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How The Granite State Went From Blue To Red

How New Hampshire went from Democratic blue to Republican red and what other sates are swinging in 2012.

2008 popular vote by county. Brighter red represents a higher percentage of the vote for McCain, while darker blue represents a higher percentage of the vote for Obama. (Mark Newman, University of Michgan)

2008 popular vote by county. Brighter red represents a higher percentage of the vote for McCain, while darker blue represents a higher percentage of the vote for Obama. (Mark Newman, University of Michgan)

On Point is broadcasting live this hour with NPR from the Comfort Inn in Manchester, N.H.

For years, New Hampshire was known as rock-ribbed red Republican.  In the last decade, it turned bright blue Democrat.  Until 2010.  When the Tea Party/GOP tidal wave hit Capitol Hill and Congress, it hit many state’s political profiles even harder – and none harder than New Hampshire’s.

A massive blue to red, Democratic to Republican shift.  If that big swing holds in 2012 in New Hampshire and across the country, it will be tough sledding for President Obama’s re-election.

This hour, On Point:  blue to red, red to blue… swinging states in 2012.  We’re live from New Hampshire.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

James Pindell, political director of WMUR.com at WMUR-TV in New Hampshire, where he writes the “Political Scoop” blog.

Ron Brownstein, editorial director and columnist for the National Journal. Author of The Second Civil War: How Extreme Partisanship has Paralyzed Washington and Polarized America.

Neil Levesque, executive Director of the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at St. Anselm College.

Jack Beatty, On Point news analyst.

From Tom’s Reading List

The New York Times “Undeclared voters can vote in the primaries for either party, and between 35 and 40 percent of them are expected to turn out for the New Hampshire primary on Tuesday, according to separate analyses by Andy Smith at the University of New Hampshire and David Paleologos at Suffolk University in Boston, both of them longtime students of New Hampshire voting patterns.”

Boston Globe “Of all the states swept up in the Republican wave that washed across most of the nation this month, New Hampshire may be the most surprising. After trending Democratic for several election cycles, the Granite State was inundated by the great GOP tide.”

The Washington Post “Republicans picked up at least 675 state legislative seats Nov. 2. As with the increases in the House, that gain is the biggest any party has made in state legislative seats since 1938 and is far larger than the GOP’s tally in its 1994 landslide. Given the distribution of those gains, Republicans have the power to work their will in the states in ways they can’t begin to think about doing in Washington.”

Photos

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  • Plain old Cory

    People mostly will vote for whomever they believe will directly benefit them the most, ideology and philosophy be damned.

    This is why the US has become more a marketplace than a nation.

    • Guest

      We need to revisit what constitutes an EDUCATED VOTER?  I suppose we have about 20%, at the most, of the populace who qualify.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Because New Hampshire wants to have another Great Recession.

  • Guest

    As the educational level falls, the populace fails and hears salvation from Republicans.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    I read that most New Hampshire voters chose their candidate at the last minute.  How fickle and uniformed are these voters in the US.   A back slap and smile determines their vote.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Respectfully sir, you have no clue.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        Actually,  I am considerably more well-read than most people in the US.   I view all perspectives and dig deep into biographies, legislation and published articles.   

        Most people who vote in the US, vote for selfish reasons.  How many times do I hear people want to nuke a country because the the price at pump went up a few cents.  Most people in the US do not understand the issues and are ill-informed by the media.

        If any voter has to wait until the last minute to chose a leader… he or she does not have a clue.

        • Modavations

          This from Mousillini’s Fascist Italy.Ask the Libyans and Ethiopians how they feel about colonial Italy

          • Anonymous

            So let me get this straight.
            Yesterday you accused me of using insults against your person and said you do not engage in such trollish snarky things. And yet here you are doing it. I’m not sure if it’s some kind of mental thing with you or you just think by denying it then it’s true.
            Much like the GOP. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Remember the lead and mercury?  Moda thinks it didn’t affect him?

          • Modavations

            Nor all my mates!!!!The modus operendi of the Left is to worry endlessly and dictate their views to the illiterate mass

          • Modavations

            I will not,nor ever have called you personally,Troll,Idiot,Poopsie,eEinstein,etc,….You constantly post without any comment,just the name calling.

        • Plushkin

          Have you had your daily Gianni Rodari fix already, Gelsomino ? Well-read my foot -  LOL. He reads “Pravda” for all the perspectives. 

    • Modavations

      You are aware that Italy has had 4 zillion governments since the end of world war 11

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Again, Million, Billion, Trillion, Quadrillion, etc…  How many zeros in a Zillion?
           World War Eleven?  I’ve slept through NINE World Wars, like MOST people, I’ll bet?

        • Modavations

          Stop it kid.This is a literary device.No they haven’t had zillions of failed govts.,but they have had hundreds.I say zillions,for effect!!!!!!!!!!America has had one(?),when Nixon quit.

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    Why NH went blue to red?

    They tried moonbats for a while and didn’t like what the got so they returned to sanity.

    • Modavations

      Seriously,I hear Moonbats all the time,know it refers to Liberals,but what’s the origin of the word.I’m boned up on the word,troll.

    • JustSayin

      Suppose for a moment that you could make every liberal policy, law, and individual disappear from the US. What kind of nation do you think we would have? 

      I’m not baiting or being snarky here, I really want a conservative republican view of a future of this nation without “the liberals”.

       

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Liberals do have a role.  The tension between liberal and conservative is good for the country.

        However, liberals do far more damage when they are in charge.  When they controlled both houses and the executive branch they produced horrible 2,200 page bills.  We get no budget for 3 years and soaring deficits and debt.  Don’t get me wrong.  W. did damage too but his damage was a more of a slow bleed.

        • Modavations

          What is the derivation of the word “Moonbat”?

        • JustSayin

          You know what I’m asking here.

          I want your opinion of the nation if all the liberals, their policies, and laws were eliminated.

          If you know that just a few liberals do so much damage, then why have them in power at all?  Here is another thought experiment. How would the nation look if all liberals were removed from positions of influence and power, but still allowed to exist?

          What kind of nation would we have?

          • Modavations

            Look what Liberalism did to the Black Man.It’s soft genocide in my opinion

          • JustSayin

            If it causes so much harm why does it still exist?

          • Dwayner63

            That has been happening long before any liberal came into power. Did you watch the debate on ABC? When Ron Paul spoke on the injustices inflicted on minorities in the justice system? You could hear a pin drop. Yet when the subject about the Catholic Church losing its rights to discriminate in same-sex adoptions and the how unjust it was for the Church the crowd erupted in applause.  That should tell you a lot about the Republicans/

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Bad juju, to interfere with the Roman Child-Molesting, Child-Abusing church!
              ‘Compassionate’ , ‘Conservative’, ‘Christian’, ‘Family Values’??

          • Modavations

            What percent of pervert priests are Democrat?All of them.Just a subset of social worker

          • Anonymous

            What percentage of bishops that covered it up were Republicans? 

          • Modavations

            It started wityh LBJ.Moynihan warned of unseen consequences and he was called rascist

          • Modavations

            That would be Yin sans Yang

          • JustSayin

            The root of extremism?

        • Modavations

          Come on dude,the Republicans are just as bad.We need a third party.The Term Limit Party

          • JustSayin

            I would call it the Rational Truth party, or maybe the Joe Friday party.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            “J”?

