits of executive power should be: that argument has been loud and contentious since the Constitutional convention and I do not think Presidents can legitimately make war yet Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq are executive wars. But Mr. Cruz cannot bend the Constitution to his particular will without doing it significant damage and his interpretation of it is wrong. No matter how often he says it.

          • pete18

            You make a lot of assumptions about the tacit obligations within the Constitution’s line about borrowing money. We are borrowing money from China now to pay our debts and there are competing Constitutional obligations within the decision to raise the debt ceiling. To say that it is less debatable than the Constitutional restraints on executive powers isn’t a credible argument.

            You’ve been knocking Cruz for his attempts to “bend” the Constitution but I’m wondering where you would disagree with him on some of these points from his floor speech:

            “Over the past five years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5
            trillion to $8.6 trillion. That is ‘‘trillion’’ with a ‘‘T.’’ That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers.”

            “Now, there is nothing wrong with borrowing from foreign countries. But we must remember that the more we depend on foreign nations to lend us money, the more our economic security is tied to the whims of foreign leaders whose interests might not be aligned
            with ours.”

            Wouldn’t the borrowing of funds from one existing program that may threaten its standing be just as problematic as not raising the debt ceiling? Isn’t a reliance on potential foreign enemies to fund our debts a irresponsible situation for our congress to be putting the country in?

          • firstpandora

            First, while I disagree with you, let me say I appreciate your thoughtfulness in supporting your argument and I appreciate that your response is substantive. Second, I never know what numbers folks are relying on when they say “the national debt.: The gross numbers are somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 trillion. The national debt (and again, I’m using the gross numbers) doubled under George Bush and has continued to go up and of course it should be a concern. But raising the debt ceiling doesn’t mean we are agreeing to spend more money in the future: it means Congress is responsibly allocating funds to pay for the debt it has already incurred. I’m also not crazy about the notion that foreigners control too great a percentage of our debt but the fact that they do reflects the stability and desirability of our currency. If you incurred credit card bills and you no longer like City Bank you don’t get to fail to pay without consequences, including losing your credit rating and your ability to borrow at low rates on the legitimate market. Is that what you want for us?

          • pete18

            Thanks, I too always appreciate someone who can have a substantive discussion, about differences of ideas, which doesn’t happen all too often in this forum.

            To that end, I think you are on better footing arguing for the benefits of your side of the debate rather than the supposed unconstitutionality of the other side’s position. I think there’s a legitimate case for both approaches but I don’t think the unconstitutional critique holds much water.
            The quotes I posted above weren’t from Senator Ted Cruz but Senator Barack Obama when he argued and voted against raising the debt ceiling in 2006. So, either the former Constitutional law professor who is now the president (whom I assume you support) was also trying to “bend the Constitution” when he was a senator or there is actually a legitimate point that is being made by those who oppose raising the debt ceiling.

            Although raising the debt ceiling doesn’t mean we are agreeing to spend more money, that is almost always the practical result of it and one of the reasons to limit it. Despite some of their actions, the Congress is a collection of human beings who are inclined to respond the same way everyone does with difficult monetary situations. If people overspend on their credit cards it is tough for them to cut back if Visa keeps raising their credit limit. It is often only when the credit limit stops and they are backed into a corner that begin to even consider a more parsimonious approach. The only time we’ve had any recent cut backs to the increases in spending (and they were very small) happened during the sequester when Congress was backed into a corner and had no other options. Not raising the debt limit is another corner to try and push Congress and the president into. It doesn’t guarantee that they will cut any spending but it increases the odds.

          • OnPointComments

            In answer to your first question, no it is not unconstitutional. You’re right, this is a teaching moment.

            On CNN today, Candy Crowley and Senator Ted Cruz:

            CRUZ: But Candy, let me press back. It’s twice you’ve said Harry Reid would say it’s blackmail. And I want to press back, because I actually — I think that’s a false claim with no basis. The bill that the House passed on the VA simply funds the VA. It doesn’t mention anything about Obamacare. It doesn’t mention anything about anything else. Now, for hundreds of years, the way Congress has appropriated has been one topic at a time. How is it blackmail to say we think we should fund the veterans? Do you agree? That’s a yes or no vote. Now Harry Reid refuses to let the Democrats vote on that. But how is it blackmail to say, we may not agree on everything but is there anything we can agree on? We ought to agree on supporting our veterans.

