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Super Committee Fails

Jacki Lyden in for Tom Ashbrook

Super-failure for the Super Committee. Now what?

From left, Rep. James Clyburn, D-S.C., Rep. Fred Upton, R-Mich., Rep. Xavier Becerra, D-Calif., and Rep. Jeb Hensarling, R-Texas, of the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction attend the panel's last public hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Nov. 1, 2011. The congressional super committee is trying to come up with a package by Thanksgiving that trims the federal deficit by at least $1.2 trillion over 10 years.  (AP)

From left, Rep. James Clyburn, D-S.C., Rep. Fred Upton, R-Mich., Rep. Xavier Becerra, D-Calif., and Rep. Jeb Hensarling, R-Texas, of the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction attend the panel's last public hearing on Capitol Hill in Washington, Tuesday, Nov. 1, 2011. The congressional super committee is trying to come up with a package by Thanksgiving that trims the federal deficit by at least $1.2 trillion over 10 years. (AP)

Many Americans didn’t pay much attention to the Super Committee or its goals – until it admitted defeat.  The failure of political consensus in the 112th Congress on reaching agreement about how to reduce the nation’s  deficit will get  attention henceforth though, as an  ‘automatic’ buzz saw of 1.2 trillion in cuts begins to whir through everything from the Pentagon to food safety.

What will be fallout for the president? For Congress?  For the American People?

This hour, On Point, the Super Committee’s  ‘Greek tragedy that could have us looking a lot more like Greece.

-Jacki Lyden

 

Guests

John Harwood, Chief Washington Correspondent, CNBC. Political writer for the New York Times.

Alex Brill, a research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

Tim Dickinson, is a political correspondent for Rolling Stone magazine and author of Rollingstone.com’s political blog, National Affairs Daily. His November 9th article for the magazine was, “How the GOP Became the Party of the Rich”

From The Reading List

Rolling Stone “Today’s Republican Party may revere Reagan as the patron saint of low taxation. But the party of Reagan – which understood that higher taxes on the rich are sometimes required to cure ruinous deficits – is dead and gone. Instead, the modern GOP has undergone a radical transformation, reorganizing itself around a grotesque proposition: that the wealthy should grow wealthier still, whatever the consequences for the rest of us.”

Wall Street Journal “Now that the committee has apparently failed, lawmakers and others are taking a harder look at the automatic cuts, or “sequester,” which will kick in starting January 2013 unless Congress acts. And they look plenty scary.”

Slate “For starters, the whole premise of the Supercommittee was that if it didn’t agree on something, then $1.2 trillion of spending cuts would be quasi-automatically implemented through a mechanism known as “sequestration.” The cuts are balanced 50-50 between the security and nonsecurity sides of the budget.”

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  • Roy Mac

    How did we get to this point?  We, collectively, have sent a giant carload of bozos, clowns, to Washington to represent us in otherwise truly important ways.  It’s too weak to blame ourselves for inattention, but there are about 50 or 100 thousand truly corrupt people who are deciding what happens in this country.  That is just wrong.  I have no faith in any of the branches of government–each and every one is acting solely in his or her own self-interest.  When–for God’s sake!–did the corpse of Ayn Rand take over the USA??

    • Kfcl33

      They’re not all bozos and clowns before they get to Washington… Once they get there and they meet Grover the ones who weren’t already bozos and clowns become bozos and clowns.

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      Those of us who elected people who vowed not to compromise or negotiate share solidly in the blame.  Those electing candidates who pledged allegiance to Grover Norquist get an extra helping of blame.

  • Yar

    A call to action!
    Don’t give up on the institution of democracy, change the process by which we decide who will serve.  Organize regular citizens to run for every seat in the House of Representatives, get candidates to sign a pledge not to take any money other than their 174,000 dollar federal salary while in office. Only support candidates that agree not to use the office for personal or family gain.  With social media and grassroots registration efforts we can be the power of the 99 percent.  Adopt the slogan “register to win” for voter registration.  Elbow grease beats money every time. This is a call to making your voice heard.  We can do this.  I know we can replace everyone in congress when we get 80 percent of eligible voters to the polls.
    What do you think about: 
    Pollsters call on Obama to step aside, make way for Clinton
    http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-pollsters-clinton-20111121,0,6798616.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fmostviewed+%28L.A.+Times+-+Most+Viewed+Stories%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher 

    I would put Obama on the ticket as VP, he could still run again as president in 2016.

  • Michiganjf

    Why not have a headline show title a little more representative of the truth?

    How about:

    “Republicans once again assure that debt negotiations FAIL through their pig-headed intransigence.”

    As I go to bed, and MS-NBC online poll has 112,000 respondents:

    66.6% blame Republicans for the failed negotiations

    Another 7.5% at least partially blame Republicans

    That’s over 83% of Americans, the vast majority of which blame Republicans outright!!

    … and yes it’s MS-NBC… you know, the website whose polls get inundated by conservatives who camapign to get their drones out to vote EVERY TIME AN MS-NBC POLL IS TAKEN!!!

    … just check out all the poll comments! They’re over 50% rightie comments!

    When will Republicans realize their “corporate lackey” politician’s view of America is NOT the America wanted by most U.S. citizens??!!!

    • Michiganjf
    • Michiganjf

      That should have read:

      “Another 16.5% at least partially blame Republicans”

      Sorry!
       
       

    • Brian

      1. Internet polls almost always swing left
      2. This is especially true of MSNBC of all places (Fox News of the left)
      3. Your partisanship is exemplary of the problem in American politics. It was both parties’ faults. Both parties suck. Big time. It’s a systematic problem and partisan whining perpetuates it.

      • Michiganjf

        Yeah, right.

           That kind of sophistry won’t absolve Repugnicans of the blame they deserve.

        Dems and the Prez have compromised over and over again, and offered up even more compromise to boot…

        … it’s Repugnicans who’ve pledged their and Americans’ souls to Grover Norquist!

      • TFRX

        You know what’s exemplary of the problem in politics? The false equivalence that “independents” sometimes ascribe to MSNBC and Fox.

        One commits acts of journalism on a regular basis.

        The other? They’re propagandists who have a special Dunning Kruger audience that often takes pride in its ignorant. There’s “something about watching Fox News that leads people to do worse on these questions than those who don’t watch any news at all”.

        http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2011/knowless/

      • Anonymous

        @02685cab2cc9340ff4c4d02b6de71666:disqus  @2003f7637c3992e3d33a26f5736c3add:disqus  Because the “party discipline” results in ALL Republicans voting in lockstep on almost all issues, especially tax issues, Republicans are much the more culpable; three Democrats, Ben Nelson (NB), John Tester (MT) and, well – Independent, Joseph Lieberman (CT), are the most recent “breakaways,” and on JOBS legislation, FGS! They basically gave “cover” for the Republicans filibuster when their vote otherwise had NO significance.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        “Both parties suck. Big time.”

        It’s more like the Dems suck big time, and the GOP has gone psychotic.

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      To answer your final question, they do understand and they don’t care anyway.  When the sole goal is re-election, you obey the folks who bring the cash.  That is of course the corporations.

  • Newton Whale

    Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand.

    Thank God they came up with nothing. Think of the harm they might have caused if they had agreed to decimate medicare and social security.

    Boldly doing nothing will trim $7.1 Trillion from the deficit by eliminating the endless tax cuts of the last 10 years.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/why-doing-nothing-yields-71-trillion-in-deficit-cuts/2011/11/16/gIQAsOdwRN_blog.html

    We do not have a spending problem.
    We have a revenue problem.
    Taxes are as low as they were in 1950 while unemployment is high.
    Prime the pump, create some jobs, and watch the deficit drop.

    • Brian

      I couldn’t agree more. What’s really a shame, though, is that they have a year to “fix” this. I’m looking forward to being gobsmacked by Obama caving in on making the Bush cuts permanent. Ugh.

    • Fredlinskip

      100% agree –
      Similarly as debt ceiling debacle, I thought for sure GOP would propose last instant offer and Dems would cave and basically “sell the store” to the GOP.

    • William

      If this were true, why has the economy not recovered? Trillions of dollars spent and yet, we are still in a recession after nearly 4 years.

      • Anonymous

        The stimulus was actually about 800B dollars (the amount spent to prop up the finance industry and auto was not true stimulus), and even that was not spent very quickly…actually I don’t think it was all spent. It was a drop in the bucket. All legitimate economists say the stimulus needed to be at least 2 trillion to do anything. The GOP made certain it was too small to work, thus they could say to their lemmings: See, it didn’t work! Maybe they are right; after all, if you want a real big spending spree, unfunded, you have to like the Republicans (unfunded Rx Medicare-D; unfunded wars…two).

        • William

          The regular budget plus the stimulus is over 3 trillion dollars. This massive amount of money is not getting the economy moving so it is time to try something else.   The GOP was right to object to the failed stimulus because the money was wasted. “Shovel ready jobs?”..har har….more to keep loyal Democratic voters (unions) on the job at the cost of harder hit sectors of the economy. The late Senator Kennedy had been pushing for decades for the drug plan for seniors so blame him if it is unfunded. Bush was a fool to go along with it.

          • Anonymous

            And what is the something else to try?  Tax cuts for the wealthy and cutting the social safety net while the rest of the country is plummeting towards the ground?  That’s not something new, that’s something the Republicans have been enacting over decades and it has NEVER worked.  So why would it work now?

          • William

            A massive reduction in the size of government. Start with a 25 percent across the board cut in budgets for every department.

          • Anonymous

            The problem with the drug plan was that it didn’t allow the government to use its purchasing power to negotiate good prices for the drugs.  The Republican “run government like a business” rhetoric goes away when it is time to give tax money away to their corporate masters.   

          • William

            There is very little difference between the Democrats and Republicans when it comes to “corporate masters”.

          • Anonymous

            @0aeb1c67f759dc0e24a92a5eb0bf6a0b:disqus  @RolloMartins:disqus  @d1f4d6bdbd30038a190115b7f587a2c9:disqus 
            Christy Romer’s 2008 analysis showed that over $1 trillion was needed (probably $1.2 trillion) but Democrats thought the “optics” of an amount that large would never “sell.” Then over a third was set aside for tax cuts and increased to get the NECESSARY Republican support to get Senate cloture (Arlen Spector [PA], Olympia Snowe [ME] and Susan Collins [ME] — Spector needed company in crossing aisle), there was over $100 billion for AMT adjustment, which was going to happen anyway. Thus the most effective stimulus was under $400 billion.

            Because the tax cuts were implemented as a change in withholding, not a lump-sum check, in order to make it more effective (spent rather than saved, most Americans do not realize it was the biggest tax cut ever.

            This stimulus was over a two year period when the economy had dropped over 6% (of $13 trillion), or a drop in GDP of some $1.8 trillion which could not come close, with low “multipliers” for tax cuts, to replacing even a significant portion of that missing GDP.

            Then the type of recession, a “balance sheet” or over-leveraging recession where homeowners had lost over $12 to $14 trillion in home equity, ensured that spending by consumers who had been using their homes as ATMs would not soon rebound.

            Why did homeowners borrow so much? Largely to meet college costs for their children, hospital bills, etc. Why did they move to better neighborhoods: better schools for their kids.

            Why did they need to borrow? Business owners, corporations mostly, but small and mid-size businesses also, did not share the income growth from productivity gains with their workers, who had made contributions to that growth.

            The Bush tax cuts did not lead to strong growth in income for any but the super rich, those in the top 0.1% of the income distribution, who also benefitted the most from the tax cuts. Their income went up much more than their total taxes, unlike the case for ALL others.

      • Anonymous

        It worked. It just wasn’t big enough. Actual economists have explained this:

        “Just look at the outside evaluations of the stimulus. Perhaps the best-known economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers and Moody’sEconomy.com. They all estimate that the bill has added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs. The Congressional Budget Office, an independent agency, considers these estimates to be conservative.”

        “It prevented things from getting much worse than they otherwise would have been,”Nariman Behravesh, Global Insight’s chief economist, says. “I think everyone would have to acknowledge that’s a good thing.”

        “The last year has shown — just as economists have long said — that aid to states and cities may be the single most effective form of stimulus. Unlike road- or bridge-building, it can happen in a matter of weeks. And unlike tax cuts, state and local aid never languishes in a household’s savings account.”"The ideal follow-up stimulus would start with that aid. It would then add on extended jobless benefits, which also tend to be spent, as well as tax credits carefully drafted to get businesses to hire and households to spend, like the cash-for-clunkers program.

        “http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/business/economy/17leonhardt.html

        You can thank Susan Collins (a Republican) and Ben Nelson (the most conservative Democratic senator) for single handedly cutting $80 billion in aid to states and cities that would have saved even more jobs. 

        http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2009/02/05/172588/nelson-collins-cuts/

        • William

          It failed. We are in worse shape now. The idea that “doing something” is usually the wrong thing to do. The money was tossed out the window quicker than the mint could print it. Aid to the states just bails out failed corrupt local and state governments that refused to control their spending. Extending unemployment payments will delay the recover because most of that money has to be paid back by the employers. Already, unemployment insurance payments made by employers is going up which won’t encourage them to hire new workers.

          Susan Collins is anything but a Republican. “Saved jobs” is a failed attempt to justify slush funds to the various public employee unions which will donate money back to the Democrats.

  • Michaellong100

    It always angers me when Republican ask “What would Ronald Reagan do?”

    - He would be thrown out of the Republican party because he RAISED TAXES when the deficit got out of control. 
    - Does anyone even bother looking at tax rates when Reagan was in control – 50% for the top income bracket!!!! During the wonderful Republican tax renaissance, tax rates were substantially higher than they have been under Obama.

    - Reagan and George W. Bush had William Black at the Office of Thrift Supervision send 1000 cases to the DOJ for prosecution during the Savings and Loan Crisis. They didn’t just say “no one could have seen it coming”

    This isn’t the Reagan Revolution, this is a third world model of government. America is starting to look more like the Sudan. Government and business are the same institution, no one pays taxes, regulations are nonexistent and can not be enforced, graft (or lobbying as we call it) is the only political institution and citizens are responsible for not buying their own education, health care and justice. The rich don’t make great products in this third world system to sell abroad they make outrageous bribes, usurious loans to the poor and kill competition wherever they find it. They are the only group protected by “the law” because they can afford it. Look at how many hedge fund manager and two bit criminals are in the richest Americans list. These people are not Henry Ford, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. They are not even Carnegie or Rockefeller. 

    Thanks Rush. You won. 

    • Anonymous

      Reagan was our worst president: shenanigans with terrorist states (can you imagine the headlines today? OBAMA DEALS WITH TERRORISTS!), lending aid to genocidal dictators (Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua), union busting. And I’m a GOPer!

      • JUST CORY PLEASE!

        After your comments today, I’m sure you will be called a “RINO”!

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      My god, where in hell do you get your history?

      Reagan SLASHED the top tax rate from 70% down to 50% in 1981, then down to 28% in 1986.

      Reagan did indeed raise SOME taxes… not enough to offset the revenue losses… and basically he redistributed taxes DOWNWARDS. While the rich saw a massive tax cut, Reagan for the first time taxed Social Security and Unemployment.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Furthermore… Reagan NEVER got the deficit under control. He never proposed or had a balanced budget. He added nearly 2 TRILLION to the national debt which before he took office was about $960 billion.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      “Does anyone even bother looking at tax rates when Reagan was in control – 50% for the top income bracket!!!! During the wonderful Republican tax renaissance, tax rates were substantially higher than they have been under Obama.”

      Sorry M, you’re an idiot if you believe the trash you just posted. It’s unfortunate you took so many people in.

  • RoyalScam

    What a surprise. 

    Now, BO gets to screw the 99% rest of us. 

    How quaint, President 2Veto.

  • Drewjkelly

    Any congressman that would lower themselves to pledge an allegiance to someone such as Grover is doing a grave disservice to their country. and obviously don’t possess noughe integrity to “lead” themselves out of a paper bag.

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      Who the hell is Grover Norquist, and why is this one man able to hold our political system hostage?

      • JustSayin

        I think he’s the broker who passes out the monetary bribes to Congress to enact the legislation written his by wealthy clients.

        That’s how our democracy works.

  • rosebud

    PASS A 5 TRILLION DOLLAR OVER 10 YEAR STIMULUS PROGRAM.
    WATCH AS EUROPE FOLLOWS SUIT. AND THEN SIT BACK AND ENJOY
    THE HOLIDAYS. 

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      I’m afraid the teabaggers would begin to excercise their “2nd amendment rights” if any such thing were attempted.

  • Fredlinskip

    Superduper committee… “to boldly go where no committee has gone before….GOP’s grand ‘compromise’ proposal of “super” committee included PERMANENT extension of the Bush tax cuts.That’s akin to saying to someone sinking in quicksand;”I’ll see if I can help you out, but I’m first going to push you down in up to your nose”.

  • Anonymous

    Tim Dickinson’s article is very good and should be read before listening to him speak on today’s show.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-gop-became-the-party-of-the-rich-20111109

    Of course the right wingers and tea party extremist will dismiss his thesis which is based on facts to bludgeon the forum with comments about how it’s all the democrats fault and that Obama is a socialist and whatever else they can conjure up.

    In my view the whole idea of the super committee was unconstitutional and the triggers were also absurd. This whole mess points to the extreme dysfunctional nature of our government more than anything else.

    As to the republicans who keep on pointing fingers at the democrats, well they keep moving the goal posts father to the right. They have proven time and time again that they do not want to negotiate but they want to dominate. To them it’s ideology over country. How else could 98% of them sign on to signing a document that an unelected lobbyist, Grover Norquis, authored that defines how they deal with matters of state.

    To me they are the party of extremist and are scary. Bob Dole seems like a moderate compared to the likes of Cantor.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_republicans_arent_funny_theyre_scary_20111121/?ln

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      I so agree with you about the super committee.  Yet even without accountability and with unheard of authority, they still couldn’t do anything.

  • http://www.cheapsheds.com.au/bird-aviaries/ bird aviary

    Bright and intense analysis. These just shows that you are indeed know what are you saying you are certainly a well-informed person. This blog goes straight into my bookmarks!

  • Winston Smith

    Given the Republicans’ inflexibility on restoring a reasonable (higher) tax rate for the rich and reigning in out of control Defense spending and the Democrat’s unwillingness to stop the runaway train named “Medicare, Medicaid, and other Entitlement programs” that they created in the 60′s when they controlled the House/Senate/Presidency, is anyone surprised that no deal was reached?  Even if they did reach a deal, the federal debt would still have risen to $25 TRILLION by the end of the 10 years.  

    At this point, let the payroll tax cut expire, let extended unemployment benefits expire, let the Bush tax cuts for the rich expire, and hope that things work out. But between Greece, Italy, and the U.S. unfathomable amount of debt with no end in sight, the whole system will be collapsing sooner rather than later.  

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      I’d like to see a cost benefit analysis of the things you mention.  I actually agree with quite a bit of what you suggested, but I get nervous about cutting the unemployed completely loose.

    • Anonymous

      Great plan that sounds so familiar. Oh wait, Hoover did this in 1929 and it caused the Great Depression to get worse. 

      Given that Medicare is more efficient than in controlling health care costs than for profit insurance corporations, I would like to see how we can fix it to work better and be more efficient and work towards a decent single payer system.

      I keep wondering how people can predict how the federal debt will be in 10 years. What is interesting is how the republicans, Bush and Chaney to be exact, said deficits and debts don’t matter and thought that the future for government revenue was quite rosy. They thought the economy was going to keep growing. Oh well so much for predictions. 

    • nj

      Medicare is not an f*ing “entitlement”!!!!!!!!!

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Since when?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Look on any working-class pay-check stub, and you will see a deduction for Medicare Insurance!  It is an insurance premium.  The abuses of it are like the abuses of every other program.  Congress and the Rich, DO have ‘Entitlements’, out their ying-yang!!  Corporate Welfare is NOT paid for by a ‘Corporate Welfare Deduction’ on the Corporations!  Congress DOES NOT pay a ‘Congressional Bank’ deduction from their pay-checks, NOR do they pay for their health-care (Super-Deluxe), from their pay-checks!
             Go after the True Entitlements!, not the insurance payments that the True Entitlements have been borrowed from!!

  • AC

    embarrassing.
    also, pathetic……
    any other job would fire such ninnies.

    • Hidan

      Republicans run on failure.  Remember government can’t do anything wrong, elect a republican and they’re prove it.

      • AC

        it seems like it was an equal-oppotunity nincompoop type deal, i won’t exclude one or the other….

  • Anonymous

    I’m a Republican, but this one goes against the GOP ledger. Shouting from the mountaintop for spending cuts, but refusing deep Defense cuts is a sham. It’s about raising taxes on wealthy…and not even that: eliminating a temporary tax cut to role back to the original rates isn’t a raise of taxes. Sick of Congress misleading and deceiving.

    • JustSayin

      It has been a sad transformation. Old folks know the difference between the Republican party of the 1960′s and the greed based ideological traitorous cabal that they have become now, and the democrats are only moderately better.

      As you state, the problem has always been Congress. When people remove their blinders they see that Congress is the cause of ALL of the nations problems. We shouldn’t blame the lobbyists, because they too were created by Congress.

      When this debt crisis is driven to it’s conclusion… Downgrade.  The interest rate on the debt will rise to around 7%. Yes, Congress will continue with it’s ideological stupidity until insecurity multiplies our debt by about seven times. Rational observation would indicate that this is what they want. Not one of us is surprised that the gang of six did nothing.

      So the question we should ask is why? What kind of America is Congress creating, what is their goal?

      • Anonymous

        @eb6e941afefc55d914e933031fc4b98a:disqus  @RolloMartins:disqus 
        At the core to the ignorance of the current elected representatives is the corrupting campaign finance scheme in place today. A good presentation on its effects and how to make a major correction is given by Lawrence Lessig:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxCo2bE9Gtk&feature=related

        then watch some of the rest of the Lessig videos.

    • NathanD

      ORIGINAL rates?  You must mean you want to restore the Clinton tax INCREASES of the Reagan-Bush Sr. (original?) rates.  

    • Modavations

      the MilitaRY bUDGET THIS YEAR IS 600BILL..mOST of IT IS FOR PENSIONS AND HEALTH CARE.iT DOESN’T COME FROM the s.security accts.I’m for the sequester,equal pain right accross the board.

  • JUST CORY PLEASE!

    To those who are afraid to cut spending on the military I’d like to suggest a few things.

    First…  There is no longer any point to trying to stay ahead of the Chinese militarily.  Although we could rain hell on them today, that time is nearing an end.  We are going bankrupt, and they hold many of the IOU’s.  It would be like going into massive personal debt and trying to fix it by going to the bank with a gun.  They have won the “war” without ever firing a shot.  Also, they are near to the point where they can nullify the Nimitz class aircraft carrier.  These carriers have been our “Hammer of the Gods” during pax Americana.  China is developing supersonic anti ship missiles that we cannot currently defend against.  Imagine the USS George Washington and 5000 sailors and airmen being sent to the bottom of the Taiwan straits.  It isn’t that far away.

    Second…  As far as defending against the terrorists who hate us just because of our “freedom”.  These threats will rapidly disappear when we leave them alone to find their own way.  9/11 was a response to infidels in the holy land.  Shrink our military 50-90% and bring these resources home to find our own energy sources (yes, oil included) and end or diminish reliance on unfriendly foreign energy sources.

    Time to put away the big stick and focus on problems at home.  Time for the rest of the world to find their own way.  

    • Hidan

      committing suicide because one fear’s death.

      • JUST CORY PLEASE!

        I think there can be a bright future without American hegemony.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Please don’t count-out the Skunk-Works, and their creative and innovative brethern (What’s the alternative to sistern), and sisterhood, that created a plane that held records for 25 years (the SR-71 Blackbird)! 
          CIWS may not protect against the super-sonic missiles, but it was developed and deployed over thirty years ago!

    • Anonymous

      @e533c71f78b04b5363a41d402415bf87:disqus 
      The “they hate us because of our freedom” slogan was never more than that. The radicals used the Arab knowledge of how we supported authoritarian oligarchs who stifled the aspirations of those living in and near poverty because the rulers took all the money (from oil, etc.) and left the crumbs for the majority of the populace.

  • Anonymous

    Republican leadership’s immediate reaction that they would oppose the automatic cuts tells you who is posturing and who is serious about spending cuts.

  • John_Friederic_Khaynesk

    We’ve done the experiment where ‘smart’ people from ivy leagues and other big name colleges make budgeting decisions based on our behalf.  Where has it lead us?  I want real and radical reform.

    Let’s have participatory budgeting at the national level where every so many years, the total tax revenue gathered is evenly split among American citizens and they can apportion their share to whatever national programs they feel is important to them.  It will be truly representative of the nation’s fiscal priority and not done by proxy through a ‘smart’ representatives.

    No more disappointment from elected officials, no need to worry about either party sneaking in their pet projects; they can sneak in as many as they want, it doesn’t matter since we would literally be funding it as we see fit.  And we can finally allocate money between the military and social programs fairly, because America decides.

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      I understand your desire to move away from business as usual.  I balk at the anti-intellectual part of your argument.  Intelligent people educated well tend to be good problem solvers.  I don’t want a chicken plucker to devise a financial plan or draw up blueprints for my house. 

      • John_Friederic_Khaynesk

        I don’t really care if you balk at my anti-intellectual part of my argument, that isn’t my main point, so why pick on such a detail?  It’s already agreed upon by economists, democrats and republicans that tax revenues must be increased AND cuts are needed.  So in engineering, you break a problem down and work on each part.

        Cuts are on the table right now and we can fix that, and neither ‘dumb’ reps and ‘smart’ reps want to risk their political career over making tough choices.  What I’m suggesting is that they shouldn’t.  We should.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ???

    • Anonymous

      I disagree. It’s the anti-intellectuals or should we use your terms, the “dumb” people in the tea party caucus who have done most of the damage here. That said your anti-intellectual diatribe is absurd.
      It’s as if having a degree from Harvard or Yale is the problem and not right wing ideology that is being put before what is good for the nation.  I will say this, you sound like Eric Cantor and Perry who are pretty scary in my view.

      • John_Friederic_Khaynesk

        I’m suggesting it’s both the ‘dumb’ and the ‘smart’.  Like I replied to Cory, cuts are needed just as much as revenue increases.  It’s clear to me no one in Congress wants to make a decision because it risks their political careers.  I’m saying we shouldn’t have them make these decisions especially since 535 people in congress can never be a statistical representation of what the nation wants, just on sheer numbers alone.  Get past the anti-intellectual crap.  I’m sorry if that mis-directed you.  Get to letting us make the choices.

        • Anonymous

          I’m sorry I can’t. When you parse a comment with that kind of rhetoric it does frame your mindset.

          However I do agree that Congress is nothing short of dysfunctional.

  • Wm. James from Missouri

    1. It is important to realize that who owns your debt is almost as important as the amount of debt. If US citizens owned all of our government debt the nation would effectively be paying itself. Maybe we should return to an upgraded form of Series HH bonds and mail the coupon to investors. This would increase the velocity of money, domestically. An increase in the velocity of money is badly needed during this long and painful recession.
    2. Will you please stop calling Soc. Sec and Medicare; “entitlements”. These are forms of PREPAID, EFFICIENT INSURANCE. If your insurance agent tried to renege on paying your claim you would call him a criminal or racketeer.
    3. I find it ironic that the Republicans are screaming about the debt that the people they represent (the corporate internationalist) created when they set out to bust the unions and labor in general by moving US jobs to China. Do you remember Nixon’s push to open up China trade ? It is too bad that Obama has done the same type of thing with  Mexican truckers !

    For your information: A Series HH Government bond is a 20-year non-marketable U.S. government savings bond that pays semi-annual interest based on a coupon rate. This coupon is locked in at a fixed rate for the first 10 years, after which it is reset by the U.S. Treasury for the rest of the bond’s life. Interest on Series HH bonds is exempt from state and local – but not federal – taxes.

    • ipswichma

       William, The interest would be so low that I doubt that the HH bond would be attractive to investors.

    • nj

      Yes, yes, yes: [[ "Will you please stop calling Soc. Sec and Medicare; “entitlements”. These are forms of PREPAID, EFFICIENT INSURANCE. If your insurance agent tried to renege on paying your claim you would call him a criminal or racketeer." ]]

      A big lever with a boxing glove should pop up from somewhere and bop anyone who calls SS and Medicare “entitlements” upside the head. 

      • Anonymous

        @a7686d1cc5384c1e2746f246f688eb2f:disqus  @ec87cceeca835fed2aaf1fd44f8b3700:disqus The Republicans certainly consider it and use it as a derogatory term; but the term is used to distinguish the payments under it as not fixed by an annual appropriation, but by eligibility rules that persist from one year/Congressional session to the next unless the rules are specifically changed.

  • Hidan

    “Super Committee Fails”

    Depends on how you  look at it. All members on the Super Committee received massive amounts of donations and contributions from lobbyist. Thanks to Mccain and Gramm the defense department wouldn’t be cut but prob even increased. Thanks to the Media’s fake fair and balances and 50/50 split the republicans wouldn’t get blamed for their extremism.

  • Hidan

    Not to mention Republican counter to popular belief want debt, it allows them to cut social programs and entitlements that they could not do if they ran against them in the election box. Just look at the suppose coming out deal by one of the republicans on the Super Committee, the guy was willing to raise taxes/ cut loop holes worth 300 billion only if we made permanent the bush tax cuts which would raise the deficit over 3+ trillion over ten years.

  • Yar

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html 
    Who pays the most taxes?  It is a little like asking if you eat grass.  Chicken and beef eat corn which is (highly modified) grass, just as taxes are paid by labor that earns those resources.  The top 50 % get their most of their wealth from the labor of the bottom 50%.  The higher you go up the ladder the more you are supported by the masses.  The top have been simply collecting taxes from us all along, they are not passing those collections on to the government. That is the source of the deficit. Tax and spend is more responsible than the ‘conservative’ cut taxes, cut spending. We should pay our bills. 
     

      

    Group’s Share of Total AGI

    Group’s Share of Income Taxes

    Average Tax Rate

    All Taxpayers

    100.0%

    100.0%

    11.06%

    Top 1%

    16.9%

    36.7%

    24.01%

    1-5%

    14.8%

    22.0%

    16.40%

    Top 5%

    31.7%

    58.7%

    20.46%

    5-10%

    11.5%

    11.8%

    11.40%

    Top 10%

    43.2%

    70.5%

    18.05%

    10-25%

    22.6%

    17.0%

    8.23%

    Top 25%

    65.8%

    87.3%

    14.68%

    25-50%

    20.7%

    11.0%

    5.58%

    Top 50%

    86.5%

    97.7%

    12.50%

    Bottom 50%

    13.5%

    2.3%

    1.85%

  • NathanD

    Why do so many people think that simply raising taxes on the rich will have an effect of our budgetary mess?   I say, fine, let’s raise the marginal tax rate to 100%.    Now what do we do next month? 

    • Hidan

      straw-man agrument at best, no one believes that raising taxes on the rich will solve our debt problem but it will reduce the debt. Most if you read below believe some type of mixture is needed. No one this thread made the call for raising taxes to 100% so why make that claim?
      Reductio Ad Absurdum on your part.

