90.9 WBUR - Boston's NPR news station
Top Stories:
PLEDGE NOW
Week In The News: Romney Wins N.H., Killing In Iran, Marines Investigated

Romney on a roll and the charge of “vulture capitalism.” Assassination in Tehran. U.S. Marines in trouble. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney surrounded by his family points towards supporters at the Romney for President New Hampshire primary night victory party at Southern New Hampshire University in Manchester, N.H., Tuesday, Jan. 10, 2012. (AP)

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney surrounded by his family points towards supporters at the Romney for President New Hampshire primary night victory party at Southern New Hampshire University in Manchester, N.H., Tuesday, Jan. 10, 2012. (AP)

A big Mitt Romney victory in New Hampshire this week – and “vulture capitalism” charges from Republicans looking to take down the GOP primary frontrunner on his way to South Carolina. Rush Limbaugh is apoplectic. In Tehran, another motorcycle bomb assassination of an Iranian nuclear scientist. Iran blames Israel and the U.S. Tension, up.

On YouTube, for the world to see, a shameful video of U.S. Marines urinating on dead Taliban fighters. Is that who we are?

This hour, On Point: from New Hampshire to Helmand, our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Bryan Monroe, editor of CNNPolitics.com.

David Corn, Washington bureau chief for Mother Jones.

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

New York Times “As arguments flare in Israel and the United States about a possible military strike to set back Iran’s nuclear program, an accelerating covert campaign of assassinations, bombings, cyberattacks and defections appears intended to make that debate irrelevant, according to current and former American officials and specialists on Iran.”

Poltico
“The change comes following three days of stumbling responses from Romney and campaign aides, who admit they were caught unprepared for the explosion of Bain as the dominant topic of the Republican race — “out of nowhere,” one adviser said. And it comes as Romney is aiming to turn his polling lead into a primary win — an early-state hat trick they hope will quickly establish him as the presumptive GOP nominee.”

Wall Street Journal “Pentagon officials went into overdrive Thursday in a bid to prevent a controversial video, which appears to show a group of Marines urinating on militants’ corpses, from turning the Afghan public against the U.S. war effort.”

 

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • Michiganjf

    ROMNEY’S BAIN ACQUIRED AMERICAN COMPANIES… a calculation was then undertaken about how the most profit could be made:

    1)Dismantle the company and sell all the assets, then take a massive tax write-off that eliminates any taxes on profits from the sale AND THEN SOME… the “and then some” means the tax write-off is large enough to extend to other earnings beyond the sale of the liquidated assets from the now defunct company

    THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF “VULTURE CAPITALISM”

    This option is indiscriminate about whether or not a company can be salvaged and returned to profitability… it is indiscriminate about the blood and sweat that went into creating a decent American company… it is indiscriminate about the lost jobs and the loss to the community.

    2.)Restructure the company and return it to profitability, then sell the company for a profit or retain the company as a profitable holding

    This second option can be brutal and can cost jobs, but it can also save jobs and keep a good company in a community, with all the attendant benefits to that community

    When people call Romney’s Bain “Vulture Capitalism,” they are referring to the fact that Bain was not in the business of saving salvageable American companies, but rather it was in the business of profit and was thus only concerned with squeezing the most profit from a venture… if that meant destroying a good company, jobs, someone’s life work, and something of value in a community, SO BE IT!

    THE REPUBLICANS WHO CALL ROMNEY A “VULTURE CAPITALIST,” LIKE GINGRICH AND PERRY, are suffering from a bout of HONESTY, accidentally leveling with the American people and telling them the truth for a change.

    This insane lapse of subterfuge shows what these people REALLY think and KNOW IN THEIR HEARTS about what is good for the country AS OPPOSED TO what is good for a few ultra-wealthy individuals who can take advantage of skewed LAWS PAID AND LOBBIED FOR BY THE RICH… laws which give massive tax write-offs to those who can afford to buy salvageable companies and dismantle them because the bottom line will work out better for them that way- BECUASE OF THE TAX WRITE-OFF THAT MORE THAN COVERS PROFITS FROM THE COMPANY’S LIQUIDATION!!!!

    This is just one more example in which laws are skewed for the rich BY THE RICH, and work AGAINST the interest of American communities and hard-working Americans!!

    After all, the tax laws could easily favor ALWAYS SAVING a salvageable company over dismantling it, instead of the other way around… but then the wealthy and their money would be tied to that company, and the Romney types generally aren’t interested in the hard work of running a company, but rather are interested in the quickest way to an easy buck!

    Romney and his pals exemplify the screwed up laws which the RICH have written for themselves in our country… laws which have eliminated jobs in America and put ever a larger percentage of the American Pie in the hands of the few who now benefit from the laws and politicians they have bought to rig the game.

    For more information about the ways in which the wealthy have rigged the American system of Government and “Capitalism” to their benefit… and to the detriment of most Americans… listen to On Point’s fine November segment on “DIRTY POLITICS AND BIG MONEY.”

    http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/11/17/dirty-politics-and-big-money

    Romney should have his beach-front homes, private jet, and ten vacations a year… BUT THE MAN DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE PRESIDENT OF A COUNTRY HE DEEMS POCKETABLE!!!!

    • Still Here

      To quote someone you think impressive, you are a moron.

      • Anonymous

        I see the extremist has to lower itself to name calling.

    • JP

      Excellent!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      That wouldn’t be as profitable for the Capitalists, who’s god is PROFIT!

  • Newton Whale

    Romney,  in an interview with MSNBC’s Chuck Todd: “I doubt it,” when asked about releasing his tax return, and adding, according to a transcript: “I don’t intend to release the tax returns.”

    Why Mitt wants to be president. And why he refuses to release his tax returns.‏

    No industry has taken better advantage of the business interest exclusion than private equity investors like Bain Capital, which is Republican presidential frontrunner Mitt Romney’s former firm. Private equity is actually a misnomer, since the modus operandi of those investors is no different than the leveraged buyout firms that pioneered junk-bond financing in the 1980s. Private equity firms generally finance anywhere from 60 to 90 percent of their purchases with borrowed cash. Interest payments on those debts are treated just like any other expense, and are therefore deductible from earnings.President Obama has focused his efforts on repealing the so-called carried interest loophole, which allows private equity investors to pay taxes on earnings at a lower capital gains rate.The business interest deduction distorts economic activity, according to a report issued last year by the Joint Committee on Taxation. It encourages companies to raise capital through debt rather than equity, since returns to stockholders – dividends – come out of after-tax profits (and then are taxed again as part of recipients’ individual tax returns). Payments to bondholders, on the other hand, is a deduction from earnings.Moreover, many of those interest payments are never taxed, since many of the buyers of bonds from highly leveraged firms are pension funds, which do not pay taxes on income generated by their bond holdings. And if a company uses the debt proceeds to invest in tax-exempt or tax-reduced activities – like oil drilling, for instance – the deduction can be used to offset other earnings that are taxed at higher rates, thus allowing the issuer to use debt payments to lower their overall tax rate.“Executives receive enormous returns for very modest increases in performance…. They don’t have any skin in the game. Downside shocks are absorbed by creditors.”http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2012/01/09/Private-Equitys-Edge-Buy-Now-Deduct-Taxes-Later.aspx#page1

    • Still Here

      Original, vault copy of Certificate of Live Birth in the USA — Not Released (1 version hidden in Hawaii, Original found in Kenya)Certificate of Live Birth — Released – Proven Counterfeit (www.ObamaFiles.com)Obama/Dunham marriage license — Not releasedSoetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not releasedSoetoro adoption records — Not releasedFransiskus Assisi School School application — ReleasedPunahou School records — Not releasedSelective Service Registration — Released – Proven CounterfeitOccidental College records — Not releasedPassport (Pakistan) — Not releasedColumbia College records — Not releasedColumbia thesis — Not releasedHarvard College records — Not releasedHarvard Law Review articles — None (maybe 1, Not Signed)Baptism certificate — NoneMedical records — Not releasedIllinois State Senate records — None (Locked up to prohibit public view)
      Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost (All other Illinois state senators’ records are intact)Law practice client list — Not releasedUniversity of Chicago scholarly articles — None

      • Newton Whale

        “Still Here” and still unable to deal with the fact that Americans elected Obama “decisively” with 365-173 electoral votes:

        Obama Sweeps to Historic Victory

        WASHINGTON — Sen. Barack Obama was elected the nation’s first African-American president, defeating Sen. John McCain decisively Tuesday as citizens surged to the polls in a presidential race that climaxed amid the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. 

        http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122581133077197035.html 

        BTW, what the Wall Street Journal called “the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression” was brought to us by 8 years of He Whose Name must Not Be Mentioned during which time Republicans controlled the House, the Senate and the White House for 6 years.

        • Still Here

          Ignoring for a moment the widespread voter fraud in 2008 and the 2010 elections where his socialist agenda was roundly rejected, why is it that Democruds only have to come up with some documents and yet you expect greater scrutiny of Repubs. His taxes are between him and the IRS. 

          You seem to have a problem with the tax code.  Romney isn’t currently an elected official or an IRS bureaucrat so your protest is dramatically misplaced.

          • TFRX

            Voter fraud? Especially “widespread”?

            Keep beating that dead horse, cowboy.

          • nj

            “socialist agenda”

            Life is pretty interesting here on Earth. Stop by sometime and check it out.

      • TFRX

        Yeah, I’m guilty of not reading this post of yours before I responded to your Voter fraud claptrap. No point trying to reason with you.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Are ALL of Rush Limbaugh’s private records made completely public?  Glen Beck’?  Mitt Romney’s?   What about ‘W’s?  They fought to keep ‘W’s ‘millitary’ records private, expecially his AWOL drunk records!

    • TFRX

      IOKIYAR, from a mainstream media who didn’t worry their pretty little heads about Dick “Sheer Heart Attack” Cheney’s medical records.

  • JustSayin

    Hey OnPoint. This could be a future program: Americans Elect is a nonpartisan nonprofit whose only mission is to let the American people directly nominate their choice for president.  http://www.americanselect.org/

    Maybe get these people on and ask a few questions….

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    The USA is doing to IRAN what it did to Japan to start WWII: forcing it into war.

    The constant threats and sanctions from USA and Israel,  has been forcing Iran to spend it resources on building up its defense force to protect itself.

    And now a catch 22 with the IEAE, which Iran is cooperating, to which they are voluntarily submitting the identity of its own nuclear scientists – only to have the spies in the IEAE turn the info over to the Mossad and CIA to have them assassinated.    

    So now the Iranian people are pushing for their government to expel the IEAE and their spies, which will give the USA a reason to attack Iran for non-cooperation with nuclear inspections.

    Face it USA. Your most profitable industry is war and its associated security requirements. Most americans are under the illusion they have been in perpetual war for decades because they are spreading democracy.

    • nj

      “War is the health of the state.” (Randoph Bourne)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    If you think Marines peeing on dead people defending their own cultures and country is an isolated incident,  you are grossly mistaken.  

    These Marines are the same kids that ripped the wings off a flies, tormented frogs, and bullied kids in the schoolyard – a gross lack of humanity, respect and most importantly a lack of focus and purpose.

    I notice in the video, no weapons by the body,  just a wheelbarrow.  Apparently these were citizen-farmer terrorists (like the Minutemen)???

    • nj

      Piss on dead folks, and the Lords of War Mongering have conniptions. Kill some civilians with remote drones…eh, no big deal; “collateral damage,” “We highly regret the loss.”

      These noble warriors will soon find jobs as cops in a local town near you.

      http://gawker.com/5875468/piss-on-war

      “Do you know what is worse than having your dead body urinated upon? Being killed. Being shot. Being bombed. Having your limbs blown off. Having your house incinerated by a drone-fired missile that you don’t see until it explodes. Having your children blown up in their beds. Having your spouse killed. Having your hometown destroyed. Being displaced. Becoming a refugee. Having your entire life destroyed as a consequence of political forces far, far beyond your control.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Loring-Palmer/100000673381066 Loring Palmer

        Yes, nj, and where is the justice? Who will get a slap on the wrist, the urinating Marines, the video taper, or the person who released the video to Youtube?  Take the case of Pvt. Manning.  Among the data he released to WikiLeaks, was the video of an American helicopter crew pissing bullets and killing a group of unarmed civilians below, including 2 Reuters employees. This was murder and a war crime. And was the helicopter crew punished? No. But we see the plight of the whistle-blower, Pvt. Manning.

        • nj

          It will be telling to see what the sentences are for Mr. Manning vs. the urinators.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          From a chopper, in combat, the telephoto lense of the camera, could EASILY be mistaken for a weapon pointed at them! 

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Loring-Palmer/100000673381066 Loring Palmer

            Terry tree tree:  please review the video again and listen to the correspondence between the chopper gunner and command, and you’ll hear the gunner pleading to shoot with no mention of any perceived threat to them or the innocent men on the ground. This was no mistake. This shooter wanted blood.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            If I missed that, I’m sorry. 

    • SteveV

      You’re right to a point, that being it isn’t just the schoolyard bullies who are
      capable of this behavior. Being an Army vet I remember bayonet training,
      screaming “What’s the spirit of the bayonet? – KILL!!”, over and over again. The
      purpose of such training is to take an “average” young kid to the point he will
      not see the “enemy” as a person but as an object to destroy, to “un civilize”
      him. And the USMC takes that training to the ultimate level. So who’s to blame?
      These soldiers or a society that trains them, provides them with lethal weapons,
      and makes them heros for killing other human beings (as long as we can label
      them the “enemy”)? It doesn’t surprise me that incidents like this happen, it
      would surprise me if they didn’t.

  • Jasoturner

    Krugman hit it today, Tom.  Please refer to his column and his observation that running a business and running a country are very different things.  Romney’s claim to fame is, let face it, probably not terribly relevant as to whether or not he’d be a decent president.

    • Still Here

      Business is the solution to our economic problem.  He’s had more executive experience in government than the current office holder. Finally, being a community organizer apparently doesn’t prepare one for anything.

      • Jasoturner

        I said nothing about community organizers, nor did Krugman.

        Your first assertion is pithy, but not, as far as I know, the universal or even majority sentiment of trained economists when thinking about national economic matters.  Our economy is not a for profit venture, and the motivations and insights to manage it are much different.

        He was my governor in MA.  He was just okay.  And he entered office when the economy was booming.  He basically had to do no harm.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Booming?  There was a $3B shortfall.  All the politicians and pundits claimed the only solution was massive increase in broad based taxes.

          • Jasoturner

            The business environment was quite good.  If Weld, Celluci and Swift left a shortfall, that is a different issue.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Don’t you remember, we had the post 9/11 recession back then?

          • Jasoturner

            You couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting a construction crane back then.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        The ‘business experience’ , several failed companies that he profitted personally from, with ONLY the sports team that government money built a new stadium for, made ‘W’ so good for the country that he took us from a Budget Surplus he acknowledged, to $TRILLIONS in DEBT, proves your point?

      • Anonymous

        The problem is that some “business” is the REASON for our economic downfall.  Facing that undeniable fact and figuring out what to do about it is the abiding question facing our country and capitalism in general.

        • Still Here

          I guarantee you we’ve learned over the last 3 years that growing the size of government is not the solution, but that’s all Obama can come up with to serve his public union masters.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Romney has a deep resume.  Bain is an important part.  It takes leadership to build a team and have success in business.  He was also a successful governor during a time of economic crisis.  He also led the SLC Olympics turnaround.  I would hire him in a minute to help turn around the country.

      You might like Obama’s politics but his resume was extraordinarily thin.  He had no executive experience and it shows.

      • Jasoturner

        Obama’s politics have nothing to do with Krugman’s points.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Respectfully, Krugman is wrong about many things including this.

          Specifically, Romney’s business experience shows his leadership skills and team building skills.  Critical skills for a President.  Further, the business he was in, starting new business and turning around failing businesses, gives him unique incites into tax policies and regulations that are impeding business growth.  He will be able to quickly prioritize reforms to boost our economic growth quickly.  It has nothing to do with reading a balance sheet.

          He had to work with an 85% democrat legislature.  He was able to accomplish reforms by merging departments and creating efficiencies in state government.  He was only able to do that by working with the other side during a fiscal crisis.

          His skills are uniquely suited to our current woes.

      • nj

        News flash! The country is not a business. 

  • Jasoturner

    Matthew Kroenig tries to argue in the latest Foreign Affairs that it would be wise and timely to attack Iran’s nuclear assets.  I do not find his argument overly compelling, but I find it striking that he was a Special Advisor to the Secretary of Defense.  There is some serious discussion of the military option apparently, at high levels in the government.

  • Jasoturner

    I think the source of some of the egregious conduct by junior military personnel over the past decade or so has to do with a fundamental lack of guiding principle.  These kids are told they are “heroes” and that they are “protecting the homeland” and are then thrown into an environment of chaos with no geopolitical understanding of why (let alone whether) they are putting their lives at risk.  Eventually, when all you see is apparent irrationality all around you, and no understanding why, your humanity slips away.

    I guess a simpler way to say it is that these kids were not professionals.  But how can you be a professional if your superiors do not articulate the goals and the broad strategy to achieve those goals?  They were deployed as pawns, and the inevitable happened.  That does not excuse it, but it certainly makes it unsurprising.

  • nj

    Some of the news On Point won’t bother to mention in order to make room for endless regurgitation of Republican Clown Posse antics…

    FAA/DOT sued for information on domestic drone authorization:

    https://www.eff.org/press/releases/who-flying-unmanned-aircraft-us

    “Dozens of companies and research organizations are working to develop even more sophisticated drones, so their use is poised for a dramatic expansion in the coming years. Meanwhile, news reports indicate that the FAA is studying ways to integrate more drones into the national airspace because of increased demand from federal, state, and local governments. EFF’s lawsuit asks for immediate response to our FOIA request, including the release of data on any certificates and authorizations issued for unmanned aircraft flights, expired authorizations, and any applications that have been denied.”

    Frightening update on drone capability and current deployment:

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/01/drones-are-watching-you

  • Ed

    The Vatican has announced the pope’s planned trip in late March to Cuba and to Leon, Mexico. Cuba had an open air procession for our Lady of Cobre, the national image of Mary. Things are changing, perhaps. John Paul visited Mexico but never Leon.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The pope will be looking for new VICTIMS of Child-Molesting and Child-Abusing church?

  • Ehelmrich

    Four Catholic bishops are among the 39 American religious leaders who have joined in a public statement cautioning against the legal recognition of same-sex marriage.
    “Altering the civil definition of ‘marriage’ does not change one law, but hundreds, even thousands, at once,” notes the statement released by the religious leaders on January 12. The statement warns that legal acceptance of same-sex unions will quickly lead to pressures on, and lawsuits against, religious bodies. “Even where religious people and groups succeed in avoiding civil liability in cases like these,” the statement predicts, “they would face other government sanctions–the targeted withdrawal of government cooperation, grants or other benefits.”
    The statement is signed by Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York, the president of the US bishops’ conference; and by Bishops Salvatore Cordileone of Oakland, William Lori of Bridgeport, and Kevin Rhoades of Fort Wayne—all chairmen of episcopal committees involved with marriage and religious freedom. Also signing the statement were leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Assemblies of God, the Salvation Army, and the National Association of Evangelicals, along with representatives of Orthodox Judaism.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The priests don’t want their VICTIMS to be able to force them to marry them?  They have made thousands of same-sex ‘unions’, of an illegal nature, AGAINST their own stated pricicples, and STILL hide them!

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    Voter fraud in NH!

    Did you see the undercover journalists successfully getting ballots of dead people in NH?  All because they don’t check photo IDs.

    I show my ID to purchase a six pack.  I should have to show ID to vote.

    • Exarchlemon

      You mean that stooge O’Keefe? Yeah. I’ll raise a beer to that apparatchik being prosecuted for his stupidity.

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Whoever did it exposed a flaw in the system and that is a public service.

        Just last week an audit of the votes in SC last cycle showed 800 votes by dead people.

        • guest

          It was also against the law – The NH AG is planning on charging them with voter fraud which is a felony. Idiots & stooges. 

