Wisconsin’s Recall Vote Fallout

TODAY IS SATURDAY, MAY 25, 2013

June 6, 2012 at 10:00 AM

Wisconsin’s Recall Vote Fallout

Wisconsin Republican Gov. Scott Walker reacts at his victory party Tuesday, June 5, 2012, in Waukesha, Wis. Walker defeated Democratic challenger Tom Barrett in a special recall election. (AP)

With Jacki Lyden in for Tom Ashbrook.

Wisconsin’s epic recall battle over Governor Scott Walker, and its vote. We’ll look at the fallout.

The historic Wisconsin recall—one of the most bitter election contests in recent memory– is over. Governor Scott Walker has won. It’s been seen as a national referendum on public sector unions, President Obama, money in politics, jobs creation … just about everything that will determine what happens in November.

But bitter feelings aren’t going away. And jobs creation is lagging in Wisconsin, where President Obama still scores higher than Mitt Romney.

This hour, On Point: On, Wisconsin: The day after.

-Jacki Lyden

Guests

Don Walker, reporter for the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

Laura Dresser, a labor economist and associate director of the Center of Wisconsin Strategy out of the University of Wisconsin – Madison.

Rick Esenberg, professor of law at Marquette University Law School.

David Lauter, Washington, D.C. bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune.

From The Reading List

Politico “But the biggest prize for labor was Walker’s scalp, and his victory throws a wrench into their argument that they’re staging a political comeback.”

Los Angeles Times “Looking for clues about November in today’s Wisconsin recall election? Here are a couple of key numbers that Republican and Democratic party strategists have acutely in mind.”

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel “Voters will have to decide whether to support Gov. Scott Walker or to dump him from office after less than a year and a half in favor of Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, the candidate they rejected for the job in 2010. On jobs, taxes, education, health care and unions, the candidates are already marking out positions that differ sharply.”

WINSTON SMITH

Hopefully, people are beginning to realize that we can no longer allow unions to strangle and rape the American taxpayer and extort ridiculously high wages and benefits especially retirement and sick pay that are out of touch with what the average American taxpayer receives in the private sector. We don’t want to become the next Greece. Unions and their ridiculously anti-competitive and anti-productive work rules have driven a great deal of manufacturing jobs out of our country in the steel, auto, and many other industries. Unfortunately, unions are at an advantage with government jobs which do not leave due to the nature of the job (more service-oriented) and because our spineless Democratic politicians are so good at kicking the can down the road in terms of what they commit future generations to bear in the way of retirement and other commitments. The postal union, on slate to lose $17 or so billion dollars this year, is a prime example. That is why extortion and Mafia-style tactics otherwise known as “collective bargaining” must be taken away from these union pirates. There are plenty of other people who will take their jobs if they are unwilling for lower wages and more reasonable benefits.
- Alan in NH
  
  It is exactly opinions like yours that will bring this country back to the days of indentured servitude from which it emerges, with much loss of union member life, over the course of one hundred fifty years. Winston, you have no understanding of U.S. History and are merely reacting hatefully to what has been, in general, a very positive movement for untold numbers of Americans. Unions have been, though are no longer, the only counterbalance to the overweening greed and avarice of corporations. Hardly a drain on the economy, the efforts of unions have been the major factor in bringing to many people in this country what is typically called the American way of life. The only reason we still even have public service unions is that corporations haven’t yet figured out how to outsource or robotize the police force, firemen, or teachers. I’m sure they are working on it. The minimum wage will be another target – another “job killer” as the corporations have liked to call it every time it comes up. Actually, I expect to see wages comparable to ones I made starting out in the 60s…65 cents an hour plus a meal of leftovers working for a restaurant. Expect to see child labor shortly, the 16 hour day. Hey, welcome to China and other countries that employ near-slave labor. No reason to ship jobs overseas anymore…the coolies will be here. And you celebrate this Walker victory? Shame on you.
  - William
    
    So those Boston cops that were pulling in 200k via their overtime scam is the way it should be for all of us?
    - Alan in NH
      
      You are using one small example of abuse, if it is indeed as you say, to damn an entire movement whose role in general has been to raise the standard of living in these United States to a level we were once proud of but can no longer claim. And who will replace this force against corporations’ greed? Will it be the largesse of the corporations? The only reason wages in this country got to a decent level over the course of decades is due to unions. If you want to see what corporations do, look at the retirement packages their CEOs get even for failure, compared to which, the abuse of a few policemen is hardly visible. If you want to look at a major cause of budget overruns, look back to unfunded wars in recent history. And don’t blame a party or a president for this. We, the people, let it happen. And now we reap that whirlwind. But unions blamed for the financial crisis? Please. Get real. Unions are virtually nothing in this country anymore, and Citizens United, and its corporations with “personhood”, reigns.
      - William
        
        You can find thousands of examples of out right theft by public sector unions. They just don’t care.
      - jefe68
        
        Unions are 14% of the work force. From the 50′s to the 70′s they made up about 40%. There’s more theft and money being taken on the top by Wall Street and banks than and public service union.
        
        What I see is an entire nation on the take. You think by doing away with the unions the bad actors are going to go away?
      - William
        
        Why are so many cities and states going broke, San Jose, San Diego, California, Ill, Chicago because they can’t afford the salaries, pensions, etc..of public service union members?
      - Alan in NH
        
        I’d be willing to bet, though I can’t prove it, that deficits in large cities have more to do with financial concessions to developers who in turn do not pay adequate taxes at city, state or federal levels than to any incredible retirement benefits of service employees. The names of the overlords have changed, but not what they do.
      - jefe68
        
        It’s more due to the economy and in some cases due to foreclosures and job loses you have a lot of revenue going south.
      - JK in WI
        
        Because we’re coming out of a historic economic crisis. Many people are out of work, so tax revenues are down. Pair that with the ever-increasing cost of health insurance coverage, and you’ll find that what used to be a somewhat generous public employee benefit package is now “outrageous”.
      - jefe68
        
        You’re asking this guy to use rational thinking.
        
        I doubt that’s going to happen.
      - William
        
        “Somewhat generous?”
      - Don_B1
        
        The cities in California are prevented from raising property taxes by Proposition 13 and the Legislature does not provide the necessary level of aid for adequate services. The Legislature cannot raise taxes with less than two-thirds vote. The result: a school system in major decline.
      - William
        
        So excessive retirement payments does not matter?
      - Don_B1
        
        The term “excessive” isis not everyone’s.
      - Ryan_hennings
        
        Alan,
        
        Public sector unions are a form of government corruption. For example, how is it right that the teachers unions can take tax payers money and hold it in front of a politician and say, “If you promise us a raise every year and amazing benefits and retirement, we will give this to your campaign.”
        
        I don’t like unions, but I don’t care if they unionize in the private sector.
        
        There is NO place for public unions! Good for you WI!
      - JK in WI
        
        Public unions are no different than any other lobbying group.
        
        You argue that it’s because they’re taking tax payer’s money and using it to influence politicians. Well, how is that different than the oil industry using its profits (which is money spent by the tax payers.) to influence politicians?
      - Don_B1
        
        Actually, the political influence money spent by the fossil fuel industry is LESS than the yearly tax loophole amounts. That is NOT to belittle the amount of political gifts, exceeded only by the financial industry.
      - JK in WI
        
        My point is that comparing public unions and other lobbying groups is an apples to apples comparison. They may be different varieties of apple, and they may be different sizes, but they’re both basically the same.
        
        Unions and lobbying groups use their influence to benefit their members, be it compensation packages for union members, or banking regulations for the financial institutions.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        No, lobbying and corporate/union political contributions are bribery.
        
        We need to outlaw all corporate/union lobbying and political donations and let unions do what they were created for: collective bargaining with their employer, whether public or private.
    - jefe68
      
      I have an idea lets fire all the teachers police, fire, sanitation and road workers and see what happens. Lets do away with all unions. Then what Einstein.
      
      I don’t see you complaining about bankers getting millions in bonuses for failing.
      Which smart guy is also your money.
    - Still Here
      
      Every day there’s another public union fraud. Just today in Chicago a sergeant’s union official was sentenced to 12 years for stealing $1M of union dues.
      - Victor Vito
        
        Good, we caught him. Let’s put him in prison and label him a felon. This problem solved!
      - Terry Tree Tree
        
        BIGGEST Frauds are Politicians , and Company EXECUTEives, like the killers at MASSEYcre Energy, that KILLED those 29 miners, to fill their OWN pockets?
      - jimino
        
        That’s one more than was held to account for TRILLIONS fleeced from the economy by our titans of the financial industry. Doesn’t that concern or bother you at all?
    - Don_B1
      
      That those Boston cops were able to game the system does not mean that unions are inherently bad. Every human system has flaws that we work to improve. The cliché “don’t throw out the baby with the bath water” applies here.
    - Victor Vito
      
      Good thing their are no scams or corruption going on in the private sector….
  - WINSTON SMITH
    
    Unions had their place several decades ago but have now become a net drain on the economy due to their disproportional political power, especially with one particularly party. They use that power to extort more and more in the way especially of unsustainable work rules and retirement/sick benefits. When a postal worker, who gets a ridiculous number of sick days, can retire at 50 and then get a $70,000 check for unused sick days in addition to an absurdly long retirement package (collecting longer than he or she actually worked), it is no wonder that we are $15 TRILLION dollars in debt. The Democrats’ solution is to just run the printing presses longer, not to address the underlying fiscal irresponsibility that led to this disastrous and unsustainable/unaffordable situation. That is what has got to stop or we will all go down the toilet together.
    - jefe68
      
      Do you know how much they get in retirement per year?
      About 35K a year or less.
      
      The rights solution is to let people fall into poverty and homelessness.
      
      A third of Americans make make 34k a year and the number is growing.
      Americans living in poverty is growing, it’s now at about 45 million and going up.
      
      So what’s the right’s plan here, they want to add more people to the unemployment lines. Brilliant.
      - Gregg
        
        “The rights solution is to let people fall into poverty and homelessness.”
        
        Not really.
      - jefe68
        
        The out come of lower wages and the ability to bargain for a better share of the pie leads to poverty. In states with no unions, such as Alabama, Mississippi poverty is at an all time high. In states such as Massachusetts, New York, and Connecticut the earnings are higher. Interesting to note that the stats for public schools systems with unions the test scores are higher.
        All the states with non-union school systems are lagging behind.
        
        Most of the right wing commentators on this forum seem to be Libertarian or leaning that way. My impression is that people who can’t make should be left to rot on the side of the road.
      - Gregg
        
        Curtailing the influence of out of control public sector unions is a far far cry from “no unions”. I have no idea why that doesn’t register.
        
        In Wisconsin they have jobs. The public sector has still got it cushier than the private sector. What’s not to like?
      - jefe68
        
        I beg to differ.
        Were not going to come to a consensus.
        You stand for everything I loath.
      - Don_B1
        
        Public sector jobs (particularly teachers) generally REQUIRE a higher level of education than the public sector, so straight comparison of pay is comparing apples and oranges.
        
        But Wisconsin could well lose some to many of its best teachers as they move to the private sector or another state.
      - TFRX
        
        (You typed “public sector” and appeard to compare it to “public sector” in the first sentence.
        
        Seems you mean “public sector requires higher level than private sector” but correct as needed.)
      - nj_v2
        
        Another bogus dispatch from the mindlessly right-wing Bureau of Greggg’s Butt:
        
        “The public sector has still got it cushier than the private sector.”
        
        Compensation and benefits are actually pretty comparable. Professional, public jobs do better, and “lower-level” private jobs do slightly better. Not a big gap either way.
        
        http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/federal-pay-vs-private-sector-compensation/
      - Victor Vito
        
        Now THAT is biting wit combined with a razor sharp argument!
    - Victor Vito
      
      Don’t worry, corporations will take good care of us. We don’t need any collective representation.
    - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
      
      The Postal Service, a favorite target for right-wingnuts, operates in the black and is a perfect example of a self-sustaining quasi-public business.
      
