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Race In America Today

The president, the country and race after Trayvon Martin

The country’s first black president has not made a big deal, regularly, about race. In office, his most important statement on the subject has arguably been just being there — the nation’s leader, African-American, with his strong African-American family at his side.

But on Friday, President Obama spoke directly, personally, to race in the aftermath of the George Zimmerman verdict in the killing of Trayvon Martin. That, said the President of the United States, “could have been me 35 years ago.” Let’s think again, he said. Deeper.

This hour, On Point: The president, the country and race after Trayvon Martin.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Touré, writer and cultural critic. Co-host of MSNBC’s The Cycle. (@Toure)

Laura Washington, columnist at the Chicago Sun Times. (@MediaDervish)

Bryan Monroe, editor of CNNPolitics.com. (@BryanMonroeCNN)

From Tom’s Reading List

TIME: Stopping The Slaughter: “Every death is a tragedy in this nation, whether in Pennsylvania, Connecticut or Florida. We all have suffered a great tragedy with the death of Trayvon Martin. But Trayvon’s story is only the latest in our epidemic of violence, compounded by race, that must be addressed in America.”

New York Times: President Offers A Personal Take On Race In U.S.: “After days of angry protests and mounting public pressure, President Obama summoned five of his closest advisers to the Oval Office on Thursday evening. It was time, he told them, for him to speak to the nation about the Trayvon Martin verdict, and he had a pretty good idea what he wanted to say.”

National Journal: President Obama’s Other Major Speech On Race In America: “In March, 2008, Senator Barack Obama was under fire. Video of the senator’s former pastor and supposed ‘spiritual mentor’ Reverend Jeremiah Wright making a series of racially controversial statements was making the rounds, and threatening to derail his presidential campaign. So the senator decided to give a speech in Philadelphia about race in the United States. It proved to be one of the most memorable moments of not just 2008, but of Obama’s political career.”

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  • John Cedar

    This is a great topic I just can’t get enough of.
    If it were up to me we would cover the Trayvon story every day.

    Obama stands in solidarity with Sharpton and will not rest until black yutes are free to violently assault “white Hispanics” with potentially lethal force, in response to being approached and asked a question.

    • northeaster17

      Pathetic

    • jefe68

      Really pathetic. This comment is one of the faces of the right wing on this forum. And they say they are not racist.

      • Prairie_W

         I think “racist” gives Cedar’s comment more dignity than it deserves.  Even “small-minded” seems generous. 

        • jefe68

          True that. And guess how liked his comment. Futto Buddy, the man who thinks people were better of as slaves than working for Walmart.

          One has to wonder, how is that these people even function in society without getting into trouble? To me there does seem to be an under current of rage here.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I like any comment that makes an “My Cousin Vinnie” allusion.
            what you said is not what I said at all. why would you just randomly throw me out and lie about what I said? I thought you were better than this jefe. what happened to you man?
            jefe did you ever hear what Harriet Tubman said most limited her ability to free slaves? when I deal with people like you I know how she feels.

    • JobExperience

      Waistband carry can lead to gelding and/or castration.
      Your tongue needs a high quality holster and a trigger lock. 

  • alsordi

    Its not really about race.   It comes down to civility, mutual respect and those worthy of it.  

    As the rich grow richer, they have always diverted attention by creating divisions and fractiousness below them. black vs whites, shiites vs sunni,  protestant vs catholic…the rich get richer.

    The wealthy have plundered the world, and left a more desperate planet.  As much as Americans try to believe they are experiencing prosperity,  they know their incomes, pensions and civil liberties are eroding.  People are wound tight and ready to spring at the slightest insult or challenge. And this is what happend with Treyvon and Zimmerman.

    This is why the elites created the militarized police state. They saw it coming prior to the banking crisis, and they know the worst of the financial crisis has yet to come, when millions of Treyvons and Zimmermans figure out they are on the same side and hit the streets to bring down a corrupt banking system.

    • Shag_Wevera

      I agree with much of what you’ve said.  Since agriculture first created surplus, the rich have always gotten over on the rest of us.  I believe that eventually the 99% of us will figure this out, act, and create a new age of man.  The burning question is when?

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        ironically back in the day the ruling class knew that if they used interest based banking systems that the wealth would become concentrated in the hands of the very few at which point the masses would just go ahead and kill them. to prevent this they had a jubilee. its too bad we never learn from history

        • Shag_Wevera

          Maybe cable and cheap food are the “jubilee” of today.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            cable is not free. unless there is obomacable now. I would not be surprised.
            the jubilee was where the wealthy forgave all their debtors. I was thinking that in many ways working somewhere like walmart is worse than being a slave. a slave owner had to provide adequate food and housing. a slave owner had personal and financial interest in keeping their slaves healthy.  walmart does neither.

          • jefe68

            This comment is beyond the pale.

            What is wrong with you?
            Have you any idea how ugly a comment like this is?
            Are you such bottom feeder that you feel it’s necessary to make such loaded comments?

            Are you really this much of an idiot?

          • Shag_Wevera

            I dunno, the comparison of Walmart being worse than slavery isn’t completely in left field.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            jefe suffers from cognitive dissonance

          • jefe68

            Oh boy, talk about misguided.

          • jefe68

            Really? So tell me what Walmart’s whip there employees to death and keep them in chains?

            In what Walmart do the managers rape the women regularly?

            In what Walmart are the children taken from the mothers and sold off as slaves? 

            What is amazing here is somehow this idiot Futo Buddy posts some Disneyized version of slavery and you deem it OK. 

            I’m not defending Walmart’s labor practices, far from it. But this FB guy is a real piece of work and to support that kind flippancy about the subject of slavery in this country is abhorrent.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            way to not address the points I raised. you must not disagreewith them.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            tell me what part is inaccurate. your ad hominem attack reeks of cognitive dissonance.

          • jefe68

            Your have to be kidding. Do you really think that being a slave is better than being a free person?

            The only person with cognitive issues is you here buddy. You’re the one posting idiotic comments that are racially charged. 

            And you have the nerve to use an image of Malcolm X in congress to the BS you post.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            did I say being a slave was better than being a free person? you are silly jefe.
            whats wrong with malcom x?

          • John Cedar

            These left wing dolts that respond to you don’t even recognize a concept you  ripped off from their own bible/Marx manifesto. We realize they get all their news from Jon Stewart and The Onion, but you would o’ thunk they read a book or two when they were in the process of becoming public school teachers, wun’t ya?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            hey I actually was a public school teacher. they are not all liberals. almost all history teachers are staunch conservatives. not that I endorse those labels

          • tbphkm33

            I agree, you have a valid point – millions are slaves to the corporations today, a system that has little overall interest in the well being of the enslaved.  A system who’s message is clearly, “let them eat cake.” 

  • Shag_Wevera

    I’m a racist, probably.

    • Jon

      everybody is, more or less, racist or tribalist

    • hennorama

      Shag_Wevera – gladtameetcha.

      Hello, my name is [hennorama] and I’m a racist.

      I’ve been in recovery for many, many years, however.

      Inspired by your post, I discussed this a bit wayyyyy up top. If you’re interested, you can jump to my post:

      http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/07/22/race-in-america-today#comment-972424493

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        his story is kind of like steve martins “the jerk” but in reverse.
        “Huh? I am not a bum. I’m a jerk. I once had wealth, power, and the love of a beautiful woman. Now I only have two things: my friends and… uh… my thermos. Huh? My story? Okay. It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin’ on the porch with my family, singin’ and dancin’ down in Mississippi”

        • hennorama

          FB – to whom are you referring as to “his story?”

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            the oboma story you related in the other post you referenced

          • hennorama

            FB – You misunderstood. Anything not in quotes in that post is my own personal story.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            you attributed it to oboma at the bottom. my bad

          • hennorama

            FB – no worries. Glad you have a clearer understanding now, as that is nearly always my goal.

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    I was hoping this article was announcing an exciting bicycle race in America like the tour de france, but in America. misleading again npr

    • Shag_Wevera

      Now THAT is funny!

    • Vigilarus

      Well, drug enforcement issues are relevant either way.

    • hennorama

      FB – you’re getting the hang of sarcasm, dude.  Well done.

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    if you are so is the guy who said this:
    There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved

  • Yar

    I have started reading The Big Sort, by Bill Bishop. It is how we have become homogenous communities.  The book claims this leads toward political extremes.  The discussion in the jury room would likely have been different had one of the women been black.  Gated communities are just one aspect of the big sort.  How do we promote value in diversity in a country that basically exploits many of its residents.  Next hour is a discussion on the brain, looking at biology of fear could pave the way to understanding why we seek like-minded.

    • Shag_Wevera

      I think in the long term, diversity is best.  In the short term it can be painful and undesirable.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      yet George Zimmerman lived in a gated community with black people. I have been some places which are pretty segregated. there are plenty of places that are diverse as well

  • TyroneJ

    I think the media is an integral part of the “racial problem” in America due to their need to keep wounds open because doing so makes “good stories”. I’m not saying there are no racial issues, nor that the media is to blame for everything, but I do contend that the media are part of the problem, not apart from the problem.

    I think an example of that is the media inventing the term
    “white Hispanic” for George Zimmerman because he’s half-white (& 3/8 Hispanic & 1/8 black), yet the same rule if fairly applied to Barack Obama would have him labeled a “white African American”. Good luck seeing the media do that.

    • JobExperience

      The good German media kept quiet about death camps.
      Maybe you prefer that solution.

      • TyroneJ

        Thanks. I can use your post in my class as an example of a non-sequitor.

        • JobExperience

          And boy oh boy will you ever look dupid.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        they also used a lot of propaganda. and promoted stories of attacks by “Polish terrorists” to get the population to support a preemptive invasion of Poland

      • Bluejay2fly

        The problem with the media is it’s entertainment aspect. The worst thing to happen to America has been trying to foment interest filling in a 24 hour block of news. I once asked people how many serial killers are operating in the USA. People gave serious answers of 20 thousand or 15 thousand. Really? so they think that 50k or more people a year are killed just by serial killers, OMG. People’s perception of reality is grossly distorted. More children died in school fires in the 40′s and 50′s than all of our mass shootings combined yet people think schools are less safe now. People should educate themselves with books and develop critical thinking skills rather than rely on the crap the media puts out to make money.

    • adks12020

      FYI – “white Hispanic” isn’t a newly invented term. It’s been used for a long time.  Most native Spaniards would be considered white Hispanic as would many people in places like Argentina that are Spanish speaking but of European descent.

      • OnPointComments

        As I’ve said before:  try searching the web for news articles about Sonia Sotomayor’s nomination to the Supreme Court that describe her as a “White Hispanic.” You won’t find one. Not from CNN, or the New York Times, or Reuters, or ABCNews, or NBCNews, all of which described Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic.” When reporting on Sotomayor, “White Hispanic” didn’t fan the flames of a racial narrative that the media were intent on making into a raging fire.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Yep. I watch enough CONMEBOL to notice that.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        can you find any article by the NYT or anywhere that uses the word white Hispanic to describe anyone besides George Zimmerman? I would feel a lot better if you could

  • Shag_Wevera

    I’m liberal, I voted for President Obama.  He needs to STOP commenting on Trayvon Martin.  An ignorant and divided society seeks to make something out of a completely rational verdict.  If someone is sitting on your chest, pounding you in the face with no end in sight, you are justified in shooting and KILLING them.  Doesn’t matter how it started, doesn’t matter what ethnicity anyone is.

    • jefe68

      What? So you were at the crime scene and know this for a fact. By the way if Trayvon was beating up Zimmerman why was he still holding a paper bag at the time of his death. Also why was there no trace of Zimmermans DNA on him?

      • Shag_Wevera

        I’m not going to play conspiracy theory here.  Witnesses saw Martin on his chest.  Yada yada, I buy the explanation and the verdict.  Achim’s razor, dontcha know!

        • Prairie_W

           Wasn’t Martin effectively just “standing his ground”,  having been threatened by an unknown, armed man?

          • Shag_Wevera

            I don’t know if stand your ground applies to being followed or vrbally challenged.

          • Prairie_W

             I don’t either, Shag.  But if I were followed by a guy in a car and then on foot as Martin was, I’d at least be prepared for trouble. Zimmerman’s behavior seemed very close to stalking and also seemed to me to have a screwy power/sexual element to it.

          • notafeminista

            When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

          • John_in_Amherst

             And when you have a gun, everything looks like a target

          • notafeminista

            You comment would make sense had Mr. Zimmerman intiated the confrontation with his gun.  Ding

          • John_in_Amherst

             dingaling

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            prepared for trouble? yes
            circle around and attack the person?
            no
            your last comment seems like projection to me

          • John_in_Amherst

             If you know you are being stalked, would you lead your stalker to the doorstep where your unsuspecting family would be imperiled, or confront the would-be assailant before you get home & involve your family?  Your perspective might be influenced by where you live or grew up. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            if you are trying to defend preemptively attacking people because they are walking behind you I don’t even know where to begin to reason with you.

          • John_in_Amherst

             walking behind does not equal furtive stalking

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            you are right

          • creaker

            How else could one “stand their ground” against someone with a gun? If one feels there is an imminent threat, walking away is not a viable option.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            if you know someone has a gun and you don’t and you have an avenue of escape that’s your best tactic. if you did attack someone you know has a gun would you try to get the gun from them or would you concentrate on pounding their head and face? makes me think that zims gun was holstered until he was being beaten

          • creaker

            And how would react if you were unarmed and someone said “if you walk away, I will shoot you”?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Oh, if only Zimmerman had enough training to think to do that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            i would ask why

          • Vigilarus

            Maybe the NRA could launch a program to arm young black men to enable them to stand their ground more effectively in the future. Maybe everyone should carry weapons, and randomly determine if they feel threatened and open fire. This would enlarge the numbers of battle-hardened citizens who would make useful recruits for invading Iran while weeding out the old and slow, thus saving healthcare dollars as well.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            the NRA supports the rights of black people to exercise their civil rights
            30% of florida stand your ground cases free black defendants. everyone should carry weapons. its one of our duties as an American. do you feel Zimmerman randomly opened fire that night? I think if everyone was armed people would be more polite and people would not try to beat others they see as weaker than them.
            here is a great article from an African American NRA member
            The short answer: The NRA is not racist, otherwise I and many of my fellow black gun owners would not be members.  Read on for the longer answer.
            First, The Reasons I’m Even Writing this ArticleI’m a black gun owner who has been an NRA member for about as long as I’ve owned guns.  During that time I’ve experienced exactly 0 instances of racism from NRA members, and have found them to be kind, helpful, and all around good people.  Sadly, some people seem to think that the NRA and its members are racist.  For example, I‘ve noticed an increasing number of people arriving at LearnAboutGuns.com after searching on Google for terms such as “NRA position on African American”, “black people NRA”, “racist NRA”, etc. I already wrote one article addressing the non-existence of racial problems at Chicago area gun stores, but it seems that it is time for this African American gun owner and NRA member to write another article addressing (the lack of) racism insofar as the NRA and gun owners in general are concerned:
            The NRA’s Lack of Racism Bluntly put, the NRA is not a racist organization, but instead one of the oldest civil rights groups in the USA.  The NRA is a national organization with millions of members, and is dedicated to firearms training and the defense of the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.  There are NRA members of every race, religion, country of origin, etc.  The NRA does not promote or condone racism, as it is comprised of reasonable people. Also, from a practical matter, it should be obvious that the NRA would not support racism, as to do so would give the anti gun lobby ammunition in their propaganda war, while simultaneously costing the NRA the support of reasonable people.  Instead, the NRA has a proven track record of standing up for the rights of minorities.  Many of the African American gun owners on the Black Gun Owners forum are NRA members.
            Other Gun Associations Lack of Racism The same statements about the non-racism of the NRA apply to other gun organizations, such as the Illinois State Rifle Association.  For example, the 1st vice president of the ISRA is Jewish – hardly the stereotype of a KKK member that some ignorant people apply to gun owners.  Another example is the treasurer of the ISRA, a woman who was born in Poland and later moved to the USA.
            Conclusion The NRA is not a racist organization, and the same is true for other pro gun rights organizations, as well as the overwhelming majority of their individual members.  As a black person who has spoken with and shot with gun owners from multiple states, I can unequivocally say that I have never experienced a shred of firearms activity related racism. It is offensive and saddening to hear ignorant forum posters ascribe racism to NRA members, as some of the nicest people I’ve met over the last couple of years have been NRA members. For example, when I first went trapshooting, an NRA member (who was white by the way) went to the trouble of showing my the basics, and letting me borrow one of his guns on 2 separate days.  Other members of the same trapshooting club spent about an hour chatting with me after I was done shooting, and encouraged me to return.  Lending of firearms, teaching of trapshooting, and entertaining conversation are what one can expect from an NRA member – not racism.

          • John_in_Amherst

             “everyone should carry a weapons.  It’s our duty as Americans.”  I must have missed that line in the Constitution.  You ever check the per capita murder rate in the frontier towns of the west, where carrying weapons was a lot more common (but hardly universal?).  I only hope that people with the same bellicose world view can get together  somewhere where they can re-enact your Wild West mayhem fantasy.  Maybe sell tickets or make a reality TV show.  Too bad the Title “Hunger Games” is already taken…  Let’s let the gun-play up to the professionals (military, police & outlaws)….  

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I know you like to try to deny the second amendment exists. it does exist and it is a basic right.  all of our rights entail certain duties and responsibilities. no one has to vote but we have a duty and responsibility to vote and we would be much better off if everyone did.
            there already is a place like that. its called the north/south skirmish association headquarters. I would like to go someday. also there is Vermont. that place is pretty nice too. I am not sure where your western theme meme cam from but its funny.
            yeah the police and military are doing such a great job of never misusing their guns and protecting us from those who do we should all just trust them with our lives. do you really feel absolute power does not corrupt absolutely? 

          • John_in_Amherst

            Run!! the jack booted thugs in black helicopters are coming for your guns!

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            the black helicopters would be funny. if they were not already doing unannounced “drills” flying the black helicopters downtown low. they did not even inform the local police they were doing these “drills”s”

          • jefe68

            Except that in the mid to late 19th century a lot of Western and South Western towns had strict gun laws. 

            In Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, “Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check.”

            Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that “any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law.” Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona–the site of the infamous “Shootout at the OK Corral”–also barred the carrying of guns openly.

          • John_in_Amherst

             These laws were passed because towns of 10,000 or less had a murder a week

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            and then after they had none?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            whats your point?

          • Bluejay2fly

            What Zimmerman did was to harass blacks because he saw them as criminals stealing in his neighborhood, so we can acknowledge that this is born out of frustration with crime but is bad. Trayvon should have exercised good judgement and not engaged him. In essence he died because he couldn’t control his emotions and brought a fist to a gun fight. Standing your ground is not for people to start violent confrontations. Both are wrong but Trayvon started used deadly physical force and that is the difference. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            says you. how can someone who targets blacks for harassment because he is such a racist be the same man who starts protests to defend a homeless black man mistreated by the police?

          • jefe68

            I can say the same about every thing you post. You’re posting nothing but conjectures about the Zimmerman/Martin case. A big fat 0.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            jefe once again injects his incomprehensible  ad hominem attacks in a thread

          • John_in_Amherst

             Statistically, SYG laws make violent confrontations MORE likely.  Had Martin not been threatened by Zimmerman stalking him contrary to the advice of the police dispatcher, Martin would not have thrown a punch.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            except following someone is not an attack and punching someone is

          • Bluejay2fly

            I work in a prison and believe it or not a grown man can kill someone by punching them. Your right it is deadly force.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I bet that’s why some of them are in there

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            no, not running away and attacking someone are different things

          • Prairie_W

            Was Martin attacking or defending?  After all, he was approached by a stranger who had been following him.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            so if a stranger follows you, you can beat them? if you said he was hit by a stranger who was following his it would be defense. if he beat the person because he was following him than its an attack. I feel like these things should be obvious.

          • Prairie_W

             Do you know what actually transpired?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            here’s the problem. no one who wants to see Zimmerman convicted of murder can think of a plausible theory of the case that jives with the known facts. neither the judge nor the prosecutor was able to come up with such a theory when the defense requested it.
            have you seen this? I had not until just now
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWZPjCuA5k&list=UUKfhu8boZmac06oAycgxRtw

    • John_in_Amherst

       Obama’s speech was courageous and brilliant.  There is some evidence that Zimmerman mentored young blacks in his neighborhood.  There are also a lot of documented instances of his calling the police on young black men who “looked suspicious”.  I would agree that according to Florida’s SYG and manslaughter, 2nd degree murder laws, Zimmerman was innocent.   But do you really believe that if Martin was white, he would have been followed?  When compared to defendants in white-on-white syg cases, white-on-black syg homicide is 3 1/2 times more likely to be found justified.  Black-on-white syg homicides are found to be justified only 1/3 as often.  No racial bias??  With SYG and concealed carry laws as written, how much more carnage will we condone?

      • notafeminista

        Oh my..you can always hope.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        following someone is not a crime nor does it justify being beaten. I don’t know George Zimmerman but if I saw some white hooded stranger in my neighborhood I would keep an eye on him. I don’t see why George would want white people breaking in either.
        of course in aggregate there is racial bias. what is the evidence there was any in this case?

        • John_in_Amherst

           GZ had 46 instances of calling the police on blacks who looked suspicious.  You see no history??  Following someone, especially at night, IS threatening.  SYG and right to carry laws as written in Florida invite this kind of violence.  And you and I have already had this argument here last week, so rave on as you see fit, but I’ve got better things to do with my time. 

          • Give_Me_Liberty_92

            this is pure B.S. propaganda.

            http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/07/what-do-zimmermans-calls-to-police-show-about-his-view-of-black-men-.html

            He called 46 times. 6 times involved a black person. One of those 6 cases involved a black minor and the police notes indicated that GZ was concern about his welfare (him being alone unsupervised)….White and hispanic, men and women are in the list as well.

            he had no history of racial bias….

            read. and think for yourself for once.

