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Shutdown, Debt Ceiling And The U.S. Economy

With a government shutdown and the debt ceiling up next, we look at how the U.S. economy may react to a season of political upheaval.

Trader Robert McQuade works on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2013. Investors continue to worry about the economy and the growing possibility of a government shutdown. (AP)

Trader Robert McQuade works on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2013. Investors continue to worry about the economy and the growing possibility of a government shutdown. (AP)

After years of recession and struggle, the narrative of the US economy was just perking up lately.  Good fundamentals, we’ve heard.  If we just play our cards right, this country’s economy could rock again.  And then comes Washington’s shutdown blow-out.  Lights out for half the federal government.  The nation’s debt-ceiling and credit rating back on the line.  The United States seen as roaring off the rails.  And the economic impact?  Not good.  Even the conservative US Chamber of Commerce is begging Congress to cut it out.  Up next On Point:  shutdown, crisis, and the US economy.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Nancy Cordes, Congressional correspondent for CBS News. (@NancyCordes)

Trish Regan, anchor on Bloomberg Television and host of Bloomberg’s daily business program “Street Smart.” (@trish_regan)

Justin Wolfers, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. On leave from the University of Michigan’s School of Public Policy, where he teaches economics and public policy. (@justinwolfers)

Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial, a Chicago-based financial services firm. (@dianeswonk)

Steve Stevens, President and CEO of the Northern Kentucky Chamber of Commerce. (@nkychamberprez)

From Tom’s Reading List

Bloomberg News: Shutdown Will Cost U.S. Economy $300 Million a Day, IHS Says – “A partial shutdown of the federal government will cost the U.S. at least $300 million a day in lost economic output at the start, according to IHS Inc. While that is a small fraction of the country’s $15.7 trillion economy, the daily impact of a shutdown is likely to accelerate if it continues as it depresses confidence and spending by businesses and consumers.”

Politico: Government shutdown would threaten fragile economy – “If a shutdown drags on longer than a couple of weeks, pushing close to the Oct. 17 deadline for raising the debt ceiling, it could be far more damaging, possibly even driving an already slow-growing economy back into recession. Combine a shutdown with a default or near-default, and the sluggish economy would almost certainly stall out.”

The Washington Post: Danger to economy worries experts weighing potential government shutdown, default – “A shutdown of a few days might do little damage, but economists, lawmakers and analysts are increasingly bracing for a shutdown that could last a week or more, given the distance between Republicans and Democrats. Such an outcome would suck money out of the economy and spread anxiety among consumers and businesses in a way that is likely to hold back economic activity.”

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  • Yar

    My guess is that the continuing spending resolution is dead. The next battle is the budget along with the debt ceiling. I expect it to take around two weeks and a budget for the year will pass with a debt ceiling high enough that it will get congress past the next election.

    • fun bobby

      when was the last time they passed a budget?

  • RolloMartins

    You know what truly galls? How these congressmen expect to be treated in a dignified way (“Our esteemed representative Louis Gohmert”). It’s time we started throwing shoes. After all, who would you trust more, a congressman or a car salesman?

  • Michiganjf

    ENOUGH of this nonsense that Republicans won some sort of mandate by winning a SLIM majority in the House!

    Out of 435 seats, if a mere 17 flipped, Dems would have the majority!

    That means Republicans LOST the Presidency, they LOST the Senate, and they BARELY won the House… AND THIS EQUALS SOME SORT OF MANDATE???!!

    LOSERS who don’t know how to win, and know even less how to lose with honor or dignity.

    These Republican boneheads really need to pull their heads out of their ____… at least long enough to comb the _____ out of their hair!

    • MrNutso

      And I would note that winning the House was baked in due to gerrymandering.

      • Michiganjf

        Very true!
        They wouldn’t even be close to a Dem majority in the House if they hadn’t spent the last twenty years rigging districts AND VOTES across the country!

    • Potter

      So then this is about warring until they lose. They are at WAR! thinking they can win. They live in a bubble that must be broken.

      exhibit A:

      “It’s getting better for us,” said Representative Raúl R. Labrador, Republican of Idaho. “The moment where Republicans are least popular is right when the government shuts down. But when the president continues to say he’s unwilling to negotiate with the American people, when Harry Reid says he won’t even take things to conference, I don’t think the American people are going to take that too kindly.”…….. NYTimes today

    • Jasoturner

      American Taliban, baby.

    • John_in_Amherst

      also worth pointing out that Obama won re-election by 5 million votes, with the ACA as a major campaign issue

  • lobstahbisque

    The only drawback to the ACA that I can see is that it will prolong the lives of angry, white men,—— THE REPUBLICAN BASE. So I’m for death panels but for this demographic only. Suck on THOSE tentacles.

  • Wm_James_from_Missouri

    The blame game does not serve our country’s populace. Powerful players have been and will be moving into position to take advantage of the situation. This will certainly include international interest. These repetitive and dysfunctional tactics are hurting this nation. Both parties are to blame. When the proposed health care initiative was implemented, a date was set (Oct. 1) as the starting date. You can be sure that both parties were aware of it’s timing in relation to the upcoming debt ceiling vote. Both parties are scheming to achieve their personal agendas, and ‘come out on top’. It is the American people’s interest that are being discarded, thereby forcing the rest of us to the bottom. The Peter to Paul robberies continue. It’s too bad that there isn’t a holy man or woman among them.

  • LinRP

    The only thing that talks and works in Washington is money. The Wall Streeters need to get serious and put the squeeze on their Teabag puppets and make this madness stop. The Teabaggers refuse to govern for the good of the country, but, guaranteed, all their moral outrage, and “conscience,” and extortion about the ACA will vanish like a shooting star if their financing is put at risk. That;s how they will be quelled is my guess. It all begins and ends with filthy lucre in the halls of our government.

    • sickofthechit

      Wall street is to busy arranging all those short sales to transfer a few more points of financial wealth to themselves.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    The t -party Congress full of bluster and fight,
    creates routine crises to raise anger and fright.

    The sweet corporate deals they make in the dark of night,
    are obscured by their bluster over ‘the little guy’s’ plight.

    Looking all folksy, indignant, all principled and right,
    they hamstring the country for personal power and might.

    Making a mocker of democracy they don’t care who feels the bite,
    they play chicken with our future, they’ve become no more than a blight.

    Throwing tantrums like children who can’t see the light,
    They’d rather burn the house down to ashes rather than retreat and seek insight.

    • 1Brett1

      Mark, you are so, so right.
      Although, as you know,
      the usual suspects will tell you “go fly a kite!” They come on this forum
      for no reason other than spite.

      But, try, try as the might,
      their arguments are no more than partisan and trite.

      • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

        Touché!!!

        • fun bobby

          you all are wearing berets at this moment aren’t you?

          • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

            Feeling hip Daddy’O…
            Outta sight!

          • Ray in VT

            Damned Beatniks.

          • fun bobby

            be careful with those clove cigarettes

      • Shag_Wevera

        Cool, cat!

        • TFRX

          Cool cat?

          I disagree: Did Maynard G. Krebs’ poetry rhyme?

    • Shag_Wevera

      I’m snapping my fingers.

  • John Cedar

    Nothing new here regarding government shut down that is still running.
    But on a happy note. Paralyzed guy learns, “never bring a motorcycle to an SUV fight”. On a sad note, so far the assailants are getting a pass on Gang Assault laws and Hate Crime laws, but they do have to answer to the much lessor charge of endangering the welfare of a child.

    • JGC

      I have to hope and imagine that the driver of the Range Rover, Mr. Lien, has proper health insurance to assist him in his recovery. It is not as intuitively clear what kind of health insurance the paralyzed motorcyclist, Mr. Mieses, holds. But if he doesn’t have full coverage, it looks like St.Luke’s-Roosevelt hospital will get stuck holding the bag for thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars in care.

      If only the motorcycle gang had just stayed at home, and spent the day trying to get online to check out Healthcare.gov , instead of terrorizing motorists on the Henry Hudson Parkway, they might not be facing jailtime/outfitting their next motorcycle with paraplegic controls.

    • fun bobby

      its hard to believe an Asian driver got into an auto accident

      • John Cedar

        Das jus racis dawg.
        But ya do gotta wonder…
        why dinnit he jus karate kick all dem bikers?

        • fun bobby

          racist and uncanny

  • JGC

    What would Newt do?

    • Ray in VT

      Diddle a staffer?

      • JGC

        Now, now, now! Newt said third time’s the charm; I have no fear that Newt will step out on the lovely Callista.

        BTW, I heard on VPR this morning that there are some difficulties with Vermonters getting on to vermonthealthconnect. They were saying that CGI Group out of Canada holds the $84-million contract to get this shindig rolling, and CGI has missed a number of milestones. I just want you to know that I just sent a concerned e-mail to cgi.com to tell them to quickly assign additional resources to get this figured out ASAP. I am throwing my full weight as a CGI shareholder (50 shares! LOL) in support of Vermonters who want to get on the exchange!

        • Ray in VT

          I did pop over today to see what the rates for the plans were, and it did run a bit slowly.

          • fun bobby

            were they cheaper than what you paid in 2008?

          • Ray in VT

            I didn’t go all the way through the process to see what it would be like with any credits, and I was looking at the individual side of the site, and not the employee side. Even without any sort of credits or subsidies the cheaper plans were fairly competitive with what I was paying at IBM in 2006-2007.

          • fun bobby

            the calculator I tried did not include data for MA

          • Ray in VT

            There is a calculator right on the VT site.

        • fun bobby

          Canadians eh? that’s all we need

    • TFRX

      Newt? He’d be a Pansy, Coward, Wimp, Traitor, Weakling, Unamerican, Wife-dumping, Spouse-abandoning Fascist.

      Like always.

      • Ray in VT

        Playing the Newt card again today?

        • TFRX

          I’ve dedicated myself to using his playbook. He’s back on TV, CNN has wimped out on whether anything he does with PACs and stuff is a “conflict” of anything.

          So apparently nothing of his conduct is beyond the pale. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

    • fun bobby

      concentrate on what’s important: moonbase 2020. right now we would be 6 years from utopia if we had newt at the helm

  • jimino

    As this matter is discussed, please do not conflate “investors” with “traders”. The vast majority of the latter aren’t even human beings.

    • Ray in VT

      Do you mean that last sentence in relation to the fact that so much trading is done by machines and not people?

      • jimino

        Yes. “Investors” don’t make decisions based on what will happen in the next 5 milliseconds.

        • Ray in VT

          Okay. I had to think about that one for a moment. I thought for a few seconds that you might be running down people on Wall Street.

    • MrNutso

      Or how the impact of the shutdown and future default affects wall street which in turn affects retirement accounts. The vast majority of 401k accounts are in mutual funds. They generally have restrictions on the types and amounts of trades that can be done. This means that you can’t react fast enough to self imposed economic crises to prevent your retirement savings from disappearing.

  • Ed75

    I don’t agree with the government running healthcare, but O-care does something else, it institutionalizes abortion in our healthcare system even farther, in a big way. I don’t think it’s an accident that its implementation coincides with the government shutdown, and I can’t imagine what’s going to happen with the debt ceiling. Whenever a country takes a step toward abortion, bad things happen. (For example, the week of Roe v. Wade, later that week, the U.S. signed its only surrender.)

    • lobstahbisque

      (I thought they cancelled The Twilight Zone decades ago, but I guess I was wrong.)

      • Ed75

        What’s going to happen now will be scarier than the Twilight Zone.

    • Ray in VT

      Well, Obamacare isn’t government running health care, so no need to worry there.

      Did abortion also lead us to pay tribute to the Barbary states? Did abortion also lead us to attempt to negotiate a peace in Vietnam starting in 1968?

    • Shag_Wevera

      pretty far afield today, ed.

    • JGC

      This was also the week that Great Evildoer architect of Medicare and the Great Society, Lyndon Johnson, died. God does truly work in mysterious ways, Ed. You may be on to something…

      Now excuse me while I e-mail my congressman to keep his gummint hands off my entitlements.

      • Ed75

        Yes, President Johnson died of a heart attack late that Sunday night, so the Roe decision wasn’t the leading headline in the papers on Monday.

    • AC

      your pope has instructed you to back away from this line of obsession. why are you not listening?

      • TFRX

        Instructed Ed, personally, like the burning bush or the archangel did?

      • Ed75

        It’s true, but this is the topic we are facing here. The day after Pope Francis gave the interview he met with a college of gynecologists and said ‘Every child that is denied life has the face of Jesus Christ’. The moral teaching of the Church is not it’s first teaching, but it’s there.

    • nj_v2

      I think Ed is really someone from the Onion who is just freelancing here.

  • NewtonWhale

    The Nullification Party

    “How does one party that has lost two presidential elections and a Supreme Court case – as well as two Senate elections – think it has the right to shut down the entire government and destroy the full faith and credit of the United States Treasury to get its way on universal healthcare now? I see no quid pro quo even. Just pure blackmail, resting on understandable and predictable public concern whenever a major reform is enacted. But what has to be resisted is any idea that this is government or politics as usual. It is an attack on the governance and the constitutional order of the United States.

    When ideologies become as calcified, as cocooned and as extremist as those galvanizing the GOP, the American system of government cannot work. But I fear this nullification of the last two elections is a deliberate attempt to ensure that the American system of government as we have known it cannot work. It cannot, must not work, in the mindset of these radicals, because they simply do not accept the legitimacy of a President and Congress of the opposing party. The GOP does not regard the president as merely wrong – but as illegitimate. Not misguided – illegitimate. This is not about ending Obamacare as such (although that is a preliminary scalp); it is about nullifying this presidency, the way the GOP attempted to nullify the last Democratic presidency by impeachment.

    Except this time, of course, we cannot deny that race too is an added factor to the fathomless sense of entitlement felt among the GOP far right. You saw it in birtherism; in the Southern GOP’s constant outrageous claims of Obama’s alleged treason and alliance with Islamist enemies; in providing zero votes for a stimulus that was the only thing that prevented a global depression of far worse proportions; in the endless race-baiting from Fox News and the talk radio right. And in this racially-charged atmosphere, providing access to private healthcare insurance to the working poor is obviously the point of no return.

    Even though the law is almost identical to that of their last presidential nominee’s in Massachusetts, the GOP is prepared to destroy both the American government and the global economy to stop it. They see it, it seems to me, as both some kind of profound attack on the Constitution (something even Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts viewed as a step too far) and, in some inchoate way, as a racial hand-out, however preposterous that is. And that is at the core of the recklessness behind this attack on the US – or at least my best attempt to understand something that has long since gone beyond reason. This is the point of no return – a black president doing something for black citizens (even though the vast majority of beneficiaries of Obamacare will be non-black).

    I regard this development as one of the more insidious and anti-constitutional acts of racist vandalism against the American republic in my adult lifetime. Those who keep talking as if there are two sides to this, when there are not, are as much a part of the vandalism as Ted Cruz. Obama has played punctiliously by the constitutional rules – two elections, one court case – while the GOP has decided that the rules are for dummies and suckers, and throws over the board game as soon as it looks as if it is going to lose by the rules as they have always applied.

    The president must therefore hold absolutely firm. This time, there can be no compromise because the GOP isn’t offering any. They’re offering the kind of constitutional surrender that would effectively end any routine operation of the American government. If we cave to their madness, we may unravel our system of government, something one might have thought conservatives would have opposed. Except these people are not conservatives. They’re vandals.

    This time, the elephant must go down. And if possible, it must be so wounded it does not get up for a long time to come.”

    http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/01/the-nullification-party/

    • fun bobby

      it must be nice to have all the blame for all problems so clearly the fault of the other

      • NewtonWhale

        Not fun at all. But true, in this case.

        The writer, Andrew Sullivan, is a conservative who spent years defending Republicans. He resents the fact that today’s tea party republicans are giving his brand a bad name.

        • fun bobby

          oh yes we have two parties and one is good and the other is evil. make sure you pick one and focus your hate/blame on the other. meanwhile the elites do whatever they want

      • OnPointComments

        It also must be nice to have the reflexive argument that any criticism of the president’s policies is, by definition, racist. I wonder if the rants against Ted Cruz are racist, or have they been rationalized as nonracist because Cruz is a “white Hispanic.”

        • Ray in VT

          Well, Hispanics do get classed as white based upon Iberian descent. That might explain why those birther morons aren’t hounding him, despite the fact that he was clearly born in Canada,

    • William

      Worse case..we have a balanced budget with a small surplus….nobody anywhere in the world, except in DC, would call that a bad idea….

  • Shag_Wevera

    Anyone see Jimmy Kimmel when he did a man on the street segment asking whether people preferred Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act? The results were laughable and sadly predictable. I have an old Italian friend who at times like this would say, “We are all just stupid”.

    • Ray in VT

      It’s pretty established in polling and research that how the question is worded can have very significant impacts upon responses, so it doesn’t surprise me at all.

    • MrNutso

      There’s a great clip of an older gentleman in Kentucky walking up to an information table about the ACA. After talking with a staffer he asks “Is this better than Obamacare?”

