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Week In The News: Farm Bill, Immigration, Syria

Obama and Putin’s chilly meeting. The Supreme Court says no to Arizona’s voter ID law. Protests rock Brazil. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

President Barack Obama meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, Monday, June 17, 2013. Obama and Putin discussed the ongoing conflict in Syria during their bilateral meeting. (Evan Vucci/AP)

President Barack Obama meets with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Enniskillen, Northern Ireland, Monday, June 17, 2013. Obama and Putin discussed the ongoing conflict in Syria during their bilateral meeting. (Evan Vucci/AP)

World in motion this week. In the streets of Brazil, huge crowds up in arms. In Iran, voters go moderate for a president.  On Wall Street, the Fed and China’s banks sparking a sell-off. In Congress, with a “border surge” pushing immigration reform.

Some things didn’t move. The farm bill. Talks with the Taliban. Putin with Obama — unmoved on Syria. The Supreme Court, with a “no” to Arizona’s citizenship test.

We’ve got the NSA, leaked again. And James Gandolfini — Tony Soprano — gone too soon.

This hour, On Point: Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

– Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Bryan Monroe, editor of CNN Politics. (@BryanMonroeCNN)

Trudy Rubin, foreign affairs columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer. (@trudyrubin)

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

Al Jazeera: Karzai ‘Willing To Join’ Taliban Peace Talks — “The talks were thrown into disarray when Karzai cancelled a planned delegation to the newly opened Taliban office in Doha because he said the US broke commitments that the office would not be seen as an embassy or government-in-exile.”

The New York Times: Web’s Reach Binds N.S.A. And Silicon Valley Leaders – “Silicon Valley has what the spy agency wants: vast amounts of private data and the most sophisticated software available to analyze it. The agency in turn is one of Silicon Valley’s largest customers for what is known as data analytics, one of the valley’s fastest-growing markets. To get their hands on the latest software technology to manipulate and take advantage of large volumes of data, United States intelligence agencies invest in Silicon Valley start-ups, award classified contracts and recruit technology experts.”

CNN: Senate Immigration Deal Includes Tougher Border Security – “A bipartisan amendment intended to increase Republican support for a Senate immigration bill would require 20,000 more border agents, completing a 700-mile fence on the frontier with Mexico and taking other steps before undocumented immigrants can get green cards, GOP sponsors of the compromise said Thursday.”

NPR: Supreme Court Strikes Down Arizona Voting Law – “The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday struck down a state-mandated requirement that prospective voters in Arizona provide proof of citizenship to be able to register to vote in national elections. But some experts are concerned that the court may have inserted a few ‘poison pills’ in its opinion that would damage voting-rights protections someday down the road.”

The Economist: T time: The G8 Pledges To Tackle The ‘Three Ts’ — “A new seven-point strategy to end the bloodshed in Syria was the headline-grabber from the G8 summit in Northern Ireland on June 17th-18th. But the leaders of some of the world’s richest economies also made progress on the ‘three Ts’: trade, transparency and tax.”

 

 

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  • hennorama

    Happy Summer Solstice 2013!

    • 1Brett1

      I missed seeing everyone at the weekly liberal (socialist-communist) meeting this week; so thanks, hennorama. I celebrated the Solstice traditionally, though, with a night time bonfire, moondance, saging-smudging and human sacrifice (this year it was a libertarian). I also collected rocks all week, purifying them, then arranging  them in a pentagram for the sun-wheel ceremony…sorry you couldn’t make it.  See you at the Bible burning with Taliban leaders next week!

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Yeah, I missed you there, so I prayed to a tree for you in your stead.

  • Ed75

    In New York Governor Cuomo couldn’t get his ridiculous abortion bill passed. So he made it point ten on a bill with nine things that benefit women, and said he wouldn’t sign for those nine without the tenth. That failed. Now, instead of passing the nine beneficial things, he says that he will wait for an election year (which shows that his purpose was not women’s benefit, but abortion expansion all along).

    The same radical abortion bill – that makes abortion a right for all nine months, and so means it has to be funded by taxpayer money, can’t be restricted by regulations like parental notification or sonograms or waiting periods, can’t disallow partial birth abortion, and puts people who pray in front of clinics in danger of arrest for denying rights – is also being discussed in California. Governor Cuomo’s bill also allows non-doctors to perform abortions.

    Governor Cuomo’s popularity has plummeted.

  • Ed75

    For Catholics this is the second Fortnight for Freedom, today until July 4th, to pray and fast to keep our religious liberty

    • J__o__h__n

      For everyone else, this isn’t news.  It is week in the news, not fortnight in the news.  

      • Ed75

        That’s funny. I might have to start my own program, this fortnight in the news.

  • 1Brett1

    Trent Franks’ bill that is designed to further undermine Roe v. Wade has been amended. While it now includes language that covers rape, it doesn’t cover the health of the pregnant woman. It also leaves the door open for a woman possibly to be humiliated and denied access to an abortion if she doesn’t have enough proper documentation proving her rape. It’s one thing to have to prove rape if one is seeking monetary assistance from the Federal Government; it’s quite another to have to prove rape to get an abortion at all (after 20 weeks). 

    This is all part of Republicans’ (what seems constant in recent years) efforts to chip away at women’s reproductive rights, including abortion. Some say the phrase “Republicans have declared a war on women”  is manufactured liberal nonsense. I say it not only is part of a larger Republican view about women’s rights and women’s roles in society that has risen to the top of Republican rhetoric and action (during important elections and now in between)  but it seems the focus on these issues (instead of issues more important to US citizens) by Republican leadership fritters away valuable time in both houses of Congress and ties up the Legislative Branch of  our government. 

    Also, speaking of Republican attitudes toward women, Rep. Marsha Blackburn (R. Tennessee) has replaced Franks to manage the debate of the bill. This is significant, and it exemplifies Republicans’ tone deafness, so to speak. Their way of being “inclusive” is to have a woman be the face of the bill instead of Frank’s. They have a history of this. Don’t change the message, change the messenger…and to Republicans this represents “change” and inclusiveness when it’s just a parlor trick. By the way, just two weeks ago, Rep. Blackburn said that equal pay doesn’t matter to women. These kinds of statements and actions by Republicans exemplify their attitudes toward women.  Those who say they agree with Republicans or say these opinions do NOT represent attempts to undermine women’s freedoms are either not paying attention or do truly have the same views about women in society. 

    • MrNutso

      What I also find disheartening is that even though Republicans know these bills will never become law they are brought to a vote  just to give new members a chance to say the voted for them.

      It’s the new post policy governance.  The policy doesn’t matter just that the correct vote was cast.

      • Don_B1

        They are solidifying their appeal to their hard-line religious right-wing fundamentalist base, which, together with the gerrymandering that has been accomplished by Republicans elected to state legislatures, mostly in off-year elections over the last 15 or more years.

        They think they came close to winning in 2012 and can close the deal in 2016 after further gains in 2014. It will take an great campaign to stop them.

    • hennorama

      Exactly when are Republicans going to “stop being the stupid party?”

  • HonestDebate1

    “In the 15 months between Zimmerman’s shooting of Trayvon Martin and the start of jury selection, NPR aired about 100 pieces dedicated to the issue. Contrast that with the number of pieces NPR aired about Kermit Gosnell in the 36 months between a federal raid on his clinic and the start of jury selection: just 3 pieces. That works out to one piece about every five days for Zimmerman and one piece about every 12 months for Gosnell.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/john-williams/2013/06/19/npr-priorities-far-more-coverage-death-one-black-teen-non-black-death

    Your tax dollars at work.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      This “Gosnell-the-story is a gold mine for the political right” is bullflop. No wonder you pimp it.

      Let’s cover Gosnell. Let’s show the world what happens when the Talibangelicals force women to jump through hoops for a legal medical procedure.

      But let’s not let Howard Kurtz decide what the “center” is on it.

      • HonestDebate1

        No one cares when black kids are murdered by a black guy, at least at NPR. My guess is if Gosnell had murdered Trayvon and Zimmerman had murdered all those kids the coverage would have been flipped.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Your guess isn’t worth the pixels its printed on.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Looks like you touched a nerve.  Liberals can’t handle the TRUTH of media bias when called out.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Another rightie, another fantasy about media crit tripped up on the imbalance between journalism and advocacy media.

        • hennorama

          From the Gregg Smith response-O-Matic: [That's sick]

        • 1Brett1

          Well, as long as you are fantasizing about how the world would be different if…

          Let’s say Trayvon Martin had had the gun and had pursued Zimmerman (even after police dispatchers had told him not to). Let’s say Zimmerman was the one who was out walking around the neighborhood, returning from a convenience store with a bottle of ice tea and a bag of Skittles. Let’s say Trayvon Martin had pulled the gun on Zimmerman and had shot him dead. Would your opinion be flipped? My guess is that it wouldn’t, that you would then be talking about how black on white crime is out of control…it’s just a guess, though.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ve already talked about it, and it is. The numbers are shocking.

          • 1Brett1

            Totally went over your head…

            So, you’re saying that if Trayvon Martin had had the gun you’d side with Zimmerman. Being it is reversed, you side with Zimmerman. Either way, you side with Zimmerman…hmmm.

          • HonestDebate1

            I never chose sides in the Martin case. 

          • 1Brett1

            You just defend any point of view that takes sides with Zimmerman and condemn any point of view that sides with Trayvon Martin…yep, that’s not choosing sides.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, I don’t, you made that up. My comment was about the media anyway. 

            I don’t even know what the two sides are, it’s tragic all the way around. What an odd thing for you to say.

          • 1Brett1

            HD1: “why, gosh, golly, gee, I just don’t even know what the two sides are…its just tragic; I don’t have an opinion otherwise. What’s an opinion?” 

        • 1Brett1

          That’s heinous. 

  • HonestDebate1

    Another CNN reporter has moved to Fox, Howard Kurtz.

    • 1Brett1

      That’s a bit like saying a dishwasher at Denny’s has moved to working at McDonald’s.

      • HonestDebate1

        McDonalds doesn’t have dishes.

        • 1Brett1

          And Fox doesn’t have news, so there ya go…

          • HonestDebate1

            Sure they do, it’s fair, balanced and #1.

          • Steve__T

              ROTFLAMO

          • HonestDebate1

            Rolling On The Floor Laughing Ass My Off?

          • Steve__T

             Yep that’s what I did when I read your post

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then, “Laughing Ass My Off” it is.

        • Don_B1

          Exactly!

        • Steve__T

           But they do have Pans and Utensils.
           In terms of sanitization, all utensils and other equipment are cleaned
          in the back area of the kitchen in three steps – soaping, rinsing and
          sanitizing.

          http://www.mcdonaldsindia.com/mcd-kitchen.html

          • HonestDebate1

            How long have you worked there?

          • Steve__T

             Off and on over 8 yrs installing their POS and telecom equipment.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      First, “reporter”?

      Second, it’s a match made in journalism hell (and satire heaven):

      Fox News said on Thursday that it had hired Howard urtz, the reporter who for 15 years has hosted the Sunday morning media criticism program “Reliable Sources” on a rival network, CNN.

      Mr. Kurtz will take over “Fox News Watch,” the network’s media criticism program, which is broadcast on Saturday and bears some resemblance to “Reliable Sources.” Fox News said in a news release that the program would have “a new format.”

      Mr. Kurtz said in a statement: “I’m excited to be bringing my independent brand of media criticism to Fox News. I want to thank CNN for giving me such a prime opportunity over the years and was tempted to continue, but the chance to create a revamped program and establish a strong online presence was too good to pass up.”

      There are those Inbred enough to say “Removing another MiddlingMushmouthModerate from CNN makes them too left-wing at this point, dudden it?”

      Hey, James OKeefe would balance that, I guess.

      • HonestDebate1

        John Roberts, Bill Hemmer, Andrea Tantaros, Bob Beckell, Greta, the list goes on. 

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          You say John Roberts and Greta like that’s a win for the place they go to.

          More right-winger media crit fail.

          • HonestDebate1

            They still have Wolf, and they got Kiran… but still no ratings.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Ratings. Like you’re making a point by saying that.

            CNN sucks because they’re trying to be Fox News, and when given a choice, an ignorant will choose the real Fox News every time.

            Remember CNN hitching itself to the Teabaggers for the debate last year? That helped turn CNN’s reputation for journalism to shite. But they just can’t help themselves.

            Also, as the saying goes, “The average age of the Fox News viewer is dead.” Keep holding onto your delusions about “ratings” v. “demographics”, and see where that gets the right-wing advocacy media in a couple decades.

            They’ve become so intertwined with the right wing of this country they can’t escape the same “demographic death spiral” (quoting Linday Graham).

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re funny!

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            And you’re like every other rightie who doesn’t know the first thing about media crit.

          • HonestDebate1

            Kurtz went to Fox, that’s all.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Kurtz has been called “Hacktacular Howie” for a reason. Good riddance that he’s no longer pretending to be  in the middle in a place that tries to pretend they’re in th emiddle.

          • Don_B1

            The only CNN program I regularly watch is “GPS with Fareed Zakaria.”

            While not perfect, it does offer a good blend of criticism of VSP “opinion,” giving some useful insights on some difficult issues.

          • HonestDebate1

            Fareed Zarkaria advocates raising taxes on the poor as well as making 6 million of the poorest, who currently pay nothing, pay.

          • Bill_GKD

            He probably wants them to have skin in the game and to stop being a part of that mooching 47% that elected Obama.

          • HonestDebate1

            Probably.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            “VSP” meaning “Very Serious Person”, I take it? That gets a “like”.

          • John Cedar

            As long as you brought up Roberts. He is the most incompetent illogical intellectually dishonest jurist since Warren. Dd he have a lobotomy before or after he was confirmed?

            Seems we cannot attach stipulations to  AIDs funding? But we can to tax policy in Obamacare? I wonder if now that a tax and a fine are the same thing, if I can write off DEC and and DOL fines?

            Funny that the dumbest guy on the court is the most logical every time there is a ruling. Thomas for president!

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            They are referring to the news reporter not the justice.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Yeah, like the three Jason Williams (homonyms) in the NBA at once.

            Sometimes I wish one of the John Roberts would just say “call me Jack”. And since one is wearing a robe, I guess he gets “dibs” on John.

          • John Cedar

            “I was being ironic”
            ~HJS

            As proof:
            “I get all my news from Fox”
            ~me

          • J__o__h__n

            He is actually brilliant.  He voted for Obamacare but claimed the government lacked the power to do so through the commerce clause.  This ruling will probably help some faith-based group that wants to take government money with no restrictions on their speech.  He is thinking several moves ahead of windbags like Scalia or dolts like Thomas.  Roberts is the most dangerous man in America for progressives.  

          • Don_B1

            I guess you are just complaining the Chief Justice John Roberts (not the Fox News National Correspondent) is smart enough to know that being overly partisan will not bring kudos to the court and could easily help elect Democrats to the Senate to prevent fellow travelers being confirmed to the Senate and maybe help get people of the opposite convictions appointed and confirmed.

    • jimino

      Yes, Murdoch has lots of money to fund his propaganda machine.  Or did you have a different point?

  • JONBOSTON

    Tom, 

    I hope you discuss Obama’s “triumphant” visit to Europe that highlighted how much of a pathetic  and irrelevant figure our pretend president has become. Much of Berlin , like Putin and Merkel , chose to politely smile when Obama spoke and then moved on to more important things.

    PS–we’ll know that all is lost with Obama when Jack Beatty and EJ Dionne admit how incompetent this community organizer happens to be.

    • jefe68

      Yawn…. this old right wing regressive meme is getting old.

       

      • JONBOSTON

        Then make the counter-argument that Obama’s visit was fruitful and his call to disarm nuclear waepons makes alot of sense in today’s world. Better yet, that anyone ( especially Putin, the Pakistani ,  Assad, and the ayatollahs)  is even listening.

        I doubt you’re capable– you routinely have absolutely nothing to say which is why I usually ignore you.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           You know we are in trouble when Putin makes more sense on nuclear weapons than the American President.

          • Bill_GKD

            Obama really went over the line when he said “We seek the total elimination one day of nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth.”  That’s just crazy.

          • John_in_Amherst

             suggest you acquaint yourself with the facts on the effects of even a “limited” nuclear exchange.  If, for instance, India and Pakistan decide to duke it out with as few as a couple dozen nukes, the current analysis is that it would result in climate effects which would disrupt agricultural production world-wide for several years.  M.A.D. requires the exchange of just a handful of nukes, and the superpowers have thousands.  Wake the hell up!

          • jimino

            I agree that we are in trouble when fools such as yourself consider Putin to make sense on anything.

        • jefe68

          If you had a decent well thought critique of president Obama then I would not have made the comment I did. Instead you post the same tired old right wing partisan BS.

          You do this all the time. You think what you posted had any value other than giving the other right wing extremist on this forum something to like? You are very much mistaken.

          Again, yawn, you are so boring and predictable.

          • pete18

            “It is axiomatic: Arms control is impossible until it is unimportant.
            This is because arms control is an arena of competition in which
            nations negotiate only those limits that advance their interests.
            Nevertheless, Obama trotted out another golden oldie in Berlin when he
            vowed to resuscitate the cadaver of nuclear arms control with Russia.
            As though Russia’s arsenal is a pressing problem. And as though there
            is reason to think President Vladimir Putin, who calls the Soviet
            Union’s collapse “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” is interested in reducing the arsenal that is the basis of his otherwise Third World country’s claim to great-power status.”

            -George Will

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-obama-hits-a-wall-in-berlin/2013/06/20/bfff0426-d9df-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

          • JONBOSTON

            Thank you for proving me point.

          • JONBOSTON

            The problem with so many of the left wing posters  on this board ( and the left in general) is that with few exceptions, they rarely ever respond to the points raised by those they describe as “right wing”. Instead, as in the case of jefe68,  they attack the poster, rather than present then persuasive counter-arguments. 

            I’ll ask jefe68 again, dispute what I’ve said about Obama’s trip overseas. Show us how smart you are.

          • Bill_GKD

            The problem with arguing with those on the right is that so many of them will never admit when they’re wrong.  Look at the ones here who will stick to points and positions which lack facts or evidence, and who will often repeat such positions over and over again.  There’s no point in trying to engage people in a debate when it is impossible to alter the opponent’s position with facts.  Maybe many on “the left” here are just too fed up with that sort of crap and have given up.

