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Week In The News: Shutdown Threat, Kenya Terror, Iran

Shutdown mania.  Nairobi’s mall of terror.  The olive branch from Iran.  Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Soldiers from the Kenyan Defense Forces gather at the entrance to the Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya Thursday, Sept. 26, 2013. (AP)

Soldiers from the Kenyan Defense Forces gather at the entrance to the Westgate Mall in Nairobi, Kenya Thursday, Sept. 26, 2013. (AP)

Green eggs and ham on the floor of the US Senate this week.  And a storm of politics and power plays all round.  The US government may well shut down Monday night.  The Affordable Care Act – Obamacare – for now rolls on.

At a mall in Nairobi, Kenya – the terror nightmare.  Blood and death and collapse on people who just went out to shop.

And at the United Nations in New York, a tone we have not heard in years from Iran.  Big talk of a diplomatic drive to turn around bitter years of nuclear standoff.  We shall see.

This hour, On Point:  our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

- Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Nancy Cordes, congressional correspondent for CBS News. (@nancycordes)

David Sanger, chief Washington correspondent for the New York Times. (@sangernyt)

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

The New York Times: Obama, an Evolving Doctrine on Foreign Policy – ”For five years, President Obama has publicly struggled with the question of when America is willing to act as the world’s policeman, and when he will insist that others take the lead, or at least share the risks, costs and resentments it engenders.”

BBC: Kenya siege: Nairobi shopping mall searched for bodies – ”Kenyan and foreign forensics teams are searching the Westgate shopping complex in Nairobi amid uncertainty over how many bodies they may find following the four-day siege by Islamist militants. Sixty-seven people are so far known to have died.”

The Washington Post: House Republicans explore strategy to avoid federal government shutdown –”With federal agencies set to close their doors in five days, House Republicans began exploring a potential detour on the path to a shutdown: shifting the fight over President Obama’s health-care law to a separate bill that would raise the nation’s debt limit. If it works, the strategy could clear the way for the House to approve a simple measure to keep the government open into the new fiscal year, which will begin Tuesday, without hotly contested provisions to defund the Affordable Care Act.”

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  • Mike_Card

    Ted Cruz is the leading dipshit in a gang of dipshits. He is one of the best examples of why Texass ought to be expelled from the union.

    • brettearle

      Basically, he hurts his own cause.

      Let him self-destruct on his own.

      He does nothing but to garner public support against his Radical Wing.

      • HonestDebate1

        Thee is nothing more radical in American politics than Obamacare. Cruz is on the sane side of the argument.

        • brettearle

          HD–

          You are ignoring the Polls, when you insert your comment above.

          The Public doesn’t think that Cruz’s actions are sane.

          With regard to ACA, it’s the, “What Have You Done For Me, Lately”, syndrome that makes much of the Public suspicious.

          The ACA is DESIGNED to save money OVER THE LONG RUN…..Is THE point.

          *********

          Apologies to you about not yet exploring the Limbaugh issue:

          I’m busy like you are.

          If you’re still willing to read my reactions, I will try, eventually, to get to it.

          But I can tell you that your opinion of Limbaugh’s championing of the song, “Barack, the Magic….”, is very similar to the incident in the California legislature, I think it was (some years ago, now), with regard to a word that SOUNDS like a derogatory word about race.

          The guy who said it, either “knew or should have known.”

          • HonestDebate1

            The public hates Obamacare and Obama’s approval is in the low 40′s. That’s what the polls say.

          • brettearle

            Obama’s approval ratings don’t compare, whatsoever, to the Public’s low approval ratings of Congress.

            And it is Senator Cruz, single-handedly, who is responsible for making Congress’s approval ratings worse.

            Is the point.

            That’s what the polls say, backatya.

          • John_in_Amherst

            more precisely, the public hates the image of the ACA that has been painted in various shades of lies and distortions by the GOP and FOX

          • jefe68

            But you have to admit the Obama administration has done an appalling job of educating the public on the ACA and promoting the ACA.

          • John_in_Amherst

            sad but true

          • brettearle

            They absolutely have.

            And the President has had AMPLE time to have done something about it.

          • TFRX

            The Administration did a bad job?

            Thank Upchuck Todd. Thank a media who would just sit by like wimps afraid of calling liars liars, and then say “Why didn’t the White House sell it better, WH Press Secretary?”

            I can’t even come up with a historical comparison. When the polio vaccine was introduced, half the commercial media didn’t say “It’s poison, poison I tells ya!”

          • Don_B1

            Just to see how well the TeaRepublicans and Fox, etc., have maligned the PPACA, note that the public approves the ACA by 46% and Obamacare by 37% in one poll.

            When the same item is given approval ratings that differ by 9%, there is clearly something else going on than the public actually understanding what they are responding to. And those that do understand generally support the health insurance reform.

            But note also that the public does not want the PPACA repealed or defunded, they want legislators to work together and fix what they have been led to believe is wrong; even that may change in favor of less fixing and more support for implementation, as the signup period begins and lets people see more of how it will help them with their insurance selection and costs.

            The last is exactly why the Teapublicans are so desperate to kill “Obamacare” before the enrollment begins that they will consider shutting down the government.

          • HonestDebate1

            Small business is feeling it big time and that translates into fewer jobs when we desperately need more jobs.

          • John_in_Amherst

            the stock GOP/FOX line. Dubious claim, and the best argument yet for single payer

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s reality.

          • John_in_Amherst

            the dubious claim part

          • HonestDebate1
          • John_in_Amherst

            Thanks HD1. I stand corrected.

            so bear with me :
            The list is great support for the notion that the US should have 1) single payer, not-associated-with-employment health care, and/or, 2) a higher minimum wage

            Given: there is a crisis in U.S. healthcare, as evidenced by the number of uninsured, the fact that they often use the ER as primary care (even though the cost -to us all- of an ER visit averages $700 + diminution of ER services for everyone), the numerous indicators that demonstrate the US DOES NOT have the best medical system (as measured by infant mortality, life expectancy, etc.) and the percentage of bankruptcies that are directly related to medical expenses (and the fact that the current system then absorbs those costs and passes them on to all of us in increased premiums and billing costs).

            Now the GOP proposes to turn the country away from health care insurance exchanges (originally their own idea), and wants to at least partially defund medicare, medicaid, and does not offer any solution for the currently uninsured, I am forced to assume their view on health care is either, 1.) there is no problem (in which case, a psych exam is warranted) or 2.) let the sick die, in which case I wish the right would stop masquerading as “Christian”, as Christ charged his followers to care for the sick and poor.

            finally, if you have 11 minutes to spare, please consider this: http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_wilkinson.html

          • HonestDebate1

            I disagree completely. A single payer system means government has control over every aspect of your life. what if I like twinkles, cheerwine, motorcycles and poisonous snakes? Minimum wage hikes always hurt the poor.

            I’ll listen to TED.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            “The ACA is DESIGNED to save money OVER THE LONG RUN…..Is THE point.”

            Actually, many on both the left and right believe Obamacare was designed to collapse the current health care system and therefore pave the way for single payer to rise from the ashes.

            It looks like it is well on its way.

          • brettearle

            Are you suggesting that Single-Payer is not cost effective?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Not at all.

            However, the is zero evidence Obamacare is bending the cost curve downward. We shouldn’t be surprised since it didn’t lower costs in MA either.

          • nlpnt

            And you can thank Sarah Palin and her “Death Panels” demagoguery for that. Cost-control mechanisms were stripped from the ACA in response to it.

          • brettearle

            There is Zero Evidence because it has only been BARELY implemented as yet.

            That’s the point about Impatience and the, “What Have You Done For Me, Lately?” syndrome.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            You are assuming that the ‘trial’ period will be at worst benign to both the economy and the health care system. Let’s just hope that Dr.s don’t continue to retire in droves.

          • brettearle

            I think that it will not be benign. And I also think that it will also appear malignant, for a while, when, indeed, it IS benign.

            MDs are changing their careers and practices, not because of ACA directly.

            The changes in Entitlement Programs are cost effective measures that are being erroneously interpreted as the downside of ACA.

            These changes would have occurred, eventually, anyway.

          • John_in_Amherst

            dealing with the present insurance system is a main driver of docs retiring. As a practitioner, I now spend up to 25% of my day jumping through insurance company hoops. I like healing people. I hate the complexity, inconsistency, the callous insanity wrought by the insurance industry.

          • jefe68

            Single payer is the only way to go with regulated not for profit insurance companies.

          • John_in_Amherst

            there are also “hybrid” options, such as in Germany, where there is a basic level of healthcare provided for through the government, with the option of purchasing insurance riders through private companies

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            All fair points.

            However, ‘callous insanity’ comes to mind when thinking about giving it over to a government run monopoly. Think of the DMV but increase the complexity 1000 fold.

          • Don_B1

            Bullpucky on all counts!

            The PPACA was designed to provide health insurance for all, and has made an important step toward that goal as the remaining uninsured can be brought in once this step has had the kinks worked out.

            It also was designed to gather information about what parts of healthcare delivery worked well and which needed some changes and, while some of what the creators wanted to do was prevented by Teapublicans, it still does a lot of that.

            Thus, as Massachusetts did this spring, further steps can be taken to move the healthcare delivery system into modified and new modes which will deliver better care at lower prices.

            In such a large system, with a lot of people getting their health care paid for by their employer and being relatively happy with that although troubled by the growing costs that employers are pushing on them, they are reluctant to embrace something totally new.

            It is that reluctance that Teapublicans have been working on to influence polls. But that is only temporary.

        • Michiganjf

          Good God… you didn’t learn a thing from all your failed La La Land predictions before the 2012 elections, did you?

          • HonestDebate1

            Nobody likes it, not doctors, not unions and not Congress who has exempted themselves. Obama delayed yet another provision the other day bringing it to 20. It’s a disaster.

          • AC

            i like it tho. and i’m at least a step above being a nobody…

          • Wm_James_from_Missouri

            “Nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded” , Yogi B..

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re somebody AC. Why do you like it?

          • AC

            i missed the show this morning, which may have helped me answer this.
            not that i expect the country to be jesus-y, or ‘christian-y’, but they’re something to be said for a society that doesn’t have to witness suffering among the old and the sick. i know it ‘costs’ a lot, but do we want to be civilized or not??
            also, purely for self-serving reasons, i have a chronic condition, it’s fine now that i’m young and working and have insurance, but if i lost my job or something, i could NEVER have afforded insurance, even if they were FORCED to accept me, the price would be outrageous. i have told my husband that if something happens to the ACA and i lose my job, i will stop taking everything i’m on and just go as quickly as possible. i’m not going to bankrupt my family because i’m screwed up…

          • HonestDebate1

            Well, I appreciate the reply but I certainly would not regard opposition to Obamacare as condoning the suffering of the old and sick. I don’t even think the old and sick were the ones Obamacare was designed for. It’s really aimed at the young and healthy. I also think there are better ways to take care of people in your position than requiring insurance companies to turn the actuarial tables on their head and ignore pre-existing conditions. I really think we could save a ton of money by just buying you, and those in your predicament, health insurance. I like Ben Carson’s ideas. I think a lot of things could be improved upon but Obamacare doesn’t do that. IMO, it does not help the old and sick at all.

          • Michiganjf

            Clueless, or intentionally blind…

            Of the 52% who say they “don’t like it,” 60% wanted more, as in a single payer system, or they want it IMPROVED, not abolished.

            Almost everyone likes the ACA when asked about its constituent provisions.

            Even among Republicans, a FAUX NEWS poll showed that there was a NINE PERCENT swing when the question was merely worded differently, asking once about Obamacare, the next time calling it the Affordable Care Act.
            46% didn’t like it when called Obamacare, but that changed to just 37% when it was called the Affordable Care Act!

            CLUELESS!

          • John_in_Amherst

            HD1: try taking a survey to see how many docs like the current insurance / lack-there- of system that the ACA will help eliminate. Most of the “delayed provisions” are not Obama’s doing. Reforming healthcare is something that is imperative for the economy and for the society. ACA is a first step. What has the opposition offered as an alternative?? status quo that benefits big money interests.

          • HonestDebate1

            I hear you but opposition to this disaster does not equal opposition to health care reform.

          • TFRX

            No right-wing pundit ever gets punished when their cheerleading fails. Why should our TPC troll expect worse?

    • Don_B1
  • Wm_James_from_Missouri

    Phase one singularity:

    Graphene, graphene, graphene , graphene , graphene,
    graphene, graphene , graphene , graphene, graphene, graphene ,graphene ,graphene,graphene,graphene, — —————–Black Gold ———
    graphene, graphene , graphene , graphene, graphene,
    graphene, graphene, graphene, graphene, graphene,
    graphene, graphene , graphene , graphene, graphene,

    Phase two singularity :

    Stanford scientists build first carbon nanotube computer.

    http://www.gizmag.com/carbon-nanotube-computer-cnt-stanford/29182/

    • AC

      thanks for this – i’ve been trying to get them to include a ‘tech-minute’ at least! on this show…
      here was my eye-catcher of the week – i REALLY want one when they come out, course they’re soooo pricey, it stinks!

      http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/21/tesla-motors-aiming-build-self-driving-car-within-three-years-elon-musk-says/

      • Wm_James_from_Missouri

        Yes, and I would love to see , “How To” videos and text about technology. You know, a “hands on” kind of tutorial about tech.

    • SteveTheTeacher

      Let me know when a bioelectric implant is on the market that will make sure I can find my keys in the morning.

      • Wm_James_from_Missouri

        It’s hell to get old !

        Spicing up you bodies abilities may be more possible than some believe. In one of Kurzweil’s books he states that a cubic centimeter of carbon nanotubes has more computing capacity than 100 million human minds ! I would hope that, that would be enough brain power to help you find your keys.

        When I was a dumb kid in the fourth grade, ( as opposed to a dumb adult, approaching the grave) I was fooling around and stuck a pencil into the palm of my hand. Well, the “lead” broke off and lodged in my skin. It is still there, today. I have had zero problems with this carbon nanotube “pre-pre-processor. Of course I guess it is possible that this chunk of graphite was truly a self forming super computer that was capable of creating a virtual world that is preventing “me” from recognizing that I died at my desk, there in the fourth grade !

    • fun bobby

      my thinking is that if we don’t see a society collapse soon we will have to deal with the singularity and that could get wierd

      • Wm_James_from_Missouri

        Of course it is possible that the “Singularity” could deem us “weird” Because” we collapsed our societies, and declare, ’enough is enough’ !

        • fun bobby

          its down to whether its the matrix or just terminator

  • Ed75

    This week President Putin expressed concern over the secularization of Europe and the West and said that Russia, for one, would hold on to its Christian heritage and values. (Reminds me of when the EU unbelievably refused to make mention of its Europe’s Christian roots in its charter.) It sounded like President Putin could have been reading from the letter Pope Francis sent him a few weeks ago during the attack on Syria crisis.