    • nj
      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Classic.  When you don’t like the message you attack the messenger.

        • nj

          James O’Keefe is not a journalist.

        • Anonymous

          I’m not aware of any “story ” he broke that did not turn out to be a fabrication.  He’s a propagandist, not a journalist.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          O’Keefe admitted that he mis-represented his ‘interview with ACORN!  That is NOT journalism!

    • TFRX

      So, let’s prosecute O’Keefe and his stooges.

      He’s made his point: Young white twerps are not to be trusted with suffrage.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      O’Keefe ADMITTED to ‘making the results fit his aims for his ‘story’.  NOT JOURNALISM!

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Journalism isn’t the issue.  The issue is the integrity of the voting process?
        What about the audit in South Carolina where they discovered 800 dead votes in the last election?

        What is wrong with closing loopholes to improve the integrity of the voting process?

        Personally I think photo IDs should be required.  Several states instituted photo IDs before the 2008 election and studies showed there was no suppression of votes.

          I don’t understand the resistance unless you are in favor of potential fraud.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          IF it is made easy and low-cost, or no-cost to those that still need them!  I have no problem with requiring a valid picture ID for voting.
             The frauds perpetrated against voters in 2000 and 2004 against voters in Florida and Ohio need to be prosecuted!  Expecially to the U.S. Millitary absentee voters!

    • Fredlinskip

      Facts seem to indicate that voter fraud is not much of a problem, certainly not widespread, in America.
       
          Suppression of votes, the possibility of tampering with electronic voting machines, and redistricting are all greater potential threats to our democracy.

      IMO

      But after a few beers, I suppose it’s easy to imagine a massive voter fraud conspiracy going on out there.

    • Alan

      Easy there, worried. The number of incidents of NH vote fraud are very few and far between, and even less when undercover journalists aren’t committing them. The issue isn’t so much that a photo ID is a bad idea, as that it can be hard to come by for a number of citizens. As long as everyone who wants to vote can get one easily and free of charge, I have no issue with requiring it. I, too, have to show ID when I buy a bus ticket.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        A BUS ticket?  ID?  Things have CHANGED!

  • Still Here

    Obama’s government should accelerate permitting procedures for oil and natural gas projects and immediately clear TransCanada’s Keystone XL pipeline to spur economic growth. Our nation is on the cusp of an energy boom that is already creating hundreds of thousands of jobs, revitalizing entire communities and reinvigorating American manufacturing.  Why is Obama standing in the way? 

    • nj

      Chasing fossil fuel energy bubbles with the attendant consequences of water pollution, global warming, etc. is not a sustainable solution. Extending the Fossil Fuel Era for a few decades solves nothing, but it does make a few people and companies briefly rich.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Loring-Palmer/100000673381066 Loring Palmer

      Obama standing in the way?
      “For the first time, the top export of the United States, the worlds biggest gas guzzler, is–wait for it–fuel.” 

      This from Chris Kahn, AP, at the “Spokesman-Review,” 12/31/2011

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Trans Canada is changing their route!  Will YOU gurantee, with YOUR fortune, that ALL the oil products from these pipelines will stay in the U.S. ?  If not, why build it?  So TransCanada can pollute 30% of the U.S. fresh water?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Are YOU volunteering to eat and drink ALL the pollution from it?

  • Yar

    It amazes me that the ancient Aztecs could predict a civil war in America in 2012.  Of course this war is not about race, just as our last civil war was about freedom.  Freedom to exploit, the American way, we get what we got by taking it from others.  It is us against them, if you don’t like it then; we’ll piss on you.  We think we are a advanced democracy, we tell others how they should live, we brag about our freedom.  We are really just an out of control teenager.  This blog is getting more fractured each day,  I am not sure we even hear each other any more, but I would sure like to prove the Aztecs wrong.

    • Steve

      In response to…”I am not sure we hear eachother anymore…”

      We seem to be not even listening or thinking.

      Therefore the importance of story and parable; many questions or thoughts can only be presented obliquely with hidden truths embedded in conversation.

      • Yar

        Thanks for the reply.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    In response to Still Here – natural gas prices are at a 10 year low, oil is dropping despite the issues with Iran, US is a major gasoline exporter.

    Someday we’ll need Canadian tar sands – but not today.

    • Jasoturner

      I heard some guy on NPR say that, if the XL is not built, Canada is considering building a pipeline to their west coast, so they can ship the oil to China and India.  So that oil is going to get sold somewhere if we don’t take it.

      As for natural gas, I have read that elsewhere in the world, particularly Asia, natural gas is selling for two to three times what it costs domestically.  If our natural gas reserves become sufficiently productive that we can export liquid natural gas, it will become a higher priced global commodity, and our domestic prices will rise drastically.  Ironic, but abundance could drive prices up because of access to new, previously un-served marketplaces.

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        The fracking revolution is expanding world wide.  I don’t think we are in near term danger of domestic shortages.

        Actually, Qatar recently invested in a mammoth conventional gas, LNG facility.  They had expected to export this to the US but now they need to find other markets.

        I expect you’ll see new investments in GTL – gas to liquids due to the gut of natural gas.

      • Anonymous

        “So that oil is going to get sold somewhere if we don’t take it.”

        Here’s a scoop for you: regardless of the path it takes to the refinery, it will be sold on the open market.  If you have some evidence that tar-sand oil will be dedicated to our use, please post it for our edification.

        • Jasoturner

          It can go to American refineries, or it can go to China.  American refineries employ Americans.  Here’s a scoop for you.  Chinese refineries typically don’t employ Americans.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            That’s a little job security, for some refinery workers.  The proponents of Keystone XL talk like it’s a major part of National Energy Security, meaning the refined products would be used in the U.S.!

          • Jasoturner

            Nah, the other commentator is right, it’s a global commodity.  Let’s just hope the same thing doesn’t happen to liquid natural gas.  Because then we’re screwed – they’ll start exporting liquified shale gas to Asia for $25/decatherm instead of selling it domestically for $7!

          • Terry Tree Tree

            EXTREMELY HARD to export electricity from Wind-Turbines and Solar Panels, and other renewables, that are faster to implement, greener, will immediately employ people, and don’t pollute near as much!

  • Trevor

    Tom, gotta say that one of the most important shows you’ve done in a long time was the discussion of diverging upward mobility in the U.S. compared to countries like Denmark, Norway and Canada. I think those studies inform the conversations about the Occupy movement, tax rates, public education, and what is apparently going to be a plank of Mitt Romney’s campaign: antipathy towards Europe

    • nj

      Ditto.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Despicable Act!  What those Marines apparently did, was to act out a common phrase of derision.  Many of those phrases are used every day, many times.  Too bad that they didn’t THINK about it, before they acted it out, and messed up the rest of their lives!

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Vulture Capitalism is a serious problem here, and around the world.   It sounds like people on both sides of Bain can make their case!  That, in itself, is an indictment!   T. Boone Pickens was accused of the same in the 80′s, and made the case for both sides in his own book.

  • http://www.facebook.com/WildManBrainiac John Eller

    have a look at this graphic showing who is responsible for the behavior of the four marines
    http://www.extracreditstuff.com/Political_Themes/Four_Marines.html

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Romney says he can turn the country around, and CREATE JOBS.   WHY doesn’t he reveal his plan NOW, if it WILL do that?  His country-men-and-women are HURTING for jobs!  ONLY if we put him in the White House, will he reveal his plan?  No Patriotism?  No Heart?  No Consideration for those FAR worse off than he?   NO Plan?

    • Anonymous

      So far his plan is to tax the middle class more and the top 10 to 1% less.
      He has no real plan, except supply side economics.
       

  • guest

    “And yet, Land says: “Before we marry the guy next door, don’t “you think we ought to have a fling with a tall dark stranger and see if he can support us in the manner to which we’d like to be accustomed? And if he can’t, we can always marry the steady beau who lives next door.”

    This from religious leaders who don’t like Mitt Romney and are trying to find an alternative to his nomination. So they saying its ok to have a fling to find out if a some stranger can support you in the manner you are accostumed to before settling for the boy next door. I thought they were throughly against this sort of thing. Don’t they generally condemn women who do this harlots?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      HYPOCRICY  runs rampant in many ‘religions’!

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    Newt is full of pious baloney.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      And Perry is a dunce.

  • http://www.facebook.com/WildManBrainiac John Eller

    the story of bain in one quick-look graphic
    http://www.extracreditstuff.com/Romney/The_Story_of_Bane.html

  • nj

    Aarrrrrrrgh!!

    One more airing of drug-addled gasbag Flush Limball’s voice and i’ll never listen to On Point again!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Careful of what you say, you know they’ll air Rush, sooner or later. 
         You aren’t going to be like Rush, and make claims that you don’t live up to, are you?
          Or does Rush really live in ‘we have universal health care’ Costa Rica now?

  • Terry Tree Tree

    Rush Limbaugh is objecting to Republicans telling the truth about Republicans?  
        Rush is objecting to Republicans breaking ranks, for personal gain?
        Rush is objecting to exactly what?

    • TFRX

      I’d like to add: It’s funny that anyone considers “Rush Limbaugh is apoplectic” a newsworthy sentence.

  • Charles A. Bowsher

    Bain Capital would be renamed Bane Capital if you asked the employees and owners of the companies he trashed.

    • Still Here

      Since they are the owners, your point makes no sense. 

      • Charles A. Bowsher

        I should have said “former owners”.

  • Anonymous

    Ron Paul was the first to come to the defense of Romney when Gingrich attacked Romney, capitalism, and Bain Capital.

    Ron Paul made gave a 5 minute talk making predictions related to foreign policy and to the economy.  This was a big part of the reason Ron Paul has been dismissed as a nut – because he was saying the things in this video.  This was about 10 years ago, and he suggested we look at it in 10 years to see whether his predictions were accurate.  Here’s that video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJG_oFFDK0 

    I would like to hear what Romney would have said about Paul 10 years ago as Paul was talking about these ideas and the upcoming economic collapse – Romney certainly wasn’t backing up the guy who was proven to be correct about our economy.

    Lastly, Paul gets more support than anyone from those who act on, and see the first-hand results of, our foreign military policies.  Paul gets more support from these people than all the other candidates combined – including Obama.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    Last night Stephen Colbert transferred control of his SuperPAC to John Stewart so that he can explore the possibility of a run for President in the South Carolina primary. Can we talk about how awesome this level of political satire is?

    http://gawker.com/5875736/stephen-colbert-passes-his-super-pac-to-jon-stewart-announces-exploratory-committee-for-possible-presidential-run

    • Still Here

      I believe their 15 minutes was over long ago, plus only elitest self-indulgers have cable.

  • KayBeeStew

    This Marine video makes me so angry but not how you may think. To quote/paraphrase a movie (A Few Good Men)… American can’t handle the truth! Is America so NAIVE that they think we can train soldiers to kill and do the things necessary in the process that pissing on a corpse is a big deal? That’s why our soldiers are so messed up when they come home. There’s no such thing as polite warfare. We train the soldiers to kill and then expect them to behave like normal, moral upright citizens? That’s crazy! Warfare is dirty, nasty and about killing and demoralizing. NOT about being pretty and happy and nice to the enemy. FYI… Proudly served in the US Army for 3yrs in 3rd Armored Division. Did AIT at Ft Sam Houston near barracks for Special Forces Medics. Those kids were encouraged to misbehave and go crazy to prepare them for what they’d have to face on active duty. I could go on and on…

  • Jemimah

    More Republican lies. Very few Democrats–if any–have a problem with HOW MUCH anyone can earn.  The problem is HOW it’s done. 

  • Charles A. Bowsher

    As for that group of Marines, their motto is Simper Fe not Semper Fi.  Especially if there has to be an investigation to determine their identities.  Standing up, standing tall is about stepping forward on your own when you have done wrong as those pictured have done.  I attribute their attitudes to the countless pickups with the little Calvin looking kid peeing on Ford, Chevy and everything in sight.

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    Let’s ask the question?  Who were Bain’s customers?

    Pension funds for teachers and fire fighters, charitable endowments, 401K funds.

    These folks were pretty happy with Bain’s returns.

    • Plain old Cory

      …because the ends always justify the means.

      • nj

        You took my response.

    • Diogenes

      “These folks” are US! If you enjoy a nice pension benefit (especially government/municipal empoyee or union), or are proud of your alma mater endowment growth, you are hypocritical to criticize PE.

      I cannot speak to whether MR created jobs or not; he would not have made so much money if we was not creating value, though. And if that value is American industry inefficiency, let’s own up. If that value is b/c we all buy our t-shirts and shoes from China, we are just as much at fault. Do you shop Staples, or go find the mom&pop shop and pay premiums. C’mon, be honest!

      And can someone remind me what party the likes of Hank Paulson, Frank Raines and Barney Frank — supposed guardians of important finanical structures but who were asleep at the switch? There are bad guys on both sides of the aisle. I want smart, driven people in higher office to foment change. I believe Mitt can do this; O tried, valiantly, but he has not made much headway at all.

    • guest

      Most folks have no idea where there mutual funds are invested especially if they are being managed by others and not directly. Most Mutual funds do not dislose the individual components of the funds either. Do you really believe folks like that, if informed how they were making money, would have approved of the methods? I highly doubt it.  

      • Anonymous

        Well, people spend an awful lot of money at places like Walmart, which specializes in providing low-cost stuff by destroying US small businesses and jobs.  If you’re willing to jeopardize our economy for a cheap TV, there’s no doubt you would do so for a good return on investment.

    • Anonymous

      This whole discussion of Bain well illustrates the divergence of interest and built-in conflict between capital (especially as measured by publicly traded stocks) and labor.  The former can literally cannibalize the latter, getting fat in the process.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Who made a higher percentage of return, the ‘customers’, some of who’s jobs were eliminated, or $Millionaire CEOs and Board Members of Bain?

  • TFRX

    The last time On Point blurbed from Politico, it excerpted a meme comparing an unpopular Republican and lying about Obama’s approval ratings, suggesting they were low.

    I expect Politico to rehash crap like this every day, but this show can do better.

    More fact-checking before you blurb Politico in the future? And if picking the needle out of the haystack is too bloody an enterprise, stop blurbing Politico?

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    From today’s Boston Herald:
    “It’s about time he goes out and gets a
    job,” said Tom Stemberg, a former Bain exec who co-founded Staples with
    former Gov. Mitt Romney.
    “Newt Gingrich has been living off your and my taxpayer dollars. …
    The fact that he’s getting away with this and representing himself as
    private sector is nauseating.”

    • TFRX

      That’s saying something: The Boston Herald is turning on Newt!

      What this GOP primary needs is a Kremlinologist. It needs someone who can watch the various right-wing propaganda machines and read between the lines and look at who is sitting where on the review stand during the military parade (metaphor) and make a best guess as to what the GOP leadership thinks this very hour.

  • Anonymous

    It’s kind of curious how the GOP primary seems to have gone over the edge of nasty into viscous.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Desperate times for desperate people.

      It always seems to go low during the SC primary.

  • MarkVII88

    Doesn’t your decision all come down to who and what do you want to trust?  Do you want to trust a rich former venture capitalist or do you want to trust a rich former community organizer?  Do you want to trust that making it easier for the wealthy to accumulate wealth will benefit the country as a whole or do you want to trust that efforts to enforce equitability will benefit the country as a whole?

    • TFRX

      From my asset level I can still see a big difference between “rich” like Romney, and “rich” like Obama.

      Throw in the incredible tin ear, the absolute lack of noblesse oblige Romney shows, and therein I see the seeds of the answer to your question.

      • Still Here

        How about rich like Clinton?

        • TFRX

          Rich like when Clinton left office?

          Rich compared to how ordinary middle class he grew up rasied by a single mother and became a Rhodes scholar?

          Compared to Mittster, who inherited a lot of money from George Romney, but none of his father’s grit?

          Yeah, let’s play this game.

    • Plain old Cory

      Most of us won’t admit it, but we want whoever benefits us the most personally.

  • Anonymous

    If you are a venture capitalist, it means that you invest in various companies KNOWING that only 1 of 10 will really make money, a few more will do OK, and the rest WILL FAIL, thus costing jobs, but at the same time creating other jobs.  That is the entire point of taking risks, you do not move ahead without taking risks.  Without these investments, those companies would have failed sooner.  that is why the companies required the investment in the first place.

    However, Romney is not the right guy for president.  Paul has the best track record of being honest and correct, plus he has started his own successful business from nothing – the only entrepreneur running this year really.  So, he would be the best choice this year.

    • Original Cory

      This assumes an entrepreneur is the best choice for president.  I’d like some philosopher/philanthropist/humanitarian mixed in, in which case all the conservative candidates are disqualified.

      • TFRX

        Corporations fire loser customers all the time.

        It’s a different mindset than governing.

        And in an environment where even multiple-term Republican elected officeholders show an absolute disdain for governance, do we trust Mitt Romney to ride herd on them?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      MANY companies would have probably done ok and survived, WITHOUT a venture capatilist taking it over, and running it for the venture capitalists’ gain ONLY!

      • Still Here

        Is this your feeling or do you have some expertise we should consider?  In a competitive world, surviving doesn’t cut it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Another Knock Knock joke but the other way around.

    America: Knock Knock!!!
     
    China: Who’s there?
     
    America: It’s me America.
     
    China: America who?
     
    American: Can you lend me more money to save my economy.
     

    • nj

      Once again demonstrating that you don’t understand the K.K. joke format. Stick to your day job.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        It’s my civil liberty to have my own format on my KK Joke (you forgot add another K). You don’t dictate what I say. do you understand my right NJ? and I am not planning to be a stand up comedian.

        • nj

          And it’s my civil liberty to point out that the joke makes no sense and you look foolish when it’s clear you don’t understand the format of the K.K. joke. 

          Good thinking on your career plan, though.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            being a bully in One Point reflects your attitude in real life and if you don’t like the joke don’t read it and don’t comment about it.
            if you call me foolish again.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            At least I am a nice person in real life and in message board. your comment reflects how you treat people in life. Arrogance and Demeaning

        • Terry Tree Tree

          K.-Knock K.-Knock,  NOT KKK!   The white-sheet hypocrites aren’t funny, except when trying to make serious statements that expose their hypocricy!

  • Newton Whale

    It is NOT true that private equity firms only make money when companies create jobs. Romney’s claim that his experience at Bain means he was a job creator is a fraud:

    Rauh: Well, the discussions that are going on around private equity today are happening in a very politicized environment. On one hand you have supporters of Mitt Romney who are painting private equity as being this glorious thing where companies are bought and thousands of new jobs are being created. On the other hand you have opponents who want to paint private equity in a very negative light and argue that thousands of jobs are being destroyed. Now what that really masks is the fact that there is a huge range of activity that goes on in private equity. And academic studies have shown that — on average — the employment effects of private equity are really very small. So, on average there’s really not much evidence that private equity either creates a lot of jobs or destroys a lot of jobs.Ryssdal: Well, when private equity sends out a prospectus — or whatever they send out — do they list in there somewhere “We’re going to create jobs,” or prospectus do they say “We’re going to maximize return for our investors?”Rauh: The stated goal of private equity is always the maximization of return for investors. There is no stated objective of private equity to create jobs.http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/private-equity-job-killer-or-creatorBain managers said their mission was clear. “I never thought of what I do for a living as job creation,” said Marc B. Walpow, a former managing partner at Bain who worked closely with Romney for nine years before forming his own firm. “The primary goal of private equity is to create wealth for your investors.”http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-romney-bain-20111204,0,343872.story

    • Still Here

      Only the government believes its mantra is to enlarge itself, the rest of us have to live with limited resources.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Don’t know much about the history of U.S. Steel, General Motors, Ford Motor Company, or a HOST of other conglomerates, do you?   MANY internet firms today, have THOUSANDS of ‘affiliates’, and subsidiaries.   Does that NOT make them growing LARGER? 
           Of over 20 separate auto companies that G.M. bought, or merged with, they only have five or six active divisions today.

