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In School Until Age 18

Raising America’s high school drop out age to 18. No exceptions. Is this the magic bullet to help kids from slipping through the cracks?

Casillas, 17, of East Chicago, Ind., works on some class work during her Language Arts class at Camp Atterbury in Edinburgh, Ind., on Friday, Aug.10, 2007. This program puts kids, primarily high school drop outs from the ages of 16-18, through a five-month residential program with a military feel to help build their leadership skills, confidence and commitment to graduating from high school. (AP)

Casillas, 17, of East Chicago, Ind., works on some class work during her Language Arts class at Camp Atterbury in Edinburgh, Ind., on Friday, Aug.10, 2007. This program puts kids, primarily high school drop outs from the ages of 16-18, through a five-month residential program with a military feel to help build their leadership skills, confidence and commitment to graduating from high school. (AP)

In 1970, the United States had the world’s highest high school graduation rate.  Today, we’re number 21.  That is not a good ranking when jobs in today’s economy more than ever require a solid base in education.

Today, three out of ten American high school freshmen will not get a high school diploma.  That drop-out rate is too high.  Last week, President Obama called for all states to require students to stay in high school until they get a diploma or they are 18.  No more sixteen and out.  Is that the answer?

This hour, On Point:  Raising America’s high school drop-out age to eighteen.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Cecilia Rouse, Professor in the Economics of Education at Princeton University. From 2009-2011 served as a member of the President’s Council of Economic Advisers. Her op-ed in the New York Times last week was “The True Cost of High School Dropouts.”

Byron Young,  a musician, manager at a retail store and administrator at a government contractor. He dropped out of Northwestern High School in Hyattsville, MD at age 16.

Peggy Korellis, principal, Team Englewood, a Chicago Public High School started 5 years ago with 450 students.

Highlights

“If someone is 16 years old, they should have the freedom to choose whether they want to go to school or whether they want to start working,” said caller Gordon from Bowling Green, Kentucky. “Maybe they want to live a simple life.”

And yet the state has a clear interest in keeping students in school: Those who stay in school are less likely to become teen parents, commit crimes, or draw on welfare and more likely to participate in civic life – in addition to making much more money over their lifetimes, said Cecilia Rouse, Professor in the Economics of Education at Princeton University. Education is both an investment for the community and the individual, she said.

Which helps explain why 21 states already have laws on the books that keep kids in school until the age of 18. While not a panacea, lengthening the time that citizens are required to go to school “is a step that can certainly move the needle,” Rouse said.

State laws can be effective by targeting the parents of students at risk of dropping out, a powerful tool to keep kids going to class.

Other high school dropouts were in favor of changing the laws to keep kids in school until age 18. “The fact that I made an immature decision when I was 17 years old is still affecting me,” said caller Jenna from Trumansburg, New York. She’s now 23 and regretting dropping out. “In the end, I should have stuck it out,” she said.

Education experts note that simply changing the law isn’t enough to matter for students dealing with gangs, drugs, family problems, and a host of other issues. “Usually the kids who drop out have lives that are in such disarray that they just can’t come to school anymore,” said Peggy Korellis, a principal at Team Englewood, a Chicago Public High.

Caller Desirre from Amherst, Mass., a high school dropout, said that she opposed the new law because it doesn’t make sense to compel people to do things they don’t want to do. She said that “You don’t have any options, you don’t want to go [to school],” she said. She said that she dropped out both because of family problems and bullying from classmates.

Now, she’s now finishing her bachelor’s degree from University of Massachusetts-Amherst.

From Tom’s Reading List

The New York Times “While state legislative efforts to raise the dropout age to 18 have spread in recent years, many have had trouble winning passage. Last year, for example, such legislation was considered in Alaska, Illinois, Kentucky, Maryland and Rhode Island — but only Rhode Island actually changed its law.”

L.A. Times “Could keeping kids from dropping out be as simple as telling them they have to stay in school? President Obama implied that in his State of the Union address Tuesday, calling on all states to require students to stay in high school until they either graduate or turn 18.”

National Center for Education StatisticsThe status dropout rate represents the percentage of 16- through 24-year-olds who are not enrolled in school and have not earned a high school credential (either a diploma or an equivalency credential such as a General Educational Development [GED] certificate).”

“If someone is 16 years old, they should have the freedom to choose whether they want to go to school or whether they want to start working,” said caller Gordon from Bowling Green, Kentucky. “Maybe they want to live a simple life.”

 

And yet the state has a clear interest in keeping students in school: Those who stay in school are less likely to become teen parents, commit crimes, or draw on welfare and more likely to participate in civic life – in addition to making much more money over their lifetimes, said Cecilia Rouse, Professor in the Economics of Education at Princeton University. Education is both an investment for the community and the individual, she said.

 

Which helps explain why 21 states already have laws on the books that keep kids in school until the age of 18.  While not a panacea, lengthening the time that citizens are required to go to school “is a step that can certainly move the needle,” Rouse said.

 

State laws can be effective by targeting the parents of students at risk of dropping out, a powerful tool to keep kids going to class.

 

Other high school dropouts were in favor of changing the laws to keep kids in school until age 18. “The fact that I made an immature decision when I was 17 years old is still affecting me,” said caller Jenna from Trumansburg, New York. She’s now 23 and regretting dropping out. “In the end, I should have stuck it out,” she said.  

 

Education experts note that simply changing the law isn’t enough to matter for students dealing with gangs, drugs, family problems, and a host of other issues. “Usually the kids who drop out have lives that are in such disarray that they just can’t come to school anymore,” said Peggy Korellis, a principal at Team Englewood, a Chicago Public High.

 

Caller Desirre from Amherst, Mass., a high school dropout, said that she opposed the new law because it doesn’t make sense to compel people to do things they don’t want to do. She said that “You don’t have any options, you don’t want to go [to school],” she said. She said that she dropped out both because of family problems and bullying from classmates.

 

Now, she’s now finishing her bachelor’s degree from University of Massachusetts-Amherst.

 

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • Betty Palmer

    Hello Tom,
      I think it is appalling that students do not earn a High School Diploma or a General Equivalency Degree.  I think our education system would be far more successful if children had support at all levels; First Steps, Head Start, DSHS and every day through school and after school.  Perhaps it is simplistic but i still believe it is largely a matter of our priorities; home, school boards, school staff, community, State and Country.
      Please be sure your listeners know about Job Corps as a terrific alternative for kids.  And about the National Guard Youth Challenge Program which is available in several States.  
      For more information about schools of note in Washington watch the video: http://www.washingtonea.org/content/video/11/innovate/frame/html
      On Point is one of my all time, favourite programs.  I greatly appreciate your competence, knowledge and talent and am fortunate to hear you on Northwest Public Radio.
       Thank you, 
      Betty Palmer
      Cashmere, Washington
      

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Sixteen, eighteen, or thirty-eight–it doesn’t matter.  Until we have a culture in which all people value education, none of this will make any difference.

    • Hidan

      and not having you as a teacher I assume would do wonders if you teach like you comment.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        You mean that since I make you think, I tire your brain?

        • Hidan

          Your the last one to make anyone think. As you previous stated along the lines that children/teens should appreciate the value of education in learning. An actually good teacher would realize such values can be instilled by good teaching. Your premise is already self-defeating for both you and the people you teach and promotes failure and defeat

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s all the responsibility of the teacher.  Sure.  Do you see anything that the student is supposed to do?

    • Cory on the Oder

      You said it all Greg.  Disrespect for teachers, schools, and government entities in general pervade our country.  We might as well close the comment section now. 

    • Steve

      I would like to suggest that we need to go far beyond a culture in which all people value education.

      We need to create a culture where all people have value.

    • mary elizabeth

      Agreed .  But do we need a system where one size fits all?  Alternatives to the traditional high school need to be considered which may include mastery of basic  3R’s, but do not require  advanced composition, etc.

  • Cory on the Oder

    Wait for it…  wait for it…

    The conservative, states rights crowd should begin howling about big government and mandates any moment… 

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    Worthy goal but you can’t legislate good parenting.

    What’s next, no dropouts until after college?

    Then we’d have no Dell, Apple, Microsoft or Facebook.

    • Hidan

      Seems those companies have no problem with slave labor(FoxConn) with the except of facebook but than again Mark Z had to pay out 65 million to the Winklevoss twins.

      Stealing,cheating and exploitation is supposedly something students are taught not to do. Yet all four companies have done one or the other. Microsoft did all.

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Sure each of these companies (maybe with the exception of Dell) have a been virtual monopolies in their respective markets and have at times behaved like a  bully.  However, the bigger picture is the success of each of these companies have added tremendous value to society.  Each of these companies started from the humble beginnings of a dorm room or a garage.

        You appear to be a glass half empty kind of guy.

        • Hidan

           Again each company cheated in some way to be succesful and to get that tremendous value you speak up. In otherwords they bent or broke the rules we all are supposed to play by. Again something we tell students not to do.

          “Cheaters never win” well actually they do and along as they add tremendous value it seems after the fact.

      • Charles A. Bowsher

        Amen!
        As for Mark (Gollum) Zuckerberg, first he ripped off the twins, now Facebook and Zuckerberg are ripping off the Facebook community with this upcoming stock offering. Wakeup Facebook Community!  Without you he is nothing. He sold you all out to the Wall Street FAT Cats when he got his most recent round of financing from his newest “friends”. 
        You are the 99%, yet you are opening your lives and loves to a creepy little sneak, the Gollum of the internet.  The community should demand at least a 25% share of the overall action or migrate to the Google circle thing or something else that is actually “shared” with all.  NO it is not Sociallism, it is called fairness.

        • Modavations

          No it is most definetly socialism-communism.Let the markets work their magic

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Sucessful dropouts are the exception, NOT the rule?
         I doubt that 0.01% of dropouts could be considered sucessful.
         Like anything else, the exceptions get press, and the rest get ignored, unless they are a problem??

    • Orpah

      The government needs to stop trying to replace parents simply because many parents are not doing their job. 

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Government will have to replace parents that aren’t doing their job, either withing, or discipline of prisons and jails.

        • Modavations

          Stop bowing and groveling at the alter of the State.Govt. isn’t the solution it’s the problem

  • Hidan

    It’s the criminalization of the school and educational system that is a major problem. Zero tolerance has backed fired. Than the cutting out of creativity and free time. Than we have the children that are with before and after care programs are at school from 7am to 5-6pm at night Monday-friday. Than the cost of charging to play sports, the gutting of science, teaching to the test.

  • Hidan

    People complain about children/teens not respecting teachers and why should they when they see our politicians  get rewarded for saying the most outlandish things.  Teachers were once claimed to be the ones that encourage students to excel and value education now we have jack holes  who blame the students for being a poor teacher.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Have you been a teacher?  A substitute teacher?

      • Hidan

        nope,

        but I have worked with teachers, before/after school care, DSS, team building from 4yrs- to people making 6 figures. I worked with Teens from group homes, I taught others to deal with teens and children with anger problems,disrupt behavior. I set up children care programs for children and there parents who could not afford to pay and worked with hundreds if not thousands of children when I did this. 

        Start with correcting the Zero tolerance in schools that have the looks of the tough on crime prison system look

        Than next address the lack of freedom awarded to the teen or children to seek things they may like or cause them to want to stay in school. Than focus on training teachers in anger management and conflict resolution. It’s surprising that teachers coming out with B.A. or Master don’t get training on this.

        Than throw out that crap about cuddling children and being there best friend, children esp teens can tell when an teacher is disingenuous.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Thanks for doing these things to help students!
             I forsaw problems with Zero Tolerance when it was announced.

  • Anonymous

    a student might not complete his or her education, but the very fact that he or she stays in school for a longer period of time, gives that student more oppertunity to learn valuable lessons that would have otherwise be a missed oppertunity. perhaps one of those extra days taught him or her a valuable lesson on how to avoid a bad group of people or learned something that inspired him or her to go back to school there after. so although the student dropped out later than sooner that later was the time that the student needed to obtain that crucial lesson that the student used to better his or her life.

  • Payola73

    The only way to entice some teens to stay in school is to pay them to attend.
    Money talks and poppy cock walks.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      It doesn’t have to be in money, or objects, though!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    Granted I am not a parent yet but I would like to see a little more pressure put on the parents of students who regularly do not attend school or drop out before 18. Education starts in the home and parents of kids with regular absences, failing grades, and disciplinary issues need to not only be brought in the loop but held accountable for their kids. One parent/teacher conference a semester that is usually not even mandatory just does not cut it.

  • Anonymous

    High dropout rates are not just due to the child, but the parenting and society. Sadly, I believe that some kids just do not belong in high school. We do a disservice to the kids who do belong there by trying to force square pegs into round holes; consider the kids who share the classroom with them as collateral damage.

    Most of the systems we have in place are not equipped to handle this and it drags the system down. Tell me, do we invest 90% of our resources on maybe 5% of our kids for whom normal schools cannot work or do we invest in a system that targets and separates them and provides them a meaningful education?

    • mary elizabeth

      Yes. I envision as system that allows drop out from high school, but compels these young to “do something” that enriches them apart from the traditional classroom.
      One young man I know struggled badly with academics, yet could take apart and put together any machine perfectly. He is gainfully self-employed now.
       Others have artistic and creative abilities, but are unable to master  French or Spanish or Shakespeare or  chemistry.   Who know what talents could be aroused once free from the frustrations of  a failing  academic endeavor. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Invest in educating the kids, or invest in jails and prisons? 
         Raising productive members of society is LESS expensive than ignoring them?

