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U.S. Ambassador Killed In Libya

The U.S. Ambassador to Libya was among four Americans killed late Tuesday in an attack on the American Consulate in Benghazi. We’ll look at what happened and why.

A burnt car is seen after an attack on the U.S. Consulate by protesters angry over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad in Benghazi, Libya, Wednesday, Sept. 12, 2012. The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans were killed. (AP)

A burnt car is seen after an attack on the U.S. Consulate by protesters angry over a film that ridiculed Islam’s Prophet Muhammad in Benghazi, Libya, Wednesday, Sept. 12, 2012. The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other Americans were killed. (AP)

A terrible set of days out of North Africa and the Arab world. An American ambassador – an especially fine one by all accounts – dead in Libya. And not only the ambassador. Fury and the flag down at the US embassy in Cairo, the heart of the Arab Spring.

Today, the American embassy in Yemen stormed – walls scaled, fire set. A firestorm at home over Mitt Romney’s instant intervention. A bizarre attack film on Islam. Fears of a militant hand behind popular outrage. And big questions over everything.

This hour, On Point: looking at and through the fury in the Arab world.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

David Kirkpatrick, Cairo bureau chief for the New York Times.

Jake Tapper, senior White House correspondent for ABC New

Christopher Dickey, Paris Bureau Chief and Middle East Regional Editor for Newsweek/Daily Beast.

Shadi Hamid, Director of Research at the Brookings Doha Center and a fellow at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution

From Tom’s Reading List

al Jazeera “The US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, has died from smoke inhalation in an attack on the US consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, the country’s interior ministry and security sources have said. An armed mob attacked and set fire to the building in a protest against an amateur film deemed offensive to Islam’s Prophet Muhammad, after similar protests in Egypt’s capital.”

New York Times “The United States ambassador to Libya, J. Christopher Stevens, was killed along with three of his staff members in a fiery and furious attack on the American Consulate in Benghazi on Tuesday night by an armed mob angry over a short American-madevideo mocking Islam’s founding prophet, the White House and Libyan officials said on Wednesday.”

Foreign Policy “What makes the deaths all the more tragic is that they will inevitably become politicized. On Tuesday, conservative websites were highly critical of a statement by the U.S. Embassy in Cairo that came ahead of a protest where demonstrators breached the embassy’s walls in a moment reminiscent of 1979 in Iran. Liz Cheney and the Republican-controlled House Foreign Affairs Committee joined in, accusing the administration of issuing an “apology” for a bizarre and mysterious film attacking the Prophet Mohammed that served as a pretext for the protests. And the Romney campaign issued its own statement. Wednesday will likely bring more finger-pointing.”

American Conservative ”Two things ought to be kept in mind as the furor develops. First, while an inflammatory YouTube video may have detonated the charge, the powderkeg in Libya and Egypt has other origins. If mobs can express their will by overthrowing dictators, why shouldn’t they express their will by slaughtering diplomats as well? Westerners across the political spectrum have been willfully naive not only about who some of the Arab Spring revolutionaries are — by no means a majority, but quite enough, are extremists of the sort the U.S. has elsewhere been fighting in the vaunted War on Terror — but about the nature of revolution in general, which does not come to a neat conclusion with the death of a monster like Gaddafi.”

Video

Here is a video from the State Department about Ambassador Chris Stevens.


Here is Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s statement on Stevens’ death.


Here is a story from CNN on the attack.

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  • Mouse_2012

    Sad,

     But I recommend anyone check out today’s Hourly BBC news update. So far they gave far more insight then the whole day coverage on NPR.

    The group that attacked has elements of Al’Q but are extreme in regards to Islam, the additional people that attacked were part of the Libyan people, and the reason for the late response or reaction time is was do to the fact that the group that attacked is part of the TNC government and wield far more power than admitted.  This information was later whitewashed by NPR and many of the MSM who decided instead to take the U.S. Government line. 

    (my views not from the bbc report)

    Instead what we got is how bad Iran is and how this looks just like what happen in Iran, How somehow this was actually an “Accident” and while the Egyptian president should be held responsible the Libyan Government should have no responsibility at all and how it’s tough for the TNC. What was missed is these weapons used were probably previously provided to the attackers by NATO or the U.S., That the TNC still tortures,rapes, and murders people who disagree with them and before this locked up some human rights officials from the U.N. Not to mention the attacks and ethic cleansing of Libyans of African origin(which the U.S. turned a blind eye while a town of 30k was ethically cleansed by the TNC from benghazi who our man from the U.S. saw no issue with this.  Nor that Benghazi is extremely religious and racist who the U.N. put out a report about such

    libya Must End Racism Against Black African Migrants and Other 
    http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1313923&ct=8411733 

  • Mouse_2012

    This is what Obama and the White House called Success all seemed to have been forgotten by the Press and the WH

    Here’s some of the name of the libyan Brigade such  as “‘the Brigade for Purging Slaves”

    The New York Times refers to “racist overtones”, but sometimes the racism is explicit. A rebel slogan painted in Misrata during the fighting salutes “the brigade for purging slaves, black skin”.  
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/30/libya-spectacular-revolution-disgraced-racism 

    U.S. can’t stand by while racism ravages Libyahttp://www.suntimes.com/news/jackson/8667940-452/us-cant-stand-by-while-racism-ravages-libya.html 

    Libya’s spectacular revolution has been disgraced by racismThe murder of black men in the aftermath of the rebellion speaks of a society deeply divided for decades by Muammar Gaddafi
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/30/libya-spectacular-revolution-disgraced-racism 

    Libyan Revolution Fuels Racism Against Black Africans
    http://newsone.com/1603145/libya-racism-blacks-africans/ 

  • Mouse_2012

    It’s sad what happen to our Ambassador and I hope the people who did this are brought to Justice, but these violent acts have been going on in Libya with the full support of the U.S. government and Corporate Interest but in this case it was one of our own for a long time now and many people have suffered from such violence in which both the WH and much of the MSM has largely ignored until now choosing to spin it as a success.

    Don’t forget torture. What you haven’t heard?
    Libya prisoners make new torture allegations

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16771372 Libyan detainees die after torture, says Amnesty International

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-16741937 Amnesty accuses Libyan militias of unbridled tortureReport says torturers don’t stop even when investigators show up

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/02/16/libya-torture-amnesty.

    html http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/06/18/libya-candidates-should-address-torture-illegal-detention Libya: Cease Arbitrary Arrests, Abuse of Detainees 

     http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/30/libya-cease-arbitrary-arrests-abuse-detainees Libya: Opposition Arbitrarily Detaining Suspected Gaddafi Loyalists

     http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/06/05/libya-opposition-arbitrarily-detaining-suspected-gaddafi-loyalists Extradition to Libya – extradition to torture

    http://rt.com/news/extradition-libya-torture-mahmoudi-932/ Amnesty finds widespread use of torture by Libyan militias

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/16/amnesty-widespread-torture-libyan-militias 

    Libyan diplomat’s son speaks about father’s ‘torture

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16882585

  • JGC

    James Fallows at the Atlantic said that “Romney has failed his 3 A.M. test”.  

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      And Obama failed his Arab spring test.

      He was asked point blank in a Feb 2010 interview what he thought of the Muslim brotherhood.  He claimed there is NO way they will ever be in power in Egypt.

      You have to admit Obama looks a bit naive now.

      • Mouse_2012

        Far better supporting a dictator, know go complain how Obama didn’t support the people of Iran against there own. 

        Hypocrite 

        btw,

        Ever since the President of Egypt criticized Syria and Iran he’s no longer called a Islamist by the media or WH(amazing I know)

      • Don_B1

        You disregard the nature of the Arab Spring to attempt to throw mud to see if it sticks to Obama. Well you will have a long wait as most of the excrement you throw goes right to Romney’s bed where he made it.

        Interesting the last two Republican presidential candidates showed and are now showing, respectively, that they were not ready for “prime time.” That is otherwise known as not passing the 3 a.m. crisis call test.

    • StilllHere

      Obama’s been asleep for 4 years when it comes to the Middle East. 

  • Jim_in_italy

    Perhaps my question should be a topic for an entire show: what would the middle east look like today if Bush had not decided to fight a war in Iraq? I imagine that Iran and other terrorist groups operating in the “Arab Spring” countries would not be as powerful. Other consequences?

    • Mouse_2012

      By invading Iraq we strength Iran and created a ally in Iraq that was once a mortal enemy, but than again we were funding Saddam when he was gassing the kurds.  

    • Gregg Smith

      If Hussein was still in power we’d be in a world of hurt.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Hussein was contained and weak. He had nothing to do with 9/11. He didn’t support Al Qaeda. He had no WMDs.

        He talked big but had nothing to back up his mouth. The opposite of “speak softly and carry a big stick”
        is
        “If you haven’t got anything, bluff”. Cost him his dictatorship and his life.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Why wasn’t there better security on the anniversary of 9/11?  Especially after the recent Al Qaeda  warnings.

    A terrible tragedy.

    Hopefully they will catch and kill the terrorists.

    • JGC

      The military is programming the drone response even as we sleep… G’night…

  • JGC

    This is just a preview of what can be expected from a Romney-led presidency.  How long until we are boots-on-the-ground invading Iran? Not only does the extended Romney family not have any inherent and actual appreciation for military service, Romney himself does not have any appreciation or understanding of the Foreign Service, which tries to use diplomacy to build bridges and iron out differences before escalation into costly physical confrontation.  

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Huh?

      Romney wants to keep us out of war.

    • Mouse_2012

      Nutty yahoo is pissed Obama turned down his call for the U.S. to tell Israel it will bomb Iran for it. 

      Sure Romney be on his knees trying to please Nutty over there(as long as sheldon anderson keep dropping those millions). 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    What is interesting that the Romney campaign released statement condemning the Embassy’s statement trashing free speech.

    Shortly thereafter the Obama WH also released a similar statement that they were not responsible for the embassy statement and disavowed it and condemned it.  Effectively agreeing with Romney.

    However, at some point later they DELETE the agreement with Romney and start attacking Romney — with the medias help.

    Maybe you can criticize Romney’s timing but he was simply defending free speech.  Not a big deal and very defensible.

    You could argue what the Obama campaign — deleting the tweet — and then going on the attack is crass politics.  Further it was crass politics that was only possible with the escalation due to the deaths of 4 Americans, including the ambassador.

    Finally, if you don’t believe that the media is in on this you only have to look at the Romney press conference yesterday.  They were in full gotcha mode.  Then they were caught in pre-press conference open mic moment where they were coordinating gotcha questions.  I suspect these are the same clowns that made fools of themselves in Poland — screaming inane questions at the Polish sacred site.

    • Mouse_2012

      Face it Romney Jumped the gun and looked like a fool. Now (like they should) his campaign is trying to walk back the comments(aka spin) he made. Even republicans in the house choose to stay away from Romney comment(most of them that is).

      The only fool in Poland was Romney 

      • William

         Obama never took one question on this attack on America. Not one. Nothing. He just walked away from the reporters. Why the free pass? Don’t the American people deserve some answers? Why is the press going after Gov. Romney and giving Obama a free pass?

        • StilllHere

          The guy’s gotten a 4-yr free pass, why would it change now.  Obama’s foreign policy is a disaster in the here and now, and the media wants to focus on Romney’s timing.  Crazy!

        • Don_B1

          Did you ever think that with new details and widening knowledge of who’s doing what, maybe that point in time he had said what he new would not have to be changed in future?

          As he said in a later interview, he did not want to “shoot first and aim later”?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Now we find out the inane questions the media asked — all variants of the same gotcha question — came from a liberal blog site with close ties to Axelrod and the Obama campaign.

      • Gregg Smith

        Did you hear the audio of the reporters clouding to form the narrative?

        • StilllHere

          The colloboration with the administration is deplorable.  The fourth estate is dead.

    • Ray in VT

      I certainly do not see the Cairo embassy’s statement as “trashing free speech”, as you say.  This is what the statement said, which was released prior to the attacks:

      “The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing
      efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of
      Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions.
      Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks
      on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who
      serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy.
      Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We
      firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of
      free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.”

      If you see that statement as being against free speech, then please explain your reasoning to me, because I certainly don’t see it.  We have the right to free speech and expression, although some lines have been drawn around that right over the years (such as yelling fire in a crowded theater).  But when people produce a product like this, which they are well within their right to do, which openly disrespects the founder of a religion, and we know that many of the adherents of that religion are really touchy about such actions, they should expect some bad outcomes.  A conservative co-worker of mine thinks that they should be held legally accountable for inciting a riot.  I not sure that that is the right course, but, just like that fool who wanted to burn the Koran, they should know that their actions are likely to result in bloodshed.

      Now, as for the administration’s response, I don’t think that they condemned the embassy statement, at lease not from the language that I have seen, and later statements reflected some of the sentiments of the Cairo statement, namely this:

      “While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious
      beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of
      senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants.”

      Full gotcha mode?  Please.  Governor Romney wanted to flap his gums, and he put his foot in his mouth.  You can’t blame the media for that.  Do you have a link for your coordinating accusation, and if so, then were the reporters doing anything more than discussing what they were going to ask?  The bottom line is that Romney could have avoided some of this backlash, even from within his own party, by choosing his words on this unfolding tragedy more carefully.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Did you see the news conference? It was embarrassing for the press. Romney did a great job standing on principle.

        • Ray in VT

          I did not.  In what way do you think that the press embarrassed itself?  Was it by pressing a presidential candidate on his views and comments? What principle did Mr. Romney stand on?  Is that the “apology for America’s values is never the right course” statement?  One can support free speech and still distance the American government from such inflammatory nonsense as this video.

        • BHA_in_Vermont

           Hussein stood on principle when he failed to the the world he had NO WMDs. Didn’t make him a good leader.
          Assad is standing on principle now, doesn’t make him a good leader.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         “The statement by Embassy Cairo was not cleared by Washington and does
        not reflect the views of the United States government,” a senior Obama
        administration official told Politico.

        • Ray in VT

          A disavowal, but certainly not a condemnation.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         I believe you posted the ‘second’ statement by the embassy. 

      • Gregg Smith

        The statement showed weakness, appeasement (especially preemptively) only serves to feed the frenzy. It’s like when Lara Logan was raped. She said her screams of protest excited the attackers and they got more brutal.

        • Ray in VT

          Which one showed weakness, and how was the Cairo statement appeasement?  It said that the government doesn’t support the actions of the producers of the film.  I see it more as attempting to defuse or head off potential outrage.  What should they have done?  Said something to the effect of “Hey, if you don’t like this video, then t.s.  Deal with it.”

          • Gregg Smith

            It was a stupid movie they should not have said anything. If they had to say something, yes, your suggestion would be good. Absolutely.

          • Ray in VT

            The video was out there, and my understanding is that it has only recently acquired an Arabic translation.  It was likely only a matter of time before it spread around the Islamic digital world.  The statement also didn’t mention the video, so its not like they were saying “here’s the url, go check it out”.

            It’s a good thing that you aren’t involved in foreign policy.  By all means, travel overseas, insult some people’s deeply held beliefs and then tell them to suck it.  Tell me how that works out for you.

          • Gregg Smith

            Don’t get personal. I don’t insult anyone. The movie makers may have insulted Muslims but I don’t know what it was about and they take offense easily. It’s not for the embassy to shudder in fear over a perceived slight and to assume they must apologize for all of America. America is spending untold blood and treasure liberating Muslims. A stupid little movie does not change that. This was about celebrating 9/11 in the new land of sharia.

            Do you think the embassy’s action worked?

          • Ray in VT

            I wasn’t getting personal.  I was merely suggesting that you take my suggested statement and traipse it around in some parts of the world.

            Muslims certainly do take offense to insults to their faith, and the film in question, which I have described as pretty amateurish, certainly throws some bombs at Muhammad.

            I don’t think that the embassy was “shuddering in fear”.  They were merely attempting to head things off at the pass, which, considering what has happened in the past over things such as the Koran burning, was a good idea to try.  Sh*t went down anyways.  I fail to see how criticizing their attempt is beneficial.

          • Don_B1

            I hope he doesn’t act like he does here, insulting people’s intelligence regularly, as then he wouldn’t be able to cheer us up so regularly in the future.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Well, the appeasement didn’t work did it.  The problem is that it never does.

            Perhaps it would be better to promote the merits of free speech.

            There is a movement to internationalize laws that make illegal any speech that denigrates religion.  The equivalent of international Sharia law.

