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The Brothers Tsarnaev

We’ll look deep into their worlds for clues, motives, and the latest on the investigation.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev

This combination of undated photos shows Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, left, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19. (AP)

The manhunt is over in Boston.  The funerals have begun.  Now the question of why looms so large.

Why would two young men years in this country allegedly set down bombs in the middle of men and women and children and exhausted runners and calmly walk away as their explosions tore into life and limb?  Why?

There is more that people want to know.  How would they have accumulated the guns and bomb plans and impetus to act?  To kill?  How will the surviving brother be questioned and tried?  But above all, why?

This hour, On Point:  we’re thinking about the brothers Tsarnaev.

- Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Eric Schmitt, covers terrorism and national security issues for the New York Times. (@ericschmittnyt)

Karen Greenberg, counterterrorism expert and the director of the Center for National Security at Fordham University Law School.

Kevin Brock, Retired FBI Assistant Director for Intelligence and former Principal Deputy Director of the National Counterterrorism Center.

Kermit Roosevelt, professor of law at the University of Pennsylvania.

From Tom’s Reading List

The Boston Globe “Boston officials said today the Tsarnaev brothers were prepared to launch more violent attacks before their odyssey of terror was disrupted last week — given the large quantity of explosives and ammunition they possessed — but that all evidence thus far indicates they were acting alone and were not part of a broader conspiracy.”

NBC News “As students trickled back to the university on Sunday where surviving Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, has been enrolled as a sophomore, the teenager’s classmates expressed disbelief over his involvement in the attack and suggested that he may have been the victim of ‘brainwashing’ by his older brother.”

The New York Times “Tamerlan Tsarnaev had already found religion by the time he landed in Dagestan, a combustible region in the North Caucasus that has become the epicenter of a violent Islamic insurgency in Russia and a hub of jihadist recruitment. What he seemed to be yearning for was a home.”

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  • Wm_James_from_Missouri

    Less speculation and more investigative police and intelligence work is needed before any of us should speak on these tragic events.
    I do have a question, though. Is anyone aware, of where, all those stray bullets went during these shootouts ? Was anyone else injured or property damaged ? I do not understand why so many well trained law enforcement officers have to fire so many rounds at suspects. They practice shooting, regularly. Our officers need smart weapons.

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      I believe they hit into houses and cars. Luckily, no one was injured in those houses.

    • brettearle

      Law enforcement spends a great deal of time in details that do not require the actual use of firearms.

      Officers take pride–and sometimes it’s more extreme than pride–in preserving the Law.

      The one thing that distorts their judgement–and that they often take extremely personally–is a suspect, or fugitive, who tries to elude their grasp.

      When they should shoot to stymie or thwart an escape, they often can shoot, impulsively, without reservation and strategy.

      They do not always think–simply to inflict non life-threatening injury or to blowout tires.

      HOWEVER, in this case, the police had to have assumed that the suspects still had explosives.

      Either grenades, pressure cooker bombs, and/or pipe bombs, I believe, had already been hurled at them.

      In such a dramatic situation, I’d have to give Law Enforcement, somewhat of a pass.

      But I can’t think of many situations where I would give them such a pass.

  • Expanded_Consciousness

    I’m really sick of this ‘older brother brainwashed him’ narrative that so many people seem so attracted to. It is utter nonsense. Part of our culture’s love of playing victim. If at 19 years old, an older brother had come up to me and said ‘Let’s kill people’, I would have told him things I can’t type here, then I would have gone and called the authorities. This 19 year-old knew what he was doing when he set-off bombs and shot at police officers. He is the author of his own actions. Stop being so stupid.

    • brettearle

      You’re ultimately right.

      But people influence others.

      Otherwise, for example, there would have been no Jamestown.

      • Shag_Wevera

        Touche’!

      • 1Brett1

        Yes, exactly. While hearing about such overwhelming and absolute influence of one over another or others often leaves us scratching our heads, such strong influences do exist. 

        All of that said, it doesn’t really matter what the reason is, the suspect should accept responsibility for his actions. In Jamestown, the children who drank the Koolaid were innocent victims (and perhaps if there had been others who didn’t know the Koolaid was poisoned), and that is sad and unfair. However, of the ones who did know the Koolaid was poison and who followed Jones, doing everything he said, they accepted responsibility for being influenced. Charles Manson followers who murdered for him accepted responsibility. Being an extreme follower, so to speak, may offer some explanation, but it also means consequences can not be, and should not be, skirted. 

        I, personally, don’t believe in the death penalty and would rather see the suspect (if convicted) sent to prison for life without parole, but if he is convicted and receives the death penalty, that is the law and so be it.

        • brettearle

          Our comments about Jamestown and Manson can offer a dimension for greater analysis, about the issue we discussed in an earlier thread, with regard to what drives a person to the brink of messianic violence.

          The charismatic nature of Jones and Manson could well attract impressionable followers.

          Hitler is the extreme example.

          There is, then, the possibility that Al Qaeda, being the radical form of Islamic Fundamentalism, has that kind of magnetic cult-like appeal.

          Forensic practitioners, with a side emphasis on cults, could well be informative here.

          Do you know of Dr. Robert J. Lifton’s works?

          • 1Brett1

            No.

      • hennorama

        Pssst … brettearle – you probably mean “Jonestown” not “Jamestown”.

        • brettearle

          Fact-checker henn to the rescue, yet again…

          Are the 3 dots OK?

          • hennorama

            brettearle – Mais bien sûr, monsieur. Les trois points sont absolument parfaites.

            “Jamestown” just leapt out at me as incorrect in the context. No worries. It happens to all of us at some point, at least so I’ve heard. ;-)

          • brettearle

            Jah swee dee solee, maw
            vieyou!

            [a phonetic FigureOut-er]

          • hennorama

            brettearle – nothing at all to be sorry about, but there certainly are many things to marvel over.

            Best wishes.

          • brettearle

            You missed the funny part….

            Of the many things to marvel over, my Humor is one of them.

          • hennorama

            brettearle – indeed I missed the cryptic funny part. Humor “in here” is seldom easy to pull off. Regardless, I remain curious. Please don’t leave the funny part in the crypt. ;-)

    • jefe68

      That’s what I’ve been thinking and I too would have contacted the authorities. 

      Mind you look at Whitey Bulger’s brother William. A lot of unanswered questions in that relationship. His other brother John helped Whitey get fake ID’s. One can never tell about family dynamics. 
      Also it would seem that they were very close.

    • stephenreal

      Of course you do realize the average human brain is not fully developed to around the age of 24. This why Insurance companies have all changed how and why they handle younger drivers when they first get their driver’s license.

      You are scientifically decades behind the times.

    • William

       Very true. The younger brother attended a very good high school and is attending a very good college. He was no dummy.

  • Unterthurn

    What a guessing game. 
    They don’t know yet. 
    This is too early to seriously discuss. 
    A show for the conspiracy theorists.

    • Shag_Wevera

      Does this qualify as Haiku?

      • JGC

        I was thinking the same thing, Zenmaster Shag.

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      Indeed, so much more will be known on a week. I can’t wait for the two hour news specials that will air later this week… NOT!

      Then there will be the made for TV movie… Like we need to relive this.

      We are obsessed with instant gratification and pandered to by tv and radio… No matter how morbid the issue…

  • Shag_Wevera

    I’m not convinced that knowing their motives solves any problems.  Disaffected people turning to violence is the story.  A million different back stories and rationalizations are out there.  Why do people lash out?  Can anything be done to stop or prevent it?

    I’ll bet a rational and compassionate world where man truly tried to help his fellow man instead of abusing him would have less of this violence.

    Answer this:  Who is harming or abusing you?  Your boss, the government, the wealthy, criminals…  Who is your ally?  Your family, friends, maybe clergy…

    Our friends are biological, chemical, or spiritual.  Our enemies are systemic and bureaucratic.

    Is there any way to have a more rational and compassionate world? 

  • Ed75

    Some say that these two men were psychopaths or sociopaths or deranged, but that’s not the case. They were accomplished and well liked.
    Pope Benedict warned us about the dictatorship of relativism where no absolute truth is acknowledged. One problem with relativism is first the human mind is made for and seeks absolute truth and certain knowledge.
    These two men were raised in a society of relativism. When they found a group that claimed to have absolute truth – Islamic fundamentalists – they latched onto it like a drowning man to the shore, they latched onto it uncritically.
    The problem is not the claim that absolute truth exists and is knowable, but getting the truth right. They latched onto a heresy, with disastrous results.
    It’s like the Nazis, they weren’t crazy, they were just wrong.

    • brettearle

      I see your point.

      But by using Pope Benedict as a spokesman, for your point, flies in the face of acknoweldging the legitimacy of other world religions which have been with us for many centuries.

      I do not believe that it is the fault of other legitimate religions–including Islam–if the Pope warns us of the “dictatorship of relativism”.

      Al Qaeda is a malignant bastardization of Islam.

      It ISN’T Islam.

      • Ed75

        Yes, I agree, it’s not Islam. But Islam doesn’t have a central defining authority and varies with different people. Still, although it’s not Islam, it does make a claim to absolute truth, to metaphysical truth.

        • brettearle

          Truth, for many, can come from one source:
          God.

          But the path to God can come via disparate pathways.

          Christianity also makes a claim of absolute Truth.

          But billions of people who have followed other legitimate religions, throughout the history of the world, don’t necessarily agree.

          For me, it’s more of a question of whether one follows a belief in absolute Truth that is really directing that person away from Truth–by being seduced to follow a certain path, via an illegitimate religion.

          Al Qaeda, very likely, has no facets that are mindful of legitimate sacred customs.

      • donniethebrasco

         Islamic peoples in the US should be sponsoring dinners at Churches and Synagogues around the country, or the other way around, allowing Christians, Jews, and other to bring them food to feast in fellowship in their religious institutions.

        • brettearle

           Good idea.

          • JobExperience

            Every Muslim owes Donnie a doughnut?

    • 1Brett1

      You sound as if there is either absolute truth (for which you most likely mean a Christian God, Jesus, heaven, life ever after, etc.) or their is moral relativism…how skewed the Christian/Catholic lens.

      • brettearle

        Sadly, the Christian prism can sometimes be quite distorted.

      • Ed75

        Well, there is absolute truth or there isn’t. Our society likes to say that there is no absolute truth. But then one has the human desire for truth. Once we decide that absolute truth exists, we can discuss what it is.

        • 1Brett1

          Name three absolute truths (given there may be semantics involved, or that “absolute” may be defined differently by people, e.g., our lives are absolute in that we only live in our bodies for a finite period of time, yet to a Christian life is eternal, and so on).

          • Ed75

            We’re kind of getting off the topic of the legitimate human striving for absolute truth, and the danger of following untruth, but a long list of them would be the Catholic Creed, part of revealed truth.

            Other religions correspond to absolute truth to the extent that they agree with the revealed truth of Catholicism, and can be paths to God, as God wills that all come to salvation. 

            As someone else said, Al Qaeda has little in it in common with legitimate religion, which is another way of saying it has little or nothing in common with the revealed truth of Catholicism.

            I guess I’m unapologetically Catholic.

          • 1Brett1

            I figured, but thanks for responding, Ed. :-)

            (But you do see my point about how absolute truth can be defined differently depending how one sees certain examples in our human experience?)

            P.S. -And here I was worried, when I said name three, your going to say, “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit”!

          • Ed75

            I guess here I would need an example, of course acknowledging the subjective experience of events.

          • 1Brett1

            E.g., to an ahteist, say, life ends at death, which is absolute. To a Christian, life is everlasting, which to them that is also absolute. This is one example.

          • Ed75

            An atheist and a Christian could see the same event and make a claim about it, an absolute truth claim, but their claims would differ. I guess what I mean is that there is an absolute truth independent of the beliefs of individuals, so, like these killers, one can get it wrong.

          • Yar

            Ed, thank you for your willingness to engage in conversation.  Your growth is good.  I feel my prayers for you are working.  No one religion has a lock on crazy.  In fact trying to rationalize crazy will only make one crazier.  The church has a pretty checkered past, we should acknowledge that as part of our faith.  Love your neighbor, is a beginning of truth. When we hate, truth is obscured. We should love the sinner more than the innocent.  That is a hard truth to swallow. The question for today’s show; what made these men crazy?  Were they not loved by their neighbors? If not, who is at fault? Think about this as you interact with your neighbor?  We have met the enemy and it is us.  Appropriate for Earth Day don’t you think?

            http://nzesylva.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/pogo-31.jpg?w=230&h=300

    • Brent Coulthard

       The problem is PRECISELY the claim that absolute Truth exists: which truth is correct?  Mine? Mine!  This, it would appear, is direct outcome of clinging to a belief in absolute truth-in a society that prizes the respect for diversity of beliefs, and not ‘relativism’, in the pejorative sense you use.  The undeveloped, immature human mind may seek for absolutes, but the human mind cultivated to thrive in a modern complex culture regards all knowledge as provisional. 
      Under the circumstances, they may not fit the clinical description of sociopaths, but look at what they’ve done, look at their behavior.  No rationalization is justified.

      • Ed75

        Of course to say that there is no absolute truth, or that it’s inaccessible, is a claim about absolute truth. To quote Chesterton humorously, ‘How is it that you know so much about absolute truth, that you know that it is unknowable?”

    • J__o__h__n

      Typical that your claim isn’t that there isn’t absolute truth but that these religious extremists had the wrong version of it.

  • Steve__T

    There are a lot of other things to discus, than guessing about thees two brothers.

    The dysfunction of Washington would be more on point.
     An analysis by The Guardian and the Sunlight Foundation found all but three of 45 senators who torpedoed gun-control measures in the Senate this week have received money from firearms industry lobbyists.  The NRA saw a spike in donations after the December shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, registering $2.7 million during January and February.

    CISPA, the Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act passed the House, some say it would violate privacy rights. Companies including AT&T and Comcast have backed it, and the American Civil Liberties Union are against CISPA, saying it would create a loophole in all existing privacy laws, allowing companies to share Internet users’ data with the National Security Agency, part of the Department of Defense, and the biggest spy agency in the world — without any legal oversight. NOW that’s something to discuss, because it’s disgusting.

    The Texas Fertilizer Plant That Exploded Was Last Inspected by OSHA in 1985. This is on point, something that should be looked into and talked about.

    OK my Rant is over.

    • brettearle

      Won’t the Government have to demonstrate documented probable cause?

      And, I’d be surprised if “On Point” doesn’t get to the Explosion.

      You raise two good points.

    • donniethebrasco

       The talk today will be about West, TX.

      The narrative of the radical Islamic brothers is not what the left wants to talk about.  The left will try to ignore the radicalization of Islam and will wait for this to blow over and try to minimize it until we forget.

      • Benjamin Quigley

        …but the talk today is about the Tsarnaev brothers…

      • John_in_Amherst

         how do you know what “the left” wants, and do you care to comment on groups like the Westboro Baptists, the KKK or white supremacists and how they seek to radicalize Christianity?  

        • Trond33

          You hit an important point here – Christian extremists are no different than Muslim extremists.  Both cut from the same cloth. Christian extremists have in the past, and will in the future, terrorized society. Given the opportunity, extremists of any flavor find it easy to use violence to underscore their message. 

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Tell us more about what you know about “the left”.

        It’s mildly diverting.

        • JobExperience

           He’s the “One-armed Bandit.”

  • donniethebrasco

    Somebody from the Obama administration has to get to Boston to release poor Dzhokhar from custody.  He hasn’t been read his Miranda warning.

    Oh, wait, he had an unlicensed gun.  Send him to jail for life.

  • donniethebrasco

    It is interesting that these guys went back to their regular life; as if nothing happened.

    They realized that their goose was cooked when the pictures came out.

    They were never identified.  Through their actions at MIT, the gave themselves away.

    • brettearle

      They went back to their lives–because they were apparently planning other attacks.

      Stupidly, they had no understanding of:

      how advanced technology is

      and

      how conspicuous they were in their actions–especially when they did not flee the area like so many others, but, instead, they walked away.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    In the US, about 30 people are killed every day by guns (Gun injuries are about 5 times that.)

     

    The Boston Marathon Bombing was tragic, and many victims are still suffering, but since the bombing, over 250 people have been killed by guns and maybe 1100 wounded… and for this there is no end in sight.

    Although over 90% of the people support background
    checks,the NRA coerced a majority of senators to eviscerate recent gun
    legislation.

    How about devoting 1 show a day or a week eviscerating those
    senators and congressmen who are pawns of the gun lobby.

    That begs the question, can you eviscerate someone who is already gutless?

    • hennorama

      MMTCW – you’re referring to the approximate number of Homicides via firearms/day. It’s actually more like 88 people/day who die from injuries resulting from the use and misuse of firearms, and another 202 nonfatal firearms injuries/day in the US. About 2 of every 3
      deaths are Suicides.

      (BTW – There is an excellent discussion titled “Gun Access & Suicide” on the HuffPostLive site. It’s notably NOT about firearms control, but rather about reducing suicides involving firearms. One point that was made repeatedly was about the “success” rate of suicide attempts involving firearms being 85% vs. pills being “successful” 2% of the time.

      See:http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gun-control-and-suicide/511d16142b8c2a455e000475? )

      So on an average day in the US, about 290 people are wounded or killed as a result of firearms-related injuries.

      The number of deaths includes Homicides (including Justifiable Homicides), Suicides and Unintentional/Accidental deaths.

      CDC reports preliminary data for 2011 showing 32,163 firearms-related deaths, and final data for 2010 showing 31,672 firearms-related deaths.

      See:http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf (Table 2 on page 19)

      Further, CDC reports 73,883 “Overall Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries” for 2011, and 73,505 in 2010.

      See:http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

      and:http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html (Go to Section2. then select “Firearm” then [Submit Request] under Section 3.)

      Exactly why I’m tell a CodeWarrior how to use a website escapes me right now – my apologies.

  • Gregg Smith

    I hope there is no sympathy for these two sacks of human debris. I get the feeling that at some point someone will give a bit of credence to the idea that America is to blame.

    • stephenreal

      The glory of Christianity is to conquer by forgiveness. You heathen.

      • Gregg Smith

        Sorry, I hold a grudge but I am a heathen.

        • stephenreal

          Touche’

    • 1Brett1

      “I get the feeling that at some point someone will give a bit of credence to the idea that America is to blame.”

      Have you gone soft on us? Where’s the diatribe about Obama not being straight with Americans about al Qaeda’s imminent, constant danger, thereby playing a strong role in our citizens’ complacency which results in lax vigilance toward Muslims acting suspicious? Man, come on, your not even trying this morning…you must’ve had a rough night’s sleep. You sounded cranky in another comment to me earlier today on another forum and now this? Is everything alright?  

      • Gregg Smith

        At this point I am still reluctant to criticize the way Obama has handled this. We’ll see how it goes. 

      • brettearle

         Brett–

        [Are you willing to mention the Forum?  If you are drawn to it, there's a chance I might be interested in it.]

  • Ed75

    At the same time, one can point out that the Kermit Gosnell abortion case, an abortionist on trial for 8 counts of murder inthe bloody deaths of one mother and seven babies after birth, hasn’t received media attention at all. And nore people died in that case.

    • stephenreal

      You are complaining on the wrong thread dude.

      • jefe68

        Nah, he does this all the time on every topic.

        • stephenreal

          true that homes

    • brettearle

      That may be–but your point primarily comes across as you furthering your own agenda of religious dogma.

      The Brothers Tsarnaev is a giant story, for obvious reasons–and it surely does not need the sort of comparison and contrast that you are attempting to make.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      “Hasn’t received media attention at all.”

      Har dee fncking har.

      But let’s play that game. I, too, wonder where the media was asking why the Penna lege hadn’t driven away real abortion providers, leaving working-class women at the mercy of this quack.

  • stephenreal

    Pretty damn eery just how much this case aligned with the “lone wolf” scenario right down to the Islamist extremist tip. The younger brother was just conned and lead into the ride going out on a blaze of glory.

    • donniethebrasco

       How did they get hand grenades?

      Were these bombs the first ones they built?  Did they build others?  Where did they test them?

      • stephenreal

        6 months in the caucuses is longtime to learn how to build and test these rudimentary weapons that were hand fashioned together. In my explosives experience these IED’s seemed amateurist in the way they were built and deployed, but hey that’s just my opinion.

        • jefe68

          Which is what it is, an opinion.

          • stephenreal

            as is yours, and his, and this whole thread Sherlock. You have a clear command of the obvious. Thank You.

          • jefe68

            You are welcome.
            You are making a lot of comments that seem like more than opinions.

            You have to love the internet, lets people say things they never would in person.

          • stephenreal

            some subjects or better then others

  • stephenreal

    This is some of the most impressive law work in the last 20 years 
    I’ve ever seen. The Boston marathon case is the new model of how to employ the community to help out in criminal cases. Unprecedented on this scale and level in my opinion.

  • donniethebrasco

    Just wait till there father and mother get here.

    • stephenreal

      They abandon them to an uncaring uncle whom let them run wild and to raise themselves.

      • JobExperience

        ” Free Range Kids” is the  11 o’clock topic on DRShow  today.

    • William

       For refugees they certainly do have enough money to travel back and forth. Their terrorist kids were living in a very expensive city. How are they making a living?

  • William

    Is the major clue that the Muslim terrorists are winning? 

    • stephenreal

      The real question in my mind is there something fundamentally wrong with 21st century Islam?

      • Gregg Smith

        Good question. 

      • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

        I think the better question is, “Is there something wrong with 21st century society?”

        We have politicians calling for arming school teachers!!!

        Recent polls show 34% of those polled want an official state religion namely Christianity. Which Christianity?!?!?!

        This is madness.

        • stephenreal

          Yeah but the Christians ain’t strappin up with Jihadist tactics and doing these crazy acts across the West.

          • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

            ‘They’ are everywhere.

            Certainly there is not equivalence.

            Just to stir things up… How many people did the US kill in N Vietnam, S Vietnam, Laos & Cambodia… And directly or indirectly in Iraq?… The answer is over 7 figures. So imagine how news was received overseas of the wedding party in Wech Baghtu that was struck by a drone in 2008 and 37 civilians were killed. Was that acceptable collateral damage?

            Violence begets violence: we just don’t invoke the name of God in the process. We ‘formally’ use other justifications but we hear god invoked all of the time in political rhetoric.

            Terrorism is pointless madness and will yield no solution for anyone. Sadly those whose hearts are filled with fear and hate can be manipulated by those who will not hesitate to use god to enrich and empower themselves.

            And the likes of those people are everywhere.

          • stephenreal

            But that does not the answer why did they fit the jihadi profile from the get go. 
            Vietnam has nothing at all to do with Jihadists.

            No one on this planet does these type of bombings in such a regular fashion as radical Islamists.

          • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

            Vietnam feeds into their view of America as a ruthless imperial power.

            And did I mention who helped create Saddam Hussein and supported the Iraq-Iran war.

            If you look at our history, we’re not at war with Islam: we’re at war with anybody that threatens our interests.

          • brettearle

            I’m in agreement that the US is guilty of war crimes–like many other countries.

            But where do you get your claimed number, of “over 7 figures”, all tolled–for the besieged countries that you list?

          • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

            Wikipedia to start and other sources. The USG puts the number of Vietcong at over 900k. Add in the bombings in Cambodia and Laos, then add in agent Orange… It is one horrific figure.

          • brettearle

            You were right.

            Your sources checked out.

            Amazing…and outrageous.

            I would have thought much larger than our casualties–but no where near the estimates that are out there. 

          • JobExperience

            There are symbols and indicators that armed violence is barely submerged all across this nation. Often the white on black POW flag means racism and authoritarian fascism. Even if a POW had been left behind in Vietnam when he was 20 in 1970 he’d now be 63 and SS eligible. Who could survive that? And why aren’t  his captors claiming that check?
            The professed meaning of repressive symbolism is irrational and only make sense to Hatetriots. The spectacle of a TV lynching is being used to subjugate us. Maybe we forgot how to administer justice quietly and assuredly, with confidence and reverence. No wonder trust is lost. It’s a little late now to be revoking citizenship and plotting a kangaroo path. And if that happens support will be eroded further. Governing should not be a “confidence game” or a “reality show.”

        • AC

          i’m going to agree with your sentiment. i honestly feel like the entire planet is split into 2 camps: those that want to progress, learn, explore & move forward to the future & those that want to remain in strict, middle ages, free-for all kind of world…..

        • brettearle

          Wait until dogs, as domestic pets, are walked, sporting holsters.

          Wait until school teachers form their own militias.

    • jefe68

      Winning?
      Considering that more plots have been stopped than carried out one would think that assessment is a bit premature.

      What is winning is fear mongering.

      • William

         Well, in their world, killing some people, 200 injured, shut down a major city, and it only cost them 2 Muslim terrorists.

    • donniethebrasco

       As their uncle said, “These boys are LOSERS.”

      • JobExperience

         What does your uncle say?

    • Gregg Smith

      I remember a picture on Drudge some time ago of a nun getting patted down by a TSA agent with the caption, “The terrorist have won.”

      • J__o__h__n

        I’m not comfortable flying with people who are wearing religious garb. 

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    Where were the tracker drones during this manhunt?
    I guess 1984 has not fully arrived; but wait, there’s still time.

  • donniethebrasco
    • JobExperience

      When you link to the Blaze (of hate) 3 times it morphs to The Blase’ .

  • donniethebrasco
  • donniethebrasco
  • AC

    what they did, it’s just not forgivable, no matter the back story. & i know there is one. i have a theory

    • stephenreal

      forgiveness and punishment for a brutal crime are two completely different things in the Christian canons.

      • AC

        that’s interesting. i’m agnostic, the closest i can come to forgiving is understanding the why of a thing.
        i’m stumped here. they were random joe schmoe’s, not the cause of the perceived wrongs of the perpetrator’s beliefs…..

        • stephenreal

          It’s extremely hard to explain or even understand the radicalization of the youth in Islam. The US Naval Academy has the some great research by Islamic scholars that teach there and who have laid out the history of these types of attacks in their historical contexts.

          • JobExperience

             Why is comprehension so hard? How do we get teenagers to join the military? God and country, my boy, God and country.

    • brettearle

      What is your theory?

      • AC

        it has to do with the accident the dad was in, bitterness and factors of suceptibilty to radical brainwashing….
        but i guess i’ll wait til the facts come out & see if they line up neatly or not…

  • donniethebrasco

    Allah Allah Akbar

     

    • stephenreal

      You got me rolling in laughter! Ha!

      • AC

        why? what is this from?

        • Ray in VT

          I think that it translates as “God is great.”  You hear it a lot in videos taken at protests or celebrations in the Middle East.

          • Gregg Smith

            It’s a good example of a phrase that is harmless enough when translated literally without context. But when one screams it as they are committing mass murder (like at Ft. Hood) it’s a good indication they are a radical jihadist. 

          • Ray in VT

            Of course context means a great deal, and this is no exception.  It is much like the difference in meaning between the cross that my mother in law wears around her neck and the meaning behind lighting one up on the lawn of a minority family.

          • JobExperience

            Roughly equivalent to a “Life is Good” bumper sticker or decal.

          • Ray in VT

            It could be if that was the intent of the person.

        • stephenreal

          I look at it as black humor. It’s what all the jihadist say before they blow themselves up. A lot of people use it as a refrain to an impossible situation or catch-22.

          Allah Akbar (Arabic: الله أكبر) is an Islamic phrase, called Takbir in Arabic, meaning “God is greater” or “God is [the] greatest”.

    • donniethebrasco

       Quote from failed Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad

  • brettearle

    He may be quite publicity shy–and he may, erroneously, believe that to be identified, would mean that he could become a misunderstood and misidentified target.

  • brettearle

    The money aspect is interesting–if not intriguing.

    But the father is apparently seriously ill–and he may be terminally ill.

    He, reportedly, wanted to go home to die in his own country.

    • JobExperience

       The “money aspect” is never explored when candidates run for office. Avoidance suggests it would be impolite.

  • john bailey

    The guest list would imply only terrorism people have valid things to say about these guys?

  • William

     I think refugees get a pretty good welfare check once they are in the USA. I wonder if they are still drawing their money, but living overseas.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      William, you think?

      You don’t think so good. So maybe you shouldn’t think so much.

      (h/t, and paraphrased from, Ted Williams)

      • JobExperience

         Not thinking good makes him “check eligible.” But he needs to apply now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1843096380 Vera Scott

    Is it possible or likely that the US will revoke Dzhokhar Tsarnaev’s citizenship?

    • Kyle

      Seems possible, treason is one reason for losing citizenship, and I think this would fall in that category. “Treason is waging a violent war against the United States in cooperation with a foreign country or any organized group” (from http://www.newcitizen.us/losing.html)

      • JobExperience

         A legitimate conviction (of said treason) would precede the revocation of citizenship. Revocation is part of the penalty, not part of the prosecution, unless you throw the Constitution out with the bath water. And if you throw it out for one guy, then you could be next.

        • Kyle

          Right you are of course, but the question was not about when, just if that could happen, and it can.  

  • donniethebrasco

    What, no Alex Jones?

    He KNOWS what happened.

    If they don’t talk about false flags on this show, they will talk about how poor Jahar hasn’t been read his Miranda rights yet.

    Jahar is a poor victim or a patsy and should be freed.

    You government radio guys can’t call a evil doer an evil doer.

     

  • John_in_Amherst

    These two represent Islam the way the KKK and Westboro Baptists represent Christianity. 
    We in the US are eager to hang a label on perpetrators of violence to somehow make their actions more comprehensible.  It is hard to come to grips with the fact that when people do go crazy, our society gives them the tools to become radicalized (free speech on the web), and wreak havoc (easy access to guns and gunpowder), which are sanctified in the Bill of Rights.  We are not responsible for this insane carnage, but we would be stupid to ignore the contributing variables that facilitate it.  If only the pols who are now calling for rendition and torture would care to revisit their vote to kill back ground checks for those buying guns and ammo…  Yes, insane people will always be able to harm innocent people, but why do we seem to make it easier? 

    • brettearle

      You may have to face the fact that in a Free Society–or in a so-called Free Society–there are inherent risks.

      Those risks can be exploited by devious people who plot to create mayhem and initiate violence.

      It is the price we pay for Freedom.

      A part of me feels that eliminating instructions for making bombs, ought to be eliminated from the Internet–even though that would be a violation of Free Speech.

      • stephenreal

        impossible to do that

        • JobExperience

          Exactly! The cognitive dissonance between our corrupted institutions and our intuition for justice is making doing the right thing nearly impossible.

      • John_in_Amherst

         Freedom does have a price attached, including living bravely in the face of possible danger.  With freedoms come responsibilities to act in ways that preserve the safety of others.  It is a regrettable circumstance of our age that our technological abilities have far outstripped our wisdom, and that many things that keep us safe under some circumstances can be used against us in others.  The web can connect us to almost the entire body of human knowledge, which is of tremendous value.  AND it means that when people go crazy, they can research ways to act out their homicidal fantasies.  There ARE steps to reduce the danger, and requiring universal background checks and a license to buy guns & ammo might help.  Not all the time, but at least some of the time. 

    • stephenreal

      But they did fit the Islamic radical profile from the beginning and to deny that is to deny the scientific method that lead to that early on assumption of who the perps were.

      • John_in_Amherst

         It can be argued that their psychotic delusions, homicidal impulses and disaffection with what they percieved as “American values” was given a framework by the rantings of radical clerics.  The surveillance videos, not psychological profiling, led to developing leads.  The psych stuff figured in defining motive.

        • Expanded_Consciousness

          You can argue that American soldiers are psychotically deluded and that their homicidal impulses and disaffection with “Middle East values” was given a framework by the rantings of right-wing politicians in America. But, again, you’d be wrong.

          • John_in_Amherst

            if I made that argument I would indeed be wrong.  Can you come up with any other specious claims?

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            It shows the speciousness of your thinking. They were homicidal maniacs (both of them, both brothers at once), who instead of murdering co-workers, ex-friends, relatives, ex-girlfriends, etc., just happened to target Americans. The psychiatry is what is important (especially if they were toilet trained properly), but not the politics. No, the politics is incidental.

            You have a real disrespect for non-Americans’ beliefs, if you really believe your rhetoric.

    • Kyle

      You seem equally eager to hang the label of crazy on these individuals, as is usually the case when unable to relate to a person’s actions.  They are just as “crazy” as any other religious individual, and while mainstream Islam does not support actions like this, the religious community they joined, which some call radical Islam does.  You use the KKK as an example, and while it clearly does not represent all Christians, it would still be worthwhile to label an attack from a KKK member as motivated from their relationship with that group.

      • John_in_Amherst

         The media failed to list the religious affiliation of any of the mass shooters that have grabbed headlines recently.  Do you think this would be the case if they had been Muslim?

        • J__o__h__n

          Did any of the mass shooters mention religion as the reason they were doing it? 

          • John_in_Amherst

            point taken.  Their disaffection with society and American values as motivation was always played down relative to their insanity.  So here we have two who were quite clearly insane, but what is played up is their aberrant views of Islam, because it fits our country’s current narrative.

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            No one mentioned their sanity, but you. They are not insane. Radical Islamic militants exist. We did not dream up their existence. Rational people look at the context of any situation and do not say, ‘Let’s just call them crazy and not mention their connections to radical Islamic militants.’ There is no point in putting your head in the sand. 

            This is not a psychiatric problem. This is a socio-political problem.

          • John_in_Amherst

             The older brother was a trouble maker even within his own mosque, where twice in the past few months he interrupted Friday prayers with fundamentalist rants.  Disaffected, angry young males are a pan-cultural problem, and their malevolence is being played upon by people who use twisted interpretations of god & holiness to prod them to violence.

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            America educated them and fully embraced them. They had social lives. They could join any social group at their schools. They lived in Cambridge, which is the most inclusive community in the world. So, blaming America and saying they should have hugged these two tighter, is ridiculous. The news should cover radical Islamic militants.

          • John_in_Amherst

             I did not blame America.  I wish you could read.  I state that angry, disaffected young men are a pan-cultural phenomenon, meaning they are everywhere, and are routinely exploited by religious kooks in a lot of cultures. 

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            No, you want to change the narrative. You don’t want to look at the problem of radical Islamic militants. These two adult men were not the victims. They were not exploited. They were the victimizers. They were the religious kooks.

        • Kyle

          depends on the motivation of the mass shooter.  In these cases the motivation was a radical islamist one.  In other recent cases they have been fuzzy as in newtown or colorado.  If the shooter was from the KKK or the Aryan brotherhood that would have been mentioned like Islamic fundamentalism is here.  Recall the killing of the prosecutor recently in texas.  They initially were thinking it was Aryan brotherhood related and were reporting on that.

          • John_in_Amherst

             It HAS been a while since the Branch dividians or Jonestown.  Thank God.

        • brettearle

          I think the Media would feel obligated to do so, if a shooter had been Muslim.

          And, in doing so, I am not at all sure that it wouldn’t be understandable.

          What’s more, if there were any hint that there was Sikh-induced violence or Basque violence, I’m sure we’d hear ethnic/native identification, as soon as that information became available.

          Your Progressive point is overplayed, here….

          • John_in_Amherst

             Perhaps.  As the investigation goes on, it is reported in the WSJ the older brother even ticked off the people at his own mosque, twice interrupting Friday prayer in the past few months to go on a fundamentalist rant.  Point is this guy was Crazy first and Muslim a distant second, not the other way around.

          • brettearle

            You raise an important point.

            It’s a point I’ve been thinking of, too–since we discovered the backgrounds of the brothers.

            Question is:

            How much of a `Cult Pull’, of a group like al Qaeda, emboldens the already built-in madness or potential violent malice?

            I’m beginning to think that Radicalized Islamic Fundamentalism–which likely rivals, or eclipses, some other radical groups in its intrinsic zealotry–has an ADDICTIVE power to the spiritually and emotionally weak?

            Do you know about Patty Hearst and the SLA?

            There is something, that I sense, that might, subtly, have a kind of similar thread…..although far from directlyanalogous.

          • John_in_Amherst

            I do remember Patty H. & the SLA.  Perhaps the phenomenon of hostages starting to identify with their captors may be some sort of twisted survival mechanism? 
            I can only imagine what these radicalized guys think, but it seems that once they cross a certain line, they can’t pull back – they have made a psycological commitment to a course of action and it becomes impossible to question it or their whole world view falls apart.  People have an innate, deep need to connect with a spiritual wellspring, and leaders throughout time have used this to manipulate followers to do all kinds of atrocious things.  Radical Islam is not alone in this, they are just the most organized & outstanding example on the scene today.  Every religion has had manifestations of this.  Up until the 20th century, various Christian groups killed non-believers or even believers of a different stripes with seeming abandon.  Hindus and Bhuddists have taken their turns as well.  The pressures of modern society, the recent history of modernization, colonialism, geopolitics, etc. have combined to make people stressed out generally, and easy prey for those who would pervert religion for their own twisted ends.  Still no excuse for horrors like Boston, but more comprehensible.    

          • brettearle

            Quite well said.

            [Let's, of course, not forget genocidal mentality...
            Nazism, Rwanda, Cambodia, Srebrenica, etc.]

            All of this, in a sad and ugly way, is nevertheless fascinating.

            Political/cultural/societal leadership, and the nature of its followers, is the true conundrum of the history of mankind.

            What is going on with Islamic Fundamentalism–

            and the changes, reactions, and transformations
            in the US–is one microcosmic factor in this Timeless Saga.

            Stockholm syndrome, here we come….

      • brettearle

        They were crazy enough to stand out, by walking away from a scene where they should have been running, like everyone else.

        This gross misjudgement helped cost them their lives.  They drew noticeable attention to themselves. 

        They weren’t smart enough for their own good.

        Which, in my book, makes them “crazy”.

        Forget the political cult angle.

    • William

       So, the take away is no accountability or individual responsibility on the part of the two Muslim terrorists.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Your reading comprehension problem is kicking in again.

        • William

           Your Liberalism is tripping your mind again.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Dude, nothing you call me rises to the level of an insult. It’s like when my six-year-old niece says “I hate you” because I won’t let her eat all the ice cream.

      • John_in_Amherst

        The take away from your comment is that you cannot read, perhaps because your bias prevents it.   COMPLETE and full accountability for the perps of the bombing, but not for all of Islam.

        • William

           Your response indicates you are unable to discuss this subject.

          • John_in_Amherst

             I am writing.  are you reading?

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      But they didn’t go insane. They rationally planned and executed a plan over months. That has nothing to do with going insane, like when a man walks into the bedroom and sees his wife with another man. They have different politics than us. That is all. Don’t create excuses for them. Insanity is just an excuse.

      • John_in_Amherst

        planting bombs loaded with shrapnel to injure innocent people at a marathon IS insane.  You are confusing methodical with sane.

        • Expanded_Consciousness

          You need to tighten your definition and understanding of the word and concept insane, before you build a defense case for them. Is the US using drones and killing innocent civilians (collateral damage) insane or a controversial act of war? The concert was insane! This ice cream flavor is insane! We are going to make an insane amount of money! 

          They didn’t go insane. They rationally planned and executed a plan over months.

          • John_in_Amherst

             I am not defending them.  They bear full responsibility for their actions.  The rest of the world’s billion plus Muslims do not.
            Jeffrey Daumer planned murders over months, and tucked away body parts in his fridge for snacks.  Are you arguing he was not insane?

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            You see no essential difference between the abnormality of Daumer and politically-motivated acts?

          • John_in_Amherst

             I am politically motivated to vote out the opposition.  I am not insane enough to try to kill them.

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            The American government does the violence for you and can draft you into it any time. America does more than just vote. Take ownership of it. 

            You are just an insane guy, who loves to use the word insane, cause it is insane fun to say insane all day. Enjoy.

          • Ray in VT

            Wasn’t there some discussion on here last week between “legally insane” and the sort of crazy where people act horribly but with rational, premeditated thought?

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      They didn’t go insane and then we added the politics. They brought the politics and the violent plan. So, your framing of this situation is false and your disrespect for free speech is disturbing. We find out who people are through free speech. We don’t create false narratives of who they are.

      • John_in_Amherst

        exactly where did I disrespect free speech?  So mass murder is not an insane act? And what is the “false narrative” you speak of?

  • Kyle

    Does anyone know where they got the guns?  Seems like they could have gotten them legally, but I haven’t heard either way.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      I’m not even sure if they’ve reported what kinds of weapons they had — legal or illegal.

      • jefe68

        It’s a good question though.

  • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

    What the public wants to know is the psychology of the circumstances that explains Jahar’s Jekyll-and-Hyde conversion from a likable, friendly, and popular student to a perpetrator of inexplicable violence against the general public.

    Perhaps there is an Equus-like story here that, if properly presented, would flip an enlightened public’s attitude from one of rage-filled antipathy to one of comprehensible empathy. If so, the government would be unlikely to favor the revelation of any such paradigm-shifting story.  If that theory is correct, then the government’s best strategy is to exploit the Patriot Act exception to Miranda so as to provide a legal way to keep Jahar’s undisclosed backstory story under wraps.

    Tom, my intuition here is that there is a remarkably enlightening narrative here, waiting to be revealed.  It might not be a Homerian narrative, but I’ll wager my Stanford and MIT credentials that it’s a Dostoevskian narrative, as explicated by René Girard‘s model of Contagion and James Gilligan‘s analysis of the roots of violence in the culture and the iatrogenic nature of our erratic crime and punishment model.

    • SpringHill44

      Thank you for your contribution — I think this comment is just as typically “Bostonian” (or “Cantabridgian”) as the fact that law authorities kept open several strategic Dunkin Donuts during the lockdown!  (In different ways, of course!) Oh, and there was a police Hummer or tank that received a parking ticket on Boston Common on Friday, too.

  • AC

    can you talk about the WHY the father moved back?

    • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

      I can’t find the story now, but I think the father had a good white collar job in Russia, perhaps involving some kind of government work there.  He came to the US seeking asylum from the chaos and violence, but the only work he had in Cambridge was auto repair. As I understand it, he returned to Russia when the violence subsided, and where he could resume white collar work in his profession.

    • brettearle

       The New Yorker claims that the father was seriously ill and returned to die in his homeland.

      • AC

        no. he was in a very serious car accident that left him w/a plate in his head & other permanent after effects…(rumor is a drunk driver hit him but was never caught. i don’t totally believe this rumor)

        • brettearle

          Thank you for the clarification.

          I suppose illness is a stretch of the Truth–with the following caveat:

          I I reference my source–a source that has an indefatigable reputation for fact-checking–why aren’t you referencing yours?

