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China’s Price For Bailing Out the EU

The new China price. What China will ask for return for bailing out Europe, the EU.

European Union President Herman van Rompuy  speaks at the Central Party School in Beijing during his first visit to China. The agenda of the three-day visit in May 2011 included the Euro zone's debt crisis, trade and business agreements. Beijing is playing a critical role in buying troubled European debt. (AP)

European Union President Herman van Rompuy speaks at the Central Party School in Beijing during his first visit to China. The agenda of the three-day visit in May 2011 included the Euro zone's debt crisis, trade and business agreements. Beijing is playing a critical role in buying troubled European debt. (AP)

The global stakes and situation in Europe just get bigger and wilder. Last week, news of a mega-deal that would put a cork in the bottle of European financial chaos, contain the contagion. Now, Greece will go to the polls to vote on whether or not to take that pain. If the vote is no, who knows where we go.

Meanwhile, Europe’s first call after the deal was not to Washington, but to Beijing. They need Chinese cash – lots of it – to make this work. The US hasn’t got it. So here we are. Europe begging China for a bailout. And the planet’s power matrix turns.

This hour On Point: the China price for a bailout.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Alkman Granitsas, bureau chief for Greece and Cyprus for Dow Jones Newswires and contributor to the Wall Street Journal.

Pieter Bottelier, adjunct professor of China Studies at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University.

Arvind Subramanian, senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, author of  “Eclipse: Living in the Shadow of China’s Economic Dominance.” His op-ed in the New York Times is ”Why China Should Bail Out Europe.”

Clyde Prestowitz, is founder and President of the Economic Strategy Institute.

Highlights

The troubled economies of Europe have turned to a new economic backer: China. That represents a significant shift in the global power balance, experts contend.

“This would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. China is now in a position to exert enormous financial power,” said Pieter Bottelier, adjunct professor of China Studies at Johns Hopkins University.

But he cautioned that solving Europe’s economic woes won’t be easy. “There’s no question that China has the dough to solve these short-term financial problems, if there was a short-term financial problem. But it’s not. There is a profound structural design problem that only the Europeans can solve,” he said.

Bottelier also noted that a collapse of Europe as an export market for China would also be calamitous. China’s intentions should become clearer at the G-20 meeting coming up later this week in France.

“Europe is edging closer to the precipice,” said Arvind Subramanian, senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics. “It has to be China that comes to the rescue… They are the only country with the cash to do so.”

Subramanian said that China should aid Europe through the International Monetary Fund.

“This is less dramatic than what has been discussed….The Europeans have not tapped our their own resources, they have the ability to do more and they should,” noted Clyde Prestowitz, founder and President of the Economic Strategy Institute. “I don’t see China as the absolute key to saving Europe.”

From Tom’s Reading List

The New York Times “A day after European leaders unveiled their latest plan to save the euro, top officials opened talks with China in an effort to lure tens of billions of dollars in additional cash, giving China perhaps its biggest opportunity yet to exercise financial clout in the Western world. ”

Financial Times “Analysts said that in an environment of cautiously positive risk sentiment nervous investors had clung to their Japanese assets, preferring to sell dollar holdings into periods of inflated risk appetite on speculation that the US Federal Reserve will venture back down the path of quantitative easing.”

Project Syndicate “The debt crisis in Europe is no longer a European affair. Coupled with fears of a double-dip recession in the United States, the European debt crisis is dragging the global economy into another cycle of financial panic and economic recession.”

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  • CORY

    I’m terribly afraid of a future dominated by the Chinese.  I fear they have grim revenge in their hearts, after hundreds of years of exploitation and abuse.  They also seem to have a ruthless lack of sentimentality which also frightens me.  My fears may well be irrational, but here they are.

    • Drew You Too

      Your fears about China really aren’t that irrational, well at least no more irrational than fear itself.

      This isn’t directed towards you, just had to vent after popping by to check out tomorrow’s stories. Saw the Abortion story was over 600 comments and it made my heart sink. Below is what I’m terribly afraid of.

      I’m terribly afraid of a future dominated by fruitless discussion consisting of uninformed and self interested citizens. I’m even more terrified of a future dominated by diluted and misguided media coverage. I hope my fears prove to be irrational…

      • http://www.medicalmalpracticenj.com/practice-areas/wrongful-death Alexis

        I agree to you Drew. Chinese are great people with deep sense of culture and traditions and they have this sense for business. Yes, business. whatever the intention, just wait and see the next part. 

        • Zing

          Oh dear..I’m afraid, I’m afraid, I’m afraid, cluckity, cluckity, cluck!  Welcome to the hen house of  nanny state liberals.

          • Anonymous

            Well now you have just proved Drew’s point by posting an irrelevant comment which included a typical right wing sound byte.
            Try to comprehend what Drew was saying here. The fear was that people like yourself would be posting nonsense. You seem to be proving his point.

          • Modavations

            Please explain to us why Free Speech is the very,first amendment.If the Liberals did a rewrite,the 1st and 2nd amendment would be banned.Thought Police Bullies!!!!

          • Anonymous

            An under appreciated benefit of free speech is its ability to shine a light on ignorant and foolish positions.  That’s all he was saying.  Thank you for helping illustrate the point.

          • Modavations

            In a free society you can say what you will,you can be a rascist,you can be a polygamist and the FreeMen will defend your rights with their lives.

          • CORY

            One liner conservative nonsense.

          • Cburke55

            The self absorbed, pridefully ignorant, me-first, stereotypically infantile behavior of the right wing in this country is the best argument for a nanny state there is.

          • Anonymous

            You fool, it’s the so-called conservatives that have been ringing alarm bells about China’s role in military and economic matters.  Do you have any principles, or do you just react irrationally to anyone you typically don’t agree with?

  • antimatter

    In  democracy, our ‘elected’ officials would ask we the people first before selling our soul to a foreign power.  What right do they have?  This is not the will of the people on either side of the pond, and therefore not legitimate.  A new government by the people and for the people should dismiss any unfavorable debts incurred under the corporate regime we toil under.

    China demands respect and is unyielding, uncompromising, and irrational in all its dealings from top to bottom.  I know.  I work in it everyday.  They want people to bow down to their delusions of grandeur.

    • Zing

      And thank you for proving once again the profound intelligence of the founders.

      • Anonymous

        You apparently don’t understand that a popular democracy was viewed as mob rule by our founders.  It’s really the whole point of our constitutional republic.

  • Ameican Collapse

    The debt crisis in the U.S. is far worse than the debt crisis in Europe.

    At least the Euro is backed by some gold.

    The U.S. dollar isn’t backed by anything!  The for profit, privately owned, Federal Reserve Banking cartel has printed trillions of worthless dollars, in addition to guaranteeing trillions in derivatives for the benefit of Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and Bank of America.

    China is bailing out the Euro because they have lost faith and confidence in the US dollar.

    The days of the dollar being the world’s ‘reserve currency’ are over.

     

    • American Collapse

      ‘American Collapse’.   Excuse my typo.

    • JustSayin

      The US Dollar is backed by oil. All of the US actions and manipulations of the oil fields around the globe are to preserve the oil and keep it priced in the dollar.

      Its not a bad way to back a currency… almost equivalent to a unit of energy.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        True,  the US dollar is backed by other people’s oil.  Nothing else.

        However it is a bad way to back a currency, since it requires a huge military budget, 800 bases overseas, and lot of dead and maimed people from exotic lands.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

          In reality,  the value of the dollar is backed by pure military aggression.

          • Modavations

            No way.It’s our scientists,our inventors,our adventurers.Only half the country are limp wristed liberals,the rest of us are still men!!!!Same goes for the Italians.I’ll never forget when that Italian guy was about to get offed.He looked at the terrorists and said,”I’ll show you how a real man dies”.

      • Modavations

        Drill baby Drill.50,000 people go to work manana

        • nj

          Shill, baby, shill.