          • Ray in VT

            How is it appeasement?  The embassy didn’t say that we were going to shut this guy down or do something to him.  The embassy said that our government does not support the denigration of the religious beliefs of others.  Is that appeasement?  It sure as hell isn’t giving away the Sudetenland or anything.

            I hope that you aren’t one of those people who are gnashing their teeth about Sharia law being imposed here in the U.S.  What is the movement of which you speak, and who is promoting it, either here or abroad?  Some nations see fit to put limitations on some types of inflammatory language, and that is their choice.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             It is an example of the ‘blame America first’ meme.  It sets up a false equivalence of violence and poor free speech.

            There was an Arab expert on one of the local radio stations this morning talking about the international Sharia movement.  One of the organizers has ties to the group that attacked in Libya.  The guest said the Sharia group just postponed a meeting they were planning in Boston of all places for next month.

            I’ll see if I can find a reference.

          • Ray in VT

            How is any of this “blame America first”?  If those doing the protesting/rioting are blaming America, they certainly shouldn’t be blaming our government, although some certainly will.  Now, they may be taking it out on our government because the guy is based in the U.S.  If the guy had been based in Britain, then they probably would have born the brunt of this, although some would likely have burned an American flag or two for good measure.

            I have known to some foreign born Muslims, and they certainly did have a different take of free speech as it relates to insulting the beliefs of others.  One is certainly free to advocate that view, and some countries certainly do have laws against attacking or insulting other faiths, but I do like my right to blaspheme, although I try not to do it directly to believers unless they really get in my face and tick me off.

          • Mouse_2012

            Too much talk radio, Michael Graham and the likes have been playing only part of Obama’s response to claim he was appeasing and apologizing to radical muslims while attacking the innocent film making who just wanted to express his non-bigoted POV

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Interesting that NYTimes has flipped the timeline implying that the WH was critical of the embassy BEFORE Romney released his statement.  They intentionally use both the NYTimes receipt of the Romney statement AND the release of the Romney statement.  No mention of the deleted tweets from the embassy.

        • Ray in VT

          Do you have a source for an alternate timeline or a valid source for the deleted tweets that you have mentioned?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Here is my bottom line take on this entire saga.

        There was nothing wrong with Romney’s original statement.  However, the embassy statement wasn’t very damaging to Obama.  It simply plays into the appeasement narrative.

        The bigger issues for Obama are the real problems with the so called Arab spring.

        My pet peeve is the medias treatment of Romney and their eagerness to do Axelrod’s bidding.  They’ve blown this way out of proportion just like they did with the London Olympics.

        Here is an interesting take on the media saga:
        http://washingtonexaminer.com/how-the-media-turned-obamas-foreign-policy-bungle-into-a-romney-gaffe/article/2507779#.UFHe5lGyN8H

        • Ray in VT

          I still don’t see how the embassy’s statement is any sort of appeasement.  I think that such hateful and intentionally rhetoric is abominable, but it is within the rights of the films producers to say it here in America.

          There are real problems with the Arab Spring to be sure, and the whole region has been in various states of disarray since the decline of the Ottoman Empire.  However, despite the warts that have appeared since the downfalls of some of the now departed strongmen, I think, or at least hope, that the region will ultimately be better off by opening the running of the governments to the will of their own peoples.  We may not always like those governments, and they may cause us some real problems, but shouldn’t they be able to chart their own course.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Ray, here is  some clean up

        -I stand corrected.  You posted the original statement from the embassy.

        - the radio interview I referred to was referencing a political party in Egypt who is trying to change their constitution to ban anti-muslim speech and also internationally.
         
        -This is from a piece by Rich Lowry in Politico
        “The first thing to say about this is that it shamefully aped the
        reasoning of efforts to restrict free speech in order to protect Muslim
        sensibilities. As Nina Shea of the Hudson Institute wrote of the
        statement, “It essentially upholds the Muslim anti-blasphemy standard
        that the Egyptian government applies in its ban on ‘insult to heavenly
        religions,’ and that has long been championed by the Organization of
        Islamic Cooperation in U.N. resolutions calling for the universal
        criminalization of religious defamation and in its campaign against all
        forms of ‘Islamophobia.’”http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81140.html

      • Don_B1

        First, thank you Ray, for stating the facts in this deplorable incident, which Romney and his misguided supporters are desperately flailing around trying to recover from a gaffe of the first magnitude.

        Fascinating that Worried is saying that Romney was “standing on principle”; I didn’t know he had any that were strong enough to support even a few feathers, not to mention his full weight.

        • Ray in VT

          Thanks, Don.  I do what I can.

  • Mouse_2012

    According to the guy that release the video he timed it to translate and post onto youtube on 9/11 to intentionally provoke a incident and 
     believes the movie will help his native land by exposing Islam’s flaws to the world.
    According to the U.S. officials when someone release pictures/videos of Americans torturing,abusing, Muslims they have blood on there hands and guilty of incitement (Jullian Assange rings a bell,or Brady Manning) 

    here’s the video, though I think those Muslims that rioted should face justice and retarded for being so offended there going to actually kill people(these are the guys the U.S. supported btw) but his video is  beyond retarded(kind of dumb he spent 5 million on this video) but his video is pretty bigoted and offensive but he has the right to do it. Just like others who make videos on Christians,Jews. Peaceful Protest or Boycott is a far better way than acting like savages like the people did for learn to speak teabag. 

    But just to point out when America finds someone’s speeches or videos offense we send a drone over and list them on an secret kill list. There’s a guy in Pakisan right now who the U.S. wants to kill because they don’t like what he’s saying about the U.S. even know he not convicted of any acts of terrorism

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM 

  • Mouse_2012


    American Conservative “Two things ought to be kept in mind as the furor develops. First, while an inflammatory YouTube video may have detonated the charge, the powderkeg in Libya and Egypt has other origins. If mobs can express their will by overthrowing dictators, why shouldn’t they express their will by slaughtering diplomats as well? ”

    So when the Colonies went to war with the King of England than…….What some racist and bigoted crap. This is what you call the good Muslims and the bad Muslims. In which all Muslims are bad or terrorist or terrorist supporters until they prove that there actually the good Muslim. And even still those “Good” Muslims will still be considered liars and not to be trusted because the belief that secretly a “Bad” Muslim Also notice to the American Conservative 
    Gaddafi is a Monster yet silent about Mubarak it as if he supports Dictators if there U.S. allies. Love how he talked about Bahrain or Saudi Arabia..wait it didn’t? how about Tunisia BTW Daniel Mccarthy(last name sounds familiar) is part of  theFoundation for the Defense of Democracies who is closing linked to  National Endowment for Democracy both pushed for war in Iraq and are now pushing for War with Iran who also has a 10-year history of engaging in alarmist rhetoric and fear mongering and pushed the  “Bush doctrine” also a Pro-Israeli think tank that engages in  anti-Muslim bigotryhttp://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_the_Defense_of_Democracies http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/National_Endowment_for_Democracy According to Jeffrey Blankfort, a Jewish anti-Zionist activist in California (former editor of the Middle East Labor Review, and victim of a spying operation directed against him by the ADL), the FDD:
    For those of you who haven’t heard of this “foundation,” it is one of the most influential and powerful of the Zionist lobbies which changed its name and sprung into action immediately after 9-11. If you check its board, its advisors, you’ll find a lot of familiar names, the neocons, of course, and some surprises, like the Democrat’s ranking African-American spokesperson, Donna Brazile. It claims to have seven articles from FDD sources appear in the mainstream media every day and if you check its site, that appears to be the truth. That President Bush chose this group for the first of a series of speeches defending his Iraq policy is not an accident but a genuflection to the FDD’s power. Another reflection of its power is the apparent unwillingness of the major media, such as the NY Times, to identify it for what it is.[6]
    Jeffrey Blankfort suggests that the best assessment of FDD is that it is the successor of PNAC, as many of the PNAC-associated neocons now reside at the FDD

  • JGC

    “This is a time for healing,” intones Rep. Paul Ryan, even as he continues pumping money into the race to hold on to his congressional seat; his failsafe against losing the VP option to Romney’s quick-fading presidency dreams.  Please, people, keep Rep. Ryan secure in the only line of work he has ever known and loved: government employee.

    • Don_B1

      It might be informational if he had to go find out what the private sector looks like. The sad thing is that some billionaire will provide a posh sinecure for him somewhere, where the opportunity to work in the private sector will be less educational.

  • JoshuaHendrickson

    The whole incident demonstrates:

    1.  The viciousness of rightwing religion on the part of the filmmaker.

    2.  The thin-skinned overcompensating tendencies of rightwing religion on the part of the Muslims who attacked the embassy.

    3.  The vile political opportunism of Mitt Romney.

    4.  The naivete of certain aspects of American (yes, Obama’s) foreign policy.

    5.  The good sense (unrewarded) of the embassy.

    6.  The possibility for improvement in religious tolerance as evinced by those Muslims who protested the attacks. 

    • Joseph_Wisconsin

       I would say that most Christians are still in need of some enlightenment. Nor have fundamentalist Christians abandoned violence. In 1988 the Saint Michael Theater in Paris was firebombed by fundamentalists for playing the film The Lat Temptation of Christ (based on the great novel by Nikos Kazantzakis), Several people were severely burned.

  • StilllHere

    This tragic death is symbolic of, if not directly due to, the failure of Obama to create anything close to a coherent policy when it comes to the Middle East. Apologizing to Egypt, ignoring Syria, incompetence with Iran and throwing Israel to the wolves … it is no wonder that tensions are rising in the Middle East and Americans are the targets.  Granted we shouldn’t have expected much from a guy who had no foreign policy experience, so we shouldn’t be surprised either.  Like with the economy, his on-the-job training has been a complete failure.

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      Sounds like your solution is to nuke everybody.

      A simplistic view of the Middle East is what yielded the War in Iraq and squandered and erased much our success in Afghanistan and protracted our involvement there.

      Who did Romney not fail to insult or alienate on his world tour where he demonstrated dazzling international diplomatic acumen?

      Stop listening to those tools on Fox.

  • Doug Welch

    “The Smirk” may turn out to be the defining moment of the campaign.  As for the comment that Obama did not take questions, the reason is obvious, the questions would have been about the Romney comments, and the President did not want to be sucked into that.  The crisis was still fresh, and the Administration’s focus was on the tragic loss of life.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      60 Minutes. Obama was gleeful to talk about Romney and politicize the issue. The irony is Obama was criticizing Romney for a statement that the White House agreed with until they took it down so the could attack Romney.

      • neurohazard

        Have links to a credible time line? Of course not.

        • Mouse_2012

          proof ?we don’t need no stinking proof

      • Don_B1

        Trying for the repetition of the lie to make it “true” in at least some people’s minds!

        See the earlier discussion.

  • Markus6

    I know we have to get to the usual adolescent nonsense where one side claims the republicans want to nuke everyone, or the president is purposely lowering America’s standing in the world.

    But can the kids be quiet for a while and can we just stay on the facts for a short time?

    Then we can go back to how truly evil the other side is.

  • JGC

    Who has a tendency to shoot first and aim later?

    A) Mitt Romney
    B) Dick Cheney
    C) George Zimmerman
    D) All of the above

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Gee, the WH released a similar statement right after Romney’s statement so they must be ‘shooting’ first too.

      This is all a distraction from the big issues. Obama knows he is vulnerable to the charge that he naive about the Muslim Brotherhood.

      This could be Obama’s equivalent of Carter’s hostage crisis.

      • Don_B1

        In other words, if Obama doesn’t respond he is ducking the questions (for some nefarious reason only you could invent) or if he, in a calm voice, answers the questions then he must be gleeful; so you figure out you can condemn him for each.

        And it is all to distract people from deciding that shows Romney would be a hopelessly inept president and that must never happen.

        • BHA_in_Vermont

          “and that must never happen.”

          Which? Must not show that Romney would be a hopelessly inept president or must not let him become a hopelessly inept president?

          Oh, right. BOTH!

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Should we be surprised that after a weeks of spiking the football on Bin Laden’s killing and using his death in political bumper stickers that radical Islam would be offended launch another terrorist act in retaliation?

    I’m surprised no one has connected the dots. After all, OBL is still their martyr hero.

  • Gregg Smith

    It is stunning the show’s description lays the blame on some stupid short film and does not even mention this happened on 9/11. The inmates are now running the asylum in the Middle East. They want to kill us and their new leaders are all for it. this was an act of war. 
     
    Obama constantly thumping his chest at having killed their hero doesn’t help matters.

    • StilllHere

      When it’s all you’ve got, it’s all you can thump.

    • Mouse_2012

      Simple minded black and white view.

      “They want to kill us” is a complete generalization “and their new leaders are all for it” is another  

      “Obama constantly thumping his chest at having killed their hero doesn’t help matters” again yet another the vast majority of muslims don’t/didn’t support OBL. Yet here we have Greg claiming OBL is there hero.

      • Gregg Smith

        The ones that are rioting in the streets parading the corpse of our ambassador are indeed supporters of Obama. 

        • Gregg Smith

          Yikes, I meant Osama.

          • Mouse_2012

            sure you did. Good thing there’s not edit function or anything.

          • Gregg Smith

            It was a mistake but yea, I could have edited it. It had a certain rig so I corrected it as was my want. 

            Gadaffi endorsed Obama in 2008.

    • neurohazard

      Of course you refuse to acknowledge that Bush’s wars against TWO Islamaic nations… one an illegal war of aggression against a nation that posed no threat to us, played NO role in inflaming the mideast.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Nor has our unwavering support of Israel “no matter what”.

  • J__o__h__n

    Civilized people of any religion don’t murder people when they are offended.  Islam needs to go through its own Enlightenment so its worst most ignorant and violent members are held in check.  For all their flaws, the Mormons didn’t kill anyone over the Book of Mormon musical.  Despite centuries of violence, the most the Catholics do now is protest.  The Scientologists are content with countless lawsuits.  Islam isn’t inherently worse than any of the other religions but most of the rest of them have passed to a stage of being able to coexist with people who disagree with them or even mock them.  Freedom of speech is more important than not offending people.  Salman Rushdie still isn’t free to give readings in India.

    • Don_B1

      It is dispiriting, but the fact that a lot of Muslims got out in the streets to protest the attacks of the radicals is heartening. Maybe they are realizing that they have some power if they start speaking up. Maybe they are remembering what a Palestinian Imam said: that Mohammed invented Islam to civilize the Arabs, but that, so far, Arab leaders have used it to subjugate their people by twisting its meanings. Outside of the Arab countries, not so much (Iran being the big exception).

      Remember the Western Enlightenment took over a hundred years of violence. The difference is that there were no means of instant communication and widespread ability to read; today the world is much better equipped to speed that transformation, but the human mind, in at least some individuals, can resist with many types of irrationalities. Some of the fundamentalists of the Christian persuasion are barely beyond the violent stage even here.

      It will not be easy or tomorrow, but it will happen.

  • J__o__h__n

    I hope no one misapplies the yelling fire in a theater principle as a reason to limit speech.  A reasonable person reacts to a fire alarm by trying to leave, which can cause a panic and thus result in death, which is why falsely yelling fire is banned.  A reasonable person does not react to being insulted or being insulted on behalf of an alleged god, by murdering people or rioting.  Deciding which speech can be legal depends on the actual incitement to violence content of the speech and the reaction of the victims shouldn’t be a factor.  The Supreme Court made the wise decision that burning the US flag is constitutional.  Should the flag receive less protection because those offended by its dishonor react less violently?

    • Ellen Dibble

      “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”  When addressing yourself to the Islamic world, there is that which is beyond idiotic.  Words, in the realm of the sacred, in any serious religion, have real weight.  And when words are intentionally used to insult, then it is hard to defend it.  That is disrespectful.  Not illegal.  Idiotic.

      • Gregg Smith

        But isn’t it only idiotic because they are so irrationally thin-skinned? 

    • Don_B1

      You nicely get right to the point: the first amendment enshrining free speech has overwhelmingly served this country well.

      While we should not and I am sure will not back down on that, it does not mean that we cannot also recognize that “freedom of speech” is, if not brand-new, a not well-understood value in the Middle East, outside of Israel. It is not something that they have that much experience with, and what experience they have is from observing it  in Israel if they can.

      The current Middle East crisis is basically two dimensional:

      1) The attack on Islam is real to Arabs, who have seen a lot of xenophobia, not limited to radical Arabs twisting Islam to their uses which most Arab citizens reject. But these widespread public attacks on Islam have convinced many Middle East Arabs that they are hated for being Muslim, which makes it harder for them to stand up for free speech.

