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Week In The News: 47 Percent, Chicago Strike, Fast And Furious

Mitt Romney and the 47 percent.  The strike ends in Chicago.  A tough judgment on “fast and furious.”   Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

President Barack Obama boards Air Force One, Thursday, Sept. 20, 2012, in Andrews Air Force Base, Md., en route to Florida. (AP)

President Barack Obama boards Air Force One, Thursday, Sept. 20, 2012, in Andrews Air Force Base, Md., en route to Florida. (AP)

Restart week for Mitt Romney’s presidential campaign. But not in a direction, it turned out, he might have hoped. A bootleg tape of Romney seeming to call half of America freeloaders was a rough way to start.

Some uncomfortable days for President Obama, too. Soft economic numbers. A turnabout on whether the Libya/Benghazi attack was terrorism.

High-profile grillings for Obama and Romney by top Latino journalists. Strike’s over in Chicago. China’s yelling at Japan. Mrs. Jesus gets a moment.

This hour, On Point: our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Ginger Gibson, reporter at Politico. 

Trudy Rubincolumnist with the Philadelphia Inquirer.

Jack BeattyOn Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

National Review “How did Fast and Furious happen? The report places most of the blame on the Phoenix Field Division of the ATF and the Arizona U.S. Attorney’s Office — both of which wanted to avoid tipping off the cartels that law enforcement was watching while they assembled a big case, and neither of which seems to have given any thought to the threat to public safety that would stem from placing 2,000 guns directly into the hands of criminals.”

New York Times “Every Tuesday and Friday morning in a dining area tucked behind Dunkin’ Donuts in the Pentagon’s main food court, a gay coffee group meets to talk, do a little business and tell a few jokes.”

Foreign Policy “The situation in East Asia is tense. Japan and China, two of the most powerful countries in the world, are locked in a bitter dispute over eight tiny, uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. The volatility of the issue — compounded by the fact that the waters around the islands are rich in natural resources – is such that it’s hard to know what will happen next. But there’s one prediction that I would already dare to make. I don’t think that this lingering feud bodes well for the fate of liberal democracy in the region.”

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  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Liberal media colludes with Axelrod to release an edited tape that they were forced to admit has 2 minutes missing after initial denials.

      The MSM joins in and spends the next 48 hours trashing Romney and finally declares Romney dead.

    Unfortunately for the media, Gallup asked the voters and voila the race is still tied:  Obama-47 Romney-47

    Oh well.

    • Michiganjf

      Romney is now down five points nationally, BEFORE his $50,000 per plate, gold-spoon-in-mouth gaffe went mainstream… that will likely cost him another 2-3 points when newer polls emerge.

      More importantly for Romney, however, is how far he is down in a few key swing states… 5-7 points… of course, that’s before the gaffe went mainstream as well.

      You and other Republicans should probably take a break from the poisonous, mind-bending echo chamber of Rightie news outlets and get a grip on reality before it’s too late for your entire party… Romney’s bringing down your entire ticket, which now has only a 21% chance of taking the Senate and putting turtle-faced Mitchie in power.

      Romney for President of Some States of America 2012!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Gallup was taken after the so called gaffe and  70% either don’t care about it or think it is a positive.

        The comment was taped in May.  The political operatives released the edited tape now.  I wonder if Axelrod paid for a seat at the fundraiser.

        Also, I am not a republican.

        • Michiganjf

          Like I say, “Pubbie,” take a break from the poison before it’s too late for you AND your Party of “Hell No!”

          Romney for President of Some States of America 2012!

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             I’m not a republican but I do believe Romney will be a great President.

            We need a leader right now.

          • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

            Really? REALLY??? By alienating 47% of America? By insulting foreigners at every opportunity on his ‘world tour’?

            He can’t do arithmetic! He can’t add, can’t subtract, can’t multiply… but he sure knows how to divide!!!

            With that kind of leadership, let’s just fire all the nukes, bend over and kiss our butts good bye. That would just get it over quick and save us a lot of wasted worrying and suffering.

          • Mouse_2012

            If we need a leader it’s surely not Romney. Most republicans didn’t even think so. Hench all the Not Romney Candidates 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            You’re not a Republican. You just searched every poll you could get your hands on to find one which didn’t embarrass the GOP candidate.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            No, I just reported from one of the two premier public daily tracking polls.  You have a problem with Gallup?

            Others have been critical of Gallup because they over sample Dems.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Funny how there are no Republicans here. Plenty of TruePrincipledConservatives who were screaming themselves hoarse about Bush’s overspending and unbalanced bugets at the time.

            Statisically speaking, every TPC in the country is in this space or is on mainstream panel shows. It’s amazing.

          • Don_B1

            It is called historical revisionism.

            See:

            http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/right-wing-media-2012-9/

            For how the “real” rightwing is unhappy with the Establishment Republicans and even Fox News. Dissension in the ranks. But it shows how and why some in the far right are supporting Romney’s 47% theory of “dependence.”

    • 2012MapApp

      It’s the state polls that matter, particularly in the swing states. The polls have been close throughout, although some erosion is being seen in Romney’s numbers as of late. 

      I don’t think the “gaffes” matter quite as much as the media portrays them, but the more important thing is Romney has to make up ground and is running short of time.Check out the state numbers every day with this app:http://itunes.apple.com/app/2012-map-presidential-election/id541868325

    • Mouse_2012

      Good thing Republicans never would omit stuff from a speech……oh wait didn’t they just to that the prior day when they attacked obama for an season 14 years ago? Yep, they also based the RNC Platform on a lie.

    • Don_B1

      Read Krugman’s column in today’s The New York Times:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/opinion/krugman-disdain-for-workers.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

      For the “real” Right Wing opinion, read:

      http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/right-wing-media-2012-9/

    • sickofthechit

       You have a lot of nerve complaining about edited tapes after the near constant running of Obama’s comments about redistributing available state resources (not income) to areas that were struggling.  They were so distorted that you now believe Obama was saying he is for redistribution of wealth (I personally am). If you have a wealthy suburb it isn’t really fair to keep all their tax dollars in their schools district while the struggling inner city school district has a declining tax base.  It’s the same system that results in many red states getting far more in federal government aid than they pay in taxes.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         I have no clue what you are talking about.  The I heard the entire Obama clip.

      • Don_B1

        Paul Krugman posts support for your position here:

        http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/notes-on-the-political-economy-of-redistribution/

        Basically this country has been “redistributing” money from the top downwards since Medicare was passed some 45 years ago.

        But for the last 30 years corporation CEOs have more than compensated with updistributing as they have extracted a larger and larger share of the productivity gains earned by workers who learned the skills to implement that productivity but were denied their share of the gains through union busting and outsourcing of their jobs.

    • Bugsyboo

       ”Liberal Media” is Right wing lie.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        No.  I just heard 4 panelists putting words in Romney’s mouth trying to distract from Obama’s failures.

        Just now they don’t mention Obama’s huge drop in the polls on foreign policy.  The ignore the poll showing Romney and Obama tied.

        Not only is it liberal media but they are Obama sycophants.

    • hennorama

      Apologies again, as this is the 4th time I’ve posted this as a reply to “Worried”:

      “Yes, maybe.  Yes, let’s solve this conspiracy to have Mr. Romney hang himself with his own words.  YES!  WHERE ARE THE 2 MINUTES?!!

      Let’s try to imagine SOME remarks that could put some context into his remarks, maybe put them in a better light:

      “You know, I just found out someone is taping this.  I’m gonna put on a little show.  I’ll say some stupid stuff that I don’t believe for the benefit of the tape, OK?  I mean, I know you all paid $50K to be here, so you do expect some entertainment, right?  I mean, the stuff I’m about to say is NOT intended to convince you guys to give me more money or anything, OK?  I don’t really believe this obviously untrue and idiotic stuff, so just bear with me for a bit, OK?

      Yeah, I’m sure you could find SOMETHING to put the crass comments Romney made into a better context.

      Good luck with that.”

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Yep. What he said before the aired tape is likely not pertinent. Now if it were 2 minutes at the END where he could POTENTIALLY be qualifying the statements in a fashion that would change the nature of the prior comments, there MIGHT be an argument he was taken out of context.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Fast and Furious?

    I wonder if there will be any discussion about the IG being blocked from interviewing key White House staffers and blocked from reviewing their emails.

    I believe the quote from the IG was White House “made it impossible” to follow lead in F&F probe.

    • Gregg Smith

      It stinks to high heaven and people are dead.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Why isn’t the top headline ‘bizarre administration behavior on mid-east crisis’.

    -Susan Rice’s strange instance on every morning show that there was no premeditation in the attack on the consulate and every protest was tied to a video no one had seen.

    -Every Jay Carney presser this week

    -No answer on security arrangements

    -No coverage in the US press about warnings of an attack

    Could it be that they just spent a week celebrating Bin Laden’s death and printing up political bumper stickers to that effect and now they are caught in a retribution attack from Al Qaeda?

    Also, since the administration refuses to sell their GM stock because the stock price is so low that the loss would exceed $25B and be an embarrassment that the new bumper sticker now reads:

    “Al Qaeda is alive and GM is half-dead”

    • sickofthechit

       Its called gathering facts before you open your pie-hole.

  • Michiganjf

    Read the headlines ‘Pubbie!

    Holder is absloved of any wrong-doing whatever in “Vast and Spurious!”

    Romney for President of Some States of America 2012!

  • Michiganjf

    Heh!

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    I have to give Univision credit for asking President Obama some tough questions and followups.

    Unfortunately, the President did not perform very well.

    - He claimed his biggest failure is not passing immigration reform.  He didn’t even try and then he went on to blame the GOP despite a solid Dem congress.

      That is his biggest failure?   Not.
    How about 23M still unemployed and 47M on food stamps.  Don’t you think that might be a bit higher on the priority list? OK, he was pandering to the audience. I get that. He is a politician after all.

    -”The most important lesson I’ve learned is that you can’t change Washington from the inside.  You can only change it from the outside”  He then goes on to site the passage of Obamacare as an example of changing from the outside.

    What?   The passage of Obamacare was the biggest insider job and disgusting example of sausage making in the history of US law making.

    Lost in translation?

  • Ed75

    President Obama is running a campaign stating that ‘If you’re interested in protecting religious freedom, I’m your man’. Every Catholic knows this is a bald lie. He is going to force Catholics to act againt their conscience in the health care law.

    We Americans can believe that someone would hedge or prevaricate, but we can’t believe someone would flat out lie, we’re good natured.

    Did you see the president’s campaign’s new version of the U.S. flag, with no stars but the Obama symbol in the top left corner?

    • NewtonWhale

      1)

      When you say “every Catholic” you might as well say “I have no idea what I’m talking about”:

      “The leaders of several large Catholic organizations that work directly on poverty, health care and education have welcomed the president’s plan as a workable compromise that has the potential to protect religious freedom while allowing employees who request it to have contraceptives covered by their insurance plans. 

      The organization that represents a majority of women’s religious orders, the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, said the Obama administration had listened to the concerns of Catholics and found a “fair and helpful way to move forward.”

      “The Rev. Gregory Lucey, president of the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities, which represents 28 institutions, said: “I really am appreciative of what the president did last Friday. I’m optimistic and hopeful, and I feel the religious liberty issue is addressed.”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/us/obama-shift-on-contraception-splits-catholics.html?_r=0 

      2)

      At least Obama just used his logo.
      Megalomaniacal Mitt used his face:

      http://mymittromneystore.com/order-mitt-romney-store/mitt-romney-product.php?mittromney=1334095755

      But for sheer narcissism nothing can top Mitt commissioning Salt Lake City Olympic pins OF HIMSELF with his face growing out of the flag and one that said “Hey Mitt, We Love You!”.

      And of course, being Mitt, he had them Made in China:

      http://www.mediaite.com/online/china-pin-drome-mitt-romney-olympic-face-pins-were-made-in-china/

      • Ed75

        It is kind of confusing, but that’s why the LCWR is being monitored by the Vatican – these are the dissident Catholic groups that you cite. The Church is suing the Administration over this issue.

      • Yar

        Ed’s definition of every catholic is every ‘presumably celibate’ old man. He worships the institutional Church of abuse.  I pray that one day he will understand compassion.

      • sickofthechit

         No way, really? Pins with his own picture? He is awesomely handsome.  Perhaps he should try his hand in hollywood, or perhaps as a centerfold….

    • Mouse_2012

      Focus on not abusing children than get back to us about what every Catholic thinks.

      The only religion being attacked in the U.S. is the Muslim one 

    • Don_B1

      Are you really bringing up the uncounted lies of Mitt Romney on EVERY issue of real impact on all Americans except the top 1%.

      And no comment on the possibility that Jesus was married or just that a woman might have been in His inner circle (an Apostle?).

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      As a lefty, I don’t sit in judgment and tell Catholics how they’ve angered their God.

      I’ll just go for the support of all Catholic voters who’ve ever gone into a real womens’ health clinic, or take real birth control.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Having an insurance policy that would cover part of the cost of having an abortion is not forcing one to have an abortion. My policy covers gynecological exams. I don’t have those parts so I don’t use that coverage.

      You might want to investigate the percentage of Catholic women who used non church sanctioned birth control while in their child bearing years.  

  • Ed75

    President Obama says that he is on the side of the poor. But when he fully implements the health care law, and the Catholic Church, the largest provider of services to the poor outside the government, has to close schools, hospitals, agencies, and clinics, the poor will be the main ones who will suffer. He’s not for the poor, as he claims.

    • Don_B1

      The Catholic Church does not HAVE to close its outreach institutions; it supported them under even more strict conditions in at least six states in the U.S., notably including the State of Georgia (and not the country!).

    • sickofthechit

      So are you saying that if the Catholic church decides to go into the business of selling cars then they should be allowed to claim it is part of their “mission” and so they shouldn’t have to comply with the new Health Care Law? Once they moved away from operating as a church and entered the health-care field they give up their status as a “church” for that part of their “operation” and are no different than any other business when it comes to compliance with the nation’s laws.

      Frankly I think it is high time that churches begin paying property taxes, and that charitable contributions are no longer tax deductible (that is a direct subsidy of religion by the government and violates the separation rules).
      Charles A. Bowsher

  • Ed75

    As the Middle East is in danger of being taken over by radical Islamists (see the pope’s speeches in Lebanon for a road for hope), the Obama administration might go down in history as the one that lost the chance of the Arab spring for democracy to the radical Islamists, which led to a larger global conflict (see Whalid Fared on ‘World Over’, EWTN).

    • adks12020

      Everything isn’t about the U.S.  If you think all the protests in the Middle East are a result of Pres. Obama you are ignorant. Pres. Obama didnt’ start the Arab Spring; the people in those countries did becuase THEY wanted to topple repressive regimes.  It’s also not the job of the U.S. to determine the fate of those countries.  How would we have felt if other countries stepped in and told us how to create our government?

      Now that there is a power vacuum showing in those countries people, some of them extremists, are trying to fill it. America is an easy target because of our checkered past in the region but I’ll be you that the majority of those protests are being incited by extremists in those countries using that stupid video and other past events to incite rage and create chaos.  That’ll make it much easier for them to take over. The vast majority of the people in those countries are not taking part in the riots/protests.

      Also, are you really citing EWTN? Really? That’s your news source? You have to be kidding.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        “Everything isn’t about the US.”?

        Surely you know that Ed’s schtick is “Everything is about the Pope”.

  • m turn

    We face today many choices in a very uncertain time for the country. We are surrounded by debt in every medium through which it can be accrued, war, unemployment and a lack of growth. We face an even greater danger, however – being defined by it as it becomes more entrenched and we raise a new generation who will only know what we shape for them today.

    It’s easy to slip into partisan rhetoric, but as many have noted publicly and around the country in houses and at dinner tables – both parties and their policies seem to be out of touch with us, and almost more importantly (somehow), with our problems.

    Ultimately, the value of these next two months, for all the media saturation of every hairbrained vapidity, is in that precipice – in that fork in the road. Hopefully, the country can wake up and remind these supposed leaders of why it is that we rest on them our dreams. Hopefully these leaders can find the courage to bring us back to a path of fiscal growth and opportunity.

    -matt

  • m turn

    As a suggestion for a future show – there is currently going on a four part bipartisan discussion (four two-hour discussions with specialists, to be held in total prior to the first presidential debate) on solving the debt crisis. It’s sponsored by the CSIS among many other groups, and is the brainchild of Sam Nunn and Pete Domenici, both retired senators. It has been shown on cspan and the lectures are available on the cspan website. Speakers include everyone from Jim Baker, to former chiefs of staff, to Alan Simpson – with the determined focus to find a way forward to dealing with the federal debt crisis, and pushing congress to act to resolve it. It is a rare and clearly framed argument which cuts through much of the obfuscation of the debate. I feel if you could get one of the people involved in that onto your show, you would have a relevant hour for just about anyone in America.

    -matt

    • jimino

      The People’s Budget is the only realistic, honest proposal to address our fiscal problems.  I would love a show on it:

      with http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-budget/

      • Mouse_2012

        The media doesn’t want to talk about it because it’s unlikely to pass, yet the media loves to talk about the Ryan plan which is unlikely to pass.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Maybe if Rudy Grijalva ran a marathon in an hour ten minutes, then free-climbed Mt. Everest in sandals, the media would care about his ideas.

          Bonus for the media: They can actually run their calculators on the People’s Budget without having to hide the results from broadcast.

        • Don_B1

          To have a (false though) chance at “balance” they had to ignore the flim-flam man’s approach to selling bridges to the middle class, and try to say it was “responsible.”

      • Brandstad

        The Ryan budget is very realistic eventhough it doesn’t do enough, it is a step in right direction

        • Bugsyboo

           Oh, please! It’s bad math and magical thinking. Lowering taxes depresses the economy, Medicare and other public benefit programs and services do NOT save money or improve services.

      • nj_v2

        That will happen right after the show about steady-state economy.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Sam Nunn, Pete Domenici, Alan Simpson, Jim Baker?

      As a lefty who cringed at what the “left wing” leader of Simpson-Bowles was given to say, I suggest we’ve heard enough Beltway experts on the subject.

      If The Evening News and the Sunday gasbags are agreeing that “Panel X is full of respected names”, I almost don’t want to hear it.

  • JONBOSTON

    For once during this election season, it would be nice if On Point focused on Obama’s failings. Such as the incident with our tortured Libyan ambassador is now honestly described as a terrorist incident despite Ambassador Rice trying to spin it otherwise on the Sunday talking shows, the Mideast burns all over, the Iran situation is conveniently ignored, Israel dissed, and China confronts our ambassador. Despite all of that Obama is on the Letterman show and fundraising with Beyonce . Not to mention the Fed had to intervene with QE3 because of the failure of Obama’s economic policies. And last but not least we need a discussion of Obama’s vision of a European welfare state and whether that will make America a more prosperous nation. Unfortunately, the results are evident in Europe.

    • Mouse_2012

      F Israel,

      Thank God he went on letterman than allow a right-wing leader of a Foriegn country to tell the U.S.(Most powerful country in the world) when to go to war.

    • Don_B1

      1) Ambassador Rice was only saying that they had no evidence of long-term planning of an attack on the Consulate at that time.

      2) Netanyahu deserved being dissed, if in fact he was; he pointedly denied it on “Meet the Press.”

      3) The Fed would NOT have been doing QE3 except that Obama’s policies were denied by Republicans in the House and Senate. The current slow recovery is only a precursor to the return to recession that full Republican policies of more austerity than the mild austerity they have imposed under Obama.

      4) The problems in Europe are NOT a result of a welfare state mentality, as shown by the strong economies in the Scandinavian and other non-euro based countries (except the U.K., which has gone off on an austerity tear to its chagrin). When you look at the causes they come down to trade imbalances and the inability of Spain, Portugal, Italy and Ireland to devalue their currencies which is the source of their loss of jobs. Greece is the one exception to that and Greece had help from American big banks (Goldman Sachs) in hiding their deficits to join the Eurozone.

  • LinRP

    I wish I had written these words, but I share them as they artfully express what I feel is the state of the Republican party today, and the hope I have that people are awakening:

    The Republican disdain for ordinary working people is never more prominently on display than when they pander for our vote. No party that respected the voters could lie so glibly and with so little concern for the consequences that will inevitably befall the hapless dupes who buy their disingenuous nonsense.

    For Republicans to prevail they must talk seniors into weakening their medical coverage and retirement security, minorities into losing ground on civil rights, gays and lesbians into accepting abuse and second class citizenship, and women into returning to a time when contraception was unavailable and back-alley abortions were their only form of “choice.” They come holding a bible and wrapped in the flag, and then proceed to desecrate everything those symbols stand for. They have been emboldened by recent victories, proud of their ability to obstruct government and happy to cause pain and dissatisfaction among the voters, hoping that it will cause them to thoughtlessly vote for change.

    There appears to be a glimmer of hope, manifest in the increasingly problematic and inept Romney campaign. People seem to be waking up to the fact that there is no place for them in a Republican future. This election will determine if ordinary people will take back their government, or if we will enter into a modern version of the Dark Ages.

    • Steve_the_Repoman

      Please attribute quotes

      • LinRP

        Right. Meant to. Oversight. The quote is by “gemli” a regular commenter in The New York Times. The quote is here is response to Paul Krugman’s editorial today.
        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/opinion/krugman-disdain-for-workers.html?hp

        • Steve_the_Repoman

          Thank you for the response, it is good to follow links and examine evidence/opinion.

          I like to know where my thoughts come from rather than accept everthing as gospel only becase it has occurred to me.

  • Mouse_2012

    Let’s Face it,

    Romney is a failure as an Presidential candidate, Not only do democrats not like him but Republicans(see all the not-romney ones). The only reason Romney is even in a close race is because Republicans hatred for Obama more than there disdain for Romney. Not even the majority of Republicans see romney as a leader or anything more than a flip flopper and when he loses it will be reported there views on Romney.

    Romney to appease the Right-wing of his party will say anything he thinks will appease the right-wing base so he brought on his camp everything/people from the Bush Administration except George Bush the 2nd. While republicans will attack obama for a 14year comment and spin away Romney’s truth gaffe was less than 6 months ago.

    • Don_B1

      While you can go too far in ascribing words said to true feelings of a politician, Romney was so much more at ease in making his statements that “the 47% will never take responsibility for their lives” does sound like something that comes from his shriveled inner core. It plays well with his high school bullying to his mastery of the tax code and its manipulation in his favor.

      See Eileen McNamara:

      http://cognoscenti.wbur.org/2012/09/19/romney-gaffe-eileen-mcnamara

      With this in mind, this is a gaffe where the truth is being told.

  • Mouse_2012

    Democrats are dishonest sometimes but republicans take it to a new level.Thanks to Fox News(Saudi Arabia is the second biggest stakeholder in News Corp) when Romney or Akin messes up they can comfortably go to Fox and Spin away there comments. Thanks to the fear of being called “liberal” the media has adopted the fake “Fair and Balance” He/she said. No matter the lie, the distortion, it will be presented as the other sides does it as well. Not only is this poor journalism because not all things are equal it enshrines corruption(since blame will be dismissed as partisan politics) 

  • Mouse_2012

    Nutty yahoo thinks he’s running for office.

    What am I talking about? So Nutty(David Gregory called him the leader of the Jews) verbal attack on 9/11 against the U.S. wasn’t enough he decided to now Run ads in support of Romney in Mainly Jewish communities in Florida  

    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/florida-election-theatrics-netanyahu-fearmongering-on-the-campaign-trail.html 

    Predictably, a clip from Netanyahu’s theatrical September 11th apocalyptic “red line” speech has been turned into a campaign ad set to ominous sounding music with dire percussion crescendos. Maybe this helps explain why the Israeli press conference was in English instead of Hebrew? 

    Me personally his actions is great for Americans in the political sense because this again shows the undue influences of Israel in american politics and since it’s so overt it’s far easier to show when politicians place an Foreign country first instead of the U.S.

  • Mouse_2012

    I think onpoint should be aware that the guy who supposely point out the bigoted muslim video has connections to Pam Geller(listed as a hate group by the Sothern Poverty Law Center) who herself recently places bigoted ads on buses in CA. and soon to be NY. 

    NPR had a great interview with Doug Saunder on his book ”
    Debunking The ‘Myth Of The Muslim Tide” in it 

    “In his new book, The Myth of the Muslim Tide, Saunders says an increasingly influential group of writers and activists believes immigration and high birth rates will make Muslims a majority in Europe in coming decades — and that their hostility to Western values makes them a threat to Western culture, democracy and security.
    Saunders argues that these fears are based on inaccurate assertions of fact, and he says the fear of Muslim immigration in the U.S. is similar to past chapters in American history about other immigrant groups.”
    Also a interesting piece of info came out as well

    Not Qualified: Exposing the Deception Behind America’s Top 25 Pseudo Experts on Islam,” was released by the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), a Muslim-American advocacy group. 

    http://www.mpac.org/publications/policy-papers/not-qualified-exposing-pseudo-experts-on-islam.php 

    • Joseph_Wisconsin

       Yes the organization run by Pam Geller just was granted the right to display those billboards on NY subway cars.  Interesting how she was able to tke advantage of the freedoms present in the US to attack those freedoms.

      • Ray in VT

        Yup.  That’s what one gets with the First Amendment.  People can use it for what they want, and the speech that needs the most protecting is unpopular speech, regardless of it’s content or value.  Like years ago when the Neo Nazis went to Skokie, and the ACLU backed them with a Jewish lawyer, which must have really galled them.  Horrible people advocating a disgusting ideology, but who ultimately have the right to be useless dirtbags.

    • Don_B1

      The NPR interview of Doug Saunders on Fresh Air is at:

      http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161168231/debunking-the-myth-of-the-muslim-tide

  • mezure

     The biggest lie about what we call entitlements are that they are another form of welfare. First, isn’t Social Security a trust fund that people pay into and therefore it is subject to the benefits of a trust fund? And if so, shouldn’t those who make statements about it being an entitlement be held to the proper legal interpretation of a trust?  Second isn’t Medicare an insurance policy program and aren’t those who pay into it entitled to the benefits of the insurance they have paid?  Both questions would never be distorted if we were talking about private trust or private insurance.  Maybe it’s time we address how the press has served to support the misinterpretation of public programs that are so well understood if they are practiced within the private sector.

    • Gregg Smith

      Exactly, and for that reason a payroll tax cut is not an income tax cut. 

      • Don_B1

        But it is a tax cut that affects mostly the 99%.

        • Gregg Smith

          Not really, only in that is called a tax. A better way too frame it would be  to call a payroll tax cut, the acceleration of the bankruptcy of Social Security. 

          • Don_B1

            It isn’t because the reduced revenue from the F.I.C.A. cut is being replaced from general revenues. It is not what I would have chosen, but given that Republicans refused to support other better ways to generate jobs, this was what was left.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_LTAJN7BFS2JZN3O2425TK4T3OU rogier

      Right on.

  • NewtonWhale

    This is the unspinnable, condescending slur that Mitt Romney hurled at 47% of Americans:

    “These are people who pay no income tax…. [M]y job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.” 

    http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161401917/weekly-standard-what-romney-meant 

    On top of the contempt and the promise to only represent the wealthiest half of the country, what makes this so unforgiveable is the fact that Mitt knew it was a lie because his own father’s life proved it wasn’t true.

    Listen to Mitt’s mother explain that George Romney spent 4 years on welfare before rising to become the CEO of American Motors:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DgB3WASwXA

    That’s right. Mitt Romney himself was the product of the government “entitlements” he  derides and wants to deny to those in need, as his Dad once was.