      • NathanD

        Obviously I was exaggerating to make a point.  You can raise income tax rates but the revenue generated will be symbolic at best.  At worst, the high rates may reduce the number of high incomes available to tax, sort of defeating the purpose.  I sympathize with those who feel rich people should fork over an even greater share of their wealth than they already do, but the country needs more creative thinking than this if it is to survive. 

    • JUST CORY PLEASE!

      It has to be part of a comprehensive solution to our financial woes.  Hidan hit it right on the head.  How about we raise those rates to where they were post WWII or during the Clinton administration?

    • Anonymous

      Straw-man argument at best. If we went back to the Clinton tax rate, or better yet Reagan’s we would raise a lot of revenue. There would also have to be cuts. The Social Security rate should go up from 106K to at least 300 to 500K.

      Then lets do some serious talking about our dysfunctional market based health care system.  

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Assinine Republican Arguement, ‘Either LOWER taxes on the rich even MORE, or TAKE 100%!’  The Whining Rich have NO reasonable arguement to stand on, so they resort to this!!
          The thirty years of TAX Cuts for the rich, HAVE NOT  produced jobs, so let’s RETROACTIVELY go back, and let the rich PAY those taxes, interest, penalties, and associated costs, acquired by FRAUD, and see if we do better!

  • Hidan

    The Super Committee is just another National disgrace esp republicans and of course the fox newers will still be fed the whole thing is the fault of minorities getting Mcmansions than throw in some propaganda. Such is life.

    Who got the props? Alex Brill?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSNbdpI8P4
    http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/One-be-lo/Propaganda.html

    • Anonymous

      @db24b891a3e99840e43da48d1df50c2d:disqus 
      Actually, by demonstrating the intransigence of the Republicans, at least to those who take the time to look, the failure is moving the middle toward the Democrats for next year’s elections. If enough are convinced, there is hope.

  • Anonymous

    How much money are we going to waste sending troops to Australia just to annoy the Chinese?

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      It is not a lot of money. 2,500 Troops is not so many.
      Remember China is now drilling oil in the Spratly’s islands if there is no present of US Forces in the Pacific rim from Japan, Philippines and Australia. the Chinese will ultimately might grab some of the islands that are unoccupied with tons of oil reserves.

    • JustSayin

      US Hegemony is coming to an end, even with the facade of righteous asset protectionism hiding the actual underlayment of corporate subsidies on both sides via “military spending”.

  • ipswichma

    welcome Jacki, but where is Tom?
    The fact that this committee is called “the super committee” is an oxymoron. I watched “Meet the Press” on Sunday where both Jon Kyl and John Kerry blamed the other side for failed action. Who is telling the truth? Can we discuss any facts on these negotiations which were held in private?

    • nj

      Apparently, Tom mentioned on the program a week or so ago that he was having some sort of joint operation. I didn’t hear it, but some folks have mentioned here that they heard that.

  • ipswichma

    After listening to last weeks ON POINT that discussed how Senators and Representatives use “inside trading” legally to bolster their own stock portfolios, I wonder how many of these Super Committee guys shorted the market yesterday? 

  • Modavations

    We need 10 years of the sequester.No if’s and or buts.Pres.Obama said if you tamper with the sequester,”I’ll veto”.This is the second time I’ve agreed with the President.Don’t ask me what the other case was.

  • Modavations

    I’ll bet if they took 5 Reps. and 5 Dems.from the Boston phone book,we would have had sucess.The Founding Fathers did not anticipate the career politician.It’s time for Barney,Bernie,Olympia,Susan,John K,and all the lesser lifers,to be escorted to the door.

    • Anonymous

      Mostly democrats. Barney Frank is your favorite whipping post.
      Bernie Sanders is one of the good guys in my view. He gets voted in by conservative Vermonters as well as left wing folks. Why is that?
      Because he does what a Senator should, he does his job without taking money from lobbyist.

      • ModaLies

        Moda’s obsession with Barney Frank must have to so with some hidden fear Moda, himself, is gay. We already know he lies about his income. Why not this?

      • Modavations

        More people, per capita are working for state,local and federal govt.in Vt., then any other state

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    What is so Super about this Committee?

    • Anonymous

      Super sized screw ups.

    • Anonymous

      @yahoo-C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU:disqus It was an impossible quest once Speaker John Boehner read the “tea leaves” that he would lose the Speakership if revenue increases were included in the recommendations and publicly said that no tax increases would pass the House.

  • Modavations

    The right has Norquist the Left has AARP.It’s time for the third party.Perot got 19%.Come on Mayor.Bloomberg.It’s time for Real Men,to seize the day

    • Yar

      We already have three parties, but only one in power, the incumbent party. I say replace the incumbents with citizens who pledge not to use the office for personal gain.

      • denis

        this attitude is what got us in this mess… the election of 2010 replaced people with people that were uneducated, uninformed, etc. 

        These statements show how successful Fox News and the 24/7 right wing talk folks have been.

        • JobWellDone

          The Mainstream Media: Programming the minds of millions for many years. 

        • Yar

          I didn’t say anything about electing the uninformed or uneducated.  I believe there are educated and informed citizens among average Americans.  I trust them far more than the professional politician.  Instead of a pledge not to raise taxes, I would like to see a pledge to actually serve the people.  That includes provisions that prevent using the office for personal of family gain.  I want all office holders to refrain from taking money for campaigns or PAC’s while in office.  I want office holders to stay out of the financial market while in office.We have plenty of smart honest people, however very few are encouraged to seek public office.

          • Anonymous

            @Yar_From_Somerset_Ky:disqus  @a873fb4faaac44337c183cd84924c626:disqus  @fa4bc3cbae1b2d01bfa84cf9b03ff954:disqus 
            To improve the representation in Congress, if only to reduce the time spent raising campaign contributions and the direct “corruption” that ensues, public finance: it will be far cheaper than the current system, which, while “privately funded,” comes at great cost to government spending (direct and through tax expenditures — loopholes). See:

              www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxCo2bE9Gtk&feature=related

            and other videos on his site.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            You have some good points there!

        • Leatherstocking

          fire up the gas chambers?

          Frustrating this self-government and democracy eh?

          I wish some noble force would impose something better…..

    • Patrick

      In what universe does AARP = Grover Norquist?  I’d love to hear the reasoning behind that false equivalence.

      • Anonymous

        Don’t bother. This guy just posts stuff like this to get a reaction.
        He’s all about attention and little substance.
        AARP has nothing to do with progressives or the left and if this guy did his homework he would see that they are quite centrist and I would even say they lean towards the right.

        He’s just flinging mud and hope something sticks. 

        • Aaron Miller

          Both in terms of fiscal policy and stand-up comedy.

      • Leatherstocking

        All you “likers” have lived in your self-righteous, see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no-evil monkey bubble for too long.  Your partisan dedication is what is sinking our ship.

        • Anonymous

          @8589f0ae151ef55698bffef689ddc820:disqus 
          At least most of us will agree that healthcare is the biggest problem, but the reforms need to be subtle changes that change how healthcare in general, not just Medicare and Medicaid, are paid for. This is not the same as hacking off disease payments, vouchers, etc. which Republicans want to do.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ???

      • Modavations

        AARP says not one penny in reductions and Norquist says no new taxes.I’m for raising taxes to exclusively pay down debt.As for the Social programs they’ll start going broke in 5-10 years.Medicare goes first.The Soc.Sec surplus(2.5trillion)has been replaced by IOU’s.

  • Modavations

    The Bush tax cut knocked me from 31% to 28%.I saved 10% on my taxes.The economy has croaked and for the last two years I’ve taken a 50%ish pay cut per annum.This dwarfs the 3%.If you intend to reduce the deficit(457 billion in interest payments,this yr.alone)with the tax increase,I’m with ya.The economy will take a few years to regain it’s footing,but we’ll feel an uptick immediately.And yes,Bush was a disaster

    • ModaLies

      Ya sure Moda. We already know you lie about your income. You must believe if we think you’re rich then your idiotic posts will carry more weight.

      • Modavations

        Why don’t you meet me and I’ll show you my tax returns for the last 15 years.You won’t because, you’re a coward.In fact,all you guys who call me a liar.I’m prepared to lay my cards on the table.Friggin cowards,me thinks.

        • ModaLies

          Remember when you were warned not to make an ass on these boards while using your real business name? Your clients might realize you were a psycho and your competitors might use your posts against you.

          Guess you haven’t learned a thing.

        • LeadIsPoison

          Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

          When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      “Bush was a disaster.”  I AGREE with you on that!! 
          Now, how about the Tax Cuts for the rich, when starting and continuing two of our longest wars, of UN-necessity?
         How about the “I will increase the Budget Surplus!” promise of ‘W’, and the results of his policies, that did the opposite!
          How about Congress giving themselves raisies in MANY ways, while calling for ‘sacrifice’ from the people?
          How about admitting that thirty years of tax cuts for the rich and corporations have NOT created jobs for legal U.S. Citizens!! 
          I could go  on, but I doubt you will go this far!

      • Modavations

        Yes,yes,a thousand times yes.If and only if the money goes to reduce the debt-deficit.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Again, we agree!  At least mostly.

          • Modavations

            That’s better.You were pretty harsh,earlier.You know I like you

    • ModaLies

      Can anyone make sense of Moda’s nonsense?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    As a wanna be political economist. I believe the $1.2 trillion budget cuts will happen with the expense of Medicare and Medicaid AGAIN. If I am a baby boomer retiree I WILL AVOID GETTING SICK FOR the time being until you past away. Goodluck to all of you!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    Glad to see that President Obama is putting his foot down with Congress and finally using the power of the bully pulpit. Ideological entrenchment in both parties created this mess and the only way to fix it is to call out Congress and hold their feet to the fire of public opinion. Forcing members to reap what they have sown is the only way to make them act in the interest of their constituents and get to work instead of campaign for next year’s election and take vacations.

    • nj

      Another sucker falling for Obama’s dissembling.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

        another troll with nothing better to say.

        • nj

          The Obama who fails to prosecute Wall Street crimes (“They did nothing illegal” he says.); the Obama who negotiates new job-outsourcing “free-trade agreements;” the Obama who caved on the public option and handed insurance companies a huge windfall and guarantees high health care costs for the foreseeable future…

          This is the Obama that the Obamabots think is going to use “the bully pulpit” to do something in their interest.

          Suckers.

          • Leatherstocking

            You sound like a Tea-Partier, good for you.

            Now, throw out that litany of racist, homophobic, blah blah blah red herrings, and trash all possibility of forming an actionable majority……

          • nj

            Why are you smoking, Dave? Teabaggers call Obie a “socialist.”

          • Leatherstocking

            Crony Capitalism, Crony Socialism, State Capitalism, whatever. That’s the whole point. The Obama who fails to prosecute Wall St. crimes.  The not really free (unfair, not reflecting externalities of our classically liberal society), free trade.

            Crony and/or naive public/private deals for insurance companies or solar companies

            Swallow you pride and join forces and narrow down criticisms/demands to the points of agreement so that we can form a REAL 99%.  Not just a 45% that ignores another 45% that are not ready to give up our classically liberal and honest free market roots/ideals.

  • Cime

    As to why the Super Committee fails… One word! Money!!!!!

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    OF COURSE THERE’S A REVENUE PROBLEM!!!

    The Orwellian Right knows repeating the Big Lie that “Washington doesn’t have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem”, will stick in the minds of their rabid Right base. They were correct. We see that irrationality and denial of reality in post after post here.

    Using numbers from the US Historical Budget Tables… table 1.3—SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS (–) IN CURRENT DOLLARS, CONSTANT (FY 2005) DOLLARS

    The first number below is the fiscal year. The second number is revenue in CONSTANT DOLLARS… ie inflation adjusted to 2005. The third number is a simple projection of the revenue LOSS for each year BELOW Clinton’s last year. Even this simplist analysis… projecting FLAT revenue growth into the Bush years, the Bush tax cuts were SO draconian that there’s about a $2 TRILLION loss in revenue over the last decade. In reality, because should have been GROWING from population/economic growth, the REAL revenue loss is perhaps closer to $3 trillion…

    2000 = 2,310.0 CLINTON’S LAST FULL YEAR IN OFFICE

    2001 = 2,215.3 = -94.7  first Bush tax cuts

    2002 = 2,028.6 = -281.4

    2003 = 1,901.1 = -408.9

    2004 = 1,949.5 = -360.5

    2005 = 2,153.6 = -156.4

    2006 = 2,324.1 = +14.1

    2007 = 2,414.0 = +104

    2008 = 2,288.5 = -21.5

    2009 = 1,898.3 = -411.7

    2010 = 1,919.0 = -391.

    We can leave to another time the questions of the utter CONTEMPT the Orwellian Right has for those it hopes to deceive… as well of the gullibility of those on the Right that eat up even the most blatant lies without question.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      You would agree that spending is a big part of the problem, no?

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        My position has ALWAYS been we have to cut spending AND that the Bush tax cuts were irresponsible since they were passed when we were already SIX TRILLION in debt. 

        It was BUSH and the GOP that sabotaged debt paydown… as we see here from those on the Right, Bush has escaped ALL blame. If Bush had kept his promise to pay down debt as his first priority we would not now be facing a 15 trillion debt.

         

        • Modavations

          Turn around and face the future.50 years from now I can hear the lament,the harangue.It’s Bush’s fault

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            We don’t have to look back 50 years Einstein. We can already see that the bulk of our problems come from RIGHT WING IDEAS… subscribed to by both some Democrats AND virtually ALL Republicans. The difference is that the GOP went further and has deliberately sabotaged the fiscal health of this nation.

      • denis

        no, no, no… spending is not the problem!!!

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          If you spend more than you take in, you either need to earn more or spend less.

          • Anonymous

            @gregcamp:disqus  @a873fb4faaac44337c183cd84924c626:disqus  @df9adcc3221265ab122fea23ae59f7a0:disqus 
            For individuals and businesses that is true over your life span. But governments do NOT have that requirement. The requirement for governments is that their income covers their spending minus what they borrow plus the interest on the debt. That is how governments reduce their debt burden: by growing GDP and tax revenue faster than their debt grows (or the interest on that debt).

            The only time the U.S. had zero debt was during Andrew Jackson’s Presidency and the economy crashed shortly afterwards.

            There is actually a benefit for a country to have a manageable debt: the citizens can buy that debt when they want a safe way of storing money where it will earn interest, even if it is small as is the current case. That was one of the strongest reasons that the head of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, gave for supporting the Bush tax cuts: so that the country would not pay off all its debt and people would not have a safe “money container” of last resort.

          • Modavations

            3% is picture perfect.It’s at 10% and heading up

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Moda AGAIN shows off his lead-impaired intellect by not even stating what the 3% is even of.

            At one point he claimed a deficit that was 3% of GDP was “picture perfect” but with the current deficit, that would be about a $440 BILLION deficit. So how is that “picture perfect” when the debt still grows?

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I don’t know where you got your Greenspan story. If you look back to the writings in late 90′s of the Right… Cato etc, they were afraid a surplus might lead to an expansion of government and decided a surplus might not be a blessing… at least from their point of view. Of course that view hides a larger agenda to use debt as a bludgeon to not just prevent the growth of programs but to sabotage them. Bush ran on a tax cut AND paying down debt. But it’s clear once in power he did everything possible to prevent debt paydown. Why else pass a 10 year tax cut before any debt was paid down?

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        Since you seemed to miss the point of my post. It wasn’t to deny there’s a spending problem… we have an economy with high unemployment for heaven’s sake. It was just to demonstrate that the GOP’s claim there’s NO revenue problem is dishonest.

        Once that’s demonstrated, then we can ask why the GOP feel compelled to lie, and why they have taken common sense solution like increasing revenues off the table.

  • nj

    Supercommittee’s Big Lie:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/the-super-committees-big_b_1103700.html

    Note that those darn “socialist” countries in Northern Europe are in relatively good shape compared to our sinking ship here:

    “The lowest macroeconomic misery is in Northern Europe. Norway has the lowest score, followed by Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, and Demark. All seven countries have lower unemployment rates, smaller budget deficits as a share of GDP, and lower foreign deficits as a share of GDP, than the U.S. We look pretty miserable indeed by comparison.Yet, miracle of miracles, these seven countries collect higher taxes as a share of GDP than does the U.S. Total government revenues in the U.S. (adding federal, state, and local taxes) totaled 31.6 percent of GDP in 2010. This compares with 56.5, 34.2, 39.5, 45.9, 52.7, 43.4, and 55.3 percent of GDP in Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Sweden, Germany, and Denmark, respectively. These much higher levels of taxation are raised through a combination of personal, corporate, payroll, and value-added taxes.”[excerpt]

    • Anonymous

      Interesting how this proves to me that you have pay for a civil society. The tax cutting jihadist are not interested a civil society but social Darwinism. 

  • Newaddress_attitude

    Today’s NYT has an op-ed about a loophole in charitable deductions (concerning so-called “donor-advised funds”) which allows BILLIONS of charitable dollars to work for donors, but without any obligation to distribute the funds for actual charitable activity.  This is a terrible tax policy hole which MUST be filled — especially if congressional leaders can’t figure out how to help Americans in desperate situations. 

  • Terry Tree Tree

    SUPER-FAILURE due to pledge of SUPER-HYPOCRITES!! 
           ‘I pledge allegance to Grover Norquist, and the Super-Rich whiners that are ruining The United States of America!  We HYPOCRITES, that lost $44 Million, trying to save $16 Million, will continue to TAX the poor and working-class, to protect the power of Super-Rich-Foreign-Corporations and their Cronies!’

  • Thomas P.

    Osama bin Laden’s stated goal was to destroy the United States government. Grover Norquist’s stated goal is to destroy the United States government. What’s the difference between the two? None is the answer.

    • pete

      When one can’t make an argument on merits I guess comparing the opposition to Osama bin Laden is all you’ve got left to play. Grover Norquist wants to make government smaller and taxes lower so there will be a freer and more robust economy. Only extreme leftist writers for the Rolling Stone would try to make this seem like
      a nefarious goal.

      • Thomas P.

        Grover Norquist said he wanted to shrink the government until it was small enough to be drowned in a bathtub. Same as Osama bin Laden: a terrorist that wants to overthrow the government. I’m not a leftist writer for any magazine. I’m actually a Republican, and I consider Norquist and his followers to be traitors to this great nation.

        • pete

          “I’m actually a Republican.”

           Uh, huh, sure. Then there’s no doubt you also find Barack Obama to be a traitor and terrorist since he’s increased our debt fourfold since taking office, which has had an incredibly destructive effect on our country.

          Surely as a Republican you’d agree, right? 

          • Anonymous

            @56b54278ca7bb18fb503333b06d515c8:disqus  @120434d0b74c4b2bdb6b7cb8ed4c4b71:disqus 
            The 2009 fiscal budget was projected to have over a $1.3 trillion dollar deficit [CBO] on the day Obama took office in January 2009 and ended with an actual $1.413 trillion dollar deficit.

            The deficit has gone DOWN from that amount every year since, monotonically as a percent of GDP.

            The George W. Bush administration, with the Greenspan Fed, created the conditions that lead to the housing bubble and appointed an SEC chair and DoJ that reduced regulation enforcement, from Madoff to CitiBank and Bank of America mergers and Bear Stearns to Lehman Brothers and A.I.G. which with Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan Chase ran the derivative show with its excessive leverage of toxic mortgages.

            The de-leveraging of all that debt has reduced the wealth of the country by over $12 trillion in home values and up to $60 trillion in bank equity. This caused a huge drop in spending and thus tax revenue for all levels of government.

            If the government cuts spending equally to the drop in revenue, as the states (except for fed support in the ARRA) must, the middle class and working class and poor would have suffered grievously when, for the most part the were NOT the culpable parties in those disasters. From strict fairness it would make more sense to raise taxes on the wealthy who are still making big money (and not investing it in job producing enterprises). But that would not create the replacement of the aggregate demand that has been lost due to deleveraging, so to keep the country from descending from the current doldrums to recession the current deficits are REQUIRED and actually bigger deficits are required to pull the country up faster.

            The main way Obama can be faulted is for not trying to get a bigger stimulus (and bigger deficits for the next two or three years).

      • Terry Tree Tree

        If you ”Drown the government in a bathtub”, isn’t that an act of treason, or terrorism?   Why NOT? 
           Bin Laden’s actions ONLY succeeded due to ‘W’ admin. ‘Holding an exercise of the exact same scenario on that exact day, NOT doing something about the ‘highjackers’, when repeatedly warned of their actions, ‘deciding’to wait for over fifteen minutes to act after being informed that the country was under attack, and a HOST of other planned ‘Mis-steps’, that could NOT have been coincidence!
            The same goes for the ‘pledge’ to Grover Norquist, ABOVE the United States!!!

    • TheDifferenceIs

      Osama bin Laden was a manufactured threat.  Norquist is real.

  • Aaron Miller

    Just seems like the Super Committee was yet another political device to kick the can a little further down the road. Did anyone actually expect anything would come of this endeavor except for more of the same?

    • Patrick

      Nice.  Air time, FTW

  • Patrick

    One of our political parties has gone on strike.

    President Obama has, hopefully, realized that his only position of strength is to let the Republicans strike, and then saddle them with the responsibility for the government’s impotence.  He needs to point out, as loudly and frequently as possible, that the Republicans own this gridlock.

    • Aaron Miller

      “[G]one on strike”, brilliant. The irony alone is delicious.

  • Anonymous

    Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, said on “Meet the Press” that President Obama and White House budget officials “were asked to be hands off.”
    “The Republicans said, ‘Don’t let Obama come into this, because if he does, it will make it political,’ “ Mr. Kerry said, adding, “They’ve been intimately involved, but carefully so that they didn’t politicize it. I think they did the right thing.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/us/politics/lawmakers-concede-budget-talks-are-close-to-failure.html?ref=politics&pagewanted=all

  • Cstockwell

    The debt crisis debacle surely proves to all reasonable Americans that our legislative processes are crippled by the powerful, bullying voices of the far right, and the far left. Blame both in equal portions. The silent middle has been overwhelmed by the boisterous rabble of the fringes and their well organized, self-interested, over-invested support structures. Civility is now “officially” dead. Bipartisanship means weakness. Loyal opposition is passé. The greatest system of government the world has known has been hijacked. 
     
    We must call upon the America’s center majority to rise up and be heard. That’s right. Center-left and center-right voters, joined together by country – not by party or selfish interest – must elect new leaders locally and nationally who seek bipartisanship. Fledgling Centrist movements (like this one) will soon bring form, purpose and passion to America’s middle majority. It is up to us to end the gridlock and bring bipartisanship and progress back to America. Be silent no longer.

    Chris Stockwell, Founder, AmericanCentrist.US blogging at TheCenterIsNotTheProblem.blogspot.com

    • TruthSquad

      How do you compromise with a right wing that has gone insane? Obama, the fool, tried that.

      The only result is those who compromise become half insane.

  • Mark

    For decades we were promised more than we were willing to work for, that our economy could prosper by virtue of “complex financial instruments”, that people could own a home without having to prove their income, that wars could be fought without sacrifice from everyone.  

    Even now, many believe we can afford to throw away the rule book and let the few with good connections do their thing while the rest are set up, like so many fools,  to pick up the ensuing tab from both predictable and unpredictable consequences. 

    The failure of the Supercommittee is symptomatic of how little our lack of vigilance has yielded a disaster now come home to roost.   

    This failure almost ensures the possibility that markets will force changes politicians, and presumably We the People,  have been unable to confront realistically.  It means we are not even capable of acting early enough to blunt the sharp edges of rapid and painful adjustments that are surely on their way. 

  • Haines Je

    You ask who I blame? I blame the American People for not owning responsibility of their politicians whom they voted in. The people need to stand up and take action by fixing our own problems. And the first thing we need to do is have real discussions with real solutions. We can not let the bought and sold politicians in congress work this out. This is our problem.

    • Mark

      Haines, I couldn’t agree more. We get the government we deserve simple as that.

      I’ll add: “throwing the bums out” is both wrong and simplistic. Politicians are not inherently corrupt or evil but the system is broken.  We need to impress on them to fix it – and persist until they do. 

      • CleanSweep

        People in power will do anything to stay in power.

        The system is broken and most politicians are inherently corrupt.

        Throw the carpetbaggers out until our newly elected public officials start serving the people they represent and begin to change the system.

  • TFRX

    A panelist at 15mins described the general feeling of “disgust” and “contempt for Congress” that will only be exacerbated by this committee doing nothing.

    That’s a feature of today’s GOP, not a bug.

    I’d love for our guests to talk about what it was like even in the 1980s when Republicans in the House and Senate actually cared about governance, rather than asked for the keys to the restroom in order to fling feces all over it.

    Thanks, GOP: This is why we can’t have nice things.

  • Leatherstocking

    Oh, the propaganda.

    Do you guys believe, or for that matter do you think NPR/On Point really believes, this phony narrative?

    That the plan was ever designed to succeed?

    That this was anything but a way for both parties to do practically nothing, without many fingerprints on it?

    The “tragic” cuts are not cuts at all, they are reductions in increased spending going forward.

    THEY ARE REDUCTIONS, NOT REVERSALS OR CUTS, OF INCREASED SPENDING GOING FORWARD.

  • Steve

    When the wealthy own both teams on the field is it better to not join the game?

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    If the Right feels compelled to LIE about how much the irresponsible Bush tax cuts have slashed revenues (see numbers below) and if the Right take common sense solutions off the table by claiming new revenues can play NO role in reducing the deficit, it means that truth and common sense THREATENS the Right.

    How can that be… unless the Right WANT a fiscal crisis to exploit for POLITICAL ends… something they obviously could never admit to.

    If that’s true, at what point does the Right’s deliberate sabotaging of the fiscal health of the nation cross the line from treachery to treason?

    • Leatherstocking

      Ultrax, by now, even you should know that this is bigger than the tweedle dee and dum parties.  Their is a bipartisan elite of Central Planning friendly people, who DO want a Global Fiscal crisis, so that quasi-totalitarian economic control can be achieved by technocrats on a global level.

      As co-option of our sovereign, organic, individually powered markets is achieved in exchange for a One World technocratically controlled global economic scheme, we can all, be you a good little guy progressive or good little guy libertarian or good little guy conservative, kiss our experiment in freedom and self-determination good bye.

      Stop worrying about the Bush years so much and see what’s happening now.

      • Anonymous

        @8589f0ae151ef55698bffef689ddc820:disqus  @df9adcc3221265ab122fea23ae59f7a0:disqus 
        ulTRAX has a point: the tactics of Republicans in the Bush administration are largely the SAME as those being used now, and for the SAME END. The only difference is that Republicans do not (yet) control all the levers of government, so they use the filibuster lever ruthlessly in the Senate to bring that body to its knees and give the Republicans an effective veto over all legislation.

        But look at the list of issues being passed in states with Republican control (governor and legislature): cutting labor rights, cutting reproductive rights, cutting spending on the safety net while handing out tax cuts to the wealthy. These issues are all coordinated by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a far-right Republican legislator/business organization (with secret membership) which for decades has been developing pre-packaged model legislation to make state laws extremely favorable to big business and the wealthy. This is why Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Florida, and Maine all debated and passed similar legislation over the first six months after coming to power in the 2010 elections. These laws do not even address the needs of “lesser” citizens, which is what they consider “the 99%.”

        If the past is not understood, the present will not be understood either and selecting the best path to avoid the otherwise coming disaster will be much harder and less likely.

    • nj

      The utility of boldface type is lost when it’s used all the time. It becomes the equivalent of shouting. 

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        Shouting is all CAPS. Bold is emphasis. Now have anything to say on the topic?

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          And shouting is emphatic.  Your use of bold makes reading the text unpleasant.

          • StopWhining

            ACCORDING TO NETIQUETTE THIS IS SHOUTING. MAYBE SOME PEOPLE THINK YOUR PICTURE OR YOUR COMPLAINTS ARE DISTRACTING.

            WE’RE HERE TO DEAL WITH IMPORTANT ISSUES AND YOU’RE COMPLAINING ABOUT OCCASIONAL USE OF BOLD FACE?

            GET A LIFE.

            HEY TRAX, WHY DON’T YOU REPOST SO YOUR COMMENTS ARE READ WITHOUT THE WHINERS WHINES.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Did somebody say something?

          • Modavations

            Ultrax is unbalanced.H’s brought Bush Derangement Syndrome to new heights.By the end of they day,as he gets deeper into the bottle,he will call people at least 1000 names.You’ve lied,you’re Einstein,hey Spanky,ad naseum

          • ModaLies

            Moda, are you still eating lead paint? Perhaps there’s some explanation for your insane blubberings besides mental illness.

          • ModaLies

            And your center-right views are unpleasant.

            Now what?

        • nj

          Being defensive helps your cause no more than your making your posts hard to read so that people are more likely to skip over them.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Maybe these ancient eyes of mine find it EASIER to read bold. Bold and italics are offered as an option for a reason.

            Look, I almost never use bold for an entire post. But there was no line in that post that seemed less important than the others. It’s too late… it’s up on the board.

            Now have anything to add to the topic or not?

          • nj

            And there are standard conventions for the use of boldface and italics as well. You regularly violate them. Good writers don’t have to resort to annoying visual histrionics to make their points.

            I’ll add to the “topic” when i damned well want to.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            What are we doing here… writing goddamn dissertations? With all the right wing idiots here you’re going to bitch and moan about my use of bold face? Get a goddamn life.

            If you don’t like my posts… feel free not to read them.

            Problem solved.

          • ModaLies

            sic ‘em trax!

          • ModaLies

            uh? bold face is now equated with “annoying visual histrionics”?

            you make it sound like trax is using spinning florescent letters. 

            the only one annoying is you. camp was always known to be annoying.

          • Modavations

            This guy is the type who loses his mind and shoots up the Post Office.

          • LeadIsPoison

            Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

            When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        And you NEVER shout, when dealing with gross injustice and fraud?  If you never raise your voice above the shouting opposition, you are never heard.  I have been in public forums, where the side that had an illegitimate stand, or statement, SHOUTED, and then SHOUTED at me, or others for SHOUTING that revelation, in order to be heard.
            I don’t start the shouting, but I know how to make myself heard, when needed!

  • Leatherstocking

    How are we to believe that reductions in INCREASED spending, NOT CUTS in spending, just a lower INCREASE in spending, are something to be talked about in this armageddon language, both for defense Republicans and social spending Democrats?

    This is status quo Big 2-party government normalcy.

    Why do you, the media, treat us like fools?

  • Sam from New York

    Failure of the Super Committee I think is probably the best of the bad options.

    What SHOULD happen next is that the Democrats put forward a proposal to keep the lower tax rates only on the poor, add a millionaire’s tax and billionaire’s, and use that revenue to fund some of the harsher cuts to unemployment and other areas that take money out of the economy quickly.

    I’m not expecting such a proposal to pass and I’m not entirely sure it should, but the Democrats are in a position where they can walk away from the table. They can use this proposal to negotiate from strength.

    As for the military cuts, most of that will just come out of ending the wars. Some of those cuts can be scaled back in negotiations as well.

    What Obama should NOT do (but he probably will) is a repeat of last year’s deal where he agrees to extend all the Bush tax cuts. I would rather see all of them expire than all of them extended.