      The Republican congress, which cannot tolerate such a working example any more than they can tolerate Cuba as a working example of a non-capitalist nation, required the USPS to pre-pay 75 years of retirement benefits in order to force it into bankruptcy and then privatize it (rendering it far less efficient).
  - Azra
    
    Ignorance, gullibility, and narrow-mindedness have reached epidemic proportions in America.
    
    
- MadMarkTheCodeWarrior
  
  Keep drinking that cool-aid provided to by your neofeudal lords who are laughing all the way to the bank. Divided we fall.
- Chris B
  
  How are those rat bites on your girlfriends face healing?
  - Stillin
    
    this is an unnecessary, offensive comment. please remove it.
    - Chris B
      
      Evidently you are not aware of who the literary character of Winston Smith is. If you were, you would realize that it is the use of that name is unnecessary and offensive. I suggest you research it and address your concerns to the person using it and suggest it find another.
      - Stillin
        
        I was purely replying to the comment , if it is sourced from the literary character of Winston Smith, it shoud have been sourced.
- Carl J. Britton, Jr.
  
  Talking about the
  overwhelming political power of American unions is about as accurate as the
  Nazis claiming that the Jews secretly ruled the world by controlling
  international banking. There are so few workers left who are represented
  by unions that they are barely able to protect their own members, never mind
  have the kind of influence on non-union shops that they used to. And it
  is no coincidence that the vast and ever expanding income inequality in this
  country has grown in reverse proportion to the decline of the trade union
  movement.
  
  For all the decades of
  my life, it has been a well known trade-off that when someone went to work in
  the public sector, they accepted reduced wages — compared to comparable
  positions in the private sector — in exchange for better benefits than those
  of the private sector. Study after study has confirmed that — on the
  whole (and despite anecdotal instances to the contrary) — public sector
  workers have always been less well compensated than comparable private sector
  workers. (It must also be noted that most public sector workers are not
  eligible to participate in Social Security, so their pensions are all those
  workers have to finance their retirements — which makes “out-sized”
  public sector pensions look less so.)
  
  One reason for this, of
  course, is that wages have to be paid currently, while pension benefits would
  be paid sometime in the future. And now that the day of reckoning
  has come for states and municipalities to start paying out pensions in greater
  numbers (just as Social Security and Medicare are about to face the bulge of
  Baby Boomer retirements), many of these public entities are finding themselves
  overwhelmed in large part because of their failure to adequately support their
  pension funds in the past — rather than borrowing against them or diverting money
  from them to make up for other shortfalls.
  
  So now suddenly public
  pensions are being demonized and blamed for the poor planning of the
  governments that promised them to their workers 30 years ago, and these
  employees are suddenly finding themselves bereft of the retirement funds they
  had been counting on all their working lives — when there is no time left for
  them to save any other money to replace what is taken from their pensions. A thoroughly dishonest and dishonorable
  approach to balancing budgets!
  
  Lastly, for those who
  claim that the mere existence of public sector unions somehow represents a form
  of governmental “corruption”, please explain to me the difference between a
  public sector union which has to negotiate the expenditure of taxpayer money with
  bosses who depend on the union members for votes and a private sector union
  which has to negotiate the expenditure of shareholder money with bosses who
  depend on the union members for producing and selling the goods or services from
  which the bosses’ disproportionate share of profits are derived? Sounds like two sides of the same coin to me.
- Victor Vito
  
  Doesn’t matter, unions are dying/being murdered. We will find out soon enough what life is like without them.
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  The USPS would be well into the black if the Republican congress hadn’t demanded it prepay 75 years worth of retirement benefits – a mandate that no private corporation or any public agency must meet. Their goal was to bankrupt the Postal Service so it could be privatized.
  
  If we had the kind of universal social security and public welfare program proposed by Thomas Paine, we wouldn’t need states to fund pensions.
  
  Paine proposed that the social increment of wealth be taken through an inheritance tax to be redistributed as a one-time dividend to youth upon reaching the age of 21 and as an annual dividend to the aged, the lame and the blind.
  
  His quite correct reasoning is that no wealth is possible outside of the infrastructure of society, and so all accumulated wealth owes a debt which justice demands be returned to be shared by all. This is not welfare as charity, but a return of the public portion of wealth as justice.
  
  With such a just redistribution program – returning a tithe on any private use of the commons (as is done in Alaska) – and a universal health care system not based on private profit, there would be no need for pensions or cadillac health insurance plans.
Still Here

Walker would appear to have a mandate, hopefully Democrats won’t continue to be obstructionists. Thank you Wisconsin.
- JK in WI
  
  Nearly half of the state voted AGAINST him, and because of their legislative actions, he and his party lost control of the state senate. How does that add up to a “mandate”?
- nj_v2
  
  “Mandate” Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
WINSTON SMITH

Of course the pro-union side will claim that Gov. Walker won the recall vote due to money that came from outside of Wisconsin. Of course, when left wingers provide out of state money for issues like Prop 8 in California, that fact goes unmentioned. The reason that Walker won is that people are tired of the featherbedding unions living and retiring exorbitantly on the backs of normal private sector working people who are having to work longer and retire later due to the noncompetitive situation we are in because of the parasitic unions who are destroying our country.
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  OVER 80% of Walker’s funding came from out of state?
     Walker backers spent OVER 7 TIMES as much as his opponents?
     Why wouldn’t an objective observer say that Walker won by money from out of state money?
     OBVIOUSLY, he COULD NOT have won, WITHOUT outside money?
     Those that BOUGHT Scott Walker an EXPENSIVE job, WILL demand a return on their money?
- Victor Vito
  
  It is your state and quite possibly your country now. I’m fascinated to see what you will do with it.
Gregg

I was dead wrong when I predicted On Point would not do a show on the recall if Walker won. Kudos On Point.
- Still Here
  
  We’ll see. I expect lots of suggestions that this doesn’t have national implications and general minimization of its importance.
  
  However, it suggests the momentum of 2010 has continued if not increased.
- Hidan
  
  Not the first and wouldn’t be the last.
  
  It obvious Onpoint would cover it either way.
  - Gregg
    
    It’s not so obvious to me but they deserve credit here.
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  Thanks for your admission. Some others won’t admit that they were wrong.
Gregg

Walker turned a $3.6 billion deficit into a surplus without raising taxes. Unemployment is around 6%. We have a blueprint.
- Hidan
  
  Links other than Right-wing hack sites?
  
  If one were to Google it would TNR come up or Weekly Standard?
  - Gregg
    
    Rush told me.
- TFRX
  
  Keep flinging your feces.
  
  Walker’s the guy who you’re praising for putting out the fire he started.
  
  Wisconsin wasn’t in financial crisis until the GOP got there. Funny, that keeps happening.
- Victor Vito
  
  Yeah, make teachers and librarians pay for your debts.
  - William
    
    Better them than children, elderly, disabled.
    - Victor Vito
      
      Yeah William, I’m sure they’ll be just fine in a conservative ruled Wisconsin/America.
Margbi

I think Gov. Walker and his supporters would be well advised not to gloat over their victory. He has started well by being relatively conciliatory to the loser. May this continue.
- Still Here
  
  Maybe he should take a page from Obama who when asked about being conciliatory replied, “I won” and we all know how divisive he has been since.
  - Azra
    
    If it makes you feel better, keep spreading that fallacy – and the one about the moon landing, and don’t forget to deny the Holocost.
    
    
- Gregg
  
  Gloating is indeed bad form, however, it is amazing how he has prevailed. From the fleebagers, Judge Prosser and the legislative recalls all the way to last night. The people of Wisconsin are not stupid. Walker has been good for the State.
  - Terry Tree Tree
    
    If a lot of people in Wisconsin weren’t stupid, they wouldn’t let Foreign Money buy a political job in their state, ESPECIALLY Governor!
  - Azra
    
    Amazing, indeed. However, I must disagree with you about the stupidity of voters in Wisconsin, or anywhere in America.
    
    
jefe68

One has to ask, what the Democrats in Wisconsin were thinking. Did they not go out and do some polling?
36% of union households voted for Governor Walker. 36%.

I’m not sure why one would vote against their own interest, but this takes the cake in my view.

If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders.

George Carlin
- Ryan_hennings
  
  That 36% of union households were private unions, not public unions.
  - jefe68
    
    And your point is? They are still in a union.
    They voted against there own interest.
    If these folks think that their unions are safe, they are very much mistaken.
- Theeleggedtable
  
  Did you see the clip of Walker saying he would divide and conquer the unions?
- Greyman
  
  Would Wisconsin voters, even union members, have been voting for their own interests in having an insolvent state government? Why would it be in Wisconsin’s interest to sustain or extend government debt and deficit?
  - jefe68
    
    By the way the GOP lost the state senate.
    If you’re in a union and you voted for Walker, then you voted against the idea of a union. That’s ones interest. Almost half the state voted against him, so it’s not as if he had a landslide.
    - Greyman
      
      On the other hand Walker is reported to’ve won over Barrett by a larger margin than in 2010. Also, the state Senate I understand is now out of session and will not reconvene until early next year. But you missed my actual question: what interest does any Wisconsin voter, union member or not, have in seeing a state government sustain or extend debts and deficits without end? Walker sounds from the outside to have gotten a handle on state government, something that the governor of Illinois certainly is in no position to claim.
      - TFRX
        
        Walker didn’t “extend debt” until he invented the crisis of having a debt in the first place.
        
        He’s giving away the disease to hawk the flimflam cure.
- Victor Vito
  
  Problem was, they didn’t find a decent candidate. I wonder what Russ Feingold is waiting for. He would have handed Walker his ass in debates.
- Azra
  
  Thank you, George Carlin. Very well said.
Stillin

According to CNN, Walker outspent Barrett, 7 to 1, it’s all about money. I can’t wait to leave the country when I retire, and yes, I have been to other countries, cheaper, less stressful than here.
- Still Here
  
  Money doesn’t vote.
  
  Anyway don’t let the door hit you, and don’t forget to send your tax payments!
  - Terry Tree Tree
    
    If money didn’t vote, HOW did Walker get to stay Governor? WHY would ANYONE that didn’t NEED Foreign Funds, use them to get a state Political Job, especially Governor?
    Foreign Money BOUGHT his job~!
  - Stillin
    
    Money pays for education so that educated people can make informed decisions. So, I disagree, money DOES vote. I believe it’s the educated who make sure they get out and vote because so many of the uneducated, and poor, have stopped believing anything they do will make a difference.
- Victor Vito
  
  Can you take me and my family with you? I’m a hell of a cook!
  - Gregg
    
    Can you filet fish?
  - Azra
    
    I like gardening, especially in that climate.
    
    
  - Stillin
    
    Absolutely. Let’s cooperate and help eachother.
- Azra
  
  . . . AND INFINITLE SMARTER.
  
  
  - Azra
    
    CORECTION: Infinitely
Ryan_Hennings

Public sector unions are a form of government corruption. For example, how is it right that the teachers unions can take tax payers money and hold it in front of a politician and say, “If you promise us a raise every year and amazing benefits, we will give this to your campaign.”

I’m not a fan of private sector unions either, because they can become abusive and a thorn in the side of business owners. But on the flip side I’m sure many owners are abusive as well.
- Alan in NH
  
  Jeez, Ryan. Look at your history. I’m sure many owners are abusive as well? The police were never called out by a union to break up a company but the reverse often happened. The individual worker had no power and no voice until unions gave him or her one. You’re not a fan of private sector unions either because they are thorns in the side of business? Like wanting something less than a 16 hour work day? Like wanting a livable wage? Like wanting decent working conditions (see Shirtwaist factory fire)? Where have you been? Were these granted because business felt generous?
  - Azra
    
    Like allowing a woman to earn as much as a man who is doing the same job.
    
