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Zimmerman Charged With Murder

The special prosecutor makes her decision in the Trayvon Martin case. 2nd-Degree murder charges.

George Zimmerman, center, stands with his attorney Mark O'Mara, right, and a Seminole County Deputy during a court hearing Thursday April 12, 2012, in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of the 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. (AP)

George Zimmerman, center, stands with his attorney Mark O'Mara, right, and a Seminole County Deputy during a court hearing Thursday April 12, 2012, in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in the shooting death of the 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. (AP)

It took six weeks and more, a pair of outspoken, grieving parents, a special prosecutor, and a national outcry over race and justice like we have not seen in this country in years.

But last night in the Trayvon Martin case, the charge came down against self-appointed neighborhood watchman and gunman George Zimmerman:  murder in the second degree in the death of Trayvon  Martin.

Now, said Angela Corey, the prosecutor, we go to the facts and evidence.  But that won’t be easy, given how George Zimmerman first walked away.

This hour, On Point:  a murder charge in the Trayvon Martin case.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

David Adams, Miami bureau chief for Thomson Reuters.

Sen. Chris Smith, Democratic Florida state senator representing Fort Lauderdale. He’s leading a task force to investigate the state’s controversial “Stand Your Ground” law.

Monique Haughton Worrell, law professor at the University of Florida. She practiced law in Sanford, Florida.

Hugh Mundy, law professor at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale.

From Tom’s Reading List

Orlando Sentinel “Late Wednesday night, Zimmerman — his head covered — was ushered out of a black SUV and into the Seminole County Jail, just hours after special prosecutor Angela Corey announced a second-degree murder charge against him.”

The Root “The court of public opinion has been working overtime since this tragic story flooded the national consciousness last month. That there are so many questions still unanswered have given some license to be judge and jury for both Trayvon and  Zimmerman.”

The New York Times “George Zimmerman, 28, a neighborhood watch coordinator, says that he shot Trayvon Martin, 17, in self-defense after a life-or-death struggle on the night of Feb. 26. Official accounts and interviews with those involved in the case offer a glimpse into what may have happened.”

 

 

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  • http://twitter.com/TweeterSmart b smart

    i hope they issue a gag order and limit cameras.  we need to stop making every court case reality tv.   

    • AC

      i was about to ask if we would be allowed audio or visual access to it…:(
      i would like to hear it for myself.

      • http://twitter.com/TweeterSmart b smart

        it would be one thing to “hear” the case. but if cameras have access we will have  to listen to every commentator in the US give there opinions everyday until it’s over.  just imagine, it’s bad now it would be nuclear at that point.

  • Anonymous

    “Stand Your Ground”, or, as I think they should be called, “MAKE MY DAY” laws are an answer to a problem that didn’t exist:

    The difficulty with Stand Your Ground laws is that they are based on the assumption that neither the common law nor modern criminal codes adequately protect ordinary citizens who are under attack. This assumption is simply wrong. Contemporary criminal statutes express a nuanced and sophisticated concept of defensive force derived from hundreds of years of common law precedent. These laws adequately protect both the innocent and those who mistakenly believe they are under attack while permitting the criminal prosecution of trigger-happy cowboys. 

    To claim self defense or defense of others under current statutes, a person under attack (the defender) needs to raise credible proof: first, that he reasonably thought he (or another) was unlawfully under imminent deadly attack by another; second, that each forceful action, including deadly force, he took in response to this attack was necessary to stop the attack; and third, that he acted solely with the intent to thwart the unlawful attack. In many jurisdictions, the defender must withdraw from the fight before using deadly force if he can do so in complete safety. If the defender meets these requirements, he will be found not guilty. Furthermore, even if the defender is completely wrong about the situation but his mistake is reasonable about either the imminence of the deadly attack or the necessity of his forceful response, he still gets the full defense and will be found not guilty.

    This is and has been the law in the Anglo-American system for over 400 years. As a result, these sorts of cases are almost never charged by prosecutors with limited state resources. In my home state of Wisconsin, a large group of criminal prosecutors, defense attorneys and judges could come up with only one case in which any homeowner was prosecuted when he shot someone who entered his home illegally. That conviction was later overturned.

    By contrast, under the Stand Your Ground law, there is never a requirement that one withdraw or retreat before using deadly force, and the requirements of reasonableness are attenuated or essentially removed because the other witness is dead, and the defender may shade the truth. Thus, Stand Your Ground laws may provide a rock-solid defense to paranoid or dangerously aggressive people who are armed with deadly force.

    Current law protects those using defensive force, including deadly force, while insisting that they act reasonably. Stand Your Ground laws upset that careful balance by removing the requirement that the defender act reasonably. For that reason, these laws should be repealed.

    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/stand-your-ground-laws-are-unnecessary

    • Hidan

       There were a report that drug dealers were using “Stand Your Ground” to legally take out there enemies

      • Anonymous

        America Beyond Thunderdome:

        Two gangs enter, one gang leaves.

  • Victor Vito

    Here is my plea offer…  Life in prison without parole for Zimmerman, and I never have to hear about this story again.

    • Anonymous

      Why don’t you just close your eyes and put your hands over your ears? Problem solved.

    • Modavations

      And if Mr.Zimmerman is innocent????

      • Anonymous

        Then the jury will find him innocent. But it is not the job/duty of the police and/or a “prosecutor” talking with the “killer’s” relative to decide innocence or guilt at the scene of the crime.

  • aj

    “All we ever asked for was a arrest, nothing more nothing lessI just want to speak from my heart to your heart because a
    heart has no color its not black its not white there all red.”
     
    -Sybrina Fulton (Wenesday’s press conference)
     
    Then she began to cry.Sybrina Fulton has moved and inspired so many,with her true grace and dignity. Despite having her ‘heart’ broken, she has been forced to struggle mightily for even minimal justice from an discriminatory and irresponsible Sanford law enforcement.
     
    Trayvon Benjamin Martin would be so proud of his lovely Mother. Take some time now, to mourn Miss Fulton. You’ve earned it Ma’am.

    • aj

      ‘Early evening, February 26Shot rings out in the Seminole skyFree at last, they took your lifeThey could not take your pride.

      In the name of love!What more in the name of love?’

      Let freedom ring ya’ll. ‘Hope’ is but a moment. Do you remember this one?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwCp0QSiwEc&feature=related
      (killer part at 3minutes and 50seconds)

      • Still Here

        Bono is a pathetic joke

  • Anonymous

    Mayor Bloomberg comes up big against “Make My Day” laws:

    New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg called for the nationwide reform or repeal of Stand Your Ground laws today at an event in Washington D.C. to announce the Second Chance on Shoot First campaign. 

    “In reality the NRA’s leaders weren’t interested in public safety. They were interested in promoting a culture where people take the law into their own hands and face no consequences for it. Let’s call that by its real name, vigilantism,” he said. ”The NRA should be ashamed of themselves. This has nothing to do with gun owners rights. It has nothing to do with the second amendment.” 

    Bloomberg, who was joined by civil rights leaders and Florida State Sen. Chris Smith, said the laws had undermined the justice system and have done harm to public safety.“They justify civilian gunplay and invite vigilante justice and retribution with disastrous results,” he said.

    Bloomberg was also joined by former Army Major Jon Soltz, the chairman ofVoteVets.org. Soltz said that U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan had a higher standard of when to use deadly force than Americans who lived  in states with Stand Your Ground laws.

    “There is no shoot first law for our troops in Iraq or Afghanistan. We cannot just shoot somebody because they have a hijab on in Iraq and kill them and say we’re scared. Everybody in Iraq has a weapon and all U.S. forces are always scared,” Soltz said. 

    ”This is a legal protection in these states that is actually afforded to Mr. Zimmerman that is not afforded to our troops in combat. Unless I’m wrong I didn’t think Florida was a war zone.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/bloomberg-blasts-nra-over-stand-your-ground-laws/

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Mayor Bloomberg, rich enough to have 24/7 armed security, in addition to the armed security of the mayor’s office, would see it different, if he had different circumstances? 
         If you try to run, or back away from someone threatening you, or bullying you, they get WORSE!
         Standing your ground, often is the only way to prevent WORSE treatment, including rape, abuse, and death.

  • HIdan

    finally

  • Anonymous

    The Radical Supreme Court: Turning America into a banana republic one decision at a time. 

    In Bush v. Gore the  court picked a president.

    In Citizens United it gave a handful of the country’s richest the right to decide elections.

    In the HealthCare case it seems poised to deny millions healthcare.

    Then there are the guns. 

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”-Second Amendment 

    For a long time, the Court upheld gun control laws on the basis that: “The Second Amendment must be interpreted and applied with a view to its purpose of rendering effective the Militia.”-U.S. v. Miller (1939).

    However, since this right wing court started imposing its radical agenda, it has struck down gun control laws and thrown out the “well regulated militia” clause:

    “The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia”-District of Columbia v. Heller (2008).

    It was another 5-4 decision, written by Scalia, joined by Roberts, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito.

    In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens stated that the court’s judgment was “a strained and unpersuasive reading” which overturned longstanding precedent, and that the court had “bestowed a dramatic upheaval in the law”. 

    Justice Stevens’ dissent was joined by Justices David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer.

    • Anonymous

      It’s off-topic, so i won’t go on about it, but it was mentioned, so…

      The ACA hardly ensures that citizens will get “healthcare.”It requires individuals to buy private (crappy) products from private entities, thus guaranteeing that insurance companies will have huge financial resources to fight any effort at real reform (single payer) in the future. There’s a reason that most of the “health care” industry support this legislation. Happy to be thrown a bone or two, the Obamabots all lined up behind this horrid legislation, which provides no effective cost controls over what insurance companies can charge. And they will still find ways to withhold, limit, or deny coverage in whatever ways they can.

      Much as i disagree with what a lot of this S.C. does, i hope they strike down the individual mandate.

      • Anonymous

        I, too would prefer medicare for all, but that was not possible.

        If this law gets struck down, people will lose coverage and die.

        That’s a fact.

        So call me an Obamabot. I can live with that.

        Because so can she:

        ObamaCare Saved My Life

        If you are fortunate enough to still be employed and have insurance through your employers, you may feel insulated from the sufferings of people like me right now. But things can change abruptly. If you still have a good job with insurance, that doesn’t mean that you’re better than me, more deserving than me or smarter than me. It just means that you are luckier. And access to healthcare shouldn’t depend on luck.

        Fortunately for me, I’ve been saved by the federal government’s Pre-existing Condition Insurance Plan, something I had never heard of before needing it. It’s part of President Obama’s healthcare plan, one of the things that has already kicked in, and it guarantees access to insurance for U.S. citizens with preexisting conditions who have been uninsured for at least six months. The application was short, the premiums are affordable, and I have found the people who work in the administration office to be quite compassionate (nothing like the people I have dealt with over the years at other insurance companies.) It’s not perfect, of course, and it still leaves many people in need out in the cold. But it’s a start, and for me it’s been a lifesaver — perhaps literally.

        Which brings me to my apology. I was pretty mad at Obama before I learned about this new insurance plan. I had changed my registration from Democrat to Independent, and I had blacked out the top of the “h” on my Obama bumper sticker, so that it read, “Got nope” instead of “got hope.” I felt like he had let down the struggling middle class. My son and I had campaigned for him, but since he took office, we felt he had let us down.

        So this is my public apology.
        http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2011/12/06/obamacare-saved-my-life/

        • Anonymous

          Sure there are going to be individual cases where this bill does some good things, but it’s at a much larger cost.

          One could imagine laws which would require everyone to have none-slip bath mats and random, unannounced inspections from the Bureau of Bathroom Compliance to check your tub and issue fines for lack of proper equipment. Surely, many injuries would be prevented.

          Or, the Diet Inspector could come and check your refrigerator to be sure you were only buying low-fat meat. (Or, since we know that meat eating causes increases in certain diseases, maybe people shouldn’t be allowed to purchase and eat any meat at all.)

          For me, there can be no justification for  making people, under penalty of law, to purchase products from private businesses.

          Medicare for all wasn’t possible, in large part, because Obama failed to fight for it.

        • denis

          It does not matter if you are conservative or liberal – for or against ACA you should be alarmed by our “strict constructionist” Supreme Court justice say it would be cruel and unusual punishment to read the law he is going to pass judgment upon. [Incidentally according to an article in Forbes Magazine and other sources the precedent for this law and the mandate portion goes back to 1798 - An act for the relief of sick and disabled seamen passed by congress and signed by President Adams.]
           
          If you agree with me please sign my petition at: http://signon.org/sign/sanction-justice-scalia?source=c.em.mt&r_by=4030203

        • Terry Tree Tree

          I’m happy that this saved your life. 
              DEATH PANEL insurance executives would have found a way to deny care, even if you had unpaid your bill by 1 cent!  All for a bigger yacht?

      • Buddhaclown

        ACA is socialism, make no mistake about it. But it is socialism done profoundly right, so right in fact that people like yourself completely miss the fact that it accomplishes everything socialist systems like single payer are meant to accomplish, without undoing the private market (and creating complete economic chaos). Its brilliant . . . I assume that’s why so few people like it! Left wingers hate that it uses private companies, god forbid! And right wingers hate that it redistributes wealth. 

  • Joe in JP

    This law, which I call the “Make My Day” law, effectively deputizes every citizen who lawfully carries a gun. That’s great, if we’re going to expand the police force, but let’s make sure that this enormous new police force is properly trained and qualified to be using deadly force. Psych evaluations, training, and background checks for every person with a concealed carry permit. 

  • Anonymous

    People keep mentioning the “stand your ground” law, but it’s not clear that it could/should have any application or relevance to this case.

    • Anonymous

      It could have applied if Trayvon had shot Zimmerman for stalking him.

      Though I suspect if the police had found a young black kid standing over Zimmerman with a smoking gun claiming self defense they would have found a way to charge him.

      • Anonymous

        No it couldn’t. Have you bothered to read it? It was designed for home protection from intruders.

        “The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and…”

        • Anonymous

          Yes, I have read it. Have you? 

          The part you quoted from is Ch. 776.013 (1)(a). There’s more:

          (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. 

          http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html 

          I’m curious as to where you got your misinformation and why you believed it without checking for yourself?

          • Anonymous

            I looked at the actual text of the article, but had overlooked #3. My apologies. Not fully awake yet.

            It’s odd that the law spends so much time dealing with dwellings and the details of the circumstances that might apply there, but leaves the “any other place” section so open ended.

          • Anonymous

            Many states have so-called “Castle” doctrine laws, that apply only to dwellings. Some, like Florida, go further with their “stand your ground” laws that apply to any location:

            This sharp turn in American law — expanding the right to defend one’s home from attack into a more general right to meet force with force in any public place — began in Florida in 2005 and has spread to more than 30 other states as a result of a campaign by the National Rifle Association and a corporate-backed group called theAmerican Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which promotes conservative bills. 

            http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/stand-your-ground-laws-coincide-with-jump-in-justifiable-homicide-cases/2012/04/07/gIQAS2v51S_story.html 

  • Jonathan Hudgins

    Question: Was George Zimmerman aware of the “Stand Your Ground” law?  What is the likelihood that the law emboldened him?  I’ve heard reports that some perpetrators in Florida have cited the law to arresting policemen.

  • Anonymous

    Revised statement: I just read the statute (highly recommended); it has no applicability in this case.

    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

    • Anonymous

      This was meant to be a reply to my own post a few minute ago. Disqus acting glitchy again.

  • Gregg

    Now that we have a full fledged race war complete with a bounty and several revenge beatings, it’s good to see no mention of race in the post or thus far in the comments.

    • Patrik

      Its ok, Im here now.  : D

    • Anonymous

      I am sure now that you have brought it up you will have more to say.

      More “Br’er Rabbit” syndrome.

  • BEING OBJECTIVE

    What George Zimmerman did was quite possibly an  overreaction to the situation he was faced with.  I will withhold judgment until the facts come out rather than assume that he is guilty until proven innocent.

    But racists like Al Sharpton, who ignore black on black violence and instead look for situations where they can throw Molotov cocktails and then refuse to later apologize when they make a gross error due to their “shoot first and ask questions later” approach (similar to what George Zimmerman might have done) as in the case of Tawana Brawley hurts rather than helps his cause.  And people who refuse to see his outbursts as opportunism, race baiting, and character assasination are just as guilty as the racism that he is accusing George Zimmerman of.

    • Gregg

      That’s righteous.

    • Patrik

      I agree Being.  I cringe when Rev. Sharpton begins to speak, I know he means well but he goes a bit far with the sermon.  He should now be a voice of reason and calm for the community and not stoke the fire.  That being said, I understand where he is coming from, it’s hard after a people have been oppressed for a couple of hundred years.  Everyone keeps saying let the system work, the system failed 46 days ago… 

    • Anonymous

      Zimmerman “quite possibly overreacted” when he stalked Martin, got out of his vehicle, and confronted Martin with a loaded weapon.

      If he hadn’t “quite possibly overreacted” by assuming Martin was a criminal and pretended he was Dirty Harry, Martin would be alive and Zimmerman would be free.

      As for Sharpton, it’s ridiculous to equate his bloviating with Zimmerman’s act of killing an unarmed teenager. 

      • BEING OBJECTIVE

        I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were the individual whose reputation was destroyed by a racist like Al Sharpton.  When Sharpton’s race baiting stirs up a crowd that then carries out violence, it is exactly the same behavior that Zimmerman is accused of engaging in.

        • Anonymous

          And I wonder if you would feel the same way if your unarmed teenager was shot to death while walking home from the 7-eleven with an iced tea and a bag of Skittles.

          BTW, you do realize that you just accused Sharpton of complicity in acts of violence? 

          As you seem so concerned about reputations, I challenge you to support your accusation with an actual case of violence that was caused by Sharpton.

          And Sharpton getting stabbed in the chest by a drunken counter protester in 1991 doesn’t count:

          “Witnesses said the assailant, who had apparently mingled with a crowd of nearly 200 black and white protesters, stepped out of a row of marchers lining up in the schoolyard of Public School 205 and strode toward Mr. Sharpton as he stepped from a car. It was the same yard where the white mob gathered before the murder of Mr. Hawkins.Without saying a word, the assailant drew a steak knife with a black plastic handle and a five-inch blade from his navy blue Yankees jacket and plunged it downward into Mr. Sharpton’s upper left chest.”

          http://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/13/nyregion/sharpton-is-stabbed-at-bensonhurst-protest.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

      • Anonymous

        I will never forget my disgust (and worse) at Sharpton’s behavior in the Tawana Brawley case and his refusal to apologize to the NY policeman he so wildly and falsely defamed.

        I haven’t seen that much of Sharpton’s statements on this, but those I have seen are confined to bringing out the way the police (and other Sanford officials, etc.) have worse than mishandled the case. And further, talk of Sharpton is a red herring to divert attention from what should be the focus here: the possible ignoring of the law because the perpetrator may have had “pull” while the victim was a probable/possible object of stereotyping.

    • TFRX

      One doesn’t have to go any farther than Comedy Central to find out how many anti-black-on-black violence rallies that Al Sharpton and such have appeared at.

  • Patrik

    Finally.  After close to 2.5 M sigs on Change.org they finally did what they were supposed to do intially and that is at least take him into custody. 

    This really raises a lot of questions about the existing institutional racism in the south.  It’s one thing to have a small group of racists running around in your region, they can be managed.  When a whole public system is involved, that is another beast. 

    • Gregg

      That’s sick.

    • Still Here

      How many signatures do we need to hang him before trial?

      • Patrik

        There won’t be any sigs for that, the people just needed him to at least be detained as law enforcement should have done intially at the scene, guilty or not.  He’s now at the mercy of the justice system.

        • Still Here

          Gotcha, we’re all constitutional law experts.  Who else can we get changedotorg to arrest and maybe beat a confession out of?

          • Anonymous

            I would oppose the extraction of confessions by physical means for anyone.

            But it has been claimed that the police officer that decided at the scene to not charge Zimmerman also worked to get no charges for his son who had beaten a defenseless homeless man.

            Also, an investigating officer DID want to charge Zimmerman, as he felt that there was probable cause, which is the responsibility of the police (not deciding guilt or innocence, as so many seem to think).

          • TFRX

            Zimmerman’s father is a judge, right?

            The Sanford PD have done nothing to fight any of the stereotypes about corrupt law enforcement acting in a bubble.

          • Anonymous

            The judge is an uncle or someone related to his grandfather. I believe.

  • Modavations

    Present the evidence,let the jurors decide.I have faith

    • Anonymous

      The main problem, that caused all the hullabaloo, was that the police did not charge him when an investigating officer recommended that so the facts as best can be determined would get to a jury.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    iOnePoint:

    Ending racial discrimination in jury selection can be accomplished only by eliminating peremptory challenges entirely by T. Marshall

  • Anonymous

    I just heard a story today on WBUR about 17 year old Joe Donovan, now 37, sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for the murder of Yngve Raustei. He got into a fight and puched Yngve. A 15 year old in his posse stabbed Yngve in cold blood. Joe didn’t even know it had happened. 20 years later Joe’s still in jail for throwing a punch.

    In contrast Zimmerman was armed and dangerous, but in today’s hate mongering circus has people defending him with next to no knowledge of the facts in the case.

    What has happened to our legal system under ALEC? Who are these lunatics who cheered for these stand your ground law’s? Sadly, more blood will be on their hands.

    Be careful who you cheer for, the laws they rewrite may come back to haunt you.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Why did they in prison Donovan for life if he didn’t stabbed the foreign student.

    • Modavations

      What up Black Fang,but your daddy please

      • Terry Tree Tree

        ??

  • Modavations

    The Ghettos of America are as bad as Sana,as bad as Baghdad.Two weeks ago 49 were shot in Chicago in one weekend.Every Ghetto is controlled by the Democrats.The malevolence is the fatherless family,the denial of school vouchers.The Zimmerman-Trayvon story pales compared to holocaust Dem.Social Policy has visited on Americas poor

    • Hidan

      Nothing to see hear folks, it’s just mugshot moda attacking blacks again. See folks Republicans are sooooo Bad about defending/protecting or enacting laws that protect blacks that the only people to turn to are the democrats. Since there decided to go with the Southern Strategy that plays on poor whites fears of poor blacks. 

      According to mugshot moda there would be less poor. Just look what happen during the Bush years and how the  gap between rich and poor? I sure there’s tons of evidences in those years on how it got smaller?

      • Anonymous

        Just ignore the Modatroll. Just the same stuff over and over and over. He thrives on attention. Don’t give it to him.

      • Modavations

        The Republicans freed the slaves from the Democrats.The Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Acts(30% more Reps. voted for them,then the Dems),even though the Dems filibustetred.Dwight Eisenhower,Rep.President,liberated Little Rock.Robert Byrd Democrat,was the last of the real KKK.Republicans don’t see color other then green(moolah).We want everyone to get rich,so you’ll by our products.Our god is Adam Smith and the Invisible hand.We want Peace of Earth and everyones pockets stuffed with cash.As Bob Dylan said in Hurricane…..Can we stop the warring and go back to work(paraphrase)

        • Terry Tree Tree

          It’s only been over 70 years since the Democrat Party took up the load to help minorities and women?   Moda, who consults his guppy for wisdom, is a little behind the times?
             “See the pretty rock, give me money, for the pretty rock.”, is all the  skill and training required?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Remember the majority of the population not only in Chicago or East LA but around the world are Poor.

      • Gregg

         That’s the way Democrats want to keep them.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          No that’s how the governments all over the world wants to keep them.

          • Gregg

            An argument could be made.

      • Modavations

        Give them back their daddies and afford a school voucher.Most of America’s rich are self made men,white,brown,black…..Even a poor Martian can make it in America.In America we provide Level Playing fields,not level outcomes.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ‘Daddies’, white, black, and ALL others, choose to leave!  I have worked, and talked, with MANY dead-beat ‘dads’, that bragged about NOT paying their child-support, but spending it at strip-bars!
             If you FORCED these low-life to stay with their families, there would be a HUGE rise in deaths and abuse cases!
             ‘Compassionate’, ‘Christian’, ‘Conservatives’, have defrauded enough money to provide ‘vouchers’ to EVERY under-priviledged child!  Where’s their ‘compassion’?

        • ana

          Level playing field?  Not so much anymore with the outsourcing of the jobs by which the lower class could move up despite lack of post high school education.  Many minorities  and whites achieved middle class status working in factories, construction, etc.   If only lofe were all so simple  as Moda insists.
          After looking at the unemployment figures, let’s ask  “who are the unemployed and why”?
          Yes, there are true non-achievers,  but there are those who still those who grab a chance  even as the Re pubs want to seriously cut job training funds and the rich corporations still want   the government to do the heavy lifting in job training. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    A person who claim “The Stand Your Ground Law” after that person killed someone should always be arrested.

    To further nvestigate and justify the killing if it was
    self-defense or not.

    • Modavations

      Absolutely.I think most Police involved in a shooting have to surrender their guns and go on leave until an adjudication

      • Terry Tree Tree

        This is what I have been advocating.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          with a Blue Code of Silence? it is hard

        • Modavations

          who cares

  • Modavations

    I know many of you guys are ham strung by your Public School Educations,but a pillar of America is the “presumption of innocence”.

    • Joe in JP

      sure, by the justice system.  There is, however, that tricky first amendment thing that allows for freedom of speech and the press.  I know, it’s a pain when it doesn’t go your way, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles, chief.

      • Gregg

        So the President of the United States should weigh in and the Attorney General should ignore bounties? “Presumption of innocence” is a “pain”?

        • Anonymous

          By the power of their governmental positions the President and the Attorney General do have to be careful not to influence those who will be performing the task of judging the guilt or innocence of any person suspected of committing a crime.

          However, when an issue such as the police handling of the Trayvon Martin case the President and/or the Attorney General can and should, when the pubic discussion rises to levels even less than than in that case, discuss the background issues in a non-prejudicial way, as WAS done at this time.

      • Kevin

         lol! OMG!

      • Modavations

        I have no interest in this case.I stand for presumption of innocence.Go reread To Kill A Mockingbird

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Well, he sort of got it right-er, this time.

    • Irv

      We were fighting for action to be taken to determine if he was innocent. Protocol dictates that, under these circumstances, you arrest the innocent until proven guilty, and you take less than 6 weeks to make that arrest.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with the charging of Zimmerman, but I really think SYG protects him (not that I’m an advocate).  I don’t think the law speaks to how the person got into the situation where they felt they had to stand their ground and defend themselves.  I know one case has been mentioned where a guy was being harassed at a park, went home and got his gun, went back to the park and when the harassment started again shot the harasser.