  • MarkVII88

    Republicans’ desires to cut taxes and reign-in spending sound good, especially for those where every dollar in their pocket makes a big difference.  But the fact is that the benefits that will be realized by the lower income earners pale in comparison to the benefits that will be realized by the wealthiest individuals and companies who also are less likely to feel the negative effects of social welfare program cuts.  One for you and one hundred for me…  Isn’t this what could be called class warfare?

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    There are thousands of high paid Staples employees here in the headquarters who would disagree with the caller’s diminishment of their jobs.

    • Newton Whale

      Thousands of “high paid” Staples employees? 
      Do you have any evidence of that are does it just “feel” true?

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Framingham isn’t too far from Newton.  I suggest a field trip.

        • Newton Whale

          There you go, making assumptions again.
          I do not live in Newton.

          And how lazy of you to suggest that others do the research to support your W.A.G. theories.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah, news flash. Not all Staples jobs are sales clerks.

  • Charles A. Bowsher

    My final comment of the day is to ask why no one is drawing the obvious contradiction between bringing Private Manning up on Court Martial charges, while Cheney contiunes to live free. Cheney committed Treason when he revealed Valerie Plames identity as a CIA operative.  That info exposed any and all other agents or facilities that Plame had contact with or used and thereby compromised numerous secret operations. I would call that aiding and abetting the enemy.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      SOOO TRUE!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lisa-A-Foster/1114181353 Lisa A. Foster

    Re. the marines video.
    We are teaching them, through these wars, to disrespect human life, and then act surprised when we they don’t. We (the American public and our Government) can not have it both ways. Is life valuable, are Muslims valuable, do they deserve respect…. or not?

  • Dpweber83

    Recent caller: “I haven’t seen the Iranians doing anything.”

    Really!  That’s strange, because lots of other people have: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

    -dan
    Boston, MA

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    Elections are much more like professional sports – rich owners and rich players do their thing while we cheer for our particular team. And when all is said and done, we walk off having watched, while the owners and players walk off with the money.

    And after the election the players are still working for their owners.

  • Ken Foster

    It should be pointed out that the jobs created at companies like Sports Authority, Domino’s Pizza and Staples are in zero-sum game retail industries. Those jobs were created at the expense of older, smaller companies that were put out of business by these national chains. Over all there would have been close to zero net jobs added. 

    • Still Here

      Think about all the buggy whip manufacturers put out of business with the advent of cars.  We should have stayed in the dark ages, though it seems like Obama’s getting us there all on his own.

      • TFRX

        Maybe your metaphor would hold water if it weren’t for all the white Republican guys who want to drag everyone back to the economic freedom of the 1890s and the (largely imagined, largely TV-invented) social nicey-ness of the 1950s.

        (PS I recognize “dark ages” as an historical metaphor, not a race thing, and treat it as such.)

      • Anonymous

        I didn’t realize that Sports Authority was the first to come up with the idea of selling sporting goods, or Domino’s had invented the concept of selling pizza to the public, etc.  What obsolete business like buggy whip makers did these successes replace?

        • Still Here

          The innovation was scale and convenience; all to consumers benefit.  Where in the public sector do you work?

          • Anonymous

            Your comparison of replacing buggy whip mfgs.to destroying main street businesses is  intellectually indefensible.  If you consider trading your job for cheaper stuff a “consumer benefit”, I would disagree.

            And I am self employed in the private sector, and the least freeloading taxpayer you could imagine, you twerp.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    iOnepoint = American Airlines is bankrupt, Bank of America 30,000 employees will be laid off soon, Friendly’s is almost gone, Home Depot is preparing for fall season and now hiring temps.

  • notfooledbyromney

    These private equity guys like to talk about how many jobs they create, and when they do, they don’t only emphasis the direct jobs, but the indirect jobs (in addition to the clerks at Staples, there’s the truck drivers delivering supplies and the donut shop wait staff serving those clerks at their coffee breaks).  They lightly dismiss the job cuts as an unfortunate consequence of the nature of business in a free market.  But they only talk about the direct job cuts.  They like to talk about how important small business is, so why don’t we press them to account for the indirect job losses of their investments?  How many small,”mom and pop” stationary stores or coffee shops do see any more?  I make a point of asking the operators of these businesses when I stop in their shop when they are having a going out of business sale, why they are closing shop.  Guess what, never  has ones said it;s becuase their taxes are too high or too much government regulation.  It’s almost always because they can’t compete with the big chains and big box stores.   I also talk with workers at the big chains, and they generally tell me that their jobs were much better when the worked at a small business. 

    • Still Here

      Too bad not enough of their customers feel the same; if so, they could have continued to pay an obscene premium at the same stationary store.

      • Anonymous

        I’m glad you can admit that free market capitalism, as practiced, has nothing to do with the goal of creating jobs in our country.  I think we’re making progress in our discussion.

  • Newton Whale

    Don’t be so quick to crown Romney:
    ANDERSON — The latest poll of South Carolina voters suggests that Mitt Romney’s lead has evaporated, leaving him in what amounts to a statistical tie with Republican rival Newt Gingrich.
    An automated survey of 776 likely voters conducted Wednesday by InsiderAdvantage found that 23.1 percent supported Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, and 21.3 percent were backing Gingrich, the former U.S. House speaker. The poll’s margin of error is plus or minus 4 percentage points.
    http://www.independentmail.com/news/2012/jan/12/poll-romney-lead-shrinking-south-carolina/

    • Anonymous

      That poll didn’t really take into account the moves after the New Hampshire contest.  The newest Poll, out minutes ago, shows Ron Paul skyrocketing to 20% in South Carolina, and Santorum going to 7%.  Paul is now closer to a tie with Gingrich for second place, and moving up FAST. (American Research Group poll.)

  • PaulCJr

    I hope we don’t have to go to war with Iran. The Bush admin racked us with enough war debt and congress will refuse to raise taxes if we do. So no war! If they close off the straight they close it off. We shouldn’t have built a transportation system so depended one type of fuel source. 

    • Still Here

      We should be cutting spending.

      • TFRX

        Sure; let’s let the GOP do it when they get into the White House. It’s a “well known media fact” that the Republican Party is FiscallyResponsible(TM).

      • Fredlinskip

        Also we need to cut corporate taxes to the level we had just before depression as Romney proposes (25%).

        We need less regulation so as to allow the possibility of occurrences such as the 07 financial collapse.

        We need to continue to deny global warming exists, because we need not care about our planet or the astronomical costs of increasing climate related disasters.

        We need to continue to deny that to pay down national debt will require any further financial sacrifice from those who can afford it.

        There should be no cuts to our National Offense budget, because our fear requires need a military budget many times that of the rest of the world combined.

        And we need to cut all programs that potentially benefit majority of Americans, because these by definition are socialist.

        Let’s make the founders and future generations proud of our wisdom and understanding of the issues that confront us.

      • PaulCJr

        Well then we don’t need to be going to war with Iran. And if Congress were really about cutting spending we would be reducing out defense budget which is bigger than any other nation in the world as well as cutting back Sr. benefits like medicare and SSI. Yet we’re not willing to do that. So let pay for them or cut them. These last three things are what are really costing us money, not some program trying to help the poor or school children. 

  • MarkVII88

    One caller to the show today I think hit the nail on the head when all the job creation numbers are thrown out there.  I don’t care how many jobs are created by any businessman or by whatever government action unless you can give me a direct comparison between these new jobs and the ones that were lost between 2008 and 2010.  What is completely missing is an analysis of the proportion of income these new jobs bring compared to the lost income of the jobs lost.  It’s one thing to get your old job back at the same pay and it’s another thing to lose a job that pays $20/hr only to be able to earn $10/hr a year or two later.

    • Still Here

      Well we all can’t work for the government.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        We can’t ALL be Vulture Capitalists, or CEOs that get $MILLIONS in BONE-USes, for bankrupting a company either.  There would be no one to put out of a job, for personal pay!

        • Bruce

          I think Mitt gives vultures a bad name. 

          Vultures perform a vital function in nature and the life cycle.  They are what they are and make no pretense about it.

          A private-equity company’s main objective is not job creation, but rather wealth creation for its investors.

          The workers whose jobs or pensions are destroyed are at best an afterthought to these company CEO’s.   

    • MirrorMirrorOnTheWall

      News Flash: The US is competing in a global market! Chinese/Indian workers previously making $1 a day are delighted to now make $5!! US consumers (70% of our GDP) buy cheap goods!!!

      And besides “us” consumers, who else caused those jobs to go away? Not Mitt, alone, for sure. Did Barney Frank allow too much “housing credit” at Fannie or Freddie, resulting in the bubble? Did Paulson/Geitner bail out too many of their Wall Street friends, resulting in an awesome deficit?? Did Chris Dodd really earn that special mortgage from Countrywide (and was he really ready to retire)?!

      We are all guilty – didn’t those on Main Street “err” by:  Taking an interest-only, variable-rate mortgage when they knew the math did not make sense? Keeping incompetant incumbents in office? Leveraging up our trade imbalance with China? Not investing in savings or education. Not adequately demonstrating the practices, discipline and ethics we want our children to know?

  • Elizabeth D

    If Gingrich is so outraged at the record of Bain Capital does he now support some kind of government regulation of business?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Business will self-regulate, as Bain did!

    • DiamondJim

      I think Newt is still working on rules allowing Tiffany gifts from political warchests. Mrs. G. certainly looks better with the ice, though…

      • TFRX

        Wingnut welfare trip turned into by-accident political campaign to pay for all the “I’m sorry dear” Tiffany blue boxes he had to buy the missus?

        I hadn’t thought about that before. Good hunch!

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Newt better watch out. Someone might review the outrageous rent he charges to lobbyists on his real estate holdings on K street.

  • Casey

    The irony – kill an “militant”: YAY!! Urinate on militant: NO!! Put a bullet in a man: YAY!! Urinate on a militant: NO! How is it that a if you kill a man, you’re a hero; but if you urinate on a man, you’re a villain? If it’s one or the other, please pee on me.

  • Sam Amelio

    I really enjoy your show since it has started to air in Pittsburgh on WESA.  Re the Marines urinating on bodies: Yes, it is horribly wrong to treat another human being’s body so disrespectfully. But the hypocritical  hand wringing of our politicians and some in the media is nauseating. Every soldier has to be taught that the enemy is “other” so that he/she may kill and still keep their own sanity.  These same service people have been shot at, lost best friends and, are subject to unrelenting stress  beyond the imagination of anyone who has not lived through it.  So let’s not be so quick to judge and condemn. Instead, let us realize that training for war can produce some ugly results.  This was not Viet Nam’s My Lai where innocents were killed. To pretend that it was, diminishes the horrors of real military atrocities.

  • TFRX

    Nothing yet on Newt Gingrich’s proposed solution for all those African Americans who’ve spent the recession not looking for jobs?

    Newt: “They should demand paychecks over food stamps.”

    It appears uncle Newt doesn’t want Romney to get that Tin Eared Economic Talk trophy without a fight.

    (And thanks to some people here I have to mention the joke, the meme, and the dogwhistle, plus the fact that if one has a low-paying-enough job one can still get food stamps.)

  • Jmc

    Tom can you ask your guests if the area the Strait the Iran is international waters or within the Iran border? If it is within their border then how do we stake claim to decisions made on how Iran controls its borders?

    • Socrates

      If Iran closes the strait, are they impeding international commerce? Even if “their territorial waters,” what is Iran’s societal obligation to its shipping/receiving neighbors? Finally, to really stretch the concept, if Iran is “protecting” its borders by closing the strait, can Israel be too brash in killing nuc. scientists to “protect” its own safety (Iran having stated categorically its goal to eradicate Israel)?

      • Jmc

        it is not for the U.S. to determine if Iran abides by our economic interests, if it is within their borders your suggestion is no different than traditional colonialism.

        • DaveyJones

          Sorry, Jmc. Not international waters, all. I checked. Go read today’s Huff Post, courtesy of Haggai Carmen: 35% of world’s oil supply runs through the Strait. Plenty of ways to protect their border and not close off all trade (though shipping will slow considerably due to Iranian action).

          Iran will reap the wrath of those nations who disagree. Already happening with in-country bombings — which I do NOT condone. B/C Iraq is blatantly ignoring Sec.Council, and majority international opinion, I suspect those countries who are most at risk are taking unilateral action.

          • Jmc

            thanks for the info, I think if willing a negotiation can take place, it does require diplomacy, something we have not excercised all that well on either side.

  • RAG

    Re: the marines video

    Bad PR for the pentagon but otherwise a tempest in a teapot.  The muslim are POed?  Boo-Hoo!  Who out there really believes this kind of thing doesn’t happen all the time in war.  Have we forgotten the desecration of GIs in Somalia or the contractors burned into cinders in Iraq.

    • Plain old Cory

      Don’t record the attrocities you commit yourself?

  • Anonymous

    The new American Research Poll out minutes ago is showing Paul at 20% in SC!  That poll is a big story if correct.  Paul has doubled his numbers in only a few days there, and both Romney and Gingrich seem to have gone down a little.

    Also, Santorum made a recent speech bragging that the US planted that Bomb in Iran and insinuating that we do that sort of covert operation – did that yesterday I think!  You can not have a President who would even hint at something like that – look that speech up, the man is itching to send troops to fight a new debt-financed war, but doesn’t have a clue that this announcement could be counterproductive?!  No wonder he’s dropped to 7% in SC.

  • Plain old Cory

    I have an idea of why the Marines descrated the corpses of their enemies, but I have no idea why they recorded it.

    • Anonymous

      I expect they are of an age that seems to record or otherwise preserve much of their life experiences, much like the Abu Graib photos or, on a mundane level, twitter and facebook.  So I’m not surprised they took video, which is so easy to do.  But who was responsible for releasing it instead of keeping it secret? 

  • Les

    How is anyone surprised? You teach people to kill, it removes their respect for humanity, this is what you get. 

  • M King

    What about the outrage with the Somalia’s killed and drag US soliders around after the Blawk Hawk down episode.  Also where was the Muslim outrage with Daniel Pearl was killed.

  • RoadKing

    Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the Taliban is offend when a dead body is desicrateted but they have no problem strapping on bombs to themselves and others then walking into crowded markets killing and maiming innocent people?

  • Anonymous

    All of America would be outraged at the sight of Taliban fighters urinating on dead American soldiers. It would be used as evidence of the brutality inherent in Islamic culture. Think about it.

    • Gregg

      All of America was outraged at the video taped beheadings, I don’t think it would have mattered if they were peed on afterwards. Meanwhile Maplethorp’s “Piss Christ” gets public funding and adulation. Go figure.

      • nj

        Recognizing the differences between reality and art is a challenge for some people.

        • Gregg

          In reality, pissing on a crucifix is not art. If there are any sickos that think it is then let them finance their own perversions without taxpayer funds.

          • nj

            Like i said, recognizing the differences between reality and art is a challenge for some people. 

          • Gregg

            Not me. But I feel sorry for you.

          • Anonymous

             please tell me what art is.

          • Gregg

            I can tell you what it isn’t.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Would the VICTIMS of the Roman Child-Molesting and Child-Abusing church have the right to pee on a crucifix?  Since the religion has exposed itself as GROSS HYPOCRICY?  As an expression of that hypocricy, could that NOT be called art?
                Catholics keep claiming a respect for a church that has proclaimed itself undeserving of respect!

      • Anonymous

         Yet another uninformed American blaming every bad thing that has ever happened in the Islamic world on every Muslim alive. AL Qaida in Iraq committed the beheadings in that country. The Taliban is our enemy in Afghanistan. Different wars, different countries, different antagonists, and different geo-political reasons. Al Qaida beheaded hostages so we can pee on people? Really?

        • Gregg

          “Yet another uninformed American blaming every bad thing that has ever happened in the Islamic world on every Muslim alive.”

          That the single most exaggerated idoitic projection I’ve heard yet… and that’s saying something.

          Are you saying the Taliban didn’t behead for fun an relaxation?

          http://www.veoh.com/watch/v16631012dq928nX3?h1=Taliban+Multiple+Beheadings+And+Hangings+!+VISIT+WWW.TRUTHTUBE.TV

          • Anonymous

            We did not go to war with the Taliban because they beheading people. The beheadings you referred too in your original reply were in reference to the beheadings in Iraq, carried out by Al Qaida in Iraq. Please don’t   insult my intelligence and imply otherwise. Most of America didn’t give a damn about what went on in Afghanistan. Most of them didn’t even know. The U.S. government which did know about Taliban brutality felt no need to try to forcibly stop it. Rightly so, in my opinion. As the Republicans used to say, pre-George w. Bush, “the United States is not the world’s policemen.” Using beheadings in Iraq, carried out by Al Qaida, as a half-assed attempt to minimize the What those marines did is the real idiocy here.l  

      • Anonymous

        That wasn’t by Mapplethorpe.

  • Elizabeth in RI

    Yes the combat stress and lack of support for our military personnel is a huge issue. And yes we have trained them to see the enemy as the “other”. The biggest issue is that they filmed it while wearing the colors of the the United States and posted that video – knowing the harm that it would do to our national reputation. They had to have known that this would get more Americans killed and make it harder to reach a peaceful ending. This was either incredibly stupid or an attempt to keep this horror show going.

  • Dee from NYS

    Regarding the Marine video: We have spent 10 years demonizing a people and a religion out of our own fear and need for revenge and retribution. This is not different than calling the Vietnamese “gooks.” Sadly, this is what we have become when we wage war, and all we really know how to do anymore is wage war. We know nothing about winning hearts and minds.

  • Mr T

    It is very sad, unfortunate but hardly a surprise. Is the image of Taliban beating a woman’s head, body buried up to her neck in sand, better? This is WAR, idiots! S**T happens!!

  • Anonymous

    Regarding the marines, yes that’s who we are. If anyone is shocked by this behavior they’re simply naive. Our marines have been doing horrible things (this is nothing in comparison) all over the world for decades. That’s why we are so well loved around the world. But back home we like to stick our heads into the sand, listen to pseudo-patriotic garbage and pretend that they represent some higher principles and aren’t just a bunch of killers with absolutely zero respect for human life, unless it’s theirs. Search Youtube for 10 minutes and you’ll find a ton more videos of our marines acting despicably both towards humans (desecrating corpses, etc.) and animals. And the videos are just a tiny percentage of what goes on because most marines aren’t dumb enough to record this stuff and put it up on Youtube for the world to see. But yeah, stick your head back in the sand and pretend these are just a few bad apples that don’t represent our armed forces.

  • Bill Nugent

    We eliminate a top Al Qaeda operative by firing a 
    ‘Hellfire” missile at the house of his in-laws while his wife and children are present; we design and employ concussion bombs that turn the caves of Afghanistan into mass graves; we burn people to death and dismember them. We also put our service people where they must become inured to a culture requiring unthinkable acts of violence in order to protect us and to survive themselves.  So these things don’t besmirch our honor but marines urinating on a corpse do?!! The calculation of the political consequences and implications are real and important.  But the pompous moral posturing of people who have never served is obscene.

  • Salma

    I am not surprised by the soldiers actions at all. With all the dehumnization of Muslims and Arabs that has become like American pie these days, what do you expect from soldiers that are brainswashed that this is an honorable war fighting worthless human beings?

  • Fredlinskip

    I don’t quite get why in the nomination process that different candidates should surge so much in the polls at different times. I mean these candidates records are there for all who care do a little research. Are voters so lazy and ignorant that they just allow there opinions to be swayed by this week”s right-wing media noise?

    • Clark Kent

      Hmmm… Yup?

    • Gregg

      Interesting angle. Which candidate does the “right-wing media noise” endorse? Did the media play a roll in the demise of Cain, Bachmann, Newt? I think you’ve got it backwards, it’s the left wing media noise that’s assaulting candidates. Oh that they would have scrutinized Obama so.

      • TFRX

        Your media compass has gone haywire.

        Either that or Republicans listen to left-wing media much more than anyone can credibly believe.

        • Gregg

          Cain’s unnamed, unverified accuser  was all over the media. John McCain was accused of an affair without evidence. John Edwards with overwhelming evidence was covered up.

          Which candidate does the right wing media endorse?