    Republicans voted against women again yesterday. This time, they made no pretense about constitutionality, or any other phoney thing. Their reason was that if the law was passed, it would be unfair to BIG BUSINESS.
    
    
    
    WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
    
    
Still Here

Walker needs to be promoted to DC to address the Federal fiscal issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be
Newt

Not one mention on Morning Edition, or other mainstream media I saw this morning that Democrats took back control of the Wisconsin State Senate.

I wonder how long On Point will take to mention it. Seems kind of important to me. Checks and balances, and
all that.
- ArtyB
  
  Not really important. The legislature does not meet until January and the November elections come first. Purely a symbolic victory.
  - TFRX
    
    They recalled these R state sens successfully and are now running as incumbents.
    
    Maybe now Wisconsin will get to actually count the votes in the state house and follow the open comment laws. It’d be quite a change.
Markus

Since someone from the LA Times is on the panel, I’m interested to see if there will be an impact on California. They have a much worse problem, are largely Democratic and have a Democratic governor. The solutions I’ve hear proposed so far consist largely of accounting tricks, tax increases and a small amount of union concessions. Doesn’t seem workable for a state that already has one of the highest tax rates and is losing tax payers.

I suspect that California, unlike Wisconsin, is in or near the position where those receiving goodies from the government outnumber those who pay into the government. Hard to see how this won’t turn into a disaster.
Hidan

Congrats to Walker, it cost the Koch Bros alot on money to keep him in office and I’m sure there want nothing in return.

Congrats to the DNC for not backing the other guy as well can’t be seen to closely supporting the Unions especially when Obama is running.

“one reaps what they sow”
- Azra
  
  Might as well forget about unions, and protection of any other kind. The Elite have got the ignorant brainwashed, and the numbers of ignorant Americans is growing by leaps and bounds.
J__o__h__n

I don’t approve of recall elections unless there is misconduct.

Walker appears to have outspent the challenger (whom he had already beaten once) by a 7-1 ratio so not much of a surprise in the result and not indicative of Obama’s chances in November in Wisconsin.
- Still Here
  
  Nice, but pathetic, try.
- marryanne
  
  The democrats stopped giving long ago because they knew it was a lost cause. You should be happy they saved their money, but as a typical left winger you are just looking for excuses.
  - Victor Vito
    
    Exit polls last night showed Obama with a lead over Romney. I can’t imagine why my brain dead state would vote for Walker, then re-elect Obama, but that’s what the exit polls showed.
http://banicki.biz/ steve banicki

The political war in Wisconsin points to a bigger problem. The republicans outspent the Democrats three to one.

The Governor bought the election legally. This is not a new trend. To some extent it is how the democrats gained power with the unions pooling their members money and resources. The labor law worked in their favor.

Today, it is the wealthy buying elections as a result of the Citizens United case at the Supreme Court. In both scenarios, buying of elections corrupts our system and needs to be stopped. It will not be stopped by our politicians because they are the ones benefiting.

It is not a coincidence that the increase in the cost of elections has occurred as free markets have been weakened by oligopolies controlling more and more industries.
Read More: http://www.freeourfreemarkets.org/2012/06/buying-elections.html#more
- Still Here
  
  Name specific votes that were paid for and by whom.
  
  Cite specific data showing corporate giving as opposed to union giving in this election.
  
  The people of Wisconsin voted, not unions or corporations. The people voted in 2010 with the same result. The people shall be heard!
  - http://banicki.biz/ steve banicki
    
    Yes indeed, the people did vote. They voted in the same manner as they do when they buy a soft drink. They buy Coke or Pepsi because they see it on T.V.. You are not so naive that you don’t think advertising works.
    - Still Here
      
      Ask Meg Whitman and countless others, elections are never bought. Why be so elitest in your view of how others vote instead of respecting others’ choices different from yours?
      - TFRX
        
        That’s quite the needle-threading, being a rightie who insists that the money doesn’t matter when your side spends oodles more of it. Must be a sweet gig.
        
        Why don’t you head on over to Red State and tell them the Kochs should just cancel all their checks?
      - Still Here
        
        Boo hoo, lefties political positions have no merit and interest no one; but I’m not going to jump on anyone’s free speech. Being right is always sweet.
      - TFRX
        
        You said “money doesn’t matter” yet the only question about it is “how much more did the GOP spend?”
        
        That’s the kind of intellectual rigor you’ve displayed here.
      - Still Here
        
        Sorry I underappreciated your incredible ignorance. People give their hard-earned dollars to ideas/candidates they believe have merit.
      - Azra
        
        . . . . no matter how misguided, and uninformed they may be.
      - Still Here
        
        How else would Democrats get funded!
      - http://freeourfreemarkets.org/ steve banicki
        
        I am not elitist. Frankly, for years labor abused their power of being able to bundle the money from their members dues to influence elections. Both are wrong and contributing to the breakdown of freedoms as individuals. It is no longer one man one vote. It is one dollar, one vote.
        
        For the record I supported a Republican for President in every election since 1968 except one.
  - Victor Vito
    
    How much documentation do you require on this radio talk show comment section?
- William
  
  Are you sure about the numbers? I would imagine the unions spent tens of millions of dollars in WI.
  - http://banicki.biz/ steve banicki
    
    I got the number from a publication I read. I believe it was the New York Times.
    
    “Mr. Walker, who raised millions of dollars from conservative donors outside the state, had a strong financial advantage, in part because a quirk in state law allowed him months of unlimited fund-raising, from the time the recall challenge was mounted to when the election was officially called. As of late last month, about $45.6 million had been spent on behalf of Mr. Walker, compared with about $17.9 million for Mr. Barrett, according to data from the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, a nonpartisan group that tracks spending.”, NYT, June 6, 2011
    - Greyman
      
      Why has the measure in Wisconsin’s law been deemed “a quirk” (NPR itself characterized it earlier this week as some kind of peculiarity or oddity itself)? Why has it not simply been deemed “state law”?
      - Azra
        
        Probably because it’s unfathomable.
      - http://freeourfreemarkets.org/ steve banicki
        
        I don’t know. It sounds like he was allowed to start raising money before it was actually on the ballot. I am just guessing.
    - Victor Vito
      
      Oh, sorry steve… It can’t be accepted by anyone on the right because your source is the NY times. Y’know, the notoriuos “liberal rag”.
    - William
      
      The RNC said the unions spent 30 million. Since the RNC and NYTimes are opposite ends of the political hype the number would be some place in the middle.
- Markus
  
  I’m happy for the outcome. It gives me a small amount of hope that those who live off the state won’t win every time. But I do agree with your comment that money seems to be taking over elections. I haven’t looked into it enough and from this forum you only get one side. But it’s hard to guess what the supreme court was thinking when they made this decision.
- Azra
  
  No doubt about it, money talks. In politics, it shouts.
  
  $
http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

The lesson here is that ballot initiatives and recalls are bad ideas. We have elections to deal with politicians that we don’t like. If Walker committed criminal acts, the legislature should impeach and remove him. But an election do-over is just a game for sore losers.

I heard a discussion on All Things Considered about how Walker didn’t specifically promise to propose the changes to collective bargaining. But think about it. Walker’s a Republican. Did anyone vote for him under the impression that he supported unions? The voters decided in 2010, and now they’ve repeated that decision. On to 2014. . .
- Still Here
  
  The outcome suggested voters weren’t surprised by Walker’s actions in his first year and they approve of them.
  - JK in WI
    
    If the results left things exactly as they were in 2010, you may have a point.
    
    But the Governor and his party lost three senate seats and control of an entire house in the legislature.
    
    That says to me that the citizens of the state weren’t entirely happy with the actions of the group that’s in power…
- ana
  
  Walker may not support unions and in some cases rightly so, but more important, he does not support workers. He set them up as the enemy, demonized them and rather than do the heavly lift of making needed adjustments for he common good as any skilled leader would, he just used his power to get rid of the process. Workers, just as all people need to be affirmed not regarded as just some drain on the budget.
  
  It is this extremism that will facilitate the demise of the middle class.
  - http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
    
    Whether you agree with him or not, can you agree that voters should have known or did know what they were asking for?
    - ana
      
      Wasn’t much of a choice. Scott should have a least tried to encourage compromise, but even when concessions were made he had his agenda. He threw the baby out with the bathwater.
      It is easy to tear down. What is difficult is creative preservation of what has benefit to in this case workers.
    - JK in WI
      
      Generally speaking, the electorate is pretty ill-informed.
      
      Pair that with the fact that he said nothing about removing collective bargaining authority when he campaigned, and there’s actual *video* of then-candidate Walker saying that he’d work with the public employee unions, and I can see why people would feel duped.
      - http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
        
        Only by willful ignorance. He’s a Republican. Have voters not paid attention to the Republican Party’s attitude toward unions since Reagan?
      - JK in WI
        
        Probably not.
        
        I think it’s hard for people who pay attention to politics to put themselves in the minds of those who don’t, but I think there are a lot of people who vote for a politician or a political party for completely asinine reasons. They vote for the guy that’s most handsome and affable, or they vote for the Republican because that’s what their family has always done.
        
        To expect that the electorate is well-versed in the party’s platforms is probably expecting too much.
      - http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
        
        Really? Expecting people to make informed choices is too much? Then we have to give up on the idea of a democracy.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        Expecting people to make informed choices when the mainstream media offers them no objective information, and outlets like Faux News pretend to offer balance, is an exercise in futility.
        
        It’s not democracy which is the problem, it’s the abject failure of the fourth estate to perform its responsibility, coupled with the corruption of the electoral process by big money.
  - Azra
    
    Because he has no leadership skills; just another Republican bully.
- Victor Vito
  
  He launched an unprovoked and unprecedented assault on his political foes, and succeded. Folks in Wisconsin have ratified his tactic and the results.
- TFRX
  
  Walker asked for concessions. The unions agreed. He then went out to pretend that never happened.
  
  And it was never about saving money. The money crisis began after he gave his cronies backloaders and keys to the state treasury.
  
  He’s ramped up the rhetoric and the “government doesn’t work” crap we’ve all grown inured to from the GOP into the “new normal”. You should be smarter than to just handwave that away.
  
  Are you saying he actually campaigned on destroying the unions, rather than asking for concessions and givebacks, to which the unions agreed, for legally binding contracts?
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  You just can’t stomach real democracy, can you?
Erin in Iowa

Voting against your own interests is becoming more and more popular in this country. There is no one left that remembers why the unions (and social security and medicare and food stamps and unemployment insurance) were implemented in the first place. And everyone else seems perfectly content to remain in the dark about why we need them and how unions (and the other programs) POSITIVELY impact their lives, regardless of whether they’re in a union (or need food statmps) or not.

Oh well, if Republicans do it slowly enough that no one notices, someday we’ll ALL make $5 an hour in sweatshops! Hooray!
- notafeminista
  
  How come the Lefties always claim to know what someone else’s best interests are?
  - Emiller
    
    Because righties don’t seem to know?
    - notafeminista
      
      Righties don’t need to be told what to do.
      - TFRX
        
        They watch Fox for the information, you say? Not to be reinforced in their ignorance?
        
        That is soooo cute.
      - notafeminista
        
        I don’t own a television.
      - Still Here
        
        You’re not missing much.
  - Azra
    
    Because, unless we’re inthe elite 1%, our best interests, (what’s right for the Country), are all the same, so we must band together. . . solidarity.
    
    ALL FOR ONE, AND ONE FOR ALL.
    
    
    - notafeminista
      
      Nothing done by committee is ever done well.
  - Erin in Iowa
    
    Because if you WORK for a living, you should care that unions have raised wages for every career, public and private for 50 years; they increased the number of non-union employers provide health coverage and other perks in order to compete for employees; they set the standard work day and the standard workplace safety regulations that we all enjoy. Those things didn’t come out of nowhere.
    