        • Dwayner63

          Really?  The 2 biggest and costliest blunders came at the hand of the Republicans.  The War of the Great Lie which led to 4,444 deaths to your military and the death of over 100,000 in Iraq.
          Secondly, when single payer was thrown out the window, it cost your nation over $1 trillion in overspending for your healthcare spending. The OECD states that the US spends $3600 per capital per yr more for healthcare than any other nation in the worlds. Bill: $1.116 trillion and counting. Enough to reduce the federal deficit by 90%. Over the 3 yrs since it was turned down, enough monies to retire the debt of every state in the union. $3 trillion and counting

        • Terry Tree Tree

          How many pages in the Patriot Act, when it was FINALLY published, LONG AFTER it was passed?   33,000 was the page count I heard, BEFORE amendments!
             Was it REALLY passed as a book of blank pages?
             A slow bleed?  From promising to make a Budget Surplus BIGGER, to HUGE Deficit, in four years, WITHOUT counting the wars?
              From an admitted AWOL Texas Air National Guards(man?), of a war where 1 of 20 Guard and Reserves were deployed, to his committing of 1 in 3?
              How many pages was the Homeland Security Act?
              I remember hearing of more!

    • TFRX

      Moonbattery is slightly left or right of Reagan, except as proposed by the KenyanUsurper.

      • Modavations

        Truce for a second please.I’ve asked three times the derivation on Moonbat.Do you know?I understand it means Liberal,but where does this word come from.Call me ignorant,I had no idea the word Troll was chic

  • SteveV

    Credit card use is rising and the savings rate is falling. We have learned nothing and will, eventually, get the government we deserve.

  • Plain old Cory

    If John Kerry failed at his presidential bid because of waffling, how can Mitt Romney be taken seriously?  He is the ultimate doppleganger opportunist.  He will say or be whatever is necessary to win the presidency.  Do any of us really know who he is?

  • wauch

    Jack Beatty serving double duty today? WOW Jack you deserve OT union pay! Must be a special day when Tom calls on JB to weigh on either side of the 11am hour!

  • Anonymous

    New Hampshire is a state with some of the worst public schools and health care issues in the New England area. I don’t think this state has much to brag about. Try driving on those roads up there. Pretty awful.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      The roads in NH are better than MA.  I drive both every day.  Also, NH road projects are managed to be less disruptive.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      The downside of NH is they love highway tolls hear the MA border.   I think it is payback for the high income tax MA levies on NH residents working in MA.

      • Anonymous

        We should have tolls on our side too.  Also, we should get rid of the regressive sales tax and keep those sales in MA.  Raise the income taxes progressively to offset the loss of revenue. 

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          I generally like use taxes but tolls are bad for the environment and too disruptive.  They should have been ripped out of the pike years ago.

        • Modavations

          You have finally said something sensible

    • Modavations

      I live in Boston and I think you totally incorrect,as usual.Hiway 89 or 93 are great.The N.H.turnpike,runs into Hwy 91 in W.Lebanon.The continuation into Vt.is seemlessly beautiful.The Mass.Hiways are great too.So much for the contstant bleat of fix the infrastructure

      • TFRX

        More fun from the master of anec-data.

        Who to believe, Moda, or the Council on Economic Competition?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    NH may be red – but they still come in droves to MA to earn their green.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    The map displayed is a bit deceptive – a lot of that red only has a handful of people per square mile

  • Modavations

    N.H went Dem.because the Liberals in Mass.,in an attempt to dodge taxes and find lower property prices,infected the Nashua area.Here,however,is the real story.When Jean Shaheen got elected she changed the liscence plates from “Live Free or Die”to “Live Free or sprain an ankle”.The rest is history.Yes Terry that is a “J”

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Al-Right!! Moda FINALLY remembered his “J”!  Once in a hundred times is PROGRESS! 
         Maybe he’ll get up to Three times per hundred, by year’s end!

      • Modavations

        I’m being serious.I went back to “J” specifically because of you.99% of this audience gets it.Only you miss the obvious.My suggestion….Chew on a lead painted window sill.Here’s an example.I tell you I taught archeology to Indiana Jones.You replied,that would make you abot 100 years old.He’s a friggin movie charactter TTT.

  • Ray in Johnson

    Sometimes these big swings can be short-lived.  Republicans here in Vermont took over the Vermont House back in 2000 as a response, largely, to Civil Unions.  They spent an entire term trying to get rid of them, and when it became apparent that they sky wasn’t going to fall many of them were voted out the next time around.  I think that the takeaway is that the electorate can be quite fickle.

  • Adks12020

    With the huge volume of partisan rhetoric out there on the airwaves I find it really hard to determine if American is actually as partisan as Washington is.  I think it’s more pundits taking advantage of the opportunity to rant than people actually being so radical around the country.

    I tend to think the majority of people are more in the middle and that may be a reason for the shifting around the country.  People seem to be trying to balance things out and are swinging radically in the opposite direction over and over to try to do it…it obviously isn’t working.  I wish people would realize that the “vote the bums out” mentality just causes huge swings in the other direction.  People need to think and vote, not feel and vote.

    • TFRX

      America is more partisan than Washington is. Washington–the Beltway Inbred part, the one which gets paid attention to in the media–only frets about partisanship when a Democrat somewhere makes noises about taking their own side in a fight.

      Then the drumbeat from on high is “excessive partisanship” and the attitude is almost akin to worrying about why mommy and daddy are fighting.

  • John in Vermont

    The premise here is flawed. While predominantly Republican there’s always been a strong Dem presence.  Most of these are traditional Republicans – Huntsman Republicans if you will. The Dems in the state are Clinton Dem’s meaning they are on the conservative end of the spectrum – generally not liberal.

    In 2008 what you saw were a lot of Obama Republicans turning the state blue not a shift to being Democratic.  In 2010 what you saw were the Clinton Dem voting against the direction they saw Pelosi & company taking the country.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    So – they swept Republicans into office because they blamed the Democrats for implementing programs started by the Republicans (deficit spending to fight great recession, tarp, bailouts).

    That makes sense.

    • TFRX

      It’s an oft-told story. Remember the 1980s, when “Jimmy Carter was responsible” for the oil shocks and hyperinflation of 1972-74?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    The caller claims that a voter ought to choose one party or the other, implying that Democrats and Republicans are the only options.  But Democrats want to control me in public, while Republicans want to control me at home.  Surely we can find another party to support.

    • JustSayin

      Yeah, she wants no thinking involved. Just join and follow the party with brain dead voting.

  • Dave

    As somebody who moved from MA to southern NH, I can tell you the reason has nothing to do with politics.  We aren’t “escaping” from MA, we are moving because the cost of living is so much cheaper than suburban Boston.  We couldn’t afford a home in MA, it’s that simple.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Timothy-Mark-Robinson/1351552507 Timothy Mark Robinson

    Oh, come on guest–the reason people are moving to (lower) NH is to escape the sales tax and income tax.  Don’t play us like  we don’t know that.  Tom, I emplore you to bring this up…the guest is trying to make it seem like NH is a new utopia!

  • BHA in Vermont

    “Swing State”

    The term says it all. There should BE no “swing states”. NO state should change the outcome of an election because they have 50.5% voting one party or another.

    Get RID of the Electoral College. One LIVING, BREATHING voter, ONE vote. Candidate with the most votes wins.

  • Dave

    Utopia?   That’s your word Tim, not mine.  I was only speaking about my own experience……..affordable real estate. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Timothy-Mark-Robinson/1351552507 Timothy Mark Robinson

      I wasn’t talking about u Dave–I meant the speaker on the radio…unless you are the speaker on the radio–LOL! I’m not sure how they work this…

  • jim

    you know why america is becoming Red? Americans like to find blame. It is NEVER their fault. someone must be at fault. the Republicans are the conduit to find blame for them. The blame is the Democrats. However, if they want blame… they should look at the mirror.  THAT IS THE BLAME. recall 2000? when you release a war criminal in office. recall 2004? when reelect a war criminal. and i like to give that to voters in Ohio. they deserve what they got for displaying their stupidity in elections.

    • TFRX

      I don’t blame the would-be voters in Ohio who only had to wait several hours to exercise their right. (Thanks, “keep out the vote” Republicans. Way to class up the place!)

      I also can’t help but tie this in to the “who is voting in 2012″ idea brought up shortly before I left my radio some minutes ago; wonder if the voter suppression surge was addressed while I was away.

