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Hacking America’s Future

Chinese hackers and American R&D. Is this country’s future being stolen?

Computer circutboard. (Josh Rokman/Flickr)

Computer circutboard. (Josh Rokman/Flickr)

Heir apparent top leader of China, Xi Jinping, in Iowa this morning, visiting old friends.  We hope he had a great country breakfast, a nice chat, a warm reunion.  We really do.  This US-China relationship really matters.  But we’ve got some things to talk about, Mr. Xi, when it comes to China and hacking.  Computer hacking.

The theft in particular of American trade secrets – American R&D, the fruits of American ingenuity.  We’re told it is happening on a vast scale.  A scale so great it could change America’s future.  Steal it.

This hour, On Point:  Chinese hackers and American R&D.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

William Wan, diplomatic correspondent for the Washington Post.

Nicole Perlroth, reporter for the New York Times.

Dmitri Alperovitch, is a former vice president, threat research, for McAfee Labs.

Scott Borg, Director and Chief Economist for The United States Cyber Consequences Unit.

From Tom’s Reading List

CNN “The U.S. top military officer said that, should China’s military be found to be behind hacks into the U.S. infrastructure, it would not necessarily be a hostile act.”

Businessweek “China-based hackers looking to derail the $40 billion acquisition of the world’s largest potash producer by an Australian mining giant zeroed in on offices on Toronto’s Bay Street, home of the Canadian law firms handling the deal.”

New York Times “What might have once sounded like the behavior of a paranoid is now standard operating procedure for officials at American government agencies, research groups and companies that do business in China and Russia — like Google, the State Department and the Internet security giant McAfee. Digital espionage in these countries, security experts say, is a real and growing threat — whether in pursuit of confidential government information or corporate trade secrets. “

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  • Blue387

    Why is there Chinese hacking? What is the motivation for the hackers? Is it nationalism? Is it a government project to undermine America? Or is it for the lulz?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      ‘Z’, ALL of the above!

    • Mr. Trees

      Lulz FTW!

    • Hat moli

      All hackers are motivated by getting something of value for nothing.  In this case, the cost is losing information that took personal, business, or national treasure to create.  I would bet that even our own government hacks into the citizens and businesses to give stolen intellectual property to their favorite cronies.  Hacking just feels more wrong when done from the outside.  We need to keep up on state of the art security practices.  But it just takes seconds to steal gigabytes of documents.  It does have the effect of making people reluctant to be productive if they do not get the recognition (paycheck) because their work is stolen and claimed by others.  Like why buy new stuff when punks are going to rip you off?  If property rights are not given justice, then people are brought down to the lowest moral standards.

  • Fels

    Some od it id corporate greed. In the late 60′s Ampex quit long term investments in audio equipment because it wasn’t a money maker. Japan took it over beat the US  bad. Now corporate America wants to make a killing from global markets and make things “cheap”. Ship it all to China to maximixe profits and eventually they will give it all away for qauerterly profits, ego, and bonuses.

    • Anonymous

      Lenin said that capitalists would sell them the rope to hang capitalists with. That day may have arrived with the big companies moving manufacturing to China where they have to transfer trade secrets to Chinese companies.

      But that has apparently not been enough. The Chinese are following the Russian tradition, exemplified by the theft of the plans for the Concorde supersonic plane developed by the British and French, of stealing directly from the commercial sector.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    As I understand it the current system of intelectual property rights protection is essentially just a loose patchwork of agreements between nations with plenty of gaping holes in it. Factoring in language to protect the little guys as well as a streamlined submission and approval process, what impact would an internationaly recognized and enforced framework for the protection of intelectual property rights have on corporate hacking?

  • Anonymous

    No internet, no problem. A reality based
    firewall limits espionage to good old-fashioned spy-craft

     

    Vulnerabilities are in part due to the perceived
    need for connectivity, every where all the time. Cheaper, faster, more, better
    is the mantra of businesses and government today so here we are confronted with
    the cost of convenience and productivity that everyone wants, but no one wants
    to pay for.

     

    Some vulnerability is due to lazy security
    policies by IT. Some is due to feeble security architecture of Windows and Unix
    Operating systems. Over the years the application of bubblegum and band-aids to
    patch the holes has limited the vulnerabilities but not erased them.

     

    Now, with the internet relied upon to
    download microcode upgrades to network controllers and smartphones well… you
    get what you pay for: there are bots in everyone’s phone. SkyNet lives! And that,
    sadly, is no joke.

     

    Until we are willing to sacrifice
    convenience for real security, we remain effectively defenseless.

    • Modavations

      What up Black Fang

    • Anonymous

      Consider the demands of governments in the Middle East to deny permits for anyone to bring in a Blackberry phone until its strong encryption processed was compromised so the governments “could monitor for terrorist communications.” Once out of the bag, any communication, terrorist or not is vulnerable to others with “illegal” interests.

  • Greg

    China is at war with the US, we are in denial. They poison beef feed (mad cow disease), toothpaste, pet food and bottled water. They steal every idea that we patent (on-line patent servers help them). They have no place to put the massive cash they have on hand so they simply do as they will as always, just now with a real capacity. China is involved in human trafficing and genocide, yet we maintain “favored nation status” for them. It is up to us to close the trade doors to China and end the tax breaks/incentives that make it cheaper for businesses to outsource jobs, manufacturing to outside the USA. We need leadership, not finger pointing. Human rights and intellectual property rights are no joke, big business is involved in exploiting us and sets the precident for foriegn nations to do the same. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      I AGREE!  How many people will be able to look past their own profit, to see this?

      • Greg

        Thank you.
        There is no profit in handing over factories and logistics to China. It failed for Ford when China flooded the parts market with proprietary sensors and other service parts. It failed when Jeep set up manufacturing in China and they built a copy of the factory a mile down the road. They will never respect rights let alone laws in an environment without consequences.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Want to bet that the executives that made these ‘bad’ decisions, didn’t add to their ‘off-shore’ accounts, or other ‘profits’?

          • Modavations

            The Greeeeedy Greeedies.I think we’re up to 5 Bleats,so far

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Guppy’s goat is at least getting your comments to be more accurate.
               Greeeeeedy Greeeeedies?  Way to go goat!

      • Modavations

        Come on,come on get it off your chest.The Greeeeeeeeedy,Greeeeeeedies

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Thanks Moda.  I’m glad you mentioned it!

          • Modavations

            Don’t worry,days young.By 10:00 PMyou’ll have mentioned them all 50 or 60 times

    • Anonymous

      Wow. It is amazing that someone actually believes this stuff that you are spewing out. That the Chinese deliberately poison beef feed, toothpaste, pet food and bottled water to undermine the US. Genocide? China is being demonized left and right, anti-Chinese frenzy is reaching a new height in the US. Many Americans see things as black and white, how ignorant and silly.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Your explaination?  From the viewpoint of your screen-name?

        • Anonymous

          My explanation? What explanation? The US does not spy on others? The US doesn’t hack? How childish.To me, anyone who believes that the Chinese are deliberating trying to poison the Americans to death belong in a mental institution.

      • Greg

        No US genocide. 50 years of genocide in Tibet. I am neither ignorant or silly, these things I speak of are factual.

        • Anonymous

          You are apparently ignorant then. No genocide in the US? I am sure the native Americans would disagree. 50 years of genocide in Tibet? Why don’t you check the population growth rate of the ethnic Tibetans in Tibet and tell me how so?

        • Anonymous

          No genocide in the US? I am sure the native Americans would disagree. 50 years of genocide in Tibet? Why don’t you check the population growth rate of the ethnic Tibetans in Tibet and tell me how so?

    • Anonymous

      What China is doing is just what “capitalists” do when they are not strongly regulated. The fabric manufacturing mills built along New England rivers were created from designs stolen by “tourists” shown their plants by British owners confident that enough details could not be absorbed on the tours of the plants.

      The big difference is the scale of the effort and the ease with which it is being allowed.