    I don’t know what your “best” interests are, but I have at least taken the time to ask questions and think about the purpose of these organizations and programs without preconceived notions about the political and societal judgements of the word “union”. If you’d like to stop thinking at the word “union” – it’s a free country. And sorry, I don’t find the term “Lefty” or “Lefties” offensive.
    - notafeminista
      
      You are correct. You don’t know what my best interests are. Please stop assuming I don’t either.
- Stillin
  
  That’s right where the “have’s and not giving an inch” want us. Trust that. I’ll relocate internationally before I get played that way.
Still Here

The taxpayers of Wisconsin have won a great victory, even though some voted against their own interests. Thankfully, the vast majority didn’t.
TFRX

Curious to see how much we hear that it’s smooth sailing for Walker from the guests.

This wasn’t a reelection. He escaped by the skin of his teeth from being recalled. He was almost recalled like a Ford Pinto. It’s like one’s spouse cancelling their apppointment with a divorce lawyer.

If ever there was a show to ignore all the Beltway guests, it’s today.
- Gregg
  
  It wasn’t even close.
- Azra
  
  It all boils down to the big bucks.
  
  $
  - Still Here
    
    LOL, good one!
- jefe68
  
  I don’t call winning an election by almost 10 points escaping by the skin of his teeth.
  
  It was a dumb thing to do. I dislike everything Walker stands for but I’m not for recall elections. This just handed Wisconsin to the GOP.
Emiller

Fellow progressives: please join me in an informal boycott of all counties that voted against the recall.
- Azra
  
  What should we do?
- Victor Vito
  
  Wow, that’s alot of effort for a little bang. I think it is time to let Walker do his best (worst) and let the people decide how it went. The quiver is empty. Once unions are eliminated and the public sector decimated, people may feel differently about things.
  - Azra
    
    By then it will be too late? When all help and protection has been removed, how will we ever get it back, especially once we’re completely in the clutches of fasciests?
http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QME6C6XTBAYFEJP2GYDH3VQEMU Beat

iOnePoint:

The people of Wisconsin has spoken. Their voices are vital for the Presidential election of 2012.
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  The people of Wisconsin? 80% of Walker’s campaign money came from out of state and largely from the very wealthy (up to half million dollar contributions) because there was no individual contribution limit for the person being recalled while limits applied to his challenger.
  
  It was a rigged vote which was won by money, not voters.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Christopher-Peck/1698651022 Christopher Peck

Simply put, there is no card check in a voting booth. That’s why the victory margin was higher than what the exit polls showed.
AC

i think both sides are opportunistic and take as much as they can, so we will see this issue again. while historically, majority support has swung this pendulum one way then the other, it is interesting that at this point in history, traditional type ‘labor’ is becoming obsolete. In fact, most of the jobs with ‘unionization available’ are easily being replaced with technologies that allow severe budget cuts on humnas while continuing services do not suffer…..don’t know what to think about it all, we’ll have to wait 50 more years….
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  Lady, it won’t take 50 years. We ARE seeing the results, RIGHT NOW, with $ BILLIONAIRES, and $MILLIONAIRES, so-called ‘Job Creators’, that have ALL the advantages, NOT CREATING JOBS! Except foreign jobs, at LOW pay!
  - AC
    
    o yes, but what i mean is when push finally comes to shove next time, it’s going to be something-so much displacement, so many people….after that, we’ll settle in…and it will really be different than anything before
Victor Vito

I am sad and tired. I wish I was the type of person who could fight through the inertia and pick up and relocate my family to Scandinavia or one of the Low Countries. I have too many roots and too much family here in Wisconsin to make that dream happen. I would be all too happy to leave this state and country behind for Winston Smith, Gregg, and Still There.

I now reside in the space between between active political participation/discourse and civil disobedience/revolution. I guess it’s time to wait and see what Governor Walker and President Romney do with their newly ratified advantage.
- Gregg
  
  I didn’t realize you were in Wisconsin. You’ve got the right approach, I suspect you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Terry Tree Tree

Now that the Foreign GREEDY rich bought Scott Walker a job, for the SECOND time, with money that could have given THOUSANDS of people jobs, WATCH job Safety, Decent Working Conditions, Pay, and any other benefits DETERIORATE! For ALL but the GREEDY rich!
Did Scott Walker CUT the pay and benefits of Governor, Legislators, and other GREEDY rich FIRST, or is he just a GREEDY HYPOCRITE?
- Goldbug
  
  The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed — for lack of a better word — is good.
  Greed is right.
  Greed works.
  Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
  - Victor Vito
    
    It is motivating, but I wouldn’t assign a value judgement to it.
  - Victor Vito
    
    Are you glad or proud when your children act greedy?
- Brothersower88
  
  In your statement, you can replace the words “Scott Walker” with the word “Politicians” and not lose much. Instead of the demonizing one man instead perhaps we should recognize there is a problem with the system as a whole.
  - Terry Tree Tree
    
    AGREED! Scott Walker is the politician in the spotlight, at this time!
    It certainly IS a problem with the system, as a whole!
JGC

BREAKING NEWS FROM THE BOROWITZ REPORT:

“Canada bracing for massive influx of Wisconsin Boat People…Conor McGlindon, commander of the Royal Canadian Mounted Coast Guard, said that satellite photos had revealed a “substantial flotilla” in the making, as Wisconsinites prepare to flee their state for their neighbor to the North. “Word has gotten around that we have policemen, firemen and basic school lunches up here,” Mr. McGlindon said. “You can’t blame them for seeking a better life. But we are under orders to intercept them.”

Canadian officials also fear that refugees from Wisconsin will brave the treacherous journey across Lake Superior in the hopes of giving birth to so-called “anchor babies” on Canadian soil…”

More on this at http://www.borowitzreport.com/
- Greyman
  
  The border presence might even be more formidable in Illinois, their state government is the Midwest’s equivalent to California’s and would be hard pressed to extend much welcome to vagrant state senators or disaffected public sector union members.
robizio

This vote was more an Anti-recall vote than a Pro-Walker vote. Even a significant portion of D’s said someone should only be recalled due to misconduct.
- TFRX
  
  Misconduct, like the vote “count” in the lege, or the “we don’t need no stinkin comment period” stuff?
  - Brothersower88
    
    Perhaps: murder, stealing, criminal activity, etc.
    
    If “not liking” what a politician does deserves a recall, there could be even more wastes in time and money, and even less action taken (assuming action is needed–a large assumption depending on individual views).
    
    I tend to think robizio has a good handle on this issue.
    
    PS There could be a big change in the leadership of Wisconsin at the end of the term (or not), but at least it wouldn’t set a possibly devastating precedent.
    - TFRX
      
      Opening up the viewfinder, so to speak, I don’t remember the media wringing its hands over recalling Grey Davis in California.
      
      I can’t for the life of me remember what the difference was.
- JK in WI
  
  The Wisconsin state constitution has two mechanisms for removing politicians from office: an impeachment trial, which is reserved for elected officials who conduct unlawful activity, and a recall election, which allows the citizens of the state to remove a politician from office for any other reason, so long as the minimum number of signatures is collected.
  
  Changing the state constitution to make recall requirements more like impeachment requirements would be a waste of time. It would also take away the citizen’s only recourse against overzealous politicians, (between general elections.) and increase the likelihood of further political over-reach.
John C

Wow, I am surprised. I expected the unions to nail this one down, considering the media coverage coming out of Wisconsin.

Not sure if it’s the right thing, but I hope it works out.
Still Here

What a surprise the academic, and probably union member, is making excuses!
- Emiller
  
  Rude still here. Try to be civil please.
Suzie in Newport, RI

Middle class Wisconsites voted against themselves. Somehow they came to see that others struggling to stay in the middle class are the enemy. They have swallowed hole the anti-labor attacks spearheaded by Reagan in the 80s. This is so distressing because the stupidity of the American people is so blatantly on display. The Koch brothers have managed to trick what must be undereducated Americans into hanging themselves. Why would Americans vote to take away their own rights?
- Gregg
  
  There is no right to public sector collective bargaining.
  
  All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations …
  
  http://www2.hernandotoday.com/news/hernando-news/2010/oct/17/ha-fdrs-warning-public-employee-unions-a-no-no-ar-291004/
  - Suzie in Newport, RI
    
    Clearly you are citing a juicy tidbit from the right-wing blogo-sphere.
    
    The history of the American labor movement throughout the twentieth century is the history of trying to limit, through legislation, the power of labor unions as they emerged throughout the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. If I am not mistaken, you are citing the Taft Hartley Act, which aimed precisely to limit, to neuter, the power of the unions, which succeeded before that in obtaining such nefarious rights as a right to safety in the workplace, the illegalization of child labor, the right to a limitation of the length of the workday, etc. The American government has feared the power of labor throughout the 20th century, hence the vehement anti-Red movement since the early 1900s. It’s all about power, and we are witnessing yet another chapter in the dis-empowerment of the average American worker.
    - Gregg
      
      The quote is from FDR. It’s not about “the dis-empowerment of the average American worker”. The line that union supporter FDR spoke of was public sector unions. The government has no money, it’s ours. When public sector unions collectively bargain against the government they are adversaries of the people. If workers want to unite to address grievances in the private sector, fine.
      - notafeminista
        
        Like, like, like!
      - Suzie in Newport, RI
        
        Aren’t members of public sector unions also included in the “people”? So members of public sector unions are, at least in part, going to war against themselves, according to your reasoning? Doesn’t it make society better for all the “people” to have a middle class with money to spend, a middle class that includes public sector workers with decent salaries, benefits, some security, and pensions? When these public sector workers have decent salaries, they can then pay taxes, which benefits the public good (oops, sorry, I know I am getting into ideological territory that you despise). And it is indeed unions who helped these workers get these benefits. Who does it benefit to have a tiny upperclass (the 1%) and a massive underclass (the 99%)?
- William
  
  Which middle class? Those that go out and earn a living in the private sector or those that are in government jobs and don’t mind the taxpayers spending millions of dollars on this failed recall election? Why don’t those public sector people care?
- notafeminista
  
  How would someone from RI know what’s best for someone in WI?
  - Suzie in Newport, RI
    
    Yes, of course, only people who live in a given state should be permitted to comment upon another state’s politics. Forgive my infringement upon precious “state’s rights.” And by the way, I respect deeply your declaration that you are not a feminist.
Cya

This is the way that Liberty dies… with thunderous applause.

Scott Walker’s win and his supporters exuberance is evidence that the majority of Wisconsin voters are firmly within the control of those that have the money and control in our society.

They have been so succesfully manipulated that they have voted their own rights away. Sad, but what Wisconsin and America deserves if they are going to allow themselves to be swayed by the corporations transparent campaigning.
- Azra
  
  That’s right, and even sadder, it’s preventable. They don’t have to be so gullible and easily manipulated, all it takes is routine fact checks. In no time at all, they would be thinking for themselves, instead of being bamboozled and pushed around by the corrupt Elite.
  
  Knowledge is power.
Dave

I’m a Wisconsin resident listening on the Internet. I’m afraid many Wisconsin residents won’t
hear this show until its replay at 6:00 CT on Wisconsin Public Radio.

I’m very much opposed to Scott Walker. But I think recall elections should only be
used for legal malfeasance or ethical violations. It’s clear that Democrats and public unions
clearly misfired. With Walker winning by
a greater margin than in the 2010 election, he now comes out of this vindicated
and looking like a hero to national conservatives. How depressing.

Dave Olnhausen
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- Suzie in Newport, RI
  
  Do you consider taking away collective bargaining rights to be ethical? Your reasoning suggests that you think that it was ethical for Walker to take these rights away from the people of Wisconsin. If this is correct, I disagree with you vehemently.
  - Brothersower88
    
    Ethical is a hard word to describe as it deals with morality. Depending on peoples very differing beliefs very different lines can be drawn for what is and isn’t ethical.
    
    If you take out the line “or ethical violations.” the OP has a sound statement.
    