  • Wes, Cambridge, MA

    The Super Committee? Really? You’ve got  to be kidding! It should be called the Stupid Committee! It was based upon a lie. The lie is that the US is bankrupt. The US continues to be the richest country in the world. The truth is in a new report from the Institute for Policy Studies, called “America is Not Broke.” Check it out:

    http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/america_is_not_broke

    Throw all the bums out! When are we going to get some sanity in government? The Stupid Committee was all political theater. They never expected to be able to get a deal. It was all a sham based upon a lie! Stop playing stupid games with the our lives! We deserve better than this!
     

  • Anonymous

    Jon Kyl inadvertently admitted that Republicans negotiated in bad faith and ignored the mandate of the Super Committee:

    “We went into the exercise to try to reduce federal government spending. What we get from the other side is, no, we won’t make more cuts unless you raise taxes.”

    The Super Committee’s mandate was to cut THE DEFICIT, and to look at both spending cuts AND tax increases to accomplish that.

    Jon Kyl hopes you don’t know what the word “more” means, because if you know what the word “more” means, you also know that:

    1) Democrats agreed to spending cuts even though
    2) Republicans have not agreed to raised taxes
    3) and Republicans wanted Democrats to make more spending cuts
    4) even though Republicans refused to consider raising taxes.

  • Michiganjf

    Why are SO MANY WEALTHY coming out and saying they are happy to pay more taxes… ACTUALLY WANT TO pay higher taxes?

    Because they realize that their contribution will result in improvements to the society in which THEY ALSO LIVE!!!

    The only people asking for ever more tax ciuts for the wealthiest 1% is the Republican Party politicians and a handful of their fanatic base!!!

    … andf YES! President Obama is exactly correct in vetoing any effort by Republicans to skirt around the “super committee” debt cutting deal!!

    • TFRX

      My guess: This nobless oblige attitude of the wealthy don’t want to wonder “What could I have done” when their descendants, 30 years hence, can’t get anywhere except via armored limosine.

  • Hidan

    Please call this guy on this BS. and Toomey supposed tax hikes.

  • Leatherstocking

    Dear Jacki,

    Can you ask your guests to address the fact that the draconian “cuts” we face, are not actually spending cuts, but rather reductions in the rate of increasing government spending?

    Thank you.

  • Anonymous

    Nice for Norquest to build a brand at the expense of the country

    • Steve

      Grover works hard and from what I can tell is passionate in his beliefs – good for him.

      I think that they may be the problem; we are allowing him to large of a playing field.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        What is his passionate belief?  The destruction of the United States! 
            If he and his Republican Puppets were serious about helping the U.S., they would have proposed cuts to their own pet projects, and their own ridiculous incomes, to PROVE it!  Instead, they seem to sell their souls to the GREEDY rich, in hopes that they will be ‘taken care of’!!

        • TFRX

          Helping the US? They don’t need to “give in” and be “nice and fair”.

          I’d settle for something akin to the “enlightened self-interests” that our economic uberlords are always telling us we need. Or our mainstream press narrativizing their dysfunction as such.

        • Steve

          I need to work as hard as he does

          • FascistAgenda

            Just become a fascist like him.  He would enjoy putting you to work.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            What’s stopping you from working as hard as Grover?  How hard does he work?  What does he work at?  DOES he work?

        • Modavations

          Smaller Nanny State.Arn’t these greedy men the very same that Pres.Obama has surrounded himself with?.I don’t believe they’re all greedy.Just Obama,s CRony capitalist, types.

      • QuestionableWaterboy

        Norquist is very passionate about his beliefs:

        Grover promotes Islamic relations in the US.

        Grover received financing from individuals and organizations connected to the Muslim Brotherhood. 

        Grover has been married to a Palestinian Muslim woman since 2004.

        http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/04/is-grover-norquist-an-islamist

        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/05/16/114398/-Just-Who-Is-Grover-Norquist

        http://frontpagemag.com/2011/11/08/the-muslim-brotherhood-penetrates-the-republican-party

        http://grendelreport.posterous.com/grover-norquist-muslim-mole-useful-dupe-ii

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    The implicit core argument of the Tax Cut Psychos on the far Right is no matter how much debt we have or how big the deficit, they should be free to slash revenue as much as they want.

    If there are resulting budget problems, they remain eternally blameless. It all the fault of those who didn’t slash spending to compensate. If they sabotaged debt paydown by slashing revenues, they are blameless there too… and their irresponsible actions must NEVER be reversed.
     This is the sort of spoiled-brat reasoning you’d expect to find on a kindergarten playground… not in the halls of Congress… and yet this is what passes for the political position of one of our major parties.

    God help us when 50% of the nation embraces insanity.   

  • TFRX

    Current caller blaming “both parties” at :30.

    Mission accomplished, Grover!

  • Dpweber83

    Please cut this woman off…public employees are not the reason we’re in debt.

    -dan
    Boston, MA

  • Leatherstocking

    If this caller wants to vote all the bums out, why doesn’t she just say so?

    That’s how accountability works in our self government.

    We are always looking for saviors.

    • Dpweber83

      Seriously.  Screen these people.

      • Leatherstocking

        I don’t want screening, I would like a simple fact-based response from the hosts/guests, that would actually educate the rest of the self-government lazy and under-apprecitating listeners.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        They DO screen the callers!  Try it sometime. 

  • Tina

    Medicare only pays 80% of what it agrees is your medical bill.  Many people on Medicare have no other medical coverage; many more people will be in this situation as companies eliminate perks (sp?).  HOW IN THE WORLD DO REPUBLICANS THINK THAT OLDER PEOPLE CAN PAY FOR THE ILLNESSES THEY WILL INEVITABLY FALL PREY TO?!!!!  We actually need HIGHER TAXES AND 100% MEDICAL COVERAGE.

    Again. the Scandinavian countries manage to do this.  WHY do we look to the countries that are FAILING for examples, instead of to the countries that have managed to manage their public services WELL?!!!!!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      If the patient went to a Non-profit organization some patients’ balance will be written-off but if they went to see a doctor at for profit Hospital the story will be different. Best answer for the elderly is to Work until they past out. by working they have another insurance coverage or a secondary health insurance plan to cover the claims that were not paid by Medicare.

      • Tina

        Sadly, many people right now are already working that second job you suggest,yet NEITHER of their jobs offer health care!   Also, I have an illness that is practically a full-time job all by itself; then there is the matter of my lost stamina due to both the disease AND the treatments.  I do NOT find consolation in your system, sadly.  

  • Dpweber83

    “The American government needs to get it together and do the right thing for the American people.”

    Well, that’s my platitude quota for the day.  Thanks, caller, for proving why our elected officials revert to this pablum: because people like you consider it a basis for sound public policy.

    -dan
    Boston, MA

    • TFRX

      Don’t leave out the mediascape.

      How can the caller not when the commercial media goes to its “Excessive Belligerence” laugh track (“Oh noes! Why is governance soooo…partisan?”) whenever, and only whenever, a Democrat starts taking their own side in the fight?

  • Revelz

    Part of the blame goes to what Sarah Palin calls the Lamestream Media for withholding from the Occupy movement what they lavished on the Tea Party: credulous analysis of positions that politicians consider extreme and linkage with substantial and respectable religious organizations. Occupy Wall Street has a position paper, which includes understandable proposals like bringing back the Glass Steagall Act and requirements for on-shoring employment or enduring punishments. Single payer health care is not any more of a failed idea than Big Pharma, so why is it being treated like an inability to come up with something new? As to religious organizations, many of us not only took in Occupiers when the encampments became dangerous, but we honor the Occupiers to bringing some media attention to calls of alarm that we have been raising for quite some time, as a result of pastoral connections with our people.

    Reverend Elz Curtiss
    Burlington, Vermont

  • Ellen Dibble

    The Grover Norquist pledge (and the threat to undo politicians’ careers for noncompliance) seems unhinged from clear strong vision of where the country is going.  On its face, it pushes us towards policies that favor the campaign-financing “class,” i.e., the “investor class.” 
        This might work for us if the investor class was steering us toward success.  I guess you could say I lived my life according to Grover’s pledge up to about age 45.  I put all my pennies into investments, and I did not do much of any consuming, nor much of any investing in myself, my health, my skills, ways I could participate more strongly, being a strong element of the economy and culture.  I “sat tight,” and put my money where it would help new businesses, where banks could distribute it to Five-Year Plans or whomever.  
        What is wrong with that picture?  Tax-wise it had advantages.  It leaves me with a bit of security for my old age (if the economy holds together).  But it left me beginning in many ways in middle age.  And by the way, students starting life with debt and no prospects are in a similar place.
        It hamstrings our economy.  No consumption.  A lame populace.  

  • Mary

    Whom do I blame? In large part, the Occupy protestors. Instead of harnessing their collective energies on behalf of the 99% by occupying the offices of Senators and Representatives to force them into legislating to tax fairness, they’ve taken to parks and quads and drained off their potential energies by shouting into the wind. The Republicans must love them;  instead of being a potent populist political force in the manner of the “Arab Spring,” the Occupy people have settled on being a flash mob that’s becoming stale news–unless some campus cops  pepper spray them.

    • nj

      It’s easy to criticize people who are at least trying to make a difference.

      What are you doing? Have you occupied your representatives’ offices? What’s keeping you from getting a dozen people together to do it?

      • TFRX

        I don’t know that she’s got a well-balanced media diet.

      • Ellen Dibble

        I don’t think the number of people “occupying” could be accommodated in even the most spacious legislative offices.  And that would be IF the Capitol police would let them set up camp in those offices.  My suspicion is that the Occupy folks have tried petitioning for redress of grievances.  Some of them have written Congress, called Congress, e-mailed Congress, tweeted Congress, and enough of them have the impression that an inundation of constituency input makes no difference that they have decided to make their point not in private to their rep but in public, and on an ongoing basis.  What that point is seems to vary somewhat, but a lot of us understand what the problem is.  If there were an easily defined solution, you can bet someone would be trying to run for office on that solution.  But we need what, 465 people running for office on that solution, or something over half of that.   And the solution is in shades of gray, of mist.

    • Leatherstocking

      The difference between Arab spring and Us, is we have a representative democracy based on a Constitution that establishes self-government. They have autocratic rulers.

      We are pathetic, in that we have the system, of voting, and Rule of Law principle, and instead of actually executing those systemic tools, we cry, whine and look for essentially a communistic solution.

      Study and think about, equal Rule of Law, and think about what we need/needed to do to punish the Banking/Washington malefactors, that WE FAILED to do.

      Calling our whole system a failure is lazy and pathetic. WE FAILED.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      OWS really needs to move to a Phase 2… Educate Main Street.

  • Anonymous

    When government is so dysfunctional it makes the Republican’s anti-government case.  In other words, Repbulicans go in and break things so they can point and say “See!  Government is the problem!”

    • nj

      Their motto should be, “Government doesn’t work. Elect us and we’ll prove it!”

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      This is the Right’s MO. They undermine workers with free trade and go after unions. Then when private sector wages are driven down, they use it as a wedge issue to create resentment of the public sector… and try to drive their wages down too.

      We see that with irresponsible tax cuts. When the bottom income workers are removed, they claim LOOK!, the rich as paying more as a “percentage” of the remaining taxes… even if they pay LESS in actual dollars. We must further CUT the taxes on the rich!!!

      When they break the budget with these irresponsible tax cuts, they then use the fiscal crisis THEY created to push for cuts to programs they’ve always opposed.

        

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    Where’s the Constitutional authority to have a world wide military empire?

    • Modavations

      Mr.Ultrax.Please tell the listeners what you would do with the revenues you want to raise.I’ve asked and asked.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        ulTRAX has repeatedly said that he would also cut spending, intelligently!  AFTER the U.S. is back on sound financial footing, we would start intelligently, and reasonably cutting the size and scope of government! 
            If Republicans were serious about cutting waste and fraud, they’d have started long ago with their pet programs, and cut waste and fraud!

  • Leatherstocking

    Conclusion:

    We are screwed.

    We have a self-government system, a gift from our founders and all those who fought to build and defend it.

    It has never been perfect, as imperfect as we who must live out it’s ideals.

    Now, in this time of crisis, the population IMO is really too uninformed and politically/economically immature to be able to understand how to take back our system from the 2-party/corporate elites and re-establish an equal rule of law that our Constitution makes possible for us.

    Since we cannot now handle self government, and can no longer appreciate the benefits/gifts of it, our liberty, and our free markets, as long as ill-doers are punished, we now are going to look for the benevolent dictator, or benevolent “super committee” of experts, to save us from ourselves.

    The ease with which so many of you seem to be ready to hand over your individual sovereignty and judgement and self-determination, in exchange for an authoritarian savior to deliver age-old utopian dreams, is distressing, and frightening.

    • Steve

      When has the US operated under a free-market system?

      • Leatherstocking

        That’s what I meant by our not appreciating our liberty, free-markets and rule of law.

        Things that are currently corrupted, but that rather than re-establishing them, or even Establishing them for once, people like to blame them, and are now looking for Utopian answers in a panic.

        • Steve

          There is no utopia as long as I keep posting here.

        • Anonymous

          Why don’t we all just be nice to each other?  That’s about as practical a solution as your incantations about “our liberty, free-markets and rule of law.”   

          • Leatherstocking

            ?

            Seriously, why do you say that?

            Western Civilization is largely based on liberty, free-markets and the rule of law.

            By all means be nice to each other.  And then concentrate on prosecuting all the colluders and fraudsters found in Washington and the Finance world. USE the Rule of Law for once, as intended, to prevent tyranny of ANY kind.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            If we ALL treated others as we want to be treated, we would have our liberty, free markets, and rule of law!

  • onpoint080

    Why didn’t your panelists address the essence of the comment of the last caller:  namely, that the corporations and big businesses have sent the jobs to China or other foreign countries.  That is another big tax break for the businesses!

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    If the inmates in Congress don’t want to do their job, can I have it? I need a job, an having to make one income provide for three people certainly qualifies me for budgeting.

    I know that I can’t decrease my income and pay my bills and the things I need to live.  I also know that when my boss got his tax rate cut it didn’t filter down to my coworkers and me.  Why Republicans can’t figure this out I don’t know.

    ***
    Start with low hanging fruit:

    Opting millionaires (income, not just assets) out of receiving social services. 

    Get US troops out of Europe, save for a very few, select bases we do need for staging and medical needs. Keeping troops in the Asian Pacific rim I get, but the cold war is over.

    Stop the subsidies for oil, ethanol, big agriculture. 

    Tax capital gains.  Hedge fund managers are not creating jobs. The “job creators” aren’t creating jobs, they’re sitting on +$2.1 Trillion. 

    Tax businesses on the business they do in the US. How do Big Oil companies pay zero taxes, or worse, get millions in refunds, while being the biggest companies in the world and touting record profits?  They have “offices” in Ireland, the Caymans, the Bahamas, etc., that’s how. Most aren’t offices, but empty rooms or a mailbox. Some have actual offices because someone cracked a whip, but few and far between. By the current logic, a foreign tourist shouldn’t have to pay taxes on anything they buy here because their workplace isn’t in the US.

  • TFRX

    Current caller (Middlebury, CT) said “If we tax all the money from rich people it won’t do hardly anything”. Great strawmanning. Great false equivalence.

    So the response is “Okay, thank you for these comments?”

    Time to get a real liberal on the panel, Jacki.

    • Ellen Dibble

      That call nicely lined up the actual challenge.  Exactly where do we draw the line between those “haves” who can help us chip away at our national debt, and interest on the debt.  Obama went into his presidency saying he wouldn’t ask for more from anyone earning over $250,000, not specifying whether that was in capital gains or income.  But that is different than a million dollars.  So that’s square A.  Square B is where do we draw the lines on the Medicare, Social Security, and everything else.

      • TFRX

        You’ve fleshed out some paragraph-level thinking. But in the current mediascape, I don’t think Nice Polite Republicans needs one more Fox/Beltway echo, given the few number of calls they take.

        As of September last year the NPR ombud said in an interview “Republicans are more represented on NPR because they’re newsmakers”. They always have an excuse to put more right-wingers on NPR, and to not break the narrative we see on the Evening News.

        I think Tom would have handled this better.

        • TFRX

          By which I mean I don’t think Nice Polite Republicans needs one more phone call which is simply a Fox echo given the makeup of the panel, and their reluctance to fight leftwards out of a wet paper bag of a Beltway Inbred narrative.

        • Ellen Dibble

          I think Tom comes back tomorrow.  Maybe he’ll get a chance at a similar topic.

          • TFRX

            Tomorrow?

            I thought he was a bit higher on the totem pole than “Hey, you just came back from painful joint surgery, and you get to work the day before Thanksgiving”!

          • Ellen Dibble

            See his twitter feed, tomashbrooknpr and so on.  I happened to check it yesterday.   

        • Iowa

           I know Tom would’ve handled it better.  Jackie leaves a lot to be desired.  I hope he’s back tomorrow.

    • Leatherstocking

      Straw man? for what?  Its true.

      Yes, raising taxes on very high annual incomes may be the right thing to do right now, for a variety of reasons, but to imply that it will solve our debt is the straw man.

      His point, is that people, all people need to understand these facts.

      Tons of people DO think that simply raising taxes will solve our fiscal problems.

      YOU don’t believe that mathematically false nonsense do you?

      People need to understand the magnitude of our fiscal problem if we have any chance of peacefully dealing with it on  our own, sovereign terms.

      • TFRX

        Who’s implying that it will solve our debt?

        One side says “Hey, let’s return this one policy to normal. It will help”. And the other side says “Waaahhhh! Job creators! Uncertainty” and other such bull.

        But don’t stop on my account: You’ve now become the caricature of a Libertarian that I could only dream of having disagree with me.

        • Leatherstocking

          We can agree, if you want…

          “One side says “Hey, let’s return this one policy to normal. It will help”. And the other side says “Waaahhhh! Job creators! Uncertainty” and other such bull.”

          My point is more often one side is NOT saying/implying, “return to normal/it will help”, but rather, just raise taxes and all will be solved”.

          I understand the disingenuous nature of the other side.

          It’s just most of your commentary sides with what I was criticizing, not working toward a realistic, holistic solution within our basic system.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            You, evidently, have NOT been reading ulTRAX, NOR listening to the President, or SOME of the Democrats! 
                Yet you attack his and their positions?

          • TFRX

            He’s got his idee fixe and nothing will knock him off it.

            Can we get a Libertarian in here who doesn’t suck up all the talking points about lefties from Fox News and Rush?

          • Leatherstocking

            Please feel free to quote me on my Fox talking points. No paraphrasing please.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        For 30 years, the ‘conservatives’ have said that tax cuts for the rich would fix the economy, create jobs, and make us all rich! 
            The ‘conservatives’ need to start cutting the programs that enrich their contributors, and puppet-masters, to PROVE they can make REAL cuts! 
            What has stopped the ‘conservatives’ from cutting the fraud and waste from their pet programs, and the fraud and waste created by their supporters? 
            Are they just HYPOCRITES?

        • Leatherstocking

          how about they are a minority? how about to call the establishment  GOP “conservative” is a joke, aside from their rhetoric?

          If we are brutally honest, the “bipartisan” style Republicans and Dems are really the biggest problem, as neither act out of principle, letting them compromise which somehow always equals more debt.

          The tea party wing seems sincere in their fiscal conservatism. While we may not like their social values, we should at least give them credit for being honest in their quest to reduce spending.

          Mainstream GOPer are of course hypocrites on so many things. Just like the mainstream Dems who are mainstream GOP-lite. All  spineless votes for debt-based promises prostitutes.

          Our quest for “bipartisanship”, in lieu of developing a sharp, fundamental American vision that addresses our problems while preserving our core classically liberal values, seems to be our undoing.

          Now, socially progressive, fiscally sane (libertarian) and socially progressive, economically struggling (progressive democrats), CANNOT get together and make rational change, as the Authoritarian, and fully fiscally irresponsible GOP/DNC bailout, crony capitalism, “bipartisan” clowns take us off the rails, promising both military dominance and cradle to crave nanny benefits they can’t deliver, and that stifle our dynamism.

          I’m still convinced that if a socially progressive, fiscally sane (sound money, and making the case for true free/fair organic markets) libertarian candidate, without baggage and with a decent delivery, could get through the mainstream media 2-party protection racket (unlikely), they could win a general election.

    • Anonymous

      I too am infuriated by this ignorant point of view, which essentially says “even if I use all my money to pay off my debt, it won’t be enough, so why use any of it toward retiring my debt?”

      And I expect those making these arguments actually fall into the more-intelligent-than-average “conservative” camp. 

      Ignorance is only bliss for those who would use yours for their own gain.

  • Anonymous

    I once owed the IRS a small amount of money and the government came at me with everything and levied my salary.  Perhaps we should levy politicians’ salaries and see what happens…  I bet things start getting done!

    • Anonymous

      I’m sorry this argument is kind of silly.
      I do think they should buy retirement funds like the rest of us and health insurance. We also need to get rid of lobbyist and the money influence they have. Lobbying should be allowed, but no money should exchange hands.  

      • Ellen Dibble

        There’s been enough on the news for me to notice.  Newsweek had an article about Senator Kerry, among others, deriving massive, massive stock benefits from knowing in advance, from being on deciding committees.  I believe there’s a book on this.  And I believe Scott Brown, Republican Mass. senator, has set in motion a bill to squelch such “insider” trading, and even Republicans are signing onto it.  I don’t know what Elizabeth Warren is going to say.  Maybe OnPoint addressed this while I wasn’t paying attention.  See Newsweek, “The Wonk who Slays Washington, Congres is getting rich off Wall Street and Peter Schweizer “Won’t Stop Until Everyone Knows it.”  It’s Peter Schweizer who I think should be googled on this.  ”The Kerry trustees’ ipeccable timing in drug company trades was evident again in 2007, when the federal government… shares were unloaded to avoid losses, valued at between $500,000 and $1,000,000, “were unloaded more than a week before the government’s announcement.”  Example after example.  Newsweek, November 21, page 33.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I don’t think we have much leverage, whether in salary, health benefits, or pension benefits, over our federal representatives.  Too much of their remuneration comes from cushy stock deals, the rewards of becoming the kind of consultant Newt Gingrich exemplifies, able to trade off influence.  The amount of money floating around congresspeople, easy to grab out of the atmosphere of a rich country, its rich trying to win their favor, that money makes the official “pay” quite insignificant.

  • Anonymous

    How is it that not one person on this show did not call this mans ideas absurd. When one builds a factory, which was done a lot after WW2 when we had more debt than we have now, seems to have escaped this mans argument. Taxes were higher as well and yet we had a lot of growth.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Not to mention, we were pouring a lot of resources into rebuilding Germany, right?  The Marshall Plan?  Which kind of paid off, but back then we believed in ourselves.  Nowadays, looking at the low pay that keeps people going in China and so on, we think no, we aren’t that good.  We can’t compete on a level playing field, and so we argue about irrelevant things.

      • Anonymous

        Well the Marshall plan was a very good idea based on not keeping Europe in ruins. It helped us as we sold them a lot of goods.
        It helped them by rebuilding the economies of a war torn Europe.

        We can’t compete with China.

        • Ellen Dibble

          Tom Friedman thinks we can compete with China.  He thinks we HAVE to.  That is where the helpful economists and policy makers have to put on their thinking caps.  How do we compete in this world?  

          • Anonymous

            You can’t compete with what amounts to slave labor.

          • Ellen Dibble

            I think exploitation, extracting the most profit, is the definition of capitalism, and we may have fought a bloody Civil War to get the actual slavery out of our economy, but after a long, slow slog, the exploitation for profit has again shown itself to be at the heart of capitalism.  If we can’t do it here (at least not as callously), then we’ll let countries with fewer scruples do our exploitation for us, and “launder” the abuses out of it during the transportation between country A and B.  Call it “free trade.”
                 I get that.  However, simply (“simply”) saying we “can’t compete with slave labor” concedes.  We’ll shrink as a country, as the world’s visionary, as a power, unless we figure this out.
                 Either NO country creates strength by abusive extraction of human labor (and manipulating people’s lives this way and that), or we have to figure out a way to co-exist letting them trounce us wage-wise.   Right now it seems we co-exist in ever greater national weakness, more in jail, more in ill health, more on the dole of this sort of that, more unprepared education-wise…  By the time the ballooning debt — the next generation had better be extraordinary, is all I can say.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          We CAN compete with China!! Big Money doesn’t want to!!  They squelch any attempts to do so!!

  • Yar

    Your guest just said:”We start to get into unsustainable territory”?  
    When have we ever been sustainable?

  • Tina

    To the man who just called from Joe Wilson’s South Carolina district, 

    THANK YOU for your heart-rending call!  What you’re pointing out is what America needs to hear!  My best wishes to you and all in your district (and to all of us!).  One problem with the Republicans is that they are TRULY shameless!  That is to say, they cannot even be shamed into acting in our best interests, no matter how clearly the “picture” of what it’s like for so many Americans is expressed; they only act on their own behalf.  Psychologically, how did America create these monsters???  And, how come so many disadvantaged Americans are falling for the Republican brand?!!!  It’s almost as if people ARE listening in sound bytes rather than in comprehensive, systemic thinking?  Thank you for your call which ran clear as a bell!

  • Modavations

    90% of journalists say they are Dems.150% of NPR are Dems.Is there a bigger Dem.Rump Swab then Mr Harwood.I don’t even have t6o talk about the  Rolling Stone guy.

    • Anonymous

      Incoherent rambling.

    • TFRX

      Wow. So a newsroom is a democracy where editors, publishers and advertisers don’t have extra sway.

      Great job of opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

    • Leatherstocking

      It was incredible in the intro questions early in the show, how he spoke with such “objective” authority:

      paraphrase: ” of course Obama could not do anything else after the Boehner talks broke down. He could not have assumed any further leadership role, and rightly left it to the Congress”

      even though he noted that was actually a campaign method, “as well”

    • nj

      More statistics from the Bureau of Moda-troll’s Butt.

    • Anonymous

      Probably because they’re more informed and logical than the average person.  How could any reasonably intelligent person with some knowledge of history and mathematics be a Republican, unless they are a gullible single issue voter or as member of the uberclass?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      ???

    • LeadIsPoison

      Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

      When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

  • Erin in Iowa

    Explain to me why conservatives say “taking away all the rich people’s money won’t pay off the deficit” and then turn around and say “we should defund Planned Parenthood” like that will fix it. Give me a break. They WANT to fail, they WANT the president to fail, they WANT the tax system to fail, they WANT social security to fail – it only makes their point more valid.

    • TFRX

      But common figures show that restoring those tax rates to politically popular, economist-approved, historically normative and successful levels will only raise ~$700B, whereas defunding PP will save us up to $150m*.

      “Only $700 billion” versus “Ohmygod $150 milllion!” :-0

      (*Of course, all those unplanned pregnancies and spread of STDs are just the collateral damage which are part of any war.)

  • Annie

    I object to the characterization of equal culpability of Democrats and Republicans; President Obama tried to work out a deal with John Boehner in which he offered cuts to entitlement programs, and Boehner, to his credit, almost agreed, but the majority of Boehner’s Republican colleagues had already taken the Grover Norquist “No taxes” pledge, so no deal. Once the “super” committee was given the task of coming up with a plan, Republicans once again refused to consider the revenue side. Why must the compromise come only from the Democrats? Now the Republicans, having absorbed the “tea party,” a group of dysfunctional anti-government government employees (!!???) are even more more entrenched in the “no taxes” craziness, which in turn causes the Democrats to dig in their heels. It’s sickening, I’m sorry for it, I feel like apologizing to my daughter, and all the young people in this country. To hear the Republicans now blaming the super committee’s failure on the President’s “Unwillingness to get involved” is farcical.

  • Modavations

    Mr Ultrax,cheerleader of Big Govt.I hope you took some economic lessons today.I have asked you 15 times what you would do with the revenues you keep insisting on.I wait with bated breath.

    • Witterquick

      How about not spending it on something new and shiney, but paying of the “credit card”?

      • Modavations

        He wants to raise taxes and use it for more bogus,vote buying schemes.he’s a coward and afraid to admit it

    • Constapations

      Keep waiting with your bad breath – no one wants to play in poop-strewn sandbox anymore.

    • LeadIsPoison

      Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

      When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

  • TFRX

    Panelist at :45 says “Obama can’t say ‘do-nothing Congress’ because Democrats share it, control the Senate”.

    Please put this man into a time machine before 60 wasn’t the new 51. Can someone describe “record number of holds and filibusters” to a supposed expert?

  • Leatherstocking

    “This is what Democracy Looks Like!”

    Voting.

    Self-Educating

    Prosecuting Criminals.

    Being sure the Rule of Law applies to all.

    Defending our Sovereignty.

    Governing ourselves as much as possible, and not just ceding massive power to centralized bureaucrats, hoping they do the right thing and give us everything we want while we play video games or do face-time with our yuppie pals.

  • margaret/Omaha,NE

    Rather than listen to self-serving remarks of the congressional players.
    Blame the voter(people) who allowed divided visions to dominate DC

  • Leatherstocking

    So, has it been answered, how reducing the RATE of INCREASING spending, not a true CUTTING of any spending, can be characterized as “terribly difficult cuts”?

    WITH sequestration:

    Defense spending will STILL INCREASE

    Entitlement spending will STILL INCREASE

    • Modavations

      We heard you loud and clear.Take a bow

  • Anonymous

    I don’t know about anyone else but Jackie Lydon’s insistence of cutting callers off before they complete their points is getting tiresome.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      It’s about time for someone here to do that.  Too many of them drone on and on.  This is live radio, not a therapy session.

    • Modavations

      How dare she stray from the partry line.Off with her head.yOU GUYS ARE  Thought Police,Book Burners

      • Anonymous

        You are good for comic relief and not much else.
        I’m not sure were you get the book burning thing from. This is more prevalent with the right wing and in this country with the evangelical right. Oh I know in your world you think nazis are socialist and they were big on book burning.

        • Modavations

          And the dude who offed JFK was also a communist.You two might be related

          • WhoKilledJFK

            JFK was killed by a TX mafia boss. The FBI has the tapes of his confessions. He’s the one who planted the false lead it was Castro. LBJ went to his grave believing that but covered it up fearing a war with the USSR.

      • LeadIsPoison

        Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

        When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Cebu? 

          • Modavations

            Philipines.I ‘ve got pals who make shell jewelry over there

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Pertinent to gnawing lead paint?

  • Modavations

    Mr Rolling Stone,the Rep.Party is the party of small business.The Dem.Party is bifurcated::: the cheerleader of the Ultra Rich and the Crony Capitalist and the party of the Social Worker,whose job is to keep the poor,poor.There is a vast difference.Where is J.Corzine.The 600 mill.theft,is now up to 1.2 billion.

    • TFRX

      Considering how many psychoactive meds you claim to be on (or off), your antipathy towards social workers smacks of denial.

    • Leatherstocking

      The communists at heart, who have never worked/created real value, outside the government-subsidized sector, or the Crony-Corporate, Fed-subsidized sector, which is sadly, probably the majority, will never understand.

      I’ve made my living from University/research (grant) related work, and while some is tuition, which could be considered honest money, much was government supported, and even I can admit and appreciate the above!