          • JONBOSTON

            There’s not a single point raised in your comments that addresses the point I raised–that Obama has become an irrelevancy on the world stage. 

            Just think about what you’ve written and how you conveniently avoid debating the comments I’ve made. It’s ironic how you assume you’re correct  and I’m wrong yet you fail to offer anything in support of your beliefs , let alone assert “facts or evidence”. Again it’s consistent with what I’ve said throughout- left wing ideologues are incapable of engaging in a true debate of ideas.

          • Bill_GKD

            Thanks for your screed in response to my comment.  Maybe one could debate conservatives on ideas if they could ever form any.  Facts and evidence are both something woefully absent on the right, which replaced reason with blind faith in the divine, the dollar and the almighty markets long ago.

          • JONBOSTON

            Facts and evidence– just open your freaken eyes and witness the laughingstock that Obama has become as we “hunt” down Snowdenand plead with the Chinese, Russians,Cubans, Ecuadorians, etc.

          • Bill_GKD

            So, the evidence that Obama is a laughing stock is that countries with a history of hostility towards us, a history of spying on us or a willingness to harbor people who leak information are not willing to extradite to us a person who exposed a bunch of government secrets?  I don’t see that as a compelling argument.  If those nations are willing to thumb their noses at us, and Cuba has been doing that for over 50 years, then what is the President to do?  Abduct the guy?  I mean we could, but I don’t like that as an option.

          • jefe68

            You did not make any points.
            Again typical, you try to turn this around to be about me.
            It’s not, it’s about the puerile comment you originally made.

            Show you how smart I am? What are you 12 years old?

          • JONBOSTON

            Like I said –you keep making my point. You’re embarrassing yourself and you’re to obtuse too realize it..

        • John_in_Amherst

           you imply that a GOP stooge for Big Business would have done better?  How about sending Shrub back to look Putin in the eyes again and see into his soul?  Now THAT was really helpful… You really think the world couldn’t reduce the number of nukes to a level that would wipe out all life on the planet just a few times over?  The GOP platitudes about compassion being an inhibitor to progress and the need for liberals to step aside and just let the Military Industrial Complex and Multinational Corporations run the show are somewhere between repugnant and delusional.

          • JONBOSTON

            You really need to move out of Amherst and join the real world. The Peace Now protest movement was laughed out of existence in the 80′s after promoting the nuclear freeze movement. The Soviets just laughed   and regarded these protestors ( in the words of Joe Stalin) as “useful idiots”. 

          • John_in_Amherst

            ooo…hell of a snappy retort.  You must live in some real manly suburb with a well stocked bomb shelter and a closet full of guns & ammo.    glad you and Joe see eye to eye.  Assume you regard Ike as a woosie peacenik too, for his farewell address.  As long as we’re on the topic of what the Soviet era leaders thought of nuclear war, I’ll go with Kruschev’s quote:  The survivors will envy the dead.

          • JONBOSTON

             You sound like one of those over-the-hill 60′s  protestor-types that on weekends in college towns like Amherst stand around town squares with their peace now signs, etc and do their best impression of a “useful idiot” and convinced of their moral superiority. If they ever achieve anything noteworthy, I’d like to know.

            By the way, liberals always talk up stereotyping, profiling etc. yet you engage in it. I don’t own a gun or have a bomb shelter nor do I oppose gun control.

          • John_in_Amherst

             oooo another snappy retort

          • JONBOSTON

            I guess I got it right.

          • John_in_Amherst

            hardly

          • John_in_Amherst

             based on how long it took you to think up a reply, the branch of the ZOG that monitors activities of right wing a-holes is going to downgrade your name on the watch list

        • jimino

          “We seek the total elimination one day of nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth.”
          Ronald Reagan, Inaugural Address, 1985

          “My central arms control objective has been to reduce substantially, and
          ultimately to eliminate, nuclear weapons and rid the world of the
          nuclear threat. The prevention of the spread of nuclear explosives to
          additional countries is an indispensable part of our efforts to meet
          this objective.  I intend to continue my pursuit of this goal with
          untiring determination and a profound sense of personal commitment.”
          Ronald Reagan, March 25, 1988  Message to Congress on NPT

          “A nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought. The only value in
          our two nations possessing nuclear weapons is to make sure they will
          never be used. But then would it not be better to do away with them
          entirely?”
          Ronald Reagan, 1984 State of the Union

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      You forgot to make some lame-ass joke about the President standing in front of real columns instead of million dollar replicas (a la the Denver convention, 2008).

      • HonestDebate1

        Obama also went to Belfast and insulted Catholics, implying their schools were divisive. That’s rich coming from a guy who went to a Muslim school.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          No quote? Yeah, I’ll wait for independent confirmation when you say water is wet.

          • HonestDebate1

            Which sources do you trust?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            You’ve got a track record here. I’d say I’ve got a long wait.

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s true I sometimes forget how much of a bubble you ideologues live in. I usually assume you know a little bit about the news of the day. 

            Which news sources have let you down this time?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            I’ll just make my blanket guess: Any one you quote.

            For me, it’s like betting on gravity.

          • pete18

            What’s like betting on gravity is that TF will never answer that question, because he can’t. All he can do is snark.

        • 1Brett1

          AND, he didn’t even bow while insulting them!!?!?!?!…yet, he bows to Muslim extremists everyday! Damn you, secret Muslim Obama, with your prayer mats all over the Oval Office pointing to Mecca!

          • HonestDebate1

            He’s not a Muslim, how many times mud I tell you?

        • jimino

          When you were a child did you go to a Protestant school or a Catholic school?

          • HonestDebate1

            A madrassa, why?

          • jimino

            I was hoping to engage you in a rational manner but see that is of no interest to you today so I will just say that, wherever it was, they did a piss-poor job.

          • HonestDebate1

            No you were trying to bait me. My answer was appropriate and if you think about it, I was buttressing my point. I chose my words carefully.

            I actually appreciate that you seem to know 
            what I was talking about, unlike the others who just didn’t believe me. My answer was rational in that it put the focus right where I intended it to be.

          • 1Brett1

            I knew you hated yourself.

    • OnPointComments

      MSNBC’s Chris Matthews, chief cheerleader for Barack Obama, said that President Obama’s Berlin speech was lousy because of the sun.  This was a startling admission coming from Chris “I’ve got a thrill up my leg” Matthews who previously believed that Obama’s aura outshone even the sun.

    • jimino

      On the bright side, at least he can travel to Europe without fear of arrest which is not the case for “W” and his faithful sidekick Cheney.

      • JONBOSTON

        Your comment says more about the left wing idiots in Europe than about Bush and Cheney. Funny, Obama maintains Gitmo and just about everything Bush did with the exception of waterboarding  (and gets a Nobel peace prize ) but the morons in Europe say/do nothing. Rational people can only laugh and shake their head! I guess waterboarding 3 terrorists to get actionable intelligence is far worse than blowing up  hundreds ( if not thousands) of terrorists to smithereens from drone strikes, along with innocent bystanders, than waterboarding the likes of Khalid Sheik Mohammed.  

        Please help me understand the logic!

        • jimino

          You won’t find me defending Obama, who I see as a continuation of “W” in most important respects.

          As far as worrying about logic, you claim that our president being shunned by Europeans is important, then identify them as idiots whose views are not worthy of any respect.  Now THAT’S illogical. 

          • JONBOSTON

            Your point makes sense only if one assumes that those who wished to prosecute Bush/Cheney were the ones who failed to show up for Obama in Berlin.  As it happens , the effort to criminalize differences with Bush was principally driven by the Belgians, who insanely believed they their courts had personal jurisdiction over foreigners for anything they deemed a “war crime ” and the Italians, whose semi-corrupt legal system fell prey to a radical left wing judge in milan who couldn’t distinguish between a policy difference and a criminal act. He was subsequently disbarred…

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rod-Deward/770560716 Rod Deward

            LOL…touche,Jimino…I think the USA gov’t is going to have to get used to being a smaller player on the world stage. Might even be a good thing since the intervention strategy is ruinous to the economy and the soul. Ask Rome.

  • alsordi

    Looks like the QE stock-pumping party is near an end.  And if the USA cannot hold on to its colonial possessions and military bases they will not longer be able to enforce the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. 
    And then comes inflation and high interest rates, in an economy that hasn’t really improved.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      no worries as long as oil and illegal drugs and human trafficking are all traded in dollars we have some stability to our currency

    • Don_B1

      While the FOMC should feel appropriately kicked in the head by the market reaction to their foolishness, it is a foolishness that is strongly embraced by the political VSPs, particularly the Republican Party and its “Tea Party” members. Thus they are unlikely to make public apologies and without that they may have committed permanent harm to any quicker recovery from the Lesser Depression the country (and world) is currently in.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Bryan Monroe: “The president has dropped a few points…”

    Except in polls where Obama job approval holds steady.

    If making lots of hay over one poll is what Politico (say) does, and Nate Silver aggregates lots of polls over time, I got my bet about what a good correspondent does.

  • creaker

    I don’t see what the issue is tightening the border for immigrants – they should be able to be just as successful as they’ve been about drugs.

  • OMA_OPINES

    If the huge drop in the stock market after “good”news about the economy was not enough, the defeat of the Farm Bill and most other news of the week just adds to the evidence that the wealthiest in this world care only about maintaining their personal wealth and preventing anyone else from moving “up” at all. Gandhi’s 2nd of “7 Social Sins” is “Weath without Work”.Manipulating money is NOT work and indicates an “entitlement” attitude as strong as any that COnservatives rail against in any other group.

  • hennorama

    Has anyone else noticed the relatively recent phenomenon of pundits beginning their responses with “Look …”? It has a confrontational, coarse, and slightly rude sound to my ear, and seems strange as a technique in this sort of structured conversation. After all, the host is eliciting a direct response from the guest, often by name. It’s not as if the guest needs the extra emphasis of “Look …”

    Add it to the list of phrases I’d like to see abandoned, along with “It is what it is” and “Very unique”.

    • 1Brett1

      Yeah, something is either unique or not unique; it isn’t “very unique”!

      I’m surprised the HornyMasterdeBaiting1 doesn’t begin his comments with “Look…”

    • Steve__T

       They want to sound like Mr. Obama. He says it a lot, but not it the type of setting you described. I guess when they listen to him over and over and over trying to break apart his speeches, it gets stuck. then becomes the first thing that comes out their mouths.

      • hennorama

        Steve__T – an interesting point, and one which I hadn’t considered.

    • brettearle

      This “Look” business, at the beginning of a pundit’s comment, is often nothing more than….

      …..the word being a euphemism, by the speaker, for expressing self-righteous annoyance with somebody else, for not agreeing with that speaker.

      Basically, on a subtle level, it could even be a way to mask the speaker’s own possible participation in political polarization–and thus be labeled with a stigma that you are, indeed, part of the Problem.

      That’s how far the dysfunction can sometimes carry, I believe.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      whenever I do my oboma impression I start almost every phrase with “look”. I would like to see an end to “just sayin”

  • edward burns

    Your guests seem to bemoan the fact that Obama lacks influence over Europe, but maybe it’s a good thing. It seems to be a product of the fact that the administration has been less than willing to engage in conflicts in Syria, but is that such a bad thing? After several decades of administrations taking on any fight they could find, it’s refreshing to see an administration that is more circumspect. If some loss of influence is the cost, so be it.

    • HonestDebate1

      Merkel told him to pound sand years ago.

      • 1Brett1

        So, is the quote from Merkel actually, “go pound sand, you, Obama, you!!!” Did she pound her fist too? or did she just shake her fist at a large picture of Obama?

        • HonestDebate1

          I did not use quotation marks. Why do you think Germany is doing better than the rest of Europe?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Florida is a funny place. Not “haha” but “strange”.

    It’s the only state in the country in which a simple majority of the jury—a vote of 7 to 5—can send a man or woman to the electric chair or lethal injection. Every other state but one requires a unanimous vote.

    Another huge problem in Florida: the low quality of defense lawyers, especially at trial.

    (This act) sets a deadline of 30 days for the governor to sign a death warrant…after at least one round of state and federal appeals, and after a review by the governor for clemency.
    And once the governor signs the warrant, the Timely Justice Act says the execution must occur within 180 days.

    Now Florida takes the lead in Orwell-that-ends-well language.

    The “Timely Justice Act” turns the death sentence, the one government wrong which cannot be put right, into a “Beat the Clock” game.

    The usual suspects and the usual victims are involved here.

  • Ed75

    A Muslim speaker said that three years ago -back the moderate elements, same thing happened in Egypt – we didn’t do it, now what to do?

    • J__o__h__n

      The moderate elements are small and don’t represent the majority.  Twittering student protesters don’t exist in enough numbers to withstand the Islamists who were ready to fill the power gap. 

      • Ed75

        That makes sense. I understand that many people in the Middle East are asking that we not arm the rebels now either.

      • Don_B1

        I don’t think it is so much that the moderate elements are small, but that they are multiple and have not learned how to work together. If they could learn how to appeal to the populace with a joint program, particularly now that the Muslim Brotherhood is not delivering on economic growth, they could easily win the next election.

        However, that is a big moat to leap for the groups of moderates, and the current government is throwing up every roadblock it can think of (sorry about the mixed metaphors).

  • Scott B

    The member of Congress talking about the Great Wall of China is another prime example of Republicans denying fact and history (thank you Norm Ornstein). That wall took over 2000 years to build it and it didn’t keep anyone out. Nor did Hadrian’s Wall, in Scotland, keep the Scot Celts penned up, or the Romans and Celts from mingling business-wise nor genetically.

    • John Cedar

      It must of kept at least one person out. Who told you it didn’t? BTW…we have some new construction techniques since the great wall was built.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        no one should downplay the importance of the advent of pointy wires

        • madnomad554

           Concertina wire disguised as tumble weeds

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            oh is that the latest stealth razor wire? I bet it cost a billion or two to develop we might as well use it. I bet the Chinese have already copied it

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mathias-Detamore/12926446 Mathias Detamore

    And in other news… How about a full fledged and thoughtful apology from Exodus International? Accepting its role in the harm it has caused to the LGBTQ community over the past 40 years or better is rather amazing!

    • donniethebrasco

       What about the Ps.  It should be LBGTAP.

      Paedophiles, polyamorous, and the polygamists.

      • Bill_GKD

        Is that what the P in GOP stands for?  Thanks for the heads up.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kyle.rose Kyle Rose

    Wait… so the caller is saying that it undermines our democracy that a single elected official can’t unilaterally push any policy change he wants into law? Lolwut?

  • donniethebrasco

    Obama appears weak because he is weak.

    He is a one-trick pony.  If it is not the same speech he gives all the time, he looks like a deer in the headlights.

    He runs away from hard issues.  He doesn’t talk to the opposition.  All he had left was the liberal press.  After spying on them and calling them criminals, he lost them too.

    The only people that support him are college professors, illegal immigrants, and incarcerated criminals.

    • 1Brett1

      I swear, that girlie-man Obama, running away from issues like a little girl, with his intellectualzz, foreignerzz and jailbirdzz! 

      • 1Brett1

        By the way, HornyforMasterdeBaiting1, I was mocking DtheB’s comment…Again, your “like” shows that you don’t understand such things in your humorless, bigoted world.

        Here’s a question you might like, there, MasterbeBaiterer, “if you and Obama were in a wrastlin’ (isn’t that how they say it in hill country where you live?) match, who would win? Would you kick his ass? Come on, now, you know you delight in this fantasy image…Say it! Say it! Say it! You afraid to say it?!?! Say, “why, I’d kick that secret Muslim from here to Kenya!”

        • Bill_GKD

          I think that I’d rather be a cunning linguist than a master debater.

    • jefe68

      A tad puerile methinks. 

    • brettearle

      That, of course, explains why he was elected twice by the Electorate.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Lots of right-wingers and their attendant advocacy media are now having fits about the stuff a conservative president and conservative Senate and conservative House put through in 2006.

    Talk about your delayed reaction. Can’t anyone in the media wonder out loud how that happened?

    • jimino

      They have met the enemy, and are shocked to discover that it is them.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      It’s true. And if you look at actions vs packaging, this president is more conservative than that president!

  • madnomad554

    Regarding the US/Mexican border…I have strong sentiment with those who want the illegal crossings to stop. However, for those who propose to construct a wall and believe that will solve the problem, should look to Cuba. Cuban’s have no issues with crossing 70 miles of shark infested open ocean. A wall might temporarily slow the influx, but then how is the shore line of the west coast and the Gulf of Mexico going to be secured? I’m sure a small percentage of illegal Mexicans are already entering the US via these two shorelines.

    How about constructing an Autobahn style freeway along the southern border, with 6 lanes in both directions and no posted speed limit and a bullet train in the middle. Texas can supply the gasoline for free, since they already raised their speed limit to 80 MPH.

    • hennorama

      Ask any German defending the Atlantic Wall coastal defenses In June 1944 how well fixed defensive positions work.

      Walls work as a deterrent to the casual border crosser, but are not unbreachable by those determined to get over, under, through, or around them. No border is 100% secure.

      Period.

      The US has land and water boundaries with Canada and Mexico that are a combined 7,458 miles in length. We also have “general coastlines” totaling 12,479 miles. These figures total 19,937 miles, which is equivalent to 80% of the equatorial circumference of the Earth.

      Source:http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21729.pdf

      • pete18

        The Germans were facing one of the largest armed flotillas in history and didn’t have a functioning air force . I think Mexican immigrants will not be quite as well armed.

        The goal isn’t 100% border security, it’s to make the border very difficult to get across. Right now it is porous.

        • hennorama

          pete18 TY for your response. I respect your views.

          Indeed, the Atlantic Wall is not the same as the US border, and my use of it as an example was for effect.

          Still, there is no denying that walls and fences are not impenetrable. See the Romans and Hadrian’s Wall, the Chinese and the Great Wall, and the Soviets and the Iron Curtain, especially the Berlin Wall.

          Walls and fences simply become targets for the determined, and require enormous expenditures of resources to defend. They are only as good as those tending them, and give a false sense of security.

