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London In Flames As Riots Continue

We’re talking about the riots in London and beyond in the U.K. Why they’ve happened, what they’ve meant, what we’re seeing.

Firemen work in the area of Clapham in the aftermath left by riots in London. Several nights of rioting left trails of looted stores, wrecked cars and burned buildings across London and several other cities. (AP)

Firemen work in the area of Clapham in the aftermath left by riots in London. Several nights of rioting left trails of looted stores, wrecked cars and burned buildings across London and several other cities. (AP)

Four days and nights of riots in Britain have blasted stunning images out to the world.

Cities on fire. Whole London blocks ablaze. Looting and rampage that British police seemed powerless to stop.

Last night, quieter in London, but hot unrest in Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham. It’s been the worst British rioting in a generation. And along with it, a hot debate: is this the angry rise of the underclass, battered by government austerity measures, joblessness, hopelessness?

Or is this simple criminality, as the British prime minister declares?

This hour On Point: the message in the London riots.

-Tom Ashbrook

Towards the end of the hour, we’ll talk with New York Times reporter Steven Greenhouse about the Verizon strike.

Guests

John Burns, London bureau chief for the New York Times.

Bim Adewunmi, freelance journalist.

Laurie Penny, blogger at Penny Red

Map of U.K. Riots
View Map of U.K. Riots in a larger map

From Tom’s Reading List

The Wall Street Journal: “The strife also moved beyond London: In Birmingham, the U.K.’s second-largest city, police said they made a number of arrests after several shops in the city center were attacked, with some windows smashed and property stolen. In the northern city of Liverpool there were several criminal incidents, including some cars being set alight, a police woman said. Reports said the chaos spread to the western city of Bristol.”

The New York Times: “Prime Minister David Cameron pledged on Tuesday to flood the streets of London with 10,000 extra police officers and said Parliament would be recalled in emergency session after rioting and looting spread across and beyond London for a third night in what the police called the worst unrest in memory. ”

The Guardian: “The maker of the BlackBerry, Research in Motion, said on Monday night that it would co-operate with a police investigation into claims that its popular BlackBerry Messenger service played a key role in organising the London riots.”

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  • Alangignoux

    So sad, there are Arab youth who are dying for a better life with freedom and dignity while our kids steal trainers and plasma TV’s, it is the politically correct, “Me” generation who have decided to take advantage of low morale in the police force in order to gain, “Respect” unfortunately, they have no respect. Don’t be fooled, there were no political overtones as most of the teenagers did not know who the Prime Minister of the day was.

    • Dave

      I’m not sure what you mean by “politically correct”. Maybe I’m old, but I remember when “politically correct” was a phrase used to discredit public civility.

    • Cory

      Too easy to dismiss this all as Hooliganism.  Any group of humans contains some idiots.  I would expect uprisings to look a little different in the materialistic capitalist west than I would in the dirt poor fundamentalist authoritarian mid east.

      • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

        Well, I’ll take the easy way out then: It’s hooliganism fueled by social networking with an underpinning of unemployment frustration and a dose of professional victimhood.

        No doubt this is going to be happening more in the west now but to me it looks more like a dare for bored teens than a focused cause.

        • Cory

          I can’t really argue with you beyond saying “we’ll see”.  When I look at the site map, the scale of the events strikes me as being more serious than hooliganism.

          • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

            Social networking allows hooliganism to scale up fast.

          • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

            Social networking allows hooliganism to scale up fast.

  • Stford

    David Cameron implemented drastic cuts. Government have to give people a path out of poverty, without that you get the french revolution. 

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    Where is Harry Brown* when we need him.

    *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Brown_(film)

  • Cory

    I’m so glad to see this happening somewhere in the west.  Let all those with power and authority realize that you can only step on the neck of the masses so hard and for so long before they will lash out.

    It won’t happen here yet because we are quite a bit more fat and culturally immature than the nations of western Europe.

    I would rather see the western world BURN than live the rest of my life as a worm or insect beneath the heel of a corporate plutocratic boot!

    Give’m hell, Brits!

    • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

      Really? I doubt it Cory. I thought you said you own your own house.

      What will you do when someone less well off than you steps onto your property, tosses a rock through a window and attempts to burn your house down? Cheer them on? I sincerely doubt it.

