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Boeing And The National Labor Relations Board

The epic battle over Boeing moving manufacturing of the 787 Dreamliner from Washington State to South Carolina.

The Boeing Co. 737 assembly facility is shown in Renton, Wash., Boeing asked a Seattle judge to dismiss a case brought by the National Labor Relations Board that accuses the plane maker of breaking the law when it built a non-union production line in South Carolina. (AP)

The Boeing Co. 737 assembly facility is shown in Renton, Wash., Boeing asked a Seattle judge to dismiss a case brought by the National Labor Relations Board that accuses the plane maker of breaking the law when it built a non-union production line in South Carolina. (AP)

When mighty Boeing set out to build its new 787 Dreamliner aircraft, it laid out big manufacturing plans for South Carolina, a right-to-work state where unions are not strong.

Boeing put up a billion-dollar factory in Charleston, and South Carolina celebrated. This summer, the National Labor Relations Board said the huge new plant is illegal, built to punish union workers in Washington State –- and asked a judge to order Boeing production back to Puget Sound.

Now, an epic battle is raging over law, ideology, rights, and raw power.

This hour On Point: the raging battle over Boeing.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Steven Greenhouse, labor and workplace correspondent for the New York Times.

Douglas Woodward, professor of economics at the University of South Carolina business school.

Harley Shaiken, professor at the University of California, Berkeley who specializes in labor issues.

Richard Epstein, professor of law at New York University, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, and senior lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School.

From Tom’s Reading List

Slate “There’s a fine line between congressional oversight and congressional overreach, but I think it’s safe to say that Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, has well and truly crossed it. His crusade against the National Labor Relations Board—a crusade that puts basic tenets of due process, judicial independence, and workers’ rights at risk—makes sense only if you are a subscriber to the nihilist worldview that virtually all government agencies are corrupt, socialist minions of Obama.”

The New York Times “Boeing’s gigantic new $750 million airplane factory here is the pride of South Carolina, the biggest single investment ever made in a state that is far more associated with old-line textile mills than state-of-the-art manufacturing. In just a few weeks, 1,000 workers will begin assembling the first of what they hope will be hundreds of 787 Dreamliners. “

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  • brian parizek

    i’m assuming boeing (a private held company) can build a plant anywhere a state and local would let them.  it really seems like the National Labor Relations Board has no say in this matter.

    • Bob

      Sure, until we are all woking for $7.50 an hour with no hospital.

      • Gary

        ^  The Paranoid, Fear-Based Left

      • brian parizek

        south carolina is a right to work state; if wages and benefits decline, the employees have the option of forming a union (but no one should be forced to join a union for employment).

        • TFRX

          What about all those people who get higher-level wages owing to unions? They don’t have to join, but they get the benefits?

          • brian parizek

            i am in a union, in a right to work state, and i have no problem w/ the 10% at my employer have not chosen to join.  i work for my employer, not my union.

          • TFRX

            So how does that work? Those non-union employees are getting a free ride on your dues? Seems they haven’t done anything to drive up wages and benefits over the years through collective bargaining. Do they get them anyway?

          • brian parizek

            yes…and i don’t see it as it free ride.  i see the benefits of the union and i enjoy the fraternalism.  if my co-worker doesn’t, then so be it.

          • TFRX

            So you pay, they don’t, and all you get is “fraternalism”, while they get to compete in the workplace where unions have driven up wages and bennies, for decades?

            You seem to be pretty free and easy with your material possessions.

          • brian parizek

            …what they don’t get is union protection if they’re involved in an “on the job incident”

            …you seem to be pretty narrow-minded with your thought process.

            bottom line, i earned my position and status at my employer, based on my work experience and ethic (not based on union membership).  if you think that an individual needs or is required to have union membership to achieve employment (and status w/ that employer), then i think we’ve just discovered the problem w/ unions in the america today.

          • Gary

            They didn’t get a free ride, but have actually PAID more for whatever products were made my union workers.  Why does the Left hate poor people?

    • Anonymous

      @f95374b2f4c4a87bf640a94ba07452be:disqus Boeing can build a plant “anywhere” as long as it is not being done for illegal reasons.

      And this is not about AMERICAN JOBS. It is about the right of a state to “poach” jobs from another state, just as much of Texas’s job growth has been. Note that these at least are not minimum wage jobs (South Carolina style) of which Texas’s new jobs are 40% minimum wage.

      The law that the NRLB is enforcing is NOT new; but apparently Republican appointees have not enforced the law recently and businesses have got used to that.

      Note also that Boeing has had a lot of problems lately with outsourcing causing delays in construction of one of its recent planes with large cost implications. How much of this action is to try to recover from past losses?

      • brian parizek

        then washington state should become a right to work state…and the union should have negotiated a bit more effectively when this production line was proposed.

        you see this as illegal, i see this as a company trying to survive and remain competitive.

        • Anonymous

          @f95374b2f4c4a87bf640a94ba07452be:disqus I don’t see this as a settled issue, like you do. Note also the recent comment as to Boeing’s wanting a “counterbalance” in future labor negotiations.

          I could see the SC small businessman’s opinion that the SC plant should be unionized. Note that Ayn Rand advocated for unions to give power to workers against corporate power.

          • brian parizek

            unions rose to power because of necessity, the protection of the worker when business used it’s labor force “at-will”.  until there is a necessity at this plant, then why must they be union?

            certainly boeing has to consider labor negotiations as one of many possible infuences on future cost, growth and expansion.

            the last section of your comment, while you use it for support of your position, i’ll let anyone have their opinion.

  • twenty-niner

    Ridiculous. When GE decides to share strategic jet technology with China or move its X-ray business off shore, there’s hardly a peep from Washington; but when Boeing actually builds a plant in the US, they get sued. I’m sure if they had chosen mainland China, they would’ve gotten a big thumbs up from the white house.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/business/global/18plane.html?pagewanted=all

    http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-26/business/29817324_1_ge-healthcare-x-ray-business-china-last-year

    • Michael

      Funny how that works

    • Cory

      Be glad you’ve been given this, peons!  Do not question or challege us!  Speak to us not of unions or worker’s rights!  Do not bring before us any entity representing the people who shall labor for us!  BEGONE!

      • twenty-niner

        Got me there. I guess welfare checks and food stamps are better than jobs, unless of course you’re lucky enough to get one of those Walmart-greeter jobs across from the plant (where you used to work) that moved to China. Maybe those people in South Carolina could get government jobs at the TSA feeling up passengers just before they step on a brand new 787 made in China.

        • TFRX

          Ooh, “welfare checks” and “food stamps”? SuhNAPP!

          Except for when we’re outside the self-reinforcing Foxloop.

          • twenty-niner

            Ooh, “welfare checks” and “food stamps”

            Not to worry, you’ll still get yours for years to come.

          • TFRX

            Yep, just keep assuming things about me.

            And dogwhistling, seeing as how what you wish to say isn’t accepted in polite society any longer.

          • twenty-niner

            Last time I checked, dog whistles where made in China:

            http://fang-li.en.made-in-china.com/product/UbSQKIYHHikP/China-Training-Whistle.html
             

  • Anonymous

    The race to bottom is on. Corporations are more interested in the bottom line than in offering decent living wages. While I’m sure the workers in South Carolina are well paid they will not have the benefits or rights afforded by their union brethren.

    What gets me is how is it OK of the CEO’s of these large corporations to walk away with huge compensations and when the people on the shop floor want a better piece of the pie it’s called bad for busniess.   
    I keep hearing from the right how unions are bad. Meanwhile in Germany the high end manufacturing sector works quite well with the unions. So well that until recently they have weathered the recession quite well.

    • Gregg

      “Corporations are more interested in the bottom line than in offering decent living wages.”

      Bingo! It is not the corporations responsibility to offer “decent living wages”… whatever that is. They are in the business to make money. The marketplace decides wages. No one is being forced to work these high paying jobs at Boeing and Government has no right to tell a private business which state they can or can’t build a factory. States are free to decide whether to be a right to work state or not.

      Any talk of the value of unions is totally irrelevant to these core issues IMO. If it works for Germany or Seattle, fine. I think Germany’s ability to deal with the recession has more to do with Merkel’s total rejection of Obama’s advice at the last G-20 summit.

      • Anonymous

        In the case of Germany it’s more to do with how the system they have in place and not how Merkel is handling the economy. In fact she’s not doing so well in the polls over there.

        To answer your comment I deffer to Henry Ford who had the bright idea of paying his workers more than most and his reason for doing so was so he could sell them the very cars they were employed to manufacture. Gee, there’s an idea paying people enough to buy the things you’re trying to sell there by making the entire enterprise more profitable. What a concept.

        • Gregg

          Henry Ford was a good business man. His quest for profit was the motivator and government had nothing to do with it. I have no problem with his capitalistic strategy.

          • Anonymous

            So you agree with his idea to pay his workers decent living wages.

          • Gregg

            Again, “decent living wages” is a murky phrase. With all due respect, it’s an emotional and loaded term. Do you have a number? If Ford lost money and went out of business because of wages then it’s all for naught. I happen to believe skill, loyalty, demand, work ethic and production need to play a roll. None of that does when you join a union. I’m not saying private sector unions are bad, I’m saying when you join one you become a number. Many people find comfort in that, fine. Henry Ford paid workers well without influence from unions.

          • Anonymous

            A living wage is a pretty simple concept. People are paid enough to have a decent living. There was a time when some mill owners believed in making their mills better places to work at. Mind you children were employed, but the offered decent housing and free health care. Mind you these were an exception in the 19th century and not the rule. Ford paid his workers well but he still had strikes and he was ruthless. What you are pointing out about unions is not really true. I do however concur that there are some real problems with how unions can become corrupt and so on. 

          • Yar

            Does a decent living mean saving enough to live on in retirement? Does it mean access to healthcare? Does it mean a safe workplace?  Does it mean access to a job interview where sex, race, class, orientation, are not used as a filter in hiring decisions   Different parts of the political spectrum define decent differently.  Some even think decency is somehow granted by birth, defined by race, religion, and economic class.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, it does. I already mentioned the safe workplace.
            You are also mentioning federal labor laws, which are not enforced for the most part. The so called “right to work states” pretty much do away with all of these rules. In Massachusetts the effect of this is such that unless you are in a union you can be fired for the color of the tie you wear.

          • Gregg

            Firing a good productive worker for the color of their tie would be bad business and is just as counter-productive as being forced to keep and pay a terrible worker more than he/she is worth.

