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Week In The News: Syria Horror, Manning Sentence, NSA

Nerve gas charges and scenes of horror in Syria.  Bradley Manning gets 35 years.  More trouble for the NSA.  Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Syrian refugees cross into Iraq at the Peshkhabour border point in Dahuk, 260 miles (430 kilometers) northwest of Baghdad, Iraq, Tuesday, Aug. 20, 2013. (AP)

Syrian refugees cross into Iraq at the Peshkhabour border point in Dahuk, 260 miles (430 kilometers) northwest of Baghdad, Iraq, Tuesday, Aug. 20, 2013. (AP)

Hideous images out of Syria this week.  Nerve gas charges.  And once again, the question of what the world should do.  It’s done little.

In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak flies out of prison.  In the US, Bradley Manning heads into a 35 year sentence and says he’s a woman.  Chelsea.  She.  With everybody heading back to school, Barack Obama says he’ll use government leverage to beat tuition down.

The NSA, in more trouble on surveillance.  Wall Street’s in a tizzy.  Fukushima is leaking large.  Elmore Leonard has died.  Up next On Point:  our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

- Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Romesh Ratnesar, international editor and deputy editor for Bloomberg Businessweek. (@romeshratnesar)

Rana Foroohar, assistant managing editor for Time magazine, in charge of economics and business. (@ranaforoohar)

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

NBC News: UN has ‘strong concern’ over reports of hundreds killed in Syria chemicals weapons attacks – “The U.N. Security Council said Wednesday it was necessary to clarify reports from Syria’s opposition that hundreds of civilians – including many women and children – have been killed in chemical weapons attacks. The council, however, stopped short of demanding a probe by U.N. investigators in Syria — although said it welcomed U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon’s calls for one.”

Politico: Bradley Manning plans to ask for White House pardon – “Bradley Manning’s defense team plans to ask President Barack Obama to pardon the soldier, who was sentenced to 35 years in prison for giving thousands of secret government documents to WikiLeaks. Manning’s lawyer, David Coombs, said Wednesday he would file a request early next week with the Department of the Army with the hope of making its way to the president, asking him either to pardon Manning or commute his sentence to time served.”

The Wall Street Journal: New Details Show Broader NSA Surveillance Reach – “The National Security Agency—which possesses only limited legal authority to spy on U.S. citizens—has built a surveillance network that covers more Americans’ Internet communications than officials have publicly disclosed, current and former officials say. The system has the capacity to reach roughly 75% of all U.S. Internet traffic in the hunt for foreign intelligence, including a wide array of communications by foreigners and Americans. In some cases, it retains the written content of emails sent between citizens within the U.S. and also filters domestic phone calls made with Internet technology, these people say.”

 

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  • OnPointComments

    I won the bet I made. I bet that “On Point Week In The News” would not include the murder of Australian Christopher Lane as one of the topics listed on the webpage.

    • jimino

      I won my bet that the first comment on this week’s program would be form some ignorant fool with an even more ignorant agenda.

      • jefe68

        Wait, he’s just warming up.

      • StilllHere

        But your’s wasn’t the first.

    • 1Brett1

      You have to arm wrestle Tom Ashbrook before you can claim your prize, though, OPC.

    • J__o__h__n

      There should be coverage. Including how the murderer procured the weapon.

    • HonestDebate1

      … or David Santucci or Delbert Benton or the trial of De’Marquise Elkins. But don’t worry “Law and Order” has an upcoming episode that features Paula Deen killing Trayvon Martin. I’m not joking.

      The propaganda machine is out of control. It’s highly upsetting to me. I’m really at my wits end.

      • jefe68

        That would be a good trick as Law and Order stopped airing about three years ago.

        You could have fooled me, I thought you were at wits end long before today.

      • hennorama

        Debates Not, He – two questions:

        1. What is the “propaganda” value or significance of a ‘L&O SVU’ episode? Per hollywood.com, “executive producer Warren Leight explains the conflation of the controversial topics: “[Jeffrey] Tambor is a defense attorney representing a very high-profile celebrity woman chef [played by Cybill Shepherd] who thought she was being pursued by a rapist and turned around it was a teenager. And she shot him … There’s a lot of stop and frisk elements to that as well.”

        See:
        http://www.hollywood.com/news/tv/55027021/paula-deen-trayvon-martin-law-order-svu-episode

        2. What is the distance from your wit’s beginning to your wit’s end?

    • hennorama

      OPC – good day to you.

      Do you feel that the abhorrent death of Christopher Lane hasn’t received enough press coverage? Why are you concerned that OP WITN did “not include the murder of Australian Christopher Lane as one of the topics listed on the webpage”?

      • OnPointComments

        The murder of Christopher Lane is an international incident. If an incident that has already received adequate press coverage means that OP WITN doesn’t include it in the program, then I’m perplexed by OP’s extensive coverage of the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case.

        • hennorama

          OPC – TYFYR.

          Indeed the indefensible killing of Mr. Lane “is an international incident,” and has received international coverage from the very start.

          Tom Ashbrook did make mention of the case during the show.

          Is there some particular aspect of the case that concerns you, or that you feel has not been/is not being adequately covered?

          • OnPointComments

            In my opinion, political correctness is the reason that the death of Christopher Lane didn’t garner more discussion. White Hispanic kills black teen, that’s a story; black teen kills white college student, not worth further discussion.

          • hennorama

            OPC – TYFYR.

            You may be correct, but there has been significant national and international coverage of the case, has there not? This coverage includes the cable sports networks, which is how I first learned of Mr. Lane’s senseless death.

            One assumes you are aware that one of the alleged offenders is white, and two are black. Unless of course you perceive the white person as “White Black.”

            One question – how long was it before Trayvon Martin’s death received national and international coverage?

            Another question – how do you feel about the reports of this case that erroneously said that Mr. Lane was shot by “three black teens”?

            See:
            http://www.mediaite.com/online/fox-and-friends-daily-caller-falsely-report-3-black-teens-arrested-in-chris-lane-murder/

            You may have missed it, but there was a significant amount of back and forth about this case in the OP forum titled “Congressman John Lewis And The 50th Anniversary Of The March On Washington.” For some reason, commenters who brought up this senseless death seemed to feel it was connected to racism and/or was comparable in some way to the Martin/ZImmerman case.

            The fact that one of the alleged offenders is white seemed to be completely irrelevant to the narrative, or the commenters were completely ignorant of the facts of the case.

            Or both, which seems more likely.

          • OnPointComments

            It’s the double standard: the media, politicians, and race-hustlers strained to create a racist motive in the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case when all evidence showed that it didn’t exist; they ignore the racist motive in the killing of Christopher Lane, or deems the racist motive to be inconsequential, or says that it doesn’t exist despite the social media comments by the killer.

            If the spurious racist motive attributed to Zimmerman demanded a national conversation about race, then surely the authentic racist motive in this case demands the same conversation.

    • HonestDebate1

      Allow me to give voice to the implication as is my usual want. I don’t expect you to endorse it because if I am correct it is not pretty IMHO. And obviously I am speculating.

      Conventional wisdom says blacks are not safe in a racist America. This is a meme the liberals are highly invested in. That is why Trayvon Martin was martyred. That is why the racial angle was manufactured and the sycophants swallowed it whole based on spoon fed pre-conceived notions. The last thing OP and the rest want is for the truth to be known. That is the biggest threat by far to blacks is other blacks. The last thing a black person has to worry about is being a victim of racial violence from a white. It is rare. That fact discredits the meme the press so want to believe and propagate.

      But it’s worse, and here’s where it get’s dicey, many people don’t expect much from blacks. They don’t expect them to be diligent, honest or educated. They may not come out and excuse the racial violence but they will imply caveats built on the false premise of the meme. There is an undercurrent of “well, they have reason to be angry”. No they don’t.

    • OnPointComments

      I won the bet I made. I bet that “On Point Week In The News” would not include the murder of Australian Christopher Lane as one of the topics listed on the webpage.

  • Ed75

    The Vatican is still gently investigating the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR). This committee represents more than half the congregations but less than half the women religious in the U.S., and many of their members don’t agree with the leadership positions.
    At bottom their trouble is that they believe a heresy: they believe that the Vatican is wrong, that because they are all men they are patriarchal and can’t make just or informed decisions. This conflicts with Church teaching that the church is holy (‘one holy catholic church’) and that God leads the church primarily through the hierarchy (‘The Church is hierarchical’ Vatican II, ‘He who hears you, hears me’ Jesus to Peter).
    They believed a mistaken principle of feminist theory over Church doctrine.
    As a result they lead many Catholics away from the Sacraments, they themselves are older now and have no new vocations, aren’t living according to their constitutions, and are dying out. Contumacious.

    • 1Brett1

      If those misguided religious women would just realize that there’s absolutely nothing patriarchal about Church doctrine being determined by only men, all men, all the time!

    • J__o__h__n

      This is an internal matter and not newsworthy.

      • 1Brett1

        John, come on! Did you not read, “they lead Catholics AWAY from the Sacraments”?! I mean, as Ed said, they ARE dying out, but still!

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Somewhere a church bulletin is missing its most enthusiastic scribe.

  • Ed75

    In a related story Pope Francis announed that on the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, October 13th, he will again consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. (Done in 1984 by Pope John Paul II.) This is a massive event.

    • fun bobby

      who unconsecrated it

      • 1Brett1

        Maybe it just wore off on its own and needed a booster consecration, FB? In this crazy, mixed up, fast-paced modern world, we often find ourselves “blaming” someone when it very well may be no one’s fault. I beseech you to let go of this blame game for once…after all, they don’t make consecrations the way they used to!

      • sickofthechit

        Pedophile priests and their protectors.
        charles. bowsher

    • J__o__h__n

      Not newsworthy. Not this week. Not in October.

    • 1Brett1

      What?! On the THIRTEENTH day of October!?!? That seems almost paganistic!

  • fun bobby

    maybe they will let ms manning go when they find out how much her surgery will cost.

  • alsordi

    WeekintheNews:

    Bradley Manning’s sex change would typically be embraced by the pseudo-liberals, however since he has blasphemed the deity of Israeli interests, his gender is being used as a snickering weapon by them (and their media) to discredit this person who despite his irregularity, has actually performed world-changing heroic deeds in the service of mankind.

    False Flag chemicals in Syria – As if the Assad regime would need to use chemical weapons, especially while the UN inspectors are on the ground in Syria. Particularly since SYRIA is already handily beating the western backed rebels. Syria doesnt need WMDs.

    But apparently the ailing USA ECONOMY is screaming for a diversionary WAR before the next big collapse.

    NSA The approximately one hundred thousand people, living large basking in US taxpayer dollars, making a cushy living on eavesdropping and inside trading on Wall Street, need to be retrained in careers THAT ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE TO SOCIETY. Farming, teaching, nursing…. NOT SNOOPING.

    • 1Brett1

      I don’t care to comment on “Chelsea” Manning’s new controversy/predicament (it seems she’s a magnate for drama and complication), but I did want to remark about your statement, “[Manning] has actually performed world-changing heroic deeds in the service of mankind.” I’d say you have overreached a tad and your statement is a bit bloated. Ms. Manning probably won’t be canonized by “The Church” (and by “The Church” I mean the Church), nor will she be deified in a secular sense, making your characterization a one-off hyperbolic snap shot of singularity.

      Also, as to your second paragraph’s opener, “False Flag attack in Syria,” being the good little conspiracist that you are, you’d be remiss if you didn’t label it a false flag. Touché and good on ya’ for being the first of the day to really push the proverbial envelope.

      • alsordi

        Howdy Brett, Apparently the system works well for you, at the expense of the rest of the world.

        But gosh… I really hope you are one of the one-percenters, and not just a wannabee.

        • 1Brett1

          Ooh, Temper, temper…am I being smug/complacent/elitist for not seeing a false flag scenario in the attack in Syria? Hmmm, and here I thought we were friends, yet you call me a “one-percenter”!?! Man, I’m hurt now.

          Believe you me, yeah, no, I wasn’t saying anything necessarily bad about your false flag theory. Why, back in college, I, too, experimented a bit in conspiracies; we used to get all hopped up on conspiracy theories and go out gallivanting about; it was great fun!

          • alsordi

            ….. definitely not a one-percenter.

          • 1Brett1

            For a conspiracist, you aren’t very creative. I’m disappointed in you.

          • alsordi

            For a shill, you aren’t very good at it.

          • 1Brett1

            I guess when the government comes and herds me down a hole, I’ll sure wish I was a 1%’er! AMIRITE?! And, I guess I’d have to get up pretty early in the morning to fool you…how did you know I am working for the New world Order’s elite committee of false flag organizers? You do know that I’ll probably be stuffed in a barrel and shipped to Tierra del Fuego because of this, don’t you?

  • Christopher Noel

    About Morsy, the stock phrase is that he was “democratically elected,” but no commentators seem to take into account the fact that he also suspended the constitution, dissolved parliament, and abrogated the authority of the judiciary. At what point do a leader’s actions run so counter to democratic principles that his removal becomes warranted?

    • hennorama

      Christopher Noel – good question. Apparently the expiration date in Egypt is one year, with three days for a leader to get the flock out.

      As an aside – when did we change from Morsi to Morsy?

  • alsordi

    Hey, how about the US getting Mubarak sprung, dark sunglasses and all?
    and the US media is blaming it on the Saudis while claiming that the USA has little influence on the Egyptian military.
    Sure…they only equip them, take care of the generals, and train their officers in the USA.

    Along with the chemical weapons, its all so believable, especially when “journalists” like Shirley Temple Raston report it.

  • StilllHere

    Where’s the red line this week?

    • Coastghost

      We’ll find out only as soon as Samantha Power delivers her read lines.

      • HonestDebate1

        And of course she is on vacation.

      • hennorama

        Coastghost – très drôle. A [Vote up] solely for the humor value.

  • sickofthechit

    I think the news of the day that we will probably never hear about is that it was Vladimir Putin driving the Russian Military Hovercraft that crashed into the beach. Expect no film on this one. charles a. bowsher

  • sickofthechit

    Do we want to be as secure as possible or have as much privacy as possible? Somewhere on that continuim (sp?) is where we need to be. It will take us some time to get there. All of us who clamber for more privacy have to be willing to accept that some attacks will happen and be successful. How many successful attacks and deaths each year are acceptable? For us that is a rhetorical question, for those in the Intelligence community and our government it is a real question they have to answer time and time again on a daily basis. i do not envy them their task.

    Having less privacy is not a guarantee of greater safety, but the chances are it will yield more safety…than will tying the NSA’s hands…..
    charles a. bowsher

    • hennorama

      Yes, and Yes. We want both.

      As that’s impossible these days, there needs to be some compromise. We have such a compromise in place. Whether that’s the appropriate compromise is the real issue, is it not?

      Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

  • Coastghost

    Clinton went cruising into the Balkans without any enabling UN mandate: why does Bluster Obama balk?

    • Bluejay2fly

      Firstly, that was a mistake. Secondly, Syria has a very powerful nation Russia backing it.

      • Coastghost

        Serbia had/has even deeper and closer ties with Russia: didn’t stop Clinton from contravening both the UN charter and the NATO charter.

        • Bluejay2fly

          Russia was still in turmoil over the recent fall of the Soviet Union. I think using our military and spending Billions to help citizens abroad while Doctors Without Borders comes to the US is a disgrace.

  • Coastghost

    Bluster Obama: the master of clear ambiguity and opaque transparency . . . .

  • MrWakiki

    Barack lacks creditability discussing acts of ware and invading another country — since he is the king of Drones

    • J__o__h__n

      Aren’t acts of ware for the commerce secretary?

  • stephenreal

    David sounds like a wingnut if I ever heard one before let’s be honest here.

  • adks12020

    Anyone that thinks the U.S. can just fly in and solve this Syria issue needs to wake up. We don’t have the troops; we don’t have the money. If we give weapons to the resistance we could very well be giving money to terrorists.
    Our record in the middle east is a total failure. What makes anyone think we can do better this time? I really don’t get it. Every time something happens in the world Team America proponents say we should use military action and every time it blows up in our face…EVERY TIME. Why do we do this over and over and over and expect different results?
    Maybe, just maybe, if other nations agree and can all join together in an effort to defeat Assad we should join. Otherwise, despite how tragic the situation is, we need to leave it alone. America is not the world police. We need to change our attitude.

    • stephenreal

      You read like a whiny victim. The Allies can shape the the out come to Syria. No doubt about it.

      • adks12020

        A “whiny victim”? Can you seriously point to any success in a world conflict other than maybe the Balkans since World War II? Please, enlighten me. I would love to hear of one.
        I’m not saying we should get involved at all. I’m saying we can’t continue to try to solve every problem around the world with almost zero help from anyone else. It simply isn’t possible. Every other country sits on their butts and waits for us to do something and then criticizes what we do. It’s time for other countries to step up and help out.

        • stephenreal

          So we sit on our hands like the kid whom got picked on in the hallway? really? One has a duty to try to save these people. Let’s not be cowards here.

          • adks12020

            Read my comment. I did not say that. I’m saying we would have a much better chance of success if we weren’t the only actor in the attempt for a solution. America’s first reaction is always “send in the military”…before even thinking out how it would work (see Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea, etc. etc.). Even the military leadership is wary of military action because they aren’t sure how, or if, it would work.

          • stephenreal

            Are you serious? Where did you go to school? And you leave out economics. Is that intentional?

            Korea is one of the top ten economies of the world. Vietnam is begging the US Navy to go back into business with them not too mention Microsoft, etc… Iraq votes and it simply irritates everybody in the region no matter how deeply flawed the vote is.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Yeah, and to tangent about “don’t have the troops”, shouldn’t we be having a talk about “you and what Army” now?

      In the macro, unit readiness has been an issue. In the other macro, haven’t we heard enough coverage on many service-men and -women who’re on more “stop loss” deployments than is good for them?

    • HonestDebate1

      I don’t necessarily disagree in theory with you but the fact remains if we are not the world’s police someone else will be, maybe even Syria. Who would you suggest? Do you believe the consequences of doing nothing are nil?

      And I’m seriously not trying to be contentious. These are legitimate concerns. I also don’t claim to have the answer.

      • adks12020

        Nor do I. It’s a horrible and complex situation and doing nothing or doing something can both end very badly. It does seem doing the same thing we’ve always done, with little success, may be the wrong way to go though.

    • sickofthechit

      What we really need is a public service draft that all young adults participate in for two to three years after or at the end of high school. In his novel “For Us the Living”, Robert A. Heinlein (the Science Fiction writer) proposed a military draft for our country whereby all 18 or 19 year olds were subject to it. The change from systems of old was that those drafted would get to vote whether we went to war or not. My somewhat foggy memory is that his theory was that we and other nations would all become much more peaceable if those actually going to war were the ones who decided their own fate. They would also all pay a lot closer attention in their Civics classes….

      I personally think we should have two levels of elections on a fairly regular basis. We can’t force citizens to be up on civics and government issues so for planning purposes hold referendums on issues and let ones knowledge be what determines the weighting of their vote. Maintain our current one person one vote for elections for actual officeholders, though we should get rid of the electoral college, make all elections for office require 50%+1 vote, if less than 50%+1 have a top two runoff to settle it.

      In that same book he had what I have always considered to be fascinating proposals about the ownership of the earth’s natural resources (he favored all owned by all), work, education, life, and a possible future for us…….
      charles a. bowsher

  • AC
  • HonestDebate1

    Can anyone explain why Ayo Kimathi still has a job?

    http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2013/08/21/dhs-employee-promotes-race-war-in-spare-time-advocates-mass-murder-of-whites/#.UhUrdElWfjY.twitter

    His barbaric advocacy was discovered months ago. Or a better question would be how did he get his job in the first place? I suppose the same questions could be asked about AG Holder. This administration is full of radicals and that’s not an accident.

    • stephenreal

      Well at least the colored people can vote in Texas now. It ain’t all that bad.

  • MrNutso

    I always have the sense that when people say we should get involved in this or that conflict, they view as a potential world war II. I always view it as another potential Vietnam.

    • stephenreal

      Dude that was like six wars ago. really dude? really?

      • Bluejay2fly

        We fought the Cold War to stop the USSR from spreading communism. We fought it because it was not right for one nation to use military intervention to force countries towards their point of view. When we won instead of folding up shop we continued to use our military to force capitalism and democracy on other nations. It’s cost us TRILLIONS and our nation is falling apart.

        • stephenreal

          Our republic was the first in three thousand years. Every country other then America was in the hands of dictators, kings, war lords and all degrees of authoritarian government.

          You can not honestly whine about our system that brought Pax Americana to the world.

          • Bluejay2fly

            Globalization has done more for that end than US bullets and bombs. How many millions of Asians are dead because of the US. The US is also one of the largest Arms merchants. How many more millions of people were killed by despots using US, UK, or French weapons. Meanwhile back in America our nation has created a mindless, consumeristic society that uses so many natural resources that if these new democracies follow our example the planet would run out of resources in minutes. We should have stayed out of world affairs and worked on creating a sustainable and just society. Setting an example would have been the greater good.

          • stephenreal

            U.S. officials publicly predicted shortly after the fall of Phnom Penh that more than one million people would be killed by the Khmer Rouge. President Gerald Ford had warned of “an unbelievable horror story”. Modern research has located 20,000 mass graves from the Khmer Rouge era all over Cambodia. Various studies have estimated the death toll at between 740,000 and 3,000,000, most commonly between 1.7 million and 2.2 million, with perhaps half of those deaths being due to executions, and the rest from starvation and disease.

            The U.S. State department in 1976 estimated that there may have been a million killed in the land reform, and 800,000 killed in the counterrevolutionary campaign in China.

            Mao himself claimed that a total of 700,000 people were killed in attacks on “counter-revolutionaries” during the years 1950–52.

            Programs pursued during this time include the Hundred Flowers Campaign, in which Mao indicated his supposed willingness to consider different opinions about how China should be governed. Given the freedom to express themselves, liberal and intellectual Chinese began opposing the Communist Party and questioning its leadership. This was initially tolerated and encouraged. After a few months, Mao’s government reversed its policy and persecuted those, totalling perhaps 500,000

          • Bluejay2fly

            The thing you are forgetting is that these killings were committed by their own people. Do you think when the despots are ousted from power that miraculously the sanctity of life automatically appears. That is one problem in nation building. Also,since Vietnam at least 800,000 US citizens have murdered each other. Who are we to judge others. Should France send troops to LA when 1000 gang bangers a year were killing each other? Should Norway have sent soldiers to the American south during the heydays of lynching, peonage, and segregation? We owe it to ourselves to help America first. PS The evil Kmher Rouge was ousted by Communist Vietnam who lost millions of citizens and had 20 Million gallons of Toxic chemicals poured into their ecosystem during the Vietnam wars.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Fortran? Woohoo!