    • JGC

      I heard that Stephen Colbert said, “Nothing says ‘unpopular failure’ like so many people wanting to sign up on the first day that they crash the computers.”

      • MrNutso

        I’m waiting for one of these knuckleheads to stand up and accidently speak the truth:

        “See, we told you this law wouldn’t work. So many people wanted to sign up for it that the system crashed.”

      • TFRX

        Hey, didn’t I hear how so many people wanted to sign up for it from Diane (Nixon Grrl) Sawyer last night?

        Oh, wait…no, just that the site was slow.

        Was there really nothing on anyone’s Evning News that the policy our Beltway Inbreds insist nobody could want and won’t work is massively popular with the riffraff?

        • Ray in VT

          The New York exchange site reportedly had some 10 million hits yesterday.

  • alsordi

    The fiat money party is nearing its end.
    It takes a huge and aggressive military around the globe to maintain the value of a paper currency neither backed by gold nor labor.

    And even bread and circus could not distract Americans from objecting to more war in Syria and the trillions $$$$ and thousands of lives already lost in Iraq and Afghanistan. So how can they now continue to protect the petro-dollar?
    Benny Bernanke is gone above and beyond the impossible in running the printing presses while keeping interest rates down for his buddies in the top 5%. How can the unearned US standard of living continue to be funded?

    So now a weakened USA will really start to see the ideological cracks which will expose the wealthy non-producers and exploiters.

  • William

    It is time to cut off Wall Street and that 80 billion a month the taxpayers have been feeding it.

    • fun bobby

      that should be great for the market

      • William

        The short sellers would make a killing.

        • fun bobby

          I wish I was more able to take advantage of that sort of thing

          • William

            You know how it would work out..you dump some money in and then Wham….the market makers take it the opposite way….

          • fun bobby

            I saw the real estate bubble coming in 2002 but had no idea that short selling REOs was even possible.

          • fun bobby

            you think the market will continue to rise?

      • sickofthechit

        Screw “the market” for once.

        • fun bobby

          you don’t have any retirement funds?

  • fun bobby

    market was up yesterday, down a little today. we are heading for a major market correction and we have been for some time now. my broker called me months ago to suggest profit taking.

    • MrNutso

      Having had a fantastic first 3 quarters for my and my wife’s 401K this year, I have parked both in money markets until at least the debt ceiling is addressed.

      • fun bobby

        even without these yahoos in DC the market is headed for a correction

    • Shag_Wevera

      …and Fun Bobby’s broker is e.f. hutton, and e.f. hutton says…

      • fun bobby

        ? is there anyone at this point who thinks the market is not getting ready to shitthebed?

        • Shag_Wevera

          No offense, just popped into my head and thought it was funny. Remember those old commercials?

          • fun bobby

            no might be before my time

  • MrNutso

    Cracks have started to develop in the Republican caucus. 3 SEPA and 1 south Jersey Republicans are willing to vote for a clean CR. They all represent areas that the President won in 2012, so surprisingly they find that their ideology may not be as receptive with their constituents as they thought.

    If I ever get a chance, I have ask them why they voted with their caucus before the shutdown, but are now willing to make a break.

    • TFRX

      What’s a “clean CR”, and why is that on everyone’s lips now?

      Why didn’t Jim Wright bring the government to its knees by insisting on a “clean CR”?

      (Rhetorical questions, I know. Simply about the mediascape: There’s nothing the GOP won’t do which the press won’t turn into a molehill.)

      • MrNutso

        A clean CR is just a cop out. I’m holding out for regular order.

  • lnacpa

    Why aren’t we complaining that CR’s are even necessary? If Congress did its job and passed appropriation bills on time, there could be actual debate and no threats of shutdown.

  • JGC

    My cowardly congressman Mike Fitzpatrick (PA-8) is backing the Republican plan to classify the opening of the National Parks as “essential”.

    How is your congressman spending his day?

    • TFRX

      What a wimp your Congresscritter sounds like. Is there a Natl Park in PA?

      In for a penny, in for a pound, says I. They wanted the shutdown, they get the shutdown.

      These righties jumped out of an airplane with two silkworms and a handful of mulberry leaves. They don’t get to complain that it won’t be a parachute anytime soon.

      • JGC

        National Parks in PA: the Liberty Bell in Philly, Gettysburg National Cemetary, the Joe Biden Birthplace National Historic Site in Scranton…
        wait a minute; I was just told to scratch that last one. For now…

        • Ray in VT

          On the plus side, the NAAWP won’t be able to rally at Gettysburg because of the shutdown.

    • MrNutso

      My coward is your neighbor Pat Meehan. I’m sure he’s in lock step with Mike. At least both are finally willing to break with their caucus. I could still be rep’d by Gerlach who is sticking to the party line.

  • fun bobby

    why does your child feel the federal government is so important for his well being? you should tell them that whenever this happens those people get paid later

    • TFRX

      Because she’s a moocher, a taker, a 47 percenter, and Burkhart herself is worried that she can’t drive her Cadillac with her young buck to the Welfare Office and get Kobe beef with her food stamps.

      Really, you better step up your troll game. You’re slipping below your usual low bar.

      • fun bobby

        but I don’t aspire to be like you

    • OnPointComments

      Her child is probably worried about who’s taking care of Julia.

  • Coastghost

    Wonder how much “coercive voluntarism” will be brought to bear upon 18-to-30 year olds over the next five years to perform their patriotic duty to “save” the Affordable Care Tax Act by enrolling for the coverage so many of them will continue to see they have no need for and no interest in paying for?
    Wonder what kind of incentives were built into ACTA legislation for employers to extract patriotic duty from millennials or to tempt them with levels of health insurance coverage most will not avail themselves of substantively by age thirty?
    Can hardly wait to learn how millennials will learn to construe “rational self-interest” when confronted with such options.

    • Karl Prahl

      Go to Target or Wal-Mart. You’ll see all that rational self-interest in it’s short-sighted glory. If they make big enough signs with Drake, Miley Cyrus etc. the majority of millennials will line up to sign up to be “cool”, just like the Greatest Generation and the Boomers continue to line up.

      • fun bobby

        if only we could get these guys into a walmart so they could see what real merica is about

    • jimino

      Hopefully most of them will not embrace the newly minted so-called conservative principle of being freeloaders in our health care system.

    • MrStang

      Ayn Rand, Hypocrite?
      Legendary opponent of “welfare state” received Social Security and probably Medicare

      By Patia Stephens

      http://www.patiastephens.com/2010/12/05/ayn-rand-received-social-security-medicare/

      • Karl Prahl

        Did she pay into those programs? Did her earnings from those books and the corresponding tax imposed on their sale out-weight the monetary cost of her SS or medicare?
        hmm. Getting something you paid for. How un-American.

        • MrStang

          “An interview with Evva Pryror, a social worker and consultant to Miss Rand’s law firm of Ernst, Cane, Gitlin and Winick verified that on Miss Rand’s behalf she secured Rand’s Social Security and Medicare payments which Ayn received under the name of Ann O’Connor (husband Frank O’Connor).

          As Pryor said, “Doctors cost a lot more money than books earn and she could be totally wiped out” without the aid of these two government programs. Ayn took the bail out even though Ayn “despised government interference and felt that people should and could live independently… She didn’t feel that an individual should take help.”

          But alas she did and said it was wrong for everyone else to do so. Apart from the strong implication that those who take the help are morally weak, it is also a philosophic point that such help dulls the will to work, to save and government assistance is said to dull the entrepreneurial spirit.

          In the end, Miss Rand was a hypocrite but she could never be faulted for failing to act in her own self-interest.”

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-ford/ayn-rand-and-the-vip-dipe_b_792184.html

          • TFRX

            To paraphrase Lorenz Hart, some things are “too good for the average man”. But for a master of the universe, they deserve everything they can grasp. In the name of Objectivism.

          • Karl Prahl

            As Pryor said, “Doctors cost a lot more money than books earn and she could be totally wiped out”
            I don’t see sources to quantify this claim.
            Pretty sure Tom Clancy, RIP, earns enough from his books to pay a doctor. Did Rand do so poorly in sales? Really?

        • MrNutso

          You can opt out of social security.

  • TFRX

    Republicans “can’t back down gracefully” at this point, per Cordes?

    The right blew through the guard rail of “gracefully” ages ago.

  • Coastghost

    Where’s Jeremiah Wright when you need or want someone to invoke the Deity’s curse and wrath upon Obamacare?

    • Ray in VT

      Maybe he’s meeting with Pat Robertson to discuss whether or not the impending armageddon is due to gays and lesbians. You know, one of the reasons that 9/11 happened.

    • jimino

      You know you don’t have to post every inane thought that pops into your head. Then again, maybe you have an affliction that compels you to do so. If so hopefully treatment therefor is covered under the insurance available to you under the ACA.

      • Coastghost

        Oh you know: speaking truth to power and all that stuff . . . .

      • fun bobby

        actually social media is so popular because every time your post something you get a little shot of dopamine. its like crack

        • lobstahbisque

          That makes you a severe crack head dear….

          • fun bobby

            pot, meet kettle

          • lobstahbisque

            Glue, meet rubber

          • lobstahbisque

            glue, meet rubber

  • William

    So big business is worried their sugar daddy, big government, might not be passing out the billions to them? Yeah..lets line up with those guys….

  • JGC

    What would the Koch Brothers do?

    • Ray in VT

      Surely not fund a misinformation campaign.

    • TFRX

      Do?

      I’m thinking “did already: Ever consider the possibility that the Kochs are assembling an arsenal, mercenaries, and minting their own gold and silver coins somewhere in the mountain west?

      They really don’t seem to have much use for the riff-raff, for American civilization, do they?

      • Ray in VT

        I think that they are funding those 300,000 Russians in Georgia.

    • fun bobby

      fund studies showing global warming is real?

    • MrNutso

      They have done it. Their backing of Teabaggers has resulted in this mess. Other than a slow down in making even more obscene amounts of money, their good.

      • JGC

        Yes, the Koch Brothers “the 1-percent financiers of the Tea Party”. I guess they see any temporary disruption of Koch Industries as just the price of doing business.

  • Bigtruck

    It is a shame, the poor government workers and their families being at the whim of such small minds. Our whole country for that matter.
    I can’t believe the Congress still gets paid, what could be less essential than them.

    • fun bobby

      they will get paid later don’t worry

    • MrNutso

      The President should have closed the capital, the white house, congressional offices, etc., turned of the water and electric, sent staff and security home. He should have moved out to a hotel on his own nickel with no secret security and said when Republicans refund the government, I’ll have the lights turned back on.

      • fun bobby

        I think send all the prison guards and TSA agents home as well

    • thequietkid10

      Not to mention, most government workers make a better living then their private sector counter parts. Your right though, Congress has a way of passing laws that don’t apply to Congress.

      • TFRX

        Not to mention your “stats” about the “overpaid public workers” compared to private sector.

        (Edited for clarity.)

        • Karl Prahl

          Are you saying the revolving door of private business and policy makers does not exist? Really?

          • jimino

            So you’re saying people leave the private sector to go to better government jobs? If not, you must agree with TFRX.

          • fun bobby

            this is not the drone you are looking for

            http://diggerdigital.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/rumsfeld.jpg

          • Karl Prahl

            That’s not at all what I said. Why are government jobs “guaranteed” but, you know, textile manufacturing jobs are not.
            Don’t we all need clothes?

          • TFRX

            Government jobs are “guaranteed”? That’s rich.

          • Karl Prahl

            What’s the problem with the shut down then? Those jobs are not guaranteed. Go get new jobs if you’re on furlow. Government service not available? Clearly an opportunity for an entrepreneur.

          • TFRX

            Can someone explain to this person the difference between a “service” and a business?

            Hint: The Highway Department loses money every year. Let’s privatize the highways.

            Chump.

          • Karl Prahl

            We do. Don’t see those toll roads?

          • TFRX

            And the tolls don’t pay for it all. (Nor does the gas tax.) And that means it “loses money”. It’s a service.

          • jimino

            “revolving door of private business and policy makers ” . . . “textile manufacturing jobs” . . . . Does not compute.

        • thequietkid10

          Here’s some stats for you

          http://www.fedsdatacenter.com/federal-pay-rates/ Your typical clerk makes just under 30,000 a year, which is better then most private sector secretaries, there is even a Janitor on that list that makes 36,000 a year? How many janitors do you know that make that much? And those are the low paying jobs.

          • fun bobby

            there are toll booth workers in MA who make over 100K

          • thequietkid10

            Wow, I’ve heard that the toll booth workers in New York make 12 dollars an hour. And I though those people were overpaid.

          • TFRX

            You really shouldn’t believe Fun Bobby.

            Not that he’s not trustworthy, but you shouldn’t follow him out of burning building.

          • fun bobby

            The Massachusetts Turnpike Authority is getting negative local press for the number of its workers that earn more than $100k/year, while the Turnpike faces financial difficulty. The Boston Herald having obtained the payroll under freedom of information report that 43 Turnpike employees grossed over$100k.

          • nj_v2

            How many hours did they work for those salaries?

            How many total toll employees are there?

            What’s the average salary?

            Oh, yeah, the tabloid rag Herald doesn’t tell you that.

          • fun bobby

            are any of those things relevant? even with overtime or what have you is there any reason to pay someone 100K a year to hand out slips of paper?

          • nj_v2

            Yeah, why should workers breathing concentrated, toxic exhaust fumes; risking vehicle crashes; and performing repetitive motions for hours at a time make a living wage?

          • Ray in VT

            Toll booth workers or workers for the Authority?

          • fun bobby

            it was a big kerfuffle a few years back. actual toll takers were making 6 figures.

          • Ray in VT

            I did see one article that referenced the 43 number, but it said “None of the toll collectors so far as we can see make it to $100k/yr.”

            http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/3649

            I can’t vouch for the veracity of that statement, but that is what I found.

          • fun bobby

            that article did seem odd. I guess their calculations had it at 75k for some workers. what I remember from 5 years ago was that there were like a dozen or so toll takers who were making 6 figures. either way it seems like much more than anyone could imagine paying a toll taker in the private sector should they exist.

      • OnPointComments

        I bet that when John Beale retired after not working for a substantial portion of his tenure at the EPA, that a replacement filled his position even though he hadn’t done any work. Beale even got credited with his 13 years of nonwork when his retirement pay was calculated.

        http://www.justice.gov/usao/dc/news/2013/sep/13-339.html

        • Ray in VT

          So you are saying that he didn’t show up for work at all for 13 years?

  • TFRX

    Marsha Blackburn on Fox News?

    Wow, that promises to be a vortex of uninformation.

  • Risa Nicholson

    So “the American people may learn they can live without so much government’? Like thousands of infants on the WIC program will learn they can live without formula? Federal workers can live without paychecks? Headstart parents can live without daycare?

    Really? It’s scary how so many of the people making these decisions have NO concept of how real people live.

  • TFRX

    “Imagine the debt ceiling being breached for a minute or a day”, Tom?

    Remember when there was a Republican in the White House and the Debt Ceiling wasn’t akin to a C4 vest strapped to the maniacs’ chest?

  • William

    Warren forgot we are 17 trillion in debt….

  • MrNutso

    Wow, Tom Clancy died.

    • Ray in VT

      What?

    • JGC

      Watch out: Ed is trying right now how to connect the dots between Tom Clancy’s death, abortion and the introduction of Obamacare this week…

    • HonestDebate1

      Oh man.

  • toc1234

    Perhaps explore why Warren is for every tax under the sun yet is against the medical device tax? oh wait, MA is a big producer of those things and they gave her a bundle in donations…

  • Rich

    Affordable Care is now law. The House, the Republicans, and the Tea Party Wack-Jobs have no business holding the operation of the entire government (in whole or in little politically-select pieces) hostage. Hold the line, President Obama.

  • toc1234

    great the Brookings view. couldn’t see this coming. Tom probably has a hotline to that joint…

    • Ray in VT

      They probably couldn’t get a Cato guy. They’re all sheltering so that the death panels won’t get them.

  • Coastghost

    16 March 2006: “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. … I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.”
    Senator Barack H. Obama (D-IL)

  • Ray in VT

    I wonder if other countries are as puzzled by all of this as some were when an American President got impeached due to BJs.

    • lobstahbisque
    • HonestDebate1

      Yea, it was just a harmless BJ, that’s all. Paula Jones had no rights under the Constitution at all to defend herself. It was all about the BJ and nothing else.

      You guys are amazing.

      • Ray in VT

        The BJ was an excuse to try to get rid of a guy that they couldn’t beat at the polls. Why couldn’t that liar Bush have gotten a BJ? Then we could have impeached him, but gotten stuck with Cheney.