          • no name

            Then why did the ford workers risk violence,  death and loss of their jobs in order to unionize ford motor?

          • Gregg

            I’m not sure what you are responding to but it’s their right to unionize if they want. 

          • Gregg

            When I replied (below) your second paragraph did not show up for some reason. Probably my end. I agree.

      • Cory

        Gregg is dead on, and everyone should read it twice, write it on a piece of stationary, and tape it to the fridge.

        CORPORATIONS CARE ABOUT CREATING PROFIT, NOTHING ELSE.  They don’t care about the environment, the American dream, the middle class, patriotism, puppies and kittens, or anything else.  THEY MUST BE DEALT WITH KEEPING THIS IN MIND AT ALL TIMES!  

        • Gregg

          “They don’t care about the environment, the American dream, the middle class, patriotism, puppies and kittens, or anything else.”

          I never said that.

          • Cory

            Am I wrong in any of these points?

          • Gregg

            All of them, especially kittens.

        • TFRX

          All those lobbying groups, image ads, and happy horsecrap fronts from
          corps don’t mean anything. The bottom line is the bottom line.

          So, if we don’t ask corporations to give a crap about anything except profits, they don’t get to whine when we discuss regulating them?

          Sounds like a deal to me.

  • Dee

    I am so glad the National Labor Relations Board is confronting this abuse of US workers rights by companies in the private sector such as Boeing and hopefully many other US corporations on Uncle Sam’s payroll…

    Isn’t it shocking that General Electric shipped various parts of their production line overseas and denying American workers those jobs.

    I think the whole idea of US corporations being in the government’s
    pocket is a pretty sick thing to begin with and it is driving American
    aggression at home and abroad to keep up corporate profits …

    Plus, it is contributing directly to global warming and bankrupting the American economy and it has made turned the Gross National Product
    into war making… This is so corrupting on so many different levels ..

    Pretty soon it won’t be just the Egyptians or the Greeks or indeed
    the English who are who rejecting what their government represent today but Americans as well.  Dee

    How can that be representing American values and the American narrative of freedom and liberty for all around the world today?

  • AC

    I haven’t heard anything about this – are they shutting down their facilities in Seattle? Completely or partially?

    • Cory

      They might leave a production skeleton behind if they can extort enough from the taxpayers of Washington State.

      • Freeman

        Cory;
                   Isn’t it amazing how ALL these companies shift their liabilities to the local taxpayers to increase their profits. BLACKMAIL ? Walks like a Duck,sounds like a Duck, looks like a Duck; probably is a Duck.

        • Cory

          And about half of Americans think this is just terrific.  Terribly sad.

  • Winston Smith

    Boeing should certainly be able to build a plant in South Carolina and introduce competition into the sourcing of their airplanes.  The unions destroyed the steel industry, the auto industry, and have decimated government finances (thank goodness we can run those printing presses!).  Let’s not let them destroy the aerospace industry.  If the Seattle workers can’t compete because their wages and benefits are out of touch with economic reality, then move the jobs to where people are willing to work at a reasonable wage.  Then pass a law so that the laid off bums can’t collect unemployment insurance and live off of me.

    • Anonymous

       Sorry Smith, they are not living off of you. Unemployment insurance is paid for by taxes at both the state and federal level by the employer not you the individual. Get your facts right before you go off on subjects you clearly have little or no knowledge of.

      Unions brought us the weekend. They brought us safety laws and living wages. Decent benefits as well. It seems to me you are one of those people who would bring back indentured servitude if you could.

      • Winston Smith

        When more people use unemployment, especially when they are not satisfied with the overpriced wages and benefits, businesses pay for that.  And they have to pass their costs along to me, a consumer.  Also, most of the state unemployment funds are bankrupt and they are borrowing from the bankrupt federal government.  Guess who is eventually going to have to pay for that?

    • Cory

      Define “economic reality”.  Oh hell, let me do it for you.  Use third  world pennies a day labor to beat down American labor.  Low pay, crap bennies, high profits for shareholders and stakeholders.  Do I have it right, Lord Winston Smith-Duke of the American grand plutocracy?

  • Winston Smith

    The fact that the NLRB is even involved with this matter is another demonstration of how the Democrats are in bed with the unions and are trying to take our economy hostage to their featherbedding demands.

    • Cory

      Beware the oppressive domination of the all powerful unions in America!  BTW, do you know what percentage of Americans belong to a union?

      • Winston Smith

        Admittedly a low percentage, because most of the heavily unionized industries like steel and autos have been driven into bankruptcy.  Governments are more heavily unionized because of the incestuous relationship between the fiscally irresponsible Democrats and the fiscally clueless unions.

    • Anonymous

      If you replace NLRB with House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Democrats with Republicans, and unions with corporations it sounds more like it.

  • Bob

    Until someone does something about shipping jobs out of the country it just going to keep getting worse. I know, I’ve been there and I have an engineering degree. One of these days we may find an economist who has had his/her job shipped out of the country and then the economists will finally start talking about this as being a big contributor to our downfall, banana republic and all.

    • Cory

      And it started with unskilled factory stuff and has now reached skilled folks like you.  Buh-bye, middle class!

  • Worried for the country(MA)

    I love the title of the Slate article Tom linked above: “Dues Process”.

    It is all about protecting union dues and the Democrat money train.

    • Cory

      Yes, unions sure are thriving right now.  All aboard the American worker’s rights gravy train!  Are you incapable of combining the lessons of history with a contemporary global view?  Should we just depend on government, the wealthy, and corporations to be benevolent stewards of our fate?

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        I was in disbelief when I first heard of this story.  It certainly looked like a clear example of NLRB overreach.   I checked a little further and found that Obama packed the NLRB with union hacks and ideologues in 2009 and it made more sense.

        Traditionally NLRB has an important role but when it overreaches and tries to extort private business for political gain it diminishes its true role.  NRLB should be looking out for workers not unions.

        • Cory

          But what are unions?  Unions ARE the workers in the same sense that the government IS Americans.

          I’ll grant you over-reach.  All human bureaucracies suffer from corruption and innefficiency.  A world without organized labor and an America without the NLRSB are lesser places.

      • Worried for the country(MA)

        Also, remember, when the NLRB overreaches it costs us all.  In the extreme example businesses will give up and move out of the country to more business friendly domiciles.

        • Anonymous

          It seems there are always reasons why companies move out of this country. That seems to be the pat answer to everything and they seem to have moved the majority of decent jobs out already.

          So the answer is we give them whatever they want and they stop taking prisoners?? 

  • AC

    I don’t know – I worked with some union people and asked how it works, to tell you the truth, the whole thing seemed like a rip-off employment agency that they had to tip-toe around to keep getting put on jobs.
    On the other hand, my husband briefly did a job for a small business owner a few years ago. If this man could still use slaves, and beat them, he would! As it was, he closed the company after a high profit job w/o taking care of his employees – they had to go through some gov work group just to collect their last paychecks. (Fortunately my husband had already been paid for his work and he was able to help two of the people there get new jobs…)
    I think the pendulum here swings to both extremes constantly, but there is def a need for some type of protection to workers….

    • AC

      sorry, this was in reply to Winston Smith….

  • paj

    Unions have been a part of building the middle class in this country. They are now threatened by corporations’ race to the bottom. Union members need to be cognizant of that tension and keep their members realistic. Without unions though, workers become peons. 

    • Cory

      I agree, but it is too late.  The solution now is completing the race to the bottom.  Americans are proving that they have lost the lessons of history and will have to begin from scratch the process of building worker’s rights.  We are entering a dark time… 

  • twenty-niner

    As it turns out, even in docile Germany, unemployed and discontented youth can only take so much:

    “Mercedes Targeted as Luxury Cars Burned in German Globalization Protests”


    When the country in 2009 experienced its worst recession
    since World War II, a record 221 autos were torched. A key
    factor for the unrest is that about 40 percent of German youths
    are either without a high school degree or a paying job,
    according to Johannes Becker, head of the Center for Conflict
    Studies at the University of Marburg.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-16/luxury-cars-burned-in-berlin-protests.html

  • Anonymous

    Having worked in the fields, in factories, on docks and on trucks, I have been exposed to many dangers: workers safety and rights need to be protected from amoral, thoughtless, self-interested individuals and organizations. To believe that self regulation works: to rely upon the good hearts of employers is to deny that there are ruthless, reckless and evil people out there. That is just naive, childish or dishonest.

    Wall Street, Enron, Madoff, BP, Corporate Pig Farm Polution and the Upper Big Branch Mine disaster are just as few examples of the need for regulatory enforcement.  To believe that regulation is evil is just insane.

    That said, you can have ruthless, stupid and self-interested people working on the other side of the fence. There needs to be a balance. Ridiculuous, impracticable regulations need renovation, but to take the position that we need to shut down oversight of labor relations and work to deregulate everything just reflects the fact that the corporate ruling class have purchased the best Congressman and Senators that their money can buy.

    There were regulations in place to control the root causes of our economic disaster: Credit Default Swaps, Derivatives, Junk Mortgages, the likes of Madoff; the problem was that political leaders didn’t want to enforce those regulations.

    In light of recent history, one has to question the real motives of those who call for doing away with regulations without offering checks and balances againt the financially strong and power elite.

    • Cory

      MadMark…  I’d like to buy you an ale or lager of your choosing.  Your willingness to recognize BOTH sides of the issue is a thing of logical beauty!

    • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

      Well said Mark. Few would argue that one of the many contributing factors driving the American auto industry into a ditch were auto union demands that were impossible to satisfy. Legacy healthcare alone is hurting many large companies.

      That said, there are many other reasons GM, United Airlines, and others have gone under and reorganized, no doubt the most important being poor management (both corporate and Union) and too many decisions being made that look good now but look terrible in a few years (short term thinking).

      Like US debt, at some point the buck has to stop (if there’s a buck left).

  • Yar

    Is the Chamber of Commerce, a union?  How does it behave like an union and how is it different?  The right to organize is part of what makes our nation strong.  When one side uses their power to keep the other side from organizing we lose balance, this causes the pendulum of justice to swing from one side to the other.  It usually ends badly. 

  • Markus

    A right to work state prohibits agreements between labor unions and employers that force employees to become members of the union. Essentially, in a right to work state, an employee can decide to join a union or not for a particular shop.
     