      The first manufacturers decided that they could “always” keep improving things so they would always have something “better.” But with the 0.1% wealthiest Americans demanding rewards in less taxes the government has reduced its spending for research, both basic and applied and the supply pipe for those “improvements” is shrinking in diameter and with current Republican control of the House cutting just about ALL research funding to offer tax loopholes to the fossil fuel industry, that pipe will develop a crimp reducing that flow to a drip, insufficient for the U.S. to maintain an advantage.

      Note how chemical and other manufacturing companies have resisted attempts to require them to protect their facilities from terrorist attack, because of the “costs.” These costs will be small with respect to the loss of sales in the future.

      • TFRX

        Agreed; “deliberately poison” isn’t really the word I’d use. If you and your parents (like me and mine) have been living your entire lives since the Pure Food and Drug Act (1906? not sure), there’s no comparison. It’s always been “toothpaste is toothpaste”.

        Debasement and alterations of manufactured goods are what capitalists do when they can get away with it. I’ve read much of its long, fascinating history circa the 19th century in this country. We’ve got the civilization in this country that keeps us from wondering what’s in our stuff. Some other countries don’t, yet.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Our computers, whether cell phones, digital watches, smart appliances, automobile controls, air traffic control, stock market controls, television control circuits, and SO MUCH MORE, are mostly made in China, or similiar countries!  
       If there is NOT peace and tranquility, between us and these countries, WHY not expect built-in problems, and built-in abilities to control?
       Low-lifes hack in and steal, or cause serious problems, for theft, or other evil ends!   WHY would you expect less from any country that can promote their own ends?

    • Modavations

      Speaking of Beijing Someone told me you have a portrait of Mao and Stalin in your basement.A shrine,of sorts.Unions gave 200 million to Democrats last cycle alone.I’ll bet the greeeeedy rich,colluding with pERVERT pRIESTS made the low lifes hack into our systems.GM missed their mark today.They’re hemorrhaging in Europe and S.America,Why you ask?The Unions!!!.The Unions killed Eastern Airlines,they killed GM,they killed American,they killed the P.Office,they killed….

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Wow!   Your hallucinations are really getting out there?  Even for you? 

  • Patrik

    This may be stating the obvious but the internet is not going away, it’s too embedded in our lives.  This situation with hackers is merely another consequence of its existence and we, the U.S., need to find a solution to it as with any other technological problems in the past. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      You propose a nice dream!  I hope it reaches reality! 
          It would have to be completely different, as China, Iran, Israel, Russia, and hackers now have so much ability and control of development ability?

      • Patrik

        That’s a good point TTT.  I wonder if this is the evolution of the global-ized world?  Where no one Nation, Group, etc.. holds complete control on ideas and innovations, that those ideas or innovations simply become absorbed and used by everyone.

        • Modavations

          All invention ,as well as the highest standards of living come from the Capitalist countries.What has Japan,or China ever invented(skip the gun powder and spaghetti riff)

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Skip some of the first, most important?  WHY?  Just so you can make your invalid point?

  • Greg

    CSX is a railroad company that is owned by two brothers (see Forbes 100 richest list).  They are spending a fortune dumming us down with ads that claim impossible fuel efficiency. The claim of something like “we move a millions tons of freight on a single gallon of fuel” masks the lobbying effort that is being made that would allow them to link the east coast to the west coast by a rail monopoly, effectively strangling our goods infrastucture (shipping industry) and driving another spike or two in organized labor in this country. The money they spend on this effort is staggering.

    With China controlling a USA port and linking the coasts by rail we face further seperation from our own economy. To think the land taking that took place to build the continental rail will result in a foreign country monopolizing our infrastucure! The irony!

    • Modavations

      General G,commander of the liberated middle states,I think Buffet owns a lot of CSX.Buffet,whose secretary makes a paltry 250-500,000.00 per annum.Remember that poor waif?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Stolen Valor?

        • Modavations

          No Terry he’s not a real general.Listen I was down the university a few days ago showing the Prof.some silver specimens I recently scored.His pal,an anthropological Prof.came in for a coffee.We got to discussing Lucy and Leaky and all that.You’re now famous.I told about you and my theory that you are indeed,the “Missing Link”

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Maybe the ‘Missing Link’ to any chance of you getting the help, you obviously need?

    • Anonymous

      That is because the Republicans do not see government having any role in transportation, at least at the federal level (except the Interstates). Warren Buffett bought Northern Pacific Railroad for the profit in shipping Montana/Wyoming (etc.) coal to Oregon/Washington ports on its way to China.

      This country does need better rail service for both freight and people. The cost of flying is much higher in fuel than rail. Have you noted how long a freight train is? They travel slower than 50 mph and change speeds only incrementally. Whether the number cited by CSX is for the best section of track or not, rail is the cheapest means to move goods. Where the problem is comes at the “ends” where the goods have to be distributed. So much of the spurs to destination points have been torn up that a full rail start-to-end is impossible for most shipments. But some optimization should be attempted.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Too bad, that decades ago, railroad execs took the profits, did minimal maintenance, and expected the tax-payer to pick up the tab. 
           Our railroads WERE the envy of the world!  MANY U.S. industries, concepts, and capabilities WERE the envy of the world!

  • Hidan

    Lets face it American companies and the likes of the
    Chamber of Commerce sold out the American public for short term gains and high profits at the top. China was smart enough to have these companies share information with them for working in China. American Corporation agreed and are now complaining cause the information shared is now hurting there bottom-line and putting some out of business. So than these same Corporation that lobbied for subsidies to outsource to china and the likes are now lobbying congress to stop china from using what these companies previously agreed to share.

    I remember back in the 90′s the below are frown and condemned  but by time bush took his second term it was the norm.

    http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

  • Hidan

    CNN
    “The U.S. top military officer said that, should China’s military be
    found to be behind hacks into the U.S. infrastructure, it would not
    necessarily be a hostile act.”

    The reason for the above statement is congress passed a law that hacking by in Foreign government could be considered an act of war. This was mainly aimed at Iran or Iran attempting to response to the Stuxnet virus. (another way to force war with Iran) but both Russia, China, and Israel all hack against the U.S. and according to the New Law the U.S. would be forced to respond military. So like most laws in the U.S. official will find loop-holes to prevent being forced to do so.

    • Modavations

      dude no one reads you.You’re a one trick pony.I have pals who’ve had their e-mails hacked by the Chinese.It’s a Police State

      • Terry Tree Tree

        You COMPLETELY  missed Hidan’s point?

        • Modavations

          It’s always the same point and I don’t miss anything.How’s the hangover

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The SAME point?  Which is the ONLY point that I make?

        • Ellen Dibble

          Terry, you are awesome.  By the way, a troll who wants to be inaccessible, particularly in a 1000-post thread, wants a name like “It” or “Are” or even better, “Ing,” which a search would find about 2,000 times.  But once you find it, you can click the image and see previous posts and see how helpful and insightful they are.

          • Modavations

            How many Phantoms have I posted under Madam?

          • Ellen Dibble

            I wasn’t speaking of you.  I think Terry might figure out what I had in mind.  Some people actually HAVE names that are unsearchable.  I’m not divulging what or who.  But hi, thanks for being yourself.

          • Modavations

            Sorry!!!

          • Ellen Dibble

            No problem.  Thanks for caring.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Ellen, I’m not sure what you are referring to, but it’s not important to me, to try to ferret out who the detractors are. 
               As you can see with Moda, I’m used to being put down, by those trying to ‘compensate’ for their obvious faults.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Thanks, Ellen.  Me, awesome?  I rarely hear anything close to that.
               Millionaires, that do little or nothing to help Volunteer Emergency Services, denounce me!  I think it is to cover their knowledge of their own failings!

          • Ellen Dibble

            Medal of Honor for Online Persistence and Determination.  

          • Terry Tree Tree

            I hope I can stop laughing, long enough to thank you for that?
               I wasn’t aware of such a medal?
               You are one of those aware of the history of it all!
               Bullies expect you to cower in fear?

          • Ellen Dibble

            They can expect all they want, but one would have to pose as my mother, and even then…  

  • Brandstad

    Of course China is stealing US intellectual property.  That is why they require all us manufacturers to have a 60/40 joint venture with a Chinese company in order to open a factory in China.  