  • Vanessa (Jamaica Plain, MA)

    I agree that the Republicans are not unified.  There seem to be an awful lot of them but the party is divided up in to so many subdivisions, most of which, don’t agree with one another.  Being a democrat, however, I’m fine with it! Divide away!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

    Democrat – Republican – it really doesn’t matter. The people making the decisions in Washington will stay the same – the lobbyists.

    Just look at NDAA if you need proof – the parties who can’t agree on anything voted overwhelmingly for this $662 billion bill, and the President signed it with no practically no hoopla or debate.

    • Joe

      UNBELIEVABLE that NDAA passed.  It gives the military the right to arrest any US citizen, without warrant or a lawyer.  This is treason.  The military is not meant to be turned on us……how can this be a law.

      Ron Paul is the only one who has spoken out about this.

  • Bruce

    What was that on ABC last Sat. night?  I thought I had tuned in the Republican Candidates Debate, but what appeared on my screen was more like a rerun of the Wizard of Oz.  The contenders looked debate weary as if stumbling down the Yellow Brick Road until they finally reach the Emerald City where they have the following exchange with the Wizard:

    Mitt:  How can I create some distance between myself and the  
            rest of the GOP field?
    Wiz:  I know, your victory in Iowa was underwhelming and you
            gained little or no bounce in the polls.  Perhaps this is
            because to most voters you put a definitive face on what
            free-market gurus call “creative destruction.”  That is, at
            Bain Capital you “created” fabulous wealth for yourself and
            other 1%ers while closing or “destroying” U.S. plants,
            laying off workers and shipping jobs overseas.  For most of
            us in the middle-class, you could say that you’ve been the
            Bain of our Existence.

    Rick S:  How can I use my surprising strength in the Iowa
             caucuses to catapult me to the nomination?
    Wiz:   I’m afraid your status as the not-Romney flavor of the
             month will be short-lived.  Your ardor as a religious zealot
             undoubtedly appeals to the flat-earth, evolution and
             climate change denying, anti-gay, anti-choice segment of
             the GOP formerly claimed by Michele B. and Rick P.  How-
             ever, your history as a Big Govt. conservative who
             supported record deficits and debt expansion under
             Bush II, will not sit well with the true fiscal conservatives
             in your Party, assuming there are any still left in the
             rotting carcass of the GOP.

    Ron:  How can I expand my support beyond a few Ayn Rand
            acolytes and brainwashed college kids?
    Wiz:  That may be problematic since you’ve never held a
            national or statewide office nor represented more than the
            half-million or so constituents in your Texas district.
            Furthermore, your ideas evoke 19th century America and a
            bygone era when small towns and rural communities domi-
            nated.  It’s as if you and your ilk have not awakened to
            the reality of contemporary society where most of the
            population resides in metropolitan areas containing most of
            the businesses, entrepreneurs, commerce, jobs, schools,
            research facilities, etc.–the engines that drive the
            economy.

    Wiz:  Who else is there?  Come forward.  I thought there were
            only three of you lost souls.  Speak up man.
    Newt: How can I reinvigorate my campaign?
    Wiz:  Wait until the primary in S.C. where the Tea Party-
            dominated GOP has elevated electoral politics to the level
            mud-wrestling and dog-fighting.  On that S.C. stage, you
            will be able to shine with a barrage of unseemly, negative
            attacks revealing your true character as the only real pit
            bull in the contest.  I can hear the audience now: 
            “YOU GO DAWG!”
    show more show less

  • Ray in Johnson

    I wonder about the split between the economic and the social conservatives in New Hampshire.  NH seems to be heavy on the former and light on the latter.  If the focus of this election were on culture war issues, then I’m willing to be that the GOP nominee would have a much different set of prospects.

  • Eben Markowski

    I am a Progressive Vermonter. Obama still has my support. Remember, he is mortal. Our expectations that any human can turn this cultural mess around in short order might be delusional. I do not blame Obama for eight year of the profound and blatant mistakes of the Bush administration. Anyone not able to rationalize this needs their head examined.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    There goes a comment about guns again, but look at the map.  Vermont is consistently blue, and yet they have some of the loosest gun laws in the country.

    • Anonymous

      That’s because about 80% of the population hunts.
      They also voted for Berny Saunders. The only socialist in the Senate as well as one of the most honest.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Vermont strikes me as an ideal state.  As I understand it, there’s a good healthcare system; they like guns; they accept civil unions.

        • Anonymous

          I use to live there. I liked then, and I still do.
          They have a lot of problems, but the people vote and pay attention. Mind you a lot of them work for the state.

          • Ray in Johnson

            We have our problems, like every place, but as a born and raised Vermonter I would not live anywhere else.  Taxes are on the high end, so it is expensive to live (in most places) here, but I think that the state government gets a lot of bang for its buck.  We have tried to do the best that we can for all of our citizens.  Air and water quality are pretty good.  The foliage is beautiful and the skiing is good.  I know that I’m biased, but I think that we have a good thing going.

          • Modavations

            Whitest state in the Union and highest percent of folks employed by state and fed.govt.Also easy to score chicks as there are no real men.Terry TT that rates as a half “J”

          • Terry Tree Tree

            I wonder if the joke is on you this time?

      • Mark Kirk

        80%?  I seriously doubt that.

        • Anonymous

          When I lived in Montpelier in the late 80′s and early 90′s almost everyone I knew hunted.
          A lot of people hunt in Vermont, it might not be 80% but almost everyone outside of Burlington hunts or knows someone who does. Most don’t bag a deer by the way. 

      • BHA in Vermont

        Speaking, as usual, with a weak grasp of the FACTS I see.

        “About two in five Vermonters (41 percent) have hunted at some time in their lives. Twenty-three percent have hunted within the past five years and 18 percent have hunted in the past 12 months”.

        This document is from 2007 and there has not been a surge in hunting since then.

        http://huntnetwork.net/modules/news/makepdf.php?storyid=758

        • Anonymous

          I stand corrected. When I lived there it seemed to me that a lot of people hunted. Mind you I lived in Richford for a while and Montpelier.  In Richford you did not go for hikes during hunting season due the volume of hunters out there.

          • TFRX

            All those who once lived in Vermont: I have visited, often, and it’s not one of those border state things (as discussed elsewhere on thread).

            Southern New Hampshire is like Boston’s bedroom. Northern VA is that to DC also. More suburbanization means more, well, suburbanites (disclaimer: I’m one), fewer of whom are hunters than, say, folks in Richford.

            Could that explain Vermont and firearms? Is Burlington still the largest city in it, with ~40k?

            And how are the Lake Monsters going to do this year?

          • Anonymous

            As far as I know Burlington is still the largest city.
            I suspect that being that Richford is on the border with Canada, that a lot of the hunters could have been French Canadians. There were a lot of them who had second homes there. The locals were mostly dirt poor.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_Y6CO5C2HE4WM2OYGCDVWGPRXXM oldman

      A major portion of each parties platform is telling the other side what it believes in and thinks. Regardless of whether they really think that way or not.

    • Ray in Johnson

      That’s very true.  I think that the two parties rarely totally represent a person’s views as a whole.  We don’t have much in the way of gun laws here, and we don’t have much in the way of gun violence.  We have a strong hunting tradition, and people, in my experience, here are generally brought up to respect the power of a firearm and not treat it like a toy.  It is my understanding, though, that while you can have a loaded handgun in your car, you can’t have a loaded rifle. The rationale being that you can’t really jack deer very well with a handgun.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        In Vermont, a person may carry a concealed handgun without a license–actually, there’s no licensing system whatsoever.  It’s called constitutional carry by gun enthusiasts.

        • Joe

          Crime is low in VT and you rarely hear of accidents.