          Bubble economies ‘R’ us.

    • Anonymous

      If the dollar is not backed by anything then what are the Treasury Bonds for. Right now the US is in pretty good shape when compared to Europe. Even Paul Krugman is agreement with this assessment.
      When I read statements such as Federal Reserve Banking cartel has printed trillions of worthless dollars I just do not know what to say.  China has nowhere to go here, and their investment in our Treasury Bonds is a still a solid thing. Is the dollar loosing ground as the international currency, it seems this might be the case. However the US is still a strong investment and a safe secure place to put money. Unlike say Russia for instance.
      China is looking to expand it’s financial clout and the EU needs capital, right now that seems to be how this seems to be playing out.

      China is bailing out the Euro because they have lost faith and confidence in the US dollar. Wheres the proof of this?
      I don’t see China dumping it’s monetary investments and the other issues is they have more to lose if they do. China is expanding it’s clout on the financial market, not dumping US Treasury Bonds.

      The Erou is not backed up by gold. Where did you get this information from? Switzerland is not in the EU.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        Proof  of loss in confidence in the dollar??

        Despite all of the media reported problems in the EU,   the Euro has remained quite stable.   Why hasnt the value of the US dollar soared during all this disaster in Europe.   Cause the US is in worse shape than Europe.

        Treasuries are a temporary hold for lack of any other promissing investment.

        And the US stock market is a joke.  The Fed is is printing money for the bankers (investment bankers),  they turn around and pump up companies that are offshoring their operations creating another bubble that will eventually pop.

        • Anonymous

          I have one word for you. Treasury Bonds. If there was a huge loss in confidence then why is China and a host of other international players buying them?

          In case you have not noticed the entire world, except parts of Wyoming, is in a financial crisis. To say the US is doomed is a bit silly. We are in a decline, that’s for sure. How it all ends I don’t think anyone knows. But to say the Euro is doing well is really quite absurd when the EU is on the verge of a massive collapse. This would have a direct effect on all of us by the way. Stock up on canned goods and water.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            I have followed the Euro’s rise since its inception.  From 88 cents to the US dollar to $1.50.   It has been remarkably stable over the past few years, and when the phoney Stock Market gets a shot of Fed Res steroids the dollars drops immediately.  

            Chinese is quite adeptly balancing its monetary policy… and the US as well.  It has moved much of its holding out of US dollars, but still buys some treasuries to keep the dollar from collapsing…for now.

            Treasury bonds are nothing but a safe place to put money with little return… for now.    For many reasons,  the US is in much worse shape then Europe.

          • Modavations

            We are the best looking horse in a friggin Glue Factory.

        • Modavations

          You are so right.When the Euro was created it was worth 85ctish, in the dollars favor.God help us,if Jeffee is a school teacher

          • Four Elements

            He’s not: Can’t spell “its” and “lose”

      • Modavations

        There is only one person who is consistently more wrong then Jeffe.That would be Herr Krugman(we need to spend more.Give me more Tarp,More stimulus,double the stimulus,triple the stimulus.457 bill.interest payments this year,who cares!!!!)We are rapidly approaching a point where foreigners won’t buy are bonds.The only entity buying our bonds will be our own govt..The iou’s in S.Sec. arn’t worth the paper they are printed on.They can not be sold in the public markets.You say our economy is strong.That’s like saying our horse ,is the best looking horse at the frigging Glue Fcatory.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        You have said a mouthful and much of it is flawed, starting with your first sentence.  And Paul Krugman is over his head with his Keynesian rhetoric.  That party is over.

        And a  currency is not backed by Treasury Bonds,  it is backed by precious metals, raw military expansionism, or the productivity and integrity of its people.    Right now, the US dollar is an IOU on a incredibly huge national debt which is kept at bay at the end of a gun. 

        • Four Elements

          I like it – AND I clicked the Like button

    • Corythatcher

      Two small points of difference amongst a general agreement…

      1.  Our debt crisis is worse because of our political and cultural inability to act in our own long term self interest.

      2.  China is “helping” Europe because it makes them their “Daddy” like they are rapidly becoming our “Daddy”.  They are intent on world domination without ever firing a shot.  It is the new rage, don’t you know!

      • Tina

        And, I think I remember that Osama Bin Laden said that he would break America by very simply bankrupting us.  

    • Dave in CT

      oh but that Ron Paul and those like minded on economics are such nuts!

      Unsound money! Flat Screens! Unsound money! McMansions! Unsound money! Hummers! Unsound Money…hey what’ China doing here……

  • JustSayin

    Once the EU is as indebted to China as the US, they will have to bow to the same concessions in their economies as we have. That’s the power. To externally control their markets and hence their government…like they have done in the U.S. In a sense the U.S.A. is just another province of China, and now the E.U. will join us in servitude.

    IMO Wall St. will do everything in its power to keep China powerful and profitable. To do that they use a portion of that profit to control congress, and then congress is protecting China…. and on and on it goes.

    But hey I remember when the US was the largest creditor nation and did this to other countries.  So… We will get about 300 years of constant decline until there is no resources left to exploit, or there is another global war to clear the books.

    Human nature… only the technology is changing… but people are remarkably consistent. The top 5% of China will be doing battle with each other with the bottom 95% a drones.  Its a game the rich like to play.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    China will ask more investment from Europe, like what they did to America.

    China will ask more modern military equipment or blue prints for modern technology. Some modern achievement are now use in Toys. Miniature choppers that was impossible to built before, RC Cars that can drive on walls,solar powered toys and much more.

    China already pumping oil in the Spratly Islands according to the Philippine government. The harassment and killing of Vietnamese since the dispute erupted showed the true color of China’s intention in the South China Sea. Oil!!! to move their 21st century industrial revolution.

    “China intention is unknown which is dangerous”.

  • Anonymous

    Efficiency and efficacy are key factors to success.
    Contrast the gridlock of our Tea Party Tyranny, which refuses to acknowledge the huge role that government has played in the development of technology and advancement of US science and technology, with the Chinese who have 5 plans augmented by 10 and 20 year plans on various issues.

    Democracy used to work in stark contrast to the failures of communism. I would never wish for America to become communist or socialist but today’s economic facts are compelling: with all of its issues, China is eating our lunch and jobs and now setting terms.

    Yes China has major challenges, risks and liabilities, but if the US is to prosper, we cannot expect an economic miracle to appear from the ashes of 3 decades of Reaganomics AKA Voodoo economics which has undermined our middle class.

    At what point do we start planning and implementing an offensive and defensive economic strategy with teeth? Without one, we are vulnerable to the whims of external powers like China, Multinational Corporations and Wall Street. ;^)

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

      At what point do we start planning and implementing an offensive and defensive economic strategy with teeth?

      After the collapse.

    • Tina

      MadMark, I was talking around something similar the other day when I asked whether there were any U.S. economists out there who were putting together economic models that would show how the USA could have a sustainably equitable society.  As you point out, we have sparring political parties rather than a government that is using its powers and knowledge to posit strategies (let’s say, 5 plans even!) that would help us!  The trouble is, the corporate backers of our elected officials are playing in that Capitalist playing field that is supra-national:  the players really have no allegiance to the USA, just to maximum profit.  

  • Corythatcher

    The doctrine of 19th and 20th century nationalism would suggest a military confrontation with China now, while we still have a sizable military advantage.  We then recreate them in our image (Japan, Germany, South Korea) and make them our allies.  Problem is, I don’t think our people have the 19th/20th century stomach to absorb several hundred thousand casualties it would require to squash the Chinese.  We may be destined to slavery at the conclusion of a non-violent war of globalization.