      It was not that easy for liberals to stand up for flag burning and, while the fundamentalists here in the U.S. consider patriotism (almost?) the same as religion and therefore flag burners are “traitors,” so as long as I see some progress, I can appreciate their reluctance to fight strongly on this issue.

      2) It is clear that the people that made the attacks had set up this religious affront to cover their real intents, which are multiple from independent militias in Libya to revanchist groups in Egypt. All of which is unfortunate but really not surprising in the chaos of the Arab Spring moving from revolt against dictators to learning some form of self-government. Just because the U.S. went from the Declaration of Independence in 1776 to the unamended Constitution by 1789 does not mean it was accomplished in 23 years (and with a rebellion along the way), but the British settlers had over 150 years of partial self-government over that part where issues of tolerance were dealt with (notably inMassachusetts)

      I do not see an “apology” in any form in making strong statements that the film the “rioters” claimed to be the reason for their rioting is a repugnant, despicable film and simultaneously stating that it does not represent the U.S. but also make the case that the U.S. has found that it is not in the best interest of religion for governments to be enforcing rules against one group slandering any other religion.

      The problem with the Romney approach is that Romney is conveying to Arabs that the U.S. does “hate” Islam in all its forms, because he is not being discerning in his comments.

      What is fascinating this afternoon is that Romney has apparently weasel-worded a “take-back” of his Wednesday comments and now all of Fox News and Rush are left to defend his atrocious original lies. 

  • MrNutso

    The film is really a side issue.  It’s clear that the attack in Libya was planned for 9/11.  The demonstrations related to the film just gave the attackers more cover, and it’s convenient for them that the film now clouds the issue.  I think Libya was picked as a target, because the Libyans welcomed U.S. intervention and are now friendly to the U.S.  I think the friendly relationship we have with Libya and especially Ambassador Stevens efforts perhaps lulled us into a false sense of security.

    Among all the rhetoric about this event, not enough has been said about the heroic efforts of Libyan security forces defending the consulate and getting Americans to safety and medical attention.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       How about the spiking of the football on the killing of OB?.  There were a lot of OBL references in the signs in Egypt.

      • MrNutso

        Perhaps, but what was the real instigation of the protests in Cairo, OBL or the movie?  I think the movie is what brought people out, and OBL is just piling on.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           We’ll see.  It looks like this was in the works for a while — from the early reporting.  I saw a report today from an Arab researcher that they were using anti-Muslim cartoons until the video trailer came out and switched to that as a target of opportunity. 

          This is all about 9/11, radical Islam and anti-western extremists.  The movie was just a tool.

    • Don_B1

      I totally agree with you and would only add the fact that Libya still has a number of armed militias, now aligned against the current government, from Gaddafi’s days when he ruled through a number of independent militias recruited from all over Libya (different tribes) and Africa to protect himself from coups. It would appear that one of these militias could have been recruited for this “task,” and the current Libyan government thinks it knows which one.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Both Obama and Clinton yesterday reiterated the American value for human dignity, and I’d like to know specifically what the protesting groups — in Libya but also in Cairo and Yemen — think this nation is doing wrong.  Perhaps they don’t understand that in a democracy like ours there is huge opportunity for making offensive statements (consider the Republicans and Democrats, for instance).  And to crack down on that kind of freedom to make a fool of yourself were curtailed we’d back into the kind of restraints that I thought the Arab Spring was about throwing off.  I don’t think anyone is saying that all Americans are dignified.  But I think it’s hard to put ourselves in the shoes of people who have not enjoyed freedom of speech for generations.  

    • J__o__h__n

      The Arab Spring started out reform-minded but the Islamists are interested in replacing dictators with religion.  The facebook and twitter types who started it weren’t numerous enough or organized to fill the power vacuum.  The west didn’t develop individual rights and exert some control over religion overnight and they won’t either.  Mere voting does not equal freedom. 

      • notafeminista

        No but it’s a big fat step towards it.   “Mere voting”  til you need an ID right?  (wink wink nudge nudge)

        • J__o__h__n

          Not really.  Individual rights developed in the west prior to voting rights which followed.  Voting for the religious dicatators favored by the majority won’t advance freedom. 

          • Mouse_2012

            1960?1970? or 2012?

          • notafeminista

            As opposed to voting for secular dictators favored by the majority?

          • J__o__h__n

            They are more likely to eventually emerge free from a secular dictator than a religious one.

      • Ellen Dibble

        I think the people might see the dictatorships as having been supported by the United States, and to some extent the United States still sends aid.  The BBC had an Egyptian MP pointing out that the US is right to say Egypt is not an ally; Egypt, MP Hamzawi said, is an ally of Israel and Saudi Arabia.  The United States is apparently giving Egypt the freedom to chart their own course.  There are monetary consequences, but apparently Morsi is seeking private investment from Americans, and the integrity of the country will help determine that.  If the Egyptians are comfortable with the kind of oppression from the new government that they saw the Americans enforcing under the old government, religious oppression, well, as you say, individual rights don’t happen overnight.  Consider any two-year-old.  The right to say no is quintessential, but needs to be cultivated.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       ”Perhaps they don’t understand that in a democracy like ours there is huge opportunity for making offensive statements”

      I’m sure they do not. It is so far from anything they have experienced, they can not understand it or even know it exists.

      The world would be better off if everyone could say “ONE   did something stupid and should be ignored”.

      • Ellen Dibble

        No Kidding!  What a powder keg.  Remember the assassination that started World War I?   Then it was the sanctity of the royal succession that was the straw that broke the camel’s back, or however the saying goes.  Now those “straws” may be videos.  I hope the imams are explaining to their people in Friday’s services that non-Muslims can be bullies, and sometimes they are intentionally offensive, but get a grip, their faith can take it. 

        • BHA_in_Vermont

           ”but get a grip, their faith can take it. ”

          That would be nice, and ironically, in line with the teachings of their Prophet.

  • Joseph_Wisconsin

    Yeah, #%&@! religion. All of them.
    If not for religion would Jews and Palestinians still be fighting
    over a stinking little piece of desert for over 62 years? The
    radical Islamists, the maker of that hate film, and that nut-job
    preacher in Florida. Put them all in in a cage match separate from
    rational people and may the best god win.

    It is a wake up call to America I hope
    about what not just a few radical Islamic groups in the Middle-East
    and Central Asia feel about America, but much of the population in
    that area. And why should they not? From Mosaddegh, to our, as
    convenient, support and than opposition to the Taliban, same for
    Saddam Hussein and Mubarak, through 60 years of a support Israel
    right or wrong policy. Romney and others who say the solution is to
    get even tougher on all Islamic states there, to bind the US even
    more to Israel, confirm what I have suspected about the current
    Republican Party. That they think that they can take us and the
    world back to the 19th Century. No way, gun boat
    diplomacy will not work in today’s world.

     

    • OnpointListener

      See my post made just after yours.  I agree with your assessment.  I also think that the release of the video was purposeful and the perpetrators are accomplishing their goal.  We need to stand up for the President.

      • TribalGuitars

         The maker released a statement that said he made the movie knowing (daresay “hoping”) that it would bring violent action.  He said that while he’s sorry people died he basically added, “Oh, well,” to the end of his statement, effeictively washing his hands of responsibility.

  • OnpointListener

    Let’s withdraw all
    of our soldiers, diplomats, and WEAPONS from the Middle East and North Africa.
    Let those countries determine their own destiny, fight their own wars, and find
    their own peace.

    The release of the
    film onto the internet was purposeful and meant to drag the US into Israel’s
    fight against its enemies and to alter the presidential election by creating a
    window for the neo-cons to criticize Obama’s handling of the Middle
    East.

    That plan is working
    because many Americans lack the mental capacity and energy to learn the long and
    ignoble history of US and Middle Eastern relations.

    Obama was handed a
    sh*t sandwich without the bread. The Middle East was a tinderbox before he took
    office and it will be after he leaves office, even if that’s 4 years from now
    instead of in January. The President has been deliberate and careful in a
    complex and explosive environment.

    We should be
    supporting the President right now.  We should resist rhetoric and focus on the issues.

    We should resist the Israeli call to a pre-emptive war.  

    Instead of policing the world, we should be pouring every effort into developing clean alternative energy sources and putting people in this country to work doing it.

  • Mouse_2012

    Ok O and R bots,

    explain this one-

    Obama said per the BCC Egpyt is not considered a ally while the place where 4 americans were killed the government of Libya Bonds will not be broken (paraphasing) Feel free to explain this one? I see it as Geo-politics and oil in which a allies commits a act deemed x,y,z, it’s waterdowned while a non U.S. puppet or former U.S. puppet it’s insert ________ outrage.

    P.S.

    The group that did the killing is part of the TNC government.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Egypt is not a key ally because our government has no idea what their will do. If that settles out and they show a steady alliance (whatever that means), they will again be an ally.

      With respect to Libya, the government had nothing to do with the attack on the embassy nor the murders. 

      • Mouse_2012

        It’s been reported that the people who attacked the embassy are part of the government and effected the response time. This was first admitted on the prior day BBC and when such became bad PR it was ommitted on MSM

  • Mouse_2012

    Bingo, the guy who made the video admits just that “For his country” was the wording. Released on 9/11 in arabic for maxium outrage

  • NancyFourCorners

    The stupidity of Cheney/Bush/Rummy and the neo-CONS lost defense for Republicans as a winning issue… they can blame no one else.

    President Obama has masterfully handled foreign policy in one of the greatest periods of political turmoil and transition the planet has ever seen.

    The buffoon, Romney, will be neo-CON blundering on steroids… let’s hope we won’t have to see it!

    • Brandstad

      Really Obama has masterfully handled foreign policy?
       
      So it was genius to insult England by returning a gift that has been in the Oval office since shortly after 911?
       
      So it was genius to allow a dictator that protected minorities in his country and liked the US to be overthrown by the Muslim Brotherhood who are now crucifying Christians and stoning women?
       
      So it was genius to NOT support the Syrian opposition that loves America and they begged Obama to help in any way possible, money, food, weapons, no fly zone.  They were ignored even though Syrian leaders are currently working against American interests around the world.
       
      So it was genius to bring members of the Muslim Brotherhood into the Whitehouse for meetings but he is refusing to meet with the democratically elected leader of Israel

      • NancyFourCorners

        I hope your comment was meant to be a joke, instead of unintentionally being a joke.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         The Churchill bust was not a gift, it was a loan from Tony Blair to GWB for his term in office. There was an offer to extend the loan when Obama took office and he declined. There is an identical bust of Churchill in the White House private residence (property of the USA) where it has been for years. It is fully appropriate for him to decorate the Oval Office with images of whoever or whatever inspires him.

        So we are supposed to support dictators even when the democratic process is forcing him out? Which side of our mouths should we talk out of? Obama stuck with Mubarak until it was clear that “the people had spoken”.

        And we should ship money and arms to a non cohesive group of rebels in Syria? Don’t get me wrong, Assad is scum. BUT: you have NO idea who you would be arming. Supporting the Libyan resistance didn’t happen until it was clear that there was a viable, committed and organized group that had a chance of succeeding. 

        The Muslim Brotherhood is a group new to power in Egypt. Clearly NOT the first choice of ANY western government given their history. But they were voted in DEMOCRATICALLY. We, the USA, presumably cherish democracy above all else (well, OK, just below the almighty $$). That is why we force regime change on countries where we don’t (or used to but no longer) like the dictator. Mubarak’s decades of repeated re-election in Egypt were as “clean and democratic” as Hussein’s re-elections in Iraq. Perhaps Mr. Obama thought he could help shape a stable Egyptian government with dialog. He has to play the cards he was dealt. Netanyahu has proven time and again that he and Israel are our “friend” as long as we give them money and look the other way when they break international law. I don’t see him offering anything in a meeting other than photo ops.

        • NancyFourCorners

          Thanks BHA… I wasn’t willing to give the idiotic comment as much attention, as anyone but a Rabid Rightie could easily see it as utterly devoid of merit.

  • TribalGuitars

    Romney took some heat for making this political, but the Republicans are starting to do what they always do – Line up like ducks. McCain’s already saying that this happened because of a lack of leadership by Obama. Exactly what that lack of leadership was lacks an explanation and details, which seems to be another Republican trait these days.

    Was Obama supposed to personally know this movie was being made, and stopped it?  Was he supposed to make freedom of speech the prime issue and tell the Middle East “Tough. Get over it.”? Was there some sort of security protocol that wasn’t be followed, or is the US supposed to put 50,000 troops in every country in the Middle East, “just in case”? 

    McCain’s statement, sadly, makes it sound like more sour grapes from the guy that lost the last election. McCain cried out for US involvement in Libya during the revolution against Quadafi , then when the US supplied aid he cried foul and that the US involvement was all wrong. 

    • Brandstad

      After the Muslum Brotherhood gained control of Egypt with Obamas help, we should have cut all Millitary aid for Egypt and removed our embacy since the Muslum Brotherhood is a sister group to al qaeda

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Mr. Obama was asked point blank about the threat of the Muslim brotherhood in a national TV interview during the super bowl, Feb. 2010.

        He poo pooed the Muslim brotherhood and claimed there was no way they would ever come into power in Egypt.

      • Mouse_2012

        Silly rabbit tricks are for kids, both the WH and Congress supported the Egyptian despot till it was well known that he was going down.

        Remember this

        Secretary Clinton in 2009: “I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family”

      • J__o__h__n

        If we cut off all aid to Egypt, what protection would the US be able to leverage for Israel?  The whole region is a mess and Obama is trying to balance.  Obama didn’t help the Muslim Brotherhood.  He supported Mubarak until it was obvious he lost.  I never thought the Arab Spring would unfold any way other than it has but there is only so much the US can do. 

        • Brandstad

          The group that threw out Mubarak were the same people that we see in the us “Occupy Wall Street”

          • AF_Whigs

            So now people shouldn’t be allowed to protest?  Violence is reprehensible.  But we can’t pay lip service to promoting democracy around the world and then complain about the results.  Countries have to find their own way, even if we don’t like the choices they make.  It’s not democracy if we interfere.

          • Ray in VT

            I didn’t know that Occupy Wall Street was full of Egyptians.  I guess that you learn something new every day.

      • TribalGuitars

         The question I have is why were we sending people to talk to the young people that were at the heart of this as telling them to pick some leaders, the pros an cons of democracy, etc, without trying to push a US agenda on them. 

        We could be doing the same in Iran, where most of the people don’t agree with their leaders. We should be fostering ideas without any agenda other than helping them become a free nation.

  • Brandstad

    I thought Obama was going to heal the world and bring international love for America!

    It sure seems to me that the Arab Fall has only increased international anger for America.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       That’s gratitude for you.

    • AF_Whigs

      And the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan had nothing to do with it.

  • BHA_in_Vermont

    To the On Point producers:

    You are NOT going to follow Morning Edition’s lead and play ANY part of this vile film. Not video and not audio.

    RIGHT?!?!?!?

    I don’t know when I have ever felt that NPR has been so irresponsible.
    - Talk about the film in context.
    - Describe it in the LEAST detail possible
    - DO NOT PLAY THE AUDIO

    The jerks that made this film have had WAY too much exposure already. There is no need to potentially inflame those who have not yet heard any part of the hateful, bigoted film.

    • J__o__h__n

      Playing the audio is not irresponsible.  The media censoring the cartoons was disgraceful.  We can’t pander to the violent mob. 

      • Gregg Smith

        You’re all over it today J_O_H_N. Thanks.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Choosing not to air something inflammatory when it is not needed to understand the story is irresponsible and is not censorship. No one submitted the movie to NPR saying “please air this in my usual segment”. Telling YOU that you can not watch the movie would be censorship.

  • bethrjacobs

    is there any question that the CIA is bejind this and why wouldn’t every person in the middle east want our murdering raping US asses out of there now 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Is there any question?  Yes.  In fact, the question regarding your comment is what evidence is there that the CIA was involved.

      • bethrjacobs

        would love to find it and put murder incorporated out of busness

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           Would love to find it, but haven’t yet, it seems.

          • bethrjacobs

            What a stupid question Greg but all the same on behalf of
            all the blue eyed babies whose American daddies take no responsibility for them
            born in the third world and on behalf of all the people our foreign services
            disappear and torture I would love to find the proof and put murder
            incorporated out of business forever and their wet works out of commission forever
            as well in fact if there was a way I would love to make it my job to take all
            our torturers rapists murderers and instigators off the US tax payers payroll
            period perhaps you are one of those contractors too or why would you stand up
            for them.

