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Battle Of The Ballot Box

Voter ID.  We’ll look at the great battle of 2012 over who will have access to the ballot box.

In this June 19, 2012 file photo, Mississippi Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann holds a postcard to help identify voters in need of a free state government issued card that will be issued through his office at no charge, in Jackson, Miss. More than two dozen states have some form of ID requirement, and 11 of those passed new rules over the past two years largely at the urging of Republicans who say they want to prevent fraud. (AP)

In this June 19, 2012 file photo, Mississippi Secretary of State Delbert Hosemann holds a postcard to help identify voters in need of a free state government issued card that will be issued through his office at no charge, in Jackson, Miss. More than two dozen states have some form of ID requirement, and 11 of those passed new rules over the past two years largely at the urging of Republicans who say they want to prevent fraud. (AP)

We’re in October.  A month and change to Election Day.  First presidential debate, this week in Denver.  But the battle over the shape of the electorate has been raging for months and years.  Republicans, pushing voter ID laws and more in state after state.  Steps that make it harder to vote.  For clean elections, they say.

Democrats fighting tooth and nail, in courts and on the ground, for access they say.  It’s an odd issue to be so hot.  American elections look pretty clean.  But it’s big.  Potentially decisive.

This hour, On Point:  the great battle of 2012 over who will get to the ballot box.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

James Hohmann, national political reporter for Politico.

Justin Levitt, associate professor of law at Loyola Law School.

Michael Bekesha, staff attorney for Judicial Watch.

Daniel Smith, political science professor at the University of Florida.

From Tom’s Reading List

L.A. Times “The Republican National Committee has abruptly cut ties to a consulting firm hired for get-out-the-vote efforts in seven presidential election swing states after Florida prosecutors launched an investigation into possible fraud in voter registration forms.”

Election Law Blog “The piece is primarily about the impact of voter fraud. There are pieces with which I agree. But there are also some disturbingly familiar slips. I’ve prepared a thorough annotation, noting that which is correct, that which is correct but misleading or irrelevant, and that which is simply false. More, after the jump.”

The New York Times “This is how voter intimidation worked in 1966: White teenagers in Americus, Ga., harassed black citizens in line to vote, and the police refused to intervene. Black plantation workers in Mississippi had to vote in plantation stores, overseen by their bosses. Black voters in Choctaw County, Ala., had to hand their ballots directly to white election officials for inspection.”

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  • Ray in VT

    Will there be any discussion today regarding if/how any of the voting measures that have passed over the past several years would seek to prevent the sort of abuses that have been recently revealed to have been practiced by a firm in several swing states?

  • Gregg Smith

    If it were up to me I would eliminate early voting except for absentee ballots. Requiring ID is a no brainer. And I certainly would not dismiss cases of clear voter intimidation based on race.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Who thought that voting 6 weeks early was a good idea?  Who pushed these changes in many states?  Before the debates?

      It seems to me that early voting is much harder to monitor by poll watchers.

      • jefe68

        Funny how you’re all for the Military having this right and not ordinary citizens.    

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           You don’t consider the deployed military require ‘special circumstances’?

          I do.  Also, there should be accommodations for absentee ballots for those that truly cannot make it to the poll.

          • jefe68

            That’s not what I said.
            You said that early voting should be abolished. Then you go on to want give the military special treatment, just because they are in the military.
            Well most of the people in the military are not in Afghanistan or in Iraq. They are here in the US or on other bases.

            You can’t have voting better designed for the military and not for the citizens. It’s that simple.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Making voting better for the military than the citizens always reminds me of “Starship Troopers”.

            Funny that some folks would consider that a How-to manual, rather than a warning. Funnier still that these are the side which is full of chickenhawks.

        • Prairie_W

           I’m sure I’m not alone in having worked in an area where people are so job-laden — particularly people with small children and multiple jobs — that finding time on a particular day and between particular hours to vote is virtually impossible. 

          Early voting is as reliable and easy to monitor as voting on the day itself. Voting should be no more difficult than any other “errand” you have to do.

          I’m kind of appalled by those who seem to want voting to look like the 19th century again.  White men who can afford to take time off from work on a work day — and that’s it.  Because after all, what are the rest of us (women, blacks, citizens who weren’t born here and still talk funny and have weird names…) but people who shouldn’t intrude in a process reserved for “real” Americans.

          Let’s not forget the revelations of the past several days:  the Republican party hiring, over the past decade or so, a consulting firm to destroy Democratic voters’ registrations. 

          http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2009/08/07/55143/sproul-coal-fraud/

      • Ray in VT

        So is early voting yet another liberal attempt to steal elections?  Seriously, what do conservatives have against early voting?  Why could it be that they want to make it harder for people to vote?  Maybe they see it in their party’s best interests to keep people away from the booths.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           I didn’t paint this as a conservative vs. liberal issue.

          How is it a burden for folks to go to the poll that is open from 7am to 8pm?

          I don’t see this as voter suppression.  The few that have a 12 hour shift or other hardship with the hours request an absentee ballot.  It is simple.

          Again, having early voters makes it much more difficult and onerous for poll watchers — one of our best defenses AGAINST fraud.

          Also, why have voting prior to the debates?

          It really makes no sense unless you are trying to round up the lemming vote or commit fraud.

          • MrNutso

            Most voting occurs from say 1-9 a.m, and 6 to poll closing.  Most people cannot take off work to vote, don’t work near their polling place, have child care issues, you name it. If election day were a national holiday, that might be a different story.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            This is the first I have heard that the voting hours are too restricted.  Perhaps there is an issue IF there are long lines during the peak voting period but that isn’t an ‘hours’ issue necessarily.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            The first you’ve heard? Says more about your media diet than the actual issue.

            “It doesn’t happen to you, so it’s not a problem to anyone.”

          • Ray in VT

            I see such a restriction as an impediment to having one’s voice count in our system.  People have busy lives.  Jobs, kids, etc.  Illnesses pop up, so do car problems.  Weather can be an issue in some places (we got a foot of snow on Halloween back in 1993).

            I don’t agree with either of your latter premises.  Well, you may have something on the first point, although I would stay away from words like lemming.  I wonder what the percentages would be in Texas or Mississippi in favor of Romney if they had early voting.  One is likely to get the people whose minds cannot be changed one way or the other.

            The former head of the Vermont GOP argued against early voting because people might change their minds.  In that case, then people shouldn’t do it.  Wait until you’re sure, but I like to have the choice to go down at a time that best suits me.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            “How is it a burden”?

            I dunno, how many jobs do you got, and how many hours of unpaid leave you prepared to take to vote?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/B4ABBHDXYBXECZBTHQJWOETBPI Kara Gardner

             I am very, very curious. What do you mean by “the lemming vote?” Who are the people you consider lemmings? In your mind, who is “rounding them up”?

            Eagerly awaiting clarification on this issue.

    • jefe68

      Except it’s not up to you, is it. It’s up to the states that mandate these laws. Democracy is a messy busniess.

      • Gregg Smith

        Sadly no, it’s not up to me. We do not have a Democracy (aka “mob rule”).

        • jefe68

          Your comment says it all, you are a real piece of work.

          • Gregg Smith

            Let’s play a game. I’ll start, you pick up where I leave off:

            “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America…

    • Don_B1

      If a specific ID that has requirements that are not available on most government IDs is going to be required, then there must be a way for EVERYONE who is registered to vote to get one.

      Requiring handicapped people to sit in a Motor Vehicle office for six hours to get the “proper” ID as happened in Philadelphia a week or two ago, it ridiculous! Also, the PA “Photo ID” issuer does not have enough blank IDs to create enough IDs for barely 1 in 10 eligible voters currently without “proper” ID.

      • Gregg Smith

        Maybe a Social Security card or a passport would suffice. I also know that here in NC you can get an ID from the State that is not a Driver’s License. It’s used mainly for people who have had their licenses revoked. I can’t be that big of a deal. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Many of the socialist European countries require photo ID to prevent  voting fraud.  It doesn’t cause heartburn over there.

    There is only one party is interested in stopping fraud prevention measures.

    Draw your own conclusion which party thinks fraud is beneficial.

    Hmmm.

    • John_in_Amherst

       Would that be the same party that has hired – repeatedly, through several election cycles – a firm implicated in scores of cases of fraudulent registrations, destroyed registration forms of the opposing party’s voters, etc?  The same party whose Tea Party allies are currently challenging wholesale the registrations of life-long voters in several Ohio districts that went for Obama in 2008?  The GOP seems to do most of the whining about voter fraud, and to provide us with the most glaring examples of it.

    • Yar

      Lets look at the history, Start in the south, where old Dixiecrats are current day Republicans. 
      The Twenty-fourth Amendment
      Start with poll taxes. The Amendment was ratified by the states on January 23, 1964.Congress and the states from conditioning the right to vote in federal elections on payment of a poll tax or other types of tax.The following states have not ratified the amendment:ArizonaArkansasGeorgiaLouisianaMississippiOklahomaSouth CarolinaWyoming

      As for your statement about Europe:
      Do those Socialist European states require voter registration?

      Some countries using automatic registration include:

      Mexico
      Finland
      Germany
      Switzerland
      Sweden

      These countries have achieved nearly universal voter registration.
      Whatever registration system is agreed on must be constitutionalised
      to avoid dispute, litigation and possible violence.
      “Elsewhere, almost two-thirds of democracies employ a system of automatic voter registration.”

      I would gladly accept positive ID requirements with automatic registration.
      Inclusive democracy instead of managed exclusion.

      What do you think, Worried?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Frankly, I’m not sure of the implication of automatic registration and what that means. 

        My recollection is it was much more difficult to register my kid for little league than to register to vote.

      • Don_B1

        With automatic registration (achieved through the Census, which makes annual surveys as well as the decennial survey -?) should provide that Photo ID, as the states have proven themselves incapable of resisting the temptation to manipulate the voting process.

        The current Voting Rights Act of 1965 as extended and amended in 2006 (?) lists the states that have committed egregious violations, with the provision that states that behave themselves can be removed and other states that commit egregious violations can be added.

    • Ray in VT

      I wonder which party was going to benefit from the big voter fraud issue that was revealed last week until their guy got caught with their hand in the cookie jar?  What have they done to combat measures like that?  Was it 86 cases of in person voter fraud that the Bush administration managed to find over 5 or so years?  How does that compare to what Sproul’s group was up to?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        I only saw a brief blurb on this story and the firm had one individual who created the registration problems and he was fired and the GOP immediately fired the firm because they claimed “zero tolerance” for fraud.

        Contrast this to Acorn which was engaged in systematic voter registration fraud for the Democrats.

        Just because it is difficult to ‘prove’ voter fraud under our lax system doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

        Apparently there were more than enough felons illegally voting in MN to swing the election to Al Franken.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          James O’Keefe has tilted whatever sense you have about Acorn.

          I won’t bother explainig that Acorn submitted all the forms, as is the law, and Acorn was lied about, and James O’Keefe is a lying hack.

        • Ray in VT

          Yet they employed this guy, who has a history of allegations against him that are very similar to what Acorn is alleged to have done.  Was Acorn actually convicted in any court other than the court of public opinion, and do you have a good source for your last point?

          • Don_B1

            Acorn was not convicted of anything, they did submit some registration forms that THEY indicated might be in error, but the LAW PROHIBITED them from “fixing” or NOT submitting those forms.

            There were additional problems with some other forms that they missed, but laws like making the registering group turn in the forms within 48 hours would only preclude a group from doing the checking necessary to identify problems.

            The individuals who actually collected the forms from the elegible voters where paid on a per-voter basis, thus giving them an “incentive” to get forms filled out without actually getting the voter to sign them. This is the same excuse Sproul claims as the reason for “his” company’s problem, but he had much more of a problem than Acorn ever did.

      • Don_B1

        Technically what Sproul’s company, working to register Republican voters (and throw away Democratic voters) did was “registration fraud” which is a subset of “voter fraud” but was NOT addressed in any of the ALEC-inspired/written Republican-legislature passed “Voter Fraud” bills.

    • imjust Sayin

       I agree.  Europeans with a better social safety net (sometimes public socialism) have voter ID laws.

      The sad thing is that the American rhetoric right now is being abused to stir up the racist element of the conservative wing of the Republican party.

      Voter fraud and voter exclusion is modest in our country.

      But, the angry racist rhetoric of voter ID is dangerous.

      I used to be a Republican.  But this is the issue that convinced me to walk away.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

     Access to the ballot box?  How about our deployed military?

    The state of VA claims absentee ballot requests are down 92% for military voters.  Military groups want answers from the Pentagon.

  • jefe68

    These voter ID laws are designed to make it harder for the elderly, poor people, black people and students to vote, period.

    Speaking of the military, in some states (Tennessee) you can’t use your Veteran ID card, or Student ID but you can use your gun permit as proof of ID to vote. What?

    And for you right wing folks crying voter fraud, here some news for you to ponder: Suspicions of voter-registration fraud by a firm working for the Republican Party of Florida spread to at least eight counties Friday after apparent irregularities in registration forms emerged earlier this
    week in a single county.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444752504578024903833678698.html

    On the Military absentee ballot problem (right wingers seeing things that are not there.Funny how they do that, a lot.)
    MVPP Executive Director Eric Eversole doesn’t blame politics, but, rather, “a lot of bureaucratic mumbo jumbo.”

    http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/va_military_absentee_ballots_going_awol_in_2012/

    • Gregg Smith

      How do voter ID laws make it harder for blacks to vote? Is it that black are typically felons or too stupid or what? What prejudiced belief do you base your comment on?

      • jefe68

        I’m getting sick and tired of you using race to back up your warped messed up ideological based comebacks, as if they validate your own ideology.
        I see this a lot since Obama was elected, the use of race as a reverse tactic. It’s cynical and the mere fact that you are trying this here and now is a good example of it.

        This is about race, as this show has clearly pointed out. If you don’t see this, well that’s your problem.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          There’s something about Gregggers.

          He’s also on record here as being a non-believer and yet is willing to give away all sorts of my rights to the fundamentalists and US Conference of Catholic Bishops. Not “religious people”, but a distinct group of religious people on one side of the aisle.

          That makes it very believable that he’s a life-long southerner who is not racist, as I believe him, but is so not racist that he can’t see it in the South, from the right wing. (And given Gregg’s age, that’s a hoot and a half.)

          • Gregg Smith

            I never said I was a non-believer. I said I am not a Christian. My view is Catholics should not have their Constitutional right of religious freedom infringed upon. It really has nothing to do with God.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            If I am picking the demographic details correctly, you’re a past-middle-aged, white, lifelong Southerner, non-Christian, who can’t see the difference between everyone’s religious liberty, and allowing the USCCB and the Fundamentalist Protestants to politick and make sure the government doesn’t hurt their feelings?

            You are a party of one.

            Taken at your word, your idea of their “religious liberty” has bloodied your nose repeatedly, and you’re too submissive to know it. Stop giving away my rights in the name of conservatives’ religious liberty.

          • Gregg Smith

            Which right exactly, your right to have your contraception paid for by those who have religious opposition to such? 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            You’re lying about this. Again.

            A religious org competing in the marketplace of schools and hospitals, etc, can’t discriminate about hiring. Therefore they can’t discriminate about insuring.

          • Gregg Smith

            The constitution does not say anything about organizations or church or the like. 

          • LinRP

            I really do believe the Gregg-ster to be a troll. Nothing more, because he adds nothing more, ever. 

        • Gregg Smith

          I can see why you don’t want to answer the very simple question. Looking in the mirror can be uncomfortable.

          • jefe68

            Do you have some kind of comprehension issue?

      • John_in_Amherst

         Duh, Gregg… When a disproportionate number of blacks and Hispanics lack drivers’ licenses or passports, and acquiring those ID’s requires hours of transit time, waiting on long lines, paying fees, missing work, and providing documentation that is often difficult to provide – like birth certificates for citizens not born in hospitals – the net effect of requiring those IDs IS discriminatory.  Step out of your ideological bias for a second and consider what you are saying.

        • Gregg Smith

          Do they lack driver’s licenses (and all other  valid available forms of ID) because of their race? Why?

          • John_in_Amherst

             Fewer poor people tend to own cars.  And a disproportionate number of Blacks and Hispanics are poor.  Or have you not noticed?  Other picture ID’s like passports are harder and more costly to get.  Valid state voter ID’s are often issued as noted above in locations that are harder to access and or require forms of verification that can be difficult for poor to produce. 
            Give it a rest. 

          • Gregg Smith

            John, I sincerely appreciate your response, really. But it does not answer my question unless you assume blacks are poor because they’re black. What about poor Asian-Americans? All you have claimed is that many blacks are poor. That may or may not be but it’s not an inherent condition of their race.