    What galls me even more is that the law prevents civil suits as well.  If Zimmerman gets off, he could (rightly in my opinion) be sued for wrongful death for creating the situation that resulted in Martin’s killing, but the law prevents that.

    I really think that having created laws that allow just about anyone to carry a gun anywhere anytime, they came up with SYG to actually allow you to use your gun.  After all, what good is it to be packing if you can do anything with it

  • Gregg

    Al Sharpton was praised by AG Holder for his race-baiting efforts. How does Holder still have a job? He’s completely incompetent.

    • Still Here

      You don’t want to ask that question, really.

      • Gregg

        I asked it, I’ll answer it: Holder has his job because he is black. This is his agenda as was made clear in the voter intimidation case. He loves Sharpton’s race baiting and said so. “Fast and Furious” is a criminal abomination against the Constitution. He was hired to carry out this divisive agenda. It’s payback.

        • Anonymous

          Link us to the statement(s) by Sharpton that you consider “race-baiting,” or at least give us ‘your’ definition.

    • Joe in JP

      lol and I’ll bet you don’t even see race, do you?  you’re utterly blind to it, I’ll wager.  Awesome.

      • Kevin

         lol, Joe in JP. LOL!

        Awesome comments, dude. LOL!

  • Kevin

    Tom, could you ask your guests if they would be similarly outraged had the shooter been another African-American teenager? In other words, is it only outrageous and noteworthy when a non-African-American kills a young black man? Or is it somehow worse when the shooter is white, Hispanic, Asian, etc?  

    I wonder how many young black men have been gunned down in this country by other young black men since Trayvon Martin’s death. Where are the protests and outrage over those deaths?

    • Gregg

      Good point. In my view a tragic murder is a tragic murder. I see no reason to inject race.

    • Anonymous

       Why do so many people like you insist on missing the point? The outrage here is over the fact that Zimmerman was not arrested. Get it? NO ARREST MADE. This, despite the fact that the police knew who the shooter was. In what universe is it permissible to shoot someone dead for walking and be home sleeping in your own bed hours later? Also, it would be helpful if you could tell us about all the cases where young black gunmen were allowed to walk free because the police decided not to arrest them for shooting other young black men.

      • Anonymous

        They DO know the real point; they are raising all these issues to deflect those who do miss the point from ever arriving there. If everyone got the point, something might change and these types of miscarriage of justice would be greatly reduced or virtually eliminated.

    • Joe in JP

      lol good one, Kevin. i think you’ll get quite a few bites with that.  it’s particularly clever, because you get to take the high ground of caring about young black men, while simultaneously minimizing the injustice of letting someone get away with murder.  nice.  I look forward to reading the rest of your work on here.

      • Still Here

        Nice Joe you just convicted someone of murder without all that messy justice garbage.  Keep it coming friend.  You light up my life!

        • Anonymous

           Convicted????? Are you another one of those fools who thinks personal opinion equates to conviction? Did Joe in JP imply that Zimmerman should be denied a fair trial?

      • Kevin

         I hope Zimmerman gets whatever justice he deserves, following a fair trial. Are you interested in the fair trial part, or do you already know all the “facts”?

        And your post doesn’t in any way address my question: why are murders committed by those of a different race more egregious than those committed by members of the same race?

        If that’s too complicated, let me know. I’ll type slower for you.

        • TFRX

          Where do you get your “information” that there aren’t rallies against black-on-black violence?

          I had to go no farther than The Colbert Report to get a list of such rallies. It came right over my TV.

        • Anonymous

          As explained above several times for the real deliberately “slow-witted,” the protesting discussed here was because this case was being swept under the rug by the justice system, not because of the race of the perpetrator or victim.

    • Still Here

      Good questions.  Doesn’t seem like the cameras and the parasites follow those events.

    • Irv

      There is an added component here that reeks of racism. It cannopt, and should not be denied. I am White and my wife is Black. To this day, we are followed in a store by the guards, often in plain clothes. It is called profiling and it, along with other manifestations of racisism pervade every aspect of our society.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        Very true.

      • Still Here

        So you’re saying their profiling Zimmerman the Hispanic?  That sucks! 

        • Anonymous

          The investigating officer found reasons for a probable cause determination that was overruled by his superiors; there is adequate evidence from George Zimmerman’s conversation with the 911 operator to suspect that ZIMMERMAN was profiling Trayvon.

          Nice try; I will leave it to the Justice Department to determine what the Sanford Police Department is guilty of.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        He KILLED before trial!  What’s wrong with advocating a trial for him?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The other information, and dis-information of this case, brought it to national attention.
         Can you provide 911 tapes for the deaths you seem to bemoan?
         Death, is a harsh sentence, especially when decided and dispensed by an individual.

      • Anonymous

        If the police had behaved in a similar way in those cases you don’t link to as the Sanford Police Department, THEN Kevin would have a complaint.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Because you never been racially profile while driving your car or just walking around in a white rich neighborhood. What do you think if you a black man in a white neighbor what is your first instinct even though you are not a racist?

    • JustTheFacts

      Okay.  Let’s try it again.  Life does not happen in a jar.  There is a history here.  It is a history of victimizing those considered of less value.  There is a history of the guy from “the right family” getting away with murder. 
       
      The outrage is valid.  A kid was walking home from buying SNACKS and was considered suspicious by a man driving around with a loaded weapon, who clearly wanted to be a policeman.  This man was allowed to go home after gunning down this kid, because he said he was defending himself.  But we have heard the recording of Zimmerman saying he was following this kid, not vice versa.
       
      If you can’t grasp the crime of this, you’re just not intelligent enough to participate in an adult discussion.  Perhaps this will help you.  If Zimmerman killed your unarmed daughter with a gun, as she was walking home and said he was defending himself, what would be your thoughts?
       
      Yeah.  I thought so.
       

      • Kevin

         I think Zimmerman is most likely guilty of everything he’s accused of. I believe African-Americans are often treated unfairly by law enforcement. I think a fair trial should be had, and if Zimmerman is found guilty, they should throw the BOOK at him.

        I believe the outrage about this case is valid.

        But that doesn’t answer my question: why the disproportionate outrage in this one particular case, versus those cases that happen every day in our country?

        Why isn’t that a legit question to ask? Does it make you uncomfortable? If so, does that mean it’s not valid?

        JusttheFacts, my @$$.

        • TFRX

          How about the power trip that Zimmerman was on, with a gun, and instead of fleeing, called 911? Self-appointed, semi-trained (if that) wannabe law enforcement?

          Not setting off any alarms about how this is different from typical street crime?

        • Anonymous

          Show us that the POLICE acted similarly to the Sanford Police and “arbitrarily” dismissed the likely perpetrators. In most if not all of those cases you talk about, the police brought the likely culprit to trial or are still searching. Where you might have a point is in cases where the police arrested the nearest easy target without doing a proper investigation; but those are much harder to identify and the public does not get to learn about them until some group like the Innocence Project does an investigation. We all should be angry at the justice system then.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    iOnePoint:

    Yngve Raustein was stabbed by Shon McHugh but Joseph D. Donavan was prison for life because McHugh killed Raustein.

    What kind of justice system do we have in Massachusetts.

    It always been like this. The Innocents always goes to jail and the Criminals will always be protected by the American justice system.

    • ana

      “always been like this”?  “Innocents always go to jail”?  Lots of true criminals in prison.  Yes, too often innocents go, but not “always”

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        It is true innocents always goes to jail but not all criminals goes to jail.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        10 of my Puerto Rican friends always goes to jail because their wives always calls the cops on them for simple non violent domestic affair.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Your friends have never heard of divorce?  It it is as you say, there’s little chance of staying together, so divorce will make things easier on any children, if child-support is paid.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Justice for Joseph Donovan and Jail that Shon Mchugh for life.

    McHugh stabbed and killed Raustein he should go to prison for life not Donovan.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Shon McHugh, who stabbed Raustein, spent 10 years in jail.

      Even the family of Raustein supported Mr. Donovan.

  • Still Here

    Who gets the Panther’s blood reward now?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Wasn’t that bounty for an arrest?  NOT death?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      there is no such thing has blood reward.

      The history of the Black Panther arming themselves to protect them from the Mob and the armed KKK.

  • Irv

    It was NOt the Black Panthers who offered the bounty. It was a new pseudo group that has no connection to them, other than to steal their name.

    • Gregg

      True but it remains disgusting.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    FINALLY!  A small chance at justice.  Very little evidence is left, compared to what could have been gathered at the time, by the police force, had they followed proper proceedure?
       May justice and truth prevail!

    • Gregg

      What makes you believe evidence was not obtained?

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Political position over facts, that’s what guides the opinions of many.

      • Anonymous

         Zimmerman wasn’t even drug tested, for one thing.

        • Gregg

          Do you know that for a fact? Does it matter?

        • Modavations

          How do you know that.

  • Anonymous

    Zimmerman wasn’t even drug tested, for one thing.

  • Anonymous

    Everyone, please. Repeat after me. The national outrage over this incident revolved around the fact that George was not arrested. “NOT ARRESTED, NOT ARRESTED, NOT ARRESTED.” Perhaps, someday, those of you who don’t understand this outrage will be shot in the street and, if you survive, you can tell the police that they shouldn’t arrest the person who shot you.

    • Gregg

      I don’t think it’s odd he was not arrested right a way. It happens all the time. He evidently was not a flight risk. I assume evidence had to be processed and determinations (proper charge, etc.) made BEFORE the arrest or the trial may have been compromised. I don’t think for a minute the race-baiting pressure caused the inevitable arrest. This is the way it usually works when it’s not in our face.

      I have not seen you specifically refer to the race issue but if you think this is about the arrest then you are missing it. It’s all about racism, divisiveness, projected hate and a colossal rush to judgement.

  • jack

    Tom,

    Many thanks to you for helping the Martin family get justice for the killing of their son, Trayvon, by George Zimmerman.  You raised the public’s attention to this murder early on (may have been the first show on it). 
    jack mahoney   

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       You have all the evidence, I take it.  Perhaps you were on the scene?  Fortunately, with your attitude, you won’t be on the jury.

      • Adks12020

        He admitted to killing someone. That is serious.  The fact that he wasn’t arrested based solely on his statements is ridiculous.  The facts may well come out that he was justified under the ridiculous “stand yoru ground law” but he should at least have to be tried for taking a human life.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           Even if the evidence supports his statements?  But why do you call the stand your ground law ridiculous?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

     And no special prosecutor ever went to trial for purely political reasons. . .

  • Still Here

    Thank you Spike Lee!

  • Judi

    I think it’s beyond pathetic that it took this long to have him prosecuted. How can the prosecutor say they aren’t pressured by the public when it took THIS long to arrest him. 

  • Anonymous

    http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats.html 3 women a day killed by domestic violence and no one gets run out of state a tragedy but enough.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      That’s abominable, Lady!

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

     Good luck getting a fair trial for Zimmerman.  He’s been convicted by many already, and some have a proposed sentence.  The facts are irrelevant.

    • Anonymous

      Do you even know what the word “convicted” means? Do you know what the word “opinion” means? Are you implying that American citizens are not allowed to form those opinions? Do you think some of those irrelevant facts will come out at trial?

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Yes, I do.  Do you?  So many who aren’t involved in the case have already made up their minds, unencumbered with facts.

        • Anonymous

           On the contrary, my friend. If you believe George has “already been convicted by many,” then you have no concept at all of what the word means. Since you have such disdain for the concept of personal opinion, maybe you should stop posting yours. Something tells me, however, that you consider you opinions to be valid but you’ll choose who’s aren’t.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             I’m suggesting that far too many have already decided that Zimmerman is guilty.  The little evidence shown in the news hasn’t been so clear, but that hardly matters when people make up their minds from their position on the political spectrum, rather than on the facts.

          • Anonymous

             What political spectrum? Shooting people is good vs. shooting people is bad?

        • Drpmeade

           We await the facts. Zimmerman was told to stand down. Wait for the police. Do you really want someone chasing you in your neighborhood because you look suspicious?

          I support the Castle Doctrine with a modified stand your ground statue. If someone attacks me in my home, I have a right to defend myself and my family.

          I do not support vigilantism. I still say I await the facts. A person with an open mind could serve on the jury. 

    • Still Here

      Sounds like we could save some money that way.

    • BHA in Vermont

       They could call me, but I don’t live in Florida so it won’t happen. I have not convicted Zimmerman as I only know what I have heard on the news.

      But he has some explaining to do, with facts, to prove that he was in danger. That he had reason, under the law, to protect himself by way of using his gun.

  • Still Here

    Why did the prosecutor cancel the grand jury?  Was she afraid that their decision wouldn’t placate the blood lust of the ignorant?  I think you’re being played.

    • Adks12020

      She didn’t go to a grand jury because it isn’t necessary for second degree murder. If she had charged him with first degree (pre-meditated) murder she would have been forced to go before a grand jury. 

      That’s called being a good attorney. She knew what case she could make based on the facts she had seen and decided on a different charge.

    • BHA in Vermont

       Because the grand jury is needed only to bring a charge of first degree murder.

      I doubt anyone thinks Zimmerman left his house that night to intentionally kill someone, whether it be someone he knew or a random person walking down the street.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    If Zimmerman isn’t convicted and put away for a long time, riots are likely.  As always, facts and good sense don’t matter.

  • BEING OBJECTIVE

    If Zimmerman is acquitted, watch the riots begin!  But I’m sure that people like Al Sharpton will find a way to blame it on white people.

    • Still Here

      Well, that’ll be good for the Hispanics, unless he says something good about Fidel.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Watch the prosecutor reject any prospective juror who has a concealed carry license.

  • Ian

    If the case would of been properly investigated from the get go we would not be talking about it today.

    • Still Here

      Here’s a guy who has all the facts, let’s listen to him.

    • Ian

      Ive seen a lot of facts.
      Thats why everyone is so upset about it. Where have you been?

  • jack

    As a Floridian, I want more than an arrest – I want a conviction for murder!  I disagree with your guest, an arrest is not enough.  I also want “Stand Your Ground” (“Will to Kill”) Law repealed ASAP. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       And why is that?

    • Still Here

      apparently spent too much time baking in the sun

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Listen to this pastor:  God, we thank you that we have created enough pressure for a prosecutor to give in to us.

    • Anonymous

       I had a similar reaction, Greg. Perhaps that’s why there are many atheists (I’m one of them) who have a little part of their mind that says “and, if there is a god, I feel sorry for him.  His believers treat his son so disrepectfully!..”

  • Quadraticus

    I don’t think Stand Your Ground applies: according to Zimmerman’s statement to the police, this was a simple case of self defense in which anyone is permitted to use deadly force if in danger of a life (him/herself or someone else) or great bodily harm.

    And to respond to Martin’s mother, it doesn’t matter whether Martin was a minor or not: you don’t magically gain the ability to attack someone when you turn 18.

    This case must be decided entirely on the known facts about the immediate situation in which Zimmerman and Martin found themselves: the only question that matters is, “Did Zimmerman reasonably believe his life was in danger when he shot Martin?” Nothing else matters.

    • Anonymous

      SOMETHING else matters. “Did Martin reasonably believe his life was in danger when confronted by a gun wielding stalker in the night?” Did HE have a right to engage in “SELF-DEFENSE” in the face of great bodily harm?

      • Drpmeade

         See my comment above. If I’m being persued by a person, not in a uniform and without a badge and carrying  gun, concealed or not, then I’m free to assume that they are threatening me. I’m free to “stand my ground” also.

    • Anonymous

      I think the fact that Zimmerman provoked the interaction by following Martin after 911 told him not to is also relevant. 

  • Anonymous

    Your AEI spokesman talks of “distortions” caused by “capital-gains lock-ins.” Was not the concept behind the 1986 tax reforms that distortions came from taxing capital gains and income differently? 

    • Still Here

      1986, those were the days.  Carefree.  When MTv played music videos and a loaf of bread cost a nickel.  Ahh, memories.

  • d clark

    There will be no change of venue. The judge that denies the blood mob their pound of flesh will not be re-elected. After hundreds of years of oppression, the minorities now know how to use the system to oppress whites.

    • Robbie

       minorities are oppressing whites?? Are you serious??? lmao!!

    • John C

      Judges are appointed, not elected.

  • Kevin

    What about Trayvon Martin’s right to stand his ground?

    • Anonymous

      Only gun owners have rights.  The NRA wasn’t spending lobbying money to defend non-members. 

      • TFRX

        The NRA is usually pretty reliable for a chant of “If only the victim had a gun.”

        Somehow they didn’t do it this time.

    • BHA in Vermont

       Hard to stand your ground with a candy bar in one hand and a soda in the other.  

      But good point. It seems like “stand your ground” is likely to cause more people to shoot someone because neither will back down. On its own, that likely creates a feeling of increased danger to your life and limb.

    • Karen Frances

      He had no right to assault Zimmerman.  Zimmerman did have a right to use deadly force to stop Martin from killing him or beating him until he was a vegetable.  

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    This is a problem with the plea bargaining system.  The prosecutor threatens the defendant with the top possible charge and gets some kind of conviction, regardless of the actual facts.

  • Still Here

    What about the drug-deal-gone-bad scenario?  Seems like there are many facts to support that conjecture.

    • TFRX

      “Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.”

  • Robbie

    I see the knuckle-dragging racists are out in droves today.. lol 

    • Still Here

      Enough with the monkey references, let’s keep this civil.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal?

  • TomK in Boston

    I have no preconceptions about guilt or innocence. Zimmerman is a vigilante cop wannabe and Martin was a punk. I’m really disturbed about the PROCESS of how we treat taking a life. If Z had been a cop in the line of duty, he would have been disarmed and put on admin duty pending an investigation. If he was a soldier and the victim an AQ, he probably would be found in violation of the Rules of Engagement.

    Why can someone take a life and walk away, armed, on the sayso of the local cops? He might as well have been stopped for littering. Taking a life is a serious matter, it needs to be treated seriously.

    • Robbie

       Well said!

    • JustTheFacts

      WAIT!  What makes Trayvon a punk?  Skittles, tea, or being Black?
       
      How was the Klan meeting last night?  Did you make the potato salad?

      • notafeminista

        Dog whistle alert.

      • TomK in Boston

        Potato salad is nice, it doesn’t show up when you get it on your sheet.

    • Modavations

      No preconceptions!!!!The word vigilante is preconception

    • Karen Frances

      What  is a self defense law worth if you have to go through a criminal trial to prove your innocence even when the punk had you on the ground beating your skull into concrete?  

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    So a person defends himself and now has to defend himself again?  The prosecutor in the original investigation said that there wasn’t sufficient evidence to go to trial.

    • Anonymous

      So you’ve decided that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. Golly, I thought you were the one who thinks we should all wait for all the evidence. I guess it depends on what evidence we’re waiting to hear.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Actually, I don’t know if Zimmerman is telling the truth.  I do know that one side is dominating the conversation today.

        • Anonymous

           Maybe one side is dominating the conversation. That’s probably because most people feel that we should be allowed to walk at night without being killed. Maybe it’s because most people feel that folks who shoot people dead should be judged with a degree of skepticism, rather than simply sending them home.

    • Realist

      It seems that that stand your ground only applies to white people.
      http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/singleton/

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Stand your ground just says that if I’m somewhere that I have a right to be, I don’t have to try to outrun a bullet before I can defend myself from an attack.

    • Anonymous

       I guess Trayvon Martin decided that he shouldn’t have to outrun a bullet. I guess he decided to defend himself instead. Tell us if you think that YOU would have the right to defend yourself from a threatening stranger with a gun.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Did Zimmerman have his gun out until right before the shot?  He says that he pulled it when he was being hit.

        • Anonymous

           Ah, I see. Some of that rock-solid evidence you love so much. Why don’t we all take poor George’s word for it. Why be skeptical. After all, he only killed someone.

  • AC

    prob someone already asked this, but i’m just getting here:
    what sorts of charges may the police force themselves face if they are found to be negligent in their handling of the whole mess?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Stand your ground doesn’t mean that if I feel nervous, I get to shoot.  There has to be a reasonable belief that my life is in immediate danger.  Quit reading things into the law that aren’t there.

  • Still Here

    I’d like Tom to put this discussion in the context of the one he led on the shootings in Tucson.  Remember that Tom, you were pretty quick to assign guilt there; condemning the incendiary rhetoric of some with your own.  Seems like you’ve forgotten that “lesson” once again.

    • Robbie

       You mean Sarah Palin’s bulls-eye over Tuscon on her “map”?? The one that inspired that lunatic gunman?? Yeah. I thought so.
      You right wing nutjobs really need to get a grip and stop trying to lecture people like Tom.

      • Still Here

        Wow, the ignorant misogynists are out in force today.  You should just stick to your racist comments, it’ll be less isolating. 

        • Robbie

           wow! You managed to squeeze the words misogynist and racist in your straw man argument. Well done! Now you can go masturbate!

  • Tim

    Hi Tom, Please ask your guests:
    Is it possible that this case could be brought to the State supreme court (or, even federal?) challenging the Stand your ground law?  or would that have to be a seperate case?

  • http://www.facebook.com/cory.cotter Cory Cotter

    Horrible police work

  • Joe in Philly

    Agree with the comments against Stand Your Ground. Since striking it down completely is unlikely (too many special interests), can it be limited to use of force in the defense of one’s home, that is, if you’re in your own home, you have the right to use force to protect against home invasion? 

    • Robert Riversong

      That right already exists under law and under the ancient common law “castle doctrine”. This law was allegedly generated after an elderly man defended his RV with deadly force against an invasion and was caught up in the legal system because his act didn’t fit any conventional category.

      So lawmakers (actually the NRA and ALEC, looking for a wedge event) extended the castle doctrine to private vehicles, and also to public spaces.

  • David

    It seems that the police should take a person into custody when there is a death, even if a preliminary hearing decides that “stand your ground” applies.  That way the evidence is gathered and the killer can’t claim “stand my ground” and then disappear quickly. 

    • Robert Riversong

      The Sanford police DID take Zimmerman into custody, performed an initial investigation, asked for a warrant for manslaughter, and was denied by the state’s attorney because there was insufficient evidence to disprove his claim of self-defense.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    We can hear your distaste for the NRA, Tom, but understand that the NRA is a civil rights organization, and like any other, it advocates for the rights of its members and others.

    • Robert Riversong

      Except the NRA has invented a “right” that never existed in our Constitution. The second amendment clearly deals only with the context of civilian state militias. The rest is shear fantasy.

      In the same way, the Court invented a “right” of corporations to be treated like freed slaves under the 14th amendment, and corporate “persons” have defended that “right” mercilessly ever since.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.  Militias are mentioned as being the reason for ennumerating the right, but the right itself belongs to all of us.

        The language of the amendment reads like this:

        Fresh fruit being useful to promoting health, the right of the people to keep and eat oranges shall not be infringed.

        That doesn’t say that I can’t eat an orange because I like it or that I can’t use an orange to make a pie or a mixed drink.  It just says that this is the reason for promoting private posssession of oranges.

  • DotT

    I don’t know what the procedural rules are in Florida but if a policeman fires his gun on duty isn’t there an investigation?
    If an officer kills a suspect in the line of duty isn’t there an investigation?
    Why wouldn’t there be an investigation for any other type of ‘homicide’?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       There was an investigation.  What’s happened since then is the investigation under pressure.

  • Jeanie

    what will happen if in all the states where the “Stand Your ground” laws exist black young men started walking around en mass at night in hoodies carrying guns and shot every one who scared them into thinking they might get killled….Given history they would seem to have some justification in standing Their ground due to fear of death…I happen to be white but am so heart weary of black families having second class justice.

    • Robert Riversong

      Well, there’s the New Black Panther Party (the ones who put a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman “dead or alive”), and which has been disowned by the original Black Panther Party, which – like the New Socialist Party (neo-Nazi) – has already decided it has a right to defend with arms and ignore the law.

  • David

    What is the difference between “self defense” and “stand your ground” ???

    • Robert Riversong

      Self defense allows one to respond with appropriate force. SYG allows one to respond with deadly force.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    God said Thou Shall Not Kill but we passed bills to kill other people.

    • Robert Riversong

      Unfortunately that same God seemed to say “an eye for an eye” (which means proportionate justice, not revenge), but that hasn’t prevented us from misunderstanding everything we’ve been told.

  • M Green Omaha,NE

    Stand your ground justifies those who choose to carry guns to defend themselves against those who oppose carrying guns.
    w/o question. I fear the people who feel the need to carry guns on their person w/choose personal use over use of law enforcement. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      How long does it take for a police response where you live?  Could you protect yourself in the time that response takes?

    • Robert Riversong

      Anyone who claims that anything about this case or it’s context is “without question” is not thinking but merely imposing prejudice.

  • Drpmeade

    George Zimmerman was not a police officer. He was told to not persue Martin. I do have to generally agree with TomK in Boston.  Trayvon Martin was a poser, not a punk,but his juvenile brain didn’t understand the consequences of his posturing within his social network. Mr. Zimmerman, an adult with a pistol and a permit, should have known what he was doing.

    If anyone, without a uniform or a badge, persues someone in a private neighborhood the person persued could and should assume a threat.

    If I or anyone is walking along my street, should they automatically be assumed to be a threat to the well being of someone else? Sounds even worse than the Wild West. 

    • Robert Riversong

      If your neighborhood had experienced eight burglaries,
      nine thefts and one shooting in 2011 alone, and an influx of youthful strangers, then yes you would perceive such people as potential threats.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Caller, you’re sure that you know who was shouting help in that 911 call?

  • Susie Foster

    How can Zimmerman claim SYG when it is clear from the call wih the dispatcher that he was PURSUING Martin?  he was talking with the dispatcher, not Trayvon, then continued the pursuit. If anyone should claim SYG, it would be Trayvon.

    • Robert Riversong

      Because he was following in order to point the police in the right direction, not “pursuing” or “stalking”. And the evidence that’s now available indicates that it was Trayvon who initiated the physical confrontation.

  • Stuart

    Stuart in Merrickville Ont. 
    I do not understand how ‘stand your ground’ applies here.  Who stood what ground?  The paradigm that applies here is more like ‘shock and awe’ than ‘stand your ground’.

    • Robert Riversong

      Then you need to read the law. It is crystal clear and perfectly fits this situation, even if the law itself is insane. Florida statutes chapter 776.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Justice being done is an investigation, followed by a trial, if such is warranted.  Deciding on a conviction in advance isn’t justice, nor is forcing a trial when there’s not enough evidence for one.