          For some perspective, see the following:

          http://www.kcet.org/arts/artbound/counties/san-diego/border-walls-history.html

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-gunther/build-the-danged-fence-hi_b_1071912.html

          • madnomad554

            What’s really sad about this illegal immigration conundrum, is that most of the Americans who don’t won’t the illegals here, aren’t willing to do the work these illegals are coming here to do. At 44, I’ve never had a job that wasn’t centered around physical labor. I wouldn’t last a week behind a desk.

            But those same finger pointing Americans don’t seem to complain when they bite into that juicy strawberry. I imagine if more US citizens were sweating in the crop fields, that might do its part to reduce the illegal crossings. Take away the very jobs their coming here for. However, about the only way most Americans are ever gonna step into a crop field at harvest time, is when doughnuts grow on vines    

      • brettearle

        Not to mention, henn–and I think you were, no doubt, echoing this by implication–the symbol of a
        WALL implies…..

        Man’s alienation to man
        Excessive fear
        Xenophobia
        Mistrust between countries

        Not that there aren’t arguments for Walls.

        But, ultimately, implications, listed above, come with the `territory’, so to speak.

        • hennorama

          bretterle – indeed, and well said.

          BTW, what has happened to “don’t fence me in” as part of the American ethos?

          • brettearle

             Bad neighbors make good fences.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        the Chinese built a wall too, it was about as good a wall as you can build, the Mongols went around it

        • hennorama

          Futo Buddy – TY for your response.

          Indeed, and I mentioned the Great Wall in subsequent posts.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            I feel the whole security apparatus we have built is a modern great wall type effort

    • OnPointComments

      Your proposed solution might exacerbate this problem:
       
      “Drunk on amnesty”
       http://www.humanevents.com/2013/06/21/drunk-on-amnesty/ 
       
      Excerpt:
      The end result is that illegal aliens are responsible for a wildly disproportional number of DUI arrests as well DUI-related crashes, hit-and-runs and fatalities. So much so that a special exception has been added to an already generous amnesty bill to keep widespread DUI arrests from gumming up the illegals’ legalization process.
       
      I’m not sure I’d wanted them driving on the Texas Autobahn, whether legal or illegal.

      • madnomad554

        The Autobahn proposal was intended to read with a bit of humor.

        I am prior rescue squad, about four years from 97′ thru 01′. This was Putnam county Tenn, along I-40. We worked copious amounts of car crashes that were DUI related and many did include illegals. One of the worst crashes I ever worked, was a Penske box truck headed for NY. There were 21 illegals, 3 in the cab and the remaining 18 were in the box. The truck crossed the medium and slammed head on into a cliff face. The impact pinned the front three, breaking all six of their legs. Five in the box died, as they were of course unrestrained and crushed one another upon impact.

        It was a problem then and it remains one today.  

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      I think the Texans might go for it, most already have brush guards. if we build too good a wall they wont be able to leave and then we would not be in balance right now with them coming a going. a wall could also be used to keep us in

  • Ed75

    God is not going to put up with a world dedicated to abortion and same sex marriage. Not going to happen. He might even allow the world to fall into war to avoid it, this is what we might be seeing in Syria.

    • Bill_GKD

      If only we could have stopped gay marriage, then we wouldn’t have this war in Syria.  Now, if only we could drive the gays out of San Francisco, then the earthquakes would stop.

      • Ed75

        It’s not what individual people do, but it’s when governments support things as policy, as our country is more and more doing in regard to abortion, instead of moving in the other direction.

        • Bill_GKD

          Seeing as how abortion numbers and rates have been falling for some time, and also given that there are many attempts by conservatives in this country to regulate and dominate the bodies of women, I think that it would be easier to make a case that the war in Syria is god’s punishment for the abortion crackdown.

    • 1Brett1

      God says, “yeah, right, Ed!!! You understand!! Instead of creating humans to directly watch over and CONTROL so I can have a world filled with the morality I demand, I decided to go with free will and just destroy humans later if they made choices I didn’t like! Violence to stop immorality rules!! AND, it’s FUN!!!”

      • Steve__T

         Why do you bother.

      • Ed75

        That does sound like fun. But I think a better way to see it is that God made us free, and then said ‘I put before you life and death, choose life’. He’s not trying to punish us, but to plead with us to choose life and to walk in his ways so that we can live in communion with him.

    • jefe68

      Oy vay.

      • brettearle

        Ditto.

        [not as in Limbaugh or the movie "Ghost"]

    • brettearle

      You are Reverend Falwell resurrected.

      Once again, we are seeing your extreme dogma and your relentless obsession, permeate any possible dialogue, whatsoever, on any given topic, on this thread.

      If there’s a thunder and lightning storm, somehow it’s
      related to Roe v Wade.

      If they’re out of milk, at the grocer’s, it means that a first semester pregnancy has been squelched.

      Congratulations on lowering the bar–on this Web site–any chance you get.

      You refuse to wait until the Abortion issue comes up.

      You simply pollute all other discussion–whether it’s about NASA’s future plans or NSA’s future plans–with your embarrassing Monomania.

      My respect for you rises, by the moment.

      • HonestDebate1

        It’s ironic that you mention Falwell. Who did more for young pregnant single women than him?

        • brettearle

          I was referring to his culturally, and politically bigoted quote, about 9/11.

          So, yes, it is his own notorious quote that shores up his pathetic hypocrisy.

          Not to mention the same-sex aspect of Ed75′s and Falwell’s comments….which are part of this equation, as well.

          If Falwell, in your estimation, did a great deal for young pregnant single women, did Falwell attempt to de-program gay men and women?

          • HonestDebate1

            He gave let them live on campus for free and paid their tuition. That’s very generous.

      • Ed75

        Abortion ruins everything it touches. Even political discussion lists.

    • jimino

      Did God allow/put up with all the wars and misery that happened before Roe v Wade was decided and same-sex marriage was permitted because God knew they were coming down the pike?   Could you please explain how all this plays out in your view of how the world works?

      • TomK_in_Boston

        It’s OK to kill young men, especially if they disagree with your religion or ideology. It’s an abomination to kill a newly fertilized egg with less function than an amoeba.

      • Ed75

        This has happened in the past: whenever a country has turned to evil and immorality, it has eventually faced disaster. It took a war to end slavery in the U.S., it took a world war to destroy fascism. We could repent of abortion and change, but we seem to be moving in the other direction.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      If God is Gay you better watch out.

      • 1Brett1

        Blasphemy!!!

        • 1Brett1

          HonestDebatoringerizer “liked” this (I was joking HD1, you bigot!)

      • Ed75

        If he is, I’m in deep weeds. For now my only concern is the U.S. government.

    • J__o__h__n

      No natural disasters this week?  Is he on vacation?  

    • tbphkm33

      Ah, and here we hear voices from the American Taliban. 

      • Ed75

        The Taliban is a radical group within Islam, really more an ideology than a religion. St. John gives us the criterion for religion – ‘If a man says that he loves God, but hates his neighbor, he is a liar’ (paraphrase). As a Catholic I am protesting the killing of other people, the Taliban is killing other people.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1091744903 Tracy Estabrook Boal

    Not specifically on topic, but I was listening to some archived shows yesterday, and I was thinking that On Point REALLY should do a follow-up show to the Oct 2010 show about Britain’s ‘austerity experiment.’ It was supposedly a 5-year plan, and I think Osborne is still ‘all in’, even though Britain has now experienced a triple-dip recession. Do Osborne et al. anticipate a strong recovery in the next 2 years? Where do things stand? What can we learn as we (yet again) look forward to debating deficit reduction in this country?

    You should try to book the same guests for a follow up. On Point does not, in my opinion, do enough follow-ups on topics of this type.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Good point. Actually the media are terrible about followup, which allows those who are always wrong to always be respected. In the big picture, we’ve been following voodoo econ since 1980, the heritage and cato types have been saying how good it wd be for the middle class via trickle down, the middle class has been hammered, and the heritage and cato types never lose any credibility in the eyes of the media. It’s unbelievable.

      Here’s what heritage said about the bush tax cuts and job creation, LOL. Why should we ever listen to them? You couldn’t be much more wrong. However, they keep spewing their nonsense and get great respect, while they claim the ARRA was a “failure”, despite the CBO and data indicating that it turned the bush crash around, because Obama made a wrong prediction about unemployment.

      http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2012/11/26/rendered/3c98750cfb0b1261f7710b0137188d95_400x320.jpg

    • WorriedfortheCountry
      • OnPointComments

        Austerity is a myth throughout Europe.
         
        ” ‘AUSTERITY’ TO BLAME? BUT WHERE’S THE AUSTERITY?”
         http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2013/05/26/austerity-to-blame-but-wheres-the-austerity/ 
         
        Excerpt:
        The official figures show that PIIGS governments embarked on massive spending sprees between 2000 and 2008. During this period, their combined general government expenditures rose from 775 billion Euros to 1.3 trillion – a 75 percent increase.  Then in 2008, the financial crisis hit.  Between the onset of the crisis in 2008 and 2011, PIIGS government spending increased by six percent from an already high plateau. Eurostat’s projections (which make the unlikely assumption that the PIIGS will honor the fiscal discipline promised their creditors) still show the PIIGS spending more in 2014 than at the end of their spending binge in 2008.  As Erber wryly notes: “Austerity is everywhere but in the statistics.”

        • TomK_in_Boston

          Austerity? What austerity? Nope, don’t see any austerity here.

          http://www.frankbuijs.com/wp-content/uploads/See-no-evil-hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil.jpg

          • OnPointComments

            I guess austerity is in the eye of the beholder.  Just as spending more this year than last year can be a “spending cut,”  then not spending every dollar (or Euro) that can be imagined, even if spending is more than the preceding years, is austerity.  Slavery is freedom.  War is peace.  Ignorance is strength.  It’s not 2013, it’s 1984.

  • Steve__T

    I and many others are now known as none by Disqus if you like a post, I have changed my Avatar to effect that I will be known by it.
    Edit: fixed it through my Disqus profile.

  • OnPointComments

    “Barack Obama says the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ‘is transparent’ ”
     http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-foreign-intelligence-surveillanc/ 
     
    Rating:  Pants on Fire
     
    “We don’t doubt that there are good reasons for secrecy at the court, but if you’re going to operate a mostly secret court, you also don’t get to crow about how “transparent” it is. The president can’t have his cake and eat it, too. We rate his claim Pants on Fire.”

    • Bill_GKD

      Transparent wasn’t the right word to be sure.  I think that what he was after was that there is a process and oversight, as opposed to Bush’s warrantless wiretapping program, which had no judicial oversight.

      • HonestDebate1

        You’ve got it backwards

        • Bill_GKD

          No, I don’t.  The Bush admin said that they didn’t need warrants, and this recently revealed program appears to have started under Bush and has gone through the FISA court.

          • HonestDebate1

            There WAS Judicial Oversight. They had to get a warrant, just after the fact. If they met strict criteria they could be forgiven. Obama took the same law and exploited Section 215. There has been a 1000% increase in data request.

          • Bill_GKD

            No, there was not.  You’ve got it wrong.  AG Gonzalez said that they did not need warrants for some of their actions, so they were not going to seek after the fact warrants for some of their activities.

          • HonestDebate1

            I’m talking about wiretapping not “some of their actions”.

          • Bill_GKD

            So am I.  Specifically their “terrorist surveillance program”, which they said didn’t need to go through the FISA court.  Perhaps you remember that little NSA activity that the Bush admin claimed did not require judicial oversight, even if intercepting communications of American citizens.

          • HonestDebate1

            Alrighty then.

          • Bill_GKD

            Good, then you’re agreeing that the Bush administration spied on Americans without any manner of judicial oversight, including warrants?

      • OnPointComments

        Why would anyone give any credence to this so-called “oversight”?  Eric Holder admitted that although the warrant for Fox reporter James Rosen named Rosen as a criminal co-conspirator, DOJ never had any intention of pursuing the prosecution of Rosen.  If the spurious charges against Rosen were made simply so that DOJ could get the warrant, why should anyone believe that something similar won’t happen when DOJ wants to peruse the data held by NSA?  They tell us that no one looks at the data without a warrant, but apparently this didn’t stop Edward Snowden.

        • Bill_GKD

          Do you have a quote for Holder on that?  Holder did say something like they weren’t going to go after reporters for publishing links, but wasn’t the charge against Rosen that he solicited his source for the information, so he was actively attempting to acquire it rather than reporting or publishing that which was brought to him.

          • OnPointComments

            “ERIC HOLDER ON FOX NEWS’S JAMES ROSEN: WEASELLY GARBAGE”
             http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/20/eric-holder-on-fox-newss-james-rosen-weaselly-garbage/ 
             
            Eric Holder:  “[I]n the course of the ongoing investigation into the unauthorized disclosure of classified information that appeared in a news article in June 2009, the Department, with my approval, sought a search warrant for a reporter’s e-mails from an internet service provider. In order to proceed under the Privacy Protection Act, the government was required to establish that there was probable cause to believe that the reporter had committed or was committing a criminal offense to which the needed materials related…. As explained in our prior letters, the government’s decision to seek this SEARCH WARRANT WAS AN INVESTIGATIVE STEP, and AT NO TIME DURING THIS MATTER HAVE PROSECUTORS SOUGHT APPROVAL FROM ME TO BRING CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THE REPORTER.” [emphasis added]
             
            Of course Holder had to make the preceding assertion, otherwise his testimony before Congress was perjury.

          • Bill_GKD

            So they obtained a warrant, yet did not seek to charge.  How is that any different for what may occur in any number of criminal investigations of anyone suspected in being involved in a crime.  DOJ not choosing to charge does not mean that there was not cause to pursue a warrant.

          • OnPointComments

            “…with regard to potential prosecution of the press for the disclosure of material, that is not something that I have ever been involved, heard of, or would think would be a wise policy.” –Eric Holder, May 15, 2013
             
            If the potential prosecution of the press never existed, then why the warrant for Rosen?  Back to my original premise:  DOJ said whatever it took to get the warrant it wanted, something that I believe DOJ would have no qualms about doing again. 

          • Bill_GKD

            “potential prosecution of the press for the disclosure of material”.  Again, wasn’t the charge against Rosen not that he was reporting or disclosing, but that he was soliciting his contact for classified information, making him not merely a reporter, but someone seeking to obtain the information.  Believe whatever you want about the DOJ.  Did you believe those same things about the Bush DOJ, or have you merely become concerned since Obama took over, as many on what on might generally call “the right”, which is where I perceive you to be politically, have?

          • OnPointComments

            Eric Holder:  “I do not agree that characterizations establishing probable cause for a search warrant for materials from a member of the news media during an ongoing investigation constitute an intent to prosecute that member of the news media.”
             
            Translation:  I’ll say whatever it takes to get the warrants I want.

    • hennorama

      OPC – The recently exposed NSA programs are “transparent” only to the extent that all three branches of our government have had access to and input about them. They are subject to judicial, legislative, and executive review and oversight.

      Obviously, an intelligence gathering program is by design going to be as secret as possible to the general public, or its usefulness becomes limited.

      That anyone is surprised that such programs exist is the real shocker.

      • OnPointComments

        I agree with Politifact’s “Pants On Fire” rating, and with Bunting’s quote “A court system that has proceedings that are secret and makes secret rulings that are often based on secret interpretations of law cannot fit my definition of the word ‘transparent.’ “.

        • hennorama

          OPC – I agree. Of course, that’s the point of intelligence gathering programs – to be as secret as possible in order to be effective.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            secret courts are not accountable. secret laws are not american

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      I am starting to think he has “transparent” mixed up with “opaque”

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Does anyone else find it humorous that the liberal media and Democrats are now giving advice to the GOP to “help” them?

    Now we are supposed to believe that these Democrats are concerned with the health of the Republican party? LOL!!

    The sad thing is some members of the GOP [eg, Kelly Ayotte]  are falling into this obvious trap.

    • 1Brett1

      Damn, Worried, you’ve caught on!!! Our diabolical plan has been revealed!!!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         I wasn’t referring to YOU.  I really believed YOU wanted to help the GOP and you were losing sleep every night worrying about the GOP’s future.

          But now that you’ve admitted to be part of the cabal out to destroy the GOP I just don’t know what to think anymore.  Oh my.

        • 1Brett1

          Can you do me a favor and teach both Futo Buddy and HonestDebate1 about sarcasm, satire, irony, parody, and mockery, Worried? They really need your help!

          • HonestDebate1

            I know snotty-assed snark when I see it. Call it what you want.

          • 1Brett1

            The point was that Worried has a sense of humor. And, he used sarcasm effectively; his comment was a fine example. He didn’t actually mean I was at one point trying to help the GOP and that I was losing sleep worrying about the GOP’s future; he was joking. Don’t get upset at Worried for using humor in a sophisticated manner; it was just a joke. You guys have got to stick together, you know. Don’t fault him because he understands humor that simply eludes you. Why, you’re a libertarian, after all. You have the freedom to not understand all kinds of things, HD. 

          • HonestDebate1

            You just think you’re a funny. You wouldn’t know sarcasm if it “liked” you.

            I’m not a libertarian, they have a wacky stance on foreign policy.

          • 1Brett1

            Ah, so a Republican on foreign policy and a libertarian on domestic policy. Got it.

            P.S.-Don’t tell me what I think.

    • hennorama

      WftC – anyone who cares for government with some semblance of consensus cares about the health of the opposition party, especially in a two-party system.

      Policies and arguments are improved and strengthened when they have to respond and adjust via criticism, and having a weak opposition party makes such improvements less likely. Without competition and contention provided by the opposition, governments tend to go to extremes. This is seldom helpful to those being governed.

      We need healthy and reasonable political parties, not extremists.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        LOL!!!

        I live in Massachusetts — a true one party state.  I will agree with you that the current state of affairs in MA is unhealthy but NO Democrats in the state are interested in giving up power .  As expected they use every tool possible (eg, gerrymandering) to keep that power. This is isn’t surprising since no politicians willing give up power.

        It would help if the Boston Globe saw your wisdom and supported a strong second party in the state.  But alas they appear quite happy with the status quo.

        Some day the sheeple will wake up.  MA voters are usually rational when they vote on direct issues like Prop 2 1/2 and the income tax rollback so there is hope.