          • AC

            youre right. I’m the source, or rather my husband, I only met him once. My husband’s hobby is cars – we always have a rotating car that he works on and he has a network of friends who are mechanics & wrench heads like himself. that’s how he met Anzor, who appreciated my husband because he was patient w/him when he knew next to no english. i met him when we went to buy a summer convertible from him. i hate to say my impression was not good, but my husband still says he is a fair guy. he came to say goodbye less than a year ago because the accident had left him w/headaches and slurred speech. i can say my husband was surprised to learn he had more than one son. his entire focus was on the older son, Tam & how he was going to make it fighting in vegas, which he could never get the money together to do. Anzor was also a champion boxer but never made it & he was getting a 2nd chance at his dream thru the older son. i guess the accident changed all that…i do wonder if the son suddenly felt like his dreams were over & that made him suceptible to brainwash…but i don’t know…

          • brettearle

            Interesting….and tragic.

            Thanks.

            No question that a common thread–anywhere in the World–is that young disaffected minds–who are especially impressionable, as the result of frustration, destitution, disappointment, and rejection–can be susceptible to Radical Extremist Groups that seek  external and monolithic Scapegoats.

          • AC

            i agree. & disaffected or no, i think a huge helping of selfishness & self pity might factor in.
            It is so shocking how the supply seems limitless tho…:(

  • LianeSperoni

    In 2011 there was a triple murder in Waltham. The victims were two men from Cambridge, both of whom were know to have been dealing marijuana. One of them was a graduate of Cambridge Rindge and Latin, the other a graduate of Brandeis. Most importantly, the third victim, in whose apartment the murders took place, was a man by the name of Brendan Mess, who was apparently friendly with Tarmelan Tsarnaev.Is it possible that the triple murder was not just a homicide but a robbery and that whoever committed that horrible crime made off with a lot of loot that was used to purchase bombs and explosives and guns? Or did the loot include guns that belonged to drug dealers?
    How did these two support themselves and their activities? Maybe they weren’t funded from sources abroad, but from sources closer to home.

  • orlando5

    STOP turning these guys into celebrities!  Have a show about the victims! 

  • http://www.facebook.com/davebates82 Dave Bates

    I watched this whole thing unfold on TV Friday night along with everyone else in Boston. And I was 3 blocks away when the bombs went off.  But now that these 2 idiots are dead and captured that should be the last we speak of them. Their motives don’t matter. Their beliefs don’t matter. What matters is that we talk about those who lost their lives and the people who were injured. It’s important that we talk about the men and woman of Boston and beyond who helped in varying capacities. It’s important to give credit to the men and woman of BPD and BFD and EMS. But focusing on these two brothers and giving them any more of the spotlight is the last thing we should do. They gained the attention of the world last Monday, and I’m sure they had reasons behind their cowardly actions. Allowing those reasons to resonate to the rest of the world only furthers their cause. The older brother should be dumped into an UNMARKED grave, the younger should be either given the death penalty or life in prison and forgotten and we should continue to pick up the pieces and live our lives. April 15th will now be a day Bostonians will think of every year from now on, but I believe we will spend those anniversaries reflecting on how the city came together. And remember the people who lost their lives. I sincerely hope the Tsarnaev’s are never mentioned. 

  • Ellen Dibble

    Someone on TV yesterday stated that the elder Tsarnaev was radicalized at a mosque in Cambridge.  This rang a bell for me, since there was a quiet young woman who was radicalized in Cambridge, a graduate student in biochemistry at MIT, a young woman from Pakistan.  That happened post 9/11.  See this link.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

  • toc1234

    I think Tamerlan had been arrested in 2009 and both had MA DMV photos, I would presume.  So apparently the facial recognition tech didn’t work.  And second, I would think one of the first lists the FBI would review would be people they had looked at in the Boston area in the last couple years for possible terrorism connections – Tamerlan.  furthermore, Tam’s petition for citizenship was put on hold recently b/c of that FBI inquiry in 2011. Is there that many of these types running around the Bosotn area??

  • http://www.facebook.com/dfischman Dennis Fischman

    I am not going to fault the FBI for doing too little. You can never look at a sample of one and say with certainty, “This man’s views will lead him to violent action.” In he past, the FBI has frequently erred on the other side and done too much. As your guest points out, the views themselves are protected. Freedom is freedom for the thought we hate. It’s only when the thoughts turn into a plan of actionthat authorities can or should get involved.   

  • J__o__h__n

    I hope WBUR doesn’t pat itself on the back for the constant coverage of Friday’s events.  The rest of the country got to listen to On Point’s coverage.  Boston listeners got to listen to secondhand reporting of news reported on TV, twitter correspondents, and a dog walker. The most informative was a kid who was listening to a police scanner.  The interviews should have been edited and not live as most of them were not newsworthy.  Anthony Brooks said it best, “There has been a lot of waiting for very little to happen today.”  Rather than the blather of minutia like the typical overkill during a snowstorm, news programming should continue to air.  Cutting the first hour of On Point when it was covering the same subject is a very poor decision. 

  • Namiko Hart

    The video at this link shows the arrest of older Tsarnaev brother.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/boston-suspect-arrested-stripped-naked-so-when-was-he-shot-and-killed/5332316
    This video is a must see.Why is the media spinning a different tale and doing a bad job of it at that?  There are so many holes in the official story, it is absolutely jaw dropping.  It took the media 18 hours to finally report that the brothers did not rob the 7Eleven.  There is also some evidence that they did not murder the MIT cop.  Meanwhile there could be a cop killer running around right now.  Finally, these brothers have been accused, tried and convicted already in the media.  Where is the evidence, has anyone seen it.  And if video of them just walking down the street by the marathon finish line is the evidence it shows nothing.  Where is the forensic evidence?  What’s even more frightening is watching the population jump on the “hang em high” bandwagon.  People forget these guys were just SUSPECTS, not proven terrorists.  

    • jefe68

      There is a witness. He lost both his legs.
      One of the brothers looked right at him. 
      They made eye contact. A few minutes later the bag this man witnessed being left on the ground blew up.

      The other problem with your comment is that guy in video you posted was not one of them. I don’t know who he was. I watched that as it was being broadcast live, and since then this man has kind of disappeared from the story. Which is weird I must say, but my understanding is that was not either brother.

      They allegedly had a car full of weapons. They were shooting at the police and tried to use explosives.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I think it was also 60 Minutes that said “we know” that the younger brother was flunking out of UMass Dartmouth.  This suggests to me that however fine a student he was, his mind and heart were tied up elsewhere.  It might not have been exactly a choice.  

        One other notable point to me is that the older brother complained to one of the uncles that he was disturbed that “people aren’t able to control themselves.”  Cross that comment with a report that he had been involved in domestic violence, and all we know about issues of control in general.  And also, that the mother had been reported to be picked up for shoplifting in this country, and that Both Parents are in Russia, and have been.  It seems that a culture can “catch” young people when issues with their family of origin or culture of origin is somehow in the cross-hairs, suffering upheaval.  A culture can, but if it doesn’t, there is a huge sense of helplessness, and that the world is wrong, and there is an obligation to rectify it.  Patience alone doesn’t seem to be enough.  To “exist” is to take independent action.  It’s existential.  I do understand that.  I’m thinking of Sartre.  If there are others who feel the same way, all the better.  But so much better, you might think of much more effective ways of counter-culturing.

  • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

    Uncovering the Roots of Violence in the Culture

    We have an unprecedented chance to learn why these otherwise unfathomable episodes of seemingly senseless violence continue to occur in our troubled and jittery culture.

    “I, and I think all of the law enforcement officials, are hoping for a host of reasons the suspect survives,” the governor [Deval Patrick] said after a ceremony at Fenway Park to honor the victims and survivors of the attack. “We have a million questions, and those questions need to be answered.”

    I hope the authorities will allow some competent psychologists, sociologists, and journalists to interview the younger brother, Jahar Tsarnaev, to discover what flipped him.

    The deceased older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, was evidently not enamored of organized government. He’s probably not alone in that regard. Alas, he appears to have been a tad shy in the ethics department, as well. Lamentably, he’s probably not alone in that regard, either.

    In any event, I predict that the case of the Brothers Tsarnaev will fit the models of James Gilligan and René Girard.

    In particular, I fully expect a careful and conscientious investigative analysis will reveal a complex web of causal factors of terroristic violence, including conflict, oppression, injustice, corruption, poverty, ignorance, alienation, and suffering.

  • Namiko Hart

    Interested people should also go to view some very suspicious pictures at WashingtonBlogspot of “contractors” mulling around the same area of the detonated bomb which certainly raises alot of questions.

  • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

    From an AP story:

    Albrecht Ammon, a downstairs-apartment neighbor of Tamerlan Tsarnaev in Cambridge, said in an interview that the older brother had strong political views about the United States. Ammon quoted Tsarnaev as saying that the U.S. uses the Bible as “an excuse for invading other countries.”

    The picture that is emerging in my mind is that Tamerlan found himself ensnared in an ethical conundrum for which he had insufficient education or insight to address in a nonviolent and ethical manner.

    I reckon the same observation could be made about any number of people caught up in a perplexing ethical conundrum.

  • LianeSperoni

    It sounds like the media talking to “friends” is not getting the real story.

    Tom, though not all domestic abuse leads to violence, very many people, esp. men, who commit violent acts have been abused as children.

    Their interest in “manly” sports like wrestling and boxing can also be a sign of abuse by the father.

  • Wahoo_wa

    Wow…Menino saying that the older brother was the leader who brainwashed his brother is very disturbing.  The younger brother had his own free will.  Language like this begins to build an excuse for the perpetrator   Our leaders should back away from this type of language in public statements I think.

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      Menino is not that smart.

    • J__o__h__n

      I’d assume some religious extremist brainwashed the older brother too but they are both responsible for their murders. 

      • Expanded_Consciousness

        The religious extremist was brainwashed by the religious extremist, who was brainwashed by a religious extremist, who was brainwashed by another religious extremist. And you are all brainwashed Americans.
        Drop the brainwash nonsense people. All people with different views than you are not brainwashed. They just have different views.

        • J__o__h__n

          People who have different views from me that arrived at them through thought aren’t brainwashed.  People who have different views from me because a god told them the answers are.

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            That is a false dichotomy and you are very prejudiced against religious people.

          • J__o__h__n

            I don’t think it is false. 

            The majority of the human race is religious.  I don’t care what people believe unless they use those beliefs as justification for public policy or violence. 

          • Expanded_Consciousness

            US Presidents say God is on our side when we go to war.

          • J__o__h__n

            I complain about that too. 

      • Wahoo_wa

        I just can’t fathom the idea of murder.  It is so beyond my comprehension to think that someone would do such a thing. It has to be some level of mental disorder.

  • AC

    i think someone in the FBI should really, really look into the father’s accident. really.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       What was the father’s ‘accident’, when was it, and how is it relevant?  I hadn’t heard any mention of an accident.

      • J__o__h__n

        I think he had two of them. 

        • jefe68

          oh snap!

          • AC

            i just got that – ha!

      • AC

        <2yrs ago.
        i think he tried to hustle the wrong person, but i don't have enough information….

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           OK.  I was curious why the parents moved back to Russia.

        • JGC

          And I read (WSJ? NYT?) that the mother was charged with theft last year, shop-lifting $2000 in merchandise from a Lord & Taylor.  This family is one piece of work. 

          • J__o__h__n

            Was she caught on their security cameras too?

  • JobExperience

    The hounds are restless and the hunters outnumber the dead: Time  to release another fox.

  • http://www.facebook.com/paul.yovino.5 Paul Yovino

    Think time will prove the Tsarnaev brothers were more like something out of William Goldings ” Lord of the Flies” with a touch of Bonnie & Clyde than something out of the Al quaed handbook. Just like the juveniles in the book who were left on a deserted island without any adult of parental supervision these brothers were apparently abandoned by their parents who went back to Chechnea leaving these two to fend for their own. Did the “Muslim brotherhood” step in where the parents should have been. Listening to their parents and aunt and uncles in Toronto and Maryland they were at the very least a disfunctional family with some wings of the family not talking to the other. To a degree this was similar to the Sandy Hook killer, Adam Lanza whose father had only a minimum or very little contact with his son. Time will tell but without adult or parental supervision or direction these two devolved into savage sociopaths.

  • J__o__h__n

    I hope that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev gets the maximum penalties under the law, but I’m not comfortable with his rights as a defendant being decided by Carmen Ortiz. 

    • Gregg Smith

      Apologies if I missed your point. Glenn Beck is out to lunch this morning IMO. He’s upset that Tsarnaev has not been read his rights and equating that with having his rights denied. I disagree, he still has his rights.

      • Kyle

        haha Glenn Beck.  He never complained about Bush’s detainees, but now that Obama is in charge human rights are suddenly a big deal..

        • Gregg Smith

          “He never complained about Bush’s detainees…”

          Are you kidding me? You’ve never listened to Beck.

          • Kyle

            Well, he did say that if we couldn’t detain them then we should shoot them in the head.  If I look at this I find it to be an argument that we should be detaining them (unless he actually thought shooting them in the head was better)
            http://crooksandliars.com/2008/07/06/glenn-beck-on-how-the-us-should-treat-gitmo-detainees-were-going-to-shoot-them-all-in-the-head

          • Gregg Smith

            That Bush era sound byte is the most prescient thing I’ve heard in a while. Beck predicted the advent of our assassinator in chief exactly.

          • Ray in VT

            There’s a big difference between blowing up a militant in the field and summarily shooting prisoners who have been captured.

      • J__o__h__n

        US Attorney Carmen Ortiz is an overzealous prosecutor who puts advancing her career above working for justice.  She hounded Aaron Swartz until he killed himself.  She justified her actions as “theft is theft” even though the facts and the law aren’t clear on that. 

        • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

          Carmen Ortiz is no doubt a fervent believer in the Rule of Law and the associated cultural notion of Law and Order.

          I suspect, however, that Carmen Ortiz, being a political appointee whose academic background is in Criminal Justice, has relatively little formal education in any of the STEM disciplines (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics).

          And so, I suspect she is unaware of the fairly recent discovery that rule-driven systems are mathematically chaotic.

          That is, I suspect she is not aware that “Law and Order” is a myth, and that “Law and Chaos” is closer to the manifestly demonstrable scientific and mathematical truth.

          But that’s not to single out or pick on Carmen Ortiz on that observation. I daresay it’s even true of distinguished professors of law who also have degrees in the STEM disciplines.

          • J__o__h__n

            The penalties she was threatening him with were clearly not just no matter what her educational background. 

          • http://profiles.google.com/barry.kort Barry Kort

            More to the point, why does she believe in the Crime and Punishment Regulatory Model?

      • 1Brett1

        Apologies for not being up on what Beck said this morning…I can’t speak to what he was saying.     :-)

        As far as “he still has his rights” I agree with that. Besides, authorities aren’t worried about possible self-incriminating statements he might make (they already likely have a mountain of evidence against him and don’t have to worry about a possible confession being thrown out in court (because of a deft lawyer, say). They really are just questioning him to determine other information, e.g., statements about an affiliation to other terrorists, etc., and he doesn’t need to be Mirandized for them to use such information to help them go after others.

        I would like to see him Mirandized because of incidents that happened after the bombings, i.e., 7-11 robbery, shootout with police, throwing bomb materials while being pursued. If he does make some incriminating statements regarding those crimes, I’d like to see them stick and used against him. I just would like to see him charged with everything they can.

  • debhulbh

    We hear from a neighbour of the older brother, the conversations he had with him.

     The older brother was passionate about the failed/divisive, unfair, unjust US policies, as he perceived them, particularly mentioned the middle east. We cannot look at what is happening to the Palestinian people and say that we are impartial. We are not. We have failed and continue to fail those people. 

    We cannot ignore our failed policies overseas and not expect these young men who witness these injustices to react. They recognized the injustices that existed there, but of course they went about making a difference in an entirely inhumane way. 

    But this is what can happen.

     When we turn a blind eye to young Palestinian men 12,14,15 being taken out of their beds in the middle of the night, with their mothers and father looking on, questioned, not being arrested, not accused of wrongdoing, not implicated in anything, routine commonplace practice of the Israeli army, it is wrong . Young men dragged out of their beds at all hours of the morning so that the Israeli’s can make their presence felt. ‘MOCK arrests‘ by Israelis of young men, it is all on tape and NPR had the program this weekend.   

    The Inhumanity of it. The inhumanity of this. 

    When are we going to take responsibility for our own failure to speak to such unjust actions and to act before these young men become what we see here.

     There are so many reasons and we must start somewhere but he mentioned that region and so WE MUST look at what is happening there.

  • Trudie

    Neither one of them worked…where did the money come from to build the aresenal…

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    There were reports of unexplained explosions near Hanover, MA in March.  Were these related to ‘testing’ by the bombers?

    From the local Newspaper.

    http://www.patriotledger.com/news/x711938623/Hanover-bombs-a-mystery-to-police#ixzz2R8sklc6X

  • toc1234

    huh?  there aren’t hundreds of these types running around MA.  (I hope.)  The FBI should have been able to name Tamerlan as soon as they got his photo.

  • SpringHill44

    I live in the area and am extremely sorrowful for the people whose lives have been destroyed or changed immensely by this past week’s events.

    I usually don’t listen to news reports about the people who kill others, since I agree with another listener that it’s the victims who are more important, and paying attention to the perpetrators just feeds into future murderers’ desire for attention.

    But in this case, I have to point out a few things about the younger brother. First it struck me in the FBI pictures that he didn’t bother to hide his face on Marathon Monday. While his brother was wearing sunglasses and a hat pulled over his face, so that if I’d seen him on the street without those, I wouldn’t have recognized him, the younger brother had his cap on backwards and no sunglasses, so his hair and striking profile were easy to see and recognize again. He looks in the photos as if he doesn’t care that people will see his face and recognize him later. It made me wonder whether he either didn’t know exactly what would result from the backpacks’ detonation or if he  thought he’d be killed. Similarly, his going into the 7-11 and the ATM, both places where he’d be pictured by security cameras, make no sense.  (I’m not sure which brother went into the ATM, however.)

    Second, how long was this 19 year old left alone with his brother as his only adult family member? He wasn’t doing well academically in college after being with teachers and a coach who would have been influences on his life in the past. When I was in college, one young woman I knew passingly became a Moonie; another became almost fatally anorexic. It’s a vulnerable time in kids’ lives, and wonder why the parents, who were US citizens, left him with his brother, especially after the brother was questioned by the FBI.

    I don’t mean to exonerate him from these unspeakably evil acts, but I do feel that this is just a kid, who was living under the influence of his increasingly radical older brother, and having to spend his life in prison coming to regret what he did would be the greatest punishment.

    • Kyle

      19 is not “just a kid”, and he clearly knew what was in the backpack because he walked away calmly when the explosions went off.

      • SpringHill44

         My thought was that he could have been told it was smoke bombs … if, that is, he didn’t help to make the bombs (which may not be known yet?).

        I know 18-19 year olds very well, and while they’re not kids, they’re also not full adults. And the move away from the small community of high school and family life can lead those who aren’t doing well, or those without direction, to fall apart. I know a lot of young men who’ve killed themselves or become addicts during this time after high school (if they make it through).

        I’m just trying to say it’s an unsettling time of life, and having a radicalized, violent brother as the only adult family member while you’re flunking out of college after being in the National Honor Society could have produced a very vulnerable young man.  
        The parents should have been here with them, since they knew the older brother was going down fast.

  • debhulbh

    LOOK AT PALESTINIAN ISSUE.

    • Wahoo_wa

      I wonder if there is a connection here.  That Monday was Remembrance Day in Israel and that Tuesday, starting at sundown on Monday, was Israel’s Independence Day. 

      • Ray in VT

        It could have been, but it could just be a coincidence.  I suppose that one would need to look at any statements that are discovered in order to say whether or not it was a factor.

        • Wahoo_wa

          I agree.  It’s pure speculation.

        • debhulbh

          The neighbor in Cambridge said that in his conversations with the older brother, this issue came up and that he was “passionate” about it. He said it, himself.
          There are many factors I am sure, but one has to start looking at his own words, not high faluting  speculation. 

      • brettearle

        They likely would have taken advantage of a major, popular, and prestigious American event, anyway–even if these Israeli recognition days would not have `conveniently’ been on the calendar (assuming the Israeli-Palestinian issue drove, or partially drove their actions).

        I think we already have heard reports that the older brother had made public statements, indicting the US, but not necessarily Israel.

        In any case, these reports, I do not believe, have been fully substantiated.

    • brettearle

       What about it?

      • debhulbh

        RE PALESTINIAN ISSUEWe hear from a neighbour of the older brother, the conversations he had with him. The older brother was passionate about the failed/divisive, unfair, unjust US policies, as he perceived them, particularly he mentioned the middle east. We cannot look at what is happening to the Palestinian people and say that we are impartial. We are not. We have failed and continue to fail those people. We cannot ignore our failed policies overseas and not expect these young men who witness these injustices to react. They recognized the injustices that existed there, but of course they went about making a difference in an entirely inhumane way. But this is what can happen. When we turn a blind eye to young Palestinian men 12,14,15 being taken out of their beds in the middle of the night, with their mothers and fathers looking on, questioned, not being arrested, not accused of wrongdoing, not implicated in anything, just routine commonplace practice of the Israeli army, it is wrong . Young men dragged out of their beds at all hours of the morning so that the Israeli’s can make their presence felt. ‘MOCK arrests‘ by Israelis of young men, it is all on tape and NPR had the program this weekend.   The Inhumanity of it. The inhumanity of this. When are we going to take responsibility for our own failure to speak to such unjust actions and to act before these young men become what we see here. There are so many reasons and we must start somewhere but he mentioned that region and so WE MUST look at what is happening there.OUR TAX DOLLARS PAY FOR THIS.Not in my name, thank you.