    It is the first step to TurboBasic, after all.

    • AC

      lol

    • hennorama

      TF – Fortran? For a second there I thought you were lending support to Pvt. Manning.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        When I was your age I used to dream of coding by using switches. We had to enter code by charging tiny magnets on a wire grid.

        (But, seriously, what’s the double-meaning of Fortran I’m missing?)

        • hennorama

          TF – OK, since you wrote “seriously”-

          Fortran = For tran

          There was a significant announcement from Pvt. Manning yesterday. As reported on theguardian.com:

          “The US soldier who was sentenced as Bradley Manning on Wednesday plans to undergo hormone therapy and has asked to be recognised as a woman.

          “In a statement on Thursday Manning said she would like to be known as Chelsea E Manning and be referred to by female pronouns.

          “As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me,” she wrote.

          “I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I hope that you will support me in this transition.”

          See:
          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/22/bradley-manning-woman-chelsea-gender-reassignment

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            “For Tran(sgendered people)”?

            Ahh.

            I have heard the news linked to.

            But I guess that back when I learned Fortran, the word “transgender” wasn’t even a lexicon thing, so combining the two in wordplay didn’t occur to me today.

          • hennorama

            TF – TYFYR.

            Of course, the reason puns and other wordplay work is due to our preconceptions about words. Coastghost had a good one already today, during this exchange:

            StilllHere − Where’s the red line this week?

            Coastghost − We’ll find out only as soon as Samantha Power delivers her read lines.

            BTW – my wordplay was not intended as any slight to Pvt. Manning.

            Aside – could it be that Pvt. Manning simply couldn’t afford the costs of transition, and thought releasing secure documents would be a way to accomplish the goal?

            My question is appropriately half-serious and half-humorous.

  • J P Fitzsimmons

    A better solution might be to cap the amount available to a student to encourage enrollment in schools with lower costs and a better 4-year record graduation record. Government might help with the ranking but students would be responsible for using the money optimally.

    • StilllHere

      Or universities/colleges could just give everyone a diploma whether they earned it or not.

      • jefe68

        Troll.

    • J__o__h__n

      Or stop subsidizing all private colleges and just put the money into state schools.

  • Emily4HL

    I know its hard and confusing, but use Chelsea. Or at least “Manning,” since that name has not changed.

    • Emily4HL

      Well said, caller!

  • Coastghost

    Bradley Manning is not male. Chelsea Manning is not female. The person in question can thus claim gender neutrality by identifying as “fruitcake”.

  • brian copeland

    How likely is it that the Syrian rebels tried to frame the Assad regime by using the chemical weapons themselves and making it look like the government had used them?

    • Bluejay2fly

      Very likely

      • J.C. Vorko

        The Assad regime’s response (i.e. “why would we launch a chemical attack at the same time that U.N. inspectors are touring other parts of the country”) at first glance seems convincing, shifting the blame for this cowardly act to the rebels.

        Yet perhaps the regime, realizing this fact would seem to implicate the rebels, went ahead and launched the attack, knowing they could hide behind the timing (not to mention the attention demanded by the latest violence in Egypt). This is the stance of the rebels and many Western leaders, as I understand it.

        Yet why stop there? Perhaps the rebels, realizing that there would be a certain amount of natural suspicion cast against anything the Regime says, went ahead and launched the attack—knowing that the international community would (most likely) follow the path of blame described above and suspect that the regime launched the attack with the idea of hiding behind the U.N. inspectors.

        We can go even further to suppose that the Regime, knowing that at least a handful of the most significant observers (i.e. Russia) would follow the trail of logic to this point, were actually responsible the attack—knowing they could feed such a story to their allies and, if not appear innocent to the media or external observers, at least introduce enough uncertainty to the situation to further clog and mire the international’s community’s decisions about military intervention.

        It’s turtles all the way down. A feint within a feint within a feint…

        Only those who launched the attack know the real truth, and they will pay for it one day, I suspect.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Seems like the most obvious scenario.
      Wonder how easy it is to dupe the USA?

  • Bluejay2fly

    A university with 20K students paying 40k a year takes in 800,000,000 Tuition is also not their only revenue streams. How realistic is this price? Sounds like they are raping the middle class.

    • tncanoeguy

      Many are not paying that price. A 20K student body sounds like a state school – the in-state folks would be paying much less. Students expect many more amenities these days. The dorm my daughter lives in is much nicer than the one I did 27 years ago, and the food is much better.

      • Bluejay2fly

        Some are paying less while many are paying more. The concept is this. Colleges costs IE Heat, Salaries, Etc are probably paid just by tuition for many universities (mostly private). These universities also get money from alumni, donations, maybe a federal grant, or returns on their general fund. These colleges are get away with overcharging because people get loans (1 Trillion and counting) and act as though it is not real money. I bet nowhere in your daughters colleges website or brochure is any kind of accounting. You do not know the profit margin. Rockefeller Center was land leased to the Rockefeller from Columbia University. How many Billions in assets do these univerities have?

  • nlpnt

    From what I understand, Manning is eligible for parole in around ten years (some sources say 12, others 9 – would it be 12 on paper minus three for time served?)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    “Everybody (in the military) gives you a crosseyed look as you’re an intelligence guy”, per caller Paul.

    This idea seems worth a show of its own.

  • Ari Miller-Sisson

    I think that there should be changes to the way that employers are allowed to make judgments against people who have college degrees. One thing here is the middle ground for people with non specialty degrees of either you are over-qualified or under-qualified. For people who are going to school now, it’s one thing to discuss how things can be adjusted for employment opportunities, but for everyone who has already gone through school and racked up their loans,and spent their money; done their time. Where are they left now?

  • http://commentaramapolitics.blogspot.com/ tryanmax

    Is there really a “right way” to disclose sensitive info? I’ve heard the assertion many times by now, as well as technical descriptions of procedure, but in practical terms, can it really happen “by the book” so to speak? It seems to me that, if something is particularly damning, the “right way” provides ample opportunity to quash its revelation.

    • stephenreal

      touche’!

    • HonestDebate1

      Yes, there is a procedure for whistle blowers.

      • http://commentaramapolitics.blogspot.com/ tryanmax

        I don’t think you’ve at all grasped the crux of my question. I understand that there exists a proper procedure, but is it effective to the job of getting the whistle blown? What examples do we have? It seems the only whistle blowers we ever know of are the ones who land in trouble for it. That lend strong credence to the idea that, when the info is embarrassing to the government, process in place doesn’t work.

        • HonestDebate1

          If you mean Manning and Snowden, they both went straight to the press which is not the way to do it. But you do have a point, those who cross Obama are doomed even if they are doing their job as Inspector General, ask Gerald Walprin.

  • stephenreal

    Another solid debate tom and friends. Quality thinking. really enjoyed it

    • Stephen706

      Why did they ignore DUNCAN, OKLAHOMA? Debate is no good when avoiding real issues–just like the “we are not going to talk about red lines crap” from the future Mrs Jay Carney…

      • stephenreal

        No one cares about Duncan. Who cares about the murder in mine or your back yard. Let’s keep it real dude.

        There’s is zero historical evident of white Europeans being enslaved by Africans in the South that lasted for hundreds of years. I could be mistaken of course.

        • StilllHere

          You appear to be a slave to your own ignorance. Man up, baby, stop whining.

          • stephenreal

            you’re not race baiting dude? what happen

          • StilllHere

            No homes, you’re the one with the race crutch. How’s that working for ya?

          • stephenreal

            It’s called winning elections friend

  • Wahoo_wa

    I wonder if Manning is just using the gender identity issue as a rouse because he is scared to go to jail as a man after his act of treason.

    • StilllHere

      Worth a try.

      • Wahoo_wa

        Funny that gender identity issues only became an issue after he was convicted isn’t it? I bet he doesn’t have many fans in a military prison.

        • Stephen706

          He will have many fans–he will also have many unexplained accidents (or one can only hope…)

    • Stephen706

      maybe… but also I wonder about his fraudulent enlistment if he had these feelings prior to enlisting (which he admitted in interviews)

    • OnPointComments

      I wonder if Bradley Manning’s announcement that he is “Chelsea Manning. I am a female” is a legal strategy. Announcing that he is transgendered will surely get him liberal support, and perhaps even a speech from President Obama saying that he “couldn’t be prouder of him.”

    • alsordi

      Hey Yahoo_wa,

      Its easy to accuse someone of treason, and to put a “support the troops and stars and stripes” decal on your truck. but Manning is a person, regardless of gender issues, that gave his life to help humanity.

      Manning sacrificed his life, to let the world and Americans alike know the crimes the USA is committing..

      You can hide your ignorance in food and entertainment but much of the world chooses to know the truth, and not to leave the TRUTH up to the criminal cronies you call political representatives.

      • Wahoo_wa

        He has been convicted by the court system. He has put many peoples’ lives in jeopardy. The ‘crimes’ that the USA is committing ensure your way of life. Enough said.

  • Coastghost

    NO, Tom Ashbrook: with his conviction Manning has been discharged dishonorably. He is no longer a private in the US Army, to my understanding.

    • Stephen706

      he is no longer in the army upon completion of his sentence

      • Coastghost

        Thanks for the clarification.

  • Stephen706

    All the headlines and not a single mention of the brutal MURDER in Duncan, OKLAHOMA?????

    Obama was quick to say Treyvon could have been his son (and that was pre-trial)… uh, where is he (or the bunch of idiot congressman who all wore hoodies) now–because you know what???–the three idiots could have been HIS SONS too!!!

    Silence

    • OnPointComments

      We’ve already had the blistering condemnation from Jesse Jackson that this type of brutality is “frowned upon.”

      • StilllHere

        Maybe they are all bipolar. Let’s give ‘em a pass.

        • stephenreal

          Would you like some cheese with that whine?

          • StilllHere

            ?
            I’ve got sympathy for real bipolar sufferers, not fakers.
            I love a good aged Gouda!

          • stephenreal

            Dude you come across like a big whiny baby. man up fella. Are you even a guy? My apologies if you are a lady.

          • StilllHere

            Who cares?

          • stephenreal

            Right dude. We finally agree. Who really cares?

          • Stephen706

            So you really think this is whining? really? You must be really out there or on your own set of drugs wearing your own set of rose colored glasses

        • Stephen706

          They are not bipolar… they are simply anti-social idiots who need to be removed from society… recidivism rates are so high at such a young age… they are already permanently damaged beyond logical repair

    • stephenreal

      And people get shot all the time in my town. Why are you so special? you really think you’re the only one? Really dude? Give it up you big baby.

      • Stephen706

        I ain’t special at all… but I have to surmise you never served, never deployed, and never have given two cents about any one else other than yourself… Man up! Sign up! Go deploy and get shot at for a while defending others–maybe you will get it

        Why does this matter? Because it is so obviously wrong and you even in your tiniest of brains shold recognize it.

        • stephenreal

          Really? Your psychic abilities need a serious re-tune buddy.

          There’s is zero historical evident of white Europeans being enslaved by Africans in the South that lasted for hundreds of years. I could be mistaken of course.

          • Stephen706

            Have you forgotten wear the ancient Egyptians got their slaves during their empire?

          • stephenreal

            The so-called Hebrews were paid by the Egyptian in their historical records to guard the northeast passage from invasion.

            Public works projects were all hired skilled labor organized by the Egyptian state.

          • Stephen706

            Uh not quite, thank you for playing and try again in history class… the Hebrews along the conquered lands around the Mediterranean all had people brought to and enslaved in to serve the egyptians while in power…

          • J__o__h__n

            No historical evidence has been found.

          • Stephen706

            you can start with the old testament and Talmud and go from there

          • J__o__h__n

            They aren’t history.

          • Stephen706

            Actually go talk to any rabbi or a true theologian about the historical relevance of these and other documents… these are the basis of ancient history along with relics and artifacts. It’s not like people left diaries

          • J__o__h__n

            Legends and myths are not enough to establish historical proof.

          • stephenreal

            the telephone game history

          • stephenreal

            prove it.

          • Stephen706

            Seriously? And like ancient enslavement or even recent (150 year ago) enslavement really matters in view of heinous crimes of present day? Add the beating robbery-murderby two more thugs of an 88-year old WW2 vet.
            Societal decay and breakdown. That was my purpose for posting is to garner attention to the not politically correct when the situation is more clear than all the attention and nonsense that was given to the Martin-Zimmerman debacle. Yes, it took a life of its own and ramped up out of control yet something more obvious and atrocious barely gets comment.
            Have a great weekend

          • stephenreal

            Well I am glad you do agree that historical context does matter. While race baiting on other hand is for the weak of mind.

        • jimino

          Why does your having been in the military, voluntarily of course, have anything to do with whether this murder should be more widely discussed than any other murder?

          • Stephen706

            Because if you live in your own little shell of a world where you care absolutely about nothing beyond your tiny sphere makes you numb and naive… if you have been a public servant in any capacity with service to others because that’s the job–then you begin to see… whether military or government service or fire or police or guard or peace corps or mission work… you just might see how depraved this crime is–what makes the chemical deaths in Syria–a country most have never even seen or heard of or can find on a map much less been to– more important that the actions of these 3 youths and what it says about our society?

            The Syrian Civil war is way outside our lives but a local teen being bored picking you out to shoot or beat or maim out of boredom just because should be an issue of concern for anyone

          • jimino

            Believe me, I am very concerned with such acts, whether it’s bored punks in Oklahoma or an out-of-control military member in Afghanistan like Bales. Or, just here in my city this past week, the person who killed the mother of 3 and left her body in a suburban street, and the boyfriend who killed his girlfriend and stuck her in an open grave the other night. Why aren’t all of these on today’s show too? Don’t you feel for them?

    • StilllHere

      Appears it could have been a hate crime judging from one of the perps racist tweets.
      Where is the media?

      • stephenreal

        For one redneck murder? Where’s the media in my neighborhood? Damn fellas. You are a bunch of whiny babies. really fellas?

        • StilllHere

          Probably too scared to work in a warzone.
          In this case the hillbillies did the killin’.

          • stephenreal

            So who cares? Is this your first murder?
            Are you a sissy girl or something like that?
            Or just a coward as your post projects.

          • StilllHere

            Everyone should. Yes.

          • stephenreal

            But no one does. Like no one cares about the murders in my neighborhood.

          • StilllHere

            Everyone should.

          • stephenreal

            There’s is zero historical evident of white Europeans being enslaved by Africans in the South that lasted for hundreds of years. I could be mistaken of course.

          • J__o__h__n

            Have you checked the latest history textbooks ordered by Texas?

          • stephenreal

            Thank God the printed media is dead. Let science reign over dullness.

          • StilllHere

            Too whiny dude. Are you a girl?

          • stephenreal

            Poor man has a tiny wanker. Needs his whiteness to make for small things.

          • StilllHere

            Hopefully you’re a girl, maybe just gay. Either way, stop obsessing about whether I’ve got a wanker or not. Man up, you big baby, homes.

          • stephenreal

            gosh you be simple

          • StilllHere

            Gosh, you be dumb cry baby whiner. Your failures are your own responsibility. I’m sorry your life has been such a waste, but that’s on you homes.

        • Stephen706

          These three created an INTERNATIONAL incident in one act of boredom and stupidity… and went out and randomly hunted someone to kill out of boredom!!!

          Treyvon and George Z incident, which was a bad outcome from two idiots, drew the attention of folks for TWO years with Congressman and even the President making commentary earlier on… why because they were all black on thought this was a BS racially motivated event… yet here is a bloody obvious RACIALLY motivated event and not a single word!!

          That’s the difference… and the 22 yo was not a hillbilly but a baseball player and college student from Australia

          • stephenreal

            So what? Nobody cares about one murder case that has no interest to nobody except you homes. Your ego is out large for the public realities.

          • Stephen706

            So if 3 dudes go out and randomly hunt you down or one of your family, no big deal? no care? no concern? no outrage… just life, move on… callously pathologically cold

          • jimino

            Why is it worthy of discussion as national or world news any more than scores of other similar murders. Is it only because he’s Australian?

          • stephenreal

            No because he is a white man.

          • StilllHere

            Maybe it’s the historical context of hundreds of years of black on white crime?

          • Stephen706

            Not only because of being Australian and affecting trade and tourism but because of the overt callous heinous act which gets to the heart of what’s wrong with society…

            Why was Jeffrey Dahmer news? Or Son of Sam? Or the DC Sniper? Or Newtown? Or Columbine? Or Aurora? Why does Syria or any of this matter??? It is the bizarre heinousness of the crime…

            In this case, 3 youths are bored and go out to hunt down a shoot a random jogger in the back to allow him to die…

            If that doesn’t send chills, then why are we spending 20 minutes on Syria and the chemical attack…

          • StilllHere

            You fail to see the potential subtext here, generations of black on white hate crime.

          • stephenreal

            You fail to learn the historical context if not legal precedent.

          • StilllHere

            Man up homes. The only history that matters here is the history of black on white crime driven by racial hatred and borne out of ignorance.

      • jimino

        What’s a “hate crime”?

    • http://onpoint.wbur.org/about-on-point/sam-gale-rosen Sam Gale Rosen

      For what it’s worth, this was actually mentioned on the show…

      • StilllHere

        It needs it’s own show, maybe multiple hours, so we can reflect and draw the bigger lessons. Will you do this?

        • jimino

          What do you believe are the “bigger lessons” to be learned?

          • StilllHere

            I think we need hours of discussion to figure that out.

          • jimino

            I see, you don’t really have any actual ideas, just snarky comments to add. If you do, go ahead and start the discussion.

          • StilllHere

            Wow, it seems way too early to be drawing conclusions. That would be like Tom saying that Sarah was responsible for Tucson within hours of it’s occurrence. Or you concluding Zimmerman’s guilt without knowing any of the facts. Hey, but maybe that’s your agenda. It’d be snarky if I called you an ignorant fool with an ignorant agenda, right?

      • HonestDebate1

        I checked and it actually took a few weeks after the Trayvon murder for the issue to be raised in the headlines on OP. This incident is only days old. In that sense maybe we or, speaking only for myself, I am being a bit unfair. But I can’t apologize. The relentless coverage of the Trayvon Martin murder and specifically the spin off shows on race when race was not a factor is the bed OP made.

        I am a long time listener and fan of OP but I do not recall any shows regarding black on black crime or shows on gang violence in Chicago and elsewhere. I don’t remember any shows on the horrible state of the nuclear family and the consequences that have come to bear especially in the black community. These are serious problems. I really think this should be addressed but that’s not my decision.

        • stephenreal

          Or the racial bias records of stop and frisk and other persecutions of the colored community by law enforcement where no one has done nothing to be harassed about.

          • HonestDebate1

            Yea, but that got fixed.

          • StilllHere

            Sounds like whining. Man up.

          • jefe68

            I bet if you met any black person in person you would not have the guts to say any of the garbage you’re spewing on this forum.
            Speaking of manning up you’re a coward.

      • Coastghost

        What an interesting forum full of relevant and insightful comments you have helped shape today, Sam!
        Has NPR actually received any legal advice that pre-moderation in no way can be said to constitute prior restraint? Would be happy to see the opinion posted on WBUR’s homepage.

      • StilllHere

        Are you going to do a couple shows on this topic?
        If not, why not?
        Why is it less important than the Zimmerman self-defense incident?

    • hennorama

      Stephen706 – are you willfully blind, or simply ignorant?

      One of the alleged offenders in the senseless death of Christopher Lane is white, and two are black. Unless of course you perceive the white person as “White Black.”

      The race of the alleged offenders was erroneously reported from the start.

      See:

      http://www.mediaite.com/online/fox-and-friends-daily-caller-falsely-report-3-black-teens-arrested-in-chris-lane-murder/

      • StilllHere

        Are you willfully ignorant? The trigger-puller wasn’t white. The guy with the racist tweets wasn’t white. The guy who tweeted he was gonna kill somebody wasn’t white.

        • hennorama

          StilllHere – TY for your response.

          For the sake of argument, let’s assume all of what you wrote is true. Why do you feel it’s important?

          Do you think this case would have gotten as much attention as it has if the alleged offenders were correctly identified from the start?

          What about the fact that both the prosecutor and the Police Chief said the victim was chosen at random?:

          The prosecutor “said the three teens, from the grittier part of town, chose Lane at random…,” and foxnews.com reported that “Police Chief Dan Ford said Lane appeared to have been chosen at random…”

          See:
          http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=213705095
          http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/21/police-say-teen-shot-australian-student-in-oklahoma-for-fun-it/

          • StilllHere

            Yes.
            A random white guy.
            It’s an international incident. Australian authorities are warning tourists against visiting the US.

          • hennorama

            StilllHere – if those are your answers to my questions, would you mind indicating which answer goes with which question?

          • OnPointComments

            I think we should all withhold judgment on the reason for the murder of Chris Lane until the DOJ has set up a tip line to ferret out the real reason, and the DOJ has finished its own investigation.

            Oops, the victim was white. Never mind.

      • Stephen706

        One is mixed–with a white mother and black father… just like Obama… the other two are black…

        Obama drew the discussion of race into life when he so eloquently quipped that Treyvon could have been his son… newsflash–so could these three youths yet he is silent on the topic despite the uproar from one of our closest Allies, Australia…

    • OnPointComments

      Maybe we should take advice from Time:

      “DON’T IGNORE RACE IN CHRISTOPHER LANE’S MURDER”

      “The association of young black men with violence doesn’t come out of thin air”

      http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/22/viewpoint-dont-ignore-race-in-christopher-lanes-murder/

      Excerpt:

      The right is complaining that the media is making nothing of the fact that two of the teens were black whereas Lane was white, as opposed to the massive alarm sounded in cases such as white (or white-ish) George Zimmerman killing black Trayvon Martin.

      The numbers don’t lie: young black men do commit about 50% of the murders in the U.S. … So, it’s just fake to pretend that the association of young black men with violence comes out of thin air. Young black men murder 14 times more than young white men. If the kinds of things I just mentioned were regularly done by whites, it’d be trumpeted as justification for being scared to death of them.

  • Kate

    From the comments and the remark about “obvious psychological problems” by one of the guests, I gather On Point needs to do a show on the topic of transgendered people.

    Cynical, lazy, and mean to think someone would come out as trans just to avoid “male prison.” 35 years is 35 years, regardless of where it’s served.

    • OnPointComments

      Manning is eligible for parole in seven years, so it may be that 35 years is 7 years, regardless of where it’s served.

  • stephenreal

    It would not surprise me to see a Western attack on Syria if this trend line continues on this pace in the next 6 months or so.