        • HonestDebate1

          That’s just bizarre Ray. The President is not above the law.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s bizarre. I never said that he was or is.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yes you did. Clinton was not impeached for a BJ. Saying so ignores the reality of his high crime. He used the full weight of the government to attempt to keep Paula Jones from defending herself in a court of law. I think it was a judge he appointed, I want to say her name was Susan Webb, that ruled the Lewinski evidence was admissible. Then he lied under oath. He lied to his cabinet. He lied to the American people.

          • Ray in VT

            No, I’m pretty sure that I did not, unless you see some invisible words that I did not even know that I wrote. If it had nothing to do with the President getting a BJ, which he construed as not being sexual relations, then why spend so much time and effort focusing on it. They couldn’t nail him on Whitewater, so they had to find something.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then.

          • Ray in VT

            If only they coulda got W and Cheney on the stand under oath to defend their less than true statements regarding Iraq.

          • HonestDebate1

            And Hillary and Gore, and Albright and Reid and Pelosi and Kerry and Berger and Levin and Daschel and the entire UN. Why do you suppose they didn’t get them on the stand? After all, there no difference between being wrong and lying according to you. You can fall back on pretending “to create a false or misleading impression” means the same thing as “saying something that is false or misleading”. You can do that by ignoring the word that is there. Then you can pretend your one personal interpretation is universal. In that way you never have to explain the difference between lying and being wrong. It doesn’t matter how many times you are asked to clarify. You will never ever ever clarify because you can’t. Maybe that’s why you still stew about the most basic of truths: It is impossible to lie without knowing you are lying.

            In fairness you are now backtracking by saying “less than true statements” instead of lies. Odd that. Obviously saying something that in hindsight turns out to be less than true is much different than lying. I’m sure you disagree.

            I don’t care.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s bizarre. I haven’t claimed that “there no difference between being wrong and lying”. I have merely provided dictionary definitions that refute your blatant lie.

            Let’s put them on the stand, and then we can ask them, as well as do some research into their statements, as to whether or not they were provided with information showing the falseness of the Bush administration claims. I think that that is pretty key.

            Well, with my “less than true statements” I was trying to be kind, so let me rephrase so as to help you better understand the facts of the matter:

            “If only they coulda got W and Cheney on the stand under oath to defend their lies regarding Iraq.”

            Also, your “truth” isn’t supported by the dictionary. But keep on lying to me. I don’t care.

  • MrStang

    LITMUS TEST
    I ask anyone.
    Marsha Blackburn or Elizabeth Warren to represent your interests in government?

  • jimino

    To call the Dem leadership, including the President, poor negotiators, would be a profound understatement.

    • sickofthechit

      I take it you are referring to their tendency to negotiate with themselves first by representing both sides of the argument, then coming to a reasonable compromise internally, then offering that compromise as their first bargaining position?
      charles a. bowsher

  • TFRX

    “Our government needs to be put under control, and that’s what the Tea Party is for”, says caller Jeff at :33m.

    This guy really needs to be brought up to speed on what his precious Tea Party has done in Congress.

    (Women, hold on to your uteri.)

  • TomK_in_Boston

    In 1860 the disloyal red states tried to leave and we stopped them with a horrendous war. Now they want to stay and ruin the USA for all but the oligarchs. Can we just kick them out now? If they thought they could secede, there must be a way to reverse the logic and throw them out. Then they cd have their 3′rd world theo/aristo/cracy and we could move along with the times in peace. No power and wtr form gvt dams for their AC bubbles.

    • TFRX

      Nope.

      If they want to leave, let them do it during the next reign of compulsive patriotism don’t you love your country you goddamn commie? Republican presidency.

    • William

      You guys still like that “stars and bars” flag which is amazing to many of us.

  • Coastghost

    And who introduced the “maximalization of uncertainty” to the US economy but Obama and his Democratic enablers with their unilateral ACTA powergrab?

  • SuziVt

    I think it was yesterday, that a caller, tweeter, or in an email, it was said that the cause was so many citizens were grossly uninformed. One guest said there was actually too much information out there. I absolutely know that the puplic is uninformed. Most people don’t want to clutter their lives with the details of government. It imposes into their favorite TV shows & other important activities in life. On the other hand, we have been bombarded with analysis of every minute of every single sneeze or word in Washington. One day these “experts” are calling out there predictions of the government, politicians, or the market’s response to any given possible development. Of course someone from these opposing sides has to get it wrong. Then the next week or day, they’re on the air again being asked for another prediction based on what they didn’t think would happen in the first place. Really, I think talk show hosts, producers, stations, & pundits are the ones gaining from this endless guessing of the whys, whats, & whens. The listeners are constantly tuning in because they think maybe they really may learn something new.
    Then there are the Rush shows out there & those that love to float rumors, half truths, lies, & out of context statements. I won’t say that the democrats haven’t been guilty & shame on those that are, but the vast majority are the tea party faction that believe the end justifies the means. With all of the lies about the ACA being infiltrated into every possible venue, there are lazy citizens that are going to believe them without checking into the credibility before they join in to cry “The sky is falling!”
    The democrats & Obama have not done an adequate job explaining Obamacare or addressing the liars & exposing them for what they are.
    So with the complexity of any health care plan, let alone a brand new one, the bombardment of misinformation, the republicans being owned by the tea party as they look ahead to their next election, & the apathy of many citizens about government until they really need it, it’s not hard to see how the shut down could have happened.
    It used to be there were only a few news sources from which to choose. Most of them had to clear their sources & prove the information to be true. Then let the reader decide what to believe. Now you have endless so-called news shows telling everyone what to believe. Not only that, often, their not even interested in the validity of their statements, as long as they support that programs ideology. Plus you have politicians that want to get on the gravy train &/or are there & desperately want to stay. Then you have many many selfish citizens from all walks of life, that have decent health care & do not want to concern themselves with those that can not afford any health care through no fault of their own. I never hear anyone addressing them, perhaps because it may touch upon part of their fan base and I guess ratings are a terrible thing to lose. Shame on selfish people.

  • sickofthechit

    The House Tea Party Repugnicans are nothing more than a group of BLACKMAILERS. It is blackmailers who make demands of others. The victims are the American People. Those being blackmailed are not at fault because they refuse to negotiate with blackmailers over already passed and litigated laws!

    • William

      Not really….the federal government is not the country…life goes on….shutting down some parts of the federal government is actually a “Pelosi” moment…”shut down part of the government to find out what is in the government”….

      • sickofthechit

        I don’t know about you, but I am an American Citizen and no matter how badly I think the various agencies of the Federal Government are operating I do not support shutting it down for what are purely political reasons. If I am dissatisfied, I write the President (Obama), my CONgressmen (McConnell, Paul), my “Representative” (Barr) and my local editors. I vote and volunteer in campaigns. Most of all I am mature enough and intelligent enough to realize that this destructive behavior screams out for nationwide recall elections. Some states do it, other countries do it, why can’t we? charles a. bowsher

        • William

          Shutting down for political or just because we can’t afford big government? The feds bring in 2.5 trillion and is on track to spend 3.4 trillion. The private sector can’t operate like that so why not apply the same rules? Can we at least take a ten percent cut? After 12 years of growth in government programs, departments, employees, etc…just a ten percent cut. You have to admit with all that big government prior to 9-11 none of it prevented 9-11 and got rewarded for their failure with bigger budgets and more employees. Why reward failure?

          • hennorama

            William – your info as to Federal Revenues and Spending are a bit off. Per the CBO’s Monthly Budget Review for August 2013:

            Preliminary Fiscal Year 2013 (which ended Sept. 30, 2013) data:

            Revenue $2.472 Trillion
            Spending $3.225 T
            Deficit – $0.753 T

            The figures above are in current dollars, and are not inflation-adjusted. When converted to Constant (FY 2005) Dollars (using a Composite Deflator of 1.194), the figures would be:

            Revenue $2.070 Trillion
            Spending $2.701 T
            Deficit – $0.631 T

            See:
            http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44552

            As to your question “The private sector can’t operate like that so why not apply the same rules?” – this concept is quite similar to all the “If the US was a household…” nonsense from Reps. Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor and their ilk during the 2012 Presidential campaign and earlier. Please allow me to repeat an earlier post, from the “Fiscal Cliff” discussions of 2012:

            “Each time I hear or read “If the US was a household…” I’m reminded of a June 2011 clip from The Daily Show with Jon Stewart, titled “Cantor Won’t?” [unfortunately, the video clip is unavailable on thedailyshow.com at present.]

            “Here’s the relevant quote from Stewart:

            “Actually – you know what, uh … that actually sounds like good common sense until you think about it for two seconds. And then it just seems like bullsh*t masquerading as common sense.”

            “I’m also reminded of the writings of L. Randall Wray, from 2010 (a shout-out to the poster who originally provided the link). He said, in part and edited for brevity:

            “A sovereign government bears no obvious resemblance to a household. Let us enumerate some relevant differences.

            1. The US federal government is 221 years old, if we date its birth to the adoption of the Constitution … I don’t know any head of household with such an apparently indefinitely long lifespan. This might appear irrelevant, but it is not. When you die, your debts and assets need to be assumed and resolved. There is no “day of reckoning”, no final piper-paying date for the sovereign government. Nor do I know any household with the power to levy taxes, to give a name to — and issue — the currency we use, and to demand that those taxes are paid in the currency it issues.”

            Much much more from Mr. Wray here:

            http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/02/wray-the-federal-budget-is-not-like-a-household-budget-%E2%80%93-here%E2%80%99s-why.html

  • toc1234

    Tom why not explore this quote from 2006: “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. … I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” what sort of tea party nut said that???? wait a sec, that guy in currently in the WH…

    • TFRX

      So, this person brought the whole shebang to a grinding halt, or simply voted against it?

      • toc1234

        so BO was just grandstanding? wasting time?

        • TFRX

          You really don’t know much about the Senate, do you?

      • lobstahbisque

        Yes, he did it with the voodoo powers he acquired in Kenya.

    • lobstahbisque

      Coastghost got there before you. That means your message is spam.

      • toc1234

        from 2006: “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. government can’t pay its own bills. … I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” – Sen Obama
        so is this spam squared?

        • TFRX

          Hey, trollbot: Did he threaten to filibuster the living shat out of everything then? Or simply vote against it?

          • toc1234

            so he voted only b/c his was an extreme position and he knew it was a throw away vote? well, I guess that’s a step up from all his Present votes…

          • TFRX

            You’ve hit bottom pretty quickly.

    • HonestDebate1

      And that was over $5 trillion ago.

    • MrNutso

      Yeah, the nerve of protesting 2 unpaid for wars, medicare expansion and massive tax cuts for the wealthy.

    • jimino

      So during a period that the wrong-wingers point to as a booming economy, we purposely REFUSED to require our self-proclaimed patriotic citizens, to whom all gain created by our economy was going, to actually pay for sending their troops of to a war they so vociferously supported as a battle for our very existence. To the contrary, we REDUCED their obligation.

      Make more sense now?

  • ToyYoda

    The tea party are motivated to fix our government overspending by ironically playing chicken with our short term financial obligations. They will most likely say we can have a short term pain, or alot worse pain in the future if we don’t get our spending under control.

    Please ask your guest, how legitimate is their concern?

    • MrNutso

      When the tea party wins both house of congress and the presidency then they can f@ck the country.

    • William

      Should we really trust the “wizards of wall street” and the parade of “economists” they bring out? These are the same ones that destroyed the world economy with their junk bonds years ago and recently with their housing bonds. We have pumped 80 billion a month into Wall Street for four or five years now with little if anything to show for it. Now they are preaching to us about economics?

  • TFRX

    Tom, when Senator Obama spoke against the debt ceiling in 2006 , did he threaten to shut down the entire government?

    • MrNutso

      Also, I guess since Obama voted against it in 2006, it makes todays situation okay.

  • Potter

    That guy Jeff who called who sits in the middle has no idea of how this government has worked and maybe wants a government that makes laws tentatively, that agrees to spending, that may or may not get funded. This is crazy!

    • fun bobby

      there have been many unfunded mandates

      • Potter

        Unfunded mandates are from the federal government down to the local level. The government not funding what it legislates that IT must do is entirely different. Unfunded mandates usually have to do with a constitutional issue applying to all states. Government not funding itself is self destructive, self negation.

        Local governments can complain and possibly get help funding federal laws. And THAT is where the federal funds are also needed.

      • Potter

        read up on unfunded mandates and reforms

        • fun bobby

          I don’t think they are good just not unusual

          • Potter

            What is happening is not about unfunded mandates. it’s about whether this country can govern itself. Don’t trivialize this.

          • fun bobby

            a few parks, a panda cam and some museams are closed, seems trivial at best. I think you are getting too caught up in the hype. look out your window, the sun is out and the birds are singing. everything is going to be ok

          • Potter

            as long as you have people fighting for your and my well being…. what an attitude! Get a life!

          • fun bobby

            who are these people and where are they fighting for my well being? my well being is not in another country. killing people in another country does not benefit me. the standing army is an abomination.

          • Potter

            Get a life- there ought to be a limit on how many comments a person can make—even a generous number would not be enough for this noise.

          • fun bobby

            perhaps they should only be allowed to respond to one post one time

  • Jasoturner

    Let’s just hope we can find some republican apologists to keep this discussion “fair and balanced”…

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Congress needs to do their job: pass a budget, and pass appropriations. If they vote for spending that requires borrowing, then they have to vote to allow the debt ceiling go up by enough to cover the spending they approved.

    “This” Congress has to abide by the laws passed by the “previous” Congress. The law is the law.

    • fun bobby

      when was the last time they passed a budget?

      • MrNutso

        In response to the House demanding regular order the Senate passed a budget. Then the House refused to follow regular order by naming a conference to negotiate with the Senate. I wonder why? Hint the key word is negotiate.

        • sickofthechit

          I think you mean the dirty word “compromise”?

    • William

      Not really…Obama is picking and choosing which people have to obey Obama-care law..he gave his business buddies a 1 year waiver and then gave Congress a financial bribe to pay for their share of Obama care. That would appear to the average person as breaking the law. If the unions don’t like this “law” how can the rest of us go along with it?

      • TFRX

        You’re basically lying about this. Get better media sources.

      • OnPointComments

        He also, by executive fiat, unconstitutionally changed laws passed by Congress.

        • Ray in VT

          Are you referring to the mandate delay?

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s just the tip of the iceberg.

          • Ray in VT

            Or the tip of what Jon Stewart called the day after the eleciton “Bullsh!t mountain”.

  • John_in_Amherst

    “Blood on everyone’s hand”? REALLY? This is somewhere between sedition and treason on the part of the Teabaggers. Congress members take a loyalty oath, which is now being violated to gain a result they could not get through the electoral process.

    Treason:

    1. The offense of acting to overthrow one’s government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
    2.
    a violation of allegiance to one’s sovereign or to one’s state.
    3.
    the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

    • John_in_Amherst

      I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the
      Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
      domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I
      take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose
      of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of
      the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

  • hennorama

    Clearly everyone hates Obamacare:

    “Obamacare Demand Signals Potential Success for Exchanges” – businessweek.com

    “Demand is strong as Obamacare enrollment starts in California” – latimes.com

    “Obamacare Health Exchange Websites Had More Than 10 Million Unique Visitors On Day One – businessinsider.com

    “Massive Demand as Obamacare Opens for Texans” – nbcdfw.com

    • OnPointComments

      I hope when people sign up for the ACA it doesn’t require any type of ID to prove who you are. We know how terrified much of the electorate is of IDs.

      • hennorama

        Bananas and kiwis.

        • OnPointComments

          Perhaps the government can kill two birds with one stone. Have people prove their identity to sign up for ACA, then use the ACA ID to vote. Problem solved for both the bananas and kiwis.

          • Ray in VT

            Then we can require them to use those IDs, which we can tie to criminal and mental health records, when making any firearms purchase. Add another mango. Who says that we can’t come together and solve things?

          • hennorama

            OPC – good luck getting a de facto national ID through Congress, and good luck using “the ACA ID to vote.” You do realize that both citizens and legal residents, as well as millions of below-voting-age children are covered by the PPACA, right?

      • sickofthechit

        Or of any kind of registration.

      • HonestDebate1

        Illegal aliens are covered, Joe Wilson was right.

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, He — please again allow a quote from VP Joe Biden:

          “With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarkey!”

          • HonestDebate1

            So Obamacare requires proof of citizenship?

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He — is that what I wrote? Is that what you wrote? So many questions …

    • nj_v2

      Sure, hold a gun to someone’s head and force them to buy the least worst available crappy product, and you have “demand.”

      Whoo hoo, party time!

      • hennorama

        nj_v2 – no one is forced to buy anything, and there are multiple health insurance coverage options available. There is definitely demand, especially from those currently uninsured.

        Obamasurance is far from perfect, but it is a welcome change from the clearly inadequate prior system.

        • nj_v2

          No, not “forced,” just pay ever-increasing penalties.

          Yeah, multiple options…expensive catastrophic plans, or unaffordable fuller coverage plans. All with a high percentage of the premium going to cover salaries and profits of insurance executives.