  • TribalGuitars

    The movie was designed to piss off the Middle East. It was designed to denigrate Islam, and while all religions need to be
    held up to criticism, as well as some mockery from time to time., it wasn’t even remotely critical, nor was it satirical as the Danish cartoons were.

  • bethrjacobs

    Is there any question that the CIA is behind this and besides why wouldn’t every single person in the third world want our murdering raping US asses out of there yesterday

  • Mouse_2012

    Did he just say “We don’t know who made the video”?

    And this guy is supposely a reporter

    Anti-Islam Filmmaker In Hiding After Attacks
    http://www.npr.org/2012/09/12/160987602/anti-islam-filmmaker-in-hiding-after-protests?plckFindCommentKey=CommentKey:dd03c1e1-27fb-481b-9bb7-7e0698cf87ba

    A filmmaker based in California went into hiding after a YouTube trailer of his movie attacking Islam’s prophet Muhammad sparked angry assaults by ultra-conservative Muslims on U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three American members of his staff were killed.
    What We Know About ‘Sam Bacile,’ The Man Behind The Muhammad Movie Sept. 12, 2012
    Speaking by phone Tuesday from an undisclosed location, writer and director Sam Bacile remained defiant, saying Islam is a cancer and that the 56-year-old intended his film to be a provocative political statement condemning the religion.

    The guy is a Israeli American

  • MrNutso

    It’s bad enough that we have our own born in the U.S. of A. morons doing sh!t like this, but now we have foreign born morons doing the same thing.

  • Gregg Smith

    When the oppressed populations in the Middle East saw the people of Iraq and Afghanistan freed from their suffering they took note. How could they not? By 2009 the people of Iran nearly pulled of a revolution and asked for our help. President Bush staunchly stood by the people of Iran but Obama didn’t lift a finger. That was the last best chance to avoid war and he blew it. Uprisings in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and elsewhere began to spring up. Obama floundered. He let France lead (God bless them) and while he fiddled Gadaffi regained strength and thousands died. In Egypt he was quick to show Mubarek the door. Mubarek was highly flawed but we had a working relationship. Now not so much. People like Hannity and Beck were raked over the coals for suggesting the Muslim Brotherhood would eventually rule. They were right. 

    George Bush was right about terrorism and radical Islam. The face of the entire Middle East must be changed. As long as people are brutally oppressed by theocratic dictators we are not safe. We can’t check out because they are already at war with us. This has never been about something as small and petty as revenge. Whack-a-mole does not work. The world needs America’s leadership. We should have had people on the ground in Egypt and Libya to help steer events. We should have a propaganda campaign and stand with groups fighting brutal oppression. Funding them where appropriate. We have the influence and we have the universal human passion for freedom on our side. You can bet your sweet bippy radical elements are doing the same with astonishing success. They don’t fear us.  

    • Mouse_2012

      twit twit twit

      While decrying obama for not supporting the “People of Iran” greg than attacks obama for not supporting the Dictator enough against the “People of Egpyt” 

      • Gregg Smith

        Geo-politics is complicated. Every situation is different. Clearly things have not gone well in Egypt or Libya under Obama’s leadership… or lack thereof.

        • Mouse_2012

          Otherwords America must support freedom and democracy unless such Tyrant is a U.S. ally.

          Got it.

          • BHA_in_Vermont

             RIGHT! It has worked really well for decades. All people in every country we support loves us unconditionally  for our benevolence.

            There is no better foreign policy than “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

          • Gregg Smith

            They don’t need to love us, just fear us.

          • BHA_in_Vermont

             Hey, now THERE is a good policy for world peace. Time to ramp up the Arms Race again.

          • Gregg Smith

            We must always side with the lessor of two evils. As I said, it’s complicated. Clearly Mubarek was the lessor of two evils. If there’s just too much evil then we kick ass.

    • Shag_Wevera

      Is it really our duty to “change the face” of 1.5 billion muslims?  You may be an arrogant westerner.

      • Gregg Smith

        I don’t share your broad brush analysis. I don’t believe all 1.5 billion Muslims are radical jihadist. To me that would be the arrogant view. I believe most are the poor and oppressed yearning to be free.

        • Shag_Wevera

          Then we agree.

    • AF_Whigs

      So you’re saying Egypt doesn’t have a right to choose its own rulers?  Maybe Egypt and others in the Middle East feel the same way about us.  How are our interests more justified than theirs?  It shouldn’t be our business to “steer events” in other countries.  We’ve done far too much of that around the world in the last century.  In the Middle East, the more we intervene, the more anti-US sentiment we create.

      No, Muslim extremists having power anywhere isn’t good for us – or the common people in those countries – but military intervention doesn’t work. 

      America needs to work with the rest of the world in leading the way.  We can no longer do everything ourselves, and we can’t play this game of constant intervention around the world while cutting social programs and education budgets because the deficit has suddently become the latest political flash point.

      • Gregg Smith

        I did not suggest military intervention willy nilly over other options. There were radical elements all over the Middle East swarming to Egypt to “steer events”. What was it Edmund Burke said?

  • Potter

    What’s wrong with this picture? Killing innocent people, storming and burning embassies, the media spreading hatred, in defense of their religion to protect the Prophet from insult.

    The Prophet would be insulted by this.

    • Brandstad

      We can’t insult Muslums, but we can tell Catholics how to worship.

      • Potter

        We don’t tell Catholics how to worship. We do tell Catholics and others that they cannot tell everyone else what is permitted or not according to their beliefs

      • Mouse_2012

        Can we? I must of missed the press release.

    • Shag_Wevera

      How do you know they are innocent?  Do you purport to speak for Allah?  Some would find this highly offensive (and quite ignorant).

      • Potter

        Our Ambassador and his colleagues were innocent.

        • Shag_Wevera

          How do you know this?  Innocence is a very specific trait.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    The movie was just a tool for a pre-planned protest.  They were going to use anti-Muslim cartoons until the trailer became available.

    • Shag_Wevera

      The preceding was nothing more than the opinion of the poster.  No evidence exists to justify his supposition.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         We’ll see.  I heard an interview with an Arab researcher this morning who has been following this and he made this claim.  He has been following the social media in Arabic for months.

      • neurohazard

        Come on… W is a independent thinker who does his own research, not some slavish far right-winger! He told me so himself! 

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           You have serious problems.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           I could give you a link to his website but then I would be appeasing.

          • neurohazard

            No, then for once you’d be engaging in intellegent debate. Readers have a RIGHT to know your sources so they can evaluate them for themselves.

            If you’re getting your “facts” from right wing lunatics like Glenn Beck, then Readers have a RIGHT to know that.

          • Gregg Smith

            Glenn Beck was dead on when he predicted all of this a year ago. You rely on Rachel Maddow and you criticize Beck? That’s rich.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    It is not our obligation to protect the Prophet Muhammend or any other prophet from insult.  It’s our job to protect free speech and freedom of religion.  I haven’t seen the video and have no intention of watching it, but the producers had the right to make it.

    These attackers are nothing but thugs and murderers and must be treated as such.

    • Shag_Wevera

      And how do you propose we do that?

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         If this was a coordinated attack, shove a few cruise missiles into their homes.

        • Shag_Wevera

          You believe we are omnipotent.

  • Jim Griess

    Confuscious said, “Never give a sword to a man who can’t dance”.  Romney is moving his feet before he hears the music. 

  • MrNutso

    Some observations about Romney’s response:

    He thinks the election is only about the economy and so hasn’t prepared himself to address international affairs.

    He has partly built his campaign around the lie that the President apologizes for America.

    The title of his book “No Apologies” means he could not back away from his original statement.

    • Brandstad

      Romney’s response was more presidential than Obama’s!

      Have you listened to the two?

      Please name a former US president that has bowed to more foreign leaders?

      Obama himself admits he is trying to “Change” America!  Romney is trying to Restore America!

      • Shag_Wevera

        Bowing is a show of respect.  Do you denigrate a samurai who bows to another?

      • MrNutso

        Yeah, restore America to the 1890′s.  Gun boat diplomacy and robber barons.

        Romney’s response was the opposite of Presidential, because all he did was attack the President.

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Working with others and treating them as the EQUALS that they are is NOT bowing to them.

      • AF_Whigs

        Change America from Bush/Cheney?  I hope so!  How many foreign countries would Mitt have us involved in militarily? 

        If “bowing” to foreign leaders means trying to compromise and understand their point of view, then that’s what he SHOULD be doing.  The President’s job is not to enforce our will on the rest of the world.  That’s why we’re hated by so many, and it’s not getting us anywhere.

  • Rex Henry

    So it’s my understanding that Romney supports the video that incited the riots.

    That or he just wants to say the opposite of the President just because.

    • Shag_Wevera

      Mitt is a tool.  A rich tool, which is sad in its own right.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/7T4DWPW2GLEZBJG7Y46W7NHKUQ Bill

    We do not seem to learn from the past. We keep doing the same wrong thing over and over.
    Obviously, this is an israelis skid to do multiple things in one shot. 
    1-Distract the world attention of the what is the israelis are doing in Palestine against Palestinians.
    2-Revenge against the US for not backing up the israelis to launch strike against Iran.
    3-Flaming the West against Muslims and keep the West eyes on making Muslims and Arabs are the West #1 enemy.

    It is a shame that the Egyptians, Libyans or others who respond to such propaganda that the israelis starts broadcasting in media and internet and initiating the protests in such countries that are so ignorant and act on them without verification.

    On the issue of religion, we have seen many times that certain groups are willing to go to the extreme to defend their ideology. Look to what did the Jews do making it illegal to say any negative word about Jews… ”Antisemitic”.  So, how come it is ok and part of freedom of speech to defame other religions, but not israelis?

    I really do not agree that nor accept that you defend your ideology with violence, but we should not expect that we do something to antagonize others and we expect them to just watch and think it is freedom of speech….

    • Shag_Wevera

      I must admit, I don’t care much about #1.

  • NancyFourCorners

    The embassy officials issued their statement while holed up in the embassy, scared for their lives, which some of them would soon lose in service to their country.

    Americans should be utterly ashamed of Ryan/Romney and their campaign for criticizing the statement they made while trying to quell the violence they could see from their windows… a statement they made while trying to save their own lives!

  • ewohur

    This movie should be viewed as bullying, provocative and hateful. The spotlight is now upon the USA to see whether the producers of the movie will be held accountable. 

    • AF_Whigs

      But that’s now how the US works, is it?  We hold freedom of speech very dear (most of the time).  People should not be killed for their ideas, no matter how abhorrent.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Accountable for what? The most appropriate analogy is “Guns don’t kill people, people with guns kill people”.

      Could a reasonable person forsee that the recent riots and murders in North Africa could be sparked by a disgusting film intended to pi$$ off a lot of people? Sure. But how do you prove that the idiots that made the movie intended to cause someone to murder a U.S. Ambassador and his staff in Libya?

  • Shag_Wevera

    These countries would be an afterthought without petroleum.

  • BHA_in_Vermont

    Romney needs to slap some duct tape over his mouth and start listening. Maybe even THINKING. One can “apologize” to the people offended by an action taken by someone in the USA without apologizing for “American Values”.

    We, the supremely entitled, greatest nation ever, police to the world, USA have run roughshod over most of the world for decades. It is time to stop saying “We are the USA, therefore WE know what is best for everyone in the world (ignorant fools that you all are)” and start saying “How do we work with the rest of the world for the betterment of all”. 

    • AF_Whigs

      BHA:  that’s the most intelligent comment I’ve read on the internet in a long time. 

      We need to be clear here – “Libyans” did not do this, extremists did.  That would be like saying “America” perpetrated the Oklahoma City bombing.  This was a horrible thing, and there is no justification for violence. 

      Rattling our sabres and harumphing about “justice” or “revenge” or how “strong” we need to be in the world is just political nonsense.   Our nation is very tone deaf in dealing with the Middle East.  This isn’t a bar fight.  We shouldn’t act like it is.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    We helped the Libyians gain their freedom, and this is the response?  Perhaps they need a high explosive reminder that killing their friends won’t be tolerated.

    • Gregg Smith

      Thank you for making that point. We have been fighting and dying for Muslims for a very long time.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        We should help people when they ask, but we should also give clear reminders of the help that we provide with the clear expectation of gratitude in return.

        • BHA_in_Vermont

           Generally speaking, civilized people help others because there is a need, not because they want “gratitude”. It is morally corrupt to help someone ONLY if they promise to be grateful in return.

          Perhaps anyone who offers you assistance when you need help should preface it with “Tell me first what you are going to do for me later so I know if I want to help you now”

          “Pay it forward” 

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             That’s a pleasant idea within a civilized society, but international politics ain’t Kumbaya.

      • JGC

        But are we really fighting for Muslims, or are we fighting for their oil? 

        • Gregg Smith

          Unfortunately we did not take a drop of oil but I think we should have. I’m with Trump on that one. We are not safe if the radical jihadist gain a bigger foothold. Neither is the rest of the world. I truly believe this is a fight for civilization. I know it sounds dramatic but that’s where I’m at. Sue me.

          • JGC

            Do you mean confiscate their oil? The U.S. imported 167,690 thousand  barrels from Iraq last year. They are around 6 or 7 down on a long list of countries that export oil to the U.S. 

          • Gregg Smith

            Yea, I mean confiscate. It’s not that popular a view.

      • neurohazard

        TRANSLATION: We’ve been KILLING Muslims for a long time. Hell, they are sitting on OUR OIL!!!!

        Why don’t you just say so.

    • MrNutso

      The real response was to try and protect the consulate, get people to safety and medical treatment.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Let’s see a VERY SMALL NUMBER of Libyans attack the US Embassy so that means everyone in the entire country is an ingrate and should be blown away.

      You might want to also consider that not EVERYONE in Libya wanted Qaddafi gone.

    • Brandstad

      You can never do enough for people used to begging for a living…

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Dude, you are having a seriously “Republican” day aren’t you?

    • Ray in VT

      One need not characterize this as the actions of the Libyan people.  It isn’t presently clear if this was a planned attack and if it was who was really behind it.  I do not think that some “high explosive reminders” would serve our interests well in this case.

  • Call_Me_Missouri

    Mitt Romney is a socially handicapped person.  We should feel sorry for him and hire him as an Affirmative Action hire.

    And about Lybia and Egypt…  You would think that they would respect OUR freedoms… since they fought to have them for themselves.  

    • MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

      How dare you show weakness by sympathizing with Romney for his handicaps. ;^))

      • Call_Me_Missouri

        What can I say…  I’m a bleeding heart liberal.

  • Potter

    The President should maybe get out here, if this goes on, and yes apologize for the film but also talk about Muslims needing to tolerate freedom of expression and that this film does not represent us.

    Do they want our tourism, to sell us their oil?

    The Egyptian President should get out there and tell his people about freedom of expression which is supposedly part of the Arab Spring.

  • Stephen706

    This is a coordinated intended purposeful attack. This is not about a 6-month old posted video that is being used as a scapegoat reason

  • BHA_in_Vermont

    OMG, the president of Libya is apologizing to the USA for the actions taken by it citizens.

    What a wus. What a WEAKLING. APOLOGIZING!!!!!

    • Gregg Smith

      Apologizing for a murderous act of war and worrying a stupid move might hurt someone’s feelings. Yea, they’re the same thing.

      • Ellen Dibble

        As I understand it, the Islamic organization in Egypt has been a stabilizing factor in Egypt for generations.  People rely on it, for food, support, organization of what matters.  One thing that matters, religion.  It certainly sounds like parts of Islam are very unsure whether westerners value their faith.

        • Gregg Smith

          We have seen it before with Hezbollah when Syria pulled out of Lebanon. Terrorist organizations can easily manipulate the brutally oppressed. To me it’s like drug dealers going to slums recruiting help. 

    • Ellen Dibble

      I recall the State Department, I believe Hillary Clinton, saying that Libya was a tricky country to be contemplating liberation because of the centers of al kaida that exist there.  We read in the news about jihad throughout north Africa, but apparently there are some  very specific concerns in that Benghazi area.  As the panelists say, apparently the president knows.  A group was prepared to take advantage of the cover of unrest, something like that. 

  • J__o__h__n

    Not being provoked to violence by offensive idiots is how civilized people conduct themselves.