      • Leatherstocking

        Important to see, that the Fed Funny Money-supported Big Corporate sector that supplies/ied so many peoples jobs, is welfare by another name (Inflation).

        We should be a trades, local markets culture, making and doing real, productive things in a free market system IMO.

      • Anonymous

        I’m not completely following you, but is your position “now that I have made my living off a system that I now detest, it should be stopped”?   Shouldn’t you return all your ill-gotten gains?

        • Leatherstocking

          Almost, but not quite. I have nothing against tax-payer supported basic research, and choosing that as a profession.  I don’t detest that. 

          But I also know that that can only come from tax-payer money, unless I am fortunate enough (not) to be a gentleman-scientist, as once was how science was pursued.

          The point is that just because things make us comfortable, and we more or less stumble into them as we grow up and look for “jobs”, doesn’t mean they are sustainable, writ large.

          Ie we can’t all be government researchers because who do we tax to fund it?  Government taxes the government? Closest thing to that would be true Communism, State control of production and everything else.

          I like science, but that’s not worth it to me…..

      • Terry Tree Tree

        ???

    • ProtectYourKids

      Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

      When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

      • Modavations

        When I was a kid we’d play in the woods all day,catching frogs and snakes.Our mother’s would ring the bell when it was time for supper.You guys wrap your kids in “bubble wrap” and play helicopter mom.

  • Witterquick

    Need a quick lesson.  Who sets the rules for Congress (i.e., like a rule that you can’t become a lobbyist).  I ask because if we leave Congress to make rules that govern themselves, we will always have an expensive “do nothing” group of empolyees.  If our only recourse is to not renew their contract (re-election) we will always be screwed.

  • GMG

    People aren’t investing because of weak demand, not because of uncertainties about tax policy.  I wish the right-wing noise machine would stop misleading people about this one. Their distortions are leading to bad policy.

  • Yar

    Why isn’t entitlement reform considered a tax on future recipients?  Shifting costs back to the individual is a ‘tax increase’ on them.  They will have less disposable income as a result. 

  • jim

    I STRONGLY believe, after hearing insider’s trading in washington last week, the top priority to reduce our deficit is to reduce the salary of congressional “leaders” and eliminate their entitlement programme, ie their pension. I STRONGLY believe they deserve NOTHING from tax payers for their service. THAT is the way to reduce our trillion dollar deficit over time. And if they think they are patriotic Americans they SHOULD DO IT instead of raping this country and its coffers.

    • TFRX

      Not sure about that.

      Donald Trump can afford to take no salary to be a Congresscritter.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    This how Capitalism treats us!!!!! We go to college and borrowed almost $80,000 to $150,000 for a 4 year college degree. We look for jobs that pays $35,000 to $80,000 a year or even lesser than that or no jobs at all. Plus we are going to buy a house another $80,000 to $600.000 depending where you live and pay the mortgage for another 30 to 60 years or never paid off the house until we are 6 feet under.

    This is the life that we want for this is not life.
    “We slaving our lives for money”

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      That’s American life.

    • Modavations

      Get your money back.I’m I supposed to pay it

      • Terry Tree Tree

        ???

    • Leatherstocking

      Who forces people to go to college and pay those rates?

      Lemmings (I may be as guilty) will do as lemmings will do.

      We have to understand that the world will always be dynamic and that people will always try and succeed at profiting from other peoples greed or ignorance, one way or another.

      Only constant vigilance and humility, in terms of our self-government and our consumption choices will ever protect us from that truism.

      It should be obvious, once the government starts expanding its loans (payment guarantees to Colleges), the Colleges will keep jacking up its rates.  Just like housing, and it always ends in collapse.  

      Housing bubble.   College degree bubble- where the notion of their being honestly productive work to be their for all those degrees that could remotely pay back the subsidized “prices” that were paid.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Many employments REQUIRE a college degree, although the job DOES NOT require that level of training!  NOT lemmings, just people trying to support themselves, honorably!

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    It took us how long to get to this point, why are people looking for an overnight fix?  If they start with small fixes and the low hanging fruit, and those in the government don’t do what they usually do and see either extra money that can be spent on some pet project or “if a little is good, then more is better” and slash recklessly, they might get something accomplished and have time to see what’s working and what’s not.

    • Leatherstocking

      Problem is, take a look at the Debt Clock.  With the Interest Payment reality, we can’t walk ourselves back at the same rate we walked ourselves ahead.

      People need to start serious conversations about how we are going to peacefully, “fairly” start facing some serious material reductions to our expected standards of living.

      The fantasy of taking everything from the rich and passing it out, and then we can avoid any pain, has been mathematically disproved many times and is only still parroted by the dimmest DNC talking point lemmings.

      You can be furious with the 2-party/Washington/Banking elite who delivered this latest chapter in their master plan, and also recognize the dire and materially significant reality of the challenge we now face, in terms of both economics and self-government, at the same time.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        The GREEDY rich and corporations, foreign and domestic (most are foreign!) call for sacrifice, while taking MORE!
            The mis-direction of claiming that the majority of people want to confiscate the assets of the wealthy for re-distribution, ignores reality, and is a FRAUD!

      • Scott B, Jamestown NY

        The Dems aren’t looking to be Robin Hood and  “steal from the rich and give to the poor.” They are trying to make the tax rates fair. This idea that the rich are the generators of “all things good” (like employment) and therefore deserve tax breaks.  I’ve yet to see anyone prove that someone earning (income, not worth) a million dollars and has to pay up to 4% more won’t be able afford to pay their bills, put food on their table, gas in their cars to get to work, or stay out of the poor house. I have also not seen anyone prove that raising the capital gains tax on billionaire hedge fund managers will put them at some disadvantage, or how those hedge fund managers are “job creators” for many beyond upscale product makers. For that matter I haven’t heard a reasonable explanation as to why capital gains aren’t considered income.

        • Leatherstocking

          I’m for progressive taxation above a large annual income level (like that 1 million), to be rebated directly back to people.  Use a flat tax up to that point to fund limited government.

          The progressive tax acts as power/resentment circuit breaker, and “compost” for an organic, bottom-up economy of real supply and demand, not central, Fed based, planning and organ playing.

  • Modavations

    After Chris got off the radio,Ultrax,Jeffe,Trfx,N.J.and the rest of the “Move On”plants.,heads exploded in unison

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      LOL!!!! you such a Motivation.

    • Anonymous

      because he was an idiot.

  • nj

    Is there something wrong with Ms. Lyden? 

    Caller makes the point that calling Social Security and Medicare shouldn’t be called “entitlements.” Ms. Lyden cuts caller off, immediately refers to “entitlements,” then says nothing when panelist and next caller refers to “entitlements.”

    WTF?!

    Why have a call-in program if people’s comments aren’t taken seriously when they are making a valid point?

     

    • Modavations

      If you’re not 125% in the leftist bag,this guy complians.Mr Big Brother,Mr.Thought Police

      • TFRX

        NJ isn’t the though police.

        I know the thought police, and they refer to you as “Mr. No Probable Cause”.

        • nj

          Moda-troll is safe from the Thought Police. He operates outside their jurisdiction. 

      • Terry Tree Tree

        ???
        Was that supposed to be coherent?

    • Anonymous

      I agree, Ms. Lyden was awful and she also seemed to do her best to avoid the issues brought up by Tim Dickinson.

    • tony

      At least Tom says “our time is running short” before cut callers off. Seriously, when is Tom coming back?

  • Fjg47jr

    So Alan Simpson thinks AARP’s lobbying is “disgusting”! Where’s his righteous indignation towards Goldman Sachs, Grover Norquist, the health insurance lobby, the Keystone XL lobby, the fracking lobby, etc., etc. etc.??
    Oh, and by the way, want to save social security for all – RAISE THE EARNINGS CAP!!! Problem solved. (Thank you, Bernie Sanders for speaking truth to power.)

    • Anonymous

      Simpson, along with all the other Very Serious People involved in beltway attempts to “solve” our problems, is disgusted by the fact that people would become informed enough to know who is really on their side then organize to vote to advance their interests.  He prefers legislation by elected officials who only have to listen to their big-money backers. 

      People like him a truly afraid of true democracy.

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    We The People have now pissed away some $14 TRILLION on ourselves the past 30 years that we’ve REFUSED TO TAX OURSELVES FOR… but instead seem determined to past this cost on to our kids and grandkids. What the hell, they have no vote in this matter. It’s theft with impunity. Where’s the moral outrage?  

    What we see in a “budget neutral” approach of Paul Ryan is the Right wants to do is set this intergenerational theft in cement.

    How goddamn noble.

    • Modavations

      His stuff kicks in over 30 years.I want the sequester to start tommorrow.

  • Modavations

    Just got off the phone with Norquist..I told him you’re late.I only ministrate between 8:00and 9:00.I told him this.Resubmit the pledge,but say we acceed to tax increases ,if and only if, it is used to reduce debt.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Another of your delusions of grandeur?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    If they can’t agree for a trillion budget cuts to hell with it. The American people are tired of hearing BS for the past 10 years. if they want this country to go down the drain so be it. We all go down the drain. I am sure a lot of us will lose weight or our insanity for sure.

    Every Year this is a problem. The only day that the budget was balance when Clinton was a week away in leaving office and he gave us a budget surplus. from 2001 to 2011 THIS BUDGET BS IS STILL ANNOYING.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    The Occupy Wall Street and 99% Groups are tired. We are tired of struggling from pay check to pay check. We are tired of seeing our future down the drain, We are tired of arrogance and greed that every politicians and Wall Street executives to share their demise economics to the to the world and hiding prosperity from us.

    • Mpatterson

      I agree with your emotional sentiment, but not necessarily your logic.  What’s happening is an accumulation of thinking we were richer than we really were – and have tried to replace a manufacturing society with one built on the thin air of finance – along with a host of empty promises and rosy scenarios. 

      In the meantime “We the People” have had a vote-and-forget approach to being governed – if we bothered to vote at all, or alas, voted intelligently.  

      We are now in crunch time when the bills are coming due and the money isn’t there.  It is what we deserve for letting ourselves be duped into thinking, and acting, as if we could get a lot more out of something than we put into it – and generally, just being indifferent to the system and people that determine our fate as a nation. 

  • Modavations

    wHEN ASKED,pRES.oBAMA SAID ”I vote present”

    • TheDangerIsReal

      Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

      When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

      • Modavations

        When I was a kid,we’d call you a sissy if you wore a bicycle helmet.When we’d go skiing,there were no helmets.You guys have made your kids into “Bubble Boys”.You worry way too much about nothing.Something like vaccinations,that are actually essential,you deny your children.You swallowed the bull about mercury.When I was a kid,we’d bust thermometers and roll the mercury in our hands.We’d take 20 rolls of caps and smash them with boulders.We’d throw cherry bombs at each other.And guess what,we all survived unscathed

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ALL unscathed?  
              I, and many of my contemporaries survived many of the same, and other dangers! 
              Mad as a Hatter came about because of the danger of mercury fumes.
              Many children are far less mentally, because of lead paint. 
              Just because some people survive a situation, or substance, DOES NOT make it less dangerous!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    TAX INCREASE!!!! If you tax me more I will be getting less money from my weekly pay check and if you don’t tax me the economy will collapse or struggle.

    If they spent a lot and no tax THAT IS NOt MY GODDAMN PROBLEM. I hate tax!!!! especially if I don’t make a lot of money and feds tax me more. We will have anarchy!!!!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Believe me more tax more OWS and 99% out in the streets especially when good and services are always getting high each week and the gas prices. pay checks are still the same. 5 to 3 percent hourly Raise will not do anything for the middle class Americans.

  • Modavations

    Mr Ultrax,who even while sleeping,dreams of raising our taxes.What would you propse to do with that revenue.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I thought you were the one dreaming of raising our taxes.  From what I glean of your perspective, that is totally inevitable.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      This is the last time I’m going to address this. WE DEALT WITH THIS IN A PREVIOUS FORUM. It’s not my fault you can’t remember anything. What you’re trying to cover up is that YOU refuse to condemn Bush for sabotaging debt paydown with his irresponsible tax cuts. You gloss over them and pretend he only overspent. Sure he did, but the CBO numbers PROVE he also slashed revenue WHILE WE WERE SIX TRILLION IN DEBT. I won’t hold my breath waiting for you or ANY of the right wingers here to FINALLY address this issue… one I’ve been raising for MONTHS.

      • Modavations

        Quit stalling.I’ve told you Bush is Tranza,what do you plan to do with the revenue.I’ve asked 20 times.If you answered me I missed it.Please try again

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Let us say they came out with a Trillion budget. oh no we are not clear!!!!

    Remember Italy and Greece? Italy alone will need almost $1.4 trillion bail out money from the wishing well.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      if no money for italy that freakin’ country will also drag my 401k down to another $10,000 in just a month or before the end of the last quarter of 2011. No!!! that’s okay it will gain again. Gain what?

  • Modavations

    To all you cowards,I’ll pick you up,bring you to my office and show you my last 15yrs.taxes.You’re cowards..I challenge you,put up or shut up.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      My God Moda, what TF are you even babbling about?

      WHO CARES HOW LITTLE MONEY YOU MADE.

      • nj

        When he deludes himself that he’s typed something especially clever, Moda-troll repeats in under different topics, on different days. The topic at hand or the context is irrelevant. I remember the window sills thing from last week or so.

        Kind of funny that he’s using himself as an example of turning out “fine.” Not the impression one gets from his posts.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          I think we all knew something was seriously wrong with this Joker. His post provided the insight. I need to dust off my old DSMR and review the symptoms for lead poisoning.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I did find at a Mayo Clinic site this list for lead poisoning in adults. Obviously there are some symptoms we’d never be able to discern at a distance but some might be evident:

            Declines in mental functioning
            Memory lossMood disorders

            Moda, do you havePain, numbness or tingling of the extremitiesMuscular weaknessHeadacheAbdominal pain

    • TheDangerIsReal

      Modavations  11/18/2011 12:33 PM in reply to FAX68  

      When I was a kid, we used to knaw on the window sills.They were all lead and we all turned out just fine.I’ve been to Cebu three times.

      • Modavations

        When I was a kid, our mothers would breast feed us ,while smoking butts.When we went bicycling,we had no helmets.Look at the world,you hand wringers have created.You spend your lives looking for and creating crisis.This generation, is the first that is actually less literate ,then their parents.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          READ the post by someone accusing someone of being illiterate!

        • LeadIsPoison

          Thanks Moda for even digging yourself in deeper. You’re perhaps the most illiterate person here…

          I think you’re making the case parents should get rid of lead paint and should make them wear helmets.

          • TFRX

            If he were illiterate, he wouldn’t be posting all this junk. (We can dream…)

            But, yeah, hilarious how he keeps playing all those songs that were booed off the stage the first time and thinks it’s “Your Hit Parade”.

    • Anonymous

      Give us the address and we’ll save you the trip. 

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        You’d vist someone as crazed as Modevasions alone? Whoa!!! I think there’s more in his basement than cash and old lightbulbs, if you catch my drift!

        • JustSayin

          LOL Cash and light bulbs… and perhaps some lead to snack on.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Yum, lead is great! You can line your fallout shelter with it, and it’s a tasty treat to boot!

          • Modavations

            Our plants from Move On ,remind me of crows sitting on a telephone wire.Caw,caw,caw.Cowards one and all

          • Terry Tree Tree

            I am a LONG drive from Harvard, have responsibilities as a Volunteer Fire-Fighter, Volunteer Rescue Squad member, and others, that preclude me from spending three days to look at some tax papers that may be the ‘second set of books’! 
               If THAT makes me a coward, what makes you so brave?  Do YOU volunteer to be roused out at any time of night or day, in any weather, to risk your life for strangers?  Is THAT your definition of coward?  It seems to be the definition of SO MANY $Millionaires and $Billionaires!  THEY don’t do it!!

        • Modavations

          In front of the Harvard coop.Tommorrow,what time.Quit hiding behind your wife’s skirts.You are afterall,the guy who keeps changing his handle.

          • TFRX

            You forgot to project female gender onto various male-identified handles. Whatsa matter, are you slipping?

          • Anonymous

            Keep on posting the threats. I’ll be glad to meet you and I’ll bring the police.

          • Modavations

            What exactly was the threat?.How would you handle it.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            More unfounded assertions? But then what can we expect from someone who ONLY makes such assertions.

            As for your taxes… if you’re that bad off Moda you need prove to us you’re broke. Eat your pride and apply for Food Stamps. Don’t ask us to come to Boston to slip you a $5er.

      • Modavations

        I’ll meet you in front of the Harvard Coop,Coward.What time.I’ll bring the documents with me.Nothing worse then a “no nothing: coward assasins,who hide behind anonymity

        • Anonymous

           Look who’s calling people cowards. What you pay in taxes has nothing to do with anything.

        • Anonymous

          That’s a little off my route and I don’t want to make a special trip.  Since you so vehemently claim (behind your pseudonym) that anonymity is cowardly, why not just post them on line if it’s integral to your point?  Or are ya’ yella’?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Good Call! 

          • Modavations

            Meet me,it will take two seconds.I’ll just show the sheet that shows what I pay in taxes

        • ModaLies

          OP is a national show.

          So you want others to fly/drive all the way to Boston while you stroll from your place to the Coop? Oh ya, I remember the place. I bought my copy of the Annotated Alice there back in ’73.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Like Gregg pays his offers?
          Will you prove that you have paid a HIGHER percentage of your incomes, than the lowest and middle wage-earners?

      • Modavations

        I thought we were going to look for hungry kids.

      • Modavations

        I pay what my accountant tells me to pay,plain and simple

    • Anonymous

      Threatening people now are we. Showing your true colors for the bully that you are. Your not interested in debate or discourse only to brow beat people with your inane comments and warped right wing ideology. You now show the public that you are nothing more than a punk.

      • Modavations

        Defending my name,from guys who hide behind their womens skirts.Tell me how you would handle it

  • T2ctar

    Just a comment on a statement I often hear when refering to the current U.S. Senate.  One of your guests said that “the democrats control the senate.”  Let’s be clear under current senate rules, unless you have 60 or more votes, you do not control the senate.  A more accurate statement is that the democrats” have a slim majority in the senate.”   

    • http://twitter.com/JoanieGentian Joanie MacPhee

      Or, have the in-name-only-leadership.

    • Anonymous

      And Ben Nelson, along with several others Senators who get elected with a “D ” behind their name, are not really Democrats.  The R’s vote as a monolithic block and the D’s don’t, so there really is no true control of the Senate by D’s.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      The Senate is an inherently flawed body where about 18% of the US population gets 51% of the seats.

      There have been attempts to over these core antidemocratic defects with even more defective fig leafs. So at least with the filibuster it will give the appearance that 18% of the US population cannot rule the day.

      The Senate is irredeemable yet can never be reformed by amendment. It’s protected by poison pills in the Constitution. But there may be a way around this.

      It’s time to weight each Senate vote by the population of each state… then we can be free of such silliness as the filibuster. There may be a way to do this using Senate rules….
       
       
      http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/2010/02/reforming-anti-democratic-us-senate.html

      • Modavations

        Privatize everything possible and devolve power to the states.The Fed Govt. should protect the border,act as an impartial referee and rake off a small ‘Vig”.Like a benevolent mafia

        • ModaLies

          china is creaming us. is it because they are federalists? or is it because we’ve been listening to stupid free trade people like you for advice?

  • Leatherstocking

    Larry Summers for Benevolent Dictator!

    That’s what you guys want, right?

    Well-meaning, highly-educated Democrats with the power to go above the heads of the dumb tea-bagger part of the country?

    We’ve already tried your way.  Larry/Rubin/Geithner/Paulson/Frank etc Super Committee ALREADY ran us into the ground.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Lame attempt to present us with a false choice.

      What has run us into the ground are RIGHT WING IDEAS held by BOTH parties… from trade to deregulation of the banking and commodity sectors… and irresponsible tax cuts instead of paying down debt.  

      • Modavations

        The business of America is business.Even Pres,.Obama pushes the trade deals.Get the EPA,NLRB,Public Unions to remove the “jack boot”from our necks and America will cook.Do you consider yourself to be a communist?Classify yourself politically please.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          REQUIRE owners, CEOS, top executives,  major share-holders, and proponents, to LIVE in, and endure the worst mess they produce, and get by on the lowest wages they want to pay, and you’ve got something.

          • Modavations

            The Left calls equality making everyone equally poor.The right calls equality making everyone equally  rich

          • ModaLies

            Nice fairy tale. Have any more gramps?

        • TruthSquad

          So where’s the evidence America’s done so well after the free trade, deregulation, and the tax cuts?

          To me it looks like the US is still in a lot of hurt.

        • ModaLies

          “The business of America is business”

          is that in the constitution? really?

    • nj

      Looks like Dave has settled on a new handle. I wonder who “you guys” is. Damned if i can discern a monolith of political outlook on the forum.

      People might actually agree with Dave on some things if he weren’t such a drone, stopped over-generalizing, and backed off the Libertarian cult coding.

      • Leatherstocking

        and you’re so kind and magnanimous, you could stop taking it that way…..

        I am so close to you guys in everyday values, and whether my web-prose is rubbing the wrong way, sorry.

        If you really want to find common ground/cause for the sake of the country, you will have MUCH harder nuts to crack than me….

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Many that take often-opposing views on here, sometimes acknowledge common ground! 
              Like the religious, that ALL believe in a God, many focus ONLY on the differences!

        • TruthSquad

          That’s not a denial you’re Dave.

          So are you?

          I suspect not. All libertarians sound the same.

          But where is Dave?

    • Anonymous

      No, what I want is the money out of politics.  I want politicians to spend more time governing than fundraising.  I want a recognition that money should not equal speech.  I want politicians more beholden to their constituents, liberal and conservative alike, than to corporations and the super rich.  I want the average american to have as much access to their senators and congresspeople as high paid lobbyists.  And I want a renewed commitment to our founding values beyond the 2nd amendment, values like a secular government that “shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”, where “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States”.  I want a country where liberty and justice for all doesn’t imply “for all rich folks”, where freedom doesn’t mean the freedom to choose between feeding your family or getting needed medications.  A country that values science and reason over superstition and ideology.  Where soundbites and slogans don’t constitute a national discourse.  I am the 99% and I’m pissed off.

      • Leatherstocking

        Sounds good, and while I might agree with your values, your ends, you are only about the 45% or so.  Many don’t agree with your means, and they are pissed off too.

        You could have voted Nader, you could organize and support anyone you want, especially in this internet age.

        Anyone who keeps voting DNC and the status quo system/institutions, should not be surprised at our current situation. Obviously same goes for GOP establishment.

        With “your” demands, which would be my requests/persuasion to my fellow citizens for all I might think is good and right, the only way you will get them, is via force, or winning a civil war.

        Alot of Americans think, in our self-governance, and with regards to our liberty, the ENDS do NOT justify the MEANS.  Hard for impatient socially/environmental “responsible” people to hear and swallow, but I think true.

        You guys don’t even know what I value/think when it comes to specific issues. You are too busy fighting against your broader mischaracterization of a party or idea, that you are focussing on “libertarian”, as its the closest words to describe how I see things.

        http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz

    • Anonymous

      Oh please try using your head.

  • ClearThinking

    I paid into Medicare for 40 years as well as social security.  I understand that I will collect more than I paid in, but that’s the deal.  The US can’t squelch on its deal.  Time to look at other programs like Medicaid, arts, defense, whatever; but it’s not time to break promises.

    • Quadraticus

      You were asleep at the switch, voting for crooks who openly raided Medicare and Social Security. They might have stolen the money, but you have no one but yourself to blame for supporting a corrupt system, believing foolishly that it would provide for your health and retirement.

      Sorry if the truth hurts, but when voting demographics are on the side of the young—who *know* they will not receive anything from these programs—then Medicare and SS will be toast and you will be eating cat food and living in a cardboard box.

      The people get the government they deserve.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        The people get the government that SOME of them deserve!  Not everyone voted for those thieves, or knew that they were going to be thieves!

        • Quadraticus

          I agree: I certainly didn’t vote for any of these jokers. But as long as the people at large accept the notion of large-scale democracy, we all have to accept the consequences of that system and that means taking steps to protect one’s self from the folly of the voters and the capriciousness and malevolence of the State that results from that folly.

          I may not like the system we have, but it is what it is and so I have to organize my life in such a way that I can deal with the mess I have come to expect from it. People who put their trust in the machinations of large-scale democracy can’t legitimately cry ignorance or victimhood: they are the ones who gave us this mess by supporting a system in which this kind of corruption is possible. Just because they didn’t vote for the actual crooks doesn’t mean they are blameless, and not just because the people they *did* vote for likely would have done the same things anyway.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Now, I can agree, mostly!

          • Leatherstocking

            Are you guys in the Larry Summers for Benevolent Dictator camp?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Me?   NOT hardly!! 

        • Modavations

          No we don’t ,the gerrymander deprives us of a real vote

      • Modavations

        The 2.5 trillion s.sec.surplus was stolen.There are non negotiable IOU’s in it’s place.When they open the lock box,moths fly out

    • Modavations

      The very first lady to collect S.Sec.put in 5000.00 and took out 20,000.00.Medicare started at 1.2 billion dollars.In 1990 it was supposed to cost 12 billion.In 1990 it cost 120billion.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Bad Example!!  Of course the first to collect S. Sec. would receive more in benefits than put in.  How long did she pay before she qualified to collect?  How many OTHER insurance policies have paid off MORE than the policy-holder paid in?  How many died, and collected NOTHING?  How many collected LESS than paid in?

  • Anonymous

    It is misleading and even fraudulent to state that the Republicans on the Supercommittee showed any flexibility in accepting any new revenues. In fact, they made their proposal of $300 billion in new revenues contingent upon the continuation of the Bush tax cut, which would have removed $700 billion in revenues annually.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Our resident Orwellian Right winger, Greg, tried to portray this as the GOP making a good faith offer and the Dems turning it down.  

      • Modavations

        The deal was to lower the top rate to 25% and put the cap.gains at 25%.This broadens the tax base and was to yield about 600 bill.over ten years

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          When the Right claims it want to broaden the tax base it usually means giving the rich a bigger break at the expense of everyone else. That’s what Reagan did.

          • Modavations

            When the hearse rolled down the road,you’d think the king of the world had passed.God bless Ronaldo Magnus.When Marx died,the world shouted Hallelujah(?).

          • ModaLies

            and when Jesus died?

            is the public response when anyone dies really a standard for anything?

  • Steve

    Modavations and ulTRAX,
    are you married to eachother?

    • AlisonTravis

      I fear for the children.

    • Modavations

      3 times I tried reconciliation.SHe demands divorce

  • JustSayin

    The debt clock with some interesting buttons:  http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Its never been just numbers. It is a measure of human labor not yet worked. Indeed it represents the labor of all living Americans, and the labor of those not yet born.

    When Congress continues to waste and borrow from national checkbook they are enslaving multiple generations of American workers. Not themselves of course, they don’t work for a living…. they run the national labor camp.

    • Quadraticus

      The problem is that no regime can retain power without the consent of the people, whether implicit or explicit. The people get the government they deserve: if Congress wastes money it is only because the people allowed them to do it. The people listened to cloying words from slick politicians about getting stuff for free in exchange for their votes, and didn’t consider the unsustainability of this arrangement.

      Well, now the scheme has broken down and something needs to give: those things are empire and entitlements. It’s inevitable because there are no more suckers remaining to finance them. I know this is difficult for many of you to read, but I recommend preparing yourselves for what is to come because there is no way for the math to work out in favor of the status quo. The era of government being able to bribe voters with free stuff is over, whether you accept it or not.

      • Leatherstocking

        More Libertarian Clap Trap!  We can, and will, have our Free Lunch!

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      We’ve spent now some $14 trillion on ourselves the past 30 years and REFUSED to pay for it. We’ve learned we can pass on the bill to our kids and grandkids who have no say in the matter and do so with impunity. It is intergenerational theft. They will have to pay more in taxes and get way less in return.
       
      As we’ve seen with the Ryan budget. the GOP wants to set this theft in cement. They will NOT tolerate ANY repeal or expiration of irresponsible tax cuts that never should have been passed. Protecting the rich above all else, now THAT is sacrosanct.

      • Quadraticus

        Regardless of what one thinks of the Bush tax cuts, raising taxes on the top 1% of income earners to full confiscation—a 100% marginal rate—would only reduce the yearly deficit by about $500 billion. There’s still a $1 trillion gap there. The budget deficit is a spending problem resulting from decades of politicians of both parties trading free stuff for votes, not a revenue problem.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Thanks for posting that Orwellian Right red herring. Where did you get it? The WSJ ed page?

          Getting rid of the irresponsible Bush tax cuts would only raise the top rate back from 35% to 39.6.%. That’s a FAR cry from 100% 

          And it’s not as if the economy suffered when the top rate was 70 or 90% because the rich knew they could just accumulate their wealth instead of cashing in stocks or extracting profits where they’d have to pay taxes.
          So they reinvested.

          • Quadraticus

            My point was simply that raising rates to 100% wouldn’t solve the problem, so raising them to 39.6% clearly won’t either. Turn off your ideology for once and think about the numbers involved. I’m not interested in your Team Red/Team Blue BS.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            No one said going back the old Clinton rate ALONE would solve our problem in one year which I assume was the time frame you were referring to when you wrote:

             ”Regardless of what one thinks of the Bush tax cuts, raising taxes on the top 1% of income earners to full confiscation—a 100% marginal rate—would only reduce the yearly deficit by about $500 billion. ”  

            Stopping the hemorrhaging of revenue isn’t enough. We need to RECOUP that lost revenue from the past 10 years and I’d favor going back to 1981 ERTA rates of 50% for 10-15 years.

             
            But we also need to cut spending… and much will drop as the economy gets going, and we need to encourage economic growth to generate more revenue. But the economy is now weighted down by loony right wing ideas that such the lifeblood from the economy. We need to start reversing free trade, get Wall St away from speculation such as in the commodity markets… and back to investing in the US.

            We also have to realize that it’s there are inherent inefficiencies in the PRIVATE sector that are a drag on the economy such as the inefficient way we administer health care with thousands of individual health care pools. We need to move to Single Payer. And this will take much of the pressure off Medicare and Medicaid.

             Speaking of private sector inefficienciens, we need a more efficient way to develop new drugs. BigPharma now pisses away some $20 billion on promotion and only $38 billion on R&D, and even much of that money is wasted in reinventing wheels or creating new cash cows. It’s not much bang for the buck. There is probably no more INEFFICIENT way to create new drugs than the model we have. Then there’s defense. There’s no need to have a worldwide military presence. Why are we spending close to every other nation COMBINED?

            Think the Right would go along with any of those suggestions? OF COURSE NOT.

             

          • Modavations

            Every single account in the govt.is full of fraud ,waste and redunancy.Starighten that out,before you ask for more money.What would you do with this revenue you lust for.?.Is it for more social services?.There are 18 food programs at 62 billion dollars.I could go on all night,so please don’t ask. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            NO waste and fraud in Wall Street, dot.com bubble, housing bubble, SEC frauds, GM CEO buy-out,Halliburton No-Bid contracts, and other public sector?

          • Modavations

            George Orwell,
            The English Intellectual class is more ashamed of standing at attention during “God save the king”then stealing from a “poor box”.
                       Exchange the word Progressive with Intellectual and you’d have Orwell’s thought, if alive today

          • Anonymous

            Yawn. Boring troll.