          The long-term effects of this bill—the most important of which will be the deepening entrenchment of insurance interests which will make any kind of public plan nearly impossible—will outweigh the benefits.

          And there’s no effective control for costs.

          • hennorama

            nj-v2 — no argument from me as to some of the potential problems that you detail.

            As previously stated, Obamasurance is far from perfect.

  • nj_v2

    Long history of Rethuglicons holding budget hostage to right-wing agenda items:

    http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/09/30/2699221/21-things-republicans-demanded-shutdown-default/

    21 Things Republicans Have Demanded In Exchange For Not Shutting Down The Government Or Tanking The Global Economy

    Since the Republicans took over the House of Representatives in 2011, they have repeatedly attempted to use the prospect of a government shutdown or a debt default as leverage. A shutdown would furlough close to a million federal workers and cut off essential services for millions more Americans, while a default on U.S. debt, even according to Speaker John Boehner, coulddevastate the global economy. While the recent debate has focused on Obamacare, that is just the latest in a series of demands made by Republicans. The following is a list of things that have been, at various times, demanded by Republicans under threat of a government shutdown or default:

    1. A balanced budget amendment [Link]

    2. Approving Keystone XL [Link]

    3. Eliminating funding for Planned Parenthood [Link]

    4. Medicare privatization [Link]

    5. Tax reform, as outlined by Paul Ryan [Link]

    6. The REINS Act, which would require Congress to approve significant federal regulations [Link]

    7. Means-testing Social Security [Link]

    8. Defunding Obamacare [Link]

    9. Allowing employers to eliminate insurance coverage for birth control [Link]

    10. An expansion of off-shore drilling [Link]

    11. Preserving all the Bush tax cuts [Link]

    12. “Trillions” in budget cuts [Link]

    13. Slashing funding for food stamps [Link]

    14. Protecting mountaintop strip mining [Link]

    15. Stripping the EPA of authority to regulate greenhouse gases [Link]

    16. Loosening regulation on coal ash [Link]

    17. Delaying Obamacare implementation by one year [Link]

    18. Repealing a tax on medical devices [Link]

    19. Eliminating Social Service Block Grants [Link]

    20. Expanding drilling on federal lands [Link]

    21. Restricting the child tax credit [Link]

    In just over 2 years, Republicans have been successful in extracting around $1.7 trillion in budget cuts or 72% of the total deficit reduction over that period. Under President Bush the government never shut down and the debt limit was raised five times with bipartisan support and without conditions.

    • MrNutso

      This sums it up pretty well.

    • William

      What is wrong with a balanced budget? Obama endorsed and bragged about drilling on taxpayer (federal) lands, Obama has endorsed entitlement reform, these are good starting points..you have to admit..we have not seen much come from the administration other than bigger spending and “not so ready shovel ready jobs”.

      • nj_v2

        There you go, defaulting to knee-jerk partisanship.

        • TFRX

          I was gonna say he is a “selective media amnesia sufferer”, but your point is valid also.

        • William

          Sure, Obama is a knee-jerk partisan but hey..he is from Chicago and that is how they roll there. Some people would even say Obama is just “messing” with us…but who knows for sure…

  • MrStang

    “Rand often spoke of moral absolutism, saying “There can be no compromise on basic principles,” but the realities of aging and illness seem to have softened her stance. Social Security, and perhaps Medicare, allowed Rand and her husband to maintain their quality of life, remain in their apartment and live out their final years with dignity.”

    http://www.patiastephens.com/2010/12/05/ayn-rand-received-social-security-medicare/

    • TFRX

      Dignity?

      I thought dignity was something that Objectivists had in their hearts, and therefore didn’t need mere possessions, hot food, indoor sleeping and plumbing, and such.

  • Coastghost

    You mean, THAT Cincinnati IRS office?

    • TFRX

      Uh, what one?

      The one for the failed fake “scandal”?

      • Coastghost

        The one that was taking orders from IRS Central in DC, the one Lois Lerner used to deal with . . .

        • sickofthechit

          The one whose director was appointed by Bush?

    • Ray in VT

      The one that was on the look out for ACORN successors?

      • toc1234

        if you’re looking for where the ACORN hacks went, they are now handling your personal healthcare info (including SSNs) in new ‘jobs’ (ie pork payback) as Navigators… that should go well…

        • TFRX

          I’m just wondering what kind of comedy club your lame-ass jokes get laughs in.

          Do you think everything is a FoxNation or Wingnut Daily forum?

          • toc1234

            this stuff is only funny/sad b/c its true.

          • TFRX

            …says another right-winger with no sense of satire or media.

          • toc1234

            please stop lashing out via your ad hominems. it really brings the whole board down. thanks.

          • TFRX

            Hilarious, from the likes of you.

            I’m not lashing. I’m yawning at you lame attempts, and chuckling. (There ought to be a word…)

            Why does every right-wing troll have some app that makes the think they have a direct line to my status? What do pixels show on their screens that it doesn’t on mine?

          • HonestDebate1

            There’s nothing funny about corruption.

          • TFRX

            There’s nothing funny about that fake ACORN scandal.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighy then.

          • Ray in VT

            Or the fake Benghazi scandal.

          • Karl Prahl

            Or the fake underwear bomber scandal. The American Turkish Council scandal. The College of the America’s scandal.
            The Tuskegee experiment scandal.
            The MKUltra/Naomi scandal.
            The Diem brothers scandal.
            The Gulf of Tonkin scandal.
            The BCCI scandal
            The Savings and Loan scandal.
            The housing bubble scandal.
            The Enron scandal.
            The Crime of ’73 scandal.
            The Babies in the incubators Kuwaiti scandal.
            The Bandar-Bush scandal.
            The 9/11 Saudi flights scandal.
            Not funny.

          • Ray in VT

            Don’t forget Teapot Dome.

          • sickofthechit

            Please correct your spelling. It is FauxNation!

    • John_in_Amherst

      the same one that also targeted groups w/ “progressive” in their names

  • toc1234

    What’s telling here is that Tom had no idea about that vote by Sen Obama in 2006… that’s life in the liberal media echo chamber, I guess…

  • HonestDebate1

    I don’t know what you libs are griping about. Obama wanted the shutdown because Republicans will be blamed, he can demagogue the hell out of it, he can make insane analogies about apple and he can be as nasty as he is. The press will convince the sycophants and they will parrot from the mountaintops. His refusal to budge an inch or even talk to Republicans has them foolishly negotiating with themselves. Even if he signed off on the one year delay it will help him in 2014 because implementing it now will further sink the economy by then. Of course he is having his cake and eating it too by lawlessly picking and choose which parts he enacts. He’s got it made. If Americans have to suffer and our grandchildren are saddled with unrepayable debt, what difference at this point does it make?

    • jefe68

      You are delusional.

      • HonestDebate1

        Where am I wrong?

        • sickofthechit

          Looks like all of it from the amount of thumbs down.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s hardly the arbiter of truth. These same clowns down voted MLK Jr. when I posted his words.

  • Yar

    In reading many of the comments on today’s Blog,it looks like we are about to re-fight the war of ‘northern aggression’.

  • David Thomson

    Did I hear correctly? “We’ve had a shutdown and the sun is still rising.” This was from a member of Congress. Whose sun are they talking about? Oh, THEIR sun. congress’s salaries are still going to get paid–no firings, no furloughs.

    How come? Why aren’t Congressional salaries–not their expense accounts, but their take-home pay–the first to go when ourelected representatives can’t agree to take care of the country?

    • hennorama

      David Thomson — the answer is the Twenty-seventh Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which reads:

      “No law, varying the compensation for the services of Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.”

      • MrNutso

        I think that means that congress can’t vote to change their current pay, only for the next congress. That doesn’t mean they actually have to be paid.

        • hennorama

          MrNutso – It’s unclear whether any new law “varying the compensation for the services of Senators and Representatives,” even one that simply delays payment of Congressional salaries, might pass Constitutional muster.

      • David Thomson

        thanks for pointing that out, BUT–what we need is a law, passed as soon as it can be, that says that the salaries of members of Congress suffer the consequences that their actions have on the public welfare. I’m not saying that I could formulate that law or have any idea how best to do so, but it could be done, even if it doesn’t affect the current Congress.

        • hennorama

          David Thomson — I have no problem with your concept, and was merely answering your questions as to why “…Congressional salaries–not their expense accounts, but their take-home pay– [aren't] the first to go…”

          Knowledge is power.

          One suggests that you contact your Senators and Representative forthwith.

  • TFRX
  • Deanna

    To characterize the current shutdown as a “game of chicken” is completely innaccurate. There is an easily accessible record of statements and video of a small crew of Congressional Republicans who intended to shut down the government and are slapping each other on the back in congratulations at this achievement. They are on record saying that a shutdown is a good thing. That’s not gridlock.

    • John_in_Amherst

      they are traitors, committing treason

  • Coastghost

    Federal devolution: start today, continue tomorrow, keep it up for the next year, extrapolate decade after decade.
    Our Federal government has long since exceeded its capability to promise us everything someone else wants to give us, its competence to deliver everything someone else wants us to have.

    • TFRX

      Fine.

      Do it when one of your precious Freedom Lovers is in the White House. See how far you get when all the mooching rugged individualists on the right decide they don’t want to give it up.

      Why is this only a problem when it’s “President (D)”?

      • Coastghost

        I have never favored ANY Federal Department of Education, and I have long advocated repeal of the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967 and the total elimination of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

        • HonestDebate1

          There was a time when abolishing the Dept. of Education was a platform issue, not any more. Our kids would be a lot smarter if the department was canned.

          • OnPointComments

            We should get rid of the EPA and Dept. of Energy also.

          • HonestDebate1

            My hawk side hates to say it but I think DHS is useless as well.

          • fun bobby

            useless and the I can’t help but to hear the word “fatherland” whenever I hear the word “homeland”

          • Ray in VT

            I always had that same reaction to “homeland”. It just gave me the willies. I would have preferred “domestic” or “national”.

          • fun bobby

            i think the name they have is accurate and that it would be just as naziesque no matter what you call it

          • Ray in VT

            To my ear another name might be less so, but that’s just my feeling on it.

          • fun bobby

            would a repressive security apparatus by another name not smell as sweet?
            not to mention we already have a national security agency. (don’t worry fellas I have not forgot about you)

          • HonestDebate1

            I really don’t care what they call it, I call it a dysfunctional bureaucracy.

          • fun bobby

            I call it “absolute power corrupts absolutely”

          • jimino

            So you obviously yearn for the days when we could save energy and heat ourselves by igniting our rivers.

          • HonestDebate1

            Isn’t that what everybody wants?

          • Ray in VT

            I just want known carcinogens like Formaldehyde in our household products. Thankfully some groups are fighting for us to have that right.

          • HonestDebate1

            Me too, God bless them.

          • Ray in VT

            Yup. Can’t let lives get in the way of profits.

          • HonestDebate1

            Now you’re talking! That’s exactly the choice. Brilliant!

          • Ray in VT

            Well, it’s all about choice and liberty. We need the liberty to have lead in products too, plus the government stole my freedom to have the sort of acid rain that I could get under that terrible taxer Reagan.

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s clear, if I had my way, the earth would be uninhabitable and everyone would die. That is exactly the premise that any honest debate should start with.

            I don’t understand why we are so divided.

          • Ray in VT

            Because some seem to believe that there is another way to get certain types of harmful chemicals out of our everyday products without government action, despite evidence to the contrary.

          • HonestDebate1

            The government is the ONLY answer whether it be healthcare, AGW, contraception, pollution, equal outcome, everything.

          • Ray in VT

            That’s bizarre. Who would claim that? I just want to know how the free market plans to do things like stop, or at least reduce or limit, acid rain, end or reduce discrimination or ensure that the elderly can access health care. Certainly it has given us better alternatives then the big, bad gub’ment stealing our rats.

          • HonestDebate1

            What you seem to be missing about the EPA is the fact that acid rain, carcinogens in products and such can be dealt with without the EPA. And no one is suggesting the free market does it, no one objects to the government doing it. That’s just a red herring. It’s that silly all or nothing rhetoric.

            I’m not even going to go down your emotion-based elderly path or your open-ended discrimination road. Nobody wants the elderly to have any hardships and discrimination can mean anything.

            The EPA is a bloated, meddling bureaucratic nightmare that has been given far too much power with woefully little oversight. That’s the issue.

          • Ray in VT

            It’s also an agency that has repeatedly penalized a couple of particular libertarian billionaires for their legal transgression, and surprise surprise, their money looks to be behind most of the major groups attacking the EPA. Who would have thought.

            If the things that I listed can be addressed by the EPA, then why hasn’t it? In fact was it not the purpose of the EPA to address measures just such as those, and there has been some real progress on the pollution front since its inception. It sounds like a real nightmare as you describe it. I just don’t think that it bears much resemblance to reality for most people.

            Please, tell me you reason-based solution to providing health care for the elderly. Surely some great plan exists, and probably was operating just fine prior to big gub’ment getting involved. Please also provide me with the non-government solution segregation, race-based discrimination and the unequal treatment of various minorities. Again, I am sure that the liberty loving states rights folks had and have that all worked out.

          • Coastghost

            Plus, there’s NEVER been any Constitutional imperative for any Federal department of education or bureau of pedagogy or office of public instruction, et cetera and ad nauseam.

        • jimino

          That ought to balance the budget.

          • Coastghost

            I doubt that would happen, but surely elimination of the CPB would end most Federal subsidies for the New York Times and WaPo. (If Jeff Bezos can afford WaPo, surely Americans don’t need to subsidize its operations one day longer.)

      • jefe68

        I was thinking of responding to this tired right wing meme about the Federal government.
        The problem is that it’s pointless. This guy represents a mindset that I find to be unreachable. The statement speaks for itself.
        It’s anti-government to a fault and is akin to secessionist ideology that is spreading amongst this small minority of nihilist.
        They don’t want to be part of society as most people see it. I’m not sure what to do as they have the freedom to express their view points.

        What’s happening now in Congress has crossed a line that is beyond the pale in terms of how a nation of over 300 million people with a huge military and nuclear weapons is governed.
        If we let the nihilist have their way it’s path that could have dire consequences on the world stage.

        I rest my case. The above comments by all three tea party proves my point. THey are nihilistic to a fault.

        • Coastghost

          I’m no nihilist and I’m no anarchist, and I’m not arguing for the utter elimination of the Federal government: I am calling for rather severe reduction in the scope and ambition of the Federal pretensions to governance so that actual government and governance can occur at the only level of polity Americans can recognize and grapple with in this age of virtual reality and internet bodiless existence, namely, the state level. I am against Federal usurpation of powers that were supposed to remain domiciled in and among the several States.
          Death to Federal panda cams, et cetera (and don’t take me to be advocating state panda cams, either, unless Gov. Jerry Brown wants to impose them on Californians).

        • HonestDebate1

          My wife says I need to lose 5 pounds. I don’t know why she wants me to give up food and starve to death. What else can she mean?

        • William

          Recently the NYTimes ran an article discussing how the city officials in Detroit gave away nearly 2 billion dollars in funds to retired city workers, active city workers or just anyone that asked. This is the NYTimes and not the Washington Hearld.

          This is just one city that for nearly 50 years had a bloated and corrupt government.

          The fix from the feds? Give them another 200 million dollars this week.

  • Bob_in_RI

    This conversation is focusing on the brinksmanship and economic impact but avoiding the ideology underlying the Tea Party’s actions which I interpret as pure greed. It’s I’ve got mine and screw you. It’s about an unwillingness to pay a dollar more in taxes if it benefits the greater good. It’s unchristian, it’s unamerican and good people need to rise up and shut this down.

    • William

      Obama has said several times he endorses entitlement reform. He not only endorsed the Bush tax cuts but extended them. Is he a TP member? He gave his business buddies a year waiver on this Obama-care law and told individuals “tough luck pay up”. His buddies in the fed are feeding his Wall Street donors 80 billion a month while main street sheds workers and downsizes… Who is the bad guy here? TP or Obama?

      • jimino

        Whadda’ ya’ from a Marxist/socialist.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Who is greedy? $17T in debt and $100T in unfunded liabilities. Maybe we want some honesty from our government and maybe we want to protect our children and grandchildren from real damage.

  • HonestDebate1

    So we’re one day in and already 2,400 people’s personal data has been leaked. Buckle up.

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/14/obamacare-exchange-leaks-data-of-2400-unsuspecting-customers/#ixzz2gWeJ753F

    • toc1234

      But now the ACORN Navigators are on the case.. I’m sure things will be fine from here on……

      • HonestDebate1

        And we still have the NSA on our side too. Luckily the IRS is enforcing Obamacare. It’s all good.

        • Karl Prahl

          What? Why isn’t the IRS part of the shutdown?
          Madness

          • Steve__T

            It is, my local office is closed.

          • Karl Prahl

            Did Congress inadvertently free the entire American population?
            Keep us posted!

      • lobstahbisque

        ACORN like God, is dead.