    • Stephen706

      no one has the balls to stand up… it will be all talk and bluster

      • stephenreal

        That’s how the debate went down in Libya may I remind you. Too early to predict but gas is a horrible way to die. You got read the WW1 accounts on gas to get a good appreciation for horror of it all.

        • Stephen706

          Done more the read… trained and served… many a days of MOPP wear… administration has no cojones

          • stephenreal

            Well I hope you’re off the government dole now.

        • Bluejay2fly

          Ask those people in Dresdon if burning to death was much better.

          • stephenreal

            Operation Downfall was the codename for the Allied plan for the invasion of Japan, because of its predictable wind patterns and several other factors, Japan was particularly vulnerable to gas attacks. Such attacks would neutralize the Japanese tendency to fight from caves, which would increase the soldiers’ exposure to gas.

            We planned on gassing the whole island at one time.

  • JBSpurr

    My thanks to Jack Beatty for his invaluable presence on On Point: always thoughtful and articulate on complex matters. Today, in reference to the Bradley Manning sentence all we need do is compare his response with the utterly cluelessness of Ramesh (who needs to know his last name), who can only muster “It is what it is.” As Beatty says, “We do not want to pathologize this.” YES! Manning was ”exercising his conscience and citizenship. “ YES! These are moral matters, critical questions dealing with the relationship of the US government with the citizens in whose name it acts, and its impact on the world. Manning did us all a great service. We do not have to consider him a “hero” (a much overused concept these days), but we can thank him, and hope that Obama sees the light — eventually — and pardons him or
    reduces his sentence dramatically.

    • brettearle

      I would wager that men and women in Manning’s position, are not always privy to the entire spectrum of implications–for any information that would be revealed by these men and women becoming potential whistle blowers.

      Manning’s ultimate problem was not whether he was a hero, super patriot, traitor, or whistle blower, or attention-seeker.

      His PROBLEM is that he was NOT in a position to discriminate as to what classified material could TRULY BE or NOT TRULY BE deleterious to American Security.

      I challenge you to claim, otherwise.

      We all want our Government to “come clean”. But whether you, or I, like it or not, there are some things that MUST and NEED to remain classified….regardless of our political views on privacy, security, secrecy, free speech, balance of powers, and the public’s legal right to know.

      :Like someone in AA–the wisdom to know the difference as to what you can change or not change–you must have the wisdom to KNOW the difference between what

      IS dangerous to be revealed and what is NOT dangerous to be revealed.

      I doubt VERY, VERY seriously that young, inexperienced PFC Manning was in that position.

      • JBSpurr

        The invasion of Iraq demonstrated the consequences of government propaganda and disinformation, and pervasive lack of transparency. Bradley Manning was one of countless young Americans called to “serve” by an essential misprision of reality induced by this lack of knowledge and understanding. He was one of those who saw through it by virtue of his particular role in the military. Was he in a perfect position to judge? Of course not. Are those in power ever likely to make the distinctions you ask for? Of course not. They have been on a mad mission for years to classify everything possible, making a mockery of the very idea of classification and exalting secrecy over the right of the American people to know what is going on in their name. Manning was an imperfect vehicle, but he struck a blow for all of us, revealing much that we should have known but could only suspect. Oddly, his actions also revealed that many foreign service officers were knowledgeable and sensible professionals, whose sound advice was often ignored in Washington. I, for one, am glad he acted. When the government itself makes sensible distinctions regarding what it actually needs to know about American citizens and others, and what really needs to be secret, your arguments will hold more water.

        • brettearle

          You and I have no understanding as to the level of mistrust and danger that might arise from what has happened, from the repercussions of the potential Manning fiasco.

          IF there were a whistle-blower who is in a position to judge then LET HIM BLOW THE WHISTLE to his heart’s content.

          I’d be the FIRST one to salute him.

          But for you to concede that classified information cannot often be subjected to such scrutiny and discrimination–while at the same time supporting such irresponsible behavior–is highly irresponsible in itself.

          Highly irresponsible.

          The act of defying the malicious or illegal secrecy of Government IS heroic.

          The act of potentially overreaching and divulging secrets or information that might be destructive to the SECURITY AND INTEGRITY OF THIS COUNTRY–WITHOUT ACTUALLY KNOWING WHETHER THAT INFORMATION IS SO DESTRUCTIVE–is a HORRIBLE AND UGLY DOUBLE STANDARD.

          I could cite any number of examples, on this forum and other places, where I am huge supporter of individual privacy rights and a general supporter of government transparency.

          I deplored McCarthyism and I deplore the kind of McCarthyism that has been ascribed to Islam–if only with regard to the hysteria, by some, for example, generated by the President’s middle name.

          I think it is an outrage if our emails and our phone calls are being monitored or tracked–with or without actual transcription or recording….unless there is something close to probable cause and/or sanctioned and thoroughly vetted by a bipartisan/objective FISA Court(s).

          Go ahead and hang your Left Wing Ellsberg-ian principles to Manning if you like.

          But YOU are doing it–WITHOUT ANY SORT OF REASONABLE POLITICAL INTEGRITY WHATSOEVER.

          Ellsberg, Snowden, and Manning can be readily contrasted.

          You simply wish to paint a broad brush–because of your so-called beliefs in certain Truths about the way we OUGHT to do things.

          You can’t, and you WON’T, treat EACH CASE INDIVIDUALLY.

          Why?

          Because of your own idiosyncratic, self-righteous views.

          You remind me of some of the jurors who exonerated OJ Simpson, by exercising the principle of Jury Nullification.

          • fun bobby

            so its his fault for revealing the things that were wrong that we did? not our fault for doing the wrong things and then trying to cover them up?

          • brettearle

            Are YOU in a position to say what is WRONG that we did–as opposed to how we might have become compromised by some information being divulged?

            Are you in a position to say that what we did was wrong–without knowing all factors that went into certain decisions?

            Are you?

            Cite examples of what you think was WRONG and why–or your questions only twist in the wind

            You are so biased in one direction–about your perception of Government–that you can’t see the sophistication and the subtlety in NEEDING TO KNOW THE IMPLICATIONS, of some, of what is revealed…..

          • fun bobby

            I wish all Americans knew the content of all the things that have and have not been leaked. All I know is what’s been reported in the media. it seems like a lot of the secrets are more to do with dirty shenanigans than things like troop positions. manning leaked things like killings that were covered up. Those things should not be secret in a free open and accountable society. you seem to think something has been revealed that should not be known to the American people. what exactly is that?

  • stephenreal

    Did Africans enslave white Europeans in the Southern states for hundreds of years or am I completely wrong about that?

    • StilllHere

      Dude, who cares about what may or may not have happened two hundred years ago? Man up, live in the present, stop coming up with excuses for your failures.

      You sound like a whiny baby. Want some cheese?

      • stephenreal

        Oh yes so why are you so focused on Duncan if it where not so relevant?

        • StilllHere

          ?
          It’s the present, dude.

          • stephenreal

            Why do you care if not compared to the historical persecution of the colored people and the Treyvon Martin case?

          • StilllHere

            Martin, sure, that’s timely, and an important comparison.
            The other stuff, not so much. Too whiny.

          • stephenreal

            Well you understand the historical context of slavery and Treyvon Martin or is the legacy and complexity of slavery not your thing?

          • StilllHere

            Slavery is over dude. It has no context in the present day. Martin wasn’t the Hispanic guy’s slave and the Hispanic guy wasn’t Martin’s slave. It’s not all that complex, you should stop whining about it.

          • stephenreal

            But you’re whole argument is predicated on slavery.
            You are not that reeeetarded are dumb dumb?

          • StilllHere

            Sorry dude, you’re the one making pathetic references to slavery which may or may not have occurred and if it did, would have no application here anyway. Are you a whiny girl, homes?

          • jefe68

            You deny that 500 years of slavery happened in this country? Followed a 100 hundred years of extreme oppression afterwards?

            You are a poor excuse for a human being.
            I was wrong about you. Troll is to nice a term for the likes of you.

          • jefe68

            troll.

      • hypocracy1

        Yeah, blacks have had equal rights for almost 50 years now.. FIFTY!! That’s almost one life-time… It’s time to start pulling yourselves up by your bootstraps. Didn’t you get the memo? The supreme court said racism is dead.

      • jefe68

        Typical, a white entitled male being a jerk online.

    • fun bobby

      according to an WBUR article from a few months back you are correct although I don’t know if it lasted quite as long as their ownership of other Africans and Europeans ownership of Africans

  • Coastghost

    A show or two devoted to the modeling of censorship (aka “moderation”) by NPR, WBUR, and “On Point” might be welcome, too.
    While censorship technically forestalls publication of comments, contemporary practice of “pre-moderation” of solicited comments cannot be readily distinguished due to the temporal capabilities of modern software: the resulting inhibition of public discourse, esp. when it occurs under the auspices of a Federally-funded broadcaster, is thoroughly reprehensible.
    Public broadcast moderators are now equipped with so much leeway, they are free to dispose of commentary they simply don’t like, and those subjective or arbitrary or aesthetic standards do not serve the celebration of free speech that NPR, et al., ostensibly exists to preserve.

    • brettearle

      Is there a Media outlet–anywhere–that doesn’t filter reports and opinions?

      • Coastghost

        Couldn’t say: but no other was mandated by an act of Congress with the imprimatur of fostering public debate, and I doubt any other receives quite the level of direct Federal, state, and local funding that CPB/NPR, et al., receive.

        • brettearle

          Fine.

          Use the stickler of Public Air Waves as a point–which I anticipated you would do.

          But go ahead and ignore the moronic quote, “Fair and Balanced”.

          The obvious point is that all Media outlets, who profess integrity, are guilty.

          Nevertheless, when there are issues to be debated, NOWHERE BUT ON NPR [On Point} AND ON PBS [The News Hour] are there TYPICALLY, most often, both sides of the issues–with guests, from both sides, making appearances.

          NOWHERE else as frequently.

          • Coastghost

            Only if the moderator permits can I suggest an emendation to Shakespeare:
            “what’s censorship? what’s called ‘prior restraint’/by any other name would smell as sweet”.
            It even scans, however imperfectly.
            (Frankly, I think I eschew FoxNews far more assiduously than you do, living as I do in a TV-free zone.)

          • J__o__h__n

            That sounds as Shakespearean as coining refudiate.

    • J__o__h__n

      I’ve found the npr.org censorship to be arbitrary. Some things that I didn’t even think twice about posting were censored and some things that I wrote thinking I doubt this will make it past the censor were posted.

      • Coastghost

        Yeh, just as Marlow and Willard observed in their respective treks: “Method, sound or unsound? I see no method.”

    • TomK_in_Boston

      I’m sick of all the far right propaganda too. Guess I can’t complain, since gvt funding has been cut so much that NPR is now essentially privatized, as with so many of our once-great institutions.

      Hey, when did you hear faux news report that 99% of climate scientists agree that we’re creating a disaster for our kids by pumping CO2 int the atmosphere? Date and time, please.

      • Coastghost

        I’m willing to concede that a public broadcast network taking over $450 million annually from the Federal government alone makes a good buy for an outfit dabbling in the suppression and stifling of free speech. (What a sinkhole of liberty Boston looks to’ve become.)

        I publicly invite CPB, NPR, and WBUR to hire at least one attorney to examine whether pre-moderation in forums where public opinion is solicited can or under what circumstances plausibly could be construed as prior restraint. Technology may be posing a steeplechase for public broadcasting somewhat akin to what has befallen our intelligence agencies.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          As i walk through crowds of tourists from all over the world heading to our booming waterfront, thanks to the Big Dig, for a sail on our beautiful clean harbor, thanks to federal $, I’ll just have to keep reminding myself that I live in a sinkhole according to the angry and confused.

    • hennorama

      Coastghost – well said.

      I’m struck by the coincident juxtaposition of your comment, and the willfully deaf, blind, and mute monkeys in the illustration just above it.

      Keep pounding away on this topic. Again, well said, and well done.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    We should all be grateful to Manning, Snowden, and Greenwald. They have done important, courageous work. I wish there were more like them.

    • Coastghost

      Yes, they deserve a Rushmore-style memorial in the Berkshires. (But don’t neglect the brave Hero of the Ecuadoran embassy.)

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Hey, are we gonna cut off aid to General Dynamics? …..oops, I mean to Egypt.

  • Julia P

    I listen everyday, love your show.
    I waited with bated breath to hear more about the Fukushima disaster, I hope you will cover it in depth soon.

  • JBSpurr

    Since you choose to indulge in a discourse of outrage and personal attack, you cannot be reasoned with so this “discussion” will end here for others to judge. I will only say that Snowden was by far the more experienced and discriminating in what he leaked, and had pondered his actions and their purposes more thoroughly — and has been able to articulate them in a more profound and interesting way — but much that Manning leaked was essentially historical, and, as numerous commentators have pointed out, the principal consequence beyond the essential good of illuminating past bad acting by our government and its representatives, has been to cause embarrassment. The US will get over that.

    • brettearle

      There is a difference between personal attack and impugning someone’s ideology.

      You have needed to accuse me of personal attack–because you are unable to reconcile the problems I have pointed out–having to do with your beliefs on Policy and Public Discourse.

      Normally, this sort of false accusation–such as yours–arrives when that person–who has leveled the false accusation– has run out of Ammo.

      At least you admit that Manning’s actions were less responsible than Snowden’s–which, in itself, is a de facto admission that Manning, very likely, DIDN’T KNOW THE POSSIBLE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HE WAS DOING.

      These so-called “numerous commentators” that you identify have precious little inside information, as well, to know how deleterious Manning’s actions actually were.

      And, public-official Democrats have spoken out against Manning’s actions.

      I would be very surprised, indeed, if these officials didn’t respect Free Speech, Privacy Rights, and Government Transparency–when and where appropriate.

  • olderworker

    Re: President Obama’s idea about ranking colleges for value provided — I believe U.S. News and World Report already does that, in one of their guides to colleges.

    • fun bobby

      it does seem like a particularly unspectacular solution

      • olderworker

        Well, I think it’s worthwhile to point students in the direction of schools that will give them the greatest value for dollars spent — it’s just that we don’t need another government program to do so, since it’s already being done. (And normally, I am not one to dismiss government programs — I happen to think the V.A. Health system is run very well, as is Medicare, but in this case, it would be redundant).

    • StilllHere

      Somebody, maybe Rolling Stone, does a Best Party Schools ranking. This seems an equally appropriate determiner of whether a school should get federal subsidies.

    • ExcellentNews

      Yeah, just like Moody and the like “rating agencies” gave AAA ratings to CMOs … (junk derivatives based on junk mortgages and peddled by Wall). I totally trust the product reviews of the corporate-owned media…

  • hennorama

    Much has been made of the horrendous, cowardly, and indefensible killing of Christopher Lane in On Point forums the past couple of days.

    I’m curious about a few of things, and am inviting everyone and anyone, and especially those who’ve commented about this case, to answer three questions:

    1. How and when did you first learn of this case? If you have a specific source, please cite it.

    2. Was the race of the victims and the alleged offenders mentioned, and if it was, how were the victim and alleged offenders identified? For example, did the source say the victim was Asian, the offenders were American Indian, etc.?

    3. Did the source mention the Trayvon Martin case?

    I’ll start.

    1. I heard/viewed a brief report on ESPN sometime on the evening of Wed. Aug. 21, 2013.

    2. Keywords/phrase that I recall: Australian, baseball player, broad daylight, three teens arrested, said they were “bored.” The victim’s race was apparent from the photos shown. The alleged offenders’ were not pictured or otherwise identified, except that they were teenagers.

    3. No mention of the Trayvon Martin case was made.

    Thank you all in advance for your candid answers.

    • OnPointComments

      I don’t remember which news source I saw first, but it was likely a top feed on Google News. It had a picture of Lane and identified him as Australian, no pictures of the offenders, and did not mention race. There was no mention of the Trayvon Martin.

      • hennorama

        OPC – TYFYR. Please encourage others to do so as well, if possible.

  • Smokey Forester

    Sorry, but I think none of you were “on point” in your discussion of Manning and Snowden today.

    How can one discuss and debate what is a secret?

    These two brave people have essentially given their lives so that we can know what our government is doing. Obama has said he wants to use this leaked knowledge to explain our government’s actions to us. Well, that wouldn’t be happening without the leaks.

    Jack Beatty came closest to recognizing Manning and Snowden’s contributions, but none of you recognized the importance of what they did.

    The real debate needs to be about too much secrecy. Not much of what has come out has been a big surprise to anyone. The big revelation has been the confirmation. If everyone pretty much knows these things are going on, why are they secret? I understand governments need some secrecy, but we have way too much. Most secrecy is just a way to hide things officials are ashamed to admit.

    • fun bobby

      yes if our actions are on the up and up there is no need to lie or have secrets. I don’t know how we are supposed to be in a trusting relationship when they have secrets and lie.

    • brettearle

      Nobody here–including you–is in a position to judge how much of our country’s security has been compromised by Bradley Manning’s actions.

      Especially, I would argue, was Bradley Manning in any position to judge either.

      You absolutely do NOT know.

      Nor do you seem to care, whether you know or not, as to how much of our security might be compromised.

      It is because you simply have one mind about it.

      No matter what.

      You are unwilling to see more than one side–because of your adamant political views about what `Government’ means to you; or how you think Government ought to be.

      It does not seem to matter, to you, what the possible (not definite) truth might be.

      • fun bobby

        what a fool! he must still think we are a government of by and for the people.

      • ExcellentNews

        Yeah, we the peons do not know, need not know, and should not know… Back to your tenements and sweatshops now!!!

        • brettearle

          I am talking about information that would compromise us, before our adversaries.

          I am not talking about information that we would like to know.

          It isn’t anybody else’s fault, other than yours, NOT to have the wisdom to know the difference.

          Any President in office, from either major party, would feel this way.

          So do many public officials from both parties.

          And it ISN’T because they necessarily want to keep US in the dark.

          It is because they wish to keep the country’s ADVERSARIES in the dark.

          I doubt very, very much that PFC Manning had the wisdom and the knowledge to KNOW the difference.

          THAT is the point.

          • ExcellentNews

            Let’s keep our adversaries even more in the dark by dispensing with elections and public government. We don’t have the wisdom and knowledge to chose our rulers anyway…

          • ExcellentNews

            … on a more serious and relevant note – Manning did not reveal anything that helps our adversaries. He did reveal a lot of idiocy and abuse on the taxpayer dime.

          • brettearle

            Explain how you know that.

            You can’t explain how you know that.

            Why?

            Because if you did know it, you could explain it.

            And you don’t know it.

            If you did know it, you could prove it.

            And you can’t prove it.

            If you can prove it,

            then…..prove…..it.

            If you answer my comment, which is doubtful, it will be an answer that will deflect AWAY from actually SHOWING how you know that Manning didn’t compromise National Security.

            Because you have NOTHING to show.

            What’s more, the GREATER point is that even if Manning didn’t compromise national security, at the time, Manning DID NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS GOING TO COMPROMISE NATIONAL SECURITY.

            That is even the HIGHER point.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Exactly. The rightys here just don’t want to know. Funny how they hate big gub’mint unless it’s spying on us. Hard to understand.

      • HonestDebate1

        Mr. Conflation, one can like gub’mint but not like a big gub’mint. One can also not like an overreaching gub’mint, big or small.

        Hope that helps.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          But you sure love the NSA. If you had any real principles, smoke wd be coming out of your ears.

          • HonestDebate1

            Where do you get this stuff? Please don’t tell me what I think.

          • jefe68

            Then stop telling others what they think.

          • HonestDebate1

            I never do, i don’t have to. I prefer honest debate.

  • hennorama

    The District Attorney in the Christopher Lane case announced that “The evidence is insufficient to establish that race was the primary motive in the murder of Christopher Lane.”

    FTA:

    August 23, 2013
    DA: Hate crime not applicable in drive-by shooting
    Mike Smith
    The Duncan Banner

    “DUNCAN — Stephens County District Attorney Jason Hicks said Friday that there is no evidence that Christopher Lane of Australia was fatally shot because he was white or because he was from a foreign country.

    “Because of that, and because the three teenagers accused in his death face felony charges that could put them in prison for decades or life, seeking a hate-crime charge makes no sense, Hicks said. Hate crime in Oklahoma is a misdemeanor.

    “Hicks acknowledged that social media postings allegedly made by some of the accused teens appear racial in nature.

    “But, he said, “The evidence is insufficient to establish that race was the primary motive in the murder of Christopher Lane.”

    See:
    http://duncanbanner.com/local/x865761251/DA-Hate-crime-not-applicable-in-drive-by-shooting

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Eric Holder is certain to call on the FBI to launch an investigation to see if Federal charges are warranted since one of the suspects posted racist comments right before the crime. Right?

      • hennorama

        WftC – TYFYR.

        First of all, why do you ask this question?

        My response: That is of course beyond unlikely, as there are no known issues surrounding the way either the police or the DA have handled this case.

        TY for your response. I look forward to your reply.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Good evening hennorama.

          Isn’t it obvious?

          Holder called on an investigation of Zimmerman to see if Federal charges were warranted. Zimmerman was the suspect in the Martin case. The only evidence that Zimmerman was racist was a 911 tape doctored by NBC news to make him look racist. By the time Holder called for an investigation the NBC tape was debunked and the producer fired.

          However there is a huge difference between the two cases. In the Zimerrman case the race hustlers were out for blood. The Lane case the response from the race hustlers — crickets.

          • HonestDebate1

            You of course are right to keep the focus on the real scandal. In my view hate crime laws are stupid. Murder is murder. The victim is just as dead either way.

          • jefe68

            In your view hate crime laws are stupid.
            Wow, you are one messed up white guy.

          • HonestDebate1

            Self defense or accidents aside, murder is the ultimate expression of hate. A stupid law doesn’t change that.

            Assuming I’m white, what does my race have to do with anything?

          • jefe68

            Your race and experience is defining the lens through which you make comments.
            Only a white guy could make such an asinine comment.

            No the law does not change the action.
            Acknowledging the type of crime and the context of the crime does matter.

            Do you believe in war crimes or crimes against humanity?

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll tell that tp Freddie when I see him in a bit. He thinks they are stupid too, how insulting can you be?

          • StilllHere

            He doesn’t even recognize his own racism. Sad.

          • HonestDebate1

            And he cloaks it in compassion which is even sadder.

          • jefe68

            Oh boy. You know what’s sad is your level of ignorance. I’m not the one obsessing about black on white violence. I’m not the who posts reams of racially charged diatribes. You are. When anyone responds to your BS you and your sidekick here, still-an-a’hole, make these derogatory remarks. When they get heaped back at you you get all pissy and start in with the reverse racist crap.

            What a sad little man you are.