    Being in a non right to work state and having a number of relatives in unions, I’m confident that this rule drives up costs and reduces flexibility significantly. I have many examples of a cop (friend) on disability while on a ski trip, relative putting in roughly 20 hours per week for a full week’s pay, another, who had to take multiple hour long breaks on his mail route (as a temp), to conform to the speed the union enforced. All are protected by a union that, probably, a long time ago was protecting workers rights.
     
    So Washington state agrees to a rule that increases unions and is surprised when companies move away. I’m waiting for someone to suggest regulations to prohibit this kind of thing, while complaining about how companies are outsourcing jobs overseas.
     
    This kind of legislation is not sufficient by itself to result in increased outsourcing. I don’t think there’s ever a single cause to anything complex. But it will give execs one more reason to move jobs overseas.  IMO, it’d be better to question the effects of being a right to work state.

  • Anonymous

    According to Wikipedia’s citation of June 2011 unemployment statistics, SC’s unemployment rate is 10.5% (although this commentator writes from an area of the state where the rate hovers above 14%), that for Washington state 9.2%. Boeing has claimed with whatever justification that in building the SC plant no jobs were taken from workers in the Seattle region, a topic we hope to hear addressed in the program discussion. Before Boeing’s plant came along, foreign auto manufacturers (BMW, Honda) set up facilities in the state no doubt in part because of SC’s appeal as a right-to-work state: and why not? South Carolina is NOT Washington state, any more than it’s Wisconsin or New York state. Unions are not part of the fabric of life down here, we don’t need them, and largely, we don’t want them, we have enough problems without introducing corrupt unions, the kind that have enhanced the appeal of states like California and New York, Nevada and Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin. –On another hand, it is only galling to hear “labor experts” operating in non-right-to-work states take a state like SC to task because of its dismissive attitude towards unions; the documented histories of labor (and concomitant political) corruption in so many of those states may be fine for them, but it is no remedy to the daily realities faced on the ground here in South Carolina. Isn’t the full measure of “multi-culturalism”, after all, a profound respect and deference for the ways other cultures comport themselves? South Carolina certainly holds authentic sui generis credentials, and the state has no need to pursue labor practices and policies that are manifestly alien to it. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    Perhaps this decision is a long term strategy of Boeing becoming more defense oriented,  which would explain their move away from the liberal chinese influenced northwest to the pro-defense evangelical South Carolina and within vicinity of the Pentagon and DC.

    Airbus is kicking butt around the world, and the Chinese will be producing their own planes soon.  I expect Boeing to be going into more drones and missiles.

    • Anonymous

      Or perhaps it has something to do with Charleston’s being an East Coast port? Another element of a sound business decision in placing a manufacturing plant where parts or materials from overseas come ashore.

    • Cory

      So now less conservative states are actually Chinese puppet states?  A bit too early to break into the vino, Paolo…

    • Anonymous

      Airbus from godless socialist Europe?

  • Anonymous

    South Carolina: hundreds of years of supplying cheap labor.

    • Cory

      above statement accompanied in backround by soft strum of banjo music…

      • twenty-niner

        More like a Guzheng.

      • Gary

        Or rap music.  Wait, when you criticize the intelligence of the South, you only mean whites?  Got it.

    • twenty-niner

      China: thousands of years of supplying cheaper labor.

  • Suzie in Newport, RI

    First, I hate that so much of my taxpayer money goes towards weapons and defense.  I wish I could check out of funding wars, just the way right wing pro-lifers get to exempt themselves for paying for women’s healthcare.  Why should I have to pay for wepons if they don’t have to pay for abortions?

    Second, I am a proud union member and have watched intensified the nationwide assault on labor this year with horror and disgust.

    Third, the South Carolinans who will be taking these jobs are essentially scabs, no different from those who cross a picket line in person.  They should be aware of that as they joyfully take their low wage jobs with no security.  They are essentially allowing themselves to be turned against their fellow workers in Washington State, with the corporations in control.  Boeing must be joyful to able to turn worker against worker in this way.  Labor against labor: corporate America couldn’t be more happy! A big race to the bottom.

    • Suzie in Newport, RI

      Sorry I misspelled “weapons.”  I am tired of now channeling my taxpayer money towards anti-union corporations like Boeing.

  • Modavations

    This overeach,the vagaries of the EPA,Card Check,etc, smack of totalitarianism!!!!No wonder I keep hearing from “Titans of Industry,” tthat this is the most antibusiness govt.in history.And please,keep your hands off my lt.bulbs.

    • TFRX

      You forgot “uncertainty” and “wahwahwah they’ll tax the extra profits too much” as reasons why businesses aren’t expanding like gangbusters.

      Continuinal missing of hack talking points will result in a dunning of 100 Foxbucks.

    • AC

      I don’t understand where you are coming from? Do you like wasting tax $$$?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      MORE CEOs should get EXORBITANT  compensation for making decisions that bankrupt the company they are hired to help?  Those ‘Titans of Industry’?

  • Cime

    Folks! lighten up! They didn’t go to China!! I’m really suprised!!

    • Kris

      Really would this even be a debate if Boeing moved to another country. I think not! What about all the companies who have already baled on the United States? Were they given this same scrutiny? I doubt it. The labor board will be lucky if the PRIVATE company, Boeing decides Not to go to another country after this debacle!

    • Modavations

      This is precisely why co.s do leave the US

    • Cory

      No, they went to “China lite”.

  • Jhsusak

    The South has been the North’s “Mexico” for decades.  The South has no problem with it until the jobs take the logical next step, to actual Mexico.  Why the fuss now?

  • Modavations

    Another,pointy head from Columbia.I can’t believe people spend $50,000.00 per year, to get what I consider,Leftist Propaganda

    • Cory

      Stupid educated people!  Hulk smash!!

      • Modavations

        There is difference between an educator who has not worked in the real world and one who teaches after 20 years working in his field.

        • Cory

          Aah yes, the celebrated “real world”.  So 4 years for your bachelors, 2 years for your masters, a few more to get your PHD, then 20 years in the real world.

          Academics should be ready to teach at the university level by the time they are about 50.

  • Dave

    I can’t blame South Carolinians for wanting Boeing in their state.  Good jobs.  But Tom asks “should Boeing be able to take its manufacturing wherever it wants?”   Well, what if Boeing decided to go to China?  Kind of changes the whole debate.

  • Modavations

    Sorry,sorry,I meant Berkley,but same “diff”.

  • X-Ray

    I think that the situation is misrepresented; the Dreamliner production is not being moved, only a second line is being opened in SC. A production line still exists at the Seattle union plant. The union jobs are not being lost, only the greed of the union to take all the work is being limited.

  • Roughing It

    the southern right to work states are explicitly seen by Europeans as their very own Mexico, i.e. places where they can exploit cheap labour without meddlesome environmental or safety concerns.  Germans in the BMW board rooms are laughing at you, Charleston chumps…

    • Cory

      What he said, Charleston!

  • Cheryl from Virginia

    Unions need to open their eyes and see the bigger picture.  How can they not see they are not just hurting themselves but all American workers.
     
    This is 2011 and the economy is GLOBAL.  If our labor laws start telling a company where (in the U.S.) they have to locate their businesses then they will obviously go out of the country.  South Korea, India, lots of other places where people want jobs and the governmemnts there are more than glad to open the accomodate these businesses!  The United States is not their only choice.  America will not go back to work until we are able to convince businesses that we are the BEST place to open factories.
     
    Perfect example of the federal government behaving in ways that will kill jobs in this country.

    • Cory

      So your implication is that we should do away with unions and match the pay and working standards present in Shanghai, Bangalore, and Mogadishu?

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Go work on an assembly-line in China, Bangladesh, or Mogadishu, for ten years, at lowest-paid workers’ compensation, then come back and report, please!

  • Alex Nelson

    While I’m sympathetic to the plight of workers in South Carolina, the ultimate issue here is following the law.  If Republicans want to change the rules about labor retaliation, let them campaign on that, but as the law stands, the NLRB is just doing its job as it has been instructed.

  • Freeman

    Tom;
           The government should hold Boeings’ ” feet to the fire”. They complain about wage issues, but they never mention the PROFITS and the prices they charge the Government which you know is MY money.
    Any company that receives government money SHOULD FOLLOW THE RULES ( NLRB )

    • Modavations

      Half the country is on the “dole”,one way or another and that’s half the problem

      • TFRX

        Yes, curse those Lucky Duckies! How dare they enjoy a life of relaxed, stress-free genteel poverty, and all the advantages that come with not earning enough to pay Federal income tax?

        Oh how I envy them.

      • Cory

        I’m not sure if I’m on the dole or not.  Does that mean I’m on the dole, or not?

      • Anonymous

        You are talking about all the govt $$ big corporate gets – they seem to be the source of the biggest sucking sound in this country

  • TFRX

    Harley Shaiken has mentioned that we are discussing two states arguing over moving jobs between them, rather than creating any from the ground up.

    Please consider inviting him back when a program about Rick Perry is scheduled to discuss Texas’ job poaching record.

  • Bruce

    Tom, I’m Congressman Bruce Braley from Iowa and I participated in the Oversight hearing in North Charleston on the NLRB investigation of Boeing. Tried to call in but line is busy. Repub Congressmen @ the hearing complained about the NRLB wasting taxpayer money, but Gov. Haley admitted to me that Boeing was the largest corporate welfare recipient in South Carolina history: the taxpayers are giving Boeing a $900 million tax break to move these jobs from Washington to South Carolina. So much for letting the “free market” dictate economic decisions. I also pointed out that interfering with an ongoing adjudicative procedure of a federal agency is no different than jury tampering, which is a federal crime.

    Bruce Braley, First District of Iowa

    • Modavations

      That is the Free Market,sort of like playing chess.All states tempt co.s with tax incentives,because in the long run,it is profitable,or not

    • Cory

      Bravo!

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Mr. Braley, there is a large difference between wasting Federal tax money and what a state decides to do with its resources.  Last I checked states rights were protected under our US constitution.  If they spend these resources poorly then SC voters will send them packing.
      However, I want to commend you for contributing to this interesting but unnecessary debate.  I find the issue of congressional over site vs. overreach very interesting as well.  Congressional abuse (eg. Roger Clemons) has been rampant in the past but I’m not so sure in this case because there is a real public interest that could affect 1000 workers in S.C.