      • Cory

        What good does my house do when Scott Walker takes my wife’s health insurance (she is a public librarian), and her job when his draconian cuts force municipalities to close libraries and pools?  What good is my house when I’ll have to sell it to pay for medication and healthcare when my body gives out and I can no longer work?  BTW, my house is a low value target (old farmhouse. $125,000 and falling apart).

        Sometimes its gotta be bigger than you and me, Richard.  The world has become grotesque in its inequity, and now we are told we need AUSTERITY?!  Absurdity is oozing from societies’ pores.

        • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

          I’m not defending Scott Walker and his ilk but rooting for rioters and looters who are going after shop and property owners isn’t the answer.

          I too am angry at health insurance providers, the state of Connecticut and Washington, DC but burning down neighborhood stores widens the divide and while I think Scott Walker should probably be in jail, I’m not going to toss a rock through his office window.

        • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

          I’m not defending Scott Walker and his ilk but rooting for rioters and looters who are going after shop and property owners isn’t the answer.

          I too am angry at health insurance providers, the state of Connecticut and Washington, DC but burning down neighborhood stores widens the divide and while I think Scott Walker should probably be in jail, I’m not going to toss a rock through his office window.

    • Steve

      I live in Milwaukee, WI.

      Not happy with Walker but understand the ethos.
      Not happy with what is happening in the city but understand the ethos.

      I believe the solution is beyond politics and the economy.

      Get to know your neighbors.
      Take care of them as you are able.
      Allow them to take care of you.

      Now a part of my story (thank you, Yar)

      My great grand parents immigrated to Western Wi in the early 20th century, just in time to invest in a farm and lose it in the 1930′s.
      Upon moving to Milwaukee, they invested in their neighbors, many of whom were African-American.
      During the riots of 1967, when many homes/business were torched/vanadalized my granparent’s home was protected by neighbors.

      This model is often repeated in many parts of the world,
      including with Muslims and Christians in the Middle East.

      Those you love will stand with you, regardless of affiliation.
      Expand the circle of those you love.

      • Anonymous

        Though it may sound trite to some, I think there’s definitely something to “getting to know your neighbors”. I wonder if we lost much of our social cohesion as we started commuting further and further to find “good” employment. Most of us (at least, in the US) spend all of our energy and creativity outside of our neighborhoods. By the time we get home, we’re exhausted, and if we spend much time with any other humans it’s probably online.

      • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

        Beautifully said Steve.

  • Ed

    England and Europe have stepped away from their Judeo-Christian roots and ridiculed them. One consequence is, besides for losing the truth, is that young people have no vision, no framework, no goals, no hopes. So, out of frustration, they turn to violence (or radicalism). This is the result of what Dawkins et al. feel obligated to promote. Compare them with the youth coming to World Youth Day on August 18-23 in Madrid.

    • Anonymous

      If only we could return to the days when people quietly bore the systemic tragedies of this life, in order to gain an afterlife where the last would be first. Oh, that people would ignore persistent feelings of hopelessness and powerlessness and live their life according to the dictates of men in funny hats.

    • Anonymous

      It is a lack of jobs and economic hopelessness fueled by Tory austerity measures not Dawkins that is to blame.  Just because the opiate of the masses has failed to keep them in line doesn’t mean they need more of it.  And demographically the people rioting are more likely to poor and uneducated who tend to be more religious.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      And we’ve never had riots in highly religious America…

    • BHA in Vermont

      Oh please. Only religious, ESPECIALLY Christian, people have morals?

      I guess all those priests that abused young boys weren’t actually Catholic, just impersonating them? And their overlords, who hid the abuse, shuttled the abusers around without even telling the receiving parish what they were getting – they were also Christian imposters?

      The people looting are taking advantage of the opportunity, just like the priests. Religious adherence, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paolo-Caruso/1778940602 Paolo Caruso

    What we are seeing here are the descendents of British colonialism, slavery and white indentured servitude, joined tentatively in a lowest common denominator to riot for lack of electronic entertainment and sportswear.  

    Imagine what happens when they run out of food.   Soon to come in USA. 

  • Dustin

    These actions show a growing problem amoung youths not only in the UK but in all of the “western” world.  Hooligans DO NOT act in mass groups on the scale we’re seeing in London.  People, including the media need to pull thier heads out of the sand an recognize that if young people cannot find employment.  It wont take long for fear and anger to begin rulling thier actions.