        • brettearle

          Oh, of course! Of course!

          I forget that the Israelis were always the bad guys.

          I forgot!  I forgot!

          Shame……

          It goes without saying that sooner or later, the Jewish state would be blamed for something, here!

          ****Ladies and Gentlemen take note of debhlbh’s wonderfully objective and enthusiastically measured responses, on the Issue!******

          Please  do  take  Note!

          Hip…Hip…

  • Roy-in-Boise

    There is not a justification for what these young men did. However, America is a “corporatocracy” and America is an economic colonizer all over the world. Drone attacks, Blackwater, etc. So, why are we so surprised when people don’t like us?

    • Ray in VT

      I think that some people see attempting to discover and track the justifications that people who go down these radical, terrible paths create for themselves as excusing or apologizing, much like how some call looking at the actions that we take that harm people in other countries and attempting to see how these actions lead people to take up arms against us as “blaming America first”.

      • brettearle

         An unexamined life is not worth living, No?

    • brettearle

      The only people who are surprised are the ones who live in ignorance and believe that our country couldn’t possibly do anything wrong.

      Unfortunately, there are far too many of those individuals our country.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If there has been domestic violence and other encounters with the law, the brothers know full well that they can ask for a lawyer from square one.  You know that, right?  Anyone who’s watched most of the crime shows on TV shows probably knows that too.  The fact seems to be, though, that the police are extremely friendly, the better to encourage “opening up,” whereas the lawyer is pretty clipped.  “Don’t say anything.”

    • Gregg Smith

      Great point. They don’t need his testimony for a guilty verdict. It’s no biggee if they can’t use his words against him which is the only downside of not mirandizing him. 

      • Ellen Dibble

        He should put it in writing, even, since it seems that’s how he’s communicating anyway.  Once he gets a lawyer, the lawyer might begin to collaborate with the prosecutor and zero in on what information he can help with, without further complicating his situation.

        • Gregg Smith

          Hopefully he’ll take his father’s advise and cooperate fully.

          • Ellen Dibble

            His father?  I thought that was the uncle Ruslan.  

          • 1Brett1

            I thought so too.

          • Gregg Smith

            It was his father who urged him to tell the truth. It was the uncle who said they were losers who did not deserve to be on earth. 

            Of course his father thinks he was set up so he may not actually want the truth. But the truth is the truth and I hope he tells it.

          • brettearle

            The uncle also urged them to turn themselves in and ask for forgiveness.

        • brettearle

          If he cooperates, he can plea-bargain down to life imprisonment, maybe–especially if he fingers other individuals and groups.

        • donniethebrasco

           This shows the value of the death penalty.  Not that it is pleasurable to kill people, but it is necessary to have this as a negotiating strength to get these misanthropes to squeal.

    • J__o__h__n

      Perhaps they were too devoutly religious to watch valueless American television.  Our rights should be held to a higher standard than “probably knows.”  There is most likely more than enough evidence to not need the testimony to convict him but I don’t like the precedent. 

  • Potter

    Payback, yes loner, but payback for our agressive and violent behavior nevertheless

  • Ellen Dibble

    So much to hate about what American has done and has stood for, for what it continues to be, seemingly unable to help itself.  The clips from Cardinal O’Malley about if there is not a civilization of love, then there is no civilization at all, something like that — I’m thinking of the 1960s, especially the Vietnam era, when the number of issues my generation had with America was similarly huge.  Men growing their hair long was just one countercultural statement.  There were the smiley faces on every car door, and the idea that love has to wipe out all that cultural mess.  If it takes drugs and drug-induced hallucinations to get into that groove, so be it.  But the countercultural protest was mostly Against Violence, the culture of war and profit and discrimination, all that.  You can see that generation only achieved a modicum of success.  But I would say that massive disruption makes it actually harder to come together and make the change we need, not easier.  It might produce exactly the opposite of the change we need, i.e., scapegoating, limits on our freedoms, hunkering down, basically.  Not Woodstock love-ins and sleep-on-the-beach folk festivals, whatever the 21st century comes up with.

    • 1Brett1

      I had to smile(y face) in reading your comment as I watched the movie version of ‘Hair’ last night after so many decades…

    • brettearle

      The 60s succeeded and failed.

      The Failure, to me, came from poorly channeled adolescent anger that only alienated the so-called Moral Majority.

      While 60s protestors were better at showcasing their message, than their post-modern counterparts, Occupy WallStreet, the violence perpetrated by the radical groups, back then, was not pleasant, to say the least.

      They were on target, of course, with regard to their message for Gay Rights, Vietnam, Civil Rights, and Women’s Rights–and they are partially responsible for the progress being made on these fronts, in this country, today [Vietnam has been recognized more and more as misguided].

      But the way the 60s protestors went about it, was still partially ill-advised.  They acted too entitled and too contemptuous.

      But now, with Terrorism reaching our soil, what sort of 60s-like Love-In can there be, in any case?

      There’s a political and cultural polarity in our country of practical and psychic gridlock.

  • BonnieSD101

    We must appreciate the destructive impact of early and UNSUPPORTED childhood exposure to violence. “Unsupported” is the key difference between children who grow up with domestic violence and overcome it and those who become abusers themselves. Just one person supporting a child’s natural reactions, particularly, anger, to the wrong they are subjected to can enable that child to grow up empathic while a child who is isolated and abandoned will not trust their feelings and will bury them, but they will come out later when the child has a chance to become an aggressor themselves, finally able to avoid ever being a victim again. I daresay that most of us are on a continuum in our ability to empathize and to acknowledge and handle our anger. If this theory is correct, we will find that those who act out violently and criminally were raised on both the very outer limits of cruelty and of aloneness.

    • brettearle

      Though the law of averages are against the following, let’s not lose sight of it:

      Children, who do not receive such support can, and do, grow up to be well adjusted citizens in society.

      • BonnieSD101

        How can you be so sure? What other elements do you factor in?

        In any event, focusing on what can save early childhood from adult destructiveness is important, but saying that domestic violence doesn’t always lead to adult violence may obscure the fact that it is always — apparently — present in the history of those who perpetrate extreme destructiveness.

        I don’t personally know, but I understand that people with experience who do investigate this question do state it as fact, that all adult violence is preceded by having been subjected to it in childhood. If people minimize or cloud that fact, we will delay making sure that children are protected from it, and we will continue to be victimized as innocent bystanders while leaders and newscasters go off looking for “motives” while ignoring the obvious. 

        • brettearle

          You are missing the middle ground.

          And there is one.

          Human beings often–but often–overcome adversity at alarming rates.

          The dancer, who lost her leg(s) 8 days ago, is already talking about competing in 2014 Boston.

          While there isn’t any question that what many children need is what you explain, above, that doesn’t mean that all children don’t move ahead in life, regardless of a support system.

          If that were true, then we wouldn’t see people triumph from serious illness, serious loss, etc.

          If you do not become aware of many exceptions to your claims, then you will wind up assuming that all children are going to regard themselves as helpless victims, no matter what….whether or not they receive help.

          That simply is NOT true.

          • BonnieSD101

            What is the middle ground if all violent people do indeed come from violent backgrounds? That is not saying that everyone from a violent background becomes violent. And I certainly believe that people overcome adversity; it’d be nice to be clearer about what factors make that possible (even if it’s sometimes only nebulous, like “grace”). Overcoming childhood deficiencies and abuse is, I think, one of the main things we’re here for since no childhood is completely optimal. Furthermore, I think addressing that, and, particularly, the worst of it, is another of our big human tasks. I think it is you who are assuming helplessness about victimhood. We can acknowledge we are victims without postulating helplessness.

          • brettearle

            If you do not acknowledge middle ground–where many boys and girls grow up to be well-adjusted individuals– even though they come from violent households and have received no support system–then it is you who is “assuming helplessness about victimhood”….and is doing it,
            self-righteously, I might add.

  • Ellen Dibble

    The Israel issue may shape up very differently in a year or so.  I heard a part of a statement by Secretary Kerry about a week ago, saying that in about a year and a half, the two state solution will no longer be viable.  

        Perhaps that’s supposed to be a goad, but it doesn’t seem to reflect any optimism.  It seems to suggest the realism that Israel will become, if not a partner state with Palestine, a majority Muslim state on its own, including the territories, with charges at large of discrimination not against a minority but a majority, likely leading to a new constitution.  I can’t imagine what else.  

    • brettearle

      So is your point that de facto Apartheid–which I categorically reject as the situation now–will worsen?

  • OnPointComments

    “Make No Mistake, It Was Jihad”
    “Let’s hope the administration gets over its reluctance to recognize attacks on the U.S. for what they are.”
    By MICHAEL B. MUKASEY 
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324874204578436592210910044.html

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=584394991 Milen Penchev

    The Chechen conflict like many others that stemmed from the disintegration of the Soviet Union started as a nationalist movement. In order for one to understand it few points must be known.
    1. The Caucasus region is strategically important as the “underbelly” of the Russian Empire. It connects Asia and Europe. It has energy resources and it connect the Caspian Sea with the Black Sea – the only warm seas the Russians have access to.
    2.The region lays where three major empires collide.The Ottomans and the Persians fought to fill the vacuum left after the Mongols/Tatars swept the area and laid it to waste. Russia joined in around the 19th century. The region is very mountainous which predisposes for “balkanization” of the local population and makes it harder for a centralized authority to establish control over the entire area.
    3. Like every other empire the Russian Empire used the “divide and conquer” method to gain a foothold in the area. That lead to targeting specific ethnicities who were receptive to Russian “friendship”. For example the Russians managed to convert the majority of the Alans (modern day Ossetians) to christianity. No wonder the major Russian town in the area is Vladikavkaz (the capital of North Ossetia). The Chechens and Ingush resented the Alans, as these were converted to Sunni islam by the Ottoman Empire which held the area before its weakening. The Chechens were only nominally Muslim as they still practised their pagan customs high up in the mountains.
    4. During the Soviet period the government tried to create a society free of religion and ethnicity. Religion was not practiced or if it was it was underground. Stalin deported a lot of the ethnicities that did not want to convert to the common “sovietness” such as the Crimean Tatars in Kazakhstan, the Tatars from Tatarstan (Volga-Bulgaria) to Uzbekistan, the Chechens to Central Asia. They were accused of aiding the Nazis during WW2.
    5. The Chechens used every opportunity to breakaway from the Russian grasp. Every Russo-Ottoman, every weakness in Russian authority was used to revolt. Being of different religion that their occupiers reinforsed their “differentness” and desire to separate.
    6. The first Chechen war of independence was a nationalist movement. Left on their own to fight the Russians without help from any of the “great” nations it was like David vs. Goliath struggle, but the Chechens used the Russian weakness and prevailed though not recognized by anyone. There are still entities like that in the aftermath of the Soviet fall – look up Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia. The world turns a blind eye on those nations that are struggling for freedom and let a giant bully such as the Russian Federation to do as they please with them. In the limbo they were for the next several years, they only attention the Chechens got was from wahabis – extreme muslims that originated from Saudi Arabia. By the way the Saudis with a lot of American petro dollars work silently through proxy organizations to stir up trouble not just in the Caucasus but in the Balkans as well (Bosnia & Kosovo) Lots of money is used to attract young people living in dire poverty to join militant islam movements. 
    7. Putin uses the situation in Chechnya to his own benefit. By waving the terrorism threat as a flag, he has shaped the Russian state and society as this quasi-authoritarian state where people’s rights are not respected. He’s bettered Soviet tactics – uses religion (orthodox Christianity) and Russian nationalism to his advantage. People who are not ethnically Russian, but are born in Russia and their republics are part of the Russian Federation are treated as second class citizens. They can never be considered Russian, they themselves for the most part don’t want anything to do with Russia, yet Russia won’t let them go. If Russia recognizes independent Chechnya, Dagestan will be next, Ingushetia, Kalmykia, Adigheya (Cirkassia) and so forth. 
    8. The Islamist hijacked the nationalist movement in Chechnya. It is no longer a struggle of Chechen vs. Russian, it is a struggle of Muslim vs. Christian and in that fight everyone has a stake. Muslim people from all over the Muslim world feel like they are under threat. From Palestinians mistreated by Israelis, Kosovars by Serbs, Iraqis and Afghans by the Americans, Muslims are uniting against the common evil. It is easy to take over entire populations with religious dogmas and hatred against the infidels. Muslim populations all over are young and booming. Christians are aging but technologically advanced. They live better and the radical Islamist accuse the West for all the problems and misfortunes of the Muslims. They don’t seem to realize that the whole reason the West is ahead is because of its advanced society where liberty and personal freedom are guaranteed. The radical Muslims preach how rotten society is out West yet millions of young Muslims leave their native lands for political or economic reasons and flood countries like the U.K., the U.S., France, and Germany. They want to reap the benefit of these advanced Christian societies, but don’t want to give up their identity as Muslims. In a world where they seem to be different, they cling to their beliefs and at any sight of hardship they are ready to embrace radicalism and fight their host country.
    Sorry for the long post.

    • kentchris

      Thank you for the long, well written and informative  post. 

  • Adrian_from_RI

    Remember, Muhammad’s (1570-632) main instrument of
    proselytizing was the sword. Furthermore, Muslims have been telling us, time
    and time again, why they are terrorizing the West ever since they murdered
    Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972. Yet, here we have Tom asking
    why what happened, happened. Could Ayn Rand be right when she observed: “The
    hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided
    not to see”?   
      

    Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19 seem to
    be born again Muslims, but this is the one fact that everybody has decided not
    to see. I wonder whether the Progressives are happy that last Monday’s acts of
    terrorism were committed by Caucasians after all, namely, two Caucasians from
    the Caucasus :-).   
      

    For those interested in what it means to be a Muslim I
    recommend the book by Ayaan Hirsi Ali titled: “Infidel.” The writer is a most
    remarkable and courageous lady. It should come as no surprise that she has
    guards protecting her from the followers of “the Religion of Peace” just like
    Salman Rushdie and others.

     

    • OnPointComments

      “Islam is indeed a religion of peace, but it is also, quite demonstratively and throughout the world in proof after proof day after day, a religion of war.”
       –Mark Helprin

      • brettearle

        And I suppose that the Crusades were waged in the interest of Peace?

        Helprin’s comments are truly misguided.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           When were the Crusades?  Why not throw in the inquisition for good measure.

          Let’s keep it contemporary.

          • kentchris

            With the exception of the Japanese  WW2 was fought by christians against christians. USSR were athiest but majority of population was culturally christian. 60 million dead. Is this contemporary enough.  

          • OnPointComments

            WW2 was not fought in the name of Christianity to impose Christian tenets on non-Christians.

          • kentchris

            Are you suggesting that our current conflict is a religious war being fought by islam to impose their tenents on non-christians?

          • OnPointComments

            Jihad:  In Islam, the central doctrine that calls on believers to combat the enemies of their religion. 
             
            “The [Islam] ideology has regarded the United States as its principal adversary since the late 1940s, when a Brotherhood principal, Sayid Qutb, visited this country and was aghast at what he saw as its decadence. The first World Trade Center bombing, in 1993, al Qaeda attacks on American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, on the USS Cole in 2000, the 9/11 attacks, and those in the dozen years since—all were fueled by Islamist hatred for the U.S. and its values.” 
            –Michael Mukasey, attorney general of the United States from 2007 to 2009

          • kentchris

            What part does US political, economic, and cultural imperialism along with our  reliance on oil play in this conflict. Also how does the belief among some of our fellow countrymen s belief in end times philosophy affect this conflict.

        • OnPointComments

          I agree with WorriedfortheCountry, let’s try to stay a little more current, but for reference the Crusades were waged in retaliation for centuries of Islamic aggression.  
           
          From Michael Barone:
          “Decent Muslims are not responsible for the atrocity perpetrated by the Tsarnaev brothers.  However, it is hopelessly naive at this point to speak of a “tiny minority of extremists” hijacking the religion of a billion people.  The radical elements of Islam are larger and more powerful than that.  They enjoy financial and cultural support from malevolent political factions who find Islam a comfortable fit with their ideology.  The same media that never stops trying to weave an intellectual web between mainstream conservatism and bloodthirsty murderers is willing to discreetly avert its gaze from the radicalization of Islam overseas, and the tentacles these radicals are working patiently to extend into the United States.”

    • brettearle

      Your suggestion that Progressives are apologists for Islamic fundamentalistic violence is blisteringly ignorant.

      Name one such man, or woman–whom you know or whom you have heard–that backs up your pathetic claim.

      Your bias makes things worse.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=584394991 Milen Penchev

    By the way, why didn’t the Russians interrogate Tamerlan Tsarnaev when he came to visit last year, if they so wanted to talk to him? They asked the FBI to question him in 2011, but no red flag came when he presented his Russian passport at the Moscow airport?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       They are reporting that he somehow traveled under an alias so he was off the radar.

      • brettearle

        If that’s true, then there has to be more suspicion that he received help and/or training.

    • anon

      See Craig Murray’s blog post about this. He is a former British ambassador to Uzbekistan, very familiar with Russian intelligence and someone whom I take seriously. (And let me say that I normally am not a ‘conspiracy theory’ advocate.) He says bluntly that the story can’t be true – that Russian intelligence services would never have let this guy come into Russia, then travel to Dagestan, then leave again so easily.

      There are also reports that he got a new Russian passport recently, and apparently that involves a very detailed check so it’s hard to believe that all this happened while Russians security personnel considered him a threat.

  • Blue_To_Shoe

    _____________________________________–I absolutely agree with the caller that referenced the killing of innocent Muslim citizens occurring under our wars/occupations: to this very day…I’m upset about a story I heard last year about an errant NATO bombing run in Afghanistan killing a dozen little boys. HOWEVER, the caller was spouting a tired ‘canned ham’ axiom about Western hegemony in the Muslim world as the primary culprit in incidents such as ‘Boston’, because Muslims themselves are FAR MORE responsible for Muslim deaths than any other group!!!!His answer doesn’t account for the sectarianism that kills far more innocent Muslims daily.His answer doesn’t account for the littler girl being shot in head on a school bus by the Taliban.His answer doesn’t account for the Islamist group ‘Al Shabaab’ in Africa killing numerous innocent Muslims. Every society seems to have it’s dark side: for years now…all I’ve heard about India has been generally positive – India as one of the burgeoning economic powers in the world.Now….ever since the awful bus rape that occurred a few months ago, I’m seeing stories weekly about India’s apparent dark side – violence, resentment and oppression against women.American has a ‘dark’ obsession with race.China has an apparent ‘dark’ obsession with control.This constant state of violent reprisal seems to simply be an integral (and ‘dark’) part of Muslim culture.–_____________________________________

  • mozartman

    Please – Enough Already!!! This is a tragic event with many lives affected by it. But the 24/7 news coverage, the entire lock down of a large metro area at the cost of an estimated $1 BILLION, no bloody detail too small not to get blown out of proportion, is a bit too much. Every time something like that happens, CNN and Co. go into overdrive. It plays right into the hands of such criminals who crave attention. Osama Bib Laden may have paid the price, but he certainly achieved his goal of crippling the US with trillions of war costs for decades to come and with instability in several countries. He got a lot of bucks for his bang. Same for those two guys. 

    The US is obsessed with total security which will never be possible. We allow the killings of tens of thousands of our own citizens by having some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the world, yet freak out about two next door psychos. We overreact to our own detriment and pay a high price. Total security will only come with a total security state and much limited civil liberties. 

    Every death through terrorism or other violent means is deplorable, but lets see things in perspective. You are far more likely to drown in your own bath tub, get hit by lightning or get shot by a common criminal than get killed in a terrorist event. Yet we don’t seem to care much about tens of thousands or murders in our own country but go apoplectic is somebody throws a bombs at a sport event. This is not to deny to personal tragedy of the people affected by those bombs, but please let’s be more rational and measured in our responses.

    • Trond33

      I completely concur.  Media sensationalism carry’s a lot of the blame.  Also, the “security state” or the military industrial complex, countless individuals and companies in that arena that owe their entire existence the security apparatus is a much bigger cancer on US society.  They preach fear in order to justify their own existence.  

      Just last week, On Point had Carrie Cordero, director of national security studies and adjunct professor of law and Georgetown University Law Center, on the show.  She sounded like an irrational alarmist who long ago drank the Kool Aid.  She reminded me of a pharmaceutical sales rep who will argue all day long that all drugs are great.  

      These individuals within the US government and the para military law enforcement establishment scare me more than a terrorist.  As an individual, you are thousands of times more likely to be hit crossing the road than be the victim of a terrorist attack. 

      • donniethebrasco

         You don’t like this story because it doesn’t fit your desired narrative.

    • brettearle

      For me, the reason for the clamor is clear:

      The American public has ALWAYS believed that they live in a SAFE country–where families can grow up, without the chance of foreign enemies invading or striking them.

      That is less true now–and in a way, never has been true.

      Our country does not have the benefit of historical memory as Europe does–with regard to destruction wreaked from enemy attacks of all kinds, throughout the continent, for centuries.

      We are therefore not accustomed to the sense of danger that Europeans take more granted.