    The problem is Chinese engineers are not very good and they can only copy, not create!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      I wouldn’t bet that Chinese engineers can only copy?
         These are the people that invented gun-powder, pasta, and several other inventions and innovations, that the rest of the world enjoys, or has enjoyed the use of.

      • Modavations

        It’s a police state.Oh,I forgot,you’re into Police States

  • Anonymous

    Tom Ashbrook is adding fuel to the growing anti-Chinese fire consuming the Americans. Some of the comments so far are just downright pathetic and ignorant. The absurdity is beyond words.

    • Patrik

      I agree Lufts.  Hacking == Only Chinese.  It really should be focusing hackers from across the globe but Chinese relations and trade are on the front burners for many politicos this month given the upcoming leadership change there and the election season here.

      • Patrik

        That being said it’s worthwhile for Tom to discuss this issue, he’s not throwing fuel to the fire.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Good luck covering this.  I would expect computer programmers and scientists involved in digital encryption would be on the leading edge of this issue.  I also think if more Americans spoke fluent Mandarin or Cantonese we would have a better chance in a secret-stealing show-down.  I suppose anyone hoping to make a living from writing in English (journalists, authors) has a different take.  If you write a technically oriented textbook, say on microeconomics, you’d know it would be stolen and translated.  If you are a novelist, you might think it a kind of coup to be stolen from and translated, even though without remuneration.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Theft is theft!  Fire-fighting equipment, or intellectual property!

      • Modavations

        Bleat # 4
        I’m a fireman,I’m a Fireman and the junkies stole all the hoses.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          You’re now claiming to be a Fireman?  More Stolen Valor, from your self-proclaimed ‘chemical’ background?

  • Modavations

    I’d hitch hike before I’d get on a Chinese Bullet Train.I’d say if the Chinese shot off a nuke there’d be a 50-50 chance the nuke would fall back on Beijing.The per capita wage in China is $2000.00 per year.You need Green Cards to come from the country into the city.Finally,only dopes would lend money to the U.S….That’s it for me kids,gotta go flog some jewelry.

    • nj

      “That’s it for me…”

      One can only hope.

      • Modavations

        You vile little man.Unloosen the panties,let the blood flow to the “noodle”

        • nj

          I knew it was too good to be true. How can we miss him when he won’t go away?

          • Modavations

            3 crows on a Tel.Line  Caw Caw,Caw Caw

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Moda just wanted to see if anyone would really miss him? 
               Moda’s self-proclaimed ADHD, let him forget he promised he was going away?

        • TFRX

          Ooh, he said you wear women’s clothing!

          The King of the Second Grade Playground is in fine form today.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Moda whines about name-calling?

  • U.S. Vet.

    Don’t forget about the ‘secret’ stealth helicopter that crashed in the “Bin Laden Raid” a few months back.

    The Pakistani goverment crated it off and gave it to the Chinese military.

    P.S.
    Those of you still believe that President Obama “got Bin Laden”,
    check out this Youtube video where the former Pakistani Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto, stated in a 2007 interview that Bin Laden had already been murdered by Omar Sheikh!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxMBkWY_uZY&feature=related

    • GimmeBreak

      Weapons-grade conspiracy theorist right here.

      • U.S. Vet.

        Sure slick,  

        Benazir Bhutto was a conspiracy theorist because she stated that Bin Laden had already been killed, back in 2007!

        Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, you seem to like it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    Can we just admit already that we are in a state of 21st century brinksmanship, dare I say Cold War, with China? I do not want it to be so but government policies and public opinons on both sides of the Pacific increasingly point right to this being the case.

    • Anonymous

      The Chinese certainly don’t want a cold war, the Americans do. The US government and a lot of Americans (according to a recent Pew poll, a great majority of Americans) are seeing China as the next evil empire, a primary enemy that needs to be contained, cornered and undermined. According to these people the Chinese can’t do anything right and they have an evil plot to undermine America. It is ironic that a society prizing for its individuality and diversity of views is becoming increasingly monolithic (and closed-minded) when it comes to China. Alright Americans, let’s go to war with China!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/QMDZ3LH5U2B4GAT7J2HS4TCP6E Jim

    I was quite busy this week and almost miss every article in this tuesday’s WSJ. but when i look at the headline about the Nortel case, I am shock and upset. I can’t believe these things can happen to a then multinational corporation. I think this act is going to be the next cold war or worse.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jim-Walts/1366163819 Jim Walts

    My first thought is, here is yet another reason to strengthen our local economies. Local people providing for local people’s basic needs.

  • Ca_brit

    The honest truth is that Americans have more affinity to money than they do to their fellow citizens. The American CEOs sow the wind in 1990s/2000s when they shipped jobs overseas, now the American workers are reaping the whirlwind.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    I was informed that the battery does NOT have to be in a cell phone, for it to be accessed ?

    • http://wade419.wordpress.com/ wade419

       Not really sure how that could be possible. Any circuit (esp. a power-hungry one like a phone) needs some source of regulated power to do anything useful. 

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Dig deeper into it?

    • Anonymous

      If there is something in it that acts like an RFID chip, the data on that “chip” would be retrievable, but it is unlikely that the received power would be enough to power other memory not to mention a microphone. It would take a bit of circuitry that would be too obvious to “slip in.” The whole phone, etc., would have too much “extras” to pass  “need” in a device where real estate is precious.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Piezo-electric microphones PRODUCE electricity.

  • PI Resident

    If the Chinese can remotely turn on your cell phone’s microphones and camera:   do you think that the US can do the same?
    With a warrant?

  • Jay

    I’m tuning in late. I believe it was on 60 minutes a few years ago where a high US official in the know said that China had stolen all of our nuclear secrets, yes 100%.

  • Anonymous

    Did they develop the hacking technology themselves?

  • Tribalguitars

    Hackers nothin’! Not that they’re not a huge threat, as they are, hence the show. But China’s demanding that business wanting to do business in China bring the R&D and tech with them, Boeing being a prime example.  But look at what’s happening. One US maker of mining equipment found out the hard way because China now had everything they needed to make it themselves.  Also, look at what’s happened to Ford’s F150 (#1 selling truck in the world), which was lifted piece for piece by a Chinese maker, like other automakers have found their cars being rolled out as cheap knock-offs.  If I was Ford, I’d threaten (if not actually) roll up shop, raze the factory, and refuse doing  business with China and any country doing business with any country that’s buying Chinese knock-off F150s. How long before China’s subsidizing and building knock-off Boeing superliners?  What’s this going to cost the American economy.

  • Yar

    It is sad when the most relevant news of the day comes from a comedy show.  The connections between military intelligence, political intelligence, hacking, and the patriot act with insider trading are blurred when they should be bright.  http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-15-2012/louise-slaughter
    Just because your paranoid, doesn’t mean they are not out to get you.  Our government is trying to find information out about individuals and
    companies, both domestic and foreign.  This is why we need separation of powers.  Government information gathering employees (including lawmakers) should not invest in the market. When is information considered inside?  
    I fear our own spies more than China.
    Look at the other side of the coin.
    What behavior are we modeling?
    How long will it be before we steal information from Asia to compete?
    I bet we already are.

  • Barry

    Wow!  Kudos to William Gibson for forseeing all this in his 1984 Neuromancer.  Once again, only science fiction can let us comprehend the scale of what’s happening here, from the displacement of political entities by corporations to the role of technology in determining our collective futures.

  • Modavations

    Hey kids,I know guys that have had their e-mails hacked by these guys.That’s really it I’m late.Play nice

  • Ellen Dibble

    Cyberlosses can’t be talked about?
    Hey, we want to boycott stuff manufactured by companies in China that stole the IP and then jobs from us.
    Get the info out there.

    • Anonymous

      Just as companies that had credit cards compromised, tainted food put on the market, or car companies with component defects:

      1) The companies are embarrassed.

      2) The companies treat it as the “cost of doing business.”

      3) Future customers may be turned away.