    He really was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

    • Gregg Smith

      Talk about spin. 

      • NewtonWhale

        That’s it?
        That’s the best you could do?
        That’s all you’ve got?

        Was even ‘I know you are but what am I’ beyond your capacity?

        • Gregg Smith

          If you are trying to argue that Romney doesn’t care about the 47% by using a quote that edits in the line, “[M]y job is not to worry about those people” then it’s a waste of time to debate you. Did you put in those dots before the money line? If you are trying to spin this into the notion Romney is against welfare, then that’s just silly. My approach to you is you are in the tank and your mind is made up so why bother. Just as Romney needn’t worry about getting the votes of the 47%.

          • NewtonWhale

            If you had followed the link that I provided (because I believe in documenting what I say) you would have seen that I did not put in the ellipsis, they were in the source material. 

            What was omitted by NPR does not change the meaning. You can verify that by watching the original video clip here:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=MU9V6eOFO38 

            I hope you do, because then you will hear the contempt in Romney’s voice as he dismisses the 47% who need help. 

            Not just people like his dad, but disabled veterans who live in wheelchairs because they fought for our country. Like this man:

            Disabled Veteran 47 Percenter: ‘I Guess I’m One Of The Leeches On The System’

            Hoskins, 67, enlisted in the Army’s elite 101st Airborne division in 1963 and saw two harrowing years of combat in Vietnam, where his reconnaissance unit was repeatedly air-dropped into the jungle behind enemy lines. Today he is disabled, suffering from diabetes and confined to a wheelchair. A month ago, his left foot was amputated due to a blood infection.

            He readily admits that he is among the 47 percent of Americans that pay no federal income taxes and rely on government assistance — a group derided as freeloaders by Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney in comments secretly recorded at a high-priced fundraiser in May.

            “I guess I’m one of the leeches on the system,” he said. “But look at me. What can I do?”

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/20/disabled-veteran-47-percent_n_1901072.html

          • Gregg Smith

            Alrighty then.

          • nj_v2

            ^ Translation: “I surrender, but can’t admit i’m an opaque fool, so i’ll just mutter my lame, useless, deflectional trademark catch phrase.”

    • William

      What is the difference between what Gov. Romney said and what Obama said about people that can’t afford medical insurance but still use the medical system? Obama said in an interview with ABC News those people that don’t buy medical insurance are “free riders” which is a code word for “dead beats, welfare mommy’s etc”…
       Gov Romney is not forcing anyone to buy food stamp insurance but Obama is forcing people to buy medical insurance. 

      • JGC

        But didn’t Mitt Romney as governor also require everyone to be all in on the Massachusetts health care plan? Is that true or not, Massachusetts people?  

      • Don_B1

        What a total distortion does is show desperation beyond bounds.

        Obama was talking about people who could afford insurance for some reason, maybe just thinking they are immortal, not buying insurance and then having an accident or contracting a serious disease where the cost of treatment is beyond their means and so, because the country has no desire to put even them “under the bus” (as these “free riders” apparently would).

        To even attempt to confuse those who don’t/can’t take the time to think about your vile mischaracterizations is despicable.

        Go to Rush Limbaugh’s blog where your distortions will be lost in the noise.

        • Gregg Smith

          Rush doesn’t have a blog.

    • JGC

      Yes, what do people here think of the hypocrisy of Mitt Romney complaining about freeloaders, when his own father George Romney was a welfare beneficiary as a refugee from Mexico, and also Paul Ryan taking Social Security benefits to attend Ayn Rand University? By their own family histories, when are people deserving of government help, and when are they not?  

  • Mouse_2012

    I also found interesting is the recent reporting on Syria, 

    Human Rights groups have put out that both the government and the FSA has been torturing and using summary execution along with major International violations. BBC reported this and had on a spokesman who would not condemn the FSA actions.  While the media takes the Human Shield line the Israeli provided for killing civilians the same Media is completely silent when it comes to Syria. While reporting that the FSA has captured a town(by force) and used a school or it’s major building for military operation, when attacked by the Syrian government it goes back to not being a FSA rebel base but residential areas and amazing enough no FSA are counted as dead but as activist/civilians killed. It’s worth pointing out the Syrian government is using the same rationale that NATO used to bomb residential areas in Libya. We have seen suicide bombing in Syria not condemn by the U.S. that if anywhere else the U.S. would be up in arms and Not only that NPR is relying on the guy who was paid for the longest by Assad’s wife (Andrew Tabler ) just so happens to now getting paid by people against the Syrian Government.

    My view is the U.S. should stay out of this and let Turkey take the Lead(Not Saudi Arabia) 

    • Don_B1

      While it is truly disappointing, it should not be surprising that rebel groups adopt the tactics of their oppressors as that is what oppression teaches. What we should and need to do is try to set the best example in contradiction to that type of oppression and show thereby that not adopting repressive tactics work better.

      This is the reason that the Bush administration’s adoption of torture techniques was abominable, not to mention counterproductive, then and now.

  • Joseph_Wisconsin

    Justifiably a lot of the attention has been focused on the remarks made by Mitt Romney in that video of him speaking before a select group of very wealthy donors to his campaign—Mitt being who he really is and feeling free to speak his mind before his sort of people—that concerned how the 47% of Americans who pay no income tax are dependent on government handouts and so will only vote for Obama.  So less attention has been focused on other things Romney had to say like:

    Romney speaking of those who say the he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, “‘Oh, you were born with a silver spoon,’ you know, ‘You never had to earn anything,’ and so forth. And, and frankly, I was born with a silver spoon, which is the greatest gift you could have, which is to get born in America. I’ll tell ya, there is — 95 percent of life is set up for you if you’re born in this country.”

    Well Mitt you are correct that you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and 95% of your success can be traced to that.  But that silver spoon was not being born in America.  It was being born to a wealthy father that paid for your primary education at an elite boarding school, paid for your undergraduate college education and graduate study at Harvard Business School, and paid for your family’s first house.  That’s a silver spoon very few Americans are born with.  It does explain Mitt why you can make such clueless statements as suggesting students who wish to attend college should “just borrow the money from their parents.”  Your whole life has been one of privilege with your only exposure to middle and lower class Americans being as your employees that you love to fire if another can be found that will work for less, and whether or not they are paid enough to afford food, shelter, and health care for their families is not something you feel you should be expected to worry about.

    I also have to comment on the Republicans attempts to use a supposedly newly uncovered video clip of Obama (recorded 14 years ago and already used in 2008 by the McCain campaign)  as a counter to try and do damage control for Romney.  This is the complete “redistribution of wealth” comment in full:

    “As we think about the policy research surrounding the issues that I just named — policy research for the working poor, broadly defined — I think that what we’re gonna have to do is somehow  resuscitate the notion that government action can be effective at all. There has been a systematic, I don’t think it’s too strong to call it a propaganda campaign, against the possibility of government action and its efficacy. And I think some of it has been deserved. Chicago Housing Authority has not been a model of good policy making. And neither necessarily have been the Chicago public schools. What that means then is that as we try to resuscitate this notion that we’re all in this thing together, leave nobody behind, we do have to be innovative in thinking how, what are the delivery systems that are actually effective and meet people where they live, and my suggestion I guess would be that the trick, and this is one of the few areas where I think there have to be technical issues that have to be dealt with as opposed to  just political issues, how do we structure government systems that pool resources and hence facilitate some redistribution, because I actually believe in redistribution, at least at a certain level to make sure that everybody’s got a shot. How do we pool resources at the same time as we decentralize delivery systems in ways that both foster competition, can work in the marketplace, and can foster innovation at the local level and can be tailored to particular communities.”

    Judge for yourself if Obama is saying government should be a thieving Robin Hood stealing from hard working people to give to people who don’t want to provide for themselves.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      I cannot find an ounce of “noblesse oblige” in Romney.

    • Don_B1

      Thank you so much!

      For those who can’t or don’t have the time, could you provide a link to facilitate their seeing the source for full belief?

  • Gregg Smith

    The administration and especially Hillary have blood on their hands. How could there be no security for Ambassador Stevens on 9/11? It’s beyond irresponsible.

    • Shag_Wevera

      Weren’t there two Marines with him when he was attacked?  How much security should he have had?  What is normal security for ambassadors in other Muslim countries?  Qatar?  Saudi Arabia?

      • Gregg Smith

        The SEALs volunteered to help the helpless. They were not assigned to Stevens. They lost their lives for the good deed. 

      • JGC

        I think they were both former Navy SEALS, privately employed to provide protection to the State Department employees.  

      • Don_B1

        The security level has been mismanaged by both parties but the efforts of Senator Jesse Helms are probably the most causative as a result of his tirades against spending by the State Department.

        Those cuts in State Department funding led to many diplomatic functions being taken over by the military, through the Department of Defense.

    • OnPointComments

      There are many questions about the embassy attacks that remain unanswered, like why was the ambassador in Benghali instead of Tripoli and not adequately guarded, why were there an insufficient number of marines protecting the embassy, and who knew about the ambassador’s trip to Benghali, but another question I’d like hear someone ask President Obama and SOS Clinton is:  terrorists show up at the embassy on the anniversary of 9/11 with heavy artillery and rocket propelled grenades shouting “We are Osama!”, and you think you’re witnessing a movie review?  Are you really that stupid?
       
       
      It’s perhaps symbolic that the new Obama campaign logo looks like the bloody hand prints of whoever was dragged from that embassy in Libya.  You’re right, the blood of the four diplomats is on Obama’s & Clinton’s hands.

      • Don_B1

        Ambassador Chris Stevens deliberately chose to use the Consulate to provide better access to the people of Benghazi with whom he was working closely to help them solve economic and political problems. He had developed a close relationship with the people in that area during the uprising against Gaddafi. The people there were horrified at the attack.

  • Mouse_2012

    Notice how F&F the Republicans go batsh@t crazy yet when the U.S. tortures, spies on it’s citizens, curve the first amendment, due-process free assassination(even teens) and expanding the White House powers to lock up american citizens without charge their rarely nowhere to be found besides joyfully voting for these violations.   

    P.S.

    The White House DOJ is pissed that it’s expansion of the NDAA is being held up in court .

    • Gregg Smith

      Are you referring to the black Muslim teenagers Obama had assassinated early in his term?

    • OnPointComments

      It was a good week for Islamic fascists. Four Americans dead and embassies attacked. The Obama administration asked YouTube to take down the movie trailer for “Innocence of Muslims.” The FBI and the U.S. Department of State have asked that the permit to air the film be pulled. The man who made the movie is brought in for law enforcement questioning. The price of murdering innocent people? Recall the first amendment to the Constitution.

      • Don_B1

        The supposed filmmaker was questioned becauae he had been, and still is I believe, on parole with the condition that he not have access to the Internet. I assume they wanted to know if he was the one who posted the film’s trailer.

  • Gregg Smith

    “You told me during an interview that you and Mr. Holder did not authorize the Fast and Furious operation that allowed 2,000 weapons from the United States into Mexico and they were in the drug trafficking [cartels'] hands,” Univision co-host Jorge Ramos asked Obama, according to a translator, during the interview. “I think that up to 100 Mexicans might have died and also American agent Brian Terry. There’s a report that 14 agents were responsible for the operation but shouldn’t the attorney general, Eric Holder, he should have known about that and if he didn’t, should you fire him?”Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/20/obama-slammed-on-fast-and-furious-in-spanish-language-tv-interview-shouldnt-you-fire-eric-holder/#ixzz276q3gFg1

    • Shag_Wevera

      You keep trying to get traction with this, but seems awfully partisan.  Mexican drug cartels with guns just doesn’t surprise folks all that much.  What do you seek?  Impeachment?  C’mon, let this stinkeroo die.

      • Gregg Smith

        If Obama was behind it then certainly impeach him. It was a reckless disregard for the Mexican government, the Constitution, the law and life.

    • OnPointComments

      And what were the first words out of President Obama’s mouth when he answered?  It’s Bush’s fault.

    • Brandstad

      Did you see this week that there is also a Fast and Furious operation in Libya?  The two killed service men that have been described as navy seals were not there to protect the ambassador but to find and retrieve heavy weapons that the US government gave to rebels who they thought were friendly to the US but turned out to be al-Qaida!

      • Gregg Smith

        Amazing.

  • Joseph_Wisconsin

    Wonderful analysis of the current Republicans, including Romney, in this piece by Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/opinion/krugman-disdain-for-workers.html

    • Gregg Smith

      Krackpot Krugman lost me on his first dishonest paragraph. I should have known better than to click the link. The guy is way too partisan to be taken seriously. How many time does he have to prove it?

      • William

        It is a toss up between Paul Krugman and Robert Reich as to which one is wrong more often. 

        • Don_B1

          Show me where and WHY Professor Krugman is wrong; I don’t think you can do it.

      • Don_B1

        You are so partisan you are totally blind to anything you don’t agree with.

        You wouldn’t take the time to think about the real implications of what Mitt Romney said and how it shows his willful ignorance of how most Americans live. You just recognized that you didn’t like where his argument was going, so you made up an excuse to falsely dismiss it.

        • Gregg Smith

          I deny the charge. That is exactly what Krugman is doing. I absolutely loved what Romney said.

          • Don_B1

            Claiming that 47% of the voting citizens are moochers? That is simply false on its face.

            See:

            http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/18/taxes-over-the-life-cycle/

            to see that while at any one time 47% (which is currently much higher than usual because of the Republican-caused Great Recession), most people do pay significant income taxes over their working lifespan, to the tune of 70% to 80%.

            Go deal with it.

    • Joseph_Wisconsin

       There’s your problem.  It would benefit you to read things outside of the right wing echo chamber.  

      Romney has been running a if I tell you what I plan to do you won’t vote for me campaign, and about that at least he is correct.  The released video parts the curtains, and the upcoming debates, if they are at all real debates, will go further. People know that America is not a business and do not want it run like Bain Capital.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Interesting idea, but I’m trying to see how it folds into my belief that Mitt Romney, CEO, has not been told “no” by anyone in a very long time, and it shows in how he communicates to people.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Obama won the Nobel prize too.  How is that working out?

  • Outside_of_the_Box

    I am against any reporting that serves to maintain the illusion of a democratic system. Obama is no different than Romney, when it comes to serving special interests and ignoring not only the interests, but the dire needs, of the people.

    • AF_Whigs

      I wish this wasn’t true, but I agree with you @Outside_of_the_Box:disqus .  I’ve come to believe that it is impossible for any politician to a high level of office without having a long list of corporate interests to which they are beholden. 

      The sad fact of our “democracy” is that money controls everything and the lower classes will have lip service paid to their interests, but we really have very little, if any, say in how the game is played.

      • Don_B1

        This campaign season has made it more obvious that campaign finance system needs drastic overhaul, making at least most of it public, with some private donations to get a candidate started.

        See Lawrence Lessig’s website for a Constitutional Convention as the leading approach to accomplish this. He has numerous YouTube videos where he discusses his approach.

    • Don_B1

      Obama has not been perfect, a growing sound economy is a need of the people. An efficient and affordable healthcare is a need of the people. Reasonable regulation of the financial sector, the toxic emissions of various industries, particularly of the fossil fuel energy sector, are needed by the people. Non-ideological judges at the Supreme Court and lower courts are a need of the people.

      Obama has been effective in putting the country on the right track to achieve these goals. Just because they have not been completely put in place due to obstruction of the Republican Party is not to say they won’t be achieved.

  • Shag_Wevera

    Humor me as I lay out a brief hypothetical.

    1.  Mitt Romney loses the election by 5 points.

    2.  Resentful conservatives blame Romney for the defeat.  They rage about him being a RINO.

    3.  The republican party moves even further to the right.

    Could it go down this way?

    • MrNutso

      A very likely scenario, because the feeding is starting already.  Frankly, in spite of the results of the primary and convention, Republicans don’t really support Romney.

      • Gregg Smith

        I am a Tea Partier who supported Newt. I liked Bachmann too. I am satisfied with Romney who has been a pleasant surprise.

        • Don_B1

          If you are serious, you need psychiatric help.

          Neither Gingrich or Bachman (nor any of the other “gang”) presented any understanding of the real problems this country faces. They would be laughed out of any meeting of world leaders. They would make Cesar Chavez look like a world statesman.

          The Chinese and Russians would have their heads for lunch.

          That is why Romney ended up with the nomination. Until the Republicans get off their “primary everyone who is not on the rightwing fringe” kick, there will not be a candidate with sufficient leadership capabilities that can both get the nomination for president and actually win the following election. If I am wrong, I fear for the country, and everyone else should too.

    • Acnestes

      Absolutely.  And of course, they’ll trot out the traditional, “we just couldn’t get our message out there”, ignoring the fact that it’s because they DID get their message out that they lost.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      “Humor” you?

      You’re not spinning a tale, it sounds like you’ve stolen their playbook. Every Republican candidate, down to dogcatcher, who has lost since Gerald Ford, has committed the sin-in-hindsight of not being conservative enough.

      Conservatism never fails with the electorate, goes the saying. It is only failed by its imperfect vessels. For example, no matter how many thousands cheered GWBush’s appearances at CPAC, once he became unpopular he was retconned into never having been a TruePrincipledConservative.

    • Don_B1

      To see why, that there is a large block of Republicans to the right of the Establishment and Fox News Republicans, read Frank Rich at New York magazine:

      http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/right-wing-media-2012-9/

  • sickofthechit

    That would be “Mrs. Christ” Tom, not “Mrs. Jesus”
    Charles A. Bowsher

  • MrNutso

    Mitt, you want people to like paying taxes?  I guess  you’ll be first in line.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       He even shorted the Mormon Church. Should have paid $2M and only paid $1.5M.

  • Brandstad

    Mitt Romney’s comments were factual so this contrived contraversy is noting more than a liberal media way to avoid talking about Obama’s failures

    • BHA_in_Vermont

      “47% think they are victims” is a fact? HALF of the voters in this country?

      I don’t think so.

      I really like his claim that he will end bi-partisanship in Washington. Sorry bud, the only the Senators and Congress(wo)men can do that. Or the voters if they vote in moderates from both parties.

      And I like how he is going to cut tax rates but pay for it by getting rid of loopholes. HELLOOOOOOO Mitt. Do the arithmetic. If you increase the taxable income and drop the rates NOTHING CHANGES.

      • Don_B1

        “Revenue neutrality!” All his proposal does is shift around those who get to be proud of paying more taxes.

        He talks one day about lowering marginal tax rates at each level (by 20%) to be a bigger tax cutter than Rick Perry, Herman Cain, etc., then says the next day that he will eliminate tax expenditures (loopholes, etc.) that will result in the revenue increase to offset the reduced revenue from the rate reductions. But in there are Medicaid cuts (think nursing home support for poor seniors) etc. which he has no details on how will add up to “neutrality.”

        He has run an ad hoc campaign with no overriding principles except to do what is necessary to “close the deal,” which seems to be all he learned as a private equity businessman.

    • Bill Bodge

      Sure many people on Social Security don’t pay taxes.  Many small businesses don’t pay taxes because of deductions.  Many home owners don’t pay taxes because of the home owner tax deduction.  50% of the wealthiest Americans paid no taxes in 2009 because of capital gains losses.   The majority of wealth and income gains have gone to the top 20% over the last 30 years.  They have used this wealth to consolidate political power and lower their tax burden.  The rich pay more taxes because that’s were all the money is.  There taxes rates have gone down but the wealth and incomes of the middle class have declined faster.

      • sickofthechit

         Something like 400 people who made more than $1 million dollars last year paid no income taxes!!!

  • AF_Whigs

    I wish for once a politician would just stand behind his/her comments.  If Mitt feels that way (which I think he does – he was speaking to his crowd, his peers) he should just stand behind it.  And I’m not saying that this is just a GOP issue, but I’m addressing the most recent instance at hand.

    • notafeminista

      Yup.  Gitmo still open for business.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Because congress wouldn’t let them be moved on to mainland USA soil.

        • Gregg Smith

          “Don’t deal in things that aren’t real. Don’t get yourself worked up about something that isn’t going to happen. We got real things to get worked up about here. But closing Gitmo isn’t going to happen. It’s not going to happen. It is not going to happen. He’s not going to close Gitmo.” -Rush Limbaugh Jan.16, 2009

  • Rory P

    Another week like the last 2 and the GOP ticket will feel
    the full impact of the Romney/Ryan clown-car. Can they unstick the accelerator
    in time? Is that the question? Six weeks is a long time in the political
    wilderness. If we believe recent history then race should tighten up some in the
    last 2 – 3 weeks. Right now it is hilarious watching GOP candidates at the
    town, state and federal levels scramble to distance themselves from the GOP
    ticket. Another week of this and funders start withdrawing support. No one
    wants to throw good money after bad…

    • JGC

      Here is a comment from Roger Simon at Politico that references the Romney/Ryan car imagery:

      The wheels are not coming off the Romney campaign.  They came off some time ago; the press is just beginning to notice.  The Romney campaign is skidding along on its axles and scraping its muffler.  Soon it will be down to the dog on the roof.

  • Bruce94

    Thanks, Mother Jones, for your promotion of the newly released GOP remake of Steven Soderbergh’s 1989 independent film classic, “Sex, Lies, and Videotape” featuring a whole new cast of characters with contemporary themes and plot twists including:

    –Mitt Romney playing himself, the Ogre, who in a stunning turnabout finds himself in front of the camera baring his soul to all and demonstrating that he’s just plain lousy at personal relationships.  Simply put, the Ogre shows he is totally incapable of connecting with nearly half the country including many hard working, responsible citizens whom he sees fit to denigrate as malingerers bent on exploiting him and his fellow country club, trust fund babies.

    –Paul Ryan in the role of the Ogre’s former college roommate and frat brother, who suddenly appears at his front doorstep after years spent on the road less traveled with an eccentric band of laissez-faire libertarians whose budget proposals violate not only the social contract of America, but also the moral teachings of his own Church as declared by the vast majority of Catholic Bishops and Nuns.

    –Clint Eastwood in a memorable ad lib performance as the drunken, senile Tea Partying Uncle Harry, whose obsession with an old flame called Ayn Rand threatens to destroy his family and to relegate the GOP to the ash bin of history.  The suspense mounts when Mitt reveals that he too carries a torch for this Goddess of Greed in spite of the fact that she sold him out and became one of the reviled “takers” after choosing Big Govt. Social Security and Medicare benefits over fidelity in the cause of fighting Big Govt. oppression.

    –the Party elders and intellectual heirs of William F. Buckley, Jr. playing themselves, many of whom now feel that the Conservative movement has been betrayed by the Right-wing populism and Religious zealotry of Tea Party extremists.  There are cameo appearances by such Conservative stalwarts as Peggy Noonan, David Brooks, William Kristol, David Frum and Charles Krauthammer, all of whom are recoiling in disgust from the pabulum and lies that Romney is now shamelessly peddling in a desperate effort to salvage his floundering campaign.

    • sickofthechit

       Awesome!  Submit that to some National Pubs.

      • Bruce94

        Thank you.  I only wish I could write lyrics like Randy Newman. Great bumper music, On Point!

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       ”he is totally incapable of connecting with nearly half the country
      including many hard working, responsible citizens whom he sees fit to
      denigrate as malingerers bent on exploiting him and his fellow country
      club, trust fund babies.”

      I think the number is higher than “nearly half”. He specifically slammed the 47% who don’t pay income taxes but many of us who do are more than a bit outraged (because we are Polyanna I guess) that someone with so much can be so crass and uncaring. That he believes that 47% think they are victims shows just how far removed he is from the “real people” he wants us to believe he is “one of”. Not to mention his usual lack of forethought (or shoot first, aim later) about who all is not paying income taxes. His backpedal, saying it is right that people in the military shouldn’t pay income tax is a case in point. 

      • Bruce94

        I agree.  I also pay income taxes on top of local and state taxes.  My intent was not to slam country clubs or trust funds (I applaud success and its trappings), but rather for the purposes of satire, to imply that not all wealth is earned and a proportion of the assets accruing to the 1% is inherited.  Maybe you or someone knows the approximate relative value of inherited wealth. 

        Anyway, the further point was to suggest that wealth does not in itself confer virtue as Rand and her ilk would assert along with the false assumption that the individual is in total control of his economic destiny AND owes nothing (e.g. taxes) to society for his capacity to determine that destiny. According to this warped and bogus view, any form of redistribution should be resisted as immoral and tantamount to “confiscation,” or “looting,” or “penalizing the rich and rewarding sloth.”

        As Warren Buffet and other highly successful businessmen have reminded us, it is likely that a significant portion of those donors seated at the table of the Romney fundraiser don’t pay their fair share of income taxes.  It can certainly be argued that Romney hasn’t.   

        IT IS NOT POLLYANNA of those of us including myself to react with outrage to Romney’s outrageous remarks.  It is actually an expression of enlightened self-interest to have an intact social contract with tax fairness, equal opportunity and a level playing field.

  • TinaWrites

    The so-called “Job Creators” already HAVE their tax breaks, and yet THERE AREN’T ENOUGH JOBS.  IF their theory about their tax breaks is correct, HOW is the nation’s joblessness the President’s fault rather than THEIR fault?!! 

  • Kate Hall

    The symbol for this election is a shovel: Romney digs holes for himself that he can’t get out of and Obama is trying to shovel us out of the mess the last administration left us.

    • JGC

      Maybe the Romney campaign could qualify as a shovel-ready project in the next Congressional budget…

  • AC

    how can you tell if some people on here are really writing what they believe, or, just what causes tension?
    I really don’t believe so many people walk around in denial….do they?

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       I’m sure there are some of the former and yes, I believe the vast majority are the latter.

    • Don_B1

      The Republican supporters are a combination of ideologues, some who are willfully ignorant and some who know they are wrong about how the world works but don’t want the result that doing the right thing would yield.

      Those willfully ignorant, who do believe what they write, refuse to even try to understand what the argument against them is, and just throw in inane comments to disrupt threads that have substance.

      Those that have studied the arguments against them spend their time trying to figure out how to keep others from understanding what is necessary to solve the problem. They do not like the necessary means to accomplish this, so they need to convince people that the problem can be solved in some other way (no matter if it can’t) or that it can’t be solved, period.

      Examples:

      Unemployment can be solved by temporarily spending by the government to put people to work (on items that will benefit the public for decades). But the government, in their ideology is incompetent, so they do not want it to be successful so it must not be attempted. They thus propose tax cuts to outsource the solution to the private sector, which is in this case wealthy individuals who will invest money abroad or just put the money in Treasury instruments, keeping the interest rate low and thus not fix the problem.

      Global Warming can be solved by supporting sustainable energy sources, but that will mean the declining worth of all those buried fossil fuels and again, a successful use of the government to solve a big problem. So the problem of climate change must be denied, first that there is no warming, then that it is good, then that it is too expensive to fix and we can adapt (the CEO of ExxonMobil actually said that it is an adaptation problem of lifestyle and physiology — what changes in body structure would be necessary he did not say, but I am waiting for the fan creating cells to be implanted on my skin to help cool me off) to the changes. It follows the set of steps that the cigarette manufacturers took in fighting the facts that smoking causes cancer.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jameel.webbdavis Jameel Webb-Davis

    Say it in short sentences in terms that the average person can understand – people who “don’t pay taxes” are people who get tax refunds. Yes, they’re paying taxes.  Say it in terms people understand.  