          • Modavations

            Arn’t you the girl,who when she runs out of an intellectual argument calls me….”you shrill,vile,little man”.

          • TFRX

            Warning to all others: You will be offered tempting odds on “Moda can go a day without calling a male a female in this space for the purposes of winning an argument”. Do not take this bet.

            It’s something between him and what one can only figure is a court-appointed counselor. Don’t wage money on it not happening.

        • Alan in NH

          Aren’t you creating just such a revenue problem when you offer programs, such as the war in Iraq, without putting it on the taxpayers’ tab? How many people would have supported that war if the revenue to fund it had been collected from them instead of using the national credit card? That looks like a revenue problem to me.

          • Quadraticus

            “Revenue problem” means that it is possible to support the desired level of spending by raising taxes and without adding to the debt. That is not the case here. For example, historically revenues have never reached 24% of GDP, the current level of spending: revenues have only ever blipped up to 20% briefly despite all the changes that have occurred to the income tax code over the past 100 years.

            I agree that wars are generally wasteful, but what you are proposing is a feedback system to restrain *spending*: under your scenario revenues still would not increase, so I don’t understand how you think this is in any way a revenue problem. While I’m skeptical of the power of voters to demand spending restraint even when faced with massive tax rises, I am confident that the market will eventually correct the imbalance caused by the gap between spending and revenue.

          • Modavations

            When Cheney proposed the war,it was supposed to cost 80billion.Hillary,et al were in favor.If we’d drill in the US,we could turn our backs on the Middle East tyrants.Obama has quarenteened(?) the gulf,while China is drilling deep water wells off Cuba.60 miles from Miami.Open the gulf,get the Keystone Pipeline going(all the paper work and clearences had been granted)and 50,00 go to work tommorrow.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Go EAT and DRINK the effluent from the Deepwater Horizon, that is STILL available, over a year after BP CEO attended a horse-race, instead of his job during a disaster of his creating!
                After you and your cronies finish that meal, go to Somalia, and ALL the other places in the world that the oil industry has contaminated, and eat some more.
                ‘Clean Coal’ could provide you with many a meal, also!!

          • Modavations

            So let’s put it off on the Nigerians, where the pipeline blows up weekly, incinerating 50 people at a whack.We don’t drill Anwar(Mars looks better),because the left is worried about trampling on the migratory route of mosquitos.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Thanks for proving my point!!

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Read the actual Authorization To Use Force. Bush did NOT abide by it… and technically the war was illegal. I’m not going to bother posting everything again, and it’s off topic anyway.

          • Alan in NH

            My point was not to question the validity of the war, so much as to say that it was largely paid for on the national credit card instead of by being up front about what the costs were, and were going to be as the war developed and asking the American people for appropriate taxes to pay for it.

            I too would like us to be rid of the middle east suppliers but it was not my intention to bring that up with this post.

        • Modavations

          If we taxed the rich it yields 70billion per annum.The deficit this year is 1.5 trillion.Our friend,Mr.Big Govt.just wants money to blow on phoney baloney ,social programs.He has no intention of using the money to reduce the debt.I’ve challenged him 50 times as to what he’d do with more revenue.All I hear are crickets.

  • chris

    recall the bums. NOW!

  • Meadowshine

    Please address the root cause of failure of politicians to serve the general public. 
    1. limit campaign funding to a flat rate and transparency in where funding comes from.
    2. make it illegal for any politician to receive any funding in any roundabout way from any lobbyist.
    3. eliminate all tax loopholes from corporations esp. those that operate out of the country, but  provide actual tax benefits to those companies who manage their companies well financially, socially and environmentally.
    4. eliminate all methods, loopholes, laws,  etc.. that allow influence over congressional decisions. 
    5. enlist a cross section of real people to form committees to solve problems instead of politicians.
    6. truly re-align the economy to one that is progressive instead of “old model” which all big money and influence is tied to.
    7.  reduce the reliance on the military industrial complex as a significant part of our economy thereby reducing the wars we become involved in.
    8. the real national security issue is a population that is unable to thrive in a country that places education and health in the realm of big business instead of a making it a  provision of any progressive civilized society.

    thank you,
    Kristen Hall
    Boone , NC

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Right ON!!   Great Start!!

    • honeybunch

      Never happen…but great handle!

  • Kathleen Walsh RN

    Much of the language around the issues of social justice creates the problem here:  The ‘supercommittee’ did not fail;  for once, the Democrats did not buckle under the bullying of the right-wing.  Social Security and Medicare and other social safety nets are NOT entitlements;  they are the fabric of a functional and creative society based on principles of justice.  What the Republican Party has become would be unrecognizable to Republicans of character, of the past.  I’d like one of them to face Dwight Eisenhower, and explain their attitudes and behaviors.  I’d like Perry and naysayers like him to confront Richard Nixon [not my favorite person, but one who did some good things] and explain why he wants to ‘reshape’ or get rid of the EPA- when it was created by Nixon..a Republican.  The party has been ‘taken over’ by a group of wild-eyed radicals- fed by the nutcase ideas of such characters as Grover Norquist.  Examine the terms you use, as a public service, carefully- and adjust your presentations accordingly.  There is no ‘failure’ here;  there is an impasse.  A step in the correct direction.

    • Roy Mac

      Agree fully.  Goldwater would be drummed out of this collection of wingnut evangilists and know-nothing ignoramuses as “too moderate.”  I admire such Republicans as Howard Baker, Bush I, Nelson Rockerfeller, Everett Dirksen, and–yes–Barry Goldwater.  This current crop would have been relegated to the John Birch Society back when the GOP was a loyal opposition in the off years and an honest broker when it held power.  That all changed with Reagan:  the worst president in living memory, until Bush II came along.

      • Modavations

        The electoral gerrymander has has left us with extremes.Are you going to tell me the left is any better then the right.Perot got 19%,it’s time for a third party.Mayor Bloomberg,your time is now.

    • Alan in NH

      Well said, Kathleen. And you could add to that list of distinguished Republicans the name of T. Roosevelt who helped set up the National Park system and had some understanding about the abuse of corporate power. To principles of justice I would also add that a civilized society has both a sense of the individual as a unique being who deserves protection and opportunity and as a member of community to whom that individual owes some level of responsibility. It seems to me the current version of Republican has forgotten the second part of that dual equation.

      • Leatherstocking

        Most of the Dems/knee-jerk lefties around here would mow down anyone with an R next to their name before they bothered seeing what “kind” of Republican they were….

        Mob mentality and black and white views mixed with Utopian dreams coming together nicely….

        Buy a Prius and a tent, or else…..

        Oh, just to be clear….shiver….I’m a registered Dem…..

        • Anonymous

          Really? What’s your point? That you don’t like what people are saying.

          I could say the same for the republicans and tea party supporters.
          That they would mow people down who don’t’ agree with them.
          In fact they have said this publicly or at least have used words to this affect.

          I’m not part of any mob nor political party.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Wasn’t it Republicans, and specifically Sarah Palin’s campaign, that put Democrats in the ‘Surveyor’s Transit Sight’?  I LOOKED through a surveyor’s transit after that-NOT.  It WAS a gun-scope!! Just another lie?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Well said Kathleen, and Alan!  Those that claim to be Republicans today, have little, or no semblance to T.R., and his like!

    • Modavations

      Please explain to me what “Social Justice “means?I’ve looked in mydictionary of “leftist gobble de Gook” and there are 17 pages.

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

        If you have to ask for an explanation, then it is already lost on you. Can you explain why 2 + 2 is 4?

        • Modavations

          So Social Justice means what?I’m thick as a brick.Illumine me

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Yes, indeed you are “thick as a brick”…what else can I do but agree with you? haha

          • Anonymous

            It means the Bill of Rights for one.
            It is also the idea that gives people hope that they can have a voice.
            If you don’t see that then I feel sorry for you.

      • Anonymous

        If you have to ask your are not being honest.
        I think it’s clear to all who read this forum that you are not to be taken seriously. I’m inclined to think that you have some kind of problem or are just very immature or both. 

        • AlisonTravis

          Your intolerance for other views is frightening.

          • Modavations

            They remind of crows sitting on a telephone line.Caw,Caw,Caw.The left is not tolerant.The left is not open minded.The Left is Orwell’s “Big Brother”

          • LeadIsPoison

            Moda: “When I was a kid,we’d bust thermometers and roll the mercury in our hands.”

            Mercury and lead?

          • Anonymous

            No my tolerance for people making up stuff and posting it over and over again is what you are witnessing.

            As for other view points? Like what the republicans? Oh please, I’m done with being tolerant for their ideology when they have shown nothing but contempt for anyone who does not believe in what they do. I’m not going to sit here and read this crap and not speak up.
            Sorry I’m done with being tolerant of ignorance and thinking that we should go back to some mythical time in the past such as before we had income taxes. I’m done being tolerant of people saying and posting lies over and over again and then calling me a socialist and that I’m in cahoots with the likes of Pol Pot and Hitler. I’m done with idiots going on about Obama being a socialist when it’s clear he’s not even close to being a left wing democrat. I’m intolerant to the bigots and the slime who think it’s OK to boo the first lady and her children.
            I’m intolerant of the right wing extremist who think this is their country. I’m intolerant of wall street getting away with destroying our economy only because they have the lobbying power to control legislation.  Yeah my views of people who are on what I consider the wrong side of social justice may seem scary to you, but it’s the right wing intolerance that I’m reacting to. If you are one of them, to bad I’m done playing nice.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Well said.

          • AlisonTravis

            It’s not your country either; and I don’t agree with your ideas on anything and I don’t know anyone who does, but post away.  If posting your vitriol here is some sort of therapy for you, that’s a sad commentary on you.  Instead of wasting your time, do something to enable your vision.  You are not converting anyone here and your rhetoric is pathetic.

          • Anonymous

            Sorry it is my country as it is yours. I live here and my family has fought and bled and worked to contribute to the nation. They were, and are mostly democrats and labor folks. I’m not a democrat but I do have progressive social democratic ideas and beliefs. That is my right as an American.

            If you don’t like that or see fit to that’s your right. It’s not your right to tell me what to do or what to say. I’m not the one who told someone to shut up, you did.

            Your response is pedestrian at best and shows me that you have contempt for people who speak their mind. You seem to have contempt for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as well. If you don’t know why maybe you should read them before you respond with another nasty comment telling me about my vitriol. As to my vision, well it’s plain to see that there are plenty of like minded people who hold true to them in this nation.
            That you don’t is neither here nor there.

            I’m not here for therapy nor to convince you of anything.
            You made an inane comment and I responded. Now you write this
            garbage and tell me my rhetoric is pathetic. What is pathetic is your
            response, which is devoid of reason.

            Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our
            wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot
            alter the state of facts and evidence.
            John Adams

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Very Good!

          • Terry Tree Tree

            WHY is it not his country?  Is jeffe68 an illegal alien?  An alien posting from a foreign country?

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Use of the word “frightening” seems to be the limit of your commentary.  Come up with a new one…oh silly frightened one.

        • Markus

          Please don’t speak for others. I don’t agree with Modavations on everything, but for the most part, he takes rational positions and provides supporting data.

          • Anonymous

            You call what this guy posts rational? OK so when he posts that the nazis were socialist that’s a rational idea. I hope your answer is no.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            False.

          • ModaLies

            ROTFLMAO, how much did Moda pay you to post that!

      • ModaLies

        You said you went to college. So plow though it before bothering us just cuz you’re too lazy to read.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      I agree with all you have said, except Nison. He was the first in this line of corrupt criminals which currently make up the Congress and most of all the Republican party. He was as corrupt and sleazy as they come. Have you forgotten he was forced to RESIGN?? Read a book of history, which includes his presidency and you will learn how evil he was. Finally, while he was in office tens of thousands of our young people died for NOTHING in Vietnam. Just as they are currently doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not to mention the trillions of wasted tax dollars on all of these foreign mis-adventures.

      • Modavations

        John Corzine was from what party?

        • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

          You are off topic…Corzine was not mentioned..perhaps you dreampt it?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Please re-read her post?

        • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

          I understand her points…I do not share her view on Nixon. Whatever “good” he did was undone by the way he demeaned the office of the president, the Nation as a whole, and the thousands of dead young men and women in Vietnam. He also set the tone for the criminal Republicnas we still see in office.

          I suggest you read more of the history of his presidency, as well as that of the USA.

    • Anonymous

      Well said Kathleen Walsh, well said.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

    Every one of these Republican theives in Congress should be tried for treason. What they are doing to the Nation is the crime of the century.  And worthy of the most severe penalty. And while they are at it, hang Grover Nordquist.

    • Modavations

      You should get together with Ultrax,he wanted to “draw and quarter”  Bush.Where’s th love,bro?

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

        If you want love, adopt a shelter dog. I think HST made a comment like that. Crimes against the very existence of the Nation deserve, no DEMAND, the most severe punishment. And that would include the crimes of George Bush!

        • AlisonTravis

          Ignorance like yours is frightening. 

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Another tween on daddy’s computer? ….complete with middle school insults,you should be proud of yourself. You are a perfect example of right wing ignorance. Are you Grover Nordquist insulting others with a phony name and more lies?

          • AlisonTravis

            Don’t blame me for your inadequacies; it’s clear you have deep issues with your parents and other authority figures. 

          • Guest

            Sorry Alison, you have deep issues with reality.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            ???

          • BushsCrimes

            Ignorance of Bush’s crimes is frightening. Yet, here you are.

        • Modavations

          List the crimes please

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            As I said…what part of 2 & 2 = 4 do you not understand?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Treason is punishible by death.  Putting other interests above those of the U.S., is Treason!

        • Modavations

          Cite you treason please

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Our problems go beyond just the GOP. Their insane ideas permeate both parties.

      Here are some thoughts:

      http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/2011/10/proposal-for-occupy-wall-street.html

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

        I fully understand that both parties are equally corrupt. However, as a gay man I hold the Republican party in special contempt. Also, I am a life long registered Independent, and have never swallowed party line dogma. Thanks for the link.

        • Modavations

          Rep. are small businessmen,we don’t give a hoot about sexuality,race ,etc,.We want everyone to be wealthy,so you’ll buy our products.To quote the first of the great tax cutters JFK,A rising sea lifts all boats.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Dream on dude. In the State where I live ANYONE can be legally fired for simply being gay. Small or large businesses makes no difference. Same for renting a house or apartment.  And we can thank black hearted phony Christian Republicans for that shame.

            BTW, you need to do more thorough research. There is no proof JFK was the first to use that phrase.

          • Modavations

            Move.Are you a glutten for punishment

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            Now there is an adult response…. 

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Big Business and corporations, foreign and domestic, are the biggest recipients of the Republican give-aways!  Halliburton doesn’t qualify as a ‘small business’, any more than a lot of other Republican puppet-masters!

          • Modavations

            The culprit in Iraq was the Haliburtan subsidiary, KBR.KBR is owned by the heirs of Lady Byrd Johnson.When are we gonna go look for the hungry kids.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            The ONLY culprit?  Who gave them NO-Bid contracts?  Were they the ONLY company that could do the job, and WHY?

          • ElfmanNW

             A “rising sea lifts all boats,” sounds more like Reagan than JFK.  As I recall Reagan also talked about “trickle down.”  Well we have had 20+ years of that now and the actual result.  The top few percent pulling further and further away from everyone else, and at an increasing rate, poverty rates not seen for decades, and in Warren Buffet’s words: ‘My Class Has Won’ And ‘It’s Been A Rout’http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/15/warren-buffett-tax-code-l_n_1095833.html

          • Modavations

            Between JFK,Reagan and Clinton.40 million jobs were created.Clinton dropped the Cap.Gains taxes

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            But the so-called JFK tax cuts were pass in 1964 AFTER JFK WAS DEAD. And after that there were THREE tax hikes between then and 1969.  As I’ve REPEATEDLY demonstrated, Reagan’s tax plan failed by HIS own measure. He predicted 13 million jobs by 1986 and got about 8.5. He predicted a balanced budget and instead created almost $2 trillion in debt.  The 1997 capital gains tax cut was a small part of a small tax bill. It didn’t do squat. The internet stock mania would have occurred anyway.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            You’ve already been CORRECTED on your blatant ABUSE of that JFK quote. It had to do with JFK’s quasi-socialist belief that FEDERAL INVESTMENTS IN INFRASTRUCTURE benefited the entire nation. It’s your buddies on the Orwellian Right than bastardized it to mean give the rich enough oats and some will trickle down to the sparrows.

          • Modavations

            If JFK was alive today,he’d be a Republican He hated Communists and actually understood economics

          • TFRX

            I gotta get me one of those “Talk to the Dead” smartphone apps. I feel so left behind all the cool kids.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          I didn’t say both parties were equally corrupt… and it may not even always be outright corruption though that’s rampant.

          I’m concerned also about ideological corruption where some actually believe they’re doing the right thing even as they undermine the nation. I’d argue virtually NO ONE really believes they are doing the wrong thing… and that usually takes a lot of self-delusion.

          • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

            I never said that YOU said both parties are corrupt. This is my position, it may or may not be yours.

        • twenty-niner

          I’m an independent as well, who used to be a Republican. The ass-hat in chief – Bush II, the goofball evangelists, the megalomaniac uber flake – Grover Norquist, and the neo-con nut jobs convinced me that party of Lincoln and Roosevelt has somehow been infiltrated by non-thinkers, traitors, and loons.

          Which also describes the Democrats. They’re as equally cozy with the big banks as is the GOP, and are equally culpable for the financialization of the economy. Like the GOP, they foolishly advocated for the transition from a manufacturing to a service-based economy, which has decimated the middle class. To that end, they fully embraced globalization and destructive trade agreements, where both sides agree to gut American industry (see the link below). And they seem to have no problem with extending our military tentacles anywhere they can reach, as long as one of their own is in charge.

          The bigger problem is that both parties are rife with sycophants who concentrate way too much on showing a brave face and remaining loyal at all costs, and to hell with the country. The only way forward is through a strong third party based on common sense, fiscal discipline, and with a focused mission to return America to a country where we once again make things instead of endlessly accumulating debt to buy things made elsewhere; and where the US military is used as a defensive force and not the world police.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhwhMXOxHTg

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Try Grover Norquist for treason, also!

      • Anonymous

        I despise Grover Norquist, but he has not done anything that is in the realms of treason. Let’s try to get some rational thoughts on what this man represents and how he uses his power.

        He can be shown the door tomorrow if the GOP had the guts to do so. Alas they do not because they believe in what he is selling.
        Is it treason? I don’t think so. Is it bad for the nation? Yes.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Read the Oath of Office, please.  Pledges to ANYONE or ANYTHING, above the Oath, to the detriment of the U.S., is precluded by the Oath. 
              An oath taken, that causes harm to the U.S., or its citizens, is an oath of treason, by definition!

          • Anonymous

            That’s how you define it. I don’t nor does the congress who make the laws. I think the idea of signing a document designed by a private citizen is abhorrent, but it’s not treason. It should be illegal.
            The republican legislators who signed Norquist’ do not raise taxes document are the ones who are committing a crime in my view.
            They could have all told him to take a hike.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            AT LEAST the Republicans that signed it!!

    • AlisonTravis

      Nice rhetoric, you’ll take responsibility for the violence it incites. 

    • AlisonTravis

      They hang gay people, are you cool with that?

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Sexual persuasion, either born, or forced, is an act of Treason?  How?
            Who hangs gay people?

  • Drew You Too

    Stupor Committee. This was my initial thought when the creation of and purpose for the Committee was first announced. I stand by what my gut and reason told me from the get-go.

    GREAT comments on the board today! I am blown away by the productive and rational discussion that has been taking place. My clicky finger hurts from the like recommends I made as I read all the posts. I wish I had been able to catch the show live this morning.

    • honeybunch

      Toutie, the day there’s a productive and rational discussion on this board, we’ll help you find a new use for your clicky finger.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        You don’t thind there’s ever been any rational and productive discussion on this board?   What do YOU consider to be productive and rational discussion?
           Tootie didn’t say it was ALL rational and productive.

      • Drew You Too

        Just want to point out that there was NO sarcasm in my comment. I really did think that the discussion on this topic was substantially evolved from the norm.

  • ClearThinking

    Nobody in Washington protects the taxpayer.  They’re all about spending more money, and they’re priorities are messed up.  With less money and a mandate to balance the budget at a minimum, we’d take care of a lot of this mess.

    • Modavations

      The forefathers never intended a ruling class.We got one,now how do we get rid of them

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

        Use trials for treason and ropes for those found guilty.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Someone has hacked Modavations!!  These posts are totally contrary to his past positions!!

        • Modavations

          example please

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Some of your posts in this issue, are quite different than the positions that Modavations has taken.  He/she, has argued mostly against the Obama admin.’s actions, and supported the ‘conservative’ position, even when it isn’t conservative of anything but the wealth and power of the wealthy.
                Too many examples in past show comments, to even try to give examples!

    • AlisonTravis

      You get the votes by bringing home the bacon, the more bacon there is the more you can potentially bring back.  We’re the pigs.

  • Modavations

    The solons didn’t want their finger prints on the cuts and thus the sequester.The problem is they don’t bite till after the election and there is much time for mischief.The cuts come to 3cents on the dollar.Let’s reinstate the Bush Tax cuts and pay off that debt-deficit.We are paying 457 billion in interest,this year alone.Medicare-Medicaid is about $550 bill.The interest is eating us alive.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Re-instate the Bush Tax Cuts, and pay off the debt-deficit?  You have committed blasphemy to the great god Grover Norquist!  Will they burn you at the stake?
          You DO mean to rescind the tax cuts, don’t you?  They are already re-instated, and they are NOT paying off the debt or deficit!!

      • Modavations

        You know, all these months I’ve been talking to you,have gone in one ear and out the other.You’re just another idealogue

        • Anonymous

          Talk about the pot calling the kettle black…

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ???

        • Terry Tree Tree

          What did I miss?  The ‘W’ TAx Cuts WERE re-instated, when Congress held Un-employment Payment Extensions HOSTAGE, to get them re-instated!  The results ARE NOT paying off the debt, deficit, NOR the interest on either!
               Recinding the Tax-Cuts, is the only way to get that money, to be paid on the debt, deficit, or interest!
               Republicans have had DECADES to expose and eliminate the fraud, waste, and abuses caused by members of their own party!  With that kind of record, they would get more of the Citizenry to go after the fraud, waste, and abuses of the others!  They choose to protect their OWN fraud, waste, and abuses, and make noises about the other’s!

  • Modavations

    The gerrymander is so out of contol that during the last California election only one seat changed.Not a single incumbent lost.We need term limits and to cut the size of govt.in half.The waste fraud in Medicare-Medicaid is anywhere from 50-90billion this year.Newt was on C-span today and said it was 120billion.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Why aren’t the ‘conservatives’ exposing the individual frauds and abuses by their contributors?  They claim the ‘moral highground’!  Just because they take money from criminals, doesn’t mean they cannot do the right thing and expose the criminals, does it?
          Maybe if they actually provided some moral leadership, others would!

      • Modavations

        Listen kid,I’ve also told you I’m not poltically affiliated.My party is the “Wolverine”and we vote Perot

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Another evasion!

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Gee, Newt seems to be on every day saying the same thing just in time for you to quote him.

      Of course since we have the OFFICIAL numbers from the GAO… about $70 billion and I already posted that report, where’s Newt getting that extra 50 billion from?

      • Modavations

        Yesterday Newt saved the Rep.Party for itself.He showed most laissez faire types accept a limited Amnesty

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          TRANSLATION = Moda makes claims which he can’t back up.

          Why didn’t you just say so!

  • honeybunch

    You wanted accountability?  Grover Norquist gave you accountability.

  • Modavations

    Obama,as we speak,is sayiing if you don’t pass my bill,all the taxes will go up.Now that Ultrax,is Orwellian

    • ElfmanNW

       
      And the Republicans are saying try and
      raise taxes on the top 1% and we will force the Super Committee. And
      please not more fairy tales about “job creators.”

      • Modavations

        Put the taxes toward reducing the debt and nothing else and I think they’d change their tune.

        • TFRX

          Yeah, guess again.

          Deficits don’t matter to the GOP unless it’s a way to hobble the government with a Democrat in the White House.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          You STILL don’t understand the true agenda of the Right. They NEED massive debt as the leverage to weaken or kill Democratic programs the far Right ALWAYS opposed. They’re not about to pay debt down until they’ve accomplished their goal.   

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I bet once back in power, the GOP will again go on a spending spree for THEIR priorities and the Orwellian Right will again provide the fig leaf as they did during the Bush2 Junta, that deficits/debt doesn’t matter.  

          • Modavations

            Dude,we do it through legal channels.There is no need for subteruge.If I believe the Welfare State does far more damaged then good,I am obligated to dismantel.You guys have made a racket of poverty.The job of the Dem.is to keep the poor,poor.

  • Modavations

    If I hear that Pres.Obama is a genius,one more time,my head will explode.In my opinion,he’s thick as a brick.Steve Wynn,and many business leaders consider him the most anti-business president,ever.I’m starting to warm to Romney,as a last resort

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Explode Away!   There are still people that praise George ‘W’ Bush as a genius!  He evidently couldn’t even read a teleprompter, remember a speech, or even remember more than four words from the radio in his ear at a time!  If that is genius, mental health staff are selling the mentally disabled WAY short!

      • Modavations

        Excuse me,show me where I ever said Bush wasn’t a disaster.It wasn’t the tax cuts that offended me,it was the spending on everything else.Real Reps. are for small govt., low taxes.He was neither.I’ve said it a million times,we are enduring Affirmative Action Presidents.Bush with the “silver spoon and Obama with racial preference

        • Terry Tree Tree

          How many ‘Real Republicans’ are left on that Critically Endangered Species List?  ANY in gov’t?

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Bush sabotaged debt pay down with his irresponible tax cuts BEFORE he started to spend like a madman. Those tax cuts were JUST as respoonsible as spending for creating more debt. Yet you blame only spending.

          Are there ANY intelligent right wingers out there?

          • Modavations

            We intend to cut the govt. in half.Nothing but waste and inefficiency.A Welfare state that does far more damage then good

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Gee Moda… why don’t you condemn the the GOP for NOT being honest about this agenda? Of course the GOP knows it would be REJECTED by the People which is why they hope sabotaging of the fiscal health of government will bring it about DESPITE the will of the people.

            How goddamn noble.

    • Anonymous

      More fox news talking points. Do you not have anything original to say on anything other than the nazis were left wing?

    • Modavations

      Check the head of Home Depot,from today

    • AlisonTravis

      If he were really smart, he would get more respect.  I think he’s perceived as a pretty good salesman who had a couple good pitches, but he couldn’t close the deal.  He sees politics as a game to be won, by any means necessary, and we’re all collateral damage.

  • Modavations

    Mr Obama,please tell us why you think the economy has stalled?Can’t you even come up with a budget.What’s it been,about two years.Quit voting present and do something

    • Roy Mac

      If you don’t have anything intelligent to add, put a cork in the bottle and leave some room for those who still are thinking.

    • AlisonTravis

      I don’t think it’s got his full attention yet, but soon.

  • ElfmanNW

     
    The Super Committee was bound to fail
    once the Republicans adopted the intransigent position that the
    primary cause of the deficits over the last 20+ years, the Reagan &
    Bush income tax cuts, were off the table.  I am glad it failed,
    it just shows that unlike Obama the Democrats on the Super Committee
    were not willing to almost totally give in to the Republicans to
    achieve a “compromise.”

  • Gregg

    Of Course the super committee failed. Even if they succeeded in slowing the rate of growth by $1.2 Trillion it would have still been a failure. No one is serious.

  • Fredlinskip

    Any congressman that would lower themselves to pledge an allegiance to someone such as Grover is doing grave disservice to their country and obviously don’t possess the integrity to “lead” themselves out of a paper bag

  • Hanson

    Part 2 of 2

    Still, the 9/11 Commission did brilliantly, answering all of the questions the public had (except most of the victims’ family members’ questions) and pinned blame on all the people responsible (although no one so much as lost their job), determining the attacks were “a failure of imagination” because “I don’t think anyone could envision flying airplanes into buildings ” except the Pentagon and FEMA and NORAD and the NRO. The DIA destroyed 2.5 TB of data on Able Danger, but that’s OK because it probably wasn’t important. The SEC destroyed their records on the investigation into the insider trading before the attacks, but that’s OK because destroying the records of the largest investigation in SEC history is just part of routine record keeping. NIST has classified the data that they used for their model of WTC7′s collapse, but that’s OK because knowing how they made their model of that collapse would “jeopardize public safety“. The FBI has argued that all material related to their investigation of 9/11 should be kept secret from the public, but that’s OK because the FBI probably has nothing to hide. Osama Bin Laden lived in a cave fortress in the hills of Afghanistan, but somehow got away. Then he was hiding out in Tora Bora but somehow got away. Then he lived in Abottabad for years, taunting the most comprehensive intelligence dragnet employing the most sophisticated technology in the history of the world for 10 years, releasing video after video with complete impunity (and getting younger and younger as he did so), before finally being found in a daring SEAL team raid which wasn’t recorded on video, in which he didn’t resist or use his wife as a human shield, and in which these crack special forces operatives panicked and killed this unarmed man, supposedly the best source of intelligence about those dastardly terrorists on the planet. Then they dumped his body in the ocean before telling anyone about it. Then a couple dozen of that team’s members died in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan. This is the story of 9/11, brought to you by the media which told you the hard truths about JFK and incubator babies and mobile production facilities and the rescue of Jessica Lynch. If you have any questions about this story…you are a batshit, paranoid, tinfoil, dog-abusing baby-hater and will be reviled by everyone. If you love your country and/or freedom, happiness, rainbows, rock and roll, puppy dogs, apple pie and your grandma, you will never ever express doubts about any part of this story to anyone. Ever. This has been a public service announcement by: the Friends of the FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, SEC, MSM, White House, NIST, and the 9/11 Commission. Because Ignorance is Strength. show more

    • Modavations

      DoubleLoon

      • Anonymous

        For once I agree with you.

        • YourUselessIntellect

          No respect – as ignorant and as unable to critically think or reason as the other useless trolls on this site.

          There are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, and the third is useless.

          – Niccolò Machiavelli (“The Prince”, ch. 22)

          • Modavations

            Machiavelli was cognizant of the Troll.Who knew

    • Terry Tree Tree

      The TRUTH hurts!!  With ALL this, and MORE, how can anyone believe there could have been a conspiracy by the ‘W’ admin?
          These are the information that was released by the media, and the ‘W’ admin..  How could anyone see anything wrong in this?