  • Modavations

    Go check out the Mad Max sequel.We’d all have Mohawks.The next war is nuclear

  • Modavations

    Treasury Bonds.Are you guys for real.We’re the best looking horse in a friggin Glue Factory,that’s all

  • Yar

    What is debt?  Is it simply a promise to pay tomorrow for yesterday’s expenses?  Not quite, we pay tomorrow because of the consequences the following day from not paying.  Debt is not past promises, it is future consequences.  Family debt is easy to understand, we have eviction, bankruptcy, broken kneecaps, or more severe consequences.
      
    National debt seems more complicated, but in reality their is no such thing as a national debt.  Economics follows the laws of thermodynamics.  If what you observe doesn’t seem to fit these laws of energy flow then your perspective is distorted.  Instead of trying to fit money into the center of an economy, much like Aristotle tried to explain an earth centered universe, the basic unit of economics is energy.  Money is not a standardized value like a calorie or BTU, but a relative scale that changes over time, sometimes irrationally.  National debt is more of an accounting tactic that manages the rate of change in the value of money.  Debt is eventually expressed in a deflated currency, or as inflation.  This works until money collapses, and gets reset as a new poker game with new chips.  Sometimes we use gold, or shells, or wheat, or oil as chips.  They don’t fundamentally change the nature of the game, although they may change the rate of expansion. 
     
    What has China to gain by backing Europe’s debt?  They keep the current game going, they keep their population peaceful, they manage inflation over the short term,  they stay in power.  Will Europe, the US or any debtor nation ever give China the equivalent in human energy they have given us over the past three decades?  Not likely, if true accounting took place we have already defaulted on our obligations, we may start a new poker game or change the rules of this one, but we will not peacefully be slaves to China, or anyone else. 
    Greece is saying the same with protests and strikes.  We should be wary if or when they declare default because it is likely to spread across the globe.  
    Default often involves violence, history built a year of Jubilee into the calendar, I suspect as a means to reset the poker game and prevent the cycle of violence.  It seems like every fifty years is about as long as any international poker game can last. 

    • Modavations

      Watch gold.If it crosses 2200.00 I’d worry

    • JustSayin

      China was living in squalid isolationism, abject poverty, and feudal warfare for most of its  existence, broke into the modern world through fear of their own ignorance.

      The books are not balanced by even a tiny bit.  Its not just the power of human labor, but American and other free nations power of intellect, and the social structures to power those incredible advances in medicine, technology, physics, etc. 

      China bypassed ALL the hard work of civil society and the enormous efforts in education and governance to get everything they have.

      Be it sold or stolen. They are on the ultimate free ride…all they have contributed to the world is cheap slave labor and lots of it.

       

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        Their contribution of gunpowder certainly worked against them for a while, but as it plays out, they really didn’t need it to conquer the world.

      • Yar

        Wow, that sounds just like an explanation of bringing Africans to America to tend our plantations, we took them out of tribal poverty and gave them a taste of civilization. They got a free ride?  They are the sweat that built what we call civilization, what arrogance!

        • JustSayin

          Wow, did you guys ever read that wrong!

          The point is that there is a cost of creating societies that nurture art, science, etc. Remember WW-1, WW-2?  Europe and North America evolved over time, and China skipped over the era of social stability and the cost of nurturing creative sciences in lieu of nearly constant civil war, totalitarianism, communism, and now some amalgam of communism and capitalism to create a totalitarian slave state that is manufacturing the creative talents of the free world.

          I’m sorry if you think China has a free society, but I don’t see it that way. They are a slave labor manufacturer for the west. It is the current reality of the world right now…. Of course one has to leave their emotions at the door to see rationally.

          • Dave in CT

            That’s exactly why the notion of “free-trade” is such a lie with a country like that. There is no Fair in the free, as we have payed so much more and they so little into what they offer.

            But our traders and financial markets who just make $ of the movements and could care less over the substance or the consequences.

            Thats what I mean when I defend markets, and truly free/fair markets, and reject when people blame free markets for what un-free markets have done.

          • Yar

            Our country was built on slave labor, even today we are slaves to an employer based healthcare system, credit dominated banking system, and a government subsidized food delivery system.  Economic slavery where many individuals are only valued as production units, where retirement is a false promise, savings evaporate and we have little energy at the end of the day to raise our children. 
            I am not saying China has it right, I am trying to pull off our own rose colored glasses.  The major mistake we make today is wasting the energy of our youth, we are failing to invest in the next generation.  That is a fatal flaw in our market dominated economy.  Capitalism exists on top of a social structure, it can’t replace it.  China has a society that is thousands of years old, granted, violence has occurred during that time, we are a mere two hundred years old and think we know how to solve the world’s problems.  We have our own history of violence.  One thing that can be said about the Chinese people, they know how to work.

          • JustSayin

            If I am reading you correctly. I should not acknowledge the totalitarian slave economy of China because America had slavery in its past? 

            What other preconditions should I put on my observations of reality because of liberal guilt?

            My rose colored glasses are off. In fact I never owned a pair.

            Americas past of slavery has nothing to do with China’s decision to replicate it. China’s internal policy is all of its own making, just as America’s was, and I’m not going to encumber my observations of the world based on emotional relics of our past. That’s a liberal thing.

            I have traveled across the globe, and I cannot call Americans slaves , sorry that hyperbole doesn’t equate to most of the world. At worst we are in financial servitude, but even that is relative to social strata and nationality.

            But I digress…The subject of today’s program was China and the EU. 

            “… One thing that can be said about the Chinese people, they know how to work.” 

            Now who is wearing the rose colored glasses of western arrogance?

          • Yar

            “If I am reading you correctly. I should not acknowledge the totalitarian slave economy of China because America had slavery in its past?  ”

            The idea that China had or has a free ride is what offended my sense of truth.  They are a civil society, their population cares deeply about their children, they work hard and save much of their resources for the next generation.  I don’t like painting the world as an us against them.  It is not black and white, we have plenty of our own problems.

            I am also talking about our crony capitalism today, it is part of our current totalitarian society here in the US, not about the past, we can learn from the past if we choose to look at it.  We think we are peering into the future as we back through life looking at the past while  making our next tentative step.  

            The low wage worker is who is builds every society, maybe he works at the end of a whip, or is held to his labor by the economics of his surroundings,  his of her labor is what gives value to money.  

            In a civil society one can earn enough during their productive years to raise the next generation and care for themselves in retirement.  Today in America, both are lies for a majority of citizens.  We are losing or civility when we ignore our children, when we take the retirement investments of our workers and gamble them away, we are destroying what was once called a democracy.  
            My desire, my effort in participating in this discussion is to encourage everyone to demand a living wage, to participate in democracy, to counter the distortion money plays in politics.

      • Pffefer

        So China got where it is today not through hard work but what? American generosity? Geez, the 200-dollar Nike sneakers you bought, only about $10 stay in China. How many sneakers and shirts they had to produce to get them where they are today? If this is not hard work I don’t know what is. We know many Americans are very ignorant. But some Americans can be so damn snobbish to the degree that they need to slapped in the face.

      • Tina

        And we bought into it by falling for the Doctrine of Cheap Goods.  We could have held out and saved for the more expensive American version of various products, but we fell for feeling like we were “rich”.  In fact, we were so invested in feeling “rich” that we bought a lot of this cheap stuff by using credit cards!  Then we bought McMansions which are at least three times larger than the space needed by a happy family.  

        • Dave in CT

          Giant Sucking Sound.  Perot tried to warn us, but we were arrogant, greedy materialists following the globalization sham with all its shiny objects…..

          • Modavations

            Dave,we produce 25% of everything made on the planet.When our economy is working, we have the most massive of markets.We only export 8%ish.

      • Dave in CT

        When are we going to pull our pants up?

        • JustSayin

          Never. Wall St. likes how it feels.

          • Dave in CT

            Exactly. They stay warm from the friction of the rest of us getting screwed.

            As do/will all these banking moguls re-designing the world as we speak with all the chaos.