          • John_in_Amherst

             Gregg, I sincerely think you are suffering some sort of reading or comprehension problem.  I DID NOT claim only that Blacks are poor, nor that poverty is an inherent condition. 

          • Gregg Smith

            I never wrote you said only blacks are poor.  What is it about being black that makes you poor? I did not ask how voter ID laws made it harder for the poor to vote. 

          • John_in_Amherst

             again your ability to read is called into question…

          • Steve__T

             Why did you play the race card? You who reply to anything that says anything about blacks is sick.

            The statement included, elderly and students, but you don’t want to talk about them.
            Your later post, as above was as disingenuous and spiteful, as well as racist. You say your not you say you are. Well I believe you finally came out of the closet, you had me fooled for a while, now I know what you really are. With out telling you what you think, but by what you say.

          • Gregg Smith

            I replied to Jefe who wrote: “These voter ID laws are designed to make it harder for the elderly, poor people, black people and students to vote, period.”

            I am happy to make the arguments for voter ID regarding the elderly and students. They (the elderly in particular) have a leg to stand on. The black thing is racism cloaked in compassion the way I see it. It’s sick.

          • jefe68

            No, what’s sick is your constant ranting on this subject to no end. You then do what I see and hear a lot of extremist do, they try to reverse the issue of race. You are so off base on this in relation to African Americans as it pertains to how they have been treated as well as the history in the context to voting.
            What’s amazing here is you seem to think that anytime anyone mentions African Americans in any context you go off on this tangent. Your words and actions speak more volumes than you are even aware of and in that lies the rub.

          • gonkers

            As posted elsewhere the number of poor Hispanics and Blacks in Texas, NOT THE RATE OF POVERTY… the actual number of people is 2.5X higher than for poor whites.

            http://www.laits.utexas.edu/txp_media/html/pov/features/texas_group/slide3.gif

  • Gregg Smith

    What does the Constitution say about election day?

    • Ray in VT

      Article 2, Section 1, Clause 4:

      The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day
      on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same
      throughout the United States.

      Regarding electors, not election day.  The Constitution may not say anything about the day(s) upon which citizens cast their votes.

      • Gregg Smith

        Thanks.

        • Ray in VT

          No probs.

  • DrewInGeorgia

    And there’s Gregg R Worried pounding the Voter ID drum as usual. Absentee ballot, Registration, and Tally Fraud are the real problems but of course they’re not the focus of the ‘enlightened’ among us. Didn’t we have this discussion a couple of months ago?

    • Gregg Smith

      What are the first two words under the headline of this page, o enlightened one?

      • Gregg Smith

        Times up. Answer: “Voter ID”.

        Smarty pants.

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    The radical right have taken divide and conquer to a new level. I don’t think that there a very many folks out there who are not alienated by the Republican embrace of radical so-called ‘Christianity’. Is there any group other than white Christian males that they have not alienated through extremist rhetoric, positions or legislation? Religion and politics don’t mix and the founding fathers knew this and wrote it into the constitution, but that has not stopped Republicans from using religion to help stir up fear, anger and distrust in the electorate (at least the ones with drivers licenses).

    Sadly, for these right wing extremists, the ends justify the means so they are willing to lie, cheat and steal in any way they to win. I pray that there is a huge voter backlash against them for their efforts in their self-proclaimed voter suppression of non-white citizens.

  • http://twitter.com/Astraspider Astraspider

    Voter impersonation is the only type of fraud that these new laws would prevent. Where is the hand-wringing about fraud committed by election officials or fraudulent absentee ballots? Of those, voter impersonation is also the crime with the least reward  and the most risk.

  • Charles Vigneron

    Elections shall be free and equal; and NO POWER, CIVIL or military, SHALL AT ANY TIME INTERFERE TO PREVENT the FREE exercise of the RIGHT OF SUFFRAGE. Pennsylvania Constitution. Emphasis is mine.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       In the same Pennsylvania Constitution it says that the people of Pennsylvania have the right to clean air and water.

      Article I, section 27 of the Pennsylvania Constitution provides as follows:

      Sec. 27. Natural Resources and the Public Estate

       

      The people have a right to clean air, pure water, and to the
      preservation of the natural, scenic, historic and esthetic values of the
      environment. Pennsylvania’s public natural resources are the common
      property of all the people, including generations yet to come. As
      trustee of these resources, the Commonwealth shall conserve and maintain
      them for the benefit of all the people.

  • John_in_Amherst

    Charges of voter fraud were leveled against Strategic Allied Consulting, Sproul’s group hired by the GOP, in 2004.  A request by two senators that the DOJ under Ashcroft investigate went unheeded.  Charges against Sproul’s company have also been investigated in several other state and national elections.  (see below for a partial list) Diebold, the company which was formerly the major player in voting machine sales was disgraced when its head made comments implying his company would help deliver the 2004 election to the GOP.  The GOP-dominated Supreme court hands down Bush v. Gore in 2000.  The Tea Party organizes in 2012 to challenge wholesale the registrations of voters in Ohio districts that went for Obama in 08.  Senior GOP official in PA announces earlier this year that PA’s new voter ID law will help deliver the vote in his state for Romney.  And strict voter ID laws that clearly favor the GOP were recently passed in more than a dozen states whose legislatures are GOP dominated, despite a lack of evidence that false ID at the polls is a problem.  If these things were happening in another country’s election, we would denounce them. 
     
    The record on voter fraud, suppression and election tampering is pretty clear.  The GOP, which sells itself as the party of law & order and moral probity, seems willing to bend the law and more to win.  Shame is not a concept that means much to these people.  The courts and legal authorities are slow or disinclined to act.  It is up to the electorate to rebuke their tactics.

    More facts:
    - In Oregon and Nevada, Lincoln Strategies – then known as Sproul and
    Associates – was investigated for destroying Democratic voter
    registration forms. The Bush-Cheney 2004 presidential campaign paid
    Sproul $7.4 million for campaign work. [CNN, 10/14/04; KGW News, 10/13/04; East Valley Tribune, 09/07/06]
    - In Nevada, people who registered as Democrats with Lincoln
    Strategies – then known as Sproul and Associates – found their names
    absent from the voter registration rolls. [Reno Gazette-Journal,
    10/29/04]
    - During the 2006 midterm elections, Wal-Mart banned Lincoln
    Strategies for partisan voter registration efforts in Tennessee. The
    Republican National Committee had hired the firm. [Associated Press,
    08/24/06]
    - In Arizona, Lincoln Strategies employed a variety of deceptive
    tactics – including systematically lying about the bill – to push a
    ballot initiative to eviscerate the state’s clean elections law. [Salon,
    10/21/04]
    - Lincoln Strategies, then employed by the Republican Party, was
    behind efforts to place Ralph Nader on the ballot in states such as
    Arizona. [American Prospect, 06/25/04]

  • Charles Vigneron

    The Washington State 2004 election was the closest gubernatorial race in U.S. history. I think there were four (4) Certified illegal votes.

  • DrewInGeorgia

    Nice Tom!

  • madnomad554

    The simplest way to have voter ID, would be to change our Social Security cards into hard plastic swipe type cards, just like a bank or credit card. Considering this is the day and time of the computer and satellite communications, the polling stations could have card swipers. Once your SS card is swiped and your SS# is entered into the system, then upon trying to swipe a second time, the system would show the voter has already voted. Since no to SS#’s are alike, voter ID and fraud could be solved this way.   

    • William

       Very good idea.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        If all those Teabaggers wanted to do this properly, they’d have done this properly.

        “Millions for obstacles” is a feature, not a bug.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       You don’t have to be a citizen to have a SSN but your idea will certainly avoid double voting.

      • Ray in VT

        One could always note in such a system whether or not one was a citizen or whatever else might disqualify one from voting, such as being a convicted felon (where applicable).

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           I’m not sure I want the Federal government tracking citizens any more than they already do.

          • Ray in VT

            But if one doesn’t have anything to hide, then they don’t have anything to worry about, right?  That’s the argument that is sometimes made.

            If we really want to clean up the system, then I think that a national system, that gets phased in over a couple of years, would be the best way to go.  You mentioned the European states that require ID.  The perception seems to be that Europeans have, carry, and can perhaps be expected to produce papers.  Do we want to go that way?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  I just know that I would feel better about one national system than the hodge podge of state laws, especially considering how little I trust some of the states involved in these measures (I’m looking at you, The South).

          • Steve__T

             On that we agree.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Isn’t “double voting” by people not named Ann Coulter a problem on the scale of “how do we dispose of all that panda poop?”

    • Steve__T

       The ss law prohibits using your ss# or card for ID altho a lot of agency’s use them or the last 4 digits. ss cards were designed for one purpose  and one only and we’ve gone way pass the original intentions.

    • hennorama

      About 10 minutes after this went into effect, one would be able to buy counterfeit IDs in myriad locations nationwide.

      • madnomad554

        There are already counterfeit SS cards within the system, Many federal agencies already spend copious amounts of money each year, tracking down those during the counterfeiting. Much like the money counterfeiters.

  • skiboat

    I have to show ID’s every day.  I think it is important for people to show an ID to prove who they are in order to vote.  If they don’t drive, there are many other items that would prove ID.  Most states will issue a non-driver ID.  I am sure most people will or should have to show ID to cash a check,  collect welfare, food stamps, etc.  What is to keep someone from walking in and voting multiple times by just forging a signature in the book.  My vote is precious.  It should be protected.  

    • Saighead

       Voting is a national birth right, free, and anonymous.  The onus should be on the state, not any random citizen w/ an imagined grudge or sense of entitlement, to prove a voter is ineligible. 

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        The right to bear arms is guaranteed by the constitution but I need to show a photo ID (and much more) to purchase a firearm.

        • Saighead

           note, to PURCHASE a firearm.  Your use of it is protected & doesn’t require ID, unless you use it unlawfully.  A vote is yours because you’re here.  The evidence for fraud is scant to the point of falling within the thinnest margin of error.
          It’s a bald ploy by a blatantly undemocratic Republican apparatchik, and, dare I say, not a few so-called Libertarians…

        • Steve__T

           And what does that have to do with voting? Your not born with a gun. If you are born in this country you have the birth right to vote. How do you equate guns and voting ? Don’t confuse one right with another. It’s not sensible.

    • jefe68

      The votes of the folks who don’t have whatever ID your talking about is just as precious as yours. This is about suppression, period.

  • http://twitter.com/wadedawg25 Matthew Wade

    I like the quote, “If your vote didn’t matter, then why are the Republicans trying to take it away from you?”

  • NrthOfTheBorder

    What does it tell you about a nation where a significant portion of one side of the political spectrum is adamant that the other side is cheating their way to power?

    Kind of reminds me of the truism that the people who are most worried about being stolen from, are also the most likely to be thieves themselves.

    And, I’d like to know if the courts are demanding proof of voter fraud as a condition of blocking this legislation or not.  

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/YMV2HJ2TBKMCN2QRAVI3I2OOGM Jim Jim

    People assume that everyone is represented by either Democrats or Republicans. Both parties can make decisions that are good for both the parties and their funders, but no one else. Campaign  finance is THE BIG PROBLEM with our politics and as soon as that is still a problem, nothing else will be fixed. 

  • imjust Sayin

    This is a HUGE mistake by the GOP.  Even though there is no real voter fraud, and only modest voter exclusion because of these laws, the sad purpose is to motivate the “base”.

    And this is the reason I am no longer a political conservative.

    People will remember, after the current base of stroke victims dies off of old age, how the Republicans abused the voting system to stir up racial conflict.

    And, for those few stragglers who are still naive enough to think this matters, why not put your money where it will help?

    and where it will help is…

    putting your money behind non-partisan voter registration, instead of lobbyists of exclusion.

  • BigSeamus47

    The republicans who are pushing these laws claim that they are just trying to insure that there is no voter fraud, even though this is NOT a problem. Then they also work to reduce the opportunities to vote, such as the removal of Sunday voting in Florida. Reduction in the opportunities to vote are directly aimed at reducing the vote for working people.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Tom,

    Funny how you had to go back to the Politico’s political reporter, twice, to advance the conversation beyond unsubstantiated “horror stories” and the GOP’s fee-fees.

    Less Politico and more outside-the-beltway would serve this subject well, methinks.

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      I caught that too.  I’m not sure the reporter got it.  

      As the trend towards sensationalism-as-truth crowds the airwaves we need to implore journalists to dig down to something as close to the truth as possible.  That’s objective truth – yes, there is such a thing – free of spin – the attainment of which requires effort and a determination to pursue. 

      • John_in_Amherst

         “You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own set of facts” – Daniel Moynihan

        The facts in this issue seem weighted strongly toward the conclusion that these GOP fixes for voter fraud are solutions in search of problems, and in fact ARE the problem.

        • NrthOfTheBorder

          John… you comment is a non-sequitir as well as leaving me no idea of where you stand.  Perhaps you’re firing off responses a bit to quickly. 

          • John_in_Amherst

            I think we are basically on the same side here, BUT… First, stories of GOP vote suppression and meddling are hardly “unsubstantiated horror stories”.  Second, It is not just “beltway insiders” who have trouble identifying an organized effort to suppress voting from the Democrats that equates to what the GOP has been up to.  Truth is truth, as in “True is the opposite of False”.  Facts are true or they are not.  The BS approach of the media, in particular FOX, where facts can be “objective” or “subjective” (v. true or false), and where “fair and balanced” reporting requires equal time and weight be given to any opinion regardless of the veracity of it is a major reason a large segment of potential voters are having a hard time discerning the truth, making up their minds on a host of important issues, and getting out to vote.

    • John_in_Amherst

       Maybe providing counterbalancing “horror stories” of malfeasance that favors Democrats is just a lot harder because there are fewer of them or they are less egregious, or both, and that makes it unfathomable to the reporter?

  • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

    Clever… Republicans create the problem to justify the legislation. Now that’s market development. Although their fraud is not in-person, people will hear voting fraud and leap to conclusion that they need to support the GOP’s legislation.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Give away the disease, sell the cure.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    If you realize that the GoP agenda is taking us back in time and reviving all the bad things you thought were over, this makes perfect sense. Making it harder to vote with a pretense of combating non-existent fraud is outrageous. Why isn’t the administration putting a stop to this? It took the national guard to integrate schools in the south, maybe we need the same to escort voters to the polls in the red states.

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      The right is running scared. Above all, they are afraid of the color the US is turning into.   

      The country needs a balanced right  - a fully informed left-of-center standing on principle –  but, also, capable of compromise. 

      Unfortunately, that party is a thing of the past. Now, the GOP swayed by the misguided ( people who’ve drunk the Kool-aid of wedge and race issues and ironically, are among those who do not have their economic interests at heart) being manipulated by takers who have little interest beyond the next quarter and how best to avoid taxes.

      • William

         So when Obama called the Republicans “hostage takers” that was his example of being a moderate or radical Liberal?

        • John_in_Amherst

          Given the fact that the GOP after the 2008 election sought to nullify the mandate of the election by requiring a super-majority to get any legislation passed, and put anonymous holds on the largest number of executive appointments ever, given the fact that the GOP is willing to shut down government at the cost of denying food aid and medicine to the poor and vets, and enters into deals like the automatic cuts proposed to take effect if there is still a budget impasse, only to then renege on the bargain, I would say calling them “hostage takers” IS fairly bland…

          • William

             A political party does not roll over for the opposition. Obama feels that nobody should object to anything that he proposes. No matter how bad it is for the country he expects everyone to get on board and if are not, then you must be a “hostage taker”.

            Now is he a dictator?

          • John_in_Amherst

             Your comment ignores the facts that Obama took a lot of heat from the more progressive wing of his own party for a myriad of legislative proposals (healthcare, the environment, the handling of the financial crisis and banking industry, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to appease the GOP, etc. etc.) expressly because they were too timid and/or too conciliatory to the GOP, and that some of the proposals he has put forward were recycled GOP ideas which, since Obama has resurrected them, are now staunchly opposed by the GOP.  Obama and the Democrats won the 08 election, and the reason they got comparatively little done is a direct result of GOP not entering into ANY compromises.  Politics is the art of compromise, and the GOP has basically abdicated on its responsibility to the country by being totally intransigent.

        • NrthOfTheBorder

          Hi W you wrote this to me – (although it’s hard to locate my previous comment which it was a response to).

          But hey, nothing like a politician calling like it is.  Can I safely assume that the stand off’s emanating from the House this past term were all about reasonable people looking for the kind of compromises envisioned by the founders – or were they take-no-prisoner hostage takers like Obama said they were?