  • Anonymous

     Not everyone is college material, nor are they meant to be in high-school until they are 18. The question remains, what and how do we as a nation deal with this complex problem.
    In some ways a system not unlike the one Germany has might be a good idea. More vocational training for trades such as plumbing, HVAC, electricians, masons, and car mechanics might be a good idea. Mind you we are not Germany.
    The problems we face in this area are complex and in my view there are no easy fixes such as “No child left behind”.
    The demonetization of teachers and the unions by the right, which I’m sure there will be plenty of on today’s show, does not help. The question remains, how do we deal with this problem?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The demonization of teachers and unions will ALSO be a detriment!
         How many ‘experts’ do we have working on this problem?   What is their pay?  For how long?
         This problem SHOULD have been solved in the 60s!

  • SteveV

    I suggest our schools have become just another reality show, complete with all
    the drama so common in our culture today. Like so many things, we talk a good
    game (valuing education) but upon close examination our words ring hollow.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    During the Vietnam era, these problem students were called “draftees”.  Teenage unemployment?

    If the neocon conservative psychopaths continue their PNAC strategy with Syria and Iran, these h.s. dropouts will become an economic bonanza for uniform manufacturers, and all the other defense contractors. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Most branches of the Millitary, REQUIRE a diploma, or GED, to enlist.  U.S. Marine Corps has maybe 2 non-grad slots per district, which is quite large.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        The requirements are typically dropped during a draft.

        • Greyman

          –and the likelihood of a draft being reintroduced to the US is?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            The US army maintains a huge training force, mainly reservists, to accommodate a swift national draft.

            Don’t kid yourself. All it takes is another Pearl Harbor…orrchestrated or real.

          • Greyman

            Deploying reservists (who have enlisted for service) is not exactly commensurate with a “draft”, which is the forced induction of civilians into military service. Two distinct concepts which are best left separate.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            No Greyman.  You misunderstood me.  

            There is a LARGE reserve component of the US Army that is specifically trained to receive and process millions of inductees during a national draft. Ready to act at any time.  Get it???

          • Greyman

            Got it. But the US has been without a draft since March 1975 and I pity the poor President who thinks to attempt to reinstate it.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ‘W’ compared 9/11 to Pearl Harbor!  We still didn’t draft?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Two wars, with All Volunteer forces, is an indication that the draft isn’t likely to come back?
             The problem of dropouts is bigger than a draft would solve?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            Hey Tree,  How many millions were drafted during WWII,  Korea,  Vietnam??   Never say never.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Did I say never?  I just pointed out the reality of today! 
               I talked to Marine recruiters, for information for a teen that wanted to drop out and be a Marine.  They didn’t want him, and said they didn’t have to take recruits with out HS diplomas!

  • Cory on the Oder

    In a service based economy, there is definitely room for high school dropouts.

    One possibility is for more high schools that focus on vocational education.  The Germans actually do a nice job at this. 

  • Anonymous

    The real question is How can we make parents care about the education of their children? Without parent involvement, nothing works.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Some of them can be encouraged by the best from teachers, guidance counsellors, and staff. 
         MOSTLY it IS the parents, and peers that influence a lack of caring about school!

  • Anonymous

    off topic, for Jack Beatty fans:

    http://www.wbur.org/2012/01/31/white-curley

  • NoDropouts

    Just saying students can’t drop out doesn’t mean they won’t drop out. http://bit.ly/zD8ShO

  • PI Resident

    An 18 year old would be drop can be very disruptive for the rest of the students.  And a physical challenge for both students and teachers.
    Think about it – 18 year old adults in a classroom-and they do not want to be there.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      VERY TRUE!

  • Sam Walworth

    Just wondering why on earth kids who are fortunate enough to have good parents would want to drop out?

    If its a broken family or other dire circumstances due to which a student wants to drop out, just making a law would be the answer or one of the answers to the issues the student is facing?

  • Modavations

    In the Steve Jobs book he says SAT’s deteriorated as soon the Dept.of Education was established.He went on to say that the stronger the Teachers Union became the further the drop in SAT’s.Of course,if the Left has their way there will be no more testing.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Single mothers, with lower-paying jobs?  Absentee ‘fathers’, that are evading most, or ALL the responsibilities of BEING a father?
       Seeing ‘sucessful’ criminals that do nothing constructive for society?
       Parents that pressure, coerce, or threaten teachers to ‘pass’ their children, instead of encouraging the child to learn, and be a decent student?
      A lack of enough teachers to have classes geared to handling and encouraging bad students to be better students?
      As a parent, a former substitute teacher, and an observer, these are some of the many problems that need to be constructively addressed, and answered!

  • Bruce

    Please note that some of those who drop out are highly intelligent and highly bored.

    The entire education system has been on a downhill trend since I was a student in the 50′s. I had to search hard for good education for my children, and then grandchildren.

    While my situation applies to students who are capable and who have concerned parents, the situation for those students without adequate early education and without parent and peer support is even more tragic. Merely keeping kids in school for 2 more years is not the solution. Providing REAL education from early years on up IS! Sadly, this requires the will of a country that de facto does not seem to value education. (e.g. look at the folly of recent cuts in education by several states, look at the entertainment and sports “heroes” of our time as displayed in the media – not exactly known for their intelligence or expertise.)

  • Terry Tree Tree

    The BEST, most workable methods need to be adopted, and the proven bad methods need to be dropped, or modified?

  • Yar

    Last month in a discussion on online high schools I made the comment about gifted kids in school. http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/11/29/online-high-schools#comment-374667885

    We have to meet kids needs where they are, a student who does not want to be in class should not be there at the high school level.
    There is no magic bullet, but it is essential that we care, and put resources in education.  I believe we need two years of public service after high school graduation for all youth.  Raise the drop out age to 18 and if a student wants to leave school they can, but are required to spend more time in public service, not as a punishment, but as job and life training.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Good Option!

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Establishing WHY kids drop out, is a key to establishing solutions?

  • Modavations

    School vouchers are necessary.The schools must compete.Boston is loaded with Charters(the union fought everyone of them and is still litigating to this day).I’m against Charters because the Unions still hold sway.Pres. Obama’s first official act was to terminate the D.C.voucher-scholarship program.Joe Leiberman had a commitee investigate the program and he said it was effective.When Di Finestein heard the president terminated the program she said(I’m paraphrasing)…President Obama,what the fu-k

    • Yar

      Modavations, I like the voucher idea, but instead of giving them to the parent or student, I want to give them to the teacher.  Ever play the card game hearts?  You can greatly improve your hand by passing three cards.  What would happen if each teacher had three vouchers they could send three students to attend the charter school?  Pay the charter school twice the per pupil rate of the public school, and let them prove they can get good results.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Charter Schools claim to be better.  Why pay them more?  Trippling the monies to Public Schools, would result in an improvement of at least 50%?
           Doing better means you can do as well, with less?

        • Modavations

          This young ladies solution is always the state.The state is the problem,not the solution.

        • Yar

          Charter schools do better because people who chose, care more about education.  The same is true for religious and private schools.  If public schools had choice then the shoe would be on the other foot.  I propose to pay the charter twice per pupil to educate anyone the public school rejects.  If I get to divide the pie, I can always win, isn’t that is what charter schools do?  They don’t serve the special needs population to any great degree.  I made the proposal to show how charter schools are currently compared with public school is not valid.  My proposal would raise test scores in public schools.  Isn’t that what we want? 

    • BEEZ

      Boston is not “full” of charters. Most charter schools are good. The problem is there are not enough seats to go around. Why don’t schools start to modify their techniques and ciriculum with regards to alternate schools that have proven to be more effective?
      The real issue is disparity (suprise). All students should have access to a great education- there is no excuse- not just those in wealthy suburban communities, or the “lucky” lottery winners

      • Modavations

        Indiana offered a voucher program and so many fled the public schools that principals were begging peeps to stay.We need vouchers,not charters.Boston is loaded with charters and there’d be way more except that the Teacher ‘s litigate in all, and every circumstance

  • Peter Smyth

    Until we make schools more relevant, simply increasing graduation rates and raising the drop out age to 18 is folly. The narrowed curriculum, driven by test scores, has made school less meaningful for the very students who need enrichment and real world experiences the most. Further, class sizes are already large and students get lost. So dropping out sadly loses the opportunity to have a piece of paper. They do not necessarily lose learning opportunities.

  • Modavations

    It’s going to take 30 years,but we have to restablish the nuclear family.The wellfare system decimated the Black Family(Whites certainly haven’t been unaffected).Instead of marriage penalties we need marriage bonuses.The State makes a terrible Daddy

    • Orpah Jensema

      The State does make a terrible father. But the government will never write legislation to encourage marriage because that would be viewed as legislating morality. You’re right, though, if you build American families, you will build America. The family is the foundation…before the economy, before the government, before the education system.

  • Modavations

    Graduate high school,don’t have kids until you’re 21,marry.This will give you a leg up

    • Terry Tree Tree

      This is good, if dated, generic advice. 
         Many factors interfere with implementation?

  • Greyman

    Compulsory attendance? Why are the virtue and value of “public education” not permitted to be self-evident? –On another hand: notions posted below concerning a two-tiered system of “academic education” and “vocational training” are fine, except that these ideas would inevitably yield formal institution of a two-class system which most Americans (to hear our demagogues and public education apologists) would find repugnant.

  • Akfaka

    Interestingly, yesterday On Point was talking about if the nation is in decline. This is highly educated world, the younger generations around the world are much more educated the a decade ago, the drop-outs, no matter what age they are, they set their path to failure. 

  • AC

    does anyone here actually work in the education field?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Yes.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

        So hit me with some knowledge Mr. Camp. How do we tackle this problem in America? Throw it down and back it up.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

      Good call. I did some ed policy work in college but nothing professional so really all I can articulately comment on are trends and untested policy proposals regarding extended school day and continual education. Guess we’re doomed to another forum discussion heavy on opinion and light on facts..

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Is thirteen years of teaching enough for you?

    • Orpah Jensema

      I taught at a local Iowa public high school for a number of years, and I think one of the complications with raising the age is the prevalence of online credit recovery programs that lower expectations in order for students to graduate. Also, if schools are pressured to retain students who would otherwise drop out, one of the consequences will be a burden on teachers to pass students who do not meet the requirements.

      With that said, I think it’s high time the U.S. raises its expectations for youth. I’m just unsure how it will be enforced and who will enforce it in a time of state budget cuts.  

    • Terry Tree Tree

      I have substitute taught, K-12.

      • Modavations

        I would consider you teaching ,to be child abuse.Don’t burn the school down

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    When a child doesn’t want to be in class?  We’re talking about children here.  They need to listen to adults, rather than whining about how lazy they want to be.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    Just what we need – more classrooms full of students who don’t want to be there. Students drop out long before they actually leave school – there are many students who stay in school (many through graduation), make no effort and generally just degrade the experience for those who are there trying to learn and move ahead.

    Sitting at a desk isn’t learning.

  • Taylor

    If high school was a compelling experience this wouldn’t be a problem.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      It is.  Children are required to be there.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Now, That’s compelling!

  • Anonymous

    What is being done to keep the students who want to be in school from being dragged down by the ones who are compelled to be there?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Oh, but that would require different tracks in school–that’s undemocratic, don’t you know.

      • Anonymous

        Students should be grouped and taught by their ability and achievement.  As long as there is mobility and one’s future isn’t set by poor performance in elementary school.

  • Thehomageofreason

    If the schools are better, children will want to stay–just like anything else.  But until our pubic schools are set as a priority in this country nothing will change.  Fix the problem–not the symptom.  Trade schools work wonders in Europe; there are alot of more effective models around the world…but god forbid we take a page from another country…that would admit our shortcomings.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If kids are dropping out to get jobs and help the family pay the mortgage or whatever, what I want to know is:  What jobs?  It used to be one would drop out to help out on the farm, right?

  • Chris in Pennsylvania

    I can understand the Presiden’ts concern, and I support his effort, but realistically, doesn’t raising the drop-out age to 18 just mean that there will be two years of truancy?  Practically speaking, if the student doesn’t want to be there, they won’t be there.

  • Ablodget

    The endless national debate on school issues continues to completely ignore all the exciting research that is giving us insights into how people learn, insights that suggest that the assumptions on which our schools are based are hopelessly wrong.  Until our schools undergo fundamental changes, we aren’t going to improve learning.  The latest solution: take a 16-year-old who hates school and force her to spend 2 more years doing time.  Brilliant.  For a very brief booklet on the research and the assumptions on which schools are built, go to this link:
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005ZV3RZY

    Alden Blodget, Danby, VT

  • DM

    The sad thing is that the children of well educated parents go on to college and the higher paying jobs while children of less educated parents drop out of school in huge numbers locking them out of mainstream economic and political participation. There is no conspiracy here. If a child has not seen any person graduate from college in their family it is hard for them to imagine themselves graduating. As far as my two daughters are concerned school is non-negotiable, you are my child, you stay in my house, you go to school and then college, then grad school etc. Are they going to do it? I do not know, but that is the expectation I have placed on them and I have three graduate degrees to show them it can be done. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Congratulations to you!  Your daughters DO have an advantage of you showing them that it is IMPORTANT, and CAN be done!
         Many past generations encouraged their children to get more education than the parents.  Mine did.

      • Modavations

        Get your money back.The “J” concept was developed for you.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Somewhere I thought I heard a statistic that those states that currently now DO have minimum age 18 for dropping out have the opposite of the intended effect.  In those states, far more students actually drop out earlier.  Huh?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Good question!   Can we get those statistics?

  • Dee in NYS

    It is ironic that the same president who treats education support as a reality game – Race to the Top – which implies that we’ll have winners and loses in education funding, can wave a magic wand and tell the states to raise the dropout age. This looks like another unfunded mandate from the top.

    • Greyman

      From a President who dutifully sends both his children to private school; of course, in the day, he attended some kind of prep school himself, didn’t he? I mean, before he got to Harvard. (Please, no sob songs about the need for Secret Service monitoring: didn’t Amy Carter attend public school when Mr. Jimmy was President?)