        Here is what we we got just this week from our one party system.  They voted to abandon Romneycare (which was covering 98.5% of the citizens) to move to Obamacare even though it will cost the state $1.8B.  Clearly they are doing this to support the national party instead of what is best for the citizens of the Commonwealth.

        • hennorama

          WftC – TY for your response. I appreciate your views.

          Your example of MA seems to prove my point. As I said, “having a weak opposition party makes such improvements less likely. Without competition and contention provided by the opposition, governments tend to go to extremes.”

          And I wasn’t talking about politicians, who of course rarely if ever give up power willingly.

          Remember too the recent example of Karl Rove’s desire for a durable/permanent Republican majority, and the gerrymanderingpalooza that took place after the recent Censuses.

          My point is that it’s far healthier and helpful for Americans, the vast majority of whom are generally somewhere in the middle politically, whether center-right or center-left, to have two healthy parties, competing in the marketplace of ideas.

          Parties are supposed to be responsible for promoting reasonable and reasoned debate in the “national conversation.” This helps to push democratic political discussions to a greater degree of development, maturity, and relevance.

          When the “national conversation” gets distorted, and extremists get involved and elevated to prominence, the relevance of politics to ordinary people is greatly diminished. They tune out and turn away, leaving only those with extreme views behind to continue the shouting matches.

          Opposition parties help democracy by holding the government to account for its errors of commission or omission. Opposition parties can represent a viable alternative to the incumbent government through their alternative ideas, principles and policies for society. Then when the party in power lets the voters down, the “government-in-waiting” takes over through the electoral process.

          When one party is weak, unhealthy, and extreme in its views, the nation suffers. Voters reject the unreasonable and extreme alternative.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Nothing wrong with your theories.  We can agree.  However, who gets to define extremism?  The elite media?  The Statists?

            For instance, the Tea Party, in my view, in not ‘extreme’.  If you look at their platform they believe in fiscal responsibility and adherence to the Constitution.  This platform  polls quite well with the populace.  However, the elite media and Statists in both parties keep trying to paint the Tea Party as extremist.  Why?  To protect the status quo and the entrenched interests.

          • hennorama

            WorriedfortheCountry – TY again for your response. I respect your views.

            As the “Tea Party” is not an actual political party, one has difficulty comparing it to the two major US political parties.

            The “Tea Party Movement” (TPM) has expressed its principles, two of which you stated, as “fiscal responsibility and adherence to the Constitution,” plus “limited government”.

            If the Republicans in Congress who were elected with TPM backing, as well as some of the TPM-backed candidates who lost, talked only about those things, that would be one thing. But of course, that hasn’t been the case. As others have pointed out, there have been some pretty “out there” views expressed, such as:

            “Second Amendment remedies” – Sharron Angle

            “I’m not a witch … I’m you,” and “You’re telling me [that separation of church and state is] in the First Amendment?”, and practically anything else Christine O’Donnell ever said in public

            “I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country (Nazi Germany) that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incredible things.” —Ohio GOP House candidate and Tea Party favorite Rich Iott, explaining why for years he donned a German Waffen SS uniform and participated in Nazi re-enactments,

            “The first thing that has to be done is secure the border … East Germany was very, very able to reduce the flow. Now, obviously, other things were involved. We have the capacity to, as a great nation, secure the border. If East Germany could, we could.” – Alaska GOP Senate candidate Joe Miller (who is running again).

            “Do you know, where does this phrase ‘separation of church and state’ come from? It was not in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists. … The exact phrase ‘separation of Church and State’ came out of Adolph Hitler’s mouth, that’s where it comes from. So the next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State, ask them why they’re Nazis.” —Glen Urquhart, the Tea Party-backed Republican nominee for the Delaware House

            “Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don’t think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.” —Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden, suggesting the violent overthrow of the U.S. government if Republicans didn’t win

            “Instead of handing out the welfare checks, we’ll teach people how to earn their check. We’ll teach them personal hygiene … the personal things they don’t get when they come from dysfunctional homes. These (prisons) are beautiful properties with basketball courts, bathroom facilities, toilet facilities. Many young people would love to get the hell out of cities. You have to teach them basic things — taking care of themselves, physical fitness. In their dysfunctional environment, they never learned these things.” —GOP New York gubernatorial candidate Carl Paladino, arguing that the state’s poor should be housed in prisons

            And this from http://www.teaparty.org:

            “15 Non-negotiable Core Beliefs

            1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.
            2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.
            3. A strong military is essential.
            4. Special interests must be eliminated.
            5. Gun ownership is sacred.
            6. Government must be downsized.
            7. The national budget must be balanced.
            8. Deficit spending must end.
            9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.
            10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.
            11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.
            12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.
            13. Intrusive government must be stopped.
            14. English as our core language is required.
            15. Traditional family values are encouraged.”

            These are “Non-negotiable,” which by itself is an extreme view.

            And there’s a “CIVIL WAR?” Tab on their website, which says “ARE THE FEDS PREPARING FOR CIVIL WAR? Is the government preparing to put down widespread civil strife or uprising?”

            Not exactly a mainstream idea, right?

            No one is “trying to paint the Tea Party as extremist.” They do it with their own words and actions, repeatedly.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Your post is an example of the vilification of Tea Party I described in an earlier post.

            Again, the Tea Party is an amorphous confederation of groups that are for adherence to the Constitution, fiscal responsibility and yes, limited government.

            It is easy to pick out a few candidates and criticize their statements and blame their  “Tea Party” affiliation even though the controversial statements have nothing to do with Tea Party principles.  Any candidate can claim Tea Party affiliation if they believe it is to their benefit but there is no way to verify Tea Party backing or even which of the many Tea Party groups is providing the backing.  The Tea Party is mostly grass roots.  This is both a strength and weakness because there is no central group that can defend unfounded attacks.

            Does Planned Parenthood get criticized when they back a controversial Democrat and the controversy is outside the purview of Planned Parenthood issues?  I can’t recall a single instance of that ever happening and if it did Planned Parenthood is a central organization that can easily defend itself.

            In your last paragraph you appear to be attacking one of the Tea Party groups for both defining their principles and standing by them.  That is a bad thing?  Also, most of the items listed by that group is neither radical or controversial.

            Finally, you seem to take issue with their stand on limited government as if that is in and of itself extreme.  I will agree that limited government could be taken to an extreme and some do.  But I will also counter that an ever growing government is also extreme and that is what we have today.  Until we get Federal spending significantly below the historic norm of 18% of GDP then we aren’t close to the extreme category.  We aren’t close to that threshold now.

          • hennorama

            WftC – TY again for your response. I respect and appreciate your views.

            I think you may misunderstand. As stated, the “Tea Party” is not
            an actual political party, making comparisons to the major political
            parties difficult. I’m not trying to vilify anyone and am just
            pointing to examples of what seem to be extreme views. All of the
            things I quoted were from the teaparty.org website, and various “out there” candidates who were running under the aegis of of the Tea
            Party Movement (TPM).

            The TPM has many notable and noble ideas. However, as you stated, there
            is a lack of a central group to organize and delineate a consistent
            message. Also, as you stated, anyone “can claim Tea Party
            affiliation if they believe it is to their benefit,” regardless of
            whether they actually believe in the TPM principles. There certainly
            was a perceived advantage to do so in the 2010 election cycle, as the
            TPM had considerable energy, which resulted in determined voters.

            However, in effect, the TPM has been co-opted by the Republican Party.

            This resulted in the election of many TPM/Republican candidates in the
            2010 midterms. What happened as a result? No compromise, no
            solutions, no bi-partisanship. Instead we got the “party of
            No!,” a debt ceiling crisis, and the fiscal cliff, to name but a
            few areas of contention.

            The
            2012 election changed some of this. TPM-endorsed candidates for
            Senate did not do very well, with 12 of 16 losing. Several of the
            most prominent TPM House members lost, notably Allen West and Joe
            Walsh. Michelle Bachmann barely eked out reelection, and has since
            said she is going to quit. Sen. Jim DeMint resigned to head the
            Heritage Foundation.

            The
            failure of TP Senate candidates Akin and Mourdock effectively cost
            Republicans a Senate majority. The Tea Party Caucus in the House
            lost several members, too, and fewer Republicans were elected to the
            House overall.

            However,
            the TP remains a significant minority of Congressional Republicans,
            but they seem in no mood for compromise with ANYONE, even with fellow
            Republicans. This internal battle will be interesting to watch, and
            holds the key to the future of the Republican Party, and perhaps the
            TPM as well.

            The
            point about the list of “Non-negotiables” on the teaparty.org
            website was not about the individual items themselves, although
            several are quite extreme. The point is that the items are quote,
            non-negotiable, end quote. It’s fine to take a principled stand, but
            governing requires compromise. We are seeing that little gets done
            by the legislative third of the US government without compromise,
            even with bills written by the House majority, such as the Farm Bill.

            I
            have not “take[n] issue with their stand on limited government as
            if that is in and of itself extreme.” In fact, I’ve expressed no
            opinion on the topic.

            And
            your statement about “an ever growing government” implies that
            this is the case currently. It is not. Both Federal government
            employment and Federal Spending (in constant 2005 dollars) have
            declined under the Obama administration. Government employment at
            all levels has been declining as well, with the May 2013 level
            showing about 735,000 fewer employees when compared to January 2009.
            Government employment at all levels has also declined as a percentage
            of total non-farm employment, falling from about 17 percent of the
            total in Jan. 2009 to a bit over 16 percent in May 2013.

            You
            also are WAY, WAY off with your understanding of Federal Spending.
            You wrote “Federal spending … the historic norm of 18% of GDP”
            which is incorrect. The actual averages for Federal Spending for a
            variety of time periods are:

            Pre-Obama
            1940 thru 2008: 20.4%

            With
            Obama 1940 thru 2012: 20.6%

            Pre-Medicare
            1940 to 1964: 20.4%

            Medicare
            Era 1965 to 2012: 20.8%

            40
            years Pre-Obama 1969 – 2008: 21.07%

            Last
            40 years w/Obama 1973 – 2012: 21.04%

            Various
            ten-year periods, and the last three years:

            1940-1949
            24.07%

            1950-1959
            17.59

            1960-1969
            18.64

            1970-1979
            20.08

            1980-1989
            22.21%

            1990-1999
            22.23

            2001-2009
            20.04

            2010-2012
            23.67

            Sources:http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cesbtab1.htm

            http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2014/assets/hist01z3.xls

            See
            these employment charts:

            The
            FRED graph shows Public Sector employment at all levels as a
            percentage of total non-farm employment. The second graph shows
            Public Sector employment under President Bush II and President Obama
            (through early 2013):

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         “We need healthy and reasonable political parties, not extremists.”

        What if both major parties are interested in preserving political power and aren’t truly interested in addressing the single largest threat to our nation — our rapidly growing national debt?
        What if it is the ‘extremists’ that are the only ones willing to address this most pressing concern?
        I could make a good case that the majority in both parties are the extremists on this issue.

        • hennorama

          WftC – TY for your response. I respect your views.

          Again, I wasn’t referring to politicians, but rather to the nation as a whole.

          As in any competition, the two major parties would each love to see the other fall on their face and fail. But what is good for one individual party is rarely good for the nation as a whole. We need relatively equal and healthy parties to counterbalance each other.

          I will leave your contention about “…the single largest threat to our nation — our rapidly growing national debt” unremarked upon, as that is a different discussion.

          One thing I will say is that those who agree with you always have the option of forming an actual political party if they feel unrepresented in the two major parties.

    • jefe68

      Seems to me that GOP needs all the help it can get.
      If there extremis keeps up it will be a marginalized party in less than decade in terms of national elections and will only win in states that have enough of a voter population that supports the extremist.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        No.  They need to stand on principles of limited Federal  government and the Constitution and stop playing the Statist’s game.  But thanks for your ‘help’.

         “All of this faux-sympathetic chin pulling is just a clever
        disguise for saying “All of your problems would go away if you’d just
        change your mind about everything and agree with liberalism.”  Somehow
        people still fall for this.  Too often such people are U.S. senators.”

        http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/06/the-gop-and-its-friendly-media-fixers.php

        • jefe68

          I agree with you. They need to get back to being a Conservative party. Not the party that obsess about women reproduction rights, or being anti-immigration reform and the party of no.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Oh, we agree.

            btw – You can be FOR immigration reform but AGAINST a 1000 page boondoggle that we have to “pass to find out what is in it”.

            Immigration reform should be easy if done with discrete, simple laws that remove ALL magnets for illegal immigration — including anchor babies, EITC, Obamacare, etc.  At the same time make sure that you have a robust LEGAL immigration system with right sized guest worker program and eVerify system.

            If the GOP had balls they would call the Dems bluff and remove ANY path to citizenship as part the ‘amnesty’ deal’.  Then we’d find out the true agenda.

          • HonestDebate1

            Good point. You can also be for healthcare reform and oppose Obamacare. 

          • jefe68

            You mean kust letting the market dictate how health care is implemented and paid for, or worse. Our market based system is a complete failure.

            The GOP has no plan, nothing. Well, they did it’s now called Obamacare.

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re a talking point with ears.

    • brettearle

      Based on the Electorate, the GOP is, currently, the minority party. And, as long as the GOP ignores the country’s basic and general relationship between political vision and current demography, it will remain the minority party.

      Basically, the GOP is noticeably more out of touch with the thinking of the majority in the country–than the Democrats are.

      If the radical Right were not holding the GOP hostage, then the GOP could work out, much more easily and effectively, its problems.

      The question is, can, and will, the GOP break loose from its own radical shackles?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Hmmm.  The GOP does have issues.  I would contend most of their problems on the big issues relate to marketing.  They lack good communicators like Reagan and they’ve let their political opponents and the media define the issues and messaging — to wit the faux war on women first introduced by Democrat media accomplice, George Stephanopolous, during the last election cycle. It was amazing how much time the media spent on abortion issues when it wasn’t part of Romney’s platform and there isn’t really any way for this to change given Roe v. Wade has been considered settled law for 40 years and the President has little power to change the law given the SCOTUS ruling.

        The media is a large factor.  Yes, GOP politicians said stupid things during the last cycle but Democrats said stupid things too.  And guess which statements get covered — and then played over and over in a continuous loop and which ones didn’t?

        I don’t know who you consider the radical right?  Rand Paul?  Marco Rubio?  Paul Ryan?  How about the radical left?  Would you consider Nancy Pelosi the radical left?

        • brettearle

          Your view of Media, in my view, is not necessarily accurate.

          It is well-known that AM Talk Radio, across this country, is a major influence in political thinking.

          For you to ignore the Swift Boat scandal and how AM Radio sunk Senator Kerry’s campaign, as the result of that scandal, is a good example of being in denial about Right Wing Media influence.

          If you were to ignore major media coverage of the Birther issue and Obamacare, and the accompanying allegations and criticism, this would also be a good example of you being in denial about Right Wing media criticism.

          I am not sure I understand your point about Liberal Media and the Abortion.  I am not exactly sure that I heard what you heard.

          For one thing, Roe v Wade IS ALWAYS an issue, every 4 years.

          That is because some Supreme Court Justices will retire or, God forbid, die–which means that Roe v Wade COULD BE overturned, depending on which President might be in office, at the time that there is an opening on the bench.

          But, yes, the Liberal Media DID treat Romney unfairly–vis a vis his wealth and the excessive criticism that he might have received for his supposed cavalier attitude towards the 99%.

          [I don't like Romney's attitude and policies, with regard to the economy, but the criticism was probably somewhat over the top.]

          Sarah Palin, Cruz, Rand Paul, Bachmann, and many who signed on with Nordquist are examples of Tea Partiers and Tea Party Sympathizers….  

          I consider Pelosi to be a moderate Liberal.

          Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders I would consider to be from the radical Left.

          The radical Left, in the Democratic party, are much fewer in number and not at all organized–compared to the Tea Party.

          • HonestDebate1

            Dennis Kucinich works for Fox, he can’t be radical left, he must be radical right.

          • brettearle

            Ha.  Ha.

            The `yokes’ on me.

            Are you hear to tell me that he Turned State’s Evidence?

            That’s almost tantamount to believing that one of the original Saints had unclean thoughts.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Thanks for the response.  We just see things very differently.

            Right wing radio has much less influence than you contend.  Otherwise, Obama never would have been reelected since he according to right wing radio, Obama was, by far, the worst President.

            Roe v. Wade is a wedge issue.  It was used effectively by Bush and now by Obama but I still believe it isn’t  likely to change despite the recent comments that Ruth Bader Ginsburg has acknowledged that the decision goes too far.

            The Tea Party is an amorphous confederation of different groups and people.  They represent a continuum of ideas along the spectrum of limited government.  Therefore, they could defined as centrist OR extreme depending on which spokespeople you listen to.  Since there is no central authority it has been easy to falsely demonize the movement.   However, the fundamentals of the Tea Party platform — fiscal responsibility and adherence to the Constitution — is very centrist. Until they start pushing for limiting the Federal spending below about 18% of GDP (the historic non war norm) they will be centrist.  We have a long way to go to hit that milestone.

        • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

          There is no longer a radical left. The Sky God has killed them with EXPERT marketing.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Marketing is their problem?

          I will not do anything to dissuade you in your belief.

          You can go over that cliff without me helping push you.

    • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

      Pity is a hard “handout” for the GOP to take!

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Lead author of the IPCC report on climate change muses on unexpected halt in global warming.  German newspaper appears stunned.

    ” So far, no one has been able to provide a compelling answer to why
    climate change seems to be taking a break. We’re facing a puzzle. Recent CO2 emissions have actually risen even more steeply than we feared. As a result, according to most climate models, we should have seen temperatures rise by around 0.25 degrees Celsius (0.45 degrees Fahrenheit) over the past 10 years. That hasn’t happened.”

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/06/20/if-things-continue-as-they-have-been-in-five-years-at-the-latest-we-will-need-to-acknowledge-that-something-is-fundamentally-wrong-with-our-climate-models/#more-88525

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       More.


      SPIEGEL: What could be wrong with the models?

      Storch: There are two conceivable explanations — and neither is very
      pleasant for us. The first possibility is that less global warming is
      occurring than expected because greenhouse gases, especially CO2, have
      less of an effect than we have assumed. This wouldn’t mean that there is
      no man-made greenhouse effect, but simply that our effect on climate
      events is not as great as we have believed. The other possibility is
      that, in our simulations, we have underestimated how much the climate
      fluctuates owing to natural causes.”