      4) Stockholders may get angry and sell, lowering stock price.

      5) It might encourage others to try to similarly steal information from them.

      6) They might get sued by stockholders or others.

      After all, what’s not to like about unrestrained capitalism? In general (and for derivatives in particular) transparency in the marketplace limits the possibility of profit.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        GREAT POINTS!!

      • Ellen Dibble

        Transparency as inimical to profit, hmm.  What an idea!  I’m still not clear though on the issue.  

        Say I’m a stockholder, and my company is getting attacked, why would I sue my company rather than the forces attacking it?  I mean, aren’t there police (cyber police) to protect businesses from harm?  
        Maybe I would sue the police, the government, for allowing this, but I think it would be better to let my customers know right away so they could spread the word, boycott/sanction, etc. — before the whole company has trouble that affects more than “just” its reputation (reputation for being immune to theft, I guess).   I think there’s more to this, probably so obvious that it escapes me.

  • Anonymous

    Hey, don’t blame the Chinese, if the American IT do a better job in safe guarding their systems, All these would not happened. 
    Once again, the hostility point the finger to China. Without fixing the security holes in the US computer systems, any John Doe in the world can penetrated. So don’t blame anyone but yourself. 

    • Anonymous

      While not locking your door is stupid, it doesn’t excuse the burgler.

  • Sandy Untermyer, Appling GA

    Check out this month’s issue of Mac Format magazine, covering Apple devices, both iOS and Mac OS. Apple was urged in an editorial there to dump Foxconn and build their own factories, just as it used to in the Mac’s early dayth with Steve Jobs, way back in the 1980s and 90s, because of espionage. (Incidentally, Foxconn is NOT a Red Chinese company, but a Taiwanese company.) At the time of his death, Steve Jobs was seriously involved in both that project and in the new television Apple has already begun to build (not yet announced to the public for sale). 

  • Jay

    There was a consumer product, a digital picture frame that displayed a photo “slide show” (it was connected to one’s PC. It was reported in the news (a few years ago) that that product was hacked by China and was sending all the info in one’s computer to a place in southern China.
    China has the enormous manpower to sort out all the chaff and report to their superiors when they hit the gold mine of hitting a US scientist’s home computer. They then have more knowledgeable computer people examine that US computer in depth.

  • Guest

    Perhaps I am fool, but I have serious doubts about how large the scale of corporate espionage that the guests are accusing China of conducting.  If it is true that China is looking at all documents of all the top Fortune 2000 companies, that is a large amount of information to not only to scan, read, and digest, and act upon.  Just one company alone can produce terabytes of data in one year.  Think of all the emails, vocie messages, text messages, word documents, spread sheets, 3D diagrams, etc.

    This requires an IT infrastructure, computers, and AI software that would be light years ahead of what we have.  If that is the case, then why would China want anything of ours?  I’m sure that the threat is real, but at the scale at what they are talking about?  I doubt it, call me a fool.

  • Anonymous

    “Most companies in China are state-owned” -Dmitri Alperovitch. Wow, what an expert. Check your fact first!

  • Anonymous

    I’m not sure why you are pursuing this issue only that it is taking place in the psyber sphere.    The fledgling U.S. took a lot of info from others. And if you are so uninitiated in the world not to realize that capitalism is war than you are just pandering and whipping sentiments of the right wing for hot war.  Also the U.S. uses it’s power what ever it is in every way possible to gain every advantage possible.    We or or the ruling class love there position in the world they are willing do any thing they can including like General Electric to move the headquarters of there corporations to china.   The whole failure of the present system is that we use secrecy to gain profit that creates an inability to cooperate.   Cooperation is the only why humanity can survive!  

  • Anonymous

    So China is single-handedly depriving the world of future global economic growth. China’s everyone’s enemy!!Can we bomb China now?

  • http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/ Neil Blanchard

    Open Source Design — share your design and benefit from a collaborative design.

    Let’s earn a profit from building useful, well made, devices and machines designed to last a lifetime.

    What a concept!

    Neil

  • Ograham

    An implicit assumption here is that the attacker will be able to make sense of the data (not the same as information) they collect.

    It’s been my personal & professional experience working with computer systems, that it’s VERY difficult to understand what the guy in the next cubicle is doing (which may or may not be relevant to my work).

    There’s also the “telephone game” effect where information becomes distorted/corrupted as it is passed around.

  • http://wade419.wordpress.com/ wade419

    I work at a research university, and a system administrator recently set up a dummy server to monitor hacking attempts.  He revealed the stats for one week of attempted hacks on only one machine:

     - There were nearly 4,400 separate unauthorized login attempts on just one (dummy!) machine in one week. 

    - Out of all individual login attempts, 16 computers account for 4,281 out of 4,372 (97.9%) attempts. These are launched from Chinese machines 72.5% of the time.

    • TomK in Boston

      All you have to do is read your system logs. Essentially all this stuff comes from outside the USA, as does all spam. It’s a jungle out there.

      With so many functions controlled over data networks now, it’s only common sense to realize this is a new front for warfare. Imagine if the “pilot” in a trailer in AZ tells the drone to fire, and nothing happens? Why not, it’s just a stream of bits. Why not steal your competitors ideas? A lot of sci-fi will be coming real.

  • PassinThru

    If I steal your car, I have it and you don’t. This is not theft. This is copying. Once the other guy has it, if comes down to who can execute better. Are we saying we can’t compete if the other guy knows what we do?

    There may come a time when everyone knows everything, no secrets exist for very long. It will then come down to who does a better job with that information. If we can really compete, we’ll win. If not, we’ll lose.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I think we can make assumptions.  To bring things to a personal level, my tech support for my computer is now from India, near Delhi.  Originally it was with an American firm, and I seem to recall someone’s recommendation had led me to it, and apparently the American tech support group got bought out by the Indian group, because their site was letting you link to them.  Within the USA, similar things happen, a local guy makes cool motorized bicycles, and gets written up in the local newspaper, and within a month is bought out and moves to Georgia, doing who knows what.  Maybe retired.
       Or take the particular business plan and skill set that I use, I do see it butting up against people who see profits in putting me out of business, in transporting me and my skills to China, or Russia.  It’s one world.

  • http://krisbunda.com/blog Designer_Rants

    Your guests still didn’t answer how protectionism is bad when it comes to mfg jobs, but good for trade secret information? The caller’s question is worth more probing.

    • Anonymous

      I thought that was a very good question.

  • Yar

    Amazon put a mic in my kindle, not for my benefit, because no application uses it. Did China do that?

  • Anonymous

    Funny that just the other day there was an article about hostility toward China, in the mean time, the US try to get more “investment” from China. Time after time
    Tom Ashbrook insinuates this stereotyped, prejudice attitude toward China, Tom what do you have against China?  STOP PROMOTING STEREOTYPED ideologies! I can’t believe WBUR would let a right wing host on its radio show. That why I don’t donate to WBUR anymore. 

    • Anonymous

      The problem with the discussion today is that has invited two like-minded “experts” who are trying their best, with Tom Ashbrook’s help, to paint a very black and white picture without any room for a more nuanced viewpoint. Tom Ashbrook is indeed an alarmist when it comes to China.

  • Anonymous

    I don’t think we’ve ‘hacked’ into China’s labor force. As far as I know we were up front about it. We’re paying for that labor.

  • Khjacobs

    Wasn’t the reason Solarium was not successful was becuase China underpriced them?  Does anyone know anything about this?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Solyndra? 
          This was listed as part of the reason for their collapse.  Chinese Solar Panel prices were dropped severely, just as Solyndra was about to start manufacturing.  I believe there were other reasons, too.

  • DavidWm

    Apple takes advantage of low wages to hugely profit. Do the American people benefit????? No,  only the shareholders who can be FROM ANYWHERE!!! Why should the average American citizens care???

    • Anonymous

      Most American’s holding a 401k with mutual funds will benefit from Apple’s success. Apple is also one of SEVERAL other US tech companies using FOXCON, but it’s actually bringing the attention to the workers plight.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Why are we talking about Hacking? When the world is in the brink of another war with Iran.