            8/12/04:
            Reports male driving pick-up without car seat
            9/20/04:
            Neighbor’s garage door open
            8/20/04:
            Reports white male walking in the road carrying a paper bag, presumably
            drinking
            3/17/05:
            Pothole
            4/27/05:
            Neighbor’s garage door open9/21/05:
            Stray dog9/23/05:
            Couldn’t reach his sister by phone
            11/4/06:
            Reports pick-up driving around apartment complex for last five minutes “driving
            real slow looking at all the vehicles in the complex and blasting music”
            6/24/07:
            Two Hispanic males and one white male loitering near pool; officer spoke to
            them and determined were locked out of their vehicle
            10/14/07:
            Possible intentional damage to his car tire; thinks he knows who did it
            11/25/07:
            Reports disturbance involving his ex-roommate, a white male
            1/5/09:
            Fire alarm going off
            3/12/09:
            Requests patrol outside his home for a week while he’s away
            5/4/09:
            Reports blue Audi; unclear why
            6/10/09:
            Fire alarm going off
            6/16/09:
            People jumping over the fence and going into the pool area, playing basketball,
            trashing the bathroom; reports make and model of car
            8/21/09:
            Disturbance involving landlord over rent and foreclosure
            8/26/09:
            Male driving without headlights
            9/7/09:
            Pothole
            9/22/09:
            Speed bike doing wheelies, speeding and weaving in and out of traffic
            10/23/09:
            Pitbull
            11/21/09:
            Referring to unclear past event, GZ says subject is in front of his residence
            11/3/09:
            White male driver in county vehicle cutting people off
            1/1/10:
            White male having loud verbal dispute with female in back of pick-up
            1/12/10:
            Neighbor’s garage door open, “very unlike his neighbor”
            2/27/10:
            Reports residence in complex where multiple vehicles are constantly coming to
            the residence; unknown subjects run out to the vehicles and run back inside;
            the subjects are always outside with the garage open and hang out all night, an
            ongoing problem; unknown who lives at that address; GZ advises there are
            constantly different people 4/28/10:
            Vehicle obstructing road
            6/12/10:
            At least 50 subjects GZ doesn’t think live at complex are in the clubhouse
            & pool areas having a party, causing road obstructions
            6/26/10:
            Approximately 50 subjects are having a loud party and blocking the street
            10/2/10:
            Female driver yelling at elderly passengers, unknown if altercation is
            physical, vehicle was rocking back and forth
            11/8/10:
            Trash in roadway, appears to contain glass
            11/26/10:
            Motion alarm tripped while GZ is out of town
            3/18/11:
            Pitbull in his garage
            4/22/11:
            Black male 7-9 years old walking alone unsupervised on busy street; GZ
            “concerned for well being”
            5/27/11:
            GZ’s alarm tripped while he’s at work
            8/3/11:
            Black male on foot at back entrance of neighborhood last seen wearing white
            tank top and black shorts; GZ believes he’s involved in recent burglaries in
            neighborhood; GZ says he matches the description that was given to police
            8/6/11:
            Two black male teens near back gate of neighborhood, one wearing black tank top
            and black shorts, 2nd wearing black t-shirt and jeans; GZ says they’re the ones
            who have been burglarizing the area and predicts subjects will run into the
            subdivision next to his complex
            9/23/11:
            Open garage door; GZ notes he’s part of neighborhood watch and is concerned
            about recent burglaries in area; had a neighborhood watch meeting previous
            night with Sgt. Herx who advised him to report anything suspicious
            10/1/11:
            Two black males approx 20-30 years old appear to be loitering in their car at
            gate of community at 1 am; GZ doesn’t recognize subjects or vehicle and is
            concerned due to recent burglaries in the area
            12/10/11:
            White male with shaved head at club house in black Mercedes was hired by GZ to
            serve food at an event but then GZ replaced him and subject seemed upset and
            wants to be paid; GZ has never met him in person; GZ’s wife will meet with
            police when they arrive
            1/29/12:
            Five or six kids, ages 4-11 years, running and playing in the street and
            running out in front of cars
            2/2/12:
            Black male wearing black leather jacket, black hat, and printed PJ pants keeps
            going to the residence of a white male; unclear what he’s doing; subject was
            gone when police arrived
            2/26/12 [TRAYVON MARTIN]: Black male, late teens,
            dark gray hoodie, jeans or sweatpants, walking around area; GZ concerned about
            recent burglaries

          • John_in_Amherst

             Point taken on GZ and black bias.  So he just had an authority thing about being a wanabe cop. 

            Next time you are tailed at might by anyone (regardless of race), let me know if you feel threatened.  And if you feel threatened, let me know if you feel like leading the stalker home to your family.  If GZ’s neighborhood was under siege, as was implied in the trial, do you not think Martin could also have felt endangered by someone acting strangely (following him) at night? 

            I will stand by Obama and his talk about clicking car locks, being followed in stores, and other indicators of whites feeling threatened by blacks.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            if he was a wannabe cop or vigilante he would not be calling the police about every little thing. he would be taking matters into his own hands. he seems like the old lady in the neighbor hood who calls the police over everything. the police had told him to call them if he saw anything suspicious so I don’t see what’s wrong with that. I know you  have decided that Zimmerman is a murderous racist liar but have you seen him do the whole reenactment that takes about 20 minutes unedited? I posted a version of that tape with the 911 calls and such synced up with George recreating the night at the scene for the detectives. take a few minutes to watch it and then tell me which parts exactly are lies.

            “I will stand by Obama and his talk about clicking car locks, being followed in stores, and other indicators of whites feeling threatened by blacks.”
            I am getting kind of sick of hearing this garbage. This stuff all has happened and happens to me all the time and I am not black. so that’s not the only reason that may happen. I have witnessed racist store owners who are suspicious of my black friends because they are black.  of the several incidents I have witnessed all the store owners were middle easterners or other immigrants not the “typical” white guy. what it typically took the form of was disproportionately enforcing a local ordinance requiring taking off hoods or sunglasses in stores. It was offensive and wrong. That’s not to say no one ever said anything to me about it but I did not get it as much as my black friends. kind of a stupid ordinance that does not seem constitutional anyways.  I guess when something like that happens you should at least consider the possibility it has nothing to do with your race. it may but it also may not. women like locking their doors and clutching their kids and purses as far as I can tell. that happens to me all the time

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            all 46 calls were blacks who looked suspicious?  seems to me that might depend on where you live. if he lived next door to a trailer park he may have called 46 times on suspicious white people. i guess that would be because he was a Hispanic so racist against white people right? I thought several of them were in regard to potholes. did you know GZ took an African American girl to the prom? do you know he worked with black church leaders to try to get justice for a black homeless man abused by the police?
            you cannot beat someone because you think they are following you.
            ( ive got the day off today so no worries?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            this just in “GZ emerged from hiding to rescue a person from an overturned truck”

  • Markus6

    There’s something within many, maybe, most people that makes them want to feel oppressed, whether they are or not. Maybe it’s as simple as if you’re not doing well, you need someone else to blame. If you’re a white guy who didn’t get the promotion, it must have been that the woman who is your boss wanted to promote a female. With different races, it’s so easy to blame your problems on the race that appears to be running thing. Making it easier is that there is a huge industry within media and academia that makes money by encouraging people to believe they are oppressed.

  • Jon

    “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” – This is still racism in principle. The problem is to judge at all. The spirit of democracy is to judge. Therefore, racism or tribalism is inescapable in America.

    • John_in_Amherst

       As Morgan Freeman recently said.”You want racism to go away?  Stop talking about it.  I will stop referring to you as a white man, you can strop calling me a black man.”

      • Jon

        Morgan Freeman can say that because he is Morgan Freeman. Not everybody is Morgan Freeman. No men are born equal.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        and the NYT and other outlets should stop calling people white hispanics

  • HLB

    Thank goodness the media can’t have a discussion about race without loading up the panel with black men and women. Where’s every other ethnicity in America.. at the table? Must not be a societal issue after all. Thanks much. HLB

    • liminalx

      You almost got it right HLB, but the real question is why can’t white people have a candid honest discussion (without getting defensive and or triggered) about white supremacy?

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        tell me more

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      I thought it was funny that fox news covered the verdict by having Geraldo and juan Williams have a discussion. keep the white people out of it lol. unless Geraldo is a white Hispanic? I also find this whole black/white discussion anachronistic.

  • JobExperience

    A slavery compromise (3/5) was included in our Constitution and the militias mentioned in the Big Two are there to keep down slave rebellions. If you don’t think the tinderbox we call Economy amounts to a potential wage slave rebellion you’re in the Nile. (We’re retarded in reaction compared to Egypt and Turkey.) Sponsored right wing (anti-labor) gunners are a counterinsurgency device against a majority that is insurgent (by Oligarch definition).
    Obama is playing the Mountaintop game, insuring his historical legacy in case he is shot. He’s a dishrag of a President beholden to bankers and corporatists (like all Democrats and Republicans) but he could become sacrificial even by inaction. “That could have been me 35 years ago”?
    It’s him now and he knows it. The prisons are crammed with Black men not ’cause they bad, but because they’re relatively powerless. The dumbed down White men who feel threatened by them are acting out the angst of the 1%. To the super rich the rest of us are all N——! (The T-party is just Uncle Toms.) See how the hired hounds of Empire treat peaceful protestors. We’re all (99%) insurgents as sure as we’re born.

    • hennorama

      JobExperience – your post cries out for a different sort of rating system for this forum.

      Rather than the only rating option being [Like], we could use a scale of 1 to 10 or a 1 to 5 stars system.

      Were such a system available, I’d give you a 7, or three stars.

  • MrWakiki

    Craig is right

  • JobExperience

    Screwball racism? That’s what I call it when the victim blaming starts. Oh yeah, where’s them Chinese and East Indians? They the majority. Why don’t they come drown out afflicted cries? And it’s Whitey bustin’ his own toys and wife ’cause he ain’t a Big Exec. Boohoohoohoo!

  • JobExperience

    That’s class!
    *Intended as reply to Futo about mixed race gated communities

  • toc1234

    Another diversified panel w different points of view which will lead to a constructive discussion… oh wait, my bad….

    Keep up the mediocre work, Tom!

    • MrWakiki

      Do you have a suggestion of who should be on the panel — someone pro-killing?

      Maybe the head of the NRA?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        There is the Gun Owners of America, for those who consider the NRA “squishy” at times. (I’m not making this up.)

        • vito33

          Larry Pratt. Hooooooooo boy!

  • creaker

    The one thing I’ve thought odd is repeated media references to Zimmerman as “half white, half Hispanic” – but even here, Obama is only referred to as “black”. 

    • creaker

      I expect if Martin had been white, Zimmerman would have only been referred to as “Hispanic” – and a very different demographic would be protesting right now, although the verdict would have likely been very different.

    • orizano

      This is the USA. If you have one drop of black blood in you and you look black – tough luck for you, you are considered black. Not half, not quarter, not twentieth, just black, period.

      • creaker

        Which is racist.

  • John_in_Amherst

    Racism is a common behavior across the globe, and is deeply rooted in humankind’s evolutionary past.  For most of human history, reacting to subtle differences in superficial characteristics like hair style, dress, or other aspects of appearance more subtle than skin color involved war-like reactions to encroachment on territory.  In our paleolithic past, this type of response helped insure access to food and water, the survival of one’s tribe, and hence one’s genes.  As people entered into times when mobility instigated contact between different groups that included people of obviously different races, xenophobic competition for resources and the primal desires for survival and dominance gave rise to more formalized racism. 

    Humans also had the innate ability to recognize what biologists now refer to as “hybrid vigor” – the fact that introducing new genes into a constricted mating pool results in healthier, more robust offspring.  This is evidenced by the rise of agriculture, in domesticated plants and animals with increasingly desirable traits.  It is also evidenced by the practice, common throughout the history of human conquest, to kill subjugated males and see females as “spoils of war”.  As cultures have evolved, this behavior has become more symbolic, as well.  In times of plenty, we seek out new cultural influences and practices that advance our general knowledge and understanding of the world.  In lean times, we tend to fall back on our conservative instincts, and racism rules. 

    It is highly doubtful we will ever shed racism, as Americans or as a specie.  But we have the intellectual capacity to see it for what it is – a trait that has become maladaptive in a tightly interconnected world, where people of very different cultures are now just a short car or plane ride – or shorter computer mouse click -  away.  We can continue exercising a troglodyte predilection to knee-jerk racism, or we can use our intelligence to learn from and make each other stronger, more resilient, and closer to the angels of our higher natures.  

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      compare chimps and bonobos. interesting case studies

      • jefe68

        Wow, you mentioned apes in context to a discussion about race. You’re a real peach of a guy.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          more ad hominem mixed with intentional mischaracterization from jefe. how quaint. Clearly you did not look up the differences between the two.

          • John_in_Amherst

             bonobos resolve intra-group conflict with sex – all sorts of sex, in all sorts of pairings.  Chimps often resort to violence.  Let me guess what sort of guy you are..

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            thats a very succinct analysis. thank you for understanding what I was talking about. personally, I’m a lover not a fighter.

        • notafeminista

          Dog whistle alert.

    • pete18

       Excellent point, well stated. I think it is clear that if someone waved a magic wand and made everyone the same race, humans as a species would begin to focus on other distinctions and groupings both with the same positive and negative results that we see now.

  • Dab200

    Why is your panel all black? Yesterday Meet the Press had also all black panel to discus the results of the verdict. It seams that the two sides are talking at each other rather than with each other.

  • OnPointComments

    F.S. §776.013(3) – Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Law
     
    “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

  • MrWakiki

    There should be a white person on the panel (but for the record Tom Ashbrook is still white) and s/he should point out all the things whites say when people of color are not around.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Part of me* has a feeling that our guests have a pretty good feeling what “whites say in private”.

      I’m imagining an SNL fake-gameshow skit about it. Could be pretty funny and biting in the right hands.

      (*Disclaimer: So white I’m freckled.)

      • MrWakiki

        the sad thing — and I feel you understand it — the way people of color are treated in the country… we are past biting satirical skits (I don’t freckle, but I am also white)

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      what do they say?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    “There is some new right-wing meme that blacks invoke Stand your Ground more than whites.” (Toure? at :24min)

    Glad to hear it.

    Seriously, I’m glad to hear someone on public radio talking about the right-wing meme rather than just absorbing and making it one of those MediaFacts(TM).

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      only 30% of the cases does the law help African americans. I don’t know what percent of floridas population is African american

  • homebuilding

    In Oklahoma, they call their ‘stand your ground’ law their
    “Make My Day” law. (really? Clint Eastwood is our standard of justice and society?)

    What a perversion–all those little walter mitty’s with otherwise inadequate manhood, beefing it up with firearms.

    Lots of practice for ER and trauma physicians–don’t know if we’ll be able to pay them, though.

    • notafeminista

      As opposed to all the low-esteem sad sack shirt renders who spend other peoples’ money to save us from ouselves.

      Say there homebuilding, would you deny a woman a gun to defend herself from an oppressor … or do you say she’s “beefing up her mandhood”?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Yeah, we’ve talked about lame-ass RW memes previously.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      do you think more people are shot by people with legal or illegal guns?

      • John_in_Amherst

        You are the NRA guy – you tell us.  2/3rds of all gun deaths are suicides, and I’m guessing most of those guns were “legal”.  

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          would that be better called an obfuscation or a non sequitur ?

    • jefe68

      Well, it was Dirty Harry who is a fictional character played by Clint Eastwood, that made that scripted line from a film. Which makes it even more perverse.
      That people in Oklahoma are that far gone to use that line in context to the stand your ground law, that tells me that they sound like the last people you want armed and walking around.

  • creaker

    The bottom line here is politicians get a break from talking about issues like the economy, jobs, debt, etc.  - and get to pontificate endlessly on something they won’t ever take any actual action on.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      and the NSA!

      • creaker

        You’re right! I forgot that one. See how it works? :-)

  • cmonjak

    I personally do not feel it is as much about race as about the way people carry themselves, a young black man in a button down shirt that is tucked in is not seen as a threat.  I believe people will lock their doors and cross the street if a white youth with a skin head and a hoodie was coming.  

    • orizano

      Sadly, well-groomed young black men in button down shirts ARE seen as threats. Fact, not fiction, learned from personal experience.

      • cmonjak

        I am sorry for your experience, global and personal affronts.  I have seen a young black man “shrug off” a slight that would have crushed me, an older (white) man refused to shake his hand upon meeting; I thought I knew that older man, but I did not.  My shame is I did not call the man on his action, making me culpable in the offence.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        more so than white 1% bikers?

      • notafeminista

        Making it anecdotal not empirical.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      But when we talk about the percentage of white youths who have shaved heads v. the percentage of black youths who wear hoodies, the likelihood of the situations you describe becomes unbalanced.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Whenever someone is a victim, the NRA says “If he had a gun…”

    Has anyone heard an NRA type say “If Martin had a gun he’d be alive today”?

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      “an NRA type”
      every NRA type knows children are not allowed pistols

  • CitizenCharlesFosterKane

    Stand your ground is the whiteness protection program.

    • pete18

       Except that African Americans have used it to defend their lives and have been treated equally fairly by the law in Florida (I don’t know about elsewhere) when tried in courts.

      • CitizenCharlesFosterKane

        No, they haven’t. Where do you get your”facts”?

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          I’m curious how the numbers break down for black Floridians standing their ground against white people who are threats.

          “Race of the victim” has been addressed on the panel today. And I don’t have a lot of faith in Florida cops when it comes to something like this.

        • pete18

          Tampa Bay Times:

          ” If Zimmerman had been black, would authorities in Sanford have been so
          quick to accept his claim of self-defense? Are black defendants less
          likely to walk free than people of other races in “stand your ground”
          cases?

          The Times analysis found no obvious bias in how black defendants have been treated:

          • Whites who invoked the law were charged at the same rate as blacks.

          • Whites who went to trial were convicted at the same rate as blacks.

          • In mixed-race cases involving fatalities, the outcomes were
          similar. Four of the five blacks who killed a white went free; five of
          the six whites who killed a black went free.

          • Overall, black defendants went free 66 percent of the time in fatal
          cases compared to 61 percent for white defendants — a difference
          explained, in part, by the fact blacks were more likely to kill another
          black.”
           
          http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/race-plays-complex-role-in-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/1233152

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I guess they don’t have much to say about that

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      that’s funny. totally inaccurate, but funny

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    I missed a few minutes. Did the show touch on Gov. (The Laws are Fine) Scott yet?

  • manganbr

    Does the “stand your ground” law mean that any bar fight could LEGALLY end in someone getting shot?

    • MrWakiki

      Stand your ground means… ANYthing can end in a person getting shot!

    • cmonjak

      most states do not allow the carry of firearms in bars, therefor stand your ground would not apply because you were committing a felony by carrying.  Do you feel, as several states do, that you have “the duty to retreat”, even in your own home?  You HAVE to run away from an intruder, even if your children are sleeping in the next room you MUST leave the house if you can, and leave the child to fend for itself.  THAT is the extreme in NY, Mass, CA, and many other “more enlightened” states..  somewhere there is a logical middle ground.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      should people not be able to defend themselves in bars? are bar fights benign events that never result in injury or death? why would a bar make a difference?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        You are pretending to be that ignorant, right?

        Really, can someone tell FB about drunk people and weapons?

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          perhaps we should ban alcohol then

      • manganbr

        Well I guess my point isn’t so much about the bar, but more about the idea that fights happen, and such altercations could get much less benign if the law sanctioned the use of deadly force in the case of every fist-fight. I’m not comfortable with the idea that any fight can escalate to this level. If self-defense is really what’s at stake here, aren’t there a variety of non-lethal alternatives? Granted in certain situations, a gun may be necessary, and I’m not even arguing against the right to carry concealed weapons. But in Zimmerman’s case particularly, it sounds like some mace spray would have served him just as well.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          “fights” are illegal unless its a legally sanctioned boxing or martial arts event. at those events measures are taken to make sure no one gets killed even though a few people have been. its easy to kill someone with your fists. over 700 americans are killed every year by “unarmed” people. any fight can be lethal that’s why you need to be able to use lethal force to defend yourself. mace is great in theory, sometimes it works sometimes it does not, a person can still harm you if you mace them. a 9mm +p self defense round fired into the center will stop a threat instantly. I used to keep a can of bear spray for self defense and I still have it handy . its probably more illegal if I defended my house with that than if I were to shoot an invader as that is labled not for use on humans( even though that’s what the police themselves use for riot control.)
          if you were on the ground under someone and tried to mace them you will probably get just as maced as them and then really unable to defend yourself.
          I’ve always believed that the mind is the best weapon.

  • William

    Address the issue how Mr. Zimmerman a Hispanic was being called a White-Hispanic by the MSM.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      There’s a whole show about the differing colors of Latinos, where they come from, how they get along with each other (or don’t), and how the American press sorta shorthands them into as few as one solid “bloc” of voters or consumers.

      But I’ve got a dollar that says that it’s not what you’re interested in.

      • William

         It is interesting to hear illegal immigrants all be described as Hispanic, while 25 percent are Asian. Additionally, the entire illegal immigration debate is framed that if you don’t agree amnesty you don’t like Hispanics. But Mr. Zimmerman, Hispanic, did not earn that same protection. Why is that?

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Your ideas of framing and what you hear really don’t warrant a response from me. They’re more indicative of your media consumption habits.

          • William

             So you only read media from your list of “approved” sources. Pretty open minded of you.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            I know what is and isn’t a waste of my time.

            Whatsa matter, I’m not the Alan “Coma” Colmes or Joe Lieberman faux-Democrat you’re used to?

          • pete18

             We all continue to wait with bated breath for the list of approved media sources from TF. It would be so easy to do and he talks so much about it, yet somehow he never seems to be able to put his money where his mouth is. I wonder why?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            he did but it was only a dollar and I don’t think he is going to pay up

          • notafeminista

            No but you are a student of George Lakoff aren’t you.

          • StilllHere

            He’s some warped post-bot, ignore.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        actually I would be very interested if you could find one other incidence of the term white Hispanic to describe anyone other than George Zimmerman in the NYT or elsewhere. give it a try. if you cant you can send me that dollar

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

       Race is a social construct, and “Hispanic” is even more flimsy.

      • notafeminista

        Want to stay with that line of thinking?

    • hennorama

      William – would you prefer the way the police report described Mr. Zimmerman’s R/S (Race/Sex)?

      W(hite)/M(ale)

      • William

         Would it not be best to tell the truth? “White-Hispanic”? Who dreams up such nonsense? Do we call Obama  “White-Black”?

        • hennorama

          William – TY for your response.

          What is “the truth” for you?

          • William

             Mr. Martin’s death has become a political pawn.

          • hennorama

            William – allow me to rephrase:

            What is “the truth” as to Mr. Zimmerman’s race/ethnicity? Please describe it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            light skinned Anglo- Peruvian octoroon mestizo?

            still don’t think race is a social construct?

  • Tom

    Racism could be a solidified neurological brain-state, as is any ingrained pattern in the brain which results in un-changeable thoughts and actions.
    There is some evidence that this may be the case, and this needs to be researched more, because a brain-state that can naturally and easily cure this disability has been documented in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

    http://drgrandville2.wordpress.com/2011/07/17/racism-a-stress-disorder/

    “if TM were a pill, it would be a billion-dollar blockbuster.”
    — Norman Rosenthal, M.D. Professor of Psychiatry, retired chief scientist at NIH.

    — from Tom in Vermont.

  • jocelynt

    I think this whole case is about race. If Trayvon were white, even dressed as he was, he would be alive. I believe that with every white fiber of my being. I believe he wouldn’t have been followed by Zimmerman, and I believe that if he had, he would have been able to defend himself. I believe that Zimmerman would have been arrested right away instead of after weeks of pressure from outsiders. 

    Do you also believe a woman asked for it because she dresses provocatively? Do you believe a shirt and tie lends credibility to your character? Ask Bernie Madoff. 

    I know appearances say a lot, but we need to retrain our ways. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      you can use force to defend yourself from someone walking behind you?
      there is no reason to believe any of your beliefs.
      a woman asked for what? the word provocatively means  doing something that provokes.

      • John_in_Amherst

         “Walking behind” sounds so much nicer than “furtively stalking, darting from shadow to shadow in pursuit of…”

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          yet neither is illegal

    • OnPointComments

      Both Martin and Zimmerman were initially engaged in lawful activities.  It was legal for Martin to be walking in The Retreat at Twin Lakes.  It was legal for Zimmerman to watch and follow Martin.  Both had the legal right to be there.  If Martin was scared because Zimmerman was following him, it would not have been legal for Martin to shoot Zimmerman because of that fear.  If Zimmerman was scared because he thought Martin was a criminal, it would not have been legal for Zimmerman to shoot Martin because of that fear.  It was the unlawful attack, the assault on Zimmerman by Martin, that gave rise to the claim of self-defense.