          • TFRX

            We won’t know which the right-wing media endorses until they decide. Meanwhile I call on the old Kremlinologists, who were expert in reading between the lines of Pravda and other propaganda, to interpret Fox, Rush and other non-journalism.

            You don’t know better, do you?

          • Gregg

            No, I don’t know. The claim was made the right wing media was giving marching orders. My question outs the lie.

          • TFRX

            Tuesday night, Fox host Eric Bolling, to Jennifer Horn (co-chair,
            Romney’s National Grassroots Leadership Committee): “We’re all on board if Mitt’s it.”

            That’s a host. Not a guest who will be ripped out of the Rolodex on a whim.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Did the company release the ladies from their ‘non-disclosure agreement’, so they COULD be named?  Or did the company keep that in effect?   If there was no sexual abuse, WHY have such an agreement?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        You missed all the media about Obama?  I’ll bet Osama got it in Abadabad!

      • Anonymous

        Left wing media? They are mostly owned by large corporations such as GE. If you think NBC is left wing you must be very, very right wing.

        • Gregg

          Okay fine, whatever you say.

      • TFRX

        Tuesday night, Fox host Eric Bolling, to Jennifer Horn (co-chair, Romney’s National Grassroots Leadership Committee): “We’re all on board
        if Mitt’s it.”

        That’s a host. Not a guest who will be ripped out of the Rolodex on a whim.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Bolling is an opinion analyst not a news journalist.

          I wonder if Bolling will be invited to moderate a debate this fall?  Matt Lauer has a similar job at a left leaning network and he moderated debates in 2008.

          • TFRX

            Yes, let’s hear more about canard of the Fox “news” folks v. Fox “opinion” folks.

    • Anonymous

       Yes they are. This country regularly has one of the worst voter turnouts of the worlds democracies. How can you vote after work if it means missing Dr. Phil?

  • Tom

    I am following the discussion about the video of the marines. One point I believe is being missed in the discussion is what the video says about American culture and its necrophiliac impulses. While the video will ultimately be explained away with excuses about training, lack of discipline or leadership, for nations suffering U.S. interventions the video really captures how Americans view the people of other nations. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      SOME U.S. citizens.   This forum gives you a cross-section of the U.S. attitudes.  They are NOT totally one!

      • MirrorMirrorOnTheWall

        Thanks. I know it is not everyone. Just seems so…

        • Terry Tree Tree

          A mirror is supposed to give an accurate reflection of what is there.

    • Socrates

      Like Cory wrote earlier: not surprised this happened (or at least we can speculate on why) but cannot fathom why the marines recorded it. Necrophilia? Xeonphobia?? Those seem a bit strong but surely the American fetish to recording/texting all we experience is out of hand…

    • Concerned citizen

      Very dumb thing for Marines to do to corpses. but
      very little discussion of the person doing the filming.
      After Abu Ghraib, you’d think the military would drastically
      tighten controls over any filming done by military personnel in combat……..any soldier found to be
      uploading any unauthorized pictures to the internet
      should be subject to discharge or court-marshal.

      Every soldier in Afghanistan should be angry that

      they’re at even greater risk than they already are because of 3 very dumb mistakes:

        – doing the dumb thing

        – taping the dumb thing

        – uploading the taping of the dumb thing

      Every single picture or video taken by any soldier in
      any branch of the service should be passed on to superior officer for official inspection and proper
      classification…..not as a way to hide bad behavior,
      but to protect our other troops around the world
      from all the fallout….war is hard enough as it is.

      Amazing how casual and dumb people have become
      regarding the unitended consequences of posting
      things on the internet, or even leaving a message
      on a cellphone…..

      - Concerned citizen

  • MarkVII88

    Is it fair to expect the grunts on the front lines who are trained in the minutiae of following orders, killing the enemy, looking out for their fellow soldiers, and staying alive to also be mindful of the big picture about foreign policy?  These guys don’t have doctorates in political science you know.

    • Anonymous

         Do you really think it requires a doctorate in Political Science to get what ‘s wrong with this? Does it really take a firm grasp of foreign policy to know that this is perverse behavior?                                                                                                           

  • ED

    I spent a year in combat and what the Marines did does not bother me a bit. Get Real! Our political leaders are acting like cowards. Defend our Marines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Anonymous

       SO you’ll not be bothered by American dead being urinated on?

      • Gregg

        I’d be more bothered there was a bullet through their brain. It seems that’s the issue.

        • Anonymous

           Answer the simple question I asked. If you saw a video of dead American soldiers being urinated on by the enemy who just killed them, would you be outraged or would you think, “What those Taliban fighters did does not bother me a bit.”

          • PrivateRyan

            Yes, I will be bothered. But I will then “pers-severe” with all my might and abilities. I led a plattoon for 18 months. While you sat home, no doubt. Leadership is not perfect, and I could not completely control everyone or everything. But I tried valiantly. We need to come home now; we have given this our best shot. Oh, and if any of your family or neighbors is doing heroin or derivatives, you can prob. thank the Taliban…

          • Anonymous

            Pardon me , but you have no idea what I was doing while you were leading your platoon. Nothing else you have said relates in the remotest way to anything  I have asked. Please try to explain what heroin has to do with urinating on dead enemies bodies.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Thank the CIA, that were, and probably still are, the biggest drug dealers.  Air America in Vietnam has been reported to bring drugs from the Golden Triangle!

          • Gregg

            Your hypothetical is hard to imagine but I would not be offended in the least by anything beyond the murder. I can’t believe I even have to say it. Would the proper reaction be, “It’s too bad they were killed in cold blood but urinating on the corpses is what really tics me off”.

            It seems silly to me.

          • Anonymous

            Soldiers who die in battle and their comrades in arms consider death in combat to be highly honorable, not murder. Is force A engaged in righteous military action and force B engaged in murder? By whose standards? The invader? The invaded? Ask some soldiers in the war zone how they would feel about the dead bodies of men they had morning chow with being urinated on later in the day. They already know war is about death. That’s why it’s called war. 

          • Gregg

            Your position is surreal to me although I suppose you did answer your own question. The killers lament their comrades deaths and celebrate the enemies death on both sides.

            This whole thing reminds be of the NAACP anti-Bush ad in 2000.

  • Constance

    Tom,
    The actions of the Marines were inexcusable.  Granted, they are engaged in war and presumably had just killed the Taliban soldiers that lay dead at their feet, but no one should condone this conduct. There is profound disgrace associated with this act. Otherwise, we are conveying the message that our soldiers are less than human and indeed that we ourselves are less than human.

  • Ken

    As pointed out by one caller it is fine to kill these folks but not to urinate on them after we kill them.  Contrary to Tom’s assertion that “we send these young Marines over there to kill people not urinate on them” I would prefer to be urinated on and alive rather than be killed.  After I am killed it will make no difference to me if I am subsequently urinated upon.

    • Still Here

      What if it was the urine that killed you?

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        drowned by urine?

  • Gulftangofox

    In case people have forgotten, the US Calvary used to cut off and process the breasts and scrotums of Indians they slaughtered.  Nobody seemed to mind at the time except relatives and friends of the victoms.  Nothing much has changed with Nazis, the Mossad, most Arab nations, the Russians, Chinese, Japanese, oh yes, and the USA.  And leave us not forget all the Latin American countries.

  • Fredlinskip

    If all the things that happened by our soldiers were videotaped and accurately recorded, this would be quite the minor incident. War ain’t pretty.
    After the Abu Ghraib incident, I believe the military clamped down quite a bit on just these sort of pictures and videos.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Again person of the week is Tim Tebow. if you Charles Barkley hate his guts. you got issues and you also don’t bad mouth the company who feeds you (Jenny Craig). US Marines doing pepe with dead terrorist was acceptable. Just imagine how those terrorist treat dead US soldiers. they chopped them into pieces.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      316 passing yards for Mr. John 3:16  on only 10 completions.

      Unfortunately for Mr. Tebow he has a rematch with Mr. Bellichick and Mr. Brady on Saturday.  If the game was on the sabbath he might have had a shot.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        I am still a Patriot fan. Tebow is just a great example for young people out there. it is not about the faith it is about how he shows is rights to do what he believe.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Absolutely!

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

            GO PATRIOTS!!!

  • JG

    I can’t believe the excuse-making on the part of today’s callers with regard to our soldiers urinating on Taliban corpses. These guys are in their 20s. It’s not an issue of poor training, stress, or a general mindset of self-defense, as argued by one caller. Corpses are already dead.

    Care of the dead is important and sacred in every culture of which I’m aware. Urinating on a corpse in a war zone is hateful and beyond immature. Filming and posting it to YouTube: stupid. The personal consequences will last a lifetime. What a sorry set of circumstances for everyone.

  • Anonymous

    Until I see one person post the belief that the thought of enemy personnel urinating on our dead would be perfectly     understandable and not worthy of condemnation, I’ll continue to believe that anyone trying to minimize or even deny the significance of this event is one of those fools who really believes that America is incapable of ever doing anything wrong, history notwithstanding.
     

    • Fredlinskip

      Patriotism seems to sometimes require looking the other way.
      After Abu Ghraib, we all heard again and again about how majority of Americans, didn’t want to know what really goes on in War, they just want to know that we were being kept safe.

      The concept that there were actually no terrorists in Iraq before we attacked is lost on many.

      • Gregg

        Virtually no terrorist? What on earth are you talking about. Iraq was on the state sponsor of terrorist list for a decade before 9/11. Hussein was a terrorist. You are not correct and if I had to guess, I’d say you are conflating Al Qaida with terrorist.

        • Anonymous

          That’s not entirely true, Saddam Hussein was a despot but Iran did more to fund and support terrorism than Iraq did. Hussein had a real dislike of Islamic extremist and saw them as threat to his own regime. However his regime did sponsor terrorist activities in the region.

          He had no direct ties to al-Qaeda or Bin Laden but seemed to be supporting groups associated with them. It’s very disingenuous to make statements like you do which seem to over simplify what is a complex region.  Was Hussein a terrorist? That’s a good question but I do not think that it warranted the attack on Iraq in 2003. 

          • Gregg

            I did not say Husein had ties to Al Qaida or Bin Laden. I did not make any comparisons to Iran or anyone else. Iraq was on the state sponsors of terrorist list off and on since 1979 and provided safe haven for groups like the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), and the Abu Nidal organization (ANO).

            Iraq had public executions on soccer fields. Women were raped in front of their children, eyes were gouged and tongues ripped out. There was a wood chipper in the basement of Abu Graib for prisoners. The lucky ones went in head first. He invaded a sovereign nation and he gassed his own people with WMD. He was shooting at our jets, swindling the world with “Oil for Food” and attempted to assassinate our President. Hussein was a terrorist by any definition.

            Where’s you beef with what I wrote? Why do you have to put words in my mouth to disagree?

            If you think the 17 Resolutions and the terrorist ties in a post 9/11 world did not justify the invasion then that’s fair but a completely separate issue. Fredlinskip was incorrect when he said there were virtually no terrorist in Iraq.

          • Freedlinskip

            Sadaam wasn’t a nice guy. Some of your facts are questionable and other are unrelated to “terrorism”. I think you drank The”kool-aid” deeply. You make a good point as far as the state-sponsored terrorism.
            I personally am not a fan of Wars, especially those initiated under a lot of false pretenses.
            You are concerned about national debt? You need not look a whole lot further than Iraq.

            You are entitled to your opinions.

          • Gregg

            Just setting the record straight.

          • nj

            Greggg is so unconfident in his arguments, he has to rely on myth and unsubstantiated claims to make his case. Or maybe he really believes everything he posts.

            The report of a “shredder” which Greggg has now turned into a “wood chipper,” was never corroborated. The claim basically stems from one person.

            http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/feb/25/iraq.iraqandthemedia

            And let’s remember that during most of the time Saddam was doing all those nasty things, he was our thug, supported and aided by the U.S. of A.

          • Gregg

            That’s funny dude. Are the eye gougings, tongue rippings, assassination attempts, rapes, “Oil for food”, public executions, gassing the Kurds with WMD, the 500 tons of yellowcake and the invasion of Kuwait all “myth”.

            I tend to believe the chipper story but take it out. You’ve still got some rebutting to do. What’s your point, are you saying Hussein was not a terrorist?

            Go ahead, dig you hole.

          • nj

            Greggg wants to pretend that Iraq’s torture and mistreatment of citizens (in the case of the gassings, using materials sold to Saddam by the U.S.) was the real reason for the invasion and occupation.

            If that’s that standard, why not invade and occupy Bahrain, Yemen, Syria, China, Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, Malaysia, Morocco, North Korea, Uganda, or any of number of other countries that torture and abuse its citizens?

            Heck, Canada just put the U.S. and Israel on their torture watch list, so let’s invade and bomb ourselves!

            Shrub and his band of criminals knew that wasn’t enough of a reason, which is why they trumped up the non-existant WMD, “catapaulted the propaganda” with the Saddam-is-another-Hilter spew, conflated Iraq with 9/11, etc.

          • Gregg

            Read Bush’s speech to the UN Sept. 12, 2002. This was the speech before the final resolution. Notice how much of it has to do with humanitarian concerns.It takes him a while to get to WMD. Skip the first dozen or so paragraphs to get to the time line of offenses.
            http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/bush.transcript/
            Were you paying attention?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ‘W’ said that Saddam Hussein was linked to Al Quieda and the 9/11 attacks, as an excuse to invade!

        • Fredlinskip

          By your definition any head of state  involved in any act of transgression against another state would be considered “terrorist”. If that’s the case then America would be leader of state-sponsored terrorism.
          Certainly Iraq was in no way connected with 9/11, although that and WMD’s, were the principle “kool-aid” that Americans were sold as reasons for entering the War.

          • Gregg

            No, my definition is far different.

            The American people were sold no such thing. No one said Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ‘W’ admin. used that as the basis for invading Iraq!  You been into Moda’s mercury?

          • Fredlinskip

            Sounds like you listened to the show earlier in the week about the science of selective “forgetting”.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            He can be good at that.

          • nj

            Greggg wants to tell us what the definition of is is.’

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiNtpIpD6k

          • Anonymous

             whatever credibility you may have had was shot to Hell with that last sentence. Either you paid no attention to the news for the year leading up to the invasion of Iraq, you were in a coma, or you’ve decided to simply ignore inconvenient truths.

        • Fredlinskip

          the argument about whether Sadaam himself was a terrorist aside, my point was that anyone who dared resist in any way our occupation of their country (as you or I might, if our country was invaded) was immediately labeled “terrorist”, subject to immediate execution or indefinite imprisonment.
               These “terrorists” did not exist before the invasion.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Perfectly understandable, and calculated to enrage any opponent that witnessed it! 
          After a long, grueling conflict against an enemy, that has exacted great costs to you, it is understandable, and evidently too common, for the victor to express some form of demeaning disdain for the vanquished, from my reading, and listening.   I’m NOT advocating it. 
          How many sports teams do NO celebration, including high-fives, after some success?   That’s only a game!  NOT life-and-death for many!

      • Anonymous

         Unfortunately, now more than ever,the United States feels compelled to puff out it’s chest and declare to all the world our exceptionalism in every facet of human existence. Military, medical, religious, educational and scientific innovation are but a few of what we consider our bragging rights.  Morality and holier than thou pontificating are our really strong suits. We call ourselves a Christian nation with traditional Jude o-Christian
         values. We revere the Founding Fathers and consider their constitution to be sacrosanct. We think we hold ourselves to a higher standard than the rest of the world. I wonder What Jesus Christ or Thomas Jefferson would have said about peeing on dead enemies. We tell the world that “we’re” better than that. Maybe not.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          MUCH religious HYPOCRICY throughout!
              Ten of the major religions have one ‘Law above ALL other laws’;  which boils down to ‘treat others as you wish to be treated! 
             Does each member of a religion wish to be constantly mis-treated based  on their choice of religion, color, race, gender, or other aspects that a person CANNOT control? 
             Do they ‘forgive’ the crimes and sins of those of other religions, or without religions, as they ‘forgive’ those of their own sect of Child-Molesting, Rape, Theft, Murder, Child-Abuse, or other actual crimes?

        • Fredlinskip

          Appreciate your passion, but peeing on dead “combatants” pales in comparison to blowing civilians to bits for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time is a cause for greater concern.

          IMO

          But if it takes peeing on dead soldiers for folks to start paying greater attention to the barbarism of unnecessary War, it’s a good thing in my book.

          • Anonymous

            Why must everyone qualify our less than civilized behavior by comparing it to someone else’s evil deeds? Shouldn’t “The greatest nation the world has ever known” hold itself to a high level of decency for the sake of decency itself ? We can’t do stupid things, get angry with the world for not loving us, and then claim it’s O.K. because someone else did something worse. And by the way, as long as we have American Idol, celebrity Tweets, and YouTube, Americans will never pay attention to the barbarism of war.

          • Fredlinskip

            I am not comparing our behavior to someone else’s. I am comparing our uncivilized behavior of peeing on dead combatants to our sometimes accidentally (I would like to hope) killing the wrong people (collateral damage).
            Such is what happens in War.

          • Anonymous

             I’m sorry. I thought you were referring to 9/11 and comparing this event to that. My mistake.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    PTSD - the reason why those Marines urinated on those dead Taliban fighters. It is the anxiety of war.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Our government just need to understand the effects of war in a soldier’s mind. PTSD is a very unpredictable sickness you never know when that person will snap.

  • John in Amherswt

    On the GOP race, it is worth pointing out that country is not synonomous with corporation.  It follows that running a country is essentially not the same as running a corporation.  It is amusing watching the GOP candidates tie themselves in knots over Romney’s record, attempting to question what he did as the head of a private equity firm, while simultaneously bemoaning Obama’s bailing out the auto industry and other administration policies that are dubbed as the government socializing this or that sector.  So they want the government to get out of the business of business, but they want someone with good business skills to downsize the government and cut waste and run the country more like a business, just not Romney….   There is an issue around how that money Romney made was then taxed – as cap gains, at 15%, instead of income, and it is galling to think of Romney paying taxes at a rate of 15% on tens of millions per year, while his secretaries paid substantially higher rates.  This is almost certainly why he has not released his tax returns.  But I doubt if that is bothering the GOP candidates much.  They are just groping for some mud to throw in SC, a state where the socially conservative voters are or were also factory workers who resent layoffs.
     
    There are 2 editorials in the NYT that address some of this whole private equity manager as president controversy: 
      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/opinion/krugman-america-isnt-a-corporation.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper 
     
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/opinion/brooks-the-ceo-in-politics.html?ref=todayspaper
     
    I think Krugman could have expanded more on the idea that countries are not corporations.  He confined himself to the fiscal equation.  But countries do more than make and sell stuff.  Countries also have social responsibilities as stewards of people and infrastructure and the environment.  They have political and military relationships with other countries.  In short, they do a lot of shit that has nothing to do with making money.  Romney has demonstrated his talent for restructuring companies, but the skills & tactics for running the country are different and more diverse, and I’m not sure he’s got what it takes in terms of skill or temperament, which was the point of the Brooks editorial.
      

    • John in Amherswt

      I DEEPLY apologize for the profanity in the above post.  The text was copied in part from an email to a friend, and it slipped in unoticed.  (How do I edit comments?)

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Thanks for caring what language is put in a public forum, that children, and others with more delicate sensibilities.    
            I know the words, and have used them, just NOT in a public forum!  I was taught a certain amount of propriety.

        • John in Amherswt

          You are correct.  Sad this forum is also discussing US soldiers urinating on bodies

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Unfortunately, that mistake is news. Unless O’Keefe manufactured it.

    • Still Here

      Governments don’t make or sell anything.  Governments don’t earn the money they spend, they confiscate it from earners or borrow it from savers.  This government could stand to be restructured.

      • Anonymous

        Wrong. Government funds a lot of R&D. NASA comes to mind as something that has brought us a lot of things we now take for granted. For instance, the idea of the internet. Also government builds infrastructure which is needed to move goods and services. They provide police protection and fire departments to name a few things.
        I would like to see government work better and be more efficient, not dismantled to the level of collapse.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          thank god you didn’t mention Taxes. “wink”

      • John in Amherst

        The quote, “I don’t mind paying taxes.  With them I buy civilization” (Oliver W. Holmes) comes to mind

      • Anonymous

        Where is this wonderful place where there is no government and everyone lives happily ever after?  If there is currently no such place, feel free to identify any such entities that have ever existed. 