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Not the same thing. There ARE people who pay no income tax. If I get a refund, it is because I paid in more than I owed. If I owed nothing, getting it all back is still “paying no income tax”.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I suppose it is particularly galling to hear Romney denigrating those who pay the payroll tax when Paul Ryan’s plan takes down Medicare as we know it.  Up to $110,000 or whatever it is, one pays close to 15% on that income.  It has always seemed to me I’d have reached heaven if I earned more, and only were paying the income tax.  Those making $200,000 would be paying HALF the payroll tax.  Wow.  So, those making $100,000, make them pay, but then remove the benefit, or parts of it?

    • William

      But Obama is taking 716 billion out of Medicare. That does not concern you?

      • sickofthechit

         Please learn facts instead of listening to Repugnican ads or FAUX “News”.  The $716 billion dollars reduction in medicare payments to providers (meaning Hospitals, Insurers, etc) that they agreed to.  No ones Medicare benefits will be cut.

        • Don_B1

          William knows the facts; he just is hoping to sell someone a bridge based on their ignorance.

          Anyone who believes anything William writes is buying ten bridges to earn a living from the tolls when the bridges will not exist for 100 years.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Red herring. Ryan takes the same amount out but he is cutting it. Obama presumes he can convince the providers to cut their charges.

        • William

           Obama is cutting and Ryan is giving people an option.

          • Don_B1

            Ryan gives people a voucher, which can be used to buy an overpriced private insurance policy or BUY a policy from Medicare.

            Either way, the voucher will be increasingly less than what the policies will cost, so the senior will have to spend their own money, upwards of $6,000 per year to have insurance.

            Great option!

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Don, you can’t expect WilliamWorld to understand that.

            He won’t give a crap about the infrastructure underpinning Medicare (The Real One) until the day he needs it.

            I don’t even know if one of his parents needs it, given his tone about every iota of government spending that doesn’t show up in his line of sight every fekking day.

  • adks12020

    How did this current caller get through?  She is completely ridiculous.

    I bet she got government loans and grants to go to college.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Yup, let’s censor everyone who disagrees with you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jameel.webbdavis Jameel Webb-Davis

    What percentage of the economy are affected by poor people living “off the system”? What percentage of the economy is affected by rich people, paying little taxes, influencing policy in this country?

    Talk about that!

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    The left loves to bring race into everything.

  • Ellen Dibble

    There are transgenerational communities that are very explicit about how it’s “not worth it” to become middle class.  The taxes are burdensome, and the benefits (public housing, or “affordable housing,” MassHealth, where I live, food stamps, other benefits that those earning say $40,000 don’t have access to).  It is just not worth it to get the GED, get the nursing credentials, things that would pull you out of that mindset, where there is an alternate universe in many ways, much “earnings” under the table, using black markets and self-policing, all that.  No, they don’t like it At All.  But stepping out of it is self-destructive.

    • Don_B1

      When a single mother, struggling to feed children with support of housing aid, food stamps and Medicaid, sees that taking a job promotion which would increase her weekly income by, let’s say $100, means that the housing aid will drop by $150, maybe the food stamps by an additional amount or the Medicaid will require a copay, the progressivity of the tax code takes on new meaning.

      In other words, there are BIG financial incentives for the poor struggling people to stay in their current position rather than have to struggle even harder to get through the desert between where they are and where they genuinely would like to be.

      I will try to find the reference later (sorry).

  • Bill Bodge

    The Republicans could win this election easily.  Drop the tax cuts for the wealthy.  Americans know that the wealthy have made out much better over the last 30 years as designed by the wealthy through political control.  NAFTA, trade liberalization with China and a strong dollar policy pushed by Clinton and the Republican Congress have severally hurt the American middle class.   Reform is needed of welfare programs, but giving tax cuts to the wealthy will do nothing to create jobs.  Bill Gates would have started Microsoft whether he made 50 billion or 100 million.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

    The caller (Paula) says Mitt wasn’t degrading the 47% gave away her game with the continual insistence that “welfare” is everything people are getting from the goverment. (Let’s leave alone for now the accuracy of that number.)

    Tom, you are still able to be polite and point out to this white woman that her numbers are wrong and she has latched onto the wrong narrative.

    When a white woman complains about “welfare” two or three times to you, is there something in the public radio playbook which keeps you from saying things to her like “Social Security survivor benefits” or “combat zone troops” or “retired people with very low incomes” or “part-time students working through college”?

  • http://www.facebook.com/jake.izenberg Jake Izenberg

    What does Romney’s apparent incompetence on the campaign trail say about his supposed experience as a business executive? What sort of company could succeed if it were run like this campaign? I think it shows that success in business does not a good politician make. 

    As for the 47%. I am a medical student. I don’t pay federal income taxes. I receive help from the government in the form of subsidized loans. I have every intention of contributing to this country and this economy in a meaningful way and I find Mr. Romney’s words offensive, not just to me but to every person out there working toward a career, looking for a hard-to-find job, or reaping the benefits of years paying into the system. 

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       I guess you are a “taker” then Jake. And you must feel like a victim as well.

      Frankly I see a lot MORE people added to the 47%. My daughter is looking at colleges. I had her find out what new college graduates are making. Something on the order of $40K to $60K. And those are technical jobs like architects, engineers, etc. By the time someone starting college next year graduates, their college costs will be something between $150K and $300K. And if they aren’t kids of the top 10%, how the heck are they going to pay off the loans with a job that they MIGHT get?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      Dude, you gotta think like a rich man.

      Rich people don’t go through any crises of self-doubt when wondering if they should take advantage of that neato government exception made for them, that writeoff which they get which theoretically applies to the $8/hr barista (who doesn’t have the assets to make it worth her while) , that wrinkle in the tax code, the things their tax attorneys find for them.

      To them, it’s all bidness. That’s why the good lord made accountants.

      Why not you, too? Take it and enjoy.

    • OnPointComments

      Romney achieved phenomenal success in business, so you’re wrong on that point.  What does Obama’s apparent incompetence in government say?  Unemployment, debt, deficits, domestic policy, foreign policy — name something he has done well and at which he has excelled.  I can’t think of anything.  Until this past week, I thought he was intelligent.  But when his administration told us that Muslim terrorists who attacked our embassies on the anniversary of 9/11, armed with heavy artillery and rocket propelled grenades, burning American flags and shouting “We are Osama!”, and who subsequently killed 4 diplomats, were simply upset about a movie and didn’t have any problems with America or American policy, I realized I was wrong about him being intelligent.

  • Yar

    Isn’t health insurance a form of income redistribution? Would you want heart bypass surgery from a doctor that had only operated on people who could pay for the procedure on their own?

  • Jason Vicente

    Don’t Corporations receive “entitlements” in tax breaks and other government incentives.  Shouldn’t they pay there fair share of taxes?

  • MrNutso

    We redistribute and have done for decades.  The income tax was originally designed to tax the wealthiest to support the Federal Government.  The inheritance tax was so high, because the general thinking was to prevent the creation of a moneyed class.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Kinda failed at that I guess.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        I guess it’s time for another Public Radio-style even-handed discussion about the Death Tax parasitic moochers.

  • BHA_in_Vermont

    Romney is going to cut tax rates but pay for it by getting
    rid of loopholes. HELLOOOOOOO Mitt. Do the arithmetic. If you increase
    the taxable income and drop the rates NOTHING CHANGES.

     And based on the comments just made by Jack, I am incorrect. Something changes, the rich pay less and the not rich pay more.

    Yep, he is looking out for 100% of the citizens of the USA.

  • William

    The debate needs to be centered around the failure of redistribution. Has this tax policy worked? The Great Society programs redistributed trillions of dollars from producers to takers but poverty is at an all time high. 

    • MrNutso

      Who are the producers and who are the takers?

      • StilllHere

        The producers pay the tax, the government takes it and redistributes to those who vote based on who distributes more so they can do less.

  • Bugsyboo

    The 47% comments are, for me, not about the facts of who does or doesn’t pay what tax or when in their life time, but what it says about how Romney perceives people who are unlike him and his idea about how gov’t works and what its role should be in society. He is disdainful of people not born into his class and doesn’t believe that gov’t should play a role to support people in society. His business has received plenty of financial support from the gov’t, so his comments show he’s a hypocrite and a liar.

    • StilllHere

      Please elaborate on the government support his business received and to what extent that exceeded the amount that his business paid to the government. 

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/VI5OY2GSFPBZNOR5IMJJCEGFNE KumarN

    These remarks on the 47%, and the laborious spins on the same that Romney
    will now have to proffer, mark the beginning of the end of his sad campaign as it tailspins
    into a well-deserved, wide-margin defeat. Nobody can lead a nation without love
    and compassion for all citizens.

    These heart-less comments came from the depths of his off-the-cuff real
    heart! With such obvious contempt for the common man and woman, how can he face
    them, even at his own rallies, with a straight face from now on?  And why would any of the 47ers want to vote
    for him?

    His donors will now be throwing bad money after the bad, of which they have
    plenty, all made of course without any help from anyone else, purely out of
    thin air by their singular unaided genius. The facts will show that he and his
    ilk are the Mega Macho Alpha Grabbers, Takers, and Moochers of all time.  They eat jobs and digest companies to suck
    out their assets and redistribute them as obscene profits for themselves. 

    Romney is not a job creator at all!  All his business acumen is in manipulating numbers
    to strip out money and redistribute it to his super-rich investors’ cabal.   He is
    the archetypal redistributor of the wrong kind.

    It is apt and fitting that this video drama unfolded in the house of a private-equity
    moghul. The foul influence of all the black money with bad karma in that room spoke
    through Romney to express his and their real feelings for those who are not
    super-rich.

    The rest of their doddering campaign will now become farcical and painfully
    funny, just you watch!

     

  • BHA_in_Vermont

    He won’t deport them but he plans to deal with the problem.
    If you don’t deport them and you deal with the problem in anyway other than ignoring it, it is called AMNESTY.

  • Ed75

    President Obama put in the executive order to allow young Hispanics to stay – temporarily – because Senator Rubio was about to publicize a comprehensive solution. The president has failed to provide a comprehensive solution, he had both houses of Congress.

    • toby burleson

      People keep saying that President Obama controlled both houses for two years.  They forget that the Senate election results in Minnesota were contested for over a year, Sen. Ted Kennedy was very ill and often not able to attend and vote, and Sen. Nelson from Nebraska is so timid that he often voted with the Republicans on many of the President’s important administrative initiatives.  He didn’t have control of the Senate.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        And don’t forget LoserNormColeman.

      • MrNutso

        Not just Kennedy, but also Byrd.  And the extended time it took to get Al Franken seated.  Not to mention the actual need to have 60 votes to even get approval to take a cr@p.

      • MrNutso

        Byrd as well as Kennedy, and the time it took to get Al Franken seated.  Not to mention the actual need to have 60 votes to get approval to take a cr@p.

      • hennorama

        Facts are inconvenient when making political arguments and hyperbolic statements.  It’s much better to have something one can conflate with something else, such as “majority” and “control.”

        True, there was a Democratic majority, but this is not control, as one needs 60 Senators for “control.”

    • StilllHere

      Wait until you hear from the Obama apologists.

  • jirenma

    How about all the people in Massachusetts that were once on the health insurance program that Mitt Romney put into place (Commonwealth Care).  I was on it, I had needed it at one point in my life.  I have paid my fair share of taxes.  I’m quite upset with his comment. 

    There are those in the 53% that have at one point in their life needed government services (successful working Americans like my father). We strongly disagree that the entirety of the 53% will vote for Mitt Romney.

    • StilllHere

      You never paid your fair share of taxes, fair would be more, much more.

      • jirenma

        Are you saying that those in the 53% do not pay their fair share of taxes?  And I agree, taxes over are at historically low levels.  What do you advocate?  Raise taxes all across the board at all income levels?

        • StilllHere

          Tax those more who need more government service; more like a user fee, and therefore incentivizing people to take less.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Go back to telling people stuff about their personal income taxes. It’s such a winning strategy!

  • dandavis

    Beede is hilarious. Describes keeping what you eran as rewdistribution

  • Deborah Merrill

    As a former Republican and part of the 1%, I take issue with Romney’s comments on many levels. My father, a veteran of three branches of the armed services, who worked until he was 72, is receiving a pension and medicare benefits. My oldest daughter, who is currently in law school, is living on education loans at the moment but will be gainfully employed once she’s finished. My youngest daughter is working as a VISTA and is currently “on the dole”. My sons-in-law are an FBI agent and county sheriff, respectively, and are paying back their college loans, but will retire on government pensions. Will they be considered free-loaders? 

    My husband and I pay 35% in income tax, (more than twice what the Romneys pay) and believe those who make more should pay more, but we have heartburn with a tax structure that rewards accumulating wealth and penalizes hard work.

    The bottom line? We are NOT a homogenized mix, even within our own families, in this country, but the system as it currently exists, does a poor job of collecting revenue from the wealthy, and a decent job of providing benefits (not hand-outs) to those who are in transition in our country.

    • William

       Did it bother you when Obama called people that don’t buy medical insurance “free riders” (dead beats)?

  • Ellen Dibble

    It seems absurd to me for Romney to state he would not deport 12 million illegals.  As if that would be possible, even with 100 percent support in Congress.  So what?  People are made unwelcome enough that people choose to self-deport, which is doing it on the cheap, without it seeming immoral in any way?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       What is wrong with removing ALL magnets and then having an honest and robust guest worker program and a robust legal immigrant program?

      Yes, that results in ‘self-deportation’ but it is also fair to those who have been legally following the process and waiting in line.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Amazing.

    This panel is full of Obama apologists.

    They defend Obama on his redistribution remarks because of his extended remarks.  Then they ignore the fact that the tape is edited and there are a missing 2 minutes of context.  Further they spent 15 minutes putting words in Romney’s mouth — to his detriment.

    I wonder if they truly believe what they are saying. 

    • OnPointComments

      Liberal activist David Corn stated he released the unedited “full video” of Romney’s fund raiser. Not until he was confronted with evidence that there was a gap in the tape, at exactly the crucial moment, did Corn say the selective editing was inadvertent. Speculation is that the ghost of Nixon’s secretary, Rosemary Woods, is responsible for the gap in the tape. Or it could be that the missing section didn’t fit the agenda of left-wing Corn, an ardent Obama supporter.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Lemme guess: You never had the slightest worry for the videotape editing transgressions of the felon James O’Keefe.

        • StilllHere

          Moral relativism, it’s all you’ve got.  Pathetic.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Videotape editing. Parole violations. And felonious stuff involving bugging a senator’s phone, and trying to “seduce” a reporter on a boat to make a sex tape for blackmail puposes.

            No wonder you love O’Keefe’s crap: It’s as real world as you are.

          • StilllHere

            Moral relativism and deflection, my apologies. Truly pathetic!

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            You’d love for O’Keefe’s crap to be as real as the Mitt 47% tape. Sadly, that is not the case.

        • Mouse_2012

          Don’t forget the whole shirley sharon

          • OnPointComments

            The editing of the Shirley Sherrod clip is proof why everyone should be skeptical when an incomplete recording is presented.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Be skeptical when an incomplete recording is presented by James O’Keefe and anyone who has Andrew Breitbart’s phone number

            Fixed that for you.

      • Yar

        Easily proven from time stamp on the original tape.  More likely that record was momentary pushed while attempting to extract the quote of interest.  I wonder if modern forensics could extract the information from Rosemary Woods erasure of the Nixon tape. Digital analysis of the tape on a molecular level might have interesting results.

    • JGC

      I should put you into contact with my mother and my cousin Donna!  They could give you all the Romney apologist commentary that you crave…

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Bless their hearts.

    • OnPointComments

      When secret video tapes showed ACORN employees advising how to smuggle prostitutes into the country, far left liberal loon Rachel Madcow mooed her way into a hissy fit over the tactics. But she loves the secret Romney tape. Liberal hypocrisy is udderly fascinating.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        You really gotta take a course in film editing.

        And please, keep referring to a woman on the other side as a cow. It reflects so well on you.

    • hennorama

      Sorry for repeating myself, as this is the 3rd time I’ve posted this as a response to “Worried”:

      “Yes, maybe.  Yes, let’s solve this conspiracy to have Mr. Romney hang himself with his own words.  YES!  WHERE ARE THE 2 MINUTES?!!
      Let’s try to imagine SOME remarks that could put some context into his remarks, maybe put them in a better light:

      “You know, I just found out someone is taping this.  I’m gonna put on a little show.  I’ll say some stupid stuff that I don’t believe for the benefit of the tape, OK?  I mean, I know you all paid $50K to be here, so you do expect some entertainment, right?  I mean, the stuff I’m about to say is NOT intended to convince you guys to give me more money or anything, OK?  I don’t really believe this obviously untrue and idiotic stuff, so just bear with me for a bit, OK?”

      Yeah, I’m sure you could find SOMETHING to put the crass comments Romney made into a better context.

      Good luck with that.”

      • Joseph_Wisconsin

         “Edited” is a misleading description that I am not surprised to hear from the right wing spin machine.  Mother Jones published unedited the two videos they were given by the source.  There was a two minute period, continuous and contiguous, where Romney’s remarks were not recorded.  The person who submitted the tape explained why the gap was there.
        http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/09/21/week-in-the-news-214#disqus_thread

    • northeaster17

      Extended remarks are what is called context. Necessary when one is speaking above an 8th grade level. 

      • Steve__T

        No way he understands what he understands

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         You missed my point.  They NEVER pointed out that 2 minutes of Romney’s remarks were conveniently missing and the irony is they were right after the 47%.  The panelists had NO problem putting words in Romney’s mouth and put a weight of certainty of belief and worldview on those incomplete statements.

        Remember, Romney was talking about political process.  It sounds like he might have conflated the 47% of Obama voters that represent his base with the 47-53% who receive some level of government assistance.

         

  • Kathryn Kerner

    I am a married, Independent, female Ohioan.  I can’t believe that I was undecided before the 47 percent comments.  In the words of David Brooks, Romney’s comments are (a) “country club fantasy.” In addition, he should have looked at the following map before making those comments. 
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/09/where-are-the-47-of-americans-who-pay-no-income-taxes/262499/

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       You decided based on the edited campaign fund raiser tape?  Wow.

      • jimino

        Please get real.  The “47%” complaint is a constant talking point for the so-called conservative movement, one which I am sure you have repeatedly used yourself.  The likelihood  is that you and many of the so-called conservatives posting here, and undoubtedly a large number present at any tea party rally, are part of that 47%.

        Why don’t you just say you oppose progressive taxes, support regressive ones, and worship those who can successfully game the system for riches without paying their proportionate share of what it takes to run it?.  At least that’s honest.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           I’m OK with a progressive tax system.

          I also believe many more should ‘have skin in the game’ to protect our democracy.  And don’t say they do because I’ve heard all my life from Democrats that payroll taxes are in a lock box — the fact that the entitlements are underfunded is a separate issue.  They clearly need structural reform.

          Also, the top 10% pay 70% of all income taxes.  The top 20% pay 90%.  I think that is progressive enough.

          However, we do need real tax reform.  We need a much simpler system that drastically reduces compliance costs.  Rip up the 74,000 pages of the tax code.

        • notafeminista

          Why don’t you just say you support taxes on anyone who makes more money than you do, and anyone at your income level or less shouldn’t have to pay taxes at all?  It would be far more honest.

      • Steve__T

          The person(source) that gave the tape did not want to be identified, that part may have their voice or face and give away that identity. I’m sure that’s to simple for you.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           You know this how?

          • Steve__T

             Re-read the post I knew it would be to simple to understand, especially for someone that has no capacity for anything that takes thinking about or accepting another point of view.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             And I suspect you believe the protests and attacks were because of a video tape and the anniversary of 9/11 had nothing to do with it.

      • Joseph_Wisconsin

         “Edited” is a misleading description that I am not surprised to hear from the right wing spin machine.  Mother Jones published unedited the two videos they were given by the source.  There was a two minute period, continuous and contiguous, where Romney’s remarks were not recorded.  The person who submitted the tape explained why the gap was there.  So tell me during those two minutes what do you think Romney had to say that would invalidate everything else in the video?

        http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/09/romney-video-missing-one-to-two-minutes-135987.html

        • Ray in VT

          Something like “hey, wasn’t that a funny story that I just told you guys?  That, of course in no way reflects my true feelings, but that is how I imagine that Democrats would like to paint me.  By the by, thanks for coming out today to see my human comedy show.  Did you like that one?  Golly, then, do I have another hilarious yarn for you good folks.”

        • Brandstad

          It seems very suspicious that the missing audio is immediately before the 47% comment, that happens to be true!  only 47% of americans pay Federal income tax.  The part that is not true is many of those 47% will vote for romney and not for government dependence but there are a large group of Americans that do expect the US Government to do everything for them but whipe their butt..

      • BHA_in_Vermont

        That’s what undecided means at this late stage. You have reasons to vote for both candidates and one of them has to do something more than the other that will tip the scales. In Kathryn’s case, Romney didn’t give her a reason to vote for him but against him.

        Given I find his callous disregard and contempt for half the voters (and potentially half or more of the citizens) in the USA beyond the pale, I can easily see an undecided voter saying “Not Mitt” based on this tape. 

    • Brandstad

      She must change her mind 3 times a day whenever the latest propaganda comes out. 

      I hope most Americans look at promisses, and results along with people accomplishments.

  • Yar

    Our system is not to deport 12 million people, our system is to have second class residents.  Vestiges of slavery.  Every resident should be on a path to citizenship if they desire.

    • StilllHere

      Yes, reward the lawbreakers while the people we really want are waiting patiently in a consulate abroad following the rules and hoping to win the lottery.

      • Yar

        The lawbreakers are the businesses that pay less than a living wage to these individuals.  They exploit their lack of citizenship to drive down wages for everyone.

        • StilllHere

          Deport them and enforce the laws; and with millions of unemployed we’ll see where wages go.

          • Yar

            It makes perfect business sense to deport the people who do the work. Systems exist because they benefit those in power.
            Your simplistic solution is naive at best.
            The housing bubble crashed when immigration enforcement was increased. Ever wonder if it is a related cause and effect? Who was filling to bottom rung on the housing ladder during all of the expansion? We need legal immigration to lower the average age of our nation so we can support baby boomers during retirement.
            I stand by my statement that every person in this country should be on a path to citizenship if that is their goal. I am against slavery in all forms.

          • StilllHere

            We need legal immigration by law abiding individuals, not people prone to criminality.

            Correlation is not causation. Were those illegal immigrants buying houses with their slave wages?

          • Yar

            So lock up and deport employers who break the law. We can contract with Mexico to run the prison system for them, that should be a real deterrent. My point is; that everyone here should be on a path to citizenship. This dream is what makes our nation great. If the dream is only available to some while we exploit others, it will lead toward our downfall, just as slavery did 150 years ago.
            To claim that hard working people trying to feed their children tend toward criminality is very cold. Other than their citizenship status they are the some of the most law abiding citizens we have. What would you do if you were born in their situation? You can’t say because you really don’t know. The current lack of enforcement and related policies are a form of slavery. It is time to end the exploitation. Bring 12 million ‘Americans’ out of the shadows and offer them a living wage. It will help all of us.

          • StilllHere

            Deport and put them at the back of the line to wait their turns.  I’d rather have the truly poor who can’t afford to pay the coyotes come.

          • Yar

            Then you can enjoy your 5 dollar tomato in peace?
            You have no idea how much work the 12 million undocumented actually do. We have always welcomed those with the drive to get here on their own. Instead of advocating for the unreasonable export of 12 million people, examine why the system exist the way it does. Many US citizens benefit their exploitation.
            I would rather deport drug addicts, and true criminals, than hard working immigrants who build our economy through their real work.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            In Mitt’s world the immigrants are taking jobs but no corporations have designed the systems which hires them into their bidness plans. None of those publicly held multinationals or their suppliers or subcontractors have built their entire system on the substandard wages and the disposable (literally) nature of the workers, who get nicknames like “lefty”, “three finger” and “stumpy” at an alarming rate.

          • Mouse_2012

            China? or India?

          • StilllHere

            Right, how’s some Chinese guy gonna cut your grass and some Indian fry your burger?

          • Mouse_2012

            Workers visa for one

  • Dugg Antocicco

    What concerns me is that we keep focusing on two candidates.I feel that the choice between Obama and Romney is not much of a choice.  Their are two other candidates.  One of which was on this very show just a couple days ago.  Gary Johnson is a real alternative.  As a libertarian, he brings what i consider to be the best of both worlds.  He is both fiscally conservative, and a socially liberal.  Quite frankly I’m not sure why anyone is trying to find the difference between these two candidates.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Any candidate that will get a low single digit percentage is not a viable candidate unless there are a LOT of them.

  • NewtonWhale

    Jack, if you’re going to comment on the week in politics, you really need to keep current. In the swing states that will decide this election, Republicans no longer have an edge on Democrats in enthusiasm:

    Democratic Enthusiasm Swells in the Swing States, Nationally

    Overall, 59% of swing-state voters now highly enthusiastic, up from 46% in June

    whereas equal percentages of Democrats and Republicans were enthusiastic in June, Democrats are now significantly more enthusiastic than Republicans, 73% vs. 64%. 

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/157547/democratic-enthusiasm-swells-swing-states-nationally.aspx

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      There is seldom a price to be paid, in our mainstream media, to be behind the reality when the reality goes leftward.

      Years of public radio being afraid of the right wing, yet seemingly wanting to appeal to them (like a dog who crawls back to the person who hits it) permeates the culture to the extent that even Jack Beatty falls into it sometimes.

  • Markus6

    I never thought Romney could win even with a president who is in over his head. 

    My guess is that a much higher percentage than 50% is somewhat dependent on the government. Doesn’t mean they’re bad people. In many cases, they are federal, state and local government workers. And many of these are as hard working as anyone. But they’re still somewhat dependent. 

    So here you have a president who has increased the debt to 16 Trillion and clearly is oriented towards increasing government and what government gives to people. Note, the Congress both sides is just as guilty. And here you have a candidate who is telling the majority of people who are dependent on government, I intend to give you less. 

    There’s a cliche that democracy only works until people find they can vote themselves the money. 

    And sadly, the effect of a $16 Trillion dept is just too big for most to get their heads around. 

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Why don’t you think Romney will win?

      The spin you heard today?

      Romney will win and win big.

      Despite all the media attempts to prop him up Obama can’t get above 47%.  Not good for Obama and Axelrod.  Plus his campaign was in debt at the end of August.  They blew their wad too early and they know if they don’t put this away now they are dead.

      • Markus6

        Good points. I hope you’re right. He has his flaws. I wish he’d address the ridiculous amounts made by gazillionaires as well as his avoidance of shrinking the military, but the president is so obviously incompetent, it’s an easy decision for me. 

        Maybe I spend too much of my time listening to non-commercial radio and TV which tends to be very biased.

        • Gregg Smith

          It is a concerted effort to bring you down. Don’t let it.

      • Brandstad

        The media is killing itself. 

        U.S. Distrust in Media Hits New High
        Fewer Americans closely following political news now than in previous election years

    • BHA_in_Vermont

      “My guess is that a much higher percentage than 50% is somewhat dependent on the government.”

      We are all dependent on government. No private company is staffing the police department, the fire department, paving the roads, providing a “well regulated militia” etc.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Do you subscribe to the Julia channel?

      • Gregg Smith

        Blackwater?

        • Ray in VT

          Yup.  Weren’t they doing the same jobs in Iraq that used to be done by regular army but at 6 times the pay?  Man, privatization really saved some money there.