      • EducateDemocrats

        Last time I checked, the WORKERS are also protected underneath the same constitution – a few congressional acts as well.  This is a lose lose for all American workers as a whol

    • twenty-niner

      Congressman,

      Where’s the hand-wringing over this:

      “GE moving X-ray business to China”

      http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-26/business/29817324_1_ge-healthcare-x-ray-business-china-last-year

      “G.E. to Share Jet Technology With China in New Joint Venture”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/18/business/global/18plane.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

      I’ll be happy to provide dozens of more such examples to you and your staff. What you people in Congress should be worried about is how to keep jobs in the UNITED STATES and not so much about what state within the UNITED STATES their in!

      Good lord, we are doomed.

      • twenty-niner

        “they’re in” to correct my English

    • Anonymous

      Go Bruce!!

  • Rick

    Tom – listen to Mr. Epstein. You’ll learn a lot more than by interrupting to ask silly questions.

  • Charles

    Not half as damaging as the Unions are the subsidies Boeing recieves. This company is heavily subsidized by tax-payer money. This company is basically “carried” by the public.

  • TFRX

    “It’s not an accident that union participation has gone down from 35% to 6%,” per Epstein.

    Getting fired for union organizing activity isn’t an accident.

  • Janmcginn

    I recently visited Seattle and made my way through various neighborhoods with a local who had grown up in the northwest in the 50s and 60s – we came upon a spectacular marina out on the Sound that was OVERFLOWING with magnificent yachts.  No similar marina exists anywhere in Boston – the concentration of wealth was stunning by any measure.  My friend noted the changing face of Seattle that the marina represented as follows:  ”Boeing created a middle class for Seattle; Microsoft has provided real wealth”.  Perhaps Boeing is moving away from its middle-class roots?

  • Winston Smith

    The point made by the last caller is interesting.  The Obama Administration has to enforce the Wagner Act regarding not punishing workers for their right to strike because it is the law.  But the Obama Administration has chosen not to defend the Defense of Marriage Act because they favor the perversion of gay marriage.  So they choose which laws they will follow and support and which they won’t.  I am sure that are able to come up with some twisted logic that allows them to justify the hypocrisy.

    • Anonymous

      They are enforcing DOMA.  They are not defending it in court. 

    • Cory

      Same sex marriage being a “perversion” is your opinion, that is at least slightly different than a LAW.  I call bullshine on your analogy/comparison.  Talk about twisted logic. 

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      The Obama Administration believes DOMA to be unconstitutional.  That’s the difference.

    • Kmh5004

      this isnt defending the law, its enforcing the law.  There is a difference.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      What about jailing ALL the child-molesting, and child-abusing priests, and clergy of the Roman Child-Molesting Church, and the higher-ups that covered up these crimes, so the criminals could commit more?

  • Hugh Loeffler

    Didn’t Ronald Reagan do the same thing (punitive actions against unions) in the early 80s with firing ATC’ers ?  How was that defended.
    Hugh Loeffler (Lefler)
    Lexington KY

  • Dave

    Could the dispute be resolved as a win for all sides (and the nation) if Boeing were to open an additional line for 3-4 large planes in Washington state with union employees and continue operating the South Carolina plant?  This would accelerate deliveries, which have fallen behind, and provide additional jobs at a critical time in our recovery from the recession.  While it would increase the average cost of the planes, it would prove that Boeing is not making the move to punish union workers.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paul-Nevins/100000745772058 Paul Nevins

    If Boeing and other corporations are now persons within the meaning of the law, they have an obligation to be good corporate citizens and to act in the public interest. There is a direct correlation between the decline in the percentage of unionized workers and the declining wages of the middle class. The National Labor Relations Act was passed to ensure the rights of all workers to unionize; its provisions have been systematically gutted ever since. The U.S. has the weakest labor laws in the Western world. Why shouldn’t the NLRB – at very least – enforce the NLRA’s anti-retaliation provisions that protect the rights of all citizens? South Carolina’s willing participation in the “race-to-the-bottom is evidence that its voters are unable to comprehend that their true self-interests are inextricably linked to those of everyone else in this country who works for a living.
     Paul Nevins
       Boston

  • James

    Is there a way that the listeners can hear a meaningful discussion instead of two grumpy old men attacking each other?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Nope–this episode’s a loss

  • Dpweber83

    Today’s show is awesome so far.

  • Anonymous

    What? a law professor, Richard Epstein, is telling another professor that he does not have real job? This man is a jerk, period.

    • Anonymous

      He is worse than the usual right wing blogger.  His cranks rants haven’t added to the discussion. 

  • chaosnat

    Is it a co-incidence that the same period which saw decline in union participation also has seen the decline in the american middle class.

    • Freeman

      Without a doubt; NO co-incidence.    Sadly it is all by DESIGN; to take the power away from the people.  Bye- Bye democracy. Hello Egypt,England, Syria, Israel and who knows how many more..  GOVERNMENT just don’t get it ???

    • Cory

      Impossible!

  • paul from nocho

    If Boeing didn’t want to take the risk of building a plant they would never use, perhaps they should been more careful to stay strictly within the law. Because labor laws have so rarely been enforced in the past, Boeing evidently thought they faced no risk. Good for the NLRB!

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Just what we need:  More voices in this cacaphony.

  • John

    how about a union without membership dues, your only obligation is to organize and vote in canidates that believe in worker compensation. seems to me that most uinions allocate funds towards lobbyists. people wanting change in the workplace need to understand it takes more effort than a tarriff on their paychecks.

    • Tony

      that would be nice, but we live in a world where organization need money to survive . . .

      • Cory

        Money IS speech in America.  “Citizens United”, my friend!

  • John

    It figures that Epstein is a fellow at the Hoover Institution.  Our country’s severe income imbalance is a direct consequence of the ignorant, vicious anti-labor, anti-union and elitist policies advanced by ivory tower idiots like Epstein.  If he is actually a lawyer, he needs serious CLE training, because he sounds like a complete fraud.

  • Tom

    South Carolina is a mess — terrible education system, living off federal money for under-insured health system, and, like Texas, little career opportunity in the low wage jobs they create. The right-wing wants their people in underpaid jobs, undereducated so that they can brainwash them, putting the people into deep debt for health and education, and using federal money to bail out their terrible right-wing policies. The former Soviet Union had a better quality of life. These red states are becoming like third world countries because of there right-wing politicians and union bashing and leaching off the national system.

    • Anonymous

      It might interest you to learn that the Democratic Party in SC is complicit in maintaining a lack of accountability in the state’s public schools. A Democratic bastion in the state, Dillon County, does not have one single solitary elected school board member, in spite of two voter referenda calling for elected boards. With this kind of anitpathy towards the public on display, who needs friends, hunh? (Oh yes, and President Obama campaigned there in 2007 and has rewarded the County with a promise of $35 million to replace a school campus that’s barely twenty-five years old!)

      • Benjie Westafer

        Do you have a link? I’d like to read more about this. Hmmm, maybe I should Google it:

        http://scthenerve.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/popular-elections-in-dillon-schools-on-hold/

        Now I am really confused. This site reports that the Democrats are in favor of an elected school board.

        • Anonymous

          Benjie: thanks for your interest. In point of fact, a close reading of Mr. Brundrett’s piece shows that the political establishment in Dillon County is resorting to FURTHER stalling tactics. The unelected county board has maintained its status for over twenty years already following the first non-binding referendum, and now it is posing “district consolidation” as the excuse not to institute elected boards sooner rather than later. So yet another school years passes for the residents of Dillon County without the accountability that comes of having elected school boards. It remains the case that Sen. Obama campaigned locally using one derelict school building on the campus as a backdrop for his nomination acceptance video in Denver, and he has since promised $35 million to fund a new school campus that in itself will do next to nothing to improve educational outcomes for students already poorly served by an unresponsive “public school” administration. –It also remains the case that the Rep. Hayes mentioned throughout the article is himself an EMPLOYEE of the District! (The bare appearance of only a minor conflict of interest, I am sure.) The circumstances of his political support in the County are tied directly to the interests of the Country Board that STILL refuses to allow elections of school board members, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century. And the political establishment of this County is solidly aligned with the Democratic Party. Please explain if you care to the discrepency between avowed support of public schools by the national Democratic Party establishment with this example of anti-democratic policies and practices that undermine the performance of “public” schools. 

        • Anonymous

          Benjie: thanks for your interest. In point of fact, a close reading of Mr. Brundrett’s piece shows that the political establishment in Dillon County is resorting to FURTHER stalling tactics. The unelected county board has maintained its status for over twenty years already following the first non-binding referendum, and now it is posing “district consolidation” as the excuse not to institute elected boards sooner rather than later. So yet another school years passes for the residents of Dillon County without the accountability that comes of having elected school boards. It remains the case that Sen. Obama campaigned locally using one derelict school building on the campus as a backdrop for his nomination acceptance video in Denver, and he has since promised $35 million to fund a new school campus that in itself will do next to nothing to improve educational outcomes for students already poorly served by an unresponsive “public school” administration. –It also remains the case that the Rep. Hayes mentioned throughout the article is himself an EMPLOYEE of the District! (The bare appearance of only a minor conflict of interest, I am sure.) The circumstances of his political support in the County are tied directly to the interests of the Country Board that STILL refuses to allow elections of school board members, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century. And the political establishment of this County is solidly aligned with the Democratic Party. Please explain if you care to the discrepency between avowed support of public schools by the national Democratic Party establishment with this example of anti-democratic policies and practices that undermine the performance of “public” schools.
          Also, thank you for alerting me to the Nerve piece. I’m glad to see that Mr.
          Brundrett has kept his eyes on the story. It is a distinct pity that the SC
          Democratic Party has not publicly disowned the blatant anti-democratic
          practices of the Dillon County Democratic Party.

  • Modavations

    You are now witnessing why co.s flee the US

    • Anonymous

      or how they fleece us

      • Cory

        Ooh, you beat me to it! 

    • Cory

      They flee the US to reduce labor costs and avoid regulation.

  • steve

    we need more debate like this, but can I mention how inefficientt management can be, the stupid inefficient,  money wasting decisions that some of the middle management makes to fuel their egos rather then promote business or profits or share holder value.

  • Charles

    In Sept. 2005, the W.T.O found that “huge subsidies paid to Boeing since the early 1990s are illegal.” Yet, they are sidestepping Unions. First they are allowed to recieve our money, then complain they cannot give any of it back in decent wages, supporting Unions.

  • Rick

    Richard Epstein might be a grumpy old man, but he is also brilliant. I suggest listening closely, and start reading everything he has ever written. You will be educated …

    • Tony

      That’s nonsense. I have read his stuff and he’s an ideological hack. 