          • HonestDebate1

            If that’s the way you feel then quit judging by the color of skin and go with the content of character. That’s the way I roll, it’s easy.

          • jefe68

            You can say what you want. The problem is you keep posting a lot of diatribes about blacks that are questionable in substance, if they had any at all. Then you act all warm and cuddly when you wax on about your black friend who plays in some bad you’re in. As if it’s OK to post all this garbage and then make out that it’s not about you, when it clearly is.

            Then you use words like “race hustler”, which is a new buzz word that’s now being used in right wing blogs.

            The only hustler here is you buddy.

          • jefe68

            This from the guy who posted that slavery may or may not have happened.
            My racism, you have a lot of nerve troll.

          • jefe68

            So your friend thinks hate crime laws are stupid as well. And he happens to be African American. Interesting.
            Well he’s entitled to his opinion but in light of the history of those types of crimes that were committed against blacks in the South I wonder how he came to that conclusion.

          • HonestDebate1

            He’s not from Africa, he’s from Boone. He’s black. He did a great job last night and it was a privilege to work with him again. His mother even came and that’s the first time I’ve seen her since his dad’s funeral over a decade ago. She boogied down. A good time was had by all. I rarely say this but I sincerely love that man.

            ….what were we talking about?

          • jefe68

            That you’re a troll.

          • OnPointComments

            In my opinion, Holder’s actions are worse than you stated. Before the trial, he had the FBI investigate Zimmerman, and it found no evidence of racism or a hate crime. Zimmerman was tried and found not guilty. After the verdict, Holder set up a tip line to troll for evidence of a hate crime. It’s difficult for the Department of Justice to maintain any semblance of impartiality when it has met with Martin’s parents and race hustler Al Sharpton; difficult, but not surprising, since former DOJ officials have stated that the DOJ doesn’t have an interest in race-neutral enforcement of the law.

            Why ask the question about an FBI investigation in the Lane murder? Because it’s the standard that the DOJ set in the Martin killing. And there’s certainly more evidence of racist statements in the Lane case than there ever was in the Martin case.

          • hennorama

            WftC – TYFYR. I’d like to invite you to reply to my post below, which asks three questions about how you first learned about the Christopher Lane case, and details about what that first source indicated about the case.

            While the answer to my question to you may be “obvious,” I’m trying to avoid any misunderstanding.

            In my view, any comparison between this case and the Martin/Zimmerman case is a very long stretch. The only commonalities that are apparent are that the victim was killed by a bullet from a handgun, and that the victim and at least one of the alleged offenders are of different races.

            Again, in an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, would you define the term “race hustler”?

            I look forward to your reply.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            One definition of race hustler == one who exploits race to derive power and/or personal enrichment.

            Do you care to offer a definition?

          • hennorama

            WftC – TYFYR.

            I would define the term if I used it, but I do not.

            A followup question – can “race hustlers” themselves be of any race, or is the term applied exclusively to one race. For example, I sometimes use the term “white nationalist/separatist/supremacist,” for white people who express certain views on race, as it is difficult to distinguish between the three descriptors.

            I look forward to your reply.

          • HonestDebate1

            “I would define the term if I used it, but I do not.”

            Ignorance is bliss. How do you deal with the sand in your ears?

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Please note I did not indicate that I did not understand the term, via context as well as the definitions of the individual words. My aim in asking for a definition is to avoid any misunderstanding. One assumes you would support any such effort.

          • HonestDebate1

            Make no mistake, have no misunderstanding, the common thread between Trayvon Martin, Chris Lane, Delbert Belton, David Santucci and the many examples of revenge for Trayvon beatings is the race hustler’s selective outrage. To avoid the issue is to stick your head in the sand.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Your opinion is merely that – an opinion.

            Again, in an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, would you please define the term “race hustler”? Without a definition, it is difficult to respond to your claims. As stated on multiple occasions, I’m not a fan of assumptions, and do not wish to make an assumption about what you mean by the term “race hustler.”

            I look forward to your forthright reply.

          • HonestDebate1

            Playing dumb is not honest debate. The only thing you are trying to avoid is the truth.

            You are a race hustler. hope that helps.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            I agree that you playing dumb is not honest debate.

            I am trying to avoid misunderstanding. If you are unable or unwilling to accept that, fine. But your playing dumb, by stubbornly refusing to answer simple, direct questions simply demonstrates the weakness of your positions.

            Further, your writing “You are a race hustler” has no meaning whatsoever, as you have not defined the term “race hustler.” Again, your playing dumb, by stubbornly refusing to answer simple, direct questions only demonstrates the weakness of your positions.

          • HonestDebate1

            Please define “misunderstanding”. I don’t understand.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response.

            Here’s the definition you requested, from m-w.com:

            mis·un·der·stand·ing noun
            Definition of MISUNDERSTANDING

            1: a failure to understand : misinterpretation
            2: quarrel, disagreement

            See: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misunderstanding?show=0&t=1377446253

            See how simple and easy that is? You should try it sometime, sir.

            BTW – in yet another effort to avoid any misunderstanding – in all cases of my recent use of the word ‘misunderstanding,’ you should use definition 1: a failure to understand : misinterpretation

            Thank you again for your response. I hope you will return the favor, and define the term “race hustler.”

          • HonestDebate1

            Well then, is it easy or not? Why don’t you just look it up? Or am I misunderstanding you?

          • hennorama

            SIr, I am asking you to be courteous, and to simply return the favor. Aren’t Southern gentlemen supposed to be courteous, and to return favors?

            Please present YOUR definition of the term “race hustler,” or, if you prefer, a dictionary’s definition of the term.

            Thank you in advance for your polite courtesy.

          • HonestDebate1

            “certain views on race” is not a definition until you define those views. It’s just gobblety gook.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Indeed the phrase “certain views on race” is not a definition. It is also the case that I never indicated that is was a definition. Pulling phrases out of context and mischaracteizing them is not aiding your argument or your credibility, sir.

            If you are asking for the specifics of what I mean, all you need do is ask.

            ==========

            Allow me to politely preclude the need for such a question, by presenting examples of white nationalist/separatist/supremacist views.

            Paraphrasing Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [white nationalist/separatist/supremacist views]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know [them] when I see [them].”

            [NOTE TO READERS: Some of the following is quite offensive, most especially the final quote, and it is presented here solely as examples of these views. I do not endorse any of the white nationalist/separatist/supremacist views that are quoted below.]

            ==========

            Jared Taylor, a well-known self-described “white separatist” and “racialist” has written such things as:

            “Blacks and whites are different. When blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western civilization — any kind of civilization — disappears.” — American Renaissance, 2005

            Mr. Taylor founded the New Century Foundation, which in published “The Color of Crime” (TCOC). The 2005 version of TCOC, said that “Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.”

            You are of course familiar with this, as you have misquoted these pseudo-statistical claims on multiple occasions. In addition, you have never once repudiated, renounced, disowned or otherwise indicated any disagreement with these claims, or the source publication.

            ==========

            You are also familiar with Colin Flaherty who, according to an article in salon.com, “has become popular in white nationalist circles. Several articles from his WND series have been picked up by American Renaissance, a white nationalist hate group that promotes pseudo-scientific studies and research that purport to show the inferiority of blacks to whites.”

            American Renaissance was also founded by Jared Taylor and the New Century Foundation.

            See:
            http://www.salon.com/2012/10/23/worldnetdaily_now_peddling_white_nationalism/

            And speaking of WND, to which you often link, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) titled a recent article “WorldNet Daily Continues to Pump Out Outrageous Propaganda,” and said this in the article:

            “WND is the brainchild of Joseph Farah, a self-described “radical” and longtime antigovernment propagandist and apologist for the Confederacy who believes “cultural Marxists” are plotting “to transform our political system, to change the way we think, to attack our values, to demean our faith in God, to reduce that shining city on the hill to the status of a drab public-housing project.”

            “Together with a coterie of antigovernment “Patriots,” anti-gay activists, white nationalists, Muslim-bashers, conspiracy theorists, end-times prophets and ultraconservative hardliners, Farah — who did not respond to requests to be interviewed for this article — has built WND into a modest media empire …”

            See:
            http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/fall/world-nuts-daily

            ==========

            It’s also notable that you post links to the nativist website Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), which was founded by John Tanton, who wrote these little gems:

            “I’ve come to the point of view that for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that.”

            “Do we leave it to individuals to decide that they are the intelligent ones who should have more kids? And more troublesome, what about the less intelligent, who logically should have less? Who is going to break the bad news [to less intelligent individuals], and how will it be implemented?” – from a 1996 letter to now-deceased eugenicist Robert K. Graham.

            See:
            http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/john-tanton

            ==========

            Here are some white supremacist views, from http://www.aryan-nation.org/index_1.html :

            “FIDELITY

            “That for which we fight is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our Race, by and of our Nations, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the people of our Race, so that we, a kindred people, may mature for fulfillment of the mission allotted to us by the Creator of the universe, our Father and God.”

            ==========

            And here’s more really vile hard-core “white nationalist” stuff, from stormfront.org:

            “In a nutshell, the problem with humanity is not so much one of ideology – this or that religious, political, social, or economic doctrine – but rather one of blood. That is, that a great deal (possibly 90% or more) of a person’s intelligence and character is determined by their DNA, which determines the structure of their brain before they are born. This is why Blacks, as a group, do the things they do. This is why Sweden, despite being “socialist” (a system which we are told often leads to economic stagnation), is a far better place to live than, say, “capitalist” (a system which we are told should always lead to economic prosperity) Nigeria. Of course, it is true that bad political/economic systems can ruin a country with otherwise “good” people (e.g., communist Russia), but if the genetics of a people are “bad” it’s pretty much hopeless regardless of the political/economic system (e.g., Africa). This is not to say that all Whites are “good”, or that all Blacks are “bad”. And it is true that social programs can teach Blacks and help them to some extent. However, in the long term, the quality of life of a nation is almost entirely determined by the quality of the mental character of the average person. If Blacks or Mexicans become a majority, then they will not be able to maintain the White man’s social, cultural and economic systems because they do not have to minds needed to do so. Most Whites in the United States know what happens when too many Blacks get together in a community, city or country – they “pull themselves down”. So, as the United States and Europe are flooded with Browns and Blacks, eventually the quality of life in these once great lands will become like that of the third world regardless of the social/economic/political system. And, not to be “racist”, but we Whites can’t have that. That’s not fair to us and our families. I know it isn’t “fair” of the world for Blacks to have to be born with such a disadvantage, but the first rule in wanting to help them is that you don’t become like them. Nobody is going to help the United States and Europe if our people fall to a third world status. Thus, our prime directive – the 14 words – “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children.” We want a few areas on the Earth (and states in the US) that are reserved for Whites, and Whites only, where we can live in peace apart from the horrors of the third world. Our children deserve that and we owe it to them. This is the basic principle of “White Nationalism” (WN).”

            See:
            http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t538924/ (I DO NOT recommend this site, but it is the source of the equine excrement above)

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then… and you’re welcome.

          • jefe68

            This from the king of gobblety gook.

    • HonestDebate1

      I wasn’t aware that black people could be charged with a hate crime.

      • hennorama

        Debates Not, He – TYFYR. I’d like to invite you to reply to my post below, which asks three questions about how you first learned about the Christopher Lane case, and details about what that first source indicated about the case.

        No doubt you intended your comment to be droll. Droll or not, it’s not really true that you aren’t “aware that black people could be charged with a hate crime,” now is it, sir?

        I write this due to the fact that only two days ago,a direct reply to you included links to both the FBI Hate Crime Statistics for 2011(Incidents, Offenses, Victims, and Known Offenders by Bias Motivation, 2011), and a Special Report from the DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (Special Report MARCH 2013 Hate Crime Victimization, 2003-2011).

        This is only the most recent occurrence of similar statistics and links on the topic of Hate Crime that have been presented directly to you.

        So much for “honest debate.”

        • HonestDebate1

          Honest debate requires two and I find your implied premises whacked and your questions irrelevant. So I’li take a pass on your homework assignment.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Two points:

            1. My questions are related to my curiosity about how people acquire information, and in this specific case, whether or not their initial sources a) reported the race(s) of those involved, and b) if so, was the reporting of the race(s) of those involved accurate.
            A significant amount of the initial reporting of this case was inaccurate. Multiple sources erroneously reported the race(s) of the alleged offenders, as well as the erroneous claim that one of the suspects said “I pulled the trigger” in open court. In some ways, the reporting of this case reminds me of some of the initial reporting of the Boston Bombing, due to the level of error involved.

            2. Your response implies that you feel that it’s OK for you to be dishonest, and that you perceive me to be dishonest. Please correct any misinterpretation, and if you perceive me to be dishonest, please explain your reasoning, assuming you have any.

            TYAFYR.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            I’ll play — although I don’t think you’ll garner much info.

            I heard a news report (I don’t remember the outlet) that an Australian official was admonishing his citizens to avoid tourism in the US because of the senseless murder of Lane in OK. There was no mention of race or Trayvon Martin.

          • hennorama

            WftC – TYFYR. Please encourage others to do so as well, if possible.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re welcome.

          • HonestDebate1

            BTW, do you have any criticism for those who regularly and erroneously refer to our President as black? Have you ever referred to him as black?

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Allow me to again use the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic

            [Your premise is whacked] as to it being “erroneous” to refer to President Obama as “black.” You are really reaching, sir.

            President Obama has referred to himself as both “black” and “African-American.” According to usatoday.com, “President Obama checked the “African American” box on the Census question about race.”

            See:
            http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2010/04/obamas-census-question-on-race/1

            ==========

            To answer your direct question:

            I cannot recall any instances where I referred to President Obama as “black,” but it’s certainly is possible, of course.

            Over one year ago, in this forum, I wrote the following, referring to Pres. Obama as African-American:

            “The ACA should be loved by Republicans, since it requires everyone to take responsibility for health costs by purchasing insurance through PRIVATE COMPANIES. They hate it only because it is President Obama’s signature accomplishment, and their oft-stated goal is to make the first African-American President a one-termer.”

            See:
            http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/07/13/week-in-the-news-204#comment-587127177

            I generally use the term “African-American” but definitely have used the much shorter term “black” virtually interchangeably. Part of this is due to the fact that the US Census and other official entities use the terms almost interchangeably, as you may have noticed:

            The US Census uses ““Black or African American Alone.” The FBI Crime Statistics Tables use “black.” The NCVS also uses “black.” The Dept. Of Health and Human Services (HHS) uses “African-American.” There are also some entities, such as the CDC, that use “non-Hispanic black” in a nod to the difficulties involved in the use of both the term “black” and the term “Hispanic.”

            ==========

            I rarely think about the topic of race, and certainly am not “obsess[ing] on such matters.” I certainly have discussed it in this forum, but generally in rebuttal of your comments, or in connection with electoral matters.

            If anyone in this forum is obsessed with the topic of race, it is you, sir, far and away.

          • HonestDebate1

            We already know he has an animosity towards whites, of course he would disown his heritage but the facts are the facts. Obama is half black (or African American take your pick), what difference does it make what he says?

            The only thing I am obsessed with is honest debate. That requires setting the record straight.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            Again, [Your premise is whacked] as to President Obama having “an animosity towards whites.” or that “he would disown his heritage.”

            Your obsession with race is consistent throughout your comments in this forum, and you are nearly always the first person to bring up the topic. That you are unable to acknowledge this is merely further proof of the lie of your moniker, and that you are not in any way about “honest debate.”

          • HonestDebate1

            No Hennon, it IS honest debate. If he is calling himself black then he is disowning his white half. It’s axiomatic. If you make the point to say the accomplice is not black but half black, insisting that is crucial, while having a polar opposite position regarding Obama then that is not honest debate.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response. I hope you are enjoying your Sunday, and note that, at the time of this writing, the weather in your little ‘ville seems quite favorable.

            You wrote “If you make the point to say the accomplice is not black but half black, insisting that is crucial, while having a polar opposite position regarding Obama then that is not honest debate.”

            You seem to have misunderstood. In my comments made to [Stephen706], I did not “make the point to say the accomplice is not black but half black,” nor was I “insisting that is crucial.”

            Addressing the first point, I pointed out that [Stephen706] was correct that ONE of the suspects was, as he wrote “mixed–with a white mother and black father… just like Obama… the other two are black…” However, that left out suspect Michael Dewayne Jones, who is white, which prompted me to write:

            “That’s true. Suspect Chancey Luna’s mother is white. He’s the person in the middle photo below. That still leaves suspect Michael Dewayne Jones, who is white.”

            I went on to be even more clear, by writing again to [Stephen706}:

            [[Stephen706 – to be as clear as possible, you are wrong.

            You wrote “One is mixed--with a white mother and black father... just like Obama... the other two are black...”

            This is false.

            One suspect, James Francis Edwards appears to be black. His father is black.
            Another suspect, Chancey Allen Luna appears to be black. His mother is white.
            The third suspect Michael Dewayne Jones, is white. This is undisputed.]]

            I hope that clears up your misunderstanding. The point that one suspect is, as [Stephen706] wrote, “mixed–with a white mother and black father… just like Obama… ” was not MY point, but rather was [Stephen706]‘s point. It is not crucial, but clearing up the confusion was crucial, in my view.

            What I was trying to do is point out to everyone the errors and confusion regarding the race(s) of the suspects. Several sources, including Fox & Friends, The Daily Caller, etc., had made errors in identifying the suspects as “three black teens.” One suspects that this contributed significantly to the furor over the senseless and indefensible killing of Christopher Lane.

            As you know, there was a significant amount of back and forth about this case in the OP forum titled “Congressman John Lewis And The 50th Anniversary Of The March On Washington.” Based solely on the context, it seemed that [notafeminista], who was the first to mention “Chris Lane,” was not aware that one of the suspects is white, and two are black. I asked [notafeminista] about this, but there has been no reply at the time of this post.

            This apparent confusion/ignorance about the facts is interesting to me, which prompted my post that asked three questions about the Christopher Lane case.

            I invite you again to answer those questions candidly.

            ==========

            I must again rebut your claim that “If [President Obama] is calling himself black then he is disowning his white half.” This is pure nonsense. The President has never in any way hidden or “disowned” his family or his background, nor his extended family, which he has described as follows:

            “Michelle will tell you that when we get together for Christmas or Thanksgiving, it’s like a little mini-United Nations,” he says. For example, his half-Indonesian half-sister is married to a Chinese-Canadian. “I’ve got relatives who look like Bernie Mac, and I’ve got relatives who look like Margaret Thatcher,” he says “We’ve got it all.”

            See:
            http://www.oprah.com/world/Keeping-Hope-Alive/10

            President Obama is free to identify himself as he sees fit, sir. Perhaps he is merely recognizing the reality of racial perceptions in America, where President Obama’s background is represented by a simple equation:

            white + black = black.

            Please allow me to ask you a question. You have indicated that you were born in one state, but now live in a different state. Given this, how do answer the question “Where are you from?” Are you an Alaskahoman? A TexYorker?

            I look forward to your forthright reply, and invite you again to answer the three questions I posed about the Christopher Lane case.

    • OnPointComments

      It’s mildly humorous that the DA acknowledged that the social media postings “appear” racial in nature. I can imagine someone emailing DA Hicks and saying “90% of white ppl are nasty. #HATE THEM. Ayee I knocced out 5 woods [slang for white people] since Zimmerman court!” and DA Hicks wondering if the statements are racial.

      • hennorama

        OPC – TYFYR.

        Such social media posts are indeed reprehensible, and are certainly indicative of significant racial animosity and/or bias, assuming that you believe the words of alleged murderers. In addition, one must consider the potential for braggadocious and blustery postings, due both to the relative anonymity of social media, and the fact that the alleged offenders are teenagers.

        Likely part of the calculus involved in DA Hicks’ decision is the fact that, per the linked article, “Hate crime in Oklahoma is a misdemeanor.” Combine this with the difficulty of proving an alleged offender’s motivation, and what seem to be slam-dunk cases of the far more serious chrages of murder and accessory to murder, and one can easily understand the reasoning.

        This is what the FBI says about their methodology related to Hate Crime:

        “Because motivation is subjective, it is sometimes difficult to know with certainty whether a crime resulted from the offender’s bias. Moreover, the presence of bias alone does not necessarily mean that a crime can be considered a hate crime. Only when law enforcement investigation reveals sufficient evidence to lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the offender’s actions were motivated, in whole or in part, by his or her bias, should an incident be reported as a hate crime.”

        See:
        http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2011/resources/methodology

        BTW, the local newspaper in Duncan, OK has done a bang-up job of straight reporting on this case. You can read more of their articles about the case, starting here:

        http://duncanbanner.com/local?start=30

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    More evidence of cultural decay and another senseless death. This time an 89 year old WWII vet.

    RIP Shorty!!

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/23/20145461-teen-charged-second-sought-in-beating-death-of-wwii-vet-88-in-spokane-wash?lite

    • stephenreal

      No such thing as “cultural decay”.

    • StilllHere

      They would have to have a culture to decay. If anything, there’s a culture of violence and ignorance. Or perhaps you are referring to their impact on the general culture? Not clear to me.

    • hennorama

      Debates Not, He – one is obligated to point out the following, from the article you linked to:

      “The suspects are black and Belton was white, but Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub said race didn’t appear to be a factor in the attack.

      “These are two individuals who for whatever reason went out on a given night to rob someone,” Straub said. “They robbed him, they beat him and they killed him.”

      Other than the clearly horrendous and reprehensible nature of the crime, is there some other significance to the crime, or some “big picture” or “forrest [sic] view” aspect that the rest of the world is missing?

      Inquiring minds want to know. Please enlighten the world about what you describe as “cultural decay.”

      • HonestDebate1

        Who cares?

        • hennorama

          ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

    • hennorama

      WftC – My sincerest apologies for misaddressing my original reply. Below is an edited version of my original reply, conforming to the fact that it’s responding to you, and not to the erroneous moniker. I’ll also edit the other reply, to effectively delete it.

      Again, my sincerest apologies for my mistake.

      WftC – one is obligated to point out the following, from the article you linked to:

      “The suspects are black and Belton was white, but Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub said race didn’t appear to be a factor in the attack.

      “These are two individuals who for whatever reason went out on a given night to rob someone,” Straub said. “They robbed him, they beat him and they killed him.”

      Other than the clearly horrendous and reprehensible nature of the crime, is there some other significance to the crime, or some “big picture” aspect that the rest of the world is missing?

      Please explain what you mean by “cultural decay,” and how this crime fits into your thesis.

      Again, my apologies.

      • HonestDebate1

        Assuming is was possible to determine the degree race played a role (it’s not), what difference could it possibly make? What does race have to do with cultural decay?

        • Ray in VT

          I do not think that you addressed the question of what you mean by cultural decay and what this crime has to do with it.