          Last I heard they were somewhat covertly training South Americans to work for the UAE government.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Exactly so.  We have nothing to apologize for.  A couple of people made a movie.  So?  The message should have been advice to get over it.

    • Mouse_2012

      ad nauseum

      • OnPointComments

        Why is it that liberals will always excuse or mitigate the atrocities committed by radical Islamic terrorists?  Liberals may make a condemnation statement, but there will always be a “BUT” or “EVEN THOUGH” attached to it.

        • Mouse_2012

          Cause it’s not true that liberal excuse or mitigate atrocities committed by radical Islamic terrorist

  • Human898

    Why does Mr. Romney NOT mention High Income No Taxes (HINT) ??   Why does Mr. Romney NOT mention WHY people who do not pay income taxes do not pay income taxes, namely those above, changes in the income tax and tax credit laws (those promoted and backed by Republicans and regarding those with children), who is not paid enough to pay income taxes (and why they are not paid enough and by whom) and retired people?   Why is Mr. Romney not mentioning that the nation experienced a financial crisis that was the second worst recorded in this nation’s history and what political party’s member was in the White House at the time or how that party suddenly has become populated by financial geniuses who know how long a recovery from such a crisis should take and how to avoid another?   How can Mitt Romney say the government should NOT go into debt to create jobs, then blame the government for NOT creating jobs?  Where have Mr. Romney and his millionaire friends been with regard to creating jobs?   Who’s been firing and laying off Americans to “save money” where has that “saved money” gone?    Who’s NOT hiring Americans, but hiring foreigners? What Americans are profiting from firing Americans? Why no mention of that Mr. Romney?

    Too too many missing parts of the whole story to take Mr. Romney credibly and to demonstrate that he is either aware of what he was talking about or to think that he was doing anything aside from being intentionally deceptive (by not breaking out that the entire 47% are not people without jobs who take food stamps and don’t want to work, but a MUCH smaller portion of that and NOT describing the breakdown of people in the 47%.  The impression many got, perhaps for a reason, was that Mr. Romney was trying to peel off nearly one half of America and label them as totally dependent upon government handouts as people who do not work, don’t want to work and will not work in order to draw in others who will NOT look behind what he is saying to check the validity of what he was saying or who really does not pay income taxes and why.  Do they fit the description Mr. Romney clearly appeared to be suggest of fully 47%???   NO!   If people like Mr. Romeny would actually invest in higher paying American jobs, MORE people would be paying income tax.  

    In addition, how can one complain about the national debt and deficit spending at the same time they recommend not just revenue (tax cuts for those who can most absorb tax increases and still live in high luxury), but more job cuts?

    People who have jobs pay taxes.  People who have higher paying jobs, pay higher taxes.   If you believe the government shouldn’t spend money to create jobs (and they shouldn’t UNLESS no one else is), then who are you waiting on to create them?   How can you blame the government or president for high unemployment?

    Hiring people in other nations to “save money” does not help pay down our national debt.  People in other nations do not pay U.S. income taxes.   

    Employees are not just expenses Mr. Romney and friends, they are consumers and taxpayers.   You can’t lay off and fire Americans, cut spending budgets that cut American jobs, then wonder why so many Americans are unemployed, don’t pay taxes, are on temporary assistance and why a government charged with “promot(ing) the general welfare” is spending money to do that until the private sector picks up the slack and hires Americans and hires them at liveable wages and wages that will mean they pay income taxes, more of them and mean LESS government assisitance and LESS government debt.

  • OnPointComments

    The most talented comedy writers living today could not write a more absurdist script than the one being acted out by the Obama administration. Meet with the Israeli Prime Minister? Sorry, no time, partying with Beyoncé & Jay-Z. Diplomats killed & embassies bombed? It’s just a video, sorry, off to Vegas & Letterman. Intelligence briefings? Can’t attend, talking with “Pimp with a limp.”

    • Human898

      Mr. Romney was doing what?   Supporting his nation?  Trying to act presidential or was he busy driving wedges and fanning flames?

      • OnPointComments

        Barack Obama is the president of this country, not Mitt Romney.  Meeting with Prime Ministers, responding to attacks on Americans, and attending intelligence briefings are his responsibilities.

        • Mouse_2012

          Israel is not america, the PM is not america leader. Obama has no responsability to do what Nutty wants.

          • Gregg Smith

            Are you Hidan?

          • StilllHere

            He’s definitely a hater.

          • Mouse_2012

            Keep drinking

          • Mouse_2012

            none other

        • Steve__T

           So why did Mitt do all you stated?

      • StilllHere

        Ask Obama, but I don’t think you drive with a wedge.  You drive with a driver, you’re looking for loft with a wedge.

    • Brandstad

      I think Obama might have changed his ways.  This week was the first week this year that he attended 5 intelligence briefings! LOL

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Funny, it’s been 5 days since Romney started his briefings — coincidence?

        • adks12020

          Just admit you’re trying to make the President fit your slanted views of him.  If you think he doesn’t know what kind of intelligence is being gathered you really have your eyes closed.
           
          The President is briefed by his top staff members every day…not just this President…every President.
           
          If you think any President can attend every meeting, about every issue, every day you must think there are an infinite number of hours in the day.  That’s why Presidents have a staff.  Just like the head of any large organization a large group of managers (or staffers, or cabinet members) are necessary to keep the leader appraised of the goings on throughout the organization.

          Also, President Obama actually has a job right now…being President.  Romney’s only job is running around the country torpedoing his campaign at every opportunity…and, don’t get me wrong, he’s doing a fantastic job but I think he probably has just a little more free time than the President does. 
          Get a clue.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            No.  Obama skipped 50% of his briefings over the past year.  He claims to have read them on his Ipad.

            Big difference between reading a report and getting a briefing where you can ask questions of the experts.
             

          • StilllHere

            You’d have to be paying attention to ask questions!  Recent events show Obama is completely out of touch and Americans are paying the ultimate price.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             And you want to talk about free time.  Obama has spent over 600 hours on the golf course.  He has time to hob knob with Beyonce and Jayz, go on Letterman.  He even goes on a fundraiser in Nevada the day our consulate was attacked.

            It is clear where his priorities are.

          • Brandstad

            You must not have seen the interview with one of Bill Clintons staff who said that he started every day with the briefing.  Even if he was out of the white house, he was a part of this meeting via phone.

            You seem to have a lot to say without much knowledge… LOL

        • Gregg Smith

          Good point, I hadn’t thought of that.

    • Mouse_2012

      Again,

      F Israel and it’ racist P.M. telling the U.S. what to do about Iran.

      Least he’s meeting with americans instead of flying to Israel to have a private Fundraiser.

      • StilllHere

        Wow, you are such a racist.

        • Mouse_2012

          There you go again with projection.

  • Brandstad

    100 DAYS TO GO UNTIL LARGEST TAX HIKES IN HISTORY

    • StilllHere

      Save all you can now, pull forward as much income as you can; prepare for chaos.

      • Gregg Smith

        Good advise.

  • JGC

    Here is one (one!) common-sense proposal put forward by the Republican Congress, that failed to get the necessary 2/3 majority:  they wanted to change the visa program, to re-direct 55,000 diversity visas that are currently awarded by lottery, to a new program targeting immigrants with specific science, technology, and math skills.  This makes a lot more sense than the jackpot lottery that really does not transparently provide the U.S. with a proven skill set that could quickly benefit our economy. Apparently there were a few provisions within that legislation, “poison pills”, such that they could not peel off enough Democratic votes, like if the visas were not awarded, the number of future visas would be decreased, so it started to look like a back end way to limit immigration.

    But the basic concept is a smart one, and I wish there could have been compromises made to make it palatable for a majority vote.     

    • Steve__T

       That would have meant that there were less for the house keepers and gardeners of the rich.

  • Mouse_2012

    Know what is interesting is that Right-wing Think Tanks and NGO just so happens to get funding from the government. Not to mention all those staffers,consultants that the right relies on for data.

  • hennorama

    I’ve stopped counting the number of posts from the parrots screaming “WHERE ARE THE 2 MINUTES!.” 

    Each time I read one, I think of a parrot screaming “2 minutes BAWWK!  EDITTED BAWWWK!”

    Please please tell us what could POSSIBLY be contained in the BAWWWK 2 Minutes BAWWK portion of the recording that could put Mr. Romney’s words into a better light.

    Please.

    • Mouse_2012

      It’s the self delusion of the right, they can’t admit that Romney and company doesn’t give a flip about them so they try and rationalize that’s Romney is talking about everyone else but them.

      • Steve__T

         NAILED IT!

      • notafeminista

        How does it feel to know that you need people to be deluded in order to support your position?

        • Steve__T

           You flip flop better than Romney he should hire you, and then ship you and your job off to China.

        • Ray in VT

          I don’t know.  I often do wonder what it must like to be in the GOP or the Tea Party.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      You must work for MSNBC.  They love editing conservative comments.

      I heard Obama’s redistribution comment and there is no way that could be put in a ‘better light’.

      • hennorama

        BAWWK redistribution BAWWK!

        Nice.  Ignore the question, bring up something else, well done.

        Care to try again?

        Any speculation on what could possibly be on the BAWWK 2 MINUTES! BAWWK?

        Please pray tell us how redistribution is bad, and how long redistribution has existed, and how redistribution is different from any economic transaction.

        For example, when a customer buys a product from a vendor, is the customer redistributing money to the vendor?

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Lame.

          Redistribution happens but it shouldn’t be celebrated. The concept is anti-American.

    • StilllHere

      Better questions, what are lib activists hiding in the 2 minutes and why are they so afraid to produce an unedited version?

      • hennorama

        BAWWK What are they hiding? BAWWK

        I have NO idea what may be contained in any amount of the recordings that have not been released.  Could be the identity of the person recording Mr. Romney’s remarks, could be shaky and unusable …  who knows?

        It is difficult to imagine ANYTHING that could possibly outweigh the rest of the video, but you’re welcome to try.

        Anyone?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Is this a bid for some self-parody award?

    • jimino

      Mitt’s claims about the 47% are de rigueur talking points that I have heard from every one of my so-called conservative friends and acquaintances for years.  There is no chance whatsoever that he hasn’t repeatedly used this talking point in his interactions with his base.  And everyone here squawking about the 2 minutes has used it too.

      So, squawkers, are the 47%, you know, those children, students, elderly, enlisted military families, are they moochers in you opinion or not?  That’s what people want to know from you.

    • Joseph_Wisconsin

       Except, once more, it seems that the entire video has been put out there.  At least as far as Mother Jones can say from what they received from the source.  The “smoking gun” piece supposedly “edited” from the video may never have existed as it was not recorded to begin with. 

      http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/09/21/week-in-the-news-214#disqus_thread

      You are correct though, just what did Romney supposedly say that would totally upend the discussion?  Surely we would have heard from one of those present something about that by now?

  • JGC

    For people in the Philadelphia area, I see there is a “Bucks for Obama” event this weekend.  Bucks for Obama! I think it refers to Bucks County, PA and not necessarily about raising more bucks for Obama – could be both! Clever…

    “Grab a friend an join us for a fun-filled day of door to door canvassing…enjoy ice cream after.  Meeting at Chubby’s Dairy Barn, Plumsteadville. Saturday and Sunday afternoons, Sept. 22 and 23 from 1:00 to 5:00 p.m.”

    • Ray in VT

      Are you sure that it’s not an attempt to get out the deer vote?

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    After listening to today’s show our worst fears were confirmed.  Tom is fully in the Obama tank.

    btw – Jake Tapper is now reporting that Obama is falsely claiming Fast and Furious program “begun under the previous administration”.

    At least there is one honest journalist left.

  • JGC

    The Romney campaign paid out $188,000 in bonuses to his top aides after the Republican convention.  Well done, guys. Keep up the good work. Victory is ours!

    • Mouse_2012

      Would these people be counted as people who depend on government?

      Since 50 Million was given to the RNC of tax payers $$

  • Mouse_2012

    So Romney attacked Obama for saying ” You can’t change government from the inside”

    Guess who else said ” You can’t change goverment from the inside?

    Romney.

  • AC

    can i make a suggestion On Point producers? Since ‘taxes’ is such a big throwing stone lately, is it possible to get a real-life CPA or qualified accountant to answer questions? I would appreciate it!!

    • StilllHere

      No, journalists are preferred.
      It’s like when OnPoint talks about derivative trading and they get the guy from Ladies Home Journal.
      The point is to make Tom look good and/or support his bias.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    For Obama supporters, here is a partial summary of an indictment of the Obama Presidency. If you read this with your critical thinking hat on you might understand why many of us want Obama fired.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2012/09/19/obamas-dangerous-and-disastrou
     

    • OnPointComments

      “Will Ordinary Dems Ever Say ‘Enough’?”
       

      http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/../2012/09/will_ordinary_dems_ever_say_enough.html

      • Steve__T

         Not a dem but if I could I’d fire the lot of em and start over. that includes the Repbus

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         That is an excellent article and it is written from a Dem and independent perspective.  Much more effective.

    • Steve__T

      Sorry that’s not even close to conservative journalism, and no I won’t give them a tax deductible contribution.

      • StilllHere

        Wow you really shot a hole in their argument.  Bully for you!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        I wasn’t requesting a contribution — just some critical analysis of Obama’s failures of leadership.
        His record.

        Instead we get: “Romney is disqualified to be President because he released a two sentence criticism of an embassy statement and by the way Romney’s statement was correct and administration officials agreed with it.  But he is still disqualified and we’ll have our friends in the media obsess on it for a week despite the entire middle east is burning down and there are many unanswered and unasked questions about the administrations handling of foreign policy.”.

        • Steve__T

          Oh I didn’t know it was your page. What I read was too slanted to swallow whole. I don’t know if you realize  I’m not a Dem and don’t like Obama’s job performance on a lot of levels, but I also have watched congress and like what they have done even less.

          As far as Romney, I don’t trust him at all he reminds me of a snake oil salesman.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            What did you think of Romney’s performance as Governor (during a crisis) and his stint turning around the corrupt and bankrupt SLC Olympics? Both were resounding successes. Everything he has done has been a success.

            Romney’s biggest problem, in my view, is he isn’t a natural politician.

            He doesn’t bite his lip and do the phony I feel your pain nonsense.  Maybe that makes it harder for him to get elected.

             However, he is a problem solver and I have confidence he’ll do a great job as President.

          • Steve__T

            This is re-posted from an earlier one down the page:
            These people went to the RNC to try to get him to help save their jobs It seems that’s against his true agenda.

            Workers Demand Romney Visit Before Bain Sends Jobs to China http://www.democracynow.org/2012/9/20/bainport_a_taste_of_the_romney

            Hes not interested. If he even talked to thees people I might have considered him something more than an opportunist, taking advantage of a great opportunity. And wow wouldn’t that have put a feather in his cap just like all politicians need to be seen as caring for their base. Not this one. He is not someone I want as a president. So I keep what I’ve got and wish for better later.I read your link will you read mine and give me your thoughts?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Did Obama visit all the auto dealerships that Government Motors and the car czar forced closed and layoff 17,000 workers?

            btw – your link is broken

          • Steve__T

            It’s fixed
            Obama didn’t build the car companies Romney built Bain.

          • Steve__T

             figures nothing but crickets

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Is it not genuinely conservative, or not genuinely journalism.

        I mean, it meets all the other Worried link criteria.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Lobbyist with close ties to White House behind effort to stop the golf jokes:

     http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/20/lobbyist-close-to-white-house-behind-effort-of-golfers-to-quell-jokes-about-obama/

    • Mike_Card

      Weeper of the House Boner plays a lot more often than the President.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      “Now watch this drive.”

      Please, make more links to the DailyTucker.

  • hennorama

    Mr. Romney’s job creation plan:

    1. Say stupid crass disdainful stuff, giving endless new opportunities for unemployed joke writers, cartoonists, comedians and satirists.

    2. Continue to make comments that contradict the comments he just made, giving new opportunities to anatomists and physiologists to research how many sides Mr. Romney’s mouth actually has

  • Olden_Mariner

    part of his 47% should be considered those who work for the government who get paid from our taxes – which includes him!

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Romney didn’t accept a salary when he volunteered to save the Olympics or as Governor of MA.

      • Ray in VT

        That’s right.  He just lived mostly off of unearned income, which is taxed at a much lower rate than earned income.  It’s one of the benefits of having tons of money.  One can take advantages of many tax policies that people who don’t have much money can’t.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          Interesting that you flip his selfless public service into a tax debate. Are you implying he would have collected a salary if his investment income was taxed at a higher rate?

          The irony is Romney’s tax reform will remove the loopholes that some of the rich use to avoid taxes.  Obama just want’s to raise rates for top earners.

          The lower unearned tax rates started under Clinton.  The reason given is it would help grow the economy by encouraging investment.  We do need a debate on investment income tax rates vs. earned income and the impact of a change on economic growth.  Economic growth and new jobs is our number one issue right now.

          There are two fairness issues usually ignored by supporters of raising dividend and cap. gains taxes.  Dividends are doubly taxed — especially if corp. taxes are reformed to remove the loopholes.  Cap. gains ignore inflation.  It is possible to hold a stock for 30 years sell it for a 30% gain and have a ‘real’ loss.  Is it fair to tax someone on a loss?

          • Ray in VT

            Everything seems to be fair game in today’s political discussions.  I’m saying that he would have drawn a salary if he wasn’t filthy rich, and that he has been able to increase his wealth through policies that reward those who are already wealthy.

            Perhaps Romney’s plan would, but has he specified any actual loopholes that he would close.  I hear a lot that he will close some, but I don’t hear any guarantees of what he’s looking to do.  Will it be the elimination or limitation of the mortgage credit?  Will it be the ending of non taxation of employer health benefits?  Who knows?

            Now, I’m not going to pretend to know how all of these long term investment things are calculated.  It seems pretty complex, and I haven’t looked into it deeply.  What I do know from people who know how to work the code, is that they can hide pretty much anything that doesn’t come in through a W-2, and that is certainly an argument for tax code simplification, which I support as long as it is done in a certain way.

            Now, again, I’m not sure of all of the ins and outs of how the various gains rates are calculated, but here’s a breakdown of the maximum tax rate on long term gains:

            http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=161

            Yes, it was lowered under Clinton from 29.19% to 21.19%, which is less than it was under the last two years of the Reagan administration, but it was lowered several times under George W. Bush to 15.35%, which is the lowest that it has been going back to 1954.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             We could have a long discussion on taxes but….

            I did find it interesting that the revenues from cap gains in 2007 exceeded those in 2000 despite the higher rate in 2000 and that was the height of the internet bubble.

            Regarding Romney’s details, it would be politically stupid for him to put out an ‘example’ set of deductions.  Why?
            1) Congress will have to negotiate the details on a bipartisan basis
            2) The details don’t effect his priorities — tax reform, revenue neutrality, economic growth, maintaining current tax burden by income class
            3) Any example set of deductions will be attacked by special interest groups and be used to divide voters.  This is what happened to Simpson-Bowles.

            Romney’s plan is similar to SB except SB raised taxes on everyone so it raised 21% of GDP in revenue.  Romney’s plan does the same thing but raises 18-19% of GDP in revenue.  The reason Romney does this is he places a higher priority on economic growth than SB did.  He believes, correctly in view, that economic growth will balance the budget faster in the medium term.

            Both SB and Romney address your W2 unfairness issue.  The only question is how much?

            I do have a question about SB and Romney’s plan.  How many pages is the resulting tax code.  It is now 74,000 pages and growing rapidly.  It needs to be much simpler if it isn’t I would consider the reform a failure or at least a missed opportunity.

  • Gregg Smith

    Wow, Rush just played a montage of the questions Obama got from Univision and the American press’ reacting in horror at the example of real Journalism. I guess Obama thought it was friendly territory like Letterman but they are not happy with his broken promises. They are not happy about “Fast an Furious” and of course Obama lied about it. He said it started under Bush.

    • Mouse_2012

      twit, twit twit

      day in and day out.

    • StilllHere

      American journalists are DNC plants.  True journalism is dead. 

  • Brandstad

    U.S. Distrust in Media Hits New High
    Fewer Americans closely following political news now than in previous election years

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Ray, you disparaged the TEA party (and GOP) below.  Fine.

    But I’m curious what your view of the TEA party is if you are willing to engage.  Outside the fog of media spin I would think TEA party principles would be supported by a majority of American’s.  I’m not referring to GOP members who have co-opted TEA party support but pure TEA party principles.
     

    • Other Chris

      You type TEA like it’s an acronym for something. What does TEA stand for?

      • Gregg Smith

        Taxed Enough Already.

    • Ray in VT

      I don’t have much respect for the Tea Party as it often manifests itself, Worried.  Some of the really egregious stuff is the Tennessee move to take slavery references out of textbooks or the guy who ran for Congress here in 2010 who had a radio show where he promoted britherism or the idea that preschool was a government attempt to brainwash our kids.  Another image that comes to mind are the people with their signs that wanted the government to keep it’s hands off of their government health insurance.

      Do I think that those examples are indicative of the entire movement?  I hope not.  One of the problems that I do see is that by and large the Tea Party has wed itself to the GOP, and I really dislike the GOP.

      I also take issue with the Taxes Enough Already idea.  Current federal taxation as a share of GDP is at a 60 year low.  State and local taxes may be another matter, as I’m sure that you know living in “Taxachusetts”, right?  I think that there are some real and serious decisions that need to be done regarding entitlement spending and bringing the debt and deficit under control.  I think that it means some combination of tax increases and spending cuts.  If people don’t want tax increases, then it’s going to be spending cuts, and I don’t think that a lot of people really understand what that would mean, and I just think that that is the wet dream of people like Grover Norquist and those who have traditionally opposed the welfare state.

      I also have an issue with what appears to be the libertarian strain that runs through the Tea Party.  On a lot of social issues, like gay marriage or getting rid of some of those ridiculous blue laws, I can really line up with libertarianism, but I think that as an economic model of organizing society I think that it is horribly deficient.

      So that’s it.  I have to run now, so have a nice weekend.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Thanks for your thoughts and have a good one.

        I’ll put some thought in my response — later.

    • Ray in VT

      Also, I did think that that was a prime opportunity for a good crack below, and I’m feeling in a pretty joking mood today.

  • Brandstad

    Why is the president giveing the same speaches this year as he did 4 years ago?  Shouldn’t he have fulfilled some of the promisses durring the last four years! Especially since he had control of all branches of government for TWO years!!!

    • jimino

      Yeah!  You tell ‘em.

      I mean, who wouldn’t prefer their stocks to be worth less than half of their current value, which was the case when Obama took office.

      And of course you would have to be a fool to prefer the private sector actually adding jobs instead of shedding hundreds of thousands a month, right?

      What world do you live in?

  • bfryer

    If Romney is running his campaign this badly, what would he do to the country?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Who said he is running a bad campaign?  The media?

      What is bad about his campaign in the past two weeks?

      1) A two sentence statement criticizing the statement released by the embassy in Egypt.  His statement was on point and admin agreed with Romney and disavowed it.  Even Hillary ordered it pulled.

      In light of what we learned about the ham handed response by the Administration Romney’s initial instinct looks even better.

      2) An edited video released by campaign operatives and the liberal press timed to do the most damage.  You blame that on his campaign?

      No it is the biased media that needs the scrutiny, not the Romney campaign.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Actually, the better response is all we need to do is look at how Obama has run the country over the last 4 years.

      The only conclusion to be reached is EPIC FAIL.

      The Romney stuff is purely media spin.

      • StilllHere

        And yet his sheep want 4 more years of this disaster!  It’d be funny if it weren’t so sad.

  • Brandstad

    Did everyone see the Obama interview this week and Obama didn’t know what the National Debt was +/-$2TRILLION!

  • Brandstad

    Did everyone see that the Obama Administration is running apology comercials in Packastan stating that the US doesn’t support the offensive video with your tax payer dollars!

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       How much did that waste cost?

      • Gregg Smith

        A few hundred bucks and the dignity of our nation.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          I just saw something that it cost $70K.

  • Gregg Smith

    Hey great news, after 20 years “Piss Christ” is going back on display at a NYC museum. Christian bashing is celebrated by liberals. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Wait!

    Didn’t Tom and the panel tell us this race is all but over.

    Gallup has the race O47 R47 for the second day in a row AFTER the media tells us Romney is toast.  What’s up?

    Much to the chagrin of  Axelrod and the Obama sycophants in the media the voters will have their say on November 6th.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    OK, the left is correct.  Romney is an idiot.

    He just released his 2011 taxes.  He gave $4M to charity in 2011 but only deducted $2M from his income taxes so he paid more tax than he had to.

    He also released a summary of his last 20 years and it isn’t pretty for Harry Reid.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/romneys-release-taxes_652850.html

    His lowest tax rate year was 13.66% but the average effective rate was 20.2%.

    His total tax burden + charity over the entire 20 year period was 38.49%.
     

     

    • Steve__T

       Charity is tax deductable

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Yeah but he didn’t take the full deduction.  He paid more tax than he needed to.

        • Mouse_2012

          You actually make the lefts point. Due to pressure he most likely claimed less to get his 13%. Do tell what his tax % would have been if he took the whole deduction(most likely he did this those previous years) ?

      • Mouse_2012

        Makes you question what his tax % would have been if he took the full deduction doesn’t it? Who wants to bet he took that full deduction in previous years?

      • Gregg Smith

        Obama has tried at least 5 times to end or reduce the charitable deduction.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Hey, did you see Lord Etchasketch released an “executive summary” of his tax returns?

    “Romney’s campaign now claims the lowest effective rate he ever paid was 13.66 percent and that the average across the 20 year period 20.20 percent.”

    OMG! The right runs around like chicken little screaming that the sky will fall if we don’t fix the big bad deficit, and they are totally unconcerned with an oligarch paying 20%!!!

    How hard is it to see that their real agenda is redistribution upward?

    In yet more romney humor, did you see that some campaign aides received bonuses? Apparently no matter where he goes, the financial con culture will follow. For him to be a real financier, tho, he’ll have to keep rewarding them with even more goodies when he loses the election :)

    • Mike_Card

      For someone who enjoys firing people (flesh & blood, not corporate “people”), he sure doesn’t know when to pull the trigger.  Before he starts going off about turning around the country, how about he turns around his pitiable imitation of a political campaign?

      Or maybe Lady Ann is right, “This is really hard!  You people should try it sometime.”  Does she realize that a pink slip isn’t a piece of underwear?

      • Gregg Smith

        More BS. He never said he enjoyed firing people. Never. If you want to quote the quote then read it first.

      • StilllHere

        Ha, this from a guy who’s only been on the receiving end; you’re giving lessons about how to be a boss and be successful.  Thanks loser, you made my weekend!

        • Mike_Card

          You really wouldn’t know that, either.

      • OnPointComments

        I agree with Romney, we should be getting rid of people who aren’t doing their jobs or doing their jobs exceptionally poorly.  GSA?  Many, many people should have been fired, and forced to pay back bonuses.  SEC personnel looking a pornography for hours a day?  They should be shown to the door.  DOJ?  If you are unaware of the poor decisions being made in the department in which you are in charge, adios.  Secretary of State?  If you can’t figure out that the embassies should be protected, especially on 09/11, then you need to be doing something else.

    • Steve__T

       They got him the nomination they deserved a bonus.

      • notafeminista

        Hard work deserves a reward.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Harry Reid looks like a fool.