  • Hanson

    What a great post by GoughLewis

    Part 1 of 2

    On the morning of September 11, 2001, 19 men armed with boxcutters directed by a man on dialysis in a cave fortress halfway around the world using a satellite phone and a laptop directed the most sophisticated penetration of the most heavily-defended airspace in the world, overpowering the passengers and the military combat-trained pilots on 4 commercial aircraft before flying those planes wildly off course for over an hour without being molested by a single fighter interceptor.These 19 hijackers, devout religious fundamentalists who liked to drink alcohol, snort cocaine, and live with pink-haired strippers, managed to knock down 3 buildings with 2 planes in New York, while in Washington a pilot who couldn’t handle a single engine Cessna was able to fly a 757 in an 8,000 foot descending 270 degree corskscrew turn to come exactly level with the ground, hitting the Pentagon in the budget analyst office where DoD staffers were working on the mystery of the 2.3 trillion dollars that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had announced “missing” from the Pentagon’s coffers in a press conference the day before, on September 10, 2001.Luckily, the news anchors knew who did it within minutes, the pundits knew within hours, the Administration knew within the day, and the evidence literally fell into the FBI’s lap. But for some reason a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists demanded an investigation into the greatest attack on American soil in history. The investigation was delayed, underfunded, set up to fail, a conflict of interest and a cover up from start to finish. It was based on testimony extracted through torture, the records of which were destroyed. It failed to mention the existence of WTC7, Able Danger, Ptech, Sibel Edmonds, OBL and the CIA, and the drills of hijacked aircraft being flown into buildings that were being simulated at the precise same time that those events were actually happening. It was lied to by the Pentagon, the CIA, the Bush Administration and as for Bush and Cheney…well, no one knows what they told it because they testified in secret, off the record, not under oath and behind closed doors. It didn’t bother to look at who funded the attacks because that question is of “little practical significance“.

    • Modavations

      Loon!!!!!

  • Lynn

    Okay, what’s up, On Point??  Where’s Tom?  Can you post something on the blog that let’s us know that he’s okay and coming back??
    Thanks!
    Lynn

    • Hanson

      Tom Ashbrook just had a (joint) surgery.  He is fine.  He will be back in two weeks.

      As, Greater Boston 9/11 Truth Meeting (3 of them), we all miss him and wish him a quick recovery.

      Thanks for thinking of him.

      • FreeYourMinds

        Hanson –

        What happened to your excellent summaries, Part l and Part ll? 

        They happened to be the most incisive synopsis I’ve read. 

        Thank you for posting them and shame on the ignorant and  unconstitutional behavior of the people who requested them to be removed.

        Please post them again on another occasion and keep speaking the ‘Truth’ to fascism.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          I AGREE, and MISS them.  I saw NOTHING in them that violates the terms, that I am aware of, therefore CENSORSHIP, biased, is the only conclusion available!

  • Modavations

    Mr Ultrax,
         A few tuesdays ago,the state of Washington rejected their ballot question, to raise taxes on the rich.Why do you think that was.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Who the hell cares Moda. States have to balance their budgets, the Fed does not. And I don’t even find such a referendum question on the WA ballot.
       
      http://wei.secstate.wa.gov/osos/en/PreviousElections/2011/general/Pages/OVG_20111108.aspx?ElectionID=42&sorttype=Measures#ososTop
       

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        Moda present the same question several times in several forums. Does he even comment now when we find there was NO such ballot question in WA state?

        No, he’s off starting new threads… and dollars to donuts, he’ll again raise this question in the future just has he continues to abuse the JFK “rising tide” quote which I proved was NOT about tax cuts for the rich.    

  • markie

    What’s worse? Jacki Lyden voice or nails on a chalkboard??

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Actually Susan Stamberg drives me nuts. She has this obnoxious way of expressing impatience with guests… ya ya, get on with it. It’s to the point I don’t even want to hear her voice.

      I’m guilty of voiceism!

  • thehme

    excuse me, but I am still waiting to the answer to the last question made by the young man who called in. Is the government borrowing against entitlement savings? If yes, why? That money should be there regardless. Why did you not answer the question?!

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      The money is loaned to the general fund in exchange for special government bonds making up the IOUs in the “trust funds”. This money will need to get paid back to Social Security when SS taxes fall below Boomer outlays.

      Problem is we should have paid down debt when we had a chance back in 2001 to be ready for this extra expense around 2020. In fact Bush RAN on paying down debt to strengthen SS… tax cuts were secondary.

      So if Bush created MORE debt, he knew he was WEAKENING SS.

      The Rightists here refuse to recognize that Bush was shafting them too. it’s the typical GOP MO… break things then claim they have the only solution.   

  • Modavations

    The Bush Tax Cut;;;;
    33% of the tax cut went to the poorest.The rate dropped from 15% to 10%With the EIC,6million or 11% were allowed to pay niente.The richest had their rates drop from 39%ish to 35%,for a drop of around 6%.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      And since we were then SIX TRILLION in debt…. and since Bush ran on PAYING DOWN DEBT…. how was ANY of that tax cut fiscally responsible?

      You complain that the Dems buy votes with tax and spend. It seems the GOP buys votes with money STOLEN FROM OUR KIDS.

      Gee, which is more irresponsible?  

  • Modavations

    Hey guys,I’m off,see you Monday.Have a Happy Thanksgiving.My favorite of all the holidays!!!

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Good riddens. Don’t let the door hit ya….

      Maybe business will finally pick up and you won’t have to hold your hat out here trying to prove how poor you are. After all, that’s what Thanksgiving is all about! Just remember, there’s always Food Stamps!

      • AlisonTravis

        Wow, you really are an a-wipe, but don’t take it personally.

        • Anonymous

          The Greek chorus has spoken. 

        • Terry Tree Tree

          NOT personal?  How?
              They have had months of barbs that I know of!

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          I would NEVER make fun a poor person. However I would make fun of a moron who’s here every day disrupting threads, making empty claims he never backs up, looking down his nose at everyone for not having gone to the best colleges, and claiming to be rich and if we don’t believe him, he demands we meet him in Boston so he can show us the last 15 years of his tax forms.

          NOW, do you understand?

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            FURTHERMORE, despite his being an idiot, I TRIED to help him protect his personal reputation and his business by warning him it was NOT a good idea to use his business name in a public forum or NOT to announce to the world he had considerable sums of money in his basement. What thanks did I get? He talked to his lawyer to see if he could sue me.  

          • Terry Tree Tree

            I also urged caution about his statements about money in the house!   My Volunteer Fire Department has been burglarized for items that the low-life got FAR LESS money for!  Cost us a LOT more, and put lives at risk, though!

          • Modavations

            Terry, I guess we’re from different worlds.To me,$5000.00 is chump change.I do,however,believe you would warn me,out of the goodness of you’re heart.Mr.Ultrax,however,is hardly being honest.I’ve never seen anyone with such pent up hate.I can take it,I’m used to him.How he could treat total strangers with such emnity,however,is beyond the pale.Our mother’s raised us differently,I guess.Seriously though,thanks for watching me back.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            As I said, no good deed goes unpunished. I warn Moda he’s a fool to use personally identifiable info here… and brag about cash in his basement… and yet I’m doing it out of… hate? Moda, you’re just bringing to this discussion the same intellectual dishonesty you bring to ALL your discussions. Here’s my bottom line. I dislike willful ignorance and those who have disdain for facts yet come here day after day thinking their idiocy was handed down on a slab. You’re simply incapable of carrying on an intelligent discussion and that frustrates me to no end. Sorry I let that show as much as I do.

          • Modavations

            You prevaricate,in all that you say.The problem with your diatribe,is you’ve made yourself the judge.The other charges are again, subjective!!!!Ignorance.That’s ignorance in your eye.Hopefully,only in you eye.Finally,your hysteria results from having to question your world view.When you hang exclusively with Fellow Travelers”there never is occassion for self examination.You’re all on the same page.Ultraxis petrified by the cracks he’s seeing in his foundations.

          • Gregg

            You nailed it.

          • TruthSquad2

            Come on Greg, you know Moda made no sense. Don’t encourage him.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Gee Moda, you must have given that post much thought because unlike your regular spew, it concentrates your bizarre thought processes into one nugget of pure psychobabble. You should  stay away from both politics AND psychology. Gregg can pretend it’s deep and devastating, but then he’s so desperate for allies he’ll even nose up to the local Village Idiot. Oh, perhaps THAT’S what you mean by prevarication and ignorance… that I don’t realize there’s no actual village here. OK, on that I’ll plead guilty. Happy now Sigmund?   

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Moda, the low-life types that have repeatedly stolen, and destroyed thousands , or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Fire-Fighting Equipment from the Volunteer Fire Department, that most likely would be the ones to try to save them, to sell for less than pennies on the dollar, for their drug addiction, probably aren’t far from you too!  The $Millionaires here take your attitude, also.   
                 When people have been murdered for less than $50.00, your laisee-faire attitude about $5,000, worries me.  Evidently it worries ulTRAX too, or he wouldn’t have risked charges of stalking and other crimes to warn you!  He would have just let it happen!

          • Modavations

            Mr Ultrax,I’ve had an epiphany.Even though you bully perfect strangers with whom you disgree and even though you loath me to the degree you’d run me over,given the chance.You benevolently took it upon yourself to find out who I was,to warn me.I’m chastened and touched..Listen stalker,you know my phone #.Call the office and I’ll send the part of my tax returns, that show taxes paid,.What will you do when you see that I pay more in taxes, then you make for a wage.

          • TruthSquad2

            There he goes again. More obnoxious bragging how rich he is.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Oh now I get it. After reading more of your posts I find you’re a right winger. Now your defense of our Village Idiot makes more sense.

          • Gregg

            I read it as an observation not as a defense. Modavations doesn’t need defending.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            No, Moda needs psychiatric help… and from his childhood stories, he also needs lead and mercury detox.  

          • Modavations

            Do you think right wingers should be allowed to post on NPR?If you preach solely to the left,are you not just holding hands.If you talk exclusively, amongst the fellow travelers,are you learning anything?.While my lawyer said you’ve done absolutely nothing actionable,he said keep a log.We are.Happy Thanks Giving ,excuse me, Happy Fall Leaf Day.I don’t want to offend

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Sure both intelligent conservatives and braindead dittoheads have a right to post. What they do NOT have is the right to, with impunity, post unsubstantiated claims, refuse to ever post credible sources, and refuse to acknowledge info from credible sources. At that point they DESERVE all the ridicule they get because the facts already didn’t work.
             
            BTW Moda, you may be an idiot, but your OUR Village Idiot and we love you because of your priceless gift of making the Right look even more ludicrous and insane. We don’t even have to post rebuttals. You make our case for us!

            For that, Happy Thanksgiving.

          • Anonymous

            I disagree. If the First Amendment allows us the freedom of speech, and posting on this forum is a form of that, then it stands to reason that he can post anything he wants as long as it does not cross the line of hateful or damaging speech. You also have the right to respond and to voice disdain and disgust over the content of his posts and anyone else. That seems to be the crux of what makes freedom of speech what it is, free. I think people should be responsible in this regard as I think freedom comes with responsibilities as well as rights.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Please read my post again J. You obviously missed something.

          • Guest

            you mean the part where you said everyone had a right to post but they had no right to invent facts and not be questioned?

            i got it, why didn’t jeffe68?

            you guys don’t seem to be friends any more.

          • Gregg

            Ask ulTRAX how he invented his own algorithm, represented it as OMB numbers, created his own “facts” and then lied when called on it. Really, ask him.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            If you can’t make a point without lies and distortions, you really haven’t made a point, have you Spanky? I cite my sources so anyone can verify them. The extra number was clearly NOT from the CBO and I said it was a projection.

            If you think you’re most devestating rebuttals to my arguments are evasion and such pathetic sniping… you might as well just hang it up Greggy.  

          • Gregg

            No you didn’t. That’s what I meant by, “and then lied when called on it”.

          • TruthSquad2

            Is this the best you have Greg? You’re evasions are so numerous and the excuses for them increasingly lame, and now your jumping on whether Libs dot their “i”s.

            It looks like we’re witnessing your total collapse and the only one who doesn’t know it is you.

          • Gregg

            I just think if one is going to make a fantasy projection based on an algorithm no economist uses then they should not misrepresent them as OMB numbers. That’s all.

          • TruthSquad2

            Jesus, Greg… s-u-b-t-r-a-c-t-i-o-n is not a mystery algorithm.

            Face it, the Bush tax cuts cut revenue. You’ve said this was necessary for X, Y, and Z reasons.

            So why is simply showing one way of how much revenue was cut a problem for you?  

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            TS wrote: “s-u-b-t-r-a-c-t-i-o-n is not a mystery algorithm.”

            ROTF, It’s amusing Greggy can find flaws in a simple presentation that show the Bush tax cuts did what they were intended to do… clut revenue. Yet he finds NO flaws in Orwellian arguments where the Right claims that reduced revenues = a revenue boom.

            His parents should get a refund for whatever schools he attended.

          • TruthSquad2

            Algorithm? If you’re talking about Trax’s revenue post, it’s

            called

            s-u-b-t-r-a-c-t-i-o-n.

            You might better remember such simple math as “take aways”

            Start with Clinton’s best revenue year, take away Bush’s revenues, and see how much Bush fell short.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Actually I don’t believe the 1st even applies here any more than it does in the workplace or a shopping mall. Technically this site is private property.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            They’ve been doing that for months!

          • AlisonTravis

            That must make you the village’s f-wad.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Wow, such an imaginative vocabulary!  I’ll bet you can come up with at least two more!

          • Gregg

            TerryTreeTree, Look at the nastiness in ulTRAX’s reply to Modavations gesture of good will. And look at how many “liked” it. These are your people and I know you are a good guy so I will continue to remind you. As for Alison, it’s bad form I suppose but ulTRAX had it coming. Even after he realized the embarrassment of his gratuitous nasty, notice how he can’t help being a jerk with his holiday wishes.  

            Keep up the good work TTT and Happy Thanksgiving.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            As many times in the past, I was pointing out the un-imaginitive name-calling.   ulTRAX has heard from me like that, as has Modavations!  I try to point it out to new arrivals, so they can be more civil, or at least more imaginitive!
                I realized a long time ago, that without the Sun, the Earth would be devoid of life as we know it.  Without the Earth, we would NOT be here, in this form.  NO Nation, Religion, Culture, Race, Ethnicity, or other group holds ALL the ANSWERS, to ALL the questions and problems that have, do, and CAN face us!  Those that CANNOT SEE that we ALL need the best of each other, cause the MAJORITY of the man-made problems, and some of the ‘natural’  problems!
                  THAT’S  a form of HYPOCRACY, that needs to be exposed to the other residents of our little space-ship!

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Thanks Gregg for even ANOTHER display of your blatant hypocrisy… not that we expected anything less. 

            You condemn me for rejecting Moda’s Thanksgiving post, yet you are utterly SILENT about my earlier attempt at good will towards someone I have absolute contempt for.

            I TRIED to help Moda protect his personal reputation and his business by warning him it was NOT a good idea to use his business name in a public forum or NOT to announce to the world he had considerable sums of money in his basement. What thanks did I get? He talked to his lawyer to see if he could sue me.

            Where’s YOUR condemnation of Moda’s rejecting MY effort at REAL WORLD goodwill?
             
            Crickets.

          • Gregg

            Stalker.

          • TruthSquad2

            A real double standard there Greg. Either you’re for displays of good will or your not. It’s not as if your bunkies are capable of it.

          • Gregg

            That’s funny!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Happy Thanksgiving!  To you and all! 

  • Guest

    Nearly half of the $1.3 trillion deficit is the result of $600 billion tax cuts for the wealthy — the so-called Bush tax cuts.  The rest of the deficit is the result of spending over $600 billion (and still counting) on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  If we let those temporary tax cuts lapse (otherwise known on the right as “raising taxes”) and end the wars and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan, a good part of the deficit issue is resolved.  

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      “Nearly half of the $1.3 trillion deficit is the result of $600 billion tax cuts for the wealthy — the so-called Bush tax cuts.”

      Gee, I’ve never heard that high a number for a single year. Source please.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      More like 2 trillion on wars….

  • doots

    when the leadership of each paarty picks the respective super committee, should there be any surprise nothing was achieved? let the republican leaders select a limited pool of potential democrat members to the supercommittee. then the demo leaders choose 6 for the committee. Same process for the GOP members. Wouldn’t this get more moderate representatives andresult in a much better chance to get some cooperation andsome kind of agreement to present to the rest of the congress and country?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Which Republicans would YOU choose to this committee?  Which side do you claim to be from?

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    SO WHERE’S THAT CONSERVATIVE NIRVANA????

    These past 30 years the rich, corporations, and Wall St. got just about EVERYTHING they wanted… tax cuts for the filthy rich, big reductions on capital gains taxes, the destruction of unions, free trade deal to exploit cheap and slave labor overseas, corporate welfare, two wars they refused to pay for, deregulation of banks, mass media, and commodities. They sabotaged government revenue with irresponsible tax cuts and sabotaged the industrial base of America with free trade. Their privatization efforts in Iraq milked taxpayers for $100k+ a year contractor jobs that our military should have been doing for a fifth that. They encouraged us to place our life savings in the hands of sociopathic predators on Wall Street whose greed and hubris was so great they didn’t just bring down their own banks, they brought down our entire economy… almost the world’s.

    ALL THE EVIDENCE IS NOW IN, and it’s these conservative/neo-liberal policies have proven to be a DISASTER. At least some neo-libs like Clinton got us to a balanced budget, which Bush sabotaged to prevent debt paydown, now have some regrets about free trade and deregulation. Do you ever hear ANY regrets from the far Right or the crazed Tea Baggers for supporting policies that brought the economy down?

    Above was just the beginning of their proposed insanity. The Tea Party sociopaths in Congress are demanding policies even MORE insane than the above. Grover Norquist on 60 Minutes last Sunday went on record his goal is to shrink the federal government down to about 8% of GDP. That means the elimination of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and just about all of the social safety net plus those regulatory agencies that protect us from the more malignant aspects of capitalism. Quite literally it’s the rolling back of the 20th Century.

    The Right has shown they are willing to become fiscal terrorists threatening to blow up the system if they are not allowed to do even MORE damage. They are blind to the fact that they have gotten most of what they wanted these past 30 years and there’s still no Conservative Nirvana. They blame their failures on not being extreme enough. And these lunatics are say they can be trusted to fix our system??

    If anyone should be reforming our system, it’s those whose instincts were sound in OPPOSING all of the above insanity… people on the LEFT.

    • Gregg

      Not that same tired nirvana post again! Other that comedic relief, what good is it?

      Nice bold.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        As Greg’s level of support for GOP candidates is in direct proportion to how nutty or crazed they are, Greg’s evasion of a post or need to disrupt a thread, is in direct proportion to how much it gets to issues he is desperate to avoid.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        So Greggy, shall I go back to see if you EVER addressed the points I made?

        • Gregg

          I’m not going to address such garbage. Make of it what you will.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            We KNOW what to make of it Gregg… the ideas YOU supported created a DISASTER…. and you, like all True Believer Right wingers, can’t accept your perfect ideology failed so dramatically… so you divert attention away from YOUR failure.  So much for hoping the disaster of the Bush Junta years would prove to be a “teachable moment” for the braindead dittoheads such as yourself. You lack all integrity to confront the moral and intellectual bankrupcy of your own beliefs, you’ve got your scapegoats to blame, and you’re all set to do it all over again.  

          • Gregg

            I can’t wait for 2012.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Gregg again deludes himself that threatening topics evaded enough times eventually will disappear. Sorry Greggy, that was the boogyman under your bed. It’s time to deal with reality.

            Up to it?

            Didn’t think so.   

      • Terry Tree Tree

        As good as your word about paying!  FAR BETTER, actually!

      • Guest

        If Ultrax has posted that before, why don’t you have a standard rebuttal you can post? Posting nothing does make it look like you’re incapable of an intelligent response.

        • Gregg

          That’s not the way I roll. I’m happy to let ulTRAX’ words stand on their own. Rebutting this tired post (again) gives credit to the premises. If anyone accepts these premi (made up that word) as stated then they are too far gone for me to bother with anyway. I guess what I’m saying is, with all due respect, if you expect an intelligent response then you have bought the premise. 

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Pray tell Greggy… have you EVER tried to rebut what is really a valid question: if your right wing ideas are so inherently desirable for the economy, for government, the People, and the world, why when you’ve gotten most of what you want, is the US in such bad shape?

            The truth is you EVADE this question because instinctively you know it places in the spotlight your own delusions of infallibility you refuse to rethink over all the evidence of the Right’s moral and intellectual bankrupcy. YOU may deserve the dystopian world the far Right is trying to make but the rest of us don’t.

          • Gregg

            Make of it what you will.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Still have not found one attempt on Greg’s part to actually rebut any of the above argument. But I have found plenty of attempts to EVADE or deflect discussion away from the above.

            No doubt that, in Greg’s mind, is a rebuttal.

          • FlagThisFlagBoy

            You mean – that’s not the way you troll…

            Were you born premi-tured?

  • twenty-niner

    Americans aren’t necessarily divided as the main-stream press makes out. A recent Rasmussen survey shows 60% of Americans oppose financial bailouts:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/federal_bailout/october_2011/60_oppose_financial_bailouts_74_say_wall_street_benefited_most

    Here’s the final vote on TARP:

    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll681.xml

    Take note if your Congressman voted for this piece of garbage, and send him a ticket home in 2012.

    And please don’t come back with the hackneyed too-big-to-fail three-card-monty bankster blather; because while, yes, the institutions were likely too big to fail, the shareholders were most definitely not too big to fail. GM was taken into bankruptcy, the shareholders were wiped out, and the company was promptly resurrected; and consumers happily continued buying cars throughout the whole mess. The banks could have been taken through the same process, with culpable parties taken massive haircuts along the way.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      In Europe the banks are taking the hit. In the US the banks, who created the mess, get bailed out by the taxpayers..and NOBODY is punished. Another crime of the century. And the CEOs reward themselves with tens of millions in bonuses….such an outrage.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Better watch out with any use of bold print.

      The Text Taliban are sure to chastize you.

  • twenty-niner

    This committee is just a side show. The real plan is default, but not a hard default where the treasury stops making bond payments but a soft default where the Fed simply keeps monetizing debt and devaluing the currency. They all but flat out announced QE3 today, and if the market ever started to believe that QE3 was not baked in the cake, it would tank in cosmic fashion.

  • Hidan
  • Terry Tree Tree

    SUPER-FAILURE!!  It is NOT compromise, if I HAVE to give in to your demands, and you give NOTHING, or effectively nothing, in return!  
        The rich are fighting having to pay their fair share, with $BILLIONS, that could go to improving the infrastructure and jobs for them and us!!

  • Anonymous

    As a matter of personal conviction, and without pretending to discuss the details or formulate the system, I feel that we shall ultimately have to consider the adoption of some such scheme as that of a progressive tax on all fortunes, beyond a certain amount, either given in life or devised or bequeathed upon death to any individual – a tax so framed as to put it out of the power of the owner of one of these enormous fortunes to hand on more than a certain amount to any one individual; the tax of course, to be imposed by the national and not
    the state government. Such taxation should, of course, be aimed merely at the inheritance or transmission in their entirety of those fortunes swollen beyond all healthy limits.
    – Theodore Roosevelt, speech, (April 15, 1906)

    • pete

      In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are
      too high today and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to
      raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now. The
      experience of a number of European countries and Japan have borne this
      out. This country’s own experience with tax reduction in 1954 has borne
      this out. And the reason is that only full employment can balance the
      budget, and tax reduction can pave the way to that employment. The
      purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to
      achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget
      surplus.

      -John F Kennedy, speech, (December 14, 1962)
       

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        The Right loves this quote because they can bastardize it to mean JFK was in favor of cutting tax rates beyond what he thought was responsible. The eventual so-called JFK tax cuts STOPPED at a 70% top rate.

        If you’re so in favor of the JFK tax rates… LET’S BRING THEM BACK!!!!

         

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          I should add that despite the Orwellian Right’s propaganda claiming a revenue boom from these tax cuts, it’s NOT apparent in the revenue numbers because

          1: there were three tax HIKES between 64 and 69…

          2: that period had been dubbed a wartime economic expansion by NBER.

          3: We can throw in other factors like inflation and population growth…

          But you should get the drift there’s just no clear evidence of a revenue boom. I posted the numbers in a previous forum.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        JFK: “only full employment can balance the  budget, and tax reduction can pave the way to that employment.”

        Nice sentiment. But JFK probably never suspected there’d be a Tax Cut Cult in the US that wants to SABOTAGE government programs.

        If taxes are TOO LOW, all the economic growth in the world won’t create a balanced budget. We learned that from the BUSH2 years where even in his BEST revenue year… he was about $350 billion in the hole.

        • Modavations

          If Ultrax could get to JFK,he’d call him an a–hole,too.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Only an Orwellian Right winger such as yourself would claim JFK, who clealy wanted a highly PROGRESSIVE top income tax rate, would approve of the Right’s attempts to continue to drop that rate from 70% to 50% to 28% to 25%… no, make that 9% under Cain’s 999 plan.

             

          • Modavations

            JFK couldn’t have cared less about tax rates.Why you ask/Because JFK knew a “rising sea lifts all boats”

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Here’s a perfect example of why you deserve NO respect.

            I’ve corrected you perhaps 4-5 times already that JFK was  NOT talking about tax cuts for the rich with his “rising tide” remark. He was defending federal INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING so no area of the nation went underdeveloped.

          • pete

            You can speculate until the cows come home about what Kennedy would have thought about any particular tax rate, but of course all it would be is speculation.

            I’d recommend reading what Kennedy actually said to understand his thoughts about taxation: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkeconomicclubaddress.html

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I really don’t care about what JFK said. What’s more relevant is how the Orwellian Right is bastardizing what JFK said… and WHERE’S THE PROOF IT WORKED? We have two more recent examples… Reagan and Bush2… and both were disasters. We know revenues fell dramatically. As for economic growth, we have to know it happens without changes in the tax code. So how do we pick out the “supply side” signal from normal economic growth, drops in oil prices, or the KEYNESIAN effects of massive deficit spending by both Reagan and Bush?

            Again, if the supply siders could make an HONEST case for supply side tax cuts, they would not have to resort to DISHONEST use of stats.

          • pete

            I’m not sure how you could know that the right is bastardizing what JFK said if you don’t know what JFK said.

          • Gregg

            Game, Set, Match.

        • pete

           

          What government revenue is spent on is a completely
          different issue than the question of what is the fairest and most effective way
          to collect  money to support
          spending. The idea Kennedy outlined in his speech was that confiscatory rates
          on businesses and the wealthy actually suppresses spending and investment,
          which contracts the economy and ultimately brings in LESS government
          revenue.  Whether your position is
          that you want a large government which spends more than it has on  lots of ineffective programs or you want
          a lean government that provides the basics (what you would call a “sabotage of
          government”) you should support having 
          low rates on corporations and individuals (or at least not encourage
          raising the rates) because that is the most effective way to expand
          productivity and bring in larger amounts of government revenue.  Obviously, there is a point where the
          rates become too low and no longer generate enough but I don’t think we’re
          close to that percentage yet.

           

           

          In terms of fairness you are right, the tax code is
          completely unfair at the moment, the top 10% pay almost 70% of the tax burden
          while the bottom 50 % pay somewhere around 20%. Actual fairness would call for
          equal treatment under the law and mean that every one would pay the same rate. But
          of course when people talk about individuals paying their “fair share” they
          aren’t actually talking about fairness at all.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Pete wrote: “The idea Kennedy outlined in his speech was that confiscatory rates on businesses and the wealthy actually suppresses spending and investment, which contracts the economy and ultimately brings in LESS government revenue.”

             Let’s be clear, under the so-called JFK tax cuts the top rate was 70%. Right wingers today complain that HALF that is confiscatory. Cain wants to bring that down to 9%. The JFK quote can be easily hijacked by those who to claim JFK would have wanted tax cuts forever.

            As for increased revenues, show them to me. I’ve looked at the CBO numbers and of the tax HIKES that followed. I find no tax cut revenue boom signal in the noise. But I find a lot of Orwellian Right sites claiming one… but they are counting revenue from those tax HIKES. If they could make their case honestly, they would have.

              

            As for who pays what percentage of the tax burden, it’s a bogus stat for several reasons. If there’s an across the board tax cut that takes some off the tax rolls, and Bush bragged about removing 5 million people… then OF COURSE those who remain will pay a larger percentage of the remaining tax pie… even if they pay LESS in absolute dollars. And since these tax cuts INCREASE the deficit, more interesting would be who’s paying what percentage of the EXPENDITURE pie. Then we’d see our creditors are. Lastly, another way the rich can pay more of the tax pie is if they capture more of the wealth pie… so they CAN pay more in absolute dollars even under lower rates.

          • pete

             “it’s a bogus stat for several reasons.”

            It’s actually as straightforward and simple a measure as one can have. The rich pay more as a percentage and in real dollars, of the tax burden, period. This was true even before the Bush tax cuts.  The people who were dropped off the roles through the Bush tax cuts would only be a further example of this fact not an argument against it (unless of course, you’re using one of those progressive calculators). The percentage measured is of all income earners not just those who end up paying taxes .

            “Lastly, another way the rich can pay more of the tax pie is if they capture more of the wealth pie… so they CAN pay more in absolute dollars even under lower rates.”

            Yes, this is exactly the point. An expanding economy brings in more dollars to the government a contracting economy brings in less. If you want to contract the economy more, start raising taxes. Lower rates mean people earn more, spend more, invest more and shelter less.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            You seem determined to be oblivious to the obvious. An expanding economy CAN bring in more revenue… but NOT if tax rates are so low as not to capture that revenue. Forget deficits, and just look at revenues after the SIX ROUNDS of Bush tax cuts. In constant dollars over TEN YEARS, revenues were BELOW Clinton’s last year for EIGHT of those ten years… and even in those two years, the total was about $125 billion or so.
             

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Hoping to be taken seriously Pete wrote: “Actual fairness would call for equal treatment under the law and mean that every one would pay the same rate. But of course when people talk about individuals paying their “fair share” they aren’t actually talking about fairness at all.”

            If you were going to even venture an opinion on taxation, it would have been preferable to give it more thought instead of regurgitating right wing talking points.

            What is a killer idea worth in an impoverished 3ed or 4th world nation without the necessary infrastructure to exploit that idea?

            What infrastructure? How about a literate and educated workforce? A legal system that allows for the existence of limited liability corporations, intellectual patent rights, and contract law? A judicial system to oversee such laws? What about stable monetary and banking systems from which to get credit? What about systems for national defense and law enforcement? What about a system to insure public health… from clean water to vaccination programs? What of publicly financed basic research?

            Without such infrastructures, that killer idea would be worth nothing. The simple truth the far Right doesn’t want us to consider is that the private sector doesn’t perform any miracles on its own nor do those billionaires make their billions on their own. Most new product ideas are built upon a foundation of older ideas. A well developed and well run PUBLIC sector is crucial in making that wealth possible.

            THIS is the moral basis for a strongly progressive tax code. Perhaps the income tax should be renamed the Opportunity Tax.

          • pete

            How does infrastructure spending, or the fact that many new products are built on previous ideas, in any way change the formulation that fairness is measured by having everyone treated equally under the law?

          • TruthSquad2

            Wasn’t Trax’s point if income isn’t all really independently earned, then higher taxes on some over others can be fair?

          • pete

             It seems to me a strange moral logic finds it fair to charge someone more for using a something that they already overpay for based on the fact that they earn a higher wage. How does the “dependence” on things like infrastructures and schools give the government a greater moral claim to someone’s earnings because they make more?
            People’s taxes are already paying for those things. Even if we had a flat tax, higher income earners would still be generating more money to pay for these services than low-income workers. Given that we have a highly progressive tax system, the higher income earners pay for the bulk of what you claim are the services that help them earn money.
               