        • Still Here

          Why do you have to take the argument to the silliest extreme?  Smaller government doesn’t mean no government.  However, the solution from here is certainly not bigger government.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Why do you take things to the silliest extremes?  Somalia has essentially NO government!  Go live there?

      • Anonymous

        People who object strenuously to paying taxes should be allowed to opt out. Of course they would then be barred from the publicly built and maintained roadways of America. Lost a job? Forget about that evil government mandated program, unemployment insurance. Need to visit the family in East Podunk? No air travel for you, for the skies are kept safe through the highly stressful efforts of publicly trained and employed air traffic controllers. Considering the fact that you can’t use the public roadways, have a nice walk. Can’t afford a good private school for the kids? No public school for the little angels. Hope you’re good at home schooling. Some bad guys around? Don’t call the cops. House on fire? Too bad, but no dice. Look at all that trash building up in the back yard. How ever to get rid of it. Maybe a nice half acre compost heap. Doctor screwed up your medical procedure and your going to sue the bastard. Wrong. The courts are a public entity. Hoping to eat some of that USDA inspected food. Sorry. You get to eat the special supply of non-inspected food. Good Luck.    Hurricanes, Tornadoes, Forrest fires? Too bad. No government aid for you. Some jerk ran a red light and banged up the VW? I guess you’ll have to beat some compensation out of him because, as we know, the cops and courts are of no use to you. The guaranteed income that comes with social security, an income that most of the people who have ever collected would not have turned down on a bet? None for you. Well give you back what you put in plus some interest. Medicare? Try to stay healthy. Since you wouldn’t be supporting the military with tax dollars, I’m sure you’d be right up at the front lines in the event of war. Who needs taxes?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          EXCELLENT!!

        • Still Here

          Please, open your closed mind and challenge the tenants of your tidy, little belief system.  Restructuring government doesn’t mean getting rid of it.  Why waste space arguing against something no one is arguing for?  You’re capable of better.

          • Anonymous

             This was meant as a sarcastic jibe at people who refer to taxes as “confiscation.”You claim that governments don’t make anything. Wrong. They make us civilized. Look at the long list of government services and functions I referenced and tell me they don’t “make” our lives better. Try to imagine life without a single one of them.

          • notafeminista

            Governments clearly don’t make us civilized if there is a story about Marines urinating on the dead in the 21st century. 

            As I recall the Left hails the military as one of the great examples of socialism.

            Which way would you like it to be?

          • Anonymous

            A few urinating Marines means we’re all  uncivilized? There are 300,999,996 Americans who didn’t urinate on anyone that day, unless it was consensual. Don’t question my sense of civility because of what those clowns did. I can’t even guess what you’re insipid second sentence is supposed to mean.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    How many Venture Capital companies, or individuals, promoted their business as ‘Job Creating, to prospective investors?  Or did they promote themselves for their Return On Investment?
        When a company, and its employees LOST jobs, pensions, and the company, did the Venture Capitalists PROFIT?

  • Still Here

    Obama’s raising the debt limit by another $1.2 trillion with a “t”. What a failure!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      He has too.

    • Freedlinskip

      Are you aware of how many times W raised debt limit- (and that during a supposedly healthy economy)?
      perhaps more revenue may be required from the wealthy & corps sitting on trillions?
      Maybe?

      • Still Here

        I would vote against W but he last ran 8 years ago.

        • Freedlinskip

          That’s comforting, but I would be real surprised if you voted against him the 2 elections you had the chance to.

      • TFRX

        He may not be. Only under our new FiscallyConservative(TM) GOP public servants has this ordinary thing become a crisis!11!1one!

      • Gregg

        Our credit card is maxed out. I kept raising the debt limit until it reached $25,000. I make $35,000/year. I want some new stuff so I’m getting it raised to $50,000. My wife objects and has gotten quite huffy about it. I pointed out that 4 years ago she asked the credit card company to raise the debt limit from 5 to 6 thousand, why is she complaining now? Her actions justified my raising it as high as I want. Our earning capacity has nothing to do with it. Our previous debt it irrelevant. I don’t know why she is so unreasonable. It’s all her fault.

        • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

          if that’s how you make and owe, you are in big trouble my friend. it would take 2 generations for you to pay those debt if you are still around.

          • Gregg

            That’s my hypothetical point.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Sell some horses, or land.

        • Anonymous

          What happened to your $500,000, which is the AVERAGE net worth of a US household?  It seems foolish to be incurring this debt when you have plenty of cash on hand.  You should be using your money more prudently.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Gregg must have gotten over $450,000 of mine, too!  I never saw it!

      • Bruce

        Yes, and the patron saint of conservatism himself, Ronald Reagan, raised the debt ceiling 18 times and signed 11 tax increases into law including the largest peace time tax hike in U.S. history–TEFRA. 

        The “Gipper” would be drummed out of today’s Tea Party-dominated GOP for daring to compromise after recognizing the failure of his supply-side tax cuts to generate sufficient revenue. 

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Didn’t Obama say raising the debt limit was immoral when W. did it?

        Gee what changed?

        This is why we hate politicians.

        • Bruce

          I don’t recall that statement, but in my view it was immoral to declare a “War on Terrorism” and not ask/expect all of us to pay for it and share some of the sacrifice. 

          Bush only exhorted us to “go shopping” and run up more credit card debt.  He could have pushed for tax increases to pay for the Wars and the prescription drug program, but he chose not to change course in the middle of his administration, admit any mistakes, or compromise with his ideological opponents.

          It seems to me that deficits and debt don’t matter to conservatives if they accumulate under Republican administrations. 

          Debt under Obama, coming out of the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, is treated differently by the same fiscal-conservatives-in-name-only who insisted that debt was irrelevant under Reagan or Bush II.

          Is it just me or am I correct in my sense that a double standard is being applied to Obama, and that his critics from the Right keep raising the goalposts and stretching out the yardsticks used to evaluate his performance?

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            You are correct that there is a double standard.  It’s not an absolute double standard because the magnitude of the deficits are 4-5X Bush’s worst deficit year.

            Yes, many GOP got in line with W.  Bush only had 11 vetoes in 8 years.  He never fought against big spending.  Cheney said “deficits don’t matter”. Criminal.
            Yes, he didn’t ask for sacrifice in paying for the way (remember Bush I went hat in hand across the world and got the Saudi’s and Japan to pay for desert storm).

             There were others like Jim DeMint fighting the increase in spending and debt run up.  Ron Paul was in there too.

            In fact the TEA party movement started railing against Bush spending policies in Dec 2007 by Ron Paul on the anniversary of the Boston tea party.  It started growing in 2009 in protest of TARP and other spending measures.  It exploded when Obama exponentially added to the debt and resulted in the election of 80 house members in 2010.

          • Fredlinskip

            Much of the War debt was mysteriously kept off the books during W years (classified info that might aid terrorists?) but was accounted for under Obama.

            How much of the TARP bail out, initiated under W is counted as Obama administration debt?

            Porkbarrel spending, which under previous administration was astronomical (mostly favoring red states), mostly went away under Obama.

            And of course W tax breaks (GOP members would prefer death than suffer the embarrassment of going against Norquist) continue to compound the debt.
             
            (Don’t have the time now to do some of the fact-checking perhaps someone else might come to my aid).

          • Bruce

            On the other hand, if you use the yardstick coming out of WWII (the last time I checked) the debt-to-GDP ratio we are currently seeing or anticipating does not appear to be that out of line with historical precedent,  given the depth and severity of the Recession that began after Bush et al crashed the economy.

            Obama and his advisors seem to have miscalculated the extent of the Recession and underestimated the size of the stimulus and the time it would take to generate enough growth to reduce unemployment to an acceptable level. 

            However, I also think it’s evident that his policies have at least kept the country from going over the precipice.

          • Roy Mac

            “Obama exponentially added to the debt…”   What exponent do you have in mind?  Surely less than 2.

          • Zero

            The deficit was at $1.2 trillion by the time Obama took over. 

        • Fredlinskip

          Debt limit raised 7 times under W without much fanfare.

          Reagan supported belief that economics was at least 50% psychology.
            If this is true then GOP with their Great Debt Ceiling Debate (directly responsible for downgrade of US AAA rating) & continued policy of unprecedented obstructionism, have done all within their power to do, to bring down our economy.

    • Newton Whale

      Actually, that would be Congress. The President doesn’t appropriate money.

  • Bob Garcia

    The urinating video is unfortunate.  I don’t believe it was appropriate or condone that kind of action.  But this type of thing has probably occured as far back as war and conflict has existed.

    The new twist is that this particular action was recorded and broadcast around the world for all to see and now represents our willful defiling of the dead.  It is a smug taunting, rub-in-your-face type immature action that is sure to fire up negative responses from those that already hate us.

    It may also, unfortunately, undo many years of progress paid through the blood and treasure of those that fought before them, all because of this video exposure. 

    • Anonymous

       AMEN

  • Dan Cooper

    These are not great guests.  One of them doesn’t seem terribly bright, one is angry, and one is biased.  The net result is precious little in the way of insight or analysis.

    Regarding the Marines, as a veteran myself it always amazes me when there’s disappointment our gladiators don’t behave like ladies and gentlemen, in the same way it amazes me people are shocked – shocked! when NFL players act out violence after the whistle or in civilian life.  Wake up America, the measure of a civilisation is not whether or not it pees on those it slaughters, it’s the slaughter. 

    • Anonymous

       I’ll ask you the same question I asked earlier on this board. If you saw a video of enemy fighters urinating on recently killed American soldiers, would you be  outraged?  Contrary to what you claim, any country making a practice of urinating on the dead would be considered very uncivilized, indeed. And if we want to pretend we’re better, we have to “be” better. How can anyone, any where in the world view this video and think  “Yeah, those Americans. Let’s try to be like that. How admirable!”   

      • quadraticus

        In order to be better, we should concentrate on NOT KILLING PEOPLE. How hard is it to understand that killing people is obviously worse than urinating on the corpses of those we’ve already killed?

        • Anonymous

          We’ll never stop killing people. People have been killing people forever. Republicans in congress are wringing their hands at the horrible thought of reducing the defense department’s budget to something resembling sanity. Who in the rest of the world poses the kind of threat to  U.S. freedom and stability that John McCain, et al keep fretting about?  Russia??? Iran??? China??? The big problem is that the next time some administration concocts some dubious need to go to war, the American people will fall in line,lockstep. Remember Freedom Fries?

      • Dan Cooper

        I would not be outraged, I’d expect it.  That’s why I marshalled all my outrage about our involvement in these wars, because that’s the real issue.  Once the war has been started, concern over manners is misplaced, it’s too late to stay up nights thinking about respect for each other.  It’s really hard to kill someone without dehumanizing them in your mind, and once you do that all sorts of things happen.  It’s hard for the public, who enjoy claims such as ‘our men and women in uniform are the best people we have’ to accept but the truth is, at least when I was in, we were not the best Americans.  That happens for a lot of reasons, one of which is the absence of a draft in USA so that certain people don’t have to fight.  Regardless, soldiers regularly do worse things than this to women they’re not fighting against just because we’re drunk and dumb.  Grow up.  It’s a group established to kill faster than it dies.  If you want something you can respect think of another system and put it in place.  But criticizing the slaughter machine for being rude is a luxury of the coddled, and surprise over this video is a luxury of the naive.

        • Anonymous

          Finally. A direct answer. Thank you.

          • Dan Cooper

            Happy to oblige.  Go Giants!

        • notafeminista

          So one assumes you felt the same level of outrage at the deaths of the subcontractors and Daniel Pearl and so forth….?

      • Dan Cooper

        I would not be outraged, I’d expect it.  That’s why I marshalled all my outrage about our involvement in these wars, because that’s the real issue.  Once the war has been started, concern over manners is misplaced, it’s too late to stay up nights thinking about respect for each other.  It’s really hard to kill someone without dehumanizing them in your mind, and once you do that all sorts of things happen.  It’s hard for the public, who enjoy claims such as ‘our men and women in uniform are the best people we have’ to accept but the truth is, at least when I was in, we were not the best Americans.  That happens for a lot of reasons, one of which is the absence of a draft in USA so that certain people don’t have to fight.  Regardless, soldiers regularly do worse things than this to women they’re not fighting against just because we’re drunk and dumb.  Grow up.  It’s a group established to kill faster than it dies.  If you want something you can respect think of another system and put it in place.  But criticizing the slaughter machine for being rude is a luxury of the coddled, and surprise over this video a luxury of the naive.

  • Anonymous

    If you can’t tell me what it is ,then you can’t tell me what it isn’t. logic 101.

  • Anonymous

    If you can’t tell me what it is then you can’t tell me what it isn’t logic 101

  • Anonymous

    My apologies to this comment board. My two postings below were meant for art expert Gregg, who doesn’t even know the real name of the artist whose work he’s criticizing.

    • Gregg

      Dude, I didn’t mean to get into your head. First of all, apologies for crediting Mapplethorp but he’s really the same as Serrano. I’m kind of proud not to know.

      I guess my point went over your head. The subject was urinating on corpses and the outrage over it. Adulation and public funding for “Piss Christ” but outrage over pissing on dead tyrants, if that irony is lost on you then I don’t know what to say. I was not commenting on art nor was I condoning the behavior of the soldiers.

      Now, if you want to go there, I will say art is in the eye of the beholder. The artist seeks to elicit emotion, if that emotion is disgust, fine but don’t make me pay for it. Further, I am an artist and have made a comfortable living at it. I know what it’s like to stare down 2000 people in a $5 million room quiet enough to hear a pin drop and by myself (and $250,000 of PA) express my innermost id in such a way the audience is glad they paid for the ticket. I’ve also stayed in motels so seedy there were dead cats floating in the pool. I’ve had to pilfer gardens and eat happy hour hou’derves to survive. I know a little about art and sacrificing for it. Not that that has anything to do with anything.

      • Gregg

        Twice, cool.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        People pay $2500 per head, to hear you?  I’m IMPRESSED!   I wasn’t aware 2000 people would pay that much for a ticket to one artist?

        • Gregg

          Don’t know how you got that.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            $5 MILLION divided by 2000 people in the audience, as you posted.

          • Gregg

            I was referring to the cost of the fancy theater. I was just the piano player not the star. It does take some gumption to start a song with a long intro alone in a quiet opulent room, that’s all. I’m not famous or rich just a hired gun who has done some big shows and continues to make a living.

    • Gregg

      Dude, I didn’t mean to get into your head. First of all, apologies for crediting Mapplethorp but he’s really the same as Serrano. I’m kind of proud not to know.

      I guess my point went over your head. The subject was urinating on corpses and the outrage over it. Adulation and public funding for “Piss Christ” but outrage over pissing on dead tyrants, if that irony is lost on you then I don’t know what to say. I was not commenting on art nor was I condoning the behavior of the soldiers.

      Now, if you want to go there, I will say art is in the eye of the beholder. The artist seeks to elicit emotion, if that emotion is disgust, fine but don’t make me pay for it. Further, I am an artist and have made a comfortable living at it. I know what it’s like to stare down 2000 people in a $5 million room quiet enough to hear a pin drop and by myself (and $250,000 of PA) express my innermost id in such a way the audience is glad they paid for the ticket. I’ve also stayed in motels so seedy there were dead cats floating in the pool. I’ve had to pilfer gardens and eat happy hour hou’derves to survive. I know a little about art and sacrificing for it. Not that that has anything to do with anything.

      • Anonymous

         Leaving aside the art issue, my only concern is the brutal hypocrisy I read throughout this board yesterday. In your comments yesterday and today you have implied that an enemy who kills an American in war is a “murderer,”a “cold blooded killer,” and a “tyrant.” My guess is that you would not use these terms in reference to U.S. fighting men, nor should you. We can argue or discuss or rant about the War in Afghanistan another time. I’d be happy to engage in that exchange. But yesterday I read numerous posts written by people who saw what our Marines did as no big deal. I repeatedly asked for at least one of them to tell me how they would feel if the roles were switched. None of them did. Of course, we all know how we’d feel if we saw such a video. We’d be outraged. If a particular behavior is outrageous and dishonorable, then that’s what it is for everyone, not just the other side. If we’re unfortunate enough to  see such things being done to our boys, maybe we’ll get it.

        • Gregg

          I largely agree with much of what you say but here’s the difference: I don’t believe truth is a continuum of perspective. We are right and they (radical Islamic terrorist) are wrong. Our way is better and we are better. If you want to defend oppression of women and suicide bombing then go right ahead but you own it.

          • Anonymous

            Condemning desecration of the dead is not defending oppression of women or suicide bombing. We’re better than them, so we get to pee on them?

          • Gregg

            No, we get to kill them.

          • Anonymous

            Real cute. Avoid the issue like a petulant child.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        I think that government support for the arts should be limited to about $200 per copy, per performance, etc..  Government isn’t meant to support the arts, as their main means of support.  40 ish years ago, I read of an ‘artist’ being paid over $ 1 MILLION for directing the placement of about 16 boulders by a new Post Office, for the ‘art’ of the arrangement, which wound up where I, or nearly anyone would put them!
            Several other examples of government OVER-spending for ‘art’, that I object to.
            I did not think much of the ‘Piss- Christ’, then, or now.  I accept that it is someone’s idea of ‘art’, it certainly isn’t mine.
           Sometimes I wonder if it isn’t a way to pay for ‘Black’ projects.  That is the only way it makes sense to me!

        • Gregg

          I don’t want a dime.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            NOT even when you were a ‘starving artist’, pilfering gardens to exist?  Doesn’t that mean you were taking things from gardens, without getting permission?

  • Anonymous

     I’ll do it for you. Art is What Gregg says it is

  • Victoria

    “it never goes away on youtube” – not true.  can’t watch it now. but that’s another show.

  • JIm from Providence

    2 points:
    Romney said in Iowa that corporations are people.
    The problem is they’re NOT the best of citizens.  They are devoted, solely, to their best interest.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Senile and corrupt people, including 5 Black-robed, say corporations are people!!  Can’t tell the difference?

    • notafeminista

      As is every human being on the planet.  Welcome to the world.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        You’ve NEVER seen, or heard of, someone that put their own profits aside, to help someone else?  You’ve NEVER seen, or heard of, someone that risked their life, to help someone?
           What a GREEDY, SELFISH world you live in!

        • notafeminista

          Well now.  If one puts his/her own profits aside, what does he/she live on?  Angel’s tears?  According to Christopher Hitchens, not even Mother Teresa was through and through altruistic. 

          Having money and having a willingness to help (in whatever context) are not (as much as you would like them to be) mutually exclusive conditions.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            MOST Volunteer Fire-Fighters, MOST Volunteer Rescue Squad members, and MANY other Volunteer organization members, risk their lives, give up lots of their personal time, give up pay at the job that keeps food on their table, risks health and sanity, to go out in ANY weather, to help someone they probably don’t know, and may not like!
               YOU know any $Millionaires or $Billionaires that match that?  ANY that EXCEED that?

          • notafeminista

            1)Yes I do. 
            2)You don’t pay the rent being a volunteer firefighter. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Are your answers supposed to make some sense?
               You’re right that I don’t pay the rent being a Volunteer Fire Fighter!  It’s an expensive, dangerous, time consuming endeavor, that takes time that I, and ALL the other unpaid Volunteers put into it, so that the $MILLIONAIRES that don’t help, have the help they may need someday!

      • Anonymous

         Peace corps., Vista, homeless shelters, firemen and police officers risking their lives, volunteer agencies of every kind designed to aid the less fortunate, Farm Aid, Live Aid, lawyers taking cases pro  bono. Gee, I wonder if anyone in New Orleans, Haiti, or Japan reached out to help others after their natural disasters. I guess not, the selfish bastards.