          As for a more effective congress we’ll see what the election brings won’t we?

      • TomK_in_Boston

        I think you’re right. We’re speeding toward 3′rd world oligarchy (while the Kool Aid drinkers talk about the “burden” carried by the rich) but they still need our votes. We still have the power to take back our middle class society and there are a lot more of us. So, what could be more obvious than suppressing the vote?

        I wonder if they’ll bring back the poll tax? That would be a tax increase they could get behind!

        • NrthOfTheBorder

          True – on the poll tax – or… property owners as being the only mortals worthy of voting. 

          It continues to baffle me as to why there are so many “working class” Republicans.  It must be that the issues of religion (Christian vs all others), abortion (men’s vs women’s rights), gun ownership (read: us against them) sure have a grip.  But to think that someone like Mitt Romney is going to lead these once-middle class folk to the promised land of prosperity is a joke.  Mitt is about about squeezing the most out of a labor pool & if it doesn’t add up here then ship the factory to China. 

          I can only think that if the income gap gets worse (and someone besides a black man is president) the backlash from these folks will be terrific. 

           

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Maybe voting for “job creators” only :)

            (Voodo-English translation: A “job creator” is anyone with a lot of money, even if he/she inherited it all or got it from wall st scams that destroyed jobs.)

            The reason for the “working class” republicans is the mystery of the age. There are regulars on this forum who sure don’t sound like 1%ers, or even 20%ers, who are passionate that the romney types don’t pay more and allow us to have infrastructure, scientific research, great inexpensive public education, defense, teachers, police, fire, medicare without ryan groupons, etc. Why?

            Maybe it’s being too immature to get past the immediate high of a tax cut. John Doe gets a few $hundreds, yay! Lord Etchasketch et al get $100,000s or $millions, State U raises tuition, and John doesn’t connect his $100 rebate with the $1,000 extra tuition for his kids.

            Nobody should vote for the GoP but the oligarchs. They should get less than 1% of the vote.

          • NrthOfTheBorder

            I’ll add the caveat that we can’t expect the 1% or the 20% to pay enough in increased taxes to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Seems our commitments made in a more prosperous time have become too much of a burden. so much so that all of us are going to take a hit lest we believe the Chinese are going to carry us forever.

            In many ways right-wing thinking has carried the day. Remember when they were saying continual tax breaks coupled with increased spending would, eventually, make us so nervous about the tide of debt that we’d come ’round to cutting government? That time is now. Problem is neither side wants to cut Grandma’s Medicare and neither side wants to point out that it’s all going to cost more, a lot more.

            I also think it’s taking a long time for the country to realize how far we’ve fallen off the high edge of American exceptionalism. We’re lot poorer – and prospects don’t look good. Sure, some will continue to do splendidly, but you have to wonder what’s going to happen to everyone else.

            _____

          • TomK_in_Boston

            Actually we’re not a lot poorer, depending on what you mean by “we”. GDP has kept increasing, but instead of being shared all the growth has been redistributed to the top.

            No single thing will pay off the debt, not that I think that’s a big deal. The righty tactic is to attack all proposed tax hikes by minimizing how much they can produce and then pointing that they won’t be a total fix, so they are useless. That’s because their real agenda is to redistribute even more to the top.

            The 1% are now getting 20% or more of the total income, which is about $14 trillion. So, a modest 10% “shared sacrifice” would yield close to $300 billion. That would build a lot of infrastructure, support a lot of scientific research, etc. I don’t care if it’s only a partial solution. 

            The top tax rate is second lowest since 1929 and the special 15% for the “entitled” financial con artists is the lowest. The estate tax has been gutted. It’s truly sick for those screaming about the deficit to reject higher taxes at the top.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Nice to know Republicans are getting out to register folks to vote.

    Provided they intend to vote for Romney.

    http://www.koaa.com/news/viral-voter-registration-video-the-truth-from-officials/

    • imjust Sayin

       In that news report, Democrats came off looking pretty good.  Because the Democrat volunteer was instructed not to deny voters based on any questions, she made the mistake of assuming the Romney volunteer was doing illegal things.

      And, while the Romney volunteer seemed sincere in helping Romney, she was sent out without being correctly trained in how to help people vote.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        The original story takes great, great pains to soft-peddle intent.

        It may be a lazy thing for me to just say “How would the Fox Shitestorm have sounded if the parties were switched?” But hey, sometimes it’s appropriate.

        This is getting “disappeared” from our Beltway Inbred media. Where’s TruthTeller James O’Keefe when we really need him?

  • Yar

    Can you imagine the line at the supervisor of elections?  I expect supervisor of elections will process provisional ballots “with all deliberate speed.”

  • http://twitter.com/wadedawg25 Matthew Wade

    JUDICIAL WATCH FOUNDER/CLINTON NEMESIS LARRY KLAYMAN MIGHT HAVE TOUCHED HIS CHILDREN IN THEIR SWIMSUIT AREAS

    http://wonkette.com/485407/judicial-watch-founderclinton-nemesis-larry-klayman-might-have-touched-his-children-in-their-swimsuit-areas

  • desertduster

    Voters should show up to the voting booth with their tax form.
    If you don’t file you don’t get a say.

    • gonkers

      So, by your “logic” if the GOP passes irresponsible tax cuts which remove 5 million citizens off the tax rolls as Bush bragged about in 2001… then those citizens should NOT be able to vote even if they dutifully pay all other taxes as required by law?

      • desertduster

         I am saying taxation and representation go hand in hand

        • gonkers

          You EVADED my point about the tax cuts.

          So how does voting work in your ideal world? If one doesn’t pay real estate taxes because they rent an apartment… they can’t vote in local elections? And if one is out of work and didn’t pay state income taxes that year… even if they paid sales taxes… they can’t vote in state elections?  And if a senior pays NO federal income tax, then they can’t vote in a federal election?

          Where we differ is I believe voting is an inherent right of being A CITIZEN.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       Gee Mitt would have a real problem then.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jhayesboh James Hayes-Bohanan

      Filing and paying are two different things. In fact, one has to file to get the Earned Income Tax Credit back. Undocumented workers pay a lot of taxes, incidentally. I have no problem giving them commensurate political rights, but I don’t think that is your intention.

    • Scott B

      That’s Robert HeinLein – You’re only a citizen if you serve; or perhaps Ayn Rand’s unwashed savages that don’t deserve a say because they aren’t deserving of the rights the “job creators” are.

      There are many senior citizens that make too little to file taxes. How do you say that all the people that served our country, or that had good paying jobs before they ended up in the street after the crash of ’08, don’t get to vote?  My dad served in WWII, but he and my mom didn’t make enough to file taxes at the end of their lives.  They don’t get to vote because they don’t have enough money?  That’s plutocrisy and ogligarchy at best.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        We came up with that Heinlein bit at the same time!

        Funny how the party of chickenhawks are all over their “concern” on military voters. They’re using the servicemen and -women as a “human shield” on this in PA and OH, to say the least.

  • tenn4

    Voter impersonation isn’t a problem, the real threats to honest elections are electronic voting and multiple vote suppression tactics. Voter impersonation has been debunked  many times,  the current clamor was created to disenfranchise specific voter demographics. Could the current Republican voter registration fraud have been designed to support their own contentions and boost support for the Voter ID laws?

  • Scott B

    Tom missed the point Mr Hohmann was making about “horror stories, thinking Mr Hohmann was going to repeat them as if they were true, when Mr Hohmann was making the point that these Republicans spread these stories like urban myths, where someone insists they saw someone using their food stamp benefit card to buy beer and cigarettes, when that doesn’t happen. 

    I hear these takes myself from my conservative friends and acquaintances and it’s easy to tear the tales apart, but it’s fighting the “Man Who Shot Liberty Valance” problem: If you tell something enough time it becomes “true”, and the people that want it to be true don’t want to hear facts. They want to believe it because they think their way of life will disappear, which in this case is that white conservatives are under threat and America will go to hell in a handbasket if it’s not preserved.

  • tenn4

    Voter impersonation has been definitively debunked as an issue, the clamor was created to disenfranchise very specific voter demographic groups. Those insisting it’s a problem are close kin to the anti-evolutionists, climate change deniers, and birthers. The real threats to honest elections are electronic voting and the various voter suppression tactics being employed by Republican-led legislatures across the country.

  • tenn4

    Voter impersonation has been definitively debunked as an issue, the clamor was created to disenfranchise very specific voter demographic groups. Those insisting it’s a problem are close kin to the anti-evolutionists, climate change deniers, and birthers. The real threats to honest elections are electronic voting and the various voter suppression tactics being employed by Republican-led legislatures across the country.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

    I have no confidence in U.S. elections. None.

    But it isn’t because people are voting more then once. Hell half the nation doesn’t even vote once.

    It’s because of the electronic voting. So easy to get the results you want at the tally.

    Democracy is nothing but a charade anymore in America.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jhayesboh James Hayes-Bohanan

    The reason this election might not be decided until Thanksgiving is that politicians are trying two strategies. The first is to get voters to choose them. In case that fails, however, they are trying their best to choose their voters. This has been true from Elbridge Gerry to Katherine Harris.

  • MrNutso

    Tom has it right.  The PA Supreme Court essentially said that if the potential exists for suppressing votes the law must be blocked. That was their instructions to the lower court.

    Also, the ID requirements are becoming a moving goal posts.  New types of ID’s are being allow and restrictions on the types of documents needed to get ID are being reduced.

  • Scott B

    Someone has yet to explain why Texas allows a gun permit to be used for ID, but not a college ID. Seems to me you want smart voters, and it doesn’t take a genius to pull a trigger. 

    But the people trying to eliminate so many voters don’t want informed voters, they want sheeple that will buy into their party line.

  • gonkers

    There’s a bigger issue here that is being ignored. Just what is a democracy… or a democratic republic? It’s a system where government derives its JUST powers from the CONSENT of the governed. Elections are the tool to measure that consent. Implicit in that system is that a citizen should be able to vote their conscience and get some representation for their beliefs.

    Sadly our federal system is incapable of accurately measuring citizen consent, but worst, it’s a system of vote weighting/dilution schemes which gives SOME citizens bigger votes than others based on their choice of state residence. In our system ultra tiny minorities can block what the vast majority desires, and those representing a MINORITY of citizens can actually rule.

    So where’s the moral legitimacy in our system? 

     

    • gonkers

      Leaving aside the matter that the Electoral College can impose on the nation a president who was rejected by the People…

      In the US Senate, about 18% of the US population gets about 52% of the seats. The Senate has special duties that can not be blocked by the House such as ratifying judicial nominees.

      The 12 smallest states that can block any amendment comprise about 4.5% of the US population.

      Yet the 38 smallest states that can ratify any amendment comprise only 38% of the population.

       

  • http://twitter.com/wadedawg25 Matthew Wade

    10,000 IDs issue by PA DOT…only 890,000 to go. you’ve got a month, guy! This Judicial Watch tool is the worst kind of human, selling out his fellow man in service of the corporate powers.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Good job on the math, Matt. Now if only they could get someone at “Judicial Watch” to master non-linear algebra addition and subtraction required to come up with this elementary number.

      • MrNutso

        I was told there wasn’t going to be any math.

  • Yar

    As for voting.
    7 more votes and Yar breaks 3000 likes at ON-Point.Still, least liked listed, thank you to all who manage to understand my posts full of spelling errors and wrong word placements.
    I am happy to make this blog home.
    Your support is loved and your vote is appreciated. 
    Thank you.
    Yar-Ray

  • hnzelaznik

    Voting is a right.  Why don’t we make everyone prove they are innocent of any charge?  It is up to the election boards to show a person is not eligible.  Rights cannot be taken away.  Driving a car is privilege, flying on a plane is a privilege.

  • Brian Heidgerken

    Why don’t we dip our finger or thumb in ink like they do in Iraq? It shows that you voted and can only vote once…unless you remove you finger.

  • MrNutso

    Ellen and Roslyn highlight the problem with ID laws.  They make sense, but do not provide for getting ID to those who don’t have it.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

    The Speaker of the House wants Mitt and this law will deliver the state to him.

    “I heard it but I didn’t hear it.” Tool.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    I have a constitutional right to bear firearms but I need a photo ID to purchase a firearm.

    If I didn’t have an ID was I disfranchised?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       Well, you know the vote is more dangerous then a gun in America.

    • hennorama

      While we do indeed have the constitutional right to BEAR (fire)arms, there is no corresponding constitutional right to PURCHASE (fire)arms.

      Ergo, no, you would not be denied the right to bear arms if you didn’t have an ID.

      BTW, the Constitution never explicitly ensures the right to vote, although it contains many references and phrases about ways people cannot be DENIED the right to vote.

      One could argue that this is an good case to call for a Constitutional Amendment.  Then perhaps we could finally get rid of all of these elections issues.

  • 1Brett1

    Another tactic (in swing states, especially) has been to limit the number of voting machines/polling places in districts where students, the elderly, or poor working people are domiciled in larger populations, or in areas that have a majority black population/Democratic population. This causes crowds/long waiting lines, etc. In the last election, in Ohio, for example, there were 10-hour waiting times in some districts. If you have to go to your shift job, or a class, or you are elderly and, say, can’t stand for long time, this would discourage you from voting. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/susan.schneir Susan Schneir
  • Scott B

    If they’re going to be an ID required, then it should be set 30 year from now, when the vast majority of people are born in hospitals, there’s multiple records, and getting a copy is a matter of email or a fax. 

    As it sits now there are millions of people that would have difficulty getting an ID, as exampled by the 90 year old vets, blacks born at home, and people that had the place that held their records – be it their house, courthouse, or hospital – washed or blown way in a natural disaster, or even a house fire.

  • http://twitter.com/wadedawg25 Matthew Wade

    Micheal Bekesha, spin baby, spin!

    If even one person’s vote is denied because of these laws, Bekesha and stooges like him need to be deported to freedom-loving nations like Somalia and Uzbekistan.

    • OnPointComments

      If even one person’s vote is canceled by a fraudulently cast vote…

  • hnzelaznik

    Already stated, but we need to discriminate rights from privileges.  Whenever a crime is committed why don’t we make people prove their innocence?  So, we should assume they are eligible citizens until proven otherwise.  This is just a smokescreen to disenfranchise voters, like the poll tax, or a reading requirement to keep poor and minorities from voting.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

    My grandmother voted in the same town for the past 60 years.

    Now she needs an ID. Progress. Please.

    Progress would be paper ballots and no electronic machines that can be changed to whatever TPTB want.

  • JGC

    What is the thinking for suppressing the elderly vote by the republican party? Isn’t this overall one of their natural conservative constituencies?  Did the Republican Party accidentally throw Granny out with the bath water in their zeal for voter ID?   Or are they considered a part of the nonproductive 47%, stubbornly living to their advanced ages, greedily drawing their benefits and further eroding the national deficit? 

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       It’s the latter. They want to end SS and Medicare. It helps greatly if you can keep the people living on them out of the voting booth.

  • 1Brett1

    Neocons: LESS REGULATION!! (except to suppress voter turn-out, undermine Roe v. Wade, prevent marijuana use, etc., and on and on, and on) 

    They’re like children who are accused of the obvious transgression, caught red-handed, but maintain they are innocent and weren’t doing what is obvious.

  • RolloMartins

    So much baloney: the process isn’t becoming more efficient and more honest, but is confirming voter suspicion of fraud…by politicians. Oh sure, we’ll make everyone capable of voting…except the poor and blacks and hispanics and the elderly; those we’ll just make it as difficult as possible.

  • http://twitter.com/wadedawg25 Matthew Wade

    The larger issue, of course, is that voter suppression is the last resort for a dying political party. The GOP can’t win on the merits of their ideas so they have to rig the system. Pretty un-American when you think about it.

  • John_in_VT

    If you really want to suppress the vote then we just go back to only allowing property holders to vote. That was the original ‘voting right’ the framers put in the Constitution. Then, we truly get back to original intent. So, if you’re a woman be sure your name is on the deed to your property.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

      That would mean mostly the banks would get the right to vote as millions don’t own anything, just an IOU to the banks.

      • John_in_VT

         Greg – Banks are people too – haven’t you been listening to Mitt?

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

           You’re right.

          And they deserve to vote as many times as mortgages they own.

          Just stand at the back of the line to do it banks.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Don’t mean to scare you, but there are places in which well-off people with vacation homes have been stirring to cast local ballots w.r.t. property taxes and zoning. They pay taxes to more than one locale, they want to vote in more than one locale, without giving up their full-time-residence voter reg.