      • pete18

        Come on, the science is settled!

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Yup, that’s what they keep telling us.

          Ooops!!!!

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Nice in the echo chamber, huh?

          • jimino

             More like a circle jerk.

          • pete18

            It’s hard being a cold shower when you have no answers for the challenges to your climate change cult, isn’t it?

          • jefe68

            Cult?

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Yeah, it’s really tough standing up to righty bloggers from Redstate Community College when you have no answers but the ones from every National Academy of Sciences in the world. I just don’t know how we manage to keep seeing the obvious. It’s so hard :)

          • pete18

            Good, then you should be able to easily list them. The reason there is less global warming than predicted by the models, despite the large increase in CO2 in the atmosphere over the last 15 years, is…..?

          • StilllHere

            Now we know your weekend plans.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Keep kneeling at the algorian altar.  You sound like a religious zealot.  Or maybe a flat-earther.

            btw -  Der Spiegel is not a ‘righty’ blog but a German leftist publication and they were interviewing one of the lead scientists from the IPCC — not one of the politicians at the IPCC.

          • TomK_in_Boston

            I do believe in algorithms – in fact I design them. The ones that model the climate are getting better all the time.

            OTOH, the fact that we’re at 400 ppm CO2, that we know the sharp increase is man-made, and that every time it’s been this high in the past we have had a far hotter planet would make anyone not blinded by ideology very worried, no algorithms needed.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Very good.

            ” The ones that model the climate are getting better all the time.”

            Love to see some evidence of this statement given state of ‘panic’ in the warmist community and the cautionary statements by the IPCC climate scientist.

            We can agree that man is adding CO2 to the atmosphere — with most of the increase coming from China and India.  Since you mention the historic climate record, you must know that in every previous instance of warming that the CO2 increase FOLLOWED the increase in warming.  This time it is the opposite.  Also, you must also acknowledge that correlation doesn’t prove causation.  Now that correlation is starting to fall  apart — given the DATA.

            And I’m not blinded by an ideology on the science.  However, I am skeptical when I see propaganda regarding AGW alarmism.  Skepticism is healthy in science and if you looked past the propaganda you would see the ever increasing skepticism around the state of the climate models that have been propping up the AGW hypothesis.

          • pete18

            “but as the best guess by the best minds on a complex problem.”

            Yeah, those are the terms one uses for something that is “settled.” Might make one think that people who are skeptical of the global warming crisis hypothesis, including the majority of scientists (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/02/13/peer-reviewed-survey-finds-majority-of-scientists-skeptical-of-global-warming-crisis/) cannot be considered “deniers,” can they?

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            YOU have a fixed position on everything. Science does not. Your views are monotonous because you CAN’T take new data into account.  

          • HonestDebate1

            Have you met Mr. Kettle?

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            I’ve met Mr. Pot AND Mr. Kettle. I tell you this because I am Mr. Brillo.

          • HonestDebate1

            That makes sense because you have scrubbed the new data.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            Yes because it was “RAW” data that got us into Iraq.

          • HonestDebate1

            Careful, you’ll get dizzy.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            A sense of humor would help.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Huh?  Sorry, I am the one here reporting on the latest data.  Others appear to be ignoring the latest science.  They don’t like it because it is an inconvenient truth.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            So you agree with Sarah Palin that CO2 is harmless because “natural”. That”s fine.

          • pete18

            You don’t want to answer the question do you? None of this has anything to do with Sarah Palin (except for the fact that many people with a dogmatic acceptance of global warming theories arrive to their positions via politics rather than critical thinking).

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            We are the laughing stock of the world  because people of the “flat earth” persuasion have politicized the issue. In that sense it has EVERYTHING to do   with Sarah Palin; spokeswoman in chief, and titular  hate-mongerer of the GOP.

          • HonestDebate1

            I love Sarah Palin.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            I spayed my cat.

          • pete18

            Would not your position  demand changes and skepticism in the warmists’ assumptions about either their dire predictions that come from the models, or in how CO2 actually effects atmosphere and weather in the real world? Isn’t that the epitome of scientific inquiry? Would not sticking to your original assumptions and theories in the face of new challenging data be epitome of “monotonous” thinking?

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            Throwing demonized bombs like “cultist” and “warmists” is a well-worn tactic of Roger Ailes, whose Nixonian stratagems  are fast losing their power through overuse. THAT is one definition of monotony.    Are you waiting for God to fix all?

          • pete18

            Once again in this reply and the one below, you’re singing and dancing about tangential
            nonsense in the hope that no one will notice that you are unable to answer the
            question. What accounts for the lack of warming that the models predicted would
            happen with the rise of CO2? Come on, here’s your chance to show all of us
            flat-earthers how sharp your science based, non-politicized thinking is. Should
            be an easy task.

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            Frankly, I am more concerned with the coming water shortage and (yes it’s a dated liberal hobby horse), the population explosion. The best I got is to say is that the latest science doesn’t  necessarily appear to be the best, especially when factoids get cherry picked out of their context by  suspect sources. I’m only an Artist, not a Scientist,but YOU obviouslyhave a handle on the Scientific  Method. Alas, Art is Dead in America,soon to be followed by Science, because both are too expensive for US. Over and out.

          • pete18

            Right. So I guess if you can’t  answer the question you shouldn’t be prattling on about fixed points of views, flat earthers and other people’s inability to take new data into account, should you?

          • disqus_fw2Bu1dEsd

            I love you too.

      • OnPointComments

        When anyone wants the answer to climate change, they’d be wise to follow the money.  $72 billion spent by the US government since 2008.  It pays really well to promote climate change — just ask Al Gore.  Too hot?  Climate change.  Too cold?  Climate change.  Too wet?  Climate change.  Too dry?  Climate change.  Climate change is the perfect scam that has the perfect answers to ensure that the flow of money never ceases.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          While you’re at it, be sure to follow the money spent by the fossil fuel industry. Reminds me of the money spent by the cigarette industry on those “studies” showing that smoking doesn’t cause cancer. 

          BTW, you make yourself look even more foolish by the constant references to al gore. Do you really think the National Academy takes a cue from a gore? Do you think James Hansen, who devotes his life to studying climate, follows al gore? Those references may be feel-good lines on the righty blogs, but they just show your partisanship and ignorance in the real world.

    • Bill_GKD

      I thought that we couldn’t trust the IPCC or NOAA, according to Watts.  Didn’t he charge NOAA and the NCDC with tampering with the temperature record or something.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Something.

        The interview was in Der Spiegel. Watts simply posted the interview.

  • OnPointComments

    What is the price of government incompetence?
     
    USIS, the private company that does background checks for the government, including the background check on NSA leaker Edward Snowden that resulted in his top secret clearance, is under investigation for incompetence.  The price of incompetence?  $200 million paid to USIS last year.
     
    Lois Lerner of the IRS, who planted the question to expose IRS targeting before the IG report became public, is on PAID administrative leave for targeting conservatives and refusing to testify.  This is after she got $42,000 in bonuses in three years, and earned $740,000 between 2009 and 2012.
     
    IRS to pay $70 million in bonuses this year.
     
    Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan has been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars while awaiting trial on 13 counts of premeditated murder and 32 counts of attempted murder.
     
    Why would anyone think that this government needs more revenue?

    • TomK_in_Boston

      I agree. If gvt stopped contracting out jobs to predatory, inefficient, unpatriotic private corporations, and hired more civil servants, they would cut costs and increase efficiency. Why are Booze Allen employees involved in national security in the first place? Why is KBR (“Keep Bush Rich” someone said yesterday :)) preparing meals for our soldiers instead of the soldiers themselves? Why do we have contractors guarding embassies instead of Marines?

      We’d be a lot better off with more government employees and a lot less privatization. However we wouldn’t redistribute as much wealth to the corporate elite which is, of course, the point.

      BTW the IRS did nothing wrong. There is no “scandal” but the one made up in the righty media. If 90% of the fraudulent applications come from groups that say T-party, isn’t is common sense to use T-P in a keyword search? Isn’t that the same argument you wingnuts love when it comes to profiling muslims?

      • 1Brett1

        Yeah, but, but, but they’re, they’re Muslims, for chrissssake! T-Partiers are American! And White to boot!

      • jimino

        The real scandal is that no tp’er was prosecuted for fraudulently trying to get a government benefit they were clearly prohibited from getting.

        Martha Stewart went to prison for a lot less.

    • hennorama

      OPC – Lois Lerner didn’t do any so-called “targeting [of] conservatives.”

      According to the TIGTA report, on July 29, 2011, “the Director, EO [Lerner], raised concerns over the language of the BOLO listing criteria. The Director, EO [Lerner], instructed that the criteria be immediately revised. Further, “The criteria were changed to ‘organizations involved with political, lobbying, or advocacy for exemption under 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4).’ ”

      Then on February 29, 2012, “The Director, EO [Lerner], stopped any more additional information request letters from being issued on advocacy cases until new guidance was provided to the Determinations Unit.”

      In sum, the report indicated “After being briefed on the expanded criteria in June 2011, the Director, EO, immediately directed that the criteria be changed. In July 2011, the criteria were changed to focus on the potential “political, lobbying, or [general] advocacy” activities of the organization.”

      Source:http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2013reports/201310053fr.pdf

      • OnPointComments

        I would have fired Lois Lerner for refusing to testify.  A person has a 5th amendment right against self incrimination, but not a right to employment when they refuse to give the facts about the job they were hired to do.  Only in government, and/or in union involvement, can a person be questioned about their job, refuse to answer, and keep their job.

        • hennorama

          OPC – TY for your response.

          I’m not unsympathetic with your view on this topic, but one can understand Lerner’s reluctance to testify in front of a grandstanding panel looking for a scapegoat.

          According to the TIGTA report, she tried to change what was happening. The report found that her efforts in July 2011 had only a temporary affect, and “the team of specialists subsequently changed the criteria in January 2012 without executive approval because they believed the July 2011 criteria were too broad. The January 2012 criteria again focused on the policy positions of organizations instead of tax-exempt laws and Treasury Regulations. After three months, the Director, Rulings and Agreements, learned the criteria had been changed by the team of specialists and subsequently revised the criteria again in May 2012.”

          “[In April 2012] The Acting Director, Rulings and Agreements, learned that the BOLO listing criteria had been changed on January 25, 2012, and informed the Director, EO [Lerner].”

          (Same source as previously).

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Yeah, it takes some kind of dumb for a person in Lerner’s position to just go on and on like that.

            Genuine complaints about her clamming up are something I only care about from the same people who wondered why Karl Rove and Dick Cheney got away with contempt of Congress.

        • HonestDebate1

          The fact that she wasn’t fired and is getting paid is proof Obama was not being honest when he said he wanted to get to the bottom of it. If that was true he would have demanded everyone in his cabinet t cooperated fully. 

          The FBI has yet to question any Tea Party Groups. It’s pathetic. There is no justice, just rhetoric.

          • jefe68

            And yet this is now been proven to have nothing to do with Obama.
            And yet you keep harking on it to keep your little world view in focus.

          • HonestDebate1

            Everybody involved has been promoted, no one has been punished. Do you think Obama is truly outraged as he said?

            BTW, I’m not asking if he was involved.

  • marygrav

    Why do you keep telling me ways to listen that don’t work?

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    someone needs to photoshop a giant bowl of spaghetti and a lady and the tramp background into the photo of oboma and putin

  • OnPointComments

    The EEOC says that using an employee’s criminal background history as a factor in hiring has a “disparate impact” (the government’s favorite pseudo-science) on African Americans, and is suing BMW and Dollar General.  
     
    What’s next?  Mandating that pedophiles be given a second chance in daycare centers? Or maybe it’s changing DUI laws because of the disparate impact on illegals:
     
    “Drunk on amnesty”
     http://www.humanevents.com/2013/06/21/drunk-on-amnesty/ 
     
    Excerpt:
     The end result is that illegal aliens are responsible for a wildly disproportional number of DUI arrests as well DUI-related crashes, hit-and-runs and fatalities. So much so that a special exception has been added to an already generous amnesty bill to keep widespread DUI arrests from gumming up the illegals’ legalization process.

    • 1Brett1

      That’s a pretty elaborate set-up for someone who just wanted to say, “those damned drunk Mexicans!”

    • hennorama

      OPC – that “excerpt” is merely a baseless opinion of a blogger from a site called “Ace Of Spades HQ”.

      See:http://ace.mu.nu/archives/341057.php

      This opinion is based on a nearly seven-year-old piece from NPR’s Morning Edition. The piece was hosted by Renee Montagne, with Adam Hochberg reporting. Here’s the pertinent portion of the piece:

      “HOCHBERG: Nationwide, Latinos rank second only to Native Americans and their alcohol death rate on the highway. The extent of the problem varies from state to state, but community leaders say it seems worse in places where Latinos have newly immigrated. At Al Pueblo, a Hispanic advocacy group in North Carolina, safety director Tony Ascion(ph) says Latino drunk drivers tend to be young men in the U.S. without their families, people who have a lot of free time and a lot of what Ascion calls, machismo.”

      See:http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5572465

      Note that the term “illegal aliens” was NOT used, making the blogger’s opinion completely baseless. In other words, not based on fact. It is a faulty and illogical leap, equating the term “Latinos” with “illegal aliens”.

      Do you think that is a fair and reasonable opinion, based on the Hochberg quote?

      BTW, no statistics or sources were cited by Hochberg, nor were any cited in the piece that you quoted.

      The excerpt is therefore merely a blogger’s baseless opinion.

      You can do better. You weaken your argument when you cite such baseless opinions.

      • OnPointComments

        Why do you suppose the supporters of the immigration bill saw the need to give a pass to illegal immigrant drunk drivers?

        • hennorama

          OPC – TY for your response.

          You’re wrong.

          Actually, the proposed Senate Bill would amend both Title 8 USC § 1182 – Inadmissible aliens, and Title 8 USC § 1227- Deportable aliens to ADD the category of “HABITUAL DRUNK DRIVERS” as being both inadmissible AND deportable.

          This STRENGTHENS the prohibitions against what you characterized as “illegal immigrant drunk drivers” because there are no such specific prohibitions under current law.

          See:http://www.lawandsoftware.com/bseoima/bseoima-senate-3702.html (the proposed bill)

          http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182 (Title 8 USC § 1182 – Inadmissible aliens)

          http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227 (Title 8 USC § 1227- Deportable aliens)

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Obama’s Uncle Omar?  After all, he is an illegal immigrant charged with DUI.

      • HonestDebate1

        Ace is a brilliant blogger. I’d trust him over NPR any day of the week. You should bookmark his site.

        • hennorama

          Gregg Smith – Wrong. Please STFU.

          (Stick To Foaling Ungulates).

          You might try reading the linked articles before commenting. The blogger with the baseless opinion cited by OPC was not “Ace”.

          Again, please STFU.

          • HonestDebate1

            I wasn’t replying to OPC, I was replying to you.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          That preference says more about you than it does about NPR.

          (And folks wonder why I tend to make blanket statements about right-wingers and their valuation of journalism.)

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you trust NPR?

  • marygrav

    Please folks, Colonialism is over–OVER!  The Natives are too well armed to care what the United States and the EU have to say about how to run their lives.  One day the US will overstep and the former Empire will in one voice remind it that in 1945 it tried to reinforce Colonialism all over the world in the name of fighting Communism.  And the result is the Talaban.

    Neocons John McCain wants the US to arm the rebels.  Remember 2003 and how Dick Chaney convince Bush that Iraq would be a cakewalk.  Don’t forget what the original meaning of Cakewalk is.  The Cakewalk was the slaves imitating and mocking their masters and the prize was always a cake.  In other words it was a farce.

    To got into a country and say, you must throw out you leader because we tell you so, echoes Colonialism too much.  And if any people have pride they will defend their country against any invader.  The West is a known invader that goes around doing well in the so-called Third World with the aid of the Comperdore Class of quisling calling themselves Kings and other Royals.

    In the old days, the West could go into any country, like the Congo, Iran, Chile etc., and declare that it was fighting Communism, take over, have the leader executed, then leave the Native population in poverty and forget about them.

    This is what happened in Afganistan.  But Bin Laden and Al Qaeda put an end to that on 9/11. 

    As for the meeting between Putin and Obama, there is no law that amnesia has to prevail between old enemies.  Russia has an obligation to protect its main ally, just as Obama has to protect the interests of Israel. 

    And more importantly Syria is facing attacks from the 27 nation states which form the EU, plus the US, Canada and Israel, not to count the Arab League.  Syria can only count on Russia and China, on some level of opportunism.  What Russia and China understand that just like a demand can be made on the Leader of Syria to go to his eventual death by giving up his office and leaving his country, can also be demand of them and their leadership.

    The Colonizer has always been a cunning devil.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      only Russia and china?

    • brettearle

      Your comments give us the impression that ONLY the West is responsible for all the problems in the Middle East and Central Asia.

      Your comments–to a very fair degree–suggest that without the West’s interference, these regions of the world would either be better off or would not face the kinds of problems that these regions are facing.

      The West can certainly be blamed for many things.

      But for you to ignore the problems of, for example, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine–and to say that the West is THE culprit–is a very thin, naive, and superficial assessment of these countries’  political systems, resources, cultural contrasts, and climate problems……

      ……issues that would grow and fester without US presence. 

  • E_Conegliano

    Trudy Rubin wants us to go to war to save face for Obama?

  • tbphkm33

    I keep hearing hype regarding the housing market making a rebound.  I can’t help but to conclude this is mini-bubble hype.  I’m not seeing a healthy housing market backed by an overall healthy economy.  The situation is more along the lines of a great number of people who have been sitting still for four years and are now putting houses on the market or are forced to buy because of circumstances.  Such as a growing family needing a bigger house.  Or empty nesters who would have downsized in the past four years, but the housing market kept them from pursuing it.  

    Come fall, I think the housing market will make a correction and provide a rude wakeup call to the overall economy.  Feel sorry for builders who wrongly conclude the good old days are back and jump into building new supply, they are going to discover its not so rosy when those new units are ready to hit the market.  If I was a builder, I would be looking for restoration of existing stock in desirable locations.  Such as closer into cities or with great transportation links. 