    • Anonymous

       Please tell us all when Zimmerman was convicted. I think I missed it. And then you can tell us all how you’ve become privy to all the available evidence you keep telling the rest of us we must wait to hear.

  • http://twitter.com/bethrjacobs bethrjacobs

     a tragedy but this
    was not a small “child” he was 6’3 and stand your ground was in part inacted
    over domestic violence .

    • M Green Omaha,NE

       Its a gun advocate law in the hands of citizens. Not the Wild West with out law enforcement.

      • WW_ph15

         Sounds like the wild west. Shoot out of fear or anger or suspicion, no investigation. Your word against the dead guy.

  • atakemoto

    The fact that George Zimmerman refused to stay in his car after being told to do so by the 911 responder makes me wonder if George wasn’t a little trigger happy.

    • http://twitter.com/bethrjacobs bethrjacobs

      He was a neighborhood watch person grant it in a snotty
      fancy gated community a tragedy but Traven was no small person either he was
      6’3 ; I’ve been t menaced by teenagers myself I think he started to fallow then
      Travon turned got angry and came after him.

      • TFRX

        …and Zimmerman outweighed Martin by some 80 lbs, if we’re going down the road of who’s a threat to who.

        • http://twitter.com/bethrjacobs bethrjacobs

          no I think about forty plus he played football so was well
          built I do think Zimmerman was gun happy but think Travon had a temper and
          turned around and  engaged in an
          altercation both a little scary to an average sized woman .

        • Robert Riversong

          More media disinformation, and more leaping to conclusions to fit a predetermined narrative.

          The NY Times corrected the earlier widespread inaccuracies: Zimmerman was 5-9 and 170 while Trayvon was 6-1 and 150. Not much difference in weight, but a 4″ height and reach advantage for the youth.

      • Still Here

        Did they test him for drugs?  I thought pot was supposed to be calming but bashing a guys head on the ground doesn’t seem like it.

        • TFRX

          Did they test Zimmerman for drugs, you mean?

  • Bgaidry

    Regardless of what happens with George Zimmerman, it is America’s Soul that is now on trial.

    In the days following the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, I have
    heard a lot of mindful, soul-searching attempts at creating real
    understanding, as well as a lot of very ugly, divisive, racist rhetoric.

    Ultimately, we will be judged by our children and grandchildren on the evidence of our actions or inaction.

    • Robert Riversong

      I’ve tried to read everything publicly available on this incident that I can find, and I’ve found precious little evidence of “soul-searching”. 

      What I’ve found overwhelmingly is people on both sides of the political spectrum and the race divide jumping to unwarranted conclusions and blowing this incident far out of proportion.

  • Arydberg
  • Anonymous

    Isn’t it possible that Stand Your Ground is applicable to Trayvon? 
    The language in the statute reads:”A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to
    prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

    Let’s apply the statute to Trayvon:

    A person (Trayvon Martin) who is not engaged in an unlawful activity (walking down the sidewalk talking on the phone) and who is attacked (by an armed stranger, Zimmerman) in any other place where he or she has a right to be (on the way home to his father) has no duty to retreat (running away from Zimmerman, a stranger following him in a car) and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force(defending himself against Zimmerman by punching him in the nose), including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony (perhaps Trayvon saw Zimmerman’s holstered gun when Zimmerman happened upon him?).

    • John in Vermont

       You’ve outlined this very well.  However, once again all this is being presented and conjectured on outside of the rules of evidence in a court.

    • PAlawyer

      What’s your point?  Sure, Trayvon may have been justified in whatever force he used against Zimmerman under the SYG, he is not on trial and does not need justification under the statute.  He is dead.  And there is no automatic conviction for an agressor if the victim was properly using the SYG law… Is there a purpose for your post? 

    • Robert Riversong

      If the evidence we have at this point is factual, then Trayvon’s escalation of a verbal confrontation into a physical fight is not standing your ground. It is foolishly starting a fight where you can’t predict the ending.

  • M Green Omaha,NE

    Florida stand your ground goes beyond self defense by a battered spouse. 

    • Robert Riversong

      It has nothing to do with domestic violence. It is an extension of the castle doctrine of defense of home, self and loved ones.

  • MikeSouthernIndiana

    How many of you people have ever actually been in the middle of a case that involved someone defending themselves.  I have and it’s scary and Zimmerman may have been in the right to protect himself.

    • WW_ph15

       Even if Zimmerman felt he had to “defend himself” he didn’t have to use deadly force against an unarmed teen. When you carry a gun, you’re going to want to use it. That’s why the NRA pushed for the law.They have guns and itchy trigger fingers for human targets not paper ones.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HUHWX4TIAZRFNFYCWUE43OZDUQ 7LeagueBoots

    The Stand Your Ground law keeps coming under attack and is used to justify Zimmerman’s actions, but that’s not how it’s supposed to work.  From the way this has been reported, there in only one person to whom the Stand Your Ground law should apply, and that person ins now dead.  Treyvon is the one who needed to defend himself, not Zimmerman.  There will probably be more to come out in the trial, but the problem is not the Stand Your Ground law, it is how it is interpreted and who is telling the truth.

    • Robert Riversong

      You clearly haven’t read the Florida law, chapter 776, which states that even the one who initiates a confrontation in a public place in which he has a legal right to be can use deadly force if, at any time, he feels in jeopardy of serious bodily harm or death.

      This might be insane, but Zimmerman’s action most certainly falls under that legal “get out of jail free” card. And the evidence in this case is that it was not Zimmerman who escalated a verbal confrontation into a physical one.

  • Robbie

    I just checked those stats on the FBI website and the caller is deluded. I have no clue where he came up with that 90% statistic. It must be the tin foil on his head. lol

    • Robert Riversong

      However, the stats for 2009 show that, among all one-on-one homicides in which race is known, the rate of black-on-white killing is almost exactly double that of white-on-black.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    This is not Emmett Till, and Florida is much more complex than simply Old South.

    • JustTheFacts

      Complex like you???

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Meaning what, exactly?  Florida has a wide variety of ethnic and economic groups.

  • Kyerion Printup

    The outrage is that a unarmed teenager was killed by another man. That should outrage any irregardless of race. That’s just wrong.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       But what if Zimmerman is telling the truth?  The question is disparity of force.  If a younger man is beating up someone, the person being beaten has the right to defend himself.

      • Anonymous

         What if the young man is beating up someone because that someone threatened him with a gun? My guess is the disparity of force lies in favor of the jerk with the weapon. Maybe your a lot tougher than me.

        • Esteban

          If Martin was kicking his ass, then the gun was not initially out, but holstered… otherwise his head would not have all the bruises and abrasions… more than likely, Zimmerman was attacked and knocked down, Martin on top and then the gun came out…

          • Anonymous

            Bruises??? Abrasions??? Are you telling me no one has ever overpowered a gunman in the history of firearms? Based solely on my own subjective opinion, I think my nana could have overpowered Zimmerman even if he was armed with a bazooka.

        • Still Here

          That’s a lot of ifs.

          • Anonymous

             That’s exactly “ONE” if.

    • JustTheFacts

      Succinct and correct.  Big ups, Ky!!!

  • John in Vermont

    The biggest issue here is that this was allowed to be tried in the press and the court of public opinion rather than in the criminal justice system. My biggest fear now is that a judge will agree with the defense that a fair trial cannot happen due to the pre-trial publicity. 

    If this happens then the original prosecutor and the police chief should be indicted for misconduct and malfeasance of office.

    • Robert Riversong

      I agree that a fair trial is not likely possible. But I don’t see the police chief and original prosecutor as having done anything other than attempt to comply with the law and their jobs. 

      The two problems here are the SYG law which hamstrings law enforcement and the national circus that was created around a case that may very well have no racial element at all.

      The only likely reason that the special prosecutor felt she had to bring second-degree charges (which means with malice) is because of the political pressure. The original attempted police charge was the appropriate manslaughter.

  • BHA in Vermont

    NOTHING would be happening if the story hadn’t made the national media. How many other similar incidents have occurred?

    I agree with Sen. Smith’s comments. There should be a THOROUGH investigation as to the veracity of the claim ANYTIME someone “uses” the “Stand Your Ground” law. Is it NO different in my mind than any other shooting, stabbing, etc. NO ONE should be able to say “I was scared for my safety so I shot him” and go home guaranteed that is the end of it. Just because you don’t HAVE to back off doesn’t mean you SHOULDN’T if you can. If you don’t, you MUST prove your claim that you had no choice but to act with deadly force. You KILLED SOMEONE!

    I stand by one of my previous posts last week. Zimmerman would NOT have approached Martin were he not carrying a gun. He ignored the dispatcher’s request that he not approach the ‘suspect’. He created the environment where he can claim “Stand Your Ground”. Guns don’t kill people, people who feel invincible because they have a gun kill people.

    Did Zimmerman act, even in part, because he figured the “Stand Your Ground” law would protect him?  I have no idea.

    • Mabachand

      you are absolutely correct!

    • Robert Riversong

      That’s right: you have no idea. But that doesn’t stop you – and millions of others – from being certain of Zimmerman’s motivations or mindset.

      There’s nothing in the record so far that suggests that Zimmerman did anything other than try to keep his eye on the unknown stranger until the police arrived.

  • Mike

    No one mentions the reason for stand your ground. Citizens who defend themselves legally are put through the ringer by the legal system. Their lives are usually ruined if they had cause or not.

    • Robert Riversong

      Not if they were defending their “castle”, but these laws extend the “castle” to anywhere you happen to be, even if you instigate a confrontation.

      • Rick

        Yeah, that, along with my concern about the burden of proof are what seems problematic to me.  I don’t want to live in a country where anytime two people confront one another with no witnesses, the one with the biggest weapon gets to claim “standing my ground” and walk (unless it can be proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt – good luck), while the other gets no say, because they are dead.  Again, seems like there would be a lot of murders not in jail if that was always how the burden of proof worked.

  • Rick

    I’m curious and concerned about the application of “the burden on proof” in a case like this.  Is it really the burden of prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person was NOT acting in self defense?  I’m a big fan of the burden of proof in establishing who pulled the trigger, but it seems that there would be a lot of murderers on the streets if you had to prove, in every case, beyond a reasonable doubt, that it was not in self defense.  If I am known to shoot someone to death, does the burden of proof not shift to me to proof that it was justifiable in some way?

    • http://www.dpsinfo.com LaurieMann

      I think the critical pieces of evidence are the phone calls between 911 and George Zimmerman (the 911 operator told him to “let the police handle it”) and between Trayvon Martin and his girlfriend. 

    • Robert Riversong

      Not with the Stand Your Ground laws, which reverse the burden of proof. Since it’s next to impossible to disprove a shooter’s state of mind in the moment, there’s almost no way to prosecute such cases. 

      That’s why almost every law enforcement and prosecutorial group in Florida opposed it, and that’s why “justifiable homicides” have tripled since it was signed by Jeb Bush in 2005.

      • Rick

        I don’t understand how the stand your ground law can be interpreted as relevant here.  I heard the guy who sponsored the bill saying it wasn’t.  If it is relevant I would think it would actually disallow  Zimmerman’s self defense claim.  It is fair to say that we know that Zimmerman was pursuing Martin before Martin did anything to Zimmerman (if he did anything at all).  Wouldn’t the stand your ground law allow for Martin to stand his ground against someone who is coming after him, justifying whatever it was that he may have done to Zimmerman?  Just on the face of it, standing your ground, and pursuing someone you believe to be a threat are in opposition to one another.

  • Teresa Tanzi, RI

    JUST HOW MANY break-ins were there? I keep hearing there was justifiable reasons for G.Z. to be on hyper alert, but NO ONE talks about just how many break-ins there were in his GATED community! Hire someone to better guard the gate, don’t get a gun and wander the streets. 

    • Robert Riversong

      According to police records, there were eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community in 2011 alone. Residents were legitimately suspicious of strangers, particularly youth.

  • Frank from Palm Bay, FL

    Frank from Boston just called with the 90% black on white crime figure. Sure that makes sense, since blacks are only 10% of the population, who are they supposed to victimize? That’s just a another “number” that when looked at is nonsense. Let’s flip it from a white crooks perspective, who is he going to rob or steal from? That’s right odds are another white, we’re 9 out of the 10 of the people out there. Frank is another nutjob.

  • Robbie

    George Zimmerman can be clearly heard on the 911 tapes calling Trayvon Martin a “F**kin Coon”..  ya.. sure. Race had nothing to do with it huh??

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Clearly heard?  I saw that video.  The tape went through processing to bring out a scratchy sound.  Clearly means different things to different people, it seems.

    • Still Here

      I thought he said “taxing goons”  It is almost April 15th.  But you’re the racist.

    • Esteban

      The news media editing and skewed what he said… the actually quote is “it is f***ing cold” as in reference to the temperature outside that night!!! It was about 40 degrees… that was the same weekend as Disney’s Half Marathon 

    • Robert Riversong

      There’s nothing even remotely intelligible like that on the tape. If that’s what you’ve chosen to hear, that’s your own prejudice.

  • Ellen Dibble

    When the police and justice system lose credibility, then we are at risk of vigilante justice of the sort that Afghanistan seems to have had to live with for generations.
        Police do have to defend their killing someone, but mostly they call for backup if they think they are getting into difficulty.  They don’t escalate things.  Maybe Zimmerman didn’t feel he could  call the professionals.  The condo association that he was proceeding on behalf of, did they know he’d be armed?  I suppose so.
       I’m thinking of a spot in town, a spot on a bike path near the park that teenagers use a lot for skateboarding.  I often read about crimes happening here, because it isn’t on a patrolled road.  It’s a path.  There are people who die of drug overdoses here, and so on.  A dog attacked someone here.  Bears come and go, believe it or not.  The last two times I’ve biked there, I saw, as I approached, a group of three hooded young people, low-ride pants and so on, sort of looking over their shoulders, as if to appraise me as a target.  Now, I don’t have a cell phone, so I have to size them up or go around the long, trafficky route.  But these have been at 3:00 PM, and others walk the same way.  I had “wheels,” in a slow bike.  But just my being afraid there deters me from going there.  I suppose the situation is totally benign, but the situation is not that different.  We do have bicycle cops, but only a couple.  If someone actually pursues in a van, that’s pretty aggressive.  If they don’t have police training about the exact amount of force that you’re allowed to use, and that is upheld in public courts of law, then it gets pretty dicey, obviously.  I would put the NRA on trial, too.

    • Robert Riversong

      The first thing Zimmerman did was have a long conversation with “the professionals”. You can’t have a legitimate opinion on this incident if you’re completely oblivious of the facts.

  • WW_ph15

    The over-riding issue here is that a man who killed just walked away without a proper investigation. Whatever Zimmerman’s motive, he should have been held until there was a complete investigation. How did that boy’s body lie there for a few day without them checking his cell phone and questioning people in the neighborhood to find out his identity?

    • Robert Riversong

      The police took Zimmerman to the station in handcuffs for interrogation, interviewed every eye- and ear-witness on the scene, took Zimmerman back the next do to have him re-enact the entire event, and then attempted to get a warrant for manslaughter but was overruled by the state prosecutor.

      How’s that not an adequate investigation?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Oh, please, having a handgun on one’s person is like wearing a seatbelt.  Most of us with carry licenses aren’t carrying because we’re looking for trouble.  We’re just adding a layer of safety.

    But, of course, this story is filtered through the popular narratives of how life is, rather than focusing on the facts.

    • lodger

      Except you can’t kill someone with your seatbelt.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         Do you believe in the right of self defense?

        • Anonymous

           Trayvon Martin sure did.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             How did Martin have any reasonable belief that his life was in danger during much of this incident?

          • Robbie

             he was being hunted by a dude who thought he is a “fuxxn Coon”.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Apparently, you didn’t watch the whole video about that piece of tape.  The sound engineer has to tweak the recording a lot to get something that might be what you’re claiming.

          • Anonymous

             It’s called “being followed by an asshole with a gun.” I’d sure feel threatened. Now you can tell me that George didn’t threaten Trayvon with his gun, because of course YOU know everything that happened that night and the rest of us are simply jumping to conclusions.

        • notafeminista

          One can’t believe in the right of self-defense when one doesn’t believe life is worth preserving in the first place.

          • Brett

            Are you sure you’re not Still Here?

          • notafeminista

            Just never know do ya…;)

    • Robbie

      another paranoid gun loving nutjob.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         And your evidence for that is what, exactly?  Have you simply decided that anyone who owns or carries a gun is paranoid?

        • Adks12020

          Having a gun on your person is not necessary in the vast majority of the United States.  It may not be paranoia..maybe its a substitute for other shortcomings. like a flashy sportscar often is.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             There are different levels of need.  I consider it an added layer of security.  But then, I don’t psychoanalyze others without evidence.

          • Brett

            Well, ya know what Freud said, “sometimes a sports car is just a sports car.”

        • Robbie

           what are guns used for? back scratching?? get a grip dude!

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             So self defense isn’t a legitimate reason, in your mind?

          • Robbie

             taking a human life never legitimate.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             So if someone is trying to kill you, you wouldn’t fight back?  Fine, be a pacifist.  But that doesn’t negate the right of self defense.

          • Robbie

             I don’t know what America you live in dude.

          • notafeminista
          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             The United States of America.  Which one are you in?

          • MikeSouthernIndiana

            Ok Ill laugh if I see someone like you get their ass kicked and not fight back.  You obviously don’t have the survival instincts that I have.  You also havn’t seen someone killed beside you like I have or had someone try to kill you like I have.

    • MikeSouthernIndiana

      Exactly, most of the people that comment on this story thing they are “so right” because they think they know how life is.  99% of those people probably never have been involved in a real case that is like this.

  • Moondancer010

    Stand your ground  ?   Wasnt it the boy who had the right
    to stand his ground… being followed.. being hassled…  being
    questioned about his right to be on that street.  
    Zimmerman was told by the police to leave him alone.
    He stalked and aggressively came at Treyvon…
    he murdered that boy.

    • Robert Riversong

      None of the publicly-available evidence supports your description of the events. 

    • Esteban

      where is the aggressiveness???

  • Rich

    ALEC and the NRA should be charged as accessories/conspirators in this incident.

  • MikeSouthernIndiana

    Seriously they should be presenting people who have been in a Stand Your Ground or self defense situation.  I’m sick of these people saying how things are so wrong one way or the other but not many really have experience

  • http://www.facebook.com/dreamingmatthew Matthew Stephenson

    Zimmmerman was clearly in the wrong from the moment that he disobeyed the 911 operator’s instruction, but we cannot know if race was a factor unless we read his mind.  His history of making reports and aggressive behavior suggests that the man was looking for a fight and wanted to be a hero. A person like that may jump on ANY opportunity. Zimmerman himself was a tragedy waiting to happen.

  • http://www.dpsinfo.com LaurieMann

    The male caller at about 53 minutes into the hour is amazingly ignorant to say the shooting of Trayvon Martin had nothing to do with race.  George Zimmerman was well-known to the 911 operators in Florida as he’d called them many times to report a black man walking in his neighborhood. (http://loop21.com/life/george-zimmerman-911-call-history) I don’t believe for a second that Zimmerman would have shot a white kid walking around the neighborhood.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       But that doesn’t mean that Zimmerman is a racist.  If he reports a stranger in the neighborhood, that’s a claim of fact.  Is there any evidence that Zimmerman hates black people?

      • http://www.dpsinfo.com LaurieMann

        Did he shoot any of the white teenagers in his neighborhood?  Why did he just call 911 when he saw black men? While I suspect Zimmerman is a racist, he’s already proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he’s a killer.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           He shot no one who wasn’t attacking him.  His claim is that Martin was beating him.  What does that have to do with race?

          • Robbie

             Uhh.. maybe because he called the kid a “effin coon” has something to do with the perception that he is a racist…?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Kind of like backmasking on rock songs–I think the singer said Satan. . .

          • Robbie

             can’t handle pesky little things like “facts” huh?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Is that a confession, Robbie?

          • Robbie

             no.. just an observation.

          • Esteban

            The quote was “f***ing cold” in reference to the temperature that night… NBC and ABC twisted and edited the video and audio… check it out…

          • Still Here

            I thought he said “black mold”  That stuff is deadly, and murder to clean.

          • Esteban

            Black mold is bad, but that would be more for indoors and warm moist. Was a cold, low humid/dry night that night… I was in Orlando then…

          • Esteban

            Exacty!!!! He accosted (translate, spoke with) Martin, and then RETREATED. Martin attacked him (oops!!! that’s not being popularized or broadcasted, is it!!!). The altercation ensued. Martin on top of him beating his head. Out comes the gun. It goes off. Beating stopped. Kid dead. 

            Anyway this is close, have a nice day… case closed!!!

          • http://www.dpsinfo.com LaurieMann

            And your evidence that Zimmerman was beaten?  The photos of him taken after the crime don’t show any facial bruises.

        • MikeSouthernIndiana

          So you are qualified how.  I’m sure your job as a prosecutor or criminal behavior specialists is just booming isn’t it. 

          • Still Here

            Dude, she’s got a keyboard.  That allows her to dispense judgment as she sees fit.  You have been warned.

          • MikeSouthernIndiana

            I have been warned.  Calling someone a killer is serious and very kindergarten at the same time.  We have degrees of homicide and Zimmerman hasn’t even been convicted of anything yet.

          • Still Here

            Well, not officially at least, but the blood lust needs to be sated.

          • http://www.dpsinfo.com LaurieMann

            He took a gun and killed someone.  And that means he’s not a killer?

        • Esteban

          Did any of the white teenagers attack him and beat his ass threatening to “get him” if not tonight, then soon??? Don’t think so…

          Ever wonder if maybe Martin was another teen thug??? Could be… defense will have a field day if it gets that far destroying his character, the parents, and the culture/community character… why was he there in Sanford??? Because he was suspended for drug possession/dealing and other offenses… 

          • JustTheFacts

            Yep, Esteban.  I do believe you have something there.  I blame the Skittles and the tea.  There should be a law.  Take the Skittles and Tea from these thugs and then let’s see how tough they are!!!  Esteban For Mayor!

          • Esteban

            Now you are thinking!!!

        • Still Here

          No, none of them were drugged-out and bashing his head in the cement.

          • Brett

            hearsay 

      • Still Here

        Exactly, the only common thread in all of Zimmerman’s calls to 911 was the report of a stranger acting suspiciously in their quiet community.  Only people looking for the crutch of racism everywhere see it here.

      • Chuck S.

        Yes, his utterance of “f***ing coons” on the 911 call is pretty clear.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           After being washed through processing, it’s still scratchy.  How do you define “clear”?

          • Robbie

             aah. now you claim it was “washed through processing” LOLOLOL!! You are a piece of work Greg.

          • Robbie

             take off your tin foil hat and you may hear it more clearly.

        • Still Here

          I thought he said “waxing moons”

        • Gregg

          No it’s not. It was an outrageous lie which has since been recanted by CNN.

  • Rebekah Majors-Manley

    This case is why I support the Innocence project. Black young men are prejudged in America  all the time and every day-Wake up America! From a white mother of 4 amazing sons that will never be gunned down or thought of as up to no good. However, black America/white America stop encouraging gangster behavior in your kids . In all of this case I am the most appalled by the behavior of Spike Lee tweeting Zimmermans address.

    • Still Here

      Apparently Hispanic young men are as well, whites and blacks want this guy strung up before he escapes to Mexico. 

  • Sam from New York

    I found the stats that guy was talking about and he was WAY off:
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl06.xls 

    Among single victim-single perpetrator cases, 447 white people were murdered by black people and 218 black people were murdered by white people. In both groups, you are FAR more likely to be murdered by someone of your own race. This statistics are unsurprising given the correlations between race and poverty and between poverty and crime. Blacks are disproportionately more likely to be murdered and a little more disproportionately likely to be murderers. That in NO WAY justifies stereotyping. If anything, it shows that people should be many times more afraid of members of their own race, since that is by and large the most likely person to kill you.

    • Bruce Pfeiffer, Jr.

       I think the “male/female” statistics included in that report you cite are a far more important concern than the figures you discuss, though they’re certainly not the focus of this discussion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nathan-Morton/533645662 Nathan Morton

    The contortions some of you trolls are going through to justify Zimmerman’s actions are sickening.  Guy with gun follows kid (unarmed) that he is suspicious of…shortly thereafter the kid is dead of a gunshot. It is insane that Zimmerman was not immediately arrested. 

    • Still Here

      Guys, we’ve got an eye witness here.  Please listen to him. 

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nathan-Morton/533645662 Nathan Morton

        no, these are the most basic, uncontroversial facts – guy with gun follows kid, kid dead by guy with gun.  period. That this arrest is at all controversial is testament to the contortions of reason people are performing.

        • Still Here

          There’s about 10 minutes to tape missing from your little recording of events that you can’t account for but that’s not stopping you from filling in the blanks with your own simplistic narrative.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nathan-Morton/533645662 Nathan Morton

            no you don’t get it. a guy shot an unarmed kid.  that is reason enough to arrest and investigate.  You seem to be obsessed with all the stuff we don’t know and fantasizing about how that can justify zimmerman’s actions.  Then, when there is an investigation and trial all the evidence can be examined.

          • Robbie

             He won’t ever be satisfied. His obsession is far too ingrained and confined under that tin foil hat.

          • Still Here

            What if guy has lost knowledge of where kid is?  Kid jumps guy from behind.  Kid is on top of the guy bashing his head into the cement.  At the time, guy’s gun is concealed in a ankle holster.  The guy frees himself, draws gun, indicates to kid he will shoot if kid doesn’t stop, kid comes at guy, wrestles for gun, gun goes off accidently during struggle.

          • Anonymous

             BOY, that’s an awful lot of what ifs. I’m sure it happened exactly that way.

          • Still Here

            Actually, it’s all fact based on Z’s statements. 

          • Anonymous

            Now I see. Whatever Zimmerman says, those are the facts. So much much for your phony concern about “THE TRUTH.”

          • Still Here

            Can you disprove them?  I’ll wait.

          • Anonymous

             No, I can’t disprove them, no more than you can prove them to be factual. But you’re not interested in that, are you?

          • Anonymous

             While once again ignoring the most basic facts, you cite ten minutes of tape indicating what a jackass Zimmerman was? That’s your reply? Really?

        • Modavations

          hearsay

      • Anonymous

         Maybe you can tell us which part of Nathan’s recounting of the events is factually wrong.