      • StilllHere

        Not difficult, the guy is a complete sleazeball.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Obama gave those GSA clowns a bonus.  Which is worse?  Which was with taxpayer cash?

    • Gregg Smith

      The “redistribution upward” thing is ridiculous. How does that work? Spell it out for me. When some one keeps more of what they earn how is that keeping it from the poor?

      How much more than 20% of his money do you want?

      • notafeminista

        They want all of it.

        • StilllHere

          So they can afford their lives of leisure.

          • notafeminista

            Always easier when someone else foots the bill.

          • Gregg Smith

            And they still gripe.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        No, it’s obvious. Just look at what has happened to the distribution of income in the USA since about 1980. We’ve gone from broad middle class prosperity to 3′rd world inequality. That, “gregg smith”, is prima facie redistribution upward.

        I think a reasonable top rate would be 50% – a nice reduction for the elite from what it was when the middle class was thriving.

        It’s so boring to hear the constant repetition of “envy” every time someone suggests we revise out ultra-low top tax rate. How can you claim to be so concerned about the deficit and yet recoil in horror every time it’s pointed out that rates at the top are super low?

        • Gregg Smith

          Revenue would be nice but we a spending problem. Tax hikes are fine but not in this economy. Even Bill Clinton and Nancy Pelosi agree. Obama could have raised taxes anytime in the first 2 years but didn’t. But I digress.

          You made an unsupported claim. Spell it out for me. When some one keeps more of what they earn how is that keeping it from the poor?

    • StilllHere

      Wow, the envy in you is strong.
      We get you’re a failure in life, especially monetarily.
      We get that you’ve never been rewarded for all you offer society.
      We get that you blame society for all of it.
      Time to move on friend.
      Get a dog, he’ll love you and won’t complain about your whining.

      • Gregg Smith

        I do not know that TomK didn’t make $21 million last year but I suspect not. He had the same access to the same infrastructure that Romney chipped in almost $2 million for so I can’t explain it.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Envy? Hahaha.

        Project much.

    • Bruce94

      Aside from the fiscal insanity and economic unsustainability of Romney’s proposals for re-distributing income from the bottom or middle to the top (which you’ve aptly described), I’m also concerned with the fairness issue of an approach to tax policy that penalizes folks so severely for receiving ordinary income from working vs. unearned income from investing. 

      Does this latest tax disclosure imply that during some years the legion of secretaries, clerks, nannies, cooks, butlers, maids, valets, chauffeurs, tutors, landscapers, dressage horse groomers, etc. he may have employed (documented or otherwise) paid income taxes at a substantially higher rate than he did?  If so, how do you justify it?  When do we as a society stop coddling the super-rich?

      • Gregg Smith

        So in addition to chipping in $1.9 million for infrastructure Romney created lots of jobs and tax payers. What’s not to like? Would you be happier if the horse groomers were out of work?

        • Bruce94

          I applaud success and its trappings (see earlier post), but also think that tax reform that reduces loopholes favoring the wealthy and incentives/subsidies underwriting corporate welfare is in order.  A little balance between the prerogatives of capital and the needs of labor is called for.  

          There are powerful and entrenched interests in maintaining the status quo, that is to say, an ever increasing share of national income flowing to the top as well as an ever increasing proportion of total assets, sales and profits going to fewer producers (concentration and increasing power of oligopolies and monopolies).  

          From an efficiency and equity perspective these trends do not bode well for the working poor and middle-class–both groups which Romney managed incredibly to disparage in his 47% comment.

          Simply put, the fiscal and tax policy prescriptions from the Far Right (i.e. Randian universe) radically skew the system in favor of capital and discount labor.  I agree with the following sentiment expressed by an iconic Republican leader with whom you’re probably familiar:

          “Labor is the true standard of value…” 

          –Abraham Lincoln Feb. 15, 1861

          • Gregg Smith

            I agree with you in principle but I suspect we would butt heads on the details. However, if it was left to us I think we could find common ground and get something done. We need tax reform and IMHO you’re assessment is honest.

          • Bruce94

            No matter who is elected, hopefully common ground can be found where it matters in Congress, and something akin to Simpson-Bowles will be resurrected.  If tax reform and closing loopholes sounds plausible, maybe you’d agree that the Buffett Rule or something similar might make sense and be put on the table for serious consideration.    

          • m turn

            My understanding is that the Buffet Rule would only raise around 50-60 billion dollars over a decade. I’m not against the idea of raising taxes to help balance the budget, but I honestly look at the “rich people pay a little more” line to be political pandering, rather than a way forward…let alone that any real solution has to have bipartisan support and the entry token he’s using is polarizing.

          • TomK_in_Boston

            My concern is that “reform” is mainly a code work meaning, “look like you’re doing something but don’t make the wealthy pay a higher rate”

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Yeah, screw Simpson-Bowles. Full of Catfood Commissioners, and they couldn’t even approve a report, but the Sunday gasbags have taken them to be the last word in “common sense”. (Hint: That says more about the Sunday yakkers than common sense tax policy.)

            “Reform” is a word that used to mean something, even coming from inside the Beltway. Now anytime a Republican, Conservadem or Beltway Inbred says it, I hold onto my wallet.

    • notafeminista

      Because people know that even if you tax the scary rich people at 100% it.doesn’t.work.   Read your history.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Oh yeah, “people” know you can’t tax the rich, especially the rich and the dupes who drink their Kool-Aid.

        Good job following the official Party Line by referring to taxing “100%” when the oligarchs are paying the lowest or second lowest rate since 1929. Don’t forget to say we shouldn’t ask them to pay “even more” when they are paying some of the lowest rates ever.

        • notafeminista

          The lowest rate since 1929.   Good job.  You’ve been reading your history.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Even better, Etcha didn’t claim his charitable deductions so he would not go below his previously claimed minimum 13%. I guess when he loses he’ll fil an amended return. Once a con man, always a con man.

    • hennorama

      This “executive summary” from the Romneys’ tax preparer, PricewaterhouseCoopers (PWC) actually says nothing about what the Romneys PAID. They never use the word “paid.”
       
      (source: Romney’s own website – http://www.mittromney.com/disclosure/letter-from-pwc )
       
      Instead, PWC discusses “taxes owed” and their subsequent calculations of the Romneys effective tax rate and charitable deduction rate use “taxes owed” on “the federal income tax returns as prepared.”
       
      I do not claim that there is anything nefarious about this.  It may simply refer to how PWC had to reverse-engineer the Romneys’ 2011 tax return, claiming less than the allowable charitable contributions, for political purposes.  Since PWC did this, the Romneys paid more taxes than the “taxes owed.”  PWC could not use the term “taxes paid” about 2011, and may not have been able to say “taxes paid” for the period discussed, for similar reasons.
       
      If this happened once, it may have happened previously.  I make no claim about this.
       
      In addition, PWC indicated that they “prepared your (the Romneys’) annual federal and state income tax returns for each year…” of the 20 year period.  The use of the word “annual” leaves room for interpretation, since they did not say “ALL of your tax returns”.  For example, the Romneys may have had amended returns, prepared by someone other than PWC, during this period.  There could also have been unmentioned audits, resulting in changes to the Romneys’ tax liabilities.
       
      Again, I’m not saying any of this happened, merely pointing out possible explanations and alternatives.

      Written statements associated with political campaigns are quite carefully parsed prior to release.  The Romney campaign was asked about the use of “owed” vs. “paid”, by tax expert David C. Johnston.  The response – “We’re not answering that question.”

      • TomK_in_Boston

        Yeah, we really don’t know much. Seems the “average 20%” is an UNWEIGHTED average, so a relatively high rate on a relatively low income counts as much as a low rate on a high income year. Also we don’t know what deduction scams he used, so we don’t know how much he reduced his income before whatever % he claims is applied.

        In the never-ending stream of romney humor, after claiming that he wouldn’t be qualified to be POTUS if he paid more than necessary, he now skipped some deductions to stay above the magic 13%. He can file an amended return after the election :)

        This is great stuff, but it’s easy to lose the big picture: 13%, 14%, 20%, whatever – they’re all ULTRA LOW. A percent more or less is not the issue, the oligarchs should be paying around 50%

      • OnPointComments

        The moon landing was faked and staged in Hollywood.  Oops, excuse me, wrong conspiracy theory.  Your ruminations about owed vs. paid, and “annual” border on paranoid.  “Taxes owed” refers to the amount of tax calculated on the year’s tax return; since taxes aren’t always paid in the same year as the return (the 4th quarter estimated tax payment isn’t due until January of the succeeding year, and a balance due isn’t paid until April of the succeeding year), saying “taxes paid” would be misleading.  An amended return is still an annual return; it merely changes something that was on the annual return as originally filed.  The chances that the Romneys would have sneaked out and had someone else prepare an amended return, or would have been audited and not used PWC as their representatives, is nil.

        • hennorama

          I don’t know how many more times I should type “I make no claim ..” or “if” or “may” or “I’m not saying any of this happened” to indicate uncertainty.

          Do you require a disclaimer?

          How about ”The following is speculation and should not be interpreted in any way as a statement of fact nor as a conspiracy theory, as is said expressly in the actual words contained in the following comments.”

          Would that suffice?

          I made no claim that any of these things happened or were even likely to have happened, AS I SAID MULTIPLE TIMES.

          Sorry to have disturbed your certainty, or to have inconvenienced you in any way.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            I’ll guess that you have to put the disclaimer on the bottom of each of your posts or it will not count to OPC.

          • OnPointComments

            There is a room in hennorama’s house, similar to rooms used by child molesters to lure neighborhood children, but I make no claim about the room in hennorama’s house.  When asked about the room, hennorama said that children had never been lured to the room; I do not claim that there is anything nefarious about the statement, but hennorama could have said that children had never been in the room, but instead stated that children hadn’t been “lured” into the room.  Other child molesters have used rooms like this, and if it happened once it could happen again, but I am not making the statement that hennorama’s room was used in this manner.  Again, I’m not saying any of this happened, merely pointing out possible explanations and alternatives.
             

            The preceding is speculation and should not be interpreted in any way as a statement of fact nor as a conspiracy theory, as is said expressly in the actual words contained in the comments.
             

            I can qualify the statements as many times as possible, and add disclaimers, but in the end the intended damage is still done.

          • hennorama

            Touche! I have to admit that one made me actually laugh out loud. Very good, really.

            My only comment is in regard to your last sentence, about “…the intended damage…”

            To be clear – I do not intend damage on Mr. Romney, nor his campaign, nor anyone associated with him, nor anyone in here for that matter. I truly bear no ill will. I disagree with nearly everything Mr. Romney says and does, but I have no “intent to damage.”

            I realize some of what I say can be interpretted as having some ill intent, but there truly is none. I do at times express clear sarcasm directed at some individuals, and if that is considered ill will or intent to damage, fair enough. It’s generally intended as ridicule.

            My comments in here are intended to:

            1. Provide my opinion on various matters
            2. Provide facts about various topics, both for illustrative and argumentative purposes
            3. Refute arguments from others
            4. Present possible alternatives

            You will find that I qualify a great number of my remarks. I do this to indicate that there is some doubt about what I say, that there can be other ways to interpret the same words, facts, circumstances, events, etc.

            I also do this is direct counterpoint to many comments that use the words “everyone” or “all” or “never,” in an effort to refute the use of such absolute terms. Some of my comments are reductio ad absurdum, to demonstrate how many arguments fray at their absolute extremes.

            But really, no “intent to damage.”

          • OnPointComments

            Thank you for your reasoned response.  I’ll be the first to admit that I sometimes react too quickly and harshly, and with a bit too much sarcasm.  I am sure that we both want what is best for the country, even though we may differ on the means of achieving that goal.

          • hennorama

            You’re welcome.

            I agree that we both want what’s best for the country. In that spirit, I posted a “what can we agree on?” item, which may interest you.

            Solutions are impossible when we can’t agree on what the problems are, so I want to explore areas of agreement.

            Then, we can argue over the “means of acheiving that goal.”

            Best regards.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1550427523 Akilez Stamatelaky

    Who cares about Romney’s tax return, As far as we know he paid less tax than than you and me. he made $14 million and he only paid a million please. He will not win the Presidency. He will not rule this land of the 99%.

    • Gregg Smith

      He paid nearly $2 million which is about 14% of his income. 

      • Steve__T

        Yeah if I gave away 14% of my income I be living under a bridge

        • Gregg Smith

          You should thank Romney. He bought your infrastructure.

          • Steve__T

             If he caught me sleeping their I’d probably end up on a boat to China

          • Gregg Smith

            It depends on if you were sleeping under a bridge he bought.

          • Steve__T

             LOL the one to the Presidency

    • hennorama

      Mr. Romney’s tax returns are a window into his personal behavior.  That’s one reason people are interested in them.

      Really, it’s Mr. Romney’s hypocrisy about taxes that has been made abundantly clear from his “47%” remarks.

      Mr Romney says “I pay all the taxes that are legally required and not a dollar more,” yet he is critical of those who, fully complying with the tax code, pay no Federal Income Tax (FIT).  They too “pay all the taxes that are legally required and not a dollar more.”

    • William

       He paid a pretty good sum in taxes and gave a huge amount to charity.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Nice to see the wormhole from Williamworld is still open.

        He said, weeks ago, “I paid X in taxes”. Now he’s crafted a tax return, leaving off some deductions, so that X figure would be reached. And when we’ve stopped paying attention, nothing’s stopping him from filing a tax return amendment and get a lower rate.

        • notafeminista

          You can always hope. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Interesting.  Tom didn’t mention the Senator Brown vs. Professor Warren debate.  Not a good night for the Professor.

    “Can you imagine 100 Professor Warren’s in the senate?”

    Best line of the night.

    I actually learned something.  Who knew she worked for the insurance industry preventing payments to asbestos victims?   Crazy.  Really bad for her image.

  • JackInPortland

    The word “illegal” is an adjective, not a noun. 
    One of your speakers today needs to learn the difference and stop using the word to make people into “the other”.

    • Gregg Smith

      Yes, “illegal alien” is the proper term. Adjective/Noun.

      • VinceD2

        Or perhaps Jack would prefer “criminal trespassing ID and job stealing invader”.

        Yes, Illegal alien is the proper term. Changing the language does not change the fact.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Renoir-Gaither/615760671 Renoir Gaither

    Jack had it correct:  The 47% feeling victimized, dependent notion with the American public is racialized!  Romney played into the American hidden boogeyman:  race.  Weighted words used to deflect what should be the real debate (can’t be debated in this society now nor ever):  class.

    • Gregg Smith

      What am I missing? More whites are on welfare and food stamps than blacks. Is it your view that being black means being poor? Do you expect less from blacks because they are black? Where is the black angle coming from? Or were you talking about Asians?

      I’m serious, I want to understand you better before I assume you’re sick.

      • hennorama

        I think “it’s an age thing.”  The older one is, the more likely one is to recall the racial tension and divide of the past century, and the political use of racial stereotypes.  It’s nowhere near as bad today,
        but that doesn’t mean it’s out of bounds or never used.

        Because not everyone can “hear” it, this is termed a “dog whistle.”

        This is drawing on vicious old stereotypes.  Romney’s comments imply (please note I said ‘IMPLY’) the following:

        don’t pay taxes = dependent on government = entitled to food, housing, etc. = food stamps and welfare = “welfare queens” and “strapping young
        bucks” = lazy black people See, “in the old days” there was political talk of “welfare queens” and “strapping young bucks.”

        The saintly Ronald Reagan said this during the 1976 Presidential campaign, describing an unnamed (and fictitious) woman from Chicago’s predominately black South Side who was arrested for welfare fraud:

        “She has eighty names, thirty addresses, twelve Social Security cards and is collecting veteran’s benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. And she is collecting Social Security on her cards. She’s got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000.”

        Reagan, also in 1976, talked about working people angry about the “strapping young buck” using food stamps to buy T-bone steaks at the grocery store.  He said this while speaking in front of Southern
        audiences.

        Romney was also speaking in the South, in Rat’s Mouth (Boca Raton), Florida.

        Again, “it’s an age thing.”  Not everyone can hear it. 

        But you can look it up.  Just search for “Reagan welfare queen strapping young buck” to see for yourself.

        • Gregg Smith

          I know of the quotes. I fail to see why “young buck”or “welfare queen” has anything to do with race. You went through a list of this equals that which was fine until you got to “= black”. WTF? Why on earth shouldn’t a President address an issue of a woman who, ”has eighty names, thirty addresses, twelve Social Security cards and is collecting veteran’s benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. And she is collecting Social Security on her cards. She’s got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names. Her tax-free cash income is over $150,000″? It sure sounds like a welfare queen to me, she sounds selfish, manipulative and slimy. I have no idea what race she is. Reagan didn’t say and it doesn’t matter. 

          I get your dog whistle concept but vehemently disagree. I could agree some hear it but to accuse Romney of blowing it is an entirely different matter. It’s the worst possible projection of hate.

          • notafeminista

            If you can hear the whistle, then most likely you are the dog.

          • hennorama

            Egad!  I’m wounded by your scintillating repartee.  Please, stop!

            Please.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Har dee har. That’s a first-class job of needle threading, wherein you hold those viewpoints like everyone who’s racist on the right, but you can’t see anyone racist onthe right.

            It’s called your side’s base. Ronald Reagan started collecting political dividends on the racism you can’t see when he made  the famous speech about the woman from the South Side of Chicago (whose citizens are 95% black) and using the lies about “welfare queens” with “30 non-existant kids”.

            I can explain it to you. I can’t understand it to you.

          • Gregg Smith

            There are more whites on welfare than blacks. You are making a non-sensical argument. If you think it’s some kind of dog whistle only racist hear then I will point out I don’t hear it and you do.

          • Steve__T

              Sometime you don’t hear the whistle but, hear the Dog barking and some time you don’t know until you’ve been bit

          • hennorama

            Thanks for the reply.  I understand your comments and viewpoint, and I’m really glad that you DON’T “see why … this has anything to do with race,” as it is further demonstration that attitudes about race have evolved significantly.  This is a really good thing.

            Please note that I was not accusing Mr. Romney of anything.

            I was demonstrating how Mr. Romney’s comments can be “heard” by some as being racial.  The old (thank goodness) stereotypes of “welfare queen” and “strapping young buck” have racial connotations.  So equating (falsely) that not paying taxes = entitled to food, housing, etc. = food stamps & welfare is “heard” by some as “lazy black people.”

            The point is, some older people have the impression of those who are “on welfare” as being predominantly black.  We know this is empirically false, but this stereotype does remain.

            Mr. Reagan’s comments (in 1976, before he was elected President) were not about an actual person, as indicated from my parenthetical “(and fictitious)” usage.  He may have been referring to a Chicago woman, Linda Taylor, who was accused of using four aliases and cheating the government out of $8,000.  She was ultimately convicted of perjury and fraud.  You can see a bit of an NYT article about Reagan referring to her here:

            http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0614FB395910728DDDAC0994DA405B868BF1D3

            Reagan did not directly identify the woman’s race, but saying someone is from Chicago’s South Side means there’s well over a 90% chance the person is black.  Some zip codes there are over 98% African-American.

            Again, not everyone “hears” the dog whistle, which is a great thing.

    • StilllHere

      Racists see racism everywhere, look inside yourself.
      Classism is envy especially now that people can’t borrow like crazy.

  • Gregg Smith
    • Steve__T

      The only people that made any sense were President Fox and Huffington, Cheney just wants to start WWIII so Haliburton can rape us some more.

      • StilllHere

        It must be great how easily all the pieces fit together in your simplistic world view!

        • Steve__T

          Why don’t you go outside and scare some children It’s close enough to Halloween.
          The adults are trying to have a conversation.

          • OnPointComments

            I took your advice and scared some children.

          • Steve__T

            I thought you were StillHere thanks for the verification.

    • Steve__T

       Here’s a quote from a Republican President and General I don’t hear talked of often, ” Beware the military industrial compound”

      Pres Eisenhower 

  • Mouse_2012

    MEK got off the terrorist list,
     
    Good thing they paid people in Washington to Lobby for them(something illegal for all americans except our elites it seems)
     

    What’s that line “One man Terrorist is another man….” ?

    • hennorama

      Funny thing about acronyms – I know MEK as methyl ethyl ketone, a highly volatile, highly effective solvent, not some terrorist group.

      Although .. I guess MEK could use MEK for terrorist purposes, as it is quite flammable/explosive.

      • Mouse_2012

        Mojahedin-e Khalq

        • hennorama

          Yeah, thanks, read about ‘em and their acronym.  I get carried away posting offhand stuff at times, so bear with me, OK?

          Still, MEK COULD use MEK. But I digress again.

  • notafeminista

    Anyone see/saw what happened in Pakistan?

  • s4nelson

    While we are wringing our hands over the percentage of people who pay Federal income tax, a few facts are critical. Prior to the Great Recession of 2008, the percentage was about 40% (that and above through the Bush years up to the end of his tenure).

    The  recession and the consequent greater unemployment took nearly 600,000 people per month (the average job losses of late 2008 and early mid 2009) off the tax rolls. And there was another expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit, increases to which  had historically caused spikes in the number not paying Federal Income taxes for obvious reasons and as many have noted Republicans have traditionally liked the EITC and its apparent track record in getting people into work even if while they are paying other taxes are not paying Federal.

    And when Clinton ran budget surpluses before the 2001 (and subsequent 2009) EITC expansion, the percent paying Federal taxes was about 35%.

    Thus, if we were to get back to Clinton era surpluses it is not going to be necessary to have much more than the percent we will likely get back to when this recession is truly over (probably low to mid 40% range) to accomplish that end.

    Steve Nelson

    • hennorama

      Please do not leave out the expansion of the standard deduction, increases in the personal exemption, the Child Tax Credit (CTC), various education credits, the Adoption Credit, etc. 

      EITC favors and promotes work; the personal exemption, CTC and Adoption Credit favor families and the Hope, American Opportunity and other tax breaks for education favor higher learning.

      All terrible, apparently.

      • Gregg Smith

        And because of a lack of leadership the EITC goes away Jan.1.

        • OnPointComments

          Admittedly, I probably watch too much C-Span.  I was astonished to hear that having been in recess for the month of August, the Congress is once again going into recess until after the election.  Expiring tax rates and the fiscal cliff mean nothing to these people.  Watching C-Span definitely does not leave me with the impression that the senators and representatives are hard working people.

          • Gregg Smith

            I couldn’t agree more. This fiscal cliff is scary. The CBO predicts a nightmare which is illustrative as they at one time said we would have an extra $400 Billion this year if the tax cuts had not been extended. It’s not going to be pretty and our government (both sides) have failed us.
            C-span is a great source for news. I am always amazed at the difference between the reporting and the actual debate, hearing or speech.

          • hennorama

            It’s been more than 50 years since they’ve recessed this early.  Disgraceful.  Maybe we need 535 randomly selected citizens, plus a support staff of course, rather than this collection of inaction.

            Maybe they’ll stay home?

          • Gregg Smith

            Who was it that said the first 535 in the phone book would be better? They were most likely right.

          • Gregg Smith

            I guess I should say we have some good people on both sides of the aisle… but not the majority.

          • Steve__T

             On that we agree 100%

        • hennorama

          While not commenting directly on ”lack of leadership,” there are many hands involved in the so-called “fiscal cliff.”  After all, the spending cuts are contained mostly in the Bugdet Control Act of 2011.  No one acted alone is creating this.

          One intriguing possibility is that no one will act until Jan. 2ND, 2013.  On Jan.1. as you stated, taxes will go up and spending will be cut.

          Then, on Jan. 2ND, Congress will act, cutting the most of the raised taxes and restoring most spending cuts.  This will allow the Republicans who signed the Norquist pledge to comply with the letter of the pledge, if not the spirit.

          Speculation, of course, but intriguing speculation.

          • Gregg Smith

            When does Congress reconvene? I am pretty sure it won’t be by Jan. 2. I agree there are a lot of hands in this fiasco. It has been a pass the buck party. Republicans have been gutless. To reach a deal on the debt ceiling Congress ceded responsibility to a committee. The committee had an out and took it. The out was taxmegeddon. I say the buck stops with Obama. A little leadership could have gone a long way.

          • hennorama

            There’s virtually no doubt there will be a lame duck session after the Nov. elections, given all the pending issues.

            If not, Congress starts a new session on Jan. 3rd, 2013 unless they decide differently.

          • Steve__T

             Yeah but who listens to him.

          • Gregg Smith

            Good point, people only listen to leaders.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          Lemme guess: The same “lack of leadership” scuttled the veterans’ job bill the GOP gobstopped this week, which only “passed” 58-40.

  • WorriedfortheCountry
  • http://www.facebook.com/nathan.acosta.73 Nathan Acosta

    The release of the 2011 tax information (not actually filed yet) was a sad desperate attempt to change the conversation from the 47% video.

    • OnPointComments

      You are incorrect.  The return has been filed.

  • Mike_Card

    How much of his $2.25 million in charitable deductions went to his family foundation(s) that lend money to his boys to start their businesses? How much of the tax bill was offset by foreign tax credits? i.e., how much went for US benefit and how much went to the Caymans and Switzerland?

    • OnPointComments

      $199 of the charitable contributions went to the charitable trusts.  Romney’s federal income tax was offset by a 5.1% foreign tax credit; Obama’s federal income tax was offset by a 3.7% foreign tax credit.

      • Mike_Card

        Thanks.  It’s worthwhile to note that Obama’s assets are necessarily in a blind trust, while Romney’s aren’t.

        • OnPointComments

          You are incorrect.  All of Mitt & Ann Romney’s financial assets are in blind trusts that were established in 1995, 2002, and 2003.

          • Mike_Card

            The trustee of a blind trust really made the independent decision to invest $10 million in the Romney son’s start-up hedge fund? Or the horse? I won’t argue with facts, but those seem questionable.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            Yep. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

            There’s just such a difference between folks who have tax attorneys on speed dial and those of us (riffraff like me, maybe you) who wonder how much consulting with a tax attorney costs and how much to trust the ads in the Yellow Pages or reviews on Yelp.

            Two worlds.

          • notafeminista

            The phone didn’t come with the attorney’s number pre-programmed.  It’s not like the rest of the world has a secret they are refusing to share with you (wink wink nudge nudge).

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

            I’d get further explaning the differences between Mitt’s tax-avoidance abilities and mine if I were talking to my dog.

            You have comprehension problems the internet can’t fix.

          • notafeminista

            There is no difference.  You don’t like rich people because you think they’ve kept something from you.

          • notafeminista

            Of course those items seem questionable.  The Left needs to think Candidate Romney is deliberately and maliciously hiding something.    How can he not be?  He’s part of the so-called 1% and we know they are evil.

  • VinceD2

    I want to know what Romney is going to do to get some of those “47%” back to work.

    1) Will he renegotiate out “free trade” agreements to convert them to fair trade?
    2) Will he do ANYTHING to stop outsourcing? The Trade Deficit?
    3) Will he REALLY do about the 7-8 million illegals who hold jobs here?
    4) Will he end/modify the H1B visa program that has destroyed the careers of many STEM workers.

    Nah, business as usual. Soon it will be 57%…

  • Halgoleta

    I only heard a portion of your program on the turmoils in the Middle East but was struck by the comments of one of your guests, Trudi Rubin of the Philadelphia Inquirer.  This is the first time I have heard of and heard Ms. Rubin and I found myself in complete agreement with her rational, thoughtful and  balanced comments on our relations with the Arabic nations and Islam.  I did wonder whether she would agree that we should adopt the same position with a country like Israel which, under the leadership of Netanyahu, seems determined to drag us into a disastrous conflict with Iran.