    • northeaster17

      Ya Putin the Christian. Talk about a marriage of convience.

  • Ed75

    In 1973 the U.S. made abortion part of healthcare, and is only one of three countries that allows abortion during all nine months of pregnancy. After 40 years, we are watching the healthcare system collapse. (With more older people, and fewer younger people, and no lowering of costs, either premiums will go up, or the government will cover the costs and go bankrupt. Even if it doesn’t collapse and goes as the president hopes, it has and will continue to bitterly divide the country.)
    God has a sense of humor, using the area of our fault to show us our error. “If you’re going to insist that abortion be part of healthcare, you won’t have healthcare.”

    • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

      Thank you for channeling God’s true intentions to us mere mortals. You’ve been polishing that halo of yours, haven’t you!

      • Ed75

        If God didn’t use flawed instruments, he wouldn’t have many instruments to use …

    • fun bobby

      when we did so there was a decline in street crime about 14 years later. the bible is full of infanticide. the abortion thing was manufactured in the 70′s to create a wedge issue to keep the catholics relevent

    • J__o__h__n

      Didn’t the Pope say to give this a rest?

  • HonestDebate1

    Y’all gotta admit that Cruz’s speech was better than having a Democrat klansman going on about his dog Billy.

    • Ray in VT

      Do you have something against one of North Carolina’s finest taking a stand to defend Southern traditions and the Southern way of life? Next thing you know you’ll be knocking Jesse Helms.

      • HonestDebate1

        Jesse Helm was trapped in an elevator with Carol Moseley Braun and threatened to whistle “Dixie” unit she cried. Why on earth would I knock him?

        • TFRX

          Wow, you’re a class act.

          • jefe68

            Yeah, he’s a real pill.
            Next he’ll be posting our negative responses and crying foul.
            Yeah he’s a real class act alright.

          • HonestDebate1

            Me or Jesse?

          • Don_B1

            Both of you are “class acts” ! !

            And advocates for class warfare.

          • HonestDebate1

            C’mon, lighten up! That was funny, it really happened. They were friends and worked together well especially by today’s standards.

          • TFRX

            Yeah, they were friends as long as the black lady didn’t object to whatever that sick racist ass did.

            As long as she didn’t get uppity, things were cool!

          • HonestDebate1

            The best I remember the story, she gave it right back to him. They were rivals but they worked it out. And thank you for pointing out what a tough racket politics is. Being called a sick racist ass is way worse than having Dixie whistled atcha. Ms. Braun was no wallflower, she doesn’t need you to stick up for her.

          • hennorama

            TFRX — as I wrote to another forum member:

            “While I generally agree with the tenor of your comments, and generally disagree with Gregg’s comments, I can’t in any way condone the use of the word ‘racist,’ as no one but Gregg knows what is in his heart. In addition, one can think and believe anything they wish. One’s actions can confirm one’s beliefs, as they speak much louder than words. Without evidence of action, an observer has no confirmation, and is left only with suspicion.

            “Certainly …such suspicion is not unreasonable”

            And BTW — you have an extra “c” and an extra “l” in your first sentence for some reason.

            “Schoolmarm Says”: that’s one demerit.

            ;-)

        • Ray in VT

          Well, supporting dickishness is a pretty consistent part of your M.O.

    • brettearle

      Why dig up some gutter stuff about a politician who renounced his racial intolerance, decades earlier, and was a strong advocate of animal rights?

      The Right Wing mentality, of making this kind of salacious comment, moves a bit closer to the primitive Right Wing mentality of accusing Hillary Clinton of murdering Vince Foster and Ted Kennedy of murdering Mary Jo Kopechne.

      [What Kennedy did was unbelievably reckless and irresponsible, but it was NOT murder.]

      • nlpnt

        I’ll give you the fishing expedition on the Clintons, but Jesse Helms and Ted Kennedy belong in a history class, not a discussion of *current* events and policy.
        Let the Righties talk about 1968 as though it was yesterday. We DON’T want young people to tune out, they do.

        • brettearle

          By pointing out the worst in political propaganda of the past, and comparing it to the drivel we get here, I am making an attempt to discourage Smut, generally, in the future.

          If you think that you are going to stop the “Right Wing Attack Machine” by remaining on the sidelines, you are sadly mistaken.

          It is UP to young people to LISTEN and TUNE IN, to what is REALLY going on.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yea, except no one here ever said Hilary and Ted were murderers as far as I can recall. So it’s a bit of a leap. It’s telling someone what they think then criticizing them for thinking it.

            My comment was about Byrd, nothing else. He was loved for his grandfatherly filibusters and I think it’s appropriate to draw the distinction. It is what it is, you don’t have to like it.

          • brettearle

            The Republican “Right Wing Attack Machine” has a Big Tent

            [Even though its demographic tent is quite small.]

            It’s no leap when I say the following about comments of Byrd and the KKK:

            They INCH closer to comments about former Secretary of State Clinton and the late Senator Kennedy.

            I DIDN”T say those comments had reached that point and level in castigation.

            But the comments, about Byrd, are, nevertheless, MEAN-spirited.

          • HonestDebate1

            My comment about Byrd was accurate.

          • brettearle

            They are NOT accurate.

            He renounced being a Klansman, decades ago.

            And if he were one, anyone in the Senate would be guilty by association–on both sides of the aisle–who did business with him.

            Your assertions are OBNOXIOUS AND IRRESPONSIBLE.

            And when you make them, people lose respect for you.

            How many, here, on this forum–who support your political views, generally–CAME TO YOUR DEFENSE ON THIS ONE?

            Huh?

            HOW MANY?

          • HonestDebate1

            Have you seen some of the nasty things said about Cruz? Byrd, the former kleagle was praised for filibustering. It is what it is.

          • brettearle

            Why can’t I assume that you saw my harsh criticism of some irrational commenter, on this Thread, comparing Cruz to a genocidal Fascist?

          • brettearle

            There are very, very serious gaps in your memory, with regards to the salacious accusations about Clinton and Kennedy.

            I’ll give you a 100-to-1 odds that it happened over and over.

            It CAN be proven.

            [I'd easily give you a 1,000-to-1 odds--only it would sound unrealistic, on the `surface', when you get to those numbers.]

          • HonestDebate1

            Only the wacko fringe accused Hillary of murder but the press always tries to paint the right as the wacko fringe. Kennedy had a hand in Kopechni’s death but he did not murder her. But why invoke that out of the blue? No one here is saying that. All you have to do is go back to Obama campaign (no fringe) accusing Romney of murder.

          • brettearle

            HD–

            The wacko fringe, as you term it, pretty much includes much of AM Talk Radio, throughout this country–if you are going to consider the outrageous accusations, against Kennedy and Clnton that, even to this day, sometimes are still trotted out.

            And, with regard to Obama’s ad campaign against Romney:

            While, theoretically, I do not approve of what the campaign did, it is FITTING backatya FOR WHAT THE SWIFT BOAT CAMPAIGN DID TO KERRY.

            You have NO leg to stand on.

            If The Radical Right Wing Attack Machine is going to destroy people, then the only possible effective tactic–that will succeed in return–is an effective Attack Machine from the other side.

            The Republicans asked for it.

            And they GOT it.

      • jefe68

        It’s pretty telling and pathetic.

        • brettearle

          As George Carlin might say,

          Right On, Brother

        • HonestDebate1

          You got your guy, I’ll stick with Cruz for now.

  • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

    Cruz has green egg all over his face and he’s a shameless ham.

    • Coastghost

      AND: he’s a(nother) Harvard graduate.

      • Ray in VT

        It’s funny how so many who claim to be opposed to East Coast elitism often go to the top colleges in the Northeast. I wonder if Cruz keeps his diploma on the wall, given that he says that the Harvard Law School was full of Communists committed to the violent overthrow of the United States government when he was there.

        • TFRX

          Oh, it’s better: In law school Cruz would only study with the “better Ivies” who undergradded at Harvard, Yale and Princeton.

          No elitism there.

          • Ray in VT

            Those Canadian born Senators sure are snooty.

  • SteveTheTeacher

    “The right to safety of citizens of one country can never be guaranteed by violating fundamental human rights of citizens of another country”

    “In the absence of the right to privacy, there can be no true freedom of expression and opinion, and therefore no effective democracy.”

    - Dilma Vana Rousseff, President of Brazil

    Obrigado Presidente Rousseff.

  • Coastghost

    With the fresh release of the latest IPCC report, time yet again to ask: the discourse managers running their media empires shout and shout (as they’ve been shouting and shouting for a decade and more) about the perniciousness of global warming and anthropogenic climate change year in year out and ALWAYS exempt themselves oh so conveniently for their participation in consuming and expending electricity, sending jet-setting journalists from hemisphere to hemisphere, producing gloppy schlocky entertainment shows galore, et cetera. When will broadcasters and media outlets in every domain cut back globally to — not the 24/7/365 news and entertainment cycle they tell us we need to remain well-informed, but–a 12- or 16-hour daily programming cycle that reduces the MEDIA CLIMATIC FOOTPRINT by 33% or 50%? News, entertainment, and media consumers have every right to demand that their service providers curtail operations significantly, since they generate so much heat and so little illumination.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      They will as soon as AlGore sells his private jet because there is no reason to believe him until he walks the walk.

      They know the dirty secret — the IPCC alarmism is simply propaganda. They also know alarmism and propaganda sells.

      • Coastghost

        They do seem never to resist the urge to foment “shutdown hysteria”, as we’ll hear afresh in the ten o’clock hour . . .

      • SteveTheTeacher

        Any notion of propaganda on the part of the IPCC is dwarfed by the blatant flummery of the fossil fuel backed contributors to the NIPCC report.

        • HonestDebate1

          Not really.

        • notafeminista

          Who are apparently significantly outnumbered by the flummery peddlers backed by contributors to the environmental lobby.

          http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120882720657033391.html

          • SteveTheTeacher

            Climate change deniers such as NIPCC, WSJ commentators, et. al, do offer a lot of sound and fury but no solid refutation of the scientists whose work guides the findings of the IPCC.

            At best, I have seen exclusive focus on anomalies or discordant data or a characterization of probability theory – i.e. spinning a 95% certainty into disproportionate uncertainty.

            If you have a challenge to the preponderance of the science data on global warming, please identify it.

          • Don_B1

            Since the article is behind the WSJ paywall, you will have to abstract it to get your (false) message across.

        • hennorama

          SteveTheTeacher — Thank you for introducing the word “flummery” to the forum. Well done.

  • Ray in VT

    This week is the American Library Association’s Banned Books Week. Their Office for Intellectual Freedom’s blog has been highlighting some challenges and those who have stood up to attempts to have been restricted or removed:

    http://www.oif.ala.org/oif/

    The lists of challenged items always makes for some interesting reading, as it often contains titles that are award winners, are critically acclaimed or are considered to be classics of American literature.

    • Coastghost

      Did anyone have the time or foresight to nominate the Popular Science blogsite? (or certain Disqus forums during high-traffic periods?)
      Jeff Bezos’s new playtoy WaPo ENDORSES the Popular Science comments shutdown. Jeff Bezos calls for LIMITING public expression? Oh how telling!!!

      • Ray in VT

        There a bit of a difference when comparing a commercial website attempting to reduce scientific ignorance and the ignorant attempting to remove books that they don’t like from schools and libraries.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Censorship reduces scientific ignorance?

          • Ray in VT

            It can perhaps, if one wants to call them no longer having comments censorship. Their decision seems based upon research which indicates that yes, the promotion of fallacies in the scientific arena leads to a decline in confidence in facts.

          • Coastghost

            And uncritical scientism also promotes deep skepticism regarding scientific claims. Popular science in some quarters still suffers from a century-old positivist hangover. (Where’s Feyerabend when you need him?)

          • Ray in VT

            There’s a difference between skepticism and the peddling of the blatantly false, and I guess that they don’t see the benefit it being a platform for the type of non-science nonsense that some of their posters choose to promote. I guess that they’re just not on board with the sort of post-modernist nihilism that you seem to promote. Also, progress is real.

          • Coastghost

            Ray: how can you possibly support science by asserting the “progress is real” myth? (“post-modernist nihilism” or anti-modernist skepticism?)

          • Ray in VT

            How can you possibly support many of the contentions that you make that lack a basis in reality? If you want to argue that things like the end of slavery, the spread of the right to vote and great reductions in areas like infant mortality are not progress then feel free to do so, but I just can’t imagine a world view that supports such a position.

          • Coastghost

            I’ll apologize if you insist, Ray, but I find the claim that science and applied technology are vehicles of “progress” itself scientifically untenable. Science does not possess enough data to claim (or endorse) any teleological outcome. To claim “progress” as an outcome of the scientific enterprise amounts to pseudo-scientific mythmaking.
            Yet you disparage Feyerabend? It may be too early yet to judge how accurate his assessments were/are, but certainly he’s no captive of positivist scientism.

          • Ray in VT

            Science and applied technology can be vehicles for many things, from the reduction of infant mortality to the increased efficiency of mass extermination. It is what one makes of it that determines whether or not it creates progress. It is the practicality and the use, which is what I often concern myself with, and not what I find to often be impractical and generally useless semantic or philosophical debates. f Feyerabend went down such roads, then I may put some of his ideas into the same category of things for which I have a low regard as some of the positions as his countryman Hayek. I had very little use for the theoretical classes in grad school. I’m far more concerned with where the rubber meets the road.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Facts? I dunno. Censorship doesn’t mix with science reporting. We must toe the party line?

            And who takes anonymous comments on these sites seriously anyhow?

          • Ray in VT

            I think that the science reporting can speak for itself, and anyone choosing to, say, have plate tectonics challenged in their own mind by Intelligent Shaking or something isn’t all that swift.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Daylight is usually the best disinfectant.

            Isn’t this driven because they’ve lost control of the narrative on climate change. What they don’t realize is they’ve lost control simply because the science isn’t settled and they are unwilling to admit it.

          • Ray in VT

            Sometimes, but not always. Perhaps they are merely seeking to let the narrative be driven by the science, and not by the peddlers of conspiracies and unsupported belief.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      In response the Utah school system has signed a contract to serve Barilla pasta in all school cafeterias.

      • Ray in VT

        Well, at least they can stop serving the kids nothing but Chic-Fil-A. Just as anti-gay, just healthier.

  • creaker

    Re: mall attack – it’s interesting an attack on an upscale mall gets so much attention and the daily bombings and attacks in Iraq get barely a nod and a mention.

    • MrNutso

      Unfortunately, bombings in Iraq have become the norm to the extent that they don’t generate news like an attack in Nairobi. Also, the fact that terrorists are expanding their targets makes it more newsworthy.

      • Bluejay2fly

        We caused that norm (in Iraq) by toppling their government ,so in that regard we have copious amounts of blood on our hands.

    • John_in_Amherst

      after years of conflict, war torn Iraq lacks these glitzy soft targets. coming soon to a mall near you and me?