            Wall St will be happy to finance any changes, regardless of substance and regardless of long-term US interest.

            Rule of law baby.  We need Greenwald and Black on every week during all this chaos.

            Its so sad we don’t have any leadership figures on these issues to coalesce around and demand a different vision than the status quo 2 parties.

            I just don’t the unfocused on purpose OWS thing is going to be pragmatic enough to influence things.

            We need  specific, broadly supported platform, that reflects Greenwald/Black concerns, that candidates can pledge to, and that voters can put into power in 2012.  2012 or bust it seems.

  • Tina

    We’ve brought on such bad karma!  We SHOULD have insisted that China give Tibet its freedom before we ever started trading with China. We SHOULD have done the right thing; but we didn’t.  

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      What in this case is the right thing?  We heard many Americans complaining about what we did in Libya, and the Libyans don’t have nuclear weapons.  What can we do with regard to Tibet, especially since the Tibetans aren’t doing anything for themselves at the moment?

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

        The Tibetans do not have oil reserves.

  • William

    At some point China will start to export it’s poor people to Europe, USA and the rest of the world. They will get visa’s and set up factories here with cheap imported Chinese labor. We won’t have much of a say since our government, like the EU has been bought off by China.

    • Pffefer

      Such an intelligent comment. I am rolling my eyes. Tsk tsk tsk.

  • BHA in Vermont

    Apparently a plurality of Greeks haven’t thought that they should pay their taxes for quite some time either. I don’t suppose that would have anything to do with the situation in which they now find themselves.

    If Greece has been living high on the Credit Card and don’t want to pay the piper now that they have tilted beyond their ability to stay afloat, it might be time to cut them loose.

    • http://abellia.myopenid.com/ Andrew

      You’re right that perhaps taxation should be better enforced in Greece, but this isn’t the crux of the problem: read here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    So wait, China has vast currency reserves. Most of these reserves are in the form of US treasury bonds. If China bails out the EU to the tune of billions of dollars in bonds does that mean China will be buying EU bonds with US treasury bonds?

    Also if China and other developing nations such as India or Brazil do actually decide to help bail out the EU, does this not then further global economic and possibly political integration?

  • http://www.facebook.com/NewtonsBob Bob Kavanagh

    And why do so many still believe that our capitalist leaders know what they are doing?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      The current president of Greece is an old-fashioned socialist.  Who else knows anything?

    • Dave in CT

      Our problem is we a sliding into a global, state-capitalism model. Probably fascism as it settles out.  One-world government, Centrally-run and managed marketplace.  You will absolutely be a cog in the wheel. AND NO TURNING BACK. ONCE THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT SHUTS DOWN, ITS OVER.

      We need to hunker down, isolationist if you will, get our sh!t together self-reliantly as a country, and we can re-emerge later.

      • Modavations

        China is a fascist state.The economy is free and the Mandarins own the bosses.

    • Dave in CT

      What capitalist leaders?

      You mean our crony capitalism and central bank global deal making, non-democratic, unaccountable financial elite?

      Participatory, free-market economics in the US would be a 180 degree turn.

      • Modavations

        Please take note of the Corzine debacle.$600 mill.seems to have dissappeared(embezzeled?).Sort of like Solyendra

        • Dave in CT

          Assolutamente!

    • Modavations

      Capitalists!!!!!What are you talking about.These guys have no experience with business.All they know is taking tax payer money and giving it to their constsituents.This is called vote buying.Those who pick the pockets of Peter to pay Paul,can always depend on Paul.I think J.Kerry had a Chocolate Chip cookie stand.B.Frank hasn’t done a goddamn thing in his whole life, except ruin Fannie Mae and consequently,the world.Tierney’s wife is a crook and about to get indicted again.Menino is a wanna be dictator.Lynch was a Union Thug.Pleeeeease!!!!!!!!!

  • TFRX

    “World, hold onto your hat.”

    It was coming soon enough, this show about China talking about the US.

    The problem with the Pain Caucus is that too many of our mainstream media have convinced themselves that economic pain equals good things happening, and that “austerity” is the same thing and needed here as well as in Greece.

    What a real economist said on this show* sometime in the last month still holds: Adding 1/2% to the GDP will do more for the economy now than cutting hundreds of billions a decade in the future.

    At this point in the business cycle we are telling dehydrated people wandering a desert that their biggest concern is there are no porta-potties to piss in.

    (*I don’t remember who she was.)

  • http://abellia.myopenid.com/ Andrew

    For crying out loud, just print some Euros and give them to Greece (and Italy…).  It’s not like Euros are oil you have to dig out of the ground.  Ask the banks to take a haircut as well.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      You have heard of inflation, right?

      • http://abellia.myopenid.com/ Andrew

        Yes.  But this is like worrying about a bruise from a tourniquet after you’ve ripped an artery.

        Anyway, inflation isn’t all bad (lowers debt obligations) and it is pretty unlikely given the demand gap.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          Europeans won’t be pleased by inflation, even if it made any sense.  Recall the period between the two world wars.  The Germans, especially, are allergic to inflation.  And rightly so, since it destroys an economy.

          • http://abellia.myopenid.com/ Andrew

            Again, the evidence that this will cause inflation in a demand gap is…none.  What does it hurt to try?  Between the wars is a bad example for many reasons.  Inflation occurred then for many reasons having nothing to do with simply printing money.

            When money went out of the economy by the enormous trade deficit, did people scream “aghhh!  deflation!”  No.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            All right, look at Central American nations or Zimbabwe.  They also understand what’s wrong with inflation.

          • http://abellia.myopenid.com/ Andrew

            Again, bad examples.  When the state fails, the currency becomes worthless.  Hyperinflation is a very different animal from inflation.

  • Matt

    Roughly 55 countries have GDP growth rates higher than 6%
    per annum; among them some of the world’s biggest economies like Brazil, Indonesia,
    India,
    etc. Why go to China
    alone? Why not get these healthy economies as a group to refinance the IMF,
    whose original design it was, after all, to help out just such economies as the
    Greek, Italian, Spanish, etc.?

  • Akfaka

    A bit over a century ago, the arrogant Europeans came to China, bullied the Chinese, raped the land and robbed the people. In some cases, the Chinese were banned from certain European stole lands, even today in this country the Chinese are still viewed with stereotype as the “yellow little men”, second class human beings. Now the “yellow little men” has grown up as the green giant full of greens dollars, they shamelessly come to beg for help. I hope the Chinese Government never yield to this request, let the “superior” European race to taste its own superior
    medicine.   

  • Pffefer

    Mr. Subramanian is blowing things way out of proportion. China is still a very fragile power, a third world developing nation which is nowhere near achieving the status of the US. The problem with the western narrative of China is that it is extremely black and white: China is either going to take over the world or it is going to crash and burn.

    I agree China should contribute bailing out Europe, but China alone can’t save Europe.

  • Carlo

    It is quite ironic that Europe, with it’s extremely worker friendly culture is going to China, with the opposite image, for help.  It can be argued that Europe’s problems are actually caused by it’s labor policies, and that China’s strength the result of it’s policies.  Sort of like the ultra liberal kid at Harvard as his industrialist / capitalist family pays his expenses.

    • TFRX

      What do you mean “Ironically, Europe’s problems are actually caused by its labor policies”?

      What do Mexico’s labor policies look like? Because we can tour the abandoned factories built in Mexico in the ’90s, which were vacated in favor of China, to reemphasize the point that a totalitarian society with endless bodies to throw into the maw, and the ability to consign everyone they don’t give a crap about to abject poverty, is going to win that game.

      • Modavations

        Are you kidding.Mexico is booming.Twice as vibrant as the USA.I have 40 years of Mexican business dealings.The Laissez Faire guys have been running the show since 2000.Don’t give me the drug lament.The cartels are supplying the druggies of the USA and it’s a shame.Bogota used to be trashed.They beat the druggies and Farc and it’s booming.So is Lima

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    China’s growth and power is based on an authoritarian system.  Since when have they ever cared about what we have to say on human rights?  They listen politely and then do exactly what they want to do.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

      What hubris for the USA to dictate human rights to anyone.  