      It is too uncomfortable for us. 

      The Public’s fear drives Media coverage and Media coverage drives Public fear.  

      • mozartman

        Yet Americans seem almost oblivious to the gun related carnage in their own country which is far above that of every other industrialized nation.  Just look at Newtown and the aftermath.  Congress voted down some very mild regulations that most Americans want, yet they quickly forget and vote the same people into office again.  In one year, Newtown will be almost forgotten, like so many mass shootings in the past.  Yet a bomb that killed three people, bad as it is no doubt, will launch another round of insane spending to keep us “safe” while dozens of us get gunned down every day across the nation with no reaction whatsoever. Gun laws are sacred, yet civil liberties will get cut back again, playing right into the hands of those two criminals.  I don’t even want to use the word terrorist.  They were criminals, just like a drug kingpin who kills by the dozen.  Just today I read about a shooting that left five dead in WA state.  it’s local news at best, yet Boston gets us all freaked out.  It’s ridiculous. 

         To a victim of violence  it doesn’t make a difference if she or he has been killed by a bomb from a foreign born guy or by a gun from a street criminal.  To equate some radical bomb throwers to the conflicts that have ravaged Europe for centuries is a bit of a stretch. We have plenty of home grown psychopaths so why do we panic if they are foreigners versus native?  It’s irrational and mostly media driven. Then ad some stupid comments from  politicians who want to use that incident to further their own agendas and we have a toxic brew of fear and mistrust.  If I were a prospective terrorist (to those in the vast intelligence community who snoop on that post, I am a harmless person) who wants to inflict maximum psychological damage and monetary cost, I would pay close attention to what’s going on with the Boston coverage.  

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Were you complaining that there was too much national media coverage of Newtown?

          By your logic, a future mass murderer should ‘pay close attention to what’s going on with the Newtown coverage’.

          Also, the Boston terrorist attack didn’t just kill 3 people. It injured over 170 and many of those were maimed and lost limbs.

          • mozartman

            personally, I find that what happened in Newtown to be far more troubling that what has happened in Boston.  You have an average Joe with easy access to guns, thanks to our irrational attachment to guns,  who was able to massacre over two dozen humans, most of them children.  “Terrorism” by foreigners is far rarer and guys like the older brother were already on the radar screen of the Russians and the FBI.  The Adam Lanzas in the US will never be on anybody’s radar screen until they strike.  What they do is far more random and scary – and more frequent too.  

            Was there too much coverage of Newtown?  Given the tragedy probably not.  It was also very different coverage.  It was reasonable and somber.  Boston is sensationalist since some foreigners were involved from a nation most Americans don’t even now how to pronounce let alone know where it is.  

            It’s the aftermath of both events that trouble me – if it’s a local killer, nothing changes.  Not even stupid gun laws.  We shrug it off and move on. if it’s a foreign killer(s), all hell breaks lose and civil liberties for all are thrown out the window.  To quote Franklin (I think it was him): “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Both incidents are troubling and deserved coverage.

            I disagree with your analysis about Boston.  The coverage was not driven by the fact that they were foreign born — that was simply coverage of facts.

            Gun laws were changed in CT.  Didn’t you notice?  The irony is the laws passed would have done nothing to prevent Newtown.

            Chicago has the strictest gun laws in the country and yet it has the highest rate of gun violence.

            I guess you are selective in which civil liberties are important to protect.  Here is another quote from a Founder.

            “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason
            for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last
            resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”

            -Thomas Jefferson

          • mozartman

            We can throw quotes at each other which own’t solve anything.  The fact remains, that America regards gun laws as sacrosanct - never to be changed or only with great difficulty. So what if CT changed them – you can just go elsewhere to arm yourself.  Yet civil liberties, which are far more important are thrown out the window very quickly it seems. When Jefferson coined that quote, guns could accurately fire ONE  bullet over a few hundred feet and reloading was time consuming.  I bet that if he saw what’s going on today, he would change his mind.  For the life of me I don’t see any practical purpose to having military style weapons in the hands of inexperienced weekend warriors and deranged individuals. In Israel, which is a far more terror prone country, you get 50 bullets as an individual – for life.  One officer there said that if you need more than that, you have a problem that even 300 bullets cannot solve.  But Americans go out and buy thousands of bullets.  They are all paranoid psychos as far as I am concerned. 

            As for Chicago, that comparison is ridiculous. if you just have to drive a few miles to Indiana or another state with lax gun laws, all restrictions in Chicago won’t help.  If even one state has lax laws, then it won’t matter what others are doing. The fact is – all guns start out a legal weapons, but through huge loopholes like gun shows and private sales, many of them end up in the hands of criminals. The Boston Brothers had quite an arsenal and easily obtained their arms.   Unless those loopholes are plugged, we will see many more Newtons.

            The media reported the facts, but then blew the whole event beyond what’s reasonable.  Add to that to over reaction in Boston to shut down an entire metro area of over 2 million to catch ONE killer.  Was OK City shut down?  Or other cities with killers on the lose?  

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            When Jefferson coined that quote the government also had guns that fired one shot at time.  In Switzerland every household is required to have a military rifle in their home.

            None of my Boston neighbors who I spoke to had any issue with the brief shutdown.

            All of the gun laws proposed limit the rights of law abiding citizens but do little to address the gun problem amongst criminals.  My view is it time to address the real problem and not this ‘feel good’ nonsense.

          • mozartman

            I start a new post at the top or we run out of space

          • nj_v2

            The clown posse just keeps pumping out the bovine excrement.

            More bogus disinformation funneled from radical right-wing extemist sites by the disingenuous liars that infect this forum.

            These people are dangerous, rewriting history and spreading lies.

            Jefferson never said what WorriedLiar posted.

            http://kryo.com/2ndAmen/Quotes.htm

            Occasionally this phony quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson is given with the following citation: Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950). The publication exists, but the quote does not. And the editor’s correct name is Julian P. Boyd, not C.J. Boyd. In other cases, this quote is added to the end of a proven Jefferson quote “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms…” Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344.

            HOWEVER, HE DIDN’T SAY IT! IT’S BOGUS! IT’S MADE UP!

            (For what Jefferson REALLY said about the reason for and meaning of the 2nd Amen, see reference to the Priestley letter atPurpose of the 2nd Amendment.)

            But even the partially true cite is not the whole story:

            This is NOT the same as what he ACTUALLY said, in context:

            “No Freeman shall be debarred the use of arms in his own lands or tenements.”

            AND it is NOT complete. It is therefore a MISQUOTE, rather than being a quote. Misquoting and partial quoting out of context is typical of hoplophile pseudoscholarship, and one merely has to GO to the URL site where these bastardized quotes are compiled to see a whole string of similar pettifoggery, a whole series of INACCURATE, INCOMPLETE, and OUT-OF-CONTEXT misquotes that misrepresent what each author was actually saying.

            Sloppy research leads to sloppy presentation, and hoplophiles have been doing this consistently.

            Back to the cite: Incomplete, inaccurate, out of context, never enacted.

            Therefore, irrelevant and misleading.

            (excerpt)

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Another ugly personal attack by NJ. If it is an inaccurate quote it doesn’t make me a liar — it just makes me mistaken.

            And it is irrelevant to the debate I was having with morzartman.  It was a throw-away quote in response to the Ben Franklin quote.

          • nj_v2

            What’s ugly is your mindless regurgitation of whatevercrap you find on your extremistright-wing Web sites.

            Made more so by your sniveling prevaricating: “it was a throwaway.” It was “irrelevant.”

          • Ray in VT

            The Jefferson “quote” makes me think of that “democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch” quote, which gets attributed to Ben Franklin, but it can only be traced to the 1990s I think.

          • bzeealbub

            Notice the phrase “Free Man”. That Did Not refer to women, blacks or any white man who doesn’t own property. In the original vernacular, I’ld like to see somebody trying to enforce the original meaning, because like all documents over two hundred years old things and wording changes.

          • jefe68

            Nope, You are wrong.
            But it does depend no how you do the stats:

            I’ve read other list in which Alaska is #1 and Louisiana is #2. 
            LouisianaAlaskaAlabamaArizonaMississippiSouth CarolinaNew MexicoMissouriArkansasGeorgia
            http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/report/2013/04/02/58382/america-
            under-the-gun/

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/03/us/report-links-high-rates-of-gun-violence-to-weak-laws.html?_r=0

          • J__o__h__n

            There was a lot of coverage of this before we knew the suspects were foreign born.  Most of the early speculation was that it was right wing nuts due to the date.  That was my own first thought.  (I refrained from posting as it was pure speculation.  It turned out to be my second guess.)  It is more alarming that the younger brother appeared to have become a fully assimilated American who did this more than the threat from a foreigner. 

        • brettearle

          Your points are strong and well presented.

          Here are a few reactions:

          The public sees foreign threats as much more intimidating than shootings–which have been part of our James Cagney movie culture for years.

          It is generally important, I believe, to analyze and separate domestic threats from foreign ones–even though the tragic end result might be the same.

          We have to know who each and every one of our enemies, is.

          The Media does magnify–but the Public has the right to know. 

          Richard Clarke–if you don’t know who he is, look him up–has backed up your point about future terrorist groups:

          These would be plotters see that you can be successful.

          Clarke was one of the pointmen, at the White House, during 9/11.

          He’s a specialist on Foreign Terror.

          Auf wider luge! 

          [umlaut over the `u' in the third word]

          • mozartman

            I look at such threats more from a probability standpoint, but most people in the US and also abroad usually bring in emotions, even though it makes no sense.  In that respect I am as emotionless as a cold fish. 

            I fear the drivers next to me on my daily commute far more than any terrorist organization.  A person texting  next to me is a clear danger. Yet most people shrug it off and have irrational fears about some guys with long beards in a far away country.  Chances are so minuscule to get killed by a bona fide terrorist that they rank close to getting hit by a meteor.  Lighting kills far more people and they strike randomly too, as do crazy drivers or freak accidents.  Maybe I am too rational about that whole thing to get very much excited if a couple of badly adjusted psychos (one was more normal it seems, but followed his brother) throw some bombs into the crowd.  I would attend any sport event without hesitation knowing that the odds of getting killed driving to and from are far greater than during the actual event. I simply cannot understand panicky, irrational and illogical  people. It’s alien to me.  The media did it’s best to add to the panic to make some extra bucks.  

            Richard Clarke is part of the growing security apparatus that operates as a state within the state.  I am not a conspiracy, govt. hating type of person, but some of these people scare me.  of course they have to hype up everything to keep and justify their jobs.  Even the smallest threat is blown out of every proportion.  Remember the ridiculous color coded terror alarm system?  When it was yellow  what was I supposed to do?  Stay in bed the whole day?  Follow the money my friend and you will find lots of very shady deals ala Blackwater.

            I just accept that there are crazy people on this planet and at times they do crazy things.  That’s just life and I refuse to be cowed by them in any way.  I fear texting teenagers, people who walk the street with open guns (legal where I live), industrial pollution and the overuse of antibiotics.  They are threat to me, not the brothers Tsarnaev. They are small fish in a sea of real threats. 

            Wo haben Sie gewohnt in der Schweiz? 

          • brettearle

            In Zurich.

            In der nahe from Uetliberg.
                                   [Utliberg?]

            Auf der Goodstrasse.  Tram 6.

            Kennen sie?

          • mozartman

            Ich kenne Zurich nicht so gut wie Basel.  Aber ich weiss wo Uetliberg ist.  Schoene Gegend.  

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       You’d prefer more cover of the Jodi Arias trial or Snookie’s love life instead?

      There are clear public benefits of intense coverage of this terrorist attack.  Among them include understanding how the perpetrators became radicalized.  If the public is aware of the warning signs they might be able to recognize the signs and nip a future attack before it happens.

      Also, the public might be more vigilant in the future.  Did someone notice the abandoned backpack?  Maybe lives could have been saved and injuries averted if people had noticed and backed away.

    • anon

      I think that the coverage from a Boston radio station is justified. I think the coverage nationally and internationally was way overblown, though. I was watching Al-Jazeera, who stayed with this 24/7 (although their reporting was very cautious), while dozens of people were killed in bombings in Iraq, there was a large earthquake in Iran and Pakistan, etc… yet those got a brief mention every few hours, if that.

  • brettearle

    But Tom made the point that there are many, many examples of family dysfunction that do not wind up with such murderous violence.

    And he was right.

    It’s NOT simply one cause.

  • brettearle

    Maybe both.

    It’s an interesting point that you raise.

    But I’m more of the mind that his rejection from Olympic opportunities, as a boxer, contributed to his disaffection.

    I am reminded of Timothy McVeigh’s bitterness about being rejected for elite forces in the Service.

  • brettearle

     Do you believe that the FBI, the ATF, and Homeland Security would have gone public, had they not had much more incriminating evidence–including a number of other photographs?

    Do you believe that it was either a fabrication, or a coincidence, that the suspects were throwing out grenades and other explosives, at their pursuers–not to mention shooting bullets at the cruisers? 

  • Leaping_Lupus

    D.A. friend in FL commented: “One thing that the authorities didn’t have is what all sheriffs and
    police departments down here have – dogs.  Once a suspect is on foot, a
    trained dog can follow his path in urban areas as well as rural.  In
    cases where I represented the captured suspect over the years, I have
    been amazed at the dogs’ ability.  The all-day manhunt in Watertown
    could have been reduced to less than an hour.  Of course there are some
    drawbacks to dogs – they often bite the suspects and if a police dog
    gets injured or killed, animal rights activists go berserk.  But Barney
    Fife would have been more capable than all of the FBI and Massachusetts
    authorities put together in making the capture.”

    Even if no people-sniffers in metro Boston surely several with handlers could have been helicoptered in within an hour.  Anyone know why they weren’t? 

    Think of direct cost of incredible man-hunt to local/federal taxpayers and indirect cost to local businesses, psychological benefits of moving forward with “new normal” life.

    Can anyone please explain?  Could we maybe have this discussed/debated on air?

    {Apologize in advance if this addressed earlier/elsewhere. Too much coverage to keep up with all of it.}

    • anon

      I wondered that, too. And I can’t help wondering if it has something to do with the astronomical sums spent on ‘homeland security’ high-tech equipment…

      • tmcenroe

        They had dogs in the search. 

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      And how about their high-tech search dog? Why didn’t the helicopter’s inferred camera see him in the boat hours before getting the tip from the homeowner?

      • brettearle

        Copter surveillance, with infra-red technology, may be more of a painstaking process then we realize–and that to use the technology efficiently, one might need to get a more focused location tip, than simply the town.

        • Expanded_Consciousness

          I live in Watertown. Franklin was just outside their perimeter. Their perimeter for searching houses might have been small because of the painstaking process of carefully checking each house, but the helicopters should have been searching the bushes and yards of a slightly wider area. They were flying overhead all day, but somehow missed him.

    • brettearle

       Dogs were used in the manhunt–but I do not know how extensively.

  • donniethebrasco

     More importantly, he experience the misanthropy of radical Islam.

  • donniethebrasco

     Are you going to call Alex Jones or George Noory later?

    • brettearle

      Probably will call the Tri-lateral commission first.  

  • marygrav

    We in the United States have to realize the “events” that occurred in Boston is how most people in the Middle East and Central Asia live on a daily bases.  When we heard George W. Bush declare “war on terror,” that we on the mainland were included too.

    Boston reminds me of a Vietnamese “boatperson” told me about a carnival that was going on in her hometown and she and her brothers and sisters begged to go.  Her father said not because of the danger.  A bomb went off and several people were killed.

    Terrorism after the invasion of Iraq has become a Karma that has been circling US since that day.  9/11 occurred due more to US hubris than to Islamist terrorist because WE were lulled into believing, IT CAN’T HAPPEN HERE!  Now that it has happened, what do we do?  Congress says WE should take it out on some Hispanic immigrants who only crime is to cross the border seeking a employment, and not terrorism.  They’ve been terrorized enough in Latin America with poverty and want.

    The so-called illegal immigrants are here for many reasons.  One of the biggest is the Dirty Wars and the U.S. refusal to put pressure on the Mexican government to take care of it own peasants.  Human Rights was never extended to brown people in Latin America.

    It has always been the policy of the US to allow South American to cross its border as a safety valve so that there would never be revalution on its southern border.

    I still believe the biggest terrorist organization in the world is the US Congress itself.

  • Gregg Smith

    Where did these guys get their money? They drove fancy cars, wore fancy clothes, trotted off to Dagestan for six months and on and on.

    What was the role of Abdul Rahman Ali Alharbi the Saudi National. Has he been deported? First he was a person of interest in the bombing and now he being deported (or already has been)  under section 212 3B? That’s not small potatoes.

    • brettearle

      The money issue is a legitimate question.

      And I have heard, from a sometimes reliable source, that the Saudi WAS on a general list of having possible subversive affiliations.

      Which may be the biggest reason that he was picked up–though they, very likely, acted much too expediently on that one.

  • mozartman

    @worriedforthecountry: it just so happens that I am part Swiss and have family there.  I also lived there for many years. Yes, my cousins had guns in their home, but only a few bullets.  The ammo clip was sealed and had to be unsealed by an officer when they went to practice shooting.  if the seal was broken, they would have had a big problem on their hand. Only in times of war were they allowed to break that seal. When their service is over they can either buy the gun or return it, but restrictions on ammo remain.  Statistically, the Swiss have more guns per capita than the US, but at least they know how to use them since training is very extensive, mainly through compulsory military service.  You either serve or you go to jail.  Here in the US, every hick can buy an AR 15 and not go through any training whatsoever.  None, zero, zip.  These people scare me far more than the occasional terrorist.  

    Also, in Switzerland, all guns are registered and permits are renewed like a driver’s license.  if you commit a crime or appear to be unstable, the guns are gone. Gun shows and private sales are prohibited.  You have to register a sale with the authorities or you get into big trouble.   Switzerland has been independent since the 1200s and never has any govt. there tried to take away guns, even though they are tightly controlled and registered.  That’s one of the irrational fears that many US gun advocates use to thwart any and all reasonable gun control that the vast majority of Americans support (90% of so are for extended background checks). 

    Lastly, in Switzerland you have a well functioning mental health care system and people in general are less paranoid, even though they have lived in a very unstable neighborhood for centuries.  They simply lack the irrational animosity against govt. that afflicts so many Americans. There is the occasional shooting, but it’s mostly a husband killing his wife and such.  Random street crime is very rare and the murder rate is minuscule.  Before you come up with the argument that the US has so many foreigners, Switzerland has far more as a percent of the population.  So either Americans are very violence prone, which would call for stricter, not loser gun regulations, or we have become so numbed to this daily carnage that we don’t care anymore.  It’s the latter I am afraid. 

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Thank you for the information on Switzerland.  I found it interesting.

      Yes, we have issues with the culture of violence.  We also have issues with mental health.  Aurora, Gabby Giffords and Newtown were all related to mental health.  However, the remedy isn’t necessarily stricter gun laws.

      “US gun advocates use to thwart any and all reasonable gun control that
      the vast majority of Americans support (90% of so are for extended
      background checks).”
      That is very  misleading.  I am for closing some of the gun show loopholes but I don’t support the specific amendment that recently failed in the Senate.  There was also very little coverage of an alternative gun control bill that was offered by some Republicans but shot down.  In fact there has been very little debate of coverage of the details of either bill. 

      Most gun violence is with illegal guns — like in Chicago.  Why don’t they enforce the gun laws in Chicago?  Instead they try and restrict the rights of non-criminals.  The net effect is fewer guns in the hands of non-criminals and the criminals are still armed.j

      “Here in the US, every hick can buy an AR 15 and not go through any training whatsoever.”  That isn’t true in MA.  You need to pass a training course to get a license.

      http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm

      • mozartman

        There is a difference between buying a gun and having a license.  In most countries it’s the same and the two are linked.  Here you can buy a gun in many states at a gun show and not license it.  criminals of course do that, which add to our high crime rate.  of course they don’t license a gun, only law abiding citizens do that.  The law needs to be changed so that you first need a license to buy a gun and not the other way around. 

        Republicans and gun regulations have about as much in common as christian fundamentalists and evolution.  Nobody takes them seriously at that, so the bill died.  It was all cosmetic and had no teeth to it.

        As for Chicago, what are they supposed to do.  You can drive 30 minutes to Indiana right over the border and attend huge gun shows.  Cash and carry, no questions asked.  I saw several undercover film clips (CNN for one) where reporters went to those shows in several states and bought a veritable arsenal worthy of a drug kingpin   The sellers were supposed to ask for an ID to check if the buyer is form in-state, but few did.  After 5 minutes of haggling, the deal was struck.  At those shows you can also stock up on ammo as much as you like.  D.C. also has strict laws and you can take a bus to Virginia and stock up there, no questions asked.  Neither Chicago or D.C. have a wall around their cities and states don’t have border controls.  So of course they are awash in guns.  If 49 states were to restrict gun sales and impose better regulations like the Swiss and one state does not, all criminals will go to that one state and buy their guns.  Unless we have a nationwide tight regulation regime, Chicago and Co. can pass whatever laws they want, to no effect. Tell me how they are supposed to enforce them if they cannot control what comes in from out of state.  Ever heard of smuggling?