    • Call_Me_Missouri

      I agree, but it should be noted that the people who live in these countries had two things going against them…

      1.  They were told by their media that this film was seen by more than 2 people, which I don’t think it was.

      2.  They have never had the freedom of speech themselves and as a result they have not had 200 years to develop the thick skin and emotional control that we in the US have.  We have plenty of experience with this sort of stupidity…  I mean… they’re letting a monument be built for the KKK in Selma, Alabama.

  • Brandstad

    Protesters storm American embassy in Yemen… 

    US Flags Burned at Tunisia embassy…

    New Clashes in Cairo…

    Consulate in Berlin evacuated…

    Iraqi militia threatens U.S. interests…

    ‘The Most Serious Challenge to Obama’… 

    WIKILEAKS blames US stance on Assange for embassy attack…

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    This isn’t shouting fire in a theater.  This video, offensive or not, is commentary on religion.  That’s exactly what free speech is for.  Anyone calling for restrictions on speech is un-American.

    • MrNutso

      I would hardly call it commentary.

  • J__o__h__n

    I knew some dunce would offer the yelling fire analogy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Patrick-Dwyer-Jr/100002088204784 James Patrick Dwyer Jr.

    Romney said something concerning our “values”. Values are what society holds; what churches hold is theology and belief.” quoting Kevin  Phillips from his book “American Theocracy”. If you haven’t read this book, please do, it is well worth reading.
    A lot of people actually think that that theology and beliefs are our values, not so, not so at all.
    Politics+religion, religion+politics, a toxic combination, always has been.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I thought he meant the “value” of free speech, which is a constitutional right, and it seems to me our “values” actually are far more tilted toward respect towards others, versus insulting them the best you can afford to.

  • Potter

    Sticks and stones….. 

    This is not shouting fire in a crowded theater.  How do you control this- repression? Bottom line- People have to learn how to control their emotions. 

  • Call_Me_Missouri

    The guest asked what we should do about individual nut jobs inciting riots in foreign countries and I have an answer that I think might work…

    Paid Snipers.

    • Ray in VT

      I wouldn’t even joke about that sort of thing.

      • Call_Me_Missouri

        Thank you for getting that I was joking.

  • jo_depaolo

    i agree that the people who made and encouraged this movie are crazy, and they sadly represent the worst of the US (and west in general), but at least they are not storming the egyptian embassy, or killing lybia’s ambassador. 

    • MrNutso

      But perhaps the motive of making the movie was to get people to riot in Egypt.  Since the movie came from the U.S., the logical target was our embassy.  Then hopefully (from the movie makers perspective), the world would turn on the Egyptian Government (elected whether you like it or not).

      • jo_depaolo

        but then how far do we go down that rabbit hole? should we then say that egyptian coptic christians whose friends and relatives are suffering in egypt had justifiable motives to encourage this movie? i think this is a dangerous path. would it be right for me to punch anyone who ever provoked me? there is no excuse for this violence.

  • Potter

    Mitt Romney is disgraceful….by now the Republicans should have NO reputation at all on their claim to being strong on foreign policy.

  • Potter

    Mitt Romney is disgraceful….by now the Republicans should have NO reputation at all on their claim to being strong on foreign policy.

    • Gregg Smith

      His press conference yesterday was awesomely Presidential. Obama didn’t even take a question. 

      • jimino

        I didn’t’ see it.  What did Romney say he would have done to prevent this? 

        Since Mitt’s on record as claiming our real threat is Russia, did he connect that country to this attack?

        Or are you saying he has good “presidential” hair?

      • Potter

        Romney specializes on LOOKING awesomely presidential. He really shot himself by being too anxious to get a point here when he did not have the facts.. and then he stuck by what he said… very revealing about Romney’s pure ambition as opposed to really caring about this country in a time of crises and respecting the difficulties of the job 

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           The ‘facts’ didn’t change the value of Romney’s statement.  In fact, the WH echoed Romney’s sentiment and disavowed the same embassy statement — just like Romney.

          • OMA_OPINES

            Stated well by the last caller, “Romney is a BUFFOON”. Obviously he will say and do ANYTHING to rile up his stupid base and knows NOTHING about foreign policy other than how to stash his money where it can just make more.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Another fair and balanced show.

     

  • TribalGuitars

    I just have to say that I’m really enjoying Mr Dickey’s being so plain-spoken.  I like objective reporting, or I wouldn’t be an NPR addict, but sometimes reporters start acting more like politicians and don’t cut to the chase. I don’t think I’ve heard any other media person come out and flatly say that freedom of speech is great, but a bigot trying to poke a finger in the eye of any group isn’t responsible speech.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1049952232 Dexter Van Zile

    The ultimate responsibility for the violence against the embassies in Libya, Egypt and now Yemen lies with the rioters themselves. Islamists have been making hugely offensive statements for years about Jews and Christians and there have been no riots.

  • Yar

    “The whole world is a crowded theater.”  
    Brilliant.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Exactly so, caller.  Free speech is a fundamental right.

    • John_in_Amherst

       Free speech does not equal freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech is not free – it must be fought for and guarded vigilantly, and comes with the additional price tag of responsibility.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         But the filmmaker here is not responsible for the killings.

        • John_in_Amherst

          If someone yells fire in a theater and people are killed in the ensuing stampede, the case could be made that the person IS responsible for the deaths..

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             That’s a cliche’.  This wasn’t yelling fire.  It’s a commentary on religion.  If free speech doesn’t protect that, what does it protect?

          • John_in_Amherst

             Kindly see my post below.  The Youtube video may have been an exercise of free speech, but it is also an inflammatory piece of crap that every Christian should protest vigorously, not defend.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Protest?  Yes.  Call for a ban?  No.

          • John_in_Amherst

            we agree. and do see my post (at around 10:03)

            - John

            Subject: [on-point] Re: U.S. Ambassador Killed In Libya

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1049952232 Dexter Van Zile

    Tom, it HAS been turned around. Anti-Christian and Jewish rhetoric has been flowing out of Muslim majority countries for years. And there have been no riots in the West. Your response is hugely irresponsible.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1049952232 Dexter Van Zile

    Tom, have you ever looked at the statements coming out of MENA regarding Jews and Christians?

  • Ellen Dibble

    Values is not rights.  Illegal is not the same as dangerous.  Constitutional rights to be provocative — we have to learn that in the Muslim world, some things we as a society have to stand up and say, “We don’t do that here.”  We aren’t bullies.  Something like that.  Muslims should take the same attitude, I suppose.  I’d like to know what the imams are saying at prayers today, actually.  

  • John_in_Amherst

    The Muslim world has implored the West to refrain from judging them for the actions of Bin Laden and his ilk.  Yet when a crank emerges to burn a Koran or post a you tube video that is insulting to Islam, vast mobs “spontaneously” (?) render judgement on the entire industrialized world.  The incendiary actions of a few in the West are met with hyperbolic insane responses from masses of Muslims.  This does great harm to the Islamic world, and the majority of Muslims MUST rise up and speak out on this if they seek to be taken at their word that Islam does not equal extremism.

    That said, This event stinks to high heaven of political manipulation.  The perp of the hack video is certainly working under a pseudonym, and his intent, beyond causing trouble, is far from clear.  Our right to free speech comes with a responsibility to use it wisely, and our Judo-Christian heritage – let alone our sense of fundamental human decency – commands us to treat others with respect, even if they do not share our beliefs.  Furthermore, a careful reading of the clumsy embassy statement reveals no apology for America, as claimed by the GOP.  It would seem that Romney and his inner circle is beyond any sense of shame.  In the Romney campaign’s willingness to pounce, the defense of “free speech” without any assertion that free speech should also be responsible speech, and the ongoing distortions and worse from the Romney campaign (this being only the most recent example), make it quite clear this is not about defending “American values” but about instigation and gaining a political edge regardless of costs to American interests internationally or the political process – and truth – at home.  A campaign that is based on a debate of how best to run our country has slipped from our grasp, swept away by PAC money and strategists who value winning above all else.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    There is no equal responsibility here.  The filmmaker didn’t commit murder.  Those who hate the video are free to make their own.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

       not 50 50 but certainly he knew what the possible outcome could be.  He is a vile human being.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         The responsibility for the killings lies solely with the killers.  Killing as an act of film criticism is evil.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

           Simplistic and nonsensical mindset.  I agree that in a perfect everyone would sit and converse reasonably about things that offend them.  One of the few things that you and I would probably agree upon is that we do not live in a perfect world.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Are you suggesting that there is a moral equivalence between making a film and killing people?  Are you suggesting that the two acts are even in the same category?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

             No.  Moral equivalence and categorical classification are not necessary.  I am simply stating that you, I and the filmmakers could all foresee this outcome. 

            I did not make the video and post it on Youtube.  I have no responsibility. 

            You did no make the video and post it on Youtube.  You have no responsibility.

            The filmmakers did make the video and they did post it on Youtube.  The do have some responsibility.

  • J__o__h__n

    How do you find a journalist who doesn’t value the first amendment?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

    Free speech is a fundamental right but it also has it’s cost.  Any thinking individual who could not foresee the outcome of this “free speech” is not using any common sense.  You have the right to kick a hornet’s nest, but when you shoot a hornet’s nest with a slingshot as your neighbor approaches it, you have to accept responsibility for the result

    • J__o__h__n

      You don’t have a right to behave negligently or recklessly.  The right for free speech is only limited when there is an incitement for immediate violence.  Where do we draw the line at what offends people?  Anti Muslim movies?  Book of Mormon musical?  God hates fags signs?  Huck Finn?  Harry Potter?  The Satanic Verses?  Women not sufficiently covered in the eyes of some men?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

         Who is talking about free speech, clearly the people spoke.  The government did not stop them.   The message was sent and the results have come in.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       The filmmaker didn’t shoot a hornet’s nest.  However distasteful you find the film, it was made as a commentary on a religion.  That’s exactly what the principle of free speech has to protect.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

         Again, the speech was made so it was not censored, but I would say that “free” is a little misleading.  There was a cost in blood of innocents but it the speaker was free to make it.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           The responsibility for the killing lies solely with the killers.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

             Where have I heard this before….just keep repeating it and it will eventually be true.

            Words Like solely, only, One God; they all tend to polarize.  Polarization tends to incite violence.  This may not be the favorable outcome but one has to follow a pretty narrow path to avoid the obvious historic pattern that has repeated itself over and over and over……

  • John_in_Amherst

    rights are coupled with responsibility to use them wisely. Rights are forfeited if they are abused, or society degenerates into anarchy

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VCZ6YOEX4P7YG2MEYBW43IZC6U Tom

    As long as there is religion dumbing down our species, ANY religion at all, we are destined to have more insanity like this. It’s just a natural and inevitable outgrowth of religion: Bigotry and Hatred. 

  • J__o__h__n

    Proposing censorship and then claiming that he is countering offensive speech with more speech is disingenuous. 

  • Ellen Dibble

    Next time one is selective about the four-letter words you don’t elect to use to describe very common acts, think about whether Americans have their own sensitivities…  Values?  Swear away.

  • Jasoturner

    What this incident shows is the idiocy of religious belief.   That people would murder each other because of a video about their prophet epitomizes everything that is ignorant and base in mankind.

    Okay, that said, inflaming the passions of these deluded souls is a bad idea at best, and cruel – perhaps evil – at worst.

    To talk about this as if it were a cultural conflict is wrong.  This is a fundamental religious conflict.

    • Gregg Smith

      It wasn’t about the video. It was the first anniversary of 9/11 under the new factions of power. They are not happy that Obama is so proud of killing Bin Laden. This is the Middle East spiraling out of control. 

  • http://twitter.com/djFiG FiG

    Two forces are in play here: fanatical religion and the Internet.  To avoid these situations in the future, one of these will have to go.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/7T4DWPW2GLEZBJG7Y46W7NHKUQ Bill

    We need to be cognitive that not all people subscribe to our terms of freedom of speech in the same manner we do.
    What comes to mind is our double standard in making the freedom of speech work. 
    I know there are many people are arrested under inciting violence while all they did is speaking their mind. That is not called freedom of speech. 
    Wouldn’t making such a film or inflaming a whole world of 1.6 billion people would be considered inciting violence?

    I rest my case.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Worse, apparently this was intended to inflame violence. CBS ran an interview with one of the film’s producers, and he said he wasn’t sorry, not about the film, nor its results.  The panelists laid out the idea that people would want to spark violence like this in order to discredit Islam with its own reaction to intentional provocation.  
         I see a huge difference between unintentionally going too far — say using curses at a drunken party at a beach when children are trying to fall asleep within easy range, picking up that vocabulary for all time — and saying, this is going to offend you right to the bone; listen up.  (As Tom Ashbrook said, if Muslims were posting videos about Jesus doing these same things, we “wouldn’t appreciate it” either.  (Not to get into the debate of who exactly Mohammed was, because for one thing he lived in a radically different time and place than we are in now, and even in my own religion, which I know somewhat better, there are perpetual debates within and among the faithful about meaning and even facts.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/jakedimare Jake DiMare

    Is this a speech problem? Or a religion problem? Because I just see more death, violence, and hatred based in religious nonsense. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Steve from VT claims Romney should be disqualified for his statement so he would have time to mourn the death of the ambassador.

    By your logic, Obama should be disqualified because he politicized the death of 9 service members on a single day in 2008 by using that event to attack both McCain and Bush.

    I guess in Steve from VT world we’ll have to vote for Jill Stein.
     

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

    These nations have suffered repression from their governments for so long that they equate government with information.  Terry Jones’ message becomes the US message.

    Nor do they have the money and resources to show up at the doors of the hate speakers.  If they did, perhaps there would be less hate speech because the speakers would have to suffer the consequences.

  • Peter Duveen

    One cannot help but recall, when viewing photos of the ambassador’s demise, similar videos of Col. Muammar Qaddafi about a year ago. The US and NATO destroyed one of the most prosperous nations on the African continent using transparently ingenuous memes such as that Qaddafi, in attempting to maintain sovereignty and security in the country he led, was “killing his own people” etc. One guesses that there must be a kernel of truth to the expression, “What comes around, goes around.” If the US continues as an aggressor nation, it can expect to encounter similarly violent events, and a precipitious decline in its fortunes.

    • Ray in VT

      Are you seriously defending Qaddafi?

      • Peter Duveen

        I stated facts. I don’t believe the United States can afford to trash nations that don’t pose an immediate and imminent threat to its security. However bad some may consider Qaddafi, if a force more pernicious overthrows him, is the nation better off or worse off? Even Richard Haass, Council on Foreign Relations president, said the NATO intervetion was for [geo] political, not humanitarian, purposes.  This was quite evident, except to those whose head is buried deep in the sand.

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       Wow. I guess I must have been watching a different version of reality. Thanks for the insight.

      • Peter Duveen

        You are welcome, BHA.

  • neurohazard

    To borrow from James Madison… I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending the money of their constituents to install tyrants in the Mideast to steal their oil or invade nations that posed no threat to us.

    In this process, we, and this includes Democrats, have done despicable things in the region for which we’ve not atoned.

  • Mouse_2012

    This last guy is full of crap since the U.S. still “Supports Dictators”

    • Mouse_2012

      How many times did he say Terror?

  • Stephen706

    Is this another Obama love fest hour? This is not a random act. This is the next chapter of Fundamentalist anti-US Islamic attacks… 

    • MrNutso

      Where do you see an Obama love fest?

      • BHA_in_Vermont

         Apparently being critical of Romney’s reaction is, by default, an Obama “lovefest”.

    • neurohazard

      It takes two to Tango and if Bin Laden was determined to start a War Of Civilizations, then he fortunate to have Bush to react to 911 as stupidly as he did.

      • carnus72

        If you still think some guy in a cave with CIA ties (like oswald) is soley resposible for 9/11 then you’ll believ anything.  Bush is the perp and nothing was fortunate about the circumstance; especially florida in the 2000 election. NOt even one year before.  If Gore had been elected; 9/11 would be abroted by CIA darker forces

  • Mouse_2012

    BHA I responded back to you below.

    It was reported on the bbc hourly news that the people who attacked the embassy are part of the TNC government and have some power in it and it effected the hour + response time, at first the Libyan guests admitted this and than latter when it sounded to bad for PR it’s been omitted ever since.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

    We can hate the people who would kill over a video.  We can stand as one and say that it is a savage mindset, but that does not end that mindset nor shield the people on the front line.  This is about accepting the responsibility for your actions.