        • notafeminista

          But not at the expense to themselves.  Not a one.  Lawyers don’t live on pro bono cases and Brad Pitt doesn’t live on fundraisers for New Orleans and apparently Wyclef Jean is now on the hook for misappropriating funds in Haiti.  The organizers of Live Aid and Farm Aid charged for their services. 

          Selfish bastards.

          • Anonymous

             Every time a professional provides services free of charge it represents money he doesn’t make. Foregoing  money you could make but don’t  for reasons of altruism does not indicate a concern solely for ones self, it indicates the exact opposite. Of course lawyers don’t live on pro bono cases. Can you guess why? I’ll tell you why. BECAUSE THEY’RE PRO BONO. I’m quite sure Brad Pitt doesn’t try to live on fund raisers for New Orleans. The fact that Wyclef Jean may be on the hook in no way minimizes the effort made by many thousands to ease the suffering in Haiti. Live Aid and Farm Aid were not designed to get the organizers money. They were designed to get the millions of dollars in donations that were made by people concerned for someone other than themselves. I know a few firefighters in my town. I’ll have to ask them if they think the two recent deaths of their comrades while fighting fires were at no expense to themselves. I look forward to your next batch of foolish non sequiturs 

          • notafeminista

            Anyone..professional or otherwise makes the money for himself FIRST before performing acts of charity. Thus he is ALWAYS self interested first.   

          • Anonymous

             No one here claimed otherwise. You, on the other hand told Jim from Providence that every human being on the planet is devoted “solely to their best interest,” implying that charitable impulses do not exist. Suddenly you add the qualifier, FIRST. Nice try, but once it’s on the web it’s there forever.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            VERY GOOD!!

  • Jim from providence

    The Republican Party is schophrenic:
    You cannot serve both God and money.”   Matthew 6:24
    The conservatives want God, the Party wants money.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      And if Money, a form of POWER, IS their god?

  • Phufschmied

    Who cares about Romney’s capitalist credentials. All these attacks and counterattacks are just theater to distract from the real issues.The real issues this election campaign should be the crazy supreme court decision that corporations are people and the fact that anybody anywhere can now be legally arrested and held without any rights. everything else pales in comparison. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      SOOO TRUE!!

  • Hidan

    Interesting enough the attack on the Civilian Iranian scientist(not the first mind you) was not labelled as a terrorist attack by the media.

    Greenwald goes more into it
    http://www.salon.com/2012/01/12/iran_and_the_terrorism_game/singleton/

    “The prime argument against calling these scientists killings “Terrorism”
    is that targeted killings — as opposed to indiscriminate ones — cannot
    qualify. After Andrew Sullivan wrote a post
    entitled “The Terrorism We Support” and rhetorically asked: “is not the
    group or nation responsible for the murder of civilians in another
    country terrorists?”,

  • Hidan

    Also I’m puzzled Onpoint missed this.

    Should The Times Be a Truth Vigilante?

    “I’m looking for reader input on whether and when New York Times news
    reporters should challenge “facts” that are asserted by newsmakers they
    write about.”

    http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/should-the-times-be-a-truth-vigilante/

  • Rob in Westchester, NY

    Baffled by the pissing Marines.

    I cannot understand why it is okay to kill someone, but it’s not okay to urinate on their *now dead* bodies.  We train these people to kill; that’s their job. We insist that they dehumanize in order to kill, but are surprised when they act in inhumane ways.  The big deal is killing, not voiding urine on dead already dead bodies.  I’m baffled. 

    Rob in Westchester, NY

    • Anonymous

       I’ve asked a version of this question several times today. No one has given me an answer, not even the ones who, like you, seem to consider it a minor occurrence. Maybe you’ll give an answer. May I safely assume that if it were a video of Taliban fighters urinating on dead American Marines you’d not consider it ,to use your words, a “big deal?”

      • Terry Tree Tree

        You didn’t like my answer?

        • Anonymous

           You’re answer doesn’t fit the criteria. I want one of the people who seem to think what the Marines did was no big deal to tell me that seeing Taliban fighters do the same to our dead fighters would be fine with them. If they can’t say that, they’re hypocrites.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Ok.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Rob, your mistake is you are using logic.  War is hell and it is difficult for anyone not there understand the motives for these soldiers actions.  Maybe these Taliban just killed their buddy.

      The military MUST maintain discipline.  These guys broke the rules and must face justice even though it may make no logical sense.

      One of the practical reasons for the military code is they want to avoid the use of these breaches for propaganda AGAINST us.  How much did Abu Ghraib cost us?  This video will certainly be used as a recruiting tool and will cost American lives.

      • Fredlinskip

        The greatest “recruiting tool” was America’s decision to go to War in Iraq.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Which Iraq war? There were two.

          Seriously, the Iraq war is a completely different discussion.  I’m not a big fan but we won’t know the real outcome for decades.

          The debate on urination vs. killing, which is worse, exemplifies why war is terrible and should be avoided, when possible.

          • Fredlinskip

            Like it should have been avoided in Iraq- (that would be W’s occupation I’m referring to).

  • In Wyoming

    I don’t remember our government expressing outrage when our soldiers dead bodies were dragged through the streets. If our cultural rules are violated that’s ok but we must apologize if someone else’s are. I regret that it happened but the same happens to us!

    • Anonymous

       You don’t have much of a memory, I guess.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      While I see your point, you must remember that the citizens of these countries do not see the US as anything but invaders and occupiers. Which we are. How would you like foreign troops in your home town?  I think that had something to do with our own revolution and involved British troops. Suggest you read up on US history.

  • Mary

    Republicans need to figure out who they are.  They are disgusted by Obama’s “socialist America”; and in the same breath, commiserate the losses of the poor who are sacrificed by free-trade and capitalism.
    If you want to help the poor, you cannot support all aspects of free-trade/capitalism.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      If you think that the Republicana have any desire to help the poor suggest you rethink. As a group they are the greediest folks around.

      • Still Here

        Greedy, right.  It’s lazy Democrats who want to take money from hard-working Republicans.  Democrats are a bunch of greedy freeloaders.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

          “Still here” and apparently “still confused”.   

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Republicans KNOW who they are.   They are the ones that care only for the GREEDY rich, putting the working-class in more and more jeopardy, with laws and plans that take jobs away, to the PROFIT of the GREEDY rich!
          Since Civil Rights, a compassionate change to an unjust way of life, Republicans have tried to find ways to keep minorities and women down.  Did Christ preach that?

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Terry, please don’t hold back.

      • notafeminista

        Indeed.  All any of us need is food, fuel and shelter.  Anything more is just greedy greedy greedy!

    • Still Here

      Republicans are all for extending help temporarily to people who are down on their luck and have the desire to help themselves.  Unlike Democrats, they don’t want to support endless freeloading by greedy slackers.  

  • Anonymous

    Comment about Rush bringing “order” to the Romney discussion.

    Premier Radio syndicates Rush Limbaugh’s radio show.

    • Gregg

      I think it’s $400,000,000.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Rush has been a happy Mitt basher since the race started.  The irony is Rush endorsed Mitt (over the Huckster) against McCain.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks Gregg. It is still a lot of money to “referee”. It pays even better than being a “Historian” for Fannie-Freddie.

  • Gregg

    A reply to Fredlinskip, NJ, Feettothefire and TerryTreeTree (Putting it up top because it’s too delicious to bury 100+ comments down):

    No one ever tied 9/11 to Iraq, it was a myth created by the media. The most that can be said is the connection could not be ruled out. DUH! Al Qaeda was in Florida for goodness sake. But no one made it. The media insisted over and over they made it until people like ya’ll believed it. You have been led and you eagerly followed. Now you’re so convinced you get all snarky when the false notion is challenged but you provide no evidence. You can’t.

    NJ’s link is hilarious in that regard. For the record, I’ve seen it a thousand times for nearly a decade. It’s entitled: “Cheney: I never linked Iraq with 9/11. Oh really?” It plays Cheney on “Meet the Press” saying: “With respect to 9/11, of course, we’ve had the story that’s been public
    out there. The Czechs alleged that Mohamed Atta, the lead attacker, met
    in Prague with a senior Iraqi intelligence official five months before
    the attack…”. Here’s the rest of what he said: “but we’ve never been able to develop anymore of that yet
    either in terms of confirming it or discrediting it. We just don’t know.
    . The editing is one way they lead you. Then Bush goes on to explicitly deny any link.

    Here’s Cheney again on “Meet the Press” explaining it. The title is funny in that it says he’s admitting something he’s always said.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWdq7hg4dLU

    One would think, even if you claim this statement by Cheney could be interpreted to be a solid accusation (a far stretch), there would be a more direct quote somewhere. Is that it? One citation of a Chech allegation labeled clearly as unconfirmed and the Bush administration is in a full-fledged effort to lie us into war? Bush (and Cheney) said many tmes there was no link. Was he such a brilliant orator he could say one thing and convince people of the opposite? I don’t think so, you might.

    • Fredlinskip

      Don’t have a lot of time on my hands right now.
         Yes media was complicit. It would have taken a lot of courage and integrity for media following 9/11 to attempt to publish the truth and slow the momentum towards War. And there are not a lot of media sources with those qualities in America (they certainly would have faced ‘backlash’)
          The media sources that most lead the charge was those you believe to be so fair and balanced- Fox and Rush. Now that the “facts are in” so many years later, I don’t expect any apologies any time soon for their roles in the death and injury, and loss of treasure incurred.
          W administration could have dispelled the myths; instead they created and encouraged them for ideological purposes (mobile chemical factories, aluminum tubes, mushroom clouds, yellow cake, and yes Cheney’s attempts to tie Al Qaeda to 9/11).

      The point that started this discussion was my statement  that “there were no terrorists in Iraq before 9/11″
      And I see that my explanation for this comment:

       “the argument about whether Sadaam himself was a terrorist aside, my
      point was that anyone who dared resist in any way our occupation of
      their country (as you or I might if our country was invaded) was
      immediately labeled “terrorist”, subject to immediate execution or
      indefinite imprisonment.
           These “terrorists” did not exist before the invasion.”

      has gone unanswered.

      Perhaps this is an indication we are in actual agreement about something.

      • Gregg

        “W administration could have dispelled the myths; instead they created
        and encouraged them for ideological purposes (mobile chemical factories,
        aluminum tubes, mushroom clouds, yellow cake, and yes Cheney’s attempts
        to tie Al Qaeda to 9/11).”

        They both said over and over there were no ties between Iraq and 9/11. Bush even said it in NJ’s (allegedly damning) link and Cheney’s quote if not edited would have as well.

        500 metric tons of yellowcake were removed by our forces from Iraq.

        http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-07/us/iraq.uranium_1_yellowcake-uranium-cameco?_s=PM:US

        I am assuming you know Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11 and it was a typo.

        • Fredlinskip

          I agree that media was complicit in stoking the fires of War in Iraq.
          As you are well aware Fox and Rush lead that charge. I don’t expect an apology any time soon from them for the part they played in the injury & loss of life and treasure incurred at least in part due to the vast amount of misinformation that the American people were exposed to at that time. Nor do I expect any admission of wrong-doing from someone like yourself who has confessed in former conversations to worship at the shrine of Fox and Rush.
          I expect them to grasp at straws & divert the conversation in order to try and justify their earlier views, even though the facts “now in” refute those views.
          I’m not saying you’re the only one -there are millions out there like yourself that don’t care to know or won’t admit to themselves the truth.
             They just turn on Rush and Fox on another day and move on.

          • Gregg

            Ah the ‘ol Rush/Fox canard. BTW, I’ve never admitted to worshiping at the shrine of anyone, I’m just open to various viewpoints. I’ll put Rush or Fox up against CNN, NYT or NPR any day in regards to fairness and accuracy. You wouldn’t know because you’ve never listened. Either way it’s irrelevant.

            Did NPR report on the 500 tons of YellowCake?

          • Fredlinskip

            It’s obvious “you can’t handle the truth”, because as far as pre Iraq War “intelligence” is concerned, although old news, the truth is plain to see for anyone who cares open their eyes & look.

          • Gregg

            I’ll take that as a  “no”.

    • Anonymous

       You don’t strike me as a naive individual, so it surprises me that you would want to pretend to be one. You are correct. I have never seen a direct quote from a Bush administration official stating that “Iraq was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11.” I have, however, seen and heard a multitude of quotes from the administration declaring an absolute connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. I won’t try to enumerate them all but a 10 year old can find them on the web. For a full year and more before the start of “Shock and Awe,” or as I like to call it, “Aw,Shucks,” the Bush people took every opportunity they could to imply a connection to Bin Laden and his organization. Long after the U.S. intelligence community, as well as those of our western counterparts, debunked the idea of a connection between Bin Laden and Hussein the Bush folks continued to perpetuate this myth. In many of the interviews and speeches given by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell on Iraq, they invariably made sure to use the words “Al Qaeda” in asserting this non-existent connection, while knowing full well that these assertions were, let’s face it, lies. Why do you suppose that this was done? Why would the administration spend more than a year trying to convince the public of a Bin Laden-Saddam Hussein connection which they knew to be non-existent? Here’s why. In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, the American public was fearful and enraged. The administration knew that the frightened sheep could be convinced of any claims put forth by their protectors. Since most citizens would rather watch a reality show than read a newspaper or listen to thoughtful news commentary, these phony connections were bought completely by an intellectually lazy public. To this day there are millions of Americans who still believe that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. These people would not have made such a dubious connection without the Bush administration’s deliberate attempt to plant the belief. They’re not smart enough.               When officials repeat a demonstrable lie over, and over, and over again while knowing it to be a lie, the only purpose is to obfuscate and confuse. It is a campaign of misinformation and fear, designed to achieve a desired end. In this case their attempt to conflate Bin Laden, Hussein, and 9/11 looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc., etc., etc. 
                 As for administration statements denying these alliances, they came long after the dirty work had been done and the public was clamoring for war with this man who “attacked’ us. Most of the statements declaring a lack of connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq came after the invasion. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

      • Gregg

        I disagree completely. There were connections between Al Qaida and Iraq even if not to 9/11. The strategy was not something as small and petty as revenge (killing Bin Laden). It was about changing the face of the middle east, anything less is futile. The press never got that. I believe Iraq was an intolerable threat in a post 9/11 world.

        Many thought so as even before 9/11, like these:
        http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1051684/posts

        The two documents I’ve always contended give the best reality check to all the disinformation about Iraq are Bush’s speech to the UN Sept. 12, 2002 and The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. It was in part about humanitarian efforts. Regime Change in Iraq was already American ratified policy. There was no “rush to war”. It was not unilateral. There was consent of Congress, it was legal. There was plenty on the table and no need to trump up anything… and they didn’t.

        • Anonymous

          Read the 9/11 report. People who knew a lot more about this than you or I  state unequivocally that no connection existed between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Simply stating that there was a connection because it’s what you want to believe, despite overwhelming intelligence to the contrary is simply denial.

          • Gregg

            It’s not a matter of me wanting to believe anything. What I “want” is truth. I am aware of the report which was heavily caveated. It was also 8 years old. Al Qaeda was in Florida why wouldn’t they be in the safe haven of Iraq? How can it be known exactly what connections there were? Salmon Pac? How ’bout this:
            http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/wikileaks-iraq-al-qaeda-connection-confirmed-again_558271.html

            There are all kinds of connections but they mean little and prove nothing. Sadaam was not responsible for 9/11.

          • Anonymous

             What in the world does the age of the report have to do with anything. There are no caveats in the crystal clear statements about the lack of connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. You say you want the truth, yet you decide to ignore the findings provided by the exhaustive investigations of the 9/11 commission, a commission designed to give you the truth. I guess there’s no truth good enough for you.

          • Gregg

            The caveats were all of the “to this point(s)” and “as of yet(s)”. They left the door open which is why the age of the report is relevant. We’ve leaned a lot in the last 8 years as my link above shows. The point the report made that is most relevant to me is their conclusion that Radical Islamist were at war with us before we were at war with them.

          • Anonymous

             You’ve turned our conversation into a debate about the rightness or the wrongness of the invasion of Iraq, a conversation in which I have no interest at all. Ive been having that debate for nine years. As Kipling said, “East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet.” As I’ve already pointed out, our original disagreement was whether the Bush administration tried to dupe the public into believing Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks through  ties to Al Qaeda. You’re sure they didn’t. I know they did. Thank you for the spirited debate. It’s been a pleasure to exchange opinions with some one who knows how to think in complete sentences.

          • Gregg

            Fair enough and back atcha’. 

        • Anonymous

           Please explain to me how an intelligent person like you could allow yourself to be concerned with a dried up, hacked out old dictator whose military,  especially after 10 years of sanction induced debilitation, wouldn’t have been able to  defeat the Nebraska National Guard in a military confrontation. You say Iraq was an intolerable threat. Please describe that threat. Nuclear weapons? No! Chemical weapons? No! Biological weapons? No! The roundly disproved connection with Al Qaeda? No, but my guess is you’re going to stick with that one despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Remember the first gulf war and Iraq’s frightening, elite, Republican Guard. Whooo!, scary. How long did that ground war last? Three days? Five days? As I recall, we squashed them like bugs. We had a pretty easy time against their military in 2003, also. Giving allowances for the fear that existed in 2002 and 2003, how can anyone, after all we now know about conditions in pre-invasion Iraq STILL believe that this joke of a government with its impotent military and in possession of no Weapons of Mass Destruction, continue to believe Saddam Hussein was a GRAVE threat to anyone? In early 2002, when I first started hearing about Bush administration desires to overthrow Hussein, I was incredulous. MY first thought was, “You’ve got to be kidding me. Iraq? Really? They’re about as much of a threat to the world as El Salvador.” Apparently the attacks of 9/11  really did change everything, if they made us afraid of two-bit regimes like Hussein’s.

          • Gregg

            It was Clinton who made overthrowing the regime American policy with the “Iraq Liberation Act of 1998″. It was the UN that passed 17 UN resolutions that were violated. It was the 9/11 commission that said Hussein had Nuclear ambitions. We did remove 500 tone of Yellow cake. Hussein gassed his own people with Chemical weapons he evidently did not have. He was shooting at our jets daily. He attempted to assassinate our president. You talk about sanctions, are you kidding me? Look up “Oil for Food”. Hussein made a mockery of the sanctions and profited while his people continued to suffer. I don’t know why you harp on any 9/11 connection, everyone and their brother has denied any. I believe Gore would have done the same thing had he won.

          • Anonymous

            You stated that you still believe saddam was a grave threat. Knowing what we know now, please tell me the nature of that threat. And I harp on the 9/11 connection because you’re the one who originally claimed that the Bush administration made no connection when, clearly, as I  indicated in my long winded post above any clear thinking person realizes that’s exactly what they tried to dupe the public into believing.

          • Gregg

            I really thought I was clear about the threat, I would encourage you to read the speech linked above. He spells it out.

            Look, I believe the civilized world is not safe as long as brutal, brainwashing, jihad driven, generational, theocratic oppression is sponsored by willing dictators enabled by a feckless UN. I also think the enemy is passionately devoted to their mission and have made global advances that are alarming. As for everyone else, no place on earth had the paper trail as Iraq. Further, 50 million liberated in Iraq/Afghanistan and allies instead of enemies in the heart of the Middle East is an astounding start fragile as it is to the only real solution.

            As you wrote: You are correct. I have never seen a direct quote from a Bush
            administration official stating that “Iraq was directly involved in the
            attacks of 9/11.”
            Your position (please correct me) is they implied it and a stupid populace bought it. My position is what they actually said was mostly correct and the press inferred (being kind) the connection then foisted it on a populace that was capable of understanding but was not properly informed. We won’t agree.

          • Anonymous

            You’re right. We won’t agree.But thanks anyway.

          • Modavations

            The Iraq war was because the left refused to drill in the US.Energy wise we get 2.5 % from alternative energies,20% from nukes and the rest coal and oil.EPA signed off on the Keystone Pipeline(20,000 high paying jobs),but Pres.Obama bowed to the cult of Gaia.

          • Anonymous

            You just admitted to all of us sick, lefty moonbats that Bushes stated reasons for invading Iraq were disingenuous.  If Moda says it was all about oil, who am I to disagree?