  • Yar

    Why don’t files have an attribute that keeps them from being copied onto remote computers?  It would have stopped Bradly Manning.

  • Badolliecat

    I don’t like theft and I don’t like cheats. 
    That said I recall so many US businesses “hacking-off” the future of so many workers here in the US by simply out-sourcing for an extra buck and now these same businesses are reaping what they’ve sown. 
    Hope Wall St crooks will reap what they’ve sown shortly too.
    Unfortunately the innocent workers inside these companies are also going to suffer if the company goes down because of China’s hacking.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If China demolishes our economy, what will they do with all our debt that they hold?

    • Anonymous

      We should use it for reparations.

      • Ellen Dibble

        If they defeat us, I think usually the reparations are paid by the defeated.  Oh, my head.  

    • Robdel

      Buy real estate, companies, (politicians) etc…

      • Ellen Dibble

        Rather than conquer us, just own us.  Much easier than trying to control us independent types.  Us unruly types.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          We unruly, independent types can be OWNED?  Killed, maybe?

          • Ellen Dibble

            I think it might be China’s worst nightmare trying to lord it over us.  Where is Confucius to teach us conformity, hierarchy, respect?   I just have a feeling killing us would ruin the turf.  Remember Plymouth Rock, and all the Indians’ homes were vacant and available because smallpox had wiped out most of the populace, so English people could help repopulate the place.  Just remember not to use the blankets. And make friends ASAP.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        More of the same that they’ve been doing for decades?  Not very creative?

  • Anonymous

    Can a hacker fix DISQUS so that it will update recent posts again?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      I exposed that problem a few days ago, along with another.  Here’s hoping!

  • John

    I have a hard time getting upset about american companies getting robbed by the Chinese or anybody. Doesn’t GE do as much as they can to avoid paying american taxes? Corporations are now individuals. I don’t see them looking out for my interests. Part of prospering is looking out out for yourself. Until corporations start acting like responsible citizens, God Bless the hackers. 

  • Guest

    I’m interested in the other side of it, the American companies that may have put backdoors into software to gain access to sensitive information in China, Russia, etc.

  • Jonathan Sudbury

    Has anyone yet pointed out the historical parallel with America’s industrial (very high tech stuff in the 1820′s and on) rise vs. the United Kingdom (heart and birthplace of the Industrial Revolution). I come from Boston, and one local example is the great New England Mills. Made with “stolen” tech. SO many other examples. Now, note that the U.S. was also, right out of the gate, innovating and inventing as it went(!) Why do we think we are so “exceptional” and that this century will be so different? The ability for the Chinese to invent, my guess, is no different than Americans in the 19th C. despite all are theft. Think of Edison, Alexander G. Bell, barbed wire, some railroad tech, Cyrus McCormick, etc. etc. etc. And the Brits et al knew and complained bitterly about America’s tendency to steal intellectual property. Go figure, history repeats itself ?! Chuckle.

    • Jonathan Sudbury

      Forgive my typos… excited fast commenting hazard :)

      • Terry Tree Tree

        I can forgive them, when you acknowledge them.  Some make LOTS, then find minor faults with others, as a cover.

      • RWS

        I didn’t even notice.  Well-considered commentary, though I don’t entirely agree with it.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Interesting parallel.  By the way, lately PBS has an upcoming feature piece that says “the real McCoy” was an African American inventor who found no economic opportunity in the United  States and therefore went to Scotland and pursued his inventions there.  (That is just my best memory, but someone can find that, I’m sure.  America hasn’t always fostered opportunity for all.) 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Thanks!   I had some of this, and more, in mind.

  • Wryspark

    It’s interesting for me, as a songwriter whose attempt at intellectual property protection was summarily crushed several weeks back, to hear the identical arguments being made on behalf of software, schematics, and client lists by the Googles who’ve facilitated my own demise.  Perhaps we are in this together?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Could someone in IT intellectual property really have anything in common with someone in ART intellectual property?
         I am being facetious here.

  • Anonymous

    One word the US never learn is introspection. Just look at how dysfunctional our own government is, our own government can’t even take care our own citizens, ran trillions in debt, while the Wall street crooks pocket billions in their oversea accounts. So don’t take your anger on China while we need China’s help.    

  • Roy Mac

    I think I agree with the ex-software developer who is now in software sales.  Scott & Dmitri’s pitches sounded an awful lot like the Y2K menace of the late 1990′s.

  • Unintellectual

    I did not read the article or listen to the whole program. But if I may, I want to comment on this topic and be the devil’s advocate for the sake of discussion.
    How is Intellectual property is created? I would assume that the intellectual create that property. Who are those intellectual? It seems more often than, not quite a few of these intellects are foreign born ( like myself, foreign born part, not the intellectual part;). Has’nt USA benefited from these immigrants whose education was subsidized by poor and third world nations all these years? USA and the its corporations had a policy to lure these immigrants and then conveniently circumvent our own laws and retain these immigrants here than returning them as per our own visa regulations and requirements. So how was that legitimate and proper to systematically profit from the brain drain from poor countries to enrich ourselves and we want to make a hue and cry , now that  we are at the receiving end of this deception. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    The greatest hacker I ever known was from the Philippines. The ILOVEYOU Virus

    remember the Y2K incident?

  • Anonymous

    I called into the show asking why US consumers should care, if we’re getting lower-cost products in return for silicon valley companies losing their right to intellectual property protectionism.

    The only response Dmitri could muster is that we will lose our new knowledge economy jobs?

    I understand that Dmitri might lose *his* job if someone in China can more cheaply produce the “work” that he does, but for everybody who doesn’t have a cushy consulting gig, are we supposed to support an international regime of deep packet inspection so that he can keep his paychecks coming in?

    When you refuse to show any solidarity with manufacturing workers, don’t be surprised that they don’t see a reason to protect *your* job, *your* right to a profit.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Someone else on the panel did point out that when China figures out how to make the gizmo better, they take the manufacturing jobs and make the gizmo cheaper, with cheaper labor, in China.  So the process does take the manufacturing jobs as well as the motivation to innovate (knowledge economy jobs).  The two go hand in hand.  If it’s an American company like Apple that takes its manufacturing to China for the cheap labor, that’s one thing, and we can talk to the CEO types about that.  But if it’s Chinese companies making the copies of American-designed products because of cyber theft of the expertise and so on, well, we can’t negotiate the same way with the thieves as with American CEO’s.  

      That’s the way I understand it.  If we keep the intellectual property we create on American soil, we may and we can and hopefully we soon will be keeping the manufacturing jobs here as well.

    • Hat moli

       The Soviet Union got the A & H-bombs via a document transfer from the US.  Some say FDR folks deliberately passed the info to them.  USSR Diplomatic pouches were opened by a military guy in Montana and he later recognized that they were nuclear terms.  The plane was on its way to Russia in 1945.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        Your history is wrong my friend. The Russians captured some of the German Scientists. America was just lucky that Warner Van Braun surrendered to the Americans not with the Russians.
        if he surrendered to the Russians. What country do you think will land on the moon first?

        A B-29 bomber landed on the eastern coast of russian. that’s why the Russians were able to built the Bear bomber. which is a copy of the
        B-29 Super fortress.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      I heard your comment on the show..thought is was nonsense then, and you have added nothing new by your post here.

    • Kmh5004

      what is your job?  Do you make the cheapest something on the planet?  I doubt it because the only things we can  make in this country with our labor costs are high end products.  If we lose the high end market because our research is stolen then we lose the white collar engineering jobs and the blue collar tech manufacturing jobs.  Then those people don’t spend their money at local shops and restaurants.  Which industry are you in that you think this is not a big deal?

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        Yes we make high end products like New Balance sneakers from Maine. but the cost of high end products are not good for the American economy because of quantity versus quality. Quality products are very expensive not suitable for mass market.

        • Kmh5004

          Quality products are all we can compete on.  We don’t compete with china well on the low end, though we do buy that stuff.  Where we do better than them is cutting edge.  If they don’t know how to make it, then we have jobs.