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        I can’t imagine why parents of means wouldn’t send their children to private schools, given what I’ve seen of the public options.

        • Greyman

          However, recall that Montaigne’s father “to make Michel feel close to the common people . . . gave him peasant godparents and sent him out to nurse in a nearby village.” (from the Introduction to Donald Frame’s translation) But this strategy did not even appeal to the Clintons.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            It’s not the class of people that one associates with–it’s the fact that public schools these days give little education.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Any list of the Presidents that have sent their children to public school, while in ANY public office?

  • Stephen Balong

    My daughter was told repeatedly to drop out, one administrator commented that she was bringing down the school’s rating for No Child Left Behind. Early on when she should have been held back or placed in special education, she kept getting pushed to the next grade to get her out of the school faster.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    How we repair our system:

    1.  Spend money.  Cut class sizes to reasonable numbers, and pay teachers a salary that’s equivalent to other equally educated and experienced professionals.

    2.  Tolerate no foolishness.  When a child breaks the rules, that child gets to clean toilets and mop floors, not sit in a room with other delinquents.

    3.  Eliminate multiple choice.  Testing should show the student’s thought, not the student’s ability to fill in bubbles.

    4.  Reward achievement only.  No more talk about self esteem or other such nonsense.  Acknowledge actual learning and performance.

    • Anonymous

      Some multiple choice tests are quite challenging.  The multiple choice section of the bar exam is much harder than the essay questions. 

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        But it’s an artificial difficulty.  An essay shows me how the student thinks, in addition to what the student knows.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

      I can see where you are going with this and I admit it, I agree with the intolerable Mr. Camp so far as the list goes. My next questions would be:

      1. And? I do not believe these four points alone will solve the problem. What about extended school day/year? What about improving parental involvement? Expanded acceptance and teaching of the arts? What about vocational education? I see a comprehensive pre k-12 education and a system that can teach and handle all students as a fundamental necessity for the perpetuation of our democracy.

      2. How do you measure success for this?/What metrics would you use? Drop out rates? Students going onto college? Some form of testing? The only way any of this will pass Congress and gain the funding necessary is if some form of an accontability system is included in the planning.

      3. How do we pay for it? Increase the debt limit? Revamp the tax structure to include more than just property taxes as a source of revenue? The current funding structure cannot support any of the improvements outlined in this forum without at least a few tweaks and/or more debt.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Intolerable, eh?

        1.  Yes, education is essential to democracy.  We accept far too much mediocrity thanks to our insistence that tax rates must favor only the wealthy.

        2.  Teachers can evaluate students’ work.  The push for “standardized” tests shows a lack of faith in teachers.  The problem is that the standardized test only demonstrates the lowest level of knowledge.

        3.  School funding shouldn’t be dependent on property taxes.  Education is necessary to a functioning state and has to be paid for by the whole state.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

          Intolerable in the sense that you are the most prolific socio-economic conservative on this forum and as a general progressive looking to sharpen my views, I must say you are a wonderfully frustrating foil. To find common ground with you is to find it with conservatives in general.

          1. So what else can we add into this?

          2. I do believe teachers can and should to a large extent evaluate the success of their students but some form of standardized test is needed, if only to provide numbers to justify the enormous expenditures required for the education system we dream of/need. Also, how do we test teachers? Not all are created equal as I am sure you have witnessed in your 13 years in the field.

          3. So how do we pay for it without resorting to excessive borrowing on the federal level or a heavily progressive tax structure?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            With regard to spending, it’s a question of priorities.  We demonstrate with our budgets that we don’t value education.

            I’m a conservative, even though I support regulation of large businesses and support universal healthcare?  I’m actually not on the left – right spectrum.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

            What I have read of your blog and your posts point to a commentator that leans conservative but is pragmatic enough to be open to new ideas. Least that is my take. I admitedly have not read every single one of your posts 

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Thanks for reading.  I tend to be Libertarian in small things and Green in large matters.

          • nj

            That’s funny: Trying to “sharpen views” while invoking a term like “general progressive.”

            Oxymoron much?

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

            Would unhoned progressive or journeyman progressive have worked better for you? Do you have anything to contribute to this thread or is it just nitpicking?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    Sitting at a desk isn’t learning.

    Many of these kids are hopelessly behind long before they ever get to high school. Without the proper supports through elementary and middle school forcing them to sit in desk for two more years in high school is not going to help.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      It’s strange, but that’s how we all learned for generations.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

        What I’m saying is you need to be a level that you can understand the work, or it’s pretty pointless. They should be thinking of how to get these kids to come into high school at a high school level. Many come in barely knowing how to read, no math or science skills.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          Social promotion is a bad idea–true.

    • Anonymous

      How are they going to get jobs if they don’t learn how to sit at a desk for hours every day? 

  • Ellen Dibble

    It seems to me that offering accelerated classes for teens who are at risk would assist.  They can know if they take extra classes, harder classes, they can get out and get a job earlier.  This was actually done for me; if high school somehow isn’t synchronized with where you’re going, double down.  Do it quicker.  If that gets you out before 18, fine.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Interesting option!

      • Ellen Dibble

        This would certainly have worked for the caller (who is now in college, heading for a master’s degree) who dropped out of high school lacking One Course.  She said she would have had to attend high school for an entire year to get that one credit.  And somehow she was allowed to walk out without being advised.  Either she had done a lot of AP classes and gotten out ahead (she says she had done really well), or she had flunked that one course, and the school was being awfully stupid.  Doesn’t it cost several thousand dollars to keep a kid in high school for another year?  And all she needs is one course?  That’s what night school is for.  That’s what summer school is for.

  • Frenchyt

    There is new research that schools are suspending students for petty offenses in greater numbers than ever.  A large % of suspended students never return to school.  Schools have to stop this practice and provide alternative placements for disruptive kids, who are usually acting out problems at home.  I represent juveniles in court and the great majority of them dropout because they were suspended.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      I’ve taught some of those students.  The problem that they have is that they refuse to buy into the process and insist on disrupting it for everyone else.  Putting them in another program is a temporary solution, but somehow, we have to get them to believe in education.

  • Anonymous

    Many students drop out because they have undiagnosed or unaccommodated learning disabilities.  Many of these students “learn differently” due to deficiencies in some spheres of learning (for example, auditory processing) while other spheres are either intact or superior.  The modern classroom is one size and one test fits all… and these kids are allowed to fall through the cracks.  In fact, I think many teachers consider these students as inferior and not worth the time and resources necessary to make the difference.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    The chief problem here is that in many cultures in America, education isn’t seen as essential or valuable.  Until parents demand that their children learn, teachers have little that they can do.

  • Anonymous

    Life is about choices.  One way to teach teens about the power of choices is to give them the choice at 16 … stay and do well in the local high school or go into the U.S. Army.  There should be a special division of the Army for high school dropouts to learn the discipline of study and if they do well to teach them a useable skill.  If they rebell in the Army opportunity to learn a skill and get a GED, send them back to repeat basic training.

    • Sisu42

      Interesting idea. Military has long been a safety valve for young men especially, and the new technical needs of the armed forces have closed that off for many kids.

  • Heather Tuck

    I agree that everyone should get a degree.  Vermont has many Technical Schools as an alternative to regular high school which helps students to learn skills that directly link them to the job market and provides them with experience they can take with them.  Many kids need to find the relevancy of their courses and these programs are a good venue for that.   

  • T001

    The only thing you get by forcing students to stay in “school” until 18 is more misbehavior problems that interferes with learning for everyone else. Keeping them in a learning experience until 18 or older is another matter. If you don’t convince them that it is important to continue learning then they are just putting in time and probably causing trouble. It would be better to let them leave traditional school earlier but require them to learn a skill or trade in conjunction with basic academic proficiency. Everyone does not need to go to college and everyone is not college material. There is nothing wrong with vocational-technical education. How much did it cost the last time you called a plumber?

  • Anonymous

    This seems like a cosmetic fix that will do little to address one of the major problems with our education system – the school day is far too short.

    Why are schools not matched with the normal 9-5 schedule that most adults work? It seems letting kids out of school at 2pm gives them many hours of idle time that encourages them to fall off track.

    • Sisu42

      In a functioning family and community, there are many things for children to do after school. They need a pressure-free environment to think, dream, read, and play. Did you forget play? Play IS how children learn. They need physical activity and contact with nature – they are evolved to need this. In reading biographies of lots of great people I have been struck by how they used their time to wonder, try things, and to discover. Children are not just little adults. It is true in the latch-key era that many children are not getting their needs met.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    The Problems with American schools.

    1. You can’t just enroll your kid to a next town if there is a better school.

    2. Always for profit not for the advancement of poor students or all students.

    3. High tuitions fees and school supplies that forced kids to quit school before senior high.

    4. Public school should be free and more competitive with other third world or develop countries.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Um, public school is free.  The only fees are for field trips and so forth.  Public schools aren’t for-profit businesses.  What are you talking about?

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        I was not educated in Public school and not in America. Are you sure about 100% free.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          Yes.

        • DM

          Yes they are free, got a daughter that goes to Public school. 

          • Modavations

            Average expense per kid is 13,000 per annum.Taxes pay the for the schools.They are hardly free.Plenty of private,parochial schools cost 6-9000.00 per annum

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            But the cost of an effective public education is spread out across the whole of the society, rather than paid by one family alone.  I prefer to have an educated population, since I have to sleep sometime, and I like my television set not being stolen.

          • Anonymous

            The tuition charged is far short of the actual cost, even in parochial schools.  Donations by supporters are essential to funding.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The ones with the perverted priests?

  • Newtonpk2002

    NO! NO! Not 18!
    They must stay in school until they get that degree, even it takes their WHOLE LIVES! And if they try to escape, we must have the police track them down and bring them back!  Because school is  GOOD for them!

    My God, what kind of idiocy is this?   As a teacher in NY State private and public schools for nearly 30 years I have watched this decline, reform after reform, year after year. 
    Each reform forced students into classes that the authorities decided they needed. 
    Each reform eliminated classes the kids wanted take (e.g., vocational, technology, music, art, & interesting electives)
     I watched a Computer Assisted Drawing class go from 26 enrolled to 5, because kids had to retakethe state-required Math B test, that they all hated and failed the first (or second, or third) time(s).
    I watched 3/4 of kids signed up for a Band class get bounced for the same reason.

    And I heard, year after year, of the kids forced into these classes tell me “Why do I have to take this!  I’m never going to use it!  I hate school!”

    And I listened to the academically talented and interested kids complain because,
    1.their classes were being filled with, and ruined by, kids, angry and defiant, for being forced to be there, and
     2. courses the academic wanted to take ( AP, electives), were being cut so more lower-perfoming students could be forced into classes they wanted no part of.

    By high school, the emphasis should be on giving kids basic skills, and helping them, if not college bound, to find skills and vocations they will excel at, and hopefully enjoy.  When this happens, students often learn what we want them to in order to master those skills they do enjoy.  Not trying to turn every kid in a Yale applicant.
    Instead, the beatings will continue until morale improves.

    • T001

      exactly! way too much teaching to the test. too much memorization. too much emphasis on “self-esteem’ in middle school vs. really learning basic skills and knowledge. Not enough emphasis on thinking and problem-solving by applying academics to real-world situations. This is the idea of Technology Education (vs. old “shop”).

    • Sisu42

      I competely agree. WHY are we trying to force kids to stay in school against all common sense? It seems like a quick fix, but all it does is keep them out of the limited work force – which I think is the underlying reason. We are infantilizing young people and marginalizing those whose interests and skills are not straight academics, though they may be needed by society (how about no trash collectors or “lunch ladies”?) A recent contractor to our school was overheard to remark.”This place looks like a prison – and I’ve been in a prison.” Look at John Taylor Gatto’s web page and books, including “Weapons of Mass Instruction”. If he is a radical, then so am I.

  • Carol Streiff

    A brief comment on the statistics of drop-outs:  a 10% drop-out rate is usually (in large cities, especially) an ANNUAL rate.  Over a four-year period of high school, a 10% annual rate computes to approximately a 34% drop-out rate.  You can do the arithmetic easily on a freshman class of 100 which, after losing 10% each year, ends up at 66 students or 34% dropping out. 

    I was for 15 years the legal researcher for plaintiffs in the Buffalo NY school desegregation case and this information was accepted by the federal district court judge during the judge’s consideration of remedies for eliminating desegregation. 

    Carol Streiff, Boston 

    • Greyman

      Desegregation was eliminated in Buffalo? That’s news, isn’t it?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        News to me, and a probably disgusting development?

  • Yar

    I live in a rural area, in our school system of around 5000 students we have nearly 200 homeless kids.  They are referred to as couch surfers, mostly because the family unit has broken down.  The foster care system doesn’t serve high school students very well.  Fledgling is a risky time in  development.  We have to invest in all youth, any person we write off or ignore often becomes a life long burden for society.  Youth are what gives our currency value over the long term.  Chew on that idea for a little while.  

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The terrible truth of bad circumstances!

  • Terry Tree Tree

    I hope Desiree can use her Political Science Degree, AND her experience to make things BETTER for future generations of children!

  • Gregg

    It doesn’t help anyone to keep kids who are disruptive and don’t want to learn in school. It’s a detriment. 

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    There are many kids who would test out sucessfully on GED, but they can’t since GED is not available until they turn 18.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Tennessee has 17 years, last I heard, PLUS dropouts CANNOT get a full driver’s license, until 21, if they drop out.