  • Robert Riversong

    The real villain in this incident is the Stand Your Ground law which encourages vigilantism and handcuffs law enforcement.

    But nearly everyone has inserted their own prejudice into the facts of this case and jumped to a conclusion that it was racially motivated and perpetrated by a volatile cop wannabe.

    What the “justice” seekers, however, don’t seem to be interested in is that George Zimmerman has a lifetime history of befriending people of all races, of defending bullied kids, of spending quality time with the autistic child of a neighbor, and of mentoring two black teenagers when he was in college. We know that he was injured in the confrontation and that almost all the witnesses corroborated his story. But almost the entire black justice and left activist community have convicted the man as a hate criminal with not a shred of evidence to support that judgement.

    Those who are so quick to rush to judgement and declare Sanford FL the new Selma, also don’t seem to care that the community that Zimmerman volunteered to patrol had experienced eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting in 2011 alone, and residents were wary of strangers, particularly gangsta-dressed youth.

    Nor do they want to acknowledge that Zimmerman was not on patrol that evening with a gun. He was on his way to Target for an errand and carrying legally for his own protection, but got diverted when he saw another stranger who was wandering aimlessly in the rain and avoiding the streets and sidewalks.

    Strategically, this was not a good case around which to focus a national movement, particularly when the black and white case of police murder of 68-year-old black ex-Marine and retired correctional officer Kenneth Chamberlain Sr. in his own home, with the whole episode on video and audio and a clear racial dimension has been all but ignored, even though it took 5 months before the state would even begin to act.

    • MikeSouthernIndiana

      No the “just seekers” (I like that) have no idea about Zimmeman.  They would rather say it’s racist or the Stand Your Ground Law is so aweful because it makes them feel like they actually have a life and don’t have to stick their necks out.  It’s so easy jumping on a bandwagon but it’s not as easy going against the tide and maybe questioning EVERYTHING.  Being anti-racist is so cool these days too.  Racism is bad but just because the black kid was shot dosn’t automatically make it racist.  Zimmerman has friends that are black.  He sure fits the profile of a killer racist extremeist dosn’t he?  No he was a guy caught in a bad situation and now it’s gotten rediculous.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nathan-Morton/533645662 Nathan Morton

      you can have black friends, love michael jordan and motown and still have internalized the notion that black youth are dangerous and suspicious.  Zimmerman thinking a black kid walking is “up to no good” is indication of that type of thinking whether or not he is a “racist”

      • Still Here

        Wow, now you know what he’s internalized.  You are beautiful! 

      • Gregg

        There is no reason to assume Martin’s color made him look more suspicious to Zimmerman.

  • JustTheFacts

    Enough of the BS use of stats (some obviously specious).  We all know these things about crime in America:  A white female is more likely to raped by a white male, whom she knows than anyone else.  A black male is more likely to be gunned down by another black male than anyone else.
     
    These truths don’t mitigate the fact that a kid was walking home doing nothing wrong and was gun downed.  And, the man who committed the crime was allowed to go free.  And apparently it took CSI, Sherlock Holmes and MacGuyver to find enough evidence to press charges.  In spite of the Zimmerman 911 calls in which he says he was following this kid. 
     
    That kid was unarmed, minding his own business and walking home. Zimmerman was policeman, judge, jury and executioner.  It is now for decent people to make it clear that this won’t be allowed. 

    • Bruce Pfeiffer, Jr.

       Hear! Hear!

    • Tjbinkley

       For someone named JustTheFacts you seem to not have any.

  • Esteban

    Congrartulations NPR and ON Point… you have joined the ranks of half-hearted editing and reporting to already have convicted Zimmerman, ignoring the discrepancies, ignoring the totality of evidence, and most importantly ignoring the law. What is most interesting is your guests at least understand the difficulties and are trying to hedge and prepare the world for judgement that despite all the furor and outcry, this case will not succeed. It will be a huge waste of time/money, flame the issues of racial divide, and ruin lives further… 

    Even your guests try to bring in the contrary view that Martin attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman retreated. BINGO, case dismissed, have a nice day!!! 

    Nobody is talking at all that maybe Martin was another rogue teen thug and the aggressor. Be certain the defense will. The defense will put this kid on trial, put the family on trial, put the demise of black families in America on trial, put the abandonment of a father figure on trial, put the immediate greed and financial gain desires of the family on trial, and on and on. The defense will dispute the claim that Zimmerman was a rogue psychopath through all of his charitable works and time mentoring youth and so on. The defense will show the full clips and destroy the editing that the media has already done to sway public opinion. It won’t work. THe defense plea down–the prosecution overcharged, just like Casey Anthony. Jose Baez will be involved before long–the pay off is huge for him or his associates. 

    What is even more criminal is why did it take the MEDIA 11 days to make a report on this case and why is it allowable for the media to practice “yellow” journalism with showing editing clips of tape and audio, airbrushing footage to hide evidence, all in the name of false news. Why is NPR not looking at that??? 

    BTW, yes, Zimmerman should have had to answer more formally for his actions, and he might have already done that. A board of inquiry, a grand jury, a judge, something–maybe the SYG law is weak in that respect.  

    • Sam from New York

      The media didn’t report on it right away because a murder like this is a local story. It only became a national story when time passed without an arrest under circumstances that clearly presented probable cause. The call is for Zimmerman to face charges. Now he will. So long as it is a fair trial, the outcome will be respected. He might go free because of the Stand Your Ground law, though the facts as they appear at the moment make that seem unlikely (but that’s why we have the trial). If that happens, the push will be to change that law and Zimmerman will just be one more suspected murderer who beat the rap, like Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson.

      • Esteban

        It became a story when Reverend Al and Jesse got involved and fueled the flames of racial divide…

        In those 11 days, no one reports what was occurring… the background follow-up investigation that obviously was not satisfactory…

        • Robbie

           he was lying in a cold storage and the cops didn’t even bother to contact his parents. The original investigator wanted to charge him, however, he was overruled by the police chief. Why don’t you understand that?

          • Modavations

            hearsay

          • Esteban

            I do understand that… not saying the local police there did everything right, but something was awry from the get-go… And cold storage sucks, fully with that, but that is not Zimmerman’s doing (the cold storage thing)… that is Sanford police. Don’t think the kid had any ID on him so how were they they to contact the parents… dad was local, Mom in Miami… Hmmm, why did his father not call with a missing person’s report when his son was missing???

        • Mary

          “Rev. Al” really does more harm to the “black” cause than good. He should work at turning around the PARENTS of the REAL thugs. The police force that did nothing is highly to blame for the sensationalism. Why were they protecting Zimmerman? They should have at least took him into custody within a day or so. I’m white and am sick of all the racial bias in this country. I grieve for the Martin family.

          • Esteban

            They took him in, questioned him, and released him. They didn’t dismiss him… they knew where he was. He didn’t run away or hide until he needed to for his own safety and protection. And as you saw, he presented himself to the authorities when asked to do so… this guy is not the maniac made out to be.

            Grieving for the family, yes, of course. It sucks… there is no winner here. 

    • JustTheFacts

      You are pathetic. 

      A kid was walking home, minding his business.  Zimmerman killed that kid.

      Nobody cares if you or Zimmerman didn’t like.  He was WALKING HOME AND MINDING HIS OWN BUSINESS.

      Esteban, is your father a judge?  There is something very familiar about you.  Hmmmmm.

      • Esteban

        The kid was walking home on a cold, rainy night, in dark clothes, in an area where burglaries have been occurring… hmmm… 

        Zimmerman is on Neighborhood Watch… his role is to see such, report such, and make simple inquiries of such… hmmm…

        Yes, the kid was minding his own business. Zimmerman asked him what he was doing there. And then disengaged and the kid attacked Zimmerman–that is not minding one’s own business anymore. That is a pissed off angry kid assaulting an adult…

        Sorry you cannot accept that maybe Zimmerman isn’t the heinous racist bastard cold-blooded killer that the mainstream media is trying to make him out to be…

        Look at JUST THE FACTS, but all the facts. Don’t cherry pick the ones you like…

      • Modavations

        Hearsay

    • Anonymous

      What would you do to protect yourself if confronted by an armed stalker?

      • Esteban

        See above comment… Zimmerman was not armed and brandishing his weapon like a crazy man. If he was carrying it, it was concealed. Talking to the young man/teen is not stalking or a crime… ZIMMERMAN walked away after that…

        MARTIN attacked ZIMMERMAN… Martin unarmed attacked an armed man and got shot… and killed… that is called self-defense…

  • JMC

    Stats from study by the DOJ on homicide between race.

    Arrests
    UCR, Arrests by Race, 2009: [3]
    [edit] Murder
    Homicide victimization by race, 1976-2005. [1]
    UCR, Murder Victims by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [4]UCR, Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2009: [5]UCR, Race and Sex of Victim by Race and Sex of Offender, Single victim/single offender, 2009: [6]
    A United States Department of Justice report which surveyed homicide statistics between 1974 and 2004 stated that of the crimes surveyed, 52.2% of the offenders were Black, 45.8% were White, and 2% were Other Races. Of the victims in those same crimes, 50.9% were White, 46.9% were Black, and 2.1% were Other Races. The report further stated that “most murders are intraracial” with 86% of White murders committed by Whites, and 94% of Black murders committed by Blacks.[21] However, the document does not provide any details concerning what races or ethnicities are included in the designations “White”, “Black”, or “Other Races”.

    • Anonymous

      Your comment is what “the law” would term irrelevant.

      • Brett

        If that is an objection, it is sustained! 

  • Still Here

    What’s up with this Stand-by-your-man” Law?  I thought Hillary freed us from that oppression.  Come on girls, let’s get agitated.

    • notafeminista

      Hush Emily ;)

  • Anonymous

    The Stand Your Ground law reminds me of the Bush Doctrine.  Both offer the presumption of righteousness to the armed first actor without any preventative safeguards to guard against that actor’s paranoia or perceptive error.  Also missing: legal accountability for determining “guilty intentionality” when the law is claimed as a defense for the armed first actor.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       The law requires a reasonable belief that one’s life is in immediate danger.

      • Robbie

         reasonable belief is subjective and means different things to different people. I’m sure Charles Manson had “reasonable belief” that what he did was justified.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           Reasonable belief means that others would agree with your assessment.

          • Brett

            Yes, there has to be some kind of consensus on reality. In Manson’s case, delusions played a role.

      • Bruce Pfeiffer, Jr.

         The law requires the STATEMENT of a reasonable belief that one’s life is in immediate danger, and I’m afraid there are even presidents and vice presidents whose word I would have trouble accepting on such a matter so I am afraid I would not be heartened by that stipulation.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           It also requires that the evidence line up with the statement.  Come on, you can’t shoot someone and then claim this law as your defense without the facts being on your side.  Get real.

          • Anonymous

            If you believe that, you don’t know much about how “the law” works when the only witness is the defendant.  You’re the one who needs to get real.

  • John in Amherst

    There have been blacks who have come forth to state that Zimmerman was not racist in his day-to-day life.  Taking them at their word, let’s leave race out of the picture for a minute. 
    What is left is a guy who was armed acting as an unsupervised undeputized cop who chased down a a kid.  The kid then may or may not have tried to defend himself (and who can blame the kid for defending himself against a guy who verbally harassed and had just chased him down?), and the kid winds up shot dead.  Sounds like a trial would be helpful to sort out what actually happened and maybe prevent a recurrence, and an arrest is what has to happen before a trial.  Guilt or innocence is to be determined.
    The Florida stand your ground law, plus guns in the hands of over-zealous untrained neighborhood watch volunteers almost guarantees this sort of thing will happen again.  Floridians might reconsider kowtowing to the NRA and revisit their gun regulations.  Even without this tragedy, their is the pending lunacy of the GOP convention in Tampa to illustrate my point, where local ordinances will prevent people outside the convention from carrying everything remotely resembling a weapon (even pepper spray or squirt guns).  Everything, that is, EXCEPT for a real gun, thanks to state right to carry laws, which preempt local laws.  WTF! 
    With their push for “right to carry” laws, the NRA would see us return to “frontier justice” days, when everyone had a six gun on their hips.  Their theory goes that people who are armed can defend themselves.  Unfortunately, it didn’t work that way in the old West.  It did little to deter acts of aggression, and only served to make them more likely to be lethal, especially given the per-capita alcohol consumption of the era.  It was not uncommon for towns of 10,000 to have a murder per week.  Right to carry + stand your ground = more carnage. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       People with carry licenses have a much better record than the average citizen.  There have been predictions for decades that allowing concealed carry will make blood run in the streets, and yet, that hasn’t happened.  You talk about the murder rate in this country, but those murders aren’t being committed by carry license holders in the vast majority of the cases.  They’re being committed often by people who aren’t legal gun owners to begin with.  When you look into the facts of gun ownership and carry, you’ll find that your narrative doesn’t fit real life.

      • John in Amherst

         actually, if you read what I wrote, I was citing stats from the late 1800′s. 
        For people to actually benefit from gun ownership in terms of personal safety, the gun must be loaded, easily accessible and the owner must both train in its use AND be willing to get it out and use it without hesitation.  Even having a gun on one’s person only makes one “safer” if one is willing to draw and fire first, which is a response that requires steady nerves and training most people lack.  How many accidental deaths, suicides and crimes like this Martin-Zimmerman fiasco are we willing to trade for how many instances of people actually detering or shooting a criminal caught in the act?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Just the knowledge, or suspicion, that someone is carrying a gun, or other weapon, has deterred criminals from attacking them!

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           Suicide is a personal choice, so I don’t consider that in this discussion.  Accidents are a fact of life.  In addition, it’s interesting that you’ve decided that the shooting of Martin is a crime.  What if it’s ruled a valid case of self defense?

          • John in Amherst

            Like I said, picture yourself as a kid walking in your new neighborhood when someone of another racial group follows you in an SUV, tells you “you don’t belong here”, gets out and starts to chase you.  Are you going to resist?  And then you get shot, and it’s self defense for the guy who chased you down?  My point IS let a jury decide.
            As for “accidents are a fact of life”, I am asking how many accidents – preventable accidents involving accidental discharge of a firearm, involving cases of mistaken identity – are we willing to trade for how many deterred attacks?  Civilized society has a police force to wield weapons against criminals.  The second amendment grants the right to bear arms in the context of maintaining a “well organized militia”.  Florida comes close to setting up a disorderly militia, a band of vigilantes, with its combo of carry laws, stand-your-ground, and laws & by laws setting up neighborhood watch programs.  Vigilante justice is an oxymoron. 

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             No, the Second Amendment makes no requirement that a person belong to a militia.  The militia is the explanation, but the right stands on its own.

            But where are you getting this chase business?  You’re reading a lot into the account that isn’t quite there.

          • John in Amherst

             Listen to the 911 tapes, where Zimmerman says he is pursuing and the PD say “We don’t need you to do that”

  • Bruce Pfeiffer, Jr.

    I think that the law, which allowed Zimmerman to walk away from this crime in the first place, had the effect which was hoped for by the formers of that law.

  • Lynne

    It is easy enough to feel one is on the side of right in this case when race is added to fuel the fire of all prejudices – white and black.
    But a look at the stand your ground laws reveal another side to the story of crime in America – that often victims are treated as criminals and must endure prosecution for simply protecting their goods and family. 
    To say stand your ground is catagorically bad is to refuse to look at why it was implemented.  How should states deal with those who are really victimized and left with no recourse but police departments that are understaffed and underfunded?  Or, what about police departments that are forbiden from using force themselves (as even pepper spraying students at California colleges is deemed “too harsh”).
    A question that is not looked at is why there is such a need for neighborhood watch groups.
    No system is perfect yet to vaccilate between one extreme (self defense is unacceptable) to another (a person can act with impunity) and to suggest that any one incident should determine the full extent of our laws is willfull ignorance on everyone’s part – no matter which “side” you land on.

  • Snowbirdj

    Esteban – NPR Does deserve congratulations, for their reporting on this case.  It seems that the “Yellow” one is Zimmerman.  He is a low down dirty coward, who gunned down a UNARMED boy!  THUG?  You and your kind are the THUGS!  The dimise of the Black Family you speak of is better discribed as the organized attack against the Black Family.  I am thankful that at least the Martin family will get a chance to see the coward stand in court and attempt to tell his lies to a jury and a judge, and the world.  I am a professional, law abiding citizen, but I am driven to RAGE, when I hear about this case.  It is pathetic that this family had to lose their son, because of this cowards prejudice.  I don’t care what the defense says against this family, we all KNOW their strength, and pain.  They are far better than me, because I just don’t think I could call for calm if my child had been stalked and gunned down.  I WOULD WANT BLOOD! 

    • Esteban

      Ever think that they (his family) knew the thug-nature of their child… yes, we all want justice and accountability. Yes, they are saddened and hurt. Yes, they are grieving. Perhaps, they are also wondering what more they could have, should have done. Cold blood, hardly–Treyvon attacked and was kicking the crap out of Zimmerman, threatening to kill him that night or soon. For what, asking the kid what he was doing there, walking alone on a cold rainy night and unknown to the neighborhood where crimes have been occurring??? Sorry dude, but anyone has a right to ask another “what’s up?” But that does not give Treyvon the right to assault and beat Zimmerman. If one attacks another, then the consequences are theirs to bear… or never bring a knife or fists to a gun fight…

      And why are you lashing at me… just presenting the rest of the story. The problem is NPR and ON POINT tried very hard to not present it as such… even Sen Smith and the Orlando lawyer know there is a lot more to the story than what was presented and tried to bring these facts into play.

      Yep–you want blood. Very mature and intellectual!

      • Modavations

        Thank You dude!!!!

      • TFRX

        Don’t you mean: Never bring fists to a gun fight with a self-appointed trigger-happy dumbwit wannabe cop on a power trip?

        • Esteban

          That would be another to look at it… but the mantra still remains true…

          Think anyone walks up and accosts/threatens/attacks Bernie Goetz anymore? Nope… He proved this true…

        • Robert Riversong

          You must be referring to the trained, licensed and approved Neighborhood Watch volunteer, with a life-long history of helping others in need, including blacks and black youth, who was attending criminal justice school so that he could have a career as a responsible police offer?

          That guy?

          • Anonymous

            You conveniently forgot to included “armed” among your adjectives. Against neighborhood-watch policy.

      • Anonymous

        What steps to protect yourself would you take if confronted by an armed stalker?  

        • Esteban

          All depends on the situation, and these are the facts to be brought forth…

          If the weapon was flashing out and exposed (which I doubt), is one thing…

          Just because a man followed this young man to inquire about his business in the area, whether armed or unarmed, is a completely different matter…

          You write as if Zimmerman was a crazed lunatic brandishing his weapon and chasing down Treyvon with intent purely to harm… hardly the case…

      • Modavations

        Now you’re hypothesizing.Let the case run it’s course.Everything is hearsay until presented in court.

        • Esteban

          Very very true… you are absolutely correct!!!

    • Modavations

      Will let you shot him after he is convicted by a jury of his peers.Will this soothe you?

    • Robert Riversong

      Of course, anyone who says “You and your kind” is, by definition, racist or otherwise bigoted. 

      What do we know about Zimmerman? That in high school he was known to befriend blacks and Asians, that he was known to protect kids from bullies, that he stood up for a homeless black man who was beaten by a policeman’s son who was not charge, that he spent quality time with the autistic son of a neighbor, and that he mentored two black teens when he was studying criminal justice in college.

      Yup, must be a racist coward. That you would “want blood’ indicates that you are the true threat to society. 

  • Modavations

    Ok kids,firstly go reread “To Kill A Mockingbird”.Secondly,Mr Holder your biases,your praising of the racist Rev. Al(my opinion)skews the scales of Justice.Same for you Mr.President.Att.Gen Holder is turning the DOJ into the Dept.of Social Justice

    • Mary

      It’s quite evident Mr. “Modavations,” that you are a racist, a white one. I am white but intelligent enough to realize we all really came from the same place in ancient history. Do you know that you have some of the same genes as “them”? You do have, and your stuck with them. Why not spend you time learning history? There are many good and nice “blacks” and one shouldn’t judge all by the ones that aren’t good. Yes, it hurts that our taxes go to incarcerate the bad, but until the entire “black” (I hate that word, why do we have to use a color to ID a race?) race turn themselves around we are helpless. 

      • Modavations

        Young lady,there is little I don’t know.As you appear clairvoyent,would you please pick me a stock.My name is Frederick Douglas Manning

        • Robert Riversong

          “there is little I don’t know”

          That’s almost funny, since I have found you to be one of the most consistently ignorant people on this forum.

          But I suppose that’s the definition of ignorance: one who thinks he already knows it all.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Why are you unconcerned over the existant slavery in Mauretania?  How silly you leftists are with you empty accusations of racism. Drivel

        • Anonymous

           Talk about drivel. Mauretania? Really? How terrible of anyone, to be concerned with conditions in their own country and not be equally concerned with Mauretania. I’m so ashamed.

      • Brett

        “until the entire “black”…race turn[s] themselves around we are helpless.”
        Not sure what you mean by that. Would you explain? 

  • Jacob625

    jacob625:
     
    Zimmerman has accountability for what he’s done.
     
    Shoot and kill or shoot to detain or refrain?
    There was no reason for Zimmerman to kill Trayvon, he is not a police officer he should have no right to have such power. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      What if Zimmerman is telling the truth and Martin was beating him?  Would that change your opinion?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        No, their minds are made up…never to be confused with facts.

      • Anonymous

        What steps would you or Jason_A take to protect yourself if you were confronted by an armed stalker?

        • Modavations

          Your honor,there is no proof of stalking.The prosecution is leading the witness
          Att:Moda… sustained

          • Anonymous

            Counsel, you don’t get to decide what the facts are. Sit down and stop making a fool of yourself in front of the jury who does decide the facts. 

            If your comment was an objection, it’s overruled.

          • Brett

            Facts are those which have been established not those which have been presumed. Sorry, Jimino, but, I have to go with Mo-D on that one. Zimmerman’s actions have not been clearly established, aside from the fact that he shot and killed Martin. 

          • Anonymous

             Boy, that’s some action.

          • Azra

            We KNOW that fact, because we have heard Zimmerman’s phone call to 911, saying that he was tailing Traymont. The FACT that it was Zimmerman’s voice has been confirmed. After that, he was told to get back into his car. Remember?

            If you think that it was just another one of Zimmerman’s lies, we also heard Traymont’s girlfriend back up Zimmerman’s claim that he was stalking the child.

          • Robert Riversong

            Trayvon must be thrilled that you can’t even bother with such simple facts as his real name.

            Nothing you say is backed up by the available evidence. 

        • Anonymous

           They’d wait to get “all the facts.”

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           Everything I’ve heard says that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun out until he was knocked down onto the concrete.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Never introduce reason and objectivity…or fairness, into the upside down world of leftist delusion. Their minds have been made up…long ago. They piously presume to know the facts when in reality they know NOTHING but their own biases and anti-white prejudice.

        • Anonymous

           Oops. sounds like another opinion to me. Shame, shame.

        • Robert Riversong

          The convenient non-argument of the ignorant and the bigoted. Free-thinking people, including whites, must be “anti-white” if they ever support a black cause, just as Jews must be antisemitic if they ever question Israel.

      • Azra

        From the little bit the public knows about the case, (what we have seen of Zimmerman, immediately after the murder), and heard him say, (both prior to and after Trayvon’s death,) what is the liklihood of that?

        Watch the video. Zimmerman didn’t have so much as a dangling button; no torn clothing, no blood, no marks on his body, face, (in spite of his swollen, broken, bloody nose, and black eyes, which would still be evident to this day), or clothing. His story is not at all logical, or believable by anyone with any analytical ability, or common sense.

        • ana

          In fairness, it has been reported that   Zimmerman received first aid at the scene so was cleaned up before seen on camera.
          Much of the outrage seems to have been perpetrated by the media who portrayed Martin as just walking along and shot in cold blood.  It all escalated from there even as more facts came out.  And yes, the issue is that no arrest was made.
          I suspect that Zimmerman will do no jail time.  Nothing can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt with Martin dead.

        • Robert Riversong

          You mean from the little bit that you’ve bothered to learn. From what is publicly available, Zimmerman has a long history of helping and standing up for blacks – even in the face of police inaction.

          And there is overwhelming evidence of injuries to Zimmerman consistent with his story, which was also corroborated by most witnesses.

    • Robert Riversong

      Whatever one might believe about the ethics of the case, the fact remains that in Florida Zimmerman DID have the legal right, and that’s why the DA refused to press manslaughter charges.

  • Azra

    From just the little bit we know about the murder, there are enough facts to keep Zimmerman in prison for the rest of his life.

    We already know about Zimmerman’s police record. We know that he wasn’t a registered vigilante; he was self-appointed. We know that it’s also against the law for anyone supposedly involved in a neighborhood watch to carry a gun. We know that the Police ordered him not to get out of his car, yet he did as he pleased. We know that he was stalking his victim, who called his girlfriend to tell her how frightemed he was, because a stranger was following him. He feared for his life.

    We have already heard enough lies told by Zimmerman. He said that Trayvon looked suspicious, and could be “on drugs or something”. We know that Trayvon was just on his way back from the store, minding his own business, and was gunned down just yards from his front door! He said that Trayvon attacked him. It would be expected that someone who feared for his life, would fight for his life, but no one in that position would have started a fight. He just wanted to go home, with his family, where he would finally be safe. There was no evidence that Zimmerman was in a fight. We saw the video taken of him just moments after the murder. He looked as if he was ready for a night on the town; there was no oozing blood anywhere, not even a bandage. There were no swellings, discolorations, cuts, or abrasions, as there would have been if he was in a fight. He walked normally, at a normal pace, with no limp. It also seems that the broken nose he was whining about, miraculously healed before he was taken to the police station. If his nose really had been broken that night, it would still be swollen, and 2 black eyes would still be very visible. More than likely, the gushing blood from his nose would be on his clothing; during a fight, he would have been unable to take a break, in order to hold a handkerchief to his nose for an hour or so. He said that Trayvon put a hand in his waistband, (also a natural response, IF Trayvon had a gun – unfortunately, he didn’t – and was neing threatened as he was), which would have been impossible. Trayvon was holding a phone up to his ear; he was also carrying candy and tea. There is no reason to believe that Trayvon had more than 2 hands.

    No doubt, even more evidence, and lies, will come out during the trial.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      You know NONE of the real facts, unless you are the prosecutor. The silly leftist mob who has already tried, found guilty and want to hang Zimmerman completeliy disregards the Constitution and the PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE.