          • Brandstad

            Your point is true, but it is also completely because labor costs in china are about $1-5 per day vs $100 per day min in the US

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The price of CEOs?

          • Modavations

            Bleat 2…
            The Greeeedy,Greeedies

          • Terry Tree Tree

            This goat is doing better than Moda!

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Aren’t sweat-shop manufactured Nike, and others priced MUCH higher, than U.S. mfg New Balance?

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            I am not sure. as far as i know some New Balance sneakers are still manufactured in Maine. NE model sneakers that are still made in USA.

      • Anonymous

        I asked why I should care as a consumer, not as a worker. There are only so many “knowledge economy” jobs to go around, and this discussion is skewed if we all start pretending we are patent holders, or that our interests align with those of our patent-holding bosses.
        I don’t in fact have a problem with tarrifs, etc., but I do have a problem with us respecting one person’s right to make a living over another’s. And that perspective was baked into the discussion that was being had.
        Sorry if there are errors in this. I’m typing on my phone and the window won’t stay on the text box!

  • Mrlongleg1962

    I moved from Germany to the US. In the late 90′s early 2000′s many mid size German companies tried outsourcing to China to save on manufacturing cost, just to find out that their production know was stolen and their product were coming to Germany for half the price from dubious Chinese manufacturers. They learned their lesson and many of them come back and close production in China, happily paying higher wages in Germany. German unemployment is the lowest in decades right now. This could work for the US too, on a much larger scale of course…

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      German products are not made for Quantity. they make it for Quality. Americans need quantity because of the size of the American market. if America goes quality those American companies will not survive.

      • Ellen Dibble

        American products used to be dependably dependable.  You bought your toaster, and expected it to last as long as the marriage, if not longer.  Now products are designed for obsolescence, and the national graveyard of superseded products bears witness to this.  
            What I mean is that if you’re designing a disposable paper napkin, quality has a different meaning than if you’re designing an heirloom piece of fabric.   Germany’s government has been supporting the highly trained workforce, as the PBS Newshour has been showing, through the economic collapse, keeping trained people in “quality”-centric enterprises ready for lift-off, so to speak.   Certain products will always be more quality-sensitive in the marketplace than others, and since American workers have costly medical insurance and costly education expenses for their families, it makes more sense for the higher value-added jobs to be here, the quality designed items, to be made in USA.  
           It doesn’t make sense to me that because there are more Americans than Germans we should aim to market quantity over quality.  I believe there are many more Germans per square mile than Americans per square mile, and if we could sell a quality toaster (or solar appliance) to every Chinese family, that would be good.  They might select it over a “quantity”-designed product (from whatever source) that the internet tells everyone will fail in a few years.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          The aim of shipping manufacturing to China is the labor cost. Quantity is very important nowadays not quality. Quantity makes the economy running with a lower cost but if we plan to make high quality products but hire less people in order to survive it will never work. It willl take me 3 pages to explain everything.

          • Ellen Dibble

            I challenge you, and it will take me six pages to explain.  :>)

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            Not today dear. Mod is back got to run. lol joke

      • Mrlongleg1962

        Many Americans I know love high quality products. America is the biggest export market for Germany. If more American companies would focus on high quality, this could help to lower the trade imbalance too. Of course I am aware that there are many people out there that cannot afford high quality, but that is another story…

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          I believe all people love high quality products but the good thing about low quality products that we can replace them right away without thinking of the cost of the replacement.

          • MrLongleg

            We both know that this is more expensive on the medium to long term, not only moneywise, but also environmentally. Think about the  load on landfills with cheap crap products (mostly from China).

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            yes you right but we cannot stop the Chinese from making thousands of Walmart products that are cheaply available to the middle class. Remember majority of American consumer will choose cheaper products that fits their budget. It is the consumer behavior that we have to watch out for not the quality of the product.

          • Ellen Dibble

            Staples made the colossal mistake a few years back of selling me a mouse that is indestructible.  I drop it a few times a day, and it keeps on working.  Before that, I had actually more expensive mice (but apparently lower quality), and every time I dropped one, Kaput!  Just the cost and time of ordering and postage/gas for the replacement was more than the difference in longevity cost.   I worship this mouse.  Many things are like that; you can be seduced into getting the “floozy” model, the glittery “reduced-for-you-now special,” and you end up replacing it with something a little better next year when something even sparklier shows up, without the particular drawbacks of the one you bought.  It’s like the fashion industry; never satisfy them totally; keep them coming back for more.  It’s a marketer’s paradise, your idea of quality being a luxury.  Quality is thrift in many, many instances.

          • MrLongleg

            That was not a mistake, you’ll come back to buy other products there, won’t you ;-)

          • Ellen Dibble

            Exactly.  

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            she will it is the consumer behavior and beside Staples ALWAYS have sales.

          • Modavations

            I buy Bally shoes.They last 20 years and cost 250.00.I could buy cheap shoes for $75.00 and go through a pair in two years.They look cheap and feel cheap.The leather in a pair of Ballys,melts in your hand.The comfort is profound

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            Bally’s shoes?!!! o dear you so old school. My father wear those. try Bruno-Mali next time

          • Modavations

            I’m 60.I only wear them when I have to put on a suit.I used to be a Floor man in the casinos in Las Vegas and Tahoe and suits were de rigeur.I haven’t been in a suit for 20 years,so all my shoes are covered in dust.My point was, give me quality.The stuff lasts forever

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            You can wear your suit with jeans with Bali shoes and I think women will love that Yuppy look on you.

          • Modavations

            Never.thThey may open casinos in Boston,so maybe I’ll work weekends.Do you play craps

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            I sm sure you drive a Bentley, right?

        • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

          American CEOs primary focus is on their compensentation packages and a mega bonus each year. And of course, funding their lobbyists to PAY OFF THE CONGRESS.

          I ask:  Who is the lobbyist who represents the MIDDLE CLASS?  Nobody.

          • Modavations

            You vote don’t you?

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Never misssed an election. My guess it that you don’t think.

        • Modavations

          We produce 25% of everything on the planet

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Quality products don’t always have the highest selling price!

      • Modavations

        I always pay extra for quality.That’s why I buy Japanese cars.You couldn’t pay me to buy American.What up Fax!!!

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          I am good mister mod. I used to buy Japanese cars Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda and Nissan (never tried Subaru) but I noticed it is expensive to fix and the cost of parts are expensive compared to American cars.

          • Modavations

            I’ve always owned Hondas(Acuras)and they never break down

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            I was talking about wear and tear. of course you will replace oxygen sensor,fuel filter,light bulbs etc eventually. I drive a Ford now and I feel more AMERICAN than ever before.

          • Modavations

            right on,though I’m surprised.I was thinking you’d spin over here and take me for a drive in a kick-ass sports car.You got the 8 yr. old though,so your sports car days are probably in hiatus

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      Sadly, US politicians are too corrupt and US executives too greedy for anything as sensible as Germany has done, to happen in the US.

      • MrLongleg

        I would not be that negative. There are corrupt crooks everywhere, also in Germany. There are more and more people and also politicians understanding the problem and “America will always do the right thing, after it has exhausted all other possibilities” (Winston Churchill)

        • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

          I am a realist, sorry. What Churchill said was true of the America of his times. No longer….that generation has passed. The greatest generation gave way to the greediest generation (boomers), who is now giving way to the dumbest generation.

          • Ellen Dibble

            I don’t know  how old you are, but I blame television advertising.  Television was just beginning to come to most homes after World War II, and people would obediently watch as ever bigger and flashier cars were being promoted, and lifestyles that included not only  better soaps (radio soap operas were named for the soap they promoted) but better products of all sorts.  Television tried to make greedy consumers of the generations that partook, and the partaking was unilateral.  People didn’t immediately log on and complain about the products, compete with each other for the best critique.  I mean, I think the greed and stupidity might give way in light of new media (to something I can’t see).  It’s harder to judge the present than the past.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Indeed, hindsight is always 20/20. I do agree with you on advertising…which is nothing more than corporate propaganda (which we pay for in the cost of products)…beamed into the heads of everyone from childhoold on. All designed to create a nation of MINDLESS consumers, who question nothing. It has been an astounding success from that perspective.