          • HonestDebate1

            Two guys beat a WWII vet to death for the hell of it and you don’t understand what it has to do with cultural decay?

          • Ray in VT

            So in the “good old days” such things never happened? Good to know.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m not sure if you are serious or contentious. Are you saying we are not experiencing cultural decay?

          • Ray in VT

            Define cultural decay, which my original comment commented upon the fact that you did not.

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, He – please allow me to again quote you, sir:

          “If you don’t have a comment relating to the thread, please go play in your own sandbox.”

          • HonestDebate1

            So now you’re playing schoolmarm for WFTC’s thread? Wow, that’s pretty arrogant even for you. But I can see why you don’t want to answer the relevant question, you can’t.

          • hennorama

            ZZZZZZZZZZZ.

  • stephenreal

    At least Attorney General Eric Holder isn’t all that bad fellas colored people can vote in Texas. And African teenage boys have a champion against hate crimes like “stand your ground” laws.

    And if trends continue like the 5 out of the last 6 races to the White House Eric Holder could hold on to his job for another 8 years if not longer.

    So things are looking up.

    • HonestDebate1

      He’s a disgrace.

    • pete18

      Colored people couldn’t vote in Texas before Eric Holder did something?

      • stephenreal

        Voter suppression dude

        • pete18

          How was the black vote suppressed, dude?

          • Steve__T

            The Justice Department has announced a lawsuit seeking to prevent Texas from enacting the voter ID law that helped spark the recent U.S. Supreme Court case over voting rights. A federal court last year ruled the Republican-controlled statehouse in Texas discriminated against people of color in its redrawing of political maps for congressional and legislative districts ahead of the 2012 election. But the ruling was struck down in June when the Supreme Court invalidated a critical portion of the 1965 Voting Rights Act that required nine states with a history of racial discrimination to obtain federal approval for changes to voting rules. Texas began enforcing the voter ID law after the Supreme Court decision came down.

            The Justice Department is expected to file lawsuits against other states, Possibly in North Carolina, which approved sweeping curbs on voting rights earlier this month. On Thursday, North Carolina’s Republican Gov. Pat McCrory heard direct criticism of the state’s law from former Secretary of State Colin Powell at a public event in Raleigh. Moments after McCrory left the stage, Powell said governments should enact policies that “encourage every American to vote, not make it more difficult to vote.” Powell said the new law sends a message to minority voters that “we are really sort of punishing you.”

          • pete18

            Does the Texas voter ID law require only blacks to show ID?

            Is it not a valid concern to make sure that the people who come into the voting booth are who they say they are?

            The supreme court ruled that it was not fair for a certain few select states to be held to a different set of federal standards for setting their own voting rules because of voting data from 50 years ago. It said the feds could still impose unique standards on them but they had to use current data, which showed CURRENT patterns of racial discrimination in voting. This would allow for those few states to not be held to a different standard than the rest of the country into perpetuity. However, If they were still acting as they did in the 1950s and 60s the feds could continue the current restrictions. Do you really believe that such a change is unfair or has “invalidated” the purpose of the original voting act?

          • HonestDebate1

            On what basis do you call requiring ID as curbs on voting rights? How hard is it to show an ID? I don’t get it.

            And don’t you find Colin Powell’s comment to be a slap up side the head to the intelligence of blacks? I sure do.

  • HonestDebate1

    When Trayvon Martin was shot to death in a murky incident in Sanford, Fla., Jesse Jackson rushed there to declare: “Blacks are under attack. … Killing us is big business.” Trayvon was “shot down in cold blood by a vigilante … murdered and martyred.”

    After Chris Lane’s cold-blooded murder, Jesse tweeted: This sort of thing is to be “frowned upon.”

    http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/dead-souls-of-a-cultural-revolution/#23smfbRWeGbmTYRf.99

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      WorldNutDaily.

      • HonestDebate1

        What did Mr. Buchanan get wrong?

        • pete18

          He’s like a food critic who only has the capacity to write about the serving plate rather than the food on top of it.

          • HonestDebate1

            Perfect!

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, He – you asked “What did Mr. Buchanan get wrong?” Allow me to count the ways:

          1. For this first comment, please imagine it being said by Michael “Let’s Get Ready To Rumble” Buffer:

          MMMMMister Buchanaaaaaaaaan – [Your premise is whaaaaaaaaaacked].

          Mr. Buchanan said the following, starting about 4:40 into the video clip from your link:

          “Look – the most common form of interracial hate crime is black on white. Greta, when I did a book, one of my recent books I went down the FBI statistics, because the post doesn’t do it, and found more than four hundred … one year – 2007 – 433,000 attacks by blacks on whites, and one-eighth of that by whites on blacks. At the same time, the black community was five times as small – black community one-fith the size of the white community. The idea of racial hate crimes is 40 times more prevalent in the black community than the white community, and NOBODY TALKS ABOUT IT.”

          The implication is that Mr. Buchanan believes that there were 433,000 “interracial hate crime[s] that were “black on white.”

          As Vice President Biden might say, “What a bunch of malarkey!”

          2. Let’s look at the FBI statistics for 2007, from the FBI website:

          “Nationwide, an estimated 1,408,337 violent crimes occurred in 2007”

          This means that Mr. Buchanan believes that over 30 percent of all violent crimes in the US in 2007 were “attacks by blacks on whites” and “racial hate crimes.” Again, as VP Biden might say, “What a bunch of malarkey!”

          3. The FBI says “In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.”

          The FBI Overview page says “Aggravated assault accounted for 60.8 percent (855,856) of violent crimes, the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement. Robbery comprised 31.6 percent (445,125) and forcible rape accounted for 6.4 percent (90,427). Murder accounted for 1.2 percent (16,929) of estimated violent crimes in 2007.”

          (the number of each type of crime is in parentheses above)

          Because the FBI Tables do not break down offender information, except for Homicide offenders, we need to look at some selected data from the 2007 FBI Persons Arrested Overview:

          “In 2007, the FBI estimated that 14,209,365 arrests occurred nationwide for all offenses (except traffic violations), of which 597,447 were for violent crimes, and 1,610,088 were for property crimes.”

          “The majority (69.7 percent) of persons arrested in 2007 were white. Whites accounted for 58.9 and 67.9 percent of persons arrested for violent crimes and property crimes, respectively.”

          “In 2007, white adults accounted for 61.1 percent of all adults arrested for violent crimes and 68.7 percent of all adults arrested for property crimes.”

          “Of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes in 2007, 50.7 percent were black and 47.5 percent were white.”

          Selected details for Arrests by Race, 2007, Percent distribution:

          Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter: White 47.6% Black 50.4%

          Forcible rape: White 64.4% Black 33.5%

          Robbery: White 42.0% Black 56.7%

          Aggravated assault: White 64.0% Black 33.7%

          4. The real problem with Mr. Buchanan’s comment above is that he is confused. He is NOT talking about “the FBI statistics” for 2007 AT ALL. He’s actually referring to estimates from the 2007 National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which is an annual data collection conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Dept. of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The NCVS is absolutely different and distinct from “the FBI statistics”

          Perhaps he’s just getting old, but he’s made this mistake before. In an opinion piece on creators.com, Mr. Buchanan wrote:

          “After researching the FBI numbers for “Suicide of a Superpower,” this writer concluded: “An analysis of ‘single offender victimization figures’ from the FBI for 2007 finds blacks committed 433,934 crimes against whites, eight times the 55,685 whites committed against blacks. Interracial rape is almost exclusively black on white — with 14,000 assaults on white women by African Americans in 2007. Not one case of a white sexual assault on a black female was found in the FBI study.”

          See:

          http://www.creators.com/opinion/pat-buchanan/black-america-s-real-problem-isn-t-white-racism.html

          Poor Mr. Buchanan. He’s doing the exact same thing that the white separatists who published ‘The Color Of Crime” did – misinterpreting, misunderstanding, and misusing estimates based on surveys.

          Here’s my proof. Remember, Mr. Buchanan said “one year – 2007 – 433,000 attacks by blacks on whites, and one-eighth of that by whites on blacks.”

          From the 2007 NCVS, Table 42. Personal crimes of violence, 2007: Percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender:

          For the estimated 3,262,660 “White only” victims of “Crimes of violence”, the “perceived race of offender” was:

          White: 68.0% Black: 13.3%.

          If we do the arithmetic for so-called “black on white” victimizations, we find that [13.3% of 3,262,660 = 433934]. That’s pretty darn close to Mr. Buchanan’s figure of 433,000, and EXACTLY THE SAME as what he wrote in the opinion piece above.

          Using the same Table 42, we find

          For the estimated 562,470 “Black only” victims of “Crimes of violence”, the “perceived race of offender” was:

          White: 9.9% Black: 72.8%. Again, doing the arithmetic for so-called “white on black” victimizations, we find that [9.9% of 562,470 = 55,685].

          Again, this is EXACTLY THE SAME as what he wrote in the opinion piece above.

          Dividing these two estimates of estimates, we get [55685/433934 = 0.12835], which is very close to “one-eighth” (0.125).

          5. Since Mr. Buchanan used NCVS estimates of the TOTAL “Crimes of violence” rather than “Completed violence,” one must point out that “Attempted” and “threatened” violence together consistently account for roughly three fourths of the estimated TOTAL numbers of “Crimes of violence” in the NCVS Statistical Tables. One also must point out that since the NCVS is a survey of victims, Homicide is not included as a “Crime of violence” in the tables.

          In other words, Mr. Buchanan, YOU’RE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING RIGHT.

          6. Finally, for those searching for hidden truth, “Anarchic Bunk, Pat” and “A Burnt Hack Panic” are anagrams of “Patrick Buchanan.”

          Sources:
          http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/violent_crime/index.html

          http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime

          http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_01.html

          http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_43.html

          http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus07.pdf (Table 42 is on page 55)

          • HonestDebate1

            The most common form of interracial hate crime is black on white.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – parroting Mr. Buchanan’s words is not aiding your argument
            or your credibility, sir.

            Both you and he are wrong.

          • HonestDebate1

            Be accurate even if you’re delusional, I, Buchanan as well as everybody and their brother are wrong. Everybody but you.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response.

            Allow me to repeat several quotations I recently noted:

            Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.
            - Mahatma Gandhi

            Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self-sustained.
            - Mahatma Gandhi

            The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.

            ===========

            If you believe that “everybody and their brother” share the erroneous claims and views expressed by Mr. Buchanan and yourself, you may want to examine the fine line between honest belief and self-delusion.

            DISCLAIMER: I am not a health care professional and any advice offered or concern expressed should not be interpreted as medical advice.

            Still, seriously, check it out.

            Mr. Buchanan’s errors have been amply demonstrated. If you care to refute my demonstrations of his errors, please feel free. A good laugh is always welcome, and can be the best medicine. (Repeat the DISCLAIMER above here).

            The basic error of course is the belief that you and Mr. Buchanan seem to share – that interracial violent crime is in and of itself “hate crime.”

            Obviously, interracial crime is not in and of itself indicative of racism or bias, and there is an enormous difference between crime that is interracial but absent of any racial motivation, and interracial crime that is racially motivated. I have pointed this out on several occasions, and have asked you about it directly as well. You have never once answered the questions or made and other direct remarks, so one is left to infer that you do not dispute this.

            Allow me to repeat some comments I made recently:

            When I think about violence and violent crime, I think about victims. From their perspective, the characteristics of the offender rarely matter in any way, other than as a way to describe the offender to police. Think of it this way – if someone crashes into your vehicle with their vehicle, does the color of the cars matter? Not to me. All I want to know is whether anyone was injured.

            But it seems that ALL you see is “the color of the car.”

            In a similar way, if one was truly “concerned about … violence” and violent crime, then why focus solely on the race of offenders, and specifically on the race of offenders involved in interracial crime? Why not focus on victims, crime prevention, the causes of crime, etc.?

            Unless of course all one were truly “concerned about” is “the color of the car.”

          • HonestDebate1

            But I am a health care professional and a rocket scientist who thinks you have space fever.

            And I don’t care about motivation, you don’t get that. Hate crime laws are stupid.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response, despite its bizarreness.

            You wrote “I don’t care about motivation…”

            That is at odds with many of your recent remarks, such as:

            1. “Make no mistake, have no misunderstanding, the common thread between Trayvon Martin, Chris Lane, Delbert Belton, David Santucci and the many examples of revenge for Trayvon beatings is the race hustlers’ selective outrage.”

            This indicated your interest in what you described as “revenge for Trayvon.” which certainly can be described as “motivation.”

            2. “They are calling the murder of David Santucci a robbery but nothing was taken, not his phone, his car keys or his wallet, nothing. The shot was fired from a distance not up close as would be typical of a robbery. The murderers had numerous photos of Trayvon Martin on his Facebook page. We already have numerous accounts of revenge beatings by blacks on whites for Trayvon. I suppose we’ll find out soon enough if this was a revenge murder. It sure seems so.”

            Again, this indicated your interest in what you described as “revenge beatings by blacks on whites for Trayvon” which certainly can be described as “motivation,” and you were explicit in expressing that “It sure seems .. this was a revenge murder.”

            3. “Conventional wisdom says blacks are not safe in a racist America. This is a meme the liberals are highly invested in. That is why Trayvon Martin was martyred. That is why the racial angle was manufactured and the sycophants swallowed it whole based on spoon fed pre-conceived notions. The last thing OP and the rest want is for the truth to be known. That is, the biggest threat by far to blacks is other blacks. The last thing a black person has to worry about is being a victim of racial violence from a white. It is rare. That fact discredits the meme the press so wants to believe and propagate.”

            This indicates your interest in the motivations of a) liberals, and b) the press.

            While I do not yet know exactly what you mean when you use the terms “race hustlers,” the use of that term, and the context involved, indicates it is a pejorative. This indicates your interest in the motivations and/or actions of those you describe as “race hustlers,” including those of [hennorama], as you have referred to [hennorama] as “a race hustler.”

            Can you reconcile and/or explain these apparent contradictions, sir?

            ==========

            As to your remark that “Hate crime laws are stupid” – there’s a case to be made for your position. However, you seem to share Pat Buchanan’s view – that interracial violent crime is in and of itself “hate crime.”

            Please explain the following, which you wrote:

            “The most common form of interracial hate crime is black on white.”
            I am sincerely trying to avoid any misunderstanding or misinterpretation of your remark, and would appreciate your candid and forthright explanation.

          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t care about the motivations of the killers, I care very much about the motivations of the race-hustling press. Do I have to spell it out for you?

            I don’t care about hate crimes, I care about innocents being murdered in cold blood. I don’t care if it’s a failed robbery or a mafia like execution. I don’t care if it’s racially motivated or not. I don’t care about the race of killers, I care about the destructive double standard when we need healing honesty; when we need to identify the root causes nobody here will talk about.

            Hope that helps.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response.

            Let’s see … you’ve listed 5 things you say you “don’t care about,” despite the fact that you’ve discussed all 5 things at length. I believe the appropriate Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic selection is

            [Alrighty then]

            Putting the above aside, let’s “address” the things you supposedly “care about.”

            But first, please allow an old “address” joke, as humor can be a good icebreaker:

            An envelope that was “addressed” as follows found its way to the proper recipient:

            WOOD
            JOHN
            MASS

            How could this be? Simple – postal workers can be both literal and clever.

            John Underwood
            Andover, Mass.

            An oldie, but still a goodie, don’t you agree?

            ===========
            You wrote “I care very much about the motivations of the race-hustling press. Do I have to spell it out for you?”

            ANSWER: YES. Please “spell out” your definition of “race-hustling.” I challenge you, as a Southern gentleman, to demonstrate your courtesy, and to return the favor extended to you, sir.

            Please also “spell out” the identities of the individuals and other entities that are part of the “race-hustling press.”

            Please also express what you believe “the motivations of the race-hustling press” are, if you wish to. Please also answer this question – Do you believe any part of the newsfotainment industry is not primarily motivated by $$$?

            (The newsfotainment [“news” + “information” + “entertaiment”] industry includes all the media conglomerates, “Public” media, as well as all the various and sundry bloggers, online pundits, news aggregators, etc., etc. See the helpful infographic here: http://www.businessinsider.com/these-6-corporations-control-90-of-the-media-in-america-2012-6 )

            ===========
            You wrote “I care about innocents being murdered in cold blood.”

            RESPONSE: Join the club. EVERYONE cares about innocents being murdered, in cold blood or otherwise.

            ===========
            You wrote “I care about the destructive double standard when we need healing honesty; when we need to identify the root causes nobody here will talk about.

            RESPONSE: Please be more specific as to what “the destructive double standard” is. Implicit in your comment is that you have “identif[ied] the root causes” of something. Please explain what you are trying to communicate.

            Thanks again for your response.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re welcome.

        • StilllHere

          He won’t even try to reply to that.

    • OnPointComments

      Here’s what bothers me about the heightened attention given to the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman.

      The killing of Trayvon Martin is not more worthy of national angst, presidential speeches, members of Congress making speeches from the floor, demonstrations, special DOJ investigations, and a national discussion about race, than the killing of Christopher Lane. Christopher Lane was a high school graduate, soon to be a college graduate, and an accomplished athlete. I have seen nothing negative about his character. Trayvon Martin could charitably be described as a “troubled teen,” suspended from school three times, suspected in a robbery, caught defacing property, involved with drugs and guns, and a disciple of rap and hip-hop culture. George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin after Martin assaulted him; Christopher Lane was killed for sport.

      The killing of Trayvon Martin is not more important than the killing of Christopher Lane.

  • HonestDebate1
    • hennorama

      Debates Not, He – Other than the clearly horrendous and reprehensible nature of the crimes, is there some other significance to these crimes, or some “big picture” or “forrest [sic] view” aspect that the rest of the world is missing?

      Is there some connection that the rest of the world is missing?

      Enquiring minds want to know. Please enlighten the world.

      • HonestDebate1

        The “forrest [sic] view” (don’t expect me to understand the quotes or the sic) is the culture is going to pieces especially in the black community. We have convinced blacks they are being wronged, they are being oppressed, they are incapable of voting, they need a leg up and racists neighborhood watchmen are hunting them down. We don’t expect them to excel, we excuse hideous white hating language in their social media. We have politicians that are surprised when they are clean and articulate. These are the results.

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

          My apologies. I misquoted you, sir. Allow me to rephrase, and to refresh your recollection.

          I meant to write [“forrest [sic] thing” view]. I have been quoting you, and noting your erroneous spelling of the word “forest” for over a month now, sir. That you don’t understand this is your issue, not mine, sir.

          Here’s what you wrote, which bears a remarkable resemblance to one of your remarks today, and is just as nonsensical:

          “Obama wrote racist crap in his book, you won’t comment on the quotes that are real. He injected race in the Zimmerman case and the Cambridge incident. He blames everything on race. He harbors an animosity to his mother’s race. It’s plain.

          “It’s a forrest thing you won’t get it.”

          See:
          http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/07/15/zimmerman-verdict#

          I’ll edit the posts containing the misquotes. TY for bringing it to my attention.

          As to the remainder of your comment – you again prove that you are truly an equine excrement expert, sir.

          • HonestDebate1

            Oh I see, it’s a schoolmarm thing. It’s a result of not being able to see the forrest for the trees.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – “Schoolmarm Says” – Thank You For Your Response, Mr. Gump.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re welcome.

          • HonestDebate1

            You say “expert” like it’s a bad thing.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response.

            Au contraire, mon frère. (If you do not understand this phrase, I recommend an online translator, such as http://www.bing.com/translator and/or http://translate.google.com/ )

            Being an expert is generally a fine thing. What one chooses to be an expert in may or may not be a fine thing, and is for the individual to determine.

            You should wear your expertise in equine excrement proudly, as you certainly can fling it. However, one recommends NOT wearing the actual equine excrement, at least not in public.

  • stephenreal

    AG Eric Holder is an AG for all the people and that does include all the colored people too…believe it or not.

  • Outside_of_the_Box

    We always hear about the US looking after it’s “national interests” in the Middle East.
    But what are these interests exactly, and who do they serve?
    On Point should devote 2 shows to this subject, and really get into the nitty gritty of it.
    My suspicion/fear is that the interests are largely money related when it boils down to it, and that money primarily serves special interests and not the American people.

    • ExcellentNews

      Well, there is the 2.5 TRILLION estimated worth of the Saudi royal family, chief sponsor of fundamentalist Islam around the world, and feudal lords over few million people who have the human rights of cattle…

      Not to mention an assortment of smaller despots, oligarchs, cronies and shills of all kinds, all united by their love of numbered Swiss accounts….

      • Outside_of_the_Box

        Well I’m thinking more of the major special interests/lobbies in the US – which are the MIC (Military Industrial Complex), Big Biz like Oil, Israel, Bankers, yes foreign related interests like Saud.

        It would be extremely helpful to paint a clear picture based on the facts of the elements that comprise the real “National Interests” in the US, and then see how much of that happens to be the interests of the American people. Do we even know what the interests of the majority of Americans is? After all, it’s supposed to be “for the people, by the people”, is it not?
        It would be difficult for me to have this radio show, and not address this critical question in an honest and critical manner. Otherwise, you are pretending to report the news, while ignoring the elephant in the room, an elephant which towers over all of the smaller issues you choose to engage with, that are related to that overarching reality in one way or another.

  • HonestDebate1

    The race hustling press has blood on their hands. When will they get called out for inflaming racial tensions by exploiting the death of Trayvon Martin? How is it possible to claim Chris Lane’s murder had nothing to do with Trayvon? There are plenty of cases where there is evidence:

    Here’s just a few:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/should-media-share-blame-for-growing-list-of-trayvon-martin-hate-crimes

    And for the less nuanced, I’m not saying it did. that was not my question. I find the efforts to dismiss the notion out of hand to be despicable attempt to distract from the hideous offenses of the media. The DA says “At this point, the evidence does not support the theory that Christopher Lane was targeted based upon his race or nationality,” And, “At this point, the evidence does not support the theory that Christopher Lane was targeted based upon his race or nationality,” To which i say, so what? And again for the less nuanced, the DA is doing his job responsibly. But he is not a mind reader. this is why hate crime laws are stupid. It’s entirely possible the murder was 100% inspired by revenge for Trayvon and that there is zero evidence to support it. I am directing the question at those who disingenuously cite the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie. To do so is to distract from the point I and others are trying to make about the disastrous results of the race-baiting media. It’s ironic that the same folks can easily believe Benghazi was about a video or Sarah Palin inspired Gabby Giffords horrible incident.

    To be clear, I blame the murderers but the press and pop culture idiots like Oprah and others have a big hand in creating the volatile situation. I’ll save Chief Keef for later.