  • StilllHere

    Don’t fear the shutdown. It’s like the sequester, only more efficient.

  • MrNutso

    My comment for Mr. Cruz and others of the Republican Party bent on stopping the ACA:

    When your party wins elections to the point where you can enact or de-enact any legislation you want, then you can f@ck the country.

  • William

    The UK Daily Mail is reporting horrific torture done by the Muslim terrorists on non-Muslims during their attack last week in Kenya. CAIR and other Muslim political groups have yet to soundly denouce this latest Muslim attack against non-Muslims. Apparently, President Obama was wrong when he said the war on terror was over.

  • MrNutso

    The bigger deal continues to be the debt ceiling. An anachronism that must go. The U.S. should not have a limit on paying prior appropriated expenses.

    • TFRX

      Oh, it’ll go, once a Republican gets into the White House.

      • Guest

        Just like it did 10 years ago – not.

        • TFRX

          (I shoulda used my satire font.)

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Tip O’Neil had no fewer than one thousand riders on the debt ceiling increases in the ’80s.

      • jefe68

        So what.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          So don’t whine when the GOP does the same thing as Tip O’Neil.

          In fact, Madison wrote that the power of the purse was the best way for congress to rein in an executive branch that is grabbing too much power — like selectively enforcing laws.

          • jefe68

            Who’s whining about the debt ceiling?
            My beef is with the GOP using the debt ceiling as a hostage to get things they want. That’s nothing like it was when Tip O’Neil was the Speaker of the House.
            You’re being disingenuous.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Sorry, O’Neil used the debt ceiling to negotiate with Reagan. Seems identical to what Boehner is attempting now with Obama.

          • jefe68

            You need to find some evidence that Tip O’Neil used threats to shut down the government. There is huge difference between horse trading, which was how it use to be done, and what we have now.

      • J__o__h__n

        Tip used it as a vehicle to pass legislation not to bring the government to a halt. His legislation made it through the Senate as he was trying to govern not posture.

  • MrNutso

    Ironic that Cruz picked Green Eggs and Ham, since the story is about someone learning to like something they thought they would not.

    • jefe68

      The funny thing is he did not get the story.
      The real irony is Cruz is not even aware that Theodor Geisel, who wrote under the pen name “Dr. Seuss,” was also a progressive and a moralist whose views suffuse his books.

      • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

        He’s a ‘butter side down’ man.

      • notafeminista

        Really. I didn’t know Cruz was unaware of the implications of what he was reading. Did someone actually confirm that?

  • Ed75

    In 2006 Senator Obama argued that the government should be shut down to stop funding of the war in Iraq.

    • northeaster17

      What a contrast. Shutting down the government over an ill concieved and falsely contrived war vs shutting down the government over a program that will expand health care that’s been previously unavailable for millions of fellow citizens.

      • Bluejay2fly

        AND much of the money wasted in the Iraq War stayed in that nations economy not ours. All the ACA money stays on US soil.

        • Bluejay2fly

          I bet whoever voted me down never got off their fat ass and served over there like I did! 1987-1988 , 2005-2006

        • fun bobby

          and will the fat bonuses the hospital and insurance company and big pharma ceos get trickle down to the little guy

          • Bluejay2fly

            I agree. I would rather have seen socialized medicine but when speaking about what is worse an Iraqi getting millions or an American CEO consider this. That American douche bag may buy a car, a boat, or put an addition on his house. Again, I making a slight distinction on what smells worse puke or crap.

          • Ray in VT

            One could even distinguish within the category of crap. Pig is way worse than cow, but maybe that’s just me.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Baby is really bad

          • Ray in VT

            I don’t know. It can be, but it’s not that bad when they’re really small. I think that the worst smell that I have encountered is when a cow does not properly clean.

          • fun bobby

            an Iraqi with a million bucks might want to move here

  • TFRX

    Americans themselves not sure what to make of it, Tom?

    Monkey-wrenching this up–actually pissy-fitting and not funding the ACA–is more unpopular than the ACA itself.

    It’s be nice to have someone from outside the Beltway to not just navel-gaze and BothSides and renormalize all the WATB crap the right is throwing here.

  • toc1234

    CBS, NYT and Jack…. good balance Tom…

    • Coastghost

      “Tilt!” says WBUR.

    • StilllHere

      Apparently Robert Reich’s limo was in a no-cell area. Our loss!

    • Ray in VT

      Yeah, where’s the Muslims Are Bad correspondent from World Nut Daily?

    • jefe68

      Turn it off if you don’t like it.

  • TFRX

    Crazy Ted Cruz went Godwin and the blowback from the middle is…where?

    Calling some folks Nazi appeasers “upset some members of his own party”, says Cordes.

    Hey, in the real world, don’t other people get to be pissed off when some hack demagogue calls them a Nazi?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    LOL!! Jack is channeling Nancy Pelosi with his astro turf nonsense.

    • StilllHere

      Why should today be any different?

  • creaker

    If Obamacare is the impending failure the Republicans say it is they could just let it be implemented, let it fail, and clean up during the 2016 elections on the promise of “fixing” it.

    I think they are much more worried about it succeeding. Romneycare is 7 years running and although not perfect (what is?) is working fine.

  • ThatDudeOnABike

    Please stop replaying those Cruz quotes without clarifying the truth of the matter. 99% of everything he said was false–bald-faced lies–trying to whip up hatred and anger. Come on!

    • Bluejay2fly

      If we had banned Texas from politics starting in the 50″s we would have lost LBJ, Bush I, Bush II, Cruz, Rick Perry I don’t see a downside to this.

  • MrNutso

    To Boehner: Pot!

  • creaker

    Boehner is funny – we’re still waiting for jobs, jobs, jobs from the House – what we got instead was 42 attempts to kill Obamacare.

    • TFRX

      Hey, don’t forget the “Fetal Liberation Brigade”. It took up much more of the House’s “effort”.

    • jefe68

      They are going for a record of 50.
      When Boehner gets booted out by the tea party extremist he’ll be on Dancing With the Stars, now that would be funny…

      • TFRX

        Let him pair up with Snooki, simply for the match in tanning spray.

  • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

    “Why is our government functioning like this – not functioning?” ~Tom Ashbrook

    Because our government (like all governments) are designed to produce laws (rather than functions).

    The rest of the world has evolved from rule-based architectures to function-based models. High-tech culture is high-functioning because it uses genuine (scientific/mathematical) functions to design systems.

    Governments are still using a 4000-year old dysfunctional model.

    In the STEM community, we’ve know for over a century now that rule-based systems are inherently chaotic (in the mathematical sense of the term) and hence woefully dysfunctional.

    • jefe68

      I would argue that one could say if we had a parliamentary system, such as Canada or Australia, we would not be having these dysfunctional government issues.

      Mind you we could have new governments more often due to votes of no confidence and coalitions falling apart.

      But it’s hard to have a consensus when you have one party that has been overtaken with anti-science/anti-intellectual zealots who don’t believe in compromise.

      • fun bobby

        and you have all these crazy republicans

        • jefe68

          Good one, but we both know I was on about the GOP.

        • StilllHere

          doubt he’ll get it

          • jefe68

            Be gone troll.

  • Michiganjf

    Among Republicans, a FOX NEWS poll showed that there was a NINE PERCENT swing when the question about who likes the ACA was merely worded differently, asking once about Obamacare, the next time calling it the Affordable Care Act.

    46% didn’t like it when called Obamacare, but that changed to just 37% when it was called the Affordable Care Act!

    Do you really think Republican intransigence has anything to do with the facts?
    The ACA was conceived by conservatives!

    They just don’t like anything enacted under Obama, as everyone knows.

    • Bluejay2fly

      They are morons. I have been a conservative since the 70′s the people the GOP has now for a base are imbeciles. I love arguing history with these “low information” republicans I almost always turn the conversation into dead silence.

      • notafeminista

        Not for the reasons you think, I assure you.

        • Bluejay2fly

          There is a big anti-intellectualism streak in this country and when you start shattering their illusionary world with information they get angry, I assure you.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Whoever voted that down probably has not read a book since being forced to in HS.

          • Ray in VT

            And this one got a down vote too. The yucks never end.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            It’s not a new phenomenon.

            They condemned Socrates to death, imprisoned Galileo, and mocked Darwin.

          • Ray in VT

            I remember one time in college having a class with this lady who was some sort of whacked out fundamentalist who argued that the gays brought down Rome and that smoking doesn’t cause cancer. Anyhoo, one day she proclaimed that she had noticed this anti-intellectual streak in America. Thought 1: You’re part of the problem, lady. Thought 2: Yeah, and Richard Hofstadter noticed that about 40 years ago.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            I think de Tocqueville got there first, but no matter….

          • Ray in VT

            Could be. It’s certainly nothing new.

          • Bluejay2fly

            I misspoke I do not think it is necessarily anti-intellectualism per se. Many people are smart and do improve their knowledge but it may be about being a better farmer or banker or perhaps a hobby. Somewhere out there they are intelligent about something HOWEVER for some reason many people believe that just through osmosis they are experts on politics, history, and sociology. The fact that people never read about these subjects yet hold very specific and strong opinions (like Ann Coulter telling a Canadian journalist about how they (Canada)were an ally fighting alongside us in Vietnam) is very illogical. I do not go to a garage and argue with a mechanic while never having learned about how a car works. It is different today people think their opinion matters even when they know nothing about the subject (and this goes beyond comment boards where I grant you people argue just for fun). Many of these people become our Sara Palins, Dianne Fiensteins, Michelle Bachmans, etc. Are they really that stupid or playing a role? Does not matter because if people are dumb enough to accept the crap that comes out of their head as the truth and their idiocy is appropriate for a national leader then holy crap!!!

          • Ray in VT

            Maybe it is distinguishing between stupidity and ignorance. I think that there are far more ignorant, or misinformed, people than there are truly stupid people, and some, perhaps most, people have detailed information in one area but are ignorant in another. Then one gets into whether or not one starts spouting off in an area whether their knowledge is not high. My brother is a good farmer, but he had no idea what the First Lady looked like. The latter just wasn’t necessary for his life and work. It was always funny when I was growing up to be a farm kid and have some kid from a white collar family try to tell me that only bulls had horns, and most of them would not budge from that position. I doubt, though, that many, if any, of them have remained resolute on that topic.

          • notafeminista

            As long as we can begin from a point that being ignorant is not equivalent to being misinformed.

          • Ray in VT

            Well, if someone’s position is based upon bad information (misinformed), then are they not ignorant of the actual state of affairs?

          • notafeminista

            Of course not. A person may be well and accurately aware of a particular circumstance and may receive misinformation about said circumstance – IE to be mis informed.
            Rather than being entirely unaware of said circumstance – IE ignorant of.

          • Ray in VT

            One can be one, the other, or a combination of the two. I do not think that they need to be mutually exclusive.

          • notafeminista

            Well then. It is really more about with whom you do or do not agree rather than any basis of knowledge in say, history (your example), no?

          • notafeminista

            Canada had troops in Vietnam in 1973. It was not her opinion, it was fact.

            http://www.cvva.ca/

          • Ray in VT

            According to Wikipedia Canada had 240 Peacekeepers in Vietnam as part of an international force attempting to enforce the Paris Peace Accords, so I think that it would be beyond a stretch for Ms. Coulter to contend that Canada was our ally fighting alongside us, if that was her position.

          • notafeminista

            Clearly neither one of you know, but instead have strongly held opinions about Ms. Coulter

          • Ray in VT

            Then please inform us. I gave you a source and challenged what was presented as her position, which you seem to defend. Perhaps your position is influenced not by history or fact, but by your opinion of Ms. Coulter.

          • jefe68

            She might be mixing up that there were Canadians who joined the US Army and fought in Vietnam. Which is ironic.

            Now if she was talking about Australia that would be a different story as they did have troops there from 1962 to 69 in an advisory roll.

          • Ray in VT

            One of my former co workers said that he got knocked out cold in a bar fight in Vietnam during the war by a giant Australian sailor. The guy did, though, haul his unconscious butt out of there so he wouldn’t get nabbed by the MPs, so my friend was rather appreciative at that point.

          • Ray in VT

            I think that a more proper analogy would be to ask if we were an ally of the Spanish Republicans during their civil war, as Americans volunteered to fight against the Nationalists, or if the efforts of the Lafayette Escadrille made us allies of the Triple Entente prior to our actual entry into the war in 1917.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Those were peace keepers to help with the Paris Peace Accord. Canada’s official position was that Vietnam was a non belligerent nation. In fact Canadians who crossed the border to serve in the US military risked punishment for treason. Coulter when she said “Canada sent troops to Vietnam” was talking about the war and combat troops not peace keepers. She is either a complete idiot or says stupid things to be famous either way she is reprehensible and emblematic of this kind of stupidity I am ranting against.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Canada sent PEACE KEEPERS not combat troops to Vietnam in order to support the Paris Peace Accord. If your implying that she was calling Canada’s peace keeping operations “support” that is a huge stretch even for a lawyer. Anne was speaking about fighting alongside the US as an ally comparing the difference between their helpful combat support in Vietnam and their unhelpful refusal to assist in the Iraq War. Anne either pretends to be stupid (she is an SU and Albany Law Graduate) or says stupid things to be famous. I remember when Gretchen Carlson (a Stanford Graduate) saying on Fox News that she had to look up the word czar because she did not know what it means. A six figure a year news reporter does not know a common political term like that? If they are truly that dumb these “great” universities need to revoke some degrees and if they are lying then your an idiot for believing the crap that comes out of their mouths,

          • notafeminista

            The completely anecdotal unprovable stories that manage to insult people are really the best. Thanks for that.

          • Ray in VT

            You’re welcome. What’s the problem? Does it hit too close to home with you or people that you know or like? Whatever it’s value, It’s still better than the idiocy that you were likely to contribute.

          • notafeminista

            You don’t claim to know its value, yet you know it will be better than anything I might have said. ….and there it is.

          • Ray in VT

            Well, considering that I think that I have a pretty good handle on the general lack of value that your comments have, then even if my comment is worth zero, then it’s still worth more than most of your comments.

          • notafeminista

            Imagine my surprise.

          • notafeminista

            No, you need there to be a big anti-intellectualism streak in this country. Slightly different.

      • John_in_Amherst

        I have sympathy for you, even though I am unabashedly liberal. Democracy needs a spirited exchange of ideas to function well, and what we have is name-calling and a popularity contest between egomaniacal dimwits, covered by media of the lowest common denominator that caters to a narcotized audience

  • toc1234

    Sanger is trying to explain the current level of the stock market? good lord..

    • StilllHere

      I come to On Point for market analysis! Just about to hit the sell button …. now.

      • jefe68

        Nah, you come here to be a troll.

  • StilllHere

    We’ve tried your tired big government ways. Time for something completely different!