        I see that in Utah where I live.  Many fireworks are banned here due to extreme fire danger in a dry desert state.  Yet you drive 45 min to Wyoming and right across the border are huge roadside stands selling every imaginable firework. 95% of all license plates in the parking lot are form Utah.  The state is powerless to do anything about that and only steps in when the damage has been done.  Same for lottery and gambling which are illegal here too.  So Utahns go to Nevada and Idaho to engage in both activities. Same for liquor which is cheaper in surrounding states and gets into the state by the truckload.  Cigarettes form Virginia to New York is another such smuggling business.  That’s exactly what happens with guns across the nation.  

    • brettearle

      If you can’t cure the person–which is VERY hard to do–then you have to take away his gun.

      If you can’t identify the unstable person, before he strikes–which is VERY hard to do–then you have to take away his gun.

      Americans are, as you say, violence prone.

      Children who play with matches should never play with matches.

      When they grow up, they should never play with the stronger stuff.

      Do we need to protect ourselves from criminals or do we need to protect ourselves from ourselves?

      Ich sollte Ihnen reden:

      Ich habe in der Schweiz gewhont.

      • mozartman

        So what do you suggest – more guns or better regulations?

        As a European it’s difficult for me to comprehend the affection Americans have for guns, but I understand the historical background.  Nevertheless, we are now a much more crowded nation of 320 million and not a country where you could just claim 160 acres and settle disputes with your neighbors with the gun.  

        Most Americans are no more violence prone than say the Swiss – the vast majority of neighborhoods in the US are as safe as any in Europe.  Crime is highly concentrated among some groups and areas and the flow of illegal guns from the legal market adds gasoline to the fire.  

        Gruezi

    • hennorama

      mozartman – Thank you for sharing your clear explanation of the way firearms and related issues are treated by the Swiss government and Swiss society at large.

  • MordecaiCarroll

    Yes, everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty – that is as it should be.  That being said the evidence is stacked high up against the Tsarnaev’s.

    To argue that the Tsarnaev’s are innocent you have to believe:

    1) It was just a coincidence that on Friday night when they tried to flee Cambridge, they had a stockpile of ammo and grenades as well as a pressure cooker bomb similar to those used at the marathon. 

    2) The whole story from beginning to end was a frame, is entirely made-up and the conspiracy to frame them included FBI, local police, media and random people who sent in /posted online photos of the bombers at the site of the Marathon bombing.

    Neither of these seem plausible at all to me.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Apt observations from Mark Steyn on the latest developments.


    Nobody could have seen this coming:

    ‘Boston bombing suspects Tamerlan, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev appeared to lead normal lives’

    If by “normal lives”, you mean reported to the US Government by a major
    foreign power as possible terrorists, interviewed by the FBI, had your
    citizenship application put on hold, and cheerily posting a series of
    videos to YouTube as part of your “Terrorists” playlist. No doubt
    millions of people in America lead lives that “normal”.”

    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/346252/there-aint-nobody-here-us-chechens

    • brettearle

      The FBI can’t follow suspicious characters around unless they have probable cause or something close to it.

      If the FBI didn’t see it coming, who could have?

    • hennorama

      WorriedfortheCountry – I have to commend Mr. Steyn for his use of the phrase “reported to the US Government by a major foreign power” in that he did not succumb to the more hyperbolic “WE WERE WARNED” phrase that is echoing about.

      The phrase “reported to” is far more neutral and appropriate. Personally, I would describe the “2011 Request for Information on Tamerlan Tsarnaev” in the FBI’s statement as the US government being “alerted to” Tsarnaev, since “alerted to” connotes a somewhat higher level of potential threat. But certainly “warned about” is inappropriate, as it connotes an imminent threat.

      Clearly, the fact that the FBI investigated Tamerlan Tsarnaev previously is troubling, and questions about this are appropriate and will be asked.

    • Gregg Smith

      The more details that come out the more I don’t understand why he was allowed to stay. I hate to criticize the FBI but after we were warned by the Russians the leash should have been short. Hindsight’s 20/20 and the FBI has thousands of issues to deal with but there was ample opportunities and reasons to send him packing. The wife beating alone for a man of his questionable status should have been enough.

      I also find it odd that they had to ask the public to identify them. Surely they had a file on him and there was a database. If not, why? The Russians are also wondering how he slipped through the cracks

  • hennorama

    LinRp – all relevant questions, still mostly unanswered.

    One thing is certain, however – the pull of “home” is strong, almost regardless of what one might dispassionately view as superior alternatives.

  • Potter

    Blowback. Solidarity.  We kill a lot of people- Muslims.  Lone actors maybe maybe not– but the justification in their minds could be powerful enough.  

  • bzeealbub

    You know if this had been twenty five years ago my first thoughts on the bombing would have been something having to do with the IRA. And really for a couple of hours didn’t most people think it might have something to do with any number of fringe groups already in the US, that range from skin heads and the aryan nation, to people who do not want to pay taxes. I mean think about it, a day called Patriots Day? Where else is that even celebrated?

    • jefe68

      The IRA setting of a bomb in Boston?
      Not very likely. Do you have any idea how much money was raised for them in this city?

      • Ray in VT

        Plus the IRA was okay because it didn’t attack the U.S.  ;)

  • LetsGetReal

    What happened in Boston is but a small scale sampling of the terror that crater burrowing, vehicle twisting, homes obliterating multiple victim killing and maiming US drone attacks have been visiting upon innocents by remote control thousands of miles away. Terror that accompanies innocent people around the clock in their daily life for years on end.

    When it happens in the US once in a blue moon: wall-to-wall media saturation coverage, inexhaustible “expert” pundit platitudes and endless wails of indignation, outrage, grief, self-righteousness, odes to heroism, resilience etc. ad nauseum.  When the big WHY question is asked maybe the time has come for Americans to imagine folks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia asking that very same question.

  • hennorama

    BREAKING REPORT from NBC’s Pete Williams, Michael Isikoff, Tom Winter and Tracy Connor at 9:00 PM EST April 22, 2013:

    “Officials: Hospitalized bombing suspect says he and brother acted alone, motivated by religion”

    “The hospitalized Boston Marathon bombing suspect charged Monday with using a weapon of mass destruction has told investigators that he and his brother were motivated by religion but were not in contact with overseas terrorists or groups, officials said.

    “Several officials familiar with the initial interrogation of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev described his behavior during questioning as cooperative.

    “A senior government official said Tsarnaev has told investigators — by writing some answers down, and by nodding yes or shaking his head no to others — that he and his brother were not in touch with any overseas terrorists or groups.

    “Tsarnaev, who has injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly, also indicated that he and his brother conceived the bombing attack on their own, and were motivated by religious fervor.

    “They got their instructions on how to make bombs from the Internet, he said, according to these officials.”

    See:http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17860373-officials-hospitalized-bombing-suspect-says-he-and-brother-acted-alone-motivated-by-religion?lite

    DISCLAIMER: No sources were named in the quotes above. I make no claims as to their accuracy other than that the words above were quoted accurately from the indicated website. The reader is advised to make their own independent determinations regarding the accuracy of the reporting.

    • Ray in VT

      Hopefully those statements are true, although certainly a thorough investigation should be done to attempt to ensure that they did act alone.  Also, the disclaimer is interesting.

      • Gregg Smith

        I agree completely.

      • Gregg Smith

        I want to elaborate on the “thorough investigation”. There has been a lot of speculation as to the tactics of Al Qaeda and one often discussed tactic is the wave effect. That is, many attacks over and over in many places instead of one big massive 9/11. 

        We’ve had this tragedy, the Texas fertilizer plant (they still don’t know the cause), the ricin thing and today another attack was thwarted in Canada. There have been more people arrested in connection with the marathon. There are allegations of a 12 person sleeper cell. I’m not a conspiracy guy and they all are most likely unrelated but can we be sure? What will happen tomorrow?

        • Ray in VT

          The events which you list may just fall into the category of “celebrities always die in threes”.  At this point there isn’t any evidence linking any of these incidents, although it is certainly possible.

          Do you have a source for arrests and allegations of a sleeper cell?  I know of the two people arrested in New Bedford, but DHS isn’t saying that whether or not they are in any way involved with the bombing, although they certainly could be.  There have been a lot of allegations flying around in the past 8 days, and some of them have been highly irresponsible, with the New York Post’s actions regarding the two teenagers that it identified being probably the most egregious.

          • Gregg Smith

            Yea, the NY Post thing was pretty bad. The 12 per on sleeper cell allegation was reported in the UK Mirror and on KDKA. I linked it a couple of days ago. It could be bogus but my view is we should assume the worst. I was indeed referring to the arrest in New Bedford.

            Janet Napolitano (DHS) was asked about the Saudi’s deportation on Thursday and she angrily said she was “…unaware of anyone who is being deported for national security concerns at all related to Boston.”

            It turns out the deportation order was revoked the previous evening. That’s what we’re dealing with. I won’t call it a lie but I don’t trust her. 

            Again, all of this could be, and probably is unrelated or based on faulty information. I asked last night: “What will happen tomorrow?”

            http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/23/17872214-car-bomb-hits-french-embassy-in-libya?lite

            Drip, drip, drip.

          • Ray in VT

            Do you have a source regarding the deportation order?  Basically all that I found when I was doing some looking yesterday was from the Blaze, and I have really no faith in Glen Beck.

            As for your link, I would ask so what?  Boko Haram clashed with Nigerian forces a couple of days ago.  At least 42 people died in bombings in Iraq.  Buddhists have been killing Muslims in Burma.  Lots of bad stuff happens in the world every day.

          • Gregg Smith

            I do trust Glenn Beck, you don’t have to. The document was altered at 5:35 PM on Wednesday. He says he has the documents and will release them. He (or it may have been Hannity) had a congressman on (sorry, don’t remember who) who claims to have first hand knowledge. We’ll see.

            Embassies are not bombed by Al Qaeda everyday. The Canada attempt was an Al Qaeda plot. I’m not making any allegations other than noting the steady drip and acknowledging Al Qaeda has said the wave affect is a strategy. Everything may be totally unrelated.

            I wonder what will happen tomorrow?

          • Gregg Smith

            BTW Ray, I am amazed at how this always happens but I want to remind you that I’m agreeing with you. Take yes for an answer.

          • Ray in VT

            I don’t trust Glenn Beck one bit.  I’ve yet to see any of those FEMA concentration camps.  That’s my favorite one of his.  If he has information that has yet to come to light, then let him do it and let the facts stand by themselves, but, considering his history of pushing various conspiracy theories, I am definitely not going to take his word for it.

            Tomorrow will probably bring more stuff that is awful, which will likely drown out all of the good things that go on in the world.  The world’s been going to hell in a hand basket for centuries.  The actors, tactics and weapons have changed, but it’s always been there, and our modern world is no exception.

        • hennorama

          Why don’t not throw in the earthquakes in Iran and China and Indonesia as well while you’re at it?

          There are lots of Muslims and Communists affiliated with these events, so they must be part of a terrorist plot or nefarious conspiracy, right?

          I mean if you’re just going to speculatively connect various events, why leave these out?

      • hennorama

        Ray in VT – indeed nothing should be ruled in or out until it is thoroughly investigated and confirmed.

        As to the disclaimer – as I personally am not a fan of information from unnamed sources, especially in “breaking news” circumstances, I felt it appropriate.

        • Gregg Smith

          But if a terrorist puts his name on it and it fits your pre-conceived notions about Bush, no problem.

          • hennorama

            Gregg “April Fool” Smith – why are you so shy about your comment? Allow me to inform the forum as to what you originally posted before your eloquently edited “ .. “ remark:

            “But if a terrorist puts his name on it and it fits your pre-conceived notions about Bush, no problem.”

            Putting aside the fact that any thoughts I may have about Pres. Bush, more than seven years after the remarks in question were reported to have been made, could not ever be “pre-conceived”, you seem a bit obsessed with this, as you’ve referred to it twice now within 24 hours.

            As you did not make specific reference, I am forced to draw the conclusion that you are referring to a post I wrote last month. The topic was “Looking Back At The Iraq War”, from March 18, 2013.

            (see: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2013/03/18/iraq-war#comment-833806849)

            Commenter [wroot] had asked this question – “Is there any credence for my belief that GWB thought he was doing God’s work?”

            This is the portion of my response you appear to have an obsession about, Gregg “I don’t care what you think” Smith:

            [wroot - Do you mean besides these reported remarks?:

            From The Guardian in the UK:

            George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'
            Ewen MacAskillThursday 6 October 2005

            "Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

            "One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

            "Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa ]

            The remainder of my post documented three other items that supported wroot’s “belief that GWB thought he was doing God’s work”, which you bravely ignored and did not discuss in any way.

            By way of reply, you wrote “Bush denied saying that to Nabil Shaath.”

            I then challenged you to live up to your own standards and to provide a quote from President Bush, which you were unable to do. Instead, you pointed to a linked article that quoted Bush spokesperson Scott McClellan, who admitted he was not present when Pres. Bush supposedly said what Nabil Shaath quoted Bush as saying. This obviously is not the same thing as quoting the President, and the fact that Mr. McClellan was not present means that he was merely parroting what someone else (perhaps Karl “Turdblossom” Rove) told him to say.

            You later stated, referring to me, “You quoted a defacto terrorist as the gospel …”, and went on to quote an article indicating that the quotes attributed to Nabil Shaath were semi-disputed by Mahmoud Abbas. I write “semi-disputed” because there are conflicting statements attributed to Abbas contained in the two articles you linked to.

            Your first link, which also contains the McClellan quotes, reported this:

            “The Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the June 2003 meeting as well, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: “I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state.”

            The second link, all the way from The Sydney Morning Herald, reported this, from what was described as “A statement in Abbas’s name released by his office”:

            “This report is not true,” the Abbas statement said today. “I have never heard President Bush talking about religion as a reason behind the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush has never mentioned that in front of me on any occasion and specifically not during my visit in 2003.”

            So your own sources are in conflict, yet “You quoted [Abbas' statement] as the gospel …”

            I will point out once again that I accurately quoted the article and posted the link to said article. I made no claim to its accuracy or the truth of what Nabil Shaath was quoted as having said.

            However, your links contained conflicting information, which one can only suppose you did not read before “You quoted [Abbas' statement] as the gospel …”

            You also wrote this to another poster in the same thread, in complete agreement with wroot’s “belief that GWB thought he was doing God’s work”:

            “Yes, I do think Bush thought he was doing God’s work. I think he believes he does that everyday.”

            I believe your preferred word here is “Checkmate”.

          • Gregg Smith

            It was up for only a a few minutes and I took it down because it served no purpose other than gratuitous nastiness. That’s your game not mine. 

            My comments were completely consistent. I can’t help you if you don’t see the difference between the terrorist saying Bush believes God told him to invade Iraq and what I wrote.

            I find your comment so bizarre and reasoning so warped I’m happy to let it speak for itself. I hope everybody reads it… but no one cares.

    • Gregg Smith

      I hate to pile on Hennorama but you seem to be concerned with the accuracy of the reporting when it’s irrelevant. I don’t think anyone would focus on whether the report accurately described what Tsarnaev was saying. Why would they question it? It makes no difference whatsoever what Tsarnaev says. None. Nothing he says should be believed for an instant. 

      • jefe68

        That’s not for you to decide now is it. Nor me.
        It’s up to a court of law now.

      • hennorama

        Gregg “I don’t know and I don’t care what the dictionary says” Smith – your words “the accuracy of the reporting when it’s irrelevant” speak volumes. This seems typical of your uncaring attitude toward facts and honesty.

        Perhaps the horses tolerate this from you. I do not.

        • Gregg Smith

          I am guessing you now think I think all accuracy in reporting is irrelevant as you completely ignore or miss my point. Just remember, it’s not about me.

          Do you or should you believe Tsarnaev? If the answer is yes then the accuracy of the reporting in this instance matters.

          • hennorama

            Smith – your use of sources which are not merely disputed but contain completely false information, or whose YouTube account “has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement”, coupled with your apparent uncaring attitude toward the accuracy of the reporting involved in the BREAKING REPORT article quoted and linked to above says more about you than I ever could.

            As to anything Mr. Tsarnaev was reported to have said – you may have missed the DISCLAIMER contained in my original post. As previously posited, your obvious memory lapses may also be affecting your eyesight. You may want to get that checked by a health care professional.

            DISCLAIMER: I am not a health care professional and any advice offered should not be interpreted as medical advice.

          • Gregg Smith

            I just got through asking you not to insult my intelligence on another board and here you go again. 

            Your disclaimer was for the accuracy of the reporting of what Tsarnaev said not the accuracy of what he said. Are you denying that? It doesn’t matter what he says so how can it matter how it’s reported?

            Do you or should you believe Tsarnaev? If the answer is yes then the accuracy of the reporting in this instance matters.

            Ignore my point to your hearts content.

          • hennorama

            Spinning the Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic ….. wait for it ….

          • Gregg Smith

            Checkmate.

          • hennorama

            Much
            like its namesake, this Gregg Smith Response-O-Matic thingy is slooooow …

            [Your
            premise is whacked]

      • hennorama

        Gregg “Joe Wilson” Smith –

        You posed several questions to me that were related to the “BREAKING REPORT” item I posted. Allow me to quote you, sir:

        “I don’t think anyone would focus on whether the report accurately described what Tsarnaev was saying. Why would they question it? It makes no difference whatsoever what Tsarnaev says. None. Nothing he says should be believed for an instant.“

        Apparently you were dissatisfied with my reply, as you followed up with:

        “Do you or should you believe Tsarnaev? If the answer is yes then the accuracy of the reporting matters.”

        And then this:

        “Your disclaimer was for the accuracy of the reporting of what Tsarnaev said not the accuracy of what he said. it doesn’t matter what he says so how can it matter how it’s reported?”

        Several points:

        Please re-read the DISCLAIMER in the original post.

        The only reason I posted a “breaking report” is because Pete Williams’ name was on it. Throughout all the shoddy, inaccurate and erroneous reporting of the events over the past week, he has remained clear, cautious and accurate. Still, I personally am not a fan of information from unnamed sources, especially in “breaking news” circumstances. Relying on such reports is “iffy” at best.

        Allow me to quote the article I linked to, in part to show how silly your questions and statements involving “what Tsarnaev was saying”, and “what Tsarnaev says”, and “Nothing he says”, and “the accuracy of what he said”, and “what he says” are:

        “Tsarnaev, who has injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly …”

        “Tsarnaev was brought to the hospital with gunshot wounds to the head, neck, leg and hand. He had been communicating with investigators in writing because he couldn’t speak, federal officials told NBC News.”

        Your inaccurate phrasing as to “what Tsarnaev says” is not surprising. Even the linked article used “he said” in the very next sentence after the one containing the phrase “injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly …”

        Putting that silliness aside – I have no way to determine the truthfulness of any of what the captured suspect Tsarnaev has reportedly communicated to authorities. Unlike you, my mind remains open on the
        topic. Clearly, you would not be able to serve as a juror in this case, as you have prejudged the veracity of Mr. Tsarnaev’s reported communications.

        BTW – subsequent reports have indicated that Mr. Tsarnaev managed to “say” only the single word “No” when asked if he could afford his own attorney.

        • Gregg Smith

          I’m not reading all that. You’re cloggin’ the bloggin’ cause I’m in your noggin’. Let it go, you look silly.

    • donniethebrasco

       I guess the death penalty is on the table.

  • OnPointComments

    An interesting commentary on the ridiculous article “The Boston Bombers Were Muslim: So?” in the “The Atlantic.”
    “Why Does Evil Make Liberals Stupid?”
     http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/04/why-does-evil-make-liberals-stupid.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+powerlineblog%2Flivefeed+(Power+Line)

    • Gregg Smith

      Nailed it, thanks.

      • jefe68

        I rest my case.

    • Ray in VT

      I often ponder what it is that makes some conservatives so stupid.  For instance, in the wake of this terrible attack, in which two men may have acted alone, we have some calling for all American Muslims to shape up or ship out.  Then you get idiotic statements that seem to lack any sort of willingness or ability to understand the search motivation and what pushes people over a certain line into despicable acts.  Take, for instance, this passage from the article:

      “but if she means that we should let the perpetrators of the Marathon
      Massacre, or any who might have aided them, off the hook, then I say
      that she is a typically clueless liberal.”

      That’s just the sort of rather typical garbage that some on the right will spew in response to attempts to understand what leads people to act.

      Some people are angels, some are demons, and most are somewhere in between, I think.  By all accounts the younger brother seemed well assimilated and adjusted until recently.  Those who knew him don’t think that he was capable of this, so the question that should be asked is what changed, and how might that help us to prevent others from going down that road.

      • OnPointComments

        Perhaps it’s not a lack of willingness or ability to understand the search motivation and what pushes people over a certain line into despicable acts, but as Rich Lowry says in the linked article, it’s that some don’t permit themselves to grasp the obvious.  “When has it happened before that young Muslim men beholden to an extreme ideology have visited mayhem and murder on innocents?  …[The motive] will begin and end with radical Islam and hatred of America.”
         
        Radical Islam, Once Again
         The motive of the Boston bombers is obvious to everyone who will look. 
         http://www.nationalreview.com/article/346349/radical-islam-once-again

        • Ray in VT

          Once the perpetrators were identified and their backgrounds known, then we can and certainly should be able to determine their motivations, however, there was certainly an early rush to judgement to blame the Saudi student or some brown guys with backpacks in the crowd.  Considering the history of domestic terrorism by non-Muslims, I thought that such a rush was not justified, even if it did ultimately prove to be true.