      Ever here of that concept??

      • Anonymous

        The Constitution does not apply to personal opinion. It’s why we’re on this forum. None of us get to send ANYONE to jail with our opinions. PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE applies only to criminal justice proceedings. I haven’t heard anyone claim that the criminal justice system should not be allowed to work.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          One would assume that intelligent people would apply the same standard of presumption of innocence. Only a MOB rules by personal opinion and phony indignation.

          • Anonymous

            What mob is “ruling” what? Are you actually telling me that you have never formed an opinion about anything in your entire life until every conceivable bit of evidence was laid before you? If so, when did you decide all the evidence was in? And I’ll ask again. If opinion is invalid, why the HELL are we on this forum.

          • Robert Riversong

            As a 60-year-old life-long social justice activist, I believe the black and left communities made a very poor strategic decision to focus a national campaign on this incident, since there is not good evidence of a racial bias or of police misconduct.

            They should have focused on the Kenneth Chamberlain Sr. murder-by-police that has demonstrable racial overtones, and which went far longer before the wheels of justice began turning.

          • Anonymous

             I must disagree with you on the issue of the  police department’s handling of this incident. Or the D.A. . Or whoever was in charge of the decision making process. As far as I’m concerned, Zimmerman’s ideas about race, whatever they  might be, are wholly irrelevant. I couldn’t be less interested than I am. Too much has been focused on this aspect of the case. He was just a jerk with a gun. But I know in my bones and because I live in the real world that if Martin had been a seventeen year old white teenager, Zimmerman would have been arrested and held. This is where the injustice lies. Many would disagree, but I couldn’t be less interested in that, either.

          • Anonymous

            The presumption of innocence is a legal concept that applies to court proceedings in a criminal prosecution AFTER THE PERSON HAS BEEN ARRESTED, CHARGED, AND IS ON TRIAL, not when deciding whether to arrest and investigate their suspected criminal acts.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            To you leftists, sir, Zimmerman has ALREADY been tried, and assumed to be guilty. All you folks lack, besides reason, is the physical ability to HANG him from the nearest tree. Do you not see the HYPOCRISY in your thinking???

          • Anonymous

            Please stop posting those terrible “opinions.” You’ve already told us they’re not allowed here.

          • Anonymous

            He’s been charged with a crime.  That’s all. And that is clearly what was warranted.  Your “side” vehemently opposed even having our court system involved.  What happens will depend on our legal system sorting things out, just like millions of similar cases handled every day.

          • Anonymous

             You clearly must be one of those terrible LIBERALS Jason_A despises so much. How dare you turn to the criminal justice system? How can you possibly fail to realize that an opinion about guilt is the same as a declaration of guilt.

          • Robert Riversong

            You repeat this mantra endlessly, as if repetition makes a falsehood  true.

            I am a lifelong “leftist” who has been one of the most vocal on the web in defense of Zimmerman as a person and in this incident as one who did not appear to act with any malice or race consciousness.

            While I, too, do not condone the black community’s response to this incident, I have noted that the right has been even more egregious in jumping to conclusions, making threats (very real ones), and being irrational and irresponsible.

    • Robert Riversong

      “little bit we know” is right, since everything you claim to know is contradicted by the published evidence.

      Zimmerman’s police record of “violence” is pushing an undercover alcohol agent who was in a bar to make a sting on underage drinkers (GZ was not underage), and dueling restraining orders between him and his ex-girlfriend who both claimed they had been battered (a common occurrence in domestic cases).

      There’s no such thing as a “registered vigilante”, but Zimmerman had undergone police training for Neighborhood Watch and was studying criminal justice.

      It’ not “against the law” to carry a gun on Neighborhood Watch, just against the organization’s policy.

      The police never “ordered” Zimmerman to stay in his car and not follow Martin, the dispatcher merely said “we don’t need you to do that”.

      Trayvon was already on the phone with his girlfriend when Zimmerman noticed him, so he didn’t call to say how frightened he was.

      Trayvon wasn’t “was just on his way back from the store, minding his own business”, according to Zimmerman he was wandering slowly and apparently aimlessly in the rain, avoiding streets and sidewalks, and looking at buildings. That neighborhood had experienced eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting in 2011 alone, and an influx of young male strangers.

      It would not be “expected that someone [Trayvon] who feared for his life, would fight for his life”. If he was afraid of the stranger, he much more likely would have gone straight home.

      There was overwhelming evidence that Zimmerman had been in a fight: the police report noted a cut and swollen lip, a bloody nose and gashes on the back of the head; he was treated at the scene by paramedics, and the police took pictures of the injuries.

      And Trayvon was not “holding a phone up to his ear” during the fight. His girlfriend clearly stated that it sounded as if the headset had come off and the phone then went dead.

      So, every single part of your story is complete fiction. Which means than any opinion you have about this incident is wrong.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

    Last weekend in Chicago, and this occurs nationally every day, YOUNG BLACK MEN murdered each other to the number of 10. A year ago a YOUNG BLACK MALE (and gangster) murdered 2 white male British tourists…and not one word was heard in the national media.

    How is it possible that black people are COMPLETELY blind to this daily reality?? I submit that it is in fact black racism against whites.

    • Modavations

      Because the Dept.of Justice is now the Dept.of Social Justice.Because the Dem.Party needs the poor right where they are,dependent.You want your check,then you better vote Dem…The modus operandi of the Left is keeping poor people poor

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        How about a culture of violence and ignorance, which is the real factor in keeping poor people poor. Acting white is a slur.

        • Modavations

          “No daddies” is the real culprit

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            True…that and many others.But taking personal responsibility is never considered as valid.

          • Robert Riversong

            You mean no “good” daddies like you.

      • Robert Riversong

        That must be why poverty and homelessness skyrocketed under Reagan.

    • Anonymous

       Was the young black man arrested?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        You completely MISSED the point….

        • Anonymous

          What is the point?  That you know how to search the internet for news?  That adult Blacks kill unarmed teenage Whites and it’s not news?  Really, what is the point?

        • Anonymous

           NO. There’s no point for me to miss. You and others keep trying to make this an issue of “black on White” crime, which has nothing to do with this case. It’s a case of a man shooting a kid and getting away with it, with hardly a second look by law enforcement. How a young black man killing two white kids is related to a Hispanic man shooting a black kid and not being arrested for it is a mystery to me. I’ll ask again. If the young black killer of those white kids was arrested, how does that story relate in any way to the events in the trayvon Martin case. ?

          • notafeminista

            It was 4 black men and a white woman who killed two unarmed innocent kids who apparently committed the crime of being on a date.  Where is the national outcry? Read the article.

          • notafeminista

            Correction: 4 black men and a black woman.  Apologies for the error.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Exactly. Thanks for bringing some rationality and BALANCE to the discussion.

          • Anonymous

             I’ll ask you the same question I asked the wizardess above. Please tell me how anything you’ve posted about the events in Chicago are related to the Trayvon Martin case.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            The comparison is obvious and anything I could say here would:
            1. Not change your mind..which is already made up. and,
            2. Would require a better forum for a discussion than allowed here. Sorry you cannot see the obvious.

          • Anonymous

             Nice try.

          • Anonymous

            Maybe Zimmerman’s defense team will get him off by citing instances of terrible, black criminality in Chicago, Il. Why not? You obviously see a connection. Maybe you can consult on the case. You could set a new legal precedent. INNOCENCE BY REASON OF ACTIONS TAKEN BY PEOPLE TWO THOUSAND MILES AWAY. Sounds like a winner.

          • notafeminista

            Intellectually dishonest.  If your statement were actually true, Jesse Jackson, Rev. Al Sharpton, Spike Lee, the New Black Panther Party would have all stayed home and the poor folks who were wrongly assumed to be relations of George Zimmerman’s would have been left to mind their own business.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Well said. A simple fact which the leftists are ALWAYS blind to, or simply ignore. Such HYPOCRISY!

          • Anonymous

            Pleas tell me how events in Chicago have anything to do with the Trayvon Martin case

          • notafeminista

            Please tell me what relevancy Spike Lee has to the Sandford case.

          • Anonymous

             That’s three times I’ve seen you use Spike Lee. I don’t usually use texting abbreviations, but, LOL.

    • notafeminista
      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Thanks, that is my point. You will never find black on white crime sensationalized in the US media. No marching, no CNN screaming racism, no criminal thug gangs called the Black Panthers making threats of violence, none of the “No Justice No Peace” threats, none of the professional race baiters:  Sharpton and Jackson exploiting the situation for their personal gain.

        If blacks are so very concerned about slavery why are there no marches against the actual SLAVERY that exists TODAY in the African nation of Mauretania??

        If black were so concerned about slavery they would be marching to end it there. Instead, it is much more politically convenient to beat whites over the head (continuously) over slavery in the US, which ended over 150 years ago.

        • Anonymous

          I understand.  You oppose free speech.

          Who’s stopping you from bringing public attention to what you complain about?  Or maybe it’s beneath you to publicly state your views, preferring to bitch in private.  It looks like you could get the start of a crowd from your like-minded souls on this site.  I’ll be on the lookout for the story in the news.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Here is a relevation for ya:  2 + 2 is 4. Not 89658 as you would make it by your leftist proclivity to take an opposing statement and draw it to the extreme, and not one intended by the author, to make your silly point.  And you failed. Again.

        • Jcox713

          Look. I’ll tell you how to KNOW a race crime.  I am a white 39 year old female who was knocked unconscious by a black man walking past me.   We KNOW it was a race crime because he yelled racial epithets at me and said out loud “I’m gonna hit any cracker I see tonight.” He then proceeded to hit a latino man in the face while chanting Obama’s name.  Now that is pretty obviously racially motivated, right?   I am sick of hearing people who either automatically yell racism in this case, or others who simply agree with this notion without being asked to PROVE it was racism. How the hell does anyone KNOW what Zimmerman’s motive was?  Maybe he simply thinks ALL  teens are punks. Maybe he just doesn’t trust YOUNG BOYS. Maybe he just wanted to kill someone, anyone that day. Stop knee-jerking with accusations of racism.  It simply shows people’s lack of objective thinking abilities. 

          • Jcox713

            …And I left out the other possibility: maybe Zimmerman truly IS racist against blacks.  The point is WE DON’T KNOW YET and we may NEVER KNOW.  Everyone needs to apply some basic objectivity before alwasys rushing to predetermined conclusions.

          • Robert Riversong

            “How the hell does anyone KNOW what Zimmerman’s motive was?  Maybe he simply thinks ALL  teens are punks.” 

            What appears to be the case is that Zimmerman befriended blacks and Asians in high school, protected kids from bullies, spent quality time with his neighbor’s autistic child, and mentored two black teens when he was in college.

            Sound like an egotistical racist?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Why not try to answer the facts as presented by Jcox713 instead of lapsing into your leftist diatribe?

          • Anonymous

             Leftist opinion: Diatribe                       Your opinion: Reasoned, deliberate, objectivity. Nyuk, nyuk. Guffaw, guffaw. Tee hee.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            The accusation of racism is the FIRST refuge of simple minded leftists. Once that charge is hurled, somehow they think that is all they have to say…for some idiotic reason. They cannot continue a rational argument after that accusation and sink ito adolescent insults.

          • Anonymous

             Hey, asshole. “SIMPLE MINDED LEFTIST” is an adolescent insult. Thanks for the rational argument. Welcome to the club.

        • Robert Riversong


          If blacks are so very concerned about slavery why are there no marches against the actual SLAVERY that exists TODAY in the African nation of Mauretania??”

          Um…because black Americans can’t walk on water?

          And if you think slavery ended in America 150 years ago, you haven’t been living in America.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Leftist propaganda and drivel.

          • Anonymous

             Is that a cut and paste, or a copy and paste?

        • Anonymous

           Maybe it’s because black Americans are concerned with life in their own country. You know, America. I wonder if you think all white Americans must be concerned with the lives of every other white person in the world in order to be concerned with justice.

    • Anonymous

      If they were all allowed to go home without being arrested, you might have a point.  If not, your comment is just evidence of your lack of intelligence and ability to engage in logical thought process.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Leftist nonsense, and you have proven my point exactly. Thanks!

        • Anonymous

          So were they all allowed to go home without being arrested, or not?  If not, just what is your point, as it applies to this story?

          • Anonymous

            He doesn’t have a point as it applies to this story. That’s why all he can do is blather on about black crime, as if the two were related.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            They are implicitly related. Only reality denying leftist hypocricy does not see it.

          • Anonymous

             Instead of telling me they’re connected, try telling me HOW they’re connected. I’m begging you to enlighten me.

          • Robert Riversong

            It’s a relief to know that hypocrisy inflicts only half the population.

        • Anonymous

          I think I just figured out your reasoning. Tell me if I’m wrong. “Hispanic” man shoots “black” teenager in FLORIDA. This is obviously related to the killing of “white” people by “black” criminals in CHICAGO. This obviously means… um….we know that… ahh… I mean. Oh, never mind. Your thought process is far too complex for my meager powers of comprehension.

    • Esteban

      They are numb and blind…

  • notafeminista

    This is why race is most often identified by color. Well-meaning racially motivated leftists frequently get it wrong….
     
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204369404577207252177326914.html

  • Anonymous

    If  Trayvon had a gun, legally or not, would he have been within his rights to shot Zimmerman if he reasonably perceived him as an armed stalker?   The kid would be a hero to Jason_A, Moda, and their ilk, if I understand their thinking (and I use that term loosely) on this subject.

    • Modavations

      If the gun is illegal he’s got problems.If not,it will be decided by a jury of peers

      • Anonymous

        But the 2nd Amendment gives kids the right to carry guns, doesn’t it? 

        • Modavations

          2nd amendment allows the peeps too keep guns to defend against the  Putsch

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          The 2nd Amendment needs to be abolished. It has been perveted and co-opted by the right wing gun lovers and the NRA and their Congressional whores.

          • Still Here

            You say this in a time when the government’s actions are more suspicious then ever before and personal freedom more at risk.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            I say this in a time when the gun nuts, the NRA and its paid off whores in Congress want guns everywhere. Societal suicide.

          • Robert Riversong

            Abolished, or returned to it’s original intent: to arm citizen militias, controlled by the several states, as a bullwark against either invasion or the usurpation of power by the central government.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            That is why I said perverted and co-opted.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      No quite wrong…you certainly do NOT understand my thinking, and I think you leftists are quite incapable of doing so. Besides, petty insults get you nowhere. If I ran the world, nobody would have a gun, ever.

      You folks are so laugable and so very predictable…you use the first name of your ordained victim…Treyvon…were you friends? Why do you feel that you are on a first name basis? And you use the last name of yoru ordained villan…Zimmerman. Such adolescent nonsense.

    • Robert Riversong

      No. Perceiving of someone as potentially threatening is insufficient to fall within the SYG law, you must have “a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm”.

      Imminent means immediate and inescapable.

      • Anonymous

         I don’t know about you, but a gun would certainly fit that criteria for me. I’ve never been approached by a gun wielding individual at night. Since I’m no hero, I’m quite sure I’d be scared almost to death. I might even try to defend myself. All the people here who claim that there’s no evidence to prove that Zimmerman had his gun out, fail to grasp the fact that there’s no proof that he didn’t. Given the way the whole thing transpired, by what reasonable rationale do we decide to give the benefit of the doubt to the nut who followed Martin after he was told not to, and then killed him? Even if we like George Zimmerman, don’t we owe the dead person a little more consideration than the man who killed him?

  • Modavations

    The tolerant Left,the Open Minded Left,the new Lynch Mob.You guys make honest men puke

    • Robert Riversong

      Well if you are what passes for “honest” these days, let’s hope you choke on your vomit.

  • leftofcenter

    This case will be a circus. The right wing will turn Zimmerman into the “Poster Boy for the God Given Right to Carry a Gun”. Nobody is going to have a factual and rational discusssion about race in 2012. Instead, rampant racism and trolls cutting each other down.

    • William

      The left has gone into overdrive inflame emotions. That cheap shot NBC News took with editing the 911 tape was really low, even for them.

      • Esteban

        And was it ABC who butchered the video and the other audio…

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Exactly. An only showing Martin as an innocent teenager, which he may have been, was meant to portray his as TOTALLY innocent and a VICTIM of the white man. BS

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      Well said.

    • Robert Riversong

      You’re exaggerating. I’ve found two “factual and rational” discussions about this case, and I published a third: Justice for All? at http://nationdiscussion.ning.com/forum/topics/justice-for-all?

  • leftofcenter

    Corey’s obviously lying when she says that politics plays no role in this case. Really? How much does she get paid to say stuff like that?

    • Robert Riversong

      $150,076.92 (2008) base pay. She may get a bonus this year for averting a riot.

  • sdp

    It seems to me that all the callers on the show are white males who defend Zimmerman and defend the Stand Your Ground law…They are also probably men who don’t have children themselves.

  • Brett

    I am glad this case did not go to the grand jury for several reasons (okay, at least for more than one, anyway). For one, it was not necessary if the special prosecutor had reviewed the evidence and had decided there was no case for murder one (which is what seems to be the case). Secondly, if it had gone to the grand jury the outcome would have been made public but testimony in the proceedings would have been sealed. If the outcome had seemed unfair to people, then there would have been another media circus about what transpired during the grand jury hearing (which would not have been a good thing). As it stands, the prosecutor can not take political cover; she has to now take ownership of the proceedings on her own (if it had gone to a grand jury she could have distanced herself somewhat from the proceedings/outcome).

    I hope the trial will be closed to the media and the general public. The transcripts of the trial would still be made public, I believe, which would at least satisfy reasonable people if the outcome of the trial in and of itself does not quite resonate as fair. I, for one, would like to know the particulars of the trial, presuming it actually goes to trail (which is still not absolutely clear). 

    I am also glad that Zimmerman got a new lawyer. The first two lawyers weren’t doing him any favors, and they may have even breached attorney-client privilege. The last thing any murder trial needs is a defendant not being represented as aggressively as is possible in his/her own best interest by his/her attorney.

    I was a bit surprised by the murder two charge. My guess is that they are going to get him to plead down to manslaughter and that this is somewhat a tactic. It is not uncommon (perhaps a later discussion could be about the flaws/merits of the plea bargain system/the practicality of the plea bargain system). However, the special prosecutor didn’t have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt of murder two, she just needed to have a reasonable amount of evidence to indicate Zimmerman may have committed murder two (to bring charges).

    Also, Zimmerman is not doing himself any favors by putting up his own website and trying to redeem himself in the court of public opinion. I hope his lawyer puts a stop to that right away or at least has Zimmerman clear everything with him first.

    If I were Zimmerman and I were not guilty of murder, I would want my case heard by a judge instead of a jury (his right). If I were  guilty, I’d go with a jury of my peers.

      

    • Robert Riversong

      90% of criminal cases in the US are settle by plea bargain, to avoid the cost of a jury trial. It’s the way the system plays its game.

      If you checked out Zimmerman’s website, he reveals almost nothing about either him or this incident. He’s merely asking for emotional and financial support. 

  • Brett

    I saw a couple of comments in which sentiments were about the court deciding innocence or guilt…

    Our judicial system does not decide between innocence or guilt, nor will a jury/judge find anyone innocent. A person can not be found innocent; he/she can only be found guilty or not guilty. One can not prove innocence, only that he/she is not guilty of the crime for which he/she has been arrested and brought to trial.

    • Robert Riversong

      In fact, the court system does not have to prove a defendant guilty of a crime, but only guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And that too often leads to the innocent being punished – even with execution – for crimes they did not commit.

  • TomK in Boston

    Geez, seems I was censored. So, to repeat as gently as possible: I’m more concerned with the process than the right or wrong. I’m not taking sides. Taking a life is a very serious matter. I don’t want an individual to be able to take a life and face less scrutiny than a cop on the job or a soldier under the RoI. We need a better process. There shouldn’t be any conversations in the USA like “Officer, I just killed this man. Was it self-defense? Yep. OK sir, you’re free to go. Have a nice day, and don’t forget your weapon.” 

  • Tom Kirkman

    I believe the action of charging George Zimmerman was a political move designed to head off the riots that would have occurred from those who decided long ago that “justice” means Zimmerman must be guilty. Better to arrest him and let the facts come out in the court than risk riots from a mostly uninformed public.

    The mainstream media’s many fabrications and obvious agenda (i.e. showing photos of an adult Zimmerman but a 12-year old Martin) are hardly worth basing judgement or opinion on.

    No doubt there are statements on file from the paramedics who were on the scene. The police report from the night of the incident contain 6 eye-witness accounts. This will all come out in court and those who truly desire justice must accept the truth of the actual facts and the resulting verdict. 

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      And never forget the threat:  no justice, no peace. Whatever point they have for justice, and they do indeed have valid points, their case is lost as long as it comes with a threat of violence. The thug culture at its finest.

    • Robert Riversong

      It was quite clearly a political move (Corey IS a political appointee of the governor) to placate the crowds demanding “justice”.

      And, while there has been publicized concern about
      Zimmerman’s poor judgement in speaking directly to Corey, the prosecutor said during her announcement that her team had made a promise to Trayvon’s parents. “Three weeks ago our prosecution team promised those sweet parents we would get answers to all of their questions, no matter where our quest for the truth led us. And it is that search for justice for Trayvon that has brought us to this night.”

    • Carolyn

      Yeah, riots…do you mean like the Tulsa race riots of 1921 where WHITE mobs burned and destroyed a prosperous black neighborhood and killed many black residents?   If Martin was a white kid, we would not be having this discussion because Zimmerman would have been arrested the night of the murder.

  • Anonymous

    Please. PLEASE. Someone. ANYONE. Tell me why the issue of black-on-white crime has hijacked the thought process of so many people here. This case is about a young black man shot and killed by a Hispanic man. Depending on how one looks at Zimmerman’s racial make-up, there isn’t even a “white” man involved. The national outcry wasn’t about what Zimmerman did, as bad as that was. It was about what the police DIDN’T do. They didn’t arrest him. I’ll say it again for the slow people. The outrage was Not about black-on-white crime. It was NOT about white-on-black crime. It was not a case of whose worse, black criminals or white criminals. It was a case of unequal justice under the law. The police let Zimmerman walk. People can feel however they wish about that. That can be a debate worth having. But all the folks who whine about this being turned into a racial issue, and then turn it into a racial issue with their stupid “Black crime is worse than white crime” foolishness need to get a clue.

    • Tom Kirkman

      You’re missing something here. The police must have evidence that a crime has been committed in order to make an arrest. Apparently they did not have such evidence against Zimmerman. He was taken into custody (in handcuffs) and detained for questioning at the police station. After several hours of questioning him and several eye witnessess, he was released.

      We may find that the police should have arrested him. Or we may find that they did exactly as they should have. Until the facts come out in court, all this talk is simply premature and of no importance.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        You got it!

      • Anonymous

         I’m not missing anything. As you’ll note if you read my comment again, I said it was a debate worth having. The only point of my comment was to question the motives of all the deep thinkers on this forum who insist on turning this into an issue about what’s worse, black crime or white crime. Just wait. Now I’m sure someone will provide a link  to another black crime having nothing to do with this case.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          It is not a debate worth having if you know nothing of the facts of the case. If you ignore leftist delusion, you have nothing.

          • Anonymous

             I’m starting to think you don’t even know what a fact is. FACT: Zimmerman was told not to follow. FACT: He did anyway. FACT: Zimmerman killed Martin. FACT: Zimmerman has been indicted on charges of 2nd degree murder. I guess you don’t consider these “facts” to be enough to warrant an opinion or even an arrest, but I certainly do. Now you can go on one of your stupid rants about declaring guilt without the facts, when what people really want is accountability before the law. You know, a trial maybe. Ooh, what a horrible injustice that would be. A courtroom is no place to seek justice.

          • Esteban

            Following him is not illegal…

            Between FACT #2 and FACT #3, you failed to mention that MARTIN attacked ZIMMERMAN physically (assault) and threatened his life both verbally and physically. ZIMMERMAN shot MARTIN to save his own life.

            You sort of left out these facts which are key to the sequence. Still think Murder 2 will stick. I don’t… overcharged. Prosecutor screwed this one up. Casey Anthony v2.0…

          • Anonymous

             Everything I presented is a FACT, regardless of how you or I feel about them. I’m not imagining that any of those things happened. They DID happen. Your statements about what happened between the two men are pure conjecture. Neither one of us knows if Zimmerman pointed his gun at Martin. Neither one of us knows if Martin threatened Zimmerman verbally. Neither one of us knows if Martin was in fear for HIS life. You’ve just stated, categorically, that “ZIMMERMAN shot MARTIN to save his own life.” Boy, I can’t wait for Jason_A, Notafeminista, Greg Camp, and all those other champions of justice to light into you for your failure to wait for all the evidence to be in before passing judgement. Don’t you know we’re not supposed to have such opinions? Just ask them.

          • Esteban

            They have been tracking my comments as well… the information is out there, not conjecture… sorry. You just failed to notice, accept, or consider such… sort of like NBC and ABC editting out key pieces of audio and video… 

            All of this will come out at hearings and trial… murder two… nope!

            $2 bet, no conviction on murder two.

          • Anonymous

             My only interest is that he stands trial. Guilt or innocence is secondary. And I still await the condemnation, by all those Justice Leaguers, of your declaration of Georges innocence before all the facts are in.

          • Anonymous

             Boy, more than two hours later and I’m still waiting for Jason, et al, to condemn your early declaration of Zimmerman’s innocence. I guess their disdain for “jumping to conclusions” only goes in one direction. How noble of them.

          • Esteban

            Cannot condemn what is not true… never said he was innocent… only he did not commit murder two. He did shoot and kill the teen but it was in self-defense, or at least that is how the defense will spin and win this case…

            To quote House, “you’re just an idiot”

          • Anonymous

             If you don’t think your statement is one of those personal opinions the Justice League of America pretends to finds so reprehensible, You can rethink the quote by House.

          • Esteban

            No, pretty certain… you are anIDIOT… find the word innocent…

          • Esteban

            where did I say he is innocent BTW?

          • Anonymous

            “ZIMMERMAN shot Martin to save his own life.” Maybe you forget that statement. That would also be known as “self-defense.”

          • Esteban

            Sowhereis the word “innocent”… House is accurate–IDIOT

          • Anonymous

            I see.  What you believe happened are “the facts” and what I believe happened is conjecture.  Thank you for clearing that up for me. 