  • Dustin

    These actions show a growing problem amoung youths not only in the UK but in all of the “western” world.  Hooligans DO NOT act in mass groups on the scale we’re seeing in London.  People, including the media need to pull thier heads out of the sand an recognize that if young people cannot find employment.  It wont take long for fear and anger to begin rulling thier actions.

    • Cory

      Historically these are the times that nations begin wars, to be rid of some of these young men…

  • Anonymous

    United we stand, divided we fall…
    Is this not a manifestation of normal behaviour of any population?
    Place enough stress on a populace and individuals loose a sense of investment, membership or community.

    Poverty fans the flames of fundamentalist terrorism around the world.
    The Tea Party and Republicans true to their history fail to acknowleged history and human nature. Driving the US population further and further into poverty to the benefit of the wealthy only serves to rend the fabric of our society. This is a greater threat to the securty of our country than any single act of terrorism to date.

  • Michiganjf

    London riots fueled by disparities in income and opportunity?

    What does America have coming if Republicans continue serving as the elite’s lackeys, squeezing the poor to give to the filthy rich?

  • wauch

    If you continue to voice your outrage, fear, and questions in a polite manner and continue to be condescended or ignored eventually you will start to yell in order to get your point across. Was the burning of innocent people’s business fronts right? No but this is indicative of structural concerns that continue to be ignored in favor of fawning over Kate and whatever his name is or prepping for the $15.15 billion 2012 Olympics. They same happened in Watts, Detroit, Cleveland, Brooklyn etc when people saw that they were not taken seriously.

  • Anonymous

    If you expect people to participate in society, you need more carrot than stick.

  • http://twitter.com/wwwcash Criostoir

    Cameron reckons the British riots are nothing but criminality.

    What a pity he didn’t think the action of the financial sector was criminal.

    There is an imbalance in the world with way to many underprivileged compared to the tiny rich minority.

    There is not enough cake to go round so the rabble are looking for a decent working guillotine.

    • Anonymous

      The poor and dispossessed should always consider how their conduct affects others and refrain from doing things that harm other people’s physical and economic interests.  Wealthy financiers, energy traders, military-industrial contractors, on the other hand, don’t have to worry about the impact of what they do, just whether it will be personally beneficial to them.

  • Bruceguindon

    I have no doubt that this action is directed at those who have by those who have not’ and not a bunch of thugs just stealing some stuff from high end stores. this is an extension of the chaos that is erupting all across the world and I predict that it will touch every being on the planet and will become more entrenched as the governments continue to ignore the plight of those who have little to lose. Just look at the disparity between the wealthy and poor in this country, so how long will it take before those who have nothing take what they want, when they want     

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    When Los Angeles exploded after the Rodney King incidents, Korean shopkeepers defended their stores with rifles.  Perhaps the British gave in to gun control too soon.

  • Julia Tabor

    Why do people think this is all about some kids wanting new tops and trainers? The riots are clearly linked to Police violence and increased austerity measures effecting Britain’s underserved youth
    populations.  Tottenham’s
    unemployment figures are at 8.8% and are the largest in London with the area
    suffering more cutbacks, closures of public services and privatization than any 
    other area in the capital. This, coupled with a 75% cut to Youth Services by
    the local council, as well as the continuation of the Tories’ agenda of
    austerity, means the majority of people in Tottenham who will be affected by
    these measures will be further angered and disengaged by constantly having the
    message “keep calm and carry on”  

  • Michiganjf

    TWITTER:

    It’s been amazing to see how Twitter has served the public in the revolutions of late in Islamic countries, but it’s absolutely terrifying to now know that Twitter can also be used by hooligans destroying whole parts of a city like London while trying to evade the police.

    This is tragic.

    • Cory

      Just Hooligans, ey?

      • Michiganjf

        I get your point, but I would indeed call the looters “hooligans,” especially considering they are destroying their own neighborhoods for TVs and brand name shoes and hoodies.

  • william

    The UK government sits on the sidelines while many businesses and jobs are being destroyed by these thugs.

    • Cory

      Don’t worry, massacres may not be far off (all over the western world).

  • John in SC

    When we dismantle our government, we end up with anarchy. And we do all of this because we’ve embraced the idea that “government” is the problem.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      When was the British government dismantled?  It’s a nanny state with Orwellian overtones.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    My how the Empire has fallen.  When a nation whines over thugs being punished and disarms its good citizens, the result isn’t surprising.