  • Gregg Smith

    The White House’s initial narrative on the terrorist attacks has come completely unraveled. Masked men using military tactics is not an organic protest gone wild. Then the President went on Univision and lied. It’s embarrassing. We are spending tax payer money to run ads apologizing to our killers. It’s despicable. Obama is either an incompetent liar or he is the enemy. I honestly don’t know.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Welcome to Carterville part deux.

    • OnPointComments

      Every time I heard President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton, James Carney, or Susan Rice say that the terrorist attack had nothing to do with America or American policies, I couldn’t help but think of  that crude saying “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”

      • notafeminista

        And odd really, since it is the Left’s first inclination to hold the US responsible for everything wrong ever.

        How difficult it must have been for them to say otherwise.

      • Steve__T

         That’s On my head not leg

    • hennorama

      I partly agree.

      First, I want to again point out that the Cairo and Benghazi incidents were significantly different -  separated in time, apparent intent, ferocity, and outcome.

      To me, with all we know right now, excluding speculation,

      Cairo = “the video” protest and escalation
      Benghazi = terrorist attack.  Uncertain whether it was completely opportunistic or completely pre-planned, or both

      Also, I think we have a singular terrorist attack at this point, not plural “attacks.”

      I also believe that the subsequent incidents have been primarily “the video” protests and escalations.

      I believe Ambassador Rice’s remarks were made both with an abundance of caution (since not all the facts were known) AND politically motivated, to minimize possible political fallout.  Not terribly surprising, both at the time and in retrospect.

    • OnPointComments

      I am not surprised that recent polling shows the media is held in high disregard.  The Middle East is erupting in riots, and the top news story is Mitt Romney said that the embassy response was inappropriate (he’s right, the embassy response was inappropriate).  The Obama administration lies to the public for one week about the cause of the Middle East mayhem, and the lead media reports are about a secret recording of a fundraiser.  Our diplomats are murdered and tortured, yet the media wants to talk about Romney’s tax returns.  The spin on the White House Middle East narrative is unraveling, there are some reports that we may have ignored warnings about the imminent attacks, but the media is still front lining tax returns and secret recordings.

  • Gregg Smith

    I am heartened that real Muslims recognize the fact that Ambassador Stevens was their friend. America is the ally of those yearning freedom. The protest against his killing needs to be trumpeted. Hopefully President Obama will shout this from the mountain tops and support the effort. We’ll See.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/22/world/africa/pro-american-libyans-besiege-militant-group-in-benghazi.html?_r=2

  • hennorama

    Mr. & Mrs. Romney’s 2011 tax returns can be viewed/downoaded at Romney’s website, here:

    http://www.mittromney.com/disclosure/mitt/tax-return/2011/wmr-adr-return

    Glad he finally got around to releasing this return.  Too bad it still presents massive problems to his campaign.

    Just a few tidbits from the 379 page tax return:

    1.  More than half of the return involves the patriotic Romneys’ foreign holdings.  Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

    2.  The Romneys did not claim all available charitable deductions, foregoing $1,770,000 of legitimate deductions.

    Why would they do this?  Why overpay the hated Federal government by HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS?  Only to conform to an August campaign statement that Romney never paid an effective tax rate of less than 13 percent of his income!

    The Romneys’ financial trustee, R. Bradford Malt, said ”The Romneys’ generous charitable donations in 2011 would have significantly reduced their tax obligation for the year. The Romneys thus limited their deduction of charitable contributions to conform to the Governor’s statement in August, based upon the January estimate of income, that he paid at least 13% in income taxes in each of the last 10 years.”

    (source: Romney’s website  http://www.mittromney.com/blogs/mitts-view/2012/09/note-trustee-brad-malt )

    3.  Of the deductions claimed, some of the non-cash contributions were of shares of stock in Sensata Technologies. Sensata is owned by Bain Capital, the private equity firm founded by Mitt Romney, and is currently in the process of outsoucing 170 jobs to China.  Workers at their Illinois plant have to train their Chinese replacements.

    More to come from the 379 pages, no doubt.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       If Romney gave zip to Charity he would have paid 19% so I guess you are saying his generosity caused him some problems?

      • hennorama

        The Romneys are very generous, which is quite commendable.

        The point is that the tax return was reverse-engineered to get to an effective tax rate of at least 13%.

        I didn’t make this up.  It’s on Romney’s own website, from his own hand-picked financial trustee, word for word.

        The manipulation of the tax return for political purposes is the issue, not the Romneys’ generosity.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Of course — because he had previously claimed he never paid less than what, 13%?

          He kept this year in line with that claim.

          I was just pointing out the irony that his generosity last year required him to overpay his taxes to keep that promise.

          I don’t understand why it was necessary but the treasury got more cash.

          • hennorama

            Not to worry – they’ll amend the 2011 return to claim the add’l deductions in 2 or 3 years, once this issue is out of the limelight.

          • notafeminista

            You can always hope.

          • gonkers

            More interesting is why someone would NOT BE INTERESTED IN ROMNEY’S TAXES

          • hennorama

            Thank you for your exceptionally clear reply.

            Sarcasm aside, I have no idea what you mean by your comment.

            Perhaps you feel my use of ”out of the limelight” implies that I think Mr. Romney won’t be elected.  I don’t know what you mean.

            Let me clarify.  After the hyphen in my post, we can add “regardless of whether Mr. Romney is elected…”

          • notafeminista

            My comment is perfectly clear – especially when taken in context with your comment.   You believe that Mr. Romney is up to no good and in fact works tirelessly to make sure he gets not only his share but yours as well.  However, Mr. Romney is prevented from doing so (as you point out)because this story is in the limelight and once it goes away and the scrutiny is removed, you are absolutely certin that Mr. Romney will be back to his old Snidely Whiplash ways.  Or so you can hope.  The Left needs Mr. Romney to be the bad guy.

          • hennorama

            Wow.  OK, I agree that your 4 word comment “is perfectly clear” – to YOU.

            I never said that Mr. Romney “is up to no good” or “works tirelessly to make sure …” etc.

            My post was in reply to “Worried” who said Mr. Romney “..overpa[id] his taxes…” and “I (Worried) don’t understand why …”

            I guess you missed the possible humor/irony/playful nature of my linking “Worried”‘s screenname to my use of the phrase “Not to worry.”

            My apologies.  I will spell it out more clearly the next time I try to be humorous/ironic/playful in my remarks.

            (If you detect sarcasm in my comments – congratulations!  You got something right!)

            Further, my contention that the Romneys will later amend their 2011 Fed. tax return, thereby correcting the overpayment “Worried” was discussing, and allying “Worried’s” worries, was based on Mr. Romney’s oft repeated statements.

            Over and over, Mr. Romney says “I pay all the taxes that are legally required and not a dollar more. I don’t think you want someone as the candidate for president who pays more taxes than he owes.”

          • notafeminista

            The sarcasm is difficult to miss.  And your comments are quite clear.  I stand by my original post.

    • OnPointComments

      Perhaps “more than half of the return” concerned foreign holdings if you are talking about the physical number of pages in the tax return, but his foreign income is about 15% of reported income.  Mitt Romney has no control over Bain Capital or the decision by Sensata to outsource jobs.

      • hennorama

        Yes, I was talking about the actual number of pages (I’d skip pgs. 42 thru 275, for example).

        Yes, Romney has no current control over Bain.  Never said he did.  It just looks bad, given everything else that’s come before, and the impressions that are out there.

        Just “bad optics.”  His tax return is voluminous, in large part due to foreign investments.  He got a deduction donating stock of a company outsourcing to China.

        Not helpful to his campaign.

        • OnPointComments

          By the way, the Obama’s patriotic foreign income was 23% of 2011 reported income, compared with 15% for the Romneys.

          • hennorama

            I’ll take your word for it.  And also that my use of the word “patriotic” was indeed perjorative, which I presume is your point.

            However, Mr. Romney is the candidate who has the problem of his remarks about “the 47%,” the problem of political manipulation of his tax return, the problem of the hypocricy of saying he pays “…all the taxes that are legally owed,  not a dollar more,” and then criticizes those who pay no Fed. income taxes, fully in compliance with the tax code, who also pay “…all the taxes that are legally owed,  not a dollar more.”

            And not Pres. Obama.

          • OnPointComments

            Aha.  I suspected the significance of foreign income would diminish since the Obamas beat the Romneys on that count.  You didn’t disappoint.

  • JGC

    There was sort of a mini-outburst from Ann Romney on Iowa Radio.  The pressure must be tremendous for someone not used to the relentless negative scrutiny, and the stress will not help her manage her multiple sclerosis symptoms. It is interesting that both Ann Romney and Michelle Obama have had their lives touched by this devastating disease.

    • hennorama

      I say “hands off spouses and families,” since they are not candidates. (not that I interpret your remark as being critical of Ann Romney).

      I’m glad her plane landed safely today, after the “smoke in the cabin” emergency.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Hey some compassion from both you.  Very nice to see.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

          I’ve been on “media blackout” and didn’t hear about Ann Romney’s plane.

          Phew. Relieved it was just a “smoke in the cabin” thing.

          After the likes of Carnahan and Wellstone (and others I’m forgetting) does it just seem that I’m remembering these incidents more because they happen to folks on the campaign trail? It can’t be that these crashes or near-crises happen more than regular flying (on the same size planes, at the same time of year), can it?

  • Gregg Smith

    Mike Card, I am replying up here because I want everyone to see this. You claimed Romney enjoyed firing people. I guess you thought I never heard or thought about the quote but I gave you the chance to reread it before you doubled down on the meaning. I asked you to do so. Here is the quote directly from your accurate link: “I like being able to fire people.” You ignored the words “being able”. He did not say, “I like firing people”. 

    So, what is the alternative? Obviously it would be: “I don’t like being able to fire people”. Have you ever been an employer? What if you could not fire crackheads, slackers or incompetence? What if you could only hire but could not fire? Is that good business?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Of course Romney was actually talking about the ability to firing an incompetent service provider.  I think the example he gave was having the power to give an insurance company that was screwing you the heave ho.

      • StilllHere

        Exactly, thanks for the context.

    • JGC

      Come on, Gregg!  The Bain Capital examples do not show a culling of workers due to addiction concerns or attendance problems or poor workmanship.  Bain showed a pattern of coming in and structuring deals so that:  heads –  Bain wins,  and  tails – the taken over company loses.  If Romney liked to be able to fire people, I am sure it was nothing personal, it was just good business – for Bain.

      And then these people, who found themselves out of work due to the business consolidation/creative destruction decisions made by the Bain consultants and management, only earned the enMitty of their former employers: they were now part of the dreaded 47%, bingeing on unemployment benefits, perhaps even turning to Social Security.  ”And so my job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”

      • notafeminista

        …and if they had been fired for having been addicts or thieves or just general malcontents, you would find that satisfactory?

        • Mouse_2012

          Irrelevant conclusion

          • notafeminista

            Say, speaking of, did you actually read that Hitchens column you keep posting? 

          • Mouse_2012

            Why ask a question without even looking if I responded?

            ohhhh forgot who I was dealing with. 

          • notafeminista

            Smells like a “no” to me.  Else you’ve interpreted it badly. 

            Either of which is possible.

          • Mouse_2012

            So you didn’t take the time to see if I responded than? 

            Talk about interpreting things badly.

          • notafeminista

            Obviously you’ve not read it.

            On an only semi-related note, you are aware that Hitchens supported the action in Iraq, no?

        • JGC

          Aye yi yi, notafeminista and StillHere; do you think the downsizing and offshoring of U.S. jobs should be equated with employees found  stealing or being caught on a drunken binge?  By the way, if you are writing this from your workplace, you are stealing time and bandwidth from your employer.  And if you are writing this from your home as an unemployed person, you may be a part of Romney’s dreaded 47% moochers. And if you are a retired person or vet collecting government benefits, Romney definitely sees you as part of the mooching problem with clearly too much time on your hands.
          Time to find a job and pay those taxes that the Romneys are so successful in avoiding. 

          • notafeminista

            1)I’m not at work, not unemployed and not retired. 

            2)In light of the left’s view of “American exceptionalism” how is it that an American is more entitled to a job than a Guatemalan or an Indonesian or a Vietnamese?

    • Mike_Card

      It’s pretty clear that we don’t agree on much of anything, and that is probably what keeps the conversation lively.  That said, I’ll concede your point about semantics.

      While we’re on the topic: Yes, I have hired people and I have fired people. In my view, the decision to fire people is one that indicates poor hiring judgement.

      Unless I’m really bad at reading my own original comment, or recalling why I commented, it had to do with Willard’s managerial abilities when it comes to turning around a failing enterprise: i.e., his presidential campaign.

      • notafeminista

        So if you hire an employee who then starts stealing from your company, it’s your fault?

        • Mouse_2012

          non-sequitur

          • notafeminista

            No, Mike specifically said the “the decision to fire people is one that indicates poor hiring judgement.”  As in obviously this person should not have been hired in the first place and now necessitates firing him/her.

            So.  If an employee is fired regardless of by whom, is it the employer’s fault for having hired them in the first place?

          • Mouse_2012

            Yes, 

            non-sequitur. add in Begging The Question

            Please insert 25 cents and try again  

          • notafeminista

            Yes or no.  If an employee needs to be fired, is it the fault of the employer or not?  Bad hiring judgement or infractions committed by the employee.  Your choice.

          • Mouse_2012

            Forgot 

            Causal Reductionism 

  • notafeminista

    Geez, even NPR gets it now.  See headline on home page with regards to Candidate Romney releasing his 2011 tax statements.

  • notafeminista

    Also from Lincoln…

    “No country can sustain, in idleness, more than a small percentage of its numbers. The great majority must labor at something productive.”  September 30, 1859

    • Mouse_2012

      Appeal To Authority

  • notafeminista

    Oh, this one’s good too –

    “I don’t believe in a law to prevent a man from getting rich; it would do more harm than good. So while we do not propose any war upon capital, we do wish to allow the humblest man an equal chance to get rich with everybody else.”   March 6, 1860.

    • Mouse_2012

      Appeal To Authority

    • Joseph_Wisconsin

       That is indeed a great quote.  It is something either Romney or Obama would gladly say. In fact here is another quote from Lincoln that Obama used in his last State of the Union address:

      “That government should do for people only what they cannot do better by themselves, and no more.”

      So as one can see it is all up to how one interprets a quote.  Returning to the quote that you cited Romney would say that a poor black born to single mother  in the ghetto has as much chance as Romney to get rich as he did being born to a wealthy CEO.  So the kid’s mom should not be offered public housing, and food stamps, Medicare, or welfare so that she and her child will be motivated.  Then the kid will have an equal chance to become as wealthy as Romney.  The government should just get out of the way and let everyone compete on an equal basis.  Obama indeed sees things differently.

      Another thought.  I always find it amusing when Republicans today try and conflate themselves with Lincoln.  As far as I am aware the only major demographic group that Romney polls ahead in is white males, perhaps not even among white males if one excluded the South?  Didn’t a recent poll show Romney with 0%! support among blacks?  Doesn’t Obama lead about 2 to 1 among Hispanics?  Why the Republicans have even managed to put themselves behind among white women!  Cue Ann Romney to tell women how much the Republican Party loves them.  LOL.

      “The demographics race we’re losing badly,” said Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (S.C.). “We’re not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term.”

      • OnPointComments

        Why exclude white males in the South from Romney’s demographic?

        • Joseph_Wisconsin

           Oh just a hypothetical question that I would be curious to know the answer to.   My strong intuition would be that if Dixie was to be separated out that the numbers for Obama would improve among white males.  Anyone that claims that there is not lingering racial prejudice in the country, and this is not stronger in the South is talking out of their ass. That and the South is much more conservative on social issues and has a higher percentage of evangelical Christians.  That was one of the incongruous things about Romney’s 47% comment. In the south a great number of whites do not have sufficient income to pay income tax and receive government benefits yet would not consider voting Democrat, certainly not for a black Democrat. All of this is in speaking of national poll results of course.  

          I found this link very interesting showing how it is state by state results that matter and how tough winning in the Electoral College is looking for Romney all presented in a clear manner.

          http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2012/09/201291763829868734.html

          • Gregg Smith

            I’ve lived in the South all my life. I have known racist. Many of them voted for Obama. With all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. People can have preconceived notions and still judge a man by the content of his character. We do that in the South. A handshake means more than a contract. Obama fooled many.

            In think Affirmative Action is racist a hell. I think the notion that things like the birther movement being racist is a non-sequitur believed by racist. The notion that talking about welfare is talking about blacks is racist. I find the blue states to be more racist with their excusing Obama for his miserable performance. After all he’s black, how much can we expect. The bar must be lowered so he can blame any criticism on racism. He’s a poor black victim.

            Its’s sick. 

          • OnPointComments

            Liberals always reserve a second standard for those whom they don’t hold responsible for their actions.  Liberals are narcissists and see themselves as the savior and protector of those they view as incapable of standing up for themselves; it’s paternalistic and demeaning, and morally arrogant, but they see it as noble.  You have to ask yourself who is really prejudiced:  the person who believes in one set of standards, or the liberal who believes that without themselves as the deliverer of liberal programs and controls, the down-trodden have no hope.
             

            The second standard is pervasive:  Islamic terrorists attack and murder, and liberals mitigate their response by saying they understand that the terrorists’ religious beliefs were offended.  Can you imagine offering this solace to members of the Westboro Baptist Church? Neither group deserves it, but the moral arrogance of liberals requires two standards:  one for some, and one for them, and the liberals decide who is “them.” 

          • Gregg Smith

            Brilliant.

          • Joseph_Wisconsin

             I also lived in the South a good part of my life, most recently for several years in the late 1990s.  I still have a number of relatives living in Georgia, and among most of those their racial views are something we have made peace with to just not discuss in the interest of harmony.  Oh, say it was you was it not that a few days ago asserted that whites calling President Obama a n—er was not in anyway a sign of racism, was it not?  How about jungle bunny?  Coon?  

            Just keep whistling Dixie.  The polls do not lie.  Tell me how many blacks have been elected to the US Senate from the South since the end of Reconstruction?  How many governors?  Back to my original query about how white vote well break for Romney in the South, versus elsewhere. Whoever wins the exit polling usually done should provide an answer. 

          • Gregg Smith

            No dude, I never wrote anything of the sort.

          • OnPointComments

            That is the reason I inferred from your comment, but I wanted to hear it from you.  If white males in the South supporting Romney is evidence of racism, is black support of Obama evidence of racism too?

          • notafeminista

            Support for President Obama in Detroit might be racism I think.

          • Gregg Smith

            Obama won the South.

      • OnPointComments

        “I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means.  I think the best way of doing good to the poor is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it.  In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer.  And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” 
        –Benjamin Franklin

        • Joseph_Wisconsin

           LOL.  So is this something the Romney campaign put out within the last week?  Or Crossroads GPS?  FOX News maybe?  Or some popular right wing blogger site?  I ask because I have been suddenly encountering that 1766 quote from Benjamin Franklin all over these last few days.  Posting on Facebook pages of conservative friends.  In a letter to the editor in the Friday edition of the local weekly newspaper in my very small town. On other discussion forums. Here obviously.  It can’t be a coincidence.

          So you people just keep going farther and farther back in time with these quotes—the 19th Century—the 18th Century—?.

          Yes I know that much of the current Republican Party would like to undo most of the 20th Century, and return to the blessed Gilded Age.  It’s not going to happen though.  It’s a different country and a different world we live in.

          • Mouse_2012

            The quality of “Foxs and Friends”(right-wing propaganda) is it’s sheep repeat nearly word for word what there told. It’s good for the right because it reinforces a certain POV and guards them from other POV. This could be good for other since they often repeat things word for word it’s easy to trace who said it and where they got it from.

  • OnPointComments

    Dinesh D’Souza’s movie on Obama: 2016 is now on YouTube.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDY6v8KdSYs&feature=player_embedded
    This video is unlisted. Only those with the link can see it.

    • Gregg Smith

      Thanks.

      • Mouse_2012

        of course you would

        • Gregg Smith

          When Obama’s brother needed money for a medical procedure he went to D’Souza. 

          • Mouse_2012

            So? 

            Still doesn’t take away that the movie is an slanderous piece promoted to racist. beside D’Souza offered money to his half brother. 

          • Gregg Smith

            So? Obama is not his brothers keeper. The race angle is sick.

          • Mouse_2012

            liking the video is sick. 

          • Gregg Smith

            No, it’s the job the media would not do in 2008 and D’Souza is a saint for making it. Posting it is fine unless you think the first amendment is trash. And it wasn’t even stupid like this one that evidently is news.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM

    • Mouse_2012

      Slanderous hit piece made for racist. 

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Save the racism charges for where it exists.  You end up protecting racists when you falsely cry racism.

        • Mouse_2012

          D’Souza is a perfect example of an Racist. Why not admit it? 

          D’Souza coin ”
          “Anti-colonial”  which in itself is not even plausible. So why did he do it? of course to apeal to the racist as presenting Obama as “The Other”. Dog whistles all over that movie.

          http://movies.yahoo.com/news/fact-check-anti-colonial-obama-not-plausible-175336789.html 

        • Mouse_2012

          D’Souza then goes through a list of actions Obama has taken as president to support his thesis. Many of them don’t hold water:
          — D’Souza rightly argues that the national debt has risen to $16 trillion under Obama. But he never mentions the explosion of debt that occurred under Obama’s predecessor, Republican George W. Bush, nor the 2008 global financial crisis that provoked a shock to the U.S. economy.
          — D’Souza says Obama is “weirdly sympathetic to Muslim jihadists” in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He does not mention that Obama ordered the raid that killed Osama bin Laden and the drone strikes that have killed dozens of other terrorists in the region.
          —D’Souza wrongly claims that Obama wants to return control of the Falkland Islands from Britain to Argentina. The U.S. refused in April to endorse a final declaration on Argentina’s claim to the islands at the Summit of the Americas, provoking criticism from other Latin American nations.
          —D’Souza says Obama has “done nothing” to impede Iran’s nuclear ambitions, despite the severe trade and economic sanctions his administration has imposed on that country to halt its suspected nuclear program. Obama opposes a near-term military strike on Iran, either by the U.S. or Israel, although he says the U.S. will never tolerate a nuclear-armed Iran.
          — D’Souza says Obama removed a bust of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill from the Oval Office because Churchill represented British colonialism. White House curator William Allman said the bust, which had been on loan, was already scheduled to be returned before Obama took office. Another bust of Churchill is on display in the president’s private residence, the White House says.

        • StilllHere

          He’s protecting himself.

  • Mouse_2012

    Any Conservative takers on what Romney Taxes would be if he took his full deductions?

    Than assuming he’s the Free Market Capitalist he claims to be why would he over pay the government if he didn’t have to?

    My view is he did so to make sure the % of taxes he paid in didn’t drop below 13% this year. 

    Or maybe he just wants to pay more taxes? Which he proudly said he did.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Who cares?

      What would Romney’s effective rate be if he donated to charity the identical dollar figure as Biden?

        Try 19%.

    • hennorama

      I’m not “Conservative” by the definition of self-described “conservatives” but I will take a shot.  Their 2011 Federal effective tax rate would be in the 9% to 12% range.

      No doubt this has already been calculated by tax experts, which I am not.  My conclusion was a rough “back of the envelope” calculation.

    • hennorama

      There is no doubt that the Romneys’ 2011 tax return was reverse-engineered for political purposes.  Mr. Romney’s hand-picked personal financial trustee, Brad Milt, says so:
       
      “The Romneys’ generous charitable donations in 2011 would have significantly reduced their tax obligation for the year. The Romneys thus limited their deduction of charitable contributions to conform to the Governor’s statement in August, based upon the January estimate of income, that he paid at least 13% in income taxes in each of the last 10 years.”
       
      You can view this on Mr. Romney’s website, right here:
       
      http://www.mittromney.com/blogs/mitts-view/2012/09/note-trustee-brad-malt

      • Gregg Smith

        I don’t understand the significance.

        • hennorama

          Gregg, seriously?

          Romney says he pays only the taxes that are legally due, “and not a dollar more.”

          He criticizes those who pay no Federal income tax, legally and fully in compliance with the tax code.

          He says “I don’t pay more than are legally due and frankly if I had paid more than are legally due I don’t think I’d be qualified to be President.”

          He says he never paid less than a 13% effective Federal tax rate.

          Then, since he can’t make his 2011 Federal tax return agree with all that he has said, he has PWC prepare his 2011 return to ensure he conforms to at least ONE thing he says about his personal taxes, the 13% effective tax rate.

          You “don’t understand the significance.”  ??

          • Gregg Smith

            Nope, I don’t.

        • notafeminista

          They know Candidate Romney is hiding something.  They need him to be hiding something to validate and affirm their opinions and assertions of him.  If their so called “99 percent” had taken a 40% hit on their income in one year, it would be cause for rioting in the street.  But because Candidate Romney took that kind of hit, he is immediately suspect.

          In their eyes, Candidate Romney is always immediately suspect.

      • hennorama

        BTW, this reverse-engineering of the 2011 Fed. tax return is much more likely due to the fact that the Romneys’ 2011 income was nearly $13.7 million, rather than the much larger $20.9 million they had estimated in a January statement.  Why their reported income was about $7.2 million less than they expected in January 2012 is unexplained.

        • OnPointComments

          I’ll explain it to you.  When someone has investments in 3rd party entities which they don’t control, there is commonly no way to hazard a guess as to the income an entity will report in the next year.  The IRS gives you a “safe harbor” to avoid penalties on underpaying your quarterly estimated tax payments:  if you base your payments on the prior year’s income, there will be no penalties.  The Romney’s estimate of income for 2011 was based on their 2010 income.

          • hennorama

            Thank you.  Good point about the lack of predictability of income from 3rd party entities.  Makes sense.  They also may have chosen to not realize some capital gains in 2011.

            The Romneys over-complied with “safe harbor” by paying in 2011 estimated payments of 114% of their 2010 liability rather than the required 110%.

            Nothing wrong with that.

            The total they paid in included their entire $1.6 million refund from 2010, which they applied to 2011 when they filed the 2010 return on Oct. 15, 2011.  At that point it seems clear they still thought their 2011 income would be much higher than it turned out to be.

            The January statement shows the same thing.  Turns out they were off by about 35%.

            Pretty big miss.

        • hennorama

          UPDATE: The $7.2 million drop in his expected income was explained by the Romney campaign as a result of variations in his investment returns that he could not have foreseen in January.

          (source: LA Times  http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-romney-taxes-20120922,0,2927415.story )

          OK, good.  Now we know.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

        Sometimes I’d just wish Mitt could acknowledge he has the assets to play with money and tax attorneys and accounts which even the E-Trade Baby hasn’t got, and therefore Mitt gets to create a lower rate for himself than the hundreds of millions who get a paycheck taxed at labor rates.

        But then I remember his tin ear, and cringe at the thought of how awful he would sound delivering that message, and that wish goes away.

    • William

       If Romney had done a lot less in his life how much money would he have denied the U.S. Treasury? Let us say he retired years ago and lived on 60k a year? Paid a few thousand dollars in taxes and not the millions he has paid over the years. Would that make the Liberals happy? Everyone work hard enough to only pay a few thousand dollars and kick back? No drive, no ambition, just “enough”…

      • Mouse_2012

        Didn’t answer my questions? what would have been his tax rate if he took the full deduction? As well why would a american overpay in taxes if they didn’t need to? Doesn’t sound to republican to me. 