      • gonkers

        Hey, which reminds me… back in 1959 when Alaska became a state… a cereal company was giving away a square inch (or was it a square foot) of Alaska for boxtops. So can I vote there?

        Damn it, where’s my deed!!!!!

        (On the other hand I certainly don’t want anyone coming after me for 53 years of back property taxes.)

  • gonkers

    In a democracy that allows free speech, no policy that serves the special interests of ONE group can be sold to the public unless it’s packaged as benefiting us all.

    So when the GOP wants to suppress the Democratic vote it has to be sold to the True Believers on the Right as a noble effort to protect the integrity of the ballot box.  

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       Yeah, all those “other” people are electing the side you are against.

      Same old. Same old.

      If you understand that the mentality of people is still coming from our ancient past when we lived in a small group of clans you understand how effective the old “other” trick is.

      Never fails.

  • Spiesi

    Maybe I just missed it but this is what was missing from today’s discussion –

    Voter ID Laws Take Aim At College-Student Voters”In Tennessee, a new law requiring voters to show photo identification at the polls explicitly excludes student IDs.In Wisconsin, college students are newly disallowed from using university-provided housing lists or corroboration from other students to verify their residence.Florida’s reduction in early voting days is expected to reduce the number of young and first-time voters there.And Pennsylvania’s voter identification bill, still on the books for now, disallows many student IDs and non-Pennsylvania driver’s licenses, which means out-of-state students may be turned away at the polls.”http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/22/voter-id-laws-gop-college-student_n_1791568.html for full article

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       All those pesky students voting for their future.

      Can’t have that. Only old white men future will be accepted.

      • MrNutso

        New Hampshire House Speaker William O’Brien, a Republican, told a tea party group that allowing people to register and vote on Election Day led to “the kids coming out of the schools and basically doing what I did when I was a kid, which is voting as a liberal. That’s what kids do — they don’t have life experience, and they just vote their feelings.”

        http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/01/379434/new-hampshire-gop-speaker-discourages-students-from-voting-because-theyll-vote-liberal/

        • Steve__T

           Yeah but they get to vote which is their right, regardless of who or for what reason.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            And the mindset is telling: The “Hamshan” (New Hampshire House Speaker) is describing a right as a parent would a  “privilege”, granted to the citizen, and if abused, subject to revocation.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    Did our host actually entreat a guest from Judicial Watch to “move away from mood to fact”?

    Tom, that’s not part of their purpose.

    This hour so needed a liberal partisan to fight back against a Politico and a Judical Watcher. Too much of “what everybody knows” said this hour is a direct result of propaganda right-wing media.

    • StilllHere

      Tom is your liberal partisan. Next.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Gawd, you’re pathetic. So long in the hothouse you can’t handle the gentle breeze of bending-over-backwards public radio polite.

  • Birdwatcher1

    I cannot believe that Tom’s guest even believes what he is saying, himself. He is clearly there as a representative of the GOP, who is very happy to see his party steal this upcoming election. He is not listening to the guests who are relating experiences of not being able to get proper IDs in order to vote. “Most voters have IDs…” it is not about MOST voters, it is imperative that ALL qualified voters (legal voters) are issued their IDs – this cannot be a hardship for them. In every other industrialized country in the world, everyone has a government issued ID and can easily vote. ONLY IN AMERICA is this an issue – because we have such a diverse and geographically spread out electorate, that people don’t have these IDs. THERE IS NO PROVEN VOTER FRAUD – this is a tactic for the right wing – and it appears they are going to pull it off unless the courts decide otherwise. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Hey Tom  you keep playing the PA legislature comment about Romney winning the election after the voter law reform and then express your disbelief because you think this is a clear ‘gotcha’.

    Perhaps, that PA legislator truly believes that voter fraud exists in PA and this reform levels the playing field and therefore will allow Romney to win in a fair election.

    He has since clarified his remark to mean exactly that so it isn’t a ‘gotcha’ as you want us to believe.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/GYOKNNUKGSRTSA4RNFMUJRO5WE Greg

       you’re a hoot.

    • Scott B

       The PA legislator was trying to do damage control. This is the same as the Republicans trying to spin what’s happening with the firm they were using to register voters as somehow completely different than ACORN. The guy can spin it all he wants, like Romney trying to spin his statement about the 47% of Americans feeling they are victims and addicted to welfare. Spin it all you want, say it wasn’t eloquent or what you meant, but it was said; and when a politician has a gaffe like the saying about a gaffe is what a politician really thinks is in most people minds.
        The Republicans have a bad reputation for getting caught on tape and saying: “I didn’t say that,” as if its being recorded doesn’t count. “That’s not what I meant,” is a close second, but then they can’t explain to any reasonable degree what meant, or why they said it.  At best they try to cop to it being hyperbole, like Jon Kyl saying that over 90% of Planned Parenhood’s business was aborting, went it’s barely into the single digits. Kyl justified his laying about the number (and admitted he lied deliberately) as a way to make his point. The point I saw, and many others, is that facts won’t back him up so he has to perpetuate a lie to try to get it to stick.

      So why did the PA legislator say it?  You said he meant something else, so what was it?  Is there some other way to take him boasting that the new voter laws would hand Romney PA’s electoral college votes? 

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         The difference is the GOP immediately fired the contractor who was committing registration fraud and the Dems defended Acorn for months on end.

        • Scott B

           ACORN didn’t do anything wrong, whch was proven over and over.  The people they hired to actually go out and get people to sign up were falsifying names and addresses, exactly the same as what’s happening on this case.  This is what happens when you give this kind of job, a job paid by the
          name, not the hour, to people that probably don’t have all that much
          money to begin with.  They’re human,and humans will do such things.

          So how is this any different? Do Republicans get a free pass because they’re Republicans They get bonus points because Republicans, and the party, are scrambling to distance themselves from this? How is it bad that Democrats defended ACORN, who was fully cooperating?

    • Steve__T

       You really should change your name to WorriedforRomney

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         LOL.

        No, I think he’s doing just fine.

  • John Drinane

    I currently live in Brazil and here everyone is required to Vote. Every person must register with the Gov. receive an ID and vote. It is the law here, if you don’t vote there are repercussions, however i’m not sure what they are or how severe. So in Brazil requiring ID goes hand in hand with require registration with the gov. and requiring voting. Just an observation…. 

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Required to vote?  Is that in your constitution? What is the penalty for not voting?

      I guess liberty isn’t a Brazilian priority.

      • John Drinane

        I’m not Brazilian, I’m an American on a Visa… Compulsory voting isn’t isolated to brazil, I think Australia has it as well. I am not sure what the penalty is but I think it is just a fine. Also you can chose to not vote for any of the candidates but you still have to show up and check in. I just found it interesting how the discussion talked about how voting isn’t a privilege but a right… and I was thinking what if it was a required obligation..

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Interesting.  Thanks.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/7PCBO7MOTRVVFJZC4AAAQAKOOU Denise

          You have to pay a fine to the voter registry. If you don’t pay the fine you can’t get your passport or federal ID card renewed, stand for puplic office, enroll in school, get a loan from a state-owned bank, etc. It makes life a pain.

          Voting is a duty of citizenship, and choosing a candidate is the right. The problem with requiring every citizen to vote is that some can’t even read or write, while others don’t take it seriously. There was an
          election in the 1920s when one city elected a goat to congress as a form of protest. More recently a clown running in character under his stage name was elected.

          So everyone gets to the polls but what comes out isn’t necessarily the will of the people.

    • hennorama

      I was surprised to learn that there are currently 23 countries around the world that have compulsory voting.

      There are significant arguments both for and against this concept.

      (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting )

      One can always submit a blank or deliberately damaged ballot if one has no actual interest in the issues, candidates, etc. on the ballot.

      This is another example of how Americans should remember that our particular form of democracy is not universal, and that democracies unlike ours can and do function well.

  • hennorama

    The uproar over the issues of voter ID and voter fraud could be reduced significantly.

    Simply require that any changes to voting eligibility and related requirements must be enacted and made effective a minimum of one year before the next Congressional elections.  This will help to remove the partisan nature of these last-minute changes, and allow a reasonable period of accomodation to those who may need to acquire an ID for an upcoming election.

    There would also need to be significant special accomodations to those who are disabled or infirm or who otherwise cannot get to locations that issue IDs, etc. (assuming IDs would be required).  With the proliferation of digital cameras and smart phones, this would seem to be simple to fix.  Just send an election office clerk out into the field.

    Of course, it would help if state and local election officials and boards were all non-partisan, but that’s a dream in this exceptionally divided political climate.

  • burroak

         A topic that needs further discussion, investagion, and news coverage throughout our nation during the remaining weeks of this decisive, important 2012 election year. This fundamental right of all Americans is far too valuable to be deformed by manipulations.
         Our right to vote is something envied and treasured throughout the world.  We should treat it as that…a rare treasure. 

    • Steve__T

       Well if you have not noticed, their are a lot of people trying their best to destroy this country and make it what they want, and our freedoms is not a part of it.

  • LiamPaul

    As we have heard there is no data to support there
    is an impersonation problem at the polls. 
    This is a problem looking for a solution. So contrary to logic and
    reason we are now passing all sorts of ID laws based on “principal”.  We’ll let take “principal “to its
    logical reasonable conclusion so we all feel good about the solution to the
    non-existing problem.

     

    When a person is born run their DNA and assign is a
    permanent number and then tag the person so they will for the rest of their
    life have the tag, DNA and number  associated
    and stored in a national data base.  Give
    then a titanium card with the number. 
    Have them at some frequency verify they all match and update the card
    accordingly.  This ID will be used for
    all purposes when an ID is required. 

     

    • Steve__T

       No way you are gonna get away with that at least I hope not. I don’t need to be followed my whole life. You want to track people with a DNA tag please, you want to do it at birth so I have no choice or say? Where is the freedom in that? Try something else that does not infringe on my personal rights and freedoms.

    • Gregg Smith

      “As we have heard there is no data to support there
      is an impersonation problem at the polls.”

      How would it be possible to collect such data?

      • OnPointComments

        I heard a Democratic Party operative explaining why it would be so difficult to impersonate someone at the polls:  the impersonator would have to know a person’s name and address, and know that the person had not already voted and would not come in later to vote.  He concluded by saying that this would be nearly impossible to pull off.  It occurred to me how easy this voter fraud would be because the list of people to impersonate is published in the newspaper every day:  the obituaries. I’m pretty sure those people won’t have already voted or come in to vote.

    • hennorama

      An excellent point about passing laws to solve non-existent problems, such as to prevent the use of Sharia law, or the proposed Missouri gun law that was so ably skewered by The Daily Show with Jon Stewart:
      http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-may-3-2012/free-at-last–free-to-blast

      The proposed Missouri law “Specifies that it will be an unlawful employment practice to discriminate against an individual because he or she has a concealed carry endorsement or uses a firearm for a lawful purpose.”

      No such discrimination has been shown to exist.

      This particular proposed law is not intended to solve any existing problem, but rather, as sponsor Wanda Brown says “This is preventative to protect the Second Amendment for everyone in the future.”

      “… in the future …”  Hilarious.

      Liam just a couple of final points:

      1. Sarcasm and reductio ad absurdum arguments can be difficult to “read” in forums such as this.  Believe me, I have considerable experience in these matters.

      2. Hate to be a stickler, but the word you meant to use is “principle” rather than “principal”

  • Gregg Smith

    For the sake of this discussion, I will stipulate that I’m a racist, bigoted homophobe with an IQ of 10. I only get my news from radical right-wing sources who have brainwashed me. I hoping this will save some valuable blog space so that my simple question can be answered.

    How do voter ID laws make it harder for blacks to vote?

    • Steve__T

       That sick and some one liked it that’s sicker, oh it was Stillhere yep I was right. sickos

      • StilllHere

        So typical of you, no answer.

        • Steve__T

           Back at cha

          • StilllHere

            Still nothing, gotcha.  Where’s the permanent ignore button on Discus?

          • Steve__T

             If I could have found it I would have used it on you long ago.

    • Gregg Smith

      To add: I will also stipulate that I’m sick. I really would appreciate an answer.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       The same way it makes it harder to purchase a beer at the ballpark or fly on an airline.

      Didn’t you know the TSA is racist?

    • gonkers

       I wouldn’t go that far… but when YOU write:

      “Rush is by far the most fair, insightful and accurate of the three (Rush, Beck and Savage) and a much better source of information than The MSM or NPR.”

      …then it’s clear you prefer wallowing in Orwellian Right spin and propaganda over ANY attempt to get objective information.

      • Gregg Smith

        I already stipulated I was brainwashed. I really would appreciated an answer to my incredibly simple question.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        And you’ve never had Rush call your mother or wife or daughter “a slut, a prostitute”, I’ll guess.

        • Gregg Smith

          I will also stipulate Rush is a bad bad man who has zero respect for women. I really would appreciate an answer to my unbelievably simple question.

    • gonkers

      Because such ID laws are an obstacle to voting that strikes SOME demographic groups harder than others… and if the GOP can suppress 1-2% off the Democratic vote, then that can be enough to swing a tight election.

      White suburban dwellers who have two cars automatically have drivers licenses. Minority inner city dwellers might just use mass transportation. They then have to go out of their way to get some official ID card.

      You KNOW this yet you’re here playing dumb. Shame Gregg… shame!

      • gonkers

        Then there’s the Voting Rights Act of 1965 which was expanded in the subsequent years.
        Leaving aside the fact that some states/counties are still on a legal watch list
        for past voter discrimination, the law is Quote:

        (a) No citizen shall be
        denied, because of his failure to comply with any test or device, the right to
        vote in any Federal, State, or local election conducted in any State or
        political subdivision of a State.

        (b) As used in this section, the term
        “test or device” means any requirement that a person as a prerequisite for
        voting or registration for voting

        (1) demonstrate the ability to read,
        write, understand, or interpret any matter,

        (2) demonstrate any educational
        achievement or his knowledge of any particular subject,

        (3) possess good
        moral character, or

        (4) prove his qualifications by the voucher of
        registered voters or members of any other class.

        • Gregg Smith

          I’m sorry, I could not find any reference to race in the law. Please point it out. Or did you infer “black” from the description of people who could not read or write and don’t have educational achievements or moral character?

          • gonkers

             What part of “NO CITIZEN” is hard to understand?

          • gonkers

             It’s not a trick question Gregg.

          • Gregg Smith

            The charge is Voter ID laws are targeting blacks and you cite something that refers to all citizens. I asked for the reference to blacks. I think you inferred that B 1,2,3 were describing blacks.

          • gonkers

            Why would you expect voter suppression language in a law originally designed to PROTECT minority voters?

            You want the smoking gun language that targets specific groups of likely Democratic voters for suppression… find some GOP strategic planning documents.

            My bringing up the VRA was NOT to explain how Blacks were being targeted. I already answered that elsewhere. I brought up the VRA to show that voter ID laws are probably illegal.

            Please try to focus.

          • Gregg Smith

            The charge is requiring voter ID is racist. Focus.

      • Gregg Smith

        So if you are black then you are not capable of having two cars? There are no poor white Republicans who don’t have cars because, after all, they are white and more capable? Blacks should not have to go to any trouble whatsoever to get an ID because the bar should be lowered for their inferior selves?

        • gonkers

          Please don’t play dumb or play the race card. Of course there are minority suburban dwellers and poor inner city whites. The voter suppression game here isn’t surgical, it works off percentages. It aims at demographic groups more LIKELY to vote Democratic. It’s OK if 20% of GOP voters are caught in the game as long as there are 80% of Dems hit.

          • Gregg Smith

            So most poor blacks are Democrats because they’re poor blacks. Gotcha’.

          • gonkers

            Pathetic. I’m not the one using demographics to suppress the Democratic vote. I’m only trying to explain how YOUR BUDDIES in the GOP must think. Talk to Carl Rove.

          • Gregg Smith

            First and for most it’s “Karl”. And your demographic argument doesn’t hold water.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Gonkers, you seem reasonable enough, so let me offer you this advice:

            You expect Gregg, who doesn’t see racism, to know what shame is?

            I admire your faith in humanity.

        • jefe68

          The GOP voter suppression laws are equal opportunity in that they are targeting poorer people who live in both urban and rural areas. They are targeting Latinos and students and the elderly, some of whom are African Americans. This is voter suppression, period. That you don’t see it this way speak volumes about your political ideology and what you believe in. You’re not able to see the racism because you don’t want too. You just call people sick who don’t see the world through your lens.