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            No, not at all. The difference between me, and you crazed leftists is that I have no idea about the facts of the case, and neither do you. I am waiting to learn more, with an open mind, you should try it.

        • Robert Riversong

          “I’m sure someone will provide a link  to another black crime having nothing to do with this case.”

          Or to another white crime, such as the murder of Emmet Til, that has nothing to do with this case.

      • Anonymous

        But now that a prosecutor has charged him with murder, can we accept as a fact that there must be enough evidence to support such a charge unless proven otherwise in court? Or do only decisions by the police have that weight and authority?

        • Robert Riversong

          No, what we can legitimately assume is that, in spite of the original police charge of  manslaughter which was rejected by the DA, the special prosecutor (a political appointee) caved into overwhelming pressure and brought a higher charge to keep the “tinder box” from igniting.

          I suspect she refused to empanel a grand jury because she was afraid they might not return an indictment and the state and nation would explode in outrage.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            The grand jury’s inditement would be determined by its racial make up.  Nothing more, or less.

          • Anonymous

             There we go. There’s some nice objectivity for you. Remember now. You can’t tell me you know the way of things. That would simply be some of that hateful “opinion” nonsense.

          • Karen Frances

            No, the only people who would explode are black rioters looking for a pretext to loot and attack people.

      • Michele

         If you have been following the story then you would know that the police did want to arrest and charge Zimmerman the evening of the event.  The state’s prosecutor declined to press charges.  The police did not believe Zimmerman’s story was credible and they stated so…

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      You should read more..and try to comprehend ALL of the facts and issues before issuing your royal leftist edicts.

      • Anonymous

         What facts would you like me to “comprehend?”

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          Try the facts of the case…which neither YOU nor I know…along with 99.999% of the rest of the population.  A little bit of patience, balance and rationality would do wonders for your position.

          • Anonymous

             Please tell me what erroneous facts I presented above or what conjecture I made about guilt. Please be very specific. I don’t see it. I’d sure be grateful if you could point it out for me. Quote me, if you wish.

          • notafeminista

            “It was a case of unequal justice under the law.  The police let Zimmerman walk.”

            You assume that because Zimmerman wasn’t arrested on the spot for what you perceive to be a heinous crime (without knowing a gram of Florida law) the police were not going to come back and arrest him later.   At best you are wildly unfamiliar with the workings of the criminal justice system.

          • Anonymous

             Ahem, the police DIDN’T come back and arrest him later. Not in an hour. Not in a day. Not in a month.  If they had, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Do you ever get tired of pretending that you’re clever?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            The central point of notafeminista’s comment is that you DO NOT know the facts of the case. You presume to know them, like all leftists, but in REALITY, and IN FACT, you know NOTHING. In the real world that is called:  JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS.

          • Anonymous

            No, in the real world that is called forming an opinion based on all the available evidence. We all do it, all the time. An opinion is not a conviction, as all you clowns like to charge those of us who are interested in justice with.

          • Esteban

            Soif you want to form anopinion, lookat ALL of the info out there… not just that from the View…

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Justice is never obtained by a MOB.

          • notafeminista

            I believe he is under arrest today is he not?

          • Anonymous

             Gee. I wonder why that would be. And it only took six weeks.

          • Brett

            She’ll, unfortunately, never tire of that!

    • notafeminista

      Intellectually dishonest and desperate backpedaling in light of facts that came to surface.

      • Anonymous

         What backpedaling? What new facts? Tell me what Martin’s parents have been asking for throughout this whole process. Think real hard and I’m sure you’ll come up with the answer. No one has made this more of a “racial” issue than all the dopes like you who think that providing links to horrendous crimes somehow proves something about this case. In the world I live in, criminal cases are judged on their own merits, not on a GOOGLE search. And if you believe that the shooting of one citizen by another citizen should be as cavalierly dismissed as this one was, when even police officers are held to a higher standard after a shooting, then you certainly have lived up to my expectations of you.

        • notafeminista

          So then tell me..why was Spike Lee tweeting innocent peoples’ home addresses to all the known universe?  What relevancy does he have to this case?  Be specific.

          No new facts…the media and assorted personalities made this about race – starting with the assumption that George Zimmerman is white.  Oops.

          • Anonymous

             What in the world makes you think I give a Rat’s Ass about Spike Lee? WTF does anything Spike Lee says have to do with what happened to Martin? I’ve never typed Spike Lee’s name in my life. You’ve done it at least twice today. Which of us is making it about Race?

          • notafeminista

            You didn’t answer the question.

          • Anonymous

             You asked for relevancy. I answered. I’m very sorry if you you can’t see it. Maybe you don’t know what WTF stands for. Use what little imagination you have. I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            More petty insults, which do not help your leftist cause. But then again, from what I see here, leftists ALWAYS resort to insults rather than defend their poisition rationally…which they cannot do.

          • Anonymous

             AH, Mr. kind -hearted, even tempered Jason_ A. Never launched an insult at the On Point Forum in his life. What a clod you are.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Thanks again for PROVING MY POINT!

          • fenster

            You are apparently color blind in this instance and if so bully for you.  But with all the talk about Emmett Till, including on this very program, please don’t tell me that Martin supporters have not done more than their share at racializing.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Exactly….someone speaks the truth in an upside down PC infested world.

    • Robert Riversong

      The question is why did Trayvon’s supporters turn this into a race issue, when there was no evidence of racial bias or profiling (Zimmerman has a long history or close relationships with blacks, including mentoring black teens), and why was Sanford turned into the “new Selma” with the New Panthers facing off against the New Socialists (neo-Nazi)?

      If this case was about justice and due process, then the black and liberal communities should have left it at that.

  • Kathy

    I am a person who is openly LGBt in Illinois-suburbs. Illinois has a stand your ground law (Wikipedia). I was assaulted and threatened by a White male (30′s) on my property. He was going to kill me. I feared for my life. I retreated into my home and called the police. When police arrived the individual was told “you are not desired on this property” and to leave. No arrest even though I wanted to press charges (tresp, assault, hate crime). Nothing. Police scolded me that I should not have come out of my house and that I have the burden to retreat even thought I was already at home.
     
    Point: I fully support stand your ground in these sorts of scenarios. People should have the right, when they are threatend to protect their life, property, pets and their family. 
     
    @ Martin case. I think many of us do not know all the facts.

    • vt indépendant

      Good for you.  I agree completely.  The fundamental question is are we free to protect ourselves or are we free to only to wait until the police manage to arrive on the scene (a unionized work force).  I don’t have a problem with providing police services (or unions), but there is a conflict of interest when a police officer can make such a comment to you.  I believe the constitution allows us to take care of ourselves.  The police are law and order, not extortion. 

    • Fail

      You are absolutely correct!  I sympathize with your inappropriate treatment at the hand of any Illinois “police” force.  

    • Azra

      Indeed! We all, (including Trayvon), have the right to defend ourselves, and our property. Armed aggresors, who threaten and intimidate us, cannot claim self-defense.

      Stalking of innocent children, while carrying a gun, doesn’t qualify as self defense, by any stretch of the imagination.

      • Robert Riversong

        First, there is no evidence of “stalking”, only of discreet following to determine a location to direct the police to. 

        Second, it’s disingenuous to call a 6′-1″ 150 lb teen a “child”, since he clearly had the physical power to batter Zimmerman.

        Third, the SYG law (whether we support it or not) does grant the right to use deadly force – even for an aggressor.

      • Mr. Happy

        From all the coverage I’ve seen, young Master Martin was far from innocent and a fair amount larger than Mr. Zimmerman.  Had he not attacked(if indeed he did attack)  Zimmerman then perhaps no one would have gotten shot. 
        If someone attacks me and they’re whacking my head on the sidewalk and I can reach my gun they’ve just won the Darwin award for the day.  And what color they are matters not.
        Lots of worthless blather here from a lot of people who weren’t there making judgements based on emotion.  Not logic, evidence, or common sense.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Unfortunately, since you live in Illinois, you have no ability to carry a gun legally.  Press your legislators for a concealed carry law.

  • Margaretjcampbell

    Former 911 operator… This is a failing of police dispatch… A known repeat caller who is armed and tracking someone against 911 advice is a priority 1 and required immediate response by officers and severe warning by 911 to the caller… Bad police work

    • notafeminista

      You’re aware of some delay in the dispatching of the call?

  • Stephen Beese

    George Zimmerman, as a Community Watch volunteer, probably did not undergo a very rigorous indoctrination/training process.  At the same time, the Second Amendment allows him to carry a concealed weapon.
    As a consequence of this combination, Zimmerman essentially became a de facto law enforcement officer, without having undergone the rigorous training and screening of that position.
    Community Watch organizations exist throughout the U.S, and this issue will arise again.  I believe that regulation of Community Watch organizations should be evaluated at a national level.

    • Robert Riversong

      First, the second amendment does NOT grant individuals the right to own firearms, let alone carry them concealed in public, except in the service of a state militia. The Court has unilaterally amended the Constitution in the same way it did when it granted corporations 14th amendment rights.

      Second, Zimmerman not only had training from the Sanford police department for Neighborhood Watch but was also studying criminal justice in preparation for a career as a police officer and possibly a judge.

      But I agree that the Neighborhood Watch program needs to be better trained and policed than it is.

      • Mr. Happy

        Sorry Bobby.  Supreme court has affirmed that the 2nd amendment does indeed apply to an individual right.   The government should fear the people and the only way to ensure that is that the populace be armed.  We’re already too far along the road of people fearing government.
        Or being dependent on it.

  • Brett

    Let us make a distinction between killing and murdering. Zimmerman killed Martin, we know that. We don’t know if Zimmerman murdered Martin.

    • Still Here

      What did the autopsy say?

      • Anonymous

         It said he’s dead.

        • Still Here

          Proving once again, you have no interest in the facts.

          • Robert Riversong

            Are you saying that Trayvon is really not dead?

          • Still Here

            Just looking for verification that it was Zimmerman that killed him.  I believe the autopsy is sealed as part of the investigation so you are free to speculate.

          • Anonymous

             Aye Caramba. Not even Zimmerman himself denies killing Martin. Remember the self-defense claim? My oh my, what COULD he have been referring to?

          • Anonymous

            How do we even know there really is a “Zimmerman”, or a “Trayvon”?  Have you seen their birth certificates? How do we really know there is even a “Sanford, Florida”?  We’ll just have to wait for the court to act before any real facts can be confirmed.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Futile!  I asked for the birth certificates of ALL the ‘citizen’ corporations, MONTHS ago!  Birth certificates are ONLY important if its absense proves narrow-minded views?

          • bellavida

            Oh yes the possibilities are endless..Martin may have died of an undiagnosed heart disorder and the loud shot that was fired kicked his heart into an arrhythmia and he died of a heart attack, or maybe he had an asthma attack & didn’t have his inhaler.   

          • Anonymous

            I’m looking for verification that you have half a brain.

    • bellavida

      Yes…am sure Martin appreciates the subtle distinction.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1155042916 Mike Hanson

    Interesting that you had a clip of Al Sharpton in your segment. Does he have plans on firebombing any Jewish clothing stores to celebrate?

    • Still Here

      I won’t be going to A&F or UO just in case.

    • Hidan

       5 likes? firebombing is reserved for white supremacist and Israeli settlers

      • RJS

        Do a search on Freddy’s Fashon Mart Mr Ignoramus.

  • C.P.

    It looks like the state of Florida caved into the threats and pressure from the race-baiters and haters on the left.

    • Karen Frances

      And the threat of riots for a free shopping day.  Disgusting.  

      • Anonymous

        No, what’s disgusting are your posts.

  • notafeminista
  • C.P.

    Is Attorney General Eric Holder going to prosecute the Black Panthers for putting a $10,000 dollar bounty out for George Zimmerman?

    Oh, that’s right, Holder’s Justice Dept. doesn’t prosecute Black on White or Black on Hispanic hate crimes.

    • Robert Riversong

      It’s true that Holder dismissed a DOJ voter’s rights act lawsuit against the NBPP which the Bush administration brought against the Philadelphia branch and the individuals caught on video intimidating voters by standing outside a polling place in uniform and wielding a nightstick in 2008.

    • Anonymous

       I’m sure local law enforcement investigated and interviewed witnesses and would have made an arrest if it was warranted.  Isn’t that the way the system is supposed to work.  Or do you want some outsiders to come in a tell the locals what to do like nanny-state big brother?

      • C.P.

        Putting out a $10,000 dollar death bounty on an American citizen in the U.S. is a federal crime.

        What part of FEDERAL Crime don’t you understand?

  • notafeminista

    To feettothefire below:  You said the police didn’t arrest him later, except they did.  So is your grump that he wasn’t arrested soon enough to suit your particular preference?

    Glaring ignorance of the workings of the criminal justice system.

    I’m going to assume your response to my question about Spike Lee is that he has no relevancy to the Sanford case.  Assuming that was your intent, then why did Mr. Lee feel it necessary to broadcast anyone’s (right or wrong person) to the entire planet?

    • notafeminista

      Anyone’s address that is.  Apologies for the error.

    • Anonymous

       Why do you keep asking me to comment on the actions of an individual who I have stated several times is irrelevant? Are you insisting that I must care about Spike Lee because you want me to? Do you have access to a dictionary? If so, try using it. Look up the word irrelevant. And please don’t attribute to me words that I did not use. I said they did not arrest him in an “HOUR,” a “WEEK,” or a “MONTH.”  I never claimed that he wasn’t eventually arrested. What was the topic of today’s show. Oh, yeah. ZIMMERMAN CHARGED WITH MURDER. At least TRY to be accurate.

      • notafeminista

        From feettothefire: “Please tell me what erroneous facts I presented above or what conjecture I made about guilt. Please be very specific. I don’t see it. I’d sure be grateful if you could point it out for me. Quote me, if you wish.”

        “It was a case of unequal justice under the law. The police let Zimmerman walk.”  Erroneous statement(s) quoted as requested.

        The police didn’t let Zimmerman walk.  What they did do was fail to arrest him fast enough to suit you.  While it is appreciated this may be frustrating to you as well as others, frustration has absolutely no bearing on the matter.

        • Anonymous

           Well my dear, if you believe that the Sanford Police were ever going to arrest George Zimmerman without the public outcry around this case and without the involvement of the feds, then we’re simply at a hopeless impasse. I can only hope the Sanford Police Department is never again confronted with anything more complicated than jaywalking.

          • Robert Riversong

            The Sanford police department DID arrest Zimmerman immediately after he was treated by medics on the scene. To arrest is to take into custody. Zimmerman was in handcuffs. The police did a thorough investigation, attempted to get a warrant to charge him with manslaughter so they could continue to hold him, but were refused by the DA who felt there was not sufficient evidence to disprove self-defense.

          • Hidan

             Interesting the former Police Chief step down after his son was found to beating up a homeless black man and Zimmerman dad is a former Judge

      • Hidan

         It’s the rightwinger attempt of justify Zimmerman. Since they can’t openly say Martin was black and therefore Zimmerman had every right to be fearful blacks in general and use forced or kill him without getting in trouble.

        This is shown by there attempts to post stories that have nothing to do with this story other than a black man killing/attacking a white man. Of course failing to mention in those stories (unlike Zimmerman) were arrested.

        • Hidan

           “fearful of blacks in general”

          • Gregg

            Why would anyone be fearful of blacks in general. That’s stupid.

  • Senrab99a

    No one is keeping a clear perspective. Race, law, and profiling are the central points. Zimmerman was told by the dispatcher not to pursue, yet he pursued and caused the young Mr. Martin tone willing to stand HIS ground. The law states that you could use deadlyy force to protect yourself. Homestead laws make the same assertion. You can use deadly force to protect your family and property, but the problem is that there appears to be no check on the decission to do a serious investigation on what happened. The officer on the scene should not havg biased or incompetent. The laws and law enforcement are to protect the innocent and punish the criminal. Badly written laws do neither as they seem to be written out of political expedience and not to ensure public protection. Mr. Martin did not deserve to die and Mr. Zimmerman should not have been in a position to pull a trigger. Both were lied to by a society that says you have the power to do as you please. I may own a gun, but I must know that I must answer for using it. I have a right to peacefully walk the street but I must be aware of those who may cause me harm as I walk peacefully.

    • Senrab99a

      You can not make anyone like or respect you, but everyone has the right and responsibility to keep themselves and family safe and far from harm’s way. Arrogance goes before the fall.

    • William

      It is curious to note that Martin could have just waited for the police to arrive and sorted out the situation with them. So at what point did Martin decide to attack Zimmerman and why did he do that?

      • Anonymous

         Maybe it was the gun. Oh, my fault. You have incontrovertible evidence that Zimmerman didn’t show or pull his weapon. My mistake.

      • Hidan

         How would Martin know the police were coming?

      • Azra

        Indeed. Why would he choose to defend himself against the predator, when he was SO close to the safety of his home, and loving family? He could have just made a run for it…of course, his tea would have spilled…but then Zimmerman would have been on Trayvon’s property, so at least Mr. Martin could have legally killed Zimmerman.

      • Anonymous

        Alas, the young man is dead. We really don’t know his side of the story now, do we.

    • Robert Riversong

      “Race, law, and profiling are the central points.” 

      Are they? There’s no evidence of racial profiling, racism or a hate crime. Zimmerman has a life-long history of helping and defending blacks and other marginalized people.

      The only “profiling” that seems to have occurred, because of the eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting in 2011 alone, and the recent influx of strange young men into the community, was that there was a strange young man apparently wandering slowly and aimlessly in the rain, avoiding streets and sidewalks and looking at the buildings.

      Any of us would have had the same suspicions as Zimmerman.

      As for the law, regardless of it’s merits, it currently allows Zimmerman to use deadly force if he feels his life is in danger. And the police force did a rather thorough investigation, taking Zimmerman into custody, interviewing six witnesses and returning the next day to have Zimmerman re-enact the entire incident.

      • Azra

        How could Zimmerman possibly have thought that his life was in danger? Was there a menacing stranger stalking HIM too?

        • Anonymous

           While I would certainly never wish harm on anyone, it would be interesting to see how calmly and patiently many of these folks would react to a stranger with a gun following them down the street at night. Some of them would run. Some would wet their pants. Some would sheepishly let themselves be bullied by the clown. And some would beat his brains in. I like to think I would be in the last group. But who knows?  I’ll tell you what absolutely NONE of them would do. They wouldn’t defend what he did to them. They’d be outraged. But I guess if he killed them he’d be deserving of public understanding and the “benefit of the doubt.”

          • Gregg

            Okay, so you’d beat his brains in. Would you take his gun and shoot him if you were bigger and badder?

          • Anonymous

             If I was bigger and badder, and I beat his brains in, I wouldn’t have to shoot him, and most people would consider me an admirable person, because we all certainly have the right to self-defense. Besides, shooting people is George Zimmerman’s schtick, not mine.

    • Esteban

      You are forgetting that Zimmerman retreated from contact with Martin, that ends Martin’s right to stand his ground. He stood it… but  Martin was the aggressor on the second, fatal contact which allowed Zimmerman to stand his ground or at least have an accidental discharge three times to stop the assault on his life… either way, Martin is dead and Zimmerman has reasonable doubt…

  • Henry Rock

    Check out the FBI stats on cross-racial crime:
    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

    • Robert Riversong

      What’s your point?

      • Gregg

        I would guess the point is we don’t have an epidemic of white guys hunting blacks to kill as has been the hideous charge. If anything it’s the other way around but most sane people don’t use those numbers to imply nasty intentions. For me, I don’t care about intentions or race. Senseless murder is senseless murder.

        • JGC

          “If anything it’s the other way around”, you meaning there is an epidemic of black guys hunting whites.  So much for you not caring about intentions or race.  I do agree with you that senseless murder is just that.

          • Gregg

            My bad, I should have been more clear. The numbers suggest it’s the other way around. Not that I care.

    • DJ O’Nasty

      also: 
      http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_06.html
      This shows similar data for nationwide homicides in 2009 (limited to single-victim, single-offender, but I’m not sure how that changes things): of 6,230 crimes with any combination of white or/and black victims/offenders, 663 were interracial.  Of those 663 interracial homicides, 454 involved white victims and black offenders, and 209 involved white offenders and black victims.

      The racist call-in who claimed that “90% of interracial [crimes? murders?] are black-on-white” perhaps got his information from: http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/Others-Doc-Blacks/+Doc-Blacks-Crime&HateCrime/SummaryOfSheehansBlackCrimeStats.htm
      that wonderful site appears to be tied to the NAAWP, an extra-wonderful white-supremecist  group.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_the_Advancement_of_White_People

      racist ignorance/lies needs to be corrected.  I would want to be corrected if I said something so (apparently) counter-factual.

      • DJ O’Nasty

        Also, Zimmerman identifies as Hispanic, no?

      • DJ O’Nasty

        Oh, and the NAAWP identifies as a “white equality” group, not a “white supremacy” group. Oh, how silly of me to confuse the two!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sam-Osborne/1115006842 Sam Osborne

    This is a stand-your-ground absurdity that harkens back to a non-existent era when real men carried a six shooter, just like John Wayne; but this is a real-life tragedy into which lives have been swept by silly talk and stupid legislation. Those that promoted this absurd thinking and law could as well be standing at trial in place of poor Zimmerman—but they might all plead diminished capacity.

    It is not black and white, or is it?  So, picture a slight twist to parts in this tragedy:

    George Zimmerman is walking along thinking he is minding his
    own business and an armed young man named Trayvon Martin starts following him.

    Zimmerman phones his girlfriend and says he is a bit spooked
    by this guy following him.

    The next thing we know is told to us by Zimmerman: he says
    he was grabbed on the arm by this armed stranger and asked what he was doing there.

    Zimmerman did not know what the gun toter was doing there
    and when grabbed Zimmerman sprang to self defense and uses deadly force to protect himself by banging the young man’s head onto the sidewalk.

    It obviously would not have been safe to run from an armed
    man who had grabbed him and so he protected himself.

    The above assumes that self-protection is not restricted toting so only with a gun.

  • Hidan

    Notice out of the 600+ comments no condemnation by the rightwingers on the Business Insiders use of a fake Trayvon Martin picture.

    • Gregg

      Nobody knows about that picture and the right didn’t use it to racially divide the public. No bounties were issued. That’s not the way we roll. It was a lousy mistake that no one noticed.

      • Hidan

        lol,

        ” It was a lousy mistake that no one noticed.”

        sure it was…….. so who should be fired from the Business insiders?

    • Karen Frances

      Oh geez.  Business Insider.  I bet the picture that Business Insider used looked more like the Trayvon Martin age 17 than the photos the mainstream media used where Martin was 11 years old.  

      • Hidan

         Typical,

        Just so happens was promoted by the right until it was of shown to be false.

        So who should be fired from the Business Insider for doing this?

  • Craddock

    Stand your ground should have nothing to do with this case. the issue is that zimmerman perused martin after being told by police dispatch not to. I think it is insane people would be against stand your ground, what happens if the law is changed? when someone attacks you do u just let them beat you to death???? 

    • Karen Frances

      Zimmerman did not pursue Martin.  He was on the way back to his vehicle when Martin assaulted him from behind. 

  • Guest

    Peruvian vs Negro from what I’ve read. None of this is being reported accurately. How racist of the public.
    If Floridians do not like the law, then change it but quite trying to make this a racist case. See opening, again.

  • Bee

    I find it strange that the Bible belt pushes a law that strikes out God’s law, “Thou shalt not kill”.  How does the Christrain Right struggle with the ethics of death and public policy?

  • Gregg

    Do we really need a law to tell us we have a right to stand our ground? It seems like a given.

    • Anonymous

       According to many of the people here today, the only people who have a right to stand their ground are the ones with guns. If you’re unarmed, you’re supposed to do what the nice man says. Heaven forbid you beat the idiot’s brains in.

      • Azra

        WHAT brains?

      • Esteban

        It is called physical assault… and if you choose to attack someone, you choose to accept the consequences of your actions… just ask the kids Bernie Goetz shot… MARTIN picked the wrong fight with the wrong guy on the wrong day and paid the price for it… 

        If you are unarmed, yes, you are supposed to do what the ADULT says…

        • Anonymous

           Maybe you can show me where it states in any statute anywhere that we are legally required  to follow the orders of idiots with guns. This should be hilarious, even from a shit-for-brains like you. Imagine, tough little pussies with guns can tell the rest of us what we must do. More insightful brilliance.

  • Nicknetos

    How can this case not be considered Murder 1 when Zimmerman was specifically asked NOT to leave (armed, mind you) to pursue a so-called perpetrator? It would seem to me that it trumps the “Stand Your Ground Act”. Nick/NYC

    • Karen Frances

      How do you know Zimmerman pursued Martin?  He says he didn’t follow him and was heading back to his vehicle when Martin came from behind and suckerpunched him to the ground.  

      • Anonymous

         “HE SAYS?” OH, well that certainly clears it up. We’re supposed to automatically take the word of people who shoot other people because of what “they say.” You should be a lawyer. Or a circus geek.

      • Hidan

         Zimmerman is in is car when he called the police.

        Why would he get out of his car? if the claim is to check where he is your (sic) evidence http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back shows that there be no reason to since he lives in such area and as an (sic) neighborhood watch would know the area quite well.

        Again Zimmerman called the cops in his car so if he wasn’t following Martin any longer why would he get out of the car?

        • Karen Frances

          He was on his way back to his car.  He wasn’t following Martin when Martin came from behind and suckerpunched him.

        • Esteban

          And he lost contact of MARTIN’s whereabouts if you were listening to that part of the audio tape… the kid got away and ZIMMERMAN was in fear of the kid finding out where he lived and pursuing him…

  • Tom_long2
  • Tom_long2

    Inconvenient truth: cross-racial murder is exceedingly rare
     

  • Peace not Fear

    let’s stay with the basics people.  the police told him we do not need you to follow him. do not do that. period. even if Trayvon was alive today, and there was a fight – Zimmerman put himself in a situation that could lead to a fight.

    A grand jury met Wednesday to consider whether charges should be filed in the police shooting of retired Marine Kenneth Chamberlain Sr., who was killed when police, responding to a false alarm from his LifeAid medical-alert pendant, burst into his White Plains apartment, tasered him and shot him dead on November 19, 2011.

    There is not enough room for a complete list, it is just too long.

    So what do we all do people- we need a movement from the grass roots up -  people need to learn about each other – stop the fear -  don’t know if you can stop the hate

    I want to help. where do we start?