    In so many aspects, it is a new economy out there.  The last thing to do is walk the yellow brick road thinking everything is going back to the good old days.  Its a new economy with closer ties to the global economy, overall requiring new thinking on so many levels.  

    • HonestDebate1

      I agree its the new normal but it didn’t have to be this way.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      diversification and profit taking are advisable

    • hennorama

      tbphkm33 – It’s not hype. The US housing market has definitely rebounded, with Existing Home Sales (not seasonally adjusted) increasing year-over-year in 2011 and 2012, and month-over-month for each of the first five months of 2013.

      Inventories are quite low, with the May 2013 level the lowest level of inventory for the month of May since 2002. Supply levels have been hovering around the 5 month level (plus or minus ½ month), over the past nine months. This is one-half the supply level as in 2008.

      New Home Sales are also up, and may have a greater upside, since they have been at very low percentages of total sales. Supply of new homes has been hovering around the 4 ½ month level (plus or minus ½ month), for over one year.

      Another major factor has been the increase in employment. While unemployment is still too high, employment growth has given home buyers greater confidence.

      See:

      http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/06/comment-on-existing-home-sales.html#hT4VIjJwAefDrr8s.99

      http://www.nahb.org/fileUpload_details.aspx?contentID=55761

      http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/04/25/new-home-sales/

      This all means that it’s unlikely that there will be a significant housing correction. While rising mortgage interest rates provide some downward drag, low inventory implies higher prices. It’s likely that inventory will soon begin to increase for some of the reasons you stated, and also due to rising prices. Some sellers will view this as an opportunity to finally get out from under their mortgages. On the other hand, some buyers will respond to recent mortgage rate increases by accelerating their buying decisions, in fear of even higher rates.

      As inventory begins to increase, buyers will be able to be a bit more choosy and feel less urgency to act. This will moderate price increases, but prices will likely still increase.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brenss.lopezmendieta Brenss Lopez Mendieta

    I hope this ____ women on the show will lead the invasion to whatever FOREGIN nation she feels we ought to be fighting in for whatever upper level interest that benefit whoever. It would be great to see her come back with missing limbs to tell us how important some dot in the middle east is to us.

    Shes clearly a puppet and totally ignorant of herself. American people are not interested in losing lives to uphold the American ego of its upper class citizens.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brenss.lopezmendieta Brenss Lopez Mendieta

    For every 100 soliders KIA, a state rep who voted for whatever combat should be executed. Lets see how precise our leadership would be if THEIR lives were at stake.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      you might be on to something. Washington would have been disappointed in sending people to war when you wont go with them

  • Michael Bristol

    Congress with an approval rating of 17%.
    When that rating drops to 0%, members of Congress
    will still be, without hindrance, going about their business.
    Which is the business of passing laws that line the pockets
    of those that line theirs.

  • Steve__T

  • 1Brett1

    “Racism, sexual harassment and everything else in the accusations against Paula Deen and her brother are the norm, not the exception in the restaurant industry.”

    http://www.forwardprogressives.com/paula-deens-downfall-speaks-to-the-big-picture-on-racism-in-the-restaurant-industry/

    Then, of course, there’s this little bit when Paula Deen was discussing possible catering themes for her brother’s wedding, y’all:

    http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/200679/paula-deen-loves-racial-slurs-and-black-caterers-dressed-as-slaves/

    • HonestDebate1

      So now the restaurant industry is racist as well as the entire South, what BS. Why do you post such crap? 

      I just don’t see why anyone cares.

      • 1Brett1

        Why anyone cares that this sort of thing still goes on? Why anyone cares that a pig can make millions of dollars off of an anachronistic, bigoted attitude (who also happened to cook like a rank amateur subscribing to the idea that if you salt it, fry it or add enough butter and flour you can make anything taste “good”)? Why anyone cares that you thought enough of it to comment on it? Why anyone cares that your response is predictably critical of an accusation against a southern white racist, being that you are also a southern white racist?

        P.S.-Who said anything about the ENTIRE south being racist? How much experience do you have working in southern restaurants providing traditional southern food, that are also owned by southern whites and cater to a predominantly white customer base?  

        • HonestDebate1

          Those aren’t even sentences.

          PS. do you read your own links?

          “Racism and bigotry? It’s common in that environment. It is an accepted part of both the South, and the industry.”

          • 1Brett1

            So, the argument you mount is that some of the sentence structures in the articles linked have weak syntax?

            You refuse to condemn Paul Deen’s behaviors? Not one peep of condemnation, just that the articles contain some syntactically weak sentences? …That would be funny if it weren’t such a sad statement about how you support southern white bigotry.

          • HonestDebate1

            No, I was talking about the entire first paragraph of your comment. The article’s sentences were fine, just bigoted.

            I’m not going to even go there if you are looking for condemnation or praise or whatever. I don’t dignify trash. You conclusions are whacked. 

            Hell, I played in a Southern restaurant last night. A great time was had by all, including me. They serve Shrimp and Grits. They even have a pre-civil war name, The 1841 Cafe. The audience was anything but racist. 

            Why do you dwell on this stuff?

          • 1Brett1

            You said you didn’t see “why anyone cares”…I was asking questions to get clarification of what you meant (to which you didn’t reply). Would you have been more satisfied if I had been more syntactically correct by prefacing each question with “Are you saying you don’t see why…?” Suddenly you are Mr. Pedantic? 

            Did anyone say ALL restaurants or ALL of the south are racist? Again, you seem to mount your arguments by making any perceived opposing viewpoint into an absolute (which makes your argument easier, I guess; nice bush- league debate tactic).

            You sure do spend a lot of time arguing over stuff you say doesn’t matter/no one cares about/is trash, etc.

            Wow, you played in a southern restaurant last night? Being that you are a tone-deaf bigot yourself, maybe you have a difficult time recognizing racism? I guess you musicianship in restaurants means you are an expert in how kitchen help get treated regularly in some southern restaurants? Would you be critical of a restaurant owner who was disrespectful to employees? Would you bite the hand that feeds you? Hell SOME restaurant owners are even disrespectful to musicians (who aren’t even their regular employees). You’d be lying if you didn’t recognize that phenomenon.

            By the way, it is noteworthy that you ALWAYS capitalize south, southern, etc. Only the ones who are waiting for another civil war, who call the Civil War “the war of Northern aggression,” who say, “the South’s gonna rise again,” who wave a rebel battle flag (which isn’t even the Confederate flag but a battle flag from the Civil War), who are bigots pretending to be proud historians of their heritage (a heritage of racism and bigotry). Capitalization of “south” really is only appropriate when talking about the whole region in certain grammatical circumstances, i.e., “the South.” An example using another phrase would be the difference between “civil war” and “the Civil War.” I wouldn’t have brought this up except that it reflects your southern white supremacist mindset, but also because you found it important to criticize my sentence structures in your comment. 

            What is “trash” about all of this? Is what Paula Deen said trash? Are articles about the story trash? Pray tell, enlighten us about what you are considering trash in all of this.

            How were the articles themselves bigoted?

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re off in lala land. Let me clear it up for you. Racism matters big time, quit telling me I say it doesn’t. And I don’t care how you structure your non-sentences, it’s the premises I don’t wish to engage because they are stupid. Racism and bigotry are not accepted in the South and in the restaurant industry. That notion is sick. And read a grammar book, South should be capitalized in the context. Your projection is insane.

          • 1Brett1

            Capitalize Shrimp and Grits? Capitalize Sweet Tea? Capitalize Cornbread? Is the context for “south” anytime a person uses it? (I’m mocking your pedantic criticism.)

            There is still racism in  southern states; it still can be found without looking too hard. Is it everywhere? No. Is it found in southern restaurants (not restaurants that only offer Southernfood but in restaurants that are in southern states)? Is it in all restaurants in the South? NO. 

            Is Paula Deen a pig who is racist? I am not “cocksure” like you about so many things, but I’ve watched her show; I’ve seen her brother, Bubba. I believe the people making the charges about her racism. 

            She made a cookbookfor children. It had recipes for chocolatecake French toast for breakfast, fried Twinkies,Mac and Cheese with bacon (including the renderedfat), hamburger and ground pork. 

            She kept her Type2 Diabetes secret (yet continuedto promote recipes that are as close to unhealthy, anachronistic food piles of fat, salt and sugar as one can get and that a diabetic should stay away from) while acting like the sweet granmother everybody loves. She finally divulged that she was diabetic when she got an endorsement deal from a pharmaceutical companythat makes insulin. 

            Do I really care about scum like Paula Deen? No. I was making a commentabout something that happenedlast week in the news. Is it significant? No. No less significant than many of your offerings, though. Of course, you have to say that I am claiming absolute  racism in the South and bad business practices by southern restaurants, which I am not.  You could have ignored my comment, since it is trash and nobody cares about such things, as you say, but you exaggerated what I was saying so you could argue against it ; this is your M.O.

            Yes, racism is still alive. Yet you do attempt to deny it. It is a little more prevalent in the South than in the North. I live in the South; I have ears. I hear racist things all the time. I hear people denouncea lot of it too. But rather than discuss race, which you will not do other than in safe platitudes of self-denial, self-aggrandizement and condemnation of liberals, you go with your usual “debate” style. You do really try to make my comments something they are not and something you have to respond to then blame me somehow because you “have” to respond to them. More of a debate tactic than “honest” debate.

          • HonestDebate1

            Who said racism doesn’t exist in the South or anyplace else? Who? Just because I don’t throw the word around with the astonishing ease that you do doesn’t mean anything except I’ve got half a brain.

            Taking some chef celebrity’s comments and discerning a trend of racism based on it is stupid. Your link painted the industry and the South. That’s trash.

            You are the one getting sucked in by it. I don’t give it a second thought. You’ve said nastier stuff to me. I condemn nastiness with the same rules for everyone. I don’t care what you say to me, I won’t fall apart and I don’t assume blacks are so fragile that a word can hurt them. Most of the time if you say that word you’ll get your ass kicked and the ass kicker will be excused. It’s nuts.

            So in your mind because it’s in the news you think it’s relevant without ever realizing you are being manipulated. There is lots of news everyday, for instance:

            http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-cicero-restaurant-giovanni-donancricchia-murder-charges-20130622,0,3595273.story

            There you go, it’s got a restaurant and everything.

            If you want to talk about race then be honest and confront the fact that black on white racism is a far worse problem today that the inverse. Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites than vice versa, We have an epidemic of black flash mobs terrorizing whites. And you want to worry about what some boss tells their employee?

          • HonestDebate1
          • 1Brett1

            One kind of racism doesn’t excuse or counter another. Deen is a role model of sorts, particularly to older people, people who grew up in times of overt racism. She is very visible; and, like it or not, when one is in the spotlight one has a responsibility. Besides , her example is one of workplace racism.

            Your best defense is “blacksdo it too”? WEAK

          • HonestDebate1

            What crime did Paula seen commit? Who did she murder? It’s not crime to be an idiot racist. It’s not a crime to use butter. She lost her job, that’s fine but who cares? 

            I don’t even know what you mean by defense. I’m defending nothing. I’m pointing out your entire premise is whacked; your outrage is misplaced. On a side note, this guy (who you did defend) was arrested on a gun charge. He has a new tattoo on his face that says, “Kill Whitey”. And as I said before Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites than vice versa. That’s because of people like you.

          • 1Brett1

            You think one example represents an epidemic of black on white racism? How many examples make an epidemic? You are a racist. 

          • 1Brett1

            If a  black man shoots a white woman then that is black on white racism by definition? If a black man murders a white woman then that renders workplace racism by a highly visible person easily dismissible? There is an epidemic of black flash mobs terrorizing whites? 

            Are you ever not a racist pig?

            You lie and say I defend a  man who is a black panther, a story intended to gin up people like you, then you have the gall to say I am being played by media? You are a bigger idiot than was previously thought!

          • HonestDebate1
          • 1Brett1

            Yeah, they provided no citations to corroborate these incidents, no statistical data, nothing but anecdotes… I don’t doubt these things happen, but the word “epidemic” is an unsupported characterization.  

        • harverdphd

           pig…..wow, you really are a loser

          • 1Brett1

            You are just a loser.

        • jefe68

          You see where this going, don’t you.
          He’s trying to bait you.

          • HonestDebate1

            I can make him do tricks. I’m in his head. I can make him give me a lecture on sarcasm just by clicking like. I can make him reference me over and over when I’m not part of the thread just by confusing him a little. I can make him call me a racist. I can make him dance if you like. What’s your pleasure?

          • hennorama

            From the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic: [It's not about me]

            Number of times Gregg Smith used the words “I” and “I’m” in his last six posts: 16

          • 1Brett1

            Narcissistic borderline personality disorder, etc. It is truly astounding.

          • HonestDebate1

            It’s not about me.

          • jefe68

            Come on, it’s about you, just a little…

          • HonestDebate1

            I’ll give you this much, no matter the topic, no matter my position, the replies I get from you and a couple others always come down to what an awful person I am. That’s it, nothing but hate.

          • 1Brett1

            Naw, I’m baiting HIM…it’s just that he’s too self-centered to consider that. I think everyone recognizes how much he contradicts himself, says racist things, defends southern white bigotry, defends Republicans, condemns Democrats, etc…I particularly like how he dismisses my comments as not worth responding to then spends the rest of the day replying to them…I am often waiting during the afternoon for the next music student, etc., so I check in to see his next reply, and I throw out another only to see a couple of hours later how he replied to my comment that he says is not worth replying to; it’s funny. 

      • jefe68

        Your’re right who cares about Deen losing her show for being a bigot.

        • HonestDebate1

          Exactly.

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            don’t worry I am sure she will be back on a new show in no time probably with some “colored” friends

          • jefe68

            I get the feeling that Paula Deen treats everyone the same, badly.

      • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

        plus npr is racist too

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Worried et al. 
    I read the interview with Storch and don’t see anything for you to get so excited about. BTW if you celebrate every time you think someone is supporting what you want to believe and ignore every scientist who comes to the opposite conclusion, I hope you can see what you are doing – but I doubt it. Every righty blog is wetting their panties over this article. They cling to every straw.

    All he is doing is discussing the difficulties in modeling such a complex system. I expect the “halt” in temperature rise being discussed is the flatness at the end of the graphs below.

    http://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/Temp_anomaly.jpg

    However if you look at those curves honestly you will see that there is enough noise that you really can’t zero in on a 10 year period and find a trend – unless ideology makes you.

    Storch suggests that more heat might be going into the oceans than expected. He notes the rise of deep ocean temps and the increase in ocean acidity (CO2->carbonic acid). Do you really think that’s something to be happy about.

    I guess you didn’t want to read his conclusion:

    SPIEGEL: Despite all these problem areas, do you still believe global warming will continue?

    Storch: Yes, we are certainly going to see an increase of 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) or more — and by the end of this century, mind you. 

    The contortions you guys go through are amazing. Why?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      You mis-characterize my position.  The claim that the science is ‘settled’ is utter nonsense.  Pure propaganda.  The the AGW hypothesis has neither been proved or disproved.  Dr. Van Storch acknowledgement that the models may be flat out wrong is significant only because of who it comes from.  However, his statement should be obvious to all observers yet many warmists can’t admit that the models may be wrong.

      Here is a question for you.  What is a more accurate method to measure the earth’s temperature changes — satellite and balloon measurements of the troposphere or ground based stations?

      Ground stations have known issues.  The number and location change daily, only the max and min temperatures are measured, they are usually close to cities, and there are no standard method for making the measurements. Satellite measurements have none of these problems.

      Here is a nice graph that shows 73 model predictions vs. the balloon and satellite actual measurements over the last 40 years.  Do you see we EVERYONE in the climate community is concerned about the models?  Why they are furiously working on finding the ‘missing heat’?

      http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/CMIP5-73-models-vs-obs-20N-20S-MT-5-yr-means1.png

    • pete18

      “As a rule, climate scientists were previously very confident that the planet would be warmer than it is by now, and no one knows for sure why it isn’t. This isn’t a crisis for climate science. This is just the way science goes. But it is a crisis for climate-policy advocates who based their arguments on the authority of scientific consensus. Mr Cohn eventually gets around to admitting thatIn the end, the so-called scientific consensus on global warming doesn’t look like much like consensus when scientists are struggling to explain the intricacies of the earth’s climate system, or uttering the word “uncertainty” with striking regularity.
      But his attempt to minimise the political relevance of this is unconvincing. He writes:
      ‘The recent wave of news and magazine articles about scientists struggling to explain the warming slowdown could prolong or deepen the public’s skepticism.But the “consensus” never extended to the intricacies of the climate system, just the core belief that additional greenhouse gas emissions would warm the planet.’
      If this is true, then the public has been systematically deceived. As it has been presented to the public, the scientific consensus extended precisely to that which is now seems to be in question: the sensitivity of global temperature to increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide. Indeed, if the consensus had been only that greenhouse gases have some warming effect, there would have been no obvious policy implications at all. As this paper has maintained:
      ‘If … temperatures are likely to rise by only 2°C in response to a doubling of carbon emissions (and if the likelihood of a 6°C increase is trivial), the calculation might change. Perhaps the world should seek to adjust to (rather than stop) the greenhouse-gas splurge. There is no point buying earthquake insurance if you do not live in an earthquake zone. In this case more adaptation rather than more mitigation might be the right policy at the margin. But that would be good advice only if these new estimates really were more reliable than the old ones. And different results come from different models.’
      We have not been awash in arguments for adaptation precisely because the consensus pertained to now-troubled estimates of climate sensitivity. The moralising stridency of so many arguments for cap-and-trade, carbon taxes, and global emissions treaties was founded on the idea that there is a consensus about how much warming there would be if carbon emissions continue on trend. The rather heated debates we have had about the likely economic and social damage of carbon emissions have been based on that idea that there is something like a scientific consensus about the range of warming we can expect. If that consensus is now falling apart, as it seems it may be, that is, for good or ill, a very big deal. ”
      http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2013/06/climate-change

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Latest on WMD in Syria:

    “The UN is still unable to determine which side used chemical weapons in Syria’s conflict, the organization’s investigative committee has said. The statement came as reports of Syrian rebels being armed intensify and fears of more bloodshed mount.