  • Suzie in Newport, RI

    The obvious solution is for the South Carolina workers to unionize and stand in solidarity with their Washington comrades. 

    • paul from nocho

      They can’t. Right to work mean no right to unionize. That simple.

      • Markus

        Well, not quite. Ok, not at all.

        It means that there can’t be an agreement between an employer and a union to force all workers in that shop to join the union. So, you have just as much right to unionize, but you are not forced to do so.

        • paul from nocho

          And without that agreement to “force” all workers into a union (which, incidentally, represents those workers in negotiations with management to the great benefit of the workers) the employer can simply hire a majority of non-union workers and make the union irrelevant.

          Right to work = no right to be in a union. Otherwise, duh, why would Boeing be doing this?

      • Tony

         right to work does not mean no right to organize in the private sector. Not even close. But it is more difficult to organize in the south.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      It’s not as easy to form a union in some states.

    • twenty-niner

      solidarity with their Washington comrades

      Esli xotite byt’ Chkalovymi, to vypolnyajte prizyv nashego vozhdya i
      uchitelya Stalina: uchites’, uchites’ i uchites’, chtoby dognat’ i
      peregnat’ kapitalisticheskij mir!!

  • X-Ray

    The situation is misrepresented; the Dreamliner production is not being moved, only a second line is being opened in SC. A production line still exists at the Seattle union plant. The union jobs are not being lost, only the greed of the union to take all the work is being limited.

  • Charles

     in March 2007 the E.U. complained that Boeing recieved 27 Billion dollars in us subsidies!

    • Modavations

      What about the Airbus subsidy

  • Anonymous

    How can the NLRB be involved when there isn’t a single boing employee in Washington State that will be affected by this?

    Nothing is being moved as far as I know.  Boing just decided to expand in another state!

    The NLRB should not make it easier to move jobs out of the US than expanding in multiple states in the US

    • Cory

      Boing!  Boing!

  • John

    when workers in other nations finally realize $3 a month is disproportionate to the $300k per month they too will feel pretty good about organizing, companies relocate to other nations because the leaders dont give a crap about their own people.

  • Anonymous

    I am hearing a lot of Ideological arguments….  But what are the FACTS of the CASE?  How can I make a valid judgement about the merits of the case itself without knowing what FACTS have or have not been cultivated by the NLRB?

  • dan

    Why should the american worker think they somehow are worth more per hour than the workers of other nations.  Jobs will not come back to america until the wage/benefits of the american worker are competative globally.  The fifty years of dominance by the USA is over.  Get real and learn to compete globally.  Labor cost are a major consideration.

    • paul from nocho

      If you’re willing to work for Shanghai wages, you’re welcome to it. Good luck paying for housing and healthcare in the real America.

      I’d much rather lift workers around the world to the dignity and worth American workers once enjoyed… with union protection.

      • Benjie Westafer

        If all nations were equal, Dan, you’d have a point. I think you might consider things other nations’ workers can rely on: a strong social safety net, free health care, public transportation, centrally planned infrastructure that supports the ambitions of these larger companies. That and you have to be comfortable with a maximum of $800 a month in wages:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_in_China_(PRC)

    • mary elizabeth

      We cannot compete globally until we resolve our health care issue  Most nations have universal health care which takes a huge burden off employers.
      It is hard to agree to compete globally i.e  work for 14.00 an hour when a 30 year old Wall Street worker became a multimillionare  last year.  And when the CEO”s  pay is 26 times the worker.

    • Cory

      He is right.  Without protectionism and self sufficiency, most of us will be dirt poor.

  • Modavations

    Now I understand why I continually hear from business leaders, that this is the most antibusiness regime in history.How about the deal in Alaska with Exxon(?).They spent 2 bill.on a “state of the art oil facility”,only to have it shut down over a trumped up environmental issue

    • TFRX

      You keep saying that about most antibidness in history, oogedyoogedyboogedy. This isn’t a Foxnation thread. Why should we believe you with no reputable link?

      • Modavations

        just google it

      • Modavations

        I speak,French,Spanish,English.Please translate

        • Anonymous

          and Fauxish apparently too!

    • Cory

      Being “pro business” isn’t some sort of utopian dream.  China is very pro business, and I’m not anxious to live that existence.

      • Modavations

        Crony Capitalism just like GE-Obama.What a deal Obama even gets two TV outlets.In China you disappear

  • Tom

    State education ranking shows Vermont #1, South Carolina last. This is a result of extreme right-wing policies. It is in the interests of the right-wing to have an under-educated population. Unions demand good education for their children, and the right-wing does not want a population than can think, analyze, compare and come to their own conclusions.
    All problems of society have to do with education.

    • Geri

      Talk about a non sequitur – you’re a moron!!!!!!!

      • Cory

        Please delete Geri’s comment.  It violates the specifically listed rules of this forum.

        • Modavations

          spoken like a true totalitarian.Should we start the “book burning”?

      • Anonymous

        too bad all the big words in his post throw you for a loop – moroon!

    • Anonymous

      Tom: see my reply below to your earlier post. Explain, please, how a “progressive” Democratic Party could restrict voting rights for a County’s entire population just so its party hacks can administer a local (poorly performing) school district and keep accountability out of the administration of public education? And explain how some “progressive” President like Barack Obama can reward this suppression of voting rights just to appease a local Democratic constituency? In Dillon County, at least, no “public schools” worthy of the name exist and consequently merit no public support, without the level of accountability that comes with elected office for its school board members.

      • Anonymous

        what your earlier post was debunked so you thought you would add it again?

        • Anonymous

          crm65: my earlier post was not in fact debunked. See below my reply to Bernie, and you can respond or reply to it, too, if you care to.

    • Cory

      Yeah well I didn’t have to be some sort east coast Ivy-League egghead to know that right to work states do poorly in edumacation!!

    • Modavations

      Prez.Obama’s first move was ending Wash.D.C.’s private voucher system

  • http://twitter.com/_MattMcGuinness Matthew McGuinness

    Hello.   The Congressman from Iowa’s comments were excellent.  Also can’t help but silently scream every time some freshwater, super-duper-neoclassical, free-market, laissez-faire, john galt-ish intellectual superhero(!)  tries to turn what is a legal fact inot an argument about the great microeconomic shibboleth of “productivity” …

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439572620 Joe Lee

    What a mess.

    This is a tragic example of what happens when both sides are unable to understand the bigger picture of the issues and let greed, spite and ignorance prevent a great company with great employees from reaching a greater potential by working together. 

    Corporations are singly focused on their own interests.

    Labor and unions are singly focused on their own interests.

    This is a sub-optimal system. If both sides would choose to work together, they could both gain benefits greater than what they are getting now. The labor vs. corp. battle is a classic prisoner’s dilemma situation, and both sides are choosing themselves over the whole and the whole is losing. 

    • Terry Tree Tree

      There are FEW companies that take that attitude!  That’s why workers have unionized to get job-safety, some fair treatment, and more decent pay!   Look at the compensation of executives in companies, and their actual output, then at the compensation of the workers that build the product, or provide the service, and their actual output, and tell me who needs to give back more to be fair!

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439572620 Joe Lee

        And your comment highlights the difficulty of the situation. There is so much mistrust and animosity on both sides that no one is willing to back down. 

        Labor and corporations are linked. One cannot exist without the other. You can say that corporations struck first, but labor has no claim to any moral high ground. 

        • Terry Tree Tree

          Open GREED, versus striving for job safety, less harassment (sexual, or other), decent working conditions, and a living wage?   What makes an executive, who’s choices put a company into bankruptcy, worth 200 to 1000 times more than the workers putting the product together, or giving the actual service?  Please give me ten examples of companies that folded, that could not have survived, or even thrived, with more creative management!

  • Charles

    The elephant in the room is subsidies, subsidies, subsidies!  Boeing is kept afloat by taxpayers. It’s called welfare for the rich!

    • Tom

      “Boeing is kept afloat by taxpayers.”

      And so is South Carolina.

      • Modavations

        Tom A is kept alive by tax subsidies

  • GSC

    Professor Epstein’s position in general that the US would be better off without “monopolistic” unions is nothing less than a frontal assault on the right to bargain collectively.  A hard won right that the unintelligent among us do not sufficiently appreciate to be a counterbalance against the recent patterns of wealth distribution to the owners from the pockets of their employees.  The fact that unions had seen their influence erode since the Reagan era is sufficient to disprove that unions hold any monopoly in any product or geographic market.  Finally, the idea of Boeing bargaining to impasse as justifying its subsequent actions fails to take into account that bargaining must be in “good faith.”  I don’t see how that is possible if Boeing were motivated by anti-union animus.

  • Charles

    The only thing “impressive” about Boeing is how much tax-payer money they recieve in taxpayer benefits: Subsidies!

    • Ryan_hennings

      You mean the subsidies as in tax cuts?  What’s wrong with one of America’s top employers getting tax cuts?  Your statement insinuates those tax subsidies belong to someone else, such as the government.  When did it become so taboo for a company to make an profit? Wait…I mean “EVIL profit”.

      • Anonymous

        I can’t think of any company less deserving of MY tax dollars……come to think of it, I CAN think of many corporations that don’t deserve a red cent of MY tax dollars

  • Freeman

    Tom;
            Jay from Hardyville has it right. What kind ofAmerica do you want to live in. Third world status is ” NOT acceptable”. The Middle class is WHY America is were it is at. Destroy the Middle Class-Destroy the Economy !!

    • Freeman

      Stand corrected ; ” where it is at” – Sorry

  • TFRX

    God, we’re going to listen to Darrell Issa?

    The man is a hack. He has nothing to add to this except how many things he can get wrong while in the cozy womb of Fox News.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Would Epstein please explain how workers can deal individually with the corporation on equal terms without a union?

    • Anonymous

      Is Google unionized? Wouldn’t we ALL like a job there??

  • John

    no subsidies no unions, solves two problems at one time

  • Anonymous

    Amazing issue. Great show. But it’s almost a distraction from a real argument with astonishing examples of opportunistic framing by South Carolina apologists (not to mention the anti Obama theatrics), and Epstein’s bewildering ideological sophistry.

  • Charles

    Here’s another interesting Boeing headliner off the interenet. Just Google Boeing Subsidies: “Boeing tanker strategy shifts $600 million to taxpayer Boeing. . . ”

  • Anonymous

    This is one of those shows that reminds me of WW1. Both sides are well dug in their respected trenches and are just not gaining any ground.