    • jefe68

      Like what exactly?
      You small government types are fooling yourselves if you think multinational corporations can run the US.

    • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

      Solving systemic problems requires systems thinking.

      • Coastghost

        Cue the “Twilight Zone” theme . . .

  • creaker

    No one has ever brought up cutting the debt – they are just arguing over how much more debt to incur.

  • PaulfromHydeParkMA

    The entire issue of defunding the ACA and threatening to shut down the Gov’t is a blessing in disguise for we democrats. If the Gargantuan Obstructionist Pahty is stupid enough to do either, never mind both of these things, ignoring that they can’f override the President’s guaranteed veto if they could pass the defunding. We Dems are salivating at the infantile approach (the GOP has appropriated “Principles” and redefined it as “sand box fight”) that the GOP has taken as they stamp their feet, suck their thumbs and get threatened with Time Out by Harry Reid and other Dems with the patience of Job. It’s ridiculous!!! The public WILL Eliminate the Repubs in the 2014 elections b/c the GOP has taken this too far.

  • TFRX

    You know who’s downplaying default?

    Many of the yakking yucksters on Fox News.

    I guess they all have their survival shelters, Glenn Beck-approved freeze-dried food, and jet packs.

    Those of us in the real world think differently, though.

    • fun bobby

      how will you survive without government largesse or freeze dried snacks?
      (thanks for reminding me glenn beck is on

      • TFRX

        Go away, dipsht.

        • fun bobby

          classy

          • jefe68

            Well, at least he’s honest.
            The regressive right wing troll brigade is out in force today.

          • StilllHere

            I think you touched a nerve …

          • TFRX

            Try not being your usual troll self, and maybe someone will want to play with you at recess.

          • StilllHere

            You’re a joke.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            It’s called Narcissistic Wounding.

          • StilllHere

            Didn’t take much for him to go all hostile.

          • TFRX

            I’m just calling a troll a troll.

            And you’re pretty thin-skinned for a RW troll. You need to spend some time in the mainstream site cesspits with your fellow hacks.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            Popular Science discontinued allowing reader comments on their main web site because it was too much trouble to police the trolls.

          • jefe68

            That’s pathetic. Trolls infecting Popular Science. Even more pathetic, one of troll here thinks my comment is deserving a down arrow.
            What a clown.

          • TFRX

            Hey, some people just don’t like science.

            In a larger sense, PS is a mainstream site turned into a cesspit of anti-factuality. It’s the same reason many mainstream news sites’ comment sections are not worth the bother.

            To vary the old punchline, “I’m not going down there for a mere quarter”.

          • jefe68

            I never read the comment section of PS.
            I never knew that was going on.

            Bill Maher does a funny bit on Twitter trolls. Apparently someone told the Cheesecake Factory to f off. Pathetic.

          • TFRX

            Well, it’s a long step from the old days when Reader Letters got printed alongside the Freddie Fumbles* cartoon about how to not “Dagwood up” some easy home repair. (Is that the right mag I’m remembering?)

            It’s been repeated in many places, and we’re getting to a next generation. The first wave were ordinary newspapers who had to have something, and it was often wretched. Topix was a “comment server” which more than a few papers used, and dropped, because they simply couldn’t stomach the low signal to noise ratio.

          • Bluejay2fly

            That bit was awesome!

          • Ray in VT

            I sometimes listen to the SVP and Russillo show on ESPN Radio, and they sometimes talk about how Van Pelt gets in, and often enjoys, fighting with people on Twitter. My wife showed me a funny exchange from Eugene Merman’s Twitter feed the other day where someone was just being a jerk. It was pretty funny.

          • TFRX

            Eugene Mirman?
            He is funny in general, and especially on Bob’s Burgers.

          • Ray in VT

            My wife and I love Bob’s Burgers. We were pretty bummed out when it almost got cancelled after season one. It’s just weird and awesome. Did you see the Bob’s Burgers bit on Archer?

          • TFRX

            But of course!

            And (I may be repeating myself) Gene Mirman as Carol Tunt’s brother, and Kristen Schaal as Mirman’s girlfriend, in the season-ender.

            It was weird to hear them voiceover as a couple when I’m so used to hearing them as brother and sister.

          • Ray in VT

            I haven’t seen much Archer, but it looks both funny and messed up. My wife just had me watch an episode of The League. Have you seen that show?

          • TFRX

            It has some people in it I enjoy, but it isn’t quite my taste.

          • Ray in VT

            Once again I find it funny that your comment, as well as my preceding one, got down votes. I’ve seen a bit of The League, but my wife wanted me to watch the Rafi/Dirty Randy episode, and it was terrible in a funny way. At least it somewhat exposes my wife to sports, which she generally despises.

          • StilllHere

            Sounds like a loss for free speech.

          • jefe68

            No, it’s called dealing with children who can’t play in the sand box without the adults having to break up the fights.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            I dunno that we can break up the fights so much as study them as a cultural phenomenon that can be modeled scientifically.

          • jefe68

            It’s pretty simple. People do it because they are safe in the knowledge that they wont get punched in the nose.

          • StilllHere

            That sounds worthwhile, so it’s a big loss for PS all around.

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            It’s long been a subject of research in the annals of cultural anthropology.

          • StilllHere

            I would think PS would enjoy all the eye-balls, but maybe they thought it was distracting people from their agenda.

          • jefe68

            Their agenda… is science.

          • TFRX

            Dude, you were born below my level.

          • pete18

            No, his nerve is always touched.

          • TFRX

            Try not being a troll, and maybe you can sit at the grownup’s table.

      • StilllHere

        Good one!

  • creaker

    It’s amazing how much noise the House has generated given they’ve only had something like 9 working days in the past 2 months. If you’re going to work for the American people, the first thing you have to do is actually work.

    • homebuilding

      @creaker….

      The massive over-representation of the GOPster House (when compared with actual work or accomplishment) is only possible because the Eunuch Press never leaves the DC/NY corridor…

      and coming up with some new questions or challenges for the public square would mean that they’d miss some “I’m really important” dinners and invitations.

  • fun bobby

    with all the talk of a govt shutdown and these constant revelations about the evils the NSA is doing why cant we agree to shut down the NSA? that has to save a few bucks. how much is the secret budget anyways?

    • MrNutso

      It’s a secret. In truth, my guess is there’s no actual section or line item for the NSA. They probably get their money from other agencies, so you have shut down the entire government to stop the spying. However, in spite of a government shutdown, there are some programs that are deemed critical (or something like that) that still get funded. Bet I can think of one.

      • fun bobby

        plus there is all the heroin and cocaine revenue from the CIA that never gets figured into the budget I am sure

        • Karl Prahl

          Gary Webb put a lot of evidence together supporting this.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

          He has a book. There are documentaries covering it too, such as the Last White Hope.
          Then we look at opium manufacturing in Afghanistan under the Taliban (lowest in recorded history), and the U.S. occupied forces (highest in recorded history) and we have to wonder if they are up to it again.

          • fun bobby

            include the fact that Iran now has a huge heroin problem. its beyond dispute that the CIA has sold drugs to the American people yet most people think its a whacky conspiracy theory . God help us

          • fun bobby

            to prove my point I have got a downvote. The cia sold drugs to Americans. the cia sold drugs to Americans. its an indisputable fact. the only question is when or if they have stopped

          • Karl Prahl

            Anyone who cringes at “conspiracy theory” has never spent time in a U.S. court. Most crimes rely on conspiracy. People planning and colluding to accomplish tasks. Premeditated murder is a conspiracy to murder.
            But we’ve been programed to reject anything that someone labels “conspiracy theory” automatically. It’s a way to escape critical thinking. “Oh that’s some crazy conspiracy theory. I don’t have to look at the evidence.”
            The -fact- ranking members of the administration conceded collaboration during Iran-Contra in Congressional hearings is soon forgotten. So much is soon forgotten, right back down the rabbit hole.

    • Karl Prahl

      There is a film on Netflix instant play, documentary called “Secrecy” that deals with the “Reynolds” case that is the modern foundation of the States Secret Privilage.
      Needless to say, use of States Secret is full of crap.

    • homebuilding

      and cutting the Pentagon by about 3/4 would be a good start, too.

      • fun bobby

        imagine if you spent half your household budget on weapons or “security”. its only a dream for married guys but its bad policy for a nation

  • Coastghost

    The question NOW is not whether ACA exchanges are up and running on 1 Oct 2013: the question is, will they be up and running on 1 Jan 2014?

  • bethrjacobs

    the problems can not be ironed out 8% of a $14k income is not available for crappy insurance you can’t live on $14k let alone put 8% of it aside to pay extortion

    • creaker

      someone making $14k is going to be covered by Medicaid in states that expanded their program or about $45/month in states that haven’t

      • adks12020

        ^Exactly right.

  • Karl Prahl

    Republicans in power. Not much change.

    Democrats in power. Not much change.

    Republicrats a false dichotomy? A way to distract and entertain, keep our attention away from real change, accepting the message of change instead of demanding the results.

    Why does Iran get so much of our attention and Israel so many passes? Didn’t Israel attack our navy? Don’t they have the bomb? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

    • Bluejay2fly

      It’s a slight of hand. Let half the poor kill the other half while we take all of the money. We need a reboot of our entire way of thinking. An American Revolution.

  • hennorama

    From the Department of Good News:

    Flash Mobs Invade Parks – With Books!
    (unfortunately, this was NOT in the US. Blame Canada, again.)

    FTA:

    “…with funds from The Vancouver Sun’s Raise-a-Reader program, a series of summer reading flash mobs was launched that had all the pizzazz of the real thing.

    “Dawn Livera, a literacy outreach coordinator with Decoda Literacy Solutions, an agency that distributes Raise-a-Reader funds, came up with the idea of using a pop-culture phenomenon to encourage reading.”

    See:
    http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Raise+Reader+Flash+mobs+invade+parks+with+books/8930303/story.html
    ======
    September 26, 2013 marked the 30th anniversary of the world NOT having a worldwide nuclear war, due to the smart inaction of Soviet military officer Stanislav Petrov.

    FTA:

    “A warning light flashed up, screaming red letters on a white background – ‘LAUNCH. LAUNCH’. Deafening sirens wailed. The computer was telling him that the U.S. had just gone to war.

    “Instead of calling an alert that within minutes would have had Soviet missiles launched in a retaliatory strike, Petrov decided to wait.

    “The warning light flashed again – a second missile was, apparently, in the air. And then a third. Now the computer had stepped up the warning: ‘Missile attack imminent!’

    “But this did not make sense. The computer had supposedly detected three, no, now it was four, and then five rockets, but the numbers were still peculiarly small. It was a basic tenet of Cold War strategy that, if one side ever did make a preemptive strike, it would do so with a mass launch, an overwhelming force, not this dribble.

    “Petrov stuck to his common-sense reasoning. This had to be a mistake.

    “The alert on September 26th, 1983 had been a false one. Later, it was discovered that what the satellite’s sensors had picked up and interpreted as missiles in flight was nothing more than high-altitude clouds.

    “Petrov’s cool head had saved the world.”

    See:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-505009/September-26th-1983-The-day-world-died.html
    http://rt.com/news/soviet-nuclear-petrov-stanislav-221/

    ======
    Not from this week, but good news for a place unfortunately quite prominent in this week’s news:

    Kenya Aquifers Discovered In Dry Turkana Region

    FTA:

    “A huge water source has been discovered in the arid Turkana region of northern Kenya which could supply the country for 70 years, the government says.

    “The discovery of two aquifers brings hope to the drought-hit region, tweeted Environment Minister Judi Wakhungu.

    “They were found in the Turkana Basin and Lotikipi Basin using satellites and radar.”

    See:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24049800

    Original Source:

    http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/

    • fun bobby

      how aboot that eh?

      • hennorama

        To Boo At A Taboo Boa Boot is truly Canuckian, non monsieur? (Most prefer Canadian-made footwear for their outdoor activities.)

    • brettearle

      But will it include Henry Miller?

      • hennorama

        brettearle – TYFYR.

        It seems unlikely, given the name of the Sun’s program – “Raise-a-Reader.”

        However, they may include books with stories about the tropics and the zodiac.

        • brettearle

          Ha Ha

          I owe you so many responses from past programs and past quips….

          • hennorama

            brettearle –

            the past be past and ye debt-free
            il n’ya pas de prix aujourd’hui

            plans be laid and plans be lift
            wildly life tis truly gift

  • toc1234

    Easy Tom, I know its hard for you to hear that the public as a whole isn’t so in the tank for Obama as you are. but don’t worry, BO knows you’re his biggest fanboy…

    • StilllHere

      So true.

    • fun bobby

      I saw a guy unironically selling obama t shirts the other day so maybe he is #2

  • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

    What a limp show. Can’t wait for Mike Nichols.

    • MrNutso

      Sometimes the week doesn’t need to be reviewed.

      • Karl Prahl

        Glad we got an update on the NSA debacle. We still spying on Senators?

        • fun bobby

          actually I might support spying on them. we could call it transparancy

          • Karl Prahl

            It’s not spying then. It’s just public as it should be.
            It comes back to the whole idea of Secrecy in our government. JFK called the very idea of secrecy repugnant and I have to agree. The most glaring examples of the audacity our governments project is when a crime is committed and the evidence is classified: Syrian wmd usage. Iraqi wmd possession. 9/11. That tippity-top of the iceberg is enough and it just goes on and on and on.
            You want us to believe those people are murderers and want us to kill them for you but you don’t trust us enough to show us the evidence? It’s total bunk.
            “We can’t share it because it will put investigations and agents at risk.” If being honest and transparent in our society would put certain actions at risk, MAYBE WE SHOULDN’T BE COMMITTING THOSE ACTIONS.

          • fun bobby

            I have been saying similar things for a while. seems to fall on deaf ears. besides preventing Geraldo reporting actual troop positions live we should have no secrets in a govt of by and for the people

  • creaker

    There is a way out of Obamacare – put single payer back on the table.

    • toc1234

      Reid and Pelosi didn’t/don’t have the guts (or Dem votes)…

      • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

        complete sentences, random words……

  • toc1234

    and progressive media members like Nancy…

    • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

      I see what you mean.

  • homebuilding

    Tom, please !

    The cost of medical care/the cost of health insurance; the cost of work comp–THE INFLATIONARY COST INCREASE OF ANYTHING MEDICAL has far exceeded the cost of any other service or commodity, since Nixon !

    The penetration of percentage of workers with employer provided health insurance peaked late in the Carter administration–and it’s dropped steadily ever since.

    The number of workers NOT getting a health insurance benefit hit new lows in the DubYuh administration.

    Now, we hear the drum roll of ‘more privatization’ as the cure for our ‘system’ that costs twice as much as anywhere else in the world–and gives us far less than the best life outcomes and infant health

    Hey, Texas leads with a FULL QUARTER of it’s citizens without any form of health insurance–many red states are right up there. Romney’s Massachussets, rather unexpectedly, represents the states with the most citizens with health coverage.