  • soundfriend

    A good example of what can happen when two people with less than good sense meet at the wrong place at the wrong time.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

       If only neither of them had a gun or took law enforcement into their own hands?  If only they were both adults?

      Neil

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      unfortunate side effect of testosterone

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    According to Allen West, it was his awesome parents kept him from being treated like other black men.

    Yeah, right, that’s it – it must be that Trayvon and Barack had UN-awesome parents.

    • notafeminista

      Awesome or no, they were largely absent.  Ding.

      • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

         There is no connection between one’s parents and whether one experiences racism or not.

        Allen West’s comment is illogical and lame.  Ding dong.

        Neil

        • notafeminista

          Then your comment regarding UN-awesome parents is also illogical and lame.  Make up your mind. 

          You don’t think offspring of Klan parents experience racism?

          • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

             I’m not the person making claims that an individual black person’s parents are to blame for that person falsely claim to be the victim of racism.

            What I am doing is pointing out that Allen West’s statement is silly on it’s face.  Likewise, to claim that President Obama is making up the racism he has faced is somehow inflammatory – is completely disingenuous.

  • William

    I wonder what is it like being White in a big city these days? There is an interesting article written about “Being White in Philly” which is a pretty accurate look at that city’s racial overtones.

     http://www.phillymag.com/articles/white-philly/

  • KindleQuilter

    As an Asian woman married to a black man, I will admit that every time my husband goes jogging, gets a flat tire, or is a little late in returning home from an errand, a little fearful voice rings in my head that maybe this is the day someone confuses him for a criminal or someone attacks him because of socialized stereotypes…and I’ll lose him forever. Few people know the fear in loving a black man because he is marked, always marked, and he walks a minefield every day, wondering if he’ll take the wrong step that will cost him his life.

    • MrWakiki

      here is a story that Poet Etheridge Knight tells

      Man: What is it when you think people are following you?

      Psychiatrist: You are paranoid.

      Man: What is when people are really following you?

      Psychiatrist: You are black.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      I am white and my wife worries in those situations as well

      • Mattyster

         I think you are intentionally being obtuse.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          really she says she worries in those situations because her husband is African American. I am not and my wife worries in those same situations. that’s what wives do. would she really not worry if her husband was another race and those things happened? someone is being obtuse and its not me

    • hennorama

      KQ – heard.

      No doubt your spouse feels some of the same things, but more likely about whether you might be the victim of a sexual assault, or worse.

      Fears for our loved ones are both universal and legion.

  • MargSumner

    If I, as one person, object to an insult and am told by people to “get over it,” that’s one thing. But in this nation, we have millions of people objecting to an insult. Don’t you think that if millions of people object, that there’s something to their viewpoint?

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      no. millions of people object to gay marriage. millions objected to ending slavery. millions objected to ending segregation.
      in this case they are objecting to a perceived insult just as it appears travon did. perhaps the president and media should explain to everyone how this was in fact the only correct verdict given the law and evidence. the man is a Harvard trained law professor he needs to do that not lend credence to this nonsense.

    • Bluejay2fly

      I used to go to a bar that had a map on the wall. It was in a town with a large seaport. I would point to Cuba and ask somebody what country is that. One person said Japan. Many thought Hawaii was immediately off the coast of California. Millions of Americans should have their HS diploma revoked as they are STUPID. I am not interested in someone’s opinion who thinks Canada was the Soviet Union.

  • MrWakiki

    couple sad things

    1) in a discussion on race in America, people complain there there are too many blacks on the panel (and not because they want other people of color on the panel)

    2) go to any city CraigsList and look at the comments about this case in ‘Rants and Raves’ 

    • TyroneJ

      Since blacks only make up 13% of the US population, the likelihood that blacks will be overrepresented on any panel is high because humans come in integer units and one isn’t likely to have a 100 person panel. (And 13 is a prime number.) On today’s panel, the only white person is Tom, so yes, this panel can’t be called “balanced”, but I don’t think anyone says it is supposed to be.

      • notafeminista

        True enough.  NPR has shown its bias on plenty of other occasions.

        • MrWakiki

          This is kind of funny. 

          I suppose that if they did a series on Teaching Math in Middle school they should use a lot of bakers to be on the panel.

          good one…

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      As far as “2)” is concerned, I’ll pass. I’ve given up free-diving in the cesspits of the internet.

      Thank you for doing it so we don’t have to, however.

  • Telecaster52

    Does anyone recall President Clinton’s statement on the OJ Simpson verdict?

  • JF

    I have to applaud the president coming out and addressing this case. Being an Asian mother with two young girls, although I am relieved that my daughter’s heritage & gender most likely would protect them in this case, I am outraged that any parents – any parents – need to worry about sending their children out to the neighborhood and not having them coming home safe.   The “Stand Your Ground” law is nonsensical because (1) it implicitly condones profiling and people acting violently with no consequence; and (2) it lets the people who supposingly “stand your ground” to be the judge and prosecutor, which is completely against the US criminal system that I understand.

    • OnPointComments

      Stand your ground has nothing to do with profiling, either implicitly or explicitly.  The law states that if you are attacked, you can meet force with force.

      • JF

         I think it does. Especially in this case where two strangers, who have no prior contacts, are involved, the person who “stands his/her ground” has to based on some assumptions – whether they are race/gender/religious background etc.  He looks suspicious because he looks X.  The fact that someone can claim “Stand Your Ground” without going through the judicial due process implicitly encourages profiling.

        • OnPointComments

          Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law says that if you are attacked, you can meet force with force.  You cannot use force against someone based on  race/gender/religious background etc., or for looking suspicious.

          • JF

             Yes, on paper it is but in reality there is no way or very difficult to prove as in this case.  NPR recently reported studies showing even well-meaning doctors made decisions with racial bias.  Although on paper the law says one cannot do it, it is also important to look deeper to see what behaviors it encourages.

          • OnPointComments

            There is evidence that Zimmerman was attacked.  It’s not difficult to prove in this case.

        • Telecaster52

          JF, your statements are emotion based and irrational.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      not really.

  • sharlyne1

    This is a terrible injustice, but rather than focusing solely on the racial aspect, shouldn’t equal attention be put on the legal system? I’m supremely disappointed in the prosecution. How could they not get everything necessary in order for the jury to convict Zimmerman beyond a reasonable doubt? If our legal system fails to prosecute justice in lieu of these circumstances how can we expect to heal as a nation and finally move forward?

    • StilllHere

      You say this based on what?  They did as much as they could with what they had to work.

    • notafeminista

      Oh stop it.  The prosecution did not fail to prosecute.  They failed in their attempt to prosecute. HUGE difference.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        they never had a case in the first place. we know this because the police did not arrest him until after they bowed to political pressure

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      do you think that’s its remotely possible they could not get evidence of a crime because one did not occur? what should they have done differently?

  • hennorama

    One irony in the Zimmerman case – the “Incident Address” on the police report:

    XXXX RETREAT View Circle Sanford, FL

    See:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/86400326/trayvon-martin-police-report

  • IsaacWalton

    ….Dear Mr. President, Trayvon could have been any white, hispanic, indian, asian…kid in that situation. My belief is he was profiled mostly because of the where he was, when he was there and what he was wearing. I’m not defending the actions of GZ but I suspect his mind said “THREAT” and he was EMPOWERED and EMBOLDENED with that gun to take it too far…he should have just reported it and left it at that..

    Guns can make heroes of cowards.

  • George Potts

    I find it interesting that no one is mentioning Rachel Jeantel’s comment.  She said that Trayvon thought that George Zimmerman was going to try and have sex with him.

    • TyroneJ

      Rachel Jeantel’s testimony was that she speculated to Trayvon that Zimmerman was possibly a (white) cracker homosexual rapist. But this is like using the n-word. It’s OK depending on who you are.

      But Rachel Jeantel’s testimony was problematic at a number of levels, starting with her lying to everyone involved at one time or another (e.g. Lying to Trayvon’s Mom about why she skipped Trayvon’s funeral, etc.) She was just a terrible witness who should not have been put on the stand. It’s the old problem of people you catch telling lies – the only truth you actually know is that the person is a liar, and you can never take anything they ever tell you at face value.

  • IsaacWalton

    Dear caller white woman….your color (IME) DOES get you preferential treatment…you just don’t know it’s happening.

    I would argue that there are surveys and tests that prove you wrong.

    • notafeminista

      Hard to take advantage of what you don’t know is there isn’t it.

    • Claire Chevrier

      Hi there,

         I don’t know if I am the white woman to whom you are referring. I am Claire from Burlington, Vt who can be heard around the 40th minute. I unequivocally agree with you. I was trying to say that white Americans tacitly benefit from racism through white privilege. I know that I get preferential treatment because the color of my skin doesn’t come with historical and promulgated stigmas and isn’t met with racism. What I was trying to say is that racism will continue to exist if people think it is only a black issue. Even the NYT said that the time in between Trayvon Martin’s death and Zimmerman’s arrest caused “outrage in Black communities.” I just wanted to say that, on the record, as a white woman, I think that it is devastating that so many people called in to say that their white friends didn’t seem as intrigued by the case because I think it is that very issue that perpetuates racism. If people don’t think that racism affects everyone, then it will always, sadly exist. 
         If it was a different white woman caller to whom you were referring who suggested that she wasn’t getting preferential treatment, then it was to her that I was speaking. 

      Claire 

  • George Potts

    When I hear the president’s speech, I heard a call to more riots even though the president directly called for no more riots.

    • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

       You need to get a Babel Fish.

      What riots have there been?

      • George Potts
        • hennorama

          Same thing as above, only less so.

      • George Potts

         http://rt.com/usa/california-zimmerman-protest-police-152/

        • hennorama

          OK, then.  A couple of videos showing people milling about, interrupting traffic.  A few photos depicting police interacting with the public, a tiny fire in the middle of a street, some litter.

          AKA – NOT a riot.

      • George Potts

         http://www.infowars.com/la-times-covered-up-looting-for-trayvon-riot/

        • hennorama

          inforwars.com

          WARNING: Repeated exposure may cause “contact stupidity.”

        • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

           Infowars is simply not credible.  On anything.

          Citing Infowars is how you instantly lose all your credibility.

      • George Potts

         http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/miami-teens-ransack-loot-local-walgreens-in-trayvon-martin-protest/

        • hennorama

          An incident from March 27, 2012.

          Yes, that’s relevant today.

          Yeah, right.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Thanks for reading the Daily Fncker so we don’t have to.

            Carlson seems to be running the bottom rung of the ladder for people who can’t get their wingnut welfare from more “respectable” places. Is there a right-wing site that is more like the DuMont Television Network than the Daily Caller?

          • hennorama

            TF – TY for your response.

            While reserving comment as to Mr. Carlson’s enterprise, no reading was required – the date is right in the link.

          • notafeminista

            Hey thanks for the reminder.  We still await anxiously for your list of approved sources.

            The silence is both deafening and telling.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Hey, I’m just someone at a keyboard in suburbia who is enjoying too much poking holes in Tucker Carlson and whatever else passes for RW media crit..

            I don’t have to stoop to conquer you. It’s not worth the provberbial ammo.

      • George Potts

         http://www.loop21.com/life/alabama-revenge-for-trayvon-beating-not-hate-crime

        • hennorama

          “Revenge for Trayvon” Beating Not a Hate Crime, Police Say
          CLAUDIO EDUARDO CABRERA 1 year ago

          1 YEAR AGO.

          Irrelevant.

      • George Potts

         http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-07-15/news/bs-md-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-monday-20130715_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-baltimore-police

        • hennorama

          Also NOT a riot

      • George Potts

         http://www.alipac.us/f9/trayvon-martin-revenge-beating-78-year-old-attacked-6-youths-video-283409/

        • hennorama

          “He believes they were picking on him in retaliation for the Trayvon Martin case. He says they said “don’t kill him or we all go to jail”.

          1 person – NOT a riot.

    • nj_v2

      When i read your post, i see a desperate troll, even though your screen name is not “DesperateTroll.”

      [[ "Police say the robbery and assault of a 78-year-old Toledo man by six juveniles were not racially motivated and his account of what happened might have been exaggerated.

      On Thursday, Toledo police Capt. Wes Bombrys said investigators determined the crime involving Dallas Watts was not racially motivated. On Friday, police Sgt. Phil Toney agreed, adding, "After the investigation, it was revealed that the story told by Mr. Watts was somewhat exaggerated, although he was assaulted and robbed. His story as to how everything happened appears to be a little bit exaggerated." ]]

      http://www.examiner.com/article/white-toledo-man-78-beaten-by-youths-this-is-for-trayvon-martin

  • Tom

    repeat post I deleted, but can’t delete these posts.

    • hennorama

      Tom – thanks for posting this link.

      A brief scan brought this to my attention:

      “Threat automatically elicits the Stress Response in the brain, which switches on the [response] pattern that is governed by midbrain centers.”

      The acronym for the response pattern:  SOB (Survival-Oriented-Behavior).

      The hilarity of that acronym continued in the description of SOB:

      “Some common features of SOB are
      -Aggressiveness, ruthlessness, tendency for brutality
      -Impulsiveness, difficult to control anger
      -Lack of compassion, empathy
      -Strong egoism (a key survival feature)
      -Dishonesty, unreliability, low ethical standards (due to inconsiderate egoism and lack of empathy)”

      In effect, when a human encounters “some S.O.B.,” our brain responds, and with a different sort of SOB.

      Oh, the humanity ….

      • Bluejay2fly

        I think its lack of impulse control. I work in a prison and everyday I see a young inmate get punished because he got angry and couldn’t control his temper. Group interaction makes it even worse as they often travel in a gang. I have seen inmates stabbed over an minor insult. On the street that same person would be shot dead. They operate on a reptilian brain.

  • manganbr

    Where is the legal line between “standing one’s ground” and “advancing” on the perceived threat? Does the stand your ground law, for instance, authorize pre-emptive strikes? (that tends to work out poorly . . once again, the WMD’s were never found). Even one of the jurors acknowledged that Zimmerman made a “mistake” in getting out of the car and pursuing Martin after calling the police. So what I want to know is how that juror reconciled this “mistake” with the parameters of the stand your ground law. 

    • TyroneJ

      All the talk about “stand your ground” in the Zimmerman case is a red herring. Zimmerman never used stand your ground in his legal defense because his contention always was that when he fired his gun, Trayvon was on top of him. That precludes any possibility of retreating.

      All of the people using this case to attack stand your ground laws are hijacking this case for their own political agenda.

      The real issue, and only issue, is whether Zimmerman focused on Trayvon because Trayvon was black.

      • George Potts

        There is still a question of whether Trayvon could have retreated without confronting Zimmerman.

        I believe the trial answered that question.

        The President is mistakenly trying to insert himself into this case.  If he answers any questions from the press, he may libel George Zimmerman in his emotional state.

      • manganbr

        I raised this question because apparently at least a couple of the jurors indicated that the law was an issue in their decision. I’m trying to understand their thought process. That IS a real issue to me.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      perhaps they reviewed the evidence and saw that zim did not pursue travon after he was informed they did not need him to do that

  • George Potts

    “Stand your ground” was not used by the George Zimmerman defense.  They used the “self-defense”.

    It is wrong to use the George Zimmerman case to try and justify bias as a reason why African American’s are disproportionately represented in jails.

    The reasons are the ineffective drug laws, tolerance of lawlessness by police and poor neighborhoods, and lack of education choice in inner cities.

    If we could take the same money we are currently spending in the poor communities and remove incentives to not work, we could improve lives and reduce prison populations.

    But when it is better for you to keep collecting and working 40 hours a week will put another $100 in your pocket, there is no question that unskilled workers will continue to face the economic desert of reliance on government transfer payments and avoid entering the real economy.

    • JF

       The defense did not have to use it because they knew – as well as the prosecutors and lawyers knew – it is given out as part of the juror  instructions.  They were smart not to use it and stick to self-defense.

    • JobExperience

       “Arbeit Macht Frei” is the slogan you expand upon.
      Original available above gate at Auschwitz, or in the WalMart Handbook.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      the drug laws cause much of this. we need to end prohibition

  • hypocracy1

    BOARD RIOT!! 

    THIS IS FOR TRAYVON!!

    • JobExperience

       New Olympic event: Chasing a Boy with your gun.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        is that what happened? there is the modern pentathlon and biathlon

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    how do you know race would have made a difference?

  • Dee

    What another Supreme Injustice the John Robert’s Court’s
    adds to this populations’ and other minorities pain & suffer-
    ing daily by striking down the Voting Rights of 1965……..

    Those hard core conservative judges are the shame of our
    times and I for one remain convinced those members will
    one day be told to “GO NOW” as the American puppet…
    Mubarak of Egypt was told 2 years ago…

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       SCOTUS didn’t strike down the voting rights act but only a small portion that is unconstitutional — don’t you believe all states should be treated equally?

      • StilllHere

        She can’t support discrimation?!

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        This crap again?

        States with a history of scrubbing out black voting  got treated specially until they conduct themselves like adults.

        • pete18

           And all the court said is that the feds can’t apply data from 50 or 60 years ago on a state now to restrict them from altering their voting laws. They must use current data that shows pattern of discrimination to justify the special treatment. Otherwise there would be no recognition by the law that states had the ability to change or improve their record on discrimination or act like “adults.”

          Did they miss that part of the ruling on Balloon Juice?

      • Dee

        Please listen and be guided by what the president said at his news conference … the pain Black Americans feel is based on eperience and history…

        And it is on this experience & history the Florida count
        and the US Supreme Court is guilty of failing this minority group and others the current reality..pain & suffering.

        Indeed, the Florida Court and the US Supreme Court is
        guilty of dismissing hundreds of pages of testimony it
        received in such cases for review .This is the injustice
        today…dismissing reality and claiming the system has
        “changed”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    are you now speaking on behalf of all white americans and all black americans?

    • OnPointComments

      I didn’t get to cast my vote in the election of orizano as the spokesperson for all white Americans.  An ID was required to vote, and I couldn’t figure out how to get one.

  • Steve_in_Vermont

    Regarding “racism” it appears we’re going to try and talk this issue to death. Reminds me of the “war on drugs”. Let’s meet, form discussion groups, and so on. But in the end nothing changes. The bottom line is there are millions of people, on both sides, with strongly held beliefs, that they are afraid to express because it would label them as “racist”. We haven’t even begun to have an “open and balanced conversation” about race. I question if we are, at least right now, capable of doing so.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      what’s different is that a supermajority of people know the war on drugs is BS. nothing changes on the drug war not because of what the population wants but because of the entrenched interests who perpetuate the prohibition nightmare in this country

    • Dee

      Re Steve in Vermont….
       
      There is no such thing as “a balance ” on racism.
       
      Just as there is no balance between the occupied
      and occupiers…Yet in our corrupt US Middle East
      Policy the Zionist apologists like John Mc Cain and
      John Kerry are promising to stand and protect the
      occpiers over the occupied and misappropriate US
      Tax payers dollars and the military in violation of
      our American will and US Federal Laws prohibiting
      aid to human rights abusers.

      They should be reined in and charged accordingly
      today ..just as the hard core conservatives on the
      Supreme Court who voted against retaining the
      Voting Rights of 1965…..

      Beyond disgust and in revolt…..Dee

    • hennorama

      Steve_in_Vermont – This is an evolutionary process, not a revolutionary one.

      “Each successive generation seems to be making progress.” – Bryan Monroe (a guest today)

      “And let me just leave you with a final thought that, as difficult and challenging as this whole episode has been for a lot of people, I don’t want us to lose sight that things are getting better. Each successive generation seems to be making progress in changing attitudes when it comes to race. It doesn’t mean we’re in a post-racial society. It doesn’t mean that racism is eliminated. But when I talk to Malia and Sasha, and I listen to their friends and I seem them interact, they’re better than we are — they’re better than we were — on these issues. And that’s true in every community that I’ve visited all across the country.” – President Barack Obama

      • Bluejay2fly

        Things are getting better and worse at the same time. There are probably no places in America where I can get a table ahead of Will Smith in a restaurant because I am white. Being rich and famous trumps race most if not all of the time. Meanwhile, 60% of NYS prisons are black while they are 17% of the population. I can also tell you working with them everyday almost NONE if released tomorrow could work a job or would work a job. They lack the language skills, math skills, critical thinking skills, and the writing skills that the job market needs. Furthermore, they will never own a Verasce, Armani, or Prada clothes even making 50K a year, even if they were lucky enough to fall into that high a paying job. Crime affords them them the only employment which meets their financial needs and matches their skill set. Our state will continue to send Blacks and Hispanics to prison in record numbers and then employ impoverished white, rural people to look after them. It’s a jobs program for mainly whites and a way to take many unemployable people out of circulation.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          that’s what’s sad is prisons have become for profit human warehouses. they used to teach people job skills and offer degrees in prison so maybe they could get something positive to keep them from coming back. its shameful

      • Steve_in_Vermont

        Hennorama – When you said “evolutionary process” that was probably the most realistic, meaningful statement I’ve heard in a long time. Why had I lost sight of that?. It reminded me that here it Vermont, decades ago, the idea of gay rights (civil unions) provoked such a storm of protest several supporters failed to win re-election in our legislature and we thought that would never happen. Now we have same sex marriage. I suspect that generations from now people of all races will be asking “what was that all about?”. Until then we have some rough patches ahead and what years I have left I hope that, if I can’t help, at least I won’t stand in the way. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

  • jocelynt

    This is in response to Futo Buddy, but I don’t think I replied right:

     How many white kids worry about being followed in their father’s neighborhood when visiting him? Can you point to any similar examples where a white kid was walking down the street and not doing anything but walking? Let me guess, you are going to tell me that the media doesn’t cover those stories.

    I never worry that a police man is going to stop me, or worry that I will be followed. How do you know race isn’t a factor?

    I believe race is involved because of the violent racial history we have in America. I believe race is involved because even though we have elected a black president, he is the president with the highest number of death threats. I believe race is involved because of the black woman sitting in jail for 20 years for firing a single warning shot when she was at risk, in the same state of Florida. I believe race is involved because of how slow Sanford police were in investigating this murder, even though they told Zimmerman to stay put in the 911 call, even though they knew him to have that capacity to act. I believe race is involved because we still have inequality.

    How can you say race *doesn’t* have anything to do with it? By the way, I did say it was what I believed. You can disagree.

    • OnPointComments

      “I believe race is involved because of the black woman sitting in jail for 20 years for firing a single warning shot when she was at risk, in the same state of Florida.”  The black woman who is sitting in jail for 20 years is Marissa Alexander.
       
      After Ms. Alexander was safely out of her husband’s home, where she had not lived for 2 months, she retrieved a handgun from her car’s glove box and returned to his house.  She pointed the gun at her husband and his two children, and when he put his hands in the air in surrender, she fired the gun at him and his children, narrowly missing her husband’s head.  Her husband and his children fled the house and called 911; Ms. Alexander stayed in the house and never called 911.  Ms. Alexander rejected a 3 year plea deal.  Ms. Alexander was convicted and received a 20-year sentence, on three counts of aggravated assault, after 12 minutes of deliberation by the jury.

      • OnPointComments

        By the way, the jury that convicted Marissa Alexander was comprised of three women and three men, one of them an African-American woman.

        • notafeminista

          ..and not a peep about a person who fired a gun in such close proximity to and very possibly towards 2 11 year old children.

          Although to be fair, she didn’t have a “manhood to beef up.”