                  If we step outside the wage earner, the moral argument for a progressive tax system is even more absurd. Anyone who starts a business and employs people not only generates tax dollars for the government from their own salary, but also from all their employee salaries, as well as sales and corporate taxes. Their business may also produce supporting businesses, and industries (think Apple or Microsoft) that end up providing multiple new streams of government revenue. Those revenue streams would not exist without capitalists
            trying to become rich (or it east better off) and creating their businesses.

                 Outside of the moral argument, why would you want to punish and suppress activities that generate more income for the government? Seems quite self-defeating.

          • Gregg

            Pete, either “TruthSquad2″ has a huge crush on ulTRAX evidenced by a creepy need to follow him around sticking up for him or it’s ulTRAX himself who we already know is creepy.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Nearly TEN years of the ‘W’ Tax-Cuts, the economy is WORSE, unemployment is WORSE,  ADMIT it was a Tax FRAUD, pay it ALL back, plus penalties, plus interest!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Besides Banksters, CEOs that bankrupt companies, CEOs that outsource the jobs, Credit Default Swap Fraudsters, and Health Care Execs, including Big Pharma,  who’s pay has increased by multiples of 4 to 400?  Do teachers make 10 times what they did 20 years ago?  Do construction workers?  400 times?

  • Insignificantother

    If it fails the evil 1s win, and the Tea Party has put them in the position of being able to determine that failure.  See what a bunch of selfish dupes are capable of?
    What the evil 1s don’t yet realize is that if it fails we are going to take every thing they have, including the air they breath, despite their influence with the police and military.

  • MoreRight

    Gregg, you said you were paid to post conservative posts here. How much do they pay and what’s the contact info! Talk about a stay at home job. You must do well since you’re here all the time.

    • Gregg

      I normally wouldn’t reply but, yea, the rate is $10/word (yes, that counts as a word, as do these… and this). I do quite well and spend a lot of time on hobbies such as torturing kittens, picketing abortion clinics, stealing from the homeless, cleaning my guns, imposing my morals and shoveling my money from one end of the basement tot the other… and back. 

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        Once AGAIN Gregg admits to being a PAID Right wing shill…

        It there is EVER a reason for someone to be banned…. it’s for being paid to post PROPAGANDA!!!! 

        WBUR…. are your listening?  

        • Gregg

          Why on earth would I respond to your inanity if I wasn’t being paid? ($150).

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Seems you’re being paid to EVADE many of my posts. Whoever pays you should demand a refund since you’re doing their side more harm than good.

          • Gregg

            I know, ain’t it a kick!? ($70)

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Padding your bill Einstein?

          • Gregg

            Absolutely. ($20)

    • Gregg

      O sorry, I almost forgot, for contact info listen to Rush while standing on your head and you will be able to decode the message coming through your fillings. Be careful not to bite your tongue.

      Gotta go, conference call with David and Charles.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        Notice Greg never outright DENIES he’s being paid to post here. Please correct me if I’m wrong Greggy.

        • Gregg

          Dude, I’ve denied it explicitly over and over again. I think it’s hilarious. ($140)

  • Friedtoad

    BabaBooey

  • Michaellong100

    When the Republican’s talk about job creators I think of people like Henry Ford or in modern times Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. However when you look at the wealthiest people in America more and more of them just sell junk credit in one form or another. How does it help us to cut taxes on Hedge Fund managers, Bank Presidents and Health Insurance CEOs. More than 50% – 70% of our entire economy is in finance! Even ten years ago finance invested in stocks and venture capital did some great things but now banks just buy derivatives including lots and lots of Credit Default Swaps. Convervatives should really ask themselves how you can run a country off bad credit. Just look at bank balance sheets and tell me that this is the free market.

    • Modavations

      You confuse the honest small business man,with the Obama crony-capitalist

      • Michaellong100

        You really must be drinking the Limbaugh cool aid. Obama has been  a disaster in the derivatives market. His economics team – Geithnar, Summers and Bernenke helped create the mess in the Bush Administration. But the Republicans wouldn’t know free enterprise if it walked up and bit them in the a****. Remember Boehner crying his eyes out for bank bailouts or the show when when they tried to regulate derivatives in 2009. Republicans celebrate banking fraud and structured credit fraud like some glorious innovation. Too big to fail exists because of George Bush and still exists because of Obama. I’ll back any party that backs Glass Steagal but every time the common sense regulation that kept banking stable for 60 years is brought up the Republicans act like it is the communist manifesto. If they want to run great entrepeneurs then I’m all for it but the Republican party has lost the ability to distinguish between crime and business. 

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Speaking of drinking the Kool Aid, you certainly were when you called the Reagan era one of enlightened taxation. You seem to have missed the part where Reagan was the one that CUT the top tax rate from 70 to 50% in 1981 then down to 28% in 1986.  

          • Gregg

            It’s only enlightened if you raise taxes, I get it.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            If we need revenue to correct the irresponsible tax cutting policies YOU approve of, then yes… increasing taxes is not just common sense… it IS enlightened fiscal policy.

  • stopWBURcensorship

    Some posts were nuked…. They were NOT a violation of the TOS.

    The heavy hand of WBUR Censorship is back!!!

    PLEASE REPOST!!!!

    • Gregg

      It was just a coupla’ kook post.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        Nearly all were news posts, and the statements of the ‘W’ administration, and government organizations.  Those posts just showed the ‘claimed ineptitude’ of government organizations that have the best and latest computers and other equipment, claiming to be the ‘best’ in the world!

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          And we’re they worst than Moda’s off topic blather or his disruptions of the forum?

          • Terry Tree Tree

            NOT in my book!

      • GreggIsAntiAmerican

        So, you’re the flag-boy, aren’t you Greggless? 

        Figured you were the testosterone-less, anti-free speech tyrant.

        Your head is were a thermometer sometimes goes.

        Ever hear of the 1st Amendment? 

        Go suck some J.Edgar.

        • Gregg

          I did not flag the comments but I remember them. They were “truther” nonsense. They were made by some nut who couldn’t even pick a consistent moniker. But I am flagging you mean-spirited sexually perverted comment here.

          • FlagThisFlagBoy

            Since when is truth, nonsense?  When you don’t believe it.

      • TruthSquad2

        Greg, you’re a genuine kook. So is that the standard WBUR should use to zap posts?

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    When Did the GOP Lose Touch With Reality?

    an article by David Frum… former Bush speech writer:

    http://nymag.com/news/politics/conservatives-david-frum-2011-11/

    Frum is on the right path, but still too kind to a party that has become both psychotic and toxic.

    • Gregg

      We tried the Frum (David Brooks/ Lindsey Graham/etc.) template with McCain. It’s time to shake things up, RINO’s are irrelevant these days.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

         Of course the deeper truth you obviously want to evade is that the GOP has gone insane. What other explanation can there be when the GOP claims new revenues pay no part in reducing the deficit? Even Reagan knew the obvious.   I know you won’t believe me if I say it. But more and more old school GOPers like Frum and Stockman are throwing up red flags that the GOP these days has gone off the deep end. But since you’ve admitted you’re a paid shill for the GOP, I don’t expect a cent of truth in anything your say.  

        • Gregg

          I got your “insane” right here:

          “What other explanation can there be when the GOP claims new revenues pay no part in reducing the deficit?”

          You love that word “claim” when there is none, don’t you? I suspect that is your bizarre bastardization of opposition to raising taxes on the rich.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            So in your Orwellian world describing the GOP position in an accurate way but not one that you consider flattering, somehow deserves a rebuke?

            No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, the GOP’s bottom line has been there’s NO revenue problem and therefore there will be no new taxes or ”tax hikes”.  

          • Gregg

            Quote the claim or shut up.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Greggy, I didn’t think it was possible by you look even MORE silly when you play dumb.

            Do a google search for

            “washington doesn’t have a revenue problem”

            Use the quotes…. it makes for a tighter search. 38,700 hits for this GOP talking point. You can have your choice of which GOP liar made this claim.

          • Gregg

            You’re serious? “Washington doesn’t have a revenue problem” means “the GOP claims new revenues pay no part in reducing the deficit”?
            That’s lame for even you which is cool but it’s dishonest. That’s why I’m here.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Seems once the only reason you’re here was once to spread intellectually dishonest Orwellian Right talking points. You don’t even bother doing that any more. Most of your posts are pure evasion, empty claims like the above, and nit picking. 

            Yup, the GOP is gnawing at the bit to correct their irresponsible fiscal behavior and now bring in new revenues.  

          • Gregg

            Republicans offered up revenue increases but Democrats said no. The super committee failed.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Greggy, you get more sicking by the post.

            So you’ve given up trying to “prove” the GOP’s own statements don’t say they’re against new taxes, and moved on to that phony proposal you talked about in another forum? Hidan already exposed that fraud. But it comes as no surprise you’re back here pretending it’s a genuine offer. In reality it’s a ploy to extend the irresponsible Bush tax cuts by making a smaller revenue offer. The effect would be a massive LOSS of revenue. It comes as no surprise that a disingenuous person such as yourself would pretend a disingenuous offer by the GOP was its opposite.

             

            ” Way down in the same article, in the 16th paragraph, the piece gets around to mentioning that Republican want to trade nearly $300 billion in new revenue for “permanently extending the George W. Bush-era tax cuts past their 2012 expiration date, a move that would increase deficits by about $4 trillion over the next decade.”That’s the kind of detail that more or less debunks the article’s headline and lede. Think about it: as part of a debt-reduction deal, Republicans want to increase tax revenue by less than $300 billion and cut tax revenue by roughly $4 trillion.

            In what universe does it make sense to tell news consumers that Republicans have offered a “tax deal to break the debt impasse”? How does this GOP offer represent a “retreat from their hard-line stance” on taxes?Republican lawmakers are playing foolish games, hoping to give the appearance of flexibility. When the super-committee process breaks down, the GOP wants to be in a position to say, “Well, we tried to negotiate and make credible offers, but Democrats wouldn’t cooperate.”

            http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_11/about_that_gop_debt_deal033375.php
             

          • Gregg

            “So you’ve given up trying to “prove” the GOP’s own statements don’t say
            they’re against new taxes, and moved on to that phony proposal you
            talked about in another forum?”

            That’s just wacky. The GOP is against raising taxes in this economy as are many Democrats. To take that fact and conclude, “the GOP claims new revenues pay no part in reducing the deficit” is beyond dishonest and out and out stupid. You are equating new taxes with revenue, I even saw you describe returning to the Clinton rates as “instant revenue”. No, instant double-dip. An now you say I need to prove your insane comment, your just weird.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Oh, back to you’re sleazy “this economy” language?

            G: “The GOP is against raising taxes in this economy as are many Democrats.”

            We’ve been down this road how many times before Greggy? The question really isn’t whether taxes should be ”raised” now… but whether the Right will EVER support the reversal of the irresponsible Bush tax cuts even if we’re in an economic boom. We know the answer… and it’s NO.

            So PLEASE stop playing your games.  

          • Gregg

            No, dammit the question is whether we raise them now. Anything else is irrelevant prognostication. I have been consistent.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            You’ve never been consistent Gregg… and I’ve brought this point up over and over… only to have you evade it as usual. You bragged that the Bush economy was humming back in 06-07 and revenues were pouring in. Yet you NEVER said THAT was the time to raise taxes to recoup revenue lost to those tax cuts.  

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            For anyone other than Greggy who is determined to both the defend irresponsible GOP behavior yet deny they’re irresponsible, one need not go far but that first Eric Cantor video.

            According to Canter and all the other GOPers who have spouted similar lines, if there’s no revenue problem in Washington, it’s all a SPENDING problem… spending what we don’t have… and they define getting the fiscal house in order must be done cutting spending instead of also raising revenue, then new tax revenue is OFF LIMITS.

            Now while more recently some GOPer have wondered whether some one-time sales of federal land might help, the bedrock position of the GOP is not to surrender an inch on letting the irresponsible Bush tax cuts expire… no matter how much revenue we’ve lost to them and how much we need now to close the deficit gap and pay down debt. But then it was the GOP who sabotaged debt paydown back in 2001… a position it seems just about every right winger here supports… so what else could we expect from them?

          • FlagThisFlagBoy

            When’s the last time you quoted one of your claims?

          • Gregg

            I NEVER write that someone has claimed what they clearly haven’t.

          • TruthSquad2

            Sure you do Greg, and you do it all the time if you think going on the offense protects you from having to respond to inconvenient truths.

          • Gregg

            Quote me, liar.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Gee Greggy, if you repeatedly resort to a tatic, don’t blame others for picking up on it. I don’t know what examples TS is thinking of but you did just that with my projecting Clinton revenue numbers into the Bush era. You REFUSED to deal with the reality that Bush revenues were drastically slashed during this time and babbled on that your didn’t like the way I presented the numbers. You’re STILL not dealing with those revenue numbers instead just decreeing they’re warped.

            So Greggy, again, the liar is you.   

          • Gregg

            I NEVER write that someone has claimed what they clearly haven’t and the liar said I do “all the time”. No examples. I deny the charge. It’s like he/she thinks he/she’s God proclaiming.

            I don’t see why your fantasy projections (that no economist uses) have anything to do with anything. They certainly are not an example of my saying someone claimed something they didn’t. What are you talking about?

          • GregsNotHonest

            so the cbo numbers are lying? and there was some revenue bonus from the bush tax cuts?

            where else would we find the numbers to prove your claim greg, but those revenue numbers?

          • Gregg

            OMB but you are failing to distinguish between historical tables and projections.

          • GregsNotHonest

            your little game isn’t fooling anyone. you’re obsession with whether trax was clear or not is a smokescreen for not addressing his post which was that those bush tax cuts were designed to lose money. bush said then the tax cuts would cost $1.6 trillion over ten years and that’s before the the 03 bill sped things up.

            http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/04/20010416-4.html

  • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

    This sums up some of the Right’s dementia: Imagine yourself a rank-and-file Republican in 2009: If you have not lost your job or your home, your savings have been sliced and your children cannot find work. Your retirement prospects have dimmed. Most of all, your neighbors blame you for all that has gone wrong in the country. There’s one thing you know for sure: None of this is your fault! And when the new president fails to deliver rapid recovery, he can be designated the target for everyone’s accumulated disappointment and rage. In the midst of economic wreckage, what relief to thrust all blame upon Barack Obama as the wrecker-in-chief.

    The Bush years cannot be repudiated, but the memory of them can be discarded to make way for a new and more radical ideology, assembled from bits of the old GOP platform that were once sublimated by the party elites but now roam the land freely: ultralibertarianism, crank monetary theories, populist fury, and paranoid visions of a Democratic Party controlled by ACORN and the New Black Panthers.

  • Mhorn01

    I think the sad part is that our country is so divided that we can not even have a civil discussion on issues that are bleeding us dry. The result is simple; we will hang separate, since we can not hang together. 

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      The reason there can’t be a civil discussion about our fiscal problems is because the GOP has taken truth and common sense off the table. The facts are that the Bush tax cuts have slashed revenue so deeply that in constant dollars they only exceeded Clinton’s last year two of the past 10 years… and one of those years was a paltry 14 billion. And common sense tells us there are TWO variables to any budget… revenue and spending. The GOP has taking revenue off the table.

      • Gregg

        That’s warped.

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          God Almighty has decreed something is “warped” and he need not bother to demonstrate how. We’re all just to take his word as if handed down on a slab. Obviously Greggy again thinks through such posts we can better appreciate his intelligence and critical thinking.

          • Gregg

            That’s delusional.

    • StartThinking

      Why do you think there is a two party system?

      Why do you think the system is bleeding us dry?

      Why do you think everything is framed in black or white?

      Why do you think every measure is taken and every expense is made to determine us to hang separately?

      The only thing easier to control than two choices is one choice.

      Choice equals power.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

         The two party system is a byproduct of how we hold elections. If every winner-take-all election is held within a defined district or state, then it creates an artificial dynamic to vote for one major party or the other. To vote your conscience for a third party runs the risk of splitting the majority throwing the election to a candidate with the largest plurality but who most voters oppose.  Other nations have dealt with this by allowing for nationwide party voting… so if the Greens or Libertarians each get 10% of the national vote, they each get 10% of the seats. Our Constitution, and I believe every state constitution, prohibits this.  Bottom line, as a Progressive, I can pay taxes and vote forever and under this system I’ll NEVER get representation for my beliefs. The apologists will claim… anyone can run and compete and it sounds plausible. But it’s a half truth. The system is stacked against any third or fourth party… and it’s no wonder why voting rates are so abysmal as they are in the US. The public is showing a no-confidence in a system that just cannot deliver on the what an electoral/governmental system is supposed to do: accurately measure public consent to ensure government has moral legitimacy.

        • TwoPercentSolution

          The problem is not getting them there – it’s what happens to them when they get there. 

          Take the money out of the election cycle and the power returns to the people. 

          The once-upon-on-time minority parties have all been co-opted by the establishment and the process in European countries

          The states’ 2% solution:

          The United States and Switzerland are the only countries in the world that don’t have national ballot access standards for federal elections…

          On the other hand, a number of court decisions are routinely cited as supporting the principle that states have considerable leeway, if justified by legitimate and compelling interests, to regulate who may appear on the ballot…

          In most states, the requirement is less than 2%.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            In our system we can have:
             100% voter participation 
            100% public financing 100% vote count accuracy and

            We’ll still have a system where one’s vote is weighted by choice of state residence;  18% of the population will still have a majority in the Senate where they have a veto over the House;

            A presidential candidate REJECTED by the People can still be imposed on the nation by the EC;

            4.5% of the population can block any amendment;

            We’ll still have a dysfunctional if not braindead two party system which deprives many citizens of the right to vote their conscience and get representation for their beliefs;

            We’ll still have Gerrymandering.

            I could go on….

            Believing finance reform alone will clean up our system is naïve in the extreme because our REAL problem is in the anti-democratic and reform proof nature of our federal system.

          • TwoPercentSolution

            No doubt, the electoral college is the fire wall for the political elite.

            Mathematically, a president can win by only carrying 11 states.

            The federal system has eroded states rights since the Whiskey Rebellion. 

            Currently, the power of the executive branch overwhelms the others.

            So, our only chance is to take back the legislative branch:

            Chuck Hagel, Republican senator from Nebraska, says:  There’s a very clear pattern of aggressively asserting executive power, and the Congress has essentially been complicit in letting him do it. The key is that Bush has a Republican Congress; of course if it was a Clinton presidency we’d be holding hearings.

            Remember, in 2007 the Democrats won the majority in the house and nothing happened for two years?
             
            The only way to start getting back control of the legislative branch is to throw the carpetbagging incumbents out, until ‘we the people’ can make the necessary changes to get some of our power back.

            The same process needs start happening at the state level. 

            Then, the states need to start flexing their collective muscles and selectively challenge the federal system on precedent setting issues. 

            Do you think reform is impossible and any process of improving the system is moot?

            Do you have a better suggestion on how to start?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

    “The Super Committee failed because Republicans’ number one, non-negotiable priority is to protect millionaires and billionaires from paying even one more penny in taxes.1 Democrats repeatedly offered deep spending cuts (far deeper than most progressives would like) in exchange for raising taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes, only to be refused again and again.2 So even though the vast majority of Americans say they want to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, and raise taxes on the rich and corporations,3 that won’t happen until Republicans put aside their extremist stance…
    1. “No, ‘both sides’ aren’t equally to blame for supercommittee failure,” The Washington Post, November 21, 2011http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/no-both-sides-arent-equally-to-blame-for-supercommittee-failure/2011/11/21/gIQAj31ehN_blog.html2. “Wonkbook: In supercommittee, Dems moved right and Republicans moved righter,” The Washington Post, November 22, 2011http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/wonkbook-which-party-gave-more-ground-in-the-supercommittee/2011/11/22/gIQAVugkkN_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein3. “CNN Poll: What The Super Committee Produced Is…Exactly What We Don’t Want,” Talking Points Memo, November 21, 2011http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/cnn-poll-what-the-super-committee-produced-isexactly-what-we-dont-want.php“Medicare, Social Security & The Deficit,” National Committee to Preserve Social Security & Medicare, September 2011http://www.ncpssm.org/pdf/poll.pdf”Source: http://front.moveon.org/top-5-fox-myths-to-debunk-this-thanksgiving/?rc=fb.fan

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

      It seems pretty obvious that if we are going to get serious about addressing our enormous National Debt we will need to reduce spending (esp military [some 1.5 trillion/year incl. related costs like retired military benefits] and by reforming healthcare but also perhaps by means testing entitlements and raising the retirement age, etc) as well as increase revenues (esp by closing loopholes and raising taxes on those best able to pay them). Pretty simple stuff really. In the short term we REALLY need to get people back to work. It’s impossible to pay down your debts if you don’t have a job.

  • Terry Tree Tree

    SUPER-FLOP!!!  Designed from the outset to fail!  Compromise CANNOT happen when one side refuses to compromise!! When ANY side says from the start that they WILL NOT GIVE any ground, that is NOT compromise!  That is DICTATORSHIP!!

  • Modavations

    When Ultrax was called the “invisible poster”,who shadows certain posters under a similar name(ie.Moda and Modalame),he cried like a stuck pig.I’m innocent,I’m inniocent.Now you know how it feels,to be innocent  with no way to defend

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Enough with your psychotic ramblings. I’ve no idea what you babbling about. Take you meds Moda. I like this user name and it’s the one I insist on using when in political debates. When I’m exposing your nonsense, I want you to know it me.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      BTW… just who called me the “invisible poster”? I recall no such post otherwise I probably would have responded.  As for defending one’s “innocence”… I also have no idea who you’re babbling about. We all have the same tools.  If you’re portraying yourself as ” innocent”, it’s a laughable claim.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        As I could have predicted, the term “invisible poster” doesn’t even turn up in a search of this site. But then consider the source…  

  • Modavations

    To hear Ultrax, you’d think the Bush Tax cuts actually came out of his pocket.This is the tax cut that Mr.Ultrax wants to rescind…….
    The Bush Tax Cut
    33% of the cut went to the Poorest.The rate dropped from 15 to 10%.11% were dropped from the roles entirely and pay nothing.
    6% went to the rich(the” job creators” is what JFK called them),rates dropped 39ish to 35%.
             Mr Ultrax wants this repealed.Of the 4 Trillion(ten years),the portion of the rich is 700Billion,or 70 Billion per year.GAO says there is 200Billion,govt.waste and fraud(duplication and redundancy are rife)per annum.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Gee Moda, I thought we’d be free of your blather at least until Monday as you promised.

      Waste, fraud, abuse SHOULD, of course, be addressed. But what the GOP is doing is hoping their base will never look at their own abuse of government with overspending and irresponsible tax cuts… essentially stealing from future taxpayers to buy votes today. To them the bonus is the debt they create will benefit them and undermine the Democrats and their programs. But the simple truth is if we COULD NOT AFFORD THOSE 2001 TAX CUTS, then it doesn’t matter what alleged “good” they did because there was a more important “good” that Bush PROMISED to do: pay down debt and Bush in 2000 admitted it was necessary to strengthen Social Security. Soon those Trust Fund IOUs WILL have to be paid back… and it would have been better if debt were paid DOWN… not increasing. 

      There is a deep pathology at work here. People like Moda want their Free Lunch and to eat it too. We never could afford those tax cuts, they prevented paying down what was back in 2001 a SIX TRILLION dollar debt, Bush then went on to add $5 Trillion more in debt, crashed the economy leaving the federal government to keep it on life supports. So now we’re NINE trillion more in debt than just a decade ago, and Moda, like other right wing kooks here pretend that those irresponsible Bush tax cuts must NEVER be revisited… that somehow we can eliminate the deficit and pay down the debt by going after government wasted. The obvious problem is where’s the beef? Even assuming $70 billion in improper payments for Medicare/Medicaid… sure, go after it. But even if it were ALL eliminated that’s only about 16% OF INTEREST WE PAY EACH YEAR ON THE DEBT. Is that even sinking in Moda? Didn’t think so. We could cut a third from defense… about 230 billion… and together with Medicare savings brings us to $300 billion. We’re now up to about 66% of just the interest we’re paying.  

      The determined fiscal irresponsibility of the Right… done with the hope of sabotaging Democratic safety net programs, has dug the US into such a deep hole, ALL such suggestions like Moda’s are DELUSIONS. If we NEVER could afford the Bush tax cuts, and they helped create more debt… in the range of 2-3 TRILLION, then a key part of the solution is not just letting them expire… but RECOUPING REVENUE THAT SHOULD HAVE GONE TO PAYING DOWN DEBT.   .

  • Modavations

    I saw the movie Money Ball.It was great!!!

  • TurkeyTrollWinner

    J.Edgar – You are the turkey-troll winner for these comment pages:

    Approximately, over 100 posts of the total 700-plus comments.

    Do you get paid per asinine, abusive statement?

    Business must be good for you.

    (And, I thought you were going to be away until Monday.)

    In order to troll here so extensively, you must be an extremely lonely and/or a pathologically pathetic person.

    Too bad the technology used here won’t let us uninvite you as easily.

  • HighCostofBadCare

    You know what’s killing us literally (by death) and figuratively (by economics)?

    The cost of our ‘health care’:

    The study said Americans pay more than $7,900 per person for healthcare each year – far more than any other OECD country – but still die earlier than their peers in the industrialized world… 

    They also spend more tax money on healthcare than most other countries, the study showed.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065548/U-S-ranks-28th-life-expectancy-pay-MOST-health-care.html#ixzz1eeoqCjYE

    • Gregg

      That’s the gorilla in the room, Obamacare. No economic recovery is possible until it’s repealed.

      • YouThinkLikeAGorilla

        Pablum.  Ignorance.  Your specialties.

        These are statistics from before ‘Obamacare’ was signed in March, 2010. 

        If you would have read the article, you might have comprehended the last lines:

        Mr Pearson said one reason prices are higher in the United States is
        that the healthcare system lacks what other countries have: an
        effective government mechanism that acts to keep prices down.

        “That’s simply not there in the U.S. system. So it’s a structural defect,” he said.

        Or, instead of twitching like an imbecile in reaction, a little more research would reveal:

        The OECD said U.S. public spending on
        healthcare reached 8 percent of the economy versus a 7 percent OECD
        average in 2009, the latest year for which comparison figures are
        available.

        http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/us-usa-healthcare-oecd-idUSTRE7AM0NN20111123

        In case your are slow on the uptake, here’s another source for correlation:

        …the share of GDP devoted to health care spending grew from 9% of GDP
        in 1980 to 16% of GDP in 2008. This 7 percentage-point increase in
        health spending as a share of GDP is one of the largest across the
        OECD. 

        http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/OECD042111.cfm

        • Gregg

          Obamacare has made it worse.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            God Gregg declares it so… so it must be true.

          • Gregg

            There’s a lot of experts declaring. In my view it isn’t even Constitutional. 

          • CareLessHealth

            The point is, our current ‘health care’ system is ineffective, expensive and a wasteful use of our resources – 16/17% of GDP.

            The ‘Obamacare’ solution proposed is a terrible and possibly an illegal solution – which the Supreme Court ‘should’ agree with.

            Un-privatized and nationalize system is the only answer.

            I’m already tired of paying and subsidizing high insurance costs for inefficient and unnecessary care for everyone else.

            But, we shouldn’t punish the poor because they don’t pay or the middle-class because they afford the proper care.

            If the 1% can pay for better care, let them find it.

          • Gregg

            Other than your third paragraph, I agree completely.

          • YouThinkLikeAGorilla

            So, what’s the solution Magilla?

          • Gregg

            I don’t have one, why YouThinkLikeAGorilla?

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Our entire health care industry was already a disaster. You can pretend ObamaCare is to blame if you want… and no doubt you will. But we also know you’d never support the real reforms needed to fix the system.  

          • Gregg

            What’s your purpose ulTRAX? Is it impossible for you to refrain from projecting and twisting everything? Health care in America is a problem and Obamacare was not the answer.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Who’s twisting things here Greggy?  WHERE DID I SAY OBAMA CARE WAS THE ANSWER? I’ve clearly said I US health care was already a disaster, that I don’t like the directions these reforms went in, and that they really won’t fix our real problems. What I’ve also said was ObamaCare was NOT the disaster you claim… it’s not preventing economic recovery etc.

             

            You’ve made 10 posts to this thread and NINE are empty-headed assertions. So what’s YOUR purpose Greggy?

          • Gregg

            My purpose is honest debate. If you are incapable of refraining from putting words in my mouth , telling me what I think and then criticizing what you say I mean then you have no purpose. That’s why I asked.

            For example, you wrote: “Our entire health care industry was already a disaster. You can pretend ObamaCare is to blame if you want… and no doubt you will”. You then go on to tell me I would, “never support the real reforms needed to fix the system”. As if a) you’re clairvoyant and, b) you have the only answer. Elitist crap.  That’s what I was responding to. I never said Pre-Obama health care was perfect. I think it was severely flawed and in bad need of reform. I think Obamacare not only made it worse but is unconstitutional and fundamentally transforms America… as promised. And somehow you indignantly ask in caps, “WHERE DID I SAY OBAMA CARE WAS THE ANSWER?” Huh? Where did I say you did? Same ol’ stuff.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Greg wrote: “You then go on to tell me I would, “never support the real reforms needed to fix the system”. As if a) you’re clairvoyant..”

            Greg, you can’t think outside of your right wing talking points… tort reform, allow companies to compete across state lines, etc.

            “ and, b) you have the only answer. Elitist crap.”

            Gee, I’m proposing pretty much what other nations have PROVEN to be a more efficient health care system and you propose right wing talking points. The one full of elitist crap isn’t I?

          • Gregg

            You lost me, I have no idea what you are talking about. The elitist crap come in the form of you thinking you know the “real reforms” with clarity and if I have a different view then I won’t support health care reform. Elitist crap.

          • Gregg

            It’s like saying if someone doesn’t want to raise taxes in this economy then they think revenue has no role in the economy. Stupid stuff.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Greg, maybe one of these days you’ll have finally have some genuine insight into the problems we face which will force your to shed your Right wing talking points.

            Maybe, just maybe, you’ll  FINALLY have an original thought. Then you can dazzle us with your insight and intellect. 

            I won’t hold my breath that will ever happen.

          • Gregg

            I’m not the one who made the stupid Evel Knievel leap described above. 

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I’ve no idea what you’re even babbling about. Where’s this giant leap? I wrote: “Maybe, just maybe, you’ll  FINALLY have an original thought. Then you can dazzle us with your insight and intellect.  I won’t hold my breath that will ever happen.”

            Gregg, in six months I honestly can say I’ve never seen you post a single original thought that wasn’t a right wing talking point. You told or asked someone why they didn’t appreciate your critical thinking… IT’S BECAUSE YOU’VE NEVER DEMONSTRATED ANY. Coming to that conclusion was recognizing the obvious, not a giant leap.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Blah blah.. repeating your nonsense doesn’t make it more true. The vast majority of industrialized nations have REJECTED your right wing model for health care. They have PROVEN they can deliver better health care at a cheaper price than we can. The real question is why hasn’t the Right in the US admitted their approach is folly? Oh, I remember. It’s because the GOP represents business and business is always looking for easy ways to make big profits.  