    I guess it was a bridge too far for Cruz to blame Obama for this…

    • Karl Prahl

      I’d like to see a truly independent third party study on how much of each dollar spent on health care goes into administration, bureaucracy, unnecessary care (read: MRA’s for a headache because they’ve got the machine), and the countless other sieves of inefficiency.
      Stop feeding people crap and telling them it’s healthy. Stop drugging every peculiar or less than ideal.
      Stop monetizing healthcare with insurance, HMO’s and big business interests.
      This can and may help SOME people, but the fact we are being forced to do it proves it’s not good for everyone. That means there are better solutions than a forced tax and forcing more people to buy an intangible product from “qualified” offering services. No recipe for nepotism or monopolistic capitalism there.

      • jefe68

        A lot of the costs are due to our fee for service health care system that is also infused with a lot of for profit companies. We pay more for drugs than any other industrial nation. We spend more than twice than all the other industrial nations on health care per person and our results are pretty poor.

        It’s a broken system, but doing nothing is not an option anymore. The entire health care system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

        • Karl Prahl

          We could start by retracting corporate charters and transferring intellectual property owned by said non-breathing-entities to the public domain so that people could get what they need by allowing the market to operate without government constriction.
          Or just stop convincing people that the only solution for their problem is drugs and surgery. For some people it is the only solution, but certainly not for everyone.
          Retracting corporate charters seems a good start though. Many have outlived their usefulness

          • jefe68

            So you would trust corporations who’s only mandate is to their stockholders?

          • Karl Prahl

            I just stated that their charters, in many cases, should be retracted because they have outlived their usefulness. To expound, they no longer serve the public good so they should cease to exist.
            So, no. I don’t trust a corporation who is legally obligated to act like a psychopath and ignore human needs if alternatives will maximize profits. They do not need to exist and their charters can be revoked.

          • jefe68

            So single payer then.

          • Karl Prahl

            If you only see choice A: Single payer, and choice B: Public Corporations, then I am very sorry for you.
            Here is an option C to start the process of problem solving: private business.

          • jefe68

            Your kidding. Choice C is private businesses? You mean the ones like Costco who does right by their employees and Walmart who does the least they can to maximize profits?

            Do you mean health insurance businesses that until the ACA became law could deny coverage for a pre-existing condition as simple as an acne condition or asthma?

          • Karl Prahl

            You just mentioned two businesses that are public corporations and an industry that is dominated (entirely?) by public corporations.
            You remove public corporations and private business becomes much more limited in scope and less capable of malfeasance because of said limited scope.

          • jefe68

            That’s an interesting point. but a lot of private corporations become public to raise funds as they grow. Also what’s to prevent a private corporation from only wanting to maximize profits and in doing so lessen the level of care?

          • Karl Prahl

            The thing preventing a private corporation from abusing the situation in some way is the idea of free-trade. If they are seen to abuse their position, why would anyone do business with them? If you also separate the State’s power to influence trade, buying that influence is off the table.
            If people insist on doing business with someone not acting in their benefit, well, what can be said? We are all free. Free to be responsible.

          • jefe68

            Well the answer is Verizon, Comcast, and in health care if you live in an area dominated by one mega hospital group, your out of luck.

            In theory what you are saying seems to make a lot of sense, however in practice I’m not seeing any evidence that it works.
            Take a look at the large corporations that are in charge of cable, cell and internet usage. Not much choice in some areas and in others there is more. The same is true of banking.

          • Karl Prahl

            Again, public corporations propped up by government regulations preventing competition. Big business+government=bad
            I understand hesitation, especially when no one answer will answer the problem of health care for all localities. But to discount private business because of Kaiser Permanente or Bayer (as examples) is to ignore the thousands of examples of private practitioners working across the united states. Apply that to cellphones (who the government allows to build towers and broadcast over frequencies usually based off nepotism) and banks (who need government issued charters to operate, again, usually issued based off nepotism).
            The current issue with those practitioners is accessibility, whether through the financial burden or simple availability. These are issues, but not one solved by government. In fact I would claim that these problems are because of government interference.

          • jefe68

            That’s a fantasy world based on an ideal that has never existed.

          • Karl Prahl

            You’re free to believe that, but the evidence doesn’t support that (cod industry in newfoundland, cottage industries the world over, many small businesses).
            The fantasy world is believing a single payer would work inside an industry dominated by corporations. You get rid of the corporations first, then we can discuss this single-payer theory. Or better yet, YOU pay for it.
            And to take it one step further, what do you propose if someone doesn’t support this system and doesn’t pay? Are you consenting to physical force be used to compel them ala IRS and police?

          • Karl Prahl

            As an aside, the Gate’s foundation filled to the brim with billionaire money could completely fund a single-payer system for a couple years. That’s mainly Gates and Buffett w/ a dash of Soros in the mix.
            Instead they get to “donate” their fortunes to themselves tax free and push family planning and birth control in Africa instead of doing what the rest of us do and pay our taxes which would allow public debate to dictate where those funds were spent.
            You want this socialist, single-payer dream, fix the coercion and nepotism rank in Washington first. That’s not sourdough you’re getting baking a system with that rot.

          • jefe68

            So all the different health care systems from Taiwan to Denmark on through to Canada are not working by your definition.

            Are you consenting to physical force be used to compel them ala IRS and police? That’s called tax evasion.

            The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States…

            Article I, Section. 8 of the US Constitution.

            I have an idea, try growing up and acting like an adult.

          • Karl Prahl

            Are you saying everyone in Taiwan and Denmark on through to Canada are happy with their health care, healthy and completely taken care of, or are their systems also full of problems and imperfect?
            I don’t remember voting on that part of the Constitution. I also don’t see my name on it so I don’t seem to be bound by it, or are you saying that by the very act of being born between the Atlantic and Pacific between certain lines of longitude makes me a slave to a piece of paper? As for taxes, I suggest you look into form 532 and withdrawing from social security. It’s a hell of a start.
            I don’t believe anyone should feel obliged by the barrel of a gun and that is what this ACA/Obamacare tax is. Make it voluntary if you think it’s so great. People will sign up IF IT IS BETTER. Convince us it is better. If your system requires that everyone participate it will fail because not everyone will participate. If you truly believe we are “all in this together” and we need to pool resources to collectively lift everyone, start with the 1% and work down, not the 99% working up. Get your program fat from up top and fund these things. As it stands, it’s a fleecing of the poor and middle class.
            Eat the rich if you have to cannibalize.

          • Karl Prahl

            “I have an idea, try growing up and acting like an adult.”
            You must be the sort who tells children “Because I say so.”
            I’d suggest you try and understand what it is you are suggesting and stop trying to impose your will on others. If your way is better than people will naturally follow it. Do a couple google searches for income tax compliance and IRS agent whistleblowers. After that “define” money and explain why we cannot print ourselves out of this problem, but we can print Wall Street out of their problem at the tune of 85 billion a month. Pure Hegelian and the public is falling for it.

          • Karl Prahl

            Absolutely, and if a public charter is issued, the corporation should convince the local population of which they are a member (i.e. no incorporating in Delaware to do business in Arizona) that the public raising of funds is necessary for some greater good and not simply for personal gain.
            Once said goal is completed (research on a new drug, purchasing of new equipment, expansion etcetera) the public side of the corporation needs to cease. They must pay back their stock because the goal is accomplished.
            It’s not perfect and no one answer will be right for every question, but the idea of giving the U.S. Government who we ALL know are in bed with Wall-street and big business total control of our health care, our personal bodies. It just seems insane.

      • MsAbila

        People in a decent society care for their sick individuals! The US should be no exception. We need a SINGLE PAYER system with cost limits.

        • Karl Prahl

          The first line of your comment is spot on. People do care for their sick individuals. We should take care of our own and hold up those that fall and need a hand. Absolutely.
          Single payer does not solve that. It creates more people relying on someone else to take care of them. It COULD work great, it COULD be fantastic, but that’s glass bottle vacuum thinking in my humble opinion. You remove the influences of Big medicine by State regulations ensuring their survival and people will take responsibility. Organize hospitals. Pay doctors and take care of their health professionals.
          But you might actually have to get to know your neighbors. You might have to get involved in local politics and take responsibility for the forces influencing your life. No good doctors? Recruit some or train some. Need a particular machine? Bake sell and community organizing.
          Or we can just empower Government to do it for us and have FAITH that they will succeed and take care of us no matter what.

        • HonestDebate1

          We are the single payer. That just sounds funny somehow.

          The committee who determines “cost limits” = Death panel.

          So there’s that.

          • StilllHere

            Exactly. Single payer for these guys means they don’t have to pay, cuz they don’t get it.
            And eventually as the costs get out of control and more and more is focused on administering as opposed to care, death panels will be seen as a necessary evil, though at that point there might be an app for that.

      • HonestDebate1

        It may be possible to estimate the cost per dollar for administration and bureaucracy once they’re defined but I don’t think it’s possible to calculate the cost for unnecessary care even if we could actually precisely define “unnecessary”. That’s fertile ground for ambulance chasers with radar detectors. Tort reform needs to be in there somewhere.

        • Karl Prahl

          Or simply remove centralized dispersal of funds so localities can identify their own needs and unnecessary expenses. Stop having Washington dictate what is necessary for good health and allow localities and individuals to determine that themselves. In other words, don’t give Washington your money and don’t let them decide for you.
          Treat everyone like children and they’ll always look to daddy to make the problems go away.

    • hennorama

      homebuilding – all good points.

      Consider also that there can be a perverse disincentive for medical care cost containment for health insurers if they are required, in effect, to spend 80% of the premiums they charge on medical care for their clients. Insurers call medical costs “losses,” and use the term “medical loss ratio” (MLR) when they talk about the percent of premiums spent on health care.

      Here’s what I mean – let’s says an insurer charges its clients a total of $100 million in premiums. If their MLR is 80% minimum, this means they get to keep a maximum of $20 million for administrative expenses and profit.

      Let’s say their clients’ medical care costs are $77 million. This is an MLR of 77% and means that the insurer would need to refund $3 million to its clients. Trust me, this is the LAST thing insurers want to do.

      The insurer may be tempted to overpay medical claims by $3 million rather than give it back to clients.

      Why? For a couple of reasons:

      1. Regulators would look a bit harder at any proposed premium increases, since the company now has a history of a 77% MLR.

      2. The $77 mil spent on medical care would justify premiums of only $96.25 million, leaving a max of $19.25 million for admin. and profit. If the insurer instead paid out $80 million (an MLR of 80%) they would be allowed $20 million for administrative expenses and profit, and the vast majority of the $750,000 difference would go profits.

      According to TIME, prior to the passage of the ACA, a CBO report “…said insurers might react to new thresholds by “cutting back on efforts to restrain benefit costs through care management.” Translation: Anything that doesn’t count as “medical costs” may be on the chopping block, including exorbitant executive salaries but also programs to keep patients healthy. There is also a fear among health policy experts that some insurers could raise premiums in reaction — higher premiums means more money spent on health care, but also more left over for profits. Another unintentional consequence might be insurers overpaying for some health services to keep their MLR averages high.”

      This will be something to watch as the PPACA is fully implemented.

      Sources:
      http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1949390,00.html
      http://www.americanbar.org/newsletter/publications/aba_health_esource_home/Stein.html#_ftn21

    • William

      There are jobs that offer medical insurance but too many people are not qualified to obtain those jobs.

      • homebuilding

        Yes, there are…..BUT

        –the percentage of positions that provide health insurance has been going down for over three decades;

        –the cost to employers has been, concurrently, exploding (long before Obama was President);

        –a far greater proportion of lower skilled/lower educated persons had health insurance in the 1980s and 90s;

        –without a change in pre-Obama insurance/health care costs, ever fewer persons would have access to basic medical care (a fact never mentioned in the GOPster press)

        Questions: Do you obtain personal satisfaction in pointing out the inadequacies of your fellow citizens? Enjoy your superiority much?

  • David

    When does the stream usually become available? Thanks On Point for being so great.

  • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

    Bitch bitch bitch Cruz bitch bitch Green Eggs and troll bitch bitch… obama care bitch, etc.

    • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

      cont… bitch bitch bitch vote down that’l show them bitch……..

  • hennorama

    Anita Paul — Senator Rafael Edward Cruz is a master debater, as evidenced by his achievements as a Princeton undergrad and while studying at Harvard.

    Sen. Cruz is a highly skilled attorney making an argument, which of course does not require him to “believe anything he says.”

    Sources:
    http://debate.princeton.edu/results/hall-of-fame/
    http://articles.philly.com/1995-01-10/news/25715479_1_death-penalty-princeton-university-war-criminals

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    The IPCC reported today that they are 95% certain that human factors caused global temperatures not to warm over the last 15 years.

    Whew!!! That was close.

    • StilllHere

      That warms my heart.

    • HonestDebate1

      I had the same reaction but couldn’t find the cogent sentence. Well put… both of’m.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    The America’s cup — a historic comeback for the American’s.

    One problem. Only one of the sailors on the American team is American. Pretty funny.

    “The Lone American on Oracle Team USA”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2013/09/25/the-lone-american-on-oracle-team-usa/?mod=trending_now_1

    • Ray in VT

      Sort of like how the New Zealand boat is covered by Emirates advertising?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Yeah, that’s funny too.

        Apparently the Oracle boat was also built in NZ. But it is owned by American billionaire – Larry Ellison.

        Hey, isn’t NZ where John Kerry had his yacht built? The one he tried to evade paying MA sales tax on.

        • Ray in VT

          Is that the one that he bought with income from a company that he hadn’t worked for for years on profits from outsourcing a bunch of jobs to China?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            No it was gigolo ketchup money.

            Ohhhhh! You’re talking about Ellison……

          • Ray in VT

            Hey, he just made his money the old-fashioned way, by marrying it. It worked well for George Washington among others.

            I was talking about Mitt, of course. I wonder if Kerry has a car elevator.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Oh, I didn’t know ole Mitt had a yacht. I did see him on a jet ski in NH.

            Kerry and Ellison have the real money — Mitt is a pauper compared to them.

          • Ray in VT

            I would be surprised if he didn’t have one, but maybe he went for another house instead. Who knows.

          • TFRX

            I think Mitt had a yacht elevator to keep them all stored.

      • TFRX

        So linked to a football team Emirates is, I thought Arsenal was sponsoring the NZ yacht.

    • hennorama

      WftC — this is another example of what’s right about America. We bring in ideas and skills from around the globe to improve our results.

      According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS),

      “The share of the U.S. civilian labor force that was foreign born was 16.1 percent in 2012; it was 15.9 percent in 2011.”

      See:
      http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

      Now if we could only improve our immigration system …

  • notafeminista
    • Ray in VT

      If he believes that solar activity is more to blame for observed global warming, then I wonder what he knows that NASA and the Royal Society don’t.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Does NASA and the Royal Society know what caused the MWP? Knight farts perhaps? And with 95% certainty?