          • Ray in Johnson

            I really think that that is a reflection of our rural, hunting traditions and the respect that many of us have been taught to give to firearms.  We have a lot of guns, but not a lot of yahoos.

        • Redwood105

          You forgot to put in the other part: the only legal use of that gun is self-defense, and the criteria for that are narrow. We aren’t rabid gun nuts.

        • Ray in Johnson

          I’ve never heard the term “constitutional carry” before, so that’s a new one on me.  I used to work in a gun factory, and I have a whole bunch of stuff, but rarely around here do I see people either flaunting their weapons or goofing around with them.  I grew up on a farm, so we always had them for hunting, putting an animal down or defending our stock from local dogs or coyotes.

          We can carry a six shooter on our hips if we want, and I’ve talked to some people in other states, and that weirds many of them out.  I know a bunch of regular old “woodchucks” or rednecks, or whatever, and they consider open carry to be in poor form.

  • Anonymous

    Flipping for the party of regressive ideas, the GOP.

  • Vanessa (Jamaica Plain, MA)

    I canvased for Obama in New Hampshire on election day 3 years ago and definitely got a lot of republican hostility even at that point – even a “get off my property” comment, even though I was simply offering them a ride to the polls!  I imagine it’s even worse now. 

  • Ellen Dibble

    I think those without time to dissect the issues think the blue collar Republican vote is essential to keep the nation’s nest egg from being frittered away supporting those who don’t work at all (Democrats, as an easy categorization).  I don’t think the Republicans are in a big hurry to nudge that particular bloc’s party identification away from the Business Party.  Though I think we know both parties are in the pockets of Business with a capital B.
        To me, the question is how honest can the debate be?  Are there two candidates who will really lay it out there, real alternatives?  Not competing illusions.

  • JustSayin

    Divide and conquer.IMO Parties exist to leverage power, not to guide the nation down a rational path. The callers confusion originates in that the parties are mental constructs, and don’t really exist, but society treat them as though they were as real as trees, grass and the sun.

    Manipulative ideologies were being used for power acquisition as far back as UR. They are attractive like religion, it gives people some group to blame and hate, and compatriots for belonging and support.

    Primate coalitions based on emotions, not facts.

  • TFRX

    I don’t care how well Romney did at Bain Capital and what he did.

    The CEO fetish is more embarrassing now considering how many bidnesspeople flamed out as Tea Partiers in 2010. CEOs get into and out of markets all the time. They get rid of customers who are too poor to provide the sought-after profit margins. They get to play accounting and money and lobbying games to make something look just right, for just a moment, to CNBC and the WSJ chattering classes, and then that balance sheet goes in the tank a few years later when they’re on to their next adventure. They admit that the free market (or whatever we have now) means things fail and companies go bankrupt, just because.

    What does this have to do with being a President and running a financially sound government?

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Yes, let’s ignore the candidates resume.

      That is what gave us Obama.

      Romney experience at Bain, governor of MA and turning around the Olympics is important because his highlights his executive leadership skills.  It is only part of the equation but for me an important part.

      • TFRX

        Pfft. Executive leadership skills?

        His dad had more. Mitt was the fruit which rotted far from that tree.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          You weren’t impressed with the Olympic turn around?

          Well, we can just agree to disagree.

      • Bruce

        Seems like Bush II, the Prodigal Son, also highlighted his business acumen and executive skills. 

        How do you square his job performance with his strikingly similar resume?

        Tell us again how it benefited our economy, stature in the world, and civil liberties at home, the last time we had an ex-Gov. with lots of business experience in the White House.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Bush had an MBA but didn’t have a successful business career.  Owner of the Texas Rangers?  Please.

          Executive experience is important.  It allows you to show crisis management skills and leadership skills.

          I could be wrong but Texas isn’t like many states.  The governor’s power is somewhat limited and legislature only meets every other year?

          We’ll see if Perry’s record gets scrutinized (if it even necessary).

          • TFRX

            After failing with everything he tried, George W. (I forget if his daddy’s rich friends provided the stake) bought a tiny slice of the team. Then the team got a possibly illegal eminent domain and hundreds of millions of Texans’ tax dollars (which, of course, doesn’t make Texas a wasteful state–birthrighteousness, don’tchaknow).

            He didn’t have to be very smart. Ninety percent of his success was being in the lucky sperm club.

            In baseball terms, Shrub was born on third and kept getting picked off, at which point his daddy kept berating the umpire. Result? Endless do-overs until he “succeeded”.

          • Bruce

            I had forgotten the details of his baseball partnership.  Thanks for providing them.

            We shouldn’t leave out his experience as an oil executive either.  Prior to purchasing a share of the Rangers, he worked in the oil industry.  The combined experience in the private sector totaled more than 20 years.  Add to that two consecutive terms as Gov. of Texas, and you have what critics of Obama’s background consider top rate executive credentials.

            I think “Worried for the country” alluded specifically to how such executive experience is essential to the development of crisis management and leadership skills in a President.

            Sounds reasonable in theory, but does not  hold true in practice if, for instance, Bush’s handling of Hurricane Katrina is any indication.  

            I have only 8 words for those who would fault Obama for his alleged lack of the right kind of experience:  “Brownie,
            you’re doing a heck of a job.”

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ‘W’ was amazingly UN-sucessful at business, but kept getting paid for bankrupting companies, and drilling dry holes, by the bin Laden family,, is how I read it!
                Remember, it took ‘the DECIDER’ over 15 minutes of being read to, to decide that “the country is under attack” might be more important!

  • Vanessa (Jamaica Plain, MA)

    Ron Paul has no chance to win the Republican nomination because his foreign policy stance.  He should ABSOLUTELY run as an independent on the ticket.  He might just be successful.  Even as a true blue democrat, I can definitely get on board with the non-interventionist strategy. 

    • Emiller

      Yes, he should run as an independent and, in addition to bringing attention to militarism, split the independents off from the republicans.

    • Joe

      Thank you Vanessa!  Ron Paul will resonate with more people as more people discover him.

      The media tries to paint the image of Ron Paul as crazy because of his stance on foreign policy.  But, I think most people think all these wars are crazy, immoral and very wasteful.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Ron Paul is working to influence the republican platform.  He will have an impact at the convention even if he loses the race.

      • Joe

        He has already had many of his talking points co-opted by the other candidates. 

        There would have been no mention of auditing the Fed were it not for Ron Paul.

         

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Right on!

  • Tina

    What is wrong with Republicans that they think that Obama’s Health Care Program is something they do NOT want?!  Are the Republicans polled so young that they actually believe that they will never get sick???  I was amongst the healthiest of Americans until I got the diagnosis of cancer, yet I’ve wanted national health coverage since I was in my late teens.  You had better hope that you have health insurance with no disqualifications for pre-existing conditions, if you know it or not!  What is wrong with these people?  Do they just drink in whatever Faux Entertainment News says so that their pores are filled with falsehoods?  I do NOT get it!  I get that there might be insurance company operatives who try to say stuff, but I do NOT get why so many Republicans cannot see that trick!!!

    • BHA in Vermont

      Because they listen to (and idolize) people like Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck who lie like rugs when it suits their goals.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      It’s not just republican’s who hate Obamacare.

      Have you read that 2,200 page monstrosity?  It may have had good intentions originally but it is just horrible legislation and it will only get worse.

      It’s like our tax code which now stands at 72,000 pages.  This is why our country is going down the tubes.

      Three years to study a new pipeline?  It gets the A-OK and then gets deferred for another year for political reasons.  We are going down the tubes.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        30% of the water of the nation, IN the bread-basket of the country, subject to pollution by a company with a bad pollution record, is the BEST kind of politics!
           YOU drink crude oil?  You bathe in crude oil?  You wash your clothes in crude oil?    Try the stickier, dirtier, crude oil of tar sands, for ten years, and report back to us, if you’re alive!

      • TFRX

        Political reasons?

        I want to serve you a glass of swill.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Yes, political reasons.