    • JGC

      One example I have heard is during the Jim Crow era, many blacks were discouraged from using hospital services, so there were many home births attended by a midwife without the issuance of a birth certificate.  Even if there was a birth certificate, some segregation laws even required separate storage arrangements for black birth, marriage and death certificates from the white ones. (I wonder if certificate storage was also separate but equal?) I imagine finding these documents, if they ever even existed, could be an onerous burden for some blacks of a certain age. 

        

      • Gregg Smith

        That’s something, I suppose. Bravo. I did not think of that. I also believe the same thing happened here in Appalachia, not because of Jim Crow laws but because of poverty. I suppose there are citizens who are impossible to ID [insert birther joke here] but I don’t think it’s a widespread problem. Lineage is tracked and proven all the time through Family Bibles, Census, court documents, wills, church records, etc. 

        • JGC

          I thought of it because my mother was a nurse in Georgia in the 1940s, and she sometimes worked in the “colored” ward. (She got her nursing degree through the Army Cadet Nurse Corps program in 1944.  Now, therrrrre was a government “freebie”, for a kid who was raised on a struggling dairy farm with 7 brothers and sisters during the Great Depression…This was a very successful program that came a few years before the G.I. Bill came into existence.  But I digress…)

    • Shag_Wevera

      I’d say your IQ is 90 or so.  Don’t be so hard on yourself. 

      • StilllHere

        Someone as obviously bright as you should be able to answer the question. 

        • Shag_Wevera

          Not true!  Not true!  I just last week took an IQ test and scored 109.  I’m just an average guy.

          • StilllHere

            Gotcha, too average to add anything and too dumb to know you don’t.

          • Steve__T

             Look in a mirror and repeat that 10 times.

  • StilllHere

    Do you need an id for the Obamaphone program?  How about the other government freebies?

    • NrthOfTheBorder

      ??

    • Shag_Wevera

      Leave your Limbaugh trash at the door please…

      • StilllHere

        No answer, so pathetic.

    • jefe68

      Your pathetic.

    • JGC

      Yes. The government now demands 100% verification of recipients of Lifeline services on an annual basis.  

    • JGC

      Yes. The government now demands 100% verification of recipients of Lifeline services on an annual basis.  

    • StilllHere

      No answers.  I guess we don’t want to know.  Wonder why.

    • gonkers

       The is NO such thing as the “Obama Phone” program. This term is being pushed by the Right as the newest incarnation of the Cadillac driving welfare queen.

      • StilllHere

        It’s like Obamacare. It’s short-hand and pretty soon the White House will be using it too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/johnsonrichards Judy Richards

    Requiring a government issued picture id is a calculated effort to disenfranchise voters who support our president. No more evidence was needed that the republicans who boasted they could “deliver PA if the law passed”  Isn’t it curious that equally rigorous efforts to avoid “voter fraud” are not going after the people who have the luxury of two homes – one in the north and the other in sunny FL. What safeguards are in place to prevent this group of people from voting in person in one state and by absentee ballot in the other….
    show more

  • 3JanetMassaro4

    Tom, I listend this am with notepad and  pen to learn something new.  Then realized i could have asked a question – after program ended.

    If voting is a “right” (some say it is not written in the constitution, and constitution should be amended to state this), shouldn’t governemnt be responsible for registering all eligible voters (citizens and those over 18)?

    If Voter IDs play an important role of building voter confidence in the system, why not have a national permanent voter registration ID?

    Does it promote democracy to  find one example of voter ID misrepresentation while depriving hundreds of legitimate voters from voting? 

    If PA is doing “all it can” and has helped 10,000 obtain photo Voter IDs, that is pretty dismal considering the number of voters.

    As poll worker for many years, i know that errors do occur but one obvious abuse that seems especially egregious is absentee voting and no one addresses this in detail.   Many years ago it came to our attention that absetee ballots were being mailed to voters with “vote for me” literature inserted.

    Truth is, we have always sought ways to help our candidate and punish those we oppose. 

    • sgmp3

      Forget “we  have always”…at one time we had “always” sold slaves but with a tremendous economic upheaval, it was ended. We are in the middle of another upheaval now. There has to be a way to stop this corruption. 

  • Shag_Wevera

    The Republicans are trying to change the voting requirements for constituencies that traditionally vote against them.  They are also attempting to do it on fairly short notice.  Vote fraud is a miniscule problem, by any statistical measure I’ve ever heard.

    Considering the changing demographics of this country, it seems like a reasonable strategy for republicans to extend their natural lifespan.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Are you saying non citizens vote for Dems?

      Evidence please.

      • Shag_Wevera

        I never mentioned non-citizens, so I don’t understand your question.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        “Are you saying non-citizens vote for Dems?

        Evidence please.”

        Hey, JAQing off is fun. Let me try a context free hypothetical of my own:

        “Worried For the Country, are you saying you’re not a child molester?

        Evidence please.”

  • gonkers

    In a voting system like ours which has so turned off voters that routinely 50-65% of the voting age population doesn’t vote, a party can take control of Congress with a mere 17-18% consent of the voting age population. That’s what happened in the 1994 off-year election with the so-called “Republican Revolution”.

    Perhaps if to win elections a candidate had to win a majority of the voting age POPULATION instead of those who merely voted, then the GOP would not be so intent at suppressing the vote and would be looking to EXPAND it. But as long as our system only measures those who vote, then the GOP has a built in motive to keep suppressing Democratic voters. Even if those who vote represent drops to a mere 25% of the voting age population or less, all that matters is getting that 50% +1 of those who DO/CAN vote.

  • sgmp3

    I was only able to hear a portion of this. However, I hoped to hear that someone on this program was reading or had read “Billionaires and Ballot Bandits” by Greg Palast. 
    We have all, from both sides, said that things are a total mess. Then many of us fault the money. Well, this answers questions you’ve had and some you never thought to ask.
    Checking for fraudulent voters is just ONE way they suppress the vote. There are others. And the reasons they do it?  That is interesting, too. 

    • gonkers

       Another way to suppress the Democratic vote will be with right wing poll watchers who will challenge or intimidate voters at the polling stations in largely Democratic precincts. And let’s not forget having fewer voting machines in Democratic precincts so long lines build up and some voters walk away without voting.

      • JGC

        Like truethevote.org

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Why all this hand wringing about the ballot box?

    I thought the race was over.  That is what the NYT, WaPO, NPR and CNN told me.

    What did I miss?

    • gonkers

       What did you miss? The obvious, as usual. ;-)

    • mmaaaxx

       yeah, it’s over and Gary Johnson is President!

  • gonkers

    There’s a deeper context here that’s not being explored. It’s whether the GOP or more precisely the far Right that now controls the GOP has contempt for the very concept of democracy where every citizen in theory has a vote for no other reason than they are citizens. The Right prefers the market where money rules… where those with no money have no voice.

    The Right has a minority agenda of protecting wealth and power. Since it can’t win elections with that agenda it must attract others to form a coalition… usually around emotional issues that short-circuit one’s sense of self-interest. So the Right loves the God, guns, gays, flag, sexist and racist issues. People so consumed with those emotional issues probably don’t care if the Right is harming them in the wallet or undermining their safety net. Built into the core of GOP political strategy is a contempt for democracy… that if all’s fair, if there’s a rational electorate, they can never win.

    Since they won’t change their core agenda they must change the system. Buying elections and suppressing the vote are central strategies.

    • pete18

       What the “far” right values is freedom. The freedom of the individual to have an emancipated exchange between the buyer and seller in the marketplace. If people become wealthy in that exchange all the better.

      If your myopic, partisan vision can only let see the right being involved in peripheral emotional political issues then I have a bridge to the 21st century to sell you. However, there will be a toll, licensing fee and preemptive death tax that needs to be paid before you can use it.

      • gonkers

        Where did I say the Right is ONLY involved in emotional issues. The hard core puppet masters of the Right just uses such emotional issues to build their coalition of dupes. Even the “freedom” theme is bogus. They’re all for “freedom” if a coalition is on their side… like the gun owners. They are hardly for freedom in the bedroom.

        • pete18

          Try responding to my actual critique not the one you invented for me. The suggestion that Republicans bring voters out using emotional issues but the democrats do not
          is absurd on its face. The fabricated “war against women” being the most recent  democrat incarnation of such. There are dupes and manipulators in both parties and there are also honestly held differences of opinion. Instead of creating a false sense of superiority for yourself by inventing craven motives for your enemy, you might try arguing what you think to be the advantages of your positions and philosophy. If you’re incapable of that then don’t try presenting yourself as untouched
          by partisan blinders, while projecting the
          opposite visage on all those you disagree with. It’s lame and intellectually dishonest.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      They’ll do whatever they can, and if they can return to the days of the poll tax, or votes for property owners only, great.  There are more of us than there of them, and we need to take the USA back before it’s too late.

      • gonkers

         What’s there to take back? The US political/electoral are antidemocratic and designed to stay that way. THIS is the reason why the Right has so much power in the US… not just through voter suppression and election fraud. We can’t change the system as long as Liberals refuse to even define democracy. Once they do they’ll begin to think strategically…. they’ll develop a 20-40-60 year plan to reform the US.

        • TomK_in_Boston

          LOL. Well, there’s plenty to take back, but I agree that there is no effective force right now. It’s too bad when the best we can do is back a Rockefeller republican against a total class warrior. There is no left.

  • mmaaaxx

    I don’t trust either of the parties, nor the workers at the polls. But I do think that “minorities” and elderly people are smart and capable enough to get a damn ID card. It’s soooooo easy. Of course people should need ID!

    • Shag_Wevera

      Let’s say you are an elderly shut-in suffering from partial stroke related paralysis.  You don’t have a car, and your kids live across country.  Voting is going to be quite a challenge.   If you add getting a state accepted pkoto ID to this list of challenges, this individual might just give up on voting.

      Besides, it really has nothing to do with ease of aquisition.  The real question is the motivation behind making voting for some citizens more difficult.  You seem to have trust issues, so please turn your suspicious mind toward the republicans.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Considering the extreme rarity of actual fraud, the motivation is obvious to anyone without ideological blinders. This is a solution without a problem – except for the “problem” of the election going against the oligarchs.

      • mmaaaxx

         You may look at the motivations of the people presenting the law, I try to look at the core of the issue and it’s merits and I believe that we need accountability at this level. If you call doubting the political parties “trust issues”, I’d have to say that I think my trust meter is working just fine ;D

        Is this really about paralyzed shut ins with brain damage? no, it’s about the fact that you think the results will not work great for your favorite candidate. I’m sorry for you.

        • Shag_Wevera

          It is about achieving the highest possible level of voter participation.

          ps  I never said brain damaged!

          • mmaaaxx

             Then just force everyone to vote…twice even! Actually, the goal is not highest participation, it’s a balance between eliminating fraud and making it as easy as possible to vote. You can have 100% free for all and increase participation a few points, but I prefer a bit more security in the form of some ID, which most people that vote have already.

            PS. a stroke is a form of brain damage.

          • Shag_Wevera

            I actally like the requirement to vote, although I know it won’t happen in America.

  • mmaaaxx

     Maybe we should also not require driver’s licenses because it might be harder for minorities to get them…Hogwash! there is a reason for ID’s and verification!!

    • Shag_Wevera

      Voting is a right, driving is a priviledge.  Apples and oranges, dude. 

      • mmaaaxx

        Ha, well, you can try to discriminate between rights and privilege, but fundamentally they are the same…they are activities that are protected by the state, but have some barrier to entry (you must be a citizen to vote!). All I was saying is the the motivations of the lawmakers are irrelevant and since you seem to be coming from the left, this might turn around and bite the Repubs in the backside since soooo many republican voters are old and poor (although more often white). One should not make policy in such a political manner, but based on some principle and the one that I accept is that we need to verify that the people voting have that right. The laws can certainly go to far in requiring too much verification, but we should all be able to agree that some verification is necessary.

        • Shag_Wevera

          What makes my reply to your post partisan from the left?

          • mmaaaxx

             mostly that you told me to be more suspicious towards Republicans.

  • Gregg Smith

    I’ll try again. I asked: How do voter ID laws make it harder for blacks to vote? The charge is the laws are racist. Commenters Gonkers and Jeffe are making the argument the targeting of the poor disproportionately affects blacks. Hence, the laws are racist. Gonkers even made up some numbers for us as he likes to do. The numbers don’t hold up. It’s a false premise based on a pre-conceived notion. Feel free to check my numbers, I’m speaking in general terms. They are looking at the wrong numbers. in 2011 the poverty rate for blacks was 27% and 9.9% for whites. There are roughly and 39 million blacks in America and 223.5 million whites. 27% of 39 million is about 10.5 million. 9.9% of 223.5 is a little over 22 million. Simple math tells us there are over twice as many whites living in poverty than blacks. Targeting the poor targets twice as many whites as blacks. So if we accept voter ID laws target the poor (I don’t… later) then it may be technically true it makes it harder for blacks to vote but it is worse for whites. How is that racist?
     

    • Shag_Wevera

      Why take the chance on making voting more difficult if vote fraud isn’t an established problem?  Solution searching for a problem, or naked partisanship?

      • gonkers

        As I wrote elsewhere, in a democratic society pushing for laws that benefit special interests have to be repackaged as benefiting us all… or there for some noble reason. 

        Like with the Social Security scare campaign, the GOP has been scaring their base about alleged voter fraud for a decade. It’s the only pretense the GOP can use to  make Democratic voter suppression seem respectable.

         

    • gonkers

      Your question was already answered. You think reposting it will keep your bogus issue in the limelight?

      Ya, you probably do.

      BTW you’re being dishonest again. I did not make up any numbers. I gave some examples of how voter suppression works in theory. When I post numbers I ALWAYS POST THE SOURCE… and if there’s no source HOW I DERIVED THEM.

      So please take your baseless accusations elsewhere. You want made up numbers? Go find your friend Moda who routinely made up numbers, NEVER had a source and refused to use real numbers even after he was corrected. THAT you approved of.

      • Gregg Smith

        No, my question was not answered. Your numbers don’t add up. Targeting the poor affects a disproportionate number of whites. I showed that. 

        • gonkers

          See above. You didn’t “prove” anything.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      LOL, a party that is terrified about demographics becomes obsessed with fixing a non-existent problem and you’re not even slightly suspicious? Would you like me to set you up with a great investment opportunity in Nigeria?

    • jefe68

      Gregg for a guy who does not like people putting words into your mouth you seem to a lot of it. I never said a damn thing about poor folks being predominantly black and you know it. You seem to be making a big deal out the African American population and not any of the other demographics presented by my comments. Wonder why.

      For the last time, these laws are aimed at people who will mostly, be voting for Democrats and president Obama in the general election, it’s clear that’s the GOP agenda by making this a big deal in THIS election.
      And yes targeting the poor does disenfranchise more white folk than black. The other thing is more poor people across the board tend not to vote, so one could argue that by doing this kind of draconian measure one is making it even harder for the millions of people who may not have drivers licenses, are disabled and are vets. Remember that in some states you can’t even use the Veterans ID cards.

      What does not hold up is your messed up right wing act, which is really beyond the pale of decency.  

      • Gregg Smith

        I confused you with John in Amhearst (way down the page who was commenting at the same time) who along with Gonkers wrote the disproportionate number of blacks answered my question. My apologies. But gee wiz, at least they had an argument, faulty as it was, you got nothing. You said “black” you did not say “Democrat”. What is it about poor black people, specifically, that makes them targets? It sure ins’t that a disproportionate number of them are poor.

      • Gregg Smith

        Wasn’t it you (just asking) who pointed out on the 47% board that the poor states were red? Someone did. I haven’t looked up the numbers but are you claiming poor means Democrat?

    • JGC

      I suppose in these sheer numbers, yes, there are twice as many whites in poverty as there are blacks.  But here is another way of looking at it:  blacks are already a minority, and if 27% are in poverty and that makes difficulties in voting, we are again marginalizing their proportional voice in government on top of their minority status.  Add to that the disenfranchisement due to criminal records (even if the crimes are misdemeanors in certain states, and there will be overlap in the poverty/criminal record figures, I understand that) now we have further reduced their representation because in many areas minorities are singled out for particular police observation – even non-police observation, just ask Trevon Martin…oops, we can’t… Here is yet another way of looking at it…nah, I’m not going to go there… unless somebody begs me…possibly too inflammatory…I’m going to rest my case here, at least until another day…

      • Ray in VT

        Go ahead and go there.  What the hell, you only live once.

        • JGC

          Cliffhanger…

          • Ray in VT

            Come on, don’t do that to me.  Star Trek TNG did that every season for 3 or 4 years.  The wait over the summer was agonizing.  What will happen when Riker fires on the Borg cube?