        • Ray in VT

          They probably have their positions, but knight farts is probably unlikely, although witch burnings may have contributed.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Witch burnings? Could be. However I think the Inquisition was just getting started at the tail end of the MWP.

          • Ray in VT

            The big witch scare was the 16th and 17th centuries, so maybe it helped prevent an ice age. Maybe it was the Vikings. They burned enough stuff during that early Medieval period.

          • TFRX

            Knight farts?

            I’d imagine, trapped in those armor suits, it’s sorta a “act locally” kind of problem. Of course, given hygeine standards of the day, one might not be able to have smelt it.

  • Craig Miller

    At about 16:30ish Nancy Cordes says (I’m paraphrasing) “The public does not support the idea of tying Republican policies like Keystone, offshore drilling, and lax regulations to the debt ceiling”

    Except that they do:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-26/americans-reject-by-61-obama-demand-for-clean-debt-vote.html

    She also says these Republican policy demands have nothing to do with the debt. Nothing.

    Really? Isn’t the argument (right or wrong) that these policies increase economic growth? And is not economic growth tied, a teeny bit, to debt?

    That no one on the show bothered to correct this shows either worrisome ignorance, blatant misdirection, or irresponsible group think.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Jack was biting his tongue waiting to get in to correct her. I could just tell.

    • jimino

      And the wrong-wingers who comment again display their lack of knowledge by equating the debt limit to the federal deficit. By all means, we should do exactly what they propose (sarc).

    • StilllHere

      Democrats don’t do math.

      • J__o__h__n

        Republicans don’t do math, science, English and history.

        • jefe68

          Or common sense for that matter.

    • Karl Prahl

      Doesn’t the money supply equal our national debt? Would we have any money in circulation at all if Americans and the U.S. government paid off their debt?
      Isn’t the money supply almost exactly equal to the national debt? Why is that?
      Could there possibly be a problem in the fiat, fractional reserve system we have that is run and managed by private entities?
      Bill Stills “Moneymasters” and “secret of oz” are both good documentaries covering money basics and available for free on youtube. The Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago also released a document “Modern Money Mechanics” explaining how central and charter banks create money out of thin air on demand, adding to the debt and money supply.

  • marygrav

    Ted Cruz, Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin have one thing in common: they were foreigners who took over Western Empires with smooth talk and promises.

    the main weakness in today’s show was that Tom did not ask David Sanger about cyber warfare and why Iran does not need a bomb. Who needs bombs when all a nation needs are computers and access to the Internet. This is how Israel-US brought Iran to the table.

    We can talk all we want to about plots and plans, but the only country I don’t trust is the United States. As long as the Lobby can exercise so much power over Congress and the T-Party is determined to destroy the US Government itself, I have no faith in peace in my lifetime or anybody’s. Because a colonizer is a colonizer.

    • brettearle

      I have no use for Ted Cruz, whatsoever. He’s nearly a disgrace.

      But I also have VERY little use for anyone, on this Forum, who disempowers the Forum, by comparing an American politician to any genocidal Fascist.

      • fun bobby

        yeah cruz is not genocidal

      • Karl Prahl

        What if those politicians were part of a Fascist Plot to overthrow the U.S. government ala Prescott Bush, JP Morgan and friends in the 1933 Business Plot to overthrow FDR and put a fascist government in it’s place?
        99% of the time a Politian summons the specter of Nazi Germany it is pure demagoguery and fear mongering. To believe anyone because the other guy is a “Nazi” is also mental tee-ball. But simply because it’s a poor analogy DOES NOT MEAN U.S. politicians always have the public’s interest in mind.
        Major General Smedley Butler is a true American Hero, one of if not the most decorated combat soldier in U.S. history, and he was not afraid to call American politicians genocidal Fascists because sometimes, sometimes, they are. Check out the pamphlet “War is a Racket” by the Major General and see if that doesn’t change your mind about these “leaders” we have.

        • brettearle

          We make those assertions when we have proof.

          We don’t make them because we wish to join the current cesspool of propaganda.

          You’re missing the point.

          And by doing so, you are contributing to the problem.

          • Karl Prahl

            I believe you are missing the point.
            Cruz is neither here nor there. He doesn’t matter. The point -IS- U.S. politicians and businessmen have supported Nazi ideas (Read: Prescott Bush, Henry Ford etc), have harbored Nazi officers (operation Paperclip, SS officer Wermher Von Braun etc) and to assume that all Fascist/Nazi sympathizers in Washington are gone because you don’t see swastikas on their arms is, well, foolish.
            Stop considering a Nazi to be simply a jew/gay/minority hating mass murderer and to recognize Nazi’s as NATIONAL (read: patriotic) SOCIALISTS (read: Fabians). Or if you adhere to the Fascist descriptor for Nazi’s consider Mussolini’s definition (a marriage between corporations and the state). A person does not have to identify with a group or a cause to push their agenda.
            A duck is a duck regardless of what name you give it.
            As you consider the above also consider this question: Is it worse to put a bullet in someone’s head or to gas them dead or to refuse them life-saving food and treatment and have them die slowly? Are the Nazi’s worse for killing off millions of “undesirables” directly, or U.S. business for sitting on their hands and not supplying the hundreds of million dying with food and medicine “because it’s not profitable”?
            It’s in our means. Is refusal to do it any better? Is a death one way really better than death another? Fascists are fascists.

          • brettearle

            Your beliefs, your thoughts, and your convictions are especially woeful and disturbing because you, yourself, see them as intelligence, insightful, and profound.

            The worst part about your comments is that because you’re so bright, you think you must be on the right side of the issue.

            You aren’t.

            I wasn’t talking about history.

            I wasn’t talking about the future.

            I was talking ONLY about some pathetic politician by the name of CRUZ.

            Nothing more and nothing else.

            If you would like to ramp it all up–to the point where you believe that the next Enemy and the next subversive Bogeyman is hiding in your attic, cellar, or closet, then go ahead and wallow in your distortions.

            But when you do it, here, you pollute the Forum with incite not insight.

            Your exaggerations become an amateurish and chaotic form of McCarthyism, unconnected to the reality of Senator Cruz’s embarrassment, within the well of the Senate.

            Go back to your placards and protest at some rotary circle…..

            Your comments are an embarrassment.

          • Karl Prahl

            I have no use for Ted Cruz, whatsoever. He’s nearly a disgrace.

            But I also have VERY little use for anyone, on this Forum, who disempowers the Forum, by comparing an American politician to any genocidal Fascist.

            Let’s keep it nice, tight and simple then and not expound beyond the boundaries you laid out above.

            You think Ted Cruz is a disgrace. You offer nothing else to back that, but it wasn’t the main point of your post, or was it simply a +1 against Cruz?

            I was talking ONLY about some pathetic politician by the name of CRUZ.

            huh

            You have very little use for anyone comparing U.S. polician to Hitler or Stalin. You should read some Antony Sutton who lays out the financial ties behind both Russian communism/hitlers Germany and wallstreet /U.S. politicians. Check out ‘Classified Woman’ by Sibel Edmonds for a more contemporary take on your Politicians and their corrupt and deadly ways. You act as if comparing the two is apples and oranges.

            I am sorry you feel that way. I’d recommend trying to fit more ad hominems in your response as it lends weight to your argument.

          • brettearle

            Those who don’t learn from much more reasonable dialogue and many more reasonable participants, in this Forum, are doomed to repeat their own mistakes.

            And, you have……..Sir.

            Good luck in your futuristic culture of Irrational Anxiety………Sir

          • Karl Prahl

            It’s hard to know where to begin. I will try not to be personal with this.

            I don’t think you know what ad hominem means. It’s not about adding a sir, sir. That’s just being polite and courteous, though it loses it’s charm when the malice is so heavily applied.

            You have offered nothing but your opinion while I have at least garnished my opinion with a few supporting authors and names so as to not be completely superfluous in my commentary. It is your choice not to like Cruz or believing that referring to U.S. politicians as Nazi’s is an offensive use of metaphor. It’s also your choice to check or not to check out the validity of what I say. If you are indeed versed on the subject of US and Nazi entanglements and have some insight to share on the subject, I would love to be educated and corrected. If you’re not, well.. First amendment. Say what you will. What did Twain say about a what others thought and keeping ones mouth shut?

            Now to address a few of your accusations as you were so kind to extend them (paraphrased): “Bogeyman hiding somewhere” What’s the U.S. Terror level at? Magenta? I think we’re all supposed to be looking for the bogeyman in turbans and baseball caps.
            “chaotic form of McCarthyism” Glad you mentioned this. Bit of a tangent, but you should check out the Reece commission w/ Norman Dodd and the Pujo commission.
            “futuristic irrational anxiety” I do feel a little funny… I thought it was gas.

          • brettearle

            The only thing worth saying, to you, at this point, is that I feel sincerely sorry for you…..Sir.

            Please let us know when your gated community has all the necessary security alarms and protective firearms. And please hire the best Personality Profilers that private security agencies have to offer.

            Only then will your own decayed version of the Bill of Rights be satisfied.

          • Karl Prahl

            Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Ad hominem. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Argumentum ad Verecundiam. Ad populum.

          • brettearle

            At least you’ve stopped speaking English.

            It’s a plus for most of us.

          • Karl Prahl

            Let me help raise you from ignorance, no matter how blissful it may be: Argumentum ad hominem is an argument to attack the person. Another way to put it is to shoot the messenger. It is trying to undermine the validity of an argument by discrediting the mouthpiece and not addressing the source.
            If an argument relies on demonizing the opposition then it is a fallacious argument. If it relies on generalizations and appeals to popularity or custom it is a fallacious argument.
            If you do not agree with my statements regarding Antony Suttons work, Sibel Edmonds work, the Reynolds case, the Reece committee, the Pujo Committee, the 1933 business plot, Maj Gen Smedley Butler etcetera, that is your choice, but realize that without addressing the claims put forth and instead focusing on demonizing the messenger, you are falling for a fallacy and omitting the use of your God-given-ability to critically think. If you don’t believe my claims regarding logic and fallacies I recommend starting w/ Plato and meeting me somewhere around 1999.
            Cheers!

          • brettearle

            “Let me assist in steering you towards Intelligent wisdom, no matter how tortuous it may be:

            “Argo-nautum ad fleece-um is an argument to Fleece the other person of wisdom by sending him on a Fool’s Errand.

            “Another way to put it is to shoot the Hero as a pre-emptive. It is trying to justify the validity of an Epithet by discrediting the detractor and not recognizing one’s own Inanity for what it is. If castigating one’s opponent, irrationally, is dependent on malignant rhetoric such as Fascism, then it is psychic diarrhea.”

            Under such odious circumstances of moral relativism, even “Mein Kampf” could have instructive points, to its own naysayers.

          • Karl Prahl

            I think my point would be made had you read Mein Kampf and Hitler’s glorification of the American System or his praise of such supporters as Henry Ford or found out about the Eugenics Record Office’s connections to the Tavistock Institute and both groups efforts to establish the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Medical Research in Germany. How about Edward Bernay’s connections to Goebbels and the Nazi propaganda machine? What about Hoover’s moves against American businesses supporting Nazi’s in 1942 which claimed such illustrious dignitaries as Senator Prescott Bush and E. Roland Harriman and the Union Banking Corporation? And then the return of that Nazi property to help fund the BCCI? Since I repeated the Bush bit, let me toss out “Paperclip” one more time.
            You do not have to believe in a theory or respect an author to read or listen to them. If these sources are highly influencial, such as Mein Kampf, it’s pretty darn important to understand WHY people are being “hoodwinked” or “mislead” or, if the source is believable and trustworthy, why their stance is valid. This requires that you read the primary source material or you’re just taking some guys word for it instead of making up your own mind. As for the above, a simple stop at wiki will reference plenty of primary source documents to begin your search. If you can’t find the time to educate yourself, I’m sorry.
            You say it is a Fool’s Errand to know your countries history, the players and their connections. The ideologies behind their actions and plans. Even if you do not believe me, you should check out the evidence as presented. How you view me should have no bearing if my offerings are not authoritarian in design. You don’t have to trust me, but to make a judgement based off your emotional response (You have yet to address the connections between U.S. politicians and the Nazis. Look into John Dulles and the Dulles family connections for even more collusion) is just not rational.
            You continue to paint a picture of the messenger (me) as some sort of irrational thinker, yet you have not addressed one point of evidence presented by me nor offered your own in return. This is intellectually bankrupt. If your position is correct, offer some evidence. Reference some authors or articles or movies or something that can be references other than your heart-felt believes and personal convictions. Point to material fact that can be quantified, believed or debunked by those not in possession of your individuality.

          • brettearle

            Sir,

            You clearly believe that all credible Media are in cahoots.

            Name one responsible journalist from Cronkite to Douglas Edwards to Arthur Krock to A. J. Liebling to Walter
            Lippman to Jospeh Mitchell to Murrow to Ernie Pyle to Runyon to William Shirer
            to IF Stone to Lowell Thomas….

            ….whoever pointed to a Fascist takeover of the United States by any organized covert operation that was funded and organized by an American Politician.

            Name One.

            You don’t know what you are talking about.

            You are feeding your own insurmountable Anxiety and are in full and utter denial about it.

            It is a sad form of political religiosity, from which you suffer.

            It is does NOT matter a WHIT how convincing and informative you think you sound.

            Not ONE WHIT….

            Do me a favor, yet again…..

            The next time you hear the Sirens, go through a Duck-and-Cover exercise.

            It’ll lie you there in good stead.

          • brettearle

            Sir,

            You clearly believe that all credible Media are in cahoots.

            Name one responsible journalist from Cronkite to Douglas Edwards to Arthur Krock to A. J. Liebling to Walter
            Lippman to Jospeh Mitchell to Murrow to Ernie Pyle to Runyon to William Shirer
            to IF Stone to Lowell Thomas….

            ….whoever pointed to a Fascist takeover of the United States by any organized covert operation that was funded and organized by an American
            Politician.

            Name One.

            You don’t know what you are talking about.

            You are feeding your own insurmountable Anxiety and are in full and utter denial about it.

            It is a sad form of political religiosity, from which you suffer.

            It is does NOT matter a WHIT how convincing and informative you sound.

            Not ONE WHIT….

            Do me a favor, yet again…..

            The next time you hear the Sirens, go through a Duck-and-Cover exercise.

            It’ll lie you there in good stead.

          • Karl Prahl

            Your argument would be more sound if it actually offered substance other than ad hominems. Please try not to let your logic fail. Offer facts, not opinion. You have not rebuffed a single source offered (as you claim it a waste of time), but only non sequitors and ad hominems which add nothing.
            See if you can respond without attacking the messenger.

          • brettearle

            Sir,

            You clearly believe that all credible Media are in cahoots.