          • HonestDebate1

            Typically when someone is so far out there I just let the comment sit and speak for itself. I am not going to argue a whacked premise.

          • firstpandora

            once again, excellent empirical proof that those with no ideas resort to attack. As you are incapable of contributing to the discussion, I suggest you just designate yourself as “insulter in chief”, a role you fill very well.

      • lobstahbisque

        Why is objective reality so scary for these…..people?

      • Fredlinskip

        I’m not sure you have thought through the consequences of pandering to the whims of those who shut down and threaten and damage our country’s economy.
        Don’t you understand the implications of the precedent set here? How this will damage our democratic process forever?
        How about after next presidential election the losing side says, “No we don’t like that guy,- we’re going to close down government and we’re going to not pay U.S. bills and send U>S> ecoomy in tailspin if our guy isn’t president”.
        Don’t you get how are democracy would be PERMANENTLY damaged if Dems were to give in to such demands?
        THINK…. just for a second
        please.

  • Steve__T

    “Beware all ye mortals,

    This warning to heed:

    When faith turns to arragance, or

    joy turns to greed-

    “Belief becomes shackles,

    Not wings of freed.

    Then hard be thy heart,

    Corrupt be thy creed.”

    T.A Barron

  • OnPointComments

    You can’t make up these shutdown antics. They’re just too, too silly.

    Cones are shown along the road to Mount Rushmore. The National Parks Service placed the cones there to prevent viewers from stopping on the side of the road to view the monument.

    • OnPointComments

      I can imagine a uniformed Park Ranger standing in the road with a megaphone, yelling at drivers “Look to the right! The right! DO NOT LOOK TO THE LEFT AT THE MONUMENT! Violators will be prosecuted!”

      • Fredlinskip

        You think that’s crazy. Imagine this: GOP in House damaging our country’s economy simply because they don’t like the results of our constitutional process.
        That’s downright out-of-here looney.
        If they don’t like our constitution, why don’t they consider moving somewhere else where they might do less harm?
        Lots of freedom in Somalia.
        HEY, and they let you carry rocket launchers there! GOP’ers gotta love that!

    • HonestDebate1

      Local municipalities, States and even the private sector are stepping up to prevent this insanity but the feds want pain. Their reasoning is there is no one available to empty the trash. We can get the trash emptied without the feds.

      It’s crazy.

    • fun bobby

      perhaps some one should hold a mt rushmore slalom autocross race there

  • OnPointComments

    INSURANCE PREMIUM INCREASES SHOCK CHARLOTTE CONSUMERS
    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/06/4365331/insurance-premium-increases-shock.html#.UlHOXabD_6d

    “Across North Carolina, thousands of people have been shocked in recent weeks to find out their health insurance plans will be canceled at the end of the year – and premiums for comparable coverage could increase sharply.”

    ● George Schwab – 62 and retired; monthly premium goes from $228 to $1,208
    ● Michael Hood – 46; monthly premium goes from $324 with a $10,000 deductible to $895 with an $11,000 deductible

    Look at the bright side Mr. Schwab: you’ve got maternity care now.

    • jefe68

      You forgot to mention that George Schwab had a $10,000 deductible with his plan.
      You cherry picked from the article as well as they stated that there are many plans and people will have to do some research and shop around. Is Bluecross the only insurance provider in that state? Anyway in three years he can get Medicare.

      He could spend about $328 per month (with an average deductible of $2500) – is the national average for the mid-tier “silver” premium based on HHS calculations for approved plans in 48 states.

    • jefe68

      By the way, the North Carolina legislation is pretty out there in terms of being regressive. From marriage to science they have written laws that would make inquisitors of past centuries proud.

  • lobstahbisque

    See below. The disinformation brigade is back.

  • brettearle

    Honest Debate–

    I have spent a fair chunk of my spare time, today, looking into the matter of a challenge to your claims about how–by your implication–the ACA is currently either bankrupting the country; almost bankrupting the country; or will be bankrupting the country.