    • aj

      Also the Grand jury is still in session for NYPD officer Haste’s (Narc.) homicide of 19 yr old Ramarley Graham (Feb 2), unarmed and inside his NorthBronx(Wakefield 47th precinct) home w/ grandma and 6yr old brother watching, when Haste put a bullet in him. No warrant!

      Amadou Diallo… Sean Bell… etc etc etc…

      • aj

        Fuck Bloomberg!

        • aj

          He and commisioner Kelly didn’t even go to the wake of a teen murdered by one of THEIR goons. Instead they went to the Giants Super Bowl parade!

    • aj

      Imagine being a 6 yr old in your home playing video games when a pig breaks down the door with no warrant and shoots your older brother right in front of you? Unarmed! WTF is that?

      • Tr_reb

        what does that have to do with martin and zimmerman?

        • aj

          I’m sorry. I misunderstood, I thought Peace was talking about other cases where justice was being denied and what not.

          So I thought I would mention to Peace not Fear about a case that happened in my community. My mistake.

          • Peace not Fear

            correct. i was making reference to another case as well as TM case

    • Anonymous

      You should take your own advice (“let’s stay with the basics people.”). The police did not say  “we do not need you to follow him.” or “do not do that.” 

      You kind of forfeit your opportunity to be taken seriously when you fail to demonstrate an understanding of the basic facts of the situation.

  • Keep the pressure on

    is there a site where these type of deaths are listed, and legal actions tracked?

  • Peace not Fear

    Source of many ills…………………..
    The hearing “will explore how profiling harms law enforcement and the different faces of racial profiling, including state immigration laws in Alabama and Arizona that subject Hispanic Americans to heightened scrutiny, discriminatory law enforcement against African Americans and anti-terrorism efforts that target American Muslims,” according to an advisory from Sen. Dick Durbin, D-IL.
    Durbin is chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Human Rights. His office said it is the first racial profiling hearing in the Senate since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
    Durbin’s office said the hearing will also examine ways to end racial profiling, such as legislation, rule changes within the U.S. Department of Justice and the enforcement of federal civil rights laws.

  • Kate

    Why doesn’t “stand your ground” apply to Treyvon Martin? There’s physical evidence that Zimmerman was aggressively following, stalking Treyvon so why wasn’t Treyvon justified in defending himself from Zimmerman? So even if Treyvon did attack Zimmerman, why doesn’t the “stand your ground” law defend the very actions that Zimmerman claims Treyvon took? I don’t understand why “stand your ground” applies only to Zimmerman in this case.

    • aj

      Me neither. And only a coward would shoot an unarmed person in the heart. He could of shot one in the air, or shot at his leg, if he wasn’t man enough to take a beating. Straight up coward, I say.

      • Kate

        Yeah, what if it was the dead guy who was the one who was really “standing his ground”? Who is representing him? The prosecutor’s job is to prosecute Zimmerman. I hope he or she brings up the fact that Trayvon also had the right withing the law to “stand his ground” and defend himself from some self appointed shmo coming after him just because he didn’t like the way Trayvon looked. Zimmerman was not being threatened by Trayvon, but Trayvon WAS being threatened by Zimmerman who continued to pursue him even after he was instructed to stop. 

        • Anonymous

           Kate, I think you’re new here. At least I haven’t seen your comments before. I must warn you. You’re coming dangerously close to making sense. You’ll soon learn that many here take offense to such shenanigans.

          • Kate

            Thank you. When I first heard Zimmmerman’s side of the story, I thought well, maybe Trayvon did attack him. But then I thought the thought completely through and looked at the physical evidence. Zimmerman was the one threatening Trayvon, so it would have been Trayvon, not Zimmerman who would have initially acted out of self-defense. So then it didn’t matter if Trayvon did attack Zimmerman, if the case is based upon the “stand your ground” law. Trayvon was protecting himself from Zimmerman who clearly was out of line in going after Trayvon. I believe this will come out when the facts are all looked at. 

          • Esteban

            If what you say happened, then you have a point… BUT, the reason SYG doesn’t hold for Trayvon is that Zimmerman disnegaged the confrontation. SYG ended for Trayvon… then Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and that is why SYG might be applicable for Zimmerman…  

            That’s the compilation of the defense’s arguments

          • Anonymous

             Do you always take the word of criminal defendants as facts? And at what point do we decide that the man with a gun is no longer a threat?

          • Hidan

             ask them what they think of OJ and the verdict?

          • Esteban

            I take their words along with the rest of the story… when the gun is not out but holstered and concealed, kind of hard to be a threat… where is one witness statement or video that says anything about the weapon being brandished??? Kind of like your assertion of my stating innocence–wrong yet again… amazing… oh yeah, House’s rule of thumb… IDIOT

          • Anonymous

             IT”S very hard to kill someone without un unholstered gun. If you can claim it was holstered without witnesses to say otherwise, I can say it was being brandished. unless you can tell me why I can’t. I’ll look for your brilliant reasoning on this point in the morning.

          • Karen Frances

            Esteban,
            Exactly.  The only scenario that makes sense is that Martin doubled back to attack Zimmerman.  Imagine how many more people would be dead right now if Martin had succeeded in killing Zimmerman and gotten that gun.

          • Anonymous

             More brilliance from another idiot. The unarmed kid walking down the street caused the problem, not the  armed person following him in the night. And let’s conjecture about how many people Martin would certainly have killed rather than focus on the one person that Zimmerman did kill. I saw a lot of stupid comments today, but yours is by far the most fuuuucked-up.

          • Esteban

            Still an idiot, only more moronic… good job!

      • Karen Frances

        You would shoot an unarmed person who overpowered you and had you on the ground beating your head on the concrete.  So would anyone else here if they had a gun.  And they would sure want to have a gun.

        • aj

          NO I FUCKING WOULDN’T!!!!!!!!!!!

          sorry for yelling

        • aj

          I’ve lost plenty of fights. But you live to fight another day.

        • Anonymous

           You know what I WOULD do if I got the chance? I’d beat the living shit out of any clown who threatened me with a gun at night. I guess that’s not permissible for young thugs armed with iced tea.

          • aj

            You said it Feet. Now I can go to bed.  

          • Karen Frances

            You don’t bother to know anything.  Martin doubled back and attacked Zimmerman, who was returning to his vehicle, not stalking Martin.  Its all in the timeline and the schematic of the housing complex. 

            Martin didn’t go to the house he was supposedly staying in or he’d have been there faster than Zimmerman could have caught up to him.  He doubled back and attacked Zimmerman, who fortunately had the means to save his own life.

          • Anonymous

            I know plenty. I know you’re an ignorant schmuck who thinks you know something the rest of us don’t. I know you’re a foolish twerp who has decided that Martin is guilty because he’s black, yet you criticize others for making this “all about race.” And I know that all the people who keep telling us that we shouldn’t jump to conclusions, that we should wait for more evidence, are cowards if they see your comments and don’t launch the same kind of criticism at you. I’ll believe THAT when I see it.

    • Anonymous

       That’s a great question. I’ve been asking it for weeks. Apparently the deep thinkers here are willing to cut a lot of slack for the dope with a gun, while refusing to give the unarmed kid at least as much leeway. Poor George. Beaten up by an unarmed kid who who refused to be threatened by a little dink. How DARE he take offense to being followed by a gun-toting jackass? HOW DARE HE?

      • Kate

        The LAST thing I want in my neighborhood is a gun-carrying “volunteer”. At least the police are trained and have protocols. I wonder how many neighborhoods have gun carrying volunteer “cops”?  Who is responsible for what these people do? It’s bad enough that the police sometimes screw up and kill innocent people and get off the hook just because they are the police. Now we’re going to entitle every citizen-wannabe cop with the same kind of privilege? Trayvon’s death was a horrible tragedy. But he did not die in vain because this very dangerous set of circumstances might not have gotten the attention it deserves if this hadn’t happened.  

        • Karen Frances

          No, the last thing you want in your neighborhood is young thugs.  The reason poor people are willing to pay so much of their income to get out of ghetto areas is the young thugs, not the neighborhood watch people.

          • Anonymous

            Wow, I’ve only read two of your comments and I must say, you’re a sad human being. You make extreme comments and you get away with it because most people have more decency than you seem too. Have you no decency?

          • Anonymous

             Fucking idiots have no decency. That’s why they’re fucking idiots.

          • Karen Frances

            Black men and women are afraid of young black thugs.  White, brown and asian men and women are afraid of young black thugs.  They commit almost 50% of violent crime.

            I am sure that YOU are afraid of young black thugs. 

            All decent people are afraid of young black thugs. Its only common sense.

          • Anonymous

             The problem with dildos like you is, youve decided that they’re all thugs. Even the ones who aren’t.

          • Anonymous

             Until the neighborhood watch people start shooting them.

    • Karen Frances

      The so-called evidence of Zimmerman “aggressively following, stalking” Martin is the girl friend relating what she says Martin told her on the phone.  But her testimony didn’t come until after the Crump-Sharpton-Jackson circus.  

      Martin had no right to attack Zimmerman and Zimmerman had every right to walk around his own neighborhood.  

  • Anna K

    To the callers tonight spewing racist comments and
    questioning why race is relevant to the case and the media’s coverage of it. To
    these callers: YOU ARE THE REASON.

    You bring to light racism as alive and well within this country. I turn
    off the radio  embarrassed to be
    Caucasian. Is that inappropriate to say? I am. To have anything in common
    with racist callers moves me to apologize for them and for myself even. I pray those
    people clothed in bigotry do not create a deeper wedge between human beings. I
    pray that instead, if there’s anything to gain from this tragedy, that we find
    it soon and I propose one of those things be this: there’s an opportunity to
    acknowledge racism as real and alive and people all over the world cannot
    ignore that now. The United States, myself included, cannot pretend otherwise.
    Why? BECAUSE of the response to this tragedy. Because of the callers tonight.
    Because the conversation between people of all different ethnicities this
    induces and the passion and the sadness and the anger and the ignorance it
    exposes. Because of the impassioned response on race between countless ethnicities. I can only pray that this
    tragedy begins to continue the work of  Martin Luther King and other Civil Rights leaders. Their work is not done. Hopefully this event educates the population, still
    living in denial that a large portion of American people still see through a
    lens: deadly lens, dividing lens, ignorant lens, violent lens, the very very
    sad and very very DANGEROUS lens of racism.  I’m so sorry the world lost
    someone preceding this. I hope Zimmerman becomes a notch on a timeline of the
    United States’ acknowledgment on deep rooted bigotry and moves Americans
    and the world to make racism truly unacceptable in every nook and cranny, regardless
    of ones education or geographical location. No excuses. No exceptions. Just justice for human beings. 

    • aj

      It took courage to write that. God bless.

      • notafeminista

        In case you two hadn’t noticed, the Sanford case is not about race at all. 

        • aj

          And in case you hadn’t noticed, none of those cases you brought up earlier had to do with the Sanford case neither you fascist senorita!

          • Anonymous

             Ain’t she clever? All those links today and now it’s not about race. Remarkable.

          • notafeminista

            Context does tend to get lost in text admittedly, but are ya too thick to see sarcasm?

            No great surprise.

          • Anonymous

            I think you need some lessons on the effective use of sarcasm. Lesson 1: Stupidity isn’t Sarcasm.

          • notafeminista

            *chuckle*.  I must be doing something right.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          Tell that to Martin’s parents, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, CNN..and on and on…. Those people and groups have made it all about RACE.

    • Karen Frances

      Race is relevant because it has shown lots of white people how much black people hate us.  

      • Anonymous

         My oh my. Why would black people EVER hate you?

        • Karen Frances

          I don’t really care that they do, to be honest. 

          • Anonymous

             Of course you care , you jackass. You’ve been telling us for several hours.

      • Anonymous

        Are you aware of what you are saying?
        Do you have any understanding of the history here? 

        Are you really this ignorant and intolerant?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Indeed. As a gay man I see black hatred of whites in general, and gays in particular, every day. Blacks are the most bigoted and racist group in the Nation. Yet are the FIRST to cry discrimination. HYPOCRISY

  • Anonymous

    Did anyone mention Zimmerman helped a destitute black man? Of course not! This is all about Bushbama re-election with the help of the race baiting MSM!

    • aj

      I’ve been as hard on Georgie, the D.A., and the police chief as anybody on this forum. But I ever never called Georgie a rascist. Not once.

      But Seminole county law enforcement wasn’t gonna do a damn thing until they started feeling pressure. Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin had to seek justice another way.

      They turned to their church, which led to Reverend Sharpton’s action network of black parishes. That doesn’t mean because there is a lot of black people marching together that they are race-baiting.

    • Kate

      yeah, and David Gore once helped a stranded motorist change their flat tire…. (smirk). 

    • Anonymous

       Maybe some day, if I help a destitute person, I’ll get to kill someone , too.

    • bellavida

      Yes..this is all about getting Obama re-elected.  Are you forgetting that Zimmerman is going to get a trial?  

    • Vargas-Medina

      Actually he’s had black friends and aquaintances say he was not a racist. Maybe he was just stupid or over-zelous…

  • Anna k

    Which is relevant, why? Is that one positive point for him? He shot an unarmed human being and was let go by the police the night of. If you think this is only about a reelection then you’ve missed the loss of a human being. You’ve miss the whole point. No matter how this story may or may not be spun or used or misused, you’ve missed the point. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       And you may have missed it as well.  This case has some murky spots, but it looks like self defense.  Are you saying that the life of Martin is worth more than Zimmerman?  People who are opposed to armed self defense frequently raise the point that you raised, but they neglect to explain why an innocent citizen needs to be beaten up or killed just to save the life of a thug.

      • Karen Frances

        They think Zimmerman was obligated to let the sweet young boy slam his head into the ground.  They think Zimmerman was only allowed to hope and pray that Martin would stop before killing him. 

        • aj

          He could try fighting back, if in fact that’s what happened. You win some, you lose some, but you live to fight another day. Look I’m sorry for yelling but why are you so mean?

          • Karen Frances

            Martin had him pinned to the ground!  Why on earth would you think it was just a “fight” after Martin suckerpunched him? 

            No, I think its pretty damned mean of you to think George Zimmerman had to lie there and let Martin beat the life out of him or turn him into a vegetable. 

          • Hidan

             much better the guy Zimmerman was stalking be dead than for Zimmerman to stay in his car and wait for the police.

            Again according to zimmerman himself he’s part of the neighborhood watch(which one would think he would know the area quite well) no reason to get out of his car.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Oh, sure, a stranger is wandering around his neighborhood, and he’s supposed to ignore this.  How comforting it must be to live in your neighborhood.

          • Hidan

             quite nice, never felt the need to grab a gun and start tracking them. must suck living your neighborhood.

          • Anonymous

            I used to take my dog for long walks at night. We’d walk through many different neighborhoods. Little did I know that this meant I was a thug and that I needed permission, lest I be confronted by a slob cowboy with a gun. Whew, that was sure close.

          • Karen Frances

            He lives there.  He had every right to get out of his car. 

          • Anonymous

             Because she’s a disgusting slob.

        • Anonymous

          Wrong again doofus. What they think is a person should be allowed to walk at night without being accosted by a goon with a gun. What they think is, we have a right to defend ourselves against said goons. Please tell me if you think I have no right to defend myself from a person with a gun who threatens me in the night. And if you’re going to tell me that it didn’t happen that way, please tell me how you know it didn’t happen that way. I’ll bet it’s because George said so, right?

        • Azra

          Exactly who was stalking who? Remember, Zimmerman was near the boy’s home, when he had no right to be there. If the child tried to save his life, where is the proof, on the perp’s body, face, and clothing, that Trayvon tried to save his life? What became of that broken nose that Zimmerman, his family, and attorneys kept whining about? There is not a trace of blood ANYWHERE! Did he have some miraculous healing experience during those few minutes, in which his nose suddenly stopped gushing blood, had been divinely set and healed, and when both black eyes, (along with all facial swelling and discoloration), had completely vanished, and all blood was removed from his face, body, amd clothing?

          Please explain.

          There’s no evidence On Zimmerman’s body, face, or clothing, that Trayvon ever had a chance to defend himself. We’ve seen what Zimmerman looked like, in the video taken mere minutes after he killed the child. You should watch it too.

      • Hidan

        Greg never fails in making his near daily asinine comments.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           You mean that I never fail to disagree with you.  There’s a difference.

          • Hidan

             no I mean what I said.

      • Hidan

         Greg world

        “but they neglect to explain why an innocent citizen needs to be beaten up or killed just to save the life of a thug.”

        Innocent citizen=Zimmerman
        Thug= Martin

        ” Are you saying that the life of Martin is worth more than Zimmerman?”

        Zimmerman=defender
        Martin= Aggressor

        “This case has some murky spots, but it looks like self defense.”

        Previous Greg= others should wait for all the evidences before claiming guilt

        Current Greg= Zimmerman is not guilty cause it looks like self defense.

        ” People who are opposed to armed self defense frequently raise the point that you raised,”

        Guy following Martin with a gun= Self defense
        Guy being followed by a strange man on a phone with a unknown person=not entitled to Self Defense

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           You’ve heard of balance, perhaps?  We have a constant drumbeat for the lynching of Zimmerman.  It’s time for a different perspective.

          • Hidan

             Balance now? I thought it was waiting for all the facts, by your own actions you did was you chided others for doing.  Also by your statement you make it sound like there were no other perspective until now.(which is not the case) .

            Beside the near daily asinine statements from folks like yourself, the constant drumbeat was for his arrested not lynching

          • Hidan

             ” you did what you chided others for doing.”

          • Karen Frances

            You won’t get any balance, as with so many public issues.  Look at Tom Ashbrook not once confronting that FL Democratic legislator about his clear threats of riots. 

    • Karen Frances

      Martin was not unarmed.  He was a strong young person with fists and he could kill with those fists.  Look up the knock-out game assaults in St. Louis last year.  

      • Azra

        Huh?

        • Vargas-Medina

          The young man was 6’3″. Little teenager? Duh!

          • aj

            oooohhhh scarry. Tray was a 150 pds soaking wet. R U serious?

            Oh I forgot… he was……. black!

            AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Karen Frances

            He suckerpunched Zimmerman to the ground and got on top of Zimmerman to continue the beating.  If it happened to you, you’d be wanting to have a gun to save your life. 

          • aj

            I’m man enough to know that I ain’t gonna die from a fist fight. Why you so mean?

          • Karen Frances

            Maybe you can get a “sweet young boy” to slam your head into the ground and put your thesis to the test! 

          • Anonymous

             Maybe you can get an ignorant twenty eight year old with a gun to follow you down the street at night. Maybe you can then tell us what a non threatening feeling it fills you with.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Learn proper English! Do yourself a favor and ditch the ghetto lingo. Makes you sound stupid.

          • Anonymous

             Please tell us all how you know that Zimmerman was sucker punched.

          • Azra

            With so much new information, you’re sure to be a valuable witness. Hope you have videos to back up your testimony.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            And now its “Tray”..what crap! Were you his gay lover too?

          • Anonymous

             Wow. What good is a gun against someone who’s 6′ 3″ ?

        • Karen Frances

          Look up the knock-out game.  Thats what Martin was up to.  Choose a white victim who is all alone and suckerpunch him to the ground and beat him up.  Just look it up, “knock-out game.”  Young black thugs have an established protocol including points for it.

          • Hidan

            who knew zimmerman was aware of such game.   Does it start with going to the store? seeing someone following you in there car on a phone with a unknown person? Telling the other person on the phone there scared?

            You people are pretty sick, as if Zimmerman somehow knew all this information these rightwingers are presenting.

          • Karen Frances

            Read up on it.  Zimmerman probably WAS aware of it.  Last year in St. Louis there was a trial of the “knock out king” that fell apart because a witness was afraid to testify.

            You want to live in a fantasy world where people like Trayvon Martin are “sweet young boys” I guess but I bet you don’t live in their neighborhoods.

          • Hidan

            Cause obviously when Zimmerman was tailing Martin he knew that Martin must of known about what happens in St. Louis.

            “their neighborhood”

            a gated community? how scary

          • Karen Frances

            I read that the house values in that “gated community” were only $120,000.  That figure is probably on the high side given the crash of FL real estate.

          • Azra

            Are we supposed to be discussing real estate here, or murder?

            Let’t stick to pertinent information, shall we?

          • Azra

            Scary, isn’t it? Wonder what color the sky is in their world. . .

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Exactly. And it happened in Baltimore just last week. The black thugs beat and stripped the white kid (after robbing him), and left him to die on the street. 

            No marches, no national news coverage, no CNN or MSNBC, no Al Sharpton, no Jessie Jackson, no Black Panthers putting a price on their head…betcha not for sure.

          • Anonymous

             Come on Jason. Jump down her opinionated throat. I know you can do it. Don’t let her get away with jumping to those conclusions without 99.999 percent of the information. Boy, I can’t wait. I’ll bet your going to really let her have it…….Aren’t you?……Jason?……Jason?….You there? Don’t let me down. I know how important the truth is to you.

          • Azra

            How are you privvy to all this heretofore unknown information? The evidence that we mere mortals have been presented with describes an illegal vigilante with a gun, who was stalking a child near the child’s own home, because the boy was having a conversation with his girlfriend, was armed with the deadliest of assault skittles, and was drinking tea IN PUBLIC . . . at his tender age!

      • Azra

        Maybe Trayvon would have been able to defend himself against his predator in an ideal world, but in the real world . . . Trayvon trying to make it home, versus a coward with a gun . . . he never had a chance.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          Were you there?

          • Anonymous

             No he wasn’t. Now let’s see you ask Karen Frances that question.

          • Azra

            Were you? All reasonable people are going by what we have heard and seen for ourselves. We’ve heard the killer say that he was stalking the victim. We’ve heard the police tell him not to do it, but, of course, Zimmerman knew better than the police; after all, he had a police record…and a loaded gun.

            What have YOU seen or heard, that the rest of us don’t know about, and how did you get your information? Why won’t any of you share your sources?

      • Anonymous

        Quick. Contact Zimmerman’s defense team. This sounds like a real winner. Did you come up with this all on your own?

  • Karen Frances

    Of course, it is too much to expect that anyone commenting in the media would know anything about the facts of the incident. Wagist.com did a schematic of the housing complex (the “gated community”) and the timeline.  http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back

    The only plausible action is that Martin doubled back to attack Zimmerman, a typical knock-out game attack.  He would have taken a photo with his phone and racked up points towards being the knock-out king.

    Zimmerman did not stalk Martin, clearly, as Martin could have made it back to the house he was supposedly staying in a few seconds and none of this would have happened.  Martin attacked Zimmerman in clear knock-out game protocol, suckerpunching the victim to the ground and beating on him.  Zimmerman was truly in danger for his life.

    • Azra

      What was Zimmerman doing near Trayvon’s house, and with a gun, yet? Why was he following the child home, especially when police had ordered him to get back into his car?

      • Anonymous

         She doesn’t care. Martin was a black kid. That meant he was a thug. Zimmerman killed him. That meant it must have been Martin’s fault. Sheer genius.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

          Where is your false indignation for the young black men who kill other young black men EVERY DAY? 

          Sorry if the reality of that bothers you. Wake up and smell the coffee.

          • Anonymous

             How do you know how I feel about anyone killing anyone? Unlike you, I’m talking about the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman case. You’re the jerk who wants to talk about slavery in Africa, crime in Chicago, and riots in L.A. Look above at the subject title of today’s show. It’s “ZIMMERMAN CHARGED WITH MURDER.” I think you’ve spent more time today talking about black people from anyplace else but Florida.

        • Karen Frances

          No, Martin was a black kid who was a thug.  Only a thug would suckerpunch someone to the ground and get on him and beat him. 

          • Anonymous

            I’m still waiting  for you to tell us how you know Zimmerman was suckerpunched. I’m also waiting to hear Jason_ A’s criticism of you for stating that you know the facts. He told us earlier that 99.999 percent of us had no idea of what the facts are. He criticized me and many others for our comments. Strangely enough, he’s silent in the face of your strident insistence that you know the truth. I know he’s reading your comments. He’s even replied to at least one. Isn’t strange that he calls the rest of us  liberal freaks for expressing our opinions, but we don’t hear a peep from him about your blatant condemnation of Martin and your total absolution of Zimmerman. I guess we now know how much good old Jason cares about the truth. 

          • Azra

            Only a thug would stalk a defenseless child. Zimmerman deserved a good beating; unfortunately, he didn’t get it.

            If Trayvon WAS able to throw a punch or two, it would have been in self defense, and, alas, ineffective. There wasn’t a shred of evidence to back up Zimmerman’s claim that the child ever had a chance to defend himself, by breaking Zimmerman’s nose.

            NOT A SHRED!

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Why do you silly leftists act like you and “Treyvon” are pals..and on a first name basis?  The guy you dont like, Zimmerman…is always referred to by his last name. You PC robots are such predictable folks.

        • Azra

          You still haven’t answered any of the unfathomable questions posed by those who have the ability to think. Please do so at your earliest convenience.

          We haven’t yet heard the first name of Zimmerman. If we find out what it is, how to spell it, and that it is shorter, and easier to type than “Zimmerman”, we will gladly use it.

        • Karen Frances

          You can bet that if any of these goodie 2 shoes ran into a “Treyvon” in a dark alley they’d be scared sh**less.

          • Azra

            It wasn’t a dark alley. If Zimmerman was so afraid of being behind Trayvon, why wouldn’t he stop following him?

            (I can hardly wait to hear the answer to this one.)

      • Karen Frances

        You do realize that Zimmerman lived in the complex, too, don’t you?  Zimmerman never went near the house that Martin was supposedly staying at.  Trouble is, Martin didn’t go there either.  Martin doubled back to attack Zimmerman. 

        Thats the only thing that COULD have happened.  If Martin had gone home, he’d have been there faster than Zimmerman could have gotten to him.  But he didn’t go home.  He went back to suckerpunch Zimmerman and get some knock-out game points.

        • Anonymous

          The house Martin “supposedly was staying at?” You’ve never seen a fact you couldn’t ignore or a fact you couldn’t make up, have you.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            Ghetto speak…  should be: you never SAW…learn proper English.

          • Anonymous

             Please don’t pretend to be smart you incredible idiot. Repeat after me. “YOU’VE NEVER SEEN.” Once again. “YOU’VE NEVER SEEN.”  It’s a conjunction of the words “you” and “have.” It means “YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN.” Get a usage book on the English language if you’re going to be this stupid.

          • Karen Frances

            Martin’s father has told contradictory stories.  If you bothered to know any facts, you would know that.  Look them up; I will not bother typing them out for you. 