  • Ellen Dibble

    The cases I am thinking of, within the last decade, the kids have to get away from their family of origin.  It’s not that the family is opposed to education.  It’s that the family is dangerous in various ways.  The kids know if I get pregnant, the values of my community will allow me to get permission, even at this age, to get married, and then, with children, there begin to be benefits that will hold body and soul together.  At least I’ll be out of that house.
        To me, the state would have to provide something like a dormitory for teens like that, who really don’t have homes that give them the space and peace to take on board the kind of education we need them to have.

    • Sisu42

      Job Corps. But even there, there are social problems to deal with that many youth don’t have the skills to manage.

      • Modavations

        Plus,you can expect to be raped

  • Steve

      I just watched The Freedom Writers and was extremely moved by the story and concepts behind the foundation.   The mission of the Freedom Writers Foundation is to change the educational system one classroom at a time by providing educators with transformative tools to engage, enlighten and empower at-risk students to reach their full potential. Check out the site- freedomwritersfoundation.org

  • Jp40

    it is not just a good life or a simple life.  People who do not finish high school have a life expectancy that is at least ten (10) years less than everyone else.  This is the single most important thing for health that a person can do to improve their overall health.

    • Modavations

      Nonsense.Mexico has the same life expectancy as the US.

      • DM

        But Jp40 is talking about the reality of the US. Yes you might live long in Mexico but this is the US we are talking about. 

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        yes long life in America but with illness that will last for the rest of your life. Prescription drugs that makes people live longer is disgusting.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          So we should just die, I take it.

        • Ellen Dibble

          The old people will have to hire younger people to do their reproducing for them, their child-rearing for them, while the old ones have the accumulated experience and training to do the work?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    One morning, I had a parent storm into my classroom and scream that I gave her daughter an F on a test.  I ran to the telephone to call the principal so as not to get killed, but if she had given me the time to talk to her, I’d have informed her that her daughter never opened the textbook, cursed at me every day, told me that I was racist for insisting that she learn, and threw the test back at me.  But, of course, it’s my fault that this student got an F.

    Until we can change parents, we can’t repair our public schools.

  • Gorton_beth

    Until all high schools can respond to individual learning needs, family needs, financial needs, social needs, psychological needs,etc. requiring students to stay in school can be cruel and unusual punishment. Having worked in alternative and regular high schools, having had a foster kid who dropped out the minute she turned 18, having watched a lot of students struggle – We can not make our public system meet as many needs as there are out there. Without work study programs, encouragement to go beyond to college courses at younger ages, available childcare, and a wide variety of other diverse programs, we will continue to alienate youth, and forcing them to stay in school is not the answer. Beth Gorton, Weathersfield, vt

    • Terry Tree Tree

      You have some good, well-thought-out challenges to the status-quo! 
         Thanks for taking in the foster child!

  • Modavations

    Slowly end Welfare,reestablish the nuclear family.Afford the poor a school voucher

    • DM

      How do you “reestablish” the nuclear family?

      • Modavations

        Financial enticement

    • Terry Tree Tree

      TRY establishing the nuclear family first!  HOW are you going to do that?  Specific methods, please? 
         HOW do you propose to make someone, usually the male (I can’t call someone that abandons their children a man), to STAY?  If they are abusive?  Would they be abusive, if somehow FORCED to stay?

      • Modavations

        bribes,Firebug,financial inducement

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ‘Conservatives’ keep wanting to cut those budgets!

  • BrianInBoston

    Your panel expert is wrong when she says there are other options for kids who want to drop out.  For some there are no other options, due to geography.  I grew up in a small town and was bullied out of high school.  For me there were no other options. The bullying was so severe that if I hadn’t been able to drop out I would have killed myself to escape the torture.  Any effort to force kids to stay in school must be accompanied by meaningful programs to keep kids safe in school.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      It’s terrible that this happened to you, and to others!

      • Modavations

        I feel your pain,oh I feel your pain.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          My pain?   What are you hallucinating about now?  I mentioned NO pain of mine.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Most states have 18 as age of being considered adult.  Why should that NOT be the age that this adult decision is made?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    I forgot there are more Holidays than school days in American schools.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      When you don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s best not to talk.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        I was to lazy to type to explain everything. So do you want again to talk about Singaporian Math? I gave you a problem before but you never solve it remember it mister school teacher? and don’t tell me when to write on this message board. I know what I am talking about because my 8 yr old daughter is enrolled in Public school in Wellesley, Massachusetts. ok dude!!!!

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          Mathematics isn’t tied to culture, so I don’t know what you mean by Singaporean math.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            culture has nothing to with education.

      • Modavations

        Translation.I don’t like your speech Fax68,so shut up.So many totalitarians on this forum.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          for real i feel like in Marcos regime.

          • Modavations

            I feel more like ClockWork Orange.The nightmare of the do gooder Social Worker

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          I’m just asking him to make sense.

          • Anonymous

             It’s a waste of time with these two.
            They remind me of Beavis and Butthead.

          • Cory on the Oder

            Huh huh, huh huh, you said “waste”!

        • Anonymous

          I guess comprehension was not your strong point as well in school, besides European history.
          You read things into comments that are not there, and when they are you miss them.

    • Anonymous

      You’ve got to be joking.  How many more holidays do they take off in the Philippines? 

  • Ek2000

    Why isn’t anyone talking about homeschooling for high school? Let kids and families take charge of their education their are online programs and schools now. I know high school kids who are taking courses, independent study, finding internships. You can still get an education and not be enrolled in a brick and motar school. It doesn’t have to be an all or nothing.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

      My middle daughter, homeschooled, officially dropped out at 16 – she was attending Harvard Extension courses, doing well, and homeschooling requirements were just wasting her time. She would have gotten a GED, but you can’t test for one in MA until your are 18.

    • Anonymous

      The parents of kids who drop out are NOT interested in homeschooling.  They have other issues which which they have to deal.

  • Anonymous

    What I keeping hearing in this discussion, and reading in the comments below, is the attitude that high school dropouts are damaged kids. Desiree’s story is one of a young woman finding her way out of a dehumanizing system that was failing her and taking control of her life. I did the same thing at 16 when I dropped out of high school and went to work full time. I earned a GED at 17 and started college with my peers, much happier and more intellectually prepared than I would have been if I’d been forced to stay in school until 18.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    Just to get it out there, why not raise the required level of education in this country all the way up to 30? Science has proven that the human brain does not fully develop until the mid to late 20s. Why do we as a society let kids out into the world while they are still developing as people and think they are fully functioning and rational adults? I am 25 and man do I know I still have some kinks to work out.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      You have the option to continue your education, in many ways.
         Since some drop out at early ages, are you encouraging forced ‘education’ until the age of 30, or was that an incomplete thought?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

        Mostly an incomplete thought. Something generally aimed at a redefinition of adolescence to when our brains stop developing rather than just 18. Anything “forced” like a mandatory public education into your late 20s or so would only come about after said redefinition. Broad scope.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Ok.  Thanks.

  • Patrik

      A lot of my peers in High School were deciding to drop out because they didnt think they had any talents or were good enough in any academic subjects to work towards a future career. 
      I think that High Schools should start focusing more on having students explore the potential talents that students have so they have something to work towards earlier.  Raising the dropout rate raises the chances that they discover that talent or skill to work towards.

    • Patrik

      *raising the dropout AGE, not rate lol

  • BrianInBoston

    Your panelist simply does not understand that she’s part of the problem because she does NOT UNDERSTAND that for some kids there are no other options.  Kids in small towns don’t have options, particularly gay kids or kids who are otherwise different.  OPEN YOUR EARS and listen to the kids who’ve been through this!  That’s the real way to stop kids from dropping out.

  • BL

    School administrations don’t do enough to keep kids from dropping out. I was amazed at how easy it was for me to leave high school. In retrospect I wish someone had at least questioned me and tried to make me stay instead of sending me along with a stamp and a handshake.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    In the Philippines the Senior High school students graduate at the age of 16 or 17 and finished college at age of 23.

    • Anonymous

      Gee, just like the USA.

  • Saxbabe

    What about the issue of kids who continually disrupt continually in classes?  Teachers must deal with those who have absolutely no interest in being in school and who interfere with the educational process of those who want to be in school.  A body in school does not mean that he/she is being educated.  Best to leave the environment  and get a GED when the realization hits that you need an education.

  • Maryann

    We may need a top down rejiggering of standards and opinions.  Like felons, high school dropouts or those with only a high school education – are considered to be “less than” when applying for a job.  There is little effort to value the experience this group has garnered in life and in the workplace while others were at college – perhaps learning, perhaps partying.

  • Rex

    How can that guy compare the Amish to the public school system? Where is the argument for the completely different social structures. Few public school dropouts are dropping out of school because they want to start a career.

  • Sara in VT

    If the schools are not teach students what they need to know being in for 2 extra years is not going to help.  How about asking  teachers/students/families what they need for students to be more successful rather than imposing more rules.  

  • Steve in Vermont

    I live in a small, rural community.  I have a Master’s degree in Education, but can only find part-time work.  My buddy, a high school drop-out, works in private construction and makes tens of thousands of dollars more than I do each year!

  • Vtcheflw

    School is not the only path to success.  Learning to be productive and organized can come in many contexts.  The government should not force people to go to school.

  • Dh001g

    The conversation really shows how “one size fits all” education is really failing. Another “one size fits all” solution will only compound the problem. I think the discussion about vocational education-giving a great education but one which is rooted in practical application of knowledge which is relevant to students is more fruitful. I really don’t think everyone needs to learn Abstract Algebra. If they learned Algebra while working the CC machine to become a highly paid machinist we would have a lot lower drop out rate. It would also help US companies that can’t find enough qualified workers in high tech manufacturing. I heard Finland has a 5 hour school day and only 3 hours of that time is structured and yet their test scores are much higher. That suggests a lot of wasted time in our system.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      But education isn’t just about getting a job.  It’s also about being able to participate effectively in democracy.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        Education and Democracy has nothing to do with each other. Politics and Education are 2 different world.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          How can you participate in democracy without an education?  How will you understand the complexity of our problems or the potential of proposed solutions?

          • Anonymous

            Vote Republican.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            because you don’t TEACH POLITICS WITH MY 8 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER GET ME?

          • Anonymous

            Wow, what a response.
            It seems to me that you’re into keeping your child ignorant or only thinking as you do. That’s an interesting philosophy but one that is flawed and doomed for failure.

            I know civics classes went the way of music and art, but I dare say you sir are a shinning example of the necessity of bringing them back. 

          • Cory on the Oder

            Tee hee!

        • Yar

          Education is essential to democracy.  An informed public that can exercise wise choice is necessary for self governance to survive. Or the selfish interests will pass tax cuts for the rich… oh, I get your point, you don’t want government to work.

        • Anonymous

          Interesting idea. An uneducated person is an advantage for demagogues, so I do see your point on this level. 

  • BEEZ

    Educationr eform is probably the most important piece in improvig America.
    This isn’t an end-all, but it’s a step in the right direction. What are the Repub’s trying to do? Cut funding to schools, increase funding to military.
    That says it all right there. Who are the true patriots?

  • L Newman

    As a high school teacher of 10 years and now a school coach for high schools across the nation, I think all the comments and commentators speak to the real needs of American people.  We need all the options on the time.  It’s time to stop thinking about high school as 4 years of xxx in xxx building, etc.  Time to think about secondary education and make sure that ALL the options are open to all students.  We shouldn’t be waiting until students are failing to provide choices.  That’s how so many fall through the cracks.  Some students do not do well within the four walls, but an education plan can support learners across a wide spectrum

  • Vtcheflw

    If the choices being made by our leaders are the makings of a good education, keep me dumb.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    I bet Gregg Camp is Itchy to argue with someone today because He was a former school teacher or should a frustrated school teacher.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Nope, I’ll be teaching World Lit. I later today.

  • CK

    I missed a few minutes, so perhaps I’m being redundant. And in fact it sounds like Cecelia was just mentioning some of my ideas.

    What if 16-18 was a “probationary” dropout period and students who wanted (or needed, ie bullying like the earlier caller) to not be in the traditional school setting were required to maintain a regular connection with a school guidance counselor to create and get help following through on a plan for education or vocational training or employment. Of course, this means the schools would need more resources to create and maintain this kind of support.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      CUTS to everyone, except the wealthy, are the Republican attitudes!

  • Charles

    Let em drop out iff they pass the senior finals.  Inspire them to learn to leave early.

  • Karoline

    Reading the comments to this discussion here I see so many informed observations about the real problems with high schools. Wouldn’t it be terrific if Congress and the president actually did a study of the issues in middle schools and high schools and did some federal revamps of the whole system to modernize it? Once again, a politician proposes a band-aid to treat the cancer of issues in our schools. Once again, a politician proposes a top-down solution to an issue instead of listening to millions of stories describing the problems with our educational system. Maybe Obama has forgotten how to listen?

  • Ellen Dibble

    So I’m looking now, in my own work, at a high school graduate who admittedly cannot read.  “They tell me where to sign my name, and I sign it.”  This gives a huge advantage in terms of deniability.  Oh, I didn’t understand that.  No, I wasn’t told that, though I signed my name to that.  But in terms of things that the brain can’t wrap itself around quickly, certain medical conditions a child might be confronting, all of a sudden this individual wishes he hadn’t “slipped through” high school, and says he needs some glasses, by which I think he means classes, so he can read this or that, the long words as well as the short.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Maybe DID need glasses?  Certainly needs classes!

  • Terry Tree Tree

    We , the taxpayers, have been paying ‘experts’, for decades, to solve this problem! 
       Which are the solutions that work?
        What didn’t work?  Are we STILL using them?
     
    Are we paying ‘experts’, for NO viable sucess?

  • Modavations

    You guys are making this way too complicated.Reestablish the nuclear family and the rest is a snap

    • Terry Tree Tree

      If it is so simple, how, SPECIFICALY, would YOU do it?

    • Tracy

      So what does that entail, exactly? Banning divorce? Doesn’t that interfere with personal freedom?