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            when travon was on top of Zimmerman there were two 11 year old children on top of him?

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      1. my father grew up in the south Bronx.
      2. I think your question needs some sort of antecedent phrase.
      3. I worry about the police bothering me. maybe it has nothing to do with race. police arrest and jail white people all day. they kill 8 times as many americans as terrorists. I think we should all be concerned about them.
      4. I know that whatever media you consume has not mentioned that the woman you refer to left her house and then drove back in order to fire shots at the  house. kinda hard to claim self defense when you drive away and then drive back. I don’t think that’s an appropriate punishment for her though. I can’t see how improperly convicting Zimmerman of murder when he did not would help that woman at all. two wrongs do not make a right.
      5. it was not a murder. a jury decided that. the incident was invesgated right away. George was questioned at the station for 6 hours that night. there was no evidence of a crime it was only because of racemongering by the media that he was ever charged.
       they never said “stay put”. not that that matters. so because racism in general exists it must be involved in this case?
      some people believe the moon is made of green cheese

      • Bluejay2fly

        Well said.

  • Dee

    Rise up against The New Jim Crow today….

    http://prospect.org/article/new-jim-crow-0

  • Geheran1958

    While the president’s remarks on his personal encounters with discrimination are understandable, the fact that non-blacks exercise their right to “discriminate” is likewise understandable. Informed citizens regarding the indisputable crime statistics of the incidence of Black crime is but one element of a self-defence. Adult Black males make up less than 10% of the US population but account for over 50% of felonies and over 50% of the homicides committed against non-blacks not to mention over 90% of Black-on-Black murders. Message to the Black community: “Heal thyself”.

    • MrBigStuff

      The problem isn’t the black community- it’s the whites that made it that way. At least that’s the argument from Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson and the like. I especially love blacks like Bill Cosby and Dr. Ben Carson who challenge the black community to “heal thyself” and are labelled as traitors to their race. Nothing says a traitor quite like self-improvement and healing.

  • Michiganjf

    This is for the GENIUS who thinks Florida is too warm for a hoodie in February… just one of many, with a quick Google search:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/florida-shivers-crops-freeze-in-record-breaking-cold-photos/2012/01/05/gIQAViCicP_blog.html

    • hennorama

      Perhaps the call screener was just a bit inattentive – it is Monday morning after all.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      it was raining and cold that’s why Zimmerman muttered under his breath “its f-ing cold” and we all know what that gor turned into in the editing room

  • StilllHere

    America is post-racial, clearly, but there is a whole cottage industry of people who live off of seeing racism everywhere and use it as their chief excuse-making device.

    • MrBigStuff

      Such as Al Sharpton?

  • Geheran1958

    Earlier this year in Brunswick, GA, a thirteen month old toddler was shot dead in his stroller at point-blank range as his mother looked on helplessly. The perps were Black teens. Where was the outrage or “OnPoint” “gold standard” discussions of this tradegy? Where were the protestors and T-shirt images of this baby? Where was the voices of Rev Al and Obama counseling their constituencies to improve parental supervision? And where was the mass media? Oh, did I neglect to mention that the victim is Caucasian?

    • StilllHere

      Sounds like a hate crime.  Was this line of investigation pursued?

      • Geheran1958

        Have not seen any follow ups to the initial report. It appears to have been forgotten, ignored or subject to PC. The police and mother reportedly said it was a robbery attempt. When the mother claimed she had no cash, one of the teens shot tha baby. Does that qualify as a hate crime?

    • hennorama

      Geheran – what is your point?  That every homicide involving a firearm should be front page news?

      If so, I agree.

      • Geheran1958

        My point? There seems to be a double standard when it comes to how the Black community, mass media and, yes, our C-I-C deal with some crimes. The horrific Black-on-Black incidence of homicide rarely gets more than an “honorable mention” in the media; ditto the grossly disproportionate rate of Black-on-non-Black homicides. The TM tradegy is a case in point where certain members of the Black leadership seize every opportunity to play the race/victim card while virtually ignoring the glaring problems in their own backyard.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        that would be great.

    • hypocracy1

       Were the murderers in this case acquitted as well?

      • Bluejay2fly

        Come on, do you think that was self defense?

    • OnPointComments

      Or how about Marley Lion?  Marley Lion was a 17 year old who had just graduated from an academic magnet school.  He was asleep in his car when he was shot and killed by criminals.  Prior to Elizabeth O’Neill creating a photo that asks what’s the difference between the Trayvon Martin killing and the Marley Lion killing, the killing of Marley Lion did not receive any national attention.  Oh, did I neglect to mention that the victim is Caucasian, and the murderers are black?
       
      What is my point?  My point is that Trayvon Martin’s death is tragic, but it is not more tragic than the death of Marley Lion.  Marley Lion’s death has not been the subject of manufactured racial outrage.
       
      Were the murderers in the case of Marley Lion acquitted as well?  No, they were not.  There was no evidence whatsoever that Marley Lion attacked the individuals who were walking through the parking lot where he was sleeping.
       
      Black leaders in the community have said that the difference is that they wanted George Zimmerman to be charged and brought to trial.  Their wish was granted.  It’s clear now that their goal is not justice, it’s vengeance.

      • hennorama

        OPC – I disagree with your last sentence, as well as your words about “manufactured racial outrage.”

        That said, one also could say that in both cases, the judicial system worked.  Whether that was due to or in spite of “any national attention” is not my call.

        Disclaimer: I say that without the benefit of having all of the evidence, and based solely on my limited knowledge of both cases.

        • OnPointComments

          IMO, there is clear and convincing evidence that the main stream media has manufactured much of the racial outrage.  Since it’s already been done many times, I’ll not bother to list all of the fraudulent reporting, misconduct, and ethical lapses from the media in reporting on the Zimmerman case.

          • hennorama

            OPC – TY again for your response.

            As to what you described as “manufactured racial outrage,” let’s throw out “manufactured,” as one doubts that we will find agreement, and it is not the most important word of the three. Plus, we’ve already agreed that the newsfotainment industry coverage is motivated solely by $$.

            Outrage – while not being qualified to speak on behalf of any group (even my dog disagrees with me at times), my observation is that what you are observing is better described as profound disappointment. A head shaker. A reason to ask “Again? Really?”

            That leaves us with “racial.” If we substituted the word “black,” would your meaning be different? I think not.

            The Martin/Zimmerman case resulted in losses for both parties, their families and loved ones, and their communities. I’ll leave it to others as to the morality involved, but I’m certain that Mr. Zimmerman is not the same person he was the moment before he pulled the trigger on that rainy Florida night, and I’m equally certain that Mr. Martin’s family and loved ones’ lives are also not the same.

            But rather than focus on their losses, I choose to look forward, and join President Obama in the sentiment of his closing words:

            “And let me just leave you with a final thought that, as difficult and challenging as this whole episode has been for a lot of people, I don’t want us to lose sight that things are getting better. Each successive generation seems to be making progress in changing attitudes when it comes to race. It doesn’t mean we’re in a post-racial society. It doesn’t mean that racism is eliminated. But when I talk to Malia and Sasha, and I listen to their friends and I seem them interact, they’re better than we are — they’re better than we were — on these issues. And that’s true in every community that I’ve visited all across the country.”

          • OnPointComments

            If there had been protests over the murder of Marley Lion, I wonder how it would have been viewed, and what the President’s reaction
            would have been. 
             
            If someone had organized crowds to express outrage over the collapse of black family structure; obscenely high out-of-wedlock birth rate;
            fathers who abandon their children; school dropout rate and lack of education; high unemployment; drug use; the hip hop culture that celebrates the thug lifestyle, drug abuse, and the degradation of women; among other facts, all of which contribute to the number of black vs. non-black murderers being disproportionately far higher than their representation in the population as a whole, would the President have addressed the nation about Marley Lion?  My guess is that he wouldn’t have.
             
            Would the President have told us that when we see a woman on an elevator, clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath because a black man boarded the elevator, to remember that she views crime through a set of experiences and a history that doesn’t go away?  I don’t think so; if he spoke of it at all, he might have said that we should judge an individual on the individual’s actions, not those of someone else even if they are based on history and experience.
             
            I doubt that Eric Holder have launched an investigation and set up a tip line to root out the cause of the murder of Marley Lion.
             
            Maybe the President would have consoled the family of Marley Lion, and told us that younger generations interact better than we do; those comments would have been compassionate and welcomed.  But I doubt anyone would have asked that we have a national discussion about the cause of the death of Marley Lion.

          • hennorama

            OPC – thank you for your thoughtful response.

            All of the preceding aside, the bottom line for me is a desire that each of the at least 8,583 victims of homicides involving a firearm becomes front page news.

            (The 8,583 victims figure is from the FBI’s 2011 Expanded Homicide Data Table 8, Murder Victims by Weapon, 2007–2011)

            http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I feel like when you edit a 911 tape to make it sound like a guy used a racial epithet that you are manufacturing racial outrage.  can you justify or explain that?

          • hennorama

            $$$$$

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            yeah. I blame Hearst he invented all this type of thing and  started wars and destroyed our country to sell newspapers

      • nj_v2

        Bogus comparison. Fail.

        Nature of the two cases is completely different.

        One appears to be a “simple” assault and robbery where race was irrelevant to the commission of the crime.

        The other, where Mr Martin was followed/stalked by someone who appeared to have racial bias, and who initiated the events which lead to Mr Martin being shot.

        And in the Lion case, police immediately investigated, made an arrest. In the Martin case, no police action until substantial public reaction forced it.

        It continues to be disturbing, but not surprising, to watch the forum conservoclown posse fall every which way over their sorry selves to deny racial aspects of events that are as clear as day, so blind are they to the realities of living as a minority in a white-dominated culture.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          the police did immediately  investigate. Zimmerman was interrogated that night for 6 hours. witnesses were interviewed.  there was no evidence of a crime so they, properly, did not make an arrest. when the media and politicians put pressure on them only then did they arrest him. that’s not right and that’s not supposed to happen in our system.
          how did you determine to a “clear as day” standard that Zimmerman was a homicidal racist?

    • OnPointComments

      Here is the photo created by Elizabeth O’Neill. I neglected to include it in my comment below.

      • hennorama

        OPC - what is your point?  That every homicide involving a firearm should be front page news?
        If so, I agree.

        • OnPointComments

          See my response below.  I neglected to include the photo in my first comment.

      • hypocracy1

        What’s the difference?  Besides the murderers going to jail?

        • OnPointComments

          I liked Disqus better when it indicated that a comment has been edited.  But it is interesting to see how comments get changed after the initial posting.
           
          You were wise to edit your initial reply.

  • OnPointComments

    All of the evidence supports that Martin attacked Zimmerman.

  • Geheran1958

    “Discrimination” can hardly be deemed offensive when it is exercised as a mechanism of self-defence. All Blacks as well as non-blacke discriminate every day. We discriminate in the products we choose to buy,movies to avoid, people we associate with, etc. Mr Obama’s remarks notwithstanding, the horrifically disproportionate number of felons, including homicides, committed by adult Black males make it clear as to why so many non-blacks exercise their right to discriminate. Message to the Black community: look in the mirror.

    • hennorama

      Geheran – there’s discrimination as in “being choosy” and then there’s discrimination as in “unthinking categorical prejudice.”

      You wrote of “Discrimination” …. exercised as a mechanism of self-defence” and that you believe “[a statistical point about a very small portion of the US population] make[s] it clear as to why so many [people who are not part of that very small portion of the US population] exercise their right to discriminate” [against a much larger portion of the US population].

      Please correct me if I’ve misinterpreted your words.

      • Geheran1958

        Don’t entirely agree with your definitions. In my book, to “discriminate” is to recognize a distinction; to be “prejudiced” is to have a preconceived opinion based neither on reason nor experience. Assuming that the aforementioned definitions are accurate, we are on the same wavelength.

        • hennorama

          Geheran – TY for your response.

          There are indeed several distinct definitions for the word “discrimination,” including those I wrote. I editorialized a bit by adding “unthinking,” but that’s implied by “categorical.” Feel free to remove the word “unthinking” if you feel that is helpful.

          Rather than argue over definitions, let me try a different approach. I’m going to again take a portion of your original post and substitute a few words, [in brackets]:

          “Mr Obama’s remarks notwithstanding, the horrifically disproportionate number of [crashes], including [fatalities], committed by [drivers of black, blue and grey vehicles] make it clear as to why so many [people who don't own or drive black, blue and grey vehicles] exercise their right to discriminate. Message to the [manufacturers, sellers, owners and drivers of black, blue and grey vehicles]: look in the mirror.”

          FYI – at least one analysis identified “a number of colours were associated with higher crash risk. These colours … include black, blue, grey …”

          Now for three questions:

          - should [people who don't own or drive black, blue and grey vehicles] “discriminate” as to [drivers of black, blue and grey vehicles] and/or [manufacturers, sellers, owners and drivers of black, blue and grey vehicles]?

          -what distinction have you recognized, based on reason and experience, that led to your views on the first word in your original post – “Discrimination”?

          -who do you think “so many non-blacks” should choose to “exercise their right to discriminate” about – “adult Black males,” or “the Black community,” or both, or neither?

          Thanks again for your response.

          Source:
          http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/muarc263.pdf

          • Geheran1958

            The automotive analogy aside, the distinction based on reason and experience is the indisputable and grossly disproportionate incidence of homicides perpetrated by adult Black maies. This fact alone would give non-blacks cause for being inherently suspicious of adult Black males. Not saying that this feeling is right or wrong but that it is understandable. That said, even the President seems to have his suspicions when he referred to Blacks hearing the “clicks” as drivers lock their cars when observing Blacks nearby. This observation

  • Samy_2012

    Why don’t we invest in our children?I wrote the story of how 20 years ago I was grabbed around the neck in a vice like choking grip. Punched in the head hard. For no reason, outside a Washington DC memorial. They were kids, no more than 14 at most. How & why did they get to be so ruthless? others have responded that this is a common rite of passage. We worry about the race issue but we don’t do anything to nurture the children. 
    Please see this inspiring & amazing video from Paraguay http://www.upworthy.com/watch-the-first-54-seconds-that-s-all-i-ask-you-ll-be-hooked-after-that-i-swear?g=2

  • Mattyster

    As a 62 year old white woman I’m outraged at this verdict and at the idea that this was not about race.  It is obviously about race.  The underlying conclusion of this verdict – that it’s OK for whites to be afraid of blacks, and therefore (now that there are stand-your-ground laws) it’s OK for whites to shoot blacks they’re afraid of – is disgusting and embarrassing. 

    • Telecaster52

      Mattyster, your statements are emotion based and irrational.

      • Mattyster

         You are wrong.

      • jefe68

        As opposed to being misguided.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Did you watch all or part of the trial?

      The verdict had nothing to do with “whites being afraid of blacks”.  It had to do with a man defending himself because he was in fear for his life while being pummeled into the cement.

      Also, stand your ground was never used by the defense in the Zimmerman trial.

      This is the problem with race hustlers spreading mis-information.  They stir the pot and get folks like Mattyster upset for no reason.  No one is saying it is OK for whites to shoot blacks simply because they are ‘afraid’.

      • Mattyster

         The man who (may have been) pummeled created his own situation after ignoring the police direction NOT to follow the ‘suspect’.  How do you think Trayvon felt?  Do you suppose he felt threatened?  Or does that not count.  Does he not have the right to defend himself from a stalker by using his fists?  I guess if he’d been carrying a gun and killed Zimmerman that would have been better. 

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          These facts were introduced at the trial:

          -Martin had 4 minutes to go 300 feet to his home after he started running until he threw the first punch breaking Zimmerman’s nose

          If Martin feared for his life why didn’t he simply go home and call 911?

          -Zimmerman was first asked by the 911 operator “where is he going?”  Then later he was told “we don’t need you to do that”.  Zimmerman claims he didn’t follow but went to find a house number to tell police.

          Even if Zimmerman was following Martin there is no law against Zimmerman walking the sidewalk in his neighborhood — just like Martin.

          Why does Martin get to throw a punch at Zimmerman?  That is assault and is a crime.

          -Zimmerman’s story is he was going back to his car and Martin came up from behind and then sucker punched him and broke his nose.  There were no witnesses at the scene but Ms. Jeantell was on the phone with Martin and believes that Martin did throw that first punch.

          You believe it would be better if Martin killed Zimmerman?  That is sick. [Is this where I get to call you an anti-Hispanic racist?]   This is a tragedy that was started by a misunderstanding on both sides.

          By all accounts Zimmerman is a good man. He mentors disadvantaged black youth. He came to the defense of black homeless man who he felt was abused by the local police. He has helped neighbors who were victims of crime.

          The message we should tell our children and grandchildren is to avoid physical altercations because we can never tell if they can get of hand with dire and unpredictable consequences. [Notice this message has nothing to do with race but is applicable to this tragedy]. Why are none of the ‘black’ leaders promoting this common sense message? Could it be they only get power by dividing us and stirring the pot?

          • brettearle

            If Zimmerman followed Martin, whether it’s legal or not, it still could be justification for Martin to possibly stand his ground.

            We don’t know if Zimmerman told the Truth about No Pursuit–and that he was simply trying to retrieve a house number.

            The area of debate where I might see your point is the following:

            How do we determine the legitimacy of a threat vs perceived threat?

            In certain cases, the Law does not necessarily distinguish–which I think is somewhat unfair…..

            However, you and I don’t know if Zimmerman actually drew his gun–BEFORE the skirmish.  We don’t know if Zimmerman is telling the TRUTH.

            If Martin WAS AWARE of the gun, then he might have had a legitimate claim to not only stand his ground and defend himself….but also to go further to render the gunholder defenseless, lest he possibly be shot

            Therefore, Martin might have been quite concerned that he MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN able to get back to his father’s place–without facing the possibility of serious injury.

                  **************

            There has been ample discussion on this case, on both sides.

            Maybe I haven’t listened closely enough….

            But are you going to tell me that MSM has repressed Zimmerman’s Samaritan good-works that you speak of.

            Unquestionably, we would have heard about this–if only on Fox.

            While you would unlikely report this, unless you, yourself, verified it, please cite your sources.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            “If Zimmerman followed Martin, whether it’s legal or not, it still could
            be justification for Martin to possibly stand his ground.”

            How so? What would he be standing his ground against?  That the police were on the way to investigate suspicious behavior?

            I agree that there is much about this case which we can’t be certain.

            However, you don’t swing a punch at someone who is holding a gun on you.  There was no evidence about a struggle for a gun during the 40 second fight.  I find that scenario unlikely.  Mr. Good observed 10 seconds of the fight and he didn’t see a struggle for a gun.

            Did Martin think Zimmerman was a gay rapist?  Ms. Jeantell claims she planted this seed in Martin’s consciousness.   However, we’ll never truly know why Martin attacked Zimmerman.

          • pete18

             The only place that I’ll disagree with you is that however unlikely it is that Martin attacked Zimmerman in self defense at least based on the available evidence, it is at least possible. We don’t know for sure what Zimmerman did when he approached Martin. If Martin thought Zimmerman had a gun and was threatening him, going after him and trying to knock his head into the cement could certainly be justified. However, since that evidence wasn’t there I think the jury made the right call.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Possible?  Yes, but unlikely.  If Zimmerman had his gun out would Martin have punched him or gone for the gun?  If Zimmerman had the gun out during the 40 second fight wouldn’t he have used it in some defensive manner (eg, pistol whip)?  Martin had no wounds other than the gunshot.

          • pete18

             Agreed on all points, except that in real world altercations what people do isn’t always rational or predictable.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Good point.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            if there is a gun you instinctively go for it not punch the person in the face.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            and the abrasion on his finger where it contacted zimmermans teeth when he broke his nose

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Regarding the ‘sources’ of Zimmerman’s good works — the neighbor account and the mentoring were both introduced during the trial.

            I’ve heard these accounts in multiple places including on CNN (where I also watched much of the trial).  I believe it was reported that Zimmerman took an African-American woman to his prom.

            It was also reported in the Tampa Bay Times that the FBI interviewed 40 or 50 people and could find no history of racial animus in Zimmerman’s background.

            However, I missed your overall point. You don’t believe these character references?

          • 1Brett1

            I don’t know if you saw the timeline of the police call Zimmerman placed (one of my comments last week), but Zimmerman’s version of the story doesn’t quite jibe with the timeline of the events during the call…anyway, I am replying because of one thing you mentioned: about Zimmerman saying he was looking for a street name and address and not pursuing Martin. 

            Zimmerman got out of his car just after he said, “sh*t, he’s [Martin] running.” It took him only 15 seconds to reach his destination of supposedly getting a street name and address (although, the address of the house just next to his car was quite visible). At that point, the dispatcher told him not to pursue Martin (after asking Zimmerman if he was doing so, to which he said, yes, he was). It was over a couple of minutes between the time the dispatcher told him not to follow Martin and when Zimmerman was standing at the “T” part of the sidewalk, only about 20 feet away from his destination to get a street address. So, 15 seconds for him to go the entire distance, and well over 2 minutes to go only an eighth of the distance back after being told not to follow. This sounds like a) he could have gotten an address right at his car b) he took off after Martin when he started running away and c) after the dispatcher told him to stop following, he lingered back, looking for Martin.

            Another thing to note is that the dispatcher asked him several times what his home address was, and he was also asked several times his location’s address. Zimmerman evaded those questions every time, and never did give any address. He supposedly left his car to get a location address, yet at the very end of the call, the dispatcher asked him where he was standing and he replied that the police should just call him back when they arrive. 

            I am surprised that the prosecution didn’t zero in on this during the trial and hammer it home; in fact, they didn’t aggressively focus on these inconsistencies.

          • brettearle

            If your analysis is accurate, it may very well be that the Prosecution simply didn’t possess the necessary perspicacity and discernment, to actually see Zimmerman’s inconsistencies.

            I’m sure this isn’t the first time that you’ve come up with something that should have been included in a story.

            Sometimes, it is something that we don’t know WAS actually included (perhaps in a different way) or otherwise COULDN’T be included.

            And, of course, sometimes it’s oversight/incompetence.

            Although it’s somewhat of a challenge to fully visualize your points, relative to time lost or gained, I believe that  I understand what you are conveying.

            I simply lack the time to study the timeline as carefully, as you may have.

            It does seem that Zimmerman may not necessarily be explaining his actions, credibly–whereby his location and time cannot be fully accounted for, given the proximity of a street address, relative to his location…thereby implying that he was in pursuit.

            If I have the time, I will continue to look at your comments, of 2 days ago.

            What did you think of my point(s) about Martin’s potential stand your ground/self-defense?

            Where does excessive fear come into play?

            If the individual pursued suspects the pursuer has a gun or he thinks he sees the pursuer’s gun (but doesn’t and is simply overreacting), where does SYG and Self D come into official consideration?

            And if Martin is exercising SYG, when do you stop injuring the pursuer–so that you know he’s no longer a threat to you?

            Does SYG specifically say you can go beyond the point, where if you’re physically attacked, you don’t repel enough to simply believe that you can get away, safely?

            In a rare case, a guy  like `Morita’ could Black Belt his opponent down and stun him, so that he that could comply with the Law and be off, without further damage.

            I’m using a seldom occurrence, to issue a point.

            Thanks.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I know you are busy but I have posted a video of George Zimmerman reenacting the events that’s synced with the 911 calls and included zimmermans written statement from that night. if you are open minded give it a watch

        • notafeminista

          Congratulations on your outrage.  Did you watch the trial?