      • Gregg Smith

        Oh the tangents are ripe for the picking. I think the numbers show targeting the poor is a horrible way for a card carrying racist to suppress the votes of blacks. I believe to think otherwise requires views that are racist. That’s why I get all the hate and no answers. Any answer will show that. Yours notwithstanding, I already gave it it’s props.

        But I do want to make a point about Zimmerman. I can understand why some would have the knee-jerk reaction he was a racist. Fine. Somehow the projections went straight to if you are a racist then you are a stalking murderer. I don’t want to excuse racism but they are not the same. A white can hate blacks and a black can hate whites, to the pit of their souls with every fiber of their beings and never for a minute even contemplate murder. The hideous equivalence was made with astonishing ease. I’ve been wanting to say that, thanks for reminding me.

      • gonkers

         Please don’t fall for Gregg’s bogus “national” numbers. See above for STATE racial/poverty breakdowns.

    • gonkers

      What do national number have to do with STATE based voter ID laws? And let’s be clear that your attempt to just ask for proof of Blacks being discriminated against is a ploy to not discuss whether the GOP is also trying to suppress the HISPANIC vote.

      Remember the game here isn’t that don’t suppress some GOP voters in the process. In a game where no one cares about how few vote… only who wins an election, as long as more likely DEMOCRATIC votes are suppressed than GOP votes, the GOP still improves their likelihood of winning.

      In a state like Texas there are 2.5x the number of poor Blacks and Hispanics than poor Whites… about 25 million vs 10 million.

      http://www.laits.utexas.edu/txp_media/html/pov/features/texas_group/slide3.gif

  • Shag_Wevera

    If ALL voter ID laws were passed and ratified which of the following numbers would be greater?

    a)  Fraudulent votes prevented

    b)  Citizens prevented from voting

    I think if the answer is b, these laws are a bad idea. 

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      How many citizens are prevented from flying?

      Answer: None.

      Show your ID and move on.

      • Steve__T

         You can’t get on an airplane twice and hold more than one seat.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       If the Italians can show photo id to vote then we can too.

      • Steve__T

         WE are not in Rome.

  • gonkers

    Paul Weyrich, a GOP strategist who helped start the Heritage Foundation and ALEC was quite clear on the reason for voter suppression.

    “Our leverage in the elections, quite candidly, goes up as the voting populace goes down”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GBAsFwPglw

  • Mike_Card

    Voter ID is one grape in the vineyard of voter fraud:  it addresses only voter impersonation at polling places, which is a vanishingly small fraction.  Far more voter fraud is perpetrated AGAINST voters than BY them–start with the Supreme Court and work back to the individual voter.

    • Ray in VT

      My wife was watching Copper on BBC America, and in addition to getting in a mention of the St. Albans Raid, they showed some scenes of old timey voter fraud set in 1864, replete with costume changes and fake facial hair.

      • Shag_Wevera

        …and a soundtrack of old-time piano music!

      • Mike_Card

        I love it!  Of course, the photo ID would be the easiest part to forge.

        • Ray in VT

          If only one had had to produce a
          daguerreotype to vote right from the beginning then we could have avoided this whole thing.

  • gonkers

    Political partisans favor party over principle.  So they instinctively know what benefits their party and what hurts the other side. Give that ideological filter, we know our conservative friends here will buy any pretense the GOP comes up with to suppress the Democratic vote. They’ve already drank the Orwellian Right Kool Aid.

    Diehard GOPers will only see voter suppression for what it is if Dems tried to limit the voting rights of a solid GOP voting block.

    This isn’t the best example, but what if there was proposal that gun IDs were not acceptable for voting? THEN we’d hear the howls form the Right that rural gun owners that don’t drive can’t make it to town to get an acceptable ID… that those damn Dems were trying to suppress the GOP vote… and in that case they’d be correct.

    It’s unfortunate that their ideological blinders blind those on the Right to all the dirty tricks the GOP is up to.

    • gonkers

      I should add that in our system it doesn’t
      matter if 100% of the voting age population votes… or 10%. All that matters is those who actually manage to vote… or more precisely, those whose
      votes are actually counted.

      Once someone gets past the troublesome idea
      that expanding voter rolls is inherently desirable… the most cynical soon
      realize what the racist deep South did long ago: democracy is an obstacle to power.

      The way to power is to win elections. And the easiest way to win elections is to get the base out to vote and to suppress the other side. No one cares about the stories of those deprived of the vote.

      And this explains why Democrats seem to always want to expand the vote while the Right is fearful of the vote.

      So what do they fear?

  • Linda Wilson

    I’m a Democrat, and I’d like to see voter ID required at both the Registrar and the polls.  After the Bush-Gore election, in fact, I’d like to see UN monitors at our polls.

    • gonkers

      The problem in Florida wasn’t voter fraud. It was the Electoral Collage. It’s just another voter weighting/dilution scheme that allowed every ONE vote in Bush’s Florida lead weigh as much as 1000 votes in Gore’s national lead in deciding the outcome. Such vote weighting is ILLEGAL on every other level of government except the federal level.

      What the Supreme Court did was despicable. But by preventing the recount they let the EC, that anti-democratic abomination, do its dirty work. Where else in the democratic world can a candidate REJECTED by the People be imposed on the nation?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      In the ’60s, “That Was the Week That Was” satirized the story that UN paratroopers were preparing a mission to drop into the South in the US to monitor and assure free elections. (I didn’t see that show at the time, but I may be older than you.)

      Nice to see some things never change!

  • Kiep99

    It’s getting the support documents for the photo ID that are expensive. 

    If you were born in Michigan & need to get a copy of your birth certificate from the State Vital Records office & you order online (even from a one-time connection at an internet cafe), privatization (outsourcing) of the process makes that a $60 transaction with mandatory next day FedEx delivery.

    If the documents you wantare needed to get your state’s photo ID, that becomes a whopping poll tax for the poor, elderly & students.

    +the photo ID augments the voter ID mailed from the local board of election by a form that requires a signature on an affidavit warning of the civil/criminal penalties of voting via false personal data.

    Why aren’t the photo machines @ board of election offices?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Short answer: I’m betting the new Mich gov has some friends in the business of “voter (sic) registration (sic) business”.

      Long answer (which you know, but can’t be said enough) is that the goal is to put obstacles in the way of voting. If they wanted to do this properly, those state leges and govs would have done this properly.

      Any similarity to every abortion restriction that Teabaggers have enacted with a vengeance is incredibly uncoincidental.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1631904174 Peter Newport

    Here’s what I think is the grossest example of voter fraud ever perpetrated: the 2000 per curiam Bush v. Gore decision by the US Supreme Court which effectively stole the election for Bush. 

    • Gregg Smith

      Bush won Florida. They’ve counted the votes a thousand times. He still won. The rogue court was the Florida Supreme Court. The SCOTUS said so by a vote of 7-2.

      • gonkers

        Aren’t you one of those “states rights” conservatives?

        And when were the votes recounted “a thousand times”? Some 175,000 votes were never counted:

        https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/recount/12METH.html

        My understanding was the later recounts show Gore to have won. Even if not, since I believe ALL citizens are equal, I denounce all parts of the federal government that give some citizens a bigger vote than others which is why I denounce vote weighting/dilution schemes like the Electoral College.

        Care to join me in this?

        Didn’t think so.

        • Gregg Smith

          When? After the election by every left wing organization under the sun. And no, they didn’t show Gore won. Not one. The closest they came was, “if ALL the illegal votes (hanging, dimpled and otherwise molested chads as predetermined by Democrats) were counted for Gore (highly unlikely in the best case scenario) then he might have won”.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Don’t forget the media ‘leaked’ exit polls that Gore had won big around noon to suppress the vote in the panhandle.  It wouldn’t have been close if those depressed voters hadn’t stayed home.

  • Pingback: Impact of Voter ID Laws in Upcoming Election | Every State Votes Different

  • Hubba

    I’d like to see you do a show on the Diebold voting machines, including the role they appear to have played in the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections.

    Thom Hartmann’s book, We the People, and his articles on Commondreams.org contain valuable information on this topic.

    • StilllHere

      How about 2008?  Rampant election fraud is the only explanation for the outcome.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Another right-winger who can’t deal with the fact that McCain/Palin got 45.whatever% of the vote.

        Keep classing up this place, bub.

        • StilllHere

          Allegations of fraud were widespread but the Dem controlled DOJ squashed investigating them as soon as Hussein took power.  You can have your own opinions but not your own facts.  

          • Steve__T

            Rotflmao you make that joke up all by yourself?

          • StilllHere

            You’d have to be living under a rock not to be aware of this. 

      • gonkers

         I’m sure in your mind you believe that the GOP… was in NO way discredited when Bush destroyed the economy. The election of a Democrat MUST be due to fraud.

  • jdewey42

    I find it interesting that people don’t object to having to show a photo id to buy a 6-pack of beer, but they do object to having to show the same proof of identification when they are voting to select the most powerful person in the world.  I guess it is just a matter of priorities.

    • rcampbel

      People in their 90′s and those in nursing homes don’t buy 6-packs of beer but they do want to vote.

    • JGC

      But maybe there are not a lot of 85-year-old people needing ID to go out and get a 6-pack of beer (except perhaps in my family…) 

    • jefe68

      That’s a meme is there ever was one.
      If the we, as a nation want a national identity card, which is what this seems to be leading too, then lets have one.
      As for the timing of voter ID laws that are mostly being done in Red and swing states, that’s the issue. Why do this a few months before a major election? Why not when the states are not having elections and the general is not on so there is time to implement it. This is crux of this in my view, the timing.

  • Andrew_MN

    I don’t see why we can’t just dip our fingers in ink after voting and make this entire argument moot. 

    • gonkers

       You’re falling for the bogus pretense for these voter ID laws: that there’s rampant voter fraud out there.

      Of more interest… yet the GOP remains silent about this… is the question of ELECTION FRAUD… ballot box stuffing, hacking voting machines, etc. We saw from a GOP run caucus in Iowa that Romney appeared to win the strawpoll. It was not discovered for a week or so that Romney LOST to Santorum. By then the damage was done to Santorum. 

  • elinsky

    Tom. I wonder if you would do a show on ALEC (the American Legislative Exchange Council) – maybe you have done this already and I missed it.  This body is made up of state legislators (mostly Republican) and private sector folks (mostly large corporations and lobbyists) who meet and draft model bills that are then taken by the legislators to their states and voted on in the respective state legislatures.  The voted ID bills/laws came from ALEC.  Rather than discuss the pros and cons of whether we should have IDs, I believe we need to look at the agenda behind the scenes of what ALEC is up to.  Bill Moyers did a spectacular documentary on ALEC on his show aired on WGBH 2 on this past Sunday.  We need to hear lots more about this group and their secrecy.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      The first rule about ALEC is “Don’t talk about ALEC”.

      ALEC’s pursuits are to be done in private. Don’t harsh their buzz, man. Seriously, it’s a textbook case of the axiom that “a good idea seldom needs to be lied about”.

  • Gregg Smith

    How are voter ID laws racist? If it’s so axiomatic why can’t anyone answer the question?

    • gonkers

      Your question was already answered. You think reposting and reposting and reposting it will keep your bogus issue in the limelight?

      Of COURSE you do!

      • StilllHere

        You can’t answer it.  So pathetic.  You post a bunch of garbage that has nothing to do with the question and hope people won’t even try to wade through it.

        • gonkers

          You’ve been reduced to personal insults.  

          I know a concession when I read one.

          • StilllHere

            It’s not personal.  It’s your posts that are garbage; you are a beautiful human being, I’m sure.

    • gonkers

      So are you DENYING that there have EVER been voter suppression laws that appear racially neutral but were designed to target racial minorities?

      Are you DENYING that if Black support for Obama is in the 90%s, that the GOP has NO motive for trying to suppress the Black vote?

      Are you DENYING that Federal Court rulings have struck down Voter ID laws like in Texas BECAUSE THEY WERE FOUND TO TARGET MINORITIES? From that ruling:

      “Moreover, uncontested record evidence conclusively shows that the implicit costs of obtaining SB 14-qualifying ID will fall most heavily on the poor and that a disproportionately high percentage of African Americans and Hispanics in Texas live in poverty. We therefore conclude that SB 14 is likely to lead to “retrogression in the position of racial minorities with respect to their effective Case 1:12-cv-00128-RMC-DST-RLW Document 340 Filed 08/30/12 Page 54 of exercise of the electoral franchise.”

      It’s time you got your mind out of the Rush Limbaugh gutter and dealt with reality. Are you up to that?

      Didn’t think so.

    • jefe68

      Florida residents erroneously
      subjected to a Republican-led effort to purge noncitizens from
      voter rolls said they’re furious, and several promised to vote
      against the party’s presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, as a
      result.
      In interviews with 35 of the 2,625 people the state moved
      to prevent from voting, all but two said they’re U.S. citizens,
      with about a third identifying themselves as Republicans and
      another third as Democrats. They included a Cuba-born physician,
      a U.S. Army soldier who served in Afghanistan, an entomologist
      originally from Canada and a taxi driver from Haiti.

      Excerpt from: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-02/voter-purge-over-citizen-status-sours-floridians-on-republicans

      In an another go at this form of voter suppression which targeted mostly people with Hispanic surnames the only person the found of the tens of thousands they had looked was a Canadian citizen who had actually committed voter fraud The man also had used false identification to purchase firearms. 

      • Gregg Smith

        You are talking about purging the rolls not requiring voter ID. How doe requiring voter ID disproportionately affect blacks.

        • StilllHere

          Don’t waste your time with this guy.  He is a trollbot of the worst kind.

        • gonkers

          Why not actually READ some of the goddamn court rulings AGAINST these voter ID laws instead of parroting whatever Rush says! 

        • jefe68

          Are you really this obtuse? It’s coming from the same right wing GOP ideology that has put the voter ID laws into effect.
          The entire game plan here is voter suppression and intimidation.

          I’m not sure if it’s worth engaging in responding, because you seem to have some serious comprehension issues.

        • StilllHere

          No one has an answer to your question, so they’re trying the usual duck ‘n obscure tactic.

  • Moby10

    The voter ID bills began after
    ALEC drafted the model legislation in 2009. 
    Perhaps this was in response to the ‘alarming’ amount of people who came
    out to vote for Obama in 2008 and who would presumably not support the
    corporatized agenda being pushed by ALEC. 
    The Republicans then won many state legislatures in the mid-term
    elections of 2010 and introduced ALEC inspired voter ID bills.  It’s my opinion  that ALEC went too far in pushing their corporate
    agenda and has now awoken a sleeping giant – the American public.  

  • gonkers

    Gregg is trying to make a case that if there are more poor whites nationally than poor Blacks, then Voter ID laws can NOT be racially motivated. His refusal to include poor Hispanics calls into question his motives in his repeated questioning only about Blacks.

    First: Voter ID laws are NOT NATIONAL. They are state by state. Voter suppression laws like literacy test and poll taxes, that target racial minorities have ALWAYS seemed race neutral on their face. It’s this plausible deniablity that Gregg desperately clings to.

    But such a law was ALREADY PROVEN to have a disproportionate racial impact in Texas and was struck down.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/414721/tx-opinion.pdf

    So how can such Voter ID laws target racial minorities? Like with the poll taxes of old… there’s a direct correlation between poverty and ability to pay a poll tax or now for a voter ID.

    In the game of voter suppression it doesn’t matter if the GOP ends up suppressing some of its own vote. What matters is suppressing more of the Democratic vote. But in the case of Texas the poverty rate and numbers are hardly race neutral.

    I found a better source than the one I cited before.

    http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=45&ind=14

    3,661,500  poor Hispanics

    918,600 +  poor Blacks

    ————————–
    4,580,100 =  poor racial minorities
     
    1,270,200 ÷  poor Whites

    ————————–

    3.605810108644308 =

    While some may not be citizens or even adults, we can see that any Voter ID law that requires someone to pay to get an ID might affect more racial minorities up to 3.6 times more than poor whites.

    • gonkers

      If we look at Mississippi… another state with a long history of voter suppression which is trying to pass a Voter ID law

      We see that there are 40% more poor Blacks than poor whites.

      http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=26&ind=14

      Again, is this a perfect measure. Of course not. But it does nullify Gregg’s attempt to “prove” that STATE Voter ID laws can not be targeting racial minorities using NATIONAL numbers.