          • MrLongleg

            The fact that we have that discussion proves to me that there are thinking beings out there ! Not all hope is lost !!

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Note that I did not say we have NONE. Just not enough.

      • Modavations

        hang em

        • MrLongleg

          easier alternative: don’t vote for them ! We are living in a democracy after all. If voters would focus on real politics instead of gay issues or abortion issues the crooks would have no chance.

          • Modavations

            Son,I only care about money matters.I’ll vote for a Martian if he’s laissez Faire.Am ambivalent on all social issues

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Moda channelling violence, once again?

          • Modavations

            I’m looking for a good Pedophile site.Glad you popped up.Which one do you use

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

    China is at war with the US. Anyone who does not see this is blind.

    • Poyinc

      America is at war with everyone

  • Brandstadisbad

    The US drone that crash landed in Iran was hacked by the China!

    • Modavations

      Dude we’re smarter then that.We crash stuff intentionally all the time.We fill it with Trojan Horses.It’s a Machiavellian world and were the chief Machiavellians

  • Tom

    National Socialist theologian Gregor Strasser once stated the following….

    “We National Socialists are enemies, deadly enemies, of the present capitalist system with its exploitation of the economically weak … and we are resolved under all circumstances to destroy this system. ”
    And  a lot of Barack Obama’s strongest supporters aresocialists and communists, and an increasing number of Americans are showing disdain for capitalism. In fact, some recent polls show that young adults in America actually have a more favorable view of socialism than they do of capitalism.

    • Modavations

      70 members of the House belong to the American Socialist Party(mainly the Black Caucus)

      • MrLongleg

        That is pure racism and not based on any facts…

        • Modavations

          I stand by my claim

          • MrLongleg

            what about proving it!

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Do not expect more than bluster from Modivations…

          • Modavations

            Chirps from the Peanut Gallery.Go hang someone

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Let’s start with you!

          • nj

            Aww, ain’t that cute? Moda-troll, who is only here because he needs the attention, playing all coy.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Another call for violence from Moda?

          • Modavations

            Couldn’t care less.I don’t do others homework

          • nj

            That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

          • nj

            You can stand anywhere you want. You’re still a fool.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      Prove you claims.

    • TomK in Boston

      Give me a break. There are countless versions of capitalism. We were capitalists when we were opposing the Communists in the cold war, the top tax rate was over 90%, CEOs made 40x a workers salary instead of 1000x, unions were strong, and the financial sector was strongly regulated. Now we’re capitalists who let the corporations do whatever they want and steer all the wealth to the top with tax cuts, and people like you howl “Socialism” at any mention of a baby step back to the version of capitalism we had when the middle class was getting stronger every year. If you want to play fascist quotes, try this one:

      “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” — Benito Mussolini

      Mussolini would approve of your precious deregulation and sucking up to the corporations.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        Excellent quote

      • nj

        I still like the quote, but, apparently, there’s some dispute that B.M. ever uttered those particular words.

        • TomK in Boston

          True, but he has plenty of others that say the same thing.

      • Modavations

        Mussolini was the editor of avanti,The Socialist paper in Trento.Socialism,Communism,Fascism.Same stuff,just differences in lethality

    • MrLongleg

      Comparing Obama’s supporters with Nazi’s is outright ridiculous. Dude, you don’t know what you are talking about. Helping consumers and middle class people to survive has nothing to with socialism – I call it common sense. I think most people agree that it is about time to shift back the power away from plutocrats and global conglomerates back to hard working middle class people like you and me.

      • TomK in Boston

        We took the top tax rate down from over 90% to 35% and put in a special deal for the Romneys so they can pay 15% and less estate tax. That’s where we are now and surprise, all the wealth has migrated to the top. It is moronic to suggest that a small step back from a disastrous experiment with this extremely un-American version of capitalism is “socialism”. 

        • MrLongleg

          Could not agree more ;-)

      • Pantilt

        Finally a reasonable opinion :)

    • nj

      If only Obama were more socialist. Turn off Fox So-called News and expand your reading materials.

      It’s not capitalism that’s the problem, it’s unregulated capitalism played with rules that affect the privileged.

      If you don’t like “socialism,” then i’ll take you Social Security funds.

      And don’t use the publicly funded schools. Or drive on public roads. Or use the library. Better drill you own well, too. Stay out of local, state, and national parks. And national forests. Disregard any warnings from the National Weather Service. Can’t trust those socialists. You’ll have a lot more vehicles to choose from once we do away with national vehicle safety standards. And i bet you’ll be happy to pay lower air fares once we get rid of all those pesky National Transportation Safety Board investigations.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    A good example of this Quality versus Quantity arguement is to watch the documentary film “Revenge of the Electric Car”
    The CEO of Nissan will explain everything why quantity is better but it is Nissan so quality is also better. just watch it pls?

  • Phil

    Why can’t companies put Trojan horses in their programs so that when the Chinese steal the files, we can do in their systems .

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      I have wondered that too. Can our trllion dollar a year NSA be that stupid? My guess is Yes.

    • TomK in Boston

      Who says they don’t?

      It’s a whole new area, cyberwar, but believe me, it’s happening. Stuxnet, targeting the control systems of the iranian centrifuges, should be a signpost.

      BTW some asian gvts use linux instead of microsoft (not that you should need another reason!) because they don’t trust how msft might be working with the CIA etc.

  • Akfaka

    Oh, man, those Chinese are a bunch of no good thieves. But yet the US and the Europeans look to China for a bail out when they desperate for money. What do you call that in llegal terms when you receive money from thieves ?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      The founder of Facebook is also a thief. Facebook wasn’t even his idea but he made it BETTER.

  • Still Here

    If we could only go back to an agrarian economy…

  • Pauline

    Americans think that they are the only people in the world that can come up with good ideas.

    • Ard

      but they know for sure how to utilize a good idea! 
      btw, did you use window or mac to post your comment?

      • Poyinc

        Yes, it’s true but we are not the only ones.  PC.

      • Bob

         was it a windows or mac that was so easily hacked?

  • Anonymous

    RE : Chinese Hackers ( Computer Hacking )
    Dear Mr. Ashbrook,
     International Espionage, has gone on for Years.
    But now, in the ‘ Computer Connected Age ‘. the Dangers are significant. ( Revisit ‘ Stuxnet ‘, etc. )
    One of your Guests , stated , “…..with friends like these, who needs Enemies ….”.
    No amount of , ‘ Rules, Regulations, Laws ‘ ; Threats, Drones, ‘ Carpet Bombing ‘, etc., is going to make this ‘ Cyber Warfare ‘, go away.
     The only Actions that will help,  are , Integrity, Honesty, Justice, Fairness &  Respect  .
     At present, we are pointing the Finger at China.
     BUT, Israel has been Spying against the USA, for years and Israel is ‘ Supposed to be a Friend ‘.  Israel, has even Spied against the  US Military & Defense Dept. So ! Why have we NOT, taken Israel to task. The Answer is, that , ‘ The Israeli Lobby ‘ will not allow it.
     So the ONLY way to safeguard against Cyber Warfare, is to have, Mutual Integrity & Honesty.
     Pray ! May God bless, the World.

  • Tlt987

    Amazingly enough the predictions in the book 1984 is coming true. Cameras in everything? Prayer changes things!

  • Chino Gitano

    Another war-mongering propaganda piece from Washington DC.  If China is really so vile, sue their pants off in WTO or just declare war.  Bitching behind closed doors are for sissies.

    By the way, did the production team bother to look up history and see what the Brits and Germans say about American businesses 100 years ago?