  • gene from burke hollow, vt

    What a great show! I have been listening since the first shows (coming up on the 10th anniversary?)–normally I dislike the yelling and scripted screaming of Fox type shows –but the passion of today’s guests was an authentic palate cleanser.

    Keep up the great work, Tom & Co.

  • Cheryl in Virginia

    In response to recent caller…  I was born and raised in West Virginia.  The state is a perfect example of what is wrong with unions.  The coal companies are rich, the UMWA is rich, Richard Trumka is rich and the West Virginia mine workers and their families are POOR.

    • Cory

      They’d be better off w/out them, wouldn’t they?

  • Ray

    People should remember why unions were started in the first place. Unfortunately, management has, from time to time, sometimes violently, abused workers. Union rights are an important counterweight to keep management walking the straight and narrow.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439572620 Joe Lee

      True, but the unions are guilty of their share of abusing power too. I’m not saying unions aren’t needed, but I’m also not saying that their actions are completely just. 

      It’s not at simple as good guys vs. bad guys. It’s a melee among the grey.

  • Mpyatt

    I was an employee at McDonnell Douglas for 12+ years and Boeing post merger. I was new on the shop floor for 2 weeks when the UAW shop steward came up to introduce himself. He stated quite firmly that I did not have to worry about my job, if I only drilled one hole a day and it was a quality hole, the Union would protect me! My job required close to 300 holes and fasteners to be complete, having just come out of service with the USMC this was easy work! I told the steward to leave me alone, the company pays my wages not the UAW. The UAW has a long history of simply fighting management for the sake of a fight to look good for the membership and does NOT have their best interest at heart. When Long Beach, Ca Douglas A/C plant closed 48,000 jobs were lost! Nice Job UAW!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439572620 Joe Lee

      It’s sad to see an organization that was formed with good cause to fight against injustice turn around and perpetrate similar acts of injustice. 

      Both labor and management need to take a step back. They both can gain much more by working together than working against each other. Unfortunately, it takes reasonable individuals on both sides to do this, and given our current culture, the existence of enough of these reasonable people seems highly unlikely.

      • Mpyatt

        Joe, I totally agree! The crux of the problem is the lack of Leadership! This has impacted our country on so many levels in the private sector and in government.  That has never been more apparent than in the dealings with our congress. Politicians dance to the tune which best pleases their base and have abandoned the ability and their duty to make the tough choices for the good of us all….

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1439572620 Joe Lee

          I would have to disagree on the leadership part. The unfortunate fact is that there is leadership… a lot of leadership, just not good leadership.

          The real leadership in this country is no longer with the general public or even the politicians. With the rules around campaign finance declaring money as equivalent to speech and corporations as people, it is the groups who contribute to political elections that shape the US. 

          This environment makes it nearly impossible to elect someone who is not in some way corrupted by highly funded special interests. Anyone who tries to run on any platform that was not favorable to these interests, even though it would be in the interest of the nation, would simply be drowned by a pawn candidate chosen and heavily funded by special interests.

          And those that consider themselves the base for their respective parties are being use. They are constantly fed heavily skewed information in the form of political media paid for by special interests to turn them towards the chosen candidates for those special interests. 

          If you want to know who is the real leadership in this country, just follow the money.

          As long as people don’t question and debate the real issues using data instead of dogma, this unfortunate situation is not going to change.

  • Nicholschrisc

    Prof Woodward’s earlier comment about another Civil War over this was bizarre.  I’m assuming it was hyberbole but does he really want to draw more attention to South Carolina’s history of pride in supporting and fighting for slavery and oppressive evil?  If South Carolina truly sees this argument over this plant as a similar one to the Civil War then they as a people and we as a country are in grave danger.  Inciting a state to even consider a Civil War over states rights, oppression and money is an invitation to a fight South Carolina doesn’t want and couldn’t win.  Watch your words prof Woodward. You may invite a battle you can only lose.

  • Adrian from RI

    Obama’s NRLB case against Boeing is truly a stunning and obscene case of the war of this administration against American workers. My congressman just proudly told me that he is working with this administration on a “National Manufacturing Strategy.” Is the destruction of a one billion dollar manufacturing facility part of this “National Manufacturing Strategy?”
    A boss of mine used to tell me “that the stupid shall be punished” whenever I did something stupid. Indeed, we the stupid shall be punished.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Maybe killing the 1000 South Carolina is part of Obama’s new jobs plan he will announce after the vacation on Martha’s Vineyard.

      • TFRX

        Martha’s Vineyard?

        How dare he not be clearing brush in his pig farm in Texas, like a real man!

        • Worried for the country(MA)

          I agree.  Obama has better taste in vacation than W.

          • TFRX

            Well, when one is taking as many vacation days as Shrub was, it can easily slip into quantity over quality.

          • Modavations

            nothing but more infantilism

      • TFRX

        Wow. How unpredictable that slagging a Democratic president would come from you. And the RNC. At the same time.

        Anyone with hunt-&-peck skillz can easily find:

        “So far, President Obama has taken 61 vacation days after 31 months in office. At this point in their presidencies, George W. Bush had spent 180 days at his ranch where his staff often joined him for meetings. And Ronald Reagan had taken 112 vacation days at his ranch.

        Among recent presidents, Bill Clinton took the least time off—28 days.”

        (per CBS Radio’s Mark Knoller)

        • Modavations

          Are you capable of a ripost without the infantile name calling

          • TFRX

            Infantile…infantile…infantile. With no reason, you’ve been plastering this word everywhere today.

            Let me guess: Someone gave you a  word-a-day calendar.

  • TFRX

    Wait, a Republican senator (Lindsey Graham) threatenes to not confirm any appointees from President Obama?

    If he were to do that, how could we tell?

    A record number of filibusters and holds are never the story in the mainstream press. But the GOP is proving, month after month, that governance is not on their agenda.

    • Worried for the country(MA)

      Just like the Democrats refusing to appoint any of Bush’s NRLB appointees.  There were 3 open seats when Obama took office.

      • TFRX

        You don’t want to start playing this game.

        Really, you don’t. 

        • Modavations

          Stop the infantile name calling and respect another view.How do you expect to learn.I don’t need to listen to Rush,that’s my team.I listen to you guys to widen my perspectives

          • TFRX

            From the man who coined “professorette”, a plea for no more name calling. And somethign about Rush Limbaugh.

            In a thread mentioning not mentioning Rush, or with name calling.

            Wow.

  • Anonymous

    It is all about jobs, and Boing had the choice to create the most jobs outside Washington State, or less jobs in Washington state and they made the right decision.

  • odchere

    Unfortunate that your contributing Attorneys got involved in a shouting match.  Very disturbing form of aggressive debate used by Richard Epstein.  Please vet your contributors more carefully for civilized input.

    • http://twitter.com/_MattMcGuinness Matthew McGuinness

      Amen!

      • http://www.janesherrill.com Jane

        I was so upset about Mr. Epstein’s behavior that I turned the show off. This is fighting rather than discussion. It’s exactly what is wrong with our discourse today. It’s about winning and ego rather than coming up with the best solution/considering the big picture. I’m very tired of it!

    • M. E. Kabay, PhD, CISSP-ISSMP

      Very much agree. If students behaved the way your guests performed today, I’d throw them out of my class. I was so disgusted by the vitriolic interruptions and shouting that I turned off the program and started listening to some favorite heavy metal — far more civilized than the crude bullying I heard today. Suggestion to Tom: impose civility on people who cannot wait to speak by cutting off their microphone until they are ready to reason together.

      M. E. Kabay, PhD, CISSP-ISSMP
      Professor of Information Assurance & Statistics
      School of Business & Management
      Norwich University

      • Modavations

        Look at all the infantile,name calling from the participants, here.The Clash was the apex of Western Civ.!!!

        • Anonymous

          isn’t this the pot calling the kettle black?

    • LinP

      I agree. I turned it off. Richard Epstein was an outrage. At best he sounded like a petulant child, at worst someone unbalanced by narcissistic personality disorder. “You’re WRONG,” was his favorite screech. His whole screed on the productivity issue in the non-union plant was ABSURD, delivered with a pitch and tone that just made me cringe. He was the worst guest I can remember in a very long time.

  • Modavations

    About a month ago,a professorette,in charge of govt.school testing, said American students had the lowest tests ever,in all 7 disciplines.I blame the unions.Yes we needed unions,but that was 50 years ago.Now they are an adjunct of the Dem.Party.They give over 90% of their pol.monies to the Dems.That was the problem in Madison.

    • Anonymous

      The test scores are lowest in the South. 

      • Modavations

        She said nationwide,our kids had the lowest scores ever recorded, in all disciplines.This was about one month ago on Wash.Journal

        • TFRX

          I wasn’t going to ask what a “professorette” was, but apparently it’s a female professor.

          That’s an awfully pathetic turn of phrase, even considering.

          • Modavations

            lad,nothing but levity.That’s all.I graduated Newton North in 1969,then off to B.C.

          • TFRX

            It was funny when “Childrens Hospital” had a ’70s episode and the first woman MD was called a “doctress”. That was fiction.

            But from you, latent sexism is…levity. Nice to know that.

  • Modavations

    Gold is now over 1800.00.People buy gold because they know the hyper inflation is immenent(?).

  • Realist

    Auto Assembly work has nothing in common with making airplanes.  Even with the simplicity of auto assembly the only way SC could get the German auto plant was by, wait for it, revamping its community college system (damn socialists) to train workers to the standards that the Germans require.

    SC also offered Boeing a property 60% tax cut over what other companies pay.By the way Mypyatt, MD closed because it could not compete in the commercial marketplace. Boeing bought it only to get the C-17 contract. The last MD airplane was the C-17 which it screwed up, (wings cracking).  Its now fixed but as we know cost is no object with military contracts.  Here’s an example of the fine work of MD.March 3, 1974. In one of the most notorious and gruesome crashes ever, a THY (Turkish Airlines) DC-10 crashes near Orly airport killing all 346 passengers and crew. A poorly designed cargo door had burst from its latches, and the subsequent depressurization caused failure of the cabin floor and impairment of cables to the rudders and elevators. Out of control, the plane slammed into the woods northeast of Paris. McDonnell Douglas, maker of the DC-10, which would see even more controversy later, was forced to redesign its cargo door system.