        • Ray in VT

          That new Sabbath tune is decent.

    • lobstahbisque

      The Daily Caller has a few other choice headlines. “GHOST OF ST. RONNIE SAYS TO NANCY, IT’S WARM WHERE HE IS NOW.”
      “TEDDY WON’T STOP USING MY “BACK DOOR” SAYS FRUSTRATED WIFE.”

      • HonestDebate1

        Yea, they probably made it ll up.

  • William

    Keeping the spenders away from the desks is not such a bad way of management. Look at the jump in spending prior to the end of the fiscal year…it’s a feeding frenzy in nearly every agency and has been that way for decades.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Bye bye disloyal red states. You can go this time and enjoy your 3′rd world theo/aristo/cracy. Maybe you can replace asia for cheap labor.

    • OnPointComments

      Disloyalty is in the eye of the beholder. I doubt that Republican voters in the majority Republican districts want their elected representatives to acquiesce to the Democrats simply because Democrats won the national election.

      Why secede or expel by state? Let the secession/expulsion be by county, as shown in the 2012 presidential vote map.

      • John_in_Amherst

        The Congress is sworn in as follows: I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the
        Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
        domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I
        take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose
        of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of
        the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

        No where does it say “Failing to get my way through the electoral or
        legislative processes, I will engage in actions that will close down the
        functioning of government and damage the credit rating of the country,
        the economy and the personal and financial well-being of the public.”

        The Teabagger GOP faction is treasonous, and should be ousted from office. (see post elsewhere for definition of treason, or look it up

        • OnPointComments

          The President is sworn in as follows:

          “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

          No where does it say “I will pick and choose among the laws, and only enforce the ones I like. If there are parts of laws I don’t like, I will, by executive prerogative, change duly passed laws to suit me, and grant waivers from laws to my political supporters.”

          • Ray in VT

            It’s amazing that there is no history and precedent of the chief executive having the ability and authority to take actions to delay various implementation things and such. One would think that that would be handy, practical and useful over time, and one would also think that some other president would have done similar things previously.

          • Karl Prahl

            It’s the idea of checks and balances. You don’t want to empower the executive with too much authority without proper oversight.
            The whole idea of governmental oversight is a joke, but I’m guessing that the perception of checks and balances is the reason the president cannot do this. Reason what you say makes sense is that a President can initiate action unilaterally (wage war for 90 days, executive orders etc.) but the idea of ceasing action unilaterally is completely foreign. Interesting thought all the same.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, I guess to rather officially end a conflict, at least in the old-fashioned state to state way, one needs to pass a treaty by the Senate. I hadn’t thought about those differences in that way.

            My particular tongue in cheek comment is related to the mandate delay. I have heard it called unilateral, unconstitutional, unprecedented, illegal and probably a few more things. The Treasury Department submitted a letter to Congress detailing the delay, how such an action is allowable according to the CFR, as well as some recent precedent. Based upon that, I think that such partisan rhetoric regarding the delay in not justified. I just rather dislike hyperbole.

          • Karl Prahl

            If a politician opens their mouth you know it is hyperbole verbally. That said just look at the obfuscation surrounding the political process. Different elected officials claiming different rules for different situations and none of them agree. Even the Supreme Court doesn’t see eye to eye on all cases and different courts at different times make different rulings WITH THE SAME AUTHORITY.
            This is one reason why I view the system as hopelessly corrupt and broken. It -COULD- be fixed but it won’t be. Check out that Lysander Spooner essay linked above or just search for the Constitution of No Authority.
            You seem the capable sort that can read something without swallowing the hook. Check it out! :-)

          • HonestDebate1

            What do you think of Mark Levin’s “Liberty Amendments”? I haven’t read it yet but from what I do understand he is of the same mind and has come up with a way (albeit a hard way) to get to the nub of it all.

          • Karl Prahl

            Haven’t read it. Adding it to my list now. Thanks!

          • John_in_Amherst

            there are actually six types of waivers, designed to facilitate transition to the ACA (see: http://www.balch.com/files/Publication/6c9b1c52-9972-49e3-a553-4c9b8d20975c/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/fb9548b8-a5f4-4d89-8e87-5448e7166fdb/Waivers_Newsletter_July12.pdf ) For instance, the “mini-med” bare bones medical insurance McDonald’s provides to low wage workers has to high a medical cost/benefits ratio (i.e.: the plans are too costly in terms of the ratio of premiums paid in to medical delivered out) to pass the ACA guidelines, so the mini-med plans were given a waiver – of 1 year – to come into compliance.

            It is ABSOLUTELY false that the ACA waivers have been doled out strictly to please Obama’s backers. Unions are ticked off that their difficulties in compliance with ACA guidelines did NOT result in a waiver.

            Googling “Obamacare Waiver” results in page after page of links to various right wing news organizations and foundations, all spewing skewed info about what waivers are and who gets them. It couldn’t be that they are sowing confusion intentionally, could it??.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    It is fairly clear that both Obama and Reid WANTED this shutdown. It could have easily been avoided by agreeing to two popular provisions in the latest GOP proposal — having Congress play by the same Obamacare rules and a one year delay of the individual mandate (note, this doesn’t prevent anyone access to Obamacare if they want it).

    Now we find that the Regime ordered the National Park Service to put up barricades at the open air WWII memorial. Folks, they had to go out of their way to block what is effectively a sidewalk. Why? Because they want to inflict maximum pain. That is all they are interested in.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Fortunately, the WWII vets were able to break through the barricades. These are the men who stood up to Hitler and Rommel. Do Reid and Obama think that they keep them away even though they are octogenarians? Not hardly.

      • OnPointComments

        Looks like the guy erecting barricades at the WWII memorial must be an essential government worker.

        • fun bobby

          government heavy equipment operator has to pay pretty good

        • StilllHere

          I smell shovel-ready stimulus!

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Here is the BEST WWII Memorial signage today:

      “NORMANDY WAS CLOSED WHEN WE GOT THERE, TOO”

    • Bruce94

      “It is clear Obama and Reid wanted this shutdown”

      “They want to inflict maximum pain”

      I’m beginning to worry about WorriedfortheCountry, who is seeming to exhibit the classic signs of Projection, a defense mechanism that involves taking our own loathsome qualities and attributing them to other people (see above quotes).

      I’m sure there’s professional help available, Worried. In the meantime, you might find the following link useful:

      http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_7.htm

      Have a nice day :-)

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        There is plenty of evidence to support my analysis starting with the timing of every Senate vote.

        So no, it isn’t projection. It is opening your eyes and observing ACTIONS, not propaganda.

        And of course they are trying to inflict pain. They believe that tactic will give them political advantage. It is the modus operandi. They did it with sequestration too.

        • HonestDebate1

          Yea but what about Bruce94′s counter argument? … er… ugh… never mind, there wasn’t one.

      • lobstahbisque

        I’ve tried that before. They are not aware that their psychological motivations are so transparent. The echo chamber makes them lie about facts, then eventually that lying takes over the whole personality without their realizing it. But I think you may have shaken him up a bit, which is always amusing…. as in….. “So no, it isn’t project is opening our eyes and observing ACTIONS, not propaganda.” What sentence kind this is?

        • Karl Prahl

          You ever read any Bernays? I’d suggest you pick up a copy of “Propaganda” and you too might realize the difference between observed actions and propaganda.
          Of course you can apply your own definitions (as seems popular with “Treason”).

          • lobstahbisque

            You came late to the party dear, missed both points to my post in your haste to troll me, and engaged in the worst kind of condescending bull pucky. Why would anyone read something recommended by you, pray tell? Why don’t you read The Secret Life of Lobsters and get back to me with your nice little report. Now run along, TROLL.

          • Karl Prahl

            The argument of a truly gifted mind. I cede all matters of principle to you.

            Why is it the lefty-socialist-right-wing-republicrats feel it necessary to resort to ad hominem and fallacy to make their point? That’s right. Because they are intellectually bankrupt ideas that cannot be substantiated logically. Instead of answering questions, seeking out knowledge and knowing the subjects in which we pretend to be versed they settle for the regurgitations of their favorite talking-head.

            No. Don’t bother reading anything I suggest. Stick to Dan Brown and Patricia Cornwall novels. Or you could try to benefit yourself and read this essay by Lysander Spooner.

            http://jim.com/treason.htm
            Mind you I understand that the weak-willed; those without the ability to critically think. I understand that the ability to read WITHOUT the ability to logically reason and think is only another form of slavery, keeping your mind locked up and ignorant to the possibilities and truths set about by the metaphysical principal position of existence.

            As Aristotle would say “If you can’t explain it, you don’t know it.”

          • lobstahbisque

            You’ve lost it buddy. It’s all flummery, smoke and mirrors. After all, as your Donald Rumpsfelt was known to say clearly , “There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.” This is clarity itself, music to my ears, compared with your “writing.”

          • Karl Prahl

            Ignoring the matter at hand and instead relying on fallacies.
            Ah, so he is My Donald rumsfeld even if I believe he should be arrested immediately for crimes, starting the Aspertaine and moving on through 9/11?

            Yeah, I saw that Rapnews too.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbCwq4ewBU

          • lobstahbisque

            It’s aspartame. Also pundit, not pundint and library, not libary. Store that.

          • jefe68

            Why your’s is the argument of a truly limited mind.

          • jefe68

            Ouch!

        • Bruce94

          In the “wacko bird” universe of the Tea Party zealots, lines from Jabberwocky are put forward as reasoned argument and so it follows that, according to the perverse logic of these Mad Hatters, the pain inflicted by the sequester (which was engineered by GOP hostage taking during the 2011 debt limit debate) is somehow the President’s fault; and the pain inflicted by the subsequent credit downgrade was the President’s fault even though the record shows that it was Boehner who caved to the Mad Hatters in the eleventh hour of the Grand Bargain negotiations; and now the Tea Party “wacko birds” are at it again whining about how the govt. shutdown is the fault of a President who is allegedly unwilling to negotiate. Never mind that the Senate passed a budget 6 months ago and the spineless GOP leadership once again caved to the Tea Party and blocked formation of a budget conference committee that would have worked in a bipartisan manner toward a real, long-term budget agreement.

          • lobstahbisque

            Your synopsis seems pretty comprehensive– especially considering its concentrated brevity and creativity. When the going gets tough around here, don’t ever doubt yourself— It’s them not you!

            Aside from the diagnosis of psychological tone deafness, there is also a sociopathic lack of empathy and a propensity to pathological lying in these individuals.

            Or maybe it’s the effect of a concussion in early life. Perhaps most tea baggers were dropped on their heads by their mothers?

            Regardless, I salute you for your inner integrity and clear-sighted honesty.

          • Bruce94

            Thanks. Your comment about the echo chamber is spot on. I think to the extent that we are increasingly listening to and living among like-minded folks, we are becoming increasingly polarized. And this trend has led to a more extremism in the GOP base and incapacity in its leadership. I only hope the Tea Party lemmings heading for the cliff don’t drag the rest of us with them into the abyss.

  • fun bobby

    I am learning all sorts of things because of this shut down. did you know that for some reason the feds are sponsoring college football games?

    • Ray in VT

      Well, they sponsor stuff like NASCAR, so it wouldn’t be a surprise. Is it military recruitment ads or something else?

      • fun bobby

        yeah that is also disgusting. I guess the air force and the navy have football teams for some reason. this is what I think of when I hear them talking about borrowing more to pay for the government. lets shut it down I am sure there will be plenty of football without the feds

        • Bluejay2fly

          When I was in the USN in the 80′s we had a golf team! I was not so lucky I was on the Gulf War team instead.

          • Karl Prahl

            Watch them gridiron boys on Sat/Sun. Note the military jet flyovers? That’s tax payer dollars paying for the show of force at the big games.
            Maybe that sort of waste got shut down. We can hope!

          • fun bobby

            actually there has already been a few fly overs cancelled from the sequester

          • Karl Prahl

            Good. I’d really like to see the price tag for even one of those flyovers.
            Anecdotally, I saw some documentary about someone who privately owned a F-104 Starfighter which he claimed was the most advanced jet you could own without insanely expensive computerized diagnostic equipment. Basically it was the last jet you could “get under the hood”, in service through Vietnam.
            He said every time he took off cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8,000 and that was pre-2000 dollars.
            Now that’s a private citizen who is doing everything himself. How much does the airforce spend to send those MUCH more advances jets flying?

          • fun bobby

            its hard to fathom how much. even this man is suffering

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yh1NHRP3NA

          • JGC

            This makes me nostalgic for The Rent-Is-Too-Damn-High-Guy. Whatever happened to him anyway?

          • hennorama

            JGC – The Rent-Is-Too-Damn-High-Guy (aka Jimmy McMillan) is running for mayor of NYC, and a recent judicial ruling means he’s going to be on the ballot in November (pending further review).

            See:
            http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/judge-rent-too-high-party-candidate-jimmy-mcmillan-can-be-on-ballot-for-nyc-mayoral-race/2013/09/24/e4ca09be-256f-11e3-9372-92606241ae9c_story.html

            http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org/

          • JGC

            Cool!

          • fun bobby
          • hennorama

            Dude — that joke video was uploaded over 5 YEARS ago.

          • fun bobby

            one hopes diddy is no longer forced to fly commercial.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Our military consumes as much oil as the entire nation of Sweden. When I was in Camp Arifjan the entire base ran by generators. We had two shifts running night and day of just topping off the generators, Insane!

          • Karl Prahl

            The Defense Department is the worlds largest consumer of gasoline.

            Camp Arifjan sounds like the Alaskan North face. Do a little investigating there to see how much natural gas we’re pumping back INTO the ground (hint: more than the entire continent uses).

            Don’t want to stray too far, but the whole oil-crunch thing is manufactured. Not claiming there is no limit to the oil, but Russian models have pretty well disproven the idea of “seas of decomposed trees=oil”. Check out the Black Lion field or other super-deep extraction sites. The theory is oil is liquid being pumped up out of the earth from centrifugal force.

            http://www.rense.com/general63/refil.htm

            For some reason Standard and Royal Shell are not forthcoming about this. Interesting.

            At least some of our media is realizing it’s not the oil supply, but the industry-imposed limits on refining that determines supply and price of gas.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Amen! Maybe we should sell the base at Coco Beach. Why have a base there?

          • fun bobby

            our tax dollars at work. did they even have to buy your their own clubs? that’s kinda like pebble beach

    • StilllHere

      Now, this is serious. Nobody messes with my Saturday drinking companion, college football!

      • fun bobby

        perhaps they could have a bake sale.

    • hennorama

      fun bobby – the U.S. service academies (U.S. Naval Academy, U.S. Military Academy, U.S. Air Force Academy, U.S. Coast Guard Academy, and the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy) have intercollegiate athletic programs, in the same way as most other post-secondary educational institutions.

      According to espn.com:

      “The U.S. Naval Academy fully funds its athletics programs through unappropriated funds by using earnings from sources such as ticket sales and TV rights. But the U.S. Military Academy and U.S. Air Force Academy partially fund their athletics programs through appropriated funds, so they would be affected by the government shutdown.”

      These three academies are part of the Department of Defense, and are potentially impacted by the Federal shutdown.

      However, also, according to espn.com, “Coast Guard game will go on despite furloughs”

      “The Defense Department temporarily suspended sports competition at the service academies Tuesday as a result of the budget impasse in Congress.

      “But Lt. Paul Rhynard, a Coast Guard spokesman, says because it is part of the Department of Homeland Security, the Coast Guard is making its own decisions regarding sports.”

      The U.S. Merchant Marine Academy has no direct connection to any branches of the military, and is funded through the Department of Transportation. They are considered to be “non-essential.”

      Per usmma.edu, “Due to a lapse in funding, the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy is closed for normal operations. And per their athletics websit, usmmasports.com, ““Due to a lapse in government funding, all USMMA varsity sport competitions have been postponed/cancelled until further notice.”

      See:
      http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9754777/government-shutdown-threatens-cancellation-college-football-games-involving-service-academies

      http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?section=ncf&id=9758905

      http://www.usmma.edu/status
      http://www.usmmasports.com/landing/index

      • fun bobby

        thanks for the details. too bad DHS sponsored sports have been declared essential

        • Karl Prahl

          The fans are expecting the big rumble between Lestor “The molestor” TSA agent vs Down-town-brown and toxic Fema Trailer agent.
          Can’t cut funding to the essentials.

        • hennorama

          fun bobby — You’re welcome.

          However, you’re stating your own interpretation of what the U.S. Coast Guard Academy spokesman was quoted as having said:

          “Lt. Paul Rhynard, a Coast Guard spokesman, says because it is part of the Department of Homeland Security, the Coast Guard is making its own decisions regarding sports.”

          The article did not say “DHS sponsored sports have been declared essential,” or anything similar.

          • fun bobby

            i guess we will find out soon enough

  • fun bobby

    It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.