    The proximate cause of the violence against the embassies is the video.  It should have been and was a foreseeable event so the price of making the video is accepting your portion of responsibility.

    • J__o__h__n

      Were the people killed as a result of the publishing of the Satanic Verses the fault of Salman Rushdie?  Of course not.  The murderers are responsible.  Whether a work of art or a bigoted piece of crap, all speech must be protected or it is a worthless freedom.  Popular speech doesn’t need protection. 

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

         Satanic Verses was published.  Free speech was upheld. 

        Satanic Verses was not published solely to insult a religion. 

        Salmon Rushdie does not have a history of inciting racial and religious  hatred. 

        Keep trying, your getting better.

        • J__o__h__n

          It isn’t published in many countries like India as they are afraid of offending people or being targeted by thugs. 
           
          It wasn’t published at all to insult religion.  Even if it were, it should still be allowed.
           
          You used forseeability as the standard not if someone has a history of inciting hatred.  Should Rushdie have known the violent response he book would receive? 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

             A work of art is not the same a as work of hate. 

            You can choose to live on another planet in which every one shares your values and ethics.  You will have founded the most virtuous and short-lived civilization in history.

            I choose to remain on this planet and accept that not all people have the same enlightened, educated values that I do.

            I will accept that my decisions on what I say and the way in which I choose to portray my opinions may have consequences.  

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

             But now  I have to go do some work.  I has been nice talking to you. 

            Please don’t get to offended by my comments.  I tend to get passionate.

          • jimino

            Actually, a work of art and a work of hate and misinformation are entitled to the same protection under our federal first amendment. 

            If they weren’t there would be a lot fewer super pac funded political commercials.

             

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

             Uggh I have to do other stuff.  Again, it is  protected.  I is on Youtube.  The thought police have not shown up at the filmmakers’ doors and arrested them. 

            It is about the blood on the hands of the filmmakers.  How much blood can be debated, but they still have blood on their hands.

  • walnut28

    OBL STATED CLEARLY his goal…”to bring down the economy of the West.”  As explained in the book “Growing up Bin Laden,” he believed he and his A.Q. gang brought down Russia by luring them into a prolonged war in Afghanistan.  He then masterminded 9/11 and we took the bait. The resulting two wars have taken nearly as much of a toll on the US Economy as the Banking/Wall Street crisis.  Regarding the makers and “spreaders” of the video (Rev. Terry Jones among them, already responsible for American deaths abroad) are NOT unlike the WikiLeaks founder…who is wanted by the U.S. for treason.  They knew exactly what they were doing — because they already did it before.  And I’m guessing Al Qaeda was waiting for anything from Terry Jones & Company and use it for their purpose — to lure us into war, and further destabilize our economy.  Is this “Free Speech” or an accessory to hate crimes?  Romney’s remarks were very ill timed, and reflected a knee jerk reaction, not “United” as in the “United States.”  He could have waited to disagree w/ stuff after he learns the facts.  Using such a tragedy for political gains was, IMHO, not wise, appropriate nor presidential.

  • neurohazard

    At times I feel religion is just another form of human irrationality.  
    If some religions are more tolerant than others, it’s just an accident because the impluse to claim God is on MY side, not yours, is inherent in most religion.  

    • carnus72

      Its called exclusivism and it is ruining our planet.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/QMDZ3LH5U2B4GAT7J2HS4TCP6E Jim

    It is totally SHAMEFUL for ROmney to politicize this tragedy. SHAME ON YOU Romney for doing anything to get elected.

    • StilllHere

      It’s not about being elected, it’s about calling the administration out for failed policies which have left the Middle East in chaos and Americans dead while the media and the administration remain silent.

      • jimino

        What policies are you talking about?  

  • Ellen Dibble

    The commenter who said if those offended in the Middle East had the means to go after the perpetrator, instead of identifying the perpetrator with the embassy at hand, or Americans in general, then they would go right to the door of the perpetrator with their protest — interesting idea.  I’m not sure they have the coordination or years of practice in debate (religious and political debate no less) that would allow them to take on Bacile and his hundred backers in a productive way.  But that would be interesting to see.  Right now, there’s a proxy debate between certain protesters and certain people who apparently tried to incite their protests.  I’d go to Hollywood and say, If you try that again, please consider X, Y, and  Z.   If the Hollywood offender/s aren’t debating rationally, well, bring on Aristotle and Plato, and the Islamic and Jewish theologians.  Bring it on.  Should we or should we not revere traditions that are profoundly meaningful, for whatever reason, to billions of people?  

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

       Nice perspective.  We have the ability to vent online.  The protestors tend to vent on the street.  Time and time again (here in America, after every world championship) when people take to the streets and gather over a common cause, it gets out of hand.  Through a little gasoline (or religion) on it and it can get pretty ugly.

      Just like a truck driver at the wrong intersection in LA or A black man walking down the wrong dirt road in Texas, our embassies may find themselves in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time.

      • J__o__h__n

        So we should ban sports too? 

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/3FFA52GIKD5H4ZYYWQHVMONADE Paul

           Yep that’s exactly what I’m saying.  You really get me.

  • Gregg Smith

    I wonder if President Obama would ever criticize Muslims for clinging to their guns (RPG’s) and religion?

    • J__o__h__n

      I was just thinking about that and I think it applies to many people who lack educational and economic opportunitues. 

    • jimino

      Cute. So you think criticizing people for doing so is justified?

      • Gregg Smith

        I think if he is going to criticize Conservatives who are a threat to no one then he should criticize actual murderous religious zealots too.

        • jimino

          The fact that you believe he has not criticized those who did this is indicative of the bubble in which you apparently dwell.

          • Gregg Smith

            Did he criticize them clinging to their guns and religion? I missed it in my bubble. 

          • StilllHere

            Must have said it at a $150K/plate fundraiser you didn’t get the invite to.

          • jimino

            He called them savage killers whose behavior should be detested by all people, which apparently are terms of endearment in your world.

          • Gregg Smith

            No mention of religion? Why?

        • carnus72

          They are the murderous zelots.  Youre just fooled by your own eyelids.

          • Gregg Smith

            Perfect. Thank you.

        • carnus72

          youre the biggest threat to freedom in the world and should be eliminated, philosophically.

    • carnus72

      Ask a drone how bloddy its hands are. 

      • StilllHere

        How bloody are your hands, drone?

  • jimino

    These types of occurrences will regrettably happen given the circumstances in today’s troubled world, and there is little that can be done to prevent them from occurring.

    The only question is whether we will cut-and-run like Reagan did in Lebanon after hundreds were killed there or give a medal to those responsible like the “W”ar president did after thousands were killed on American soil. 

     

  • TomK_in_Boston

    I have two comments:

    1. Romney has disgraced himself. What an unpatriotic response. W was responsible for 9/11 with his negligence, but in those dark days I can’t imagine going after him instead of coming together as Americans. If you didn’t think being a financial con man was disqualification for POTUS, this sure ought to do it.

    2. I’ve been amazed at the rush to support the groups overthrowing the gvts in the ME. We have no idea who they are. It reminds me a little of overthrowing Saddam without paying attention to how we were creating an ally of Iran.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      1. Pious baloney

        2. Sounds like you are critical of Obama’s support of the so called Arab spring without understanding the implications.  Good for you. It is certainly worthy of honest debate.

      • carnus72

        Sounds like youve been trained to spend all day blogging and pirating free intercourse on the internet by AFP.  Disingenuious is not the word for rats like you.

    • William

       Nobody could top Senator Reid’s unpatriotic remarks. “This war is lost”.

      • carnus72

        being realistic and pragmatic is somehow unpatriotic.

        • William

           Putting politics before country shows the true loyalty of a person during difficult times.

  • neurohazard

    After watching some segments of the “film” in question… the cheapest piece of video crap I’ve ever seen, it’s not “free speech” in any responsible or academic sense. Its vicious intent to inflame is apparent. That doesn’t excuse those responsible for violence or murder. But then those who produced the “film” knew how low information religious fanatics would react… that they would not distinguish between those who produced the “film” in a free nation, and that nation itself.

    • Potter

      what about those who play it and play it and play it to vulnerable audiences?

      • neurohazard

        Despite of what we like to believe even about ourselves, irrationality seems to be an inherent part of the human condition. Some cultures are better at compartmentalizing it than others. Even the highly educated often subscribe to irrational ideas in some part of their lives.

         
        Irrationality is a choice to shut down critical thinking and place one’s mind on auto-pilot. When we poke irrational people with a stick, we better be prepared for a reaction. Just look how stupidly Bush reacted to 911. It takes two to Tango, and if Bin Laden was trying to start a War Of Civilizations, he could not have found a better dancing partner.

        • Potter

          In this case I think that vulnerability ( to irrationality) might have been used. I often think that one party in particular in this country also uses it. Good point.

      • Gregg Smith

        Nobody cares about the stupid movie. It was all about 9/11.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    No mention today that Obama has skipped half of his intelligence briefings.

    No mention that Obama decides to go to Las Vegas for a previously scheduled fund raiser instead of staying in DC during a crisis.

    No questions that there was no marine detail in Libya on the anniversary of  9/11?

    Instead, intense, one sided  focus on Romney’s comment. 

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Also, no mention that Obama has no time to meet with the Prime Minister of Israel but he does have time to tape Letterman’s show.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1550427523 Akilez Stamatelaky

        how did you know this?

      • carnus72

        Isrealis are tresspassing against contracts they themselves have designed and signed.  It is Netahnyahu that is in the wrong.  Our president should be dictating to him not the other way a round.  Isreal exists for the US not the otherway around.  Get a grip on your imaginations; god is not real. 

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Egypt is violating the treaty signed by Sadat and Begin.

          • carnus72

            Your Americans for prosperity traingin and talking points are garbage and you know it.  Get off the soap box and wipe your ass fool

      • StilllHere

        Not Letterman, such hard-hitting questions, a true journalist!  What was Kelly busy?  Ricky doing a makeover show?  Mourie paternity tests?

        • J__o__h__n

          Rush is doing birth certificates. 

  • Gregg Smith

    President Obama has not attended nearly half of his intelligence briefings since he was sworn in. One day after this tragedy Obama skipped another and headed to Vegas for a fundraiser. 

    They have the briefings without him but they are talking to an empty chair. Clint could not have been more apt. It’s a disgrace.

    • neurohazard

      Yup, now in 21st Century one MUST be in the same room as others to get critical information. Bush was in the room when he was handed that report Bin Laden Determined To Strike In America. Did his being there stop the 911 attacks?

      BTW, the coodination between your and W’s posting identical content makes me suspect the Right just vomited some new talking points to counter the recent stories that Bush was getting warnings about Bin Ladin MONTHS before 911.  

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1550427523 Akilez Stamatelaky

      Tell me what do you want Obama to do? read a children’s book up side down.

    • carnus72

      he may have realized its all bull**** in order to “convince ” him to kill innocents abroad for the profit of a few.  The more they continue to threaten his life the more he stands for the rights of every individula.  The mark of a true hero.

      • StilllHere

        He’s killed more innocents than any of the other Peace Prize recipients put together!

        • carnus72

          and youre still not happy with him?  seems like that would be enough for your support.  I guess he hasnt kiloled enough for you Americans for prosperity folks.

          • StilllHere

            He’s killing for political gain.

    • JGC

      I read somewhere that these in-person intelligence briefings originally gained importance during the GWBush admin because GWB didn’t like the process of reading and digesting and writing memos. Just not his way. He preferred to get an in-person, eye-to-eye accounting from his advisors, and then I guess, act from his gut and send them out to put his decisions into action.  Obama is a writer and has no difficulty taking the written information from his staff and reflecting on it before issuing his directives.  He does not need regularly scheduled in-person intelligence briefings to address his concerns, as long as he can make informed decisions through other communication channels. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1550427523 Akilez Stamatelaky

    The Libya did not demonstrate agains the radical film. There were no demonstration on 9/11 in Libya except for a handful of terrorists who disguised their assault via demonstration but the purpose that demonstration was actually to kill everyone in the Consulate. I know the Libyan people support America because we supported them during their stuggle against a brutal dictator.
     
    God Speed Libya.

  • OnPointComments

    If Christians had rioted and murdered because of the film “Religulous” by the despicable Bill Maher, do you think President Obama’s response would have been “The United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others”? 

    • J__o__h__n

      Fortunately at this point in history, most American Christians refrain from murderous riots over books and movies.  And Religulous was against all of the fairy tales not just Christianity. 

    • DebbieCleary

      yes

    • BHA_in_Vermont

       What Debbie said :)

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       I think the WH came out and said the embassy acted stupidly.

      • OnPointComments

        The quote was from President Obama’s statement, not the embassy statement.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Convention bounce is over.

    Romney is back in the lead in today’s tracking poll.
     

    • neurohazard

      What convention bounce? In another forum you were accusing CNN of inventing one to supress GOP voter turnout.

      And WHICH POLL? You’re AGAIN refusing to provide your sources so reader can evaluate your claims for themselves.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         LOL.  You are as easy to bait as the Muslim brotherhood lemmings.  It only took 7 minutes.

        Rasmussen went from Obama +5 after the DNC to Romney +1 today.

        This is a quality LV poll but it is only one data point and is still within the MoE.  Don’t get too excited.  I’m not.

        • Mouse_2012

          rasmussen the consertive bias polling site. has a poll showing Romney is up.

          No way

        • neurohazard

          Rasmussen is noted for its right wing slant. To borrow your words: ”Classic polling to depress Democratic turnout.” ROTF

          Sad you STILL don’t know what a URL is so you can post links to your “sources”. A poll name means little if someone is reading this a week from now.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             I’ll save you some time.  Go to RCP — they have ALL the polls.

          • neurohazard

            I know about RCP but you’re still missing the point. OTHERS MIGHT NOT HAVE A CLUE WHAT SOURCE YOU’RE BABBLING ABOUT. 

            For those who who don’t:

            http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/
             
             

          • Ray in VT

            I’ve been looking at the RCP polls a lot lately, and I like some of the stuff that they do there.  I’m usually pretty suspicious of Rasmussen, as their polls almost always seem to run further right than the others.

        • BHA_in_Vermont

           NPR reported yesterday that all major polls had Obama “up”. Not “guaranteed to win up” but Romney led in none of them.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Today is  a new day.

  • carnus72

    Most american christians commited genocide in the middle east for the past decade.

      It will be Romney who bounces through history; along apon his behind, whether in an office or otherwise.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Uh oh, one of the reporters caught on the open mic collaborating on gotcha questions and creating a anti-Romney narrative was identified as a NPR reporter.

    • Gregg Smith

      Who woulda’ thunk? I referenced that earlier but had no idea it was taxpayer funded propaganda from NPR.

      • carnus72

        go back to nazi school (AFP) is subzidized by the government in the form of additonal profits of private corp. dsigned and administered by the US congress.  YOu do not represent the majority, in fact you represent the extremist elements in our country and will pay the price for it. 

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Censorship is a tool of the left.

          • carnus72

            misinformation is the canon of the right

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Mmmm.  I think misinformation is equal opportunity mischief.

          • carnus72

            you would.

          • J__o__h__n

            It is not.  I’ve been arguing against it all day on here.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

            Fair enough!

          • neurohazard

            Grow up W.

            Censorship is the tool of ANYONE who has power and thinks they only want SOME viewpoints heard.  

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Newsbusters identifies the CBS reporter as Jan Crawford and the NPR report as Ari Shapiro.

        • StilllHere

          Ari, Ari, Ari … what a surprise!

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Apparently he cause kerfuffle when he refused to stand for the pledge of allegiance.

          • StilllHere

            He’s not an American when operating as a journalist, he’s a paid-for-hire mercenary for the Democrats.

    • StilllHere

      Say it ain’t so!  NPR never.

    • jimino

      You mean they actually discussed asking what Romney, who until today thought Russia was our main enemy, would have done differently, or if he could even point to some prior point he had made about the topic?  How dare they!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         Did you watch the press conference?  The press embarrassed themselves.  It was almost as bad as their pathetic behavior in Poland.  Maybe it was the same set of clowns.

        • Mouse_2012

          Face it Romney a clown

          “for Gods sakes i’m running for president

    • StilllHere

      Will NPR cover this?

  • carnus72

    The American For Prosperity trained monkey wrenchers on this site are tiresome; Worried, comments and their ilk ought to use their time more wisely and effectively in the ground. 

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Uh oh, Obama stole the ‘shoot first’ line from Jimmy Carter.

    Carter accused Reagan of  a shoot first mentality in 1980.