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Do you think that the Chinese have a better understanding of the subject?

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

          The Chinese have long been involved with the survival of their own people, and defending their country from invaders.

          The US has been engaged in military adventurism, causing death and destruction in other people’s lands.   They flatten cities and send in the world bank loan sharks and Halliburton to rebuild.  All done with dollars off a printing press. 

          The rest of the world is not buying this  human rights charade, nor the promise of freedom and democracy.   

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            The Libyans would disagree with you.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            What Libyans are YOU talking about ??  What faction or tribe???  Libyans had a very high standard or living and education. 
            You clearly do not understand what transpired in Libya. Their country is a now in wreck and their resources are about to be plundered.  Human rights???  

          • Modavations

            Humankind is an amoeba.The pseudopod stretches out eanvelopes it’s prey and assimilates.Ask Alexander the Great.China has also hsd it’s empires.It’s not the banks,it’s human nature.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

            And just like amoeba that expand excessively, they succumb to their own waste and die.

          • Modavations

            Empires ebb,empires flow.As an Italian, you know the story of Rome.

          • Modavations

            That would be KBR(Kellogg,Brown and Root).It’s owned by the heirs of the Lady Byrd Johnson family

          • your listener

            Well put, thanks!

        • your listener

          I think you need to read up more Chinese history, and realizing China’s old Empires are different from Rome and others.  They didn’t often times use arms or invasions, they had a system called “tribute”, sort of like you scratch your back, I scratch yours systems.    Almost like todays trading to some extend.

          And this “Big Bad Wolf” image of China is the result of western brainwash, not saying China is better or worse, but China is really not worse than most countries in the world, look at how our law enforcers treated OWS protesters??  

          Having said that, I’m not standing up for China, I’m just providing some perspective here, so people won’t look at things like a frog from a deep well.  China is just too big to be ignored, that’s all…

        • your listener

          Seriously, I would worry more about China’s natural resource and energy consumption than the decry of human right from western disproportional reports.  

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Or perhaps you think that the Europeans have a superior position to ours.  Europe, the continent as a whole that either goes on wars of conquest or depends on us to defend them.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

          You are speaking of Great Britain of course that needed defending.

          Everything else including of the Napoleanic Wars was instigated by international bankers.  Which actually was the basis of Greece’s current problems.

          • Modavations

            I don’t believe that.The Bankers also,have to live in the worlds they create.The only walled compounds I ever saw were in Barcelona(Franco days)Read the Prince,by Machievelli.It basically says you attract more bees with honey.

        • Modavations

          We’re the Police State.Go to any European Capital.Everyone’s walking around with a beer in their hand.And believe it or not,they’re all smiling

      • Modavations

        Look at our friggin ghettos.They are a disgrace and exclusively the purview,of the Democrat Party

    • Pffefer

      Would you, as proud and patriotic Americans, give a rat’s ass about what others preach to you on anything?? If not, why would you and should you expect the Chinese or anyone else listen to whatever you have to say?

      Plus, the US lecturing China on human rights is such a laughable idea. When the US stops its double stands on human rights (no matter what US allies do the US will always shield them from criticism or UN sanctions), the US will truly be trusted to lead. Until that happens, it is making the US look like nothing but a nagging hypocrite.

  • Aefister

    Ironic – When the western economy looks in the mirror what does it see? CHINA!

  • jim

    “China will not have any discount or privilege for buying our bonds”… what is this european guy smoking? Look Europe.. get your racist, patronizing attitude out… otherwise, you will face armageddon. China today is not the China of yesterday. Just get that across your ignorant mind.

  • Pffefer

    The risk for China is that China will get nothing in return, not even good will. Like the American taxpayers, China has become the hostage of a “too big to fail” phenomenon; simply because China can’t afford not to save Europe (because it will be detrimental to China’s economy), China has to help out no matter what the outcome is going to be. I have a bad feeling that China is going to lose anyway. The caller “Bo” is correct, the US-led western world will still be very much on China’s throat, trying to contain, undermine this perceived “threat”. China has been getting bad rap no matter what it does. China just can’t win.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Given the way that they try to win, let’s hope that the can’t.

      • Pffefer

        Exactly how is China trying to win, in your opinion? Sure, if they are not doing it in the American way, they have to be wrong, right?

        China will never win as long it is remains non-Caucasian, non-western, non-democratic and above all, non-compliant to American/western demands and bullying. Period.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          It’s trying to win by focusing on making some of its people rich, while denying all of them political freedom.  That’s an old tradeoff, and I hope it fails anywhere that it’s tried.

        • Anonymous

          Look, I understand and to a large extent, agree with your point that China gets the wrong end of the public opinion via irrational fear-mongering based on ignorance and often racism, but you’re overstating your point. It’s not solely the US-led west that has such deep antipathy towards China. Often, it’s China’s closest non-western neighbors who have the biggest complaints that have little to do with their foreign policy or human rights issues and are based more on the business/development fields. And there are many just reasons for this which are not irrational. It’s not like the “Made in China” label has even marginally better approval ratings and enjoy better safety perceptions in, say, Seoul or Tokyo. And it’s not like investors, private enterprises and venture capitalists from near-by abroad have not faced high risk with issues like the proverbial goalposts being moved often. 

    • Tina

      China could CHOOSE to stop, and reverse, its policies in Tibet!  But does it; no!

      • Modavations

        Free Tibet.How ’bout freeing your black chattel.What’s the capital of Tibet.

        • Anonymous

          Lhasa.

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    China’s so over-invested in the US that they have to look out for us in the US. We owe them so much that they can’t threaten to call in their loans, or we go belly up and there goes there’s money and their economy, and if they try to crack the whip the US threaten to play hardball with repayment and there goes their money and economy.  That’s going to be the same issue with Europe.

    As far as human rights, if the US and EU don’t take a stand there, no matter what the cost, what does that say about us as the human race, let alone as nations?  The communist regime learns with carrots, not sticks.  They learned with Tienanmen that it was about people, not politics. People wanted to live “little ‘D’” democratically, and have the opportunity to chose how the lived in their day to day personal and economic lives.  They got that and look what happened? The country boomed.  If the China is shown that giving into the human rights issues will be a boon to them, those gates will open for them, as well as new ones.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Didn’t they learn from Tienamen that so long as they make some of them wealthy, the people don’t matter?

      • Scott B, Jamestown NY

        I think they learned that if you keep most of the the people (at least educated and employable people) happy within their own lives, that you don’t end up with another Tienamen and the world opens up for China. 

        • Modavations

          I used to run around with a Chinese girl.She had to pay the govt(chinese side)$100,00.00 reimbursement for her college costs.She was a Mandarin

    • Drew You Too

      Great comment!

    • JustSayin

      Its the old saying: If you owe the most to the bank, you own the bank.

      • TFRX

        Can I like this more than once?

    • Pffefer

      The US and EU taking a stand on human rights? Mhwaahhaaa! Where was the US when its ally the Saudis invaded Bahrain recently during the Arab Spring? Where the American condemnation? Hypocrisy knows no bounds…

  • Dave in CT

    Don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.

    Today you laugh at talk of Liberty, Sovereignty. Within 10 yrs you’ll be crying and asking what did we do (should be already, but so many are so cynical and fatalistic and ignorant)?

    We’ve sold our souls to the devil with our consumer materialism and the debt that supports it.

    Is all this really necessary?

    To feed, clothe and house America, do we really need to give everything away?

    You all know, the only people who really benefit from all this false dependency, global crap, are the debt issuers and traders who get rich of all the capital flows and power games.

    Food, clothing and housing and basic health care?  We can’t do that here? Are you kidding?