    I have not intention of defending the following example of different views of ethical, but here is a simplified example:
    1) Joe wants to work for the government, but doesn’t want to be part of the union… He is forced to against his will. Unions=Bad
    2) Jane is in a union and feels that it makes her a better worker (higher pay, drive, security, etc). Unions=Good
    - Suzie in Newport, RI
      
      Your analysis is precisely why the initial comment we are responding to is not a strong argument against a recall election. Since it is so difficult to determine what is ethical, this is a gray area in determining whether the recall was legitimate or not.
      - Brothersower88
        
        It is a good argument without the three words “or ethical violations” which only muddy the conversation.
        
        Neither of us would have posted here if those three words (which don’t add a whole lot to the conversation) weren’t in the statement.
        
        I can footnote disapproval for those three words and still say the overall argument is solid.
  - Emiller
    
    Hmm, good point Suzie!
  - Dan
    
    Collective bargaining for STATE workers. There is a democratic conflict of interest there. Its a fact. This is not about unions wholesale or collective bargaining in the private sector.
    
    This type of hyperbole, or ignorance, is what is showing the Democrats to be insincere or ignorant or “for” big government, and eroding their support going into November.
  - Dave
    
    Perhaps my use of the term “ethical violations” is too
    vague. I think it was wrong for Walker
    to take away union collective bargaining rights. But when I think of ethical violations, I
    imagine, for example, a politician who votes for an enormous subsidy/tax break to
    a company that his family owns and will benefit from.
  - Azra
    
    Reasoning???
- Emiller
  
  Finally a dissenting voice I can respect. Thanks for your measured analysis Dave. Granted that the unions, etc. “failed” in one sense and that this may not have been a legit. cause for recall. I wouldn’t rule out a renewed sense of purpose for the left though–and a powerful surge against Citizens United.
Deerhunter

This is great for the gop!!! Now lets get rid of obama
http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

People go on and on about money, but my vote isn’t bought. Voters make their choices. If those are uneducated, then they get what they deserve. If they are educated, they get what they want.
- Still Here
  
  Nobody’s vote is bought.
  - Azra
    
    What color is the sky in your world?
    - Still Here
      
      Don’t know, like America, I’m color blind.
- Brothersower88
  
  I agree (to an extent).
  
  In general, the more value the voter places on education the less money has an impact.
  
  Some people never had an appreciation for education (self)cultivated, so they might get what they think they “understand” instead of what they “want.”
- TFRX
  
  People whose “vote isn’t bought” are vastly outnumbered. Your ability to detect crap in ads or spin (represented as news) doesn’t do anything for the idiots out there.
  
  Enough of the “idiots out there” and you and I get what they vote for.
  - http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
    
    Then it’s their own fault. We can’t make a world that is safe for idiots that intelligent people will still enjoy.
    - TFRX
      
      I don’t care about making the world safe for idiots. I just don’t see where you get off not worrying about what everybody else is suckered into.
      
      The slightest bit of media crit may do you a world of good.
      - http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
        
        I do my own critiques and make my own choices, but I’m not going to compel others to go my way.
      - TFRX
        
        Two smart lemmings (literal lemmings) can dig in their heels and still be overrun or carried along off the cliff by the idiot lemmings in front, alongside, and behind them.
        
        It’s not about what they do to themselves. And I’ve worked enough in the low-level media to know where the fault lies.
    - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
      
      If you consider yourself among the ranks of the intelligent and educated, it’s no wonder that America is in the state it’s in.
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  Educated? You mean by Faux News? The populace can be said to be appropriately informed only when the fourth estate – the media – take their responsibility to the republic seriously, rather than spread propaganda.
MadMarkTheCodeWarrior

Yay! Let’s make all those evil teachers suffer with lower wages and make it impossible for future teachers to pay for their required education. Yes, let’s eliminate any regulation that require that teachers have any education at all.

Clearly the corporations are suffering and the tax breaks are needed to steal jobs from other states… perhaps if states stopped underbidding each other, we’d start generating some revenue from corporations.

Clearly corporations are entitled to the benefits afforded by tax funded infrastructure that their businesses depend upon.
Terry Tree Tree

IF ALL those Foreign Millions of Dollars were spent to sway a few undecided voters, HOW MUCH was spent per undecided voter?
MORE than enough to have HIRED them for a year, evidently?
Wingswork

The middle class will just keep losing pay, losing benefits, and their jobs. Even though Walker won, millions of people DIDN’T vote for him.
- Azra
  
  True. The sad thing is that so many, judging by some contributors to this blog, just don’t get it, and the unscrupulous are using that fact to their advantage. Ignorance is running rampant in America.
  - Still Here
    
    At least you have identified your issue. Good luck.
Still Here

Wisconsin state employee rolls are declining, yet service levels are more than sufficient in the minds of Wisconsin voters. Let’s keep the momentum going!!
lodger

Please ask your guests about the role of Diebold in counting these votes.
- lodger
  
  Sorry, should have referred to Diebold by their new name, ES&S.
  - Azra
    
    Don’t you mean BS?
    - Warren
      
      LOatinos don’t vote Republican????The last two Presidents of Mexico are Republicans,as is the Governor of Puerto Rico.I won’t mention MArtinez and Rubio
      - Azra
        
        Think this was tagged to the wrong topic. Discussion on Mexico was quite awhile ago, in which I wasn’t involved; haven’t mentioned anything about Mexico, there or here.
        
        
        
      - Azra
        
        Since you brought it up, we’re discussing American politics here, and there can’t be many Mexican-Americans who are foolish enough, or masochistic enough to ever vote Republican in America today. Maybe some Republican in the future will be on the side of Latinos, and immigrants, but that won’t be happening any time soon.
  - Terry Tree Tree
    
    Thanks! I didn’t know that Diebold changed their name, like Phillip Morris Tobbacco changed to Altria, Blackwater to Xe Services, and a lot of others!
- lodger
  
  For those who are interested here’s an article from Jan 2012
  
  http://themoderatevoice.com/133652/election-system-alert-ess-machines/
http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

Laura Dresser, explain how the middle is dampened. Don’t assume that it’s the case. Give us the details of the process.
NoelTheOne

Lost in this discussion of the Walker race is that the Democrats appear to have gained control of the state senate.
BHA in Vermont

Reiterating a comment I’ve made before. We need REAL campaign finance reform:

1) If you are a person and either can not vote in an election, or will not be governed by the person or bill being voted on, you should not be able to spend ANY money on the election. Not directly, not through PACs, NONE.

Meaning – If you live in South Carolina, you shouldn’t be able to spend any money on an election in Wisconsin. If you are a minor, or are not allowed to vote for some other reason, but live in Wisconsin, you can spend money to legal limits on elections in Wisconsin.

2) If you are a business, union, other organization that plays in the political arena: The amount you can spend (directly, PACs, etc) on ALL political endeavors in a given tax year on elections in a state/locality is limited the percentage of your income received in a given tax year from the state/locality, etc. And that percentage can not be higher than the total amount you spend on political endeavors for the tax year.

Meaning, if you spend $1M in all political endeavors and you get 10% of your income from a state/locality, you can spend no more than $100K in elections in that state/locality.
- http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp
  
  Only if you can explain how any money pays for your vote.
  - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
    
    It must be just a coincidence that in 80% of elections, the party who spent the most money wins.
- Deerhunter
  
  Get over it the dems lost!
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  I can go along with #1, but not #2. No corporation or union should be allowed to contribute to a political campaign, since the people who make up those organizations already have an individual right to contribute as citizens.
  
  It used to be considered criminal bribery in America for a private, for-profit corporation to give any money to any politician to influence either an election or legislation.
  
  Corporate lobbying should likewise be outlawed once again, and corporate personhood eliminated by a constitutional amendment so that no court can ever invent it again.
Ruben

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/wisconsin-democrat-appears-to-win-state-senate-recall/2012/06/06/gJQAxpqTIV_blog.html
Dan

Listening to Don Walker’s rational and dispassionate analysis of what Governor Walker was doing and why, noting the anti-democratic reality of collective bargaining by STATE workers, with respect to the rest of the citizenry, highlighting the deficit reduction without tax increases AND without large service cuts, and concluding with “that’s pretty good for government work”, just puts all the left wing bloating and emotional handwringing in perspective.

As an independent minded voter, it sways me against the Democrats and towards current fiscally conservative Republican positions.
- Guest
  
  His dispassionate and *selective* analysis of what the governor was doing. The rest of the citizenry’s turn is yet to come, acc. to that under-publicized video of Walker speaking with big donors about going after the private sector next. Increasing revenue (yes, taxes) isn’t an irresponsible position for government to take–it’s all about who’s paying, and how much, right? Well, guess who isn’t paying.
  - Dan
    
    cart before horse. If he went to outlaw “unions” altogether, he would have been recalled. Lets try some dispassion, and operate with what is actually in front of us instead of conflating and throwing out babies with bathwater.
    
    Paranoia about what could be next, is not necessary in a democratic republic.
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  WAS Scott Walker ‘fiscally conservative’, when he GAVE all those contracts to his cronies, at the start of his administration, which PUT Wisconsin in dire straits, BEFORE he attacked the unions?
Frank

re Wash Post link, Dems may have one-vote majority in Legislature
- Guest
  
  Which will not re-convene until November. But it’s a good point!
  - Still Here
    
    Hopefully, Walker can use his recently confirmed democratic powers and make a ton of executive orders in the interim.
- Warren
  
  Next year,after the election!!!!!!!!!A pyrrhic win at best
Guest

Jacki, there are still ten minutes left, but this has been a noticeably lopsided program. You cut off the one caller who had a pro-Democratic point (caller from Smyrna) and are giving the men a lot of airtime–and fairly uncritical acceptance of the contention that the money doesn’t matter.
- Brothersower88
  
  I just hope Tom is alright!
  
  Odd he would take a day off right when this story was going to hit.
  - Still Here
    
    I think it was too much for him to deal with. Jacki did a nice job. Let the panelists talk. Must be her Wisconsin upbringing. Go Racoons!
  - Azra
    
    If he’s had a serious accident, I hope he has reliable health insurance.
- Still Here
  
  Pathetic.
Dave

By the way, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the final exit
polls were closer to the actual election tally than the original data released
at 8:00 PM CT. In the Internet age, the
preliminary numbers are released too early and people think, “Oh, the exit
polls were way off”.�
�
Dave Olnhausen
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Steve

So now that corporate execs and non-wage earners have opened season on unions, will they attack the most powerful collective bargaining unit; political parties? Interesting that collective bargaining plays in their favor in one context but not the other. Interesting too how each may be manipulated for a price.
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  OR, the American Medical Association, the American Bar Association, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and ALL the other organizations that function like unions, or more abusive, for THEIR members?
Art

I’ve met a very dedicated math teacher from Wisconsin who has worked very hard and sacrificed a lot to be an excellent teacher. Those who suffer from Gov. Walker’s policies are real people, who chose a career based on an implied contract for the conditions in which they work, which now is at risk. The failure to gain the consent of the people he governs was not just bad public relations but a failure of leadership. If there is an exodus of good teachers from Wisconsin and a future shortage of teachers, this would be very negative long term consequences indeed for Wisconsin.
- Still Here
  
  Taxpayers are people too!
  - Terry Tree Tree
    
    ALL union members are people! IS a FOREIGN Corporation a U.S. Citizen? IS a FOREIGN Corporation a people? OR, are they employing people that have a vote, already?
    ALL union members are taxpayers!!
    - Warren
      
      When our addlepated friend heard the news he crashed the fire truck and the GREEEEEEDY,GREEEEDY JUNKIES stole the hoses again
      - Terry Tree Tree
        
        Your self-administered ‘chemicals’ causing you more delusions?
- Dan
  
  What suffering? Teachers today are paid well and have tremendous benefits. Are many private sector salaries bloated and un-justified, and subsidized by the corruption of our monetary an fiscal policy being funneled to corporate America by both parties? ABSOLUTELY!
  