    We have a serious problems in our culture and it seems to me getting bogged down in the ethnicity of accomplices of the Lane murder or whether David Santucci’s murder was robbery entirely beside the point.

    • hennorama

      Debates Not, He – In an effort to avoid misunderstanding, I have two questions for you:

      1. How do you define the term “race hustling”?

      2. Do you include Rush Limbaugh, Allen West, Fox and Friends, The Daily Caller, White House correspondent Ed Henry of Fox News, the Drudge Report, and many others, as part of the “The race hustling press”?

      ==========

      While I agree that there is some evidence of racial animosity and/or bias on the part of the alleged offender(s) in the Christopher Lane case, discerning and proving their motivation for their alleged crimes is practically impossible, absent evidence of their state of mind at the time of their alleged crimes. One also is inclined to believe they will not provide much evidence against their fellow alleged offenders, so garnering evidence of their state of mind without testimonial or other direct evidence is, again, virtually impossible.

      You are of course free to have your opinion about the matter, and to disagree with the DA and others directly involved in the case, who obviously possess information you do not.

      As the FBI says, and which I have pointed out to you before,

      “Because motivation is subjective, it is sometimes difficult to know with certainty whether a crime resulted from the offender’s bias. Moreover, the presence of bias alone does not necessarily mean that a crime can be considered a hate crime. Only when law enforcement investigation reveals sufficient evidence to lead a reasonable and prudent person to conclude that the offender’s actions were motivated, in whole or in part, by his or her bias, should an incident be reported as a hate crime.”

      See:

      http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2011/resources/methodology

      The mere fact that a crime or crimes involve victim(s) and offender(s) of different races does not in and of itself demonstrate racial motivation for the crime(s). One would think this would be obvious to all, but it seems to not be in your case.

      ==========

      One also must point out that the source that you cite, from more than one year ago, is, politely speaking, less than stellar. This is the first paragraph from your source:

      “On the morning of March 19th, the website Think Progress attacked Fox News for not spedning [sic] enough time hyping the Trayvon Martin shooting. Think Progress is run by former Obama administration staffer, and self-described “real life Fox Moulder,” John Podesta. Think Progress reported that CNN had run 44 Trayvon Martin segments, while MSNBC had run 14, and FOX News had only run one. The left-wing site insinuated that Fox News was racially bias [sic] for not running more segments on Trayvon Martin.”

      Simple spelling and tense errors do not exactly engender confidence in a source, wouldn’t you agree?

      I look forward to your response.

      • HonestDebate1

        #1 figure it out, it’s not rocket science
        #2 I consider only race hustlers as race hustlers

        Who said I disagree with the DA? I’m saying there is no way to know. The DA did NOT say the incident had nothing to do with race. I pointed out there may be zero evidence despite the DA indicating there was evidence, just not enough.

        Kudos to Fox for not piling on and I’ll take the Examiner over Think progress any day of the week. You cited the FBI who released photos of what they said were Marathon Bomber suspects and put those innocent boys through hell, all the while they had a file on Tsnaraev. Does that engender confidence? Yet you link them. That’s your logic, not mine. It’s a silly and stupid game you are playing.

        Your effort to change the subject and ignore the numerous documented examples of hate is truly despicable. If you don’t have a comment relating to the thread, please go play in your own sandbox.

        • hennorama

          Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

          I’m sorry that you are unable and/or unwilling to answer simple questions in a forthright manner. As stated, I am trying to avoid misunderstandings. One would assume you would support any such effort.

          I’m also sorry that you feel I am making an “effort to change the subject,” as this is absolutely untrue. As to your claim that I am “ignor[ing} the numerous documented examples of hate” that premise is also false. That I choose to not comment on things that you cite, which are oftentimes from questionable sources, is not evidence of ignoring them. Allow me to quote you, sir:

          “Don't confuse silence with disinterest...”

          I'm also sorry that you misunderstood what I wrote. I did not write that “[you] disagree with the DA.” Rather, I wrote that “You are of course free to have your opinion about the matter, and to disagree with the DA and others directly involved in the case, who obviously possess information you do not.” This implies that you disagree with the DA, but it does not “say” that you disagree. Allow me to rephrase, and to clarify what I wrote, by adding some words [in brackets]:

          “You are of course free to have your opinion about the matter, and [are of course also free] to disagree with the DA and others directly involved in the case, who obviously possess information you do not.”

          Does that help? I hope so, as I am indeed trying to avoid misunderstanding.

          ==========

          You do realize that examiner.com is a essentially a conglomeration of blog posts, and that it has over 200 different editions, right? According to examiner.com “Examiner.com is the insider source for everything local, offering a rich mix of hyper-local and globally-relevant content. We currently have 240 editions, including most U.S. cities and Canada.” wikipedia.com says “Examiner.com is a media company based in Denver, Colorado, that operates a network of local news websites, allowing “pro–am contributors” to share their city-based knowledge on a blog-like platform, in 238 markets throughout the United States and parts of Canada with two national editions, one for each country.”

          Here’s some other simple and direct questions for you:

          1. You wrote ”I am directing the question at those who disingenuously cite the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie.” To which of the three questions you posed prior to that statement are you referring?

          2. Are you referring to [hennorama] as one of “those who disingenuously cite the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie”?

          3. If the answer to question 2. is “yes,” will you please provide your reasoning and/or evidence that [hennorama] has “cite[d] the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie”?

          4. Again, if the answer to question 2. is “yes,” will you please provide your reasoning and/or evidence that [hennorama] has indicated that “there is no tie” between the killing of Christopher Lane, and the killing of Trayvon Martin (assuming that is what you meant by “there is no tie”)?

          5. Can you provide a basis for your statement “the FBI … released photos of what they said were Marathon Bomber suspects and put those innocent boys through hell…? I don’t really want to get so far afield of the Christopher Lane case, but you made the statement above, and I do not recall the circumstances described.

          Your comparison of the FBI to the source you linked to is quite a reach. While no source is perfect, a source that can neither spell nor use tense properly is not exactly what one might consider to be a highly reliable one. If you find such a source to be reliable, and equally or more reliable than the FBI, that is of course your prerogative.

          I look forward to your reply.

          • HonestDebate1

            Your effort to change the subject and ignore the numerous documented examples of hate is truly despicable. If you don’t have a comment relating to the thread, please go play in your own sandbox.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            As I have been almost entirely focused on the issues involved in the Christopher Lane case, your claim that I have made an “effort to change the subject” is nonsensical. Your use of the word “despicable,” and your continued failure to answer simple, direct questions, does nothing to advance your positions, and further diminishes your credibility, and your reputation, such as they are.

          • HonestDebate1

            My comment is about the press, the culture, the double standard and the hideous efforts to ignore the terrible place we find ourselves in regarding race. It is not about Chris Lane.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are free to be a hateful liar. Please note, I didn’t call you a hateful liar.

            What a silly girl you are.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            One understands your need to distract, and to avoid questions, as you are completely unable to support your positions.

          • HonestDebate1

            You are the distractor who has not even addressed my positions. This is what you do. I won’t play. Think what you will.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response. Again, I hope you are enjoying your Sunday.

            I am happy to address your positions. Please list them. If it’s not too much trouble, please discuss how you arrived at your positions, and present any evidence that supports your positions.

          • HonestDebate1

            Enough with the homework assignments, my comment that started this thread is clear even for the less nuanced.

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – TYFYR.

            It’s unfortunate that you are so stubborn in your response.

            You indicated a desire for me to address your positions, and yet when you were politely asked to “Please list them,” and “If it’s not too much trouble,” to indicate how you arrived at them, and to present evidence supporting them, you have stubbornly refused.

            This is not “honest debate” in any way, shape, or form, sir.

            As to your original comment – in an effort to avoid misinterpretation and/or misunderstanding, I have asked you seven questions about it, which you have also stubbornly refused to answer in a forthright manner. I am renewing all of these questions, and ask for your forthright answers to each and every one:

            1. How do you define the term “race hustling”?

            2. Do you include Rush Limbaugh, Allen West, Fox and Friends, The Daily Caller, White House correspondent Ed Henry of Fox News, the Drudge Report, and many others, as part of the “The race hustling press”?

            AND

            1. You wrote ”I am directing the question at those who disingenuously cite the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie.” To which of the three questions you posed prior to that statement are you referring?

            2. Are you referring to [hennorama] as one of “those who disingenuously cite the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie”?

            3. If the answer to question 2. is “yes,” will you please provide your reasoning and/or evidence that [hennorama] has “cite[d] the DA’s statement as evidence there is no tie”?

            4. Again, if the answer to question 2. is “yes,” will you please provide your reasoning and/or evidence that [hennorama] has indicated that “there is no tie” between the killing of Christopher Lane, and the killing of Trayvon Martin (assuming that is what you meant by “there is no tie”)?

            5. Can you provide a basis for your statement “the FBI … released photos of what they said were Marathon Bomber suspects and put those innocent boys through hell…? I don’t really want to get so far afield of the Christopher Lane case, but you made the statement above, and I do not recall the circumstances described.

            I look forward to your forthright answers to these questions, so that I may address the remainder of your original comment. If you are unwilling or unable to clarify your comments when questioned about them, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to address your comments in a comprehensive manner.

            Please demonstrate that you are actually interested in “honest debate” by answering the questions above in a clear, direct, and forthright manner. In other words, be open, honest, frank, straightforward, candid, and, most importantly, not evasive in any way.

          • HonestDebate1

            I could not possibly care less if you reply. I am criticizing you for replying without addressing the issues I raised. I’ll repeat, If you don’t have a comment relating to the thread, please go play in your own sandbox.

          • hennorama

            Debate Not, He – yes, yes, of course — you couldn’t care less, you regret engaging, I’m not worth your time … have I forgotten anything?

            Curious how your replies keep right on coming, though, isn’t it?

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s not about me.

          • hennorama

            [Alrighty then]

            I have to admit, the G.S. R-O-M selections can come in handy.

          • HonestDebate1

            And my replies have what to do with my concern about whether you reply?

          • hennorama

            Debates Not, He – Quoting you, if I may be so bold:

            “If you don’t have a comment relating to the thread, please go play in your own sandbox.”

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m sorry I hurt your feelings Hennon but the world (or this blog) does not revolve around you. You do realize I started this thread don’t you? I am playing in my own sandbox and you are just looking silly.

            I’ll give you a hint about race hustlers, Consider Rush, Allen West and Ed Henry and then think the opposite.

          • hennorama

            ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

    • brettearle

      SO WONDERFUL TO KNOW THAT HD POLLUTES THIS THREAD WITH WEBSITES THAT, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, SUFFER FROM FLAWS IN THEIR JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY BY COMPARISON TO PRINT.

      “The Examiner” IS AN ELECTRONIC RAG.

      Citing “The Examiner” to “On Point” commenters is almost like offering a drink to someone with cirrhosis of the Liver.

      That sort of Electronic Fertilizer makes Fox News seem like the “Wall Street Journal”.

      • HonestDebate1

        C’mon Brettearle, I expect more out of you than that. Are you implying the Examiner manufactured all the instances of revenge for Trayvon beatings? Did they hack the websites of all the newspapers they linked? Did they make the whole thing up? Really Brettearle, really? What else can you be saying?

        • 1Brett1

          The Examiner doesn’t simply report incidents found in other news outlets, it is tying them together and weaving them into a narrative, often emphasizing the speculative/unverified parts of other publications that reinforce their narrative, through distortions, making relationships where none exist, pandering to ideological loyalties, making associations that rely on criticisms of Obama, etc..

          Does any crime by a black person perpetrated on a white person translate into a “Trayvon Martin revenge killing”? If commentary/op-ed publications will purposely omit information to distort/create a narrative, it is also reasonable to assume others will report, without citation, what “witnesses” have said. In all of these links to other publications, all relationships to a “revenge” crime pertain to a “witness” saying something happened making them “revenge” crimes, and these witness observations go unsupported/unsubstantiated. Can you verify any of these “witness observations” with police reports that corroborate their assertions?

          I have to say, you sure seem to stay hopped up about any crime committed by a black person that you can latch onto, and for the purposes of some effort to continue your ever-present diatribe about black on white crime. It would be funny if it weren’t so relentless, agitatedly obsessive (meaning you seem to stay agitated at a certain high pitch) and domineering of practically every topic on this forum for the past couple of months.

          • HonestDebate1

            I provided the narrative not the Examiner. I should have given huffpo links because you guys will latch on to anything (those that can comprehend) to distract from my point. So I am going to remove the link that simply fleshes things out a bit. It won’t change the gist of my comment it will just remove the excuse to deflect.

            “Does any crime by a black person perpetrated on a white person translate into a “Trayvon Martin revenge killing”?”

            Where do you get this stuff? That’s stupid. Don’t even try to understand what I am getting at, it’s over your head.

          • 1Brett1

            You think The Examiner is not providing a narrative? Practically every word in every sentence of every paragraph is loaded and a characterization that promotes a slanted view…maybe it’s a “forrest” for the trees thing?

            You seem to be blinded by any commentary/blog/editorial where they say a crime is a “Trayvon Martin revenge killing.” This stuff gets spoon fed to you and you swallow it whole, letting it go down easy peasy…Okay. And you say that others are manipulated by media? Now, that would be funny of you weren’t so pathetically wound up about your views on race; it’s as if something in you has snapped, become unhinged.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then, but it’s not about me.

      • HonestDebate1

        My comment was about much more that what the Examiner reported. Nobody but nobody will go there. Why?

        • 1Brett1

          Maybe nobody will “take the bait”? You often claim not to be “taking the bait” by not responding; are others’ behaviors to be interpreted differently than yours?

          Your incessant obsessiveness about liberal media ginning up tensions and being responsible for black on white “revenge” violence is almost as repugnant and predictable as your constant drum beating about blacks committing crime against whites because of liberal Democratic policy, blacks having an unrealistic sense of entitlement, white guilt giving blacks a pass, and so on, ad nauseam. You really began repeating yourself months ago, so why would anyone want to go around and around with you about your broken record on race relations? Did you ever consider that your opinions on race aren’t quite as valuable, insightful and worthy of examination as you believe they are?

          • HonestDebate1

            “…by not responding: are others’ behaviors to be interpreted differently than yours?”

            Er… ugh… Brett, they ARE responding.

            I wrote: “To be clear, I blame the murderers but the press and pop culture idiots like Oprah and others have a big hand in creating the volatile situation.”

            There is creating the volatile situation and there are the acts. That’s two things.

            I tried to be clear even for the less nuanced but I can only go so far. I can’t dumb it down enough for you to get the point.

          • 1Brett1

            Hey, you were the one whining loudly about nobody (“nobody but nobody will go there”) addressing your point.

            In reading your comments last night when I got home, I laughed out loud a few times. You seem to stay hopped up all the time now about your race stuff. You clearly need help…it is amazing that you feel as though others are obsessed with race. I’ve not seen a person of your age lacking in such self-awareness.

          • HonestDebate1

            After a year of obsessing over manufactured racism in the Trayvon Martin case with show after show on OP, with riots, with revenge for Travon beatings, with the pop culture (Oprah, Law and Order, etc.) piling on, with a post office mural in the Florida capitol depicting Zimmerman shooting MLK it seems to me i am on the right sight of the issue by showing outrage instead of making excuses. I don’t apologize.

            I am obsessed with the obsession with race in lieu of honest debate. I don’t expect you to understand.

            I am not the only one making this point, I am not the only one whose point is being ignored. Nobody will go there, certainly not you. How can you not be embarrassed? How can you look in the mirror?

          • 1Brett1

            Your first paragraph is funny, almost the exact tactic used in The Examiner; in fact, you are much better at it than the writers at The Examiner…I mean with practically every show in the last year on OP being about Trayvon Martin’s killing, a year of nonstop rioting in the streets, white people having to stay huddled in their homes, afraid to go out for fear of being revenge killed by marauding blacks, the President saying Zimmerman might as well have assassinated him, why is not everyone outraged?!?! And here all I and all liberals have done has been to give every murdering, rioting, robbing, raping black man a pass!!! You are brave not to apologize and to stand on principle, you are a principled person who will risk a lot, though, including one’s own namesake to get the message out to the people, even if you have to run up and down your driveway trying to pick up a wifi signal (and even with gas being at Obama prices!!!) !! Hehehehe…

            The media will latch on to a story and run it in the ground, sure; it’s part of their desire to fill the 24/7 news cycle, but it is not to be conflated with your personal obsessions, unless of course you are either trying desperately to sell something or are truly mentally disturbed; only you know for sure what the reasons are for your obsessions. Yet, you are not a business/industry trying to capture an audience in any remote legitimate sense, so I’d say your personal obsession (as you admit it to be) is just plainly disturbed and sad; to what extent your obsessions affect your personal life I can not say as I don’t know you.

            These other stories you and right-wing media are trying to gin up as being national stories are just local, garden-variety crime stories of robbery, violence, etc. Whether the Martin killing was over covered and too much attention was paid to it is another argument altogether, and at some point it would have been worthy of a conversation (with someone other than you, of course), but your tit-for-tat approach of “what about this robbery in Oklahoma,” etc., “compared to the media’s coverage of Trayvon Martin’s killing” to keep your need to continue talking about the Martin killing is childish/silly. If you are so concerned then why don’t you use your energies to petition some right-wing advocacy groups to organize protests and rallies to bring these to a head and have them prosecuted–no, wait they are already being prosecuted, there’s no need for rallies to achieve that. Still, it seems you are the quintessential arm-chair, ranting activist; you could be organizing some kooky activist movement of your own instead of spending your days and nights typing away at this or that violent crime you found that happened somewhere. Why are you chicken to do the hard work?

            Your second paragraph is a hoot, and it will go in the “hall of fame of ridiculous Gregg quotes.”

            “I am obsessed with the obsession with race in lieu of honest debate.”

            However, it needs of few more “obsessions”! I think I’ll take some poetic license here and quote you as saying, “I am obsessed with the obsession of obsessing about race while black people continue to beat, murder, rape, generally intimidate and otherwise game the system to get free stuff in lieu of anyone wanting to debate me.”

            And, of course, your last paragraph is classic, as well. No one has used any argument against you that you are alone in your desire to gin up these racially-charged rants. But, hey, at least you have company…all the more reason for you to organize and get a group going. I’ll bet there are White Supremacist groups out there right now who hold the very same views you do; you could contact them?! You’ve already said in the past that you don’t dismiss someone’s point just because you disagree with them on other things/don’t like their overall positions.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m sorry you spent all that time, but it’s not about me.

          • 1Brett1

            No time spent, so no worries…you’ve spent so much time on your rants, many might have the same thoughts of being sorry for you. I don’t; this is obviously a leisure time activity (ranting and raving about black on white crime and media coverage of black on white robberies, rapes, violence, etc.). Hey, whatever floats your boat, I say. I just hope that your obsession with race doesn’t prevent you from normal everyday activities.

          • HonestDebate1

            I actually feel like this is a crucial issue. If I spend time it’s on the issue. I try not to write lengthy 7 or 8 paragraph comments about whoever started a particular thread. At this point there are 12 replies, not counting my efforts to steer the conversation back to the issues I raised. They are all about me. It’s not about me.

  • ExcellentNews

    We Americans are so naïve and GULLIBLE. I’m willing to bet you that Private Bradley Manning was pumped full of psychotropic drugs and brainwashed while in detention, with the specific purpose to condition him as “gender-confused”.

    Who would do that? On my! You seem to forget the insider gang of dollar-guzzling crony contractors, themselves ex-CIA or ex-Army. You seem to forget their foreign “friends” in high places, who love nothing better than stash dollars in numbered accounts. Roaches hate being exposed to the light…

    Why such an outrageous revenge? A “heart attack” in prison would have raised some eyebrows. It is a much “better” revenge to do something like that to him, and at the same time, discredit his actions who exposed the abuse and idiocy of a foreign policy that has cost nearly 2 TRILLION to peons like you and me.

    • brettearle

      Why don’t you and Mel Gibson make a movie together?

      It might make less money than the value of your arcane beliefs, demonstrated above.

  • Mike_Card

    That Oklahoma senator Tom Coburn tells his constituents that, “I’m no lawyer, but I’m sure that President Obama is close to constitutionally impeached.”
    These are the types of Republicans that are being sent to Washington to either enact stupid stuff, or to refuse to consider important issues. Have we really digressed this far?

    • brettearle

      Yes we have.

      The aggregate of:

      Tea Party recalcitrance;

      a desperate need to regain Power;

      out and out Racism;

      branding the Right’s political adversary in Power, as The Other;

      branding the Right’s political adversary in Power as the Corrupt Other and as the Incompetent Other.

      All these combined factors, listed above, fill the GOP echo chamber with stifling air that is comprised of rancid spiritual particulates, equivalent to carcinogenic smog, acid rain, and asbestos.

      • pete18

        Drop “Other” from “Corrupt” and “Incompetent” and you’d actually have it right.

    • 228929292AABBB

      I’m no big fan of the current Republican philosophy, for sure. But let’s think for a second about how crazy it really is. President Obama swore to defend and uphold the Constitution. NSA wiretaps, Guantanamo, read the Bill of Rights and ask yourself whether there isn’t actually a case against him on legitimate grounds. The saddest part of the Obama impeachment threats is he’s not a terrible candidate for it, contrary to all our hopes for him. I’m a lot more worried about his effect on the Constitution than I am about Bill Clinton enjoying a secretary or two.

    • OnPointComments

      As the number of instances of President Obama ignoring the Constitution and laws grows longer, it makes me wonder at what point he will be impeached.

      “OBAMA PRESIDENCY A LENGTHENING LEGACY OF LAWLESSNESS”

      http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/081613-667885-obama-presidency-leaves-a-lawless-legacy.htm?p=full

      Excerpt:

      Last time we checked, the Constitution requires the president to “faithfully execute the law.” That’s no editorial opinion, but Article 2, Section 3, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution, which states that “(The President) shall take care that the Laws be faithfully executed.”

      The article lists 13 examples of the Obama administration violating the law.

      There is no rule of law under The Imperial Presidency of Barack Obama:

      “CAN OBAMA WRITE HIS OWN LAWS?”

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-can-obama-write-his-own-laws/2013/08/15/81920842-05df-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html

  • 228929292AABBB

    The college cost issue is simple to solve. Have the schools co-sign the loans with the student. If what they’re offering is worth what they’re charging, they shouldn’t have any problem doing it.

    • fun bobby

      I wish obama came up with that

    • StilllHere

      How would this work with a public university? It becomes the state’s obligation? Why would the university’s employees care?

  • HonestDebate1

    Glad to see you JGC.