  • Tom in Vermont

    DON’T LET ANYONE GRADUATE (from the UK)
    One big problem is the graduation diploma. I’m from the UK, and no-one “graduated high school”. At 16, you took 7 or 8 “Ordinary level” exams (“”O” levels”) , in everything from woodworking to physics and French, depending on which you had chosen to study. Those who leave at 16 leave with ‘O’ levels. If you have 7 or 8 passes you did really well, and if you had 3 to 4 in woodworking, technical cad drawing, English, Art, and say, Geography, you did pretty well, and many went off to work and technical college part time, and did great. Others are highly experienced and successful carpenters, electricians etc.
    Those that stayed took between 2 and 4 “Higher” level exams and went on to university. No-one graduated high school. Even the person with only 2 “O” levels can still show that they were good with their hands in woodworking, metalworking, or culinary

    And yes, more technical schools, building trades, etc. after 16

  • jalapenomom

    I believe one reason adolescence is so protracted is that kids seem to engage less and less in REAL WORK until later and later.

  • http://www.facebook.com/peggy.sapphire Peggy Sapphire

    as a former special education HS counselor I suggest the drop-out rate, whether at 18 yrs or not is about generations of disenfranchised students within a failing system. Question: if drop-out age is raised, what other systemic changes will occur to prevent such disenfranchisement?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      If the students wouldn’t disenfranchise themselves, they would learn.

    • Modavations

      When I was a kid,there were 6 or seven kids that were special needs.They participated along with the rest of us in a seperate room in Newton North High School.Now everyone is a Special needs kid.I can’t believe they give Adderol to kids

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        lol you meant Adderall

        • Modavations

          probably

  • Marcella J Kapsaroff

    What about home schooled children? Will they be affected by this edict?

  • Scott in Cambridge

    I graduated 12th in my class out of 300, but failed out of college.  I attended a vocational high school, and I thank my teachers whenever I see them.  I’m 30, I live comfortably, and still use the skills I learned when I was 15 in my Mechanical Drawing class.  If I didn’t have the alternative education as a high school student, I have no Idea what I would be doing today.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Many countries have longer school years than the U.S. According to a UNESCO study of 43 countries, 33 of them have school years longer than 180 days. Some go as many as 220 days per year. Whether or not the number is nationally mandated varies from country to country.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      I used to attend schools on weekends or Saturdays during my high schools and studied almost 5 hours a day.

    • Tom in Vermont

      Yes, but many of them do not ‘graduate’ high school. They leave school with exam passes showing what they are good at. Some have 7 or 8 in a broad range and tend to stay in school, others have passes in metalworking, technical, culinary, and more hands on exams, and do well in their trades. There is no ‘graduation diploma’, therefore no stigma.

  • http://www.facebook.com/etoile Eliot Walter

    If it were raised to 18, I would still have dropped out at 16 anyway. The schools I went to were unsafe, mentally and physically.  I went to school in California and Kentucky, five different schools, and none of those schools taught me anything.  If I had access to a Montessori school from the start I would have had a chance, but the schools I went to did NOT teach respect.  I went to a alternative school in tenth grade, but  at the point it was too late.  I learned in spite of school; I would read fiction and science fact until very late at night.  That made me so tired during the day that I be numb and my grades were F’s and D’s

  • KIM

    My boy at 14 was the academic king of his class then dropped like a rock at our “good” suburban school. 
    His thoughts now at age 26?  School seemed irrelevant; teachers condescending, subjects not applicable to todays world, warehousing one size fits all students.  
    My thoughts?  Mandated unfunded expenses result in  overworked principals working late trying to pinch pennies; teachers who feel boxed in by mandated curriculum; a big percentage of students who are set up to fail….
    Please give us OUT SIDE THE BOX ALTERNATIVES….MANDATING SCHOOL TO AGE 18 IS NOT THE ANSWER!

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    No, Ms. Korellis, it was an everyday example from many of the parents.  That was typical, not extreme.

  • Laurel

    The argument that requiring children to be in school for 2 more years will force schools and society to improve is not valid. Requiring children to be in school for the years that we already do has not ensured that we improve schools for those years.

  • Witterquick

    Don’t see the downside of making it law with exceptions as needed.  Are we in need of a two tiered high school system, one for the labor market and one for a professional tract?

  • Modavations

    40% of the Solons send their kids to private school.It’s 10% in the general population

  • Kelly Mc

    It seems that a shortfall of our high school system not necessarily vocational experience but teaching life skills especially for those at risk of dropping out. Managing finances, interviewing, expectations for employees to succeed and be promoted, demands and skills associated with home and family life, etc. Why has that essential skill been pushed to the backburner?

  • Naomi

    I am SO positively impressed by your guest Peggy Korellis! I am a former teacher and wish I’d had the opportunity to work with a principal who “gets it” on such a deep level, her commitment to each individual student is extremely moving. We need more administrators and teachers with her understanding.

  • Ellen Dibble

    About the parents expecting the child to pass.  I hear a lot about how parents are supposed to help children with homework, sometimes several days a week.  Think about it.  The parents may not even know English.  But also, my own memory is that it was considered serious cheating to get parental help.  The idea of homework was to get you to figure something out by yourself, to take whatever time it takes.  If you want an adult looking over your shoulder, you have that in school.  So if a child fails, it’s the child’s fault, not the parent’s.  But a raging parent — is she or he shifting blame off the child, or off his or her own sense of responsibility (onto the teacher)?  Once upon a time, the parent would be out of the equation, or else one would not only get an F; one would be disciplined, severely, for not doing your own work.

  • Thehomageofreason

    Humans like learning and discovery–this desire is instinctual.  The dislike of school or inability to succeed therein is cultivated, not inhierent.  Permit me a metaphor: humans must eat, LOVE to eat, thusly if you run a resturant and very few people enjoy eatting there you’re doing something wrong.   

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Or if you load up on empty calories before you go to the restaurant, you won’t want to eat what you’re served.

      • Ellen Dibble

        Oh, you mean students show up to class all hyped-up and ADD’d with sugary sodas and sweets, and jittery, antsy?  Or simply stuffed, stultified, basically needing time “to digest,” rather than being wired to tangle the brain, competitive and eager.  Oh, I can imagine it.

  • jalapenomom

    Schools should incorporate real work into curricula. The physical plant has maintenance and repair needs; meals are cooked and served each day; the larger community has needs that young people can learn to serve through rotating teams that would provide both students with real knowledge and skills and empowering self-confidence as well as helping to maintain infrastructure. In Japan, students serve and clean up the daily lunch meal. There are regular times in the year that Japanese students go out and clean up the community. These tasks would not need to take away from calculus or higher academic pursuits.

    • Anonymous

      I know people who grew up there and while they do clean up the classrooms and sweep the halls they do not cook nor do the heavy cleaning such as bathrooms. Some schools have teams in which serving lunch is part of the activities. This stops in Junior High school by the way.

  • Anonymous

    Maybe take away the child tax credit for the parents whose children drop out. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Good idea.

      • Modavations

        This is what I call the financial incentive

    • Steve

      Attempted teaching Special Education in large urban area.

      Was able to help some 7th grade children attend regular classes – not a panacea by any stretch of the imagination, but I think most teachers live off of quite small victories.

      I was confronted by:
           -parents who did not want their children removed from Special Education classes.  State financial aid was available to the families of children to age 21 for challenged students, only to 18 years old if attending regular classes.
           -principals who did not want potentially lower achieving children pulling down the No Child Left Behind testing results of standard classes.
           -some teachers that were burned out or trying to get into the higher paying administrative jobs (and away from the children) as quickly as possible.

      In some cases the teacher is the only advocate these kids have.  My final class had 17 children, only one of which came from a home with a father and mother.

      The way in which government aid to schools/families/children is measured and administered creates many problems.

      So I come back to my earlier post -
      we as a nation do not value all people and unfortunately I believe government policy cannot mandate us to do so and in many cases has the opposite/negative result.

      So to my Republican/free market/libertarian friends on this board:
           -do all people have inherent value, if so, how do you suggest that it be realized and why is it important to the country that it is? What are you personally doing to ensure that your children’s children live in a society that is not polarized and as a result crumbling.

      To my liberal friends:
           -a detached government, dictating rules/mandates has unintended consequences that are destroying schools/children/families.  What are you personally doing to ensure that your children’s children live in a just society that is not polarized and as a result crumbling? 

          

      • Modavations

        The market sorts the wheat from the chaff

        • Steve

          I read and try to understand your point of view.

               -if we identify people as chaff, and we want the nation to endure, what is your plan to get from here to there? Immediate implementation of market based solutions may relegate many to hoplessness.  The chaff will not go quietly into that good night.

          • Modavations

            I’m laissez faire.We don’t believe in plans.We don’t believe in telling people what to do.

          • Anonymous

            Well that explains everything.
            Good thing General Marshall did not believe in your nonsensical world view.

          • Modavations

            Free Enterprise saved Europe,not Marshall.It did the same in Korea and Japan.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        VERY GOOD COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS!!

  • Rich64

    raising the age to 18 is not a solution.  As a Teacher I have called students at home to make sure they come to school that day.  But make the kids succeed,  there needs to be a reason for kids to be there.  If we cut programs and stuff classes, nothing will change.  Communities and the Fed. Gov. need to commit resources for reasons for students to get out of bed.  Art, music, athletics, vocational training, school to work programs.  All these things work, but only if we are willing to pay for it.

    • notafeminista

      Why are you, as the educator, doing the parents’ job?

  • Dave

    Not surprising that the Princeton professor sees the entire situation in terms of money.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      You get what you pay for.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Maybe, maybe not!  Price is NOT always the indicator of quality!
           Quality SHOULD get a higher price!

  • Ellen Dibble

    As to disruptive students, I like the idea of creating alternative classes.  I’m thinking of how many social workers are especially effective because of their own confrontations with the rough edges of life.  There are probably teachers who are especially effective with disruptive students, and who can be very, very important to those students in ways that the more focused students don’t really need.

    • Modavations

      shoot em

      • Ellen Dibble

        The teachers?  That is what sometimes happens.

        • Modavations

          both

  • Abby

    For students who are thinking about leaving the public school system, they should read, Grace Llewellyn’s Teenage-Liberation-Handbook-How to Quite School and get a Real Life Education.
    For most kids in our country, staying in school until age 18 is a good idea.  Still, there are many kids who find the culture of public school toxic, irrelevant, or boring.  There are options: K-12 International Online Academy, Virtual Schools, Key Stone Online School, Unschooling,Homeschooling. There are ways to earn a high school diploma without ever stepping into the building.  I think it was Mark Twain who said, “Don’t let school get in the way of your education.”

  • Sheila

    Re: educational darwinism of murfreesboro tn – public highschools completely oriented towards successful talented students. Average non academic kids know they are not valued in any way and are almost pushed out. Once a whisper of trouble is associated with a student they are marked and targeted.

    • Sisu42

      You are right about not being valued – teenagers should be highly valued in society, but they make adults uncomfortable socially (“no loitering” signs, etc. keep kids from “hanging around”). I think that most teens probably feel undervalued, or perhaps loved only for their academic achievements, in some cases.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        MOST valuation is on Sports!  Go to ANY sporting event, then academic competition, and COMPARE the number of parents, and others!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Mayor Menino of Boston temporary hired almost 50 high school teachers from the Philippines to teach in Boston Public schools because of low SAT and low graduation rate. These Filipino school teachers overhaul the Boston Public school curriculum and they succeed.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If the schools are not serving your children, and they are being bullied and/or warehoused/thwarted, would you have them drop out or try to homeschool them?  I think almost any parent would rather homeschool, but how to do that if you’ve got a full-time job and very little education yourself?

  • Jpgphotography

                    Up until the spring of last year I was a high school student in Rochester NY. The High School That I attended had the highest graduation rate in the district and one of the highest attendance rates as well. I believe that this success was due in part to the fact that my school was an arts centric High School. The teachers were extremely dedicated and the students were involved in  their education as well. The former superintendant of the Rochester City Schools is now in charge of the Chicago Schools, while Mr. Jean-Claude Brizard was at Rochester my school was constantly faced with massive crippling cuts. My question is that, with such a successful school that was one of the best in the district, why were these and similar programs constantly being cut?
    Also is a link to the Rochester School Of The Arts students reaction to the threatened cuts.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnDf2uhyjPM

  • Modavations

    I graduated High School in 1969.No one dropped out.Why you ask?.Back then,we still had 2 family households.The pernicious Welfare State starting in 1965 and hadn’t worked it’s malevolence

    • Anonymous

      Isn’t Newton an upper middle class community?  Not exactly where the problem is. 

      • Modavations

        2 parent families are not geographically circumscribed.Newton has made CNN’s top 5 places to live for the last 30 years.In a free enterprise system,you make your way,make some money,then move to Newton.Did you ever hear of Jerry Tsai(Manhattan Fund).Me and his kid Van went to school together.He’s from H.Kong and started with niente.

        • Modavations

          So did my daddy

    • Anonymous

      Your comment is false. My mother worked in the some pretty bad neighborhoods in for the New York City school system in the 60′s, 70, and 80′s and this was as much a problem then as now. If you come from a dysfunctional family and live in a neighborhood with a lot of crime, unemployment and no role models of success chances are finish high school is not going to be on top of your list.

      As I said before, this is a complex issue. Then again judging by your comments I don’t think you’re one to be making judgment calls on our education system.  

      • Modavations

        That, as always is my pet peeve.The Left destroyed the nuclear family.These patholgies started after Johnson’s War on Poverty.When Moynihan said beware the unintended consequence,he was called racist
        Do you realize you actually made a statement without the usual invective.Thanks.