  But in the real world of wages and work and benefits, teachers do a great, real and tangible service, and are paid decently and have a relatively stable quality of life.
  
  2 wrongs don’t make a right. Lets work on uncoupling the Fed/Government from Corporate America, and let real competition and accountability (too big to fail, bailouts) bring their obscene “wages” down organically.
  - TFRX
    
    The supply closet at my office is a net dispenser of office supplies, not someplace I put stuff I buy at Staples with my own money.
    - notafeminista
      
      The office supply fairy brings them?
  - Alan in NH
    
    I would phrase it “uncoupling corporate America from the government” but how do you propose to do this? Do the corporations seem poised to disentangle themselves? Do the government officials they influence seemed prepared to leave the trough of funding they receive? But which ever way you phrase it, there’s quite a party going on. What is your proposal for how this uncoupling happens?
    - Dan
      
      Not the “bipartisan”, “third”, or “public/private partnership”, or other permutations of the revolving door and well-meaning, but ill-fated cavorting between those with the power of the Rule of Law, and those meant to be held to it.
      
      Free markets, where the dog eat dog of competition takes place WITHIN the rules/boundaries set by society. Free enterprise should be clawing and fighting amongst itself (like small business does) to be happy to make a decent profit/salary after re-investment in the enterprise.
      
      Right now, Corporatism, run by both parties, the Fed, and the Corporate elite who travel around the revolving doors, is ruining our experiment in Liberty and a Constitutional Rule of Law Republic.
      
      Big Government, especially the “well-meaning”, technocratic, micro-managing kind, colludes, intentionally or not, with Big Business, especially Big Finance.
      
      Smaller Government, less centralized power, along with a strictly enforced Rule of Law, is the only way to reduce the collusion/corruption.
      
      Folks like Ron Paul have been trying to explain it, but for many, they don’t bother listen, preferring to give in to their ignorant preconceptions about the messenger.
      
      This place is a good start to think about the issues:
      http://www.capitalismwithoutfailure.com/
      
      We have forgotten what tyranny means, and how our American Experiment was set up to avoid it, while maximizing human freedom.
      
      That was a good thing, even if people today are so distracted and materialistic and spoiled if not dependent to understand it anymore.
      - Dan
        
        Bill Black: Geithner Channels Greenspan and Airbrushes Fraud out of our Criseshttp://www.capitalismwithoutfailure.com/2012/05/bill-black-geithner-channels-greenspan.html
      - Dan
        
        http://www.capitalismwithoutfailure.com/2012/05/bill-black-geithner-channels-greenspan.html
  - JohnGraff
    
    Teachers are actually losing ground compared to other college graduates even when you take into account their “tremendous benefits.”
    �
    http://www.epi.org/publication/book_teaching_penalty/
    
    Contrast this with the trends in CEO pay (The average S&P 500 CEO pay now stands at some $12.94 million).
    
    http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/CEO-Pay-and-the-99/Trends-in-CEO-Pay
- Worried for the country(MA)
  
  Walker was able to avoid teacher layoffs with his reforms. Therefore, the kids benefit. Isn’t that what it should be all about?
  
  Also, an independent study in WI showed that public sector compensation exceeded private sector [for like jobs based on experience level] by 28% prior to Walker’s reforms and dropped to 22% advantage after the reforms. Hardly draconian.
  - Zero
    
    The teacher unions agreed to the pay cuts, but Walker wanted to take away their bartering rights because he believes that unions aren’t reasonable. Think about that.
- Markus
  
  Good teachers should be paid well. Bad teachers should be fired. One of the problems is you can’t get rid of bad teachers or promote good ones faster because the union doesn’t let you. Our public schools have some that everyone knows are just putting in their time. Each year, we prayed that our kids wouldn’t get too many of these and when it happened, we did our best to help our kids make progress in spite of them.
  
  Because of these few jerks, how little they seemed to care about their craft and how much the union protected them (we’ve talked with the principal), we’ve become very hardened against unions. And our community is one of the best in the state. I can only imagine how bad it is for parents in most of the rest of the state.
  
  From what I see, unions couldn’t care less about the kids, they protect the incompetents, and primarily care about themselves.
  
  I am amazed every time people in this forum take the side of the teacher’s union.
  - TFRX
    
    I’m amazed every time people think that the good teachers can fix everything else wrong with teaching, starting with having to buy toilet paper and exam books with the money they won on the Jeopardy! teacher’s tournament.
    
    I’m amazed that our intellectual overlords on the right, who have been harping about teachers’ unions for two generations, haven’t paid their Galtian genius collegians a stipend to suffer as education majors, starting when Reagan became president, and then naturally take over the place owing to their superiorosityness.
    
    Maybe it’s just that teaching is a difficult job which people do because they enjoy it. Maybe all the crap we hear about how much teachers make for how little work just isn’t realized when someone wants to become a teacher for the money.
    - Markus
      
      No one has said that teachers can fix everything. Odd statement. But bad teachers can do a lot of damage. And there is no mechanism for getting rid of them and few incentives for them to improve.
      
      Not sure what the second para is about, so this may be off point, but I’ve seen the McKinsey study on education majors and their scores relative to other professions are very low. The theory was that the bright kids go into other professions like law (which is sad, by the way). I guess I need to say this, in this case, this was an average, meaning not every education major was relatively low.
      
      Don’t think anyone said teaching isn’t difficult – at least good teaching.
      - TFRX
        
        No one has said that teachers can fix everything
        
        Ever see “Waiting for Superman”? It’s a central theme of the movie, how all the stuff done to destroy public education can be fixed by selfless saints of teachers who don’t take jobs out in the rich suburbs, and yet catch an inordinate amount of the blame for how many of the students turn out.
        
        The second paragraph is about how the right gets to ream all teachers (in the media, mainly), and why they’re not making it better if it’s so easy. (Hint: It isn’t. But the one solution they’re hung up on sounds easy.)
  - JK in WI
    
    I agree with the sentiment in your first paragraph. This seems to be one of the big selling points of Act 10.
    
    However, I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why permanently revoking collective bargaining authority was necessary. I mean, I understand why it was necessary for his particular plan, but Act 10 wasn’t the only approach available to him.
    
    Collective bargaining and related issues like merit pay could’ve been addressed in separate legislation, where these labor relations issues could’ve been debated on their own virtues.
    
    It’s obvious that the governor wasn’t looking to reform labor relations. He’s an unabashed conservative idealogue. He saw the state’s budget woes as an opportunity to pass legislation that would cripple a political adversary, and he took full advantage of that opportunity.
- William
  
  Why is it that the schools were forced to buy insurance in WI from a union related company? That to many people seemed very corrupt and should have never been allowed.
  - Azra
    
    
    
    Why is it that teachers are forced to go out and buy necessary school supplies, then pay for them with their own money?
    
    
Dan M.

No wonder the Democrat side Lost,They picked a rerun of 2010 election, I Hope President Obama can do better than this Wisconsin election.
- Warren
  
  Suenos,nada mas que suenos!!!
  - Azra
    
    Al contrario, es la verdad.
    
    
Warren

Congratulations to the newest of the Liberated states!!!!Once again the entire editorial board of the NYT is at Bellvue on Thorazine drips.Herr Krugman was seen running down the halls spouting something about declaring war on Alpha Centauri.
Like Leonides at Thermopylae the warriors Gregg,Not-a-feminista,Still Here,William,U.S.Vet,Moda(R.I.P.)battled Xerxes and his army of 100,000 Leftists.Most righteous job kids!!!!
- TFRX
  
  I thought the whole idea of inventing a different name was to at least give oneself the chance at pretending one was a different person than the troll with the old, discredited name.
- Victor Vito
  
  Can’t wait til we are officially a right to work state. Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi, here we come!
  - JohnGraff
    
    I think you mean a “right-to-work-for-less” state.
Warren

As soon as the laws permitting involuntary seizure of Dues and mandatory Unionization,the Teacher’s Unions and Afcsme lost half their members.Monies from Dues cratered.The Democrats were undone by the GREEEEEDY, GREEEEEDY,GREEEEEDY UNIONS.
FDR and Meany both warned about the Public Unions…,.Did you see that SEIU type lady slap Mr.Barnett(why is the left so violent)If you listen closely to the speech someone keeps yelling “Kill them,kill them”.Was that you Jason A?
And what’s up with Pres.Clinton and his moments of truth.Pres.Obama had that styricken look,like “ES TU Brutus”!!!
- Still Here
  
  Finally the correct attribution of the wordy greedy; often overused on this board. Caps were a nice touch as well!
  - Zero
    
    I guess greedy only applies to average American earners and never to the top earners….
- Warren
  
  should read…”were rescinded”
- Victor Vito
  
  Well, I guess it is good that they have been destroyed in Wisconsin and many other states to follow. I’m sure we’ll all be much better off.
- Buddhaclown
  
  What is your point? That everyone should be as miserable as you are? Other than that you just seem to ramble on and on and on . . . throwing in the word “GREEEEDY” as much as you can. Get a life loser.
  - jefe68
    
    Warren seems to be the same person as Moda. That guy was kicked off for being a bit of a wanker.
    Seems whom ever this is, is now trying for another shot at being the most obnoxious blowhard on the forum. Methinks it is the same yeoman.
Warren

What “Recovery Summer” is it this year?.If I were Pres.Romney my first act would be the reestablishment of the D.C.”Voucher Scholarship “programs.The one that Pres.Obama rescinded.This is the second time the Republicans have had to rescue the Slaves from the patronizing,Paternalistic Democrats and their suspect Teacher Unions.The Teacher’s Unions gave 100% to the Democrats.Last year American Students performed the worst ever,in all seven measured disciplines.
What’s more dangerous….Baghdad OR Pres.Obamas South Side of Chicago?.Two weekends ago there were 40 shootings and ten deaths.
- Azra
  
  There would be no shooting deaths or injuries if there were no guns.
  
  Just curious, what does that have to do with President Obama?
  - Azra
    
    
    
    . . . or Iraq?
    
    
- jimino
  
  Why don’t you, along with the families of Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowicz, Feith, and others of their ilk move to Baghdad and show us? It could be a reality show on Fox, where your are filmed going about your daily life in that democratic miracle in the middle east we have created.
  
  Or are you just another cowardly blowhard?
HWatsonIII

The American labor management model is based on the free market system, and the right to collectively strike the company or to unilaterally lock out the employees. Either way, the company is temporarily out of the market, and the market pressures on each side will ultimately play out into a resolution of some sort or another. In good times, this fits the public sector badly; in tough times, not at all. Government is not in the business of locking out its only reason for existing, to provide services necessarily available from government, and the right to strike is severely limited by law in those states allowing collective bargaining for its public employees. There is no “profit” in government, and the “market” is artificial and captive, i.e., the people and property governed. When revenues are flush, tinkering with the edges of wages and benefits does no harm, but when faced with budget deficits, there is no economic model for the government to refer to in deciding to raise taxes or cut services. Taking the spectre of having to deal with public sector unions under such circumstances may have bought Wisconsin enough time to sort out its problems. All we in the rest of the world should and can do is watch and learn.
- Terry Tree Tree
  
  Typically, Management TAKES higher pay and benefits, when they ‘give in’ to labor unions! THEY use the smaller percentage of increase for labor, to ‘justify’ their GREATER percentage of increase! �
  DO they CUT THEIR OWN pay and benefits, BEFORE demanding cuts from labor? OR, are they just GREEDY HYPOCRITES?
StopSpendingNow

Elitist liberals, so sure of their own intellect and dismissive of everyone else’s, always assume that the unwashed masses couldn’t possibly have understood the issues and cast their votes according to conscience; in the small, closed mind of a liberal, any time a person casts a vote not in accordance with liberal dogma, it must be because they were blindly led by the evil monied interests. It couldn’t possibly be that a majority of citizens in Wisconsin repudiated Big Labor’s plundering of government revenues for its own self-interest.
- Victor Vito
  
  Aren’t you guilty in your post of exactly what you claim liberals do?
  - anti-wing-nut
    
    right with his/her 2 opening words – “elitist liberals.” I’m not a liberal, but if you use that, or any other Fox News-like buzz words, you take a giant steaming crap on the legitimacy of your statement. Especially if you are generalizing a political ethos. Par for the course on American political discourse…
    - crtum
      
      who is using buzz word?
- Victor Vito
  
  Ever looked around at a crowded public place? Lots of folks who don’t know their arse from a hole in the ground.
  - Zing
    
    I agree, but Dems have the same freedom of movement as intelligent folks…diversity is beautiful.
- jefe68
  
  Hyperbole, pure unadulterated hyperbole.
- Still Here
  
  Exactly right, well said.
- Zero
  
  You know what would save the middle class? …Destroying the very things that created the middle class like labor unions and the New Deal.
  