    Until we make different individual decisions and value judgements, and stand up for our sovereignty, we will just be the collective, dependent mass that will continued to be ruled by an elite that commits us to paths we have absolutely no say in, or control over.

    Stop the Globalization Charade!  Tom came to the realization during a show last month or so, where he called it a spade.

    Do you guys not think the US can materially support itself for a basic, decent life?

    • Corythatcher

      Great comment, thoughts.

  • Michiganjf

    First let me say I don’t think it’s a bad thing that so much of the world is rising economically with the demise in power of the west…

    That said, China’s new leverage in the world illustrates, once again, just how stupid and short-sighted it was of corporations and the wealthy to trash western economies (especially the U.S.) in order to fund an Asian expansion.

    They were banking on the center of the world’s future population growth (Asia) as an emerging market… now they will ultimately be shut out in lieu of new, EMERGING  indusrial entities; meanwhile they’ve killed the goose that laid the golden egg in the west.

    … and to boot, the world doesn’t have enough resources to ever again duplicate the kind of consumer society which was recently destroyed in the west… WE WERE IT in terms of the ULTIMATE CONSUMER SOCIETY, and we were sacrificedso the wealthy could floow their short-sighted greed.

    • Michiganjf

      correction:

      “… could follow their short-sighted greed.”

    • Anonymous

      They kept slaughtering the milk cows for their extravegant lifestyles. Eventually there’s not enough milk to feed the children…

    • Pffefer

      I couldn’t help laughing. Western corporations and wealthy funded Asian expansion? They came to Asia to maximize their profits and make money like all good capitalists would do. Asian economy grew because the Asians worked their butt off, making pennies while western corporations raking in the big chunks of the profits. You were sacrificed? How? Cheap consumer products manufactured in Asia by mostly western companies enabled you to be the consumer society you are today. Imagine if everything were made in the US with labor and unions demanding big bucks, most Americans wouldn’t be able to afford to buy anything!

      • Michiganjf

        Well genius, we were a massive consumer society when everything was made in Europe in the nineteenth century, then when it was made in America in the twentieth, then when it was made in Japan, now when everything is made in China.

        If massive outsourcing and economic expansion by western capitalists hadn’t been made in the last 25 years, China would never have made the transition to private enterprise, so YES, it was the short-sightedness and greed of corporations and the wealthy who were willing to burn western economies to ashes to fund their Asian expansion.

        … and I didn’t say I personally was “sacrificed…” try reading how I began the last post.

        • Michiganjf

          To clarify:

          “we were a massive consumer society when everything was made in Europe in the nineteenth century, then when it was made in America in the twentieth, then when it was made in Japan, now when everything is made in China.”

             This indicates that the assertion we could only have become a massive consumer society AFTER cheap goods from China became available is ABSURD on its face!

           

      • Anonymous

        That’s one way to look at it. But what you are forgetting is that in China they have what amounts to indentured servitude in a lot of factories. What you seem to be saying we should join this race to the bottom. Of course you then go on to blame unions, typical right wing rhetoric with no substance.

  • Anonymous

    Declaring China to be a market economy is a accurate as Mississippi’s proposed fertilized egg personhood.

  • Dave in CT

    But the Flat screens are worth subservience!!!

    • JustSayin

      I’ve heard good things. I hope to own one someday…after my Mexican tube TV wears out.

      If the consumer is the vote for subservience, then you have your answer.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

        I still use my old cell phone and a 5 year old flat screen tv.

      • Modavations

        They never break.You’ll get bored first.The Maytag Man is extinct

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1816544 Dan Trindade

    I think one of the problems with western views on China and the current state of the world in general is the perception that it is still the early 90s and that the world is dominated politically and economically by a single super power and its friends with everyone else clamoring for the scraps. Instead we are in a situation much closer to the world Pre-World War 1, with many “Great Powers” vying for prominence, influence, and resources. Until Western nations begin to deal with developing nations such as the BRICs and in particular China as, if not equals, then fellow global powers, they will only continue to sow the seeds of their own downfall.

    • Anonymous

      Indeed and I really don’t understand why there’s such a fear here in the US of a multipolar world especially in the middle and far east. It’d alleviate a great deal of our worst headaches. So while we lecture to the rest of the world that they need to do much more, we’re fearful and begin berate the rest of the world when they do want to do more. Typical American schizophrenia.

      Also, while I myself have been arguing for the better part of a decade that the dynamics of the far east is the pre-WWI as you stated, the major difference is that China is no longer “sick man of Asia,” India is force, Japan is less bellicose and aggressive and aging rapidly and Korea (half of it at least) has opened up to the outside world and enjoys significant soft and hard power. 

  • Dave in CT

    The Greek referendum thing looks like the trigger for huge things to happen, like so much talked about on today’s show really quick.

    I really wish Americans were more on the same page, not so divided, and clear on the basic elements of what America means, as all this unfolds, and highly consequential actions are taken, likely without our input.

    Our level of division and confusion over our American identity is a picture perfect situation for any outside party looking to gain from us during times of chaos.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      Right on the money.

  • Charles A. Bowsher

    99 comments up before I posted this. What does that make one think of? Hmmmm…it’s coming to me, nope, lost it. Anyway, We and our trade policies that don’t force China to recognize the “true cost” (disregard for human rights, the environment and our resources) of their manufacturing model are to blame for their blossoming power and ultimate control of the world’s economy and it’s natural resources. Until we force them to toe the line on human rights, natural resources management and protection they will always win. It’s why “the South” endured for so long. We don’t have to buy ”Made in China”. If we boycott them for one month they will sit up and take notice. We on our part need to learn from their devotion to 100 year and 500 year planning time horizons.

    • Corythatcher

      We may no longer be able to force them to do anything.  I propose modified isolationism. 

    • Bswv

      Mattre of fact:L Export to USA represents only  a litle ovet 10% of $1,5 TILLION. EU is the largest trandong partner with a bit more than 20%. In addition to which So America, SE asia HK, africa  and Japan, etc. America, stop. boycotting ‘made in China’ for one month will hurt , but not much. Foregoing notwithatnding, export of “capital goods’ to USA far excced consumer goods

  • leftofcenter

    With the Stateside debt, China won’t sell it all off. Why? Because there’s no advantage right now in doing it. 

    As for China taking on EU debt, they’re not obligated to do anything. Why would you want to prop up countries and corporations that should default? If you then say if they don’t, the global economy will fall apart, who’s responsible for that? (a) Greedy hedge funds and banks. (b) the DOJ and other regulators that won’t touch them UNLESS it’s potentially a high-profile conviction (i.e. Madoff) that scores re-election points for Obama. 

    The two main parties election strategy? Blame each other. The EU politicians strategy? Hope and pray that China will bail them out and save their jobs. The Occupy protestors are “anti-capitalist” (a line the MSM and NPR constantly put out)? Wrong. They want a better, more human form of capitalism.

    • Modavations

      They’ll let the European Suburbs burn, then they’ll have to interceede.The average guy in China makes about 2000.00 per annum.If the West freezes out China, they’ll have another Tienamen Sq(?).The Mandarins are worried.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

    Greece economy will go down the drain soon. It is just a matter of time.
    We will have to prepare for another economic chaos all over the world.

    • Corythatcher

      I’m curious to see what happens if citizens of debtor nations start to tell the global finance cabal to go to hell.  I’d like to see the Greeks vote this thing down.  Is that the wizard behind the curtain, or just an old charlatain? 

      • Modavations

        That’s easy.10% bonds.

  • Billjanis

    Somebody ask your caller Bo something.  I heard her “oh, poor us, why is everyone mean to us,” line of reasoning.  