        • Anonymous

          Well the poverty in East New York and Harlem, were my mother worked, was there before any of the social programs you are railing against. The problems of these neighborhoods were the same as they are now.
          I have a friend worked with teaching pregnant teens in the inner city. She left the program due to burnout and pure frustration over dealing with social problems that are way beyond what any school can deal with. When you have 12 and 14 year old children being raped by their fathers and uncles or gang raped in elevators of the projects they live in you are dealing with a very different set of social psychological problems.

          • Anonymous

            No, it is all LBJ’s fault.  Except for the parts that are FDR’s. 

          • Anonymous

            I thought everything was Obama’s fault.
            I was cut off on the road the other day and I blamed Obama, LBJ and Barney Frank.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Careful, Moda’s interest in Barney Frank was posted many times in the past!

          • Modavations

            Terry blamed “W”.Terry,I see the anonymous stalkers were back last night.The only difference is you still use your real name.Or do you?

          • Modavations

            Hey Terry Tee Pee.FDR’s family was as Greeedy,Greeeeedy Rich as a Kennedy,or a Jay Rock.FDR was a wanna be dictatior.He brought us the Presidential term limit

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ‘W’ compared himself to FDR, who’s FIVE sons served in U.S. Millitary, during WWII!  FDR’s son, James, was a U.S. Marine Carlson’s Raider!  He fought BEHIND Japanese lines! 
                Did ‘W’s daughters do similiar in Afghanistan?

          • Modavations

            Before Welare the black illegitamcy rate was 15%.Today it’s 70%.In the ghetto it’s 90%

          • Terry Tree Tree

            You make SO many unfounded, or incorrect statements!

          • notafeminista

            And there you go.  Man I love it when the Left confronts the problems they created.

          • Anonymous

            I love it when right wing ideologues write shite.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The ‘conservative’ answer was to leave people living under bridges, or where-ever, as long as they kept out of sight of the self-righteous!

        • BradTx

          My parents divorced in 1970, and it had nothing to do with welfare. It did have everything to do with the 60′s however. My mom recovered nicely, as she went on to have many relationships. My dad never could get over a women dumping an alcoholic bastard. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            A LOT of alcoholic bastards cannot figure that out!  They keep drinking up the grocery, rent, and other monies, being abusive, and CANNOT imagine a woman that can resist their charm and worth.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Guys, white and other, were leaving women pregnant, or with children to take care of , and disappearing, for ALL of history!  One parent, taking care of the children, AND providing food, clothing, shelter, and education for the children of two?  MOST do a much better job than the guys that desert them!

    • BradTx

      The drop out rate in 1950 was 50%, before Welfare. People dropped out because you could get a high paying job at an auto factory without a high school diploma. 

      • Modavations

        one out of every three black kids is in prison,parole,or probation.They need daddies,not food stamps

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Your ‘memory’ via heavy metals, is totally hallucinogenic?   
         There were 16-year-olds in sixth grade, waiting for their seventeenth birthday!  Next day, they were NOT in school again.
         Here, they were planning on going North, for a job, or staying close and cutting pulpwood.
         Statistics, and the news articles of that time, will show anyone interested, that your inaccuracies are HUGE!
         2 family households?  Did you mean 2 parent households?
         Anyone with an education, reading your comments, would be hard to convince that you attended high school?

      • Modavations

        What in the world are you talking about.Of course I meant 2 parent households.Only NPR’s lamest poster can’t figure it out

        • Terry Tree Tree

          People with a high-school education can say 2 PARENT household, when that is what they mean?

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Before my children entered Kindergarten, I determined that their education was MY responsibility, first and foremost! 
       When they had good to excellent teachers, I coasted.  When they had teachers that should have been doing something else, I made sure they were up to grade level.
       ALL my children have Masters, which is above my own education level.
       They are sucessful, and well-respected.
       I have substitute taught, K-12, and saw a lot of the problems with public school, and a LOT of the sucesses. 
       The best, and most-effective teachers, keep their curiosity, and thirst for learning, and communicate that to their students.
       Teaching in public schools, is not usually an eight-hour day, or even a ten-hour day, if done right. 
       I have heard, and experienced horror stories of bad teachers.  Most were good to GREAT.
        There are a LOT of problems that need to be solved. 
       The problem is, that we are going to pay for education, or the LACK of education, with prison, and criminals that are a detriment to society.

  • Brianclague

    Someone needs to moderate this board and take down posts which are not part of a respectful dialogue.

    • Anonymous

      I’d rather read posts that are disrespectful than have a moderator decide what I can read. 

      • Modavations

        I laugh when people say the left is open minded and tolerant

        • Terry Tree Tree

          YOU have called for some censorship!

          • Modavations

            NPR’s foremost Fire Bug has to chirp..You will never,ever,ever,hear me say that.I even defend Hidan’s right to be a bigot.Please cite an example my hysterical young lady

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            Triple T’s is a Lady?

          • Modavations

            Who knows.I always think he/she is a hysterical woman.Terry had to tell some guy yesterday that he’s a man.Quien sabes.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            okay…

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Male.

          • Modavations

            They just ran a piece on Nashville being a “crack” hub.Now I understand your problem.Now I understand why you’re such a gossip,busy body

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Erroneously calling me a drug-addict?  What level will you stoop to? 
              YOU that claimed mercury and lead in your childhood had no detrimental effects on you?
               Your own comments posted prove you wrong on that matter.
              

        • Cory on the Oder

          I laugh when people say the right is generous and compassionate.

          • Modavations

            Let Adam Smith’s invisible hand rule.We hate Social Workers with your,paternalism,and patronizing.There there little black man.We know you can’t make it on your own,we’ll help you.There there

        • Terry Tree Tree

          You ASSume that Brianclague is left-wing?

    • Anonymous

      What? And remove all that entertainment.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Personally, I’ll prefer freedom of speech, and the right to disagree with!
         I do ask people to watch their language, as children may be on here, and it shows a lack of effective vocabulary.

  • Greyman

    Reflecting on P. Caruso’s citation of a draft way down on this page: Obama’s grand idea of having all states institute mandatory school attendance (why did he not issue another Federal fiat to effect the policy?) is as laudable as compulsory military service in the US. And almost exactly as viable politically, to my pedestrian mind.

  • Someotherclown

    I think this is a bizarre idea that conflicts with recent research. To narrow the rich-poor achievement gap, we should be putting resources into the preschool years, when interventions have so much more impact. Have free, compulsory schooling start at 2 or 3 — this will also be a huge help to working parents who can’t afford child care — and let kids leave at 16. High school is a horribly rigid, oppressive environment for adolescents anyway. I recommend Leon Botstein’s “Jefferson’s Children” — he offers a brilliant critique of the contemporary high school and gives a prescription to fix it, which includes releasing kids at a younger age.

    • Greyman

      Right: let’s just have the State relieve parents of all parental responsibility as early as possible and for as long as possible, so that caring bureaucrats can raise their children for them. Age 2 or 3 is an arbitrary enough standard: why not 6 or 8 months? why not at birth make them wards of the State, for life? –Alternatively: why not just abolish public education outright and get the State completely out of an enterprise it is ill-equipped to handle well and which it continues to manage poorly overall? The politicization of education insures its ruination, which is why most graduates of Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, Yale, et cetera, attended private prep schools, no?

      • Kitteechan

        Well, why can’t there be a mix of both. For those of you who believe the gov’t is trying to kidnap and brainwash your children – you can elect to send your child to a school with a shorter day K-12. And for those of us who want our kids to be able to compete globally – we’ll have extended-days and programs like headstart and pre-school.

        To suggest that those who want their children to have a proper education are giving their children to the gov’t is inflammatory and rude. Though, after reading your other comments, it becomes clear that you meant it to be. Shame on you!

        BTW, I would bet that those private prep schools – the ones that send students to Harvard, Yale, etc – had longer school days…

        • Greyman

          I don’t like being rude, so let’s just say “provocative”. Apart from that, I will continue to contend that education is no more the province of the Federal government than of any State government in the Union. Public education has been a deflating political football for decades now, the politicization continues unabated. And what news do we get just today from the progressive bulwark known as California? A leading university confesses one of its administrators inflated SAT score reports to boost its rankings (shades of Atlanta, GA); elsewhere in the Golden State, a public school teacher has been charged with abusing his students in gruesome fashion for decades. (BTW: are teachers’ unions ever liable for members’ molestations of students? failing that, are teachers’ unions ever charged with enforcing any kind of sensible rules against molesting students? exactly what “professional” standards does the NEA champion in its copious spare time?) Public education has outlived its usefulness, I contend, because passive parents have learned to assume that it’s up to the schools to educate their little darlings without any parental involvement whatsoever; public schools are performing poorly if through a combination of drop-outs and poor student performance only 60% of students succeed in gaining any kind of education to speak of; teachers’ unions don’t commonly demonstrate any academic aptitude, the only profession lazier intellectually than the class of public school teachers is the class of professonal journalists, in my limited experience.    

          • Modavations

            Ooo,la la.Most righteous

          • Greyman

            Thank you, although I claim only to be indignant.

      • todd hoopers

        youd like that so you could whine about wahhh welllfareeee all day. Public education worked fine since the 20s, as soon as there is a cultural shift every lazy thinker rushes to harp on the system itself. That last sentence is the dumbest thing and if you can’t figure out why you’re no testament to private schools

        • Greyman

          Pft. I’d like to see a policy shift commensurate with the cultural shift. Public education continues to be the object of severe political pulling and tugging that it’s been since Brown v. Board, with so many conflicting or competing demands put upon it. Federal policies tilt the see-saw every time an Administration changes from Republican to Democrat and vice versa. Many state policies are no more enlightened than most Federal policies: otherwise, the institution of public education would not be in need of the continuous and perennial “reform and improvement” that we’re told year after year, decade after decade is coming to the rescue. Stop the farce, already: abolish public education. After all, if private education is good enough for Obama’s kids, it should be good enough for everyone else, hunh? 

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1580073413 Katherine Westfall Thomas

      Studies have proven that early intervention programs such as Head Start lose their effectiveness once children reach the end of 1st grade. There is no statistical data that shows effectiveness of pushing children out of homes and into preschools before the standard Kindergarten age.

      • Vnmartyh

        They do not lose their effectivness the student who needs early interventions needs them to continue through out their education years. The intervention is not a vacine that innoculates against a disease ( many of which also we now know need  to be followed up by booster shots) it simply lifts the student closer to his comptent peers, who increase their competency and pull away ……. again leaving the other behind.

  • Wolongope

    Very interesting show today. Although I don’t believe forcing kids to stay in school is the answer. Education must be a privilege, not something forced upon everyone. I love pizza, but if you force me to eat it every day I’ll soon hate it. Might even vomit. No doubt I’d end up depressed and then put on medication. :-)
    The focus should be on INCENTIVES to keep kids in school, not on enforcing a policy that turns schools in to daycare-prisons. 
    Kids and parents have got to have options, but the real changes need to start with the family. Instead of raising the drop out age, we might better use our resources to train parents on how to be parents. If we want to require education, require parents to take parenting classes. That will solve multiple social problems and pay back many times over in the future. Parenting is the biggest job most of us will ever have and we really never get any training. Crazy!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      HOW is forcing children to get an education that will improve their future, comparable to forcing someone to eat the same food, that may or may not be a balanced meal, every day?
         I agree that many parents do NOT know how to be parents!
         When girls are raped, including being lied to for sex, then deserted by the ‘sperm-donor’, to raise the child by herself, what do you expect?
        A male that raised his children after their mother deserted them, I have worked with many disgusting guys that BRAGGED about the children that they had deserted, to go start more!  I DON’T call that a man!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    No need to have Moderator as long we respect each other. I should be the one to ask for a moderator because I’m always the one who gets ridiculed, bad mouth and bullied.

    • Modavations

      Now,now Fax68 when NPR’s Totalitarians get done shooting arrows at me ,I look like a friggin porcupine.The Left is not open minded.The Left is as tolerant like Pol Pot’s Cambodia

      • Anonymous

        When you learn the difference between left and right then maybe people will start to take you seriously. 

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          Common Jeff68 You don’t even know the meaning of left or right. you acknowledge you are left but some of your comments are right.

          • Anonymous

             Yeah, I know. Like you two guys are jokes.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            When you’re right, you’re right!

        • Modavations

          Dude you’re left of Stalin

          • Anonymous

          • J Berwick

            I jack off into mayonnaise bottles. What? I don’t do that! I used to, but I don’t anymore! Who does that?! I don’t. Who’s talking back here? What?

        • Anonymous

          I think the problem’s not so much left-right, but truth-lie.

    • Anonymous

      Ahh poor you, such a victim.
      So calling people freaks is not a ridicule or bad mouthing folks in your view. You get back what you dish out buddy.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        I called people Freaks if they fired the first shot.

        • Modavations

          You know that guy.He’s the one who only gets out of his bed on one side.The mean side.He’s as big an offender as there is.An A-Team Bully.If we did a profile we’d find a failed,embittered man

          • Terry Tree Tree

            People that have been on here for over a month, know you for the HYPOCRITE that you are!

          • todd hoopers

            Ever hear of a space bar, you should have stayed in high school yourself.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            In another article comment page, Moda said he is in second grade?

        • J Berwick

          Would you like some fruit? How about a banana? Do you even like bananas?

    • J Berwick

      Maybe it’s because you’re a stupid whore

  • Laela Warnecke

    I think this would be great to implement in the United States. I see no true reason why students should be allowed to leave high school prior to turning eighteen (or even after the age of eighteen). Why not make there no cut-off date? I believe every person needs at least a high school diploma in order for the nation to become stronger. That is after all the purpose of implementing nation-wide public education. No more slipping through the cracks.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Best comment today. TRUE in order to compete with other nations in science and math an 18 yr old adolescent should be at least a high school graduate. if they leave High School before graduation that child will have no future or will be left out in real the world.