  Certainly, unions that represent the average American worker are certainly more malignant than a couple of oil billionaires out to get another tax cut. God forbid a teacher, a police officer, and a fire fighter have the freedom to ask for a raise.
Sam Walworth

Unated Walker..

Go do what you wanted to do.. Get rid of all the excess, make it a thin govt state and lead us by your example.

Lets go to Nov with that mission..
Sam Walworth

Untamed Walker..Go do what you wanted to do.. Get rid of all the excess, make it a thin govt state and lead us by your example.Lets go to Nov with that mission..
- Bruce
  
  News Flash: Apparently, the Republicants lost a seat in the Wis. State Senate last night giving the Dems the majority in that body. Also, exit polls showed that the same voters who affirmed Walker favored Obama by a substantial margin over the presumptive nominee of the GOP (i.e. Grand Old Plutocrat Party).
  
  Walker followed the Karl Rove playbook that contained a chapter on demonizing public employees–a strategy based on two lies: public employees are responsible for State budget crises and public employees earn more than private-sector workers.
  
  The reality is that over the last two decades the pay of public employees including teachers has dropped compared to private-sector workers at the same educational level (even after factoring in health & retirement benefits).
  
  Generally, collective bargaining rights for public employees are not the driver of State budget deficits that the corporate elite and their stooges like Walker would have you believe. For example, States like Nevada, North Carolina and Arizona, which deny their workers bargaining rights, are among the States with the highest deficits as a percentage of spending. On the other hand, States like Massachusetts, New Mexico and Montana that grant bargaining rights, have historically had the lowest deficits.
  
  In the face of budget shortfalls, Republicants would rather go after teachers and other public employees (and the working middle-class and poor that depend on their services) rather than the Wall St. bankers, traders, hedge fund & private-equity managers many of whom caused the financial meltdown in the first place and benefited obscenely from taxpayer-supported bailouts.
  - Sam Walworth
    
    Bruce,
    
    I was trying to be sarcastic.
    
    I just want to see how this all plays out in Walkers remaining time and how exactly he gets next term and what will the state of the economy in WI in the coming years.
    
    Regarding Nov, I have no clue how it will play out, but hopefully American voters pick the right man for the job.
    - Bruce
      
      Now I get it. Thanks for the clarification. I forgot to mention the third lie that Walker used to elevate himself to his status as the rising star within the Ayn Rand-inspired GOP universe alongside fellow Wisconsinite, Paul Ryan.
      
      When he ran for Gov., Walker promised only to get concessions from the unions and never hinted that he intended to strip public employees of their right to organize and bargain. The citizens of WI deserved better, but were apparently unwilling to oust an elected official without evidence of criminal behavior although it should be noted that Walker may be the target of two investigations for possible misconduct in a previous position.
      
      Yesterday, WI voters seemed okay with allowing powerful out-of-state interests to fund their Governor’s campaign and determine the election’s outcome. By Nov. there may be a more even playing field where the issues and candidates’ character may matter more to the voters than the agenda of a few eccentric millionaires.
      - Bill
        
        You glossed over the fact that the Governor’s campaign and the subsequent election were both forced upon the voters.
Adirondax

To pretend, as one of the guests did today, that the amount of advertising candidates use isn’t effective in determing election outcomes is beyond naive.

If it wasn’t why would Romney have outspent his Republican rivals many times over? Why would Obama have blanked the airwaves during the ’08 election, clearly outspending McCain and what’s her name.Propaganda is with us today in spades. We make the Germans of the 1930′s look like amateurs.What is extraordinary is how successful it all is. Millions of Americans now mouth the platitudes, er..talking points provided by Fox News as if they were the truth.So, what is the “truth?” That income inequality hasn’t been this extreme since the 1920′s. It tears at the very fabric of our society and the underlying economy. Power lies with the .1%ers, and in case it has escaped you, they’re running the show.Ever notice how the “soft” topic points about freedom, homophobia, and the flag are all somehow equated to lower taxes for the rich and their corporations? Guess what, it’s no coincidence.Political pendulums swing to the left and then the right. My guess is that we’re getting towards the end of a rightward swing. But who’s to say?
- StopSpendingNow
  
  Sure advertising works, but it isn’t likely to coerce someone into doing something they weren’t inclined to do to begin with. I bet the voters of Wisconsin saw the record of Governor Walker and were pleased with what he has done, so they voted by a large margin to keep him in office. If all it took was advertising to sway people into doing something they wouldn’t otherwise do, the marketing budget targeted at single males to purchase tampons would be astronomical.
  - Zero
    
    Does who think they are impervious to propaganda are the most propagandized.
    
    Read this:
    
    http://www.amazon.com/Propaganda-The-Formation-Mens-Attitudes/dp/0394718747/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339036230&sr=8-1
    - Zero
      
      Those who…
Doug

I’ve voted primarily Democrat for many decades because civil rights is my top concern. Walker’s win, however is ok with me. The average citizen in the U S can make it if they take advantage of the free education and work hard. I did it and it is happening all the time.
Our big challenge is to get our balance sheet in order.
BUT… if the Republicans let their fanatical wing attack civil rights, voters rights, gender rights, I will vote straight Dem.
- http://pulse.yahoo.com/_CRTBVXTQSOPGLVECV6HA3NYJZA MoniqueDC
  
  Have you looked at the average cost of tuition lately? And the cost of living differential from your day and now – especially given the lack of averagte wage increases. Easy to say I did it. Get current, Doug and you will see different barriers. I did the same, but I’d not be able to acheive the same now…..and at least I recognize it. I hopeyou will as well.
  - Dan
    
    Tuition is part of a debt bubble fueled by government backed student loans, just like the housing bubble was.
    
    We have to stop chasing our tails, stop letting the financial charlatans play their pump and dump games, and stop letting politicians spend our hard earned money on paying those financiers back.
    
    We can’t just print money, build debt and promote inflation to pay the corrupt, with an air of defeatism.
    
    The tuition stuff is a financial scam, and the Universities aren’t going to say no to the easy money. Of course its regular American families who get hurt, and it will be interesting to see how the Tuition bubble bursts.
    - Still Here
      
      A trillion of student loan debt … interesting is an understatement.
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  “The average citizen in the U S can make it if they take advantage of the free education and work hard.”
  
  That “free” education that limited local and state tax revenues can no longer afford, and that will be undermined by loss of teacher benefits to attract qualified people?
  
  Working hard in jobs that have been outsourced or off-shored to cheap labor markets or replaced with automation?
  
  You’re pretending that we still have a functioning economy with decent education and good jobs. We don’t.
  
  Is not the right to make a living and have a future the most important civil right?
  - Zing
    
    You should know…you’re wealthy, successful, and powerful.
    - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
      
      I certainly am, because I don’t measure wealth in terms of money (earned about $10k last year and live in a hunting camp with no indoor plumbing), nor success in terms of climbing up the career ladder, nor power in terms of political influence.
      
      I have served the world, and that’s the only measure that matters.
      - Ggergmusic
        
        I lived like that for awhile but I find I serve the world better with indoor plumbing.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        Not very likely, since private septic and public waste water systems are principle sources of groundwater pollution, and incredibly wasteful of fresh water which is in short supply everywhere in the world.
        
        But don’t worry, we’ll all be living this way before long. We are in the death throws of modern civilization.
      - Gregg
        
        Lighten up dude, we’re fine.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        By “lighten up” you must mean stay in denial.
        
        It is a thermodynamic certainty that we are at the end of the fossil-fuel, mechanistic, scientific-reductionist, and dualistic paradigm of civilization.
        
        There are universal physical laws which can not be transgressed, specifically the Second Law of Thermodynamics (or the Law of Entropy).
        
        Anyone with half a brain (precious few in our society) understands that a paradigm based on endless growth is physically impossible on a finite planet and in a closed thermodynamic system which accumulates entropy (waste, heat, pollution, chaos, disorder) until resources are depleted and the production system becomes too large, complex and unwieldy to continue. It then begins to experience systemic collapse, such as the current global economic depression, as well as the simultaneous and unprecedented global ecological crises.
        
        We are at a turning point, and that is why forces of regression, such as the Tea Party and Scott Walker, are in the ascendancy, desperately trying to reverse the tide and hold onto what is slipping away.
        
        The only question that remains is what type of new society are we prepared to create that can weather the coming storms and offer a new story to live by.
      - Gregg
        
        Thermal Schmermal, we’re fine for another millennia or three. Relax, you’re not saving squat.
      - http://twitter.com/Somnonaut Claude Albertario
        
        Exactlyhow faris your headupyour ass?
      - notafeminista
        
        It’s “throes”.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        You missed the pun?
      - notafeminista
        
        Can’t miss what isn’t there.
- JohnGraff
  
  At least five large studies in recent years have found that vertical inter-generational mobility is lower in America than in comparable nations, belief in America as a land of opportunity not withstanding.
  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all
- Pointpanic
  
  That’s a fairy tale Doug that serves the corporate elites. Many skilled hard working Americans are out of work depsite the 50 year high in record profits for corporations. I humbly recommend Bill Moyers on teh Matter. But I can’t tell you how to readily reference it. Sorry.
Dan

Bill Black: Geithner Channels Greenspan and Airbrushes Fraud out of our Crises

http://www.capitalismwithoutfailure.com/2012/05/bill-black-geithner-channels-greenspan.html
Wavre

I wonder who really voted to keep Walker in office…It may be time for the people to strongly investigate the Election system in the US. How the votes are computed. There is just too many “victories” of corporated candidates with very questionable popularity.The media(corporate) just like with the tea party, create false impression of popularity.In addition let’s remember ballots “suddenly”discovered to tip elections in favor of the best funded candidates(usually the corporate one).Since Bush/Gore and citizen united, I have lost trust in the system.Corporations have become the government, what will stop them from controling the process, they control everything else. the system is giving us the choice between Obama or Romney while laughing all the way to the Bank.If France was the US Sarkozy will still be in power(although Holland is just as corporate)

Wake up America!
- Zing
  
  Line your hat and panties with tinfoil and hope for the best, buddy.
  - Wavre
    
    I wonder sometimes, how well some people know their US history,,,
    proofs of deception by government and Corporate manipulations are bearly hidden. But of course I’m just another conspiracy theorist…classic.
  - Still Here
    
    I think he’s fully lined!
- Pointpanic
  
  The Koch brothers and karl Rove bought it for him.
Zing

Has anyone pointed out yet today that there is no such thing as “the right to collective bargaining”?
- Zing
  
  Or the corollary that there is no right to “make a living and have a future” ?
  - Still Here
    
    You’ve certainly got a flare for the dramatic!
- Ggergmusic
  
  The next thing y’know you’ll be telling me health care is not a basic human right. Or the poor aren’t entitled to the rich’s money because Eisenhower built a road… or something.
  - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
    
    In response to your childish “Thermal Schmermal, we’re fine for another millennia or three” http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/06/06/wisconsins-recall-vote-fallout#comment-550390934
    
    The 22 authors of a June 6, 2012 Nature Journal review, “Approaching a state shift in Earth’s biosphere”, are biologists, ecologists, complex-systems theoreticians, geologists and paleontologists from the United States, Canada, South America and Europe.
    