            Martin’s father did not even know where Trayvon Martin was when the father went to bed that night.  That might indicate that Martin’s father didn’t even think Trayvon was staying in that house. 

          • Azra

            What does Mr. Martin have to do with anything? As far as we know, he didn’t witness the killing of his son. Do you have more exclusive facts that you won’t share with us?

          • Azra

            . . . and . . . ? It might not. What difference would it make? There aren’t any fathers who always know where there children are 24/7. Did yours? If he knew that his son went to the store, would that have saved the boy’s life? I don’t know what you’re trying to get at, by bringing his father into the mix. What role do you think Trayvon’s father played in the tragedy?

        • Azra

          Why would the fact that Zimmerman lived in that complex have anything to do with his actions that night? Was Zimmerman on drugs? Zimmerman is the only one who knows the answer to that, since he wasn’t given the routine drug and alcohol tests that every suspect was subject to.

          Do you think that living in that complex gives one the right to stalk, and kill?

          I don’t understand what you mean. Please explain.

    • Anonymous

       Congratulations for finally letting all of America know the truth.

    • Hidan

       Smoke much? nothing like learning a strange person following you back to one’s home.

      • Hidan

         “like leading a strange person following you back to one’s home”

  • Karen Frances

    Tom Ashbrook should have confronted that state legislator on what he was talking about.  Sure sounded like he was talking about the threat of black people rioting.  

    • aj

      Don’t You wish. Then you could post what you really think of colored folk.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        If the case is thrown out or Zimmerman is found not guilty, a resulting riot wouldn’t be the first of its kind.

        • Karen Frances

          Odds are pretty good theres going to be a riot no matter what happens.  Free shopping pass.

          • Hidan

            “Free shopping pass.”

            go on.. onpoint needs more evidence of what folks like yourself really think.

          • Anonymous

             Please go shopping on that day. Pleeeaaase.

          • Gregg

            Karen, I’ve read a couple of pages worth of your comments, nice job. The utter nastiness you encounter is typical around here.

          • Anonymous

            No, what’s typical is how you turn everything around to make it look as if you and your ilk are the victims.
            If you support the nasty loaded comments of Karen Frances then you are one and the same. The face of intolerance is alive and well in you two.

          • Gregg

            We’re not the racist.

          • Anonymous

            What do mean?
            Are you saying that Frances’ comments are not about race?
            Are you really so far gone in your ideology that you align yourself with one who’s comments full of a subtext that is based on racist beliefs?

          • Anonymous

             I once had a modicum of respect for Gregg. While he and I agree on very little, I always found him to be one of the less strident, obtuse contributors here. However wrong I invariably found him to be, I usually recognized a level of thoughtfulness that’s often missing from all side of the spectrum, including my own. He just blew that out of the water. Nice job, indeed.

          • Anonymous

             If you consider her remarks about all her incontrovertible proof of Martin’s culpability a nice job, then I guess we can all dismiss all your bullshit over the last few weeks about this being just the “unfortunate  shooting of a young man.”

          • Gregg

            That’s not what she is saying but you’re too nasty to see it.

          • Anonymous

             Can you read, my friend. She has continually told us all that Martin is guilty. that he was a thug. That she has decided he was involved in some knock-outgame. She’s laid out the whole scenario for us and declared Zimmerman innocent and Martin deserving of death. Don’t tell me that’s not what she’s saying. I CAN read. They’re words. They’re right here. Maybe you missed them. If you did read them and still claim that I miss her point, then I stand by my earlier statement.  Your weeks of pretending that this was nothing more than an “unfortunate” killing are weeks of bullshit.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        Riots in LA in the ’90s…short memory eh?  And the slogan: no justice, no peace…and its blunt treat of violence…yup, you can tell what I really think.

        • Anonymous

           Is that a statement about race? What are you, a simple minded leftist?

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

            It is a statement of HISTORICAL FACT. Draw your own mistaken leftist loonie conclusions if you must.

          • Anonymous

             Have no fear my demented friend. Your insistence on continually posting comments that have nothing to do with the Martin-Zimmerman case have made those conclusions quite simple, indeed.

    • Azra

      Sometimes it takes a riot before folks finally see the light, follow the golden rule, examine their consciences, and do the right thing, realizing that we’re all brothers and sisters, under the skin.

      • Karen Frances

        yeah, thats worked out so well for black people in the past.  Making the world a better place by rioting. 

        Or did you just land here? 

        • Carolyn

          If you want to talk about riots, let’s not forget the Tulsa race riots of 1921 where WHITE mobs burned and destroyed a prosperous black neighborhood and murdered many black residents. Did YOU just land here?

  • Vargas-Medina
    • aj

      There’s 4 times as many white people as black people. Not to mention historical socio-economic-political context. Where you from Colombia?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

        WRONG

    • Azra

      What are you trying to prove?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/PQOCSU3NJ5J6SSQBEM5YBFCPZY Jason__A

      Be careful, truth is heresy and never spoken to leftists.

    • Azra

      What does that have to do with Zimmerman stalking Trayvon? Are you trying to show that Zimmerman is dumber than previously thought, since he was in Trayvon’s neighbirhood, should have known better, and should have heeded the advice/orders of the police, when they told him to get back into his car?

      Behaving in that cavalier fashion, Zimmerman could have been hurt, you know. He’s a very lucky man.

      • Hidan

         wasn’t Zimmerman claimed to be part of the “neighborhood watch”? Which one would think he would know the area quite well. Hench there would be no reason to get out of his car after told not to follow.

        • Azra

          Hidan,
          I’d bet my life that you won’t get a satisfactory answer to any of your sensible questions; I haven’t received one yet. They have none to offer.

        • Karen Frances

          Since when are you not allowed to follow someone?   It would be illegal to employ security guards if you can’t follow someone.  

          Zimmerman wasn’t on a neighborhood watch patrol per his brother.  He was headed out of his house to go to the store when he saw a suspicious character in the neighborhood.  

          Do you think it would be a good thing to make neighborhood watch patrols illegal?  Is that what you really mean?  

          The criminals would sure love to get rid of those pesky neighborhood watchers.  

          • Azrastarr

            Since when was he not allowed to follow the boy? Since he was told, on no uncertain terms, NOT to do it . . . since it’s against the law for anyone in a neighborhood watch sceme to carry a gun . . . since he wasn’t even registered to take part in a neighborhood watch, because of his anger management issues, and his criminal record . . . since he was stalking a boy for no reason, other than the fact that he was looking for trouble . . . since the child was on the phone, had his hands full, and couldn’t defend himself . . . shall I go on?

            He broke the law by being where he was told not to go, by doing what he was told not to do, and by having a gun! Like it or not, it’s also illegal, in Florida, for a criminal to stalk and murder a defenseless child.

    • Anonymous

       And yet again, another brainiac giving information having nothing to do with the case.

  • Drae_diggs

    I was referred to this site by a very well respected friend and read through all the comments and it seems like many of you insist on being unreasonable.
    Let’s go through the FACTS (at least what’s been reported because that’s all we have)
    Martin went to the store to buy his little brother some skittles and ice tea. He was walking back to the house when he noticed someone on a phone watching him then following him in the night. Did it occur to anyone that the Hispanic George Zimmerman might look suspicious to him. After all there was a string of robberies in the area. Assuming he had that knowledge or just the mere fact this shady guy was following him home would have been enough for him to be scared. Now for those who try to point out why didn’t he run home, did it ever occur to you he didn’t want to lead a strange creepy person back to the house where his little brother was alone? Anyone who has younger siblings definitely understands this. So lets say he did confront him Zimmerman was the one stalking him to his residence. He had every right to confront a would be attacker if he thought he was protecting his family.
    And to address the stupid sucker punch scenario. You can’t sucker punch someone who is pursuing you. How ridiculous does that sound come on use common sense.
    And if the events happened the way Zimmerman said it did where are the police pictures documenting his injuries? I have yet to ever hear of a single case where someone accused someone of assaulting them and the police didn’t take pictures for the District Attorney’s Office. Its called evidence.
    Let’s also address the fact that the police took the word of the shooter without any investigation what so ever. No drug or alcohol test for the shooter but for the dead body? Does that sound right anyone?
    I won’t speculate whether this was racist on Zimmerman’s part but its clear as a sunny day in Florida that it was racist on the part of the Sanford PD. But taking race out of this you relinquish your right to claim self defense when you follow someone to their home whether you knew you it was their home or not. You still made the decision to follow them and any reasonable person would be scared of an unknown person following them at night.
    We have to ask ourselves is this the kind of country we truly want? Where we are so bogged down by racial division that we refuse to see logic and pursue justice?

    • Karen Frances

      The news media has already admitted there was a gash on the back of Zimmerman’s head.

      Was Martin going to stay out all night rather than “lead a strange creepy person” back to the house where his little brother – who isn’t his brother but is probably another “sweet young boy” - was alone?  Do you know how silly that sounds?

      Martin had no right to assault Zimmerman.  Under no scenario does Martin have a right to assault Zimmerman.  Zimmerman had every right to be where he was.  He lived there. 

      • Drae_diggs

         So hold on we take the word of the media when it supports Zimmerman but condemn it when it supports Martin? Does that sound fair to you?
        Where did you get that Martin was going to stay out all night from? Where is that indicated?
        I also don’t understand your comment about his brother. Are you saying it was a fabrication? That he had no brother? Zimmerman lived in the complex but he didn’t live in the house Martin was going back to. Its like an apartment complex. If I live on the fourth floor the guy on the first floor doesn’t have the right to follow me to my front door because I look suspicious to him that’s called menacing. Karen do you have a family?

        • Karen Frances

          Martin’s father went to bed without knowing where his 17 year old son was.  Thats a fact.  

          The other kid in the household is the son of the father’s girlfriend.  

          Zimmerman had a right to be anywhere in that housing complex.  Are you thinking that joggers just run in place in their front yards?  Where do you get the idea that Zimmerman had no right to look where a suspicious character was headed?  That is not menacing or it would be illegal to employ security guards.

          Like the other people here who don’t bother to know any facts, you want to personalize something against me, an anonymous poster on the internet.  When anyone confronts you with any facts, you are defensive and lash out against the messenger.

      • Azra

        Do you know how silly YOU sound? That “gash” happened long before the murder, since it wasn’t bleeding, and wasn’t even swollen anymore. Did you see his broken nose? Nobody else did.

        From the beginning, everything he did there was against the law. He wasn’t registered in the Neighborhood Watch program, because of his past behavior, and criminal record, so he was breaking the law by stalking that child. Not to mention the fact that it is also against the law for anyone who is LEGITIMATELY involved in a neighborhood watch scheme to carry a gun. As if that wasn’t enough, we all heard him say that he was stalking Trayvon; we all heard him being told to stop it. He was where he shouldn’t have been, he was carrying a gun, and doing things he shouldn’t have been doing. It’s as simple as that.

        Oh, I forgot to mention that he also killed an innocent, defenseless child.

        • Anonymous

          You do realize what you are dealing with here? 

        • Karen Frances

          Oh, now you can tell the date of a head injury from pictures on ABC news.

          This is another one like NBC’s dishonest edit:  The news media told us there was no injury but police reports substantiate an injury.  

          There is no law against following someone, obviously, because you have no way to know someone is following you or just walking behind you.  How would people ever get off a train if it was illegal to follow someone.  

          • Azra

            Can’t tell the date just from that video, but anyone can tell that he didn’t have a bloody nose . . . well, you might be the exception.

            His head wasn’t bleeding either, nor was it swollen. It was an extensive scar, so if it had just happened that night, it would have still been bleeding profusely, (as would his nose), and would have been very swollen when he was at the police station, not dried up, with no swelling. Looks like he must get into a lot of fights. If you need the exact date of that fight, you’ll have to check his medical records.

            It’s impossible to hide, or fake, a broken nose, (and the very swollen black eyes that go along with it), which is why we all know he was lying about it.

    • Azra

      Drae_diggs,

      Please don’t mention FACTS here; it only confuses them.

      • Drae_diggs

        Do people want to have a meaningful conversation or is it just to assert their point of views no matter what logic dictates?

      • Drae_diggs

        Do people want to have a meaningful conversation or is it just to assert their point of views no matter what logic dictates?

        • Azra

          See for yourself. Some people are “unencumberrd by the thought process”, as Click and Clack would say, or else they can’t admit, even to themselves, when they’re wrong.

        • Anonymous

          If you have read a lot of comments here, you might notice that reason and common sense is not a huge factor.

          As you stated we don’t know the entire story here. One thing is for sure, Trayvon Martin is dead. One would think that any shooting should come under a lot of scrutiny but when a young man is killed, and know we can say murdered, as this is the charge, you would think there would be an investigation.
          A lot of bad police work as well as the local persecutor dropping the ball on this case.

          • Gregg

            First you accuse others of lacking reason and common sense. You then say: “you would think there would be an investigation”.

            Hey Sherlock, there was and is an investigation. The Prosecuter may have dropped the ball by charging 2nd Murder. Alan Dershowitz says it will never get past a judge.

          • Anonymous

            If there was an investigation, it was not a good one.

            The guy shot the kid, that’s a proven fact and Zimmerman admitted it. Alan Dershowitz is not involved with this case and he knows about as much as we do.

            2nd degree murder was charged because they thought they had enough evidence. It seems to like the judge who has already heard the preliminary has agreed to the validity of the charges based on the evidence. I guess Mr. Dershowitz is now wrong as Zimmerman has been remanded without bail.
            So Dershowitz is not only wrong, so are you.
            It remains to be seen if this goes to trial. The prosecutor might be angling for Zimmerman to cop a plea.
            We shall see.

            As for reason and common sense, you sir are not one to talk about such things. The evidence does not hold in your case.

          • Gregg

            I’m not a lawyer and I hate Dershowitz but he is smart. We’ll see if he’s right o not when it goes to trial.

          • Still Here

            Speak for yourself; reason and common sense left you long ago. 

          • Anonymous

            One could lower them self to your level of discourse, but it would be hard to do without sounding as if you were about 9 or 10 years old. Try growing up.

    • MSNewman

      Hi Drae_diggs…You laid out the facts quite well. I appreciate how the lack of evidence on Zimmerman begs the question: “What really happened?”  The “stand your ground law” should work for both sides here.  It is clear to me that Mr. Zimmerman did not follow instructions from dispatchers to stop following the youth, and the tragedy is the result.

      I wonder what the outcome might have been had the tables been turned and Zimmerman were the dead person???  Would the Stand your Ground Law be upheld, or would Travon have been charged as an adult?  

      One further thing, I happen to be a gun owner, and a person who believes that if someone is coming into my home with the intent to do me harm, I will not go down without a fight.  That being said, the gun is not always the first choice, and most times, it is the worst choice. The consequences are frequently permanent, so the gun owner must be convinced that he or she is in imminent danger of death before using deadly force.  I think a lot of things in the Martin/Zimmerman situation, but what I think is that Mr. Zimmerman acted foolishly against direct instruction from the 911 dispatcher.  He should be held accountable for his actions.

    • aj

      “Now for those who try to point out why didn’t he run home, did it ever occur to you he didn’t want to lead a strange creepy person back to the house where his little brother was alone?”

      Good Drae_. I admit, if I was a juror, I was wondering how George caught up to him in the few minutes between George getting out of vehicle and police arriving to a dead Martin.  But your theory, is a damn good one. It hadn’t occured to me, but when I read that, it makes an awful lot of sense, I would and have done the same thing many a times.I know everyone on my block. But if a stranger is walking following me I would ring the buzzer to my cousin 2 buildings down.

      • Karen Frances

        Yeah, so smart not to go inside the house and call the cops.  How much smarter it is to double back and suckerpunch the guy you think is following you.

        It didn’t occur to you, aj, because even you have enough sense not to think up something so idiotic.  

    • aj

      Clear as a sunny day in Florida brotherman. That bright blue Seminole sky. Welcome to OnPoint.

      • aj

        Clear that the Sanford Police chief and D.A. were racially bias in their handling of the case, is what I meant. I never said George was rascist, though he had a track record of reporting black people inside the gate to the police hotline 7 times.

        • Gregg

          My understanding is he reported all the time, I think 46 times. If only 7 were black then he must hate whites.

          • aj

            That’s a fair counter Gregg. And I’m not a 100% on these numbers, but I heard somebody on tv say, that all the calls involving suspicious persons were the 7 involving black.

            Again, I’m not 100%, and would even concede if true it me be coincidence or just profiling rather than “rascism”.

            My opinion, is he wasn’t rascist but was paranoid and took his unofficial role of watch captain so seriously that he let his cultural bias run wild regarding profiling.

          • Gregg

            You could be right but I still think race was not a factor. Who knows? I’ll be called racist for this (maybe not by you) but I don’t care if Zimmerman was a racist. I think hate crimes are stupid and Trayvon would be just as dead whether Zimmerman called him a niggar or said “I love you” just before he pulled the trigger. The fact that he was black is no more or less tragic than if he were white. I really do hate the divisiveness AJ. I bugs me deep down.

          • Karen Frances

            Gregg, 
            The whole plot of this issue was divisiveness, from Obama on down.  Its a huge disservice to ordinary black people and rather than get himself photographed with Al Sharpton, Eric Holder should have come out with a statement against the race baiters trying to stir up riots and threaten riots.  If he was a person of integrity, Holder would have done just that.  Same for Obama.

            These elite people in the media and in government are truly despicable.  53 people died in the Rodney King Riots 20 years ago.  Thousands more were injured.  These elite people have their kids in Sidwell Friends and live integrated neighborhoods of million dollar homes.  

          • Gregg

            I could not agree more but it doesn’t stop there. The contraception thing was manufactured to divide. The class warfare is meant to divide. The “cling to their religion” statements were meant to divide.  It’s awful.

          • Anonymous

            What’s despicable are your inane diatribes.

          • Azra

            You’re so concerned about the 1%, and the widening gap between the haves and the have nots, that you can’t possibly be Republican. If you really don’t want the top 1% to take any more of our money, (knowing that they will use your hard-earned tax payments to buy even more homes, take ever more luxurious vacations on ever more luxurios yachts, arriving in their private jets, landing on one of their private islands – AT OUR EXPENSE – while we have to keep taking on extra jobs so we can feed our hungry children . . . all we’re doing is working for the Romneys in this country. We keep giving them more and more tax breaks, (letting them even more of the money we have worked so very hard for), so THEY can have more houses, penthouses, cars, islands, yachts . . . (FUN!!!!!) . . . as WE sink ever further into the abyss. . . the quicksand of inequality, from which we will never escape, until we stop letting Republicans con us into signing over our lives to them. It’s hard to believe that you would be caught in their snare. Whether you realize it or not, I think that deep inside there’s a loving, caring, nurturing, generous, compassionate humanitarian, (i.e.a Democrat), screaming to be free. You don’t strike me as the type of person who wants to continue to buy, (with your tax dollars!), yachts, homes, islands, jets and more, for some of the wealthiest people in the world. Bet you would rather let them buy their own damn yachts, islands, and jets, and leave you enough to buy a home, yacht, or island of your own. It’s only fair that after working like a slave for so long, you should be able to afford some of those things too. Why should they take it all from us, the saps? They aren’t employed, they have many more million$ than they’ll be able to use in several lifetimes, yet we pay them whatever they ask. (Whay’s wrong with yjis picture???)

            Romney sees no inequality there. In fact, not only won’t he allow the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest to expire, as intended, he also promised to shower them with even more of our money, by getting rid of Medicare, funding for our childrens’ educations, and many more essentials. They only take things away from us, in that “MARVELOUS” Ryan budget, so they can give much bigger tax cuts to the wealthy. The rest of us can rot . . . no, we can’t . . . not everyone . . . they need our taxes for their lifestyles, so their money can stay in those tax havens, earning ridiculously high rates of interest. They plan to continue using the money we earn for them, because we are their worker bees. (Or would you rather be compared to ants? Either way, they’ve got us by the short and curlies, and there’s not a thing we can do about it.)

  • Guest

    Boy, I just wasted way too much time skimming through these childish, pointless, fear-mongering, hate-filled, close-minded comments.  You should all just stop trying to one-up each other with your supposed “facts” (which seem to be no more than your own personal delusions about what really happened) and worry about your own problems.  In particular, Karen’s fantasy comments about Martin’s knockout game sound like she’s been reading a few too many chain emails that say “Very important, please read this and pass it on!!!!” then go on to say why you should never flash your headlights at another car because some gangster will kill you, or if you see a note on your back windshield in a parking garage don’t get out because it’s a rapist’s trick to get you!  Be afraid!  Be very afraid!!!!  Especially of young black kids with lethal fists!  Stand your ground!!!

    I feel a little stupider having spent time in these comments.  I should know better…I’ll stick to the broadcast of the show.

    • Anonymous

       I’m with you. Unfortunately, it’s become a real addiction. I think I need an INTERVENTION.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        I’m trying to let the case run its course, now that it will go to court, hopefully.

    • Karen Frances

      Heres’s an article on the knock-out game, Guest:  
      http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2011-06-09/news/knockout-king-elex-murphy-hoang-nguyen-dutchtown-murder/

      But you won’t bother to read it because you just like patting yourself on the back for what a goodie-goodie you are.  

      And you like attacking people who truly believe in “civil rights” in America.  Civil rights for everyone.

      I bet you like Barack Obama plenty, even though he has killed innocent children in cold blood collecting firewood in Afghanistan.  Killed little boys who really were little boys.  

      • Anonymous

        Do you have any sense of reason or the ability to think critically? Do you get off on this kind nonsense?

      • Thomas

        It seems you are constantly changing the subject to make a point.

      • Azrastarr

        Oi-vey! Let it go already.

      • Still Here

        Karen, you paint a disturbing picture with your words and remind us how upsetting war can be.  Somehow the US government killing babies in Afghanistan or Pakistan matters less than tragedies here because we can’t engender any political gain from those deaths and the parasitic “theologians” know the cameras won’t go there.  

        Thanks for the perspective.

    • Azra

      Pretty incredible, huh? This is my first time at ANY blog. (Life’s too short.) Had to chime in on this one, since I feel so strongly about injustice. Don’t plan to visit once this case is over…way too many hateful fanatics and extremists here. (Poor Tom!)

      Who needs it?

  • Esteban

    Here is an interesting question… Just how “black” does one have to be to be considered “black”? The media has made it very clear that George Zimmerman is a “white Hispanic” and not a “Hispanic”… watching the arraignment yesterday, the dude didn’t look that “white”… maybe a shade or two away from Eric Holder and the President, and they are both “black” men. Zimmerman has a mix of ethnicity and races, I get that. He has a dark complexion similar to many central American ancestries. He is not as dark as Pedro Martinez or Edgar Rentaria, but he is not light skinned, sorry. He certainly is not a European Hispanic. 

    He is plainly Hispanic.

    • Karen Frances

      It was Obama himself who drove the race angle.  Despicable on his part.  “If I had a son he’d look like Trayvon.”   Whuh????   Does Obama think all black people look alike?  It was a bizarre remark.

      But this poking away at race has always been there on both sides politically and in the media.  These are elite people who send their children to “integrated” schools like Sidwell Friends and live in “integrated” neighborhoods of million dollar homes. 

      They are so removed from ordinary people both black and white, as are the self-styled goodie 2 shoes posters on this site, apparently. 

      Ordinary people put crime as a first priority.  Low income people, including poor black people, spend more of their income percentagewise on housing than people with more money because they are trying to get into a safer neighborhood.  The last thing they need in their interest is the elites poking away at race so that some jackasses in their communities can use it as an excuse to cause mayhem. 

      • Esteban

        True… but okay NYT and others, just how black does one have to be to be considered black and not white?

        • Gabe

          I was referring more to Karen Frances asking; “Does Obama think all black people look alike?”  But your point is understood. It depends on who you are talking to. Race is all about perspective.

          • Esteban

            True… but what is the magic cut-off? The NYT, main stream media, and even NPR all seemed to jump on that bandwagon of insuring that everyone in the world knew the George Zimmerman was a “white” Hispanic… not Hispanic… and yet there is silence about this artificial labeling… all meant to enflame people

      • Gabe

        Not to make a direct comment for or against the reasoning you are making, but as a professional illustrator, Obama and Trayvon have similar facial features and skin tone.

        • Azra

          My husband and I also noticed that right away, having seen photos of the President when he was a boy.

      • Azra

        Everything about your remarks is bizarre.

      • Still Here

        So true, he saw an opportunity for political gain.  Now he’s got a potential race war on his hands.  It really blew up in his face.

  • Benjamin

    Knowing nothing about the case except that one guy was wounded and the other shot dead, I can imagine that there was a verbal encounter that preceeded the initial violence that was anything but friendly.  This is worst part about this incident, is how truly avoidable it was.  Imagine if either of these guys had stopped for one second to imagine the other as a “decent” person with a family that loved them, and greeted them like regular human being.

    I think the only way past racism and fear of strangers is to challenge peoples assumptions by letting them get to know you.  Not getting pissed off if they presume you’re a criminal.  The wise will disarm a suspicious stranger with a friendly greeting rather than a bitter retort.  I’ve learned this lesson from my father who is an absolute charmer.  After 30 seconds of talking to him, complete strangers forget what color he is and drop their defenses completely. 

    Maybe the real problem here isn’t racism.  It’s that we’ve forgotten how to be civil and polite to each other, and instead we’ve learned to fear every stranger we encounter as if they were jack-the-ripper.

  • Jpmacco

    I think what many are not talking about it the reason there are these biases and racial profiling. Many have had criminal experiences with African Americans in this country which is often where these biases come from. I am white and the vast majority of my personal experience with the African American community has been positive. But I have lived in many urban cities and the only criminal experiences I have experienced or witnessed have been with this community – there have been five and I have lived in middle income places. I have never experienced a criminal experience with any other race.

    So, if I am walking down the street with hooded African Americans, I may walk on the other side of the street based on wanting to be safe. If I see a hooded African American hanging out late at night, I will be weary. Most African Americans are NOT involved in crime, but many are. There is also a tremendous amount of racism against white people and the government in general; they learn this from their families. There are many who also blame the government for all ills in their lives and are obsessed with the past;this develops complacency and hopelessness. 

  • Balaboy1

    Are their any other lesser or included charges against Zimmerman like 3rd degree murder or 1st degree manslaughter that the jusy could fall back on if 2nd degree murder is a stretch?

    • Balaboy1

      FIXING TYPO: “…that the JURY…”

      • Esteban

        Nope… they shot their wad!!! Cannot go back and change it!!!

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