    Paulo Pinheiro, chairman of the UN commission’s inquiry into rights violations in Syria, refused to comment on evidence received from the US, UK, and France which, they claim, shows Syrian President Bashar Assad’s forces using chemical weapons.

    “We are not able to say who has used chemical agents or chemical weapons and we are very worried about the chain of custody of the substances,” Pinheiro told reporters after an informal meeting with UN Security Council ambassadors.”

    How ’bout that “red line”, huh? We better intervene right away. Wouldn’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.

    • brettearle

      I have a hard time believing that Obama would forge ahead–based on inconclusive evidence, simply because he is concerned about not following through on his warning, about WMD.

      I suppose it’s possible that Obama’s being shielded from the Truth.

      But I don’t have a 100% faith in the idea thta he is being shielded from the Truth.

      For me, the prevailing belief is that Assad crossed the line and now Obama is crossing his.

  • Steve__T

    Disqus

  • Steve__T

    I don’t give a %@$& about what happens in Syria, I’m more worried about what’s going on here. Of the 321 comments so far I have seen very little posted on the subject of the Farm bill and its supporters. People need to eat more than they need to kill and maim someone in a foreign country.

    I am glad the Farm bill went down in flames.
    The House bill would have cut projected spending in farm and nutrition
    programs by nearly $40 billion over the next 10 years. Just over half,
    $20.5 billion, would come from cuts to the food stamp program, known as
    the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.

    Now how do we get our representatives to put together a decent bill to help the American people?

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      that’s the $36,000 question

  • Rudy_Cant_Fail

    Dear Tom,

    Great show.  I’m glad you touched on the death of James Gandolfini.  I have to say, for better or worse, of all the topics you discussed today, Gandolfini’s death is the thing people I know are talking about the most.  You should do a retrospective show on the Sopranos and what they say about America in the 2000s.

  • 1Brett1

    The Republicans continued their war on women this past week in Texas:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-19/texas-senate-passes-bill-that-may-close-abortion-clinics.html

    And to show that Republicans in the South aren’t the only Republicans to want America to get pushed back into the Dark Ages, this follows Wisconsin Republicans’ efforts to force women seeking abortions to get unnecessary ultrasounds (trans-vaginally). The bill is sitting on Gov. Scott Walker’s desk waiting to be signed. Protesters were at the state capitol in Madison to voice their opposition to the legislative session. The bill also defunds Planned Parenthood and effectively shuts down most of the remaining women’s health clinics in the state. 

    The Party of exclusion continues to make its “big tent” smaller and smaller with every legislative maneuver, whether on the state or federal level. Their war on women appears to be nation wide.

    • HonestDebate1

      Women care about jobs, the economy, taxes, education, the war on terror, religious freedom and NSA snooping. Many oppose abortion. They are not merely a life support system for a vagina as Democrats seem to believe. It’s insulting.

      • 1Brett1

        “They [women] are not merely a life support system for a vagina as Democrats seem to believe.” 

        Such a vulgar thing to say. But, it is much more accurate to say that many Republicans seem to believe women are baby making vessels. Again, you support every abortion restricting, Roe v. Wade undermining legislation Republicans create and condemn every Democratic effort to stop them, but you say you are pro-choice. I’d say that is dishonest.

          

        • HonestDebate1

          Vulgar is reducing the universe of women’s concerns to abortion. Vulgar is characterizing restrictions on abortion as a war on women which assumes ALL women support abortion. It’s objectifying. 

          I agree, when one puts into words the unmistakable sentiments of Democrats, those words are vulgar.

          I am pro-choice and i made quite clear I did not support Franks over and aver again. Can you read?

          • 1Brett1

            What nonsense are you prattling on about now? I was talking about legislation in Texas and Wisconsin. Franks is from Arizona. The legislation I mentioned in Texas and Wisconsin is state legislation; Franks is introducing federal legislation.

            Women’s reproductive rights are fundamental to women’s equality. You are really making a leap of logic to try saying this is reductionist and objectifies women. 

            Nope, you are not pro-choice, unless one considers a woman has the right to choose not to get pregnant/not to have sex being pro-choice. Unless one considers so many restrictions on abortion and reproductive choices being so limited they are non-existent/inaccessible being pro-choice.   

          • HonestDebate1

            “What nonsense are you prattling on about now?”

            “Again, you support every abortion restricting, Roe v. Wade undermining legislation Republicans create…”

            Try to keep up with what you write, my replies would make more sense. Thanks.

            It is objectifying to women to consider them as monolithic in their beliefs.  

            Make up whatever you want about my stance.

          • 1Brett1

            I was supposed to derive “…monolithic in their beliefs” as meaning “objectifying to women” from all of that nonsense? 

            Hehe…

          • HonestDebate1

            Yes, treating them as objects instead of thinking unique individuals.

          • 1Brett1

            That’s heinous!

  • hennorama

    The Snowden Affair gets stranger and stranger:

    “Edward Snowden lands in Moscow” CBS/AP/ June 23, 2013, 11:20 AM Updated 11:43 AM ET

    “MOSCOW – A former National Security Agency contractor wanted by the United States for revealing highly classified surveillance programs has landed in Moscow after fleeing Hong Kong.

    “Reporter Kevin O’Flynn told host Bob Schieffer on CBS’ “Face the Nation” that Edward Snowden landed at Moscow’s Sheremetyevo International Airport at around 9:15 a.m. ET. While his current whereabouts are unknown, most reports indicate he will not stay in Moscow, but will instead continue to another destination on Monday.

    “A spokesman for Russian President Vladimir Putin said he was unaware of Snowden’s whereabouts or travel plans. Diplomats from at least two South American nations mentioned as possible final destinations for Snowden – Ecuador and Venezuela – were seen at the Moscow airport, although it’s unclear whether they had any contact with Snowden.”

    See:http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57590616/edward-snowden-lands-in-moscow/

    If this is true, Snowden is getting some VERY bad advice. The more he runs, the worse it will be for him.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      if he can get to a non extradition country of if some nation grants him asylum then assassination is the only thing he needs to fear. 

      • HonestDebate1

        Yea, but who has a record of going into sovereign airspace with drones and targeting Americans for assassinantio…. er…. ugh… never mind.

        • 1Brett1

          Yeah, sure, Snowden’s big worry is being killed by a drone Obama ordered to assassinate him…you are a hoot of trashy propaganda. 

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

          perhaps that’s why he choose a country with thick jungles I hear the drones are not great at targeting through thick cover. the al queda suggest parking under trees. I wonder how american’s will react when oboma murders an American citizen who is not a Muslim 

  • HonestDebate1

    50 years ago today Martin Luther King Jr. gave his first “I have a dream speech”. Looking back on that great speech I can’t help but wonder what he would think about Obama’s America. 

    MLK:
    I have a dream this afternoon (Yeah) that my four little children, that my four little children will not come up in the same young days that I came up within, but they will be judged on the basis of the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

    Obama:
    I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites… I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother’s race.

    MLK:
    I have a dream this afternoon that one day right here in Detroit, Negroes will be able to buy a house or rent a house anywhere that their money will carry them and they will be able to get a job.

    The black unemployment rate in detroit is 18.7%, it’s 7.5% for whites.

    MLK:
    Yes, I have a dream this afternoon that one day in this land the words of Amos will become real and “justice will roll down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream.

    AG Holder dropped voter intimidation charges against the New Black Panthers and described them as “my people”. Obama said the Cambridge police acted stupidly and assumed racism when police questioned a man breaking into a house they did not know was his. Obama said if he had a son he would look like Trayvon Martin, thereby injecting race into the justice system where it did not exist as an issue. 

    MLK:
    I have a dream this evening that one day we will recognize the words of Jefferson that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. 

    Obama:
    “There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white… It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.”

    Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave.

    • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

      I have not been listening to beck lately does he still play excerpts  from oboma’s book? that is one of my favorite bits of his. you could do a similar comparison with oboma and other things oboma has said. daily show did a candidate bush vs president bush debate once that was a riot

      • HonestDebate1

        The Obama quotes did come from his book but I don’t listen to Beck very often. 

        I agree the ground is fertile for Obama v Obama but that’s too easy. I was trying to show how far removed Obama is from MLK’s dream. Obama is just awful for blacks. 

        • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy
          • HonestDebate1

            I don’t know about that but his remarks are clearly racist and all those who casually toss the term around are all of the sudden silent.

        • 1Brett1

          You and F.B. are two racist peas in a pod. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

            you are really desperate enough for attention to level vague charges of racism to get attention

          • HonestDebate1

            Get over it, you are reducing the term to nothing by throwing around so easily at those you have no clue about. How many time are you going to say it?

          • 1Brett1

            I don’t casually toss the term around. I just call those who are racist racist’s, like you, who are racist. F.B. may not be racist; I am not as familiar with him. He does say racist things sometimes, but he also jokes around, and does have a sense of humor, unlike you. You are humorless…and racist.

  • 1Brett1

    Fox News has hired Paula Deen to host a new cooking show for them:

    http://www.forwardprogressives.com/fox-news-hires-paula-deen-for-new-cooking-show/

    • HonestDebate1

      So you complain about Fox and post trash hit pieces like this? That’s rich. It does represent you well though. You harp on Southern white racism as if Northern Black racism doesn’t exist. How about just condemning racism? It shouldn’t surprise me after you wrote that what Paula Deen said was the “same thing” as murder.

      • 1Brett1

        You lie on all accounts in your comment, but this represents how you are not really into “honest debate.”

        You made that up about my saying what Paula Deen said was the same thing as murder. Did I say that northern racism doesn’t exist? I have never dismissed northern racism of any kind; you, on the other hand dismiss white southern racism all the time, specifically.

        • HonestDebate1

          Man up. You said Deen was newsworthy so I gave you a current example of a black murdering a white. You laughably characterized it as a defense of Deen then wrote:

          Your best defense is “blacks do it too”?

          I wrote: “You harp on Southern white racism as if Northern Black racism doesn’t exist.”

          Souther white racism is all you talk about. Your links are the same. You have never once wrote about black racism, in the North or anywhere else.

          Meanwhile, you dismiss the epidemic of black flash mobs terrorizing whites. I gave you a link and I can give you 100 more. 

          I dismiss blanket accusations of racism because of some stupid chef. It’s sick.

          What’s it like seeing the world and everything in it through the lens of race? What’s it like judging people by the color of their skin? Never mind, I don’t want to know.

          • 1Brett1

            Her story was in the news last week. This IS week in the news.  

            Your link to a black man shooting a white woman wasn’t about racism; it was about a robbery and shooting. It could have been racially motivated, but there was nothing indicating that. Just because a black person shoots a white person is it automatically racism? A Chicago women getting robbed and shot last week is nationally newsworthy? I guess if you want to gin up the idea that blacks commit violence against whites (for the purposes of racial backlash against blacks, Democrats, liberals,etc.), and you do seem to want to do that to further your agenda of perpetuating that there is an “epidemic of black on white racism and violence,” then your story is important to you and people like you who are racist. 

            I said a couple of times that Deen’s story of racism wasn’t a comparison to other stories of racism, but you had to make it so with a tit-for-tat approach so you could say another story was worse…which is such a nonsensical way of seeing things. That is the only way you can argue, though; it is what you call “honest debate.” It is what others call nonsense.

            But I’m still laughing at your getting reeled in. I especially thought your belief that Paula Deen getting a cooking show on Fox News being real was hysterical!

          • HonestDebate1

            The victim was a man not a woman and it was this week. So maybe I should just chalk it up to you not reading it but still dismissing it without knowing what to said. Typical. 

            I am ginning up nothing. Black on white violence is far more of a problem today than white on black violence. Far far more… and it’s excused. 

            Where do you get the idea I believed your link? I said it was trash. The link even said it wasn’t true, I actually read it. To think I would believe Fox would hire Deen is as crazy as believing I thought you did a 180 and liked your comment. Always assume the worst, based on spoon-fed or pre-conceived notions, take it to the bank and yuk it up secure in your fantasy. That makes sense.

            The reason this satire worked for you is because you think it’s totally within reason that Fox would hire Deen. Humor needs an element of truth to be funny. Since your notions are spoon-fed, that’s your truth. I know better, so I just call it trash.

          • 1Brett1

            “Her story was in the news last week. This IS week in the news.”

            “Her” was Paula Deen.

            Oh yeah, it was the woman’s husband (as if that really matters to your point) who was shot. What did that whole story, be it a woman or man as a victim, have to do with racism? 

            Your logic: blacks commit violence against whites, therefore black racism toward whites is an epidemic and all racism toward blacks by whites is to be ignored and treated as if it it doesn’t exist/means nothing. You, sir, are a racist. 

            It is funny, I’ll admit, that you present your beliefs as facts; I’ll give you that…

            You have to admit, also, it’s even funnier that I can make you argue with me all day over, for example, satirical pieces about Fox News, even after I’ve pointed out (yesterday) that I’m baiting you with such posts into arguing with me. Yes, you are reeled in every time. 

            I’ll check in later to see your reply.  

              

          • HonestDebate1

            Do you want to count replies and comments? 

            You just got your panties in a wad because I told the truth about being in your head and making you do tricks. You do it all the time.

            “blacks commit violence against whites, therefore black racism toward whites is an epidemic and all racism toward blacks by whites is to be ignored and treated as if it it doesn’t exist/means nothing”

            That’s insane. No one speaks out against racism more than me. Black or white. It’s the mobs that are an epidemic. It’s undeniable. I ignore nothing, you’re unbelievable.

            Speaking of ignoring, did you notice no libs want to touch Obama’s clearly militant racist remark below? They make Deen’s comment pale. BTW, that’s not a defense of her.

          • 1Brett1

            Um, I got  you going (intentionally) with the ‘Republican War on Women’ commentfirst and followed that up with the ‘forwardprogressives.com’ comment(that was a satirical piece about Fox News. You can make yourself believe something false if you want (you do all of the time anyway).DO you really think I read forwardprogressives.com? hooooohooooo, you are a tool to be reeled in. I played you all day. I bet I’ll do it over and over again too! Why? Because you are narcissistic and can’t help yourself. This has been funny (I’ve been under the weather with a stomach virus all day and the amusement of hooking you every time has eased the unpleasantness. Thanks, man.

          • hennorama

            Gregg Smith – you continue to claim various things about “Black on white violence” and “white on black violence” yet provide nothing to back up your claims.

            Please provide some evidence, and cite your sources and their methodologies.

          • jefe68

            Man up? You should try it some time, coward.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      This is hilarious, in that if you linked to The Onion I’d believe The Onion would write a piece like that. And if you linked to a news report, I’d believe someone at Fox News would be trying to make a martyr out of her.

      Perfectly down the middle. Well played, sir.

      • 1Brett1

        Thanks, TF. I thought it was very plausible. HornyforDebate thought it was real…that is until I pointed out to him that it was a joke. 

  • 1Brett1
    • William

      This is LBJ’s comment on IKE’s 1957 Civil Rights Bill

       “These
      Negroes, they’re getting pretty uppity these days and that’s a problem
      for us since they’ve got something now they never had before, the
      political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we’ve got to do
      something about this, we’ve got to give them a little something,
      just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference. For
      if we don’t move at all, then their allies will line up against us
      and there’ll be no way of stopping them, we’ll lose the filibuster
      and there’ll be no way of putting a brake on all sorts of wild
      legislation. It’ll be Reconstruction all over again.”

      • 1Brett1

        Well, William, that quote has only been stated and repeated as fact on neoconservative blogs. There is no historical verification for that quote. And, even among the right-wing bats who quote that, just before launching into the usual memes about how Democrats started the KKK, have created a plantation society for blacks, etc. (fill in whatever other nonsense you neocon bigots say about Democrats, and so on) they don’t say WHEN LBJ supposedly said that. (He left the Dixiecrats in 1937, by the way.) The neocons who say this quote is real, say he was secretly taped saying it at the White House, yet there is no evidence of the tape, that he said anything like it, etc.  

        Be that as it may, you neglect to mention LBJ’s Civil Rights legislation. But that notwithstanding, do you deny the history of the Dixiecrats? Are you just going to make up your own brand of revisionist history? 

        • William

           LBJ and most Democrats back then were pretty racist. That is how they were raised and fought civil rights bills until they knew the Republicans were going to win. The myth of the “Southern Strategy” has been debunked for years and you should read Ann Coulter’s book about it.

          • HonestDebate1

            The ignorance is astounding, it’s really quite sad.

          • jefe68

            You talking to yourself about yourself. It’s all about you.

          • 1Brett1

            Ann Coulter?! Hahahahahah…..Are you saying the Dixiecrats did not exist? They were a myth? …A lot of people back in first and middle part of the 20th century were racist. 

          • HonestDebate1

            I love Ann Coulter. Did you the book in question?

          • 1Brett1

            You love Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin, Herman Caine, Rush Limbaugh, Allen West, etc….blah, blah, blah…we get it: you are a neocn of the lowest hanging fruit variety. Yes, you are very anti-intellectual, anti-education, anti-government, anti-abortion, anti-democratic…yes, we understand. But….wait for it….you like freedom and liberty, and tri-corner hats, and, and liberty, and tea, and, and freedom, and this God-blessed Country, and freedom, liberty….

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            “Read Ann Coulter to debunk…”

            Submitted without comment.

          • HonestDebate1

            Please don’t tell me you don’t like Coulter either.

          • Bill_GKD

            And those racist Democrats were pretty much all conservative southerners who mostly jumped ship to the GOP after the civil rights era.

          • jefe68

            Ann Coulter? That’s hilarious.
            She’s a real scholar and has such great intellectual credentials. 

  • 1Brett1

    “Republicans, Please Tell Us Again How You’re The Fiscally Conservative Party…”http://www.forwardprogressives.com/republicans-please-tell-us-again-how-youre-the-fiscally-conservative-party/

    • hennorama

      1Brett1 – I also enjoyed Ezra Klein’s WONKBLOG post from Friday, titled “How Republicans stopped worrying and learned to love big government”

      FTA (opening two paragraphs):

      “The budget talks are foundering on a Republican demand that the federal government start predicting the deficit 30 years into the future. The immigration bill is hung up over Republican demands that the government achieve full control over the 1,969 mile border between the United States and Mexico. But the Obama administration’s had some good news on its spying: Republicans are pretty comfortable with the federal government tracking our calls and mining our e-mails.