    • Anonymous

      “Economic and industrial espionage has a long history. The work of Father Francois Xavier d’Entrecolles in Jingdezhen, China to reveal to Europe the manufacturing methods of Chinese porcelain in 1712 is sometimes considered an early case of industrial espionage.[26]
      Historical accounts have been written of industrial espionage between Britain and France.[27] Attributed to Britain’s emergence as an ‘industrial creditor,’ the second decade of the 18th century saw the emergence of a large-scale state-sponsored effort to surreptitiously take British industrial technology to France.[27] Witnesses confirmed both the inveigling of tradespersons abroad and the placing of apprentices in England.[28] Protests by those such as iron workers in Sheffield and steel workers in Newcastle,[clarification needed] about skilled industrial workers being enticed abroad, led to the first English legislation aimed at preventing this method of economic and industrial espionage.[29][28]”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_espionage#Origins_of_industrial_espionage

      “Samuel Slater (1768–1835) is the founder of the Slater Mill. As a boy apprentice in Derbyshire, England, he learned of the new techniques in the textile industry and defied laws against the emigration of skilled workers by leaving for New York in 1789, hoping to make money with his knowledge…
      While on a trip to England in 1810, Newburyport merchant Francis Cabot Lowell was allowed to tour the British textile factories, but not take notes. Realising the War of 1812 had ruined his import business but that a market for domestic finished cloth was emerging in America, he memorised the design of textile machines, and on his return to the United States, he set up the Boston Manufacturing Company.”  

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#United_States

      Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to protect ourselves against it.

  • texasdoon

    Tom, why did you continuously say “alleged” – are you kidding me?  There IS proof- it’s just taboo to talk about it– because if the military talks about it we appear weak.  If commercial firms talk about it stock prices drop or lawsuits ensue.  Hacked R&D is both industry and the military’s dirty ‘big’ secret. How do you think the Chinese got stealth technology?  It took minutes to steal years of sweat equity and billions of dollars of investment and American ingenuity.  If American firms willingly confessed to all cyber theft incidents it would stun the American public– and those would just be the incidents they know about.  That sucking noise you hear is not a Hoover, Oreck, or Dyson vacuum– it’s the Chinese (and other nations) stealing American innovation as I type this sentence.  And it sickens me to hear that a Chinese firm is suing Apple for ‘stealing’ the i-Pad name, while they illegally mass-produce pirated software, DVDs, CDs, and anything else digitally available.  America needs to wake up and shut down this economic warfare directed at the United States.  Lastly, your guest made a critical point:  we gave away manufacturing to the emerging 3rd world- we cannot afford to give away our remaining crown jewel: innovation and the blue prints to duplicate it.  R&D hacking by foreign nations is not alleged- it is as pervasive as oxygen and just as difficult to see.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Repeatedly trying to keep it from being revealed?   Which causes MORE vulnerability?  Expecting different results?  How much are the CEOs and executives paid, to fulfill one definition of insanity?

  • Che_G.IV

    Those who rule over China have the lessons of over 5,000 years. From gunpowder to binary code.

  • DredWisely

    In the 1980′s and 90′s America was sold on an idea that we should trade historically good middle class manufacturing jobs for a copyright and service based economy. When the American economy was developing we pirated other countries intellectual property and improved upon it. It seems hypocritical to complain of other any developing country doing the same.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      This was done by CEOs, that got $MILLIONS, for destroying their companies, and selling out?

  • Anonymous

    “We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.”

    ~ Neville Chamberlain

  • Anonymous

    “China has become a major financial and trade power. But it doesn’t act like other big economies. Instead, it follows a mercantilist policy, keeping its trade surplus artificially high. And in today’s depressed world, that policy is, to put it bluntly, predatory.”

    ~ Paul Krugman

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/01/opinion/01krugman.html

  • Anonymous

    “Creativity and investment should be recognised and rewarded. The purpose of intellectual property law (such as copyright and patents) should be, now as it was in the past, to ensure both the sharing of knowledge and the rewarding of innovation.The expansion in the law’s breadth, scope and term over the last 30 years has resulted in an intellectual property regime which is radically out of line with modern technological, economic and social trends. This disconnect threatens the chain of creativity and innovation on which we and future generations depend.”

    http://www.thersa.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/54834/adephi-promoting-innovation-and-rewarding-creativity-january-2007.pdf

    While laws like ACTA, PIPA and SOPA may go too far, the kind of outright theft described in this broadcast constitutes a equally serious threat. 

    Interesting discussion of the objectives and rationale regarding the protection intellectual property here: 

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

  • Anonymous

    Regretfully, I didn’t get to hear the whole show, but it would seem to me that removing batteries etc. from cell phones and laptops may be closing the door after the horse is out. After all, those items are manufactured in china and for all we know their engineers have designed back doors into chips that could provide access anytime when they are back in this country. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      GREAT POINT!

  • Kivenaberham

    history of stealing intellectual property, its all about who get what how much and what they can do with it. realistically speaking, if united states have not learn from the intellectual property stolen by the Japanese or south Koreans or the European countries to build their industry after world war two. we will never learn from china nor the on coming countries like India. by the way have knowledge of intellectual property means nothing if you don’t know what to do with it. or how to take it to the next level. it is the understanding of the big picture that we have that make united states special. look at Kodak. why don’t the Chinese steal their technology BECAUSE ITS USELESS! the Japanese took digital film making and made it their own, a lack of vision by the board of Kodak destroy their company. not cheap knock offs from china.

  • Kivenaberham

    i just realize something.. the reality is china can never have intellectual property rights… the european union, united states, japan and south Korea will never allow it. it does not matter what they do.. the is a price to pay to sit on the united nation council that dictate foreign policies. example Syria and Russia’s veto. if japan was to sit on the board you will have no problem going in to war but China is vetoing just like Russia. war profiteering? no just that it is a way to contain Russia and China.

  • Michael Morin

    What really stunned me is that China, or hackers in China, has/have the ability to hack a climate control system in order to use it like a wifi access point to snoop on corporate/personal communications that are otherwise secure.  If they can hack a climate control system, what else can they do?  Missiles, nuclear reactor cooling systems, the electricity grid, Navigation systems…

    • Terry Tree Tree

      NOW you’re getting the idea!

  • John Palkovic

    Unpatched, unprotected windows systems make a big, fat penetration vector for hackers. Why no discussion of basic security in this article? Why no discussion of encryption? They make it sound like the corporate network front door is wide open to the chinese hackers. What nonsense. If my laptop has whole-disk encryption turned on, and it is powered off and in the trunk of my car in America, can a Chinese hacker penetrate it? If the CEO has encrypted the sales contract with a good cipher and a strong passphrase, is it vulnerable to theft? Are the backing stores on hardened servers? Deploy honeypots and tarpits on old PCs running linux. External access is only allowed via VPN or SSH with a whitelist.

    Strong, open-source encryption is freely available. Or pay for an off-the-shelf solution. Hire an IT person with a clue about network security. If you’re storing your sensitive info in the clear on a windows box on your corporate network, you are stupid. This is war, arm yourselves.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FDAMZDSYFW2WZ3SWC2WZKUKL5M Andrew Page

      Most security issues can be traced to the IDW principle(I Don’t Wanna).   I don’t wanna change my password regularly, I don’t wanna upgrade my software, I don’t wanna update my router, I don’t wanna learn how.

  • Slipstream

    I say the government should get involved & begin doing to others as they are doing to us.

  • YoungGun

    I was in China for a bit this past summer working short-term for the US gov. My anti-virus had been uninstalled within 2 days and from then on my computer has been using around at about 50% as the rest of the hard drive is chugging as they follow my online activity. It sucks a lot, but I don’t care that much. What they are going to do with hours of searching reddit and checking out girls facebook pages? Those aren’t exactly state secrets.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Jul 28, 2014
This June 4, 2014 photo shows a Walgreens retail store in Boston. Walgreen Co. _ which bills itself as “America’s premier pharmacy” _ is among many companies considering combining operations with foreign businesses to trim their tax bills. (AP)

American companies bailing out on America. They call it inversion. Is it desertion?

Jul 28, 2014
U.S. Secretary of War Newton D. Baker watches as wounded American soldiers arrive at an American hospital near the front during World War I. (AP Photo)

Marking the one hundredth anniversary of the start of World War One. We’ll look at lessons learned and our uneasy peace right now.

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