  • JONBOSTON

    Almost a surreal quality to the selection of discussion topics on Friday’s news roundup. The mideast is exploding, black youths are committing unspeakingly evil morally depraved acts, Obamacare is coming apart at the seams, and the US economy is experiencing the worst recovery from a recession since the Great Depression. While all of this is happening, Obama is vacationing in Martha’s Vineyard and playing golf or making a college campus tour to discuss the high cost of college tuition. Granted it’s a problem. But I doubt it’s on anyone’s list of most pressing problems facing this country. And I must confess- I can’t stand any longer seeing the endless parade of robotic clueless idiots standing behind Obama as he gives another useless forgettable speech. Not when people are dying ( again) from sarin nerve gas in Syria ; Egypt is in flames ; Iran quietly continues to build the bomb; Russia and China ( and probably the rest of the world) thumb their noses at an increasingly pathetic and irrelevant Obama, and Iraq and Afghanistan drift slowly into chaos despite the sacrifice of thousands of American lives and dollars. And to think, wasn’t it a year ago that the mainstream media ( and Hollywood) promoted to the American public that foreign affairs was Obama’s strong suit? Better they should ask, including NPR, what in fact is Obama’s foreign policy? Is it leading from behind? Is it leading after the UN Security council gives its blessing? Is it setting ( erasable) red lines in Syria ? Is it saying pretty please to Russia’s Putin? Is it doing anything at all? It’s laughable if it wasn’t so sad. Rather than discuss any of this, On Point discusses what to call a mentally disturbed private in the Army who while serving the US Army in a theater of war betrays his country and his uniform. It’s so telling about the cultural and moral decay of this once great nation that Bradley Manning’s sexual identity issue is discussed by the panel while nothing is said about the Spokane 89 yr old (battle of Okinawa survivor) bludgeoned to death by 2 black moral barbarian youths –or the thrill kill in Oklahoma city of an Aussie baseball player–or the shooting to death of a 15 month old baby in Georgia during a botched hold up of his mother-up. All black on white killings.

    Or what about the state of the economy? Obama likes to talk about income inequality, but what really matters far more is the actual income of the typical American. And how has the typical American household income fared on Obama’s watch? Since June 2009 when the” recovery” began, the typical American household income has not only dropped–it has dropped more than twice as much ( 4.4%) as it did during the recession (1.8%).

    • fun bobby

      once we are all broke we will income equality

    • stephenreal

      Well he did call the bottom of the stock market which impressed me deeply since I started buying back in upon President Obama’s suggestion.

  • JONBOSTON

    If our affirmative action president were to receive an economic report card for the first 5 years of his pathetic presidency, here’s what it would look like if the sycophants in the mainstream media were ever to say anything:
    (1) When Obama entered the White House, 60.6% of working age Americans had a job; today only 58.7%

    (2) since Obama has been president, 7 of 8 jobs that have been “created” are part-time jobs
    (3 the number of full-time workers in the US is 6.0m below 2007′s high
    (4) it’s astounding but 53% of all Americans earn less than $30K/yr
    (5) 40% of all workers make less than what a full time minimum wage worker made in 1968
    (6)When Obama started in office unemployment average duration was 19.8 weeks; today it’s 36.6 weeks
    (7)during his first 4 years as president, the number of Americans dropped from the labor force is 8.3million
    (8)the poverty rate today is 16.1%-that is higher than when the War on Poverty began in 1965
    (9 )during Obama’s first term, the number of Americans on food stamps increased by 11,000 per day; the number on food stamps has gone from 32 million to 47 million
    median household income has fallen 4 consecutive years
    (10) today more than 1 million public school students are homeless. This is the first time that has ever happened in US history.
    (11) 76% of all Americans are living paycheck to paycheck
    (12) when Obama took office the debt /GDP ratio was below 70%; today it’s 101%

    And I could go on. Instead I ask you –why do you never hear about any of this in the mainstream media? More disturbing, how could there be so many fools in our electorate that they voted for such an incompetent?

    • HonestDebate1

      Nice job Jon. I read your comment below and thought about how hard it is to encapsulate the massive disaster that is the Obama Administration. It really is quite a daunting task and I appreciate your efforts. But the reality is that between your two most excellent comments you have only scratched the surface.

      • JONBOSTON

        Thanks Greg. I lived in Washington DC during the Carter administration and thought we’d never have a president worse than Carter . Little did I know.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          Don’t blame yourself, nobody could have imagined elite white boy affirmative action baby Bush, with 9/11 happening while he was readin’ “my pet goat” after being warned “bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA” and, thanks to voodoo econ, the worst economic crash since the Great Depression and massive job losses. Who knew a prez could be that bad?

          • HonestDebate1

            Bizarre.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        How did you like an admin with 9/11, Iraq, and the 2008 crash? Was that a “massive disaster”, or are you just pursuing a dishonest debate?

        • HonestDebate1

          My problems with Bush were his spending, his immigration policy, Harriet Meyers and his absolute refusal to hit back. He let others define him unchallenged. Having said that , I miss him. Hell, I miss Clinton for that matter.

    • fun bobby

      but the media told me we had a recovery

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Huh? The privileged white boy affirmative action candidate, with a CEO/Governor father, lost the election.

      • JONBOSTON

        Are you referring to the affirmative action oligarch? His mistake was over estimating the intelligence of the average voter. As I’ve quoted before :

        “The danger to America is not Barak Obama but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgement to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and and far more serious than Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive Obama , who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools , such as those who made him their president”.

        Tom –I still have hope for you but it’s fading.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          Romney and Bush are the ultimate affirmative action babies. With their family wealth and connections, they can do very little on their own and float to the top. No gvt program can compete with having a Governor/CEO father. I’m amazed if you don’t know that.

          Your ranting abt Obama is a bore. He’s a run of the mill conservadem, in bed with wall st. As such, yes, he hasn’t given what we really need, higher taxes on the rich and corporations, spending on infrastructure and R&D, re-regulating wall st, helping struggling Unions, etc. What do you expect from a righty conservadem? He did stabilize the crashing economy with the ARRA and took a baby step toward fixing health care with the ACA, so maybe he gets a “C”. However, you have the absurd position that he is worse than “F” graded W. LOL

          Here’s a simple question. What has happened on Obama’s watch worse than 9/11, the invasion of iraq, and the 2008 crash? Do you REALLY want to say he’s worse than Bush? Then you better be able to name some worse events.

          • JONBOSTON

            hopeless left wing garbage if you blame Bush for 9/11 and Lehman Bros. I can’t deal with an ideologue who spews nothing but total crap. If you believe Obama is “conservative ” then it’s ridiculous even having a dialogue with you.

            I suggest you leave your public sector union organizing job ( you must be a teacher because you seem so clueless) , start a business, learn what life , making a payroll, and taking a risk with YOUR money is truly like. I couldn’t care a damn about how Romney and Bush got where they got. Your resentment for those that have more than you is simply disgusting. Deal with it.

          • stephenreal

            Is this more moocher state thinking?

          • TomK_in_Boston

            You can’t understand responsibility for goin’ clearin’ brush in Crawford after being briefed “bin Laden Determined to Strike in USA”? You don’t even realize how pathetic you sound, as you blame Obama for everything that happened on his watch.

            You’re the one who started throwing “affirmative action president” around. If you want to be envious of people getting unfair advantages, let me remind you that my ‘ol buddy W:
            1. got into elite schools as legacy, not merit
            2. dodged vietnam draft by getting special deal to get into TANG where he shirked his duties
            3. bailed out of failed attempt at oil biz by family friends
            4. given sweetheart deal for piece of texas rangers mlb team by family friends
            5. stole 2000 election with help of daddy’s sec state as atty.

            Deal with it, guy. Having wealth and connections like a W or Mittens is 100,000,000 times more powerful than any gvt program. Bush is the ultimate affirmative action baby, and Mitt who “did it all on his own” with a Governor/CEO father is a close second.

          • JONBOSTON

            My use of the reference “affirmative action president” deals with the media’s unwillingness to judge Obama’s term in office like every other president before him. Why is this ? Because they share his liberal/ progressive agenda and more importantly, refuse to hold him to any objective performance standard for fear of being called racist.
            Tell me . Did you have a similar problem with the Kennedy’s inherited family wealth ( Caroline just was named ambassador to Japan and is reported to be worth $300M); or John Kerry’s ( and his access to the Heinz family fortune)? Or Al Gore’s golden spoon ( Daddy was Senator Gore) , elite DC prep school and Harvard and his ” well deserved and hard earned” (LOL)raking in $200m from selling his failed cable network to Al Jazera ? Or Bill Clinton (and Hillary) selling his presidency and raking in tens of millions of dollars over the past 10-15 years? Or Harry Reid becoming a multi-millionaire despite never having earned more than a Senator’s income? Or Nacy Pelosi and her multi-millionaire husband benefiting from inside info to cash in on lucrative stock deals, etc.

          • JONBOSTON

            Still waiting for a response. I guess you have no problem with liberal democrats taking other peoples money ( while democrat pols rake in millions) so long as they give it to public sector parasites, the uninformed and ill-informed ( used to be known as idiots and morons) and cronies with their hand out.

          • TomK_in_Boston

            No, I have no problem with the Constitutional mandate to “promote the general welfare”. We’re the USA, not a random collection of individuals fighting for the last dime. We’ve been doing things your way for 33 yrs and it hasn’t worked, long overdue for assigning “tax cuts ‘n deregulation” to the scrap heap of history.

            I’ve explained to you that W is the ultimate affirmative action baby. If you don’t get that in your anger and confusion, I’m not surprised.

            You do a nice job of regurgitating voodoo econ 101, I think you got almost all the words right.

          • JONBOSTON

            Regrettably “promoting the general welfare” appears to be one part of the Constitution that Obama has vigorously embraced with record numbers of people on welfare , recird numbers getting food stamps, record numbers in poverty, record numbers on social security disability, more federal workers than the population of 22 states, 120 odd federal welfare programs, etc.
            Your reflexive defense to anything said about Obama is “George Bush”. You’ve become a laughable predictable bore. Why don’t you defend Obama by defending him? Or is he so pathetic that he’s indefensible?

          • TomK_in_Boston

            I think I can handle someone who’s nothing more than a serial repeater of scripts from 1980 calling me a bore. Get back to me if you ever have an idea.

          • JONBOSTON

            Life must be getting tough as a public sector parasite. You sound testy. Is your host pushing back? I guess you’re so used to dealing with robotic idiots you can’t handle a different opinion.
            Obama isn’t just America’s first affirmative action president. He is an unmitigated disaster, much like many of your ideas. [I still laugh at your criticism with outsourcing.] Obama’s biggest “achievement” is Obamacare. What a farce now that practically everything he said about it has been shown to be a lie. And now that the bodies of hundreds of gassed Syrian children are piling up in Damascus and scores of Christian churches are burned out shells in Egypt , it’s getting harder and harder to find anything to write about the president that doesn’t underscore his incompetence. What do you think he’s doing now in the Situation Room while planning the Syrian response? Posing for photo ops? Playing spades , wishing another round of golf ? practicing his military salute?
            Obama’s tenure is a vast expanse of anti-achievement , a landscape of waste and ruin on every front at home and abroad, save on his ability to mobilize voters who don’t know or don’t care about the state of the country or the world. Obama’s election machine enabled him to turn out folks who simply are clueless that that nice guy in the White House hasn’t the slightest idea of how to run the country. You know , people like you!

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Got it, the president after the one that gave us 9/11, Iraq war and the 2008 economic crash is a disaster, ant the president after the one that couldn’t have got to middle management without family connections is the affirmative action president, and you don’t even realize how moronic you sound. Glad I’m not looking out of your eyeballs.

          • JONBOSTON

            Obama was elected because many voters believed ( naively) that things would be better than under Bush. I think anyone looking objectively at Obama’s term in office would regard him an abject failure. I laugh when I recall his campaign theme ” Osama and Al Quaida is dead and Detroit is alive”. Today Detroit is dead and we now learn that Obama spent much of the day playing golf and cards while Navy Seals tracked down Osama. But of course , Obama makes sure that everyone knows that he alone was responsible for killing Osama and Al Quaida . Just sickening.
            As far as Obama’s domestic record , see my list above of “accomplishments ” despite his spending $ trillions. And I never even mentioned the scandals, his selective disregard for the law and other branches of government when it suits him; resort to class warfare ( I know you love this), hyper-partisan attacks , extreme divisiveness , belief that different points of view are illegitimate, etc . Just pathetic.

      • JONBOSTON

        you’re really fixated on Romney. Do you stalk the guy?

    • jefe68

      Great example of false equivalencies twisted out of statistics. None of what you are listing here happened in a vacuum of Obama land, which is what you’re aiming for. Median wages for the middle class in this country has been flat and dropping since the 80′s. Where you been?

      It was flat during Bush’s presidency as it is now.
      What you also left out is the Great Rescission of 2008.
      It took a decade for the US to recover from the Great Depression and WW2 helped to quicken that recovery.

      The Republicans are the ones who have been chipping away at every Great Society program designed to stem the effects of poverty. The worst cases of poverty are in Red states and in the South. Kind of left that stat out.

      While I think the President does have shoulder some of the blame, (he’s a centrist Democrat with strong Wall Street leanings) the lions share is on the House and Senate Republicans who have been the party of no and obstruction. The agenda of the GOP is to make every thing you list worse, not better. That’s pretty clear to anyone who has eyes to see.

      • HonestDebate1

        Yes, Obama is putty in Mitch McConnell’s hands. Nothing will stop his efforts to make everything worse. You nailed it.

      • JONBOSTON

        If you believe Obama is a centrist democrat then it’s worthless even responding to you. You’re too far gone.

  • fun bobby

    you could get your own Geiger counter. there are also some pretty good global real time radiation maps you can look at. it does seem like japan is in a world of hurt especially if it gets worse. they don’t really have any where else to go if they irradiate the rest of their country

    • David Sky Hemp

      In this case due to air and water currents “their” country is “our” country. As for the Geiger counter I was told there are a lot of different type of counters and many types or radio active materials that may or may not show up on a novices tester. I am looking for an accurate and proffesional test we can rely on. I don’t trust the mass media reports any longer. I swam in the ocean this morning with the dolphins and still could not keep the issue out of my mind. DH Santa Cruz

      • fun bobby

        if you spend a few bucks you can buy a decent Geiger counter that should be sensitive and accurate. the real time maps are generated in different ways from different sources. japan is pretty far away even from California with ocean currents and such it should be pretty diluted by the time it gets there. if you are very concerned up your iodine consumption. I stopped buying the imported from japan sushi a while ago. at this time I would bet the stress its causing you is more toxic than any dilute cesium or whatever from japan.

  • hennorama

    Debates Not, He – Thank You For Your Response.

    You’re welcome, sir.

    Your response is a bit troubling, though. In my experience, people who regularly and professionally care for animals (zookeepers, for example) are careful to not bring animal waste into their homes or other human environments. While equine excrement is really not much of a risk to humans, there is always the “yuck” factor to consider.

    Chacun à son goût. (you can find that on m-w.com, if needed)

    It’s understandable that you might use a shovel or other scooping implement in your business, depending on the bedding material used of course, but in my experience, when a shovel is used by a practiced hand, flinging improves efficiency.

    TYAFYR.

  • hennorama

    Are humans hard-wired for racial prejudice?

    That’s the attention-grabbing title of a recent op-ed piece by Robert M. Sapolsky, in the Los Angeles Times.

    Robert M. Sapolsky is a “neuroendocrinologist, professor of biology, neuroscience, and neurosurgery at Stanford University, researcher and author” per wikipedia.com. He’s also a “MacArthur genius,” and has received many other prestigious awards and honors.

    Selected excerpts FTA:

    “The answer is more complicated than it seems.

    “Reaction to the acquittal of George Zimmerman was just the latest reminder: Race continues to divide us as a species.

    “But why? Are human brains hard-wired to notice and react to racial differences? At first glance, that’s precisely what research seems to demonstrate.

    “Some of the most compelling evidence for a hard-wired racial divide concerns a brain region called the amygdala, which plays a central role in processing fear and aggression. If you were put in a brain scanner that identifies levels of activity in different regions and shown a picture of something scary, your amygdala would leap into action, telling your heart to race and your skin to get clammy. It would also help you decide what to do next: Run like hell? Pull the trigger? Wet your pants?

    “Most regions of the brain are “told” what you are seeing only after that information has first been processed by specialized areas of the cortex — a glacially slow process (by neurobiological standards, that is; it takes about half a second). But the amygdala can get information far more quickly, through pathways that bypass those lumbering cortical regions. The amygdala can register information that appears for less than one-20th of a second, a time so short that you aren’t even aware of what you saw. And unfortunately, that information isn’t necessarily accurate.

    “So how does race enter into this picture? Numerous studies have found that if you put someone in a brain scanner and show him brief flashes (one-20th of a second) of emotionally neutral faces, the amygdala activates if the face is someone of a different race.

    “Now consider a brain region called the fusiform cortex, which specializes in detecting faces. Work by John Gabrieli at MIT shows that the fusiform isn’t as active when viewing the face of someone of another race. It’s not about novelty: Show a face with bright purple skin and there isn’t that blunting of the fusiform response. Other studies have shown that brain regions involved in empathy are more active when seeing a needle poking a finger with your own skin color than one of another race.

    “All this plays out behaviorally too. In work by Joshua Correll at the University of Colorado, volunteers played a video game in which they rapidly saw pictures of people holding either a gun or a cellphone, with the instruction to shoot only those with guns. When white participants (including police officers) were shown an African American, they tended to shoot faster and were more likely to mistake a cellphone for a gun.

    “All this is not only depressing, it’s puzzling, if you think about it.

    “[However, there's some] most heartening news: These brain responses can be fairly easily overridden. Chad Forbes at the University of Delaware demonstrated that if whites viewed a black face while hearing loud rap music, the amygdaloid response got even bigger. But put that same face over death-metal music — associated with negative white stereotypes — and you don’t get the same amygdala reaction.

    “Moreover, the brain’s response to race can be overridden by re-categorizing people. As reported by Robert Kurzban at the University of Pennsylvania, subjects shown a film clip of a mixed-race crowd of people tended to unconsciously categorize people in the crowd by race. But if people in that crowd were wearing one of two different sports jerseys, subjects categorized them by team affiliation instead of by race. In other words, if the brain evolved to make automatic racial distinctions, it evolved even more strongly to differentiate between Dodgers fans and Giants fans.

    “Finally, work by Susan Fiske at Princeton found something else that can override the amygdala response to another race. Subjects were asked to decide whether people in the pictures they were shown would like a particular vegetable. In other words, they were asked to imagine the tastes of the people, to think about what they’d buy in a market, and to imagine them relishing a favorite vegetable over dinner. In that exercise, even if the face a subject saw was of another race, the amygdala wasn’t activated.

    “In other words, simply thinking about someone as a person rather than a category makes that supposedly brain-based automatic xenophobia toward other races evaporate in an instant. Maybe there’s hope for us as a species after all.”

    ===========

    “…simply thinking about someone as a person rather than a category makes that supposedly brain-based automatic xenophobia toward other races evaporate in an instant.”

    Imagine that – all it takes to override racial prejudice is to think about someone as a person.

    The lesson: Thought and reason can easily overcome hard-wired reactions.

    There is indeed hope for us all.

    Sources:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jul/28/opinion/la-oe-sapolsky-brain-and-race-20130728

    http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/a/a_01/a_01_cr/a_01_cr_ana/a_01_cr_ana.html#limbique (illustrations and of the human brain)

    http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_04/i_04_cr/i_04_cr_peu/i_04_cr_peu.html (specifics about the amygdala)

    • brettearle

      I wonder if preprogrammed responses, we might make, in some of the studies above, are more dependent on our life experience/perceptions and the power of suggestion and the power of subliminal suggestion:

      stimuli that are bombarding us with cues and notions, thousands, each day….

      rather than a basic wired-in biological response.

      The studies that might involve intrinsic and innate responses–based on a baseline wired-in biological response– may be statistically different:

      To wit….

      [1] Observations of the relative ease, sometimes, of interplay, between children, of mixed race, in nursery and kindergarten, in some schools and in some communities.

      (assuming the teachers haven’t already found ways to separate and to alienate [with their "grubby little psyches" of separateness and otherness])

      [2] And, of course, connected to [1], via example, is the famous song in “South Pacific”–where Rodgers and Hammerstein present a poignant and instructive tune:

      Sung by Lieutenant Cable

      [trivia Hen: What famous play-into-a movie, did the guy who played Lieutenant Cable, star in, as a gay tennis player?.....if I am not mistaken and when is BrettEarle ever mis-nehmen? No fair(s) lookin' it up, eeeeither....]

      “You’ve got to taught before it’s too late, to hate all the people your relatives hate, you’ve got to be carefully taught.”

      “Yes, you’ve got to be taught, before it’s too late, before you’re 6, or 7, or 8…..you’ve got to be carefully taught.”

      Your witness….Councilor….

      • hennorama

        brettearle – TYFYR.

        I’m stumped by your trivia question, but didn’t ‘Strangers On A Train’ involve a tennis player? Consider that as my guess.

        Please allow the omitted portions of the op-ed to serve as my response to the rest of your post (you’ve already read the first sentence, which serves as a lead-in):

        “All this is not only depressing, it’s puzzling, if you think about it.

        “For the majority of human history, people lived in hunter-gatherer bands where they never met anyone of another race. The nearest such person was likely to be hundreds or thousands of miles away. It’s only extremely recently, in evolutionary terms, that humans have become mobile enough to encounter other races. Why, then, should our brains have evolved to have such automatic, inevitable, aversive processing of people of other races when such encounters have played virtually no role in how humans evolved? The answer is, they haven’t. The aversive processing is neither automatic nor inevitable.

        “For starters, all the studies discussed found individual variation. Not everyone has an overactive amygdala, an underactive fusiform or an itchier trigger finger when seeing someone of another race. Who are the exceptions? Predictably, people brought up in more racially diverse settings, those with friends or romantic partners of another race.

        “And even for those who don’t live multi-culti lives, the xenophobia isn’t inevitable. It can be blunted by context. In Correll’s work, if the person with the gun or cellphone is pictured in a neutral background, whites show a shooting bias toward blacks. Use a scary background in the picture instead and the bias disappears; subjects now show equally rapid-fire judgment about whom to shoot. In the amygdala-activation studies, it matters who is pictured: White subjects don’t have amygdaloid activation when viewing a picture of, say, Bill Cosby. (When you read this literature, you realize that Bill Cosby is God’s gift to scientists doing this research.)”

        • brettearle

          Tea and Sympathy

          • hennorama

            Merci bien, monsieur.

            I haven’t seen it. Is it worth a look?

          • brettearle

            Nah….

          • hennorama

            brettearle – I personally feel that one can never be either too droll or too far-fetched when attempts at humor or imagination or connections are involved.