      “Here’s what I don’t understand: How can Republicans who think themselves skeptical of the federal government also believe it capable of predicting the path of the economy 30 years into the future while locking down the border and picking through all electronic communications?”

      And the closing paragraph:

      “The question is how Republicans who think the government [is] farsighted enough to peer 30 years into our economic future, competent enough to lock down 2,000 miles of sand and brush and trustworthy enough to oversee a massive domestic surveillance program can keep alive the fiction that they are truly skeptical of the government. Or are they just skeptical of government when it’s doing things they don’t like?”

      See:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/21/how-republicans-stopped-worrying-and-learned-to-love-big-government/

      • 1Brett1

        Thanks, hennorama. I have often enjoyed Ezra Klein’s work…I also read Wonkblog and enjoy many of their other contributors’ pieces. Most of the writing is first rate. I didn’t get a chance to see much this week (a kind of arduous week-long  family reunion involving uncles, aunts–and their spouses–nieces, nephews, grand nieces, etc.)…I will check out the link.

        Really, the only overall issues bothering Republicans is that they don’t control every aspect of the government, that and their corporate friends don’t have free, unfettered rein to do whatever they want, making themselves (and their Republican friends) as much profit as they can (on the backs of everyone else and by destroying the environment; they don’t necessarily want to destroy the environment, but if that happens…). They really just want to destroy government, as well, so private enterprise can run the country.

  • 1Brett1
    • 1Brett1

      Religious conservatives are afraid to even respond to this.

  • 1Brett1
    • hennorama

      Talk about a “paid liar”.

      • 1Brett1

        Yeah, talk about needing to be investigated!

    • 1Brett1

      And not a single neocon would touch this!

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    in terms of his perpetuation of the racist war on drugs he is a racist. he could end it but chooses not to

  • HonestDebate1

    I’m not a huge Hannity fan but he had a great special tonight. He had a room chock full of black conservatives having an honest debate about race. I hate ya’ll missed it.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       I caught some of the discussion with black conservatives.  An impressive crowd.  Too bad it didn’t get more coverage.

  • HonestDebate1

    Some don’t believe my claims. That’s not unusual. What is unusual is the lack of curiosity.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulasI am appalled but not so concerned about racist comments from anyone but I strongly believe thought are not a crime. What I am concerned about is violence. The epidemic of blacks forming mobs and spreading mayhem is troubling. I believe it is enabled by a lack of outrage rooted in white guilt making excuses. Blacks are not expected to be good citizen by liberals. When there is clear evidence the media does all they cat to avoid honest debate. Here’s an example. Notice how the story never mentions race despite the video evidence. Why? And when a white guy finally comes in frame the freeze it:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRF-oKLUgpcNYC isn’t the only example.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODjWzozwMkYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LEsAQSH_LUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8Yo0XNYIoUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4F8ob9nlfYhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmvH8Vs8am0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdQewVBo3ghttp://katenews2day.com/2013/04/02/rising-black-flash-mobs-becoming-serious-concern-for-chicago-business-owners-and-residents/There are just too many examples to list.  

    • hennorama

      Gregg Smith – (AKA He Debates Not) – you wrote “Some don’t believe my claims.” What a bravely indirect response to my post.

      As I am the only poster who challenged your claims, (and who notably did NOT say I did not believe your claims, but rather simply asked you to “Please provide some evidence, and cite your sources and their methodologies” as any “honest” person would be able to do), I feel compelled to respond to your equine excrement.

      Why not be “honest” and admit that you have simply been parroting quotes from a 4-year-old online article that essentially consists of more than 20 links to other online articles?

      Why not be “honest” and admit that you have NO IDEA how these so-called “Federal Statistics of black on white violence” that you have repeatedly cited were derived?

      The reality is that you cannot explain the equine excrement about “Black on white violence” and “white on black violence” that you have repeatedly claimed.

      Is that what “honest” debate means to you – simply citing old claims that are not reputable, and that you cannot explain?

      I am challenging you to explain each claim that you made, in terms that anyone can understand. You seem to accept these claims as fact. Anyone who is “honest” relies on reputable sources, with data they can show to be true, after all.

      I’m calling “BS” and look forward to your defense of your claims.

      Show everyone how “honest” you are, Gregg Smith.

      I for one will NOT be holding my breath.

      • 1Brett1

        “Honest” means “those things people say that I agree with” to HorniestforMasterdeBaiter1. 

        • hennorama

          1Brett1 – I don’t know what Smith’s standards are (assuming he has any), which is why I asked him to demonstrate that he can explain the claims he makes.

          Smith claims to be “all about” what he calls “honest debate,” yet despite repeated requests for him to list his standards on the topic, he is instead bravely silent.

          As stated previously, I for one will not be holding my breath waiting for Smith to both explain his claims and to delineate his standards.

          • 1Brett1

            His comments about crime among black teenagers was in reply to a comment I made about Paula Deen making racist comments. He was trying to make some kind of statement that black on white racism is important and was trying to trump my comment about southern white racism. Of course, then he tried to say I dismissed black on white crime because I didn’t want to argue with him about incidences of crime, etc., and that I am racist for not responding to that, and that I am blind to what amounts to (what he says) is an epidemic, blah, blah…none of it makes sense to what I was saying. He was just using any flimsy excuse he could to turn my comment into something he could spend the day arguing about.

            As far as his links to articles and Youtube videos, many of them are sleazy individual accounts, some are local news stories, some are even opinions from some nutjob’s blog. His point is a forced one filled with anecdotes posing as “evidence.” As far as his “FBI data,” they looked taken out of context, cherry picked, and neocon propagandized to me; that notwithstanding, I don’t truly see his point. 

            The only way his replies to my comment about Deen make sense is if a) he was trying to change the subject into something he felt he already had honed into a pat argument. b) he gets touchy about any white southerner being called a racist (perhaps that hits too close to home for him?)

          • hennorama

            1Brett1 – While I loathe spending time discussing Smith and his tendencies and predilections, it does seem that “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

            Your various exchanges with Smith over the past few days were amusing, but the thing that should have jumped out to any intelligent reader was “Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa.”

            Such a disparity is highly unlikely, to say the least.

            FYI, the link Smith presented as some sort of evidence of the veracity and validity of his claims was an article on the examiner.com website, from August 1, 2009 (which I had already read and knew was, to be polite, full of excrement). One of the links in the article was to a site called “La Griffe Du Lion” (the lion’s paw, en Francais). Here’s a quote from the direct link in Smith’s link. It’s from a newsletter from November 1999:

            “CRIME IN THE HOOD

            “Violent victimization of whites by blacks is modeled in a racially mixed inner-city neighborhood. Its evolution is traced from the first black to move in, to the last white who moves out. The probability of a white being violently attacked is developed as a function of a neighborhood’s racial composition. It is shown to increase nonlinearly, approaching unity as a neighborhood becomes predominately black.”

            And later in the “article”:

            “The data

            “The data reveal two causes of white victimization by blacks. First, a black is 3 times more likely than a white to commit violent crime. However, as a neighborhood turns black, this factor could increase black-on-white violence at most by a factor of 3, and then only when a neighborhood is virtually all black. The observed level of white victimization is much too high to blame on general tendencies of blacks to be violent. A more important reason is simply that blacks prefer white victims.”

            What a load of equine excrement.

            Of course, one would expect this from Smith, who is an expert in equine excrement.

            See:http://lagriffedulion.f2s.com/hood.htm

            I do NOT recommend reading the article above without having a bathing facility nearby. It is truly execrable.

    • 1Brett1

      I particularly laughed at the “katenews2day.com” one which is a blog from an Obama hater who just spouts off her opinions…yeah, that’s a great source of information. And, what are the rest of them, YouTube videos?! The first one was about a mob descending on a newsstand to steal from it, injuring (arm broken) a bystander (oh yeah, that’s irrefutable evidence of black on white racism). The second one was about black teens vandalizing a Walmart (oh yeah, irrefutable proof of black on white racism). The third one was a group of black kids shoplifting at 7-11 (oh yeah, that’s black on white racism). The fourth video was about a group of black teens stealing jeans from a store (oh yeah, that is black on white racism). In fact, all of the videos but one pertain to stealing, one involved gang violence. They all involve mobs of black teens. The last one is a blog opinion piece. I guess this constitutes irrefutable evidence of an epidemic of black on white racism? Do you even know what racism means? You’re quite the propagandist, and a sucker for a good “blacks gone wild” story too. Anytime a black person commits a crime, that is racism to you? So, anytime a white person says something racist you come back with, “yeah, that doesn’t mean anything, but what about some black kids stealing from a 7-11, now that’s racism!” You really are a racist. 

      If you wanted to talk about criminality among black teens, that’s one thing, but your whole meme started out when I made a comment about Paula Deen saying and doing racist things. Wow.  

      • HonestDebate1

        Dude, how many “forward progressive” links did you post? A hate site painting the entire restaurant industry and the South as racist with nothing but opinion. You have some gall.

        I posted youtube videos were because videos are more in your face an the messenger could;t be blame. But i also posted FBI statistics out the wazoo, you ignored it. I mean how does one say the links were not about violence?

        “Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.Blacks are three times more likely to use a hand gun, and twice more likely to use a knife.Hispanics commit three times more violent crimes than whites, but the statistics are nebulous because sometimes they are classified as white, so it could be far higher.The best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percent of the population that is black and Hispanic.Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.”

        Those numbers are backed up by the FBI stats, there are 20 or 30 links in the one link alone and not a peep from you. 

        How on earth can you get so worked up about what Paula Deen said 10 years ago with a gun her head and excuse this? 

        I don’t like to devolve into name calling and have resisted saying this despite your shallow nastiness buts let’s be clear, you are the racist. You are the worst kind of racist. You are despicable. Just keep your head in the sand. Meanwhile, I love humanity, I don’t judge people by the color of their skin, I don’t care a wit about race. Obama is the worst thing to happen to race relations since slavery.

        • 1Brett1

          You got worked up over my post about Paula Deen; I just posted something that happened last week in the news. You associated it with crime among black teens, which the two are unrelated. I didn’t excuse anything, but what you posted about was crime among black teens, not murder, not racism, not anything you were pretending the links were.

          Data can be tricky business. Unlike you, I am not inclined to repeat data without seeing how it was compiled (just because it might reinforce my beliefs). I haven’t had time to see if or how the data you might have been cherry picked/taken out of context. Just because it comes from a reputable source doesn’t mean it wasn’t given a necon spin.

          Again, you are improperly characterizing what my comments are saying, you are ignoring all of my points, making false characterizations about them and why I haven’t replied to some aspects of your posts…on and on. You are just a debate whore and a dimestore punk when it comes to having a conversation. 

          • HonestDebate1

            You’re just too stupid to see truth, it’s been established for a long time. I feel sure the blog doesn’t need all this BS. There are plenty of fair-minded liberals around here, I’m done with you.

          • 1Brett1

            Yeah, blah, blah, blah…you are “done” until the next time I post something. 

            I do agree, however, that this forum doesn’t need your BS. 

          • jefe68

            And you think your intelligent?

            Sparky you need to take long look in the mirror. Because you are many things, smart is not one of them.

        • hennorama

          Gregg Smith – good thing I didn’t hold my breath, as you have not explained a single one of the claims you made about “Black on white violence” and “white on black violence.” All you have done is post a link to a four-year-old article that made the claims that you parroted, said four-year-old article essentially consisting of other links to online articles and websites.

          I’ll simple repeat my initial request and subsequent challenge:

          Please provide some evidence, and cite your sources and their methodologies.

          I am challenging you to explain each claim that you made, in terms that anyone can understand. You seem to accept these claims as fact. Anyone who is “honest” relies on reputable sources, with data they can show to be true, after all.

          I’m calling “BS” and look forward to your defense of your claims.

        • jefe68

          You are the king of inanity.

    • HonestDebate1
      • HonestDebate1
        • Bill_GKD

          Considering that there were 3,645 race-based hate crimes identified by the FBI in 2011 and that “71.9 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-black bias”, it would seem that the epidemic is against blacks, not whites.

          http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2011/tables/table-1

          I also think that your position that blacks are on the rampage because
          liberals don’t expect them to be good citizens is easily one of the
          stupidest things that I’ve ever seen you post, Gregg, and that is really
          saying something.

          • HonestDebate1

            “I also think that your position that blacks are on the rampage because 
            liberals don’t expect them to be good citizens”

            I don’t think I said that but it has merit. Certainly liberals don’t expect them to be good citizens, that much is clear. Here’s my thing Bill, the debate about race is not honest. We cannot talk frankly about reality without being labeled racist. So these mobs are tolerated based on skin color. This enables it but I wouldn’t say it is the cause. Just look at the astonishing dismissal of race motivated violence in these comments. Just look at the Sgt. Shultz like denial of what cannot be denied. And look at entire threads making excuses, dismissing and deflecting by discussing me. ME! Who cares what I think? I’m talking about racial hatred driven violence. We don’t have mobs of whites going around preying on blacks to the same extent at all. And the black on black crime is also epidemic. Chicago is a clear example. 

            I say clean’m out. Go after gangs with no mercy, prosecute the hoodlum flash mobs to the fullest extent of the law with no regard whatsoever to the color of their skin. Some would say that’s racist and those who do are excusing murder and mayhem because they turn the perpetrators into victims. It’s upside down.

          • 1Brett1

            Who is dismissing crime? Who is saying that a mob of black teens descending on a 7-11 and stealing should not be prosecuted? Who is giving crimes committed by black teens a pass because of the color of their skin? It is all a made up characterization by you, a straw man, so you can argue your point (whatever that is). You make as much sense as neocons saying they can’t celebrate Christmas because liberals have made war on Christmas. 

          • Bill_GKD

            “I believe it is enabled by a lack of outrage rooted in white guilt
            making excuses. Blacks are not expected to be good citizen by liberals.”

            That is pretty close to what I said that you said.

            Is it your contention that the police are not going after gangs because they are composed of minorities.  Again, that’s a pretty ridiculous position, but it is to be expected.

          • 1Brett1

            Well, Bill, it doesn’t matter what he said, it’s what he meant and how it will always be different than whatever you will say he said, no matter how accurately you describe what he said. He’s an enigma wrapped in a riddle hiding behind a mystery. He’s a ghost, a puff of smoke, a whisper of wind calling out eternal truth…(Do you think he wears a cape? I do!)

          • jefe68

            He gets lost in his own mind.
            Gets dizzy just trying to keep up with his own thoughts. 

            Sad case really.

          • jefe68

            You must have some kind of short term memory issues.

            “Blacks are not expected to be good citizen by liberals.”
            You posted this dumb ass cow poo.

        • 1Brett1

          whitereference.blogspot? A blog for White Nationalists…hoohoo. Oh and the post was from a guy who sent the host a note about an incident or some such crap…yeah, that’s a reputable source. 

          To tell you the truth, you still haven’t made your case for an epidemic. You need to provide more links to Youtube videos about violence in bad neighborhoods, and comments from bigoted blog forums, etc….oh, and don’t report any of the crime by white people in any of those areas; you need to stick to reporting crime by black people, that’ll make you seem less racist. 

          By the way, do any of these black criminals cook or work in southern restaurants? How about ‘Southern’ restaurants? Maybe if Paula Deen or her brother Bubba got ahold of them, they’d see what’s what by White southern…, er, Southerners. Then we’d get this crime by blacks under control, aye?!

        • 1Brett1

          Man, between this epidemic of blacks randomly ganging up in white people and assaulting them, and the government out to get you for what you post online, you need to stay huddled in your shack in the woods with your gun in hand and your computer turned off…don’t want to take any chances. Why, your bravery by risking your safety to report these injustices is incredible!

          • jefe68

            He truly is the king of rubes.
            I thin this guy is kind of his head.

    • jefe68

      Really? This is the kind of BS you believe?

      “Blacks are not expected to be good citizen by liberals.”

      If I make a comment, such as all conservatives are racist, misogynist  bigots who hate science and are obsessed with having sex with animals, I bet you would be a tad pissed off. 

      Wait a minute, A lot of right wingers are racist, misogynist  bigots who hate science and are obsessed with having sex with animals.

  • ExcellentNews

    The “Party of Small Government” seems to have a new crackpot project – spending 30 BILLION to build a border wall that you can see from space, and the main effect of which would be to keep illegal immigrants FROM crossing back…

    Wow! But I guess that’s a BIG improvement from the party that spent 2 TRILLION rebuilding Iraq (before even learning of the existence of Sunnis and Shias…)

    So, using Republican math, we can say that the Republican party saved 1.97 TRILLION since 2008, and these savings should be given to our “job creators”…

  • Jasoturner

    I just streamed this episode this morning on the way to work.  Is it just me, or is Trudy Rubin one of the most unpleasant guests ever to visit the show?  Interrupting a caller has got to be a new low.  That, and the commentary dripping with condescension made her very difficult to listen to.  Or so I thought.

    • 1Brett1

      She’s that way every time she’s been on the show.

    • Michele

       The caller attacked her directly.  She had every right to push back. 

      • Jasoturner

        She had absolutely no right to interrupt someone who only has a few seconds on air to make their comment.  She was simply too self important to wait her turn. 

        I don’t see where I said she had no right to push back.

        Nice try.

  • Michele

    We don’t have money for education, healthcare, tax reform, improved infrastructure, alternative energy sources but there will be a surplus that can be spent on a wall?  Really? What a clown!

  • mazyloo

    While there seems to be worthwhile things about the farm bill, the one thing I have not heard discussed is the fact that one part of it allows the slaughter of American horses for meat production. 
    It will grant licenses in 2-3 states if it is passed. The “King amendment”This is reprehensible to so many of us. I know – we slaughter cattle and chickens and are slowly coming around to more humane ways of this.If you have never seen the video of a horse being slaughtered,it may convince you. Intelligent  and gentle, horses have helped humans for centuries.Can you mention this in a future discussion on this Farm bill?I think it’s one of those things that people, unaware now,  will look back and wonder how we let that happen.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Jul 31, 2014
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The US and Europe face off against Russia. Are we looking at Cold War II? Something hotter?

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