    “There is a very high possibility that by the end of the century, the Earth is going to be a very different place.” – Anthony Barnosky, professor of integrative biology, University of California, Berkeley, and lead author of the study.
    
    “You can envision these state changes as a fast period of adjustment where we get pushed through the eye of the needle,” Barnosky said. “As we’re going through the eye of the needle, that’s when we see political strife, economic strife, war and famine.”
    
    “We really do have to be thinking about these global scale tipping points, because even the parts of Earth we are not messing with directly could be prone to some very major changes,” Barnosky said. “And the root cause, ultimately, is human population growth and how many resources each one of us uses.”
    
    “It really will be a new world, biologically. The data suggest that there will be a reduction in
    biodiversity and severe impacts on much of what we depend on to sustain our quality of life, including, for example, fisheries, agriculture, forest products and clean water. This could happen within just a few generations.” – Barnosky
    
    Coauthor Elizabeth Hadly from Stanford University said “We may already be past these tipping points in particular regions of the world.
    
    “Twenty years after the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, 17 ecologists are calling for renewed international efforts to curb the loss of Earth’s biological diversity. The researchers present their findings in this week’s issue of the journal Nature. The paper is a scientific consensus statement that summarizes evidence from more than 1,000 ecological studies over the last two decades.
    
    “Water purity, food production and air quality are easy to take for granted, but all are largely provided by communities of organisms,” said George Gilchrist, program director in the National Science Foundation’s Division of Environmental Biology, which funded the research.
    
    “This paper demonstrates that it is not simply the quantity of living things, but their species, genetic and trait biodiversity, that influences the delivery of many essential ‘ecosystem services.”
    
    Human actions are dismantling ecosystems, resulting in species extinctions at rates several orders of magnitude faster than observed in the fossil record.
    - Gregg
      
      Yadda yadda, they’ve always said such.
      - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
        
        Not in the world’s most respected peer-reviewed scientific journals.
- Zero
  
  Go read Adam Smith. Unions are vital for capitalism.
  
  Otherwise, go live in China–they share your sentiments.
  - Still Here
    
    Not public employee unions
    - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_CRTBVXTQSOPGLVECV6HA3NYJZA MoniqueDC
      
      The solution for Public Employee Unions is to take the conflict out of the negotiation. Rather than have the elected officials (whom some perceive to “buy” votes or repay contribution favors) be the negotiating party with the public unions, have an appointed panel (balanced for diversity and including some qualified tax payers) who handle the negotiations with the union. This would remove the conflict with elected officials but still allow the public employee to have collective bargaining. As poorly managed as most governmental organizations are at the state and local level, just imagine how much worse it would be if your could not get competent people to take those jobs.
- JohnGraff
  
  “The importance of workers’ rights to freedom of association, to organize and to bargain collectively with their employers and to be treated with dignity and respect has been recognized internationally for years.
  
  • The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, unanimously adopted by the United Nations in 1948, states that ‘everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions.’
  
  • The United Nations Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, ratified by the United States in 1992, affirms the right to freedom of association, including the right to form and join unions.
  
  • Organized religions, including the National Council of Churches, representing 35 Anglican, Orthodox, Protestant, historic African-American and Peace churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Central Conference of American Rabbis, hold the right to form and join unions as fundamental to their faiths.”
  
  http://stopthelies.afscme.org/get-the-facts/document/AFSCME-FactSheet_CollectiveBargaining.pdf
  - http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
    
    Everyone still has that right. They can form a union, but just can’t do anything other than collect dues and give out membership cards.
    
    Only corporate “persons” have the right to act in the economy or electoral politics. All other persons are deemed unessential, disposable and irrelevant.
- Big Daddy-O
  
  Absolutely Correct. The State is Sovereign. The reason the state is sovereign is because it represents WE THE PEOPLE. As Such, WE THE PEOPLE shall determine what compensation state workers, as well as federal workers recieve absolutely. Tax payers, a.k.a. We The People have the sovereign power ,through our sovereign government to make these determinations,epsecially when the pay government workers recieve provides them with a higher standard of living as a group than the WE THE PEOPLE have.
  
  This is to say,WE THE PEOPLE, the hard working tax payers, who’s blood,sweat,tears,and sacrifice provide the funds,WE THE PEOPLE, upon who’s back the bill is paid, shall be the sole and final arbiter on who gets paid what and how much. Dont Like it? Its a free country, seek employment elsewhere or start your own buisness. Its that simple and as the election in Wisconsin has demonstrated with exceptional clarity, its the will of WE THE PEOPLE.
Roy Mac

Yet another worthless program hosted by Jacki Lyden. She can’t lead a discussion. How does she continue to get these assingments??
- Still Here
  
  You prefer Tom who can’t contain his bias and general snarkiness.
Billkunze

This has to be the worst ‘on point’ program I’ve ever listened to. Do you think you could have put together a bigger cheerleading crew for Scott Walker than you had on this show. A great topic. An awful group to talk about it.
- http://riversong.wordpress.com/ Robert Riversong
  
  What do you mean? We all know that NPR is the last bastion of liberal bias. You must have missed something.
- Still Here
  
  First of all Barrett was indefensible, as are public employee unions. However, Dresser and the guy from the Journal did a nice job carrying the torch. I think you’re just disappointed the host wasn’t as incredibly biased as usual.
- Whotrustedus
  
  I listened the recall discussion first on Diane Rehm & then On Point. Rehm and her guests were way biased on the other side. Listening to them both one after the other gave me a broad view
  - Pointpanic
    
    That may be true Who. But both shows as public radio outlets have an obligation to live up to nPR claims of “independece” and “bring to the table all sides of an issue.”You shouldn’t have to listen to two separate programs for a broad view.
- Pointpanic
  
  That’s “public” radio for you these days, Bilkunze. Actually,I think NPR= “National ‘Publican Radio”
JohnGraff

It doesn’t bode well for the future of the US that the left is too weak and divided to topple a tin-pot dictator like Walker.
- Azra
  
  No, it doesn’t.
- Gregg
  
  And all the legislature could do was leave town. Then they challenged it in court, they tried to impeach a judge. They tried to recall Senators. The unions spent millions. They couldn’t even unseat the Lt. Governor. It’s a resounding defeat.
Romney Bin Bush

Score one for the rich! Next, we will go after the remaining unions in private business! Yahoo! And now, time for a tax cut…
- Billybill1
  
  And score one for the taxpayers!
Rlogger10

What-me worry. We here in Wisconsin have our Packers,plenty of Walmart stores, Miss America, and rivers of great beer. So what’s the fuss? Fretting about politics should be reserved for the coasties.On Wisconsin
WI-CPA

I’m a CPA and I’ve prepared thousands of tax returns over the past 20+ years in Wisconsin (which, by the way, has consistently been one of the nation’s highest taxing states per capita). Here’s the reality I’ve actually seen reflected on my clients’ tax returns during the most recent decade or more and how it relates to the attempted recall.
The overwhelming majority of private sector workers have had their pay be flat or cut; contributions to their health insurance increased to 50% (many had it cut altogether); and retirement contributions eliminated or severely curtailed. Also, in 2008, most lost about 40% of their retirement savings to the market collapse. Most retire or plan to retire between 65 and 70 years old.Meanwhile, all of my public sector clients have continued to enjoy modest pay increases, very slight increases in their out-of-pocket health care costs and completely stable retirement benefits. Most retire or plan to retire between 55 and 60 years old.These continued and growing disparities are at the core of the taxpayer discontent here and, I believe, the essence of why Governor Scott Walker won by an even larger margin in the recall effort than he did in the 2010 election.Sure, there are other reasons too. But I believe that the large majority of Wisconsin residents are really, really happy that someone in our political leadership finally had the guts to take the necessary actions to begin to reverse this trend.

For the record, I consider myself neither Democrat nor Republican and will very likely vote for Obama in the next election, though I voted for John McCain in the last presidential election.
- JGC
  
  Benefits seem to be a flashpoint for everyone. From what I have read, health benefits were first introduced by the private sector to entice returning U.S. WWII veterans to come work at their businesses. The post-WWII Europeans constructed their healthcare systems to be part of an overall welfare state (welfare in the good sense of the word, meaning to the benefit of all) rather than to be tied to a particular industry or job. So it all started with the U.S. private sector getting the upper hand in benefits, then the public sector playing catch-up, and now we are all trying to go back to those pre-WWII days of no benefits. For anyone.
  
  I heard on VPR that Vermont is trying to fashion a single-payer system, so it will be interesting to see how that turns out. I have to agree with the Vermont governor, why should your healthcare be tied to your job? Or to your position within a company? Why should healthcare be the responsibility of any business owner? Cut that tie, and just see how free people are to pursue their goals, their dreams.
  - Labored
    
    Employers did NOT start to entice returning veterans post WWII with health care.
    
    There was a wage freeze on “for the duration,” and unions negotiated health care coverage as a fringe benefit to get around the wage freeze.
    
    Once a critical mass of employers with it was established, other non-union employers began offering it as well.
    
    Your analysis is an example of two things: first, the history of how the employer/employee relationship was humanized over time is NOT being taught anywhere; and second, the power of union contracts to have both a “spill over” and “trickle up” effect on non-represented employees is NOT appreciated.
    
    I will agree that there may be an “envy” thing at work, but I’d argue that unions have historically provided benchmark contracts that other aspired to in the past, now there is a push by everyone but the 1% to lower everyone to the same set of miserable conditions creating (or perpetuating) a race to the bottom.
Michael

As a teacher I can see this is one more blow in a nation wide fight to keep public education. It is very discouraging to see the public attacking us over and over, and not backing us in this fight.

I do have a question let us say the Repbulicans get there way and dismantle public education, what will you the public do next? Attend private schools with vouchers; that is until thirty years from now when that becomes an unwanted tax and then what? We become the first western nation to not educated our children except for the wealthy. You people are fools and deserve the goverment you elect.
- MadisonSpock
  
  Education needs to change. Schools and teachers need to be accountable. Competition needs to be encouraged. The public monopoly on education is a severe failure. I understand your concern, but you are entirely wrong. Societies, like Wisconsin, believe that education is a necessary component for a successful adult. Your demand is that it must be through a government school. Everyone else demands a successful adult. Your goal is misguided and self serving.
  - Michael
    
    First of all where is your proof that the Public Schools are a failure, with the exceptions of intercity schools the Public Education Student is very educated. I myself am a public educated student through both k-12 and public universities (University of Missouri) my children are public educated with one also attending a public college. I do not see failure. I see an education, I and my family would have never had without government help. In fact there are four generations of Americans that benefited from public education in my family, without it we would not be where we are today. To say that government education is a failure is just one more profaned message of the Republican Party to lower taxes by killing a very beneficial public service.
    Also for the record I am a special education teacher and have to tell you that public schools are by law providing services to my students by IDEA (Individuals with Disability Education Act) and in some cases under the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) which is still being defined in courts today. In the private schools while IDEA may not be enforceable; the ADA will be, so each private school will have to reinvent the wheel to provide services to students with special needs. At present in some cases public schools are providing these services to students as it is mandated by law since their parents are taxpaying citizens. You would have known this if you were in education, but since you are not you have no clue what you are talking about. Once again I state the following you people are fools and deserve the government you elect.
http://buysteroidsuk.co/ Buy Steroids

not sure he deserved that victory.

ONPOINT

TODAY

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Oklahoma’s monster tornado. The president on counterterrorism. A vote on gay Boy Scouts.

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On Point Blog

Summer’s On Its Way: Exercise Questions Answered

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Is America Coming Undone?

Thursday, May 23, 2013

New Yorker writer George Packer says yes. He reflected on the nation’s core institutions failing the American people.

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WIRED’s Bill Wasik On The Henry Fords Of Today

Wednesday, May 22, 2013

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