        How about yourself?

        • William

           I don’t know since I’m not a tax expert that looks at people’s taxes and makes recommendations how to pay them.

           There are a lot, a whole lot, of people in this country that are on the receiving end of those millions of dollars Romney paid over the years. Instead of attacking him Obama should be praising him.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXSANCUDPIKQSPID5KT2U4XK5Y TF

      More taxes?

      Even a riffraff like me knows the power of the 1040x extended return.

      Let’s just say that “the numbers are not all in” regarding Mitt’s effective tax rate. We won’t know what it is until he can’t amend more deductions and lower it for FY 2010, and the deadline for that is, what, 2013?

      Declare one tax rate paid, in public, while retaining the right to lower it, years later, in private?

      Sweet, sweet gig.

      • Mouse_2012

        Don’t worry when that info comes out, the media will be sure to find so democrats(died or alive) that did something similar. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Next time Harry Reid whines about someones taxes he  should be asked how a lifelong bureaucrat became a multimillionaire and maybe he should show his tax returns.

    Harry Reid owes Romney an apology.

    • OnPointComments

      It takes hypocrisy, arrogance, and conceit for Harry Reid to launch his screed about Mitt Romney’s tax returns while refusing to adhere to the same standard for himself.  Hollywood central casting could not find a more realistic Uriah Heep for current times.  An apology requires sincerity and humility, of which Harry Reid has none.

    • Mouse_2012


      how a lifelong bureaucrat became a multimillionaire”

      Paul Ryan?

      • Gregg Smith

        Ryan’s net worth was $382K until he married money, which is not corrupt. Harry Reid, not so much.

  • Steve__T

    Disqus strikes again

  • Steve__T

    And again

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    If Obama is so far ahead, why are they running ads in NYC?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    The failure to play Obama “you can’t change Washington from the inside” is disgraceful.

    • Gregg Smith

      He was all about changing Washington during the campaign. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    There seems to be an error under the heading Guests. Trudy Rubin is listed as a columnist rather than a paid spokesperson for the Obama campaign. 

    • Gregg Smith

      It wasn’t an error, that’s the way they roll.

  • JGC

    …No more hunger and thirst, but first be a person who needs people;  people who need people are the luckiest people in the world…     (Jule Styne and Bob Merrill)

    We’ve given all you people need to know and understand about our financial sitution…  (Ann Romney)

    …And so my job not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility  and care for their own lives.   (Mitt Romney)

    …People who need people, are the LUCKIEST PEOPLE… in… the…world………. 

    • Gregg Smith

      “But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it” -Nancy Pelosi

      “…we are not going to be in a position to talk at all about what the U.S. government may or may not be learning about how any of this this happened — not who they were, not how it happened, not what happened to Ambassador Stevens, not any of it…” -Obama’s State Department

      “But I don’t want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess.” -President Obama
        

       ”I’m going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We’ll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies — they’ll get a seat at the table, they just won’t be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we’ll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process.” -BO

      That last one didn’t happen. He also broke his promise to make bills public for five days before signing. He has his hearings on transparency behind closed doors, no press allowed.

      It’s kind of silly to gripe at Ann Romney.

  • hennorama

    Comments in this forum makes it quite clear that we disagree on many things.  I’d like to try to turn the discussion around.  Anyone care to join?

    I think we agree on some very basic stuff, so perhaps we could start by identifying those things.

    What can we agree on?  Let’s talk about some economic topics.  I think we can agree on the following (the wording is neutral in tone so as to not incite argument):

    1. Too many people are out of work
    2. 47% of Americans not paying Federal Income Tax (FIT) is too high a percentage
    3. Not paying FIT does not mean one is dependent on government
    4. Total Federal debt is large and should be reduced
    5. Current Federal deficit is large and should be reduced

    If you agree with 1 thru 5, please [Reply] with “I agree.”

    If you disagree, please [Reply] with “I disagree.”  Add whatever
    comments you wish, but try to be specific and brief, OK?

    This may be a fool’s errand, but I’m curious about what we agree on.

    • Gregg Smith

      #1 is a no-brainer.

      #2 is also true however half of the country does receive government assistance which is also too high IMO. Romney’s mistake was to conflate the two. They overlap but are not the same people. The 47% that will not support Romney no matter what are yet another group conflated into the equation.

      #3 is true but it does mean they didn’t help “build that” so they benefit from the internet, bridges, roads etc. for nothing. Of course this argument is severely flawed but it’s the logical conclusion of the Democrats premise. If the achievements of the rich are being discredited because they had the same infrastructure then it goes both ways.

      #4 & #5 depend on what “reduced” means. Both can be reduced and we still have disaster looming. They both need to be eliminated starting with the deficit. 

      So no, we cannot agree on all 5 as written and where we do agree the politics of spin will negate it.

      • hennorama

        Thanks for you comments.  They do indicate SOME level of agreement on all 5.

        I understand your views and again want to point out that I’m trying to see where there is agreement.  I made an effort to avoid anything that would indicate policy measures, levels of desired change, or measures to change the 5 items.

        One comment about your #2, which is a bit of a semantic one: I believe the data/studies you draw your “half the country” comments from discuss “half of US households” having at least one member receiving some form of government benefit.  This differs a bit from “half of the country does receive government assistance.”

        Here’s an article discussing the issue:

        http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/05/26/number-of-the-week-half-of-u-s-lives-in-household-getting-benefits/?KEYWORDS=number+of+the+week

        I suspect that my #3. will generate the most comments, as this has been in the news of late.  I thought about excluding it, to test agreement in a more concentrated way.

        Thanks again for your coments.

        • Gregg Smith

          Fair point on #2 but a spouses often file as one and assistance benefits the entire household… but I hear ya’. I think all 3 of the  overlapping dynamics are a problem.

          #3 is in the news but only from one perspective. I honestly believe what I wrote and wonder if you see the dichotomy of Obama stance.

          • hennorama

            See, we do agree on a number of things.  Exactly my original point.  BTW, I did think about using the “49% of households” figure as another of my thing we might agree on.

            As to the controversy over Pres. Obama’s “you didn’t build that” remarks – this has been taken completely out of context, which I’m confident you know.  The Pres. was at a firehouse, talking about the role of government in the economy, and how we’re all in this together.  He wasn’t discrediting anyone’s acheivements.

            The full remarks can be viewed here:

            http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/did-obama-say-if-youve-got-a-business-you-didnt-build-that/

    • Mouse_2012

      Good luck, but your dealing with people who deal outside of facts and figures even when shown their sources they base such belief is false, inaccurate, misleading or blatantly false you will still  here such repeated as if proven facts.

      Not all of course but the comment below me is a great example.

      Stay tune for talking points,distortions what not. 

      • Gregg Smith

        Are you a man or are you a mouse? I typically stay way from getting personal but your new moniker fits. You throw out crazy accusations without backing them up. There is nothing in my comment that “is false, inaccurate, misleading or blatantly false”, if there is you did not cite it. And you replied to hennorama with out addressing any of his notions. If you have an opinion, give it. If you have an accusation, give evidence. Or just be a troll who is small like a mouse. 

        Hennorama and I don’t agree a lot and butt heads sometimes but he/she is trying to keep the debate honest. I respect that. Why can’t you?

        • Mouse_2012

          yadda,yadda,

          Your dishonest, you prove so day and day out. 

          As for crazy accusation I recall you throwing out some some  on Egypt that I debunked than you linked to a source linking to the one I debunked(sleeping with dead spouses if you don’t recall).  

          You cite uncredible sources to make your claims. Ultrax has owned you time and time again he you make the same claims, people/sites you cite are Rush L, Ann Coulter, Newsbusters, Weekly Standard, The National Review. If you truly wanted a honest discussion you could always find not so Openly Partisan sources but you don’t 

          I stand by my comment 

          • Gregg Smith

            Please. You cite the BBC, Al Jazeera and NPR. But what’s sillier is you will ignore the substance if it is posted by someone you don’t like even if it is not an opinion and is quoting directly. You will see a video that damns someone with their own words in context and attack the person who posted the video. Shooting the messenger is not a rebuttal. And you have not said what I wrote that was not true. 

            Ultrax lives in an fantasy world. He make up his own numbers that are not represented in any column in any government document. He says a half trillion dollar increase in revenue is a decrease because it would have been more IF Clinton were still king … or something. In his world all that matters is the party in office and the top tax state. He’s silly.

            I barely remember the dead spouse thing but I don’t need to have the last word. Don’t assume you debunked me just because I ignore your ramblings or an Al Jazeera link. Radical Muslims stone women to death for adultery if they are gang raped. There are “honor killings”. When Lara Logan was gang raped she said her screams made the animals even more frenzied in their barbarism. How many Muslim women have been disfigured by acid in their face or brutal beatings? Lots. I don’t know what happened in the end, as I recall I posted a proposed law, I’m pretty sure I didn’t say it was law. It is completely plausible that husbands would do this and the radicals would codify it into law. Having said all that, I enjoy being corrected if legit. I don’t want to be wrong, ideology be damned.

          • Mouse_2012

            I attack your source because there one-sided and openly biased and if you wanted to be honest you can link to more objective sources but you don’t 

            As for the bbc and the others they at least attempt to be objective(which none of your sources do). Thanks for proving my point 

            “Gregg
            Collapse
            C’mon man! “The Weekly Standard” is a respected publishment. It’s Barnes’ and Kristol’s gig. Neocon central. Don’t hate on them.”

          • Gregg Smith

            Dude, just because a site does not post a video of Obama lying (or something similar) doesn’t mean he didn’t lie. It just show the complicity of the lefty press to cover it up by lies of omission. 

          • Mouse_2012

            What?

      • hennorama

        My view of everyone in here is that we all deserve the benefit of the doubt, the words typed here should be taken with a grain of salt, and those making comments are of fine upstanding character, truly bear no malice toward anyone, and deserve respect.

        One important thing to remember is the nature of forums such as this, with the relative anonymity of posters and the non-simutaneous nature of the discourse, tend greatly toward hyperbole and bluster.

        I daresay that many of the comments would never be made in an in-person discussion.  Certainly they would be toned down, for simple politeness and respect.

        • Mouse_2012

          You think, but it was none other than Onpoint where I received threats of harm for months by a certain female poster. 

    • Mouse_2012

      1. Ending subsides to company that outsource would help than creating barriers for countries that rely on slave labor or inhumane working condition would even the playing field. 

      2. Yet both sides are against raising any taxes, on that 47% must of the taxes are backdoor taxes presented as fees so while a x# of people may have been taken off the tax rolls there still equally or some cases paying more in additional fees they once didn’t  or were required to do so.  This wouldn’t change until there’s an actual honest debate that Americans don’t pay enough in taxes and when In wars Taxes should go up to pay for them.

      3. True, yet to admit such is a political chance to target ones opponent and still pays political dividends since the target audience believe there not part of the group taking from government.

      4. Total Federal debt is large and should be reduced, than Americans need to decided if the wars overseas are worth it and pay up or return our vets, if back stopping 16+ Trillion in protecting to our Financial industry is worth it, or paying extremely low taxes is worth having such a large deficit.  
      5. Current Federal deficit is large and should be reduced- Would be a reflection of #4 but since american now rely on there own facts vs real ones it will be politically visible to to scapegoat minorities and the “others” than address both 4 and 5. 

    • Steve__T

       I agree

  • Mouse_2012

    David Frum on D’Souza’s racismhttp://www.samefacts.com/2010/09/uncategorized/david-frum-on-dsouzas-racism/ http://www.frumforum.com/gingrich-obama-wants-whiteys-money/ 

    “When last was there such a brazen outburst of race-baiting in the service of partisan politics at the national level? George Wallace took more care to sound race-neutral. … Nothing more offends conservatives than liberal accusations of racial animus. Yet here is racial animus, unconcealed and unapologetic, and it is seized by savvy editors and an ambitious politician as just the material to please a conservative audience. That’s an insult to every conservative in America.

    “Why Does Dinesh D’Souza Hate America?http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/dinesh-dsouza-movie-obama-2016-12141696 

    Of course, D’Souza only passes as a scholar for people who live in the Fox bubble, and get all their information from Fox, and only talk to other bubblers. But that’s okay. Everybody’s got to earn a buck, baby needs new shoes, and D’Souza’s got a genius shtick going.

    “Shhh… don’t tell D’Souza and his groupies that anti-colonialism and anti-Americanism are not the same thing, and in truth are opposites, so much so that it can be said that the the characteristic that first distinguished the American people from all the other peoples of the earth was our determined anti-colonialism. We fought a whole war about it (see Revolution, American).

    Read more: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/dinesh-dsouza-movie-obama-2016-12141696#ixzz27JHim000″

    • Gregg Smith

      That is amazingly shallow and racist. Frum’s an idiot. The article is flawed on several levels. A couple of noteworthy items are his contention that Rush says Obama wants reparations and the big one is his contention that Newt means “white property owners” when he talks about those already paying 50% or the affluent. How racist is that?

      • Mouse_2012

        Got it so Newt , 
        D’Souza or Rush aren’t racist but the author for pointing out the above three are racist is actually the racist. Talk about attacking the message(which he earlier decried in one of the below comments) 

        Folks example A above.

        • Gregg Smith

          Almost, they aren’t racist but saying they are is.

  • hennorama

    A large part of the discussions in here have centered on Federal income taxes (FIT), who pays and who doesn’t pay, who should or shouldn’t pay, how much should people pay, what rates various people should or shouldn’t pay, and fairness.

    This is all well and good, and the back and forth has been passionate, enlightening, and entertaining at times.

    One significant problem with having the discussion focusing on FIT is
    that FIT is only ONE component of the taxes everyone pays, so we miss the complete picture.  We’re focused on the tree, rather than the forest.

    The following article was written on April 15th (Tax Day), 2012, well
    before the recent uproar regarding Mr. Romney’s remarks, and is about tax fairness.

    The chart in the article illustrates each income group’s overall share
    of income, and the overall share of total taxes paid.  Total taxes
    include Federal, State, and Local taxes.

    Decide for yourself what the chart means, and whether there’s a case for saying one group or another pays too much or too little.  Comments are welcome, of course.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304356604577338122267919032.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    • Mouse_2012

      more,
      Today, Egypt’s state-owned Al Ahram newspaper published an opinion piece by Amr Abdul Samea, a past stalwart supporter of the deposed Hosni Mubarak,
      that contained a bombshell: Egypt’s parliament is considering passing a
      law that would allow husbands to have sex with their wives after death.It was soon mentioned in an English language version of Al-Arabiya and immediately started zipping around social-networking sites. By this afternoon it had set news sites and the rest of the Internet on fire. It has every thing: The yuck factor, “those creepy Muslims” factor, the lulz factor for those with a sick sense of humor. The non-fact-checked Daily Mail picked it up and reported it as fact. Then Andrew Sullivan, who has a highly influential blog but is frequently lax about fact-checking, gave it a boost with an uncritical take. The Huffington Post went there, too.There’s of course one problem: The chances of any such piece of legislation being considered by the Egyptian parliament for a vote is zero. And the chance of it ever passing is less than that.Greg original commentI never understood why President Obama was so quick to call for Mubarek to step down. Now with the Muslim Brotherhood is calling the shots. A new law likely to go into affect lowers the marriage age to 14 (not that the little girl have a choice) and allows husbands to have sex with their wives up to 6 hours after their death.
      http://english.alarabiya.net/a
      Nice work.Greg response after showing such was absurdDude, it’s happening. The radical Islamist are barbaric.Clearly it’s not add,–Greg wrote 
      It’s on the radar, don’t tell me it’s not. Here is a story from a year ago about a Fatwa:http://my.telegraph.co.uk/mark…You say it has Zero chance and I hope and pray to Allah you are correct. I really do, forgive me if I don’t share your optimism. I stand by my claim “The radical Islamist are barbaric” and will add: They are now running the show in Egypt.Forget about predictions, doesn’t the mere fact that it will come to a vote give you pauseresponseDishonest again,Just admit your wrong, The piece you link to is an Moroccan Imam that has no bearing in Egyptian politics.The links I provided debunk such. 

      • Gregg Smith

        Thank you so much for illustrating my prescience  about Egypt and the barbaric nature of Radical Islam. It’s almost like I predicted this outcome last April. I’m better than I thought. Also thank you for illustrating my caveats, fairness and open mindedness regarding my hope the story was wrong. 

        • Mouse_2012


          Also thank you for illustrating my caveats, fairness and open mindedness regarding my hope the story was wrong. ”

          And you say Ultrax was living in a fantasy world 

    • notafeminista

      Too much or too little is of course in the eye of the beholder.  What is stated however and has been stated in the OnPoint Forum as well as a number of other forums is the following:

      1)The top 20% pay 70% of income taxes, while earning 60% of the income.

      2)The same 20% also pay taxes at the state, county and city level in addition to their income taxes – something the so called 47% does not do.

      3)An interesting thing to note, is that according to the article fully 1/2 or 23% of that group qualify for tax breaks that bring their tax burden to zero. 

      Something I’d forgotten about, is the cap on Social Security – that famous safety net that’s kept billions and billions of seniors out of poorhouses and backbreaking poverty.  As noted in the article, anyone earning more than 110,000 is exempt from contributing to Social Security (presumably that kind of income, ensures one to be able to save for one’s retirement/old age).  So. 

      • hennorama

        Thank you for your response.

        There is indeed a good deal of data in the article.  I found it interesting to look at the TOTAL taxes vs. income picture, rather than focusing on only ONE tax – the Federal Income Tax (FIT).

        The chart shows that there is indeed some progessivity to the TOTAL tax picture, and that both the top 20% and the next lower (fourth) 20% pay a greater % of the total tax compared to their % of total income.

        A significant correction to your 1) comment.  The article says the top 20% pay 70% of FEDERAL TAXES (including income, payroll, corporate, excise, estate, etc. taxes), rather than the “70% of income taxes” you said.  They do indeed have about 60% of the income.

        However, and this is borne out in the chart, the top 20% pay 63.1% of TOTAL taxes on their 59.6% share of total income.  This includes Fed., State & Local taxes, not Federal taxes alone.

        So – top 20%: 59.6% of total income, 63.1% of total taxes.  Not a large difference.

        Also, as to your 2) comment: it’s simply untrue that “the 47%” who pay no FIT also pay no other taxes.  Again, from the chart – the lowest 2 quintiles pay a total of 7.4% of all taxes, and have 10.4% of all income.

        This is not a huge differential.  Bottom 40% have 10.4% of income, pay 7.4% of total taxes.

        Re: your 3) – Yes, the point of much of the discussion of “the 47%” (really 46%) is that the tax code fully allows them to pay $0 in FIT, for a variety of reasons, whether it is due to low income (23%), or a number of other tax breaks and credits (23%).  But “the 47%” discussion is narrowly focused, solely on the FIT, and omits the OTHER taxes virtually EVERYONE pays. (plus the fact that this is all perfectly legal).

        Finally, the SS taxable earnings limit does indeed allow employees and the self-employed with earnings over $110,100 (for 2012) to COMPLETELY AVOID any SS tax on their earnings above that level.  They still pay the much lower Medicare taxes, on all earned income.

        To me, the chart show that there is not an enormous differential between each income group’s share of total taxes, and their share of total income.  Some progressivity, but nothing enormous.

        • notafeminista

          You’ve misinterpreted point 2.  The 46% do pay state,city and county taxes.  They pay no federal income tax.  The top 20% pay both.

          If there’s not an enormous difference between the two then, (whether literal, or ethical or moral) then why the push to tax the top 1%. 

          What the chart doesn’t show is the ratio of services used v. services paid for.

          Does the top 20% use 70% of the services provided  for by federal income taxes?

          • hennorama

            Thank you again for your response.

            I understand and respect your points and your clarification of what you meant in your 2).

            There is a bit of a problem in both of our examples, however.  “The 47%” are not the same people who inhabit the lowest 47% of income levels.  Here’s the problem:

            There are people in ALL income ranges that pay no FIT.  While it’s clearly true that the lower your income is, the more likely your are to pay no FIT, another thing that is also true is that the fastest growing group of people paying no FIT has income in the $75,000 to $100,00 range.  Also, every year there are more than a 1,000 people with incomes over $1 million that pay no FIT.

            So, income level does not directly correspond to paying no FIT.

            Also, when discussing “the 47%” we are again narrowing the focus back to the FIT, rather than ALL taxes.

            It’s true that the chart does not present a taxes paid vs. benefits received (or similar phrasing) comparison.  I would expect this would be exceptionally difficult to quantify unless the “benefits received” or “services used” were fairly narrowly defined.

            I’m going to avoid your question about “the push to tax the top 1%.”

            I’m not personally advocating any position on tax rates, who should pay what, etc.  I’m trying to present add’l info, and to expand the discussion from the focus solely on FIT.

            Taxes of all sorts affect nearly every aspect of our lives, which is why I feel it’s important to look at ALL of them.

            BTW, did the chart in the article surprise you in any way?

  • Mouse_2012

    Just to prove a point.

    (Bear in mind Gregg first linked to a saudi newspaper before linking to hotair that itself links to the same Saudi Newspaper) This was repeated by Rush L. 

    http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/04/27/egypt_s_muslim_brotherhood_passes_law_allowing_husbands_to_have_sex_with_dead_wives_up_to_six_hours_after_death http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/04/27/week-in-the-news-193 Gregg wrote:Here’s a fair look at it from a right-wing blog I like:http://hotair.com/archives/201…I hope it is fake, we’ll see. I doubt it. Either way my point stands. Deny it.Like
    Reply4 months agoResponseDude admit you were wrong, your rightwing crap blog is not going to change the fact you were wrong.What’s funny is that Hotair site links back to the Saudi Link that I was debunked as a lie.Come on are you that dishonest?Greg than wrote:GreggCollapse
     Hot Air has not to this point updated (corrected) the story. They are very cautious and fair.ResponseThere’s no law, why do you keep claiming there is?A liar would be the one stating otherwise, you claimed that the MB were promoting this law in Egypt be linking debunked source information. After you were “PROVEN” to be wrong you linked Hotair linking to the SAME debunked source.Morocco or not Egypt and there is no such laws being purposed by either Country.Why do you lie so? Are you that dishonest?Seems the Radical Conservatives have no morals or ethics, once caught lying there still keep going as if it never happen.Feel free anything to admit you were wrong.

    • Gregg Smith

      “… hope it is fake, we’ll see. I doubt it. Either way my point stands. Deny it.” -Myself

      So right there your accusation falls flat. Then you go on to say I kept saying it was a law and I didn’t.HotAir is a very respectable and honest blog. You on the other hand are not to be trusted. Did the law pass?What’s your point? You said my comment below (present day) was misleading and false. Now you go back eons to bring up something else. And you didn’t prove squat then as you claimed.

      • Gregg Smith
        • Mouse_2012

          “You said my comment below (present day) was misleading and false ”
          Oh yea 
          http://sheikyermami.com  links to guess who?
          http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/25/210198.html  The same arctile that was found to be a fraud 
          http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0430/Ahead-of-elections-Egypt-s-state-propaganda-machine-rolls-on Your link is a great example not only do you still not admit that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt had no such law on the books or made any attempts to make this law you link to the same Morocco Imam that again has no power in Egypt.

          There you have it a great example of Greg Dishonest, Just so everyone remembers that Greg linked to sheikyermami today which links to alarabiya.net which was debunked by the Christian Science Monitor 

          “Last week, Egypt’s state-owned newspaper Al Ahram helped kick up an international storm with a bit of dodgy journalism: It ran an opinion piece by Amr Abdel Samea, a former loyalist of deposedPresident Hosni Mubarak, that stated that Mervat el-Tallawy, the head of Egypt’s National Council for Women, had complained that Egypt’s parliament was considering a piece of legislation sponsored by Islamists to allow men to have sex with their wives after their death.”

          • Gregg Smith

            You’re all over the place. You said my 5 point reply to hennorama was a great example of misleading and false comments. Back it up or shut up.

            You’re going off on an unrelated tangent that makes no sense. Who cares about what links back to what? The link shows the basis for the claim the act is okey-dokey under Islam. The CSM link did not debunk that, it debunked that it was being considered as law. Shelkyermami has no bearing on the story which I prayed to Allah was fake. It was context… as I said. That’s the way you do, I already illustrated that. How about actually reading the Rush piece he does not give it much credence. He says alarablya is suspect. He quoted the UK Telegraph, although he could have quoted Huffington Post or any number of outlets. The headline of the related link from his site says: Egypt’s ‘plans for farewell intercourse law so husbands can have sex with DEAD wives’ branded completely false”.  I never said it was law no matter how many times you claim I did.

            I’m as honest as the day is long. 

          • Mouse_2012

            Never said your five points

            See.

            “Not all of course but the comment below me is a great example.”

            Wording would have been much better using  the “Commenter  below me is a great example

            “The CSM link did not debunk that, it debunked that it was being considered as law. ”

            “The problem is that there was never any such proposal, at any stage of consideration, in the Egyptian parliament. ”

            Can’t get even better than that 

            Shelkyermami has no bearing on the story ”

            Of course it does it wrote a piece about it imply egpyt was doing such.(This is a clear sign of your dishonesty)

            “It was context… as I said.”

            You based it on false information. 

            Joke of the day 

            “I’m as honest as the day is long.”

            Just so happen the days are getting shorter

            Rush said:

            RUSH: The UK Daily Mail is reporting that the Muslim Brotherhood has passed a law granting husbands permission to have sex with their wives up to six hours after the wife has died.  It’s exactly right.  “Egyptian husbands will soon be legally allowed to have sex with their dead wives — for up to six hours after their death.  The controversial new law is part of a raft of measures being introduced by the Islamist-dominated parliament,” under the control of the Muslim Brotherhood.  I read this, and I said, “The NAGs are coming after me.  The NOW gang is coming after me, and, meanwhile, in Egypt husbands will be able to have sex with their wives up to six hours after the wife has died.” 

            Later said:

            RUSH:  I shoulda suspected this.  I didn’t.  I should have.  I wasn’t thinking.  All of the reaction, e-mails I’m getting to the story out of Egypt, Muslim Brotherhood now permitting sex with your dead wife for six hours after her death, one question I had of my own was, “Who provides the contraceptives when an Egyptian guy has sex with his dead wife?” 

          • Gregg Smith

            I was listening that day, were you? Thank you for showing how Rush was just reading the story. Note the quotation marks. Thank you for squatting Rush as saying, “The UK Daily mail is reporting…” proving it was not him making the claim. It turned out to be false as I hoped. The end was just funny, you had to be there. He also reminded us of when Bill Clinton lusted after a mummy.  It was on his TV show. I was watching that at the time too. Great stuff. Did you have a point?

      • Mouse_2012

        I went back to prove that you lie and distort even when proven wrong you saying the MB were promoting the above law, when in fact it wasn’t true and instead of admitting you were wrong you linked Hotair,than showing that Hotair linked to the debunked source you than changed and link to the telegraph commenting on what an Morocco Imam said(how has no say in Egypt) to claim the piece is somehow true, when I pointed out that such Moroccan Imam has no say in Egypt politics you went to Barbaric Islamist. Far from the claim you first started with. 