          Does it surprise me that some radicalized young Muslim men carried out a terrorist attack.  Globally, not really.  In the U.S, yes, considering how long they had been here and the comments regarding how the younger brother behaved previously.

    • jefe68

      Why does critical thinking make Right wingers so stupid?

  • Tyranipocrit

    What a load of crap–i talk about America’s imperilaism and fascism too!  i say all things like that.  America does kill peopl eby the millions.  American plutocracy performs terroism everyday.  But I dont go out and blow innocent people up at a marathon–even they are teabaggers.  This is extremely offensive by NPR–to highlight the opinion of some plebian–saying such things –which is nothing–only to piant all dissenters as somehow dangerous.  I am passionate about what i say because so many people are so passionaltly apathetic and ignorant and say stupid things.  Some people are just cruel.    So NPr–by interviewing this idiot and broadcasting him–is broadly characterizing all dissenters as dangerous–ironically, the show is back to back with China dissenters and the horrible injustice in China–ok so its perfectly fine for Chinese citizins to dissent but when Americans have passion about our own inhumane government we are dubbed dangerous–isn’t this hypocritical.  Especially when you consider the bulk of commentoers in the audience on Onpoint–thick…and easily conditioned to believe such BS.    So how long before criticizing the governemnt becomes a “sign” of danger that requires the mob to incarcerate.  American society always reminds me of Lord of the Flies.

  • debhulbh

    Sound like someone has just been delivered a nugget of truth but is afraid to face it. A life unexamined…is indeed a shame.

  • himble

    Debhulbh needs to learn that even people with overheated opinions  are sometimes dead right.  One caller who sounded as if he was of Middle Eastern origins basically said America kills lots of people, so do Israelis (who presumably kill some of them with US funded weapons), so why are you surprised when the result comes to your home?  And the answer of Prof. Greenberg was basically “Well he’s got a point and it has to do with the kind of world we create and how we raise our children.”  Utter rubbish.

    Please let’s try to get a few things straight.  First, whether it is the use of drones or fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, or the Israelis dealing with Gaza (where it is well established that militants purposely fire rockets or mortars from heavily populated areas), neither our forces nor the Israelis target innocent civilians.  Some innocents are killed and every one of those deaths is deeply regrettable.  But our servicemen and those of every other civilized nation are prosecuted when they intentionally kill civilians.  That is what will happen to the younger Tsarnaev – and the issue raised by the caller is utterly bogus.  You may or may not like the politics of the US or any other country.  That’s your right.  But what those boys did was intentionally murder and maim as many people as they could.  And there is no possible rational justification for it.  The proper translation of one of the 10 commandments is “Thou shall not murder” – that’s what they did.

    As to the utopian Prof. Greenberg, yes I wish we lived in a perfect world and yes it does have to do, in a sense, with how e raise out children.  But children are raised one by one – and we hope to teach them right from wrong, and to control their urges to violence and mayhem.  Even some of the best parents fail – and probably always will.  But don’t blame gun control, or the world for these events.  Our governments don’t make us.  Our parents and we do.  And when we do things like this we should be punished – not rationalized.

  • Gregg Smith

    I wonder if Dzhokhar will be charged with the murder of his brother?

    • brettearle

      First, if he did it in panic, to escape, it wouldn’t be murder.

      It would likely be manslaughter–but only if he knew that his brother was lying there.

      I suppose it could become involuntary manslaughter, if he didn’t know, or see, that his brother was on the ground, in the way of his escape route.

      Secondly, I am under the impression that Tamerlan Tsarnaev had already been shot dead, before he was allegedly run over. 

      • Gregg Smith

        As I understand it he was not dead and in the process of being handcuffed. The cops dove out of the way and the car drug him 30 feet, killing him.

        • brettearle

           Now that you mention it, I did hear the `being dragged’ part.

          The fact that the deceased was being handcuffed, at the time–if what you say comes from what turns out to be a verifiable report–is quite intriguing, in terms of Dzhokhar’s actions.

          After all, he has fingered his older brother supposedly, as being the `mastermind’.

          Still, the death–if it’s connected to the run-over–almost certainly, cannot be considered premeditated. 

          • Gregg Smith

            What if there was a suicide pact? It’s just an interesting angle, that’s all.

        • brettearle

          PBS just reminded me that it has been widely reported that the suspect died in a shootout, as I had first thought.

          I’m curious about what your news source(s) were…. 

          • Gregg Smith

            I apologize but I can’t remember where I read it. I’ll see if I can find it.

  • Gregg Smith
    • nj_v2

      That’s quite a bunch of steaming crap—gross generalizations, misrepresentations, outright lies, ignorance. No wonder Greggg likes it.  Greggg and Fox so-called news; a match made in heaven. 

      • Gregg Smith

        That was a deep probing analysis. You nailed every issue raised…. NOT!

  • Ray in VT

    One of the very unfortunate side effects of attacks or crises such as this is that this sort of talk starts to get raised (from Fox & Friends today):

    JOHNSON: Do you believe in indefinite detention of Americans?
    Because I don’t. I don’t believe we should detain – No matter
    how
    loathsome, disgusting, vile, contemptible.

    KILMEADE: Two different issues.

    JOHNSON: No, it’s the same issue, an American issue. No, no,
    no. Either we believe in the Constitution or we don’t believe in the
    Constitution.

    KILMEADE: Not everyone is worthy of the constitutional rights that we have.

    • jefe68

      Kilmeade should be asked who makes that decision?
      This is a slippery slope, that’s for sure.

      Kilmeade is the face of extreme right wing ideology, that’s clear in this exchange.

      • Gregg Smith
        • 1Brett1

          The Boston bombing suspect is an American citizen; and, besides that, NO link to a larger organization that is “at war” with the US, i.e., al Qaeda, has been established.

          Therefore, he is NOT an enemy combatant. End of story (unless or until he can be linked to a larger, organized terrorist organization, which there hasn’t been any evidence of that, so far).

          Haymaking and drum beating don’t change those facts.

          • Gregg Smith

            I never understand how these things drift off topic. I’m not sure what you think I’m saying.

            We don’t yet know if there is a link, enemy combatant status allows better tools to find out. But the reason he isn’t an enemy combatant is because he has been mirandized and charged criminally. That’s the end of the story not your speculation that he was not linked to terrorist. But again, that’s now settled and I have not taken a position one way or another but you seem to think I have.

            Now to the actual topic I responded to in the thread, Ray gave a completely out of context couple of lines. That’s cool. Jeffe dumped on Kilmeade, cool too but whats the beef? There are two quotes from Kilmeade. The first one (“two different issues’) is meaningless without the context unless you mind read. What preceded Johnson’s question? There was not two issues in the question. It looks like Johnson (Peter?) pivoted from something else to ask the question and Kilmeade pointed out he was talking about a different issue. It’s impossible to know with just the short excerpt. I don’t know if Ray saw it or read it on Media Matters or somewhere similar.

            The second Kilmeade quote is accurate. Bin Laden was but one example. Newt spoke to the issue and I posted it. 

          • 1Brett1

            “enemy combatant status allows better tools to find out.”
            How so?

            “…the reason he isn’t an enemy combatant is because he has been mirandized and charged criminally.”

            Well, yes, he has now been Mirandized and charged criminally; this is true, but that’s not why he is NOT an “enemy combatant.” He is not for two reasons: 1) he is a US citizen, and 2) he is not affiliated with a larger organization that is warring with the US. That was my point. 

          • Gregg Smith

            Because he has no right to remain silent as an enemy combatant.

            Reason 1) true and that’s my biggest problem with the status. But remember we killed an American citizen with a drone. No trial, no judge, no habeas corpus, no nothing so obviously an American can be charged as an enemy combatant. Wasn’t Bradley Manning charged as such? I’m thinking of someone else as well from quite a while back, a kid who went overseas and radicalized, I can’t remember.

            Reason 2) I’m sorry, it’s wild speculation to say that with the certainty you did this time. The first time you said, “has been established”. That was more accurate but there are several reasons to suspect there were ties. 

          • 1Brett1

            Sorry, I should have qualified it the second time but I got a phone call as I was typing. 

            I don’t see the need to coerce information, if that is what you are suggesting?

          • Gregg Smith

            Not to split hairs but the discussion is rhetorical. I’m not really suggesting anything.

            But yea, if the indications are there actually is a cell or if he has terrorist ties or has information about future attacks then timely intel is crucial. I don’t know if any of that is the case.

          • 1Brett1

            I thought theyhad delayed MIrandizinghim to get info beforereminding if his rights. My guess is that theyhaveenoughevidenceto make charges stickand that theyweren’t worried about self-incrminating statements byhim (whichcould not beusedif he’d beend readhis rights. 

          • brettearle

            Do you know for sure that killing Americans via  drones, for reasons that are attempting to thwart a threat to American security, comes under the same legal definition and jurisdiction, as an Enemy Combatant, who is American–especially an American whose actions took place in this country, and who was still in the country, when he/she was, or would be, arrested?

          • Gregg Smith

            No I’m not sure but I think so.

          • Ray in VT

            You’re thinking of John Walker Lindh

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh

            He was held, I guess, as an enemy combatant in Afghanistan, but it looks like he was rather quickly transferred to the U.S. and charged criminally.  Manning, as a member of the armed services, was subject to military justice, and he was charged with a bunch of stuff, including aiding the enemy.

          • Gregg Smith

            Thanks Ray. I was going nuts trying to remember who it was. I was stuck on Joel something. As I recall  he didn’t commit a crime but was caught on the battlefield. There was talk of stripping him of his citizenship. I guess I should look at the link. 

          • Ray in VT

            No probs.  I think that Michael Savage used to call him Rat Boy or something.

          • Ray in VT

            They were talking initially about the Boston bombings, and Peter Johnson certainly was speaking about how to treat Americans under the law.  If Kilmeade was not, then he did not make that clear when Johnson made it clear that he was.  I think that it is justifiable to dump on Brian Kilmeade, and this is only the most recent example.  Here’s the next chunk of dialogue:

            JOHNSON: Senator Graham is an expert on military commission and on the law of war.

            KILMEADE: Yes.

            JOHNSON: But what he’s saying is, let’s suspend civil rights and constitutional law.

            KILMEADE: For public safety. 

            JOHNSON: In this particular case and then later we’ll reinstate it.

            I think that that is treading further down a dangerous path.  I don’t know much of anything about Peter Johnson (except that he sort of looks like Teller), but I like what he had to say there, and I did not like what I from Brian Kilmeade.  I know of too many abuses historically that have occurred due to such thinking.

          • Gregg Smith

            I think it’s a dangerous path too. Peter Johnson is a lawyer and Democrat. If you ask me, from what you’ve posted, it was good TV. Both sides presented forcefully.

          • brettearle

            There apparently is a difference of opinion, in the legal community, as to whether Tsarnaev–as a US citizen– could be tried as an Enemy Combatant….even if he could be directly linked to a subversive group, committed to perpetrating violence against the United States and its citizens.

          • Gregg Smith

            As I understand it he could be charged as an enemy combatant and still be tried in criminal court. But it’s a moot point now.

          • 1Brett1

            I’ve heard that too, but as you say it is a moot point.

        • Ray in VT

          So, to be clear, the President can order the killing of American citizens without trial?  That is certainly what was done with Awlaki , although that was done in another country in what can probably be best described as a war zone.  What about here in the U.S.?  Does Newt apply the same standard, or would you?  Certainly I have seen far more criticism of this sort of action from those here on the left than from the right, and I am highly uncomfortable with such talk.  Operating overseas in a war zone where we can’t really apprehend them, well that’s one thing, but here, when they have been captured by law enforcement is, I think, an entirely different ball of wax.

          • Gregg Smith

            That’s a very good question and point. Rand Paul had to do an old school filibuster to force the issue and now he’s saying a drone would have been fine to target Tsarnaev. Exactly where the line is in unclear. These are perilous times.

            My comment was regarding Kilmeade’s claim: “Not everyone is worthy of the constitutional rights that we have.” That is certainly true as Newt made clear.

          • Ray in VT

            Paul also said that he shouldn’t be tried as an enemy combatant due to the protections and liberties enshrined and guaranteed by citizens via the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  He seems to have some contradictory positions there.

            I think that historically non citizens have not had the full legal protections of citizens, so not everyone here in the U.S. has, I think, had those full protections, and it could certainly be said that historically many rights have been denied to citizens at one time or another, but all citizens are worthy of the full range of constitutional rights.  The Constitution does provide limited situations in which the writ of habeas corpus can be suspended, but I would not call this instance one of those times.

            Newt certainly made his opinion clear, and the administration has legal papers supporting their justification for situations such as the Al Awlaki strike, however, that is, I think, something very different from pursuing a suspect domestically, where apprehension and trial should be the norm, although lethal force can be used by law enforcement.

      • Ray in VT

        Peter Johnson sort of alludes to that, at least in the sense of he says who should not be making decisions regarding how one should or should not be charged.   The full exchange is interesting.  The sort of talk in which Kilmeade engages, especially considering that they were talking about this specific case regarding the treatment of a citizen apprehended on U.S. soil, bothers me greatly.  My undergrad thesis was on civil rights abuses from 1917-1923, and some pretty heinous things were done in the name of public safety.

        • jefe68

          As they were in the 50′s with McCarthyism. 

          • Ray in VT

            Exactly.  A lot of people who had done nothing wrong had their lives ruined by McCarthy and his goons.  Mostly they looked at people who had either connections to radical politics that were relatively casual, or people who had already been checked out and cleared during Truman’s loyalty program from the late 1940s.  It was a pretty horrible episode in American history.

    • brettearle

      Ray–

      Today, in Boston, on a local NPR radio talk program, a woman called in to say that she was photographed, with a camera, in two businesses, as she entered as a customer:

      One was a dentist office.

      The other was high-end toy store.

      Both of these incidents, she claims, occurred, during the week, AFTER the Marathon.

      She did NOT sound psychotic, over the phone.

      I could tell you of a couple of bizarre incidents, that happened to me, right after 9/11….

      • Ray in VT

        Did she say that she thought that it was based upon her appearance?  How about your experiences after 9/11.  Asif Manvi joked last night on The Daily Show that seeing as how the bombers were be definition Caucasian, at least jerks weren’t going to be yelling stuff at him on the street.

        • brettearle

          I’ll get to them–hopefully, later tonight.  

  • myblusky

    Men commit approximately 90% of homicides and almost all mass killings
    with a very few exceptions. Why is it men – usually young men – are so
    prone to violence? Plenty of people are disparaged in the world and they
    don’t resort to murder. Why is it certain people do?

    There is no
    way to right all the wrongs of societies and countries because often
    times “right and wrong” are a matter of perception. There have been men
    who walk into a company and shot up the place because they thought they
    were “wronged” even though they were fired for being bad employees.
    These people had no particular religion or affiliations.

    What
    needs to be remedied is figuring out why certain men are more prone to
    violence and how to prevent that from happening in the first place. Yes – it will take a lot of effort, research, and money to do that, but prisons are costly too.

    Is it genetic? Environment?

    And
    before you call me sexist – men are more often the victims of homicide
    so resolving this problem will not only benefit all people, it will
    especially benefit men.

    • ExcellentNews

      You are absolutely right, and there is a biological basis for that observation. You might want to read “The Blank Slate” by Steve Pinker (a Harvard behavioral biologist IIRC…). There are quite a few other books recently published that look at these questions from a scientific, non-ideological viewpoint.

      This book will not provide answers to the societal questions you ask, but it will provide you with a solid factual foundation that should underpin the search for answers.

      • myblusky

        Thank you for the book suggestion. I looked up Steve Pinker and found a TED talk with him which I’m going to listen to as well.

    • brettearle

      The male gender is generally regarded as being born, more often, with aggressive insitincts.

      Women, have these impulses, too, of course–but there is a genetically identifiable difference that makes men more prone to aggression, and, therefore, more predisposed to violence.

      Everything else–that make men more likely to commit violence–are the result of many environmental and cultural factors.

      You would know this as well as I, or anyone else.

      Can we see it any other way?

      If so, please tell me how.

      Men are the ones who start wars, go to war, and commit genocide.

      Practitioners in the psychological sciences will tell you that it is quite difficult to predict violence.

      [Although I suspect that some of these professionals say this to protect themselves from liability.]

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      I don’t think these reductive “root cause” or meta-question ponderings are that fruitful. Human nature is what it is. It is much more worthwhile to discuss the particulars of each case. What can we do about radical Islamic militants? Security versus privacy. Gun control laws. Measures to prevent spousal abuse. Workplace satisfaction measures. Prison rehabilitation versus punishment. The devil is in the details.

      There is already 2000 years of literature on meta-questions written by religious figures, philosophers, ethicists, psychoanalysts, sociologists, cognitive scientists, Marxists, cultural theorists, existentialists, modernists, post-modernists, humanists, post-humanists. It is endless. 

      Yes, kids should be raised well and ethically. Yes, citizens should be engaged and law abiding. We know that already. 

      The nurture problem can’t be fixed. Crazy people will continue to have kids and raise them abusively. You cannot outlaw neurotic people having kids. The nature problem has no technological solution. There is no genetic modification procedure developed that would make humans less violent.

      We have two men, motivated by radical political and religious thinking, who attacked Boston. Stepping back from the particulars to ask big philosophical questions (What is human violence?), seems less useful than asking: What are we going to do – right now, today – about terrorism? 

    • hennorama

      myblusky – a point of clarification, which might be viewed as “splitting hairs”:

      It’s more accurate to write “[In the United States, when the sex of the offender is known, we find that] Men commit approximately 90% of homicides and almost all mass killings with a very few exceptions.”

      I point this out due to the fact that FBI data for 2011 shows, for 27 percent of known homicides, the sex of the offender is unknown.

      See:http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3

      As you wrote, men are more often the victims of homicide.  In fact, one could say males are FAR MORE often the victims of homicides than are females. According to the 2011 United Nations Office on Drugs
      and Crime’s Global Study On Homicide, in the Americas, about 90% of homicide victims were male. Globally, about 82% of homicide victims were male, per the same source.

      This same study indicates the following about offenders (again, where the sex of the offender is known):

      “Data on suspected homicide offenders are only available for [a] few countries but several important patterns clearly emerge. Firstly, as is the case for homicide victims, most perpetrators of homicide are male. In the majority of countries, men make up over 80 per cent of homicide offenders and there is a clear link between the sex structure of homicide offenders and the overall homicide rate. Generally, the higher the homicide rate, the higher the share of men among the suspected offenders. Conversely, the lower the homicide rate, the higher the share of female homicide suspects, though females never make up the majority of homicide offenders.”

      See:http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Globa_study_on_homicide_2011_web.pdf (page 70)

      I highly recommend the UNODC’s Global Study On Homicide for those who want to learn more about homicide around the world.

  • 1Brett1

    Anything that has happened in the world over the past week seems to be prefaced in the media by something along the lines of, “it doesn’t yet appear this is related to the Boston bombings…” or, “we don’t yet know if this is related to the Boston bombings…”

    It sort of looks like this is at least in part becoming a device to create some link to the bombing story, as that is a prominent story in the news/peoples’ minds. It seems a way for news outlets to piggyback on larger stories or an enhancement to “sell” the smaller/probably unrelated story…

    There was a fire in a local restaurant this morning near my house…it is not yet known if there is any connection to the Boston bombings…

  • Gregg Smith

    They released the Ricin guy. I can’t imagine they would do that if he was guilty. That would mean we don’t know who did it. He claims he was framed.

  • Roy Merritt

    I don’t really think that religion was the driving force behind Tamerlan’s embrace of violence.  He may well have used it as a cover for the bitterness and failure he was experiencing here in America.  His uncle Ruslan said it succinctly “he was a loser” and his resentment at being a loser when all around one is inundated with these stories of the successful immigrant.  It is part of the American ethos and mythology  and Tamerlan couldn’t hack it.  And worse of all he could see that his younger brother Dzhokhar was on his way to succeeding.  He had American friends, smoked reefer with his chums, had an affection for rap music and said to be by those who have come forth saying they knew him that he was a polite and likable kid.  You can therefore imagine the dynamics between these siblings and a younger child’s never ending quest to get the approval of the other.  I’m certain that Tamerlan manipulated his younger brother into the destruction of any future he may have had.  It doesn’t excuse the young man but the tale is all to familiar.  It is a tale straight out of Shakespeare.  

    • brettearle

      But the roots of Tamerlan’s disaffection might be similar to many disenfranchised men–in the Middle East and Central Asia, et al–who lead desperate Lives.

      And, eventually, this frustration and resentment, finds a political outlet–via radicalized Extremist Groups–by eventually scapegoating the big bad Super Power.

      So while you can accurately, perhaps, portray the burgeoning reasons for such terrorism, in Boston, my guess is that–in a different culture and environment–you are seeing:

      the same kind of negative feelings and reactions being played out, in lives of young men in the Middle East and in Central Asia.

      The meme of American hatred is viral, in certain places, around the Globe.

  • Gregg Smith

    I still don’t understand why law enforcement had to elicit the aid of the public to identify the suspects. Tamerlan was on their radar. We were warned by the Russians about him which is rare. We interviewed him. DHS knew when he went to Dagestan but evidently didn’t know when he came back. They knew he went to a notoriously radical Mosque six times while he was there. They had a file, they had his photo, he beat his wife.

    I know it’s not politically correct but I think any time mass murder is attempted we should suspect Radical Muslims. Sue me. How many Muslims with an international paper trail suggesting radicalization are in the Boston area? Why didn’t they have him on their radar and know immediately upon seeing his image who he was? Has PC gotten so out of control they didn’t think to check?