          • notafeminista

            Wait, the dried up two bit regime that the Democrats and war opposition claimed was the sole stabilizing influence in the region?

            Good lord.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t give a damn about Democrats or the war opposition. History has shown Saddam Hussein to have been as much of a threat as Minnie Mouse. It’s fools like you and millions of others who wet you’re collective pants at the horrible thought of the doom presented by this awesome force. Eight years later and I’m still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me what that threat was.

          • notafeminista

            Well it sort of matters.  Was Hussein a stabilizing force in the region or not?

          • Anonymous

            Please illuminate me. Tell me why it matters.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Tell that to the Kurds he gassed.

          • Anonymous

            That was Fifteen years earlier. I asked about the level of threat he posed in 2003, not 1988. And let’s not pretend that we gave a damn about the Kurds. Because it was convenient for us, we  supported Iraq in it’s war with Iran, despite our full knowledge of  Hussein’s brutality. Why end a good friendship over a massacre or two.

        • Anonymous

           Please explain to me how an intelligent person like you could allow yourself to be concerned with a dried up, hacked out old dictator whose military,  especially after 10 years of sanction induced debilitation, wouldn’t have been able to  defeat the Nebraska National Guard in a military confrontation. You say Iraq was an intolerable threat. Please describe that threat. Nuclear weapons? No! Chemical weapons? No! Biological weapons? No! The roundly disproved connection with Al Qaeda? No, but my guess is you’re going to stick with that one despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Remember the first gulf war and Iraq’s frightening, elite, Republican Guard. Whooo!, scary. How long did that ground war last? Three days? Five days? As I recall, we squashed them like bugs. We had a pretty easy time against their military in 2003, also. Giving allowances for the fear that existed in 2002 and 2003, how can anyone, after all we now know about conditions in pre-invasion Iraq STILL believe that this joke of a government with its impotent military and in possession of no Weapons of Mass Destruction, continue to believe Saddam Hussein was a GRAVE threat to anyone? In early 2002, when I first started hearing about Bush administration desires to overthrow Hussein, I was incredulous. MY first thought was, “You’ve got to be kidding me. Iraq? Really? They’re about as much of a threat to the world as El Salvador.” Apparently the attacks of 9/11  really did change everything, if they made us afraid of two-bit regimes like Hussein’s.

    • Anonymous

       You don’t strike me as a naive individual, so it surprises me that you would want to pretend to be one. You are correct. I have never seen a direct quote from a Bush administration official stating that “Iraq was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11.” I have, however, seen and heard a multitude of quotes from the administration declaring an absolute connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq. I won’t try to enumerate them all but a 10 year old can find them on the web. For a full year and more before the start of “Shock and Awe,” or as I like to call it, “Aw,Shucks,” the Bush people took every opportunity they could to imply a connection to Bin Laden and his organization. Long after the U.S. intelligence community, as well as those of our western counterparts, debunked the idea of a connection between Bin Laden and Hussein the Bush folks continued to perpetuate this myth. In many of the interviews and speeches given by Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell on Iraq, they invariably made sure to use the words “Al Qaeda” in asserting this non-existent connection, while knowing full well that these assertions were, let’s face it, lies. Why do you suppose that this was done? Why would the administration spend more than a year trying to convince the public of a Bin Laden-Saddam Hussein connection which they knew to be non-existent? Here’s why. In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, the American public was fearful and enraged. The administration knew that the frightened sheep could be convinced of any claims put forth by their protectors. Since most citizens would rather watch a reality show than read a newspaper or listen to thoughtful news commentary, these phony connections were bought completely by an intellectually lazy public. To this day there are millions of Americans who still believe that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. These people would not have made such a dubious connection without the Bush administration’s deliberate attempt to plant the belief. They’re not smart enough.               When officials repeat a demonstrable lie over, and over, and over again while knowing it to be a lie, the only purpose is to obfuscate and confuse. It is a campaign of misinformation and fear, designed to achieve a desired end. In this case their attempt to conflate Bin Laden, Hussein, and 9/11 looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc., etc., etc. 
                 As for administration statements denying these alliances, they came long after the dirty work had been done and the public was clamoring for war with this man who “attacked’ us. Most of the statements declaring a lack of connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq came after the invasion. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!

  • notafeminista

    To feettothefire below: On second thought I think you might be right.  Thousands of Cubans fleeing civilization in fruit baskets, re-furbed Mercurys and cardboard boxes must be wrong. 

    Stalin!  Now there is a government of civilization.  Stick the uncivilized people out in Siberian gulags.

    And Hitler – the absolute epitome of civilization.

    Governments don’t MAKE anyone civilized.  People will be civilized or they will not.  

    • Anonymous

       There are several stop signs near my home, as well as red lights and speed limit signs. Without these traffic controls we know that countless yahoos would be flying down the road at ridiculous speeds, flying through busy intersections with abandon, and generally endangering themselves and everyone else. What at least reduces this behavior? Civilization, embodied in the rule of law, which cannot exist without government. The nasty, selfish, cruel impulses which exist ,to some degree, in all of us is tempered by the rule of law and the social contract that is civilization. Citing a few brutish regimes, the likes of which have existed throughout human history, and using them to epitomize your characterization of government is cheap and stupid.  

      • notafeminista

        Yahoos already fly through intersections with abandon. That’s why police officers write them tickets and accidents happen.  They chose to act as they did and clearly a stop sign didn’t…well….stop them.

        • notafeminista

          Furthermore exactly as you say, brutish regimes have existed throughout history, even with the so-called civilizing element of government, proving my point exactly.  People make choices.  The fact that you or I or the man in the moon don’t approve of their choices has no bearing on it whatsoever.

          • Anonymous

            Would you call the United States of America a brutish regime? My guess is, probably not. If this is so, why? Certainly you aren’t one of those holier than thou fools who believes Americans are born with some kind of  inborn superiority simply because of where we were lucky enough to have been born. Since we’re simply human, biologically no different from the rest of humanity, something else must have allowed us to become the mostly admirable, civilized nation that I’m sure we both believe we are. Given that there’s no biological or genetic component to our very civilized existence, could it be the form of government bequeathed to us by the founders over 200 years ago? If not, then what?

          • Fredlinskip

            Unregulated capitalism, low taxes, and corporate citizenship.

          • Anonymous

             You’re jab at corporate citizenship would be funny if it wasn’t so sad. My General Electric clothes iron, made specifically for sale in that all American outlet, Walmart, was made in China. My Texas Instruments calculator was made in Thailand. Every piece of electronic equipment as well as every piece of clothing I own was made overseas. I mean this literally. Every piece!! Even my wife’s L.L. Bean snow boots were made in El Salvador.  L.L. Bean for God’s sake. These are   America’s corporate citizens, sending the countries manufacturing industry elsewhere in order to save a buck. Corporations are people, my ass!

          • notafeminista

            Considering I was born 6 scant years before Roe v. Wade, I’m lucky to have been born at all.

            Very unscientific of you to suggest there is no biologic component to our civility. Implying humankind is no more civil (naturally) than wolves? (or any animal of your choice..)

          • Anonymous

            Please try to wrap your feeble mind around this. I know it will be hard for you, but try anyway. At no point did I imply that humankind is no more civil than wolves. I simply pointed out that “some” of mankind is dangerous and lawless. I guess you consider murderers, rapists, and thieves to be civil members of society. You, on the other hand, spent a significant chunk of time yesterday telling us all that altruism and aid to ones fellow humans were foolish acts and total self interest is a reasonable state in which to live. Despite the fact that any sociologist on the planet would decry the fallacy of this belief, YOU call ME unscientific. Maybe you should order that hat under glass for feet after all.

          • notafeminista

            I’m asking YOU why didn’t government (as you claim) civilize these folks.

          • Anonymous

            Government did not civilize these people for the same reason that chemo-therapy does not cure everyone. No system is perfect. Using you’re twisted logic, the fact that chemo does not cure everyone means it cures no one.  That would be wrong.

          • Anonymous

            Please try to work on your reading skills. What I suggested was the notion that “Americans” have no more inborn civility than the rest of humanity. Contrary to what you implied, I have a very good understanding of the biological imperative of civil behavior. I also understand the need for a system of laws to keep in check the few who would fall short of this imperative. Who shall administer these laws? Fairies?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The Lazy Fairies of Moda’s world?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            MANY children HAVE been born SINCE Roe v Wade! 
               I remember the horror stories of abortions before Roe v Wade, that killed several girls and women, made them unable to have children when they were ready, and maimed them for life! 
               MOSTLY HYPOCRITES  oppose Roe v Wade, and legal abortion.  

        • Anonymous

           Most people don’t fly through intersections. Most people do stop at stop signs. Most people don’t break the law at all. Most people obey most laws because they’re… well… the law, which is a construct of the civilizing effect of government. Every criminal activity on the books would increase to unimaginable levels if they weren’t, in fact, criminal. Chaos would rule our lives, which it doesn’t, because of the stabilizing effect of the laws set down by governments. For every jerk who runs a given stop sign, how many drivers would you guess stop? That’s the stabilizing effect of the law at work. Laws are established by governments. Government is the cornerstone of civilization.

          • notafeminista

            Or it wouldn’t.  Or are you suggesting that humans by nature are unable to control their behavior?  Pretty Hobbesian.  Explains a lot though.

          • Anonymous

            I never made any claims about the nature of “all” humans. I’m suggesting that many humans “are” unable to control their behavior, or choose not to. Have you ever heard of prisons. They’re full of people who couldn’t or chose not to control their behavior. Who imprisons them? The milkman? No. Governments do. Is it your  belief that government imposed incarceration of dangerous people is a bad thing?

          • notafeminista

            As I said, government doesn’t civilize us at all.  It merely imprisons the more unruly of us.

          • Anonymous

            I can make statements on this page which in other nations would land me in prison or on the scaffold. If the government of our country had wanted to they could long ago  have enacted laws allowing that to be the case.   We didn’t do that. We opted for a civilized nation of laws designed to assure freedom and justice. Only fools hear the word government and envision one monolithic form, the same the world over. Would those fools rather have  lived in the old Soviet Union, with it’s repressive form of government, or the U.S. with the form of government established by Thomas Jefferson and his friends?

          • Anonymous

            Your comments are a great example of the red herring argument. It amazes me on how one can go on about the idea of what makes a civil society and be so wrong.
            You cannot have one without laws, (traffic laws are a one good example) laws define us to some extent. We need to be held accountable by laws are above the reporach of status or position.

            “Ignorance and inconsideration are the two great causes of the ruin of mankind.”

            I think all should read this work by John Adams, from which the above quote is from:
            A Dissertation on the Canon and Feudal Law

            http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=43

          • Modavations

            There are two types in the world.Those who pray at the alter of government and those who have faith in the individual.Communist against Laissez Faire

          • Anonymous

            Sorry but I disagree as things are just not that black and white. And being that communism has all but died it seems as if history and the facts are more in support of my observation. I for one do not worship, as you say, at the alter of government. I’m not a huge fan of government and I’m not trusting of it. However I do see a need for it and I want it to work better, not be some kind of small ineffectual appendage.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Robbers, muggers, rapists, child-molesters, and MANY other criminals have faith in the individual, them, and NO faith that government will catch up with them, or exact any justice from the criminal!  Even a family must have a form of government, to survive!  Faith in the individual, and Notafeminista’s ‘Each person for their own selfish interests’ , without some form of government won’t last long, anywhere!

          • Anonymous

            I’m sorry i don’t have a more Laissez-Faire attitude about the millions of criminals the government has incarcerated for crimes such as murder, armed robbery, rape, etc., etc. Maybe we should have more faith in them and repudiate the evil government for having the nerve to try to protect us from them. Bad  government. Bad!

          • notafeminista

            More to the point, why didn’t the government civilize these millions of miscreants?

          • Zero

            I guess you didn’t take my advice and look up two~value logic.  It is a flawed way of thinking.  Try infinite~value logic.

    • Anonymous

      Hitler and Stalin were brutal, evil despots ruling terrible dictatorships. If you consider these demented examples to be the epitome of civilization, I guess you must consider the United States to be an inferior civilization. Find the words brutal, evil, despot, or dictatorship in any definition of civilization, anywhere, and I’ll eat the hat of your choice.

      • notafeminista

        The Communist Manifesto.  Article II.    Top Hat please.  Black silk if you don’t mind.

        • Anonymous

          Wrong, yet again. As ridiculous as the very idea of communism was, nowhere in section II of his manifesto does Marx claim that despotic brutality is the cornerstone of civilization. Nor did his idea of communism, as pie in the sky as it was, have anything to do with the horrific actions perpetrated on the Russian people by Stalin. You can keep the hat.

          • notafeminista

            “The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
            Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.”

            Hat please.

          • Anonymous

            As I said earlier, in case you missed it, communism was a foolish idea. Marx may have believed that despotic measures were necessary in the initial stage of a revolutionary change, as is usually the case in revolutions. Remember the guillotine? At no time , However, did he claim that a stable civilization requires despotic rule to survive. Quite the contrary. As I wrote earlier, he envisioned a ridiculous, discredited, utopian world of cooperation and social bliss.  No hat yet. And, by the way, if the best example you can come up with is some dismally flawed philosophy from the nineteenth century, pretty sad.   

          • notafeminista

            In the initial stage of a revolution to establish a society.  Sounds like a cornerstone to me.

            Asked and answered sir (and promptly, much to your chagrin)  One hat under glass for feet please, waiter.

          • Anonymous

             The “initial stage of a revolution” does not represent a stable civilization. The initial stage of revolution represents an attempt to establish stable civilization. That’s why revolutions take place. Otherwise the guillotines would still be chopping away. And, believe me, chagrin is an emotion you’ll never elicit from me. Giggles, maybe. But never chagrin. I’ve still got a mean hankerin’ fer some hat.

          • notafeminista

            Thanks for understanding exactly what I said…and apparently agreeing.

            Garcon?

  • Dee

    I agree with the caller who said what Romney is selling is the
    same old Republican trickle down exonomics which has failed
    repeatedly to provide jobs and opportunities for the working
    class and has only lined the pockets of the 1 % percent and 
    left the 99 % percent behind….
     
    Indeed, Romney is example of this himself….having increased
    his wealthy at the expense of the working class and govern-
    ment tax cuts and loopholes. Incredible , and this is what he
    pledges to continue –extend the Bush era tax cuts and tax Americans businesses at the same rate as European business.
     
    I imagine, this is what he calls “freedom” in addition to weaken-
    ing EPA standards that have been shamelfull laxed during the
    Bush Era….and are poisoning our air, water and soil daily and
    contributing to Global Warming….See the URL below.
     
    I believe Bob Herbert, former columnist for the New York Times
    had it right when he asked , Why are people listening the Re-
    publicans again?  He felt they belonged in Rehab not elective office and certainly not steering public policy….Dee

    P.S. Obama should say to the American people …..

    We cannot afford “the same old same old from Republican leaders”. “We have to share the wealth and responsiblity”.
    (We need a new business model for America….)

    The Same Old Song, Bob Herbert, New York Times…  
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/opinion/27herbert.html
     
    Bracing for New Emission Rule , New York Times
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/business/energy-environment/26emissions.html

    • Senator-in-waiting

      Romney may have benefited from some loopholes but I don’t fault how he achieved his success; I fault our politicians who created the tax system from which Bain Co. reaped outsized returns. But everyone has sacred cows, and it is now time to start creating some extra hamburger for those who are starving.

      What is the “same old, same old” anyway? Doesn’t matter to me whether Republican or Democrat, the incredibly dishonest “Carried Interest” tax dodge exemplifies the chism of “fairness” between the 99 and the 1%. What percentage of Goldman Sachs partners vote Democrat (much more than 50% it is said!). Pro-Dem groups like Unions and George Soros legally “bribe” many candidates with PAC or PAC-like donations, too. Municipal workers are imploding the retirement system by jacking up take home pay through “road safety” duty (why do we need 20 or 30 year State Troopers flagging vehicles or more likely sitting in idling cruisers??) “filling in for supervisor” and “disability” pay, miraculously all jammed into their last 3 years on the job?? Did not Barney Frank do his own share of damage by levering up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to the precipice (and the subsequent fall) by pushing home ownership and mortgages on people with completely inapproriate credit profiles?

      Lots of people, of every political stripe are gaming the system. And who is at the top? Nearly all politicians — per Wiki, 40% of our current Senators are officially Millionaires. Did you know that US Senators also make $174,000 salary each year, base? And that most retire at 70% or more of their average take home pay the last three years of their career (That is OVER 100k retirement from US role alone, not counting all their other income sources, like first careers, lobbying, speaking and writing incomes)? Vesting occurs in 5 short years. With great benefits for medical, dental and vision?? This does not count the incredible housing, travel allowances, or the many perqs of committee leadership, etc. Like John Boenher doing “diplomatic” work in Burma?? Almost all Politicians are now professionals and regardless of Party affiliation are feeding at the trough.

      I think we need more balance and equity in the US, but this should be done with level-field taxation for EVERYONE, and hard investment (and evaluative metrics!) of our schools, government agencies and services, housing vouchers and other entitlements. SS needs to be phased out once someone reaches, say, 100k or 150k income, for instance (and I would thus loose mine…); same for benefiting from the Medicare system on some basis — like higher co-pays for the wealthy; or losing mortgage deductions when loan value is over the Jumbo level (I would lose out here, too). But anyone without a real disability who is still getting food stamps, housing vouchers and unemployment after 3 years needs is just not trying. I am tired of paying them, and politicians who don’t effect change.

      Let’s clean out the House and Senate next fall! If we could actually get more than 40% of the electorate to go to the polls, we have a chance. Or, consider running for local office yourself!! I am, if not just for the salary and benes!

  • Modavations

    Here’s a list of the Left’s exalted government…..
    1.Hitler-National Workers Socialist Party(NAZI)2-5million killed
    2.Stalin-20 million killed
    3.Mao-40 million killed
    4.Pol Pot Cambodia-3 million killed,or one third of the population.
    5.Minor deities of the Left….Honnecker,Ceacescu(?),Hoxha,Tito,Fidel,Chavez, 1,000,000 killed

    American Leftist Welfare state……
    The soft genocide of the American Black.

    PS-Terry TT,as NPR newest Stalker in training,this is your cue for the Mercury ,Pervert Priest and Greedy Rich routine.

    • Gregg

      Levin has a book about it coming out.

      • Modavations

        Carl has had an epiphany??????

        “J” Terry,just a “J”

    • Modavations

      Excuse me,I meant to say in my opinion Terry is the new,aspiring resident stalker.A person who,no matter what you post bleats,Moda ate Mercury,but makes no intellectual statement.in other words,petty name calling

      • Terry Tree Tree

        If others look at my comments in the past, I believe they will find several intellectual statements, and SEVERAL dismissive and incoherent comments by you.

        • Modavations

          NPR’s newest Stalker(in my opinion) is here like a Pavlovian Dog.I can show you reams of “Moda ate Mercury”,without any intellectual argument.In other words,name calling.

          • Anonymous

            Oh you poor chap. That left wing ruffian should be shown what for…

          • Modavations

            At least make an attempt at an intellectual riposte

    • Fredlinskip

      Attempting “civilized” conversation and debate with you two is like trying to do so with folks that claim they are well-informed because they regularly watch the cartoon network.

      The cartoon network does have about as much credibility as Fox (run by Aires, a GOP political strategist for numerous campaigns long BEFORE Fox) and Rush (obviously a FAR right-wing nut).

      IMO.

      • Modavations

        What does this bring to the conversation,.Defend the Left’s record please.

    • Zero

      How did Hitler become a lefty?  Oh yeah, that great historian Glenn Beck called him one.  Hitler was as right wing as you can get.  Read a book.