    • Cory

      Oh Greg.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Summer classes are over, so I’m back…

        • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

          Welcome. Hope you learned some new things…

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            I usually do, especially when my students make intelligent comments.

          • Steve T

            And there you have it the teacher learns from the students. Well at least someone is learning. Really I’m glad that you have intelligent students.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            A few in each class–far too few, alas, and in most cases, it’s their choices that limit them.  I do love it when I see a student wake up–emerge from the cave, if I may refer to Plato.

          • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

            In my experience teaching (20 years) 1 student out of 100 (getting it) is worth the price.

  • Guest

    This is exactly similar to the riots in Vancouver after the Stanley Cup – two months ago… I would no isolate this at all to the UK.

  • BHA in Vermont

    Destroying your own neighborhood. Something I’ll never understand. Like the people who riot after their team wins OR loses the Superbowl or Stanley Cup or World Cup or whatever.

    I trust our congress is paying attention. At least some of this is due to the widening wealth gap and austerity measures in England. Don’t think for a minute it can’t and won’t happen here. Most people are willing to suck it up IF they feel there is equanimity in the sacrifice. The Republican – Tea Party “no new revenue, no asking the well off to contribute” does not lead to a feeling that “we will solve this debt problem together”.

    • Julia Tabor

      When your prospects of ever owning property in the place you live get whittled down further and further each respective year, you pay gouged out prices for the most basic of necessities or face a 1/2 hour (or more) commute via public transportation to your nearest moderately priced grocery store, and no one is listening I am willing to bet it no longer feels so much like “destroying your own” anything…

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Mr. Burns, when a society doesn’t insist on being responsible for one’s self or being able to be so, this is the result.

  • Bill

    UK has held many of these people, neighborhoods separate for years – and now they are amazed they don’t behave like the rest of British society.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Burns just said that most of the rioters were white.

  • Ellen Dibble

    John Burns’ “idyl” that he says he carried around for 40 years — he as a Scot — was an idyl of a well-run, civil society, I believe you could characterize it.
        Hmm, we Americans (the WASPS among us) figured out the hollowness of that idyl centuries ago.  
        I can understand London’s employed taking this action.  Hold on a minute, I’ll explain.

  • Julia Tabor

    Its scary how our own government seeks to mirror the same kinds entitlement cuts partially responsible for the London Riots. Our representatives who were so quick to put the LEAP educational funding on the chopping block would be wise to observe that earlier this year Britain’s Education Maintenance provision was neatly severed along with much funding for its public libraries…

  • Sara Wood

    I’m so glad you’re back, Tom Ashbrook!!

  • Michiganjf

    I was astounding by the extremely realistic and prescient view of the world (exemplified by the UK) presented in the film “Children of Men.”

    I’m not referring to the plot line of the infant/mother, which was wholly symbolic, but rather the vision of the neglected masses juxtaposed with the wealthy, the suppression of the chaos by an overwhelmed, militarized police force, the racial/ethnic tensions, and desperate people who pursue tragic and wrong remedies for all the right reasons.

    I couldn’t watch the images of looting in London without images from “Children of Men” being evoked repeatedly.

  • jim

    This is definitely a prelude to come in the US if American politicians continue to suck up to corporations and continue to widen the gap between the have and the have not. Communism and Fascism were bornt because of selfish politicians who care for themselves and only themselves and nothing else.

  • Dave in CT

    Send a strong signal to feral youth. Send Wall St. class looters to jail.

  • Ellen Dibble

    The animal spirits running wild in London, why those same animal spirits brought the Puritans to Plymouth.  (More or less.)
         Teachers, maybe worldwide, like mothers, know how to bring out the best in people, and know the huge potential in any individual.
         Employers, people who believe them to be a “cut above,” Not So Much.  They tend to treat people in ways that depress intelligence and depress self-regard.
        And so you get people in a culture of anything goes because — “feral youth and a culture of indiscipline.”  I quote Burns and Ashbrook reflecting it.  Just like teenagers who don’t respect their parents, this behavior reflects something in the culture.  If the only way to be noticed and treated as a Grown-Up with grown-up potential is to be violent, then that’s what you get.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      These hooligans are like the Puritans?  The Hoodies, rather than the Roundheads?