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          no you do not have a right to defend yourself from a person following you with your fists

      • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

        SYG was not used by the defense but the jury was instructed on the law and considered it: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/07/16/3502481/juror-we-talked-stand-your-ground.html

    • brettearle

      Had Martin been Zimmerman and if Martin was facing the same threat that Zimmerman claimed he, himself, was facing, then Martin would have been exonerated, TOO….

      BUT ONLY assuming that there were credible eyewitnesses to back up Martin’s claim, in my hypothetical scenario.

      Otherwise, despite the same Forensics, it is likely that, yes, Martin would likely not be believed, anywhere near as easily.

      But to suggest that Martin would be 100% found guilty, under the same circumstances, I don’t believe is completely realistic.

    • MrBigStuff

      I’m nervous around blacks and try to avoid them unless they are in a suit or polo shirt with khakis. Call me racist, bigoted or evil,  but it’s my gut reaction every single time. I wouldn’t have followed or shot him, but I would have double-checked if I had seen Travyon Martin walking through my neighborhood. 

  • Telecaster52

    Again I ask, Does any one recall President Clinton’s remarks regarding the OJ Simpson verdict?????

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      now that we have a half Kenyan / half Kansan president does that mean Clinton is not our first black president anymore?

  • hennorama

    Hello, my name is [hennorama] and I’m a racist.

    I’ve been in recovery for many, many years, however.

    I grew up in an area that was ethnically and racially homogenous, and rarely left that area when I was a young child. I often heard my parents and other adults make references to “colored people.”

    One day, when traveling outside my “home base,” my mother made a remark to me about “the colored man over there.” I looked around and saw only a man with brown skin, and was confused. “What colored man?” I asked, and my mom referred to the brown-skinned man I had seen. I remained puzzled.

    My confusion was because I thought “colored” people would be rainbow-hued, like the Crayola crayons I loved so much. I was quite disappointed to discover my misconception.

    “And then, finally, I think it’s going to be important for all of us to do some soul-searching. There has been talk about should we convene a conversation on race. I haven’t seen that be particularly productive when politicians try to organize conversations. They end up being stilted and politicized, and folks are locked into the positions they already have. On the other hand, in families and churches and workplaces, there’s the possibility that people are a little bit more honest, and at least you ask yourself your own questions about, am I wringing as much bias out of myself as I can? Am I judging people as much as I can, based on not the color of their skin, but the content of their character? That would, I think, be an appropriate exercise in the wake of this tragedy.” – President Barack Obama

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Sounds like you need a beer summit to recover from the psychological damage incurred during your youth.  Let us know how it works for you.

      • StilllHere

        I’d suggest a craft IPA, they’ve got great color.

        • hennorama

          StilllHere – thank you for your bravely indirect and thoughtful suggestion.

      • hennorama

        WftC – thank you for your thoughtful response.

        • brettearle

          Kudos for your Teachable Moment, just above.

    • brettearle

      Henn–

      Just to underscore what we are all too painfully aware of….

      One of the ultimate scapegoats for mankind is to see The Other as either strange, a threat, inferior, weird, the ubiquitous Bogeyman or otherwise a nemesis.

      Whether it’s different religion, creed, race, cultural origin, class background, career, family configuration, weight, landed immigrant, baldness, body language, new student in the playground, gait, voice, political opinions, etc.

      Of course, color is the easiest, as in Crayola.

      ["Did you hear the one about the guy who rejected a fellow "On-Point" threader because he didn't think the "English Patient" was up to snuff--simply because he didn't buy into the Fiennes-Thomas dalliance?"]

      • hennorama

        brettearle – regarding your droll ["Did you hear the one about …];

        As I wrote in an earlier post, “there’s discrimination as in “being choosy” and then there’s discrimination as in “unthinking categorical prejudice.”

        I was simply being thoughtfully choosy as to ‘The English Patient’. So there. :-)

        Thank you for your otherwise very (as usual) thoughtful response.

        • brettearle

          Any time I can tease a brilliant guy like you (who doesn’t see me as The Other), that much better off I am…

          ….and, Ta Dah!, you are, as well…..

          [By the way, do you know about the association, known as Ta Dah!--The Association for Delightfully Alive Humans?]

          PS

          What did you think of the marching band,  in background-contrast to their silhouetted, clandestine embrace?

          [To exercise a biased pre-emptive,

          You're probably from that unseemly school, who saw it as manipulative and contrived....

          For Shame.]

          • hennorama

            brettearle – TYFYR and your very kind words.

            In future, please refrain from referring to [hennorama] as “a brilliant” anything until and unless I go supernova. Please note also that your description is clearly inferior, as the-poster-whose-moniker-shall-never-be-typed recently adoringly began a reply to [hennorama] with “God, you.”

            As to TA DAH – they are in merger talks with the Pasadena Doo Dah Parade people. Rumor is that they want to rebrand the Pasadena public procession as The Ta Dah Doo Dah To-Do.

            The Doo Dah people apparently prefer Doo Dah Ta Dah Yippity Dippity Inka Dinka Doo Palooka Lalooka Good Ship Lollipop La Dee Dah LollaPalooza, so “talks continue.”

            Now as to the other marching band you discussed – I’ve now officially thought about ‘TEP’ more in the last two weeks than over the last two decades. As I generally agree with Elaine’s exquisite eloquence when asked how she could not love it – “How about, it sucked?“ – ‘TEP’ shall no longer darken my brain, from this day hence.

            Thanks again for your response.

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard
  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    this just in. “George Zimmerman rescues man from overturned truck”

    • OnPointComments

      Yeah, but I bet the man in the truck was white.  That racist.

      • StilllHere

        maybe the truck was white also.

        • 1Brett1

          DISQUS

      • 1Brett1

        Or maybe Zimmerman got out to “help” because he saw a young black male wearing a hoodie?

    • hypocracy1

       He really is Batman~

    • StilllHere

      Apparently it was a whole family.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       OMG — this is a real story.

      Here is the ABC link.

      http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-emerged-hiding-truck-crash-rescue/storynew?id=19735432

      NBC probably has edited video showing Zimmerman causing the crash. :)

      • OnPointComments

        I got the NBC report:  “George Zimmerman, the white hispanic who walked scot-free after the brutal murder of an angelic African American teenager, has once again proved his racism by rescuing only white people from an overturned truck.  Zimmerman has never rescued black people from overturned trucks.  When asked about the victims, Zimmerman told police ‘they look white.’  Rev. Al Sharpton is organizing protests around the country because he believes there might be some money in this story for himself.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        why would it not be?

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          FB, no sleight intended.  Sometimes the truth is just too bizarre to believe.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            its stranger than fiction. I make jokes but I never just make things up

        • 1Brett1

          I guess ABC edited out the part about Zimmerman’s bodyguard assisting in the “rescue”?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Since Zimmerman is so ‘soft’ and a wimp he must have  pulled the children out of the flames and left the adults for the bodyguard.

          • 1Brett1

            Oh, so now there were FLAMES!!! 

            Wait, Worried, are you saying that Zimmerman is a badass who possess a lot of physical prowess, even in his current rotund state of being far less in shape than when he shot and killed Martin? …And here I thought you were one of the “good” neocons. I’m hurt, bewildered…I just…(sniff, sniff…)

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Hey Brett, do you have any empathy for Zimmerman’s parents who (according to the ABC story posted) have been unable to return home due to ongoing death threats?

            btw – the only reason I decided to reply to your post was my confusion about your bodyguard comment. I see now that it was a continuation of another conversation. That will teach me to ‘butt in’ ….

          • 1Brett1

            Sure, I have empathy for them; they are completely innocent of anything to do with that night. I even have some sympathy for Zimmerman himself. 

            But, you know what, I’ll bet any parent would rather endure a death threat than the death of their child.

            DO you have any empathy for Trayvon Martin’s parents?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Yes I have empathy for Martin’s parents.  The endured a terrible loss.

    • 1Brett1

      Well, then, as it turns out, he is just another “good guy with a gun”…It sure is a good thing he was acquitted or that uninjured family would have had to be rescued by the other person on the scene who helped them out of their vehicle. 

      I do give you credit, though, FB; your comment is the least inane among the neocon replies to it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        oh brett1. the other  person on the scene was reported to be the 24/7 bodyguard Zimmerman has had to hire because of all the people who have threatened to kill him. are you saying if Zimmerman was in prison for murder his bodyguard would have been there anyways?
         you seem so hard up to criticize and read into things which seems compounded by your disregard for facts. don’t worry a lot of people who are convinced Zimmerman is a racist murderer are in the same boat

        • 1Brett1

          Nope, Fb, I don’t find your comment compelling enough to have a serious discussion about; I was joking around. What is all of that nonsense you read into my reply about racism and whatnot just after accusing me of reading into things? …Okay, then.

           

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            but apparently its compelling enough to double reply to?

          • 1Brett1

            Oh, now, you’re still sore cuz I caught you in a made up fib.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I know you don’t like thinking things through. fox news channel reported it. take it for what its worth. breaking news often “evolves” during the day.
             before we dismiss something fox reports out of hand lets try thinking first, it would make a lot of sense for George Zimmerman to have a body guard since there are riots in the streets calling for his head and he receives constant death threats. if you were Zimmerman would you not have a body guard? would you tell the media about him?  if you had a bodyguard and you went to pull people from a car wreck do you think your bodyguard would sit there twiddling his thumbs? its a pretty wild story already that seems like the most easy to believe part of the story. you are assured in your baseless assumptions, you have a knack for that. since you have gone ahead and called me a liar based on nothing but your claim you could not find whatever on the internet why not prove it for real? what was the actual identity of the other person if it was not the bodyguard?(make sure you cite an exact source) I will eagerly await your ad hominem deflection

          • 1Brett1

            Still nothing to back up your story? I see…

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            says the man who was offered the chance to easily use his interweb to prove I was a liar and failed. you play a tired game that people on many forums play. we all know what they call a guy like you. this sort of baloney is not why I come to what is generally a more enlightened forum. for now  I will let you answer your own posts and laugh at you.

          • 1Brett1

            You can’tprove somethingdoesn’texist. Okay, here’s a link to nothing:

            LOL

          • 1Brett1

            Breaking news? It happened last week, LOL. The other person was not identified. Does that automatically make him Zimmerman’s bodyguard? You are either lying or you are taking something someone you know said, which is still lying because you didn’t hear it on Fox News as a breaking story today (your “this just in”). Admit it, saying you heard on Fox News today the other person at the scene of the accident was Zimmerman’s bodyguard is a lie. 

          • StilllHere

            he’s got nothing better to do

          • 1Brett1

            “Nothing better to do. Rauw!” 

        • 1Brett1

          By the way, FB, do you have a way to substantiate your claim that the other person was his body guard? You do tend to say things [made up] off the cuff just to make some kind of irrelevant argument.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I heard it on the Foxnews. I’m surprised you did not just assume that. I never make things up. that’s more your thing. stop projecting

          • 1Brett1

            Nope, you make things up all the time, just like this thing here. I just finished reading FoxNews’ story on this and, surprise, surprise, no mention of Zimmerman’s “body guard”. In fact I just finished looking for any mention of a Zimmerman “body guard” and zip, nada, zilch. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            i said i saw it on the foxnews not read it on foxnews online. get a life and stop projecting your issues on me

          • 1Brett1

            Yeah, no, yeah, you keep not being able to back up what you’re saying. Notice that, at all, there, Fido Buddy?

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            seems like that’s the issue you have been having. you are projecting

          • 1Brett1

            Still nothingto backupyourstory?I thought not!

          • StilllHere

            Exactly, then he says it was just satire. 

          • 1Brett1

            “You tell ‘em…[parrot whistle] rauw!”

          • 1Brett1

            I heard on FoxNews that Zimmerman was chasing a black male wearing a hoodie so he could have his bodyguard beat him up, and he came across the accident. 

          • StilllHere

            he also can tell you what you’re thinking

          • 1Brett1

            I’d tell you what you’re thinking, but it is obvious that thinking is not in your repertoire.

      • StilllHere

        More satire?  You’ve missed your true calling.

        • 1Brett1

          Polly want a cracker? 

          • StilllHere

            Thanks for the racial insult.

          • 1Brett1

            That you’re a parrot? I’ve called you a parrot before on a few occasions. How is that a racial insult? Do you always turn insults into puns so you can scream racism? You knucklehead neocons…

          • jefe68

            THis guy is kind of the Golum of trolls.

    • hennorama

      Good on ya, Mr. Zimmerman.

      This not just in – “Trayvon Martin is dead and had no opportunity to rescue a man from an overturned truck.”

    • John Cedar

      Not only is he a a cop wannabe
      he is a first responder wannabe?
      Now I KNOW he is guilty.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        ? I detect sarcasm but I want to be sure

        • 1Brett1

          Still scratching your head over sarcasm…hoohoohoo, that is too funny.

  • Mr_Robert01

    Hello,

     

    I am deeply saddened by the fact that a young man is dead
    and that this incident happened at all.  However,
    I continue to hear things on this program right now, and in the post below that
    are factually wrong.  The biggest is the
    idea that this is a Black and White issue regarding race.  When this story was originally reported the narrative
    was a white man has shot and killed a young black male and no charges have been
    filed against the white male.   Later,
    the news had to disclose that this was factually wrong but did so in a less
    revealing manner.  It turns out that
    George Zimmerman is a Hispanic (not
    white) who is also a card carrying Democrat that voted for Obama for president.
     But as I’ve stated this was less
    reported. 

     

    Now, as I watch all of these people go out and protest all I
    can think is that they are acting without any of the facts at all.  They are hearing what they want to hear and
    acting the way they want to act regardless of any truth.  I have to also say it all greatly disturbs me
    that no one on any of these shows is condemning the acts of Trevon Martin.  If I am being followed by someone and I live
    in that neighborhood I am going to stop turn around and talk to that
    person.  What Trevon Martin did was hide
    and then jump out and attack Mr. Zimmerman.  
    What seems to be communicated here is that these actions are okay. 

     

    As I talk to friends who are white they tell that they feel that
    the African American community condones these type of actions by going out and
    protesting.   What scares me is that fact
    that so many of our young black youth continue to aspire to Thug Life and that it is becoming and intimate part of black
    culture here in the United States, yet the black community will not come out
    and condemn it.

  • 1Brett1

    Relationships among people of different races, in this 21st century here in the US, as a topic of conversation is still very difficult. It seems more difficult a conversation even than in past decades. It seems more difficult now that we have an African-American president. If someone had told me when I was a teenager back in the early ’70s that this would be as difficult a conversation as it is now, I wouldn’t have believed them.

    It’s not as difficult for people under thirty-five, generally, to have these conversations about race, an interesting phenomenon in all of this. I can’t say why that is exactly; perhaps younger people haven’t lived through so many changes in race relations? I don’t know. Young people do seem more accepting of diversity. A person’s ethnicity doesn’t pose as much of a threat to them. Young people perhaps feel less threatened letting go of some mindset because they never had a particular mindset to begin with?

    There seems more divisiveness in race relationships in recent years. The immigration issues notwithstanding, there is a divided demarcation line between conservative and liberal people about race issues, especially issues regarding the relationships between white and black people. 

    Conservatives often say that this is because of President Obama’s divisive language and his commentary on race itself, that this plays a huge role in causing both races to get ginned up about race. Frankly, I think that at best (even if one puts any argument aside about conservatives being upset over his presidency to begin with due to some form of racism), the evidence just isn’t there. The President’s comments the other day, for example, about Trayvon Martin and about racial profiling weren’t inflammatory. Does even some introspective thoughts on race on his part prompt people to become galvanized in hatred for “the other” in and of itself? I don’t think so.   

    There seems to be a kind of consensus among conservatives on this forum about race relations, and about the Zimmerman trial, and I feel it mirrors the larger population:

    1) Profiling African-American males and targeting them as suspicious is acceptable. If you see a young black male and become afraid/suspicious, that’s not racism, that is just reasonable wariness.

     

    2)  Black males feel a sense of entitlement, and that has been inflated to make them feel even more entitled since Obama has become president, because he panders to them, gives them stuff he doesn’t give white people, doesn’t speak up about how lazy they are or about how they need to get over any individual racism they might be subjected to; life is tough, and the tough don’t let setbacks like racism keep them from succeeding.

    3) All Institutional forms of racism are no longer existent, therefore any legislation protecting black people from discrimination should be rescinded or otherwise removed from the books. 

    4) Democrat[ic] policies have caused black males to feel inferior, have held down black males from getting ahead and competing in our society, and those very policies have contributed greatly to modern racism, even driving it most of the time.  

    5) To be careful in speaking about race is just politically-correct prissiness, and it is not necessary; if black people or more liberal-minded people find what appears to be racially insensitive language offensive, get over it.

    These are just a few common denominators I’ve seen; there are probably many more. If any conservatives read this, are these five points not something you subscribe to?

    As far as the Zimmerman trial itself, there are also some commonalities of opinion among conservatives on this forum:

    1) That the trial proved Trayvon Martin initiated the altercation.

    2) That Zimmerman’s story was also proven in the trial as fact.

    3) That the trial proved Zimmerman was protecting himself and would have either died or suffered grave injuries had he not shot Martin.

    4) That ZImmerman was completely justified in profiling Martin.

    5) That there was nothing wrong with Zimmerman doing more than reporting Martin to police and leaving the scene. 

    6) That subsequent protests over the trial’s verdict and over the ‘stand-your-ground’ laws are stupid, and people who participate are unreasonable for protesting.

    • 1Brett1

      There have been no denials of these conservative opinions, so one can conclude they are true.

      • pete18

        Tough being ignored, isn’t it?

        • StilllHere

          Look how he’s begging for some other poster to validate him.  Pitiful.

          • 1Brett1

            “Beggin’, rauw!”

        • 1Brett1

          Interesting…what you neocons do and don’t respond to. You (and most of the neocons on here) will lash out at a cheeky comment by a “lib” but “ignore” a serious one. Do you or don’t you agree with those views? 

          Or, you’ll look for a weak statement in a lib’s comment to blast him with (which is easy). It’s an easy yes or no answer to answer the comment above, if you don’t want to put any effort into it. Do you agree with those views I say conservatives share? Are you afraid?

          Your reply is presumptuous. Frankly, considering how you shoot from the hip, I’d rather not have a conversation with you. Pandering to the low-hanging fruit (Still Here, for example) is easy. You go for the easy route, don’t you?  Rather than ranting or raving about libs and whatnot, here’s an opportunity to have a genuine conversation. You know what? Most of you guys are not capable. Are you just like all the other lowest common denominator neocons, pete?

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      there are far too many false notions there to disabuse

      • 1Brett1

        Good, so you don’t agree with those views.

  • Geheran1958

    Hennorama…..Don’t entirely agree with your definitions. In my book, to “discriminate” is to recognize a distinction; to be “prejudiced” is to have a preconceived opinion based neither on reason nor experience. Assuming that the aforementioned definitions are accurate, your hypothesis does not hold water.

  • Coastghost

    So far, we have no acknowledgment from President Obama that views on race relations in the US to this day are governed largely by perceptions based not
    upon convenient and inconvenient facts but upon myth and myths: not simply or
    primarily on the basis of any lurid tale sold by Hollywood but more chiefly,
    more centrally, more directly myth and myths purveyed by our mass media, especially
    and including our putative news media, whose reports (whether those embodying
    journalistic advocacy or those resorting to narrative devices meant to humanize
    a story by eliciting sympathetic affectivity or empathy) are extensions of and
    supports for the very mythology that motivates practically all thinking on the
    subject among the American public, on every side of the conversation, to very
    high degrees.

    The subject of race relations is rarely unpacked
    sufficiently in American discourse because the constituent myths are never
    distilled and addressed as such: this phenomenon itself suggests that myth actually helps
    direct or lead the discourse.

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      It sounds like you have not personally experienced racial discrimination, in which case you have either indomitable optimism, incredible personal magnetism, rank somewhere on the Asperger’s spectrum, are white, or perhaps a combination thereof.

      It’s not a myth when you’ve experienced it.

      • Coastghost

        What do you think “myth” is? Myth is a proffered explanation given to experience.

        • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

          Their is no myth in racial slurs, dirty looks, articulated attitudes, white supremacist groups, the KKK, segregation, the disproportionate incarceration rates based on race or the conversations that you don’t hear on TV or read about in the needs…

          Unless you live in some insular, revisionist alternate reality.

  • misty42

    So, I just wanted to take a moment to broaden this conversation. I know racial bias is an important conversation, and I’d like to know why can’t we talk about bias in general? Women are being discriminated against, the GLBT community is being discriminated against, the nonreligious community is being discriminated against. It seems to me, that rather than working at separate ends of the same rope, why not work TOGETHER to fight inequality and end discrimination period? Wouldn’t that make for a much more powerful movement? Why so separate? (Sighs.)

    And to the caller who identified her growing up in a gated community as a “white privilege” I must disagree– that is class privilege. While I do not deny white privilege, there are plenty of poor white people who struggle and must also fly and can’t simply “walk” to Harvard, so to speak.

    • notafeminista

      Good question.  Do let us talk about bias of all types.

      • StilllHere

        I’m biased not to talk about bias.

    • Zack Smith

      Ron Paul said it best – “racism is simply an ugly form of collectivism” – so whether it’s prejudice against race, class or whatever, the problem is when people are not treated as individuals, but as members of a group.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Ben Stein on Obama, the Zimmerman trial, the media and the race baiters.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/07/22/feeling-the-heat

    “The media have been telling a fairy tale designed to whip up race hatred.”

    “The least of the problems that black people face in the USA
    right now is attacks by heavy set volunteer watchmen in gated
    communities. That’s not even on the radar screen as a serious problem. For Mr. Obama and other “black leaders” and media people to pretend that it is is simply nonsense.”

    “But among “black leaders,” who really can no longer make
    credible claims about racism now that we have a black President,
    who really have no answers to the crisis in the black community, a
    chance to distract people from their own powerlessness is a golden
    opportunity.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    I wonder why they have never played this video on the news?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kREzNtptMxA

    • hypocracy1

       Seriously?  You wonder why?

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        why do you think it is?

    • 1Brett1

      Man, he must’ve been a good inch or two taller than the 7-11 guy! Ooh! 

      I can see why, after viewing this video, why he would be so scary and need to be shot and killed! 

      Thanks, FB; you always bring a certain focus, clarity and importance to issues that no one else will. I applaud your bravery to stand up and say what others are afraid to say!

      • jefe68

        The level of bottom feeding this guy engages in something else. 

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          i know jefe even you look reasonable compared to brett

          • jefe68

            There is no reasoning with fools and idiots.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            fine I won’t try and reason with you

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        once again you fail to answer the question and deflect with ad hominem attacks. do you do any other tricks?

        • 1Brett1

          You got me! I am deflecting…let’s see, now, what was the question? Oh, that thing you were wondering about…I thought that was rhetorical? 

          • 1Brett1

            You remain silent, FB! You have spoken volumes by dodging my question! Isn’t that question rhetorical? Look up rhetorical and answer, please.

            By failing to answer you have proven unequivocally that you are one of the race-baiting class! You clearly have no defense for plastering this forum with that video! There is simply no other answer other than you are trying to demonize Martin and paint him as a scary, dangerous thug. For shame! Even Gregg wouldn’t have done that…well, actually, he would have.  

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            keep talking to yourself. its funny. I like it better than when you talk to me

          • 1Brett1

            You are still dodging. Or maybe you just don’t know the word “rhetorical”?