          • Gregg

            The one full of elitist crap isn’t me. “I” is hoity toity.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        And the source of your god-like assertion is? Oh ya… probably the regular suspects… Orwellian Right sources like Cato, Heritage… The problem with the economy isn’t health care, though it’s private sector inefficiency can be a drag. It’s the very right wing ideas YOU support… free trade, and unregulated Wall Street that prefers gambling to investment, and a commodity market full of speculators.

        • Gregg

          It’s a disaster.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            It’s hardly a disaster… but it’s also not a solution. The problem with our health care sector is it’s a hodgepodge of public and thousands of private health care pools each covering part of the population for this but not that, and each with their own billing procedure, and admin overhead. There’s probably no more INEFFICIENT way to do health care than how we do it. Any one person, if they’re lucky to be covered at all, may be covered by 3-4 health care pools… one for auto, another for workman’s comp, an employer based insurance, etc.

            ObamaCare main failure was in not making any fundamental reforms to this fragmented system yet until we do we’re not going to bring health care costs down. Maybe in a few more years we’ll finally realize what most other industrialized democracies have learned: we’ll have to go Single Payer.
              

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

            Single payer was impossible given GOP/TP (and Blue Dog) opposition along with lobby pressure from big pharma and the insurance industry. Doing nothing (or repealing healthcare reform) would be disastrous. Obamacare was a compromise based on “conservative” market-based ideas. It aint perfect but hopefully it’s a step in the right direction and it should save money in the long run. What we really need to do is move away from a fee-for-service model which encourages expensive, less than optimal and even counter-productive tests, procedures and medicines) towards a more cost-effective and results-oriented system. 

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I’m well aware of the background… and part of the history of ObamaCare is that Obama never laid down the line to Congress that the public option was a must… and we know he made big concessions to BigPharma early on. It was a mistake to cave to big business as it was to let Wall Street go unscathed after they crashed the economy. He had that once chance to break the back of Wall Street power and corruption… to nationalize and break up the big banks…. and set them back to investing instead of gambling… and Obama failed that critical task. If he had, Big HealthCare  might have thought twice about opposing the Public Option… or maybe even laying the foundation for Single Payer.

          • Gregg

            The biggest concessions were to the trail lawyers (no tort reform) and unions (waivers).

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Tort reform is just a fig leaf to cover the Right’s attempt to defund the Democratic Party by going after one of the key groups that contributes heavily to Dems. Same with going after unions.

            Sure there would be some savings if patients harmed by medical errors don’t get full compensation. But the CBO estimates it’s about 5.4 billion a year. That’s not chump change but hardly the gamechanging reform the GOP pretends it is. Just for a contrast, Big Pharma pisses away some $20 billion annually just on promoting drugs. Since much of these drugs are paid for with public funds, why not look for savings there?  

            http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=441

          • Gregg

            I’ve seen that CBO report but not the data Rockefeller gave them. I do not think it possible to calculate how many test, procedures and CYA maneuvers would NOT be done if there were no fear of frivolous lawsuits. I’ve seen estimates over $250 billion. I’m not sure how they got them either.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            One investigative report that I read, revealed that 56% of Mal-practice is committed by less than 6% of physicians!   It doesn’t take much of a mathemetician to easily see how to STOP over HALF  of malpractice!!   The AMA WHINES about the higher mal-practice insurance, instead of doing the RIGHT, LEAST EXPENSIVE, MORAL THING!!

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            When your find the source for that $250 billion, post it.

          • Gregg

            Why? So you can dismiss it as some right wing hack job and tell me I’m evading some key point? This tells me you are not informed. You act as if you are but how could you not be familiar with the estimates. It was a big debate during the run up to Obamacare. Just google tort reform and $250 billion (or 252 or 254) and catch up.

          • Gregg

            I agree with the first half of your post, the second, not so much. I appreciate your including the “Blue Dogs” but Stupek’s crew folded like chairs for a meaningless signing statement. So, I agree single payer wasn’t going to happen but I think you sell short just how much of a paradigm shift this was and the odds that were beaten. Not one Republican in the House or Senate voted for this bill. I understand the perspective that says it’s because the Republicans were being obstructionist but there’s a flip side. That would be the Republican party line: “Obamacare was rammed down our throats”. It has merit. Can you think of ANY bill in the history of America that was as partisan while being so dramatically influential? I can’t. It seems to me, if you are going to have the government take over 1/6th of the economy and move the country one step closer to Socialism (Sorry, it’s true) then you should do it with a consensus. Obama did it with bribes (Ben Nelson, Mary Landreiu, Stupek, etc) and reconciliation which is a very big deal.

            And then there’s the big picture. Progressives are called progressives for a reason. The foot’s in the door.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE

            I have left aside the numerous “new” numbers regarding jobs lost, doctor shortages, implementation, and revenue unneutrality. Ditto the 1000+ waivers which are a stomping ground for sadistic Conservatives… like me at times.

            If you’re interested in what most of America is thinking then understand, we think it’s now or never. All this BS about compromise and tone is just that… BS. It’s time to decide one way or the other.

          • Terry Tree Tree

            Good Start!

          • Terry Tree Tree

            BEFORE the Affordable Health-care plan, ObamneyCare to the GREEDY rich, and their lackeys,  The U.S. was spending FIVE times as much as the next-highest-spending-developed-nation, with ONE THIRD of our people uninsured!  That makes it more equivalent to SEVEN or EIGHT times!   Yet we get some of the worst results, except $Billionaire Health-Care Executives!  THOSE executives whine about costs, and cut Nursing, and other personnel that actually CARE for patients!  So they can pocket MORE money!!

          • Gregg

            What on Earth do you mean by “worst results”? Are you talking about life expectancy? I’ve heard that one but it’s a canard. Enlighten me. 

          • YouThinkLikeAGorilla

            Enlighten you?  Is that possible?

            “The total number of iatrogenic deaths shown in the following table is 783,936. It is evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the United States.” 

            http://www.whale.to/a/null9.html

            Warning: There’s a 152 references to this study – your head might explode.

          • Gregg

            The claim was America has the worst results compared with other countries. Your link does not address that at all.

          • YouThinkLikeAGorilla

            The claim was, ‘Yet we get some of the worst results’…

            The links provided above prove that the most dangerous/most expensive ratio belongs to US health care system.

            Still waiting on your alternative solution to an ‘un-privatized and nationalized’ system reform.

          • Gregg

            “The U.S. was spending FIVE times as much as the next-highest-spending-developed-nation…” -TTT

          • Terry Tree Tree

            And about one-third of U.S. citizens have NO health-insurance, making it more like SEVEN or EIGHT times! 
                WOW!  You got part of it!

          • Gregg

            I’m paying attention TTT, sometimes I agree, sometimes I don’t. either way, I get it.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            What studies like “U.S. Health Care Spending:Comparison with Other OECD Countries” show is for all the mone we piss away for health care on a per capita basis, we DON’T have stellar results compared to nations that spend far less.  

            http://opencrs.com/document/RL34175/

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            According to a 2007 study U.S. Health Care Spending:Comparison with Other OECD Countries

            Medical Errors. The United States has the third-highest rate of deaths frommedical errors, among 26 countries reporting (Figure 25). This poor ranking couldbe due to differences in reporting methodologies across OECD countries, higher ratesof surgical procedures performed by doctors in the United States, or actual differences in the quality of medical care relative to other countries.The United States has the third-highest rate of deaths frommedical errors, among 26 countries reporting (Figure 25). This poor ranking couldbe due to differences in reporting methodologies across OECD countries, higher ratesof surgical procedures performed by doctors in the United States, or actual differences in the quality of medical care relative to other countries.Figure 25). This poor ranking couldbe due to differences in reporting methodologies across OECD countries, higher ratesof surgical procedures performed by doctors in the United States, or actual differences in the quality of medical care relative to other countries.

  • Gregg

    Black Friday evidently was not the economic boom it normally is. We have a government spending out of control and a debt that is unsustainable. Solution: more spending. To make matters worse people are being encouraged to spend as well. More wide screen TV’s, don’t save spend! the world is upside down.

    • GorillaBrain

      Too much turkey and grog? You’re making as much sense as GWB:

      “One of the very difficult parts of the decision I made on the financial crisis was to use hardworking people’s money to help prevent there to be a crisis.”

      –George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 12, 2009

      “I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system.”

       –George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 16, 2008

      “There’s no question about it. Wall Street got drunk — that’s one of the reasons I asked you to turn off the TV cameras — it got drunk and now it’s got a hangover. The question is how long will it sober up and not try to do all these fancy financial instruments.”

      –George W. Bush, speaking at a private fundraiser, Houston, Texas, July 18, 2008 

    • Anonymous

      Those ads were not from the government, black Friday is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. When 70% of our economy depends on consumer spending you can’t expect growth if you cut this a lot can you now.

      The debt can be managed with some sensible revenue and cuts.
      You seem to be putting a lot of things into one bag. Which is not really the way one should look at the mess we are in.  

      • Gregg

        I didn’t mean to do that, I definitely think the solution is multi-faceted. I was merely making an observation that we have a irresponsible government hoping for irresponsible spending in the private sector. It’s a philosophical thing so when you write, “When 70% of our economy depends on consumer spending you can’t expect growth if you cut this a lot can you now”. it illustrates my point precisely.Consumer spending is not something the government can cut. It’s up to the consumer and being responsible by saving or paying down debt is the last the government is encouraging.

        • Terry Tree Tree

          ‘W’ said for people to not worry about it, National Security depended on people spending money!  Whether they had it or not!  Whether they were worried about losing their jobs and homes!  SPEND!

          • Gregg

            Well, I don’t remember that but GWB was definitely NOT a paragon of fiscal responsibility.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Gee, has Greggy seen the light?

            Hardly. He’ll ignore the irresponsible tax cuts side of the ledger and blame all of Bush’s fiscal irresponsibility on spending.

          • Gregg

            Same position I’ve always had and yes spending was the problem (along with growing government). It’s just like now, we don’t have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

            It’s cute the way you call me “Greggy”, it reminds me of my mother. Thanx.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            As predicted, you’re intellectually incapable of seeing how protecting or increasing revenue plays ANY role in a budget.

            Are there any intelligent right wingers out there?

            And Greggy, get off that computer right now and stop telling people fibs.  

          • Gregg

            “As predicted, you’re intellectually incapable of seeing how protecting or increasing revenue plays ANY role in a budget.”

            Ooo, caps and everything! I would say you lack the capability to understand nuance but it ain’t nuance. You can’t see a chasm. Let me try again, there is NOTHING contradictory about the following sentence: Revenue plays a valuable role and any recovery will need to protect or increase revenue but our problem is spending.

            Now, unless you can tell me where the contradiction is… exactly, then my opinion that you are intellectually incapable of distinguishing between a need and a want, stands.
             

  • NoMatterWhatTheParty

    The carpetbaggers in DC never cared about the friggin’ deficit or what happened to the 99.9% rest of us.

    That’s why our debt has quadrupled in the past decade. 

    They knew they could slash our throats to get the blood they needed or sell us for cheap to their corporate masters.

    They never cared about the financial destruction caused by the banksters while the government agencies looked the other way.

    Who’s getting the shaft?  We are.

    Who caused it?  They did.

    Just look at how our government treats our brave Veterans and their families. 

    That’s how much they care about.

    Throw all of these career political whores out and next year we’ll have one of the best Thanksgivings ever.

    Keep voting incumbents out until the changes you want are made.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      I have to take issue with your painting with such a broad brush. In 2000 we had a true on-budget surplus. We weren’t even borrowing from the trust funds… and we started to pay down debt. Bush ran on continuing to pay down debt to protect Social Security FIRST and the tax cut second.
       http://romcache.tripod.com/bush2000.pdf 
      It was the Right that was afraid of the surplus and you see it in the writings at their think tanks. Newt was already proposing a massive tax cut in 98 and 99… to have it vetoed by Clinton. Once in power it was Bush and the GOP who broke their promise and as soon as they had a chance passed a massive tax cut knowing it would sabotage the surplus which was already gone by 2001.

      Why would any political party act in such an insane manner? It’s because the far Right has always wanted to get rid of New Deal and Great Society safety net programs but they knew they could never run on that platform. But they could buy votes with tax cuts. They would still use the language of old time fiscal conservatives but they’d create massive debt and hope for a budget crisis they could use as a pretense to weaken or even abolish those Democratic programs.

      This is their moment and they know it. To give an inch on new taxes or to let the Bush tax cuts expire would drive a stake into their 30 year strategy.

      • NoMatterWhatTheParty

        It is a broad brush for a reason:

        Plenty of the people who were responsible for eliminating the surplus in 2001, and scrapping the Clinton administration’s plans to pay down the national debt, are still in Congress today, whining about the size of the debt they helped create.

        http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/03/responsible_keynesianism?page=2

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          The real fiscal insanity comes from the Right. It’s one thing to observe the insanity, as the blog does: “Just think out the reasoning process here. At the bottom of the business cycle, the government runs a deficit. At the top of the business cycle, when the government runs a surplus, it must immediately return that surplus to taxpayers. What exactly did these people expect this model would lead to?”

          It’s another to realize that there was a purpose to the insanity. The GOP KNEW what they were doing… they could see the deficits an debt increasing. Yet they never reversed course but instead pretended that a shrinking deficit proved they were being responsible even when they sabotaged debt paydown. They  increased the debt because the Right saw a political advantage in doing so.

          • NoMatterWhatTheParty

            Is it not obvious that psychopaths are in charge?

            Is is not obvious that the financial system is being used to destroy
            the economies of our Republic and many other sovereign nations?

            The GOP is only half of the insane folks in the psycho ward.

            Don’t you think Clinton was nuts for repealing the Glass-Steagall act? 

            Don’t you think the corruption Dodd got away with on the Senate Banking Committee was insane?

            Don’t you think Frank was crazy for perpetuating the collusion with the mortgage industry while Chair of the House Financial Services Committee which watched over Fannie and Freddie?

            If the GOP struck the match that burned the down the barn and the
            Democrats supplied the matches and gasoline, aren’t they as criminally
            complicit?

            Both parties are only the Hegelian Dialectic proxies for their bankster masters.

            Ranting and raving about oneside or another weakens an objective vision of the endemic corruption rife within our system.  

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Let me clarify. Of COURSE some Dems are involved in the collapse of the economy. DLC corporate Dems like Clinton did subscribe to nutty right wing ideas like free trade and deregulation. I clearly talk about that in other posts and in http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/2011/10/proposal-for-occupy-wall-street.html  We also see some remorse by Clinton about some of these issues we’ll never see from the Right… not that it matters since Obama has been drinking the same Kool Aid. I should also add at best the Dems are the lesser of the evils and generally I have nothing but contempt for them… though there are a few I like… Kucinich come to mind. But even then NO Dem supports the kind of democratic reforms I believe are needed. But I was addressing a narrower topic: fiscal policy. And in this area it IS the GOP that has adopted a dangerous strategy of sabotaging the fiscal health of the nation hoping to undermine Democratic safety net programs.

  • Mhorn01

    Are you people really serious or are these just Fox and MSNBC talking points. The reality is every American from the rich to the poor have a part in the making of the Federal Deficit. From tax breaks for the rich; to tax breaks for the poor (called the earned income credit). It’s not Washington’s fought that Americans have a not in my pocketbook mentality. It’s easy to say tax the rich; but don’t touch my tax credit on my kids or house; or cut the government benefits for the elderly; but leave my student loan program alone.
    We say cut the Military budget, but have yet to discuss our vital role in the world. At this point in history we have kept world peace for almost seventy years. The issues of Europe today would have turned into a war, two generations ago. It has not since our military protects Europe, and has kept them from creating a military machine that would have resulted in another European War. Do we simply forgo this mission? Russia is still a threat to Europe do we forgo this mission? China and North Korea are still threats to our interest in the Pacific. Do we close our bases in Japan and the Philippines, and send our troops home from South Korea; if we do kiss South Korea good bye.
    It is time for people to stop political name calling and start thinking. We The People need to start thinking about the future of our country and what that future is going to look like.
     

    • StartThinking

      Who do you think finances the build up of military mechanisms which then need policing?

      Who do you think initiates and manages the processes of debt, trade, regulations and taxation?

      Who do you think controls the value, supply and flow of money?

      Banksters control corporations; corporations control governments; governments control people.

      Money equals control.

      • Terry Tree Tree

        DEFINITELY!!

    • Gregg

      Did you see the last Foreign Policy debate?

  • StartThinking

    Don’t believe the austerity hype. 

    Our corporately controlled government and their bankster masters are trying to turn your jeans into cutoffs.

    How the surplus in 2001, became a deficit in 2010:

    Here’s a review: Compared with 2001′s projections, tax revenue in 2010 fell $1.1 trillion short, and defense spending went $330 billion over…

    The point of this isn’t to place blame. It’s to show that much of the debate surrounding our current deficits is misguided.

    The factors that took the country from surpluses 10 years ago to deficits today aren’t, for the most part, those that are constantly maligned by the media and political parties — bailouts, stimulus spending, earmarks, bridges to nowhere, foreign aid, and social causes.

    It’s simpler than that.

    We had massive tax cuts, two wars, and a giant recession. It’s difficult to take seriously any deficit-reduction proposal that doesn’t take these into consideration. Something to think about.

    http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/02/02/how-the-surplus-became-a-deficit.aspx

  • Modavations

    Every grade school kid, in the entire world,knows the JFK quote,”a rising sea raises all boats”.JFK used it a million times.Only Ultrax and fellow grads of the “Patrice Labumba”school of economics ,remain in the dark.Because JFK lowered taxes to prompt economic activity,Ultrax,by royal decree ,claims him persona no grata.How many pseudonyms do you post under,by the way.As a paid plant for “Move On”,you must do pretty well.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      It doesn’t matter if everyone in the world knows the quote. That’s NOT the issue Einstein.

      The issue is whether he used it to justify tax cuts for the rich. I’ve provided evidence he used it to defend federal infrastructure spending. Yet as I predicted, no matter how many times you’ve been corrected, you keep making the same claim with NO evidence… proving once again, you’re an idiot.

      As for MoveOn after my expose of their farce of a forum, they closed it down. 

      User name…. you’re seeing it… except a few othersI had to use  last spring  before I got around being banned.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        The Right’s main MO is to break things in a manner that benefits their constituency… the rich, but under the guise of helping everyone else. Irresponsible tax cuts for the rich are a perfect example.

        So after 30 years of the Right’s trickle down economics… why isn’t anything trickling down? Where’s Moda’s “rising tide”?

        The Right has an answer to that. THEY are not to blame for rigging the system to benefit the rich. Everyone ELSE is to blame because they are lazy to compete in this system.

        In this way the Right can have their cake and eat it. They bring home the bacon to their constituents, ruin the system for most everyone else, yet in their minds they remain totally blameless. Same with how they sabotaged the fiscal health of government. It’s not their irresponsible tax cuts made while we were SIX TRILLION in debt. It’s all a spending problem. Once again they are never to blame for their own actions.  

      • Gregg

        Alright, throw it out but JFK was who the perfessor said he was. You’ve got a lot of redefining to do, get busy and get back.
        Dismiss these:

        “It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax
        revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the
        long run is to cut the rates now … Cutting taxes now is not to incur a
        budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy
        which can bring a budget surplus.”

        “Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so
        raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a
        few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal
        government.”

        “In today’s economy, fiscal prudence and responsibility call for tax
        reduction even if it temporarily enlarges the federal deficit – why
        reducing taxes is the best way open to us to increase revenues.”

        “It is no contradiction – the most important single thing we can do
        to stimulate investment in today’s economy is to raise consumption by
        major reduction of individual income tax rates.”

        “Our tax system still siphons out of the private economy too large a
        share of personal and business purchasing power and reduces the
        incentive for risk, investment and effort – thereby aborting our
        recoveries and stifling our national growth rate.”

        “A tax cut means higher family income and higher business profits and
        a balanced federal budget. Every taxpayer and his family will have more
        money left over after taxes for a new car, a new home, new
        conveniences, education and investment. Every businessman can keep a
        higher percentage of his profits in his cash register or put it to work
        expanding or improving his business, and as the national income grows,
        the federal government will ultimately end up with more revenues.”

        “Our present tax system … exerts too heavy a drag on growth … It
        reduces the financial incentives for personal effort, investment, and
        risk-taking … The present tax load … distorts economic judgments and
        channels an undue amount of energy into efforts to avoid tax
        liabilities.”

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Ya ya, been though this time and time again.

          1: Your evading the central issue here which was NOT about tax cuts, but Moda’s claim JFK’s rising tide meant tax cuts for the rich. Forums ago I presented evidence JFK was referring to FEDERAL SPENDING on infrastructure… not tax cuts.  

          2: The Orwellian Right is bastardizing JFK’s words to imply he’d approve of ALL tax cuts when the so-called JFK tax cuts stopped at a very PROGRESSIVE 70%. Where’s the evidence he’d approve of   

          3: We’ve been though the revenue numbers and there’s NO evidence there was a revenue boom from the JFK, Reagan, or Bush2 tax cuts. What there IS plenty of evidence for is how the Orwellian Right tried to create a phony revenue boom by including revenue from 3 tax HIKES between 64 and 69. If the Right could make an honest case about tax cuts IT WOULD NOT HAVE TO LIE… yet this is what it ALWAYS does. You should know, you do it here all the time.  

          • Gregg

            No, dude the point is about JFK. He was a proponent of tax rate reductions as Modavations said. He clearly believed a rising tide lifts all boats as an analogy. The quotes show that.  

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I don’t see ANY of those quotes connecting the “rising tide” to tax cuts for the rich. THAT’S what Moda’s been claiming now for a few months. Now if you can find such a connection, give it to moda.

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            I won’t hold my breath for you to show that the so-called JFK tax cuts actually increased revenue. No, don’t bother with your Orwellian Right sites. Every one I’ve seen lies and includes revenue from the 3 1965-69 tax HIKES, as “proof” of such a revenue boom.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Here’s what Moda and Greg’s school of Orwellian Math teaches about tax cuts: 

      “A common concern among policy makers is that tax cuts will necessarily explode the deficit. Superficially, it seems obvious that by cutting taxes less revenue will flow into the government’s coffers. However, that was not the case in the 1960s. Between 1962 and 1969, revenues increased 6.4 percent a year compared with a growth of only 1.2 percent between 1952 and 1959.“ 

      source the GOP http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/longterm/longterm.htm 

      What this right wing source HAD TO KNOW was there were THREE TAX HIKES between 66 and 69: Tax Adjustment Act of 1966, the Revenue and Expenditure Control Act of 1968, and the Tax Reform Act of 1969. ALL brought in more revenue. Yet the site credits ALL the new revenue to the 64 tax cut. The Orwellian Right also did this with Reagan revenues. This goes beyond merely misleading… it’s pure deception.  

      I’ve made both Greg and Moda aware of these tax hikes and posted expected first year revenues. Yet here’s both Moda and Greg AGAIN claiming tax cuts bring in more revenue. They KNOW the truth yet are determined to deny it. They are one-variable thinkers unable or unwilling to credit all the other factors at work in an economy. For instance NBER once dubbed the late 60′s as a “war time expansion”. Reagan benefited from the collapse of oil prices in the early 80′s. Reagan was also a Keynesian deficit spender almost tripling the debt. 

      There’s no point debating those who place their precious delusions above reality.

  • Modavations

    Ever wonder why a propagandist like Ultrax can get 10 “likes”on one of his rants.Here’s how,Jeffe,NJ,TRFX,Terry,Jason A,Truth Squad and all the Trolls and Troll Wannabe’s

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      I think the bigger mystery is why you’d even get ONE “like”. Someone must feel sorry for you.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      BTW Einstein, it’s not as if just people who post here can “vote”. Anyone can, including perhaps hundreds of “lurkers”… an old term for those who visit forums and never post. In that light getting 10 votes is hardly much to write home about even if it seems to bug you. You’re fortunate there is no “dislike” button.

  • Modavations

    Unless you took economics at Patrice labumba University,here’s what they teach.The picture perfect ratio of debt to GDP would be 3%.When Professor Ultrax(Cum Laude P.L.Univ.)says,well Regan raised taxes 97billion times,it doesn’t mean anything.What counts is that the ratio settled at the picture perfect 3%.If Regan doubles the GDP,he can also double the debt(I use debt-deficit interchangeably).The ratio remains the picture perfect 3%.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Moda admits he’s an idiot: “I use debt-deficit interchangeably”

      People who have even the slightest idea what they’re talking about know there’s a crucial difference.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Pray tell, Einstein… You, as do I, rail against the immense waste of money we piss away on the debt. It was over 450 billion last year.Yet I’m in favor of using ALL the tools at our disposal to eliminate the deficit and pay down debt… and that includes new revenue AND spending cuts. Yet here you are defending a 3% deficit/debt to GDP ratio. And NO, Reagan NEVER had a 3% DEBT to GDP ratio. You’d KNOW this if you knew the difference between deficit and debt. But you seem to pride yourself on being ignorance.Either way… how do we pay down debt while increasing it? Are there any intelligent right wingers out there? Didn’t think so.

      • Modavations

        Reagan started with 4.2% and ended at the picture perfect 3%.And I thank you for not being hysterical today.We pay down the debt by growing the economy and getting tax receits poring in.How?lower the corporate tax rate,get rid of all the regs,open the oil fields,get free trade pacts all over the world,give poor kids vouchers so they get an education and become substantial tax payer,and I can go on all day.GAO says we spend 200 bill.per annum on duplicative programs.We spend 480 billion on welfare, 28billish goes to illegals welfare

        • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

          Before you make an even bigger ass of yourself, why don’t you find some 10 year old who can explain to you the difference between deficits, debt, and a surplus. But then since you pride yourself on remaining ignorant in this area, it won’t do any good.

  • Modavations

    The GDP is about 15trillion.Pres.Obama ran a deficit of 1.5 trillion.That’s 10% and a frggin disaster.

  • Modavations

    While the vast majority of the Bush Tax cut went to the poorest of Americans and the middle(33% to the poor and 6% rich),Ultrax says cancel it.If they take that entire 4 trillion(over 10 years) ,the debt to GDP ratio remain 6%.Twice as much as the norm.If you just rescind the part that goes to the upper bracket, it yields 70Billion per year.The GAO says there is 200Bill.per annum, wasted on duplicative programs.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Just what does “vast majority” even mean? People or dollars?

      Have a source for ANY of your meaningless claims?

      Didn’t think so.

      Either way, if we could not afford these tax cuts because we were in 2001 SIX TRILLION in debt… and the Clinton Surplus was vanishing, it doesn’t matter who the tax cuts went to. They were ALL fiscally irresponsible

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Moda, like all the Right wingers here are determined to evade the moral question of whether ANY party should steal from our kids to buy votes today?  It’s theft because we’re spending on ourselves money we don’t have and leaving the bill to our kids and grandkids who will have to pay MORE in taxes and get less in return.

  • Modavations

    Ultrax has gotten one thing correct.The Laissez faire types want to dismantle the govt.and reduce it 50%.We feel the “Big Brother-Welfare State”is ruinious.We feel it has blown up the black family and made a dependent class(Moynihan warned LBJ about the perverse outcomes of welfare).After 50 years and 5 trillion dollars,poverty remains as bad as ever.Why is it that the Democrats never changed course?Answer,they’ve made a racket out of Poverty.If there are no poor to ministrate,the party of the Social Worker ,goes the way of the Dodo.The business of the Dem.Party is keeping poor people ,poor.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      If you didn’t conflate SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and all the other safety net programs, you’d not be able to spout your nonsense.

      In the  FY11 budget about $280 billion of 3.8 TRILLION goes to welfare… not counting housing, UI, etc. That’s high because we’re in the Great GOP Recession. In 2007 those same programs cost about $170 billion.

      http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_budget_2011_4.html

      So in your mind… cutting about 7% of the budget is the same as cutting 50% of the budget? Of COURSE you do… you went to one of the best colleges!

  • Modavations

    Newt says he and his boys were responsible for the 4 balanced Fed.Budgets,during the Clinton years.

    • Gregg

      Clinton is praising him.

      • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

        I tracked it down… talk about damning with faint praise.

        But then coming from lil’ Greggy, what did we except… honesty?

        ROTF

        • Gregg
          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Look mom! Greggy can create an HTML link!Saying someone is thoughtful or is being rewarded for it, doesn’t mean Clinton agrees with Newt. Hell, I think Newt is brilliant, but I also believe he’s a sociopathic demagogue. So am I praising him? I read the NewsMax article and there’s nothing there I could find that can’t be taken both ways. And either way, it’s not as if I’m a Clinton fan. So it’s not as if I worry someone I respect is jumping ship or in bed with the enemy. 

          • Gregg

            Who said Clinton agreed with Newt?

          • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

            Who said calling Newt a thinker is “praise”?

      • PresidentOInk

        Nowadays, Clinton will squeal like a pig for anyone who greases him.

    • http://reinventing-america.blogspot.com/ ulTRAX

      Newt can say anything he wants, doesn’t make it true. It’s like one batter in a 10-0 game claiming their hit was the winning run. The numbers show Newt contributed but it was the Clinton Revenue steamroller that was mainly responsible. All the Owellian Right claims to the contrary have been blown out of the water.

      And in reality there were only 2 true on-budget surpluses… for a total of about $90 billion… and the GOP made sure they sabotaged it ASAP under Bush. So is Newt pissed at Bush for destroying the surplus?  Didn’t think so. Newt was trying to sabotage it as far back as 98.

    • Constapations

      Newt is an organ grinder’s chimp.

      He’ll dance to any tune Norquist cranks out for him.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 24, 2014
Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

California as Exhibit A for what happens when a state bans affirmative action in college admissions. We’ll look at race, college and California.

Apr 24, 2014
A Buddhist monk lights the funeral pyre of Nepalese mountaineer Ang Kaji Sherpa, killed in an avalanche on Mount Everest, during his funeral ceremony in Katmandu, Nepal, Monday, April 21, 2014.  (AP)

A Sherpa boycott on Everest after a deadly avalanche. We’ll look at climbing, culture, life, death and money at the top of the world.

RECENT
SHOWS
Apr 23, 2014
Attendees of the 2013 Argentina International Coaching Federation meet for networking and coaching training. (ICF)

The booming business of life coaches. Everybody seems to have one these days. Therapists are feeling the pinch. We look at the life coach craze.

 
Apr 23, 2014
In this Thursday, Dec. 20, 2012, file photo, Chet Kanojia, founder and CEO of Aereo, Inc., shows a tablet displaying his company's technology, in New York. Aereo is one of several startups created to deliver traditional media over the Internet without licensing agreements. (AP)

The Supreme Court looks at Aereo, the little startup that could cut your cable cord and up-end TV as we’ve known it. We look at the battle. Plus: a state ban on affirmative action in college admissions is upheld. We’ll examine the implications.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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Our Week In The Web: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Space moon oceans, Gabriel García Márquez and the problems with depressing weeks in the news. Also: important / unnecessary infographics that help explain everyone’s favorite 1980′s power ballad.

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Some Tools And Tricks For College Financial Aid
Thursday, Apr 17, 2014

Some helpful links and tools for navigating FAFSA and other college financial aid tools.

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