  • JGC

    Senator Cruz says, “Remember the Alamo! But just not at the Alamo National Historic Landmark, which will be closed until my brave Republican colleagues in the House can enact the “essential funding loophole” to the Park Service. Sorry, kiddies in HeadStart and WIC:. You are not deemed quite so “essential”. (crocodile tears)

  • tbphkm33

    The OnPoint discussion board is normally informative and lacking the bumptiousness of the ideologues. That is until a heated political debate. At which point, this board in inundated with the half spun rhetoric, propaganda and myths of the rightwing. The cattle call must have gone out for the lunatic fringe to make postings at OnPoint.

    Lacking of substance, fact or based in reality – the lunatic fringe would do themselves a favor by not espousing their flirtations with fascism, and a litany of other ‘ism’s

    — Corporate power to the Nopublican’s, they are bravely standing resolute in their firm support of the 1%.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Time to channel a little IPCC here.

      We can be 95% certain that what we have here is that
      pot — kettle — black thingy.

    • warryer

      Yes oh mighty voice of reason. You must know what you are talking about with your big words disguising your insults, not really adding anything to the conversation, being just the same as those you point the finger at.

      WHY are they lunatics? Answer that and maybe people will take you seriously.

      • lobstahbisque

        Simple observation

        • warryer

          on what foundation?

          • lobstahbisque

            Not a foundation silly! The CORPORATION for Public Broadcasting. I watch it while eating the lobster I buy on food stamps.

          • thequietkid10

            I was wondering where you got that user name from.

          • JGC

            This is sort of off topic, but I remember hearing that lobster used to be the food of the proletariat. The help used to even demand that they not be fed lobster more than a few times a week. And even today, with huge lobster harvests, high-end restaurants are struggling to maintain that “lobster mystique” and pricing. Hmmm, how times have changed…Maybe Spam Bake will be served in the 3-star Michelin restaurants of the future. Now back to our regular programming:

          • lobstahbisque

            Seriously, a wonderful book is The Secret LIfe of Lobsters. It’s notable how the availability of a food can affect it’s desirability, dare I say, class. I recall reading that lobster used to be given to prisoners in coastal regions. It’s very healthy and harvested in the greenest manner possible. Back to the maelstrom…

    • Karl Prahl

      [At which point, this board in inundated with the half spun rhetoric, propaganda and myths of the rightwing]
      The left never lies, my friends. The left is always here to protect your interests so long as your interests align with the lefts.
      I hold up my left hand and turn around. What was on the right, is now on the left, or is the left the right and the right the left? The right way is the wrong way if the left way is the right way. Clearly.

    • thequietkid10

      Does the use of fascism count as a violation of Goodwin’s Law? Or am I interpreting it too broadly?

      Either way, I’m calling Goodwin’s Law on the guy who is complaining about a lack civility.

      • Ray in VT

        I don’t know. That seems pretty borderline. Maybe he’s referring to Italian, Spanish or South American fascism and not German.

        • Karl Prahl

          Aren’t you glad there is no Goodwin’s Law Authority forcing you to conform with their ideal? :-)

          • Ray in VT

            Yes indeed, although I do find good definitions and clear rules to be very helpful in resolving many things. We are upgrading a system here at work, and another group asked my group a series of questions, and we found that we had to ask a series of other questions in order to properly answer their questions, as the terms that they used in their questions often had different and highly specific meanings for the work done in my particular group.

          • Karl Prahl

            Sure sounds like you were collaborating and working together to establish a system that works for the individuals involved. Sounds perfect.
            I guess my line is drawn when the decision making process and those living with the results are at all separated. Family life is a form of democracy, isn’t it? I’m certainly not anti-family so I guess, fundamentally, I’m not anti democracy.

          • Ray in VT

            I can’t remember what parent (real or fictional) said that family was a dictatorship led by the parents (as a response to a child’s demand for getting an equal vote on something). My family is more like the U.N. Security Council. The kids get to vote on stuff, but my wife and I retain veto power. I wouldn’t want to let my boys have an equal vote on dinner. On the bright side, right now at least we could deadlock, at least until their younger sister gets old enough to take their side. ;).

            I dislike emoticons and such, by the way, but sometimes I find that they really are necessary in an all text environment when one is using satire or not is not trying to throw an elbow.

          • Karl Prahl

            I would look into John Taylor Gatto’s work. He has a few books, but also a DVD – The Ultimate History Lesson. It’s LONG, but free on youtube and very very interesting.

            John Gatto is a retired public school teacher, mid seventies maybe when this was recorded? He has a very likeable disposition so it’s easy to follow his narrative. I’d recommend it.

            As for your specific examples w/ your family, well. I completely understand. That said, you’ll trust your kid’s when they are “older” to make those decisions (for themselves at least) I assume?

            Not to drag this out to fat, but the age of majority in culture is continually pushed back. For most of history, humans were adults when they reached their majority (puberty) at around 12 or so. Benjamin Franklin was running a business, writing articles and working 60 hours of labor a week at 12. David Farragut was given his first command at age 12 (however briefly.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut

            And our friends at the Tavistock institute just pushed the age of childhood back to 25. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24173194

            People mature when they are forced to, but John Taylor Gatto will make that argument better than I.

    • Michele

      I agree with the first two paragraphs of your comment. The snappy one-liners and insults are a waste of space and idiotic.

  • tbphkm33

    I champion that the members of Congress in question be arrested and charged with treason.

    • Karl Prahl

      What’s the definition of treason again?
      Check out Black’s or Bouvier’s for real definitions and not someone’s opinion on the matter.
      Treason: The offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance; or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power. Treason consists of two elements: Adherence to the enemy and rendering him aid and comfort.
      Now only if you consider the National Security Apparatus to be the Enemy of the People of the United States can congress be considered treasonous for current actions.

      • HonestDebate1

        Those sources are not welcome here, believe me I know.

        • Karl Prahl

          Logic and reason have no place in the land of the insane.
          Let’s call them the Primacy of Consciousness crowd.
          Whatever is in their head is reality.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Himmler would be proud.

      • lobstahbisque

        Ach du Liebe Augustine: Deine Himmlersche Leben!

        • Karl Prahl

          I champion that all recipients of corporate welfare and all corporate tax cheats be arrested and charged with treason.
          Congress in jail or corporate officers in jail. Which would accomplish more?

          • lobstahbisque

            Who the hell do you think you are, the Grand Inquisitor or the Wicked Witch of the West? Answer me.

          • Karl Prahl

            If power in a society must rest in the hands of the few, I volunteer to have that power rest with me.
            If that means I am Grand Inquisitor or the Wicked Witch of the West, then I humbly accept such titles.
            If I cannot have the power inherent in any socialist system, then I’d rather not participate. Thanks! :-)

          • Bluejay2fly

            You are correct these people are worse than many people in prison. We should impose the death penalty on white collar criminals and people who steal and misuse public trust. All there fellow citizens who die in poor neighborhoods, who wallow in drug abuse, who are talented yet have their skills go wasted, all that misery is on their heads because of their greed and criminality. If a man sticks a gun in your face or a congressmen misappropriates thousands they both should die on the same scaffold. That would go along way to prove the justice system is not racist.

          • Karl Prahl

            It would, but it’s the wrong way my friend.
            We need to educate and empower individuals to recognize the criminals for what they are and not what they claim to be.
            If people see the sheers better chance that they wont be sheered.
            Now if certain individuals who abused their positions and aggressed against other individuals (read: anyone who steals, no matter what a piece of paper says. I’m looking at you IRS) should happen to find themselves called into account without their squadrons of trained murderers (read: soldiers) to protect them, comeuppants may be served.
            Empowering more people to wear costumes (read: police, judges) and inflict violence on others will just see the cycle repeat.

          • Bluejay2fly

            I am not saying the death penalty would deter a lot of crime (it will deter some) I am just trying to keep the size of the justice system small and inexpensive to operate. The money you save by not having to keep people who are useless alive can go to education, providing jobs, and creating an environment to help people prosper. Prisons are an expensive way to make bad people worse and in a world of finite money every dollar you spend feeding a murderer is one less spent on bettering society. There was a military strategy employed during the Civil War where the North decided that the expense of keeping Union soldiers as prisoners by the Confederacy was a great way to drain their resources. When it was discovered they were dying from neglect Grant said they are no different than those who die on the battlefield. Prisons have the same economic effect on our economy and in doing so also upset the concept of social justice as the criminal gets to continuously harm society by bleeding it dry.

          • Karl Prahl

            My push is that we don’t need it. People know what is right and wrong. Justice can be served and individuals protected without some bureaucracy that, even if established by angels, may one day fall into devil hands.
            Community can fill the void vacated by law.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Maybe if they we all as enlightened and sane as you are that would be true. But I like your attitude and the USA would be so much better if more people thought your way.

          • Karl Prahl

            We’ll never get there if we don’t think we can.
            Possibilities are limited by perception.
            That is not to say I can fly tomorrow if I dream of wings today, but man did achieve flight and that was once impossible.
            We can achieve anything. Absolutely anything. But we must believe in ourselves. If we each, individually, have confidence in our knowledge and our abilities (and in turn recognize our individual weaknesses) then we’ll be well on our way.
            We have to stop taking someone else’s word for what we can achieve. We have to stop limiting our goals to commonly accepted standards. We have to stop settling and take responsibility.

          • fun bobby

            I would like to see the stocks put back into service. inexpensive and quick justice

    • Bluejay2fly

      They are bought by corporations anyway. Gone are the days when someone who is not a lawyer, millionaire, or corporate lobbyist can expect to win an election. There are exceptions like Sara Palin but God only knows the full story as to why someone like that would prevail.

      • Michele

        Isn’t John Boehner an insurance agent? Albeit a wealthy one.

        • Bluejay2fly

          The ACA was on great big handout to insurance companies and that is only one example of how an insurance companies benefit from congress.

      • fun bobby

        whoever spends the most money wins the election

  • marygrav

    All through this Second Great Depression that began in 2007, I have been thanking God/Goddess, whatever; that there was no Hitler waiting in the wings to fuel the fascism that lies below the surface of American society. But now that tranquility has changed. History has finally caught up with US: Ted Cruz.

    An opportunistic foreigner, Adolph Hitler was an Austrian, not a German, has entered our liberal democracy, just as he did the Weimar Republic, and threatens to overturn our constitutional democracy and threatens to replace it with T-Party fascism.

    Historians and political scientist were and are still awed by what occurred in the 1930s in a sophisticated society like Weimar Germany, whose constitution was more liberal than ours. But it was the greed of the Industrialists and the economic stress brought on by the American 20th century Great Depression that helped Adolph Hitler and his Fascist that he called Nazism into political power. And in 2016 may bring Cruz to power.

    In the case of the United States, it is the Invisible
    Hand and the T-Party that is responsible for the rise of our American fascist clone.

    Remember, the Angel of History always flies backwards.

    • lobstahbisque

      We don’t yet have a Hitler analogue. Cruz is probably only as bad as Joe McCarthy, that man-loving drunk. But I take your warning seriously…

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Hitler (and others) increased the power of the State. Cruz and the Tea Party want to limit the power and size of the State.

      Try again.

      • jefe68

        Except when it comes to women.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          I defy you to name one Tea Party Principle that in ANY way impedes on women’s rights.

    • thequietkid10

      Goodwin’s Law alert

      • OnPointComments

        Godwin’s law is an assertion made by Mike Godwin in 1990 that has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1. In other words, Godwin said that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

        • Bluejay2fly

          Ask someone who makes a NAZI reference who killed the most German soldiers or who lost more soldiers on D-day. Or just ask them what Nazi actually stands for.

    • William

      Your Fellow Travelers would be so proud of you.

    • hennorama

      Once again, the little [Collapse] minus sign comes in handy.

    • StilllHere

      But never on Spirit Air, cuz Angel got class!

    • OnPointComments

      ______ is a gifted orator who uses his talents to captivate the majority of _________ into believing in him. ______ is said to mesmerize the nation, capture them in a trance from which they cannot break loose. He is adept at using populist themes targeted at his audience, including the use of scapegoats who are blamed for the economic hardships of his listeners.

      [from Wikipedia] You can fill in the blanks.

      • StilllHere

        crafty

    • fun bobby

      time will tell but this other guy is the current frontrunner for antichrist

      • Karl Prahl

        Now, I’m not religious, but isn’t the “Prince of Jerusalem” the designated anti-Christ?
        Isn’t that Netanyahu?

        • fun bobby

          its one of those things you can only determine with hindsight. this old lady did tell me about a dream she had before she had ever heard of Obama in which his face appeared and she was informed he was the antichrist and her granddaughter had drawn a picture of the dream she had and it was also Obamaesque

      • lobstahbisque

        It’s Antechrist. You know, like antediluvian or antebellum.

        • Bluejay2fly

          The Antechrist is who? Someone who lived before the time of Jesus Christ. It seems like that term is a little vague. I suppose it could replace heathens or pagans as they are getting worn out.

        • fun bobby

          in french

          • lobstahbisque

            Let’s shed some reality on the subject, shall we? It’s from the Latin.
            http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ante-

          • fun bobby

            that’s not a dictionary that says “antechrist” is an English word. the spell checker just autocorrected it now when I tried to type it. in English the word is antichrist. try again

          • lobstahbisque

            No you are mistaken and too hasty to find fault. Anti is a corruption of ante. Anti means against or facing. Ante means before in order or time. The semantics are subtly different when you stick ‘Christ’ at the end of the prefix. Those who are in the know say antechrist, those who say antichrist are religious fundamentalist roobs.

          • Karl Prahl

            Can you show us the document that makes you the authority on such subjects? It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that you think you know better than others. That you know more than others or have some special insight into others lives that they themselves do not possess.

            [True, it is not impossible that where Eck is the apostle there one should find the kingdom of Antichrist.] Martin Luther.

            http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/luther/againstexecrablebull.html

            Taking a stand on semantics is a slippery slope as language is, by it’s very nature, normative.

          • lobstahbisque

            I explained it all and provided links. Now excuse me for cutting things short, but I have to go inseminate my boyfriend now.

          • fun bobby

            lemme know when you find a dictionary that agrees with you

          • lobstahbisque

            I provided the information. You just didn’t use it. See link above, and stop being so obstreperous.

          • fun bobby

            I often avoid links but I actually followed it,that link was just for the prefix ante. that does not prove antechrist (had to override the autocorrect again) is a word in American English. if it was it would mean “before Jesus” which makes no sense to refer to someone who comes after Jesus. are you coining a new phrase? is it some pop culture reference of some sort? are you French?

          • fun bobby

            btw its “rubes”

          • lobstahbisque

            No. It’s ROOB. As Roger Price unkindly designates Hawaii — “”ROOB Valhalla”.

          • fun bobby

            what are you talking about? your reference is too obscure for me. as far as I can tell roob is just not a word in English. is making up new words your thing? if it is its ok I like to use my own punctuation rules but it is odd to insist that things are actual words that do not seem to be.

          • lobstahbisque

            As Ernestine Tomlin the telephone operator once said, “Go look it up yourself, I’ve got better things to do!”
            http://healthyinfluence.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Lily-as-Ernestine.jpg

    • JGC

      I am pro-Obamacare and anti-government shutdown, but speaking of shutdown, everytime I see the Hitler analogy, I go into sleep mode. zzzzzzz…..zzzzzz…..

      • Karl Prahl

        The Germans were on sleep mode too! See what that got us!?
        j/k… relax! :-)

        • jefe68

          No they were not. You should read up on your history buddy. Did you know that quite a few of highest ranking generals had conspired to over-through Hitler as early as 39?

          • Karl Prahl

            Tongue in cheek. the “j/k… relax!” wasn’t clue enough?

          • jefe68

            It’s hard to tell. I right the word (sarcasm) when I mean it.
            And I’m quite relaxed, just like Adolf Hitler on vibes…
            –– With apologizes to the Bonzo Dog DoDa band.

          • Karl Prahl

            No trouble. Bill Clinton had the same trouble understanding and interpreting meaning.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

    • jefe68

      Please stop with the Hitler analogy. It’s dumb and points to what I call the loony left.

      Ted Cruz is at best an extreme right wing tea party type who represents one of the most conservative parts of Texas. He’s a lot of things, a fascist is not one of them.

      • fun bobby

        who are you and what have you done with jefe?

        • jefe68

          It’s the real me. I just dislike all stupidity, right or left.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Obama met with the head of Goldman Sachs today. Goldman Sachs warns that not raising the debt ceiling will impact their quarterly bonuses. Will Obama heed their warning?

    • Karl Prahl

      The fact the Morgan-Chase, Goldman etc. were all able to get face time with the Commander-in-Chief really gives me warm-fuzzy feelings.
      Much like Cheney’s Energy Task Force, I know that now with the REAL interests involved crisis will be diverted and the Big Banks will continue to profit.

      • jimino

        If we did it the Cheney way, you wouldn’t even know who’s meeting with your elected officials and, as he fought all the away to the Supreme Court to assure, you would have no right to know either.