    • gonkers

       If we look at Louisiana, another state with Voter ID laws, we see there are 45% more poor Blacks than Whites.

      http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=20&ind=14

       

    • gonkers

       If we look at Georgia… another state with Voter ID laws… there are 58% more poor Blacks and Hispanics number than poor Whites.

      http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=12&ind=14

      AGAIN, Gregg’s national numbers are meaningless when looking at states. It’s like trying to “prove” everyone in the US makes $100k because that’s an average. (I made that number up just as an example.)

    • gonkers

       If we look at Arizona, another state with Voter ID laws, there are 89% more poor Blacks and Hispanics than poor whites.

      http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=4&ind=14

      • Gregg Smith

        Dude, there are over 8 times as many latinos than blacks in Arizona. I did’t say squat about latinos. 

        • gonkers

          I know you left Latinos out in order to make a bogus point about there being more poor whites nationally.

          The GOP is not trying to suppress the vote of Blacks or Latinos… or Students because they’re Black, Latinos, or students. They are trying to suppress those groups BECAUSE THEY’RE MORE LIKELY TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC.

          THAT’S THE ISSUE HERE… not your red herring.

    • gonkers

       If we look at Florida… another state with Voter ID laws there are 40% more poor Blacks and Hispanics than poor whites.

      http://www.statehealthfacts.org/profileind.jsp?rgn=11&ind=14

      • Gregg Smith

        If you want to talk about latinos then I would point out it’s even more important to require voter ID. They are the ethnic group driving the whole issue because so many are illegal. Voter ID laws do not make it harder for blacks to vote. That you all of the sudden think lumping latinos in disproves my contention about blacks then you’re dishonestly nuts. But we already knew that.

        • gonkers

          Gregg wrote: “If you want to talk about latinos then I would point out it’s even more important to require voter ID. They are the ethnic group driving the whole issue because so many are illegal.” 

          It breaks my heart that so many believe if you are Latino then you are probably an illegal alien and therefore must be targeted for Voter ID laws. It saddens me to think someone would so racist to believe Latinos more than other groups would want to commit voter fraud.

          Shame!

    • gonkers

       From the Federal Court ruling against the Texas voter ID law:

      Moreover, uncontested record evidence conclusively shows that the implicit costs of obtaining SB 14-qualifying ID will fall most heavily on the poor and that a disproportionately high percentage of African Americans and Hispanics in Texas live in poverty. We therefore conclude that SB 14 is likely to lead to “retrogression in the position of racial minorities with respect to their effective exercise of the electoral franchise.”

      https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/414721/tx-opinion.pdf

      Not that Gregg cares. He’ll be back with some other Orwellian Right spin he heard on Limbaugh’s show because as we all know, according to Gregg…

      “Rush is by far the most fair, insightful and accurate of the three (Rush, Beck and Savage) and a much better source of information than The MSM or NPR.”

    • jefe68

      History is also an area that has been left out Greggs’ assessment whether or not race is a factor in this.
      For instance this history of discrimination came up when South Carolina was taken to court over their voter ID law.
      There recent history, which dates to the mid 60′s is not good in this area and has been part of the argument used against their voter ID law.

      • gonkers

        Gregg isn’t interested in any objective assessment  of GOP actions. He’s only interested in justifying them as eternally noble.

      • gonkers

         Some states and counties are still on a DOJ watchlist since the 1965 for historical patterns of discrimination and voter suppression and must get “preclearance” before changing any voting laws.

        According to the court decision: “To obtain preclearance, Texas must demonstrate that SB 14 “neither has the purpose nor will have the effect of denying or abridging the right to vote on account of race[,] color,” or “member[ship] [in] a language minority group.”

        Texas FAILED to prove this.

        https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/414721/tx-opinion.pdf

      • Gregg Smith

        It’s 2012 and we elected a black President by a large margin. Just thought you ought to know.

        • StilllHere

          He lives in a reality of his own making, you’re nice to try to reason with him, but it’s a waste of effort.

          • gonkers

             Rewriting your own history? YOU were the one who wrote:

            “How about 2008?  Rampant election fraud is the only explanation for the outcome.”

            So which of your views should we poor readers dismiss as bullcrap?

          • StilllHere

            Racism is a non-factor and the election was mired in fraud.  See how that works.  

          • Ray in VT

            Do you have some evidence that “the election was mired in fraud”?

          • gonkers

            SH’s been listening to Radio Paranoid again. LOL

          • gonkers

             Do you have ANY evidence that racism was NOT a factor in the anti-Obama vote?

            Didn’t think so. 

          • Ray in VT

            I think that any sort of attempt to quantify whether or not race was a factor and to what extent it was if it was would be next to impossible, outside of anecdotal evidence.

            I think that racism still exists, although, hopefully to a lesser extent today than in years past, but I still think that there is plenty of prejudice.  I know some prejudiced people who voted for Obama, but I don’t know any actual hard core racists, except for that one guy who doesn’t think that segregation was so bad.

            There are still Skinheads, the Aryan Nation, Christian Identity and the Klan (which one of my former bosses, who lived for years in the Carolinas after getting out of the Corps, said has way more followers still than the public generally knows about, given his experience hanging out in a variety of bars and dives down there back in the mid 1990s), and it is hard to imagine any follower of any of those groups voting for Obama, but most actual racists aren’t really going to come right out and announce that sort of thing on the street corner or to the press (and who would really cover them anyways).

        • gonkers

          What a ridiculous argument.

          Not EVERYONE voted for Obama. Just because he was elected hardly proves racism in the US has suddenly disappeared.

          • Gregg Smith

            And it’s still 1962, right?

          • jefe68

            Apparently in your mind it is.

          • Ray in VT

            http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_SouthernSwing_312.pdf

            There’s some evidence from this poll that there’s certainly a decent share of the Alabama population that would be more at home in 1962 or 1922 than in 2012.  Check out the numbers who don’t believe in evolution or interracial marriage.

            Old habits can die hard, and the hatreds and bigotries that fueled the “massive resistance” to the Civil Rights Movement although greatly diminished still live in the hearts of some, although hopefully that is less true with the younger generations.  The older dogs aren’t terribly likely to change their habits.

          • gonkers

            Is that the best you can do is simple minded black & white thinking? So you’re claiming Obama’s election PROVES there’s no racism in the US?

            My feeling is Obama won despite being Black. He won because he ran a good campaign but also because the GOP had destroyed the economy, McCain was a weak candidate, and he chose an idiot for VP.

            Obama’s election didn’t magically negate it. Racism is alive and well in the US now as it was in 2008. 1962 still lives in the hearts of many Americans.

          • Ray in VT

            I expressed much the same sentiment.  I was shocked earlier this year when a guy that I know from central Virginia told me that he thought that segregation wasn’t such a bad deal for black people.  That’s not making the issue emotional.  That’s real life racism alive and well in the 21st century.

        • jefe68

          The great white hope hath spoken.
          Wow, you are some piece of work.
          The inanity of your comment and all the other ones you have been posting is quite amazing in it’s small mindedness, lack of historical context, as well as showing a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be other than white or a male in our society. You are really seem to spend a lot of time thinking about this and yet it comes across as so much claptrap.

    • Gregg Smith

      “…refusal to include poor Hispanics…”

      BWAHAHAHAHAHA! O yea I refused. If you target the poor you affect far more whites than any other group. Your racist self is assumes blacks are poor because they are inferior. That’s sick.

      Requiring ID to vote is a no brainer and in no way racist.

      • Ray in VT

        The fact is that higher percentages of minorities are poor than whites, and in some, if not most or all, of the states that have passed voter ID laws even the absolute numbers are higher.  The Brennan Center says that minority citizens are less likely to have the relevant documents, and given that, then yes, minorities would be disproportionately affected.

        Gonkers is arguing based upon numbers and combining it with the position advanced by Brennan.  Gonkers has not made a claim as to why certain groups are or are more likely to be poor.  The only suggestion that I have seen here that blacks are poor because they are inferior is in your post.  What is your basis for alleging that Gonkers is racist?

        Now, the suggestion that people of African descent are poor, lazy, and mentally inferior is a claim that was advanced by Southern conservatives from Colonial times up at least through the end of Civil Rights Era.  That horrible past seems to still be a weight around the neck of the region down to the present day.

        I would go for a national voter ID, but many, including the federal government since the Voting Rights Act of 1965 has shown a lack of confidence, based upon ample historical evidence, that the several states that largely made up the Confederacy, and places in a few other states, are either unwilling or unable to protect the rights of all of its citizens.  I’m sure that there was noting in the old poll taxes or literacy tests that specifically said that their purpose was to keep blacks from voting, but that was most certainly their intent and their effect.

        • Gregg Smith

          Only when you say “minorities” not when you say “black”. The laws are said to be racist against blacks. I don’t buy it.

          • Ray in VT

            The African American population is still likely to be disproportionally affected due to the relatively higher rates of poverty in that community.  Given the long history of racism and voter discrimination in many of the states in question, many people smell a rat, and I don’t blame them one bit. Many see a good reason behind the fact that states with these histories of discrimination have to jump through extra hurdles in order to make changes to their election systems, and I definitely count myself among them.

          • jefe68

            The voting ID laws are discriminating towards minorities, the elderly and students. Happy now oh great white hope?

          • gonkers

             Sorry Gregg… but BY YOUR OWN STANDARD those laws can’t be racist if they affect more whites than minorities.

            You wrote elsewhere:

            So if we accept voter ID laws target the poor (I don’t… later)
            then it may be technically true it makes it harder for blacks to vote
            but it is worse for whites. How is that racist?”

            But your argument also includes the possibility the laws CAN be racist when they DO affect racial minorities more than whites.

            You thought playing with NATIONAL numbers could “prove” those Voter ID laws were not racist. But as I proved above in at least 6 STATES there ARE more poor racial minorities (Blacks and Latinos) than poor Whites. 

          • gonkers

             Gregg… you’re setting up your own red herring and tearing it down and declaring victory.

            I don’t know ANYONE who says these GOP voter ID laws ONLY target Blacks.

            They target groups more likely to vote Democratic and that INCLUDES Black Americans but also Hispanics, students, and the elderly.

            I won’t hold my breath waiting for you to finally get it. I know you NEED these red herrings to argue against.

      • gonkers

        Of COURSE you confined your reposting of your repostings just to Black voters… because then you could make your “more poor whites” argument.

        But that argument is laughable because WE DON’T HAVE NATIONAL ELECTIONS. We have STATE BASED elections and these clever new voter suppression laws just have to suppress enough Democratic votes in SWING STATES to throw the election to Romney. And the GOP isn’t just worried about Black support for Obama but Hispanic support which according to Fox was 60% for Obama and only 30% for Romney.

        http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/2012/09/17/latinos-favor-obama-over-romney-by-two-to-one-fox-news-latino-poll-says/

        In just the states I mentioned that have or attempted to have photo voter ID… ALL have a larger number of poor minorities than poor whites there are 108 electoral votes.

        Arizona 11
        Florida 29
        Texas 38
        Mississippi 6
        Georgia 16
        Louisiania 8

        Let me guess… NO BODY in the GOP wants to get those 108 votes by hook or crook. They all just want to play fair.

        Bottom line: ALL voter suppression laws that targeted minority voters were written to seem RACE NEUTRAL. So seeing the new generation of these laws doesn’t change intent.

        Your theory is pure Rush rubbish.. and now you’ve been reduced to playing the Race Card accusing me of racism when all I’m doing is looking at a widely reported GOP efforts to suppress the vote… AND polling numbers.  

      • jefe68

        What’s sick here is how you twist the objections that some folks have into this twisted narrative that is full of it to be frank.

    • StilllHere

      Laughable, really.

      • Ray in VT

        And what do you think is laughable?  Do you contest the numbers that would suggest that ethnic minorities in Texas would be more likely to be negatively affected by the Texas law than whites, given the Brennan Center study which said that minority citizens are less likely to have the relevant documents than white citizens.

      • gonkers

         Laughable why? You presented no counter argument… only another empty claim there’s a flaw in mine. Are my numbers wrong? Do you have another source? Do they NOT counter Gregg’s claim that if there are more poor whites NATIONALLY voter ID laws can’t be racist but if there are more poor minorities IN a state then by Gregg’s standard they CAN be racist? ?

  • Gregg Smith

    It breaks my heart that so many believe if you are black then you are probably a felon, poor or in some other way inherently inferior to whites. You are certainly incapable of obtaining an ID like the poor whites can. You need whitey to babysit your poor victim self so you don’t have to obtain an ID. Only folks who think this way could come to the conclusion requiring ID to vote is targeting blacks… except for conservative blacks. They are scum, Uncle Toms. Conservative blacks aren’t poor just liberal blacks. So the logic is target the poor and you naturally will target black democrats who can’t possibly be expected to show ID.

    • gonkers

      Gregg, so you run to start a new thread to distract readers from all the
      evidence below that PROVES your claims are intellectually disingenuous.

      You’re just flailing about and I’m not sure if it’s amusing or pathetic. Rather that admit the flaw in your laughable “argument” Voter ID laws can NOT affect racial minorities disproportionately… or the underlying assumption that the GOP is eternally noble… you instead lash out and accuse me of racism for merely citing poverty numbers from a reputable site and a federal court ruling that the Texas Voter ID law WOULD disproportionately affect racial minorities… something you claim is impossible.

      Thanks for AGAIN proving my observation that you’re incapable of conceding no matter how much evidence piles up against you.

      • Gregg Smith

        I don’t think in those terms, I can’t relate. I just made a comment that’s all. You’re always prattling about having proved something. It’s creepy. You’ve proven squat.

        Do you want to talk about Latinos now? I love them. I love their work ethic. I love their emphasis on family. I love their culture. I’ll be in Puerto Moreles in Feb. I just had the opportunity to write a song for a movie. The scene required a Salsa tune and I was fortunate to have mine accepted. There is brilliant simplicity in the 2-3 clave, the confines of the Montuno piano set you free, the Tumbao bass makes your offs feel like ons, It’s awesome. I love their music. I love their celebration of life.

        Having said all that, if you are reframing the debate to say voter ID laws target and suppress the votes of latinos then I first say Duh and then say hooray. They should, especially in boarder states. And it’s not racist,it’s border security. It’s voter fraud.

        • gonkers

          What I did was simply demolish your claim:

          “Simple math tells us there are over twice as many whites living in
          poverty than blacks. Targeting the poor targets twice as many whites as
          blacks. So if we accept voter ID laws target the poor (I don’t… later)
          then it may be technically true it makes it harder for blacks to vote
          but it is worse for whites. How is that racist?”

          THERE IS NO NATIONAL VOTING… only STATE VOTING… and WITHIN some voter ID states there are more poor MINORITIES than poor whites.

          So by YOUR standard set above… IF a voting law affects more poor whites than poor minorities then it can’t be racist.

          But the other side of the coin is if those laws DO affect more poor minorities than whites… then by YOUR standard those laws are RACIST.

    • gonkers

       I’m finally catching on to the other Red Herring in your argument.

      The GOP is not trying to suppress the vote of Blacks or Latinos… or
      Students because they’re Black, Latinos, or students. There may be some racists who vote for such laws but that’s not the main intent. The GOP is trying
      to suppress those groups for POLITICAL reasons…. BECAUSE THEY’VE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS MORE LIKELY TO VOTE DEMOCRATIC.

      • gonkers

         It seems to be Gregg, himself, who conflated voter suppression laws with racism… but he did so in a way that accused others of saying it:

        “Commenters Gonkers and Jeffe are making the argument the targeting of
        the poor disproportionately affects blacks. Hence, the laws are racist.”

    • jefe68

      Has anyone ever told you that you’re a bore?
      If not, let me be the first. If so, then I can find other insults for the inanity masquerading as bad satire that deem to fill these forums with.

  • Gregg Smith

    You know what? Upon reflection I want to thank the Gonk. The Gonk has nailed it and focused the debate like a laser on the nub of the issue. I’ve been begging for someone to explain what it is about blacks that makes them suckers to voter suppression but no go. The Gonk went from Black to minorities to Hispanics to Blacks and Hispanics all in an effort to cook the numbers but he was brilliant in doing so. BTW, I prefer “Latinos” as I think it to be the more appropriate term, I mean no disrespect one way or the other.

    Here’s the thing. Voter ID laws target illegal aliens and dead people. That’s what they do. That’s what it’s about. We can issue ID’s for the elderly. We’ll mail it to them. Blacks are capable of obtaining legal identification, really… they are. Requiring ID is not racist it’s common sense. It is fair to say requiring an ID to vote is targeting illegal aliens. It’s also true (I think) that most illegals are Latino. It is loopy logic to conclude that means requiring ID to vote targets Latinos. Legal Latinos simply show ID and vote no differently than anybody else.