          This is the equivalent of voting present on a tough vote.

          Obama has the unions clamoring for him to approve the pipeline.  He has the environmentalists up in arms because of the perceived increase in CO2 emissions from the tar sands.  Obama chooses to punt the decision until after the election.  The state department did a 3 year environment review and give it an OK.  North Dakota has given a provisional OK too.  Why should we wait another 12 months?

          If it isn’t political then it is irresponsible.  There is no excuse to drag this out another year.

          • TFRX

            Drink up. I’ll take a glass of Ogallala, thanks.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Drink Crude Oil?  Is that your message?  The company has a history of leaks, and bad maintenance.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            There needs to be accountability against leaks in any of these pipelines.  I’ve heard these arguments before.  I remember the resistance to the Alaskan Pipeline (which had unique challenges).

            There are 55,000 miles of oil trunk pipelines operating in the continental US today.  I don’t see headlines of major problems.  I’m sure it would be front page news in the NYT if there were problems.

            My understanding is the major environmental concern is the CO2 emissions of the tar sands oil.  btw – state department did not analysis CO2 concerns at all.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            MANY environmental problems!  Ogalalla Aquifer is a MAJOR one, alone!

      • Zero

        Obamacare reduces the deficit by $100 billion over the next 10 years according to the CBO.  It allows around 40 million people to have health insurance now.  It will save at least 20,000 lives a year.  And it is already causing a rise in demand in the field of Health Care, and if you care to look at where your state has job growth, it is probably in Health. 

        • Joe

          They can charge what ever they want cause the government will pay for it.  The system is broken.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      They worship the DEATH PANELS of insurance company executives, who’ve been killing people for profit, for a hundred years!
          If you wonder how, think ‘denial of service’, due to mystical “pre-existing condition”, for example!

    • TFRX

      I’d have liked more focus on New Hampshire’s mediascape.

      People are only as intelligent as what they consume. And the Manchester Union Leader is the tastemaker in the Granite State.

  • Vanessa (Jamaica Plain, MA)

    “Vote for me or the country you love is gone.”

    Disrespectful - far below critical – of our President. Extremely manipulative. Immature. 

  • Zero

    I love how the most expensive properties are blue: (Miami, New York, Chicago, the entire California coast).  My favorite example is North Central Florida where there is one speck of blue in a sea of red.  That speck of blue is Alatchua County where the University of Florida is located–the sea of red counties are poor, god and gun rednecks.  Austine, Texas has the same geography.

    Libs are at the beach, and conservatives settle in tornado alley….

  • Redwood105

    One thing left out of your discussion this morning was the influence of the monolithic right-wing hate machine, all of it aimed at President Obama. No other President, except perhaps Bill Clinton, has ever faced anything like it. The audience for this material is largely ignorant and easily swayed. They have a narrow world view and reject anything that conflicts with it, factual or not. That’s hard to beat even with the facts on your side. It’s why New Hampshire flipped, and I believe there is a lot of voter remorse because of it.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Have you ever heard of Bush derangement symptom?

      • TFRX

        Nice false equivalence. Reality has a well-known liberal bias, even in a mediascape where Obama and Clinton are passing for extremem liberals.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          You consider Obama and Clinton the same?  Clinton was a pragmatist who shifted his domestic policy back to the center after two years to save his re-election.  Obama is behaving like an leftist ideologue on domestic policy.  He has made no attempt to deal with the deficit.  And don’t tell me he has with his millionaire tax increase.  That would have only raised $11B.  It is a joke.

          • TFRX

            For the last time: Let’s not repeat 1937. Let’s remember the off-the-cliff economy from 2007.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            You mean 2008?  Remember oil went up to $120/barrel in 2008 and we spent $800B importing oil.  We only spent $360B this year.  Oil is now rapidly going up and might have a severe impact on the 2012 economy.

          • Zero

            Are you kidding me?  Obama is pragmatic to a fault.  His economic policy (which republicans have refused to pass) is technocratic–being that a consensus of economist wrote the bills.  Were you awake during the budget debates over the summer?

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            You bought into that political theater?  We need real reform.

          • Zero

            Oh did I?  Well, Bush’s former budget director said the Bush Tax Cuts need to go.  The CBO says the leading driver of the debt are the Bush Tax Cuts.

            The truth is, raising taxes on the rich is economically sound and republicans know it–that’s why their only argument is crying “class warfare.”  I couldn’t care less about what “fair” tax policy is.  If it is economically sound, it is fair.  The rich will still be rich; you need not worry. 

            Republican “reform” is based on faith, not numbers.  If you want reality, read a CBO report.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Simpson Bowles raises revenues without raising rates according to CBO.

          • Zero

            And I think we should have done Simpson Bowles, and then let the Bush Tax cuts expire.  The deeper our debt, the weaker our dollar, and that is more threatening to the rich than a 3% tax hike.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Simpson-Bowles revamped the tax code and makes the bush tax cuts moot but I agree with your analysis.

    • Zero

      George Bush faced some serious criticism, but almost all of it was justifiable criticism.  That’s the big difference–the criticisms coming from the right is unjustified and easily shot down.  As a liberal, I find it quite hard to find well-reasoned criticism on Obama (and I do look quite hard for it).  But the best negative criticism of Obama has come from the left.  The New Yorker (now and then) has well-reasoned criticism from the right. 

      Bush was a pretty hard right guy, and because he failed, republicans have had no place to go but further right, which is as you say, a narrow ideology that is blind of anything outside of it.

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Bush was not hard right.  Remember he was the ‘compassionate conservative’.  This is code word for a moderate.  He was a big government, big spender politician.

        • Zero

          Find one consumer protection is the housing bill…then come back and say he isn’t hard right.

          And look at the debates with McCain in 2000.  McCain was the moderate, pragmatic republican.  Bush had compassion for Jesus freaks; that’s about it.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Bush pushed for the unfunded prescription drug benefit.  We now have an additional $20T unfunded liability.  This is ‘compassionate conservatism’.  Also, he only had 11 vetoes in 8 years.  He should have vetoed horrible spending bills.

          • Zero

            And a democrat would have payed for it with a tax hike on the rich (which means nobody would be hurt).  Now republicans what to pay for it with cuts on the very people ‘they are trying to help.’

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Here’s the problem.  The rich don’t have enough money to pay for the $20T liability.  The democrat political class knows this.  They love to float the class warfare rhetoric because they count on the electorate not understanding the numbers.  For instance, 75% of the bush tax cuts went to the middle class. There is no free lunch.

          • Zero

            That is a total lie.  2/3′s of the tax cuts went to the rich, even John McCain said that.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            I was using Obama’s definition of rich: couples making more than $250K which translates to the top rate.  It breaks down 3:1.

          • Zero

            So you have no problem with millionaires being taxed more?  I agree that the top tax bracket should be broken up…and I don’t know why Obama doesn’t push for that kind of policy.  I think having the top tax bracket the way it is helps republicans to protect millionaires from tax hikes.  But again, yes, $250K and up can afford 3% more.

          • Zero

            So asking the top tax bracket to be raised 3% is “class warfare”…?  Really?  Because to me: such a religious stance against a modest proposal is radicalism.  In fact, if you look at the last 100 years of the American tax code, a 3% hike is actually conservative. 

            Republican Dwight Eisenhower taxed the rich 91%.  He was by far and away a better president than Reagan, and no one called him a commie.  So is it really “class warfare rhetoric” or are you getting caught up in the politics of the moment? 

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            My preference is for severe tax reform.  Throw out the 72,000 pages and replace it will a simple tax system with a couple of rates.  This will give us growth.

            Personally, I would have let the entire Bush tax cuts expire.  However, that only gives us $400B/year and we still would have a $800B deficit.

              We still need massive spending cuts and then we need more cuts to pay down the debt.