    • Mpyatt

      1st, UAW is the United Aerospace Workers, 2nd, most crashes are the result of improper or poor maintenance on the part of the airline. Designs may have flaws, but I was there building the jets! I saw the quality as did our customers, they loved the planes. You are right, they couldn’t compete, delays in production and cost overruns could be directly related to the attitude of the UAW and lack of leadership within….

  • Tony

    Notice the Epstein did not engage with the caller who characterized his ideas as laughable. Epstein is so blinded by his ideology that he doesn’t know how to defend himself when someone challenges his assumptions. All that nonsense about the inefficiency of monopolistic labor is also laughable. When the other guest called him on it, he again failed miserably at defending his ideas.

  • mark mcnamara

    too many of us humans are not brought into life to create the highest probability of fully engaging the brain in more life…screw more life the suffering child says, i shall indulge my own brain and body in projecting my own dysfunctions onto everyone else in hope that you figure life out better that i have…outcomes are predictable and limited until the body breaks free, not such an easy task because of what happens to the functioning of the heart during the growing period ( do we ever stop growing if we want more life and the heart stays revved?)…so i have an idea for experiment…pregnant woman, 5 persons grounded in their own body touching the pregnant woman’ body in their own way of feeling her…during the entire pregancy and go with instincts of when to end it and welcome the new life…is not the function of males in our species only twofold…make the sperm an protect what is made and in so doing having an impulse to let all species thrive and expand into natural forms…making friends with natural enemies, that is the way of the war cycle…jesus was brilliant and a physicist more than a religious icon… pulses of energy go on the move, they encourage higher probabilities in the embryo of going the full reach of memory ( the biological line ) and doing all systems go in the context of this deep memory…nothing codes for a sluggish immune system under these condtions…trauma buries deep inside the bodies tissues, receptive to all emotions and sustaining emotions that don’t get much bang for the buck…eneough said for now
    thanks for the show

  • Modavations

    Now you know why so many leaders of business,consider this regime the most antibusiness in history.I hope you all read about the Polar Bears yesterday and another phony environmentalist.No wonder there are so many climate change skeptics

    • Anonymous

      Well it’s good to know that such right wingers such as yourself, are so on top of things.
      Presidents in this nation do not lead regimes for your information, and for as much as I disliked G.W. Bush I would never use language in this way.   You seem to be more interested in posting these absurd posts based on falsehoods. The level of incredulity in your hubris is astounding.

      Facts are stubborn things
      John Adams

      • Modavations

        That word usage is intentional

    • Cory

      How many times are you going to repost the same statement today?  It is an unprovable statement that doesn’t foster any discussion.  Was Rutherford Hayes or William McKinley more or less friendly to business?  Good Lord man, make an argument!

      • Modavations

        The business of america is business

      • Modavations

        until everyone thinks as i do

        • Terry Tree Tree

          To Infinity and Beyond!      Would you REALLY want everyone to think as you do?  Even as diverse as I am, I would find that infinitely BORING!!  Which Deity are you, that you hold ALL, and ONLY truth?

  • Earl Shepherd

    As an African American I find the issues of job mobility very interesting.  In the past when jobs held by African Americans were moved, few Americans saw that as a crisis.  The movement of jobs helped to destroy many stable black middle class families and created many of the problems we see today.  

    Similar problems are now being experienced by many whites in middle class America.  Its not a new problem, but, a structural one.  Americans have to ask some fundamental questions that they have avoided in the past.  Is it right to ask any hard working person with the appropriate skills to work for less than a living wage?  Is it right for our corporations to be able to transfer jobs outside the country to a system that is not a free market system?  Should our corporate leaders be able to make personal profit by eliminating jobs.  If personal wealth is your highest goal…is there any wonder that corporate leaders will sell their own workers or there jobs for personal profits.  Was this the basis of slavery?You have to ask if we live in a free market economy, and if not, who is choosing the winners and losers?  Finally, you should read (if you have not) Adam Smith’s, “Wealth of Nations”, but equally important, his “Theory of Moral Sentiments”.  I suggest these readings because they are often cited as the justification for our current system.  

    • Worried for the country(MA)

       Thank you for your perspective.  Very interesting.

    • Gregg

      ” Is it right to ask any hard working person with the appropriate skills
      to work for less than a living wage?  Is it right for our corporations
      to be able to transfer jobs outside the country to a system that is not a
      free market system?  Should our corporate leaders be able to make
      personal profit by eliminating jobs.”

      I don’t know if it’s right or wrong but those scenarios are absolutely the free choice of employers and employees. Employers can ask anything they want to and employees can answer any way they choose.

      “Was this the basis of slavery?”

      No, the basis for freedom and slavery are opposites.

  • Walterwz

    Just as Republicans NEVER negotiate in good faith, Corporate Management does not know the meaning of the concept. Business friendly equals Corporate Serfdom. 

    It is time to stop the hand wringing over this race to the bottom and take decisive action.

    When we are all reduced to serfs and slaves there will be jobs for everyone. 

  • Anonymous

    The crux of the matter is that Boeing’s unions are heart-scared that a non-union plant will prove to be more productive and more efficient and are doing as unions always do when they don’t get their way …  Using any means possible to protect their monopoly … in this case resorting to the NLRB and the courts. Union leadership has a vested interest in creating discord in ANY workplace in order to perpetuate the myth of their own necessity.

    Look for Boeing’s next move to be off-shore if this tactic is successful.

    “Unionism
    seldom, if ever, uses such power as it has to insure better work; almost always
    it devotes a large part of that power to safeguarding bad work.”

    Mencken, Henry Louis 1922

    • Terry Tree Tree

      So, YOU toil a sixteen-hour-day, for company script, in a very dangerous mine, or other environment, with a debt you can never pay off to the company?  And, if you try to leave, you have to face sociopathic hired-guns of company security? 

      Boeing is ALREADY off-shore!!   747 wings and tail assemblies made in China!  With the quality of your Chinese tools, will you feel more secure now flying in a Chinese-made plane?

    • Anonymous

      You’re not seriously suggesting that Boeing workers “toil a sixteen-hour-day, for company script” are you?
      You’d have the unions further impair American business’ ability to compete with China by preventing them from relocating to a more cost efficient labor environment???
      Unions have moved far beyond bargaining for wages and benefits and now demand to tell employers how & where to operate their businesses!

  • mgravel

    Why is it the people on the left are the one’s that want to restrict freedoms long before the people on the right do?  The only exceptions are abortion and gay marriage. 

    • Anonymous

      Really? How is giving people the right to form unions restricting freedom? Where do you get this stuff from?

      • Modavations

        Why do you think co.s flee from the US?

        • Terry Tree Tree

          GREED!!!  Shoddy products, poisonous products and foods, slave wages = MORE $Billions for Old-Boy-Network CEOS.   GREED!!

        • Anonymous

          Greed, period. Is it your intent to post these vacuous comments to get reactions or do you really think this way?

      • Gregg

        The right to form unions in the private sector already exist, it does not need to be given. I don’t know of anyone against that right. A restriction on freedom is taking away the right not to join a union as is the case in 28 states. Another is taking away the right for employees to have a say in which political party their mandatory dues are supporting. Another is a President restricting the right of a private business to choose which states they cannot build a factory in.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

          “To set the record (and the name) straight, right to work for less doesn’t guarantee any rights. In fact, by weakening unions and collective bargaining, it destroys the best job security protection that exists: the union contract. Meanwhile, it allows workers to pay nothing and get all the benefits of union membership. Right to work laws say unions must represent all eligible employees, whether they pay dues or not. This forces unions to use their time and members’ dues money to provide union benefits to free riders who are not willing to pay their fair share.
          Right to work laws lower wages for everyone. The average worker in a right to work state makes about $5,333 a year less than workers in other states ($35,500 compared with $30,167).[1] Weekly wages are $72 greater in free-bargaining states than in right to work states ($621 versus $549).[2] Working families in states without right to work laws have higher wages and benefit from healthier tax bases that improve their quality of life.
          Federal law already protects workers who don’t want to join a union to get or keep their jobs. Supporters claim right to work laws protect employees from being forced to join unions. Don’t be fooled—federal law already does this, as well as protecting nonmembers from paying for union activities that violate their religious or political beliefs. This individual freedom argument is a sham.Right to work endangers safety and health standards that protect workers on the job by weakening unions that help to ensure worker safety by fighting for tougher safety rules. According to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate of workplace deaths is 51 percent higher in states with right to work, where unions can’t speak up on behalf of workers.”  http://www.aflcio.org/issues/legislativealert/stateissues/work/

          • Gregg

            Unionize in the private sector all you can get a free people to support. Respect the 10th amendment and we’re good.

          • Former Harley employee

            You’re so wrong. Federal law does not protect workers who don’t want to join a union. I was forced to join the IAM to work for Harley-Davidson. They spent my dues contributing to things I did not agree with, and when the time came, they sold us down the river when the company decided they could make more money by outsourcing all of the manufacturing that they once did in-house. One of the reasons Harley couldn’t turn a good enough profit was because they couldn’t manage the business without compromising and giving in to the unions demands. The couldn’t fire anyone or even make people give an honest days work for a days pay.(which was good money). When they tried to fire someone, the union got the person their job back with back pay. It wasn’t worth it financially to Harley to spend that much money fighting the union, so the result was that we ended up with a lot of over-paid, lazy, everybody- owes-me-something people protected by the IAM. In the end, a lot of hard working people lost their jobs. The IAM did nothing to try to keep this from happening.The company that Harley contracted with in order to cut the workforce from 3300 down to 750 pays roughly 1/2 the wages Harley paid me for the same jobs. Rumor has it the IAM is trying to get in to organize this new company. They don’t care who they get their money from. Higher wages and healthier tax basis? I think not! 

    • Modavations

      Because they are totalitarian.Aniimal Farm….All animals are equal,but some are more equal.Look at the black man and the twentieth century plantation,they’ve relegated them to

    • Modavations

      Pol.correctness is nothing more then intellectual fascism

      • TFRX

        “Intellectual fascism”

        Everybody else: Thanks for calling, we have a winner!

  • Robscheerger

    These rules need to be national.  Washington state should be able to retaliate against South Carolina for allowing non union shops.  Otherwise capital will head toward the 3rd world country which is the American South.  This will slowly tear the Country apart.

    • twenty-niner

      “3rd world country which is the American South”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4s0nzsU1Wg

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

        Low wages and poor working conditions is nothing to proud of.