            Name one responsible journalist from Cronkite to Douglas Edwards to Arthur Krock to A. J. Liebling to Walter
            Lippman to Jospeh Mitchell to Murrow to Ernie Pyle to Runyon to William Shirer
            to IF Stone to Lowell Thomas….

            ….whoever pointed to a Fascist takeover of the United States by any organized covert operation that was funded and organized by an American Politician.

            Name One.

            You don’t know what you are talking about.

            You are feeding your own insurmountable Anxiety and are in full and utter denial about it.

            It is a sad form of political religiosity, from which you suffer.

            It is does NOT matter a WHIT how convincing and informative you think you sound.

            Not ONE WHIT….

            Do me a favor, yet again…..

            The next time you hear the Sirens, go through a Duck-and-Cover exercise.

            It’ll lie you there in good stead.

      • J__o__h__n

        Ted Cruz started this by calling his opponents “appeasers.” I would worry about anyone throwing it back at him.

        • TFRX

          Yeah, but at some point an internet form is better served by pointing and laughing at a public figure like Cruz rather than high dudgeon.

          Although I do agree that I should practice my breath control if wait for someone at NPR news to be the first to say “Republican X calling Democrats appeasers is threatening to destroy comity and bipartisanship”.

          But whenever a Democrat somewhere says something in their own defense, NPR doesn’t seem to need anyone else in the media to say “What about the bipartisanship?” first.

          • pete18

            You must listen to NPR with a special set of headphones.

    • TFRX

      Cmon, going Godwin out of the gate is a losing gambit.

      He’s not a Nazi, just a mere demagogue who’s caught the media’s fancy like a tennis ball that I pretended to throw fascinates a Labrador retriever.

      And Ted Cruz hasn’t taken over anything, yet.

    • jefe68

      The Godwin’s law. Pretty lame.

    • JONBOSTON

      One of the more demented commentaries I’ve read on this blog in quite some time ( and believe me there is plenty of competition). By most polls nearly 55% -60% of the public does not support Obamacare and Cruz represents that faction of the American public.. To equate Ted Cruz with Hitler and Stalin is sick , but typical of the left.

      Marygrav–show me your not as stupid as you appear by debating Cruz’s arguments without attacking Cruz.

      • pete18

        It’s never about the argument, it’s always about the personality, the media source or invented straw men. In this instance it’s understandable because there’s not much of an argument for Obama care.

  • HonestDebate1

    Hockey?

  • pete18

    Good point from the Wall Street Journal for those, like the White House, who are liking Republicans to terrorists or hostage takers for using the debt ceiling negotiations to defund or delay Obama Care:

    “This columnist was no admirer of Ted Kennedy, ( Kennedy tried to attach a campaign finance reform bill to the debt ceiling in 1973) and we view government efforts to control political speech as an affront to the Constitution. But it would be ludicrous to suggest that Kennedy was a terrorist, even though that is the implication of the Pfeiffer-Times-Yglesias argument. Agree or not with its cause, it had significant popular support, in large part because of the corruption of the Nixon White House.

    Here is where the analogy to the Nixon years gets very interesting. The Republicans did not sneak into Congress to stage a surprise attack. They were duly elected in 2010 precisely because of widespread public opposition to ObamaCare. That law was enacted by the requisite
    majorities, if bare ones, in both houses of Congress. Yet while it was not illegitimate, it felt that way, and it would be fair to characterize its enactment as a failure of democratic governance. Had members of the House and Senate responded to their constituents’ wishes rather than presidential and partisan pressure, it would have gone down to defeat,
    probably overwhelmingly.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303796404579101560566092306.html?mod=rss_mobile_uber_feed

    • TFRX

      The White House isn’t calling anyone a terrorist.

      Uh, President Obama pointing out this talk by the right wingers doesn’t make him the one doing it. Your media consumption habits are suspect.

    • StilllHere

      Having identified them as such, he probably gets to listen to their phone calls and has the option of using drones.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    To answer the caller – the money is with Obamacare. Obamacare is a make job program on the backs of the middle class. Exchanges need to be created. Millions going to “organizers” to push the program.

    It was so telling listening to the talking heads make fun of Cruz for reading a bedtime story to his kids during his very long speech. Had it been a pro-obamacare democrat – somehow i suspect they would have found it charming and touching.

    • TFRX

      Ooh a “community organizer” dig.

      SNAP! Oh no he di-int! Oh yes he did!

  • Mike_Card

    Texas is where the dead-end street ends. Ted Cruz is the bus driver. Further questions?

    • HonestDebate1

      He is now leading in at least one poll for 2016. I could jump on this bus, I like where it’s going. We hit the dead end a while back, this is all new territory.

      • Karl Prahl

        Texas should secede. Then Louisiana. NM, AZ, CA, OK, IA, IL, NH, NY, GA, FL… you get the idea.
        We could all be nice, close friends instead of one giant seal-club wielded by tyrants. BAD AFGHANNI! BAD IRAQI! BAD GUATAMALAN! *splat*

        • fun bobby

          I like it. NH has a secessionist movement.

      • Mike_Card

        I only had 3 days in Asheville–wanted at least 2 more; never made it to Lake Fontana, but thanks for the pointer. What a great place, especially for a left coast guy to catch a break!

        • HonestDebate1

          Next time I’ll take you fishing but we can’t talk politics.

          • Mike_Card

            Deal! I think we both would benefit from the break.

    • fun bobby

      I am pretty impressed with anyone who can talk for 21 hours and only say a few stupid things

  • fun bobby

    i guess with all this talk of obamacare and shutdowns and 95% certainties of global warming I guess no one has time to talk about the latest NSA revelations. how convienient

  • TFRX

    Another backbencher Tea party conresscritter you’ve likely never heard of makes national headlines. As always, it ain’t sensible and it ain’t pretty.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/28/gop-to-add-conscience-clause-to-spending-bill/

    But advocates, such as Huelskamp, insist that all institutions should be able to opt out of any preventative coverage for women that they find objectionable.

    Normally I’d add something about “What about the liberty to opt out of all the other objectionable coverage for people besides fertile women…” and “A hospital isn’t a church…”

    But let’s not pretend any longer: Their aim is regulating womens’ sexuality. Full stop.

  • TFRX

    Another backbencher Tea party conresscritter you’ve likely never heard
    of makes national headlines. As always, it ain’t sensible and it ain’t
    pretty.

    http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/28/20732222-shutdown-nears-as-house-passes-funding-bill-that-delays-obamacare?lite

    “I said, like 9/11, ‘Let’s roll!’” Rep. John Culberson, R-Texas, told msnbc.com after a meeting of GOP lawmakers, referencing the rallying cry for passengers on Flight 93 who fought to retake the plane on Sept. 11, 2001.

    Three Beltway Inbreds managed to file this report without laughing out loud at this goober Culberson.

    I had no idea I was on a plane with terrorists and the only thing that would serve the greater good was a Texas right-winger crashing the plane and killing me.

    • hennorama

      TFRX — it’s difficult to discern which is worse — Rep Culberson misusing the brave words of 9/11 heroes, or Sen. Cruz invoking a comparison to Nazi appeasement.

      One wonders if various news organizations have updated their pre-written obituaries for these two, using their most recent foolish words. In Cruz’ case, one wagers that a ‘Green Eggs and Ham’ reference would be more likely.

      Regardless, both are reprehensible.

      To learn more about Rep. Culberson (or other elected officials), see:
      http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/summary.php?cycle=2014&cid=N00009738&type=I

      http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/john_culberson/400089

      http://votesmart.org/candidate/5488/john-culberson#.Ukg5fNLZhPI

      • pete18

        I do agree with you that Cruz’s Nazi comparison was pretty sad.

        • hennorama

          pete18 — TY for your response.

          What is strange is that Sen. Cruz, a very intelligent person, would use such a comparison, as it allows his opponents to dismiss him out of hand. It’s even worse if Sen. Cruz used that comparison in order to cater to those who agree with him, as that would mean that he thinks his supporters would agree with the comparison. Either way, use of the comparison is not a good tactic.

          My analysis of Sen. Cruz’ brief career is that he is merely making whatever argument he thinks will garner the most attention and support, in an effort to improve his political future. He is a highly skilled lawyer making an argument. However, he hasn’t had any notable effect, other than to deepen the already deep fractures inside the Republican Party.

          On Meet The Press, today, David Gregory said the same thing, in part:

          “But you’re a terrific lawyer, you’re making an argument. I asked you a specific question based on the facts on the ground. You’ve made all these arguments. My goodness you spoke for 21 hours to make these arguments. You haven’t moved anyone.”

          See:
          http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3032608/#53138652 (start at about 8:10 into the video for the whole exchange)

          • TFRX

            There is no “too far” for the right-wing hacks. Go “too far” and within a month one’s rep is already getting rehabbed through all the usual suspect sources.

            Plus there’s no Molly Ivins to put that jackwad in his place with humor from a fellow Texan.

  • HonestDebate1

    I’ve always taken an interest in what people think is funny. Comedy that is rooted in truth works best. To my way of thinking, noticing what people think is funny gives a hint to what they think is true.

    SNL nailed it… except the Cruz part which didn’t get as big of a yuk for some reason.

    http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/obamacare-cold-open/n41321/

    • 1Brett1

      Well, there is–in a sense–an exclusion of comedic devices such as sarcasm, irony, satire and parody, in your “analysis,” if one wishes to stretch the boundaries of description and call your comment any kind of examination of the topic in the human condition known as humor. There also seems to be some sort of desire on your part to make truth absolute and universal/to conflate perceptions and opinions with “truth.”

      It is really very difficult to tell what people are actually laughing at, specifically, when they laugh at something. Yes, there does have to be an element of truth in humor for it to work, but one person’s definition of “truth” compared to another’s is subjective. Comedy not only has to have an element of truth (whatever that may be), but It also has to have an element of surprise, and it also has to make people slightly uncomfortable. Occasionally, comedians will cross the line and audiences will be offended.

      As far as an element of “truth,” there is an element of truth in stereotypes, for example. Before, say, the ’60s, many comedians would base their humor/acts on stereotyping various ethnic groups. A lot of comedians would make fun of Chinese: “that Chinaman who ran a laundry…” Have there ever been any Chinese people who owned laundry businesses? Of course. “That wetback is so lazy…” Has there ever been a Mexican person who was lazy? No doubt. “That Jew is tight with his money…” Has there ever been a Jewish person who was a miser? Of course, and so on; but, most people would agree that those stereotypes are offensive and serve to reduce whole races of people to the worst stereotypes among them.

      After the ’60s and in current comedy, comedians use those same stereotypes, but they turn the idea of stereotyping on its head. Using irony, satire, sarcasm, etc., many comedians would do so to shine a spotlight on bigotry. A black comedian might make fun of stereotypes by emulating a stereotype, often to show an absurdity in the way a lot of white people perceive black people, fro example. That said, a bigot might laugh at that type of humor because he likes the idea of making fun of black people. Someone who is not a bigot might laugh at that because absurdity regarding racism, say, often can reveal a truth more than direct condemnation of racism. Making fun of bigotry/racism in that way can make people uncomfortable enough to laugh at the absurdity of bigotry/racism.

      Take, for example, your posting racial stuff, the Glozell video comes to mind; considering your stance that many minorities voted for Obama because he is black, and that they want the “free stuff” he has “promised to give” them, it is reasonable to assume (you never really admitted what you thought was funny about that video, by the way; after pestering, you offered something like, “I just thought it was funny) that you thought the video was funny because (I know, “don’t tell me what I think”…blah, blah, whatever) you thought Glozell was making fun of black people who are lazy/voted for Obama because he is black. I maintain that this is incorrect, that she was making fun of white bigotry that views blacks as being stereotypically lazy and having a sense of entitlement. So, there you go, you and I might laugh at the same comedy, but for very different reasons.

      P.S.–I don’t know what you are on about with the SNL skit, and I don’t care. My guess is that there is some point you wish to make beyond an expository comment on the mechanics of comedy. You have stated that you feel Ted Cruz is being a true patriot/great legislator for standing up for what’s “right,” etc., so it stands to reason that any fun-making of him would not be considered funny to you.

      • HonestDebate1

        There’s no absolute it’s just an observation, that’s just weird. It’s really not about me. Stereotypes are only funny when they are true, otherwise it’s just nasty. Wetbacks aren’t lazy and Jews aren’t tight. The portrayal of Cruz as a nut eager to shut down government and scream socialist is a stereotype. Those who think it was funny believe the stereotype which is hardly accurate. The notion of a loser son still living off his parents at 25 hits home. Ditto the woman liking lamp posts. That’s funny stuff.

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, Eh? — that you — someone who repeatedly writes “Blacks are…,” as if an entire race is a monolith — now write the above is more evidence of the lie of your moniker, sir, and your complete lack of credibility.

          That’s NOT funny stuff.

          • HonestDebate1

            You have the nuance of a jackhammer.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, Eh? — I hammer away at any jack who writes what you write, sir. Nuance is not required in any way, shape, or form.

            This is also (somewhat ironically) known in the vernacular as “Calling a spade a spade.”

            Please STFU (Stick To Foaling Ungulates).

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t stereotype blacks. I don’t view them as a monolith.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, Eh? — See Hamlet: Act 3, Scene 2 Line 230

            http://www.shakespeare-navigators.com/hamlet/H32.html

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t do Shakespeare, so I missed your cutsieness. If you have something to say then say it.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He — please define “cutsieness.”

            In this context it seems to mean “perfect reference that the ignorant refuse to acknowledge.”

          • jefe68

            Get thee to a nunnery.

          • 1Brett1

            Pity the Dishonest one doesn’t ever engage in any of the introspection found in Macbeth’s soliloquy!

          • HonestDebate1

            Who’s Mac Beth? Is she related to Mac Donald?

          • jefe68

            Well, he would have been seen a good tea party candidate in some ways.

          • 1Brett1

            What do you do for an encore? Ask people to pull your finger then fart?

          • jefe68

            It’s the Scottish play!

          • 1Brett1

            Oops, sorry…damn it, I just broke a mirror too, AND while walking under a ladder. Man, I’m surely screwed now!

          • 1Brett1

            henn, all that Shakespeare stuff sounds a little too much like Eastcost intellectual liberal elitism to me. Or, as the resident anti-intellectual might say…[see below] “I don’t do Shakespeare…”

          • HonestDebate1

            I like Dr. Suess better.

          • jefe68

            Are you aware that Theodor Geisel was a progressive and a moralist. Right?

          • TFRX

            Yeah, but his advertising art got my great-uncle hooked on huffing Flit.

          • HonestDebate1

            One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish!

            C’mon, Shakespeare can’t touch that.

          • jefe68

            Shakespeare was not writing children’s books.

          • HonestDebate1

            I prefer Dr. Suess.

          • 1Brett1

            That’s about right…

          • jefe68

            He is a very superficial, ignorant, unweighing fellow.

            Come, he is a tedious fool. To the purpose.