      • Abbyklein49

        That is assuming the teen engages in no further learning or skill training

    • J Berwick

      This is the worst thing I’ve eva’ heard. In my entiuh’ life.

  • Silent_g

    This is absolutely a civil rights issue. It is just another attack on our liberties. This nation became the great nation that it is because of freedom. It is will alone that makes individuals great and successful. Government does not create progress, but the lack of government is what America should be about.  Freedom!!!!
     

    • todd hoopers

      “freedom” here being a code word for “white privilege.” Government does create progress, scientific progress, social progress, economic progress through infrastructure and breaking up trusts as well as redistributing money that sits uselessly for eons in trust funds.

  • Brian

    While I don’t think that raising the dropout age to 18 is bad, I believe that without sufficient support from families – whether parents, extended family, etc. – the dropout age will be relatively irrelevant. Additionally, local communities and taxpayers need to be prepared to pay additional taxes to allow school systems to afford personnel and programs that support students who are at risk of dropping out of school.

    • Modavations

      The budget is nothing but waste and fraud.Cut the spending,cut the taxes.I’m with Buffet,everyone should pay an 18% tax rate

      • Anonymous

        That wasn’t what he said. 

        • Modavations

          He said raise taxes.I said no friggin way mate

  • Evan

    You guys are acting like dropping out has nothing to do with the communities children grow up in. Some of them have to work to help support their family. Keeping them in school is only going to put more pressure on them and their families. This law will do nothing to fix that.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    I thought the American Public School is Free? So, Why the high drop out rate.

    • J Berwick

      ‘Cause you’re a stupid whore! You age in whore years and every seven years you get more whore-ny you stupid whore!

  • AC

    how will this be enforced? what are the penalties?

  • Modavations

    Snoop Dog says he’s for Ron Paul.I might give the man a second look.Snoop’s smarter then you Lefty Idealogues by a long shot

    • todd hoopers

      hahah yeah, the guy who thought there would be hyperinflation in 2008, who thinks people should die quietly in their homes to replace medicare, who thinks the gold standard is a good idea and that raw milk laws are turning people into zombies. libertarianism is an ideology, a damned stupid one.

  • Shonne

    Hi this was a great discussion about the high school completion rate. Wonder if you would consider a story about college completion, which is an issue National Louis University in Chicago, is addressing through innovative programs that involve community, as well as maintaining a tuition
    structure less expensive than private nonprofit peers. As important as President Obama’s recent proposal on the cost of higher ed, is the completion success rate.

  • Gregg

    I agree with the commenters who say without parental support teachers jobs are impossible. The breakdown of the 2 parent family certainly is an influence. The welfare state has caused children to grow up without a work ethic. That translates to schoolwork. Newt was right.

    Another problem is teacher’s unions. They are a perfect example of why public sector unions are an abomination. It pits the teachers against the best interest of the students. We end up with crap like this.

    http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/10702-nyc-teacher-banned-from-classroom-still-paid-100k-a-year-wont-retire

    I don’t have kids yet I pay for education. I’m not convinced it makes things better.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TPVGHR7OPH47B7OHA5OOQJQ5PM HB

    Struggling to teach kids to flourish as if it were 1980 or even 1992 isn’t what’s needed.

    Will most of America ever realize it’s things like social skills, responsibility, finding your strengths, initiative (especially initiative — being a self-starter — what school often weakens), and then developing your strengths that lead to success?

    • J Berwick

      PUDDIN’ MAN!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Dunderave

    One argumrnt that was used against the military draft system is that young men (then) were not able to plan their lives – maybe they would be drafted and maybe not.  I’ve become convinced that there should be a system of universal one or two years of public service: serve in the military, in hospitals, soup kitchens, educational programs for the underserved, national park service, or in any of many agencies.  There are no exceptions for wealth or fame: everybody serves.  It’s good for the country, good for the individual, broadens their views and experiences and better prepares them for their next steps. 

    How about a program on this topic? 

  • Tmcgraw

    Growing up on the coast, I know a number of individuals who made great grades in school, but, at the age of 16 decided to drop out and pick up the family buissness of lobstering.  They now own their own boats and make significantly more money than I do as a college graduate working at a law firm in Manhatten. 

    There are many cases were dropping out and working simply makes sense.  To enact a blanket policy that requires all students, regardless of their personal situation, to stay in school until 18 would be a mistake.  Their are regions and  sub-cultures in the United States where a highschool diploma is as worthless as the paper it is printed on. 

    • todd hoopers

      and if those guys end up unable or unwilling to do that same kind of work, then what. What about the guys who drop out in anticipation of doing farming or whatever, then what? A diploma is better than a GED.

    • J Berwick

      Drink some juice.

  • Brian

    This all sounds a lot more preserving funding for our dying education system (schools keeping attendance head count up to receive funding) than a holistic concern about rebuilding our educational status and competitiveness in the global community.  I have two children both graduated from high school, both are going to college.  They are still struggling with what they can do in this country to make a descent living outside becoming an investment banker and live like bottom feeders who dip off other people’s money. 

    We have a serious problem in this country.  Our youth is struggling to visualize where we are going and no longer accept our reasoning face value that if you work hard in school there will be a payback thereafter.  Not the case anymore.  I know many people holding PHD’s and MBA’s that are working at the likes of Jamba Juice to make ends meet.  That is the new America.

    • notafeminista

      1)What defines a decent living?
      2)Competitiveness is no longer allowed.  Everyone gets to play and everyone gets a trophy.

      • todd hoopers

        1) UHH I can tell you its not minimum wage

        2)thanks for the useless bitter comment. if ever i saw a less fitting description of the us economy than “everone gets to play and everyone gets a trophy” ill be amazed

      • J Berwick

        Yeah… everyone gets to play around… with your mom! And then they get a trophy.

    • Modavations

      Tell them to save their money and open a business,like the rest of us did

    • J Berwick

      And you sound like a fat gross person. Fatty. Just kidding! But not really. Or am I? Dunh dunh dunh

  • Tmcgraw

    If this age raise were to be enacted the Federal Government would ine ssence be raising taxes for a local issue.  This should be decided on a state to state, or even a town to town basis.  This is more democratic and would take in to account the various cultural difference from town to town, and gives tax payers a greater say in how their money is spent.  If I live in a town where fishing and lobstering or farming is the largest component of the economy, why should I have to pay more in taxes for kids who just want to drop out and work?  That makes no sense, and the federal government shouldn’t be able to force entire towns of people to do this.

    • Greyman

      I know for a fact that President Obama does not care about democracy when it comes to public education. It’s a tired story I never tire of telling, since NPR assiduously refuses to tell it after much prodding from yours truly. In 2007, Sen. Obama campaigned in a SC school district that had left a derelict school building standing on a middle school campus so it could poormouth about a perceived lack of funding coming from the SC General Assembly. Obama featured a shot from this school in his nomination acceptance video in Denver 13 months later. Barely one month into his term, President Obama saw to it personally that the district received $35 million in “stimulus” funds, which distinctly presents the appearance of paying off a campaign debt with public funds. The more galling detail, though, is this: the district REFUSES to permit elections of public school board members. Not one single solitary school board member in the county is elected, in order to keep the local Democratic Party machine wheezing in place–even though on two occasions, the county’s voters have called for elected school boards. Obama’s notion of “equality” thus seems to be: deprive white voters and black voters equally of accountability in the way their public schools are (mis)managed.

    • todd hoopers

      How much of a burden is your sales tax that you would seriously advocate people go straight to whatever low paying agrarian or retail job as soon as possible. Seriously, this is the 21st century

  • buffalobirdie

    And how are we supposed to pay for all this? We can’t even seem to afford to keep teachers let alone keep students who don’t want to be there.

    • JC

      The whole show and not one mention of how we are supposed to pay for this. How many thousands of extra students are we going to be adding to the classrooms while laying off teachers?

      • Modavations

        Lay em all off and privatize.Make them reapply.They should be ashamed.If I offered such a defective product I’d be run out of business

      • J Berwick

        About twelve.

        • Ebreen123

           i think seven

    • Abdul Lohar

      agreed…First the students need to be inspired and dedicated. Without it, its just waste of time and taxpayers money. Of course teachers play a huge role in inspiring so we do need teachers in schools who give their 110% but then again without any incentives the teachers won’t be motivated to do this either.

    • J Berwick

      Clearly, you pay for it with your own personal monies, you cheap, cheap sicko.

    • Ebreen123

      jew

  • Modavations

    In Steve Job’s book he said SAT’s tanked with the advent of the Dept.of Education.He then stated that the stronger the union got,the further SAT’s slid.End Welfare over time(it will force the reestablishment of the nuclear family),privatise the schools(or eliminate the union.Your choice)and afford school vouchers.While we’re at it,I’d say privatise everything.

    • todd hoopers

      Pfff yeah that mean old department of education, always hampering students with their extremely general guidelines. Plenty of people get perfect scores, how do we explain them? Cutting welfare will do no such thing, no dead beat dad is going to stick around just because the kid is in danger, if they cared they wouldn’t leave. It’s just going to end in more crime and more private prison expenditures. You don’t punish a child for the mistakes of the father. Privatizing all schools is a joke, and how is ending unions going to keep skilled teachers teaching? The whole tenure thing is such a wash, kids failiure stems from the home and from a lack of emphasis as well as exposure to the benefits of getting an education. You’re seriously advocating a drop in the productivity of teachers

      • Ebreen123

        all your friends are sooooo dead and they’ve been dead for thousands of years and they aint even remember you and your fat but every one thinks your bulimic because u smell like vomit

  • Modavations

    One out of three blacks are in prison,parole or probation.The first act of Pres.Obama was to kill the voucher-scholarship program.It was frequented mainly by poor blacks.In other words,the Pres.condemned 500 to lives of impoverishment,misery and worse.

    • Hidan

      Wow and republican are calling for the U.S. to be even more tough on crime. Election year can’t have those blacks and brown people v

      Republicans are so bad(and racist) that blacks and other must turn to democrats to help.

      • notafeminista

        They aren’t stupid.  Why don’t they figure out a way to help themselves?

        • Anonymous

          Wow.

        • todd hoopers

          Christ this attitude is still around? Would you invest in a ghetto? Then who are you to judge them. What are you going to do, sell baked goods in a crime infested neighborhood? Work in the fine ghetto brick and mortar stores? Getting out is a matter of moving and you can’t do that without any money; even a far away address on an application might disqualify you in the eyes of the employer.

          • Ebreen123

            rude

        • Ebreen123

          cuz there retarded u numb nut u silly man u little guy u pin head u gas farting ice lickin perverted spineless dick less cum gargaling stupid A hole

      • Modavations

        Enslavement is not help.Quarenteened ghettos are not help

      • Ebreen123

        so i was going down on my gandma and i tasted horese semen and then i realized thats how she died

    • todd hoopers

      I wonder what the statitistics would be if you ended the drug war.

      • Ebreen123

        probably more people would be doing drugs and killing people and such so yea u can stop the drug wars if want but u might as well shoot your meat loaf before they do stupid

  • Bob

    Look into the history of the movement to push high school education on everyone starting in the 1920s and 30s. It was as much to get hoodlums and teenage radicals off the streets as it was to educate.

    This is not the right approach. You want to change the attitude and get kids to choose to stay– if not, it’s not a lot better than just jailing the kids.

    And the emphasis should be on achievement and accomplishment, not just age. Three of my grandparents only completed primary school, and I’d lay down a lot of money that they could beat the heck out of your average high school grad today in terms of basic education abilities (writing, practical math, practical reasoning skills, etc.).

    • Ebreen123

      ha GAY!

  • Anonymous

    High school did not work for me in 1979. I now work construction with benifits. I earn over 50 to 60 k a year. it also is not working for 2 of my 3 boys and 1 of my 4 girls. The rest did graduate but at a cost. NOT everyone can withstand the system of push and shove…
     

    • Ray in VT

      School just isn’t right for everyone.  My father dropped out to be a farmer, and my brother got through high school by getting into a program that only required him to be there one day per week.  He knew from about age 5 that he was going to be a farmer, so English Lit. didn’t serve any purpose for him.  I have seen some area schools that seem to be doing a good job with their vocational programs.  There was a bit of a stigma associated with such programs back when I was in high school, but forcing some students into a purely academic track does not meet their interests or their needs. 

    • Ebreen123

      hey dont say things like that truency hurts all mcsqwirmy

  • JHMcCann

    in 7th grade (I’m 60 now) I moved. {MASSACHUSETTS). The administration I left said I’ missed 1 year —daily absences (resulting from holding the thermometer to a light bulb). I absolutely loathed school: there were no special needs programs for very bright kids like me. After 7th grade in asked my parents: “you’re legally responsible for my being in school, right? (I’d researched this in the public library). “Yes…” said Mom. I said: “Then  you can go to jail before I’ll go back to public school!” My Dad mortgaged the house; Mom took the first job of her married life; I entered one of America’s top prep schools for 8th grade.

    The big differnce was something no-one has mentioned on your show: the quality of the teachers was 10 times better in private school; the classes were much smaller. (Then, I loved school, because kids are to learning as sharks are to eating).

    Later on, in college, I tutored fellow Computer Science students in English: they couldn’t write a paragraph or a simple outline. I was told by every professor that freshman year in college was simply remedial high school.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      I had some teachers in private schools that I would bet were as good as the ones you had in private school!
         Yes, I had some that were should have been doing almost anything else!
         Your age and mine are close! 
          Some of those great teachers were in Tennessee, and some were in Indiana.
         My children had a similiar experience, with great teachers, and some that would have made better drafters!
         Tenure doesn’t mean that you can’t fire teachers.  Tenure means that you have to prove that the teacher needs to be elsewhere.  Most administrators don’t do the proper work to accomplish this.