      Also, if you fear totalitarianism, then why do you defend the republican party who is impeding voter rights all over the country, cutting funding to courts which causes the poor to have unequal representation and unaffordable court fees, a voucher system that would allow tax payer money to go to religious schools and institutes (Muslim schools included if republicans consider Islam a religion (read Animal Farm)), and finally they are the out and front defenders of a society that has allowed a few amount of people (bankers & politicans) to accumulate most of the nation’s wealth while others fall out of the middle class and into poverty.  You have no problem with people suffering in the American economy and you like it, you like the division of wealth and power.  There is no set ideology that causes suffering, but there is are people who defend the principles of democracy and there are others who are frustrated by democracy.  I grew up in Jacksonville, FL and I watched conservatives get angry when Jesse Jackson registered black people and got them to vote…what Jackson was doing was the essence of democracy…what the conservatives revealed was a frustration with democracy.  But I’m not trying to essentualize all conservatives because I have seen plenty of conservatives that believe everybody should vote no matter what.

      You see, Moda, words like “totalitarianism” and “democracy” aren’t in your active vocabulary because you really don’t know what they mean.  You don’t know what democracy is, and you don’t know how to defend it.

      You also wrote, “American Leftist Welfare state……
      The soft genocide of the American Black.”

      Jim Demint said the same kind of thing on Stewart the other night, blaming liberal policy for an underclass of American poverty.  That’s pretty stupid since he is from red as can be South Carolina where poverty is probably only second to red as can be Mississippi.  You think the South has a stronger democracy than the North? 

      • Anonymous

        Great rebuff of that chaps weird world view.
        I must say that it’s a waste of time. No matter how much evidence you point to about Hitler being a fascist and that they viewed communism and socialism as abhorrent, this guy will keep telling you that Hitler was a lefty because it fits his demagoguery of the left.

        It is also interesting to note that poverty in Mississippi, Alabama and Demint’ sate of South Carolina is amoung some of the worst in the nation. That they are all in red highly conservative states is also something that seems to escape the right wing ideologues when the subject is broached.
        But they will use language to brow beat and try to evade the points by accusing you of being some kind of socialist or left wing Maoist, Trotsky, or any other kind ism.

        To understand fascism and their hatred of socialism and communism, one only needs to read up on the Spanish civil war to get a good idea on what side Hitler and the nazi party came down on. Alas, this is a waste of time as this chap is not interested in history or facts.

        • Modavations

          Why won’t you give poor kids vouchers?

          • Zero

            I addressed vouchers–tax payer money going to religious schools is unconstitutional. 

          • Modavations

            Excuses.The seperation of Church and State means no Church of England.I have a Muslim Client in Vt.who sends his kids to parochial school.His wife wears a veil and says she’s way more interested in education.

          • Anonymous

            Huh?

          • Zero

            You should really read Animal Farm.  The court makes an unambiguous decisions that Churches shall remain separate from the state and vise versa, and you come along and add some sort of extra-narrative, “Oh, the courts only met English Churches, but Southern Baptists are just fine to mingle with government.”  You are really stupid and filled with hubris.  

          • Modavations

            Orwell hated Democrats.He described the Democrat Poltiboro types like this.All animals are created equal,but some more so then others.

          • Zero

            But he was liberal-minded.  Democrat and republican are just names, not conditions of thought and morality.

          • Anonymous

            You just make this stuff up as you go along.
            It’s amazing, you sound like a 10 year old on the play ground spinning yarns.

          • Modavations

            I’m a “Heeb” and my mother said the same friggin thing.”I don’t care about Priests I want and educated son”.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Reads weird!!

        • Zero

          I really hate these hyperbolic conversations ‘Moda’ starts up.  They distract from real economic discussions.  I debated replying to him or her, but perhaps I am foolishly ambitious enough to think that I could write the right sentence to dissolve his utopic point of view. 

          And yes, any kind of kind-ism is blindly being branded as demonic socialism.  I’m not a Christian, but the Bible has one of the most beautiful messages ever expressed–one is immoral to allow suffering when one has the means to stop it.    

          • Modavations

            The road to hell is paved with good intention.When Moynihan told LBJ,beware the unintended consequence(driving away the black male head of house hold),Democrats called him rascist.In the general population 70% of black kids are born into fatherless households,it’s 90% in the ghettos(all run by Democrat Solons).Mr Zero,government makes a horrible daddy.One could say, they bat ZERO

          • Zero

            Thanks for your cliched advice.  I’ll rethink the philosophy of letting people suffer more in order for them to rise out of poverty.  And I am sure there is room for a middle class in a winner and loser society.  And I have read a lot of history, and you are right: making people suffer more has never caused a revolution.

            And even though it is perfectly sound economics to raise taxes on the rich to lower the deficit, lower college tuition, employee construction workers, and pay teachers proper wages–that is all demonic socialism and lies…democrats really want to burn down churches, eat babies, euthanize your grandmother, and murder the rich and give all the money to black people.  You got me there.    

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The institution of slavery, which separated families for money for the slave-owner, and the Jim Crow Laws, Poll Taxes, and ALL the other policies that demeaned and intenionally interfered with black family cohesion, were FAR more to blame, and lasted FAR longer!

      • Terry Tree Tree

        TELLING!!

        • Modavations

          What does that bring to the conversation.Justs ants rubbing their antenena(?)Make an intellectual point please.If not,just hit the “like”button.

      • Modavations

        The germ in is the philosophy.Hitler,Stalin,Mao,Pol Pot all start as well meaning Socialist-Communists.You guys always swear off Hitler.What’s the difference between the oven and the reindoctrination camp?

        • Zero

          No, the germ in those people’s philosophy is that none of them believed in democracy.  And you obviously never read anything on Hitler–Hitler hated communism. 

          • Modavations

            Let’s try this again.NAZI=National Workers Socialist Party.Do you think he had the fortsight to be messing  with our hands 50 years in the future?Mousillini(?)was the editor of Trento’s socialist paper ,Avanti(and no I’m not going to tell you where Trento is!!!).Please explain the difference between the oven,the gulag and the reeducation camp

          • Zero

            I have explained this to you already–National Workers are the Aryans–they are socialist in that they did not allow the Jews to enter the free market, and they used their wealth to pay for highways.  Hitler expressed great desire to have unfettered capitalism after the final solution.  Hitler sent all the communists in Germany to the death camps.

            ——————————————

            Imposing a surtax on the richest 400 Americans to fund Obamacare is not Nazism.  Making sure 50 million people have healthcare is not Nazism.  Obamacare will save at least 20,000 lives a year…is that Nazism? 

            Are you starting to see how stupid you are? 

            ———————————————–
            As for the latter part of your comment: did any of those guys believe in democracy?  Did Hitler believe in democracy?  No.  Again, forget about your ideology and follow the principles of democracy–and democracy includes liberal opinion. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            CONSERVATIVE= one that saves, environment, money by being thrifty, words, material, resources, etc…
            CHRISTIAN= one that is trying hard to be like Jesus Christ of the New Testament, compassionate, caring, helpful, leading by example, loving ALL men and women, teaching kindness by example, etc…
            MANY ‘conservatives’ have FEW, if any of those qualities.
               They PREACH them, but NOT by example!

          • Anonymous

            By this logic North Korea, China, and Iran are republics. 

        • Anonymous

          What? Who was poly-sci professor at BC?
          Alfred E. Newman?

      • Modavations

        I was a political science major at B.C.

        • Anonymous

          You have to be kidding. Did you miss those days in class when they were studying the rise of fascism in Europe? 

        • Anonymous

          I won’t be sending my kids to B.C.

          • Anonymous

            Don’t paint the entire institution due to one, how shall I say this, due to one who was not paying attention or somehow misinterpreted the information with a kind of intellectual dyslexia.  

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Guppies lead the classes!

          • Modavations

            40000 applied for two thousand openings last year.I get the alumni propaganda weekly

          • Anonymous

            So?

          • Anonymous

            Someone quick. WARN THEM!!!

          • Modavations

            You are the same guys who call Professor Lindzer,Sloan Chair MIT,invalid.If my schooling was at Harvard you’d still make the same snide reply

          • Anonymous

            No, we make the snide replies because your insipid idiot.

          • Modavations

            I’m going to go watch Meteorstorm on SyFy.That’s more intellectual then being name called by “reactionaries.

          • Anonymous

            Please do. Anything that frees us of your stupidity is fine in my book.

          • Anonymous

            “Reactionary” is a term which typically applies to the most conservative among us. Are you trying to make friends, Moda? How sweet.

        • Anonymous

          Where is Bumpkin College exactly? Is it some remedial school for child lead paint eaters? I have to agree with Jeffe. If you were a PoliSci major, then your professor was Alfred E Newman.

    • Anonymous

      The thoughtful, intelligent conservatives who post to this board, many of whom present perfectly reasonable positions on many issues, must cringe at the thought of having this incoherent buffoon as an ally.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        They have all sought guidance from  Moda, along with Barney Frank, Hillary Clinton, and a HOST of other celebrities, and important people, according to Moda’s own posts here in the past~!  In his own mind, he is THE authority on EVERYTHING?
            You can tell how accurate he is, by his assertion that I am 100% WRONG about EVERYTHING!   Is that possible?  Does EVERYONE agree with him about that?
            Can he be right, that I  know nothing about Volunteer Fire Fighting, which I have been doing for over 23 years?

      • Gregg

        I don’t mean to imply anyone here would consider me to be one of the “intelligent conservatives who post to this board” or think I “present perfectly reasonable positions on many issues” but I get a kick out of Modavations and am proud to be on his side. We don’t agree on a few things including our choice for President but he brings it and I appreciate that. Plus, he’s a hoot. What’s not to like?

        • Anonymous

          Fair enough. Unfortunately the rest of us must engage in constant evasive maneuvers in a futile attempt to dodge his inanities, or if we must, risk brain implosion in our futile attempts to figure out what the Hell he’s trying to say.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Since Moda forgets (We know why), to put the “J” that he promised, WAY too often, we take his “J” statements as an attempt at truth?

          • Anonymous

            please explain this “J” stuff to me. I missed it earlier.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Moda said that  he would put a “J” by any comment of his that was meant in jest, to make it easier for us unedumacated to understand that he wasn’t really serious about the statement.  He brags about ingestion of mercury and lead in his childhood, as proving that they were not dangerous, because they didn’t affect him!  Then he posts things that he says he meant in jest, and keeps forgetting the “J”, because of the lead and mercury, I guess?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      What about your obsession with ‘going limp-wristed’ at the mention of several men, including Barney Frank?

      • Modavations

        Wjhat does this bring to the conversation

        • Anonymous

          You should be asking yourself that question every time you post.

    • ulTRAX

      I have a different take from your laughingly simplistic if not utterly naive view of history. First Hitler
      wasn’t a Leftist any more than Stalin was. It doesn’t matter what the Nazi Party called itself. You call yourself well educated when clearly you’re this forum’s Village Idiot.

      I’d argue neither Lenin, Stalin or Mao were Marxists. True they certainly used Marxist
      language but we SHOULD know anyone can expropriate any belief system for their own purposes. Were Jim Jones or Bush2 Christians or just mentally ill persons using Christian language? Is someone a patriot because they wrap themselves in the flag as they blow up federal buildings? 

      We in the US are intellectually incapable of having a rational discussion about Marxism. Marx was a historical determinist and believed defined stages of history created the conditions, the changes in consciousness, necessary for the next stage. Capitalism would lead to Socialism, then to Communism. Lenin and Mao didn’t believe in Marx’s determinism and tried to skip the capitalist stage and force peasant societies directly into Socialism.

      I do suspect both were also sociopathic or megalomaniacal. It’s difficult to see core mental illness when someone is so identified with a cause or ideology. Delusions of infallibility are part of the human condition. Some are more deluded, convinced they are driven by forces greater than themselves… History, God, race, science, nationalism, whatever. Sometimes we need to strip away the language… and look at the person than a simplistic Left/Right dichotomy. But since you’re lost in your own delusions of infallibility, I won’t hold my breath you’ll ever show any sophisticated insights into anything.   

  • Gregg
    • Modavations

      There is no way in a million years that could be on the level and not planned.Could it??????????

      • Gregg

        Hard to say but it’s funny. She reminds me of some folks around here.

  • Modavations

    Far from being open minded.Today’s Democrat is yesterdays,Reactionary.The last real Dem.was JFK.Google his economic speeches.The Democrat Party should be renamed the Dependency party.The modus operendi is Keeping poor people poor.

    • ulTRAX

      You CLAIM to have been a PoliSci major yet, as with most things, seem absolutely oblivious to the artificial dynamics our braindead two party system has
      created.

      In the US there’s no real Left or Right. The parties are broad coalitions, where sometimes one constituent group gains an advantage and changes the power structure within the party. Add in triangulation where parties… or dominant constituent groups within a party, steal issues from the other side… and what do we get?

      Clinton and the DLC moved the Dems to the Right to go after those corporate dollars. So to call the Dems as a Party “the left” is laughable. The GOP decided to borrow from future taxpayers to buy off votes today with irresponsible tax cuts. So is today’s GOP the fiscally responsible GOP of  Barry Goldwater? Or do they just use the same language while embracing fiscal irresponsibility… hoping a fiscal crisis they created is the best strategy to undo the New Deal and the rest of the Democratic safety net?

      Are the Dems the “dependency party”? Hardly, but it’s the only narrative the Right has to create the resentment needed, along with their own created fiscal crisis, to dismantle this safety net.

      The real reason there is growing inequality in the US is that the Right’s policies like free trade and deregulation… practiced by both deluded DLC Dems and the nutcase Right, have taken hold. Ya, sorry about that little economic crash in 08. But then if spun right, the Orwellian Right can again claim the GOP was blameless and it was the Dems and the poor… seeking home loans they could not afford, that are to blame. And since they brought down the economy, that’s even ANOTHER reason to abolish the safety net!

      “Vengeance is ours!” says the guilty party! And all the guilty agree!!

       

  • Modavations

    Paolo caruso….What happened to the Captain going down with the ship

  • Modavations

    Jesus walked by the Democrats with their Soup Kitchen and Section 8 and said to the assembled mass,let me teach you to fish

    • Zero

      Perhaps we should raise taxes on the rich (a plus in Jesus’s book) and use the new revenues to bring down the cost of college and raise scholarship funding.

    • Anonymous

      If you try real hard you can find many other things Jesus said. MY guess is you won’t post those statements.

    • ulTRAX

      In your war against reality, it comes as no surprise that you’d bastardize this too.

      The Bible actually says Jesus, when faced with a crowd of about 5000 hungry people who had come to hear him, did NOT tell everyone to fish for themselves… nor did he want everyone go into town and buy food in the market. Jesus provided for them all through a miracle.

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6%3A30-44&version=NIV

      I await a retraction but I won’t hold my breath. That requires intellectual integrity.

      As I said before Moda, when you act like an obnoxious idiot, make false claims and allegations, constantly post off topic, refuse to retract and keep reposting false information when proven wrong, act as if this board is your private clubhouse, etc… people aren’t “stalking” you.

      You’re INVITING justified derision.

      • Anonymous

        BRAVO!!!!

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Actually, he’s DEMANDING it sometimes!

    • ulTRAX

      This should come as no surprise to those who read your blather, you’re also wrong in attributing this “teach a man to fish” quote to Jesus. It fact it’s not even Biblical. The origins are unknown!

  • Anonymous

    Dear Modavations, on behalf of all the looney, lefty, moonbats, I’d like to take this moment to welcome you to the club. your embrace,earlier, of the lefts perpetual contention that Bush’s war in Iraq was about oil shows real willingness to be open minded. Once again, welcome aboard, comrade.

  • Anonymous

    And yet again lefty hero Modavations  comes to the aid of the crazed lefties. With his contention that the founding fathers were referring only to the Church of England on the issue of separation of church and state, he implies his belief that The Constitution of The United states of America is a, breathing, changing, malleable document, subject to interpretation based on current day standards and mores. As we all know, this belief is anathema to conservative thinkers. Thank you once again, brother Moda, for your magnanimous support.

  • david

    National debt has hit $15.2Trillion.
    Our debt to GDP is now 100%.
    Debt for Dummies 101
    * For every $1 the Govt. spends equals $1 plus interest “WE” who pay taxes must pay back!!!!!
    * The new Kennedy updated slogan
    ” Ask not what I can do for my country BUT ask what my country can do for ME!!!
    We love to get but we hate to give back.

  • Anonymous

    He likes us. Moda really likes us. I’m so happy.

    • Modavations

      Boy oh boy1:47AM,that’s some good Meth!!!!It seems to be unbalancing you a bit.Talk to TRFX about dosing,he likes his Meth.too.”J” Terry,just a “J”

      • Anonymous

        Meth?It was crank.

  • Fredlinskip

    In a rare breach of security, the top secret Pre- Iraq War discussion at pentagon of top W officials and top US brass HAS BEEN LEAKED!:

    WE ARE FINALLY PRIVY TO THE HIGH-POWERED OFFICIAL W REASONING FOR THE LOSS OF LIFE AND TREASURE OVER IN IRAQ!:

    “They’s there. We’s here. We’s bad! AND

     WE’S DON’T NEED NO FRIGGIN’ PERMISSION SLIP!”

    • Gregg
      • ulTRAX

        Gregggg, you claimed you’re interested in “truth” but we see again that you’re only interested in justifying the policies of the GOP and the Right regardless of the truth.

        Several months ago I shot down this claim about UNSC 1441 and posted the actual language.

        1441 did NOT grant the US authority to attack Iraq. The US asked for the language but it was NEVER ratified. The UNSC left that decision about serious consequences to itself.

        • Gregg

          After 12 years and 16 resolutions there were no “serious consequences” left after the inspectors were kicked out in 98. Clinton was right with his regime change policy. Plus I don’t care about the UN as much as the Congressional approval. Idiot.

  • notafeminista

    To feettothefirebelow:  I did not say acts of charity were foolish.  True altruism however is all but non-existent as humans are self-interested FIRST.  You simply cannot care for someone else if you cannot care for yourself.

  • Anonymous

    It’s not tough moral terrain.  It’t the tortured logic of trying to defend the indefensible. It was nice hearing the psychopath point of view. Too bad you felt compelled to interrupt them, trying to sanitize the whole enterprise. http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/16/murderous-marines/

  • hennorama

ONPOINT
TODAY
Jul 31, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin heads the Cabinet meeting in the Novo-Ogaryovo residence, outside Moscow, Russia, Wednesday, July 30, 2014.  (AP)

The US and Europe face off against Russia. Are we looking at Cold War II? Something hotter?

Jul 31, 2014
A comical sign suggest the modern workplace is anything but collegial . (KW Reinsch / Flickr)

When the boss is a bad apple. How some pretty dark traits can push some to the top.

RECENT
SHOWS
Jul 30, 2014
Janitta Swain, Writer/Exec. Producer/Co-Director Dinesh D'Souza, John Koopman, Caroline Granger and Don Taylor seen at the World Premiere of 'America: Imagine The World Without Her' at Regal Cinemas LA Live on Monday, June 30, 2014, in Los Angeles, CA. (AP)

Conservative firebrand Dinesh D’Souza says he wants an America without apologies. He’s also facing jail time. We’ll hear him out.

 
Jul 30, 2014
Smoke and fire from the explosion of an Israeli strike rises over Gaza City, Tuesday, July 29, 2014. Israel escalated its military campaign against Hamas on Tuesday, striking symbols of the group's control in Gaza and firing tank shells that shut down the strip's only power plant in the heaviest bombardment in the fighting so far. (AP)

Social media is changing how the world sees and talks about Israel and Gaza, Israelis and Palestinians. We’ll look at the impact.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
Criticism, Conservatism And Dinesh D’Souza
Thursday, Jul 31, 2014

Best-selling conservative author and filmmaker Dinesh D’Souza and On Point host Tom Ashbrook disagree about what makes America great…or do they?

More »
2 Comments
 
This 15-Year-Old Caller Is Really Disappointed With Congress
Tuesday, Jul 29, 2014

In which a 15-year-old caller from Nashville expertly and elegantly analyzes our bickering, mostly ineffective 113th Congress.

More »
6 Comments
 
Our Week In The Web: July 25, 2014
Friday, Jul 25, 2014

Why the key to web victory is often taking a break and looking around, and more pie for your viewing (not eating) pleasure.

More »
Comment