        • Karl Prahl

          So this is clearly better, right? And Obama’s administration has decreased secrecy in government, correct?
          Obama is no better than Bush. Bush was no better than Obama. No difference. The Donkey and the Elephant are one and the same.
          So no. I don’t want it done Cheney’s way. I don’t want it done Obama’s way. I don’t want secrecy.
          I want transparency, but that would clearly impede our ability to bring death and misery to the world.
          (btw, warm-fuzzy feeling and cheney in the same post should have hinted at some sarcasm. I guess only 4 of us got it.)

    • jimino

      How would you expect any Marxist/socialist react to the warning?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Let me get this straight.

    The Dems claim that the GOP are terrorists but the actions of Major Nadal Hassan is work-place violence?

    • Karl Prahl

      Don’t forget the six-day war and Johnson.

    • fun bobby

      I don’t care who you are that’s funny right there

    • jimino

      So you would prefer the victims not be eligible for work-related injury compensation? Maybe that would make you and your ilk feel better but how does it help them?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Actually, I’d prefer them to get combat hazard compensation — for which they are currently denied.

        • jimino

          Well, they’re not in combat in any rational sense of that term so if it’s not work related they get no compensation. I think their needs trump your need to make hackneyed political points, don’t you?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Actually, Hassan admitted that he joined the other side….

            And you are incorrect. My only concern is for the victims and they are being denied benefits because the regime refuses to acknowledge terrorism — Islamic terrorism.

          • Karl Prahl

            How are those 9/11 first responders holding out?
            Have they all died yet?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            “Fort Hood victims denied benefits”

            http://www.reporternews.com/news/2013/aug/10/fort-hood-victims-8232denied-benefits/

            “Nidal Hasan’s victims fell in combat, not mere workplace violence”
            “http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/20130813-editorial-nidal-hasan-s-victims-fell-in-combat-not-mere-workplace-violence.ece”

            “No Purple Hearts for victims”

            http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/purple-hearts-fort-hood-victims-pentagon/story?id=18845771

          • fun bobby

            I think if you are in uniform and being shot at that’s pretty close

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Harry Reid was exposed today. He was questioned today by a CNN reporter during the ongoing clown-show in DC.

    CNN: “But if you can help one child who has cancer, why wouldn’t you do it?”
    Reid:”Why would we want to do that?”…

    Reid quickly realized his error and launched into an obnoxious tirade berating the reporter for asking the question.

    Will we see this exchange in the national MSM tonight? Would we see it if a GOP leader committed this faux pas? Brian Williams? Diane Sawyer? Tune in at 6:30pm.

    • hennorama

      WftC – that is trumped up crapola, as is the title of the YouTube clip in your post.

      Unlike you, the YouTube video clip didn’t edit out Senator Schumer’s remarks, to which Senator Reid had reacted. This tactic is disingenuous, and you dishonor yourself when you repeat this crapola.

      CNN’s Dana Bash asked Senator Reid a hypothetical question – “the House is presumably going to pass a bill that at least funds the NIH” and would Sen. Reid support a such a bill.

      Senator Reid responded by declaring that “Senator Durbin explained that very well,” then criticized the idea that the House “pick and choose” which parts of the government should be funded.

      Then Ms. Bash followed up by asking, in part, “if you can help one child who has cancer, why wouldn’t you do it?”

      Senator Reid began to answer, then Senator Charles Schumer jumped in, saying “Why pit one against the other?”

      Only at this point, in reaction to Senator Schumer’s remark, did Senator Reid then say “Why would we want to do that? I have 1,100 people at Nellis Air Force base that are sitting home. They have a few problems of their own.”

      Naturally, Speaker John Boehner’s website repeats the misleading deletion of Senator Schumer’s remarks, as do thousands of other websites.

      It simply isn’t true as presented.

      See:
      http://www.speaker.gov/general/top-senate-democrat-helping-kids-cancer-why-would-we-want-do

      • Ray in VT

        They built that.

        • hennorama

          Killed it in three words, you bastage!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Oh Henny, this is clearly the Democrat’s war on the children.

        • Ray in VT

          Did they get a Congressional approval vote for that war, are is it just going to be under 90 days? ;)

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Gee, I’m not sure. Same rules as the GOP ‘war on women’ I suspect.

          • Karl Prahl

            It’s one of those quote on quote “wars”. Like the war on terror or the war on drugs (or the war on poverty, remember that? ha, laughable). The GOP is at war with women but as it’s non-traditional, traditional methods of declaration do not apply. Same with the dem’s war on children. Non-traditional. No approval necessary.

          • Ray in VT

            Why? Have the Democrats broken out the ole ultrasound wands?

          • Bluejay2fly

            Last winning war declared by congress was WW2.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Nice try. You are trying to defend the indefensible. Why? Because Reid is a Democrat?

        Listen again. It is all there.

        And you are defending Reid drawing an equivalence between hundreds of children with cancer being denied care to government employees placed on a week long furlough — where they’ll probably recoup pay anyhow.

        Reid went on to call Bash ‘irresponsible’ and ‘reckless’ while also questioning her intelligence.

        Harry Reid, a class act — NOT.

        • hennorama

          WftC – you’re simply parroting even more trumped up crapola.

          The description of the exchange in my post is accurate, while yours is not. Why did you completely omit Senator Schumer’s remarks? You also mischaracterized Senator Reid’s remarks to Ms. Bash. He did not question her intelligence, and did not call her “ ‘irresponsible’ and ‘reckless’ .“ His tone was admittedly demeaning, and he suggested that her question “maybe means you’re irresponsible and reckless,” but did not say it outright.

          Here’s the entire exchange, from atlanticwire.com (you can confirm its accuracy from the closed captioning in the YouTube clip you cited):

          DANA BASH: You all talked about children with cancer unable to go to clinical trials. The House is presumably going to pass a bill that funds at least the NIH. Given what you’ve said, will you at least pass that? And if not, aren’t you playing the same political games that Republicans are?

          HARRY REID: Listen, Sen. Durbin explained that very well, and he did it here, did it on the floor earlier, as did Sen. Schumer. What right did they have to pick and choose what part of government is going to be funded? It’s obvious what’s going on here. You talk about reckless and irresponsible. Wow. What this is all about is Obamacare. They are obsessed. I don’t know what other word I can use. They’re obsessed with this Obamacare thing. It’s working now and it will continue to work and people will love it more than they do now by far. So they have no right to pick and choose.

          BASH: But if you can help one child who has cancer, why wouldn’t you do it?

          CHUCK SCHUMER: Why pit one against the other?

          REID: Why would we want to do that? I have 1,100 people at Nellis Air Force base that are sitting home. They have a few problems of their own. This is — to have someone of your intelligence to suggest such a thing maybe means you’re irresponsible and reckless –

          BASH: I’m just asking a question.

          Also FTA:

          “In the video, it’s clear that Reid was responding to the point brought up by Schumer — why fund kids with cancer, while ignoring, say, other vulnerable kids, or other populations impacted by the shutdown? Why choose? This has been the Democrats’ stock response to variations on this question, usually from Republicans on the House floor.”

          See:
          http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/10/come-no-harry-reid-doesnt-hate-kids-cancer/70134/

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            hennorama, why are you putting so much effort into defending Harry Reid? He is really a detestable figure.

            Now if actually LISTEN you will hear Reid start to answer BEFORE Schumer interrupts and then Reid goes on to continue his response to the reporter.

            Reid: Wh-Wh [Schumer interupts] Why would we want to do that?…[Reid continues comments directed to the reporter -- no pause]

            And the analyst in the atlanticwire post YOU linked disagrees with you about Reid insulting the reporter.

            I quote:
            “But Reid’s answer, with a testy tone and a follow-up insult to a reporters’ intelligence, caught on.”

            btw- I don’t think Reid hates the children. But his clear priority is not ceding any political advantage — children be damned.

          • hennorama

            WftC – disputing bullspit is just that – disputing bullspit. You have inaccurately described the entire exchange, parroting the nonsense spewed on various websites. What I have done is to set the record straight with an accurate and complete description of the event, omitting nothing. This is in marked contrast to your posts.

            You may wish to reread my original response to you, which fully and accurately described the exchange, including that “Senator Reid began to answer, then Senator Charles Schumer jumped in, saying “Why pit one against the other?” The added [PS] also included accurate reporting from foxnews.com, which stated

            “Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., quietly asked, “Why put [pit] one against the other?”

            “And Reid immediately chimed in: “Why would we want to do that? I have 1,100 people at Nellis Air Force base that are sitting home. They have a few problems of their own.”

            You on the other hand, completely omitted Senator Schumer’s remarks, to which Senator Reid reacted.

            I repeat my question, sir: Why did you completely omit Senator Schumer’s remarks?

            That Abby Ohlheiser on atlanticwire.com disagrees with me by writing that Sen. Reid insulted Ms. Bash’s intelligence is neither here nor there. Senator Reid’s words are clear. He in fact implied that Ms. Bash is HIGHLY intelligent, not the opposite (“…to have someone of your intelligence…”).

            This is hardly an insult, except in certain American political circles, of course.

            Your characterization of Senator Reid’s priorities is both disagreeable and disagreed with.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Which website am I parroting?

            I first heard it on the radio and Schumer’s comment was not intelligible. I then watched it on youtube. If you follow the cadence of Reid’s remarks it is fairly clear he is responding to Bash — not Schumer. I didn’t include Schumer’s remark simply because it didn’t appear relevant.

            Now why did YOU ignore that Reid was responding to Bash BEFORE Schumer chimed in?

            And if you think Reid was somehow praising Bash……there is no hope. He was clearly saying Bash crossed a line with her question.

            Believe what you want. Feel free.

          • hennorama

            WftC – thank you for your response.

            Unlike both yourself and the YouTube video’s title, I ignored absolutely nothing. From the very start, my posts clearly included the accurate and complete sequence of comments, in marked contrast to your own, and in marked contrast to the misleading title of the video.

            The video in your comment is titled “Harry Reid: ‘Why Would We Want To’ Help One Kid With Cancer?” This gives one the false impression that Senator Reid said the entirety of the title, which he absolutely did not.

            If you claim that you were not at all influenced by this misleading title, or by any other website, I will accept that, after first suspending my normal healthy skepticism.

            The YouTube video was posted by ‘The Washington Free Beacon,’ with a link to their online article with the same misleading title as the video. This entity is a conservative organization, with the normal inherent biases. Here’s what they are “About”:

            “The Washington Free Beacon, a project of the 501(c)4 Center for American Freedom, is a nonprofit online newspaper that began publication on February 7, 2012. Dedicated to uncovering the stories that the professional left hopes will never see the light of day, the Free Beacon produces in-depth and investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media criticism.”

            See:
            http://freebeacon.com/about/

            There are thousands of websites posting the same crapola. Again, if you claim that you were not at all influenced by them, I will accept that.

            We have no way of knowing what Senator Reid was going to say before Senator Schumer spoke up. It is certainly well within the realm of possibility that he was going to say EXACTLY the same thing that Schumer did, as you would no doubt admit, based on your prior posting of the following:

            “Reid: Wh-Wh [Schumer interupts]”

            Of course, “Schumer interupts” [sic] by asking “Why pit one against the other?” Clearly Reid could have been starting to ask the EXACT SAME QUESTION before Schumer spoke.

            Your opinion that “Schumer’s remark simply … didn’t appear relevant” is quite convenient to your position, but by omitting it you did not present all of the facts involved. This omission of a material fact slants the entire picture for the reader, and such omission does not enhance your credibility.

            Clearly there are at least three possibilities about the subject comment from Senator Reid:

            1. Reid was simply responding to Schumer’s rhetorical question.
            2. Reid started to say exactly what Schumer said, then added another rhetorical question.
            3. Reid was completing an interrupted response to Ms. Bash’s “gotcha” followup question.

            Your conclusion requires you to ignore Sen. Schumer’s remarks, which immediately preceded the subject words from Sen. Reid. As you wrote “Believe what you want.”

            One hopes that you at least acknowledge to yourself that you may be completely wrong, and that your omission is material.

            As to Reid’s comments to Ms. Bash – I never indicated that they were praise. But certainly Reid was NOT “questioning her intelligence” as you wrote, nor “insult[ing] … a reporters’ intelligence” as Abby Ohlheiser wrote. Reid’s words were a rebuke, not an insult. In essence, Reid was saying “Ms. Bash, you’re more intelligent than your annoying “gotcha” followup question, and asking it “maybe means you’re irresponsible and reckless.”

            Thanks again for your response.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Believe what you want.

            Again, listen to the cadence of Reid’s response. If you want to believe he nimbly responded to Schumer while in the midst of responding to Bash that’s your choice.

            I’ve heard him speak enough to know that he isn’t that good.

            None of this really matters. It is all a clown show. At this point both sides are jockeying for political advantage.

            Finally, I’m not sure why you wasted so much ‘ink’ regarding the free beacon. Unless they edited the video the fact that they posted it to youtube is irrelevant.

          • hennorama

            WftC – TY again for your response.

            The fact that the Washington Free Beacon posted the video IS relevant, due to their biases, and the resultant misleading title they used for both the video and their article. Like you, they completely omitted the material fact of Sen. Schumer’s remarks, making their reporting inaccurate. They are YOUR inaccurate and erroneous source, not mine.

            As stated, there are at least three possibilities about the subject comment from Senator Reid. You fail to acknowledge this, as well as fail to acknowledge your material omission. This does nothing to enhance your credibility.

            No belief is required, as the facts, and the parties involved, speak for themselves.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • OnPointComments

            Hmmm, you believe that Harry Reid wasn’t insulting CNN’s Dana Bash. To have someone of your intelligence to suggest such a thing maybe means you’re irresponsible and reckless.

          • hennorama

            OPC – TY for your response.

            Sen. Reid was NOT insulting Ms. Bash’s intelligence; he was rebuking her for an annoying “gotcha” followup question. As I wrote to another member of the forum, his words were a rebuke, not an insult. In essence, Reid was saying “Ms. Bash, you’re more intelligent than your annoying “gotcha” followup question, and asking it “maybe means you’re irresponsible and reckless.”

            Thanks again for your response.

          • HonestDebate1

            Have you no shame?

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He — more of the same lame defame/blame game, from the selfsame username misname.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll take that as a no.

          • hennorama

            Yet another erroneous assumption, as is your wont.

          • HonestDebate1

            Then clear it up.

          • hennorama

            As the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic says – [Your premise is whacked].

          • HonestDebate1

            Then set me straight. You’re wasting blog space with silliness.

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test – as previously stated:
            “You can lead a G D Smith to logic, but you can’t make him think.”

            Perhaps you might avail yourself of some local help, here:
            http://rese.appstate.edu/

          • hennorama

            Bonehead Test — Please see:

            Madison, James
            Constitution of the United States of America, Amendment I.

          • HonestDebate1

            I read it, it said nothing about shame.

    • John Cedar

      The bigger deal is that the MSN actually asked the question. It is a great question.

  • http://www.skeeterbitesreport.com SkeeterVT

    I’m getting really tired of all this scare talk about the federal government defaulting on its debts if Congress doesn’t raise the debt ceiling by October 17.

    It’s scare talk, pure and simple. The fact is, the federal government is constitutionally prohibited from defaulting on its debt obligations.

    Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment says quite explicitly that “The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.”

    The 1868 federal statute that created the debt ceiling was passed by the post-Civil War Congress to ensure that the federal government — and by extension the former states of the Confederacy — pay the debts that were incurred during the war.

    However, the Supreme Court in 1935 ruled that Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment makes it illegal for the federal government to fail or refuse to meet ANY of its debt obligations.

    Therefore, if Congress fails to raise the debt ceiling, President Obama may very well be forced to invoke Section 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment to prevent a U.S. government debt default.

    With the Supreme Court scheduled to begin its 2013-14 term on Monday, October 7, I would not be surprised if the White House petitioned the justices to intervene and either order Congress to raise the debt ceiling or declare the ceiling itself unconstitutional.

    • Karl Prahl

      Very interesting!
      Out of curiosity, because that amendment and statute predate federal reserve notes, is there a particular requirement into the method of payment? I know somewhere States are required to pay with metal-backed securities (not enforced), but is there any designation on the currencies accepted?
      As two examples: If the North American Union scare produces the “Amero”, would some government body (treasury?) simply decide an exchange rate for the debt and viola or…?
      Could the United States Government print the entirety of the debt (causing massive inflation) but paying it off in the process?

  • Michele

    Quote: “I’m sure people will find they can live with a lot less government.”

    Unfortunately, it’s always the wrong parts that are shut-down. Additionally, the media is not reporting payments to military people accurately. They keep stating military personnel will continue to be paid. Not exactly, they will receive IOUs not their paychecks. Try taking an IOU to the grocery store or the gas station. For that matter try paying utility bills with an IOU. Another Congressional debacle.

    I wonder if Homeland Security personnel are being furloughed.

    • Karl Prahl

      Leave the military and get another job. When an employer stops honoring paychecks, you shouldn’t stay.
      Plenty of people deal with this all over America on a weekly basis.