    My preconceived notion–that I would find mixed reviews of pro and con–were backed up my research….at least as to how far I, so far, have gone.

    I have not ruled out, by any means, the task of looking through the painstaking time and effort of checking out your claims from the references.

    As I told you yesterday, I consider your references to be, at least reasonable–if not credible.

    However, at least here, in Round One, I have done what I thought I should have done and would do under any similar circumstances:

    That is, GO TO A SOURCE that attacks, condemns, and criticizes BOTH sides.

    INDEED, THIS SOURCE IS ESPECIALLY RIFE WITH DEBUNKING OBAMA’S CLAIMS AND HIS ADMINISTRATION’S CLAIMS OF THE FINANCIAL ADVANTAGES AND BENEFITS OF ACA.

    MY GOODNESS, YOU SHOULD SEE HOW THIS SOURCE, TIME AND AGAIN, DISABUSES US LEFTIES OF THE PRISTINE HOPE AND PROMISE OF ACA!

    YES, SIR…THEY DO.

    INDEED, UNLESS YOU WANT TO BURY YOUR HEAD, YOUR EYES, AND YOUR BRAIN, IN THE WONDERFUL SAND OF THE MIDDLE EAST–LOOKING FOR MORE OIL THAT WE MIGHT DESPERATELY NEED IF THE STRAITS OF HORMUZ AND THE PERSIAN GULF ARE SUDDENLY CLOSED–I THINK THAT WHEN I POINT YOU TO THE SOURCE, AS I SAID, YOU WILL SEE, INDEED, THE ROUGH AND UNACKNOWLEDGED TRUTH, NOT YET ESTABLISHED, ON THIS FORUM:

    That both sides, thus far, are, very likely, noticeably off on their facts, figures, and predictions–as to premiums, coverage, and economic impact.

    Yes, this is a source that, as I said, goes after both Obama and the other side.

    And please keep in mind, too, that VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY implored millions watching, in a VP Presidential Debate, to GO TO THIS SOURCE, in order to check out the UNFAIR MYTHS ABOUT HALLIBURTON.

    And so, HD, and others of “similar brethren”, HAVE AT IT!

    Why?

    Because this is the final test–for me, at least–as to whether you, and others who claim the facts are on your side, will admit that the FACTS MAY NOT BE FULLY ON YOUR SIDE…MAYBE, FAR FROM IT (AND, OF COURSE, NOT FULLY ON OUR SIDE, AS WELL…MAYBE FAR FROM IT, AS WELL).

    INDEED, SOME OF THE FACTS MAY BE ON YOUR SIDE AND SOME OF THE FACTS MAY BE ON OUR SIDE.

    AND IF YOU DO NOT SEE THIS; AND IF YOU NEED TO DISCREDIT THIS SOURCE–EVEN THOUGH I HAVE TOLD YOU THAT THIS SOURCE GOES AFTER BOTH SIDES WHEN IT FEELS IT IS JUSTIFIED TO DO SO; AND EVEN THOUGH FORMER VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY HAS REQUESTED THAT THE PUBLIC USE THIS SOURCE AS WELL, TO CHECK OUT HIS OWN PERSONAL BUSINESS INTEGRITY AS HE RAN FOR THE SECOND HIGHEST OFFICE OF THE LAND–THEN I HAVE LOST MY EARNESTNESS IN DIALOGUE WITH YOU, and can only see the potential for endless futility with you.

    I HAVE A VERY HARD TIME SEEING YOU EVER GIVING GROUND.

    IF YOU WANT THE GRIDLOCK TO STOP IN DC, IT IS TIME TO DO IT, HERE, LOCALLY–AS A SYMBOLIC ACT….

    YES, SIR–AND PARDON MY SARDONIC SATIRE HERE–BUT I ISSUE YOU A HOSTAGE/RANSOM CHALLENGE, VERY MUCH LIKE THE ONE BOEHNER, MCCONNELL, CRUZ, PAUL, ET AL ARE ISSUING TO THE PRESIDENT [HA. HA. MY exquisite BIAS SHOWING HERE] :

    EITHER READ–FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL–A SOURCE THAT HAS NO COMMITMENT TO ANYTHING BUT A REASONABLE METHOD OF APPROXIMATION OF THE TRUTH, AS BEST AS CAN BE PRESENTED, BASED ON CURRENT NUMBERS, TRENDS, AND TIME PERIODS.

    OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE.

    THE FIRST PAGE OF THIS WEB SITE WILL TELL YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

    ONE ENTRY IS ABOUT CRUZ’S GAMBIT AND THE OTHER IS ABOUT OBAMACARE MYTHS.

    SHALL I GIVE YOU THE URL, OR HAVE YOU, LONG AGO, FIGURED IT OUT?

    GENTLEMEN, THE ENVELOPE PLEASE…..

    And the winner is……..

    (factcheck.org)

    • HonestDebate1

      Brettearle,

      First and foremost I must say, I enjoy your comments and respect them. You are an honest debater. I appreciate your quest for truth however much I may or may not disagree with your politics. But don’t think for a minute that means I won’t use both barrels to shoot you down if needed.

      I do however think you have misread my claims. I don’t think I have claimed Obamacare IS bankrupting the country. My claim is twofold. One, there can be no meaningful recovery as long as Obamacare is in effect as written. It is at the very least preventing any much needed recovery because it is devastating to business. Our problems cannot be fixed with the tax code. It can only be fixed by economic growth coupled with fiscal restraint. Obamacare encourages neither. And two, if it is fully implemented it will certainly fundamentally transform America into something our founders never wanted.

      Maybe it’s a distinction without a difference.

      As to the term “bankrupt our country” I would posit that has already happened. Of course it depends on how one defines bankrupt. IMHO the debt is already too big to ever be paid back. Also we are up against a default if we don’t raise the debt limit. That just compounds the situation. We are already bankrupt.

      And then there is the dynamic of revolution. I don’t mean to be overly dramatic but a law this sweeping and transformative MUST be sold to the nation. It must be debated, designed and agreed upon by a majority representing the entire County. Obamacare was not. For that reason it is doomed to either fail or to be enforced at the point of a gun. That never ends well.

    • Fredlinskip

      Factcheck is a socialist libby site. Please verify all facts through the factual bastions of Rush and Fox “News” so that you might best ascertain the truth in these matters.

      • brettearle

        Yes….yes…of course.

  • OnPointComments

    The last time I had a comment placed in moderation purgatory, it remained there for 3 or 4 days then was posted. It’s happened again tonight.

    • jefe68

      Maybe someone is trying to tell you something.

    • ExcellentNews

      It could be because you are a paid shill for the Koch Brothers and Grover Nordquist. Cut the canned right-wing spam and you can have your place in the forums alongside regular people who care about the USA.

      • pete18

        Hey, OPC, how come you’re getting paid and I’m not? What’s up with that?

        • OnPointComments

          I’m going right now to see if the Koch Brothers check came today.

    • OnPointComments

      I think the moderator doesn’t like to see news stories about E r i c H o l d e r. I read somewhere that you can get around the moderator with spaces.

  • JGC

    Here is something I don’t understand: How is it a victory for the House Republicans to have passed a motion to restore backpay to all the furloughed federal employees? On the face of it, it doesn’t seem to be the kind of conservative fiscal manoeuver that would endear them to their base, i.e. getting something for nothing.

    To be clear, I am in favor of the federal employees being guaranteed their wages. I just don’t understand how this is supported by the ultra-conservative wing of the Republican party.

    Explanations to walk me through this seemingly incoherent thought process?

    • HonestDebate1

      It is only a victory for Republicans in the sense that it shows Republicans did not want this, they did not want the pain. That seems to be the conventional wisdom.