    • Ebreen123

      thats the saddest thing ive ever read DX… i.. i love u;(

    • J Berwick

      Truancy hurts us all, Mcsquirmy

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KO62FOZ6ETDKNPRE62OOU64BFE Patrick

    Although i appreciate the hard work of the staff at Englewood, to compare them to other Chicago schools and to claim that the success of the students is because of the staff is intellectually dishonest. 

    Englewood students succeed because Englewood is getting students who want to succeed. Englewood is a charter school which requires students be in good standing at their current grade school and which requires them to apply to Englewood.  If Englewood’s students were randomly selected from the population around the school I doubt their numbers would be nearly as high as they are.

    If you truly want success look to the Ypsilanti study on early childhood education. You must change the child’s environment at an early age in order to be successful.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      More LOADED statistics? 
          Charter schools are sold by saying that they will do a BETTER job than public schools? 
          Charter schools get the BEST students in an area?  Then brag about having the best results, with HIGHER costs per student?
         MANY sucessful options exist for public schools, that would ACTUALLY bring the educational sucess level of public schools up, for FAR less money than replacing public schools with charter schools!

      • Modavations

        This hysterical lady doesn’t give a hoot about people.She’s a prime example of Lenin’s useful idiots.She never saw a tax she didn’t want to increase,nor a govt.program to which she disagreed.Here’s what Terry said about the twenty thousand, shovel ready,high paying Pipe line jobs.I’ll paraphrase.Well Moda,well Moda 20,000 jobs is no big deal…..And where was it that I called for Censorship.I asked for proof,but instead the Fire Bug has given me nothing but the sounds of crickets.

        • todd hoopers

          the 20,000 figure was expounded by guess who: TransCanada to sell the pipeline itself. Far better estimates the Cornell Global Labor Institute pegged it at 3,000 tops, many temporary. The whole thing was a huge carnard. Don’t confuse your insipid bitterness at any form of government for our endorsement for all of it.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            What I said was that TransCanada admitted that it was more like 13,000 man/years of jobs, and that THAT was NOT as big of a deal as the 20,000 TransCanada first said.    NOT the crap above, that you replied to!
             

          • Ebreen123

            your name is silly

        • Ebreen123

          thats not wat your mom said last night

  • jbr

    I dropped out of high school at 16 so that I could attend college. I dropped out not because I was poor or unintelligent, but because our education system is seriously flawed. I was not being challenged and cared little for memorization. My high school spent more money on football, and sports in general, than truly beneficial educational aims. While high schools tout their student centered policies, teaching to the lowest denominator, or focusing solely on standardized tests does nothing for the students. I was told that I would do nothing in life with a GED. I have long ago proven those who said that absolutely wrong. I started college early, attended an ivy league graduate school, and have earned my terminal degree. I do my best every day to encourage, and challenge, my students to be active in their own education. Unfortunately, high schools do very little to prepare students for college and all of this matters very little if the student has parents who are absent as an important part of their education. I was fortunate enough to have a parent who who encouraged me to continue my education beyond the classroom and, above all, beyond rote knowledge. It is ultimately up to the student to engage and be an active and contributing member of their education.

    • Toast with legs

      thats really silly silly boy… ur just like the guy in the middle:/

  • Michele

    Why not implement what Indiana has done?  If a student doesn’t graduate from high school, then they cannot obtain a driver’s license. It has very effectively decreased the percentage of drop-outs in that State.

    • Ebreen123

      i see u

  • todd hoopers

    These comments are amazingly dumb, telling people to drop out of school and work asap to save you tax money? How uselessly selfish, what bad policy. Getting rid of welfare drives people to crime, it doesn’t make businesses sprout out of the ground and absorb the community, it doesn’t make parents who don’t give a damn give a damn. Save these 50s stereotypes for your Klan rally/CPAC.

    • Greyman

      Quite apparently, public education and welfare programs don’t make parents who don’t give a damn give a damn, either. What stereotypes are you relying on?

  • Akfakka

    Why is that the States have to bare the  burden? The parents are the people who are responsible for their children, if the parents can’t manage their children, they should not have children in the first place!! For cry out loud, there are already 7 billions people in the world, and who knows how many children
    need help, why produce any more useless children?

    Think about it before you want to have kid(s). 

  • White Rabbit

    As a former high school dropout who is thriving in life 16 years later, I was incredibly frustrated by many of the generalizations and condescending stereotypes about dropouts that were voiced during this show. I would like to offer a few insights from my own experience that might help shed some light for others.

    To put it bluntly, my Chicago Public High School completely and thoroughly let me down. I was an honor roll student in the prestigious IB program when I arrived for my freshman year. I was also a victim of severe ongoing child abuse that had never been detected by adults, and I was also exposed to escalating, life-threatening domestic violence between my parents. The violence escalated out of control early into my freshman year, requiring police intervention for the first time. Subsequent to a number of murder attempts by my father against my mother, as well as threats and vicious attacks against us kids, I was an emotional wreck. I started skipping classes – something I had never done before. When I was finally called in to answer for my behavior, the social worker that I met with DID NOT BELIEVE ME (despite the availability of police records of my father’s arrests), and she accused me of “projecting.” I wasn’t particularly inclined to reach out to any other adults for help after THAT experience. I continued struggling emotionally – I slept 12-15 hours per day, which caused me to miss many classes. I also stayed with various friends most nights of the week in order to avoid the violence at home, which was also not conducive to maintaining my class schedule, especially not in the rigorous IB program. I eventually stopped going to school altogether. No other adult ever tried to reach out to me or offer help – instead, I was repeatedly sent to in-school suspension and treated as a deviant. Mind you, I never drank, I never smoked, and I never touched drugs. My only problem was depression, anxiety, fear, and the fact that I was pseudo-homeless. At the time, my entire life had derailed, and the adults that could have helped me completely dropped the ball.

    How many other troubled students are discarded this way? I was a straight-A honors kid with a spotless record before things blew up at home. Yet, as soon as I started missing classes, I was treated like a worthless deviant who didn’t warrant any real human care. While I understand that administrators are often overwhelmed, I look back and I see absolutely no excuse for what happened to me, and my anger has hardly subsided with time.

    I moved into an apartment with a friend as soon as I turned 18, and I have been
    working to support myself ever since. I am grateful every day for the solid education I received as long as I was in school — I am currently a successful manager in a
    high profile unit of a Fortune 100 corporation. Frankly, I am sick of hearing people attribute my success to some freakishly unique personal talent — flattering as that may be, the truth is, they tell themselves that because my success flies in the face of the oh-so-ridiculous-yet-prevalent stereotype that all dropouts are stupid and lazy.

    In response to those who endlessly beat the drum about how people cannot succeed without a high school education, I cry foul. Yes, it is much more difficult to succeed without a high school diploma, but it is not nearly as impossible as many people emphatically insist. Also, the stereotype that all dropouts are to some extent dumb and/or lazy is offensive. Until we can find a way to get more kids to stay in school, can we AT LEAST stop insulting people and instilling hopelessness?? I’ve met far too many fellow dropouts, and also people who simply never finished college, who just gave up and settled in life because so many people told them that was all they could ever hope for — it’s maddening!!

    • Slipstream

      That is really interesting, thanks for sharing your story.  But it is hard to know what the adults in your school and community could have done for you.  Were you open with people about what was happening?  There are shelters and foster homes and things like that.  If your parents marriage is going to hell and your father and mother are actually on the verge of killing each other, it is going to hurt, no matter what!  Please don’t think I’m trying to dismiss what you went thru, that is not what I mean to do.

      • Ebreen123

        slipstream huh how about i slipstream my dick into your mouth

    • STUVON5000

      I do not think you will ever read this but I felt like writing it anyway.I am currently 17 years old living in Pilsen (by Damen).I am a high school drop out and am hoping to get my GED in time to enroll for fall classes.I did not have anything terribly wrong with my upbringing but it was not perfect. My mother has mental health issues and used to drink, my step dad was less than there for me so I never was really “OK”.In my freshman year I was living with my stepdad and his new girlfriend as well as her 3 kids.I wanted so badly to be seen or heard but was shunned. The only people that would talk to me were my stepdad and 1 of her kids, I lived with them for my entire 8th grade year and said less than what I will right to you know.I was the type of brilliant mind that every one took pity on and hung their heads for but never helped me.In my freshman year I was attending Whitney M. Young I had just finished 2 years with perfect (100 percent tile) ISAT scores and straight A’s. Than 1 morning I woke up to my stepdad hitting me and yelling that I never went to school (I was late for class and apparently his girlfriend told him I always slept late and never went to school,he left at 4:00 in the morning most days). I got angry and let my anger go, for all the things he let her say about me, all the things he made me do so everyone else could live easier and all the times he left me with no choice but to stay on the streets to hide from the torture of the one place I could call my home. I hit him and as a 6’3” teenager blinded by rage I hurt him (he was 54 at the time, strong and fit but none the less 54). I was forced to move in with my mother after 3 weeks of living on the streets but school got worse and worse and 1 day a teacher made a very snide comment about how “A Mexican with my background surely couldn’t make it anywhere and I should just drop out”.I never went back (the 2 years following that are a blur of bad friendships and alcohol) I have finally gotten back on track and for about 9 months now been trying to surround myself with good people. I am finally ready to take the GED, I plan to go to a community college for 2 years, transferring to     U of I after for another 2 years and than hopefully go to Harvard for medicine. The thing is I have been in position to take this GED for awhile I have studied everything I could, taken practice test after practice test but I am to afraid to take this final step and I just do not know what to do at this point. I have an amazing friend and girlfriend supporting me but neither of them really understands the looks given to someone like me or the things said or especially the fear of failing. All I can really ask is, is it possible to do something after this and is the dream of becoming an anesthesiologist far gone? I am afraid I will never take this step because I am so afraid of failing and wasting all my time, hearing an interviewer from Harvard saying the same words as my teacher.

  • White Rabbit

    I was one of those kids. My parents were violent towards me and each other. It would have changed my entire life if I could have lived somewhere stable while finishing high school.

    • White Rabbit

      Sorry – I’m a newbie here. This was supposed to be a reply to a comment further down the thread.

    • Ebreen123

      white rabbit meet brown bear now ur dead

  • Slipstream

    I have to say that on balance I support this, at least up until age 17, maybe not 18.  Unfortunately this will probably result in more tracking at schools, as the 17 year-olds who are heading for college will of necessity be studying more challenging materials than the 17 year-olds who have been pressured to stick around until they are 18.  Staying in school will probably be good for the families of these young people, and for their social development even if the educational gains may prove to be minimal.  But where, Mr. President, is the funding going to come from?  This will require more classes and more counsellors.  

    • Ebreen123

      no

  • Ebreen123

    im ganna grape u in the mouth

    • Ebreen123

      dont shoot that meat loaf

      • J Berwick

        But it’s Saturday!

        • Ebreen123

          your saturday!

  • Ebreen123

    this cosmic dance of bursting decadence and withheld permissions twists all our are collectively but if sweetness can win and it can then i will still be here tomorrow to high five you yesterday my friend…peace

  • Ebreen123

    josh if u read this we must stay in contact with this

  • Gust

    i think that forcing kids to stay in school is ridicules. i dropped out my softmore year. i have a job.. and on my way finishing college as a graphic designer. i’m also engaged and have a nice home.. stereotyping people like that is rude. i dropped out because i couldn’t keep up with school work and the stress i was undergoing. so i dropped out. while its true dropping out can make life more difficult i don’t believe its raising the age to drop out that’s going to fix the problem. its the problems in the home and the stresses that is having to be dealt with on a day to day that need to be fixed. or giving kids who drop out more options for their new life on there own.. stop making it so hard for them to get a job and fix their life. im not saying hand everything to them on a silver plater… but its ridicules that you have to try so hard to fix what your parents shouldn’t have broken. people assume that if u drop out then your automatically a loser in society. dropping out doesn’t mean you cant succeed in life. if we just gave drop outs more motivation to complete their goals instead of beating them down because society deems a drop out worthless. 

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Aug 1, 2014
A close up of newspaper front pages focusing on the Ebola outbreak, including a newspaper, left, reading 'Burn all bodies' in the city of Monrovia, Liberia, Thursday, July 31, 2014. The worst recorded Ebola outbreak in history surpassed 700 deaths in West Africa. (AP)

Israel-Gaza conflict heats up. The House votes to sue Obama. Ebola spreads in Africa. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Aug 1, 2014
In this Wednesday, Oct. 23, 2013 file photo, Luis Mendez, 23, left, and Maurice Mike, 23, wait in line at a job fair held by the Miami Marlins, at Marlins Park in Miami. Increasingly, potential employers are turning to digital content as a way to judge job-seekers before they even apply. (AP)

They see you when you’re sleeping. They know when you’re awake. Employers move to digital assessment in hiring, firing and promotion. We’ll check in.

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Aug 1, 2014
In this Wednesday, Oct. 23, 2013 file photo, Luis Mendez, 23, left, and Maurice Mike, 23, wait in line at a job fair held by the Miami Marlins, at Marlins Park in Miami. Increasingly, potential employers are turning to digital content as a way to judge job-seekers before they even apply. (AP)

They see you when you’re sleeping. They know when you’re awake. Employers move to digital assessment in hiring, firing and promotion. We’ll check in.

 
Aug 1, 2014
A close up of newspaper front pages focusing on the Ebola outbreak, including a newspaper, left, reading 'Burn all bodies' in the city of Monrovia, Liberia, Thursday, July 31, 2014. The worst recorded Ebola outbreak in history surpassed 700 deaths in West Africa. (AP)

Israel-Gaza conflict heats up. The House votes to sue Obama. Ebola spreads in Africa. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

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