          • Zero

            The problem is, we need “massive” spending cuts after the economy improves.  We are a demand crippled economy, thus making domestic cuts to government labor is only exacerbating the problem.  However, after the wars are over and defense spending is cut, the Bush Tax Cuts are no more, and Obamacare reforms Medicare part D, I think we will be close to a balanced budget. 

          • Ray in Johnson

            I think that McCarthy called him a commie, but he was nuts.  I do think that the historical taxes rates, including some high rates that were supported by the GOP traditionally, does get lost in the political discussion of today.

          • Zero

            Obamacare is being paid for by a heavy surtax on the richest 400 Americans.  And of those richest 400, more than half have already donated to Obama’s campaign (which is clearly against their own economic interests).  I grew up in the top tax bracket in the 1990s, the Clinton tax rate didn’t hurt anyone. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            50% of $2 MILLION, is $1 Million!  Destitution?  HOW?
                50% of $4Million, is $2Million!  NO incentive to grow wealth?  HOW?
               With over 80% of money held by 1% of population, HOW could 75% of tax cuts go to middle class?  They didn’t have the money to get that much tax cut!  Unless you’re talking about 75 percent of the population?  Duh!
                The math doesn’t WORK!

          • Modavations

            Go reread Ayn Rand.You can only tax someone so much before they say adios.Read about Laffer Curve.

          • Zero

            If you raise the individual tax code on the rich, where are the rich going to go? 

          • Modavations

            They stop working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • TFRX

          That was a slogan, not a platform.

          “Compassionate conservativism” was a slogan invented to make white suburban women vote for Bush. It was to fool them into thinking he wasn’t going to govern with absolute vitriol for people of color, gays and lesbians, womens’ rights, and such. Whether these were his true feelings or something he had to do because Cheney and Rove told him matters not.

          It was a ruse simply to carve out some white suburban female voters in the age range of, say, 20s-thru-40s. Then the first day in office, all that kind talk went out the window.

          (Caveat: The stuff about breaking bread with Imams, and being seen as trying to keep Americans from lashing out in mere synaptic anger at all Islam, shown by Bush immediately after 9/11, seemed genuine.)

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ‘Compassionate’, ‘conservative’, ‘Christian’, are terms people feel they have to identify with, to get elected!  Look at their lives, and you see different.  Many preachers and especially priests, do not have as good of morals as I do.  Yet, they are ‘teaching ‘ morals?  HOW does that work?

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Hypocrites in politics?  Gambling in Casablanca?

            Oh my!!!

    • TFRX

      The first rule of monolithic propaganda media is not to talk about monolithic propaganda media.

      (At least when something can be done about it. After the election, all the navel-gazing about how effective the echo chamber is, and how shite flows down the staircase through them, Drudge, Politico, then “It’s out there! We have to cover it!”. But not now.)

  • Dee

    Tom and Jack, 

    Stop making the GOP Yahoos seem like the sensible alter-
    natives …They are the Mr. Magoos of the world in my book 
    and have proven themselves blind to the suffering and pain their policies have inflicted on ordinary Americans….

    Notice they never talk about those down and out or indeed homeowners under water or those needing food stamps to 
    get? And what about young people over their heads in debt. 

    Imagine, having a leadership that pledges to hold down the taxes of Wall Street instead of demanding everyone pay their fair share?  Adding to this, their pledge to remove EPA stand-ards that help keep our air ,water and soil free of their toxins.

    This is all harmful thinking and it should be pointed out as 
    such…..Dee

    P.S. Mr. Magoo,  at least, seemed at times to know he was 
    a bit off–not the Republicans…They keep getting it all wrong.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Magoo

  • Mark

    I was on the program today, and brought up the point about how the Republicans embrace the term “Conservative”, while Democrats flee the term “Liberal”.  The panelist on with Tom responded that 2/3 of Americans call themselves Conservative, while [less than] 1/3 call themselves Liberal.  I didn’t respond to this on air, but is the lack of self-identified Liberals simply a reflection of the fact that nearly no one is championing being one?  Or that those on the right have done a very effective job of villifying the term?  Either way, in the absence of embracing the term, and what it means, the Democratic party will, in my opinion, continue to suffer from an identity crisis. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/JP-John-Paulus/642658552 JP John Paulus

      Or it could be that people are identifying with certain aspects of conservatism.  For example, here in Chicago, there are many who would be social liberals (i.e.  the gay community, or strong pro-choice leanings) who are economic conservatives (i.e. never mingling or having real relationship with the poor, avoiding African American meighborhoods, even middle class Chatham).  There are those who are pro-life but work day-to-day and live among the poor. Despite thier lifestyle, many liberals would reject anyone pro-life, and certainly not consider them liberal.   Liberals need to be open-minded with the fact that a SIGNIFICANT portion of the population doesn’t agree with them, either socially, economically and/or with “Law & Order issues” (anti-immigrant, pro-military types). And both sides need to realize that though many are conservative in all 3 areas, there are also many who are only conservative in 1 or 2 of them. Parsing out Conservatism and Liberalism can can get more support to actually accomplishing something, and have MEANINGFUL dialogue.

      • Zero

        You don’t think that there are two basic ideologies: 1) tries to control cultural behavior but let’s market behavior do as it pleases; and 2) tries to control market behavior but lets cultural behavior do as it pleases….?

        The terms seemed to be mixed up: conservatives are really religious neo-liberals, while liberals are really secular conservatives. 

  • TomK in Boston

    It’s bizarre to hear over and over that the solution to our economic mess is cutting taxes and gvt. We have been cutting taxes since 1980, reaching near post-1929 lows, and the middle class has been sinking the whole time. Why would anyone think tax cuts are good? It’s crazy. Ditto gvt regulation. We gave the non-banks a free hand, repealed Glass-Stegall, mandated that exotic derivatives can’t be regulated, and raised the allowable limits on leverage to 40:1, we got a financial crash, and….the solution is less regulation? It’s crazy. Meanwhile, geezers enjoying SS and medicare are whining about socialism. It’s crazy.

    The whole radical GoP field in NH follows this theme, and there seem to be a lot of bamboozled voters, too. There is some sanity from Huntsman and Paul. Romney OMG! This guy says he’s a “businessman”, but he ain’t no Steve Jobs or Henry Ford. There is no “Romney” product, just a string of financial con jobs and big profits for him and his elite friends. Responding to a crash caused by financial scams by electing a financial scam artist is really too much. 

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Glas-Steagall was good regulation.  It was 37 pages.  Dodd Frank was 2000 pages.  Maybe well intended but we are screwing ourselves with these behemoths.

      • Modavations

        Not well intended at all.It never addressed Fannie-Freddie.The real culprits

      • TomK in Boston

        Always nice to be able to agree with something :) and sure, “behemoths” are undesirable. However, in large part it’s because the financial behemoths are so powerful and they fight every step, making straightforward regulation impossible. I think it’s more significant that regulation is weak, for the same reason. Dodd-Frank is complex AND weak. I still think we’re a little better off with it than without it.

        I would love to have a one-sentence reg: if you have FDIC, no trading for your own account.

        We’ve had a financial crash driven by unregulated non-banks and deregulated investment banks. We’ve had a massive oil spill by companies “regulated” by their former employees. All the right can talk about is the cost of regulation. Why am I not hearing about the cost of not regulating?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          The victims of non-regulated tend to die.  Remember Upper Big Branch of Massacre Energy?   Remember Deepwater Horizon Gulf spill of British Pollution?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        SOOO TRUE

  • Zero

    To “Worried for the Country”

    The problem is, we need “massive” spending cuts after the
    economy improves.  We are a demand crippled economy, thus making
    domestic cuts to government labor is only exacerbating the problem. 
    However, after the wars are over and defense spending is cut, the Bush
    Tax Cuts are no more, and Obamacare reforms Medicare part D, I think we
    will be close to a balanced budget.
    ————————————————————-

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      We can still cut now (probably down to 20%GDP) and then to 18% GDP once the economy recovers.