      • Ellen Dibble

        They were extremists, outsiders, uncompromising and determined not to be excluded, to have a fair chance to thrive on their own terms.  Right?

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          They had a guiding set of principles–wrongheaded, to be sure.  These hooligans are just criminals.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      These hooligans are like the Puritans?  The Hoodies, rather than the Roundheads?

  • Bruce

    I am reminded of Anthony Burgess’ prophetic novel,”A Clockwork Orange”.The novel,not the movie.Real horrorshow that.

  • Dave in CT

    I guess Britain is unveiling the left-wing Tea Party.

    Blame the rich mom and pop store owner.

    • Dave in CT

      Now riots down on Wall St. might make a little sense.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    We have the same discipline problem here in our inner city schools.  A child who behaves badly isn’t being bad; he’s obviously showing the results of racism, poverty, etc.

    Oh, please.  Behave or be put out.

    • TFRX

      I don’t know if you live in the suburbs as I do.

      In the suburbs in my part of the country much of the same behavior is characterized as blowing off steam, or hijinx, or “boys will be boys”.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        I’ve taught in a couple such inner city schools.  A zero tolerance policy about discipline has to be the foundation, regardless of the school.

        • TFRX

          Our media reflexively give a lot more leeway to misbehaving teenage males in the burbs (i.e. white). My wife’s job puts her in contact with inner city youth, and she chuckles at the shading evident on the evening news on a regular basis.

          • PaulCJr

            Yes I would also agree with this as well. But it’s not limited to white communities. If you community is richer, kids that live in these communities get a greater pass for their bad behaviour.

          • PaulCJr

            Yes I would also agree with this as well. But it’s not limited to white communities. If you community is richer, kids that live in these communities get a greater pass for their bad behaviour.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Responsibility doesn’t have a color, whatever the popular view holds.

        • Steve T

          Yes I agree with that, but it should start at home! Just try to get some parent to agree to let you discipline their child, You wanna fight will be the answer.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Yup, I had a mother storm into my classroom and tell me that I gave her daughter an F.  The child cursed at me every day, never did homework, and threw the test in my face, but I gave her the F.

          • Steve T

            That child had no respect, and you allowed it you never stopped it.
            She would have done that once to me and found herself in deep trouble.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            You don’t seem to understand.  My only option was to write a note to an assistant principal who would then ignore it or tell me that it was my fault.  Until we tell students that they have to bring a sense of duty and a desire to learn to school, teachers will have a limited opportunity to do anything.

          • Steve T

            That’s a shame seriously. I would have sent her to that assistant principal office and let her curse them.
            Disrespect should never be tolerated.

          • Ellen Dibble

            Easier said than done.
            I watched a child rearing local TV piece a few nights ago, with a child guidance person and a psychiatrist in the field, and they both agreed that unlike in their generations (one mid-40s, one a bit older), children could be disciplined, whereas now “that sort of treatment” is not tolerated, but is considered abusive.
                Are we living on Mars?  When did parents stop controlling kids?
                And they said that young teens can’t tolerate being with parents because it reminds them of days when they were little and treated as children, being cared for and directed.  And so the girls become non-stop critics, objecting to anything the parent says or does; and the boys lock themselves away or go elsewhere.   The advice was to stop trying to be pontificater in chief and just listen, and to stay the heck away, mostly.  One guy said he had a close moment with a young teen daughter by asking to be let in her room, sitting on her bed, and letting her paint his toenails pink, joking about it.  (Oh, the luxuries of time, nail polish, etc.)
                This appalls me, mainly because where I lived, we were brought up to be responsible long before we were teens.  The family needed us to pull our own weight, and it was self-evident.  As young teens, we did not need to escape being treated as children, being children meaning being led around and coddled.   Parents taught you to walk, talk, and then help with everything else, driving as soon as possible; life was busy.
               In retrospect, being a structural part of a family from an early age totally prepared me to expect to be the same in the larger society.  As far as London goes, perhaps there are difficulties with immigrants whose family function/structure is better adapted to countries left behind.

          • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

            Greg makes an important point: Classroom teachers should not be doing the job of parents, they should be teaching content, not doing behavior management skill training.

            Classrooms have devolved incredibly and it’s one more piece of our culture that is disintegrating right before our eyes.