    There is a video of composite attached with both Carter and Obama speaking.

     http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama-echoes-carter-with-shoot-first-criticism-of-romney/article/2507863#.UFIOrFGyN8G

    • carnus72

      Seriously?  So what? youre regergitating American for prosperity talking points .  Start referring to the current topic and not back to 1980 or I will pull out the libertarian agenda from the Koch brothers 1980 campaign and

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    OMG — there is a report now that the marines in Egypt are not authorized to carry live ammo by the state department.

    update: thankfully the marines in Egypt do have live ammo.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Sounds like a setup for another black hawk down tragedy.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Notice how the media gives a megaphone to anyone on the right who is will to to criticize Romney.

    Where are the Dems who are critical of Obama?  I guess there aren’t any.

    Great piece that exposes the media hypocrisy.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/cheri-jacobus/249191-media-ignore-anti-obama-dems

    • StilllHere

      So true, thanks for the link.

    • jimino

      WOW! A news story about how there’s no news about something.  Do you realize how stupid you sound?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         It is an opinion piece.  Maybe you disagree with it.  Maybe you believe media bias and hypocrisy is OK.  That is your choice but it isn’t mine.

    • carnus72

      Every democrat is ctritical of obama.  Thats the difference between us.  Your fear disables any ability to think critically in regard to fascist right wing neo con rhetoric.

      • TomK_in_Boston

        No point in responding to a ‘bot feeding tweets from redstate.org etc.

        The reality is that Etchasketch’s unprecedented, unpatriotic attempt to exploit this tragedy is a disgrace and has got in the way of us responding properly as Americans. It as if we were out screaming for W to resign after 9/11. Etchasketch should withdraw now.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           When you use ‘etchasketch’ ‘willard’ or groupon I never read your post.  Automatic spam filter.

          • TomK_in_Boston

            OK, keep those talkin’ points coming.

            Do you have a job?

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             I know you’ll be losing sleep now that you know I don’t read half of your posts.

        • Mouse_2012

          If the polls go up for him it worked and will do so in the future, if the polls go down for Romney others will think twice.

    • http://twitter.com/StygianPhilter Stygian Philter

      If you can snap out of that right-wing fever, you’d see there’s plenty the left criticizes Obama over. (Ex: http://www.salon.com/2010/09/25/secrecy_7/). You can find many other examples is you just look!
      That Hill piece is coloring with crayons to journalism.

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         2010?

        What have you done for me lately?

  • curtismagee

    Bush’s kharma is our’s.

  • curtismagee

    Bush’s kharma is our’s.

    • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

      Oh come on, that’s a stupid way to look at it. We’ve seen abhorrent behavior for muslim citizens in the middle east for a long time now. You can’t blame everything on Bush. Bush didn’t force anyone to murder innocent people over an amateur video.

      He did a LOT of other crap – but responsibility, FULL responsibility, for this fiasco lies in the hands of the rioters.

      • carnus72

        Thats because you “believe” that there is seperation and ultimate difference between you and fellow human beings.  The exclusivism that you construct is your ability to discern “right” from wrong”, responsible and irresponsible.  when ultimately this is just as much an illusiion as your god”

        • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

          There is a separation between peoples - experientially,  religiously, financially … takes work to bridge all that. Time and time again we see unreal brutality from middle eastern populations over some paper or book or film. They don’t go and peacefully protest – they murder, torture, threaten, and pillage. That shows a complete unwillingness to have any real dialog over the cultural divide. So don’t talk to me about exclusivism. That behavior is universally considered abhorrent.

          As for the right / wrong part – well that one’s pretty cut and dry. It was a YouTube video. They killed people over it. That YouTube video didn’t put molotov cocktails or knives in their hands. They did that all on their own. They looked innocent people in the face and murdered them, even though those people had zero association. You can’t muck up those waters with pseudo-philosophical mumbo jumbo.

          • carnus72

            seperate but not different.  talk about mumbo jumbo.  people die, unfortunately youre already dead.

          • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

            Bro – different: not the same as each other. We are not the same. We’re all humans – but we’re different … genetically, physiologically, geographically. Yeah, people die – and when they die meaninglessly and purposelessly there should be an outcry against it. What we see in the middle east is a call for more bloodshed – and we see it tacitly supported by the leadership. Now that, my friend is just plain wrong – no if’s, and’s, or but’s about it.

          • carnus72

            Oh, ok then youre not my “BRO” and then you cannot prescribe to me what I should think or beleive or do as a response to any occasion event or incedent. I would imagine youd say blood is the cost of freedom? some people are dead? so what? As far as Im concerned after the civil war your blood lines and gene pools should have been cleansed from north america. That is my outrage, that you bible toting garbage bags want to dictate my opinons? this is america, I am an individual and youre a tyrannical mouthpeice o a fascist right wing NAZI orginization called American for Prosperity. I am not afraid of you in fact I will tell you that my prefreed response to your inane and accute prosecutions to be outside of the realm of this board loser.

          • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

            Wow you are broken. What part of “killing people because someone thousands of miles away made a video” do you not understand? I honestly don’t get what you’re saying at all – are you defending that ***? Cuz it kinda sounds like you are. Nice job of trying to imprint values on me – bible tottin’ huh? Funny since I’m an atheist. Oooo Nazi fascist – I guess they vote for Obama and live in blue states. Also pretty sweet how you reveal your true nature at the end – “yeah well, meet me in the school yard.”

          • StilllHere

            Must be a gradeschooler home due to the teachers’strike.

          • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

            Got anythinssubstantiveto say oryou fine with yourlittle one-line masterbatory snip?

    • StilllHere

      The last four years don’t exist… All a mirage.  Take another Ambien.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    WH has to clean up Obama gaffe today after Obama said last night that Egypt was not our ‘ally’.

    Now, was Obama shooting from the hip or acting stupidly?

    Chris Dickey please weigh in.

    And for the hazardly challenged:
    http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/13/white_house_clarifies_obama_s_statement_that_egypt_is_not_an_ally

    • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

      Well they’re not proving to be much of one so why not call a spade a spade?

      • WorriedfortheCountry

        Personally, I don’t have a problem with it but if Romney was President and he said it … watch out.  The press would call him ‘the amateur’.

        btw – I don’t have a problem with Romney’s statement either or that fact that the WH disavowed the embassy comment. No problem with either action.

        • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

          Ah I see what your saying. Well, regardless, either Romney or Obama would be right in sticking to their guns if they kicked Egypt to the curb.

          • WorriedfortheCountry

             Yup.

  • Brandstad

    Obama now says “I don’t think that we would consider them (Egypt) an ally”

    • carnus72

      something that should have been said for the past 50 years.  somebody had to finally do it.

    • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

      Good. Now he should obliterate the foreign aid we send them. A 1.5% – 2% hit to their GDP ought to get their attention. 

    • Gregg Smith

      Astonishing.

    • StilllHere

      He will say anything to get elected!

  • hennorama

    Here we are, 2 days after the demonstrations at and subsequent breach of the US Embassy in Cairo, and about a day and a half after protests and subsequent deadly attacks at the US Consulate in Benghazi, Libya.  At this point, not all the facts are known, and investigations are ongoing.

    We have lost a US Ambassador, and 3 other foreign service workers in the attack in Libya.

    This is horrible and reprehensible and indefensible.

    Unfortunately, this attack in Libya, and the protest and embassy breach in Egypt and newer attacks in Yemen and elsewhere are being used as fodder for political attacks in the US Presidential race.

    This is disgraceful.

    What is most shocking is that the Romney campaign released a statement attacking Pres. Obama, not with the benefit of having all the facts or having even a modicum of hindsight, but instead barely 2 hours after reports came out of Libya that 1 American was shot and killed in the attack.

    Keep in mind that at this point, the total number of casualties was not confirmed, some US personnel were unaccounted for, and the attack had just been stopped.  It was not clear at this point that Ambassador Stevens was dead.

    The Romney campaign issued their statement just minutes after Secretary of State Clinton had confirmed that a US official had been killed in Libya.  Again, note that the full extent of the casualties was not confirmed at this point.

    In a crass move, the Romney campaign requested that the press embargo their statement until midnight, so they wouldn’t appear to be criticizing the President on Sept. 11th.  They lifted this embargo about 10:30 PM.

    RNC chairman Preibus waited until exactly 1 minute after Sept. 11th, and tweeted his criticism at 12:01 AM on the 12th.  How restrained.

    It has become evident that Mr. Romney and his campaign believe that no tactic is off limits, and that propriety and custom be damned.

    Mr. Romney, have you no shame?  Did you learn nothing from your father?  Are there no limits to what you will do, no depths too low?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      So you are criticizing Romney for his criticizing comments that the Obama WH disavowed.

      Further, you criticize the timing because they waited until AFTER the WH disavowed the comments.

      Why is this a big deal?

      And if you are critical of Romney then you should be equally critical of the White House or else you will be a hypocrite.

      • hennorama

        No.

        My point is that Mr. Romney and his campaign made a critical statement, essentially in the heat of battle, and without complete information, for political purposes.  Even now, the facts are not all known, yet Mr. Romney saw fit to criticize.
         
        And on Sept. 11th, to boot.
         
        I have no problem whatsoever with Mr. Romney et al criticizing the President and his policies.  What I object to is the complete lack of propriety and respect for loss of life, and the complete lack of perspective in the timing of the release of their statement.  This crass use of these incidents for political purposes is beyond the pale and shameful.
         
        This would be true on any day, but this is compounded by the fact that these statements were issued on Sept. 11th.  It is clear from the fact that the Romney people embargoed their statement until after midnight on Sept. 11th that even they understood that it would be shameful to making political attacks on that date.
         
        At least Preibus used a modicum of restraint in waiting until 1 minute after midnight.

        I have no doubt that Mr. Romney was waiting for an opportunity to show his foreign policy chops, especially after the criticism over omitting any mention of Afghanistan in his acceptance speech.  No doubt he saw the Cairo embassy statement, and the protests and breach there, as a way to contrast with and criticize Pres. Obama.  No doubt his campaign was preparing to make a critical statement, but probably not until after Sept. 11th.

        Then something else happened.  The US consulate in Benghazi is attacked, and a US official is killed.  No one knows who is dead, and it is not known that Amb. Stevens is dead.

        THIS is when Romney decides it’s appropriate to release a statement.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      No, he has no shame. He’s acting just like one of those financial criminals….oh wait, he IS a financial con man.

      Etchasketch’s unpatriotic attempt to exploit this tragedy is beneath contempt and should be the end of his candidacy.

      • StilllHere

        You are not qualified to talk about any financial topics, much less patriotism.

  • neurohazard

    It’s sad that political extremists here, mostly on the far Right, seek to exploit the tragedy in Libya to advance their political agenda  just as Islamic extremists seek to exploit a religious hate film or 911 to advance their religious agenda.   

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       No, just an opportunity to highlight media bias.

      If the media hadn’t overreacted to the Romney comment I wouldn’t be here today.

      • neurohazard

        Thanks for proving my point. When it comes to politics, some are such fanatics, that they can’t resist running everything through that B&W filter.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

           Are you referring to the media when you reference fanatics?  If so, you’d be correct.

    • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

      Well you’re not exactly helping by making this a left / right issue instead of a unifying moment of Americans standing up to radical Islam.

      • carnus72

        You de construct the american population with every word you type. YOu are the divisionalist. youre the poison for unifying the american people not some brown guy in a desert somewhere.

        • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

          I really don’t get your point – so you’re defending the murdering mobs?

          • traveller2

             They aren’t “murdering mobs.” Didn’t you just listen to the program? You’re talking about a small group of armed militants who stormed a lightly guarded embassy for ends of their own. THEN you’ve got plenty of people peacefully protesting a film that offends them.

          • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

            Oh yeah? 220 people were injured in Cairo trying to get into the US embassy there. Sounds like a mob to me.

      • neurohazard

        I’m decrying FANATICS of all stripes. It just so happens its these two groups that are most relevant to what’s happening in this forum. Or are you oblivious to their flooding this forum with posts?

        • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

          Yeah but here’s how it reads:

          Righty: “so NPR is anti Romney” – diverting attention from issue

          Lefty: “my my, look at all these ignorant republicans … let me show them how ignorant they are” – diverting attention from the issue

          Proper response: “this is not about internal politics. this is about our basic freedoms and radical islam. keep internal politics to another board.”

          Left leaners constantly act like they don’t contribute to the muddle. It’s the whole “they started it” argument – yeah but you continued it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Renoir-Gaither/615760671 Renoir Gaither

         Please don’t blame the messenger for advancing a point.  The U.S. political right standard bearer, Romney, did attack Obama and attempted to turn the tragedy into a political point.  Please refrain from attacking those who point out the obvious; it does little to unify strands of the truth!

  • carnus72

    its because theyre the same squad but dont even know it.  like the best agent is one who doesnt realize he is one.

     The similarities are no accident. These instances 9/11 and the rise of the angry grassroots right is by the same designers.
      Texas republic tyrants, those smae men who perpatrated the coup de tat of Novenber 22 1963 are still up to theyre insider revolution.’  I blame Lincoln for not reducing the Teaxs and southern populations drastically after the civil war.  had we cleansed out own problems then we wouldnt be dealing with these fools now. They were criminals then and now their grandchildren are running rough shot over america and the world.  The civil war is not over.

    • Zenplatypus

      Are you trying to impersonate Cliff from “Cheers”? If so, spot on, man!

      • carnus72

        go back to church, your momma is missing you.

        • Zenplatypus

          If you don’t own a TV, what’s your excuse for being such a babbling imbecile?

          • StilllHere

            Too many Big Gulps?

          • carnus72

            whats yours?  oh, youre brainwashed to the extent that whatever comes from the mouths of others mankes no sense.  Being non Rightspeak is now babble.

          • carnus72

            Youre all big gulping somehting, likely under your bosses desk.

      • carnus72

        If I had ever owned a TV I might know your reference but since youre stuck in a subtactile world framework that has not pragmatic reference or function it really would matter if we connected intellectually or not.  The south rose again in 1963 and youre complicit.

  • mfranckowiak

    Shameful biased coverage about Romney’s comments today Tom.  Rather than ask the substantive questions that need asking about why the embassy posted what it said, that since the Obama administration has rebuked, you continued to berate Romney’s comments and even had callers join in.  Come on!  Do you think we are all leftists?  Some of your listeners are independents and demand fair coverage on both sides.  The sentiment on the Embassy website insinuated that Americans are at fault was wrong.  That is what Romney was reacting to.  Cover that Tom, not smoke and mirrors about your slobbering love affair with Obama.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/R7ZRAHGUF3ARISJLF3IGSV526A Poppy43

      Many listeners may be Independents but clearly you aren’t one of them! Any rational, independent 3rd party would agree, as did MANY Republicans yesterday, that Romney’s comments were clearly out of line and incredibly poorly timed.  It’s easy to stand on the sidelines and incite riots from thousands of miles away while American lives are in danger, but I did not see Mitt Romney, nor any of his 5 sons, volunteering to serve overseas (assuming that you discount that dangerous assignment he took proselytizing in France to avoid serving in Vietnam!). Romney’s cheap attempt to get votes from the death of an Ambassador is what was “disgraceful”!

      • WorriedfortheCountry

         So you disagree with Hillary who also disagreed with the embassy comments and ordered them taken down about the same time as Romney issued his statement?

    • StilllHere

      Tom is a complete hack at times.

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    The last time a US ambassador was killed on duty:

    1979

  • traveller2

    One question: Why was the embassy so poorly guarded? US embassies around the world are usually some of the most heavily guarded sites in any city, whether you’re in Norway or Paris or Berlin. But not in Benghazi, which has just gone through a civil war? 

    • Gregg Smith

      Our State Department would not let the military guards carry live ammunition.

      • JGC

        It is interesting that there are numerous different reasons for the weakness of the protection at our consulates.  If our State Department will not let the military guards carry live ammo (these are guards provided by the host country, correct?) it must be because we have had bad outcomes with “protection” by the host government.  (That is definitely true.)  And for sure it is true as well that Rumsfeld and Cheney had little use for the slow diplomacy of understanding and prodding a culture to a mutually advantageous end, hence the equally slow death of budget cuts to the Foreign Service. There are many reasons leading to days like this.   

    • hennorama

      The attack in Benghazi was at the US Consulate, not the Embassy.  The US Embassy in Libya is in Tripoli, the capital.

      In general, consulates are much smaller and less heavily guarded than embassies.