    My response?  Where is the Panchen Lama?  Stop trying to destroy Tibet’s culture, and maybe we could start talking.  Stop being so afraid of The Dalai Lama, allow sell rule of a special country, and maybe we could start taking about China being treated properly.  Tibet in self rule, would have no military.  The world would LOVE China for this, and the tide would turn DRAMATICALLY. A LARGE portion of the Chinese people love Buddhism. What is the issue here Bo?

    Until these questions are answered, the idea of “poor China not understanding why we are not treated the same,” is lunacy.  Come ON China?  Is there not SOMEONE there that would understand how this would be the event of the century, to give Tibet self-rule, while Tibet would still be a part of China?  I really like China, and REALLY hope some innovative thinkers there GET this!

  • Corythatcher

    DOW down 300+ points because the Greek Prime Minister offers it’s citizens a referendum regarding it’s financial bailout.  How dare those pesky Greeks be allowed to have a say in their future!  The globalized financial bully, coming soon to a country near you.  And oh, by the way, the bully doesn’t care for democracy!

    • Modavations

      Greece,the last Socialist country(a few Scandanavian countries have coalition right-left govts.)of Europe.Even Spain and Portugal have gone laissez faire.

  • Modavations

    This is a prime example of “Lefty Gobble de gook”.It’s trendy to say Free Tibet.Just like it’s trendy to love Fidel.These kids couldn’t find Tibet on a map,let alone tell you the capitall.By the way,you can get a degree in Queer Musicology at UCLA.It’s right next to the Free Tibet Class.All you numbskulls that paid $150,000 for a College degree,sue for a refund

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      remember College loans cannot be written off.

      • Modavations

        Sue for malpractice.

        • Anonymous

          I thought the right was in favor of tort reform.

          • Modavations

            Levity lad.Learn to laugh.You know I’m for Tort Reform.The reason we can’t get it on, is that the Democrat Partry is indebted to their masters

    • TFRX

      Sounds like someone needs to rebalance his meds.

  • Modavations

    Europe has one way out and we’re in the same boat.Cut the spending and dismantle the heinous Welfare State.Reestablish the nuclear family.Do not,I repeat,do not raise taxes.Our economies are nothing but waste and fraud.Remember when the Japanese soldiers were found in the caves of the Philipines.The war had been over for twenty years.They were in rags,with long beards.The US govt is full of agencies and Departments. that time has forgotten.

    • Jeffe68

      Well that’s up for Europeans to decide. By the way because of their safety nets they are not hurting as much as people here are. Of course it depends on the country. There is a huge difference between Germany and Greece. The other comment about the Japanese soldiers is absurd and has nothing to do with economics or government departments. You think you are funny but you are not.

      • Modavations

        Thanks for a mature answer.I’m appreciative

    • Anonymous

      Europeans, unlike paranoid, uncouth Americans like yourself, actually value relationships with their family and friends. It’s a huge reason why their quality of life is better than the US’s and why western Europeans are for the most part far happier in OECD happiness indexes even after global economic collapse and the austerity measures enacted by various countries. IOW, they don’t need our advice and would instead advise that you join some hobby or volunteer groups and make some friends also. Your so called world view would be transformed.

      • Modavations

        I guess you’ve never seen an editorial by the NYT, admonishing Angela for not spending enough on their Stimulus plans.By the way,I’m hard at work.Some folks have an easy time of it.

        • Anonymous

          I wouldn’t call what you’re obviously and publicly going through “an easier time of it.” Appreciate the empty hubris and the strawman though. 

          • Modavations

            I’m saying,that while I’m talking to you with half my brain ,I have the phone in the other,talking to clients.I am actually at work.This is not a hobby, lad.I’m having trouble understanding you,however,so sorry for the difficulties.Imagine,if I put the phone down and gave you my full attention.Naw,half my brain will do

          • JP

            God help us all if you start using your whole brain… half is already quite too much.

          • Anonymous

            Oh, ok superman. But I’d take you and your work/multitasking bravado more seriously if “they” (your hypothetical employers) actually sprang for a new keyboard for you to use. 

      • Corythatcher

        Wotan_617, I’d like to buy you an ale or lager of your choosing!

        • Anonymous

          A pint of espresso stout would really hit the spot now. But only if I can spring for a round of warm sake afterwards!

          • http://www.facebook.com/xenophile407 Blair Rutledge Davidson

            I’m All In!!!

          • Anonymous

            The more the merrier!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_C2STBLZJK4VKQBV27DVQX3I6CU FAX68

      The Philippine government belief that there might be more Japanese soldiers hiding in the tropical rain forest of the Philippines.

  • Amaneek

    China is bailling out the capitalism?This means VIVA the communism.The world is applauding the Tien Amin massacre.Malthus,Karl max …..did not see that coming.I see the future unionless and a big change of the Macro economic.Governement got to control everything.

    • Corythatcher

      Communists did see it coming.  Ever hear the quote (Stalin, I think) that “We will hang you and you will sell us the rope”?

  • Modavations

    Acorn and Herr Obama sued Citibank for Red Lining.That,my friends is where this all started.Jimmy Carter,CRA,Janet Reno and the threat of the Federal Jackboot.

    • Corythatcher

      Really?  It ALL started with Obama?  Now THAT makes sense.

  • Terra Firma

    People tend to have a disconnect between being against human rights violations and consumption. It was enlightening to see another voice this (please read below). In addition, please think twice before purchasing tons of items shipped over seas, and manufactured using human rights violation practices. Purchase 2nd tier and reduce consumption as much as you can.

    We have no standing to tell another society how they must practice, but in this unabated free-market capitalism we CAN just NOT purchase as much. You vote and support your moral standings with your dollar.

    (Paraphrased comment posted by Charles A Bowsher below):

    We and our trade policies that don’t force China to recognize the “true cost” (disregard for human rights, the environment and our resources) of their manufacturing model are to blame for their blossoming power and ultimate control of the world’s economy and it’s natural resources. Until we force them to toe the line on human rights, natural resources management and protection they will always win……….We don’t have to buy ”Made in China

    • Anonymous

      And the produce picked here in the US by migrant, undocumented Latinos? Isn’t that also indentured servitude and a violation of human rights? Are there no sweatshops in NYC, LA, SF and so forth either that employ underaged labor also? What about our human rights violations when it comes to the Uighurs and the general GITMO situation let alone Abu Ghraib, collateral damage in both Iraq and Afghanistan and covert operations that have been ongoing and will continue throughout the world that we don’t want to know about. 

      Look, I hate what the Chinese are doing in Tibet and condemn it wholeheartedly, but let’s get real here. Our collective American s*** stinks just as much as the Chinese’s. I wonder how poorly the public reaction here in the US would be if there were any concerted effort by other nationalities to boycott “Made in USA” due to our own poor human rights record. There’s also something positive to be said about China’s current rebuilding of many African societies and their infrastructures.

      • Modavations

        Tibet,are you nuts.Go to any American Ghetto.It’s pitiful and a Human Rights Tragedy

        • Anonymous

          The US government last I check does not leverage foreign polities with soft power from issuing visitation visa to the likes of Rev. Eugene Rivers. 

  • Joe in Philly

    Brothers and Sisters, the big question is the basis/justification for free trade. Ask yourself are you better off today than before trade liberalization. If the answer is yes, ask yourself if your country (that’s the US of A) is better off? Unless you answer yes to both questions free trade has failed. And, if you don’t agree, then it’s time you moved out of your walled community and see the real America!

    • Modavations

      Always,always,always.Our probllem is a profligate govt.,that spends every cent it gets it’s hands on and more.The easy solution is Term Limits

      • Corythatcher

        Wrong about everything except term limits.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    The news reports of pending chaos in the Eurozone.   How bad can it get?  Greeks will lose their govt jobs, and wont be able to buy jeans, luxury goods and electronic equipment.

    The Greeks like all southern Europeans, have seen the worst or war and poverty, plagues and occupations.  But they havent forgotten how to make wine, cheese,  bread and to raise chicken and lambs.