      Romney had a great speech line the other day.  He said he take the budget line item by line item and ask:
      “Is this worth borrowing from China to pay for?”
      If it isn’t it gets axed.

      There is a lot of fat left in the budget.

      • Zero

        I think my point about making cuts, cuts demand is pretty sound.  Obama’s job bill would have in turn created demand for the private sector, and demand will spur job creation before anything else.  And his jobs bill was paid for. 

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Not really paid for it was smoke and mirrors.  Here is how.  The millionaires tax raised $11B in year one but was scored for 10 years but the spending was all in year one.

          Both sides have been jokers.  Simpson-Bowles was a serious proposal but that only reduced growth of debt by $4T.  It didn’t go far enough.

          • Zero

            But the economic multiplier for infrastructure investment has been 1:1.8 over the last 30 years.  I can look up the government source if I must, but I need to thumb through my New Yorkers to find it. 

            Second, the construction jobs part of the jobs bill is the most necessary.  Once the population grows enough to demand houses again (which is 2014) the construction industry will pick up.  The government has to do something about that industry, unless we want the economy to drag itself until then.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            There may be a point to infrastructure spending.  Another Hoover dam?  Now that worked.

              Here is the problem.  The first stimulus was blank check (up to $800B).  It was sold as an infrastructure stimulus for shovel ready jobs.  Instead much of the money was wasted.  There was a feeding frenzy of pork.  There is now a deficit of trust with this administration.

          • Worried for the country(MA)

            Another example of infrastructure spending they avoided was modernizing the air traffic control system.  My understanding is that was ready to go and would have an positive impact for decades but they didn’t opt for that with stimulus I.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Ever wonder how much of that waste was by Republican ‘conservatives’, that opposed the Stimulus?
               I saw ‘shovel-ready’ projects start in Tenn., Georgia, Alabama, and some others.  Some are now completed.  Travel is easier.

          • Zero

            Also, yes you are cutting demand with cuts.  Today’s recession: capital and product outweighed labor  In the 1970s, labor outweighed capital and product, thus a shot of supply side economics worked (even though poverty and deficits went up.  By the late 80s, supply side ran its course and the economy started to suffer. 

            The entrepreneur class depends on the consumer class and likewise.  If one class down, the economy suffers. 

  • Anonymous

    All I have to say that there are 50 million people living at or near the poverty level in this country. That’s 1 in 6 people living in poverty. I’m not hearing any solutions to this issue or any other issues that are effecting our nation from any one of these GOP regressives. I’ll also add I not hearing much from the Democrats either.

  • Anonymous

    All I have to say that there are 50 million people living at or near the poverty level in this country. That’s 1 in 6 people living in poverty. I’m not hearing any solutions to this issue or any other issues that are effecting our nation from any one of these GOP regressives. I’ll also add I not hearing much from the Democrats either.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Grow the economy.

      Also, I think the definition of poverty has changed.  I don’t see many gaunt people out there hurting for meal these days.

      • Modavations

        I offered  anyone in Boston a hundred dollars if we couldn’t find one hungry kid after an hrs.driving around.No one took me up on it.Even the “crack babies” in Boston are fat

        • TFRX

          Someone with more patience than I ought to teach you the difference between “under-” and “mal-nourished”.

          And what a food desert is.

          • Modavations

            .The road to hell is paved with good intentions

        • Zero

          You have no problem with kids growing up on food stamps? 

          • Anonymous

            This guy is a real piece of work. Scrooge had more humanity in his little finger than this chap.

          • Zero

            Scrooge was a job creator. 

          • Anonymous

            And he conserved coal.

          • Modavations

            I’m not here to be your mates,I’m here to show you alternatives to the socialist-communist vision

          • Zero

            We don’t have a socialist-communist vision.  I’m a capitalist.  Obama is a capitalist.  Obama is such a capitalist that he makes Eisenhower look like Stalin.  You really don’t know what capitalism or communism is.  You are just trying to pull people to a capitalistic utopia.  You are an idiot and you need to read a history book.

          • Modavations

            I have a problem with a political party that denies the poor a school voucher.I consider my education the key to my success

          • Anonymous

            How are vouchers conservative?  Government money to subsidize schools?  Government regulations always come with government money. 

          • Modavations

            We send an average 13,000 per annum,per kid in the public schools.This year we had the lowest scores ever,in all 7 measured disciplines.30%(maybe 40%) of 3rd graders read at proficiency

          • Terry Tree Tree

            $40,000 to incarcerate some.  SuperMax is a LOT more!

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Children eventually graduate from school!

          • Zero

            Then how about raising taxes to lower tuition and raise scholarships? Like the Nordic countries do.  Wages for everybody except people with graduate degrees have gone down over the last 10 years, so shouldn’t government at least make a college degree obtainable for all members of society?  Right now, people are trying to pay off college debt while trying to save up for their kids college–is that the American dream? 

            This economy went into recession because people stopped spending on product and started trying to pay off their debts. 

      • Zero

        A person making less than $11k; and a family of 4 making less than $22k.  That’s pretty poor.  If there was no fast food in this country, you would see what real class warfare is.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Agreed.

    • Modavations

      When you add in section 8,food stamps,medicaid,et al.they make about 41,000.00 per annum

      • Anonymous

        41K per annum. What a load of crock.

        I dare you to live on food stamps and minimum wage.

        • Modavations

          I stand by my statement.Add in Medicaid,section 8 and on and on

    • Modavations

      I lived in Joburg for 4 years and travel to India every september.You’ve never even seen a real poor kid.

      • Anonymous

        That’s the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard in regards to poverty. It’s worse somewhere else so poor people here should be ignored?

        That’s pretty lame reasoning.

        • Modavations

          Have you ever seen kids crap on the side of the road?.Have you ever seen barefoot people walking around in rags.You don’t know what real poverty is.The poor in the US are considered ultra rich in most of the world

          • Anonymous

            That is what is called a straw man argument. Again comparing the different aspects of poverty around the world to make a point is making you sound like a fool.  By the way I’ve been to third world countries and seen the kind of poverty you are talking about.
            That has nothing to do with my statement about how people are losing ground and poverty is growing here. We don’t live in Bangladesh or Somalia, we live here in the US.
            Your argument is absurd, a homeless family in this country is still homeless even though they have a shoes on their feet. You are a real piece of work.

          • Modavations

            Here’s the diff.In the US you can go to the church and get assistance.In India and Mozambique you die.Get it son

          • Anonymous

            Where do you get this stuff from? You make this blanket statement about the US and then act as if you are some kind of authority on poverty. What I get is that you’re wrong and that you don’t know how to parse ideas. You then come back with these nasty diatribes and call people socialist and communist if they don’t kowtow to your beliefs. There is a word for the kind of act you present here.

      • Zero

        Seriously dude, you should read Candide.  America is not the best of all possible worlds; it could be better for all it citizens. 

        • Modavations

          I consider the USthe best of all countries,Italy second,Mexico third.I taught voltaire how to write.Yes TTT,that one rates”J”

      • RChicago

        I grew up in a rural area and had friends that didn’t have indoor plumbing/running water, slept three teenages to a small bed, bathed in a metal bucket, ate deer meat because it was free, had clothes given to them because they had no money, and the list goes on. There are real poor people here in this country. Many of them are in rural areas that have few, if any, social programs to help them. All anyone sees on TV is the poor inner city people. The invisible poor are the ones out in the country side away from the cameras.

    • Donna

      I talk about poverty and reliable food issues all the time. Most likely because I am in a very wealthy town several days a week. However I live in the 6th hungriest county in the nation while within the state that ranks 50 or 51 in cost of living. How well this shows the incredibly disparate and the obvious incongruity of this issue. But, the tourists think it is quaint….HA!