        • 1Brett1

          What was the point to your posting the video? It seems like the only reason is to paint a picture that Trayvon Martin was scary/intimidating.

      • sharlyne1

        Ignore FB. He has nothing better to do than troll OP comment sections and talk nonsense. Does it all the time.

  • pete18

     Mr Hypocrite and Change strikes again:

    “Barack Obama actually co-sponsored a bill that strengthened Illinois’ 1961 “stand your ground” law.
    The Obama-sponsored bill (SB 2386)
    enlarged the state’s 1961 law by shielding the person who was attacked
    from being sued in civil court by perpetrators or their estates when a
    “stand your ground” defense is used in protecting his or her person,
    dwelling or other property.

    The bill unanimously passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois Senate on March 25, 2004 with only one comment,
    and passed the Democrat-controlled Illinois House in May 2004 with only
    two votes in opposition. Then-Governor Rod Blagojevich (D) signed it
    into law.”

    http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2013/07/obama-strongly-supported-stand-your-ground-when-in-illinois-senate.html

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      IL:

      A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to
      prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with her real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of
      another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect.

      The above relates to the Castle Doctrine (i.e. guarding one’s home). I remember when the right-wing claim was full of “I can’t even protect my family in my own home”. Nice to know things have changed.

      FL:

      A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or
      herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

      The above talks about “any other place”…should you and your attacker be in random place X.

      Pretty evidently different, actually.

      • pete18

        Yeah, I read the rebuttal story in Slate too. Different wording, some difference in how the laws act, but not enough to give Obama any cover on this.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Yeah, except for the big difference between “castle” and “ground”.

          What with what everyone boasts as “Stand Your Ground” dating back to FL in 2005, and this Illinois tweak having been made to 1961 law in 2004.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Florida had the first Stand Your Ground law.

           http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/18/19522874-florida-had-first-stand-your-ground-law-other-states-followed-in-rapid-succession?lite

  • 1Brett1

    If Gregg were here, he could proudly extol the virtues of all the conservative participants and their diverse and insightful commentary today.

    I heard he was banned, but I don’t know; it’s just what I heard. I hope that is just some rumor and not true…who knows.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Banned?  Say it ain’t so.

      Is this a topic on which HD would normally opine?  Just askin.

      • pete18

        I think Brett’s just trying to goad him back with rumor. HD sounded like he was growing tired of the board during his last few posts.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Maybe he’s sick of the constant barrage of personal attacks.

          • jefe68

            Poor conservative white guy. 
            The big bad liberals said some bad things about him and he left in a huff. I heard it was a blue huff. 

          • pete18

             It is amazing how often you use race as an attack.

          • jefe68

            What’s the matter, don’t like being called a conservative white guy? Should I use entitled conservative, or how about regressive right winger.
            It’s amazing how often the regressive right wingers try to play use race in reverse. It’s an interesting ploy, one that speaks volumes to the reality of their level of mendacity when dealing with race.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIZiQDCK_Ng

          • pete18

            No, it’s just interesting that you use so much name calling, assumptions of situation and class (“entitled” etc.) and racial categorization instead of making arguments. You’re like the lawyer pounding on the desk when he’s got nothing else.

      • 1Brett1

        Opine about race? Naw, he’d never do that.

    • StilllHere

      You really have a serious issue.

      • 1Brett1

        “rauw!”

  • Sy2502

    In my little fairy tale world, the President is supposed to be the example and role model in supporting this country’s Democratic system. Unfortunately Obama is not doing this. He publicly took sides in the Martin issue long before the trial and sentencing. Personally, I think Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter, but you know what, I support the judicial system, and not only when I agree with the sentence. Our President doesn’t. He wasn’t at the trial, but he’s telling the dutiful citizens of the jury that they did it wrong. It was established during the trial that race didn’t come into the picture but no, our President insists in stirring up the race wars. And frankly this is not the first time he’s shown to despise the democratic process. One of the things that made our country great is the system of “checks and balances”. It is set up so that even if a party wins the elections, the other party can conduct opposition, preventing a dictatorship of the majority. But Obama doesn’t like that, so every time the GOP does precisely what its job is, the opposition, he goes on TV whining and stomping his feet about them meanie poo-poo heads that don’t let him do what he wants. Checks and balances, Mr President, look it up. I feel like I have greater respect for our system and Democracy than our President does. And I wasn’t even born here. Is it surprising that our country is so horribly divided, that we can’t discuss anything without somebody feeling authorized to insult those who disagree, calling them racists for no good reason? Frankly no it isn’t. The leader of the country, who should give the good example, is leading the division.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      he was charged and acquitted of manslaughter.

      • Sy2502

        I am aware of that. What was your point?

  • Zack Smith

    Tom, good job presenting the issue without revealing your bias. You are truly a gifted journalist and a national treasure. /S

  • casey1986

    A black woman with NO criminal record was sentenced to 20 YEARS in prison in Florida for firing warning shots at her abusive husband.   No one was injured.    Zimmerman killed an unarmed youth who he pursued even after being told to remain in his vehicle. Zimmerman was acquitted.  Both cases had the same prosecutor.   Both cases are miscarriages of justice.

    • William

       The black woman told her husband who was trying to leave the home “I got something for you” (heard on the 911 tape), left the house, went into the garage, got her gun out of her car, came back and took a shot at her husband just barely missing her son. The court correctly said she did not qualify for stand your ground and received the appropriate sentence (20 years) since she used a gun.

      • 1Brett1

        Well, maybe some kind of sentence, but 20 years? Also, can you provide proof that “I got something for you” on the 911 tape?

    • OnPointComments

      The black woman who is sitting in jail for 20 years is Marissa Alexander.  After Ms. Alexander was safely out of her husband’s home, where she had not lived for 2 months, she retrieved a handgun from her car’s glove box and returned to his house.  She pointed the gun at her husband and his two children, and when he put his hands in the air in surrender, she fired the gun at him and his children, narrowly missing her husband’s head.  Her husband and his children fled the house and called 911; Ms. Alexander stayed in the house and never called 911.  Ms. Alexander rejected a 3 year plea deal.  Ms. Alexander was convicted and received a 20-year sentence, on three counts of aggravated assault, after 12 minutes of deliberation by the jury.

      The jury that convicted Marissa Alexander was comprised of three women and three men, one of them an African-American woman.

      • casey1986

        Is the husband still alive to tell his side of the story?    I rest my case.

        • OnPointComments

          I’m glad I don’t live in CaseyLand where if you attempt to murder someone, you get to go free if your aim is bad.

          • jefe68

            No in your world you can shot an unarmed person and go free.

          • casey1986

            Precisely.  In his/her world you are sentenced to 20 years for NOT killing someone, and you are acquitted for killing an unarmed person.  

        • StilllHere

          You are not a lawyer and appear to have little knowledge of the law.

          • casey1986

            StillHere, Esq?

      • 1Brett1

        Can you prove that it went down the way you say it did? 

        I heard she went to her car to escape but didn’t have her car keys. The children weren’t standing “with” the husband. The shots were fired into the wall and not directly at him. Did he put his hands in the air? Did he and the children flee the house?  Rejecting a plea bargain proves some form of guilt? Can you provide any substantiated account of the events that coincide with your version of it?

        What do the gender and race makeup of the jury have to do with casey1986′s comment?

    • StilllHere

      You don’t appear to know much about either case.

  • casey1986

    Note that Zimmerman was arrested only AFTER people protested.   He walked away from that crime scene as though he had just shot a frog….I say frog because had he shot a dog, he would have been arrested for animal cruelty

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      actually even in MA you are allowed to shoot a dog that is threatening you in public, it does not even have to be on top of you putting your life in danger.
       he did not walk away. after the police he had called arrived he was taken to the station and questioned for six hours.
      you could be arrested for killing a frog if its a non game species or if it is out of season or you have no permit.
      it is important to note that Zimmerman was only arrested after people protested because that shows they bowed to political pressure and not the facts of the case when they did arrest him

      • casey1986

        And who was threatening whom?  Who was armed and pursuing an unarmed person even after being told by the police dispatcher to desist?

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          I feel like you have not seen this:
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWZPjCuA5k

        • StilllHere

          You should know the answers, but it appears you haven’t been paying attention.

          • jefe68

            Troll.

          • casey1986

            Yes, I know the answer….That was a rhetorical question which perhaps went over your head.

  • NickPina

    I do not understand why “the press” politicians, the public
    at-large insists on conflating the so-called Stand Your Ground Law with the Zimmerman
    Criminal Case. Stand Your Ground was not invoked by Zimmerman and was not any part
    of the “legal case”. Now, the attitude that the Stand Your Ground fosters may
    have been part of Zimmerman’s frame of mind and embolden him to act as he did –
    but the Stand Your Ground Law was not a technical part of this case.  Please stop so conflating the Stand Your
    Ground Law with the defense that was actually invoked.     

  • NickPina

    I do not understand why “the press” politicians, the public
    at-large insists on conflating the so-called Stand Your Ground Law with the Zimmerman
    Criminal Case. Stand Your Ground was not invoked by Zimmerman and was not any part
    of the “legal case”. Now, the attitude that the Stand Your Ground fosters may
    have been part of Zimmerman’s frame of mind and embolden him to act as he did –
    but the Stand Your Ground Law was not a technical part of this case.  Please stop so conflating the Stand Your
    Ground Law with the defense that was actually invoked.     

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      this is fairly compelling. people should watch it who have convinced themselves this guy is a murdering racist
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWZPjCuA5k

    • nj_v2

      Typical of the raft of ignorance displayed about this.

      Jury instructions were explicitly based/derived on current SYG law. The defense never invoked it, but it infused the case, as GZ was judged according to current law, as instructed by the judge.

  • Telecaster52

    http://www.cnn.com/US/OJ/verdict/political/index.html
    An article about President Clinton’s reaction to the OJ Simpson verdict….

  • Bill Cook

    Why do we insist that race played a role in this case? A child was unjustifiably shot. In a more enlightened state GZ would have been punished because of what he did, not because of who he did it to. There is no evidence that race played any role in GZ’s actions, or those of the police or prosecutors.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      actually self defense is justifiable homicide. in MA he would have been in the clear if the circumstances were the same. every state allows self defense. in many ways its a fundamental right of all beings to defend themselves. I agree with the rest of what you said though

      • jefe68

        You don’t know that. In MA Zimmerman might not have been allowed to get a gun permit due to his criminal record. So if he was unarmed, I doubt he would have confronted Treyvon Martin, but you never know.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          there is that. depends what town he lives in. how disgusting that ones ability to exercise a basic right can be determined by a local unelected bureaucrat with almost no oversight or recourse. the police chiefs here are often racist in their decisions they probably would not give him one because he was a Hispanic.  however if he lived in a good town he could have got his permit in theory although his gun is not legal for sale here he could get a very similar one. besides all that the laws would have allowed Zimmerman to defend himself in the situation he was in.  have you watched the unedited reenactment with synced 911 calls I posted? its pretty long (20 minutes) but perhaps watching it would give us a better frame of reference to discuss this event.

  • John Cedar

    Why do people like you keep lying and misquoting the words of the dispatcher and thus changing their meaning?
    “we don’t need you to do that”.

    Is this lying repeated on purpose?
    Or because your bias allows you to think it means something other than what it means?

    • StilllHere

      Because it fits their agenda.

  • Renee_Zen

    My comments from a service I led at the Unitarian Universalist Fellowship in Gainesville, Florida.

    A message for Governor Scott from my comments this morning.

    In response to demands from the Defenders of the Dream, Governor Rick Scott declared Sunday, June 21, a day of prayer.

    I have a message for the governor—
    Sir. Governor Scott. We’ve got prayer covered.
    Governor Scott, every day is a national day of prayer for mothers,
    grandmothers, fathers, and grandfathers, aunts and uncles as they watch
    the young men of color they love walk out the door. We’ve got prayer covered. There are prayers whenever a young man looks back over his shoulder. We’ve got prayer covered.
    Today all over this nation there will be prayer and song and words of
    inspiration, and Governor Scott, there will even be prayers for you—but
    today we are going to occupy this day of prayer We will pray, yes. But our prayer will be listening to one another Our prayer will be will be reaching out Our prayer will be standing up and speaking out And our prayer will not end until the dream is won.

  • Hinterlander

    Regarding the comments shared by the biracial caller from Iowa: I am African American and was raised in small rural Iowa town – at the time, a member of the only African American in the town. The caller’s Caucasian friends’ “Get over it,” response is a cover for their inability and lack of understanding and desire to confront the reality of the history and legacy of racism in the United States and their conscious or unconscious participation as beneficiaries of white privilege. In other words: the subject is too painful, too uncomfortable to discuss, so their response is to dismiss it as unimportant and insignificant. This country needs to create a cognition and new, appropriate, specific vocabulary to use to discuss this social construct called ‘race’ and the prejudiced judgement based on this destructive fiction.

  • Hinterlander

    In response to the comments shared by the biracial caller from Iowa: May I share that I am
    African American and was raised in small rural Iowa town – at the time, a
    member of the only African American family in the town. In my experience, the caller’s Caucasian
    friends’ “Get over it,” response was quite likely a cover for their inability, lack of understanding and desire to confront the harsh reality of the history
    and legacy of racism in the United States and their conscious or
    unconscious participation as beneficiaries of its resulting white privilege. In other
    words: the subject is too painful, too uncomfortable to discuss, so
    their response is to dismiss the subject as unimportant and insignificant. Perhaps we need to help this
    country create a cognition and new, appropriate, specific
    vocabulary to use to discuss the social construct called ‘race’ and the
    prejudiced judgement based on this destructive fiction.

  • Jes Albright

    I live about 20 minutes from Sanford where Trayvon lived, and it routinely gets below freezing during the winter months. Very cold! Not as bad as up north, but into the 20′s and even the teens (in Farenheit, that is). We are in central FLorida, not South FLorida.

  • MrBigStuff

    Lol i love how Tom is dancing around being direct or blunt, trying not to sound overtly prejudiced or racist. 

  • Luca

    Tom, how disappointing to hear the Trayvon-athon on your show.  There are legitimate problems, racial and other, that we Americans need to work on.  The Zimmerman case is not one of them.  The vultures using this tragedy for their own self-aggrandizing agendas (and their media enablers) are to be shunned, not encouraged.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      its bizarre

  • nj_v2

    Disqus post-placement fail

  • nj_v2

    Disqus post-placement fail

  • nj_v2

    Disqus post-placement fail

    • Steve__T

       You have to re-fresh your browser then post.

      • 1Brett1

        You beat me to it, Steve. Thanks.

  • joe hodson

    There were a lot of statistics thrown around the show today.  I am not sure I heard anyone, including Tom quote the FBI statistics.  And before anyone flies off the handle.  The black % of the population is 12.5%-13% of the population.  Hispanics are lumped in with the white population for the FBI data tracking purposes… and with that here is the link..

     http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

  • hennorama

    Some have written about self-segregation, as in the book ‘The Big Sort’ by Bill Bishop.

    Some have written about fear, and “the other.” 

    For every human, every separate human is “the other.”

    This changes only with familiarity, beginning in utero.

    President Obama said “it’s going to be important for all of us to do some soul-searching” and how “in families and churches and workplaces, there’s the possibility that people are a little bit more honest, and at least you ask yourself your own questions about, am I wringing as much bias out of myself as I can?  Am I judging people as much as I can, based on not the color of their skin, but the content of their character?  That would, I think, be an appropriate exercise in the wake of this tragedy.:

    Please allow another perhaps smaller idea for our “a little bit more honest” forum:

    Everyone can step outside their routine and perhaps even their comfort zone when they feel safe.  My suggestion to everyone is to extend yourself a tiny bit while you’re in a safe environment.  Reach out to “the other.”   Greet and meet someone new, someone who doesn’t look like you, act like you, talk like you, dress like you.

    Turn “the other” into “the teeny bit more familiar.”    Turn “them” into “kinda like us.”

    Practice some Otherly Love.

    President Obama’s last words still echo in my mind – “…along this long, difficult journey, we’re becoming a more perfect union — not a perfect union, but a more perfect union.”

    Contribute to a more perfect union, one union at a time.

    • brettearle

      Henn–

      When I brought up “The Other” idea, a few hours, ago to you–one that you, of course, were already well aware of as a deplorable Human Impulse–I had long given up on the notion that Exclusivity and Elitism and Fear could be eradicated, or even, very much, improved.

      I salute you for your optimism.

      If you don’t know already–although I think you do–I come from the Universal School of Pessimism, where beauty and blessings are token gifts that are distributed, only according to when placating the Masses is necessary.

      I mean that’s a kind of vapid bit of poetic license.  But ‘Masses’, here, means anyone who is even slightly oppressed by the judgement or the practice of “The Other”–by someone else, or by a group (more than 1).

      [Will the Bastards continue to keep `Them' down?, as in "don't let the Bastards get you down."

      The answer is, Yes.]

      God didn’t make Man with enough intrinsic compassion.

      If He did, Mankind wouldn’t be suffering as it does.

      It isn’t simply the genocides.

      Remember the endless list of wars that “The Iliad” Actor listed for us, some weeks ago, on that “On-Point” program?

      The List was daunting.

      The Dali Llama can’t sprinkle his goodness, everywhere.

      It doesn’t work that way.

      But when wonderful things do happen–few and far between the Pillars of Insanity–at least we can take solace in the Feeling that it is our little, gracious spectacle that can, for a brief moment, dance gloriously against the dark corridors of Ugly Ignorance….

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Shelby Steele muses on  the decline of the civil rights establishment:

    “One wants to scream at all those outraged at the Zimmerman verdict:
    Where is your outrage over the collapse of the black family? Today’s
    civil-rights leaders swat at mosquitoes like Zimmerman when they have
    gorillas on their back. Seventy-three percent of all black children are
    born without fathers married to their mothers. And you want to bring the nation to a standstill over George Zimmerman?”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324448104578618681599902640.html?mod=trending_now_1

    • brettearle

      Because stable families, among the African-American population, can statistically suggest there’s a problem, does not negate the fact that Racism is still reasonably pervasive in our country. 

      Should those statistics somehow prove that Racism is not a problem or that Racism wouldn’t be problem if the statistics were not as troubling?

      I don’t think so.

      • pete18

         That’s not Steel’s point. He doesn’t deny racism still exists, but he is saying that the current crew of civil rights leaders are misusing their focus and energies on the Zimmerman/ Martin case, which relative to the broken black family and black on black crime is of little consequence in improving the safety, and productive futures of young black men. He is suggesting that it is easier for those leaders to gain a false moral authority (and glory) by fighting for a “poetic truth” rather than an actual one because the actual one is much harder and doesn’t bring clear and obvious rewards for those who fight for it.

        “In the Zimmerman/Martin case the civil-rights establishment is fighting
        for the poetic truth that white animus toward blacks is still such that a
        black teenager—Skittles and ice tea in hand—can be shot dead simply for
        walking home. But actually this establishment is fighting to maintain
        its authority to wield poetic truth—the authority to tell the larger
        society how it must think about blacks, how it must respond to them,
        what it owes them and, then, to brook no argument.”

        I will add that I also understand the inclination to resist making the harder truth a cause for fear that it will allow people to forget the past and current incarnations of white racism, or racisim in general. It is a tough balancing act because people should never forget that history and should continue to fight cultural and personal racism at every front. However, in our present moment what remains of racism in our society is not the biggest problem for the black community as it was in the 50s and 60s (IMO).

        • 1Brett1

          “…what remains of racism in our society is not the biggest problem for the black community as it was in the 50s and 60s…”

          Black leaders/organizers/activists are focused on a lot of issues in the African-American community. Don’t believe the most visible, lowest common denominator and surface media to think protests for justice in the Zimmerman case are all that get the attention from the African-American community without doing any investigation of activities on your own. If that is what you want to believe then your mind will not be changed, however.

          Even Fox covers the pedestrian Million Man March every year, and that is a low information voter (to borrow a conservative phrase) activity.

          Even Sharpton (whom I don’t like, by the way) focuses on many other issues throughout his activist day. I wish he’d go back to his work before he was on a daily TV show. 1) his work had more variety and value, and he could focus on more than one issue at a time 2) he wouldn’t be beholden to his bosses to seize on the 24/7 news story flavor of the month, ad nauseam, and 3) he’d be off TV (as much as his show is fodder for parody/satire). So, we’d benefit all around. 

            

          If racism is not as overtly institutional as it was in the ’50s and ’60s, it should just be ignored? The Voting Rights Act was recently gutted, so vigilance is still required. It remains to be seen if pursuing the Zimmerman verdict as an injustice is productive. I’ll concede points on that. I believe that police targeting and profiling is an important issue for the DoJ and activists to tackle, for example. But I also think any movement of activism within the African-American community can be a case of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Black men not living up to their responsibilities as fathers is but one problem, but that is an easy problem for white conservatives to cite as its solution doesn’t involve white establishment to look at itself at all (at least not according to the mindset of white conservative America).

          • pete18

            “If racism is not as overtly institutional as it was in the ’50s and ’60s, it should just be ignored?”

            Obviously not, as I already mentioned in my last post. However, the issue of the court’s ruling on the voting rights act certainly isn’t one of those instances. Seeing what they did as “gutting” the Voting Rights Act can be only be arrived at by the mind of a copywriter for a democratic party fundraising drive. It has no basis in reality. The court adjusted the law so that any special restrictions placed on states that had a history of racism related to voting must be based on current data, not data from 50 or 60 years ago. This is a perfectly reasonable and fair tweak, which doesn’t prevent the feds from preventing current and future racist voting activities but does allows states that have proven themselves to have changed to be able to gain control over their voting process, just like all the other states, rather than be condemned by behaviors a 1/2 century old into perpetuity.

            Police targeting and profiling is a real issue, but it’s a tricky one because some profiling is necessary both in pursuing suspects and preventing crime. At the same time it can be overdone causing great distress for innocent people just going about their business.

            Of course the charge from the left always is that if conservatives find more problems with the breakdown of the black family (not all of which they see stemming from their own making) than white racism it relieves them of any introspection. While this is true and that is always a danger with any criticism of others, it doesn’t in of itself make  conservatives wrong. And conservatives  are equally tough on whites, but it is whites of the liberal variety who they see as enablers to destructive policies and attitudes.

          • 1Brett1

            Pete, I genuinely appreciate your reply. While I disagree with most of what you say, my intention in interacting with people who have different views than mine is not always to debate them, argue with them or otherwise find fault with their views to attempt winning a game of one-upmanship. I recognize that we don’t all think alike. 

            I do appreciate your insight into another way of thinking, as much as I don’t agree with this or that point. There was something that jumped out at me, however, not something that I can say, “ooh, I can get him on that!” Or, “there’s a weak point I can argue against,” etc., but a point in part that I have some agreement with you on:

            “Police targeting and profiling is a real issue, but it’s a tricky one because some profiling is necessary both in pursuing suspects and preventing crime. At the same time it can be overdone causing great distress for innocent people just going about their business.”

            I agree with this, but I would like to make a distinction (which you may also agree with and see your views as also making the same distinction). 

            If a black man just robbed a bank and is 6′ 5″, wears horn-rimmed glasses, has a tattoo on his left shoulder and wears a wedding ring, etc., yes, profiling people who fit that description makes perfect sense. If recent crimes in a given area have been committed by young, black males, people who have been caught and convicted of their crimes, profiling young, black males because “that’s who have committed crimes in the past” is not a proper reason to profile people, to simply target them because of their race. 