      • JGC

        It does seem to be a mixed bag. I just got an e-mail from the office of my representative (Fitzpatrick, R-PA-8) and he said he voted in favor of HR 3223, the Federal Employee Retroactive Pay Fairness Act. (PA-8 is one of the increasingly rare swing districts.) There are about 6000 federal employees in this voting district. OK, makes sense. He wrote that it passed 407-0 in favor of the resolution. What he didn’t say was that there were 25 abstentions. I was expecting those to be hard line Tea Party activists, but they were comprised of 14 Republicans and 11 Democrats. So while there was Libertarian Duncan of Tennessee and Pittinger from NC-9 voting to abstain, there was also the head-scratching additions of Charlie Rangel and Loretta Sanchez also voting to abstain. All I can think is that this was designed to be pushed as a “bipartisan” vote, and that there was some arm twisting to get what would have been “nay” votes to just go on record as abstentions, with some balance thrown in from sacrificial Democrats.

        So to me this seems to be some kind of opening gambit to try to get some concessions from both sides before Oct. 17.

      • Kath

        Well–these actions received only support from Republicans, so it seems a given that the Republicans DID want this.

    • Fredlinskip

      Is it not a back handed (and pointless IMO) effort to fund some programs and defund others? They want to open the government- only the parts they like..

      • JGC

        It is definitely back-handed! (I refer you to the “Hunger Games” analogy made by Rep. George Miller, D-CA, noted further below.)

    • fun bobby

      because then the ball is in the presidents and dems court

  • ExcellentNews

    I think if this latest attempt to crash the economy fails, the opposition to President Obama will start praying for a giant comet to hit the United States. You know, better dead than having billionaire heirs and heiresses pay 1% more in tax to extend health coverage to the uninsured…

  • Kath

    The ACA contains every compromise the GOP insisted upon. There is a procedure to modify or amend an existing law. If the Radical Right wants the ACA changed, Congress can change it! They haven’t done so, preferring to crow about the Democrats “not compromising”!

  • jefe68

    The Republicans have completely lost their minds.

    Many in G.O.P. Offer Theory: Default Wouldn’t Be That Bad

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/09/us/politics/many-in-gop-offer-theory-default-wouldnt-be-that-bad.html?_r=0

    On Wall Street, among business leaders and in a vast majority of university economics departments, the threat of significant instability resulting from a debt default is not in question. But a lot of Republicans simply do not believe it.

    In my view this is a sign that these people are not fit to be in office. The level of hubris here is beyond the pale.

    • jefe68

      You right wingers are delusional if you think for one minute that a default will not effect your lives.

      What part of the full faith and credit of the United States government has never been questioned
      do you lot not understand?

      Are you that nihilistic?

ONPOINT
TODAY
Jul 25, 2014
Pallbearers carry a coffin out of a military transport plane during a ceremony to mark the return of the first bodies, of passengers and crew killed in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, from Ukraine at Eindhoven military air base, Eindhoven, Netherlands, Wednesday, July 23, 2014. (AP)

Secretary of State Kerry to Israel. Obamacare back in the courts. Mourning as remains of Malaysia Flight 17 victims come home. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Jul 25, 2014
Guest Renee McLeod of Somerville, MA's Petsi pies shows off her wares. (Robin Lubbock / WBUR)

There is nothing more American than a piece of pie. We taste and talk pies.

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Jul 25, 2014
Guest Renee McLeod of Somerville, MA's Petsi pies shows off her wares. (Robin Lubbock / WBUR)

There is nothing more American than a piece of pie. We taste and talk pies.

 
Jul 25, 2014
Pallbearers carry a coffin out of a military transport plane during a ceremony to mark the return of the first bodies, of passengers and crew killed in the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, from Ukraine at Eindhoven military air base, Eindhoven, Netherlands, Wednesday, July 23, 2014. (AP)

Secretary of State Kerry to Israel. Obamacare back in the courts. Mourning as remains of Malaysia Flight 17 victims come home. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
Our Week In The Web: July 25, 2014
Friday, Jul 25, 2014

Why the key to web victory is often taking a break and looking around, and more pie for your viewing (not eating) pleasure.

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The Art Of The American Pie: Recipes
Friday, Jul 25, 2014

In the odd chance that our pie hour this week made you hungry — how could it not, right? — we asked our piemaking guests for some of their favorite pie recipes. Enjoy!

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Hillary Clinton: ‘The [Russian] Reset Worked’
Thursday, Jul 24, 2014

Former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton took time out of her global book tour to talk to us about Russia, the press and the global crises shaking the administration she left two years ago.

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