        “And you didn’t prove squat then as you claimed. ”

        I linked 
        http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0430/Ahead-of-elections-Egypt-s-state-propaganda-machine-rolls-on 

        “Last week, Egypt’s state-owned newspaper Al Ahram helped kick up an international storm with a bit of dodgy journalism: It ran an opinion piece by Amr Abdel Samea, a former loyalist of deposedPresident Hosni Mubarak, that stated that Mervat el-Tallawy, the head of Egypt’s National Council for Women, had complained that Egypt’s parliament was considering a piece of legislation sponsored by Islamists to allow men to have sex with their wives after their death.”

        The link you first used from from Al Ahram when I said it wasn’t true you still claimed it to be, when I linked to the above showing it wasn’t true you then linked to hotair which itself linked to the Al Ahram piece, after I pointed this out you than linked to the telegraph who qouted an Moroccan Imam, After I pointed out that he has no sway whatsoever in Egypt you called them barbaric Islamist in which Zero corrected your spelling. 

      • Mouse_2012


        HotAir is a very respectable and honest blog. ”

        Lie 

        “You on the other hand are not to be trusted. ”

        You just said Hotair(an rightwing hack website) i svery respectable and honest. I guess it’s as honest as you(which should tell us something)

        “Did the law pass?What’s your point?”

        There were no such law on attempting to be passed in Egypt yet you made the claim not once, not twice but three times 

    • Gregg Smith

      Evidently you think you’re on to something as you refuse to tell me where my reply to hennorama I was misleading or false. I wouldn’t normally engage in this sophistry but this is too rich. I looked at the Rush link. Here is the link on the same Rush page under “related stories” :

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Egypts-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-DEAD-wives-branded-completely-false.html

      And this one about the Fatwa:

      http://my.telegraph.co.uk/markulyseas/markulyseas/1311/fatwa-necrophilia-is-an-acceptable-practice-in-islam/

      I forgot about the fatwa. I’m not going to go back and look through hundred of OP comments but your repost indicated I was making a larger point about barbaric Radical Muslims and the proposed law was just a current example. The fatwa concerning Halal illustrates that. Rush is the best.

      • Mouse_2012

        Rush is fool,

        The first doesn’t link to it’s source but says “Arab media” and since the main source is alarabiya it again reports on a false article. The Second links to what a unknown Moroccan Imam said who again has no say in Egypt politics. You used that link to “sic” make a larger point about barbaric Radical Muslims and the proposed law that “Never Happen”

  • Mouse_2012

    Egypt’s New Leader Spells Out Terms for U.S.-Arab Ties

    “Successive American administrations essentially purchased with American taxpayer money the dislike, if not the hatred, of the peoples of the region,” he said, by backing dictatorial governments over popular opposition and supporting Israel over the Palestinians….“The president of the Arab Republic of Egypt is the commander of the armed forces, full stop. Egypt now is a real civil state. It is not theocratic, it is not military. It is democratic, free, constitutional, lawful and modern.”http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/world/middleeast/egyptian-leader-mohamed-morsi-spells-out-terms-for-us-arab-ties.html?ref=mohamedmorsi&_r=0 

    • notafeminista

      Anyone see what happened in Pakistan?

      • Mouse_2012

        google?

  • hennorama

    Sometimes I just have to laugh at stuff.  Groupon sent me an email offer of “47% Off …” a particular product.  Random?  Deliberate?  Coincidence? Conspiracy?

    “47%” is sure everywhere these days.

    What other things will pop up if one searches “47%”?

    98,600,000 Google results.

    • Yar

      A little math humor. See if the symbols remain after Disqus gets hold of them. 
      47% ÷ 44  ≠ 45
      53% = 44+4
      0 incumbents = clean house
      100 % vote and democracy in our nation wins!

      • Steve_the_Repoman

        I enjoy your posts.

        You have the uncommon faith, optimism and humor of a farmer.

  • Gregg Smith

    I just watched 60 minutes and President Obama is off the charts on the “whine and moan” meter. Steve Croft gave the appearance of tough journalism but he was accepting premises that are not true. He wasn’t quote as bad as “All Things Considered” yesterday which was a total and complete farce. I digress. Obama actually said 90% of our problems were from 2 wars and Medicare Part D. What a crock! The numbers don’t work in any way. I didn’t like the prescription drug plan on Libertarian grounds but my elderly parents both love it. It was the only bill in the history of the universe to come in under budget because of the competition aspects. It still cost too much but it works. Obamacare has tripled in price and can’t possibly work. The charge is surreal. And don’t get me started on the wars. Let me put that another way. It’s a despicable lie. The interview was full of them.

    • hennorama

      Gregg sorry but I have to call you on this.

      First, Pres. Obama was discussing the debt and the deficit, NOT “… 90% of our problems …”  Croft had asked a question along the lines of “The debt has increased 60% under your administration …” and Pres. Obama responded.

      Second, he stated that he inherited a massive deficit, and that 2 wars, tax cuts that weren’t paid for, Medicare Part D, and the Great Recession were largely responsible.  You left out tax cuts that weren’t paid for, and the effects of the Great Recession.  Kinda important.

      Paraphrasing his further comments (and this is where you must have gotten your “90%” figure), Pres. Obama said something like “Our actions contributed about 10%.”

      I’m confident the tape/transcript will bear me out on these points.

      I thought both men handled themselves well, and both came out favorably in my view.

      One thing I think is important is that the dates of each interview were different.  Mr. Romney’s was more recent, and was after his “the 47%” remarks became public.  Pres. Obama’ was just after the Cairo & Benghazi incidents, and before “the 47%.”

      I encourage everyone to watch for themselves.

      • Gregg Smith

        I should have written “Debt”. I’m pretty sure he said 90% of our debt came from 2 wars and part D. I look at our debt and our problems as one in the same but could have been more accurate. The point is it’s not true. 

        The wars were paid for, that was another lie. It’s been told so much most now believe it. They lumped it into other non-military bills and I believe that is one reason Bush spent like a drunken sailor. He wanted to keep the wars going and accepted pork from both sides as a way to pass bills and get military funds.

        I didn’t get the 90% by interpolating from the 10%. He said it. I may have misinterpreted or jumped the gun but I don’t think so. 

        • Gregg Smith

          I looked it up, he said “deficit”.

          “And over the last four years, the deficit has gone up, but ninety percent of that is as a consequence of two wars that weren’t paid for, as a consequence of tax cuts that weren’t paid for, a prescription drug plan that was not paid for, and then the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.”Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/24/transcript-obama-on-60-minutes/#ixzz27ONJKDhb

          • Gregg Smith

            Actually “deficit” is the most misleading of the 3 (debt, deficit and problems). TARP was fully 2/3rds of the deficit, so right there his number fails. But it’s worse because while the deficit was on Bush, Obama implemented (spent) half of TARP and he voted for it as Senator. How can he complain about the biggest deficit  in history when his 4 deficits were bigger? 

            When I see crap like this I want to curl up in the fetal position and cry.

          • hennorama

            I feel that arguing over “who owns the defict (and/or the debt) - Bush or Obama?” is interesting, but ultimately a waste of time.

            Here’s something I posted a couple weeks ago (apologies for the length):

            “The main point I was making is that understanding that the Great Recession is indeed different than most recessions, especially recent recessions, is important in understanding that recovery is not and will not be rapid and brisk, but is and will be rather drawn-out and weak.

            So don’t fall for the “it should be better by now, any idiot could have made it better than Obama has already” argument.

            It’s gonna be drawn-out and weak regardless of who is in the White House.  There is no magic bullet.

            Practically everything has already been tried.  Some things worked very well, some worked pretty well, and some did not work at all.

            Fortunately for everyone, the crisis and collapse were stopped, and both economic and employment growth have resumed, albeit weakly.

            The Fed has pretty much exhausted all of its options, lowering interest rates to practically zero and buying up massive amounts of long-term Federal debt and bonds issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.  QE III may be coming soon.  But really, monetary policy is pretty much exhausted.

            Fiscal policy options have been tried as well.  Taxes were cut repeatedly, and there was some stimulus spending for infrastructure, job creation, aid to the states, and other stuff.
            All of this worked to stave off a collapse, but the recovery remains slow, mainly due to the nature of and the size of the initial problem.

            The current situation finds us with private sector spending by individuals and businesses restrained, and state and municipal spending cratering.  This pretty much leaves the Federal government as the last option to provide economic stimulus.

            It doesn’t seem like we can get much here, because Federal deficit spending has been demonized by Republicans, who also have recently gotten religion about the Federal debt.  And taxes are already super-low as a percentage of GDP, so there’s not much that can been done there.

            All this adds up to a slow, incremental recovery as individuals and businesses pay down debt and add to savings.  It will end eventually, but not anytime soon.

            Again, this is regardless of who is in the White.”

          • Gregg Smith

            My contention isn’t “it should be better by now, any idiot could have made it better than Obama has already”. It is Obama has made it worse. It’s Obama has wrought havoc on the economy. Our disagreement is on the premise. I think that is highly important to acknowledge. Obama is making a non-sensicle argument by blaming Bush 4 years out.  

          • hennorama

            I understand your view that Pres. Obama made things worse, and that it’s non-sensical for Pres. Obama to “blame Bush.”

            I get it, really. Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with you, I feel it’s a waste of time to try to assign blame and/or credit. I’ve discussed this before, as well (again, from a couple weeks ago, and a bit lengthy):

            “OK, perhaps this is another fool’s errand, but I’m gonna give it a shot.

            Can we agree that Federal programs and policies do not all suddenly begin or end on the day a President is inaugurated or leaves office? There is overlap and underlap, for a variety of reasons.

            If the above is true, it makes it almost impossible to accurately measure and attribute every single item of Federal revenue or outlay to any individual President.

            And if this is true, then why waste time on the whole argument of “Such and such occured during Pres. (insert your choice here)’s time in office, so he did all of this, and it did this to the deficit and debt and he’s 100% to blame for the mess we’re in now!” ?

            I’m sure we all agree that the current economy is far from ideal. I think we can all agree that the situation didn’t happen overnight, and won’t be resolved overnight.

            The past is interesting, and fun to argue about, but it can’t be changed and therefore it would be more productive to talk about the future.

            So … let’s stop wasting time trying to assign blame on what’s already happened, and talk about what we want to happen, or what we think will happen.

            For example – if Romney is elected, what spending do you think should be cut? He says he will cut 5% of “non-security discretionary spending” on Day One, totaling $20 Billion. What should he cut? What will the impact of the cuts be? Will it stimulate the economy?”

          • Gregg Smith

            My problem with not assigning blame is twofold. 1) Blame is all Obama has and is what he is doing. He  must be refuted because it’s highly misleading at best.   And 2) he will do more of the same if reelected on the false premise that it is not his fault. I don’t think America as we know it will survive if that happens.If I did I wouldn’t be here.

          • hennorama

            Yeah, lot’s of people confuse “debt” and “deficit” so you’re not alone there, by a long shot.

            It was nice to see that Fox News put up the full transcripts of both Mr. Romney’s and Pres. Obama’s “60 Minutes” interviews, so we can read ALL of the remarks rather than snippets.

          • Gregg Smith

            I didn’t really confuse the two and certainly am intimately aware of the difference, my original interpretation was “problems” and I think that’s what Obama actually meant. As I wrote below, “deficit” doesn’t make sense in the context in which he used it.

          • hennorama

            Apologies as to the use of “confused;” no slight intended there.  How about ”conflate” or even “equate?”

            As to Fox News -  I do watch/visit Fox News,  MSNBC, and CNN, often switching between them on the hour.  The contrast is interesting, informative and entertaining.

            I make no comments as to the merits of FN, MSNBC or CNN, as I don’t want to start a firestorm/flame war in here.

          • Gregg Smith

            No need to apologize, I took no offense.  I just got the word wrong, no confusion, conflation or equating. My comment did not depend on the word, any way you cut it, Obama was not telling the truth which was my point. I feel quite confident if asked to clarify he would say I meant “problems”. If he did I would change my charge from lying to merely being dead wrong. There is no way to blame 90% of our debt or deficit on wars and Part D. He surely knows that.

          • hennorama

            I understand and respect your views.

            Again, a point of clarification.

            Pres. Obama did not just mention “…wars and Part D.”

            Pres. Obama said “Well, first — first of all, Steve, I think it’s important to understand the context here. When I came into office, I inherited the biggest deficit in our history. And over the last four years, the deficit has gone up, but ninety percent of that is as a consequence of two wars that weren’t paid for, as a consequence of tax cuts that weren’t paid for, a prescription drug plan that was not paid for, and then the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Now we took some emergency actions, but that accounts for about ten percent of this increase in the deficit …”

            Again, you left out “tax cuts that weren’t paid for” and “the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.”

          • Gregg Smith

            Up.

        • hennorama

          Yes, I just read the transcript. Turns out we were BOTH right about the 90% & 10% remarks, as Pres. Obama said both.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       60 minutes also edited out the questions about Obama deceitful ads and his defense of them.

  • Gregg Smith

    Here’s a whopper from Obama’s Letterman appearance. 

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/24/obamateurism-of-the-day-832/

  • Gregg Smith

    Hennorama, we’re beating a dead horse. Again we disagree on premise. When the rates were lowered in 2003 the unemployment rate went down for 52 months and revenue increased by over a half trillion dollars by 2007. The line about them not being paid for is another lie. It makes no sense at all unless you believe it’s the governments money. For something to cost money, money must be exchanged. No money is exchanged when people are allowed to keep more of what is theirs.

    You wrote: “Again, you left out “tax cuts that weren’t paid for” and “the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.” But you left out two crucial words. “… and then the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. I took “and then” to mean “as a result of” not “in addition”.

    • hennorama

      Yes, those pesky semantics and interpretations are rearing their ugly heads yet again.  Oh well … tomato, potato, Clamato, Winnebago …

      Not speaking for Pres. Obama here, but I believe that when he referred to previous things that “weren’t paid for” (wars, tax cuts, Med. Pt. D) he refers to the PAY/GO concept that used to be law.  It expired at the end of 2002.  In 2003, as you said, there were tax cuts, and Med. Pt. D was enacted.  These did not comply with PAY/GO, but the Bush White House said they would  “ensure fiscal discipline” and get back to a balanced budget.  This never happened.  There were deficits every year from 2002 thru 2008.

      I understand your reasoning about US revenue increases, and your contention that this increase paid for the wars, etc.  But there were still deficits, every year, even as federal revenues rose.

      There’s an interesting discussion of PAY/Go here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAYGO

      By the way, PAY/GO is back, kinda, except for “emergencies.”  See the above article.

  • jefe68

    One fact that cuts across all partisan arguments is that the US is 30th in internet speed and falling. We pay more for our internet service and receive slower connections and lousy service than most industrial nations with the exception of Canada. The present and future growth of our economy and how we can compete is tied to this infrastructure. If the private sector is not willing or wanting to make this better then what?

    According to a recent report by the Berkman Center for Internet and
    Society at Harvard University, broadband Internet service in the U.S. is
    not just slower and more expensive than it is in tech-savvy nations
    such as South Korea and Japan; the U.S. has fallen behind
    infrastructure-challenged countries such as Portugal and Italy as well.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=competition-and-the-internet

    So the question is how is this not an issue? How is this not a huge issue when you have nations as poor a Latvia with better internet connection speeds than ours.

    We should be embarrassed, and after that we should be demanding something be done about this as it pertains to our economic future. Don’t tell me the market will take care of it because it’s not now. As I type this I’m noticing that my connection is a bit slow, how ironic.

  • pete18

     The Wall St Journal wipes out Obama’s absurd claims about only being responsible for 10% of the debt:

    Footnotes No. 2 through 4: Liberals continue to
    claim that the main causes of the current fiscal mess are tax rates
    established in, er, 2001 and 2003 and the post-9/11 wars on terror. But
    by 2006 and 2007, those tax rates were producing revenue of 18.2% and
    18.5% of GDP, near historic norms.

    Another quandary for Mr. Obama’s apologists is that he has endorsed
    nearly all of these policies. The 2003 Medicare drug benefit wasn’t
    offset by tax hikes or spending cuts, but Democrats expanded the program
    as part of ObamaCare.

    The President also extended all the
    Bush tax rates in 2010 for two more years in the name of helping the
    economy, and he now wants to continue them for people earning under
    $200,000, which is where 71% of their “cost” resides. The Iraq campaign
    was won and beginning to be wound down when he took office, and he
    himself surged more troops in Afghanistan.

    Footnote No. 5: Mr. Obama keeps dining out on
    the excuse of the recession, but that ended halfway through his first
    year. The main deficit problems since 2009 are a permanently higher
    spending base (see Footnote No. 1) and the slowest economic recovery in
    modern history. Revenues have remained below 16% of the economy,
    compared to 18% to 19% in a normal expansion.

    The 2008 crisis is long over. The crisis now is Mr. Obama’s non-recovery.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358804578016270614705726.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

    • hennorama

      This is all very interesting, indeed, but ultimately a waste of time.   Assessing blame or giving credit is a look backward rather than forward.  Interesting, but pointless.  Can’t change what’s already happened, regardless of who you think is to blame or who deserves credit.

      The author of this article says, “Every President “inherits” a
      government that was built over generations, which he chooses to change, or not to change, to suit his priorities.” It’s as if the author believes the President has magical powers to “change or not to change” the entirety of the Federal government, with a finger snap.

      An enormous part of Federal expenditures is virtually
      on autopilot and growing, such as Social Security, Medicare, etc.  Same thing with revenues.

      The author only discusses spending, omitting the fact that Federal revenues remain below the level of 2007, as if spending is the only reason that deficits exist. 

      Another significant problem in the “analysis” in this opinion piece is that there is no discussion at all about the nature of the Great Recession, and that it was not a”normal” (boom/bust) recession, and therefore the recovery from the Great Recession is not a “normal” recovery or expansion.

      This is not your father’s recession or recovery.

      The author cites “post-WWII” stats, conveniently omitting the only other economic downturn that compares to the Great recession.  The Great Recession was nearly unprecendented in American history.  The only comparable US economic downturn in the past 100 years is the Great Depression, which began in 1929, well before WWII, AND, very importantly, is outside the personal experience of nearly every American.

      Most Americans have experienced other, more typical boom/bust economic cycles and the associated recessions and recoveries have typically been both sharp and brief.  So their expectations align with their experience, ignoring the fact that this is a significantly different economic circumstance.  Opinion leaders rarely explain or even mention this difference.

      The Great Recession was NOT a boom/bust recession but rather was a balance sheet recession.  Asset values dropped like crazy, but debts remained.  Balance sheets,
      both for individuals and businesses, cratered.

      Asset values fell off the table in 2008, dropping by almost 16% from the 2007 level and remain more than 5% below the 2007 level.

      (source:
      http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/Z1/Current/accessible/b100.htm )

      There was a legitimate emergency in 2008.  Banks collapsed and failed.  Governments, businesses and individuals were in a near panic.  Fortunately for all, the actions of the Federal
      Reserve and the Federal government (and other world governments) stopped the emergency from turning into a full-blown Depression.

      The Great Recession did end, but its effects are still being felt.  There were not only financial impacts, but psychological ones as well.  Demand remains weak.  Individuals and businesses are largely gun-shy and risk-averse.  They prudently are paying down debt and adding to savings, rather than borrowing and spending.  This means overall demand is muted.

      The recovery still feels like a recession, since growth is weak and unemployment remains high.  Americans want a magic bullet, but there is none.  It has been and will continue to be a slow grind, as balance sheets improve.

      This will end eventually, but not anytime soon, regardless of who is in the White House.

      • pete18

        You may disagree with the Journal’s analysis of the problem but I can’t believe that you really don’t think it’s important to assign blame and know what caused it. There can be no credible solution to a quandary if you don’t know what provoked it. One certainly wouldn’t make the claim that knowing whether it was failed brakes or drivers error that caused a car crash wasn’t relevant because the accident happened in the past and there is nothing we could do to change it.

        • hennorama

          The cause(s) of the Great Recession is indeed mportant to determine, but as of this moment, there is no single person, policy, President or administration that can be pinpointed as “cause.” This global economic crisis is still being studied and will continue to be studied for decades. Such is its significance.

          There are many arguments and little agreement as to “cause.”

          (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_late-2000s_recession)

          Without certainty as to cause, there can be no certainty as to blame.

          Even if the cause was certain, and blame could be precisely assigned, we are still left with the current problem of the aftereffects – slow growth combined with high unemployment.

          Solutions to these two in combination are few. Most all plausible solutions have been tried (and continue) – monetary stimulus from the Federal Reserve, and fiscal stimulus from Congress and the President(s) in the form of tax reductions and Federal spending programs.

          Much has been tried already. Many things worked very well, some worked fairly well, and some failed completely. The point is, virtually every possible solution has been tried. Fortunately, depression was avoided and we are in recovery.

          I’ve dubbed this “The BBQ recovery” – low and slow.

          • Gregg Smith

            With all due respect, that is your opinion. My opinion is Obama is the reason this isn’t all behind us. He is the reason for slow growth and high unemployment.  

          • hennorama

            Gregg I think it has been abundantly clear from your comments that you “blame Obama” or however you’d phrase it.. I respect that you hold that view.

            In an effort to understand your view, what do you base this on? What I mean is, you do agree that the crash was avoided, right? This was due to a number of actions by both the Bush II and Obama administrations,and the Fed. Right?

            Unemployment and GDP have both improved a great deal. They’re definitely not improving as fast as we’d all like, but what specifically do you think Pres. Obama has done to retard GDP growth and employment?

            This is not a rhetorical question.

          • jefe68

            I think you’re wasting your time with this chap. If his car did not start in the morning he would blame President Obama. Think of the comment, he’s blaming everything on the president when if it’s quite obvious to anyone who has been paying attention that Congress has had a huge hand in this. There are three branches of government in this country and not one is supposed to have absolute power.

            Besides that no president could have fixed the mess of 8 years in 4, not one.

          • Gregg Smith

            The slogan was “Yes we can” not “no one could have”.

          • hennorama

            Thank you for your comment. I don’t feel that open discussion has to end in agreement, so I don’t feel that discussion time is a waste, regardless of the outcome.

            As you may have noticed, I am interested in finding areas of agreement, because I DO feel that we agree on many more things than is apparent from the back and forth in forums of this type.

            Still, I am interested in and respect all points of view, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

          • jefe68

            And your opinion is based on a large diet of right wing propaganda, of which you admit to believing and liking to a huge degree.
            In all honesty you’re not interested in reason, that’s my opinion.

          • Gregg Smith

            I deny the charge, I get a daily heapin’ helpin’ of left-wing propaganda. Rush is more accurate and that is based on decades of listening to both sides. How often do you seek out opposing views? How often do you visit and comment on right-wing blogs?

  • Gregg Smith

    Hennorama, I do believe we were in a crisis and I do believe TARP (as awful as it was implemented) helped stem that crisis. Beyond that… where to start?

    Obama came into office and put jobs and the economy on the back burner when they should have been job one. During the campaign he said the economy was much worse than it actually was but now he says he didn’t realize how bad it was. I believe if he had extended the tax cuts immediately it would have been a huge injection of confidence as opposed to no business having any idea what their tax rate would be mere weeks before the fiscal year. You cannot make a business plan, expand and hire on that basis. In the end he extended them and there was never any doubt he would, why wait? Obamacare is a huge ball and chain shackling small business, it’s price has tripled, it’s compliance cost has caused many businesses to stop offering coverage all together and the massive tax increase on the middle class is real now that the SCOTUS has ruled. New regulations have imposed $46 billion/year on small business. We did not have our credit downgraded because of the housing crisis, it was because of fiscal insanity. Congress could not reach a deal on the debt ceiling (AKA do their job) and they kicked the can down the road instead of facing hard choices. One failure of leadership after another has led us to the untenable situation we face on Jan.1. S&P said we would not have been downgraded if “Cut, Cap and Balance” had passed because it showed an effort and plan for improvement. It never even got a vote in the Senate. We are printing money out the yin yang. President Obama has never worked under a budget, the ones he did propose were laughably unserious and that’s why they got zero votes from either party. At the very least the President should be serious. Trillion dollar deficits ensue. The energy policy is also a joke. He has waged war with the coal companies, he has imposed moratorium on off-shore drilling and punted on the pipeline all in favor of one green failure after another. Everything from the Volt to Solyndra. He says he saved GM but it went bankrupt despite the bailout and they are not on a path to recovery. They are propped up by us and headed back to bankruptcy. He has demonized business by saying they are greedy, want dirty air, and take too much credit for the success they sacrificed mightily for. The entire “stimulus” was a debacle. “Cash for Clunkers”? That wasn’t part of any real solution. The unemployment rate by his own  numbers would have been lower now than without it. These are his own numbers!

    unemployment-against-projections.jpg

    So it’s not just that he didn’t fix what he said he would, he made it worse. Are we better off now than we were $6 trillion ago? The massive debt is another foot on our neck. The economy did improve marginally then tanked again. I really could go on and on, and don’t even get me started on foreign policy or his nasty divisiveness.

    You may argue some of these actions were justified but that is a different argument. His decisions and lack of decisions are why we are in this mess. I honestly believe America as we know it will not survive another term. I get dismissed here but I’m not alone outside of this bubble. You may disagree but I have a leg to stand on and I’ve studied and reflected on it. I appreciate your willingness to ask for clarification and not just be personal and nasty.

    • Gregg Smith
    • hennorama

      Thank you again for your clear reply.  I respect your views, and appreciate you sharing them in such a concentrated way.  I believe it’s very helpful to share these perspectives so that myself and others can understand where people are coming from, and the passion behind their remarks.

      I had a long counterpoint to your views, but it wasn’t anything I haven’t already said, so I deleted it.

      • Gregg Smith

        Back athcha’. I also could have written much more including the lack of any plan to fix anything from Obama. All he has offered is more of the same. The only policy I have heard is raising the top rate which will not fix squat.

        If your counter point was debating the details of what he did then it is indeed pointless. My argument is he did it. It’s on him. He may be the greatest humanitarian on earth for all the right reasons, but he still wrecked it.

        We have a little skid-steer bobcat we use to clean stalls every Tuesday. Yesterday it dropped a valve and needs a rebuild or a new engine. It turns out new EPA regulations meant Kohler (the engine manufacturer) no longer offers that engine. But the bad part is they also removed all the parts from all the shelves. My mechanic says even if he could get parts and fix it he could be fined $30K if he doesn’t retro-fit it with a new carburetor. So here I sit in deep doo doo with few options. This is not good for business. If we have to spend 20 grand on a new one then those cost will be passed on to customers. That’s not good for customers. The rules are hurting my mechanics business big time as well. This is a microcosm of what is happening through regulations across the board. You may argue my Bobcat was killing the planet but I don’t think so. Again that would be a different debate. The fact remains Obama is making it very hard on small business.

        • hennorama

          That stinks! (Sorry, but I couldn’t let your straight line about deep doo doo pass unremarked).

          Seriously though – sorry to hear about your individual difficulties. It’s never fun when mechanical things one relies on break down. Perhaps you and/or your mechanics should share your story with the Romney campaign, especially if you live in a swing state. People eat up these firsthand accounts.

          Of course, change brings opportunity. I’ve found it interesting how individuals, businesses and governments adapt to new regulations. I know the recent changes to nonroad engine exhaust have affected a wide range of people, such as yourself, and all the way down to the gardeners who provide lawn care.

          For example, some municipalities have offered financial assistance to those who are impacted. These changes have also spawned some new businesses, such as lawn care companies who use only solar-charged, battery-operated equipment.

          I’m confident you’ll make a smart decision, and trust your business had a budget for the eventuality of repair/replacement of your equipment.

          Best regards.

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