    • brettearle

      Gregg–

      FBI legal protocol is more restrictive than you think.

      Check credible information sources on this matter.

      You will find that in 2011, the FBI had NO credible evidence that would legally warrant further scrutiny.

      After Tamerlan returned from Eastern Europe, the Russians did not respond to further inquiries from the FBI.

      There was still no activity that got close to probable cause.

      It may very well be that Tamerlan was not in a photographic database, because of these restrictions.

      If you have a problem with this–and I may, at this point, have a problem myself–then you will, first, need to go back to the Bush administration.

      Why, after 9/11, didn’t the FBI legal protocol become LESS RESTRICTIVE?

  • Gregg Smith

    They were on welfare. We funded terrorism. Terrific.

    • brettearle

      Yeah, Liberal Ideology is going to take a Big Hit, for that, in the Right Wing Press.

      But I am not at all sure that it will be justified:

      The House is Republican. 

      Bush II was a Republican.

      Clinton–much to the chagrin of the Progressives–transformed Welfare as we knew it.

      • Gregg Smith

        It’s separate from all that which may or may not be fair. I think most reasonable people support a safety net.

        If we are going to grant citizenship to human debris like these two, turn a blind eye to warnings, loose him in the shuffle and then suffer an attack like this then that’s one thing. But must we pay for it?

        • brettearle

          Gregg–

          You can’t predict which men and women on entitlements are going to commit what sort of crimes.

          And you know it.

          If you have a problem with the failure of the prevention of Terrorism (or with my comment, below, about the FBI), then take up the issue with the Congressional Committee that oversees the legal jurisdiction of the FBI.

          Don’t go after a much softer, easier target–which is the wrong target to begin with.

          • Gregg Smith

            As I said, I think most reasonable people support a safety net. That includes me. These guys were bad bad men, I did not say they couldn’t have done it without welfare. It’s not a criticism of the FBI or legal jurist diction. My point for bringing it up was that it’s just one more chance to slam Obama for his dramatically expanded welfare state. You know how I am.

            They sure didn’t afford the cars they drove and the clothes they wore because of welfare. How much is a round trip ticket to Grozny? They shouldn’t have been on it in the first place but I’m more concerned with where their money did come from.

          • brettearle

            Do you think that this guy, Mishnah?–the alleged Islamic guru who may have helped to radicalize Tamerlan in Cambridge–may lead us to the money.

            Your point, I presume, is that you think there’s a fair chance that an organized Islamic Radicalized Cult is behind the money–and that this organized group is either in Boston, somewhere else in the country, or else abroad.

            That remains to be seen.

            There is no evidence of that as yet–and there may never be any.

            I will assume that you will not think that such evidence will be covered up by Federal Authorities.

          • Gregg Smith

            That’s a good question, I don’t know. I was thinking is was the armed and dangerous 212 3B classified Saudi. We need to find out.

          • hennorama

            Gregg “I don’t know and I don’t care what the dictionary says” Smith – c’mon now – it’s obviously China’s fault.

            Before reading your [expletive deleted] comment, I posted this as a response to brettearle:

            “I was half-expecting the even further extended conclusion – “Boston Bombing Is China’s Fault”

            It’s so obvious. China’s is funding all of Obama’s deficit spending, which is paying for welfare, which the Tsarnaev brothers benefited from while they were younger, and Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s and his family benefited from more recently, and which was clearly the source of the money to buy the bombmaking materials. So really, it’s China’s fault. If they didn’t lend money to the US, none of this would have ever happened.

            Stupid China – what is their problem, anyway? And why are they killing one of their own people?”

        • jefe68

          When these two were granted entry to the US they were children.

          You know what’s messed here, is how you have to twist everything into this narrative that is devoid of substance and seems more or less steeped in a kind tabloid gossip.

    • hennorama

      Gregg “Joe Wilson” Smith – “We funded terrorism.” is a leap in reasoning. Stick to the facts.

      Alternatively, lay out the case for your conclusion, showing exactly how “We funded terrorism.”

      • 1Brett1

        Now, hennorama, I mean what was Wal*Mart™ doing selling pressure cookers to Muslims anyway?! That’s why all Welfare recipients and Muslims should have such info. on their IDs, so when they go to buy a pressure cooker the clerk can ask for ID and prevent them from purchasing such items!!! 

        Perhaps Gregg “I have no motives to my comments” Smith just wants the bomber kid to be given the death sentence, executed, his body deported, epithets yelled at the corpse as it leaves the country, AND his Welfare eligibility revoked! Is all that so much to ask?!

        And, hey, if any Welfare recipients who might commit crimes in the future need to be denied benefits, so be it…they should just get a job if they want to bankroll their crimes!

        • hennorama

          1brett1 – I nearly did a “spit take” of my water while reading your satirical/sardonic/sarcastic comment.

          Well done.

          • 1Brett1

            Fox has been pushing the Welfare story for the last couple of hours…I think it’s based on a Boston Globe story, but I’m not sure about that. It seems to be based on some info. (which, it remains to be seen how accurate the info. is) about the brothers/family getting some benefits when the boys were children, and supposedly the elder brother and his wife got some kind of benefits briefly (although supposedly the benefits stopped over a year ago…but who knows…Fox’s Megan Kelly is, of course, characterizing the whole thing as “the whole family, parents, everybody was living in Section 8 housing [speculation], they got free healthcare [speculation], Foodstamps [speculation], not to mention our country gave the younger brother $2500 for school…”

            I forgot, the caption underneath Megan was something like, “Our tax dollars bankrolled Boston Terrorists.”

            I think she said the father had actually kidnapped the Linbergh baby, but I might have just imagined that last one…

          • hennorama

            1brett1 – The Boston Herald is the source of the reporting, as far as I can tell. It’s echoed across the web, as one would expect, on TheDimness and DullLisa, et al.

            http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/04/tamerlan_tsarnaev_got_mass_welfare_benefits

          • 1Brett1

            Oh, the National Enqui, er, Boston Herald. Thanks. 

      • brettearle

         Henn–

        Let’s assume that Gregg avers a big picture, here:

        I often support specific allocations, for entitlements.

        But can’t we say that our tax dollars fund nuclear arsenals that can help blow up the Earth?

        Or
        that our tax dollars indirectly support corporate welfare–that, in
        turn, sometimes help to bolster practices that abet climate change?  

        Now, I regard his argument as somewhat specious–but I think that the thinking behind my questions, may similar to his point.

        And if it isn’t his point, it seems to be that, that would be the only point that I could see as having veracity, here.

        Obviously, the two brothers could have pulled off the heinous crime, anyway.

        It’s a political straw man.

        • hennorama

          brettearle – TY for your response.

          I was half-expecting the even further extended conclusion – “Boston Bombing Is China’s Fault”

          It’s so obvious. China’s is funding all of Obama’s deficit spending, which is paying for welfare, which the Tsarnaev brothers benefited from while they were younger, and Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his family benefited from more recently, and which was clearly the source of the money to buy the bombmaking materials. So really, it’s China’s fault. If they didn’t lend money to the US, none of this would have ever happened.

          Stupid China – what is their problem, anyway? And why are they killing one of their own people?

          • brettearle

            Actually, the Liberal Press, and the Democratic Caucus in Congress now secretly fund Limbaugh’s show and keep it in syndication–in order to compensate for all the sponsorship he has lost ever since it was discovered that his cigar ashes are used as fertilizer waste in compost heaps–which dual use could either contribute to the greening of the environment or otherwise be used, as ammunition for pipe bombs that the brothers Tsarnaev devised to expand their armamentarium.

            The Liberals thrived on this inherent paradox–while Rush’s Conservative base became totally disaffected.

            A deal was struck whereby Limbaugh was allowed to stay on the air, as long as he continued to pursue his lifestyle and espouse his inanities about how the majority of welfare cheats, in the country, wear Burqaa and scream “Barak is Great”–as soon as they cash their public assistance checks.

            The endgame?

            A Rushdie-like fatwa against El Rushbo….

            “Not The Onion”

            copyright@ BrettEarle 2013

          • 1Brett1

            I knew we needed to blame Liberals for something!! 

            And, hey, just who is paying for the bomber’s hospital stay anyway?!?!?!

          • brettearle

            When all is said and done, the hat-check girl, at the DNC, will be blamed for aiding and abetting…

          • 1Brett1

            Well, can she prove she wasn’t present when the Linbergh baby disappeared? …I’ll bet she’ll use the lame excuse she wasn’t even born yet!

          • brettearle

            Like it.

            Next time, though, add just a touch of MSG.

          • hennorama

            brettearle – now wait just a darn minute here … are you saying the Missouri State Guard, sponsored by the Missouri State Government, has come back into existence, are now armed with Militärisches Scharfschützen Gewehr, at least one of them enjoys the Fairytales of Slavery album from the Miranda Sex Garden, stopped at Moe’s Southwest Grill on their circuitous route to Madison Square Garden, and whose uniforms are the color of Medium Spring Green, are somehow involved with the Marathon Strike Group?

            If so, I was unaware.

            Many Spur-of-the-moment Guffaws, Mr. Seriously Goofy.

          • brettearle

            No, I am not saying that….

            But what I am saying is that,

            It just seems to me that you are threatening my “precious bodily fluids”.

            MSG retains salt.

            “General Turgidson, I will not go down in history as the President who extracted flavor from every Jew’s order of Beef Fried Rice on New Year’s Eve”

            “Well,sir, with all due respects, your popularity with your Jewish constituency is just slightly less important than the country’s ability to go on Welfare…I mean…the welfare of the American people.”

          • hennorama

            Ah .. the ol’ DSOHILTSWALTB reference, eh? Well done, once again.

            BTW – DSOHILTSWALTB anagrams to [Balls Twist – DOH!] and [Wild Blast Shot], among many amusing others.

            In case one is interested, see: http://wordsmith.org/anagram/index.html

        • Ray in VT

          Could we also not say that our tax dollars funded terrorism regarding the Oklahoma City bombing, seeing as how McVeigh spent 3.5 years learning about weapons and explosives in the U.S. Army.

          • brettearle

            Your insight is just that. 

            Good one.

          • Gregg Smith

            The non-christian was paid for his service. The Tsarnaevs, not so much. So no, but you knew that.

          • 1Brett1

            Our government taught McVeigh how to kill; the Tsarnaevs picked it up on their own, but you knew that.

          • Gregg Smith

            I had no idea the military trained soldiers in the use of fertilizer and diesel. Live and learn. I didn’t even know one had to be trained to know how to kill. I just thought evil people did evil things whether they were trained or not. Silly me.

          • 1Brett1

            What? now you are saying you don’t care if the Tsarvaev brothers were trained by al Qaeda? Make up your mind!!!

            “Silly me.”

            On this we can agree…hey, just trying to find common ground.

          • Gregg Smith

            I didn’t say that now did I?

          • Ray in VT

            Thank you for agreeing that McVeigh’s training was funded by the U.S. taxpayer.  Maybe he could or could not have made that bomb without it.  Who knows.  The Tsarnaevs, both as children or as adults, as far as I know, did nothing to illegally obtain benefits that are available to other low income people, and their source of funding is still currently unknown, so to state that they used tax dollars to fund their criminal activities is a bit of a stretch at this point.  It is certainly possible that they used the widow’s income, but maybe they just got hooked up with funding by that bad, bad Muslim student who was arrested, or was a suspect, or wasn’t either of those, nor scheduled for deportation.

            Wikipedia being what it is, one must take it with a grain of sand, but here’s what it had to say about McVeigh:  Raised Catholic, but later described himself as agnostic.  Registered Republican in the 1980s, as well as a member of the NRA, but voted Libertarian for President in 1996.  Hmmm.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bbsheep1 Julie Sikorski

            About them not doing anything illegal to obtain benefits, I have lived in MA for 9 years now since moving from Canada. I was not low income when moving here but this state has a way of bleeding one dry. I had looked into getting benefits once not too long ago. Because I am not a citizen, I was offered food stamps and nothing more. It is actually part of the immigration process that you need a sponser who makes enough money to support you if you do not have the money yourself. An immigrant can not even get government housing. Unfortunately, the necessary paperwork can be falsified easily. I’m not saying that is what they did, I just know that it is not as easy to get benefits as it seems. Don’t judge me that I had to find this out for myself, Life is not easy when you try to be a good person and do the right things.

    • 1Brett1

      Assuming they were on Welfare (to respect your wishes that I should accept your comments at face value like you desire): YEAH! Damn right! They should have just robbed people to get the 100 bucks or so for bomb-making materials/weapons like other criminals do! Or maybe they should have just sold crack to fund their efforts!

      [sarcasm]

    • hennorama

      Boston Bombing Bush’s Boner:

      Tsarnaev family first entered the United States in 2002.

      Bush II was President in 2002 when Tsarnaev family first entered US.

      Bush owns Boston Bombing.

      Blame Bush.

      Bingo.

      • 1Brett1

        What?!?! And so close after 9-11 TOO!?!?!?!
        :-)

      • brettearle

        Bombastic Boast By Baleful Basher:

        Boozer Bush Busy Between Baghdad and Basra.

        Back Then, Brothers Barely Broke From Bib and Berth.

    • jefe68

      You should at least try to get your facts in order instead of posting like some wifey gossiping to a neighbor over the backyard fence.

      The older brother and his wife allegedly were on some kind of assistance up to 2012 according to ABC news.
      Both brothers had previously received government benefits when they came with their parents to the U.S.  and received transitional assistance money, the HHS said.

      It’s interesting how the the Boston Herald, the more conservative tabloid rag, differs in the story from the Globe.

      http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/04/23/tsarnaev-brothers-appeared-have-scant-finances/ZbNBuN2Gcz8IOFddKDIU0N/story.html

      • 1Brett1

        I guess the earlier necon propagandist tripe of, “they are rich…living in mansions, traveling around the world, driving a Mercedes Benz…” didn’t quite work out for them, so now they are trying to make hay out of this and turn it into, “our tax dollars paid for their terrorist activities!”  

        • jefe68

          It’s all Obama’s fault…

          • hennorama

            Next we’ll hear “Boston Terrorists Had Obamaphones!”

          • Ray in VT

            Uh, of course they did.  Didn’t you hear?  It was pretty big news in my circle this week:

            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/04/24/yet-another-study-shows-low-iq-and-right-wing-ideology-go-hand-in-hand/

          • hennorama

            Ray in VT – TY for your response.

            A portion of the linked article said “Another interesting study (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/millennial-media/201304/do-racism-conservatism-and-low-iq-go-hand-in-hand) has shown a correlation between American symbols or cues – such as the flag or the word, “patriot” – and increased aggression in judging other people. These cues also increased the subject’s tendency to fall back onto war imagery and language. This occurred regardless of political affiliation or other factors. So when Fox News (or any other network) precedes a story with one of these cues, it tends to increase their viewer’s aggression towards who or whatever the subject of the report may be.”

            This brought to mind an exchange you and I had about six months ago. In the last part of my response I discussed the use of color in media, and on cable TV “news” programs in particular:

            [The contrast between the Fox News shows and the MSNBC shows is striking.

            Visually, Fox News is dark and foreboding, using lots of red, (which stimulates anger and hostility), and black (to project power and authority, and symbolizing evil, according to some). The combination tends to make one anxious. They constantly have yellow NEWS ALERT popups, even in the absence of actual news. Yellow is an attention grabber, and tends to speed metabolism. Fox also uses the scrolling "ticker" at the bottom of their sceens. Their screen borders are usually black and red
            .
            All in all, this tends to leave one anxious, excited, and angry.

            MSNBC is the opposite. Their sets tend to use lighter and brighter colors, such as blue and white. Blue is thought of as tranquil and calming. White is perceived to be neutral and innocent. They don't use the scrolling "ticker" at the bottom of their screens, and their screen borders tend to be blue and white.

            This tends to leave one calm and perhaps thoughtful as well.

            They're both manipulating you, simply by their choices and uses of color. Check it out the next time you watch either network. Watch one for a bit, note how you feel, then switch to the other. I find it quite jarring, especially when going from MSNBC to Fox.

            I'd cite the research on the psychology of colors, but it's quite easily found and I'm feeling lazy just now.]

            See:http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/11/01/college-newspapers#comment-698378302

            Thanks again for your reply.

          • Gregg Smith

            Dumb dumb dumb.

          • Ray in VT

            I think that they were set up because they were white, just like Rush said about the ricin suspect.

          • Gregg Smith

            They were huge Obama fans, maybe the phone swayed them.

          • 1Brett1

            Why wouldn’t they like Obama, he’s a Muslim too, right?

          • Gregg Smith

            No he’s a black liberation Theologist. Where do you get this stuff?

          • 1Brett1

            Oh yeah, no neocon has ever accused Obama of being a Muslim…where would I possibly get that. Dude the quicker you remember I’m poking fun at neocons the less stress my comments will cause you.

        • Gregg Smith

          Well, I never said they lived in mansions now did I. And it wasn’t me who said the elder went to Dagestan, it was the FBI. But you’re right about the Mercedes.

          They didn’t deserve to be US citizens, much less on the government dole. 

          • 1Brett1

            I didn’t say you did, now did I? Some of your species was saying so…This isn’t about you (well, maybe about how you mouth practically every neocon talking point dished out every day). I can tell what you’re going to say each day by watching Fox for five minutes everyday; it’s quite funny, er, a coincidence.

          • Gregg Smith

            I haven’t watched TV in a week.  

          • 1Brett1

            Well, Fox just echoes talking points from the other neocon stuff, and you do look at those. But, hey, I’m not here to convince you of anything; that part is hopeless.

          • 1Brett1

            Maybe that’s why you are spouting crap from last week?

          • Gregg Smith

            You put it in quotes, who did say it?

      • Gregg Smith

        Yea, they were on welfare. Like I said.

        • 1Brett1

          Where did you read that?

    • 1Brett1

      Stillhere: “you had me at, ‘they were on welfare!’”

  • brettearle

    Deleted

  • 1Brett1

    If pressure cooker bombs are outlawed, only outlaws will have pressure cooker bombs!

    • brettearle

      Good one!

  • hennorama

    “Succinctly Curt Supreme Court Spurns Culpability”

    Washington, DC
    April 24, 2013 4:19 EST

    During a break in today’s arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court, a member of the audience shouted a question to the Court. “Are you going to claim your responsibility for the Boston Bombing? You made Bush President, and they came here on his watch. You’re ultimately responsible, aren’t you?” shouted the unidentified person.

    Startled by the outburst, Justice Clarence Thomas spoke for only the second time in more than seven years. Ironically, Justice Thomas spoke exactly as much as the suspected Boston Bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, did during his initial court appearance from his hospital bed on
    Monday.

    “No” said Thomas.

    Security quickly grabbed the anonymous questioner, to the astonishment of all present.

    The words “Don’t tase me bro” were heard by one bystander, according to unnamed sources.

    http://www.boston.com/yourtown/specials/bedside_transcript_dzhokhar_tsarnaev/

  • hennorama

    “Bush
    Boos Broadcaster”

    DALLAS—As
    former President George W. Bush prepares to officially open his
    presidential library on Thursday, a question arises as it has for
    President Barack H. Obama: How does he explain his role in the Boston
    Bombers?

    Former
    President Bush replied “Boston Bombers? Where do you people come
    up with these questions? I mean, heh heh, everbody knows it’s the
    BRONX Bombers – you know, the Yankees. Boston has the Red Sox.
    Seriously what the heck is wrong with you people?”

    Bush
    then added, “Heh heh heh, I hit that sucker right outta the park!
    You know, I once said ‘Normally they boo politicians at baseball
    parks, that kind of goes with the territory.’ Well I’m just gonna
    turn that sucker around here right now – BOOOOO, reporterlady,
    BOOOO! Heck of a job! Heck of a job!“

    When
    informed of the events that took place last week in Boston, Bush
    quoted Texas Governor Rick Perry. “Oops,” said Bush. “Hey y’all
    come back tomorrow now. I’m gonna come visit my books. ‘The Pet Goat’
    is my favorite. Sure hope they put that one in there, heh heh heh.”

    As
    he was leaving, Bush turned back to startled reporters and said
    “Shoot I almost forgot. War On Terrr, War On Terrr, War On Terrr.
    Be sure to tell everbody I said that, OK? Don’t forget now. Bye.”

    • brettearle

      B+

      Maybe an A-

      Too busy to elaborate.

      • hennorama

        B+ ?! Bogus Bummer! brettearle Bright-line Biased! Broaden Blurry Brain, Boob.

        • brettearle

          Bit of Breitbart Beneath Brettearle’s Bosom…

          …….Buddies with Breitbart?…. 

          • hennorama

            Butofcourse

  • Gregg Smith

    Man, I started replying to some of these post but they went on and on mindlessly. A few by one more nuanced lefty commenter were actually pertinent but most are just prattling and I get the impression it was for my benefit. I don’t get you guys. Do you have a purpose, I know I do. Truth and honest debate.

    • 1Brett1

      Yeah, to make fun of your absurd “truth and honest debate.” How many times do you have to be told that?

      • Gregg Smith

        It’s not about me, get me out of your head.

        • 1Brett1

          You must think it IS about you and not about making fun of neocons, for which you are a non-committal member. 

  • Gregg Smith

    With all the signs and so many of them missed I’m now wondering if they rebuilt Jamie’s wall.

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