  • Zero

    Worried:

    I have my own issues with the stimulus as well…but generally speaking, it did work.  GDP was contracting at 8% before the stimulus, so it is pretty safe to say that the stimulus worked. 

    But yes, the banking stimulus in particular should have had more stipulations.  The auto bailout worked very well.  Again, generally speaking, Keynesian economic policy lasted about 5 minutes, but in that 5 minutes, a lot was saved.

    As far as supply side is concerned: I think corporate taxes need to be lowered to the G20 average, but close some of those advantages that some corporations have. I know Mitt Romney has said that, and Obama has said the same, but Obama has recently been ambiguous about the issue.    

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      We can find economists on both sides of the effectiveness of the stimulus.  Easy for them because it will always be unprovable.  However, the admin. economists said unemployment should be at 6% today because the stimulus.  This has been one of the most tepid recoveries.  GDP growth hovering between 1-2% is very unusual for US recoveries.  Again, impossible to prove cause and effect.

      The auto bailout did work but I believe (and many experts also agree) that having GM simply go through normal bankruptcy would have made GM stronger in the long run than the heavy handed government control.  Again, we will never know.

      • TomK in Boston

        It’s illogical to say the stimulus was a failure simply because the admin underestimated the power of the crash and made too-rosy predictions, even if it’s good politics. Keynesians like Krugman said from day 1 it was too small, and it was one-third tax cuts to satisfy the right, which made it less effective. 

        The recovery is tepid because improving corporate profits are not circulating through the rest of the economy, creating demand. The wealth is all flowing to a tiny segment in a way that is unprecedented since 1929, and it is the logical result of Reaganomics. The solution is higher taxes at the top and more gvt spending.

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          You give a good summary of one view.  Many economists agree with your view and many other disagree. 

          I won’t argue against the Keynesian stimulus in a downturn.  It is clear to me that the stimulus was poorly designed.

          I hope you will agree that our massive debt is an issue.

          btw – Keynes was a proponent of stimulus during down cycles but creating a rainy day fund during booms.  We have undo the $15T debt before we can consider a rainy day fun.  We built up the debt in one generation and it will take several generations to pay it down.

          • TomK in Boston

            I’m glad you agree that a significant faction of economists think we should be spending now, instead of cutting. To listen to the corporate media, you’d think all the “serious people” were on board with austerity.

            I’m a strong believer in seeing what actually happens when we try something, as a test of the economist’s theories. Of course you can’t always assume causation with so many things going on. To me it’s significant that the decline of the middle class has coincided with 30 years of tax cuts, but others try to explain that otherwise.

            Anyway, europe is a laboratory for austerity. They are cutting like crazy, and I’m gonna watch what happens. If their economies get worse as a result, I hope we pay attention.

            I agree that our debt is an issue, but don’t forget that interest rates on our debt are amazingly low, and that 12 years ago we were paying it down. What changed? It wasn’t a vast increase in discretionary spending, it was wars, tax cuts, and the economic crash itself, so those are the things to fix. Actually the corporate media tell you about the spendthrift behavior of southern europe, but those countries had declining debt/GDP before the crash. Crashes cause deficits! If our economy got going again, with more normal tax rates, the debt would be lost in time, like tears in the rain.

          • Zero

            It’s tough to have a healthy economy with low taxation and weak labor representation. It needs to be on or the other.  Japan has low taxes but they have wonderful labor representation , thus the wage distribution is not disproportionate from CEO to mail room clerk.  In the Nordic countries it is the opposite: wages are disproportionate yet taxation is high on the rich.  All of these countries have good economies and good quality of life.  In America, we have disproportionate wages and low taxation, thus we have financial inequality and the laws of supply and demand aren’t balancing out.  Back in the 70s, it was the opposite in America–high taxation and high labor wages. America needs to chose one or the other.  Either the CEO takes a pay cut for sake of the employees or the CEO takes a tax hike–both options raise revenues and balance the economic law.  

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Here, I agree with you again.  Unless the U.S. industry can come up with products that will sell well!
                It’s disgusting how many quality U.S. product companies have been bought by Chinese, or execs sold out to get HUGE pay, for Chinese slave labor!

      • Zero

        I think the loss of almost 200,000 public employee jobs since republicans took the house is a serious economic factor.  (I think it is 200,000, but I a certain it is over 150,000 lost jobs.) I like the auto bailout more than going through bankruptcy because GM has paid interest and actually make money for the government.  But, as far as GM’s sales are concerned, well let me put it this way:there is no doubt Ford sales are up because they went through banks instead of government.  But would banks have taken on GM?  I seriously don’t know. 

        • Modavations

          GM is having a descent year selling trucks and lg.SUVs.As for the Volt,it like the Solyndras, keep going up in flames.Sorry,sorry TTT that would be “J” 

          • Zero

            I just saw on the news tonight that GM beat everybody this year.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            That’s all right, Moda.  I have never been impressed with the Volt.  A HUGE corporation like GM should have been able to make a vehicle FAR better than little ole Tesla!  GM probably pays its executives MORE than Tesla’s TOTAL budget!

          • Gregg

            The technology isn’t there yet. The entire green thing was a fiasco. Wind won’t work either.

            http://www.power-eng.com/news/2012/01/1579985080/row-blows-up-over-high-cost-of-power.html

          • Yar

            A toddler will never learn to walk if he isn’t allowed to fall down.  Green energy is still a toddler, we need to encourage it to grow.  That includes some failures.  

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          Public sector employment doesn’t have the multiplier factor you were talking about with infrastructure (which sounded like a generous number).  In fact, it is a negative factor.   There are rare exceptions.  For instance, if you had a shortage of building inspectors and that somehow slowed down construction activity  then you’d have an negative economic impact.

          • Zero

            Yes, but public sector employment increases consumer confidence/demand.  Again, in a demand starved economy, the worst thing you can do is weaken demand.  Second, teachers in particular are very important to the economy–the more you lower their wages, the less talent is attracted to the profession (like any other job).  Teachers are not like cops–you can cut police wages because cops don’t necessary have to achieve high intellectual merit.  However, law enforcement would weaken.  However, if you cut teacher wages, the teachers with graduate degrees find a different profession and people who didn’t do very good in college become teachers.  To me: education is the foundation of any healthy economy–there need not be a multiplier for education: the strength of our education seems to mirror the strength of our economy.

  • Pingback: Rolling Coverage: The N.H. GOP Primary | WBUR

  • Modavations

    oes anyone know the history behind the word Moonbat

    • Fredlinskip

      Yes.

      Before Bachman ran for president, her complexion was a deathly pale, as if she never saw the light of day.
       She looked like a neo-nazi and her quotes were off the charts goofy. Therefore she was knicknamed by some observers a “moonbat” and it stuck.

      Hope this was helpful to you.

  • Still Here

    As goes NH, so will go the rest of the US.

  • Anonymous

    We can find economists on both sides of the effectiveness of the
    stimulus.  Easy for them because it will always be unprovable.  However . the admin. economists said unemployment should be at 6% today because
    the stimulus.  This has been one of the most tepid recoveries .  GDP
    growth hovering between 1-2% is very unusual for US recoveries.  Again,
    impossible to prove cause and effect .

ONPOINT
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Apr 25, 2014
President Barack Obama and ASIMO, an acronym for Advanced Step in Innovative MObility, bow to each other during a youth science event at the National Museum of Emerging Science and Innovation, known as the Miraikan, in Tokyo, Thursday, April 24, 2014. (AP)

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Apr 25, 2014
In this Saturday, Aug. 11, 2012 file photo, employees of the New Hampshire state health department set up a temporary clinic at the the middle school in Stratham, N.H., to test hundreds of people for hepatitis C related to an outbreak at nearby Exeter Hospital. A new drug, Sovaldi, is said to successful treat more than 90 percent of Hepatitis C patients. (AP)

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Apr 24, 2014
Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

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