            With apologies to the Bard.
            Measure for Measure

        • 1Brett1

          You really have missed my point. I don’t care what you think is funny or not funny. You say it’s not about you then proceed to tell me what is and isn’t funny in your opinion: now that is, while not funny, ironic.

          Interesting coincidence(?) that your “spontaneous” “commentary” just happens to hint at a similar sentiment as found in Christian Toto’s piece on brietbart.com (I guess neocons all think alike, then?) :-) …You both applaud the Obamacare bashing parts (which wasn’t the point of those bits, really) but say the Ted Cruz part wasn’t funny…I didn’t see the sketch last night but watched it on brietbart.com. just now. I guess the parts that seem critical of Obamacare are funny; the parts making fun of Ted Cruz are not…okay, nothing partisan there [*sarcasm*]

          Both you and Toto fail to see what that skit was lampooning. Toto engaged in something in his commentary that at least you left less obvious; he put an actual overt political spin on the skit (yours was more subtle)…

          • HonestDebate1

            It doesn’t surprise me that someone else had the same reaction as me. I’ll check it out.

          • 1Brett1

            Yeah, not surprising that another necon would think the same thing…I agree that your “reaction” isn’t the least bit surprising or original.

          • TFRX

            Brett, I wish I didn’t have to reiterate what you already get: The Ghost of Breitfart whines because 1) the right is so much more satirizable than the left and 2) the right fails at satire, because they “kick down” instead of “kicking up”.

          • 1Brett1

            That is so true, TFRX! …I think it’s funny that the righties all thought the SNL skit was funny in the lampooning of the ACA but thought the lampooning of Ted Cruz wasn’t funny (who woulda thought?!). I also find it typical that the righties thought the lampooning of the ACA was funny because of some perceived putdown on the part of SNL. First, SNL is going for laughs, not a political agenda. Second, the satire was really about making a mockery of the fear-mongering going on regarding Obamacare. I guess satire isn’t something the righties are particularly good at understanding.

        • 1Brett1

          This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRgB2eeHZEw) says it all. You posted it several months ago. It accompanied several comments of yours about black people voting for Obama because he’s black and that they like the free stuff he gives them, which is the worst kind of ugly stereotyping.

          You also misrepresented what the comedian’s intention and point of the video was. You took it out of context in a sense. You reduced it to making fun of black people who you feel have a sense of entitlement; you exploited it. Your superficial and bigoted view that the video makes fun of black people and that’s why you consider it funny certainly reveals something about you, so I agree with you there.

          You sort of did the same thing with the SNL skit about Obamacare.

          • jefe68

            No matter how Dishonest debate tries to frame his arguments at the end of the day he’s using language to define people not like them as other. Which by definition is a racist act.

          • HonestDebate1

            You do realize that I did not reference race at all, don’t you? It never crossed my mind. The skit is not racial in the least. You guys are the ones.

          • 1Brett1

            Um, jefe was speaking to my larger point about about race/stereotyping, etc., in a general sense and not in a reply to you specifically about the SNL skit. He was also replying to my comment about the Gloaell video. By the way, are regular commenters on here to pretend they don’t have any knowledge about your comments over time about race? Also, the general topic (one which you introduced) was about comedy and what people might possibly think based on what they laugh at or what their intentions might be/a hint of those intentions based on their humor.

          • HonestDebate1

            I didn’t inject race into the Glozell thing either.

            Obama is trying put lipstick on the pig that is Obamacare. Unions are bailing, the cost is skyrocketing, ditto insurance premiums, not one single State is ready for the exchanges, Obama just delayed the 20th aspect of the law, businesses are cutting back to part time and on and on. That is the back drop that made the skit funny, it has nothing to do with any race aspect that you are so obsessed with.

          • 1Brett1

            You say you weren’t injecting race by posting the Glozell video; that doesn’t make it so. It was within the context of black people voting for Obama because he’s black, e.g., Colin Powell. That, sir, is injecting race into your comment, no matter what your denial.

            I also didn’t say you injected race into your comment about the SNL skit. I made a larger point about the relationship you have established on this forum regarding your opinions, your views about race, and your posting of racially-charged humor. You have posted stuff regarding humor, race and stereotypes, etc. have you not?

          • HonestDebate1

            She just happens to be black. There are many many white people that voted for him because he’s half black. Race should play no factor at all in voting or any thing else. They’re all sick.

          • 1Brett1

            “She just happens to be black.”

            You’re funny.

          • HonestDebate1

            Really, she is.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, you know that there’s nothing that gives a guy an advantage in America like being a minority. I feel bad for all of those put upon white people who are under the boot of the terrible oppression that they face.

          • HonestDebate1

            It was in the context of people (all people) voting for Obama because he’s half black. Colin Powell (and probably you) are included.

          • 1Brett1

            (As an aside, you make a point of pointing out he’s half black a lot…interesting obsession with that point (I have no point in saying that, just making an observation.)

            Is it just a coincidence that the people you chose to highlight/mention in driving home your point are black? (E.g., Colin Powell, Glozell, etc.)

          • HonestDebate1

            I mentioned you didn’t I? Are you black? Or half black?

          • 1Brett1

            I didn’t vote for Obama because he’s black, or half black, even. I voted for the white half of Obama, so you are way off- base with that presumption. ;-)

          • HonestDebate1

            So you did use skin color as a factor, I thought so. I didn’t weigh it one single iota.

          • 1Brett1

            So, you’re the one who voted for Obama irrespective of his skin color!?! Man, are you difficult to gauge.

          • HonestDebate1

            That’s me. Race should play no part. It’s sad so many consider it a factor.

          • jefe68

            Oy vay.

          • HonestDebate1

            Wow, so that’s what I was thinking? And that’s what my babe Glozell was thinking?Thanks, I had no idea. I just thought I thought it was funny,

            I’ve definitely said people voted for Obama because they want free stuff. And I have also said many people voted for Obama because he is half black. I have not said black people voted for Obama because they want free stuff. I don’t stereotype blacks. You made that part up. Hell, I don’t even assume they can’t get an ID and vote.

          • 1Brett1

            “Wow, so that’s what I was thinking? And that’s what my babe Glozell was thinking?”

            Was Glozell making fun of some black people who are lazy and feel entitled? I don’t think she was. I think she was making fun of certain white people’s perceptions about certain black people. If I am wrong, how should the video be interpreted? What was Glozell’s intention? What was it you found funny about the video? Since I am wrong in my perceptions, show me where I am wrong.

            When you posted the video several months ago, you put it in the context of black people voting for Obama because he is black; namely, Colin Powell within that comment. How are we to interpret that? Here’s your chance to set the record straight.

            Anyway, people can judge the video for themselves:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRgB2eeHZEw

        • J__o__h__n

          The portrayal of Cruz was accurate. He was being mocked as an individual. That isn’t the same as a racial stereotype.

          • HonestDebate1

            IMO the portrayal was not accurate, I don’t think he’s a crazed zealot at all but that’s cool if you liked it. The “Green Eggs And Ham” bit was cute. Our respective reactions probably have something to do with our opinions of what the truth is. That was really the only point I was making.

            I don’t consider racial stereotypes any better or worse than any other stereotyping. As a comedic device the success relies on the degree of truth as defined by the listener. The dead beat kid in the skit was white. If he were black the bit would have been just as funny. Regarding Glozell, she used racial stereotyping but it was funny because there is in fact the very attitude she portrayed in the black community. The Glozell character exists, look at the obamaphone lady for goodness sakes! I say laugh at them; mock them, shun them and expect more from them.

            To my way of thinking, mine is the compassionate position but when I say the above a leap is immediately made to accuse me of saying blacks are deadbeats. I never did and find the notion despicable. At the root of it all I think blacks are just as capable, ethical and industrious as anyone else. Their race has no inherent inferiorities. That notion is what bugs people around here so they excuse, through willful blindness, the destructive dynamic.

          • Ray in VT

            You think that the notion that a particular race has no inherent inferiorities “bugs people around here”? Please name these people and cite their statements when they have made claims as to a particular group having an inherent inferiority so that I might criticize them for doing so.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, I’m not going to name names. It’s just my opinion. If I suggest a black person can obtain an ID and vote just as easily as a white person then that bugs people around here. If I suggest we should expect a 19 year old woman to be able to read cursive, that bugs people around here. If I suggest college admissions determine their standards without regard to race, that bugs people around here.

            And regarding Glozell, I catch all grades of hell for just posting her suggestion that some blacks are gaming the system. It bugs people around here if you expect blacks to play by the rules.

          • Ray in VT

            Maybe what bugs people is that you blindly gloss over the real and significant difficulties that people face in society, often seemingly choosing only minority targets for derision and citing numbers coming out of racist groups in order to paint said minorities in as bad a light as possible.

          • HonestDebate1

            What is it about being black that makes it harder to vote, read cursive or get good grades? Smarty pants.

          • Ray in VT

            White conservative Republicans make it harder for black people to vote, at least lately.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then.

          • Ray in VT

            Sorry to forget the “independent” minded Teabaggers. Them too. What I really want to know is why can’t black people use an abacus or a spinning wheel? What is the world coming to?

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you realize how racially insensitive your comment is? What is it about being black that makes it harder to vote than it is for whites. The new laws also require whites to have an ID. You have proven my point. Why does the suggestion that blacks are just as capable of obtaining an ID as whites bug you?

          • Ray in VT

            By continuing to be immensely oblivious to the many points that people have made to you over time regarding this issue, I think that you are proving my point. Why does the suggestion that conservative whites are trying to keep people away from the polls that oppose them politically bug you. The track record seems pretty clear that that is the point.

          • HonestDebate1

            It bugs me when laws are made for everyone and some think blacks are inherently inferior and disproportionately affected because of their race. Is it that blacks are easily intimidated? Are they inherently poor? Felons? Or just stupid? No one but no one can keep me or anyone else from voting.

          • Ray in VT

            It just bugs you that pointing out the laws passed by white conservatives have a disproportionate effect on racial minorities? Reality must really tick you off. Sure. No one can keep anyone from voting. Sure dude, sure.

          • HonestDebate1

            So now only whites support voter ID? That’s just more racial insensitivity. Blacks oppose voter fraud too you know.

            What’s the best way to keep you from voting?

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, it’s just too bad that most of the GOP measures seem to be about putting obstacles in the path of groups that tend to vote for the Democrats.

            Best way to stop me from voting? Make me a poor minority in a red state.

          • HonestDebate1

            You will just die before you will answer the question, won’t you. What is it about being a minority in a red state that can keep you from voting, assuming you are not an idiot? I don’t assume blacks are idiots.

          • Ray in VT

            I’m pretty sure that I did answer it. Just try reading it again. You don’t assume that black people are idiots? You just demean them use stats from a racist organization and foolishly misread statistics paint them as epidemically preying on whites.

  • Mike_Card

    So now the t-crack-heads are falling back on their threat to destroy the country’s credit rating unless their 10% of the electorate doesn’t get to run the country.
    Who let these d**k-heads in the door? And why do we still have laws that enable the Kocks to run the country? Oh, dear–did I just write Kocks?

  • hennorama

    Regardless of one’s political opinion of Howard Dean, his remarks last week at the New Hampshire Institute of Politics & Political Library at Saint Anselm College are worth a look and listen. The topic was “Health Care in the Private Sector.”

    See:
    http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/DeanRe

  • OnPointComments

    I thought it felt cool in here…

    Climate change: this is not science – it’s mumbo jumbo
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10340408/Climate-change-this-is-not-science-its-mumbo-jumbo.html

    “There is, however, one uncomfortable fact that the new report has been – very reluctantly – obliged to come to terms with. That is that global warming appears to have ceased: there has been no increase in officially recorded global mean temperature for the past 15 years. This is brushed aside as a temporary blip, and they suggest that the warming may still have happened, but instead of happening on the Earth’s surface it may have occurred for the time being in the (very cold) ocean depths – of which, incidentally, there is no serious empirical evidence.”

    MIT Climate Scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen Rips UN IPCC Report
    http://www.climatedepot.com/2013/09/28/mit-climate-scientist-dr-richard-lindzen-rips-un-ipcc-report-the-latest-ipcc-report-has-truly-sunk-to-level-of-hilarious-incoherence-it-is-quite-amazing-to-see-the-contortions-the-ipcc-has/

    “The latest IPCC report has truly sunk to level of hilarious incoherence. — They are proclaiming increased confidence in their models as the discrepancies between their models and observations increase. It is quite amazing to see the contortions the IPCC has to go through in order to keep the international climate agenda going.”

  • jefe68

    In 2007, Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress and had deep political differences with then-President George W. Bush. Yet they passed a clean debt limit increase, with about as many Democrats as Republicans voting “aye.”
    What we have now is hostage taking, period.

    • HonestDebate1

      Tip O’Neal shut down the government 12 times.

  • HonestDebate1

    Fine. I’m just saying it’s not uncommon nor the end of the world.

    • Seldoc

      You’re right, if this one doesn’t last too long, it won’t be the end of the world. If it drags on, though, it could cause some real damage. What’s truly scary, however, is the House’s playing games with the debt ceiling. If the overwhelming majority of economists from both left and right a failure to increase it could cause a catastrophe.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 24, 2014
Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

California as Exhibit A for what happens when a state bans affirmative action in college admissions. We’ll look at race, college and California.

Apr 24, 2014
A Buddhist monk lights the funeral pyre of Nepalese mountaineer Ang Kaji Sherpa, killed in an avalanche on Mount Everest, during his funeral ceremony in Katmandu, Nepal, Monday, April 21, 2014.  (AP)

A Sherpa boycott on Everest after a deadly avalanche. We’ll look at climbing, culture, life, death and money at the top of the world.

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Apr 23, 2014
Attendees of the 2013 Argentina International Coaching Federation meet for networking and coaching training. (ICF)

The booming business of life coaches. Everybody seems to have one these days. Therapists are feeling the pinch. We look at the life coach craze.

 
Apr 23, 2014
In this Thursday, Dec. 20, 2012, file photo, Chet Kanojia, founder and CEO of Aereo, Inc., shows a tablet displaying his company's technology, in New York. Aereo is one of several startups created to deliver traditional media over the Internet without licensing agreements. (AP)

The Supreme Court looks at Aereo, the little startup that could cut your cable cord and up-end TV as we’ve known it. We look at the battle. Plus: a state ban on affirmative action in college admissions is upheld. We’ll examine the implications.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
Up At Everest Base Camp, ‘People Still Don’t Know The Ramifications’
Thursday, Apr 24, 2014

With a satellite phone call from Mount Everest’s Base Camp, climber and filmmaker David Breashears informs us that the Everest climbing season “is over.”

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The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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Our Week In The Web: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Space moon oceans, Gabriel García Márquez and the problems with depressing weeks in the news. Also: important / unnecessary infographics that help explain everyone’s favorite 1980′s power ballad.

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