            As evidence, I’ve made up the term “ad oppugnandam attack,” and the ironic construct “1Nastee Hotbed,” and translated odd rhyming phrases from English into German. (I’m most proud of “Wir genießen einen guten Garnelen kocht,” BTW.)

            Thanks for the tip as to T & S. Clearly there’s a reason it’s not available from Netflix.

      • 1Brett1

        Enjoyed your comment…I know the movie you are hinting toward; I’ll not give it away, though. (The title beginning in “T” and ending in “y”?)

        I am inclined to respond to hennorama’s comment in a similar way as you have. I see these sorts of reactions to the “other” as learned behaviors rather than anything hard wired. The tests henn mentions I feel are measuring a response that is based on behaviors that have been learned amid the conditions of environment (and children learn very quickly, both incidentally and through passive, casual observation of even the most fleeting moments, and even on a level that is almost seemingly precognitive at times; at least they often will respond based on nonverbal cues).

        My observations of children’s natural responses to people who look different than they is one of curiosity rather than natural fear, anxiety or animosity. Children also cue off of other children and especially adults who are present. If there is apprehension/reluctance displayed by others toward a person, say, with different colored skin/language/dress than what the child is used to, he/she will react in a similar display as others toward the “new” person. If others are friendly and welcoming to the person who is different, even neutral, the child will be friendly or at the least curious.

        • brettearle

          Appreciate you liking my comment.

          Your observations, above–with regard to children picking up cues from others–speaks to the more complex (and sometimes even vicious) phenomenon of gossip or information that is unverified… that us adults are perennially guilty of finding credibility in.

          [Is it part of the "Go-along to Get-along" behavior, when the children respond to cues from others?]

          Obama’s friend and ex-colleague, Cass Sunstein, (who was almost tapped for the Highest Court), wrote a book about gossip–where, I believe, he claimed that most people believe gossip.

          It is time that all of us think for ourselves. I, myself, have been a destructive victim of gossip, more than once.

          You have absolutely got the Trivia Question right. The play might have been about Bill Tilden (not sure; haven’t checked it out)–and it may have been written by Noel Coward??

    • HonestDebate1

      “…all it takes to override racial prejudice is to think about someone as a person.”

      That’s what I’ve been pounding forever. It certainly does not jive with affirmative action which cannot possibly work if you don’t consider the color of skin first and foremost. It definitely would have changed the entire dynamic of the Trayvon/Zimmerman saga if no one had thought of them as a black man and a white hispanic man. How do we do that with the press beating the drum? But really, this is old news, MLK Jr. summed it up best 50 years ago this week, You know, the content of character thing.

      • hennorama

        Debates Not, He – one is inclined to challenge YOU to examine the content of your own character.

        As to your quoting me, “…all it takes to override racial prejudice is to think about someone as a person,” then laughably writing [That's what I've been pounding forever.] – what a joke! You continue on to further hilarity, by writing “…affirmative action … cannot possibly work if you don’t consider the color of skin first and foremost.”

        You demonstrate the hilarity of your joke, and your obsession with race, by having written such things as :

        “If you want to talk about race then be honest and confront the fact that black on white racism is a far worse problem today that the inverse. Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites than vice versa,”

        AND

        “Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then [sic] vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.”

        Those last two sentences are, as you well know, a MISquote of a white separatist publication, ‘The Color Of Crime.’ You have repeated these spurious claims multiple times. Your MISquote is even more vile than the original white separatist pseudo-statistics, as it is unequivocal.

        Take a good look at the content of your character, sir, and then explain why you wrote that MISquote, and all of the following about “blacks”:

        “I conclude blacks are far more likely to rape whites than vice versa”

        “The murderers had numerous photos of Trayvon Martin on his Facebook page. We already have numerous accounts of revenge beatings by blacks on whites for Trayvon. I suppose we’ll find out soon enough if this was a revenge murder. It sure seems so.”

        “The most common form of interracial hate crime is black on white.”

        “We have convinced blacks they are being wronged, they are being oppressed, they are incapable of voting, they need a leg up and racists neighborhood watchmen are hunting them down.”

        “if you are white you are far far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime perpetrated but [sic] a black than vise versa [sic].”

        “blacks are more likey [sic] to victimize whites than vice versa.”

        “A white woman is far far more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted black man that the opposite.”

        (That one’s true, as there are few reported instances of ‘black’ men being raped or sexually assaulted by ‘white’ women.)

        “A white person is far far more likely (about 39 times, 50 by per capita) to be a victim of violent crime perpetrated by a black.”

        “a great case for the fact whites are far more likely to be victims of black violence than vice versa.”

        “the fact that if you are white you are far far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime perpetrated by a black than vise versa. The numbers are especially shocking when you consider Blacks comprise only 12 or 13% of the population.”

        “What I am concerned about is violence. The epidemic of blacks forming mobs and spreading mayhem is troubling. I believe it is enabled by a lack of outrage rooted in white guilt making excuses. Blacks are not expected to be good citizen by liberals.”

        “Time after time the perpetrators are black,”

        One could go on and on, but space and time are limited.

        In closing, you might examine the content of your own character by answering the following two questions:

        1. What is your fascination with crimes that have victims of one race and offenders of another race?

        2. Do you think such interracial crimes are indicative of racism on the part of each and every one of the offenders?

  • hennorama

    David Sky Hemp – you’re right to be somewhat concerned about seafood, but any radioactive water that may be released will be highly diluted by the vast amount of water in the Pacific long before it reaches Santa Cruz.

    One unanticipated silver lining from the Fukushima disaster is that biologists have been able to use minute traces of cesium-134 and cesium-137, both known waste products from Fukushima, to track the migrations of various marine life across the Pacific.

    Check it:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/08/science/la-sci-fukushima-radiation-20130225

    As an aside – how are things at the Surf Museum at Lighthouse Point?

  • stephenreal

    There is a reason why the Republican party lost 5 out of the last 6 popular votes for the President of the United States and the trend line is only getting worse.

    Republicans have an incredibly hard time recruiting anyone except angry old white guys and if one reads through these comments they can not stand colored people or any women with an opinion.

    And because the party base deeply dislikes minorities especially hispanics, blacks and asians they will continue to be crushed in the polls.

    There is a reason why one gets what one deserves especially when you do it to yourself.

    • pete18

      Funny how you use a race based broad brush to critique
      what you think is other people using a race based broad brush.

      • stephenreal

        I call it winning elections. some call it “ginning up the base”. Either way it’s all about political control and running the country with policies of ones choosing.

        The Republican party is deep political kimshi. The fellas better learn Spanish.

        Pew Research Center is my goto site. Those guys have this polling and trend line stuff down to a science.

        • pete18

          I don’t disagree with some of your election analysis about the Repubs needing to appeal to a larger percentage of minority voters but framing the them as “angry old white guys” that deeply dislike blacks, Hispanics, women and Asians is not only wrong and it’s a complete racist stereo type.

          • stephenreal

            Well not according to the Pew Research Center but my “angry old white guy” charge is hardly an original thought but it is clearly back by the Pew Research group.

          • pete18

            “but my “angry old white guy” charge is hardly an original thought”

            Oh, it must not be a racist and stereotyping caricature then.

            “but it is clearly back by the Pew Research group.”

            Did the Pew poll have a question about being angry and disliking minorities?

            Are you really that obtuse, or do you just not like having the mirror turned back on you?

          • jefe68

            It’s funny how white guys are now complaining about racism when it’s pointed out that a lot of white men are pretty entitled. The right reverse racism charge is interesting but all so fake.

          • pete18

            The comment was that the Republicans as a whole were angry white men who disliked minorities. Stephenreal claims that this is not a racial stereotype and there was a Pew survey that somehow confirmed this. Are you agreeing with him?

          • stephenreal

            Nationally, Romney won 59 percent of the white vote, a towering twenty-point margin over Obama.
            http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/results/president/exit-polls

          • pete18

            Most black Americans voted for Barack Obama, this can be shown by a
            number of polls. That proves that blacks are careless about money and
            have a hostility towards white people.

          • stephenreal

            This is about saving the Republican party. The colored community is deeply intertwined with any future success. This all about winning elections if really care about policy change anything else seems moot at face value.

          • pete18

            I give you credit for working so hard to deflect from the point.

            Observing that Republicans need to improve on attracting minority voters both for their future success and the good of the country, something that I completely agree with, is a completely different thing from claiming that because the majority of the voters that they attracted in the
            last presidential election were white males that somehow proves that the
            republicans are driven by “angry old white men who are hostile to minorities.”

            This is a fact-free assumption of motives based voting patterns that are part of an ugly trifecta of talking points used by the democrats and their minions as a political tool. The other two are “the republicans are waging a war on women,” and the completely laughable and steeped in denial, “the criticisms from the right about Obama are driven by racism.”

            Please prove that you are not painting with a racist, broad brush by giving us evidence showing that the bulk of Republican voters are unjustifiably angry or hostile to minorities. Maybe you can start by showing us those questions from the Pew poll.

          • stephenreal

            You are conflating analysis with personal opinion when all that matters to me is winning elections.

            race baiting the colored community is not helping the party cause and quite frankly it is becoming a political albatross around the party’s neck.

          • pete18

            So if I say, Democrats need to do better attracting white women, and they clearly are angry and hostile to white women (because Romney won the majority of white women) you’d agree with me?

          • stephenreal

            Obama won women 54 to 45 nationally, not so far off his 56 to 43 showing in 2008. Obama won women in every swing state, besting Romney with female voters 53 to 46 in Florida, 55 to 44 in Ohio, 58 to 42 in New Hampshire, 51 to 49 in North Carolina, 54 to 45 in Virginia, 57 to 42 in Wisconsin, and 59 to 40 in Iowa.

            I can not agree with you after tallying these numbers.

          • pete18

            I said “white women” not all women.

            According to your logic and methods of analysis, there is no doubt that democrats are angry and hostile towards them.

          • pete18

            You’re still avoiding the question.

          • jefe68

            How is it a racial stereotype if that’s how a large segment of middle class conservative whites are voting?

          • pete18

            Most black Americans voted for Barack Obama, this can be shown by a number of polls. That proves that blacks are careless about money and have a hostility towards white people.

          • StilllHere

            They tend to vote as a group based on superficial qualities. Hmmm.

          • HonestDebate1

            it’s all about the color of skin with you isn’t it. Who was more “entitled” than Obama?

          • Ray in VT

            How about Romney and Bush?

          • stephenreal

            Steve Schmidt on just how much the country has changed over the last 24 years.

            “Romney got about 60 percent of the white vote…” but it brought him only slightly more than 200 electoral votes. The last time a presidential candidate got 60 percent of the white vote was in 1988 with George H.W. Bush—and that number of whites brought him 426 electoral votes in a landslide win over Michael Dukakis. Schmidt called this transformation “stunning.”

  • OnPointComments

    A DISCUSSION ON RACE, CRIME AND THE INCONVENIENT FACTS

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-viewpoint/082613-668778-epidemic-of-white-on-black-violence-is-a-fraud.htm?p=full

    Excerpt:

    Here are the suppressed and inconvenient facts:

    About 90% of interracial violent crime in our nation is committed by blacks against whites. The black-on-white murder rate in the U.S. exceeds the white-on-black rate by about 2.5-to-1. The black-on-white assault and battery rate exceeds the corresponding white-on-black rate in this country by at least 10-to-1.

    U.S. interracial rape statistics…Because the number of white-on-black rapes is so low nationally in any given year, the ratio ranges from 100-to-1 to infinity.

    The hysterical public mantra of epidemic white-on-black violence is thus exposed as fraud.

    Why have the New Black Panther leaders not been arrested and prosecuted for their publicly announced bounty on Zimmerman — “dead or alive”? …perhaps they have heard that the Obama Justice Department has an official policy of prosecuting white-on-black offenses but not black-on-white.

    Attorney General Holder has demanded that Americans have the courage to address the subject of race. I’m an American and the issue here, regrettably, is race. Is this enough courage for you, attorney general?

    Yes, isn’t it great news that the true condition in the U.S. is epidemic black-on-white racial violence?

    • stephenreal

      race baiting doesn’t win elections and turns off colored people the party needs to win national elections.

      • OnPointComments

        I suspect that when some people speak of “having the courage to address the subject of race,” what they really mean is “this is how white people need to change.” For these people, discussion of white on black crime is evidence of courage; discussion of black on white crime is evidence of race baiting.

    • StilllHere

      Some people don’t like facts and are confused by numbers. Keep trying though.

      • Ray in VT

        You mean like climate deniers, the people who continue to try to make hay out of the New Black Panther Party, and people who think that there are between zero and ten white on black rapes in America in a given year? Yeah, those people really are out to lunch.

    • hennorama

      OPC – i hope you don’t actually believe these so-called “suppressed and inconvenient facts.”

      The following rebuttal is undergoing “auto-moderation” on the IBD site, so I thought I’d try posting here:

      Main Points of Rebuttal

      1. The author does not disclose that the claims presented as “suppressed and inconvenient facts” are mainly derived from figures taken from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), which is an annual data collection conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Dept. of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The NCVS is absolutely different and distinct from FBI statistics, which use data from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program.

      In all cases, NCVS results, presented in their Statistical Tables, are ESTIMATES BASED ON SURVEYS, also known as “NOT FACTS.”

      The “facts” are, per the U.S. Census, an estimated 63.0% of U.S. residents are “White alone, not Hispanic or Latino,” and an estimated 13.1% are “Black or African American alone.” So what — that shouldn’t matter, right?

      Wrong. Here’s why – there are 4.81 times as many white people who are potential crime victims as there are black people.

      To illustrate the point – imagine a perfectly integrated society of 100,000 people, with 80 percent red people, and 20 percent green people. (using round numbers to simplify the discussion)

      For both green people and red people in this society, 80 percent of the people they encounter at random are red, and 20 percent are green. Now imagine that everyone commits one crime every year, and chooses the victim at random. The 20,000 green people would commit 20,000 crimes, with 16,000 (80%) of the victims being red people. This means the “green on red” interCOLOR crime rate is 0.80 (16,000/20,000) for the green people.

      The 80,000 red people would commit 80,000 crimes, of which 16,000 (20%) would be with green people as victims. This makes the “red on green” interCOLOR crime rate 16,000/80,000, or 0.20 for red people. So, even though green people had no greater inclination to commit interCOLOR crime than red people, the green rate of interCOLOR crime would be four times the red rate simply because there are four times as many red people as green people who are available as victims. Dividing the green interCOLOR crime rate of 0.8 by four gives us 0.2, which was the red interCOLOR crime rate.

      This means we should not be surprised by differences in rates, and should expect the of the rates of “interracial violent crime in our nation … committed by blacks against whites” to be about 4.8 times the rate of “interracial violent crime in our nation … committed by whites against blacks.” (Dividing the estimated percentages of the U.S. population above, we get 63.0/13.1 = 4.81).

      2. The author wrote “About 90% of interracial violent crime in our nation is committed by blacks against whites.”

      This is absolutely FALSE, for multiple reasons. The first is that it does not in any way account for “interracial violent crime in our nation [NOT] committed by” offenders who are neither “white” or “black.” More on that later.

      This false claim is derived from estimates from the NCVS Table 42. “Personal crimes of violence: Percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender.”

      When we do the arithmetic, we find the combined number of estimated white/black interracial victimizations is 489,619, with the so-called “black on white” victimizations equal to 88.6% of the combined number, and so-called “white on black” victimizations equal to 11.4%. This is indeed close to what the author wrote.

      There are two problems with this however.

      The first problem is that the above completely ignores that between one-fifth and one-sixth of the estimated numbers of both “White only” and “Black only” victims, show the “perceived race of offender” as “Other” or “Not known or not available.” Therefore, even if these estimates were exactly perfect (and they’re not), there are large numbers of other “interracial violent crime” combinations that the author did not take into account AT ALL.

      Using the estimated numbers of “Crimes of violence” (3,649,340), there were 207,455 “Other” instances of interracial victimizations, and 460,140 additional potential cases, categorized as “Perceived race – Not known or not available.”

      Even if the “Not known” instances are excluded, this leaves us with a combined estimate of 697,074 “interracial violent crime” victimizations, of which 433,934 (62.25%) are “black on white,” 207,455 (29.75%) are “Other on Black or White,” and 55,685 (8.0%) that are “White on black.” Clearly, this means the author’s claim that “about 90% of interracial violent crime in our nation is committed by blacks against whites” is inaccurate. It’s actually so far off that it’s not even “close enough for government work.”

      The second problem is that the author is using the TOTAL estimated number of victimizations, rather than the estimated numbers for “Completed violence.” Taken together, “Attempted” and “threatened” violence consistently account for roughly three fourths of the estimated TOTAL numbers of “Crimes of violence” in the NCVS Statistical Tables.

      5. If we take the NCVS estimates for 2008 at face value, and examine only “Completed violence,” and limit the discussion to only white/black interracial violence, we learn that so-called “black on white” victimizations, and so-called “white on black” victimizations are estimated to be:

      “Black-On-White” = 137,069 = 81.77% of this limited cohort.

      “White-On-Black” “ (NOTE *based on 10 or fewer sample cases) = 30,557 = 18.23% of this limited cohort.

      The ratio of the above (81.77% divided by 18.23%) is 4.4855

      Repeating from above, the ratio of the estimated percentage of the U.S. population that is “White alone, not Hispanic or Latino” (63.0%) to the “Black or African American alone” population (13.1%) is 4.8092.

      In other words, these estimates for “Completed violence” are almost exactly as one might expect if, as the author wrote, “these interracial crime ratios were randomly based.”

      3. The so-called “U.S. interracial rape statistics” are NOT “rape statistics” at all, but instead are for “Rape and Sexual Assault” together. The NCVS estimates for these two offenses include:

      “Rape … Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape.

      “Sexual assault – A wide range of victimizations, separate from rape or attempted rape. These crimes include attacks or attempted attacks generally involving unwanted sexual contact between victim and offender. Sexual assaults may or may not involve force and include such things as grabbing or fondling. It also includes verbal threats.”

      See:

      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317#terms_def

      The exclusion of Sexual Assault by the author makes his claim that “Because the number of white-on-black rapes is so low nationally in any given year, the ratio ranges from 100-to-1 to infinity” either intentionally inflammatory or foolishly ignorant. Either way, it too is false.

      4. The so-called “U.S. interracial rape statistics” in the NCVS very often have an asterisk next to them. The asterisk means “ *Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases.” That’s “10 or fewer sample cases” taken from interviews of 67,090 people (2008).

      Here’s what the BJS says about low numbers of sample cases:

      “We develop national estimates from sample cases of interviews with victims. We take the data we get from these interviews and weight it to represent the nation as a whole. All of the published data from the survey represent weighted estimates. When the national estimate is based on 10 or fewer actual sample cases, we make note of this and encourage caution in interpreting results.”

      See:

      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=qa&iid=464

      These low sample case numbers are not surprising, because the crimes of Rape and Sexual assault are statistically rare. Again, quoting the BJS on the matter:

      “The margin of error is different for different crimes and different findings in NCVS because questions are asked only of people who are victims of those crimes. There is a large margin of error around statistically rare crimes, such as rape/sexual assault.”

      See:

      http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=qa&iid=466

      This means that not only does the author mischaracterize estimates for the combination of Rape and Sexual Assault as “rape statistics,” he also irresponsibly uses estimates BASED ON 10 OR FEWER SAMPLE CASES with no disclaimer whatsoever.

      Need I continue?

      Source for population estimates:

      http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

      The 2008 Statistical Tables for the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) can be found here:

      http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus08.pdf

      • OnPointComments

        In a comparison of the number of black vs. nonblack violent crime offenders, African Americans are represented at a rate that is disproportionately far higher than their representation in the population as a whole.

        • hennorama

          OPC – TYFYR.

          That is true, and is a basis for discussion. Thank you for presenting your point in a way that does not make millions of people guilty by association.

          Throughout the world, the three attributes that are most common among offenders are:

          Young
          Male
          Poor/Unemployed

          In urban areas, where more people with these three attributes are in close proximity, violent crime is much higher. This is hardly a surprise.

          Here are some handy resources about these topics:

          http://www.sociology.org.uk/pblsdca.pdf (Age)
          http://www.sociology.org.uk/pblsdcg.pdf (Gender)
          http://www.essay.uk.com/free-accounting-essays/poverty-a-correlate-to-crime.php (Poverty)
          http://www.sociology.org.uk/pblsdcr.pdf (Region)

          http://www.academia.edu/914405/Crime_and_Unemployment_Evidence_from_Europe

        • hennorama

          OPC – I thought you might be interested to know that I have shared my criticisms with the author, John Gaski, and am currently exchanging emails with him.

          One other item of note – the IBD site seems to have much tighter “moderation” standards than the On Point site. Many of my attempts to post on the IBD site are currently undergoing “moderation,” even ones that simply linked to my “Main Points of Rebuttal” post to you, above.

          A final point – both the op-ed itself, and what Mr. Gaski described as “the suppressed and inconvenient facts” are being repeated and quoted on various white nationalist/separatist/supremacist websites, such as amren.com and stormfront.org. Several of those commenting on the IBD site frequent those sites and others, as shown on their DISQUS profiles.

          This op-ed serves only to provide further fuel for the fiery views presented in those forums and elsewhere, and does nothing whatsoever to promote more reasonable and reasoned exchanges.

          Thanks for your attention.

          • OnPointComments

            It’s understandable that someone might write an op-ed to fuel the fiery views of whites in response to the hyperbolic rhetoric that has fueled the fiery views of blacks in the aftermath of the Zimmerman trial. Race was brought into the discussion early on, and when it was found that a racial motive was absent in the killing of Trayvon Martin, racial motives were manufactured out of whole cloth.

          • hennorama

            OPC – what’s that idiom about “two wrongs” again?

            As we have both agreed, the Martin/Zimmerman case devolved into a circus, benefiting media conglomerates and others.

            However, there were some other positives, as the issues of Stand Your Ground laws, and the disproportionate involvement of African-Americans as both victims of violent crime and violent offenders have become topics of public discussions as never before.

            Let’s focus on the positives and move forward.

            TY for your response.

  • stephenreal

    The fact is Republicans can no longer win national elections. These racial questions are deeply intertwine with any success for the party.

    You got to win if you want your voice to be heard.

    • OnPointComments

      When blacks reflexively vote 96 percent for the black candidate, do you really think there’s much that a white candidate can do to win their votes if the opponent candidate is black?

      By my count, Republicans won two out of the last six presidential votes, and five of the last nine presidential votes.

      • Ray in VT

        And how did that number compare with the share of the black vote received by other Democratic candidates from the past 20 years?

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