    Chaos??   When the unemployed Greeks are sitting in the sun sipping ouzo,  people in the US will be killing each other in the Walmart parking lot with the same level of austerity.  Its a cultural difference.

    • Zing

      Romantic, but stupid..unemployed Greeks will be buying nothing..I say let ‘em default and put their economy 15 years behind…bring it on…!

    • Hidan

      Dude watch out you have a stalkers on the amos thread. seems the troll now has you in his sights.  Seems he came out from his bridge.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

  • Cory

    On Point Producers,

    Disquss is using my full name again.  I’d prefer just “Cory”.  Thanks.

    • Zing

      Cluck, cluck, cluck, I live in a hen house but I don’t want the truth on this forum…ba-dawk!

      • Corythatcher

        Huh?

        • TFRX

          Apparently in the universe Zing inhabits nobody ever got delisted for a job interview as, say, an architect or insurance claims adjuster, by having the wrong political opinion.

      • Jeffe68

        What a maroon.

  • Guest

    Congratulations for another splendid self-love fest, Americans!. America is a great country, you should put up all the money to save Greece. Of course,  America leads while Europe follows. As to us Chinese, we have got our own poor to look after.

    • Anonymous

      Really? When are you going to start doing that?

  • twenty-niner

    Dear economists:

    Thank you for transitioning us to a service-based economy, where we trade IOUs for shoddy goods made with slave labor; and when we run out of IOUs, we write more IOUs to cover the existing IOUs and buy more shoddy goods. Repeat indefinitely and exponentially.

    Morons…

  • Hidan

    Communist China not only bailing out the U.S. but now Europe. This once and for  all proves that Centralized Planing doesn’t work, oh wait Centralized Planning China is bailing out laissez faire American and Socialist Europe.

    Does not compute….

    • twenty-niner

      Central plans work better when they include the following:

      1) Manipulate currency to lower the cost of exports.
      2) Dump products at below cost to put competitors out of business.
      3) Use slave labor.
      4) Dump waste directly into local river through large pipe.
      5) Steal intellectual property from trading partners.
      6) Pirate software and other electronic media on a mass scale.
      7) Pay off politicians in competing countries to allow free reign.

      • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

        Excellent points.

    • Anonymous

      China works in the short-term at least because it’s a command economy pretending to be a market economy. If they played by the same rules as the civilized world, the situation would be much different. 

      • Bswv

        matter of fact: China is uner communist party in it pollitical control, but  with more capiralized economy, then USA .Realityy is that China is where they are , whereas , we are where are today. one is dead wrong to say the chinese economy is a short term economy, It has always been under a lont trm trm policy.

  • Hank

    It’s hard to argue the US is a capitalist economy when huge sections of industries exist because of subsidies and tax breaks, and the government can and has stepped directly into the system, such as it did (and continues to do) for so many, many companies during this most recent economic collapse.

  • Anonymous

    I was shocked to hear the guest refer to Tienanmen Square as a “Tragedy.” A massacre is not a tragedy it is a crime, and the criminals are still running the Chinese state.  

    Further, there’s nothing mysterious or laudable about China’s economy: it’s easy to win when you cheat. 

    • Guest

      Hi Robie. I heard that you were on the last tour in Iraq. He has to feel really good killing that Saracen in Bagdad, and raping his wife while he watches.

      Did you say your mid-east adventure cost your 3 trillion? Peanuts, right!

    • Bswv

      matter of fact:
      one must be very stipid to tbe cheated!! surely, Tienanmen Sq incidnts were crime, so like wise, our pre-attemptove strike for Iraq.

  • Tiyanpit

    This situation proves once again that we are interdependent; thus we must respect each other. Europe used to be on top; they came down. The United States took the lead; they are not going down. China is on the rise, and they too will eventually go down. And one day, I may not be around, but one day it will be Africa’s turn.
    God Bless Everyone

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      Africa? 

      Perhaps
      in the next millennium

      • Gregjockca

        Nope. In this one. China has every reason to develop trade with Africa for its resources. Too bad about the Asian ebola outbreak to come. But more about that in the years to come. God bless. Lol.

  • vor

    Greece and some European countries should be where they belong : middle income countries just like Brazil, Argentina, or Turkey.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

    “The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.” ― Karl Marx

    Turns out that it will be the Chinese making the rope and selling it back to us, and pulling the lever to “hang” the West. We did ourselves in with a corrupt political class, bought and paid for by an equally corrupt corporate class with boundless greed, and an apathetic electorate too dumb to know what is being done to them by their so called “leaders”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/xenophile407 Blair Rutledge Davidson

    China wants to be a First World Country and will buy their way in to that position,should not be too hard with all the shipping containers of American money we export to China in exchange for cheaply made and super affordable throw away products we Americans are addicted to.And we are not the only country hungry for China’s cheap exports and cheaper labor.China has a cash flow situation that is best described as an endless abundance!! Once that happens it will turn into an arms race to get them fully equipped with super high quality military gear so that the playing field will be level and the stage set for the fatal blow to America that will come in the form of total financial ruin,and that from the inside out,we have brought this on ourselves via greed and lack of vision and preparation!!! Mark my words write them down cause I’m not gonna say I told ya so this is a warning every person needs to be aware of and China will make sure everyone knows they have been invited to the party,hey that’s the balance shift that has been coming for some years now no problem right?It’s not like I have any thing against China,though there are some who will say we never saw this coming,China to the rescue out of no where!!! Don’t be surprised don’t even act surprised!!! Remember the 80′s? often refereed to as a decade of decadence? We are at the beginning of the next named decade it will be called Decade of Decay…..

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/3ETFGMQ3B7VD4AAMILBBEVMCWE JasonA

      You are correct and China is being valiantly assiisted in its goasls by the whores in the US Congress and its corporate money mansters.

  • your listener

    I sorted out the different mentality between the western and Chinese philosophies, western like to be served sitting down, want everything on their plate even if their credit maxed out, they’d rather pay tips, then Chinese like buffet style…

    Yes, China expanded modern infrastructure into Tibet, why is this more evil than the old serfdom under Tibetan Buddhism?  How’s that worse than good old American put the American Indians in reservations? 

    Again, I’m not defending anyone, but try not to sing the same old tunes like old folklores….

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 23, 2014
In this Thursday, Dec. 20, 2012, file photo, Chet Kanojia, founder and CEO of Aereo, Inc., shows a tablet displaying his company's technology, in New York. Aereo is one of several startups created to deliver traditional media over the Internet without licensing agreements. (AP)

The Supreme Court looks at Aereo, the little startup that could cut your cable cord and up-end TV as we’ve known it. We look at the battle. Plus: a state ban on affirmative action in college admissions is upheld. We’ll examine the implications.

Apr 23, 2014
Attendees of the 2013 Argentina International Coaching Federation meet for networking and coaching training. (ICF)

The booming business of life coaches. Everybody seems to have one these days. Therapists are feeling the pinch. We look at the life coach craze.

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Apr 22, 2014
This undated handout photo, taken in 2001, provided by the Museum of the Rockies shows a bronze cast of the Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton known as the Wankel T.rex, in front of the Museum of the Rockies at Montana State University in Bozeman, Mont. (AP)

As a new Tyrannosaurus Rex arrives at the Smithsonian, we’ll look at its home – pre-historic Montana – and the age when dinosaurs ruled the Earth.

 
Apr 22, 2014
Security forces inspect the site of a suicide attack in the town of Suwayrah, 25 miles (40 kilometers) south of Baghdad, Iraq, Monday, April 21, 2014. Suicide bombings and other attacks across Iraq killed and wounded dozens on Monday, officials said, the latest in an uptick in violence as the country counts down to crucial parliament elections later this month. (AP)

We look at Iraq now, two years after Americans boots marched out. New elections next week, and the country on the verge of all-out civil war.

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