      I will add that it’s shameful for an employer to do this, but it’s hardly uncommon. Check out the construction and agricultural industries for some of the worst offenders.

      • Michele

        I hope the first part of your reply was tongue-in-cheek. Aren’t we in a weakened job market? Where would the military personnel go to find a job? Moreover if they have one they should be paid – time for money that’s how it works (or should). No doubt Congress is getting paid.

        • jefe68

          He’s a troll. Ignore him.

        • fun bobby

          walmart has pledged to hire every veteran who applies

          • fun bobby

            yes that’s a horrible thing downvote it!

        • Karl Prahl

          Start a new business. Agriculture always needs hands. There are huge incentives through the USDA and FSA for first time farmers and ranchers.
          Notice a service lacking in your area? Business opportunity.
          For those that do not consider violence an option, these have been the choices for years.
          And I agree that it is hypocritical for congress to get paid and a soldier not to. However in this situation, as Congress is the money-man so to speak, they are also the boss.
          Take them to court and sue for back wages.

          • Karl Prahl

            The down voting makes it clear my sentiments are not popular.
            I’ve heard of this practice for companies that are downsizing. They ask each employee to re-apply by explaining what they do and how it is pivotal to business function.
            Any U.S. Military or DoD employee please take on this challenge.
            What do you offer to the American Public that makes you indispensable? What does your position offer to the common good?

    • fun bobby

      for some reason one of the most recently created departments is essential

  • HonestDebate1

    Here’s a Rand Paul Tweet:

    @BarackObama sent 7 security guards to #WWIIMemorial this AM to keep out our vets. Sadly, that is 2 more than were present in Benghazi.

    • Karl Prahl

      In Obama’s defense, he probably wasn’t involved in that decision.
      However, it is telling that someone in government decided that this was a good use of resources.
      Let’s give those guys more of our hard work.

      • HonestDebate1

        While I do agree with your premise, the buck stops somewhere.

        “The buck stops with you” – Barrack Obama

  • Coastghost

    Sometime this month I’d like to hear President Obama explain Senator Obama’s quote of 16 March 2006: “The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. … I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.” (This did somehow slip past “Morning Edition” co-host Steve Inskeep the other day in his Obama interview, I surmise, else I’m sure we’d’ve heard all about it by now.)

    • lobstahbisque

      Honey, that ship sailed long ago and many times again. The role of Senator and President seem rather different to most reasonable people. The fact is that using the debt limit to make political points has been on the rise for some time, the Republicans of course, upping the ante in a quantum way.

      • Karl Prahl

        Yeah Coastghost. What someone says before they are President should not be taken into account when accounting for their actions as President. That’s ludicrous! Bonkers! Apples and Oranges my friend.

        • lobstahbisque

          Careful hon. You don’t want to have another of your posts deleted. Apples and oranges is a cliche rendered meaningless by overuse. Why don’t you calm down and work on that turgid prose of yours. If you can’t write clearly, you can’t think clearly. Shocking news to you I know.

          • Karl Prahl

            What post got deleted? I’m glad someone is keeping track! Need to bring down the hammer on the first amendment, yes?
            And you didn’t pick up on the sarcasm. It is ok LB. Keep paying your taxes and checking the boxes. Your voice matters :-)

          • 1Brett1

            I actually did laugh out loud on this one… You get a thumbs up on a number of levels and for a number of reasons, but noticing how K.P’s platitudinal prattle gets pegged down even further on the respect scale by his “turgid prose” is about as spot on as a comment can be!

          • 1Brett1

            KP, you must hang out here all day and night, no?

          • lobstahbisque

            Aw shucks.

          • Karl Prahl

            http://jim.com/treason.htm
            Platitudes or not, my stance has substance as I can explain it.
            Justify your use of force at any level if you would be so kind. Actually explain and justify your use of coercion or force using logic.
            Sadly, this will not happen. It is easier to fling mud and utilize ad hominem than to formulate sensible ideas. One more reason why our public can’t seem to take care of itself anymore.
            And my inbox does a little ding when someone replies to a comment. At the moment it’s helping to flesh out some of my own theories :-) Get to dig up articles and re-read essays I haven’t in awhile. I hope you get as much out of your time as I do.

          • lobstahbisque

            My comments are not personal, they are aesthetic. End of discussion. Oh and by the way, hell hath no fury like a faggot’s scorn. Store that.

          • 1Brett1

            You just think your defense of your ideology (which seems to be a kind of pastiche of philosophies, a kind of junkyard philosophy, if you will, based a lot on aspects of libertarianism) has substance.

            It is a simplistic view of a complex world. And it levels a finger-wagging chastisement at anyone who doesn’t subscribe to the same pseudo- intellectual mish-mash view of yours. You were right down unkind to the woman in the military. Find another job? That also lacks as much humanity and empathy as telling someone else to move if they don’t like government. (you think your crass comments and hip-shooting ad hominems are justified, while others who do so are not (when you said that yesterday it revealed your arrogance).

            What do you do to better the world but perpetuate your version of armchair activism online? You are on a crusade in your own mind.

            You know, we have had others prance on this forum like you and right away feel the need to pigeonhole others, tell others what is the best way to think, tell others how they are flawed in their own thinking, feel the need to respond to an inordinate amount of comments (pace yourself, dude), in addition to regularly answering their own comments, etc.

            Careful, you’ll burn yourself out, quick.

          • Karl Prahl

            That entire wall included nothing but an opinion. Would you care to address the essay or answer the question of what indispensable service is being offered by said military personnel?
            As for my pace.. I’m sure it will fade too.
            A l’impossible nul n’est tenu.

          • HonestDebate1

            I find it annoying when someone tells me what I think and then criticizes me for thinking it. It happens a lot around here. Be prepared to have replies be more about some perception of you than the issue at hand. That’s the way these guys roll.

          • 1Brett1

            Maybe you’d like to debate him on military personnel not being worthy enough to justify their existence or service? Or perhaps you’d just like to agree with him? I would rather not waste my time on such crassness and self-righteous rudeness toward a member of the military. Either way it doesn’t warrant something that is an “issue at hand.”

            I notice your reply had nothing but some catch-all perception about “these guys” on this forum, but that’s okay; it’s different when you do it, right?

          • jefe68

            Of course it’s different. Because he’s a super hero, he’s Southern Dude!
            Able to make inane comments at the speed of, well he’s a little slow…

            It’s Southern Dude! Who can make the leap from small ideas to even smaller ones while overlooking the big picture in a single sentence.

            By day he’s a mild mannered gent tending his horse farm and vegetable patch. Then as soon as you can mutter the words tea party, or put up with a few lines of Freebird, he is in his foil hat and cape and is off in the Freebird mobile. He’s in search of free internet service to launch into his latest diatribe about Obama… and his arch enemies, the liberals!!!….. or climate scientist!!, or…librarians, or progressives, which ever comes first.

            It’s Southern Dude…“It’s not about me”….
            heck yeah it is.

          • jefe68

            But it is about you. You write the inane comments that reflect your points of view and opinions.

          • lobstahbisque

            So if it’s getting so hot in here, why don’t you leave? Your presence doesn’t add anything to the discussion.

          • HonestDebate1

            Why would I leave? This blog needs me. It’s not hot, I love pointing out the shallowness of the liberal mind. I’ve been commenting here on this very dynamic for years now.

          • lobstahbisque

            The liberal mind created Western Civilization by the way, just in case you forgot, or never knew.

          • Karl Prahl

            It’s hardly just “these guys”. All revolutionaries are radicals. All people who bring real change are radicals. Few people treat radicals well. I’m used to it, even if occasionally my better judgment is clouded by their sentiments. Live and learn, right?

            This is a good short on the evils inherent with authority as seen through police.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SylM2vtd-u0&feature=youtu.be

            This starts with a fictional story written and read by Larken Rose. It’s very entertaining.

            http://www.gnosticmedia.com/larken-rose-interview-pt-2-government-the-fallacy-of-ad-verecundiam-pt-1-136/

            If you have the time, check them out.

          • jefe68

            Grow up.

          • 1Brett1

            Notice he called his drivel an “essay”?!

          • lobstahbisque

            Wow. Thanx.

        • jefe68

          So let me parse what the subtext is.
          You think, as the other regressive does, that people in politics should be able to change their minds and views on things?
          That they have to be stanch ideologues who never waver no matter what they are presented with. I can see how you don’t seem to do nuance very well.

          • 1Brett1

            As if cognitive dissonance is desirable in a political leader.

  • JGC

    How does this really work with President Obama meeting with the CEO banksters from Goldman Sachs, B of A, JP Morgan, etc? They are summoned and meet in the White House, and earnestly discuss the government shutdown and ways to stop it, and then they all cordially say good-bye, and collect their government subpoenas and mortgage crisis fines on their way back to their limos. The U.S. is fining JP Morgan $11-billion, and now they are going after Wells Fargo. I mean, how does this really work? It all sounds very Sam Sheepdog and Ralph E. Coyote.

    • Karl Prahl

      http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf

      This is how the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago says it works.

      • JGC

        Too much information! Is there a Cliff Notes version?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Coercion ? Stockholm syndrome? Hostage video? Conflict of interest? They all come to mind.

      • JGC

        I know I am definitely feeling like a hostage in this melodrama. Maybe I can get Tom Hanks to play me in the film version.

    • JGC

      Hey! Who gave me a downvote on that comment? Jamie? Jamie Dimon, was that you? You little bankster rascal you! (gently chuckle and shake head ruefully side to side)

  • gslouch

    Hope this will finally open the eyes of Americans to the true nature of the despicable Republican party. Oh yea, we want to help ordinary Americans. What a bunch of garbage. The only ones the repubs are for is themselves and big business. Sorry buddy but the ACA is a law. Now working Americans are suffering because of the knuckleheads in the House. Disgusting!

  • HonestDebate1

    When I first heard about the WWII memorial being closed because of the shutdown I thought is was just unnecessary grandstanding like when they quit the White House Tours during the sequester. The poor kids and the disrespected heroes are the perfect fodder to be exploited by this heartless administration.

    But I didn’t realize the WWII memorial has no fee, no infrastructure, no employees, no gates and no possible connection to the shutdown. It was an extra effort and expense to attempt to wall it off. It pure politics, pure evil. This is disgusting.

    Does anyone fall for this kind of disgusting display? Does anyone come away thinking the Republicans caused this? Will any of the libs here condemn the nastiness?

    • jefe68

      Yeah, most Americans do. Here’s why. It was the House tea party faction along with the GOP that caused this.
      You comment is pretty pathetic.

      • 1Brett1

        He also failed to mention the little sideshow/grandstand/political theatre by Bachmann, Goehmert and King. They voted to shut the government down, then went to the WWII Memorial, made a big show of tearing down the closed gates of the memorial (because of the shut down) and acted all patriotic, as if they are helping to keep something open that they assisted in shutting down…amazing!

        • HonestDebate1

          I can’t believe you are defending this. There is no way on earth you can connect the dots between the shut down and barricading the memorial. None. You can’t do it because there is nothing to close. Are you really that brainwashed by ideology?

          [edit] The last question was rhetorical.

          • 1Brett1

            Yeah, national parks and monuments require no maintenance/upkeep…sure, Let’s just fire all personnel that work at these public facilities, they are not needed. Park Rangers? Pfft. That scaffolding that has been around the Washington Monument for repairs? That’s just been for show. Yeah, got it. I just think otherwise because I’m an ideologue…okay.

            Bachmann, Goehmert and King did not vote for the shutdown to stop the ACA; that’s just lying. They didn’t show up at the WWII monument to grandstand; they were there to show their gratitude to the PEOPLES! Where do I get my nonsense from? They’re just patriots proving to Americans that laws regarding national parks and monuments shouldn’t be followed/if you don’t like following stupid laws, you don’t have to; it’s the patriotic thing to do….whatever.

            Have you never seen someone at a national park/monument vandalize anything? Who needs security guards at these places? If no one is there to ensure people behave themselves, why should the gates to the places be closed? WE, THE PEOPLES, NEED TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OFF OUR FEDERAL LAND!!!

          • HonestDebate1

            You can visit the WWII memorial 24/7/365. There is nothing to close.

          • 1Brett1

            This is the kind of grandstanding nonsense your patriot political leaders are pulling:

            http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Congressman-Confronts-Park-Ranger-Over-Closed-WWII-Memorial-226209781.html

      • HonestDebate1

        You’re wrong but I understand you have drank the kool-aid so let’s just say you are correct and it is all on the Tea Party. Fine.

        Why spend the money and time to clause off access to the WWII memorial?

    • Bruce94

      The crocodile tears you’re shedding for our “disrespected heroes” are indeed impressive. Perhaps your concern for them and their sacrifice would appear more credible if you and your ilk supported programs that would actually help our living heroes including the American Jobs Act, the Veterans Job Corp and the Infrastructure Bank — all of which would have been of real, material benefit to our veterans, their families and communities.

      Rather than going “wacko bird” over the WWII memorial, maybe you and your ilk could re-think the govt. shutdown and sequester cuts (which the GOP in spite of all their contortions cannot avoid owning) that cause real pain for the families and communities of the “disrespected heroes” that are being invoked for partisan gain.

      I guess it’s possible that your crocodile tears are the result of Bogorad’s syndrome and you simply have no control over your utterances. Thanks to the Tea Party-sponsored sequester and govt. shutdown, if you’re a veteran with Bogorad’s syndrome and are applying for benefits or trying to get admitted to a VA hospital right now, you’re out of luck with longer waiting times and backlogs.

      • HonestDebate1

        My question is why is the government spending money to barricade the WWII memorial?

        I’m not going to argue the rest of your comment partially because it’s a waste of time, partially because it has nothing to do with my comment but mostly because you play a mean piano.

        • Bruce94

          I don’t know the precise answer to your question, but suspect if may have something to do with the reduced security in the area due to the impact of sequester/govt. shutdown. Maybe the memorial was barricaded to make it harder for vandals to deface.

          Anyway, my point was that the failure to avoid sequestration and govt. shutdown and to fund job/infrastructure programs for our returning military heroes (vets) is a lot more relevant to their lives and families as well as the families of our fallen heroes than the memorial.

          As to your suggestion that I still play a mean piano, that certainly did diffuse my anger. It would be more accurate, however, to say I USED to play a mean piano (although that might be a stretch). Right now, thanks to aging and ennui, I’m mostly confined to playing cocktail music and reinventing old standards.

          I used to work in a Dixieland band with a drummer whom I viewed politically as slightly to the right of Genghis Khan. So I think I can get along with most folks. If I came across as off point and over-the-top, my apologies.

          • HonestDebate1

            No apology necessary, this place has that effect on us all and you came across fine.

            I think the police still are working, IMO it was all about optics.

  • HonestDebate1

    Another thing I find disgusting is the notion that there is anyone trying to prevent people from getting health care. It’s ridiculous and an complete non-sequitur. Obama is screaming the lie, does anyone buy it?

    • fun bobby

      at least 4 people

  • Fredlinskip

    Seems GOP’s current stance is a bit askew?

    You don’t shut down the government and/or threaten to damage economy, because you don’t like the results of elections, or legislative processes, or the Supreme court. Founders would be rolling in their graves too see what GOP is doing. It’s ridiculous.

    There were plenty of unhappy Dems during W years. I don’t recall them threatening to damage their own country just to make a point.

    • jefe68

      THat’s how they roll. The nihilist have taken over the GOP.

  • jefe68

    “We’re not going to be disrespected,” Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

    Oy vay. What a maroon… or this come to mind:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xrw0gbnNuU

  • HonestDebate1

    Optics for 2014.

  • Robert G.H. McCausland

    Thank you, Diane Swonk! “VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES.”
    Someone on the national stage is finally saying it.
    If elections matter, primary elections matter even more so.
    The Rs need to embrace this advice, not just throw up their hands.

    Tom – you should do a whole show on this – get Norm Ornstein or his ilk. And please: Bring this up in every conversation about Congress going forward.

    “The other issue is: Vote in the primaries. One of the problems with our system now is that very few people vote in the primaries, so a very minority of people determine the outcome for both parties of who’s going to run in the general election. And that has limited the choice of people and also now limiting the quality of people who are willing to run. And I think that’s very important, as well, is that, you know, vote, get out there and vote in the primaries so that we can avoid some of this sort of disconnect moving forward.”
    Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial, final comment on WBUR’s “On Point”, 10/2/13.

  • fun bobby

    i’m not familiar with roger prince. he was apparently also a bad speller

    • lobstahbisque

      No. You are dyslexic. Really, it’s nothing to be ashamed of.

  • 1Brett1

    This is the kind of grandstanding nonsense Republican leaders are pulling:

    http://www.nbcwashington.com/n

  • Bob_in_RI

    The House is ready to vote this problem away but Boehner yet tightens his grip on the throat of democracy. He is a traitor who should be led from the Capitol in handcuffs.

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