    Who wants illegal aliens and dead people to vote? Which party  would typically benefit? It’s a blatant disregard for the law and everything wholesome about America. Isn’t it? What we have here is a party perfectly willing to tacitly condone voter fraud (being nice) while shamelessly crying wolf over voter suppression… or something. Oh, and the black thing you guys (apologies to the reasonable) lather on top of everything is just plain nasty.

    • gonkers

      AGAIN starting a new thread to divert attention from being trounced below…

      Feel free to do what you ALWAYS do: claim the GOP always has noble motives.

      And now you’re also reposting to divert attention from your racist attitudes towards Latinos.

      It was YOU who wrote:

      If you want to talk about latinos then I would point out it’s even more important to require voter ID. They are the ethnic group driving the whole issue because so many are illegal.

      Yes Gregg… those are YOUR words.

      It breaks my heart that, YOU Gregg, believe if someone is Latino then they are probably an illegal alien and therefore MUST be targeted for Voter ID laws.

      It saddens me to think you could be so racist to
      believe Latinos more than any other group would want to break the law and commit voter fraud.

      Shame Gregg.

      • StilllHere

        Gonk, you are so incredibly ignorant of the facts and quick to throw around the racist charge as an irrational defense of that ignorance.

        “All researchers agree that the overwhelming majority of adult illegal aliens are Hispanic and that they are young with relatively few years of schooling.”

        http://www.cis.org/IllegalImmigration-ShiftingTide

        • gonkers

           Red herring Alert! I’m well aware of the demographic makeup of the vast majority of illegal aliens. That’s NOT the issue I raised. It’s the racist accusation that this group more than any other is intent on voter fraud and there must be strict voter ID laws to stop them.

          I also object to the naive claim that for millions to get such IDs in a month just so they can vote in this election poses NO real inconvenience or costs to the poor, the elderly or the disabled. I’m sure someone like Gregg will just say that’s being paternalistic to want to protect them. No, it’s just a REALITY. The Voting Rights Act is clear about placing barriers to a person’s right to vote.

          Next Gregg will be claiming that it’s paternalistic to want to protect someone at the polls from right wing thugs who will be selectively intimidating voters hoping to cut down on likely Democratic voters.

        • gonkers

           In the end the issue is VOTER SUPPRESSION… not the lame pretense used as a smokescreen to make it sound legitimate or noble. Such pretenses can be used to justify ANY voter suppression law from poll taxes to literacy tests.

          At least the Speaker of the Penn State legislature was being honest when he claimed their voter ID law would deliver Penn to Romney. It’s telling that you refuse to ask why he believed that or how he thought the Penn Voter ID law could possibly do what he claimed. It’s certainly NOT by increasing the number of GOP voters. 

          You have a right to live in a fog of Orwellian Right lies and distortions. Just don’t expect to spew them here and not be challenged. 

    • gonkers

       What’s this???? FINALLY a bit of inadvertent honesty from Gregg? He wrote above:

      “I’ve been begging for someone to explain what it is about blacks that makes them suckers to voter suppression but no go.”

      Thank you Gregg for FINALLY admitting these GOP Voter ID laws ARE an attempt at voter suppression.

      “Blacks are capable of obtaining legal identification, really… they are.”

      So your argument boils down to this: it’s OK for the GOP to pass any blatant voter suppression laws. If someone can’t get that ID in time, or the cost is too great, or they’re handicapped, a single mom with an infant, a student in school with a job, or elderly and can’t drive… we should NOT question the law. ALL the responsibility lies on the individual. Their inability to comply in time can NOT be blamed on the unnecessary law DESIGNED to inconvenience them.

      • Gregg Smith

        Just because you put it in bold does not mean you have made a point. What are you yelling about? Of course it’s up to the individual to get an ID, it ain’t rocket science. Enough with the emotional constructs, it can be free and easy. Click click. And technically yes, requiring ID to vote is suppressing the votes of illegals and dead people. But not blacks or latinos.

        • gonkers

          So you are AGAIN spewing your racist belief that Latinos MUST be targeted because there’s something about them as a group that’s prone to law breaking.

          Voter ID laws are designed to suppress the vote of all those who are unable or incapable of complying in time EVEN IF THEY HAVE A LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO VOTE.

          If the GOP didn’t believe this somehow would NOT give them an advantage in the upcoming election, the Speaker of the Penn State legislature WOULD NOT HAVE STATED THE LAW WOULD DELIVER PENN TO ROMNEY.

        • Ray in VT

          and if that ID can only be obtained at a location that is prohibitively difficult for a person to get to, or is only open for a very limited number of hours, or requires documents that some citizens, especially older ones, may not have, then that’s just their tough luck, then?  Acceptable collateral damage?

          • Gregg Smith

            No, just mail it to the elderly for free. Done. Social Security has their names and numbers. 

          • gonkers

            We’re all waiting for your inconvenience-free and no-cost “solution” for all the other groups these GOP voter ID laws target… Blacks, Latinos, and students.

          • Ray in VT

            I would include the Caucasians who are in poverty as well.  I think that if some such ID is required, then the issuing agency, which I would prefer to be the Feds, should be doing everything possible to ensure that access to the IDs should not be inconvenient, such as with the 200-250 mile drives cited in the Texas ruling.

          • gonkers

            Absolutely right.  I caught that in rereading my post and should have edited it. But at 3 hours it seemed late.

          • Ray in VT

            Yeah, I figured that you meant them too, although you were specifically addressing the issue as how it might affect poor minorities.

          • Ray in VT

            I’m not opposed to voter ID as a principle, as long as it was done carefully and well.  There is just something about being required to show an ID that does irritate me, living in a small town as I do.  I’ve been voting here for 15 years, and I’ve known a bunch of the people at the town offices and at the polls for quite a while.  I know them, and they know me.  If I went in and gave them my neighbor’s name, they’d know that I wasn’t him.  That is the reality of small town life, and I do realize that that is not how it works in many larger areas.

          • Ray in VT

            Why just the elderly?  What about the working poor?  SSA should have their info as well.

            The Texas ruling cited the difficulties presented for the poor, as well as the disabled, in traveling in excess of 200 miles to obtain an ID.  Why not bring the process to the people, with well publicized events advertized weeks or months in advance?

          • Gregg Smith

            The elderly deserve to be coddled a bit. They have real issues and many don’t drive. Why wouldn’t the working poor have a drivers license? 

          • gonkers

            I have a GREAT idea…

            Instead of getting all your information about the world from Limbaugh who you’ve declared is a better source of news than NPR… try reading some of the reports critical of these GOP voter suppression laws.

    • gonkers

      Let’s not forget Gregg that by YOUR standard if poor whites are affected more by these Voter ID laws, then they can’t be racist. You made that argument citing NATIONAL poverty numbers showing more poor whites than minority poor.

      But as I demonstrated, in at least SIX STATES that have passed photo voter ID laws, totaling some 108 electoral votes, the majority of the poor were NOT white.

      From the Federal Court ruling AGAINST the Texas Voter ID law:

      “Moreover, uncontested record evidence conclusively shows that the implicit costs of obtaining SB 14-qualifying ID will fall most heavily on the poor and that a disproportionately high percentage of African Americans and Hispanics in Texas live in poverty. We therefore conclude that SB 14 is likely to lead to “retrogression in the position of racial minorities with respect to their effective exercise of the electoral franchise.”

      So by YOUR logic, these voter ID laws in THOSE STATES ARE RACIST.

      Even I haven’t gone that far. My argument is that these GOP laws target certain groups for POLITICAL reasons: they are more likely to vote Democratic… and it doesn’t matter if they accidentally suppress some of the GOP vote in the process as long as they suppress more Democratic vote.

      If in a swing state where the Obama won by, say, 10,000 votes back in 08… if these Voter ID laws can reduce the Democratic vote by 100,000 and they accidentally reduce the GOP vote by 50,000…. there’s still a net GAIN of 50,000 GOP voters than can overtake that 10,000 vote Democratic lead from 08.

  • gonkers

    Who wants legitimately registered voters NOT to vote? Which party  would
    typically benefit? It’s a blatant disregard for the law and everything
    wholesome about America. Isn’t it? What we have here is a party
    perfectly willing to tacitly condone voter suppression (being nice) while
    shamelessly crying wolf over voter fraud… or something. 

  • gonkers

    The GOP voter registration scandal continues to grow:

    http://www.salon.com/topic/nathan_sproul/

    http://www.bradblog.com/?cat=158

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/170198/gop-quietly-hires-firm-tied-voter-fraud-scandal-work-battleground-states

    How many registered Democratic voters have had their addresses changed so when they turn up at the polls, they won’t be able to vote?

    • gonkers

      “”I don’t want everyone to vote. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.”

      Paul Weyrich co-founder of Heritage Foundation and ALEC.

      • Gregg Smith

        It’s a beautiful sentiment.

        • gonkers

          Gregg wrote in response to the Weyrich support for voter suppression:

          “It’s a beautiful sentiment.”

          THANKS Gregg! Not that it was any secret, but thanks for FINALLY admitting you’re all for voter suppression by the GOP against Democrats.

          We now have to wonder why you wasted so much time here posting, reposting, reposting reposts, DENYING this was the GOP’s strategy!

          • Gregg Smith

            Weyrich said nothing about voter suppression. He was referring to a beautiful world where the electorate is informed and fair-minded, ideology be damned. And idiots bought off with Obamaphones didn’t bother to vote.

          • gonkers

            Spin spin spin. Weyrich said NOTHING of the sort. Here’s more of his remarks that day

            “Now many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome
            — good government. They want everybody to vote. I don’t want everybody
            to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have
            been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.”

          • gonkers

            So Gregg… since you live in NC, how many people in your state get below market electricity from the TVA? How many in your state benefited from rural electrification or federal efforts to extend landlines starting back in the 30s? How about I-40? You telling me every state fully paid for its share of the interstate highway system?

            Is that the government dependence you so condemn?

            What if all us Blue State taxpayers got sick of subsidizing those who Red State parasites who chose to live in the country KNOWING private companies would never provide roads, power, or phone on their own?

          • Gregg Smith

            No. that’s not the dependence I’m talking about. Where in the world do you get this stuff? No one is calling for no government. You’d think with all the money they get they could be expected to do a little something for our infrastructure. We shouldn’t buy Volts, Solyndras and Obamaphones though.

          • gonkers

             Of course the only “dependence” you seem to object to is what? That “minority narrative” you love so much repeated endlessly on Fox, Drudge or Rush?

            And in your Free Lunch world of irresponsible tax cuts it seems to make more sense to complain about a $1.5 billion dollar program…
            but you think you’re standing up for self-dependence and fiscal sanity when you support irresponsible tax cuts that steal TRILLIONS from our kids and grandkids?

            There’s something SERIOUSLY dysfunctional about your world view… but then what can we expect when you actually believe a propagandist like Limbaugh is a better source of information than NPR.

            God help the USA when one political party goes utterly insane.

             

          • gonkers

             My Blue State of Mass gets back only 82c of every dollar sent to Washington… 2005 numbers.

            NC got $1.08 back.

            Maybe I’m sick of subsidizing YOUR state Gregg.

            http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-taxes-paid-vs-federal-spending-received-state-1981-2005

          • gonkers

             What about voters bought off with irresponsible tax cuts we can’t afford because We The People are now 16 TRILLION in debt?

            Should THESE freeloading parasites who are stealing from our kids and grand kids vote?? 

            Why do I think your answer will be that they are the ONLY people that SHOULD vote?

          • jefe68

            That’s what your read in that statement? Is there more to it because I’m not reading that as Weyrich wanting an informed electorate. If he did then why did he not say that.

            It’s becoming clear that you seem to have a comprehension issue.

          • gonkers

            Some people live in a world of partisan spin they confuse with reality. If one’s core religious belief is the Right is eternally noble if not infallible… then the ONLY way the True Believer can deal with the Weyrich quote or these Voter ID laws is to put a noble spin on them.

            That says more about their dysfunctional ideology than reality.

      • Ray in VT

        If only we got back to voting as the Founders intended, then perhaps Mr. Weyrich would be more satisfied with his and his group’s leverage.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      and

      http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/02/v-fullstory/3031585/botched-voter-registration-forms.html

      I definitely spoke too soon when I said there was essentially no vote fraud. I was only thinking of the non-existent fraud the far right is using to justify their vote suppression, not the real GoP fraud.

      “Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done”—PA House Majority Leader Mike Turazi

  • gonkers

    DISQUS BUG NOTE: I can tell when a response to another post will become a new post because the text no longer flows as I write. It just stops displaying any new text and I can’t see what else I’m typing.

  • gonkers

    Still waiting for a retraction from G that his NATIONAL numbers showing a greater number of poor Whites compared to poor minorities. He concluded that this proved Voter ID laws could NOT be racist.

    But his numbers are MEANINGLESS on the STATE level where all these Voter ID laws are actually being passed. I presented data for SIX such Voter ID states…  showing that poor minorities OUTNUMBER poor whites… as much as 3.6:1 in Texas… which by G’s own standard now PROVES a racist intent of these laws.

    While a retraction might demonstrate some integrity on his part about this matter, I fully expect more spin and diversions.

    • Gregg Smith

      I never ever said minorities, I said black. Take your medicine, you look silly.

      • gonkers

        So we’re all to take your bogus Red Herring argument that only includes poor Black Americans as an indication of of what the GOP is really up to when it comes to these voter ID laws?

        Apparently everyone but you KNOWS these laws target other groups of LIKELY Democratic voters such as Hispanics, Students, and the elderly. That’s the problem when you get your entire understanding of politics and the world from the likes of a far Right propagandist like Limbaugh.

        The only looking silly is, as usual, not I.

        • Gregg Smith

          What are you talking about? I asked how requiring ID made it harder for blacks to vote? That’s all I asked, I still haven’t gotten an answer.

          • gonkers

            PLEASE Gregggg… you’ve lost this debate. No one is going to keep falling for your phony red herring question that’s already been answered numerous times.

            That being said, we understand that you’re COMPELLED to portray all the GOP voter suppression laws as eternally noble efforts designed only to protect the sanctity of the ballot box. Despite all the evidence, in your mind, the GOP is too noble to EVER engage in voter suppression. But then that’s what happens to Dittoheads who actually believe far Right propagandists like Limbaugh are their best source of news.

            So what else should we expect of you but endless evangelism for the far Right? Which, of course, explains why you’re here 24/7 at a forum run by an NPR affiliate… a network you don’t believe even is credible compared to Limbaugh.

            Yikes!!!!

          • Gregg Smith

            The question has not been answered. Bloviate all you want, say I claimed things I didn’t, say I’m evading, reframe my point and thump your chest that you won the argument. I don’t care. I made my point and it was clear, I’m happy to let it stand and I’m happy to let your comments speak for themselves. You’re not fooling anyone.

          • gonkers

            Only one bloviating here is not I. You demand answers to a question as ridiculous as “why’s the sun square” then claim victory when the premise of the question is challenged.

            The REAL question is how are GOP voter ID laws designed to suppress the DEMOCRATIC vote.

            THAT question you avoid like the plague.

          • Gregg Smith

            “… say I claimed things I didn’t… ” -myself

            “… then claim victory …” -Gonk

            You’re the only one who did that because of some creepy need. As I said, I’ll let my comments stand on their own. If anyone cares (they don’t) then they can make up their own minds.

      • gonkers

         While I’m sure you’re determined to evade this issue, we are all STILL waiting for you to explain the following.

        You’ve claimed if there are more poor whites nationally… that somehow “proves” GOP voter ID laws can NOT be racist because they affect more Whites than people of color. I know… you want to limit the discussion to poor Blacks and exclude Hispanics to protect the GOP. But the flip side of your claim is if voter ID laws DO affect more people of color… well????

        As we know there are NO national Voter ID laws, only STATE laws!!!!!

        So in actual STATES where the number of poor people of color EXCEEDS the number of poor whites… and I presented hard numbers on SIX such states… by YOUR standard these laws ARE racist!!

        So why are you evading any questions about YOUR own beliefs?

        Gee, can it be because you obsession to hold the GOP up as eternally noble? Fine. You’re entitled to your own opinion. I’m sure there are PLENTY of far Right forums out there where you can express that sentiment and be taken seriously. I can only hope WBUR’s standards are a tad higher. 

  • JGC

    Hi! I’ve been busy the past couple of days. Have I missed anything?

    • Gregg Smith

      Nah. 

  • Gregg Smith

    Romney is scoring points in my view.

  • Gregg Smith

    Jim Lehrer is doing a good job as usual. I’m a biased SOB but it’s plain Obama is floundering… big time.

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