          • pete18

             I don’t think it’s quite as simple as that. Profiling usually doesn’t just rely on one or two attributes but on a totality of cues within a certain context. A young black male wearing a certain type of clothing and carrying a certain attitude or demeanor in a context where there had been robberies by black youths very recently (regardless as to whether there had already been someone arrested or not) would at least rightfully draw a second look. A middle aged black man wearing a business suit or construction clothing probably would not. Where Zimmerman went wrong was not with the initial suspicion but with the out of his car confrontation without any other evidence of wrong doing by Martin.

            Profiling isn’t fair but it isn’t necessarily wrong if done properly. There have to be some standards and limits to what can happen when using those techniques.

            I appreciate your desire for clarity of different ideas in this exchange rather than looking for gotcha moments.

            What I’m curious about is what your rational is for seeing the recent Supreme Court case on the Voting Rights Bill as “gutting” it. I can’t see how one logically puts that together as an understandable position. So maybe you can explain why your side sees it that way.

    • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

      The jaundiced tone of the article renders it’s message highly suspect. Do you really expect a liberal to edified? No! I can hear you saying, a liberal is too set in his/her views. Well THIS liberal was mugged by two “African American” youths, so I’m not inclined to the bleeding heart variety of my species. I would like to hear some objective views on the prevalence of black on black, black on white, white on black, white on white crime based not on raw numbers, but taking into account the the percentage of population of blacks vs. whites. Personally I want to scream, “This is a bloody tragedy, of the ancient Greek variety”. No result of deliberation would have been just, that is the definition of a tragedy seeking (vainly) it’s catharsis. Now will you put your good brain to work finding this information? Someone, anyone? That would be a more fruitful way to dialogue about the subject.

  • Lusitan75

    If Martin had been armed (let’s imagine he was 18) and shot Zimmerman for following him, he would have been rightly arrested, charged, and probably convicted of murder.  Someone following you is not grounds to shoot them.

    Calling the “vicious cycle” theory (police crack down on blacks because they are prejudiced against blacks, therefore blacks have higher crime numbers in the statistics, therefore police crack down on blacks more) rampant speculation is giving it too much credit; it’s wishful thinking.  Blacks are obviously not genetically inclined toward more violent crime than whites, so the cause is certainly found within culture and not “race” per se.  But pretending that the problem disproportionate black violent crime is a mere creation of prejudiced policing is fantasy.  There is not some plague of violent white-crime to which everyone turns a blind eye and lets the white perpetrators get away without being caught while the police focus on policing blacks.

    Finally, the Chris Rock story is amusing, but a stupid idea if one tries to take it seriously.  Chris Rock lives in some rich town in New Jersey.  They key to living in that town is money — pure and simple.  The “white dentist” neighbor obviously has money, he has a high-paying job, maybe he was born into wealth, whatever.  But the idea that a white person need only become, say, a dentist or lawyer, and thereby they are admitted in the upper crusty elite where Chris Rock decides to buy his mansion is stupid.  Money talks; the rest walks.

    And Bryan Monroe’s self-contratulatory theory, that blacks must perform at a superior level to an equally accomplished non-black, really is a perfect example of the rot within the leadership of the race-baiting class.  Contrary to Mr. Monroe’s theory of his own awesomeness, corporations, universities, and government employers are tripping over themselves in a desperate scramble for qualified black candidates.  There’s a reason why Elizabeth Warren classified herself as a minority “Indian” all these years, and it’s not because she was fond of a few recipes that she suspected may have come from some unproven Native American great-great-great-great grandmother who might have been part Cherokee . . . 

    • brettearle

      What are you doing, trying to deny that Racism doesn’t exist, very much, in our society, these days?

      I don’t believe that you’ve succeeded.

      • jefe68

        Race-baiting class. That’s a very loaded comment.  The level of condescension towards blacks is also noted.

        What this guy is doing is the new meme in conservative ideology. That history, and in particular any history that paints an ugly picture of America’s past is ignored. 

        Interesting to note that the former governor, and now president of Purdue university Mitch Daniels had tried to ban all of Howard Zinn’s books (in particular The People’s History of the US) in the public education system. When informed it was being used at the university he is now engaged getting it removed from the university as well.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/mitch-daniels-howard-zinn_n_3625599.html 

        https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/18-5

        • 1Brett1

          He thinks “race-baiting class” is clever or something…the irony is that his invention of the phrase and his incessant use kind of proves he’s engaging in race-baiting. 

          • jefe68

            Kind of an insight into the intelligence level of this guy.

        • Ray in VT

          I saw the thing about Daniels late last week, and I found it to be pretty concerning.

          • jefe68

            Yes, I agree it’s but there is a a history of banning books in this country. From 1961 through the 80′s  “The Catcher in the Rye” by J.D. Salinger was the most censored book in high schools and libraries in the United States. In 1981, it was both the most censored book and the second most taught book in public schools in the United States.

            What Daniels is doing is censoring a book, what’s wrong with Zinn’s book? It offers up a different lens to American history. One that regressive conservatives like Daniels does not like.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, there is a long history of banning and challenging books.  I’ve seen it firsthand (books on homosexuality and contraception being thrown in the trash by low level library workers), and it does make pretty interesting reading as to what gets on the lists.  Here is the recent history:

            http://www.ala.org/advocacy/banned/frequentlychallenged/21stcenturychallenged

            There are often a lot of classics, historically, and for a while the banning rage was all about Harry Potter promoting Satan.

      • Lusitan75

        No — I believe that racism exists.

        I have posted elsewhere on this topic that I agree that racism exists in society these days.  It exists in the form of racism by whites against blacks, blacks against whites, and many other variations. For example, the in-laws of my best-friend still won’t speak to him after 4 years of marriage, because he, a white guy, is not the same race as his Asian-American wife.

        But the fact that racism exists in society does not mean that the Martin/Zimmerman case is a case about racism.

        The fact that racism exists in society is not an excuse for why blacks engage in a disproportionately high share of violent crime in this country.

        The fact that racism exists in society is not the reason why the boring, wealthy white dentist gets to live near Chris Rock’s mansion.

        The fact that racism exists in society is not evidence that Bryan Monroe, or any other successful black person, is better qualified or a better performer than a white person who achieved the same level of success.

        One can believe that racism exists in this world without believing any of the above racial theories.

    • jefe68

      Oh the inanity.

    • StilllHere

      Excellent post. No argument with your facts.

      • 1Brett1

        Still Here’s “facts” = opinion’s she likes.

        • StilllHere

          That helps explain your ignorance, you can’t even discern between facts and opinion.

          • 1Brett1

            First of all, Lusitan75 didn’t mention any facts; he did offer his opinions, though, which was my point to your reply to him. Can you list the so-called facts he stated?

            Secondly, your reply to me just above this reply to you misuses pronouns; you are using second person pronouns when you should be using first person. E.g., “that helps explain ‘your’ ignorance…” should be, “that helps explain ‘my’ ignorance.” And, “you can’t even discern the difference between facts and opinion,” should be, “‘I’ can’t even discern the difference between facts and opinions.” There are all sorts of tutorials on pronoun use online, most likely; I urge you to take the time to check some of them out.

          • Lusitan75

            Maybe you can volunteer your grammar services to help Rachel Jeantel, sir.

  • jgrosser

    I generally like this program, but sometimes it lacks balance and sometimes the host does not challenge false statements made by guests. This program falls short on both of these measures. For example, Toure frequently referred to the Zimmerman/Martin case as a “stand your ground” case, but the defense did not invoke the stand your ground law. Rather, it relied on Florida’s general self defense statute. Thus, referring to this case as a “stand your ground” case is misleading. I did not hear the host challenge this. In addition, Toure frequently stated or inferred that the self defense law itself is racially biased, but never elaborated. This is a controversial claim that should not go unchallenged. The fact that whites are more successful than blacks in invoking self defense, as Toure asserted, seems more readily explained by juror bias than by any inherent racial characteristic of self defense laws.

  • HonestDebate1

    As Larry Elder so righteously made clear to Piers Morgan a week ago, the risk posed to blacks from whites is infinitesimal compared to the risk from other blacks. Almost half the murders in america are committed by a segment represented by somewhere around 3% of the population. Why are you having this show? And Toure’? Really? It’s a new low.

    • HonestDebate1

      Chis Wallace on Fox News Sunday put it this wauy:

      “African-Americans make up 13 percent of the population, but commit more than half the murders in this country. And 93 percent of black murder victims are killed by blacks.”

      • 1Brett1

        86% of white murder victims are killed by whites. White people tend to kill those they know/are part of their own community; blacks tend to kill those they know/are part of their own community. 

        Why are you beating the same drum over and over? You have stated your opinions over and over. There are discussions all the time among members of the African-American community about young black men killing each other. Anytime any discussion happens about race, you harp on black-on-black crime, as if that is the only issue in the African-American community.

        You have remained completely silent about police disproportionately targeting/profiling blacks. 

        • HonestDebate1

          That’s just silly. 

          • StilllHere

            His knowledge of statistics is dangerous.  He thinks the rate is “on par.”

          • 1Brett1

            Polly Still Here: “You tell ‘em, Gregg! Rauw!”

            Yeah, in your and Gregg’s world 93% is disproportionately higher than 86%.

          • StilllHere

            You still don’t get it, clearly.

          • 1Brett1

            “Don’t get it! Rauw!” [parrot whistle]

            Is 93% disproportionately higher than 86%?

          • StilllHere

            Pathetic.  Think about it. 

      • jefe68

        Right wing BS.

        • 1Brett1

          He doesn’t mention that white-on-white murder percentages are on par with black-on-black murders.

          • Lusitan75

            “white-on-white murder percentages are on par with black-on-black murders”

            Yes.  But whites must ignore the black-on-white murders; pretend they don’t exist; pretend there isn’t racism behind some of those black-on-white murders; pretend there’s no reason to be apprehensive about black-on-white crime.

            Meanwhile, blacks can over-hype white-on-black crime; pretend that it’s such a serious issue; pretend it is justification for blacks to be apprehensive about whites; and use it as an excuse to villify white people and engage in endless race-baiting on a wide variety of topics.

      • StilllHere

        You’ll be insulted, but your facts stand.

        • HonestDebate1

          They are already making up things and putting words in my mouth (above) without touching the subject. Typical.

    • jefe68

      You’re still posting? I thought you were leaving.

      • 1Brett1

        He threatens to leave periodically (as if anyone cares) then posts the next day. His ego must allow him to make personal proclamations once in a while about his future intentions (as if anyone cares), and it is that same ego that won’t allow him to stay away (as if anyone cares). 

        • HonestDebate1

          One time I issued a challenge but you were the only taker. It wasn’t threat to leave. I don’t periodically threaten to leave. You just live in your own little world, writing everybody’s script, don’t you?

          I’ve been putting up hay day and night. I’ve got things to do.

          • 1Brett1

            Aww, you issued a challenge and nobody but little old me took the challenge. 

            When you announce you might leave, it’s a “challenge”! …Oh, I see. I see your ego hasn’t shrunk over putting up hay.

          • HonestDebate1

            It was a bet and my leaving was the prize. 

      • HonestDebate1

        Who said I was leaving?

        • jefe68

          I thought that was what you meant when you posted this:
          I’m beginning to rethink the value of being here at all but I do like the show. And I do think it is far more balance than this blog. I’m also a huge long time NPR fan.
          But this place has lost its charm.

          • 1Brett1

            It’s funny; supposedly the show’s far more balanced to him (when he hears guests espouse opinions he likes). Then, when he hears opinions from guests he doesn’t like, it is a one-sided show and breaches some code of conduct for a public radio program. 

            He also thinks the forum is not balanced, but look at this forum from yesterday. There were plenty of neocons expressing the very same opinions about race he has, at least equal to, if not more than, “lib” comments. I guess that also means when there are some opinions he doesn’t like, then the forum isn’t “balanced” enough, either. 

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re funny. The place has definitely lost it’s charm and I a beginning to rethink the value of being here. That’s true. I wrote of Evel Knieval leaps in logic and you have just made one.I never said I was leaving. 

          • StilllHere

            He’s knows what you’re thinking before you do.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      people have been really missing you. poor brett does not know what to do without you

      • HonestDebate1

        I wish it wasn’t true.

    • Michael Manning

      I have to agree. The foundation of the show is completely wrong. But there are serious issues and they do need to be addressed. This continual mention of ‘black’ youth or people killed by ‘whites’ but no mention of the real situation in black communities or the real numbers is disingenuous. Sad.

  • Geheran1958

    (continued from above) is somewhat disingenuous in that most cars “click-lock”automatically shortly after ignition.

  • OnPointComments

    Because I know everyone here is so fond of him:
     
    BILL O’REILLY’S TALKING POINTS, JULY 22, 2013:
     
    “On Friday the President delivered some remarks about the Trayvon Martin case and race in general.  Talking Points believes the President was correct in addressing the race issue and framing it with the Martin case, but the sad truth is that our leadership, from the President on down, has no clue about how to solve problems within the black community, and many are frightened to even broach the issue.  
     
    That’s because race hustlers and the grievance industry have intimidated the so-called ‘conversation,’ turning any valid criticism of African American culture into charges of racial bias.  Many in power simply walk away, leaving millions of law-abiding African Americans to fend for themselves in violent neighborhoods.  You want racism?  That’s racism! 
     
    Thus it is time for some straight talk, and I hope the President is listening.  Young black men commit homicides at a rate that is ten times greater than whites or Hispanics.  Presented with damning evidence like that, the civil rights industry looks the other way or makes excuses.  They blame guns, poor education, lack of jobs, but rarely do they define the problem accurately.  The reason there is so much violence and chaos in the black precincts is the disintegration of the African American family.  About 73% of all black babies are born out of wedlock.  The lack of involved fathers leads to young boys growing up resentful and unsupervised.  But when was the last time you saw a public service ad telling young black girls to avoid become pregnant?  Has President Obama done such an ad?  How about Jackson or Sharpton?  Has the Congressional Black Caucus demanded an ad like that?  How about the pundits who work for NBC News?  White people don’t force black people to have babies out of wedlock; that’s a personal decision that has devastated millions of children.  
     
    Raised without structure, young black men often reject education and gravitate toward the street culture.  The entertainment industry encourages the irresponsibility by marketing a gangsta’ culture to impressionable children.  These so-called entertainers get rich while the kids who emulate their lyrics and attitude destroy themselves.  
     
    Then there’s the drug issue.  What do the race hustlers and limousine liberals complain about?  The number of black men in prison for selling drugs.  The thugs who sell hard drugs, no matter what color they are, deserve to be put away for long periods of time.  They sell a product that enslaves and kills, they are scum!  When was the last time you heard the Congressional Black Caucus say that?  How about Jackson and Sharpton?  How about President Obama? 
     
    The solution to the epidemic of violent crime in poor black neighborhoods is to actively discourage pregnancies out of marriage, to impose strict discipline in the public schools, to create a zero tolerance for drug and gun crimes, and to challenge the entertainment industry to stop peddling garbage.  Listen up, you greedheads:  If a kid can’t use proper English, uses the ‘f’ word in every sentence, and is disrespectful in his or her manner, that child will never be able to compete in the marketplace in America.  It has nothing to do with slavery, it has everything to do with you Hollywood people and you derelict parents.  You want a conversation?  You got it!  It is time for the African American leadership, including President Obama, to stop the nonsense.  Walk away from the world of victimization and nonsense and lead the way out of this mess.”

    • HonestDebate1

      I missed that last night and tuned in when Juan Williams was praising him for it. Thanks for posting, he’s right on target.

      • OnPointComments

        I went out to dinner last night and missed it too.  I posted this reply way, way down the list, before I read O’Reilly’s Talking Points (honestly, I had not read it), and was surprised that there were so many commonalities:
         
        Marley Lion was a 17 year old who had just graduated from an academic magnet school.  He was asleep in his car when he was shot five times and killed.
         
        If there had been protests over the murder of Marley Lion, I wonder how it would have been viewed, and what the President’s reaction would have been. 
         
        If someone had organized crowds to express outrage over the collapse of black family structure; obscenely high out-of-wedlock birth rate; fathers who abandon their children; school dropout rate and lack of education; high unemployment; drug use; the hip hop culture that celebrates the thug lifestyle, drug abuse, and the degradation of women; among other facts, all of which contribute to the number of black vs. non-black murderers being disproportionately far higher than their representation in the population as a whole, would the President have addressed the nation about Marley Lion?  My guess is that he wouldn’t have.
         
        Would the President have told us that when we see a woman on an elevator, clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath because a black man boarded the elevator, to remember that she views crime through a set of experiences and a history, such as the murder of many like Marley Lion, that doesn’t go away?  I don’t think so; if he spoke of it at all, he might have said that we should judge an individual on the individual’s actions, not those of someone else even if based on history and experience.
         
        I doubt that Eric Holder would have launched an investigation and set up a tip line to root out the cause of the murder of Marley Lion.
         
        Maybe the President would have consoled the family of Marley Lion, and told us that younger generations interact better than we do; those comments would have been compassionate and welcomed.  But I doubt anyone would have asked that we have a national discussion about the cause of the death of Marley Lion.

    • hennorama

      OPC – I was watching the film “Joyeux Noël (Merry Christmas) the other day. It’s from 2005 and is about the World War I Christmas truce of December 1914, depicted through the eyes of French, British and German soldiers.

      From IMDb.com:

      “On Christmas Eve of 1914, in the Western Front in France in World War I, the Scottish, the German and the French troops have a moment of truce and share moments of peace and friendship. When the soprano Anna Sorensen succeeds in convincing the Prussian Prince to join her tenor husband Nikolaus Sprink to sing for the German high command, Sprink brings her to the front to sing for his comrades in the trench. The Scottish Lieutenant Gordon and the French Lieutenant Audebert have an informal and unauthorized meeting with the German Lieutenant Horstmayer and negotiate a truce for that night, and the priest Palmer celebrates a mass for the soldiers.”

      This film begins with scenes of three separate schoolboys, one Scottish, one French, and one German, each reciting patriotic speeches and songs, alone at the front of a classroom. The speeches and songs both praise their countries and condemn their enemies. This is what Roger Ebert wrote about the opening scenes:

      “…in the opening scenes of “Joyeux Noel,” …schoolchildren of the three nations sing with angelic fervor, each in their own language, about the necessity of wiping the enemy from the face of the earth.”

      We soon see the horrors of trench warfare, and its impacts on the Scots, the French, and the Germans.

      There’s a stalemate, and Christmas is coming,so no one is in any mood to fight. Each side is wary of the other, alert for an attack even on Christmas Eve.

      Long story short, there’s “an informal, and unauthorized, truce where the various front-line soldiers of the conflict peacefully met each other in No Man’s Land to share a precious pause in the carnage with a fleeting brotherhood.”

      They’re united in turn by music, religion, food, drink, sport, language, the futility of war, “small world” stories, etc.

      It was a wonderful and heartwarming film.

      While watching I couldn’t help but think of the issue of race in America, and its divisiveness. I started thinking of writing a comment about the things that unite us – “their team is your team, their God is your God,” etc.

      When the film ended, I switched back to TV, and to Fox News, where I was met with Mr. O’Reilly’s bombast.

      Talk about spoiling the mood!

      But rather than changing the channel, I instead turned off the sound and turned on the closed-captioning.

      Mr. O’Reilly’s words have a great deal of merit. His delivery on the other hand … not so much.

      I’m endeavoring to read O’Reilly’s words again, as well as those of President Obama.

      There’s truth in both, if you look for it.

      Sources:
      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424205/plotsummary

      http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/joyeux-noel-2006

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyeux_No%C3%ABl

      • OnPointComments

        TYFYR.

        Personally, I agree with Bill O’Reilly’s delivery of his talking points. It’s about time someone got mad about what is happening in the African American community; maybe Bill O’Reilly isn’t the best person to be getting mad, but who else is doing it? Not President Obama, and certainly not the race hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson.

        It may be in the general nature of people to want to address the problems that require someone else to change a behavior, instead of addressing the behavior that requires one’s own change. Maybe that is what Mr. O’Reilly was doing, but it is also what President Obama did. However, the problems that Mr. O’Reilly enumerated are the bigger and more pressing problems, and are having a far more profound impact, in my opinion. I wish the leadership of the country would address these most crucial problems in the black community. I wonder if it would have an impact if Mrs. Obama appeared in an abundance of PSAs imploring young girls to not have children until they finished school and got married, and warning them of the likelihood of poverty if they ignore the advice. It couldn’t hurt.

        • hennorama

          OPC – backatcha.

          As stated, there is value in what Mr. O’Reilly said. However, it’s easy for many to dismiss him, due to his delivery and some of his other views, which can get dangerously close to Pat Buchanan territory. O’Reilly often comes off as an angry white man, kicking and screaming about the changes around him, especially about changes that involve people who don’t look like him.

          For example, on Election Night 2012, Mr. O’Reilly said “The White Establishment is now the minority.”

          “The White Establishment is now the minority. And the voters, many of them, feel the economic system is stacked against them and they want STUFF. You’re gonna see a tremendous Hispanic vote for President Obama, overwhelming black vote for President Obama, and women will probably break President Obama’s way. People feel that they are entitled to THINGS, and which candidate between the two is going to give them things?”

          I am in no way trying to imply that Mr. O’Reilly is anything but an open-minded unbiased realist. But one could put some of his remarks together to make an argument about his attitudes.

          As to Michele Obama or anyone else making PSAs – as you say, it couldn’t hurt.

          These issues didn’t happen overnight, and won’t be resolved overnight.

          But it’s not solely about race.

          Is poverty the chicken or the egg?

          Is education the chicken or the egg?

          Is population density involved?

          Could there be other factors?

          And one needs to be careful about statistics, as you know.

          Check this out. Mr. O’Reilly says “About 73% of all black babies are born out of wedlock.” Why doesn’t he mention the percentages for Hispanics (53%) and ‘American Indian or Alaska Natives’ (66%)?

          see:
          http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_01.pdf (Table 15 on pg. 45)

          What does this mean? Is it due to fewer African-Americans getting married but still having children? Is it due to declining birthrates for married women vs. unmarried women? Is it some combination?
          If there was no change whatsoever to the birth rate or incidence of births from unmarried women, and the rate and incidence declined for married women, then the percentage of total births from unmarried women would change.

          (OPC – I realize this is basic for you, but you’re not the only person who will read this).

          Let’s say during one year we had 40 births from unmarried women, and 60 from married women. The next year, there are another 40 births from unmarried women, but only 50 from married women. No change to the number or births from unmarried women, but the proportion changes, and the percentage increases. Then we have to consider access to birth control and all women’s health services, etc. etc.

          See an article on theatlantic.com, tiled “Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America’ here:

          http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/

          Here’s some info from a CDC report from Aug. 2012, titled “Births: Final Data for 2010′:
          (this is the last link, below)

          “Birth rates for unmarried women fell significantly in 2010 in all age
          groups from15–19 through 30–34,with the declines beginning in most
          cases in 2007 (Table 16). Prior to this recent period, age-specific rates
          for women aged 20 and over had increased steadily from2002 through
          2007; rates for teenagers fluctuated moderately. As a consequence of
          these varying trends, teenagers under age 20 accounted for a steadily
          smaller fraction of all nonmarital births: 20 percent in 2010 compared
          with 28 percent in 2000 (24).