    • JGC

      There have been budget cuts by Congress for many years to the Foreign Service.  The money (what there is) gravitates to the military component of our foreign policy.  Guns n’ butter, right?  There is always someone to speak up on the behalf of guns (hey, even in our own country, with the NRA, right?), but not very many insistent voices for the soft skills of diplomacy. Diplomacy is not valued in particular by this Republican-led Congress.  And for sure, Mitt Romney does not value diplomacy.

  • StilllHere

    The US posted a budget deficit of $190.5bn in August, 42% higher than the same period last year.  Look out below.

    • TomK_in_Boston

      Thanks for your valuable comments on the tragedy in Libya.

      • StilllHere

        Sorry, I thought it was tragedy generally, and there’s nothing more tragic than our country’s finances under Obama, though your ignorance is a close second.

  • doug_mO

    What is important to note here is that many republicans are full of bluster and don’t have to worry about the consequence of their words or their actions.  Romney especially so.

    The president, on the other hand, has to worry about both.  The video, for example, while made by someone exercising his freedom of speech, caused a great deal of damage internationally.  Damage which the any administration would try to minimize.

    Now faced with the death of an Ambassador,  do we move head without acting rashly, or do we bluster our way through this?  One thing our country does not need are more martyrs using our actions as a rallying cry.  Based on his previous actions and comments, I believe Romney would act rashly and carelessly; making a very bad situation much worse.

    • Spencer Doidge

      I think that the perpetrator of that video, since his actions led *predictably* to violence and death, has crossed over the free speech boundary. He knew perfectly well that people would die, just as if he had loosed a rabid wild beast on a crowd of people. I think it’s time that the DOJ should go after him and test this in court. He committed a seditious act.

      • OnPointComments

        So let me get this straight:  if something *predictably* leads to violence and death at the hands of radical Islamists, the DOJ should pursue the offenders.  How ludicrous.  Are you going to have the DOJ pair up with Interpol so that the likes of Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, author Salmon Rushdie, all adulterers, all gay people, all uncovered women, all Christians and Jews, and on and on, that offend radical Islam are safely locked away?  There was only one terrorist organization yesterday, and it had nothing to do with a YouTube video.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    When tragedies like this happen, patriotic Americans stand together, put their differences aside, console the families of the victims, and plan the appropriate action.

    Thanks for revealing that you are NOT a patriotic American, Mr Romney, before too many were fooled into voting for you.

    • Gregg Smith
      • TomK_in_Boston

        …which is what patriotic Americans don’t do.

        • Zenplatypus

          If you’d bothered to look at the video linked above you’d know that it’s footage of The One — you know, that paragon of political rectitude — exploiting the deaths of servicemen in Afghanistan to score points against Bush, and by extension McCain. Similarly, there are literally scores of videos online depicting Kerry trying to use troop deaths in Iraq to his advantage during the 2004 election. I trust you were duly outraged in each case …      

      • Spencer Doidge

         If Romney ran his mouth that way from the White House, he could easily get millions of people maimed and killed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    Dickey sounds “out to sea”. The name seems to fit. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Cacimbo-Smith/1142235495 Cacimbo Smith

    Each time there is a killing in the name of Islam all media should put insulting images of Muhammad up. When Muslims learn that acts of violence lead to greater insults for their prophet they perhaps they will stop.  Currently we are rewarding murder. They kill our Ambassador and we respond by discussing reducing our freedoms. Wrong Wrong Wrong. 

    • http://twitter.com/ihrtelectronica iheartelectronica

      Agreed – you can’t reward that kind of action.

    • hennorama

      Perhaps you haven’t ever heard of the saying about two wrongs not making a right.

      Your contentions that “… we are rewarding murder … we respond by discussing reducing our freedoms” are, let me just be polite and say “evidence-challenged” and preposterous.

    • Spencer Doidge

      “…perhaps they will stop.”

      Perhaps. But we know what they *will* do a lot while we wait to find out if your experiment succeeds. They will kill people. Do you want to be there while they do that? I thought not. It’s easy to recommend things when you don’t have to experience the fallout yourself.

  • Mouse_2012

    Ever notice that the right tends to rely on openly parstian websites and “sic” journalist/reporters to decry how another media outlet is bias?

  • Spencer Doidge

    At best the Libyan authorities in Benghazi dropped the ball by not defending the US embassy during this 9/11 anniversary period. At worst they stood by and let it happen, keeping their own domestic political fences mended. Same for Cairo. Which was it? I expect that Ms. Clinton will be demanding some answers, most likely behind the scenes. These governments need to man up and keep the peace. That’s their job.

  • SK

    Freedom of speach and so on,where does one draw the line and say enough is enough,there should be some kind of moral values left in this day and age not just say anything and call it freedom of speach.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

       Like putting a cross in a bottle of urine and call it art then put it in a museum and charge the taxpayers for it?

    • hennorama

      One vital aspect of freedom of speech is that we suffer fools.  Not necessarily gladly, but we do suffer them.

      Examples abound, including the genius who made this controversial “movie.”

  • WorriedfortheCountry

    Christopher Dickey, here is your chance to weigh in on the administration’s handling of whether Egypt is considered an ally.

    You seem such an objective arbiter of foreign policy issues.
     

  • donny_t

    IMO, bottom line this is not about the movie, or Muslims or free speech. This is about hate, which I didn’t hear was addressed. There are just hateful, violent people out there who are going to use violence to achieve their ends no matter what. They are just looking for an excuse. Because don’t forget, there are also peaceful Muslims who are against the Consulate attacks.
    Hate and evil is a force. This is the case all over the middle east. It’s a legacy of bombings, wars, political upheavals, and general chaos which gives people no real sense of stability or desire to meet on middle ground to achieve peace. Makes me proud to be living in the USA where this is achieved to some degree at least.

  • Mouse_2012

    Coptic Christian leader of organization that produced anti-Muslim film spoke at Pamela Geller’s anti-mosque rally

    http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/coptic-christian-leader-of-organization-that-produced-anti-muslim-film-spoke-at-pamela-gellers-anti-mosque-rally.html 

    Geller runs a hate website if anyone was unaware of this. 

    The irony where speaking Abedlmasih said “Wake up America!” said Abdelmasih, to a crowd of flag-waving Americans. He said the mosque will be built “over my dead body.

     the crowd at the anti-mosque rally first thought that Abdelmasih and his partner were Muslim ”infiltrators trying to disrupt the event,” as a letter Abdelmasih sent to Geller and Spencer read. The letter was published on Spencer’s Jihad Watch website. 

    Here’s his letter to Geller

    “ Dear Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer,
    I am Joseph Nassralla, a Coptic Christian activist from Egypt and founder of The Way TV, a Christian Satellite TV station.
    I attended the 10,000 person protest rally against the building to the ground zero mosque which took place at ground zero in NY on Sunday June 6th. We Coptic Christians wanted to express our full support to your initiative and to this important rally.
    There was a minor incident at the rally that was blown out of proportion, when my partner, Mr. Karam El Masry, and I were distributing material with some Quran verses and we were also speaking Arabic thus we were mistaken by a few people in the huge crowd, for being Muslims infiltrators trying to disrupt the event. This misunderstanding was clarified when we explained who we were and that we are there to support the crowd against the building of the mosque. I was a little frustrated initially for being identified as a Muslim infiltrator, but was glad that the issue was resolved later. My partner, Mr. El Masry, was even able to freely speak to the crowd after our identity was clarified. He explained how Christians are tortured, killed and oppressed in Egypt at the hands of Muslims who are encouraged to persecute Christians from the pulpit of mosques by Muslim preachers.

    Most of it 

  • Ray in VT

    http://nation.foxnews.com/us-embassy-attack/2012/09/13/reports-marines-not-permitted-live-ammo

    The Pentagon says that reports that Marines at the embassy/embassies were forbidden from carrying live ammunition are not true.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Thanks for the update. This is a relief.

      • Ray in VT

        It would be worrying if it was true, given the current state of affairs.  I don’t think that I would want soldiers guarding the embassy in Great Britain to be without ammo (which is assuming that we have soldiers there, and one would think that we do), as one never knows what might happen.

        There is the old adage, though, that one should not believe anything until it has been officially denied.  One thing that irritates me about the online information environment is that people will take sources with dubious credibility, such as whatever Marine blog this story appears to have come from, and spread it around as though it is solid fact.

        • WorriedfortheCountry

          I agree with you 100%. I originally saw it linked on Drudge -> Washington Free Beacon. The article clearly stated that there was no response from the pentagon for a confirmation. It is now updated with the pentagon info.

          Sometimes even solid news sources post inaccurate info. I guess we should always be careful.

          • Gregg Smith

            Now I’m reading we had warning 48 hours prior. 

    • Gregg Smith

      That’s good news, I hope it’s true. Kudos to Fox.

  • TomK_in_Boston

    Is it too late for Etchasketch to withdraw and allow the TeaOP to switch to a viable candidate? I wonder if that has ever happened before?

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      Tom, did you say something?

  • hennorama

    Things to do when Americans are killed or wounded overseas:
     
    Restore order and account for everyone involved
    Determine who was killed and/or wounded
    Notify relatives
    Express condolences
    Express outrage
    Launch investigation
    Bring the guilty to justice
     
    Things to avoid when Americans are killed or wounded overseas:
     
    Violate universal agreement that political attacks on Sept. 11th are simply not done
    Jump the gun and issue statement before facts are clear
    Issue statement criticizing US President that contains major error in chronology
    Ignore victims’ relatives since you don’t know identity of victims
     
    Repeat

    EDIT: If you agree that the items on the “Things to avoid …” list are valid, should a candidate for President who did all of them get your support?

    • TomK_in_Boston

      He should withdraw, but he won’t. If this isn’t the end for him, we’re really screwed.

      If they really want a financial con man, Bernie Madoff isn’t doing anything, and is more trustworthy. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Renoir-Gaither/615760671 Renoir Gaither

    I heard the term “legitimate free speech” here and limits to free speech.  The prescient question should be what are the limits to freedom itself.  This country has never really had that discussion.  Americans have in round about, absurd, ways, for example, as freedom to kill people by government subsidizing of big tobacco and stifling other efforts for public health in the name of personal freedom.  This nagging term also was used to justify wars (remember Iraqi “Freedom”?).  This notion of free speech includes hate speech.  The way to curtail much of the hate speech is subject it to the judicial system like the 1.2B suit against ABC for their “pink slime” remarks.  If there is harm as a result of “free hate speech,” then such harm deserves a remedy.

    • WorriedfortheCountry

      It sounds like you are echoing the position of Christopher Dickey. He framed the issue around the shouting fire in a crowded theater limits on free speech. He then went on to state that the world is a ‘crowded theater’ so we should look at limiting damaging speech.

      Personally, I find that position very disturbing. The response to distasteful speech should always be more free speech.

      The problem with your thesis is the hate speech isn’t doing the harm. It is those doing the killing and violence that are doing the harm.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/Y3JAM2YXRF3FAXIV77JPNSOYVE j

    You know, if I can make a comment from a dis-tached, somewhat un-emotional perspective..this whole story (it’s YouTube posting roots, “who is Sam Basile?”..the Copt relationship)..it’s kindof interesting. And certainly unique. It can’t be denied, its a current media story.  But that being said..lets’ ‘Really’ focus on what was done here.  With a Rocket Propelled Granade, a United States Ambassador and others where Assasinated.  An actual Physical taking-of-life. And in all contexts, what ‘used’ to pass as an act of War.  All this double-talking by Jake Tapper I believe, saying “Yes in America we have Freedom of Speech.  The Freedom to say your opinion etc. But when they go about it in such an irresponsible way and make this movie etc…”.  Uh Jake?  They put out a 14 min. trailer.  And it was the Egyptian Sheik Kahlid who had the 2 min. excerpt broadcast on Egyptian TV Al-Nas.  Who translated it into Arabic?  I don’t know.  But still…is all of this a call to Jihad?  They stormed buildings… they took a Rocket Propelled Granade & fired & hit a serving United States Ambassador.  Due to their Insanity disguised as thin-skin, they declared an act of war disguised as a twisted act of devotion.  –  Whatever the movie does or does’nt say (I’ve seen a couple of minutes of it).. they basically enacted it true-to-form.  —  They did it –   No movie. 

  • sr77

    Christopher Dickey’s logic of comparing criticism (whether crude or elegant) of Islam and its prophet with crying ‘fire’ in a crowded theater is as baffling as his upper-class American accent (does America have an ‘upper class’?).  Crying ‘fire’ in a crowded theater is a lie, a dangerous lie because it can lead to stampedes to the exits resulting in injury and death.  There is no intelligent comparison that can be made with that to criticism of Islam, which is fertile ground for criticism on many fronts.  And even in the case of criticism of Islam that is largely or exclusively inaccurate (though I haven’t run across much of that myself), there is no more threat to anyone from such inaccuracies than from those in many everyday news reports.  The fact that certain Islamists decide to be insulted by it is their own decision.  They could, for example, just as easily ignore it.Dickey also alleges that the actual number of extreme radicals in the Islamic world is very small.  Supposedly, the rest of the Islamic world loves us.  (I’d love to see the proof of that.)  Even if that is so, the real point is that if those supposedly tiny extremist factions are able to penetrate protected American embassies, that fact must be dealt with head-on, whether it comes from incompetence of the indigenous security forces who are supposed to protect us and/or actual complicity with the radicals.  If all the love from the rest of the Islamic world can’t stop those events from occurring, it’s meaningless to raise it, as Dickey blithely does.The only worthy course of action for the U.S. is to take a firm stand and let the Islamic world know that in America freedom of speech is inviolable — meaning that people in our country can utilize that right to the max and that the ability to do so will be upheld regardless of how much effort those in the Arab world who decide to do so become as insulted as possible in order to suggest that because of their hurt sentiments the U.S. should change its fundamental way of life.

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  • msorros

    Christopher Dickey’s attempt to re-define freedom of speech to fit his narrative is a disservice to Americans, and in particular to the heroes in our armed services.  While I agree Romney made a mistake by issuing his statement, Mr. Dickey should keep his political bias out of the conversation regarding speech rights. 

  • weau

    Why aren’t the filmmakers arrested for incitement to riot? Especially the persons who purposely mailed the links to the media outlets in Egypt. That is clearly purposeful incitement to riot. And considering that recently a young man was convicted of a hate crime for posting on the web his gay roommates intimate relations, wouldn’t this qualify as a hate crime? 

    Why is this not even discussed?

    • Gregg Smith

      It wasn’t about the stupid movie.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 23, 2014
In this Thursday, Dec. 20, 2012, file photo, Chet Kanojia, founder and CEO of Aereo, Inc., shows a tablet displaying his company's technology, in New York. Aereo is one of several startups created to deliver traditional media over the Internet without licensing agreements. (AP)

The Supreme Court looks at Aereo, the little startup that could cut your cable cord and up-end TV as we’ve known it. We look at the battle. Plus: a state ban on affirmative action in college admissions is upheld. We’ll examine the implications.

Apr 23, 2014
Attendees of the 2013 Argentina International Coaching Federation meet for networking and coaching training. (ICF)

The booming business of life coaches. Everybody seems to have one these days. Therapists are feeling the pinch. We look at the life coach craze.

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Apr 22, 2014
This undated handout photo, taken in 2001, provided by the Museum of the Rockies shows a bronze cast of the Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton known as the Wankel T.rex, in front of the Museum of the Rockies at Montana State University in Bozeman, Mont. (AP)

As a new Tyrannosaurus Rex arrives at the Smithsonian, we’ll look at its home – pre-historic Montana – and the age when dinosaurs ruled the Earth.

 
Apr 22, 2014
Security forces inspect the site of a suicide attack in the town of Suwayrah, 25 miles (40 kilometers) south of Baghdad, Iraq, Monday, April 21, 2014. Suicide bombings and other attacks across Iraq killed and wounded dozens on Monday, officials said, the latest in an uptick in violence as the country counts down to crucial parliament elections later this month. (AP)

We look at Iraq now, two years after Americans boots marched out. New elections next week, and the country on the verge of all-out civil war.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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Our Week In The Web: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Space moon oceans, Gabriel García Márquez and the problems with depressing weeks in the news. Also: important / unnecessary infographics that help explain everyone’s favorite 1980′s power ballad.

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Some Tools And Tricks For College Financial Aid
Thursday, Apr 17, 2014

Some helpful links and tools for navigating FAFSA and other college financial aid tools.

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