  • Modavations

    Union Business Plan:
             Give dues to Dem.,who give more benefits to unions,who give even more dues to Dems,etc,.What do you think Madison was about and why do you think FDR said no Public Employee unions.He knew they’d skew the pol.process

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Was it Union members, that got a $20 MILLION BONUS, for running GM into bankruptcy?  On top of a $ Multi-Million Salary, and $Millions in perqs?  Or was it the CEO, that is supposed to know what he is doing, and is supposed to do what is best for the company?  GREEDY Millionaires and $BIllionaires!!

  • Gnomeandcrone

    For shame!  I listen to NPR for reasoned, civil conversations, not imitations of Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Springer.  Please, you can do better than this.

    • Zing

      Actually, Rush predicted Obama’s failures during the ’08 campaign; you should have paid more attention

  • Anonymous

    People should not b bothered by this change by Boeing or any other corporation.Most southern states have coddled up to big businesses and have located shop as they get fancy tax breaks and can run rough shod over work rules etc.
    But instead of blaming corporations, we have to blame the people in those states & nationally our society. We have allowed ourselves to have our thinking done for us by others & so here we are. Will take  a revolution to swing the pendulum the other way, and for now the public has still got a lot to loose so nothing will happen.

    • Roy Mac

      We?  Our?  Speak for yourself, and don’t include me.

      • Anonymous

        Fair enough won’t include you or the 49% other folks who have voted, challenged and continue the struggle. But unless there is a critical mass/groundswell that wants real change things will take a slow drawn out battle, which suits many, they have the capacity to tire out/break down the masses and have them fall into line.
        I will applaud you on taking a stand with me, good for you Sir. Hope there are more like you.

        • UnionsFail

          wow… could you possibly be any more condescending?

  • roland

    Is Epstein the local manager of the plant or something? What a joker. 

  • Attilio

    And we are surprised why so much manufacturing is going to China?
    With NLRB like this, who needs enemies !!!!!!!

    • Terry Tree Tree

      You like it when someone breaches a contract with you, very much to your detriment?

      • agar

        He does, very much indeed. I imagine he would gleefully accept a dollar fifty an hour, as well. Of course, for the GOP, the law need not apply where union busting is concerned.

  • Attilio

    What’s the big deal. All the unions have to do is try to unionize the SC plant. Does the NLRB want another GM? This is obscene!!!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

      SC is a “right-to-work” or should I say “right-to-work-for-less” state making unionizing difficult. See my comment below.

  • SpokaneDemocrat

    From a solid Democrat and avid Obama supporter: The idea that the NLRB has the right to tell Boeing that it can’t relocate a plant in order to reduce labor costs is preposterous.  Obama should tell NLRB to drop this case, fast.

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Go work for Boeing in one of its China plants?

    • EducateDemocrats

      Another comment that does not make any sense… a long time position of the democratic party is to support unionization of workers as an equal party to large corps for the purposes of collective bargaining.  However you might feel about “unions”, it is this same prinicipal that improved working conditions after the early industrialization of America.  It also provided a mechanism for fair wages and protection against the greed of corporate owners (who were financially more powerful than their workers).   So why would Obama, a democratic president, make a move (inappropriate at best) to stop the interests of a government entity designed to protect the rights of workers?  And furthermore, what would be the benefit?  What many don’t realize is that this is a lose lose for both states.  One the net wealth of workers is reduced (i.e. increasing net profits of Boeing) and two the net impact to the economy is negative since lower wages also mean lower tax revenues paid on those wages. 

      Let’s get it together people.  Educate yourself and THINK!

    • Slipstream

      Hey there, Solid Spokane Democrat, if that is in fact what you are – why stop there?  Why don’t they just relocate to China and really reduce their labor costs? 

  • Jacksd3

    Boeing is moving to SC for lower wages – PERIOD! Race to the bottom. If you don’t see that then you aren’t looking or you own Boeing stock

  • Jmoranjackson

    labor is a factor of production

    it is boeings’ duity to find their their best location for less expensive more dependable labor

     it is S.C. USA not mexico

    • Terry Tree Tree

      Go work for Boeing in China?

    • Gregg

      Bingo.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

      SC today, Mexico tomorrow.  

    • FustratedbyIdiocracy

      And this comment right here highlights why many don’t understand the intricacy of this issue nor are willing to hear (fairly) both sides of the argument to make a more balanced opinion…

      but forget all that… just enroll in a constitutional law class people (at your local college). then come back and give a real opinion.

  • Emily

    Great job on the show Tom. Thanks for giving a hearing to such a contentious topic and dealing with it fairly.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

    “Fear the time when the strikes stop while the great owners live – for every little beaten strike is proof that the step is being taken …  ”- John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath

  • Joe

    Richard Epstein…..slightly to the right of Genghis Khan.

  • Jeff L

    Epstein is an adjunct at the Cato Institute, which was founded by one of the Koch brothers.  No street cred at all.  So why is this shill being given a platform???

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=658033938 John Graff

    Why are we allowing US corporations to export jobs and an anti-union model to the developing world instead of demanding fair labor and sound environmental practices from our trading partners to give US workers a level playing field? 
    http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/voiceatwork/efca/upload/logan.pdf

  • Billgrim

    This argument is beside the point.  The real point is that there is no more moral justification for renting people to work for corporations than there was for outright slavery.  If we are really a democracy then we should have democracy in the workplace every day not just the first Tuesday of every November.  All corporations should become cooperative, owned and managed democratically by their employees.  Then the employees can decide which state to have the factory in.

    • Anonymous

      They tried that in Russia in 1917 … It didn’t work.

    • Wbristol1

      How can one reply to a point of view such as this which is so far to the left that it makes our current executive leadership look downright conservative.  the day that happens will be the day that all workers lose any semblance of self-respect and individual worth.

  • Larry

    The actions of the US Government in this Boeing situation in South Carolina make it very clear to me why the United States has experienced the dramatic decline in manufacturing capacity in the United States.

  • Billgrim

    Kenneth Cloke and Joan Goldsmith – The End of Management and the Rise of Organizational Democracy (2002):
     ”It is possible to see slavery and serfdom merely as extreme early forms of autocratic management, in which employees had no voice whatsoever in the work process and were viewed not as human beings but as alienated forms of individual wealth.  Slavery, in this sense, did not die; it continues in modern dress in contemporary organizations wherever managers exercise autocratic power, unequal status, or arbitrary privileges, no matter how scientific the terminology or postmodern the image” (29-30).

  • Grant_cook

    Boeing is a pillar of US industry and in a pretty tough competitive fight with Airbus – one they could lose eventually, especially if the IAM strikes and shuts down production.  Bravo for the move… we don’t want Boeing turning into GM, begging for a bailout, because its unions killed their golden goose.

  • Mfaigin

    I loved that a couple of the guests went at each other!  It was a nice break from the usual civil discourse.  You should occasionally try and duplicate this result by finding “authorities” on an issue who can’t stand each other and are willing to say so on air.

  • Slipstream

    This Shaiken character – or was it Epstein – is a real hoot!  An honest-to-goodness, hot-blooded, anti-labor activist!  When you run into people who say public radio is too liberal, just let them listen to this guy go! 

  • Pingback: Dr. Woodward Comments in the News » South Carolina Economic Trends

  • JonS

    There is no greater example of Obama’s idiotic brain dead economic policies than Obama’s failure to stop this beaurocratic travesty.  Harley Shaiken exemplifies the point that if you can’t do anything useful, just teach. Total buffoon and clueless. Does anyone seriously believe that actions like this incentivize business to want to invest and expand in the US? Unbelievable. 

  • JonS

    There is no greater example of Obama’s idiotic brain dead economic policies than Obama’s failure to stop this beaurocratic travesty.  Harley Shaiken exemplifies the point that if you can’t do anything useful, just teach. Total buffoon and clueless. Does anyone seriously believe that actions like this incentivize business to want to invest and expand in the US? Unbelievable. 

  • Pingback: The NLRB Extends Its “Runaway Shop” Doctrine To Companies Expanding Operations In Right-To-Work States | BeLabor The Point – Labor & Employment Blog

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Apr 18, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks during a nationally televised question-and-answer session in Moscow on Thursday, April 17, 2014. President Vladimir Putin has urged an end to the blockade of Moldova’s separatist province of Trans-Dniester. Trans-Dniester, located in eastern part of Moldova on border with Ukraine, has run its own affairs without international recognition since a 1992 war. Russian troops are stationed there.  (AP)

Deadly clashes in Eastern Ukraine. A white supremacist rocks Kansas City. The Marathon bombing anniversary. And Bloomberg on guns. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Apr 18, 2014
This undated photo provided by NASA on April 2, 2014 shows Saturn's moon Enceladus. The "tiger stripes" are long fractures from which water vapor jets are emitted. Scientists have uncovered a vast ocean beneath the icy surface of the moon, they announced Thursday, April 3, 2014. Italian and American researchers made the discovery using Cassini, a NASA-European spacecraft still exploring Saturn and its rings 17 years after its launch from Cape Canaveral. (AP)

Oceans in Space. The new discovery on a moon of Saturn, and the possibility of life there.

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Apr 18, 2014
This undated photo provided by NASA on April 2, 2014 shows Saturn's moon Enceladus. The "tiger stripes" are long fractures from which water vapor jets are emitted. Scientists have uncovered a vast ocean beneath the icy surface of the moon, they announced Thursday, April 3, 2014. Italian and American researchers made the discovery using Cassini, a NASA-European spacecraft still exploring Saturn and its rings 17 years after its launch from Cape Canaveral. (AP)

Oceans in Space. The new discovery on a moon of Saturn, and the possibility of life there.

 
Apr 18, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks during a nationally televised question-and-answer session in Moscow on Thursday, April 17, 2014. President Vladimir Putin has urged an end to the blockade of Moldova’s separatist province of Trans-Dniester. Trans-Dniester, located in eastern part of Moldova on border with Ukraine, has run its own affairs without international recognition since a 1992 war. Russian troops are stationed there.  (AP)

Deadly clashes in Eastern Ukraine. A white supremacist rocks Kansas City. The Marathon bombing anniversary. And Bloomberg on guns. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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Our Week In The Web: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Space moon oceans, Gabriel García Márquez and the problems with depressing weeks in the news. Also: important / unnecessary infographics that help explain everyone’s favorite 1980′s power ballad.

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Some Tools And Tricks For College Financial Aid
Thursday, Apr 17, 2014

Some helpful links and tools for navigating FAFSA and other college financial aid tools.

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