          “Nonmarital birth rates declined for all race and Hispanic origin
          population groups. The rate for non-Hispanic white women fell 2 per­
          cent to 32.9 per 1,000. Rates for black (65.3 in 2010) and API women
          (22.3) fell 5 percent to 6 percent each, while the rate for Hispanic
          women dropped 10 percent to 80.6 per 1,000. Since peaking in 2007
          at 102.1 per 1,000, the rate for Hispanic women has declined 21 per­
          cent. Trends by age group were generally similar within these popu­
          lations, with rates declining for women under age 35.

          “In 2010, 40.8 percent of all births were to unmarried women. This
          level compares with 33.2 percent in 2000 and 18.4 percent in 1980
          (Table C). Within age groups, 88 percent of births to teenagers and
          63 percent of births to women aged 20–24 were nonmarital. One in
          five births to women aged 30 and over were to unmarried women. The
          proportions of nonmarital births vary widely among population sub­
          groups. In 2010, these proportions were 17 percent for API, 29 percent
          for non-Hispanic white, 53 percent for Hispanic, 66 percent for AIAN,
          and 73 percent for non-Hispanic black births.

          “A recent analysis of data from the 2006–2010 NSFG documented
          steady increases in the proportions of nonmarital births to women in cohab­
          iting relationships (25), rising from 29 percent of births in 1980–1984, to
          40 percent in 1998–2002, and 58 percent in 2006–2010 (25,26).”

          See:
          http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/unmarry.htm (CDC FastStats – Unmarried Childbearing)
          http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.pdf (Changing Patterns of Nonmarital Childbearing in the
          United States)

          and:
          http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_01.pdf (National Vital Statistics Reports ‘Births: Final Data for 2010′)

          • OnPointComments

            An excellent article by Juan Williams:
            http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/24/president-obama-oreilly-and-trayvon-cry-for-help/

            Excerpt:
            Now the first black president has a chance to use his unique standing in black America to move beyond the racial static.

            That is why O’Reilly is exactly right to point to the black man with the highest level of credibility in black America since Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. – President Obama – and challenge that man to deliver the message to black America that it is time to focus on fixing the black family and helping young black men get on the road to success.

            Here is what he should say clearly. The road to success is plain as day.
            1. Stay in school and graduate from the highest level of school
            2. Take a job and hold it
            3. Marry after you have finished your education
            4. Don’t have children until you are 21-years-old and married.

          • hennorama

            OPC – of course Mr. Williams’ “road to success” is the same for all, not just “black America … the black family and … young black men …”

  • Michael Manning

    I’m only half way thru this show Tom. Are you seriously not going to address the fact that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, not in self-defense, but as an aggressive act? I mean after all of the national dialogue how do you end up with one side that is standing on a false story? The entire show becomes a fraud, sadly, instead of a real conversation about serious issues.

    • OnPointComments

      There is a conflation of legal vs. illegal issues by some who comment on the Zimmerman case.  They think that the legal act of watching and following someone is a valid reason for the illegal act of assaulting that person; it is not.  They also think that the initiation of the crime was the legal act of Zimmerman getting out of his truck, and not the illegal act of force which the jury said Martin initiated; they are wrong.

      • Michael Manning

        It’s as though the headline, “White vigilante kills unarmed black youth”, was the lead for this show. But we know that didn’t happen. I just expect so much more from OnPoint. No depth, no other points of view. Does NPR also think the verdict was unjust? Have they not done their own research before airing a show like this? How much time do they need?

    • http://www.facebook.com/d0job.Knows Dan Joy

      If there wasnt enough evidence to prove Zimmerman maliciously killed Treyvon, there is certainly no evidence that Treyvon maliciously attacked George.  I see your bludgeoned and battered face, and I raise you a dead body with a bullet hole in it.

      • StilllHere

        The jury doesn’t agree with you.

        • 1Brett1

          Nope, Trayvon Martin wasn’t on trial. The verdict wasn’t that Trayvon Martin was found guilty of a malicious attack. The state didn’t prove Zimmerman was guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. Period. The verdict didn’t have anything to do with Martin. The defense didn’t prove Martin was guilty of anything. Your understanding, Polly, of our judicial system is even more limited than anyone could have previously imagined…astounding.

          • Michael Manning

            Actually that is the point, yes he was found not guilty. The reason he was not guilty is that the state could not prove that he wasn’t simply defending himself. And looking at his wounds, his hands, the eyewitness testimony, the testimony of Jeantel and Zimmerman’s testimony Trayvon came to Zimmerman and started the beating. If you want to somehow justify that, good for you, but he died doing what he chose to do. A gun is the problem, not Zimmerman, or profiling or racism, in this case.

          • 1Brett1

            “The reason he was not guilty is that the state could not prove that he wasn’t simply defending himself.”

            No, he was found not guilty of 2nd degree murder and manslaughter because the state did not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed murder or manslaughter. 

            The defense introduced self defense as the reasonable doubt, which they didn’t have to prove; it wasn’t their burden. All they needed to do was raise doubt.

            Evidence that Martin started the altercation, or that he threw his punch to Zimmerman’s face first or was provoked into it, was not proven, only raised as a possibility, which is all the defense had to do. We don’t know for sure what happened. 

            As far as the gun being the problem…while I am not a proponent of public concealed weapon carrying, and Zimmerman seemed especially irresponsible as a concealed weapon carrier, I disagree with your blaming the gun.  

          • Michael Manning

            No gun, no gun death. So if he didn’t commit murder or manslaughter, what did he do then? We do know that he was on top of Zimmerman, that he broke his nose, that he was slamming his head into the pavement. Could that have been in self-defense? Sure, maybe. Zimmerman’s hands were completely free of marks from striking anything. But the timeline also shows that he was near home and came to Zimmerman so it looks like Trayvon sought him out. The fuller picture emerges if we understand Trayvon, Zimmerman, and what happened as best we can. Zimmerman certainly used the weapon responsibly if it was meant for self-defense. 

          • 1Brett1

            They (the prosecution) didn’t prove that Zimmerman did or didn’t do anything; that’s the point, and that’s what their burden was. Their responsibility was to prove he committed murder only, which they did not prove. That’s all that happened, that is what we are sure about; all else is about doubt. Doubts aren’t proof. 

          • Lusitan75
          • Michael Manning

            Not saying you can’t be killed, I’m saying it’s much less likely. Obviously.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            you were making sense until your last sentence.

          • Michael Manning

            The fact that Zimmerman, or anyone, is allowed to carry means that people will die in situations that do not warrant death. We are seeing it all the time. In this case, most likely Zimmerman would have been beaten badly, there were people there, someone called 911, he wasn’t going to die. And Trayvon would have gone to jail.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            it must be nice to be so optimistic. that’s easy when its not your life at risk. you don’t really have to have your head smashed into concrete too many times to die. probably after Zimmerman was dead travon would have run and may or may not have ever been caught. Zimmerman had called the police at the beginning and everything that went down went down while he was waiting for them to come. the police cannot protect you, that is not their job, despite what it may say on their car.  if people are not allowed to carry many more innocent people will die. if you have to choose one group to be armed why would it be criminals?
             

          • Lusitan75

            Because teenage thugs beating a victim senseless couldn’t possibly kill the victim, right?

            http://summit.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/williams-clark-released-on-bail

          • jefe68

            The only thug I see here is you and your loutish comments. 

          • Lusitan75

            Aw, Jefe thinks I’m a thug.  Don’t worry Jefe, no one ever got beaten to death on a message board.  But if you see some teenage thugs beating an innocent man, don’t think for a second that it can’t result in death.  No concrete even needed.

      • Michael Manning

        You can say whatever you like but that is certainly what happened. So to carry it to further absurdity and say Zimmerman shot an unarmed youth is even less supported by any testimony or evidence. Obviously this was self-defense. When people wake up to what we’re talking about here, that it isn’t racism or even a good example of profiling, then we can start to learn something. But there are many who will not accept Trayvon’s truth, and until that happens they are fooling themselves. That’s the story no one wants to hear, that Trayvon chose to put a beating on a guy for following him and died doing it.

      • Lusitan75

        “I see your bludgeoned and battered face, and I raise you a dead body with a bullet hole in it.”

        Yes, but unless Zimmerman shot Martin, and then Martin beat the crap out of Zimmerman after being shot, it’s clear that the chronological order of the injuries was:

        1. Martin beating on Zimmerman
        2. Zimmerman shooting Martin.

        I don’t see how any plausible interpretation of the evidence could be otherwise.  Witnesses on the scene immediately after shots were heard confirmed no evidence of Zimmerman banging his own head against the concrete and breaking his own nose after shooting Martin.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          in fact neither the judge nor the prosecutor could even state a theory of the case in which Zimmerman was guilty

        • https://me.yahoo.com/a/buGzNkVugtTyW6yfT.8YV0ylLI8E#fd94a Nina

          If you look at the autopsy report, Trayvon Martin had the sweater of his right arm torn. He had a small cut on the fourth finger of his left hand. He had no other injuries to his hands or otherwise, except for a gunshot to his heart. 

          If someone punches another person repeatedly, they bruise their knuckles (at the very least). I know, because when I was a kid, my boyfriend got in multiple fights. If he hit anyone hard enough to hurt, it damaged his hands. 

          Here’s what I think happened: Zimmerman followed Martin. He probably intended to simply restrain him until the police arrived. I bet that he grabbed Martin’s right arm, ripping his sweater. Martin would have swung with his left hand, breaking Zimmerman’s nose, and sustaining a cut to his left hand. Unless Martin is left handed, there would have been no other reason for him to swing with his left hand- and the mark would have been on his other hand. He probably swung just once- because there was only one small cut.Zimmerman claims that he was walking back to his car when Martin jumped him. I doubt this. First of all- why would someone who was running away (Zimmerman stated on the 911 call, which I listened to, that Martin was running away and there were sounds of rapid footfall and panting coming from Zimmerman- that’s why the dispatcher asked “Are you following him?”. This syncs with Martin’s gf’s statement that Martin was ‘running away’ from a guy- and that he was trying to lose him by going home through back yards.)

          Secondly- if Zimmerman was walking back to his car- how did the altercation take place fifty feet away, in the dark, on grass, behind the homes? Was he taking the scenic route?

          Zimmerman was on trial for murder. His only option was to plead self defense. He had taken a class that covered ‘stand your ground’ laws. He had every motivation in the world to lie, and I think he did so strategically. I don’t think he intended to shoot an unarmed teen. But I do think he followed the boy, tried to restrain him, got punched in the face, and shot him in reaction. Zimmerman’s story does not make sense if you look at the evidence. i think the prosecution did a lousy job of presenting this- but I also think it’s pretty clear if you look directly at the case, without being fed information through a lens.

          • Michael Manning

            You just don’t want see the real story. I can’t help with that, but yes, there was no reason to take this to trial as Zimmerman had defensive wounds and Jeantel’s testimony tells us Trayvon was ‘by’ his daddy’s house. The question you might ask instead is why did Trayvon come back to find and confront Zimmerman? And the answers might be because he was going to punch him in the head. Because he wasn’t afraid at all. Because he wanted to find out what Zimmerman wanted, etc. So once he has come back to Zimmerman he is not defending himslef. In fact there was never a threat from Zimmerman. None, that we know of, so Trayvon has to take responsibility for his choice. That’s where the line ends, sadly.

          • Lusitan75

            “I don’t think he intended to shoot an unarmed teen. But I do think he followed the boy, tried to restrain him, got punched in the face, and shot him in reaction.”

            That’s possible, but I don’t think it’s likely.  I don’t think a single, left-handed punch from a right-handed person (grabbed and caught off guard) would break Zimmerman’s nose, cut up his face, and cut up the back of his head.  

            It’s also inconsistent with witnesses who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

            It’s also inconsistent with the cries of “Help!” that go on for quite some time in the 911 call before the shot is fired.  (If Martin just took a single swing and single punch at Zimmerman, it seems pretty unlikely that Zimmerman would just lay there screaming for help for a while, and then just decide what the heck, I’ll just shoot Martin . . . )

            It’s also inconsistent with the expert who testified that the angle of Martin’s gunshot wound was consistent with being shot at very close range from someone down below him.

            There are many ways that Martin’s sweater could have been ripped; I don’t think (and neither did the jury) that it was from Zimmerman walking up to Martin and grabbing him.

            Nothing in Zimmerman’s attitude or voice while he was on the phone with 911 indicated that he had the guts to walk up to Martin and physically restrain him.  If he planned to do that, he would have done that much earlier in the situation.

    • jefe68

      According to test results made public last May, which showed evidence of Zimmerman’s hands on the firearm, but not those of the teenager he killed. And an analysis showed that scrapings from underneath the teenager’s fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman’s DNA, as may rub off in a prolonged struggle.

      Yet Zimmerman has said there was a bloody fight before the shooting, and he’s got the pictures to prove it. Those include photos, reportedly taken minutes after the shooting, showing streaks of blood on the back of Zimmerman’s head. And in December, a photo posted on Zimmerman’s defense web site, one that his lawyers say was taken that same winter night, showed the defendant with blood on his nose and lips.

      What is the significance of Trayvon still holding a bag of Skittles in his hand as he lay dead?

      False story? I would say your entire narrative is based on a lot of falsehoods.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lloyd.goodman.10 Lloyd Goodman
    • Lusitan75

      That’s a good summary (one of many that I’ve seen) about the facts of crime broken down by race.  The reason it’s not mentioned (or only mentioned in passing while making arguments that are not supported by facts — see the “vicious cycle” fantasy that was discussed on the show) is because it doesn’t fit the race-baiting class’ storyline of evil white people abusing black people.

      One interesting thing that came to mind while reading the information in the link you provided was this statistic:

      “Homicide victims usually are killed by people of their own race and ethnicity. The pattern goes back at least a generation.

      Bureau of Justice Statistics data show that from 1976 to 2005, white victims were killed by white defendants 86% of the time and black victims were killed by blacks 94% of the time.”

      This matches what one of the guests (can’t remember which one — I think it was Monroe) said in this show, i.e., something along the lines of “the majority of white murder victims are killed by white people, so it doesn’t make any sense to fear young black males” (I’m paraphrasing).

      Funny thing is, that works in reverse too.  The vast majority (even a higher majority!) of black murder victims are killed by blacks, not whites.  So making a big deal about the Martin/Zimmerman case, like it’s the most important thing for young black males, is nonsensical.  Black parents should focus more of purported “Talk” they have with their teenage sons on the danger of murder posed by other blacks, not some overblown concern for their teenage sons being murdered by evil white people.

      But no, white people must ignore murder of whites by blacks, while black people can gripe, protest, and race-bait ad nauseam about the rare incident of a black youth killed by a non-black youth, and the entire nation has to be consumed with their tired grievances for months on end.

    • https://me.yahoo.com/a/buGzNkVugtTyW6yfT.8YV0ylLI8E#fd94a Nina

      I think it does get mentioned and discussed in relation to other events and in other contexts. I think the reason black on black crime is not being discussed in relation to the Zimmerman case is that this situation had nothing to do with black on black crime. The problem here was racial profiling of a young black man as a criminal- simply based on appearance. So that is what people are talking about and why. 

      This is clearly still a problem in the United States that needs to be addressed. It is as important as black on black violence- but it is a separate issue. It is not less important than any other issue. 

      We know it is still a problem, because if it were not, Zimmerman would never have followed a kid walking home from the store who was minding his own business. He would have seen the boy and thought “Look- there’s a kid walking home from the store!” Not “Look- there’s a thug or a punk in my neighborhood- I’d better call 911.”

      By changing the subject, you are not making a helpfu point or contributing to the dialogue in a constructive way. You are simply saying “look over there, not at this.” And that doesn’t help fix anything.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        perhaps Zimmerman’s assessment of travon as a punk had nothing to do with the fact he was black and more to do with the fact that he was actually a punk.
        http://nyencore.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/trayvon-martin-gun-photo-2-052313.jpg
        http://watchdogwire.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/florida/files/2013/05/trayvon-martin-cell-phone-pictures.jpg

        have you even watched zimmermans police reenactment in whole?

        • Jonathon Cronin

          This is a prime example of that Dirty Harry mentality.   Trayvon didn’t need to be a saint not to get shot.    People with guns do NOT override the right to life because someone is a ‘punk’.   No I don’t feel lucky today.   Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter in every state without ‘Stand Your Ground’ in the jury instructions.    This is a travesty of justice and trying to smear Martin shows your absolute ignorance in this.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

             an accurate description and self photos of a person can hardly be described as a smear.  are saying its not fair to call a kid involved in drugs and violence a punk? what’s your definition of a punk? 
            I think smearing someone is calling them a racist when there is not any reason to believe that is true.
            the premise we are supposed to believe is that martin was an innocent candy lover who could never do anything wrong. we must believe he is the one 17 year old boy who does not do stupid things due to  the influence of testosterone. for any theory of the case in which Zimmerman is not defending himself to work we have to believe a kid suspended from school for fighting and drugs would not possibly hit someone who offended him. all he had to do was not assault someone. despite the language in the instructions to the jury stand your ground is irrelevant. how can one stand ones ground if one is flat on ones back?

  • OnPointComments

    Many commentators are saying the same thing:
     
    BLACKS MUST ALSO LOOK INWARD, AT OUR CULTURE
    “How can we demand respect from others when we show so little of it for ourselves?”
     http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/216508201.html?utm_source=7-23+Bell+on+Trayvon&utm_campaign=7-23+Bell+trayvon&utm_medium=email
     
    Excerpt:What often gets lost in this narrative is how we in the black community often contribute to our own destruction. The Martin case, tragic as it is, pales in comparison to the epidemic of black-on-black murders, which is the leading cause of death for young black men in this country.
     
    The simple fact is that black thugs pose a much greater threat to me and my family than racial profiling ever will.
     
    How can we build a culture of self-respect, honor and dignity when the most visible expression of black culture today is hip-hop and rap music?  This malignant new form of black culture plays a dominant role in defining what it means to be an authentic young black male.

  • http://www.facebook.com/care.crisp Care Honey Crisp

    So glad that one of the speakers mentioned “Why is she out at night; why is she wearing a short skirt.”–victim blaming. Maybe we can have an on-Point piece on that. It is prevalent throughout the American culture.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      yes many people have been doing that to poor Zimmerman. its disgusting

      • jefe68

        As are a lions share of your comments.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          c’mon jefe nothing on topic to say?
          I’m starting to get worried about you, are you doing ok jefe? how is everything?

          • jefe68

            On topic? How about the stupidity of armed idiots like Zimmerman shooting people and the saying it was self defense. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            that’s a little better ,it seems to be on a topic ,was that a question? people shoot people every day in self defense. this case seems special insofar as the media has tried to make it a racial issue

  • its2013enough

    So the last point on 7/22 was “and there was no rioting!”
    Surprised? So glad Toure called you on it. It’s that stereotype of danger and violence that made Zimemrman pull the trigger and kill Trayvon.
    Your response that you meant people were talking, would only be believed by the nieve.

    • Michael Manning

      He pulled the trigger because he was being beaten, badly, in the dark, and had a gun on his hip. 

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        “in the dark” oh just because it is “Dark” he should be afraid of it? typical

        • Michael Manning

          What are you talking about? Are you completely missing what I’m saying? I’m saying he fired in self-defense, it isn’t possible to project what you or anyone else would do in that situation. It was dark, he was being beaten, he had a gun on his hip, those things go into his decision, they’re just facts. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I was just trying to capture the shrill irrational nonsensicalness of typical race focused anti self defense posters. apparently I nailed it.

          • Michael Manning

            Your response seems to be to me, and I support his claim of self-defense. Sarcasm is tough in print sometimes. Thx.

      • https://me.yahoo.com/a/buGzNkVugtTyW6yfT.8YV0ylLI8E#fd94a Nina

        According to him. Only according to him. You don’t know if that’s true or not, Michael. The man was on trial for murder- pleading self defense was his only way out. He wouldn’t have said anything else. All we know, really, is that he followed, somehow confronted and shot a seventeen year old kid who was walking home with a can of soda. We really don’t know what happened. We only know George Zimmerman’s version of events- and his credibility is utterly questionable. He didn’t get off because he was proven innocent- He got off because of reasonable doubt. You should not be making those kinds of assumptions about what happened, because you were not there.

        • Reuben

          wasn’t a soda. I’m not sure you have a full grasp of any of the facts. You have a responsability to yourself to be accurate in all of your dealings.

        • Michael Manning

          Not at all Nina. We know an awful lot more than that. Testimony from Jeantel that Trayvon was already home indicates he chose to come back and confront Zimmerman. The wounds to Zimmerman show he was being beaten. The eyewitness locates Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman pinned and being beaten. We know Trayvon punched a bus driver in the nose. We know Trayvon was in a hostile conversation by phone and text at the very time this was all happening. Actually there is no evidence, none, to suggest that Zimmerman initiated anything. And we know he did nothing illegal. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      yeah that what it was,  the stereotypes! it had nothing to do with the fact his nose was broken and head was being slammed into cement. thanks now I understand how Zimmerman was just a racist murderer not acting in self defense at all.

      • https://me.yahoo.com/a/buGzNkVugtTyW6yfT.8YV0ylLI8E#fd94a Nina

        All we know is that Zimmerman followed Martin and got into a confrontation with him. If he started the confrontation, as he well may have, he was not justified in shooting and killing that boy. Being punched in the face, even, is not a justification for shooting and killing someone. I just made this point to someone else, but I will make it again. We don’t know what really happened. The only person alive who knows is George Zimmerman, and his credibility is questionable at best. We have only heard his version of events- we don’t know if he is telling the truth or not. He was not seriously injured- but a young boy is now dead. It’s entirely possible that Trayvon Martin was acting in self defense. It’s entirely possible that Zimmerman confronted him and lied about it. You should not be making any assumptions about a situation you were not there to witness, and only a fool would take the word of a man on trial for murder at face value.

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          there were several witnesses and 911 recordings and physical evidence. there was a trial where they discussed this. if someone punches you once and stops punching you then you are not defending yourself if you shoot them from far away. if they punch you once breaking your nose and knocking you to the ground and then start smashing your head into the pavement and then tries to get your gun while threatening to kill you while on top of you then its more than justified.  he did not testify during the trial but did take the police through every detail of what he says happened, if you have watched this specifically what in that description did you find incredible? if you have not heard him tell his story, which you believe to be the only evidence, how have you come to the conclusions you have about his guilt?  only a fool would ignore a mountain of evidence. do you think Zimmerman is a super genius able to perfectly account for every detail and witness so perfectly the police and prosecutors could not poke a hole in it?
          I posted a version of his police reenactment that is synced with the 911 calls and his written statement from that night. if you have not seen it and you actually want to hear his side of the story, which you believe to be the only side, let me know.

  • Theodus

    I think if President Obama had not shun race and made it something more about something you ought to be ashamed of “whites” would not be as indifferent about race as they have become and steadily becoming. Whites still think we have achieved “Equality” (Equal Opportunity–Equal Treatment)   in America. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
    Theodus

  • OnPointComments

    After hearing many commentators, politicians, and pundits over the past week, and reading many comments and columns about the Zimmerman case, I have come to the conclusion that there is no one more arrogantly self-righteous than a white liberal lecturing us on what it’s like to be black in America.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      apparently you missed the cognoscenti article where a Chinese American lectured everyone on what its like to be black in America.

    • Matt2525

       I, too, am sick of old white men telling me how racist I am.

  • MrWakiki

    falling

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