            I only taught high school for a few years Most of my teaching career was at the university level and a lot of it managing graduate students. Very few behavior issues and no helicopter parents. So, I feel for what Greg goes through in a K12 classroom.

            Much of what we see in American classrooms can be chalked up to “dysparentia.”

  • Pdennant

    Mix one part burgeoning world population (with accompanying shifts from under developed to developed countries), one part gross economic distribution, one part technological innovation/automation (which reduces the need for workers/jobs) with a world wide recession/depression (your choice of terms) and you have a volatile recipe for civil unrest that only takes a spark to ignite. It erupted in Britain first.  It won’t end there if the underlying problems are not addressed.

  • Dave in CT

    Deep suspicion of window smashing arsonists is unwarranted?

  • Tacitus

    I’m sure similar revolts will come to US soon. Our problems are not so different -inequality, corrupt politicians, poor education, youth with no perspective.

    • Concerned Citizen

      And what if they don’t come to the US?  Does that mean your hypothesis is bunk?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    We can’t do sociology when a riot is in progress.  Stop the riots, and then we’ll talk.

    • Pdennant

      The first rule of management is, “Take care of the problem or someone else will.”  The sociology was ignored by the managers (ruling class) and the riots broke out after prolonged inattention.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        When the patient is bleeding, you don’t ask him if he’s an alcoholic.

        • Pdennant

          Metaphorical claptrap.  You have a penchant for that.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Thanks–I teach poetry, among other things.  Sometimes, a bit of metaphor helps to explain what pages of argument are saying.

    • Steve T

      You mean like in the middle east?

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        That’s a different situation.

        • Steve T

          Yeah they didn’t burn down anything, just got shot up.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Are we saying that the governments in Britain and Egypt are the same?

          • Steve T

            Ask a Britt. who’s rioting.

    • Steve T

      You mean like in the middle east?

  • PaulCJr

    I swear this talk could be about the US, minus the rioting. But we have experienced such riots here in the States. I personally remember the LA riots and all the troubles that went along with it. I wish the Brits the best and I hope they get through it and come out better and stronger.

  • PaulCJr

    I swear this talk could be about the US, minus the rioting. But we have experienced such riots here in the States. I personally remember the LA riots and all the troubles that went along with it. I wish the Brits the best and I hope they get through it and come out better and stronger.

  • Anonymous

    As far as the view that the world owes people something, the royal family leads by example. 

    • Michael

      What you don’t think there happy paying for a royal wedding during hard times?

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Here in the U.S., we have similar problems in our big cities.  In some of our states, though, good citizens have the ability to defend ourselves.

    • PaulCJr

      We have these same issues in poor suburbs as well. This is not confined to the Cities. Suburbs burn just as well.

    • PaulCJr

      We have these same issues in poor suburbs as well. This is not confined to the Cities. Suburbs burn just as well.

    • Steve T

      Define Good citizen.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Abides by the law, works for a living, makes the world better…

        • Michael

          That would exclude most if not all of congress.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Fine by me–I call it as I see it, without considering how powerful the target is.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Abides by the law, works for a living, makes the world better…

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        In the context of self defense, good citizen means passing the background check and skills test required to get a carry license.

        • Steve T

          O.K. I have done this myself, but what about the guy who has done the same thing, but looses his or her job, house and then what? They are  not a good citizen because they don’t have anything to defend but themselves?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            That’s not what I mean.  I know very well that life throws hardships at us, and even good people fall behind.  What I’m saying is that good citizens don’t loot and burn because the government didn’t give them an I-gadget.

          • Steve T

            You really minimalized the issue. How about this a good citizen carrying a gun Shot down by a policeman? Would that upset you? I know you wouldn’t go out and start a riot, but what if it was someone you knew your whole life as a good person? would you even get angry? Maybe use your gun? and if you didn’t have one throw a brick and scream at the top of your lungs I’m feed up and I’m not taking any more? Just asking.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Are we really in that situation?  There’s a world of difference between people who rebel against oppression and rioters who appear to have been just bored.

          • Steve T

            Yes.
            Bored? stop I can’t go on with this… Did you read or know what started this?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Yes, a shooting by the police.  In a civil society, the court system exists to deal with that.  But are you claiming that the mass of rioters are noble resistance fighters?  Eh, perhaps if they win…

          • Anonymous

            That would be iGadget — your branding was off.  I won’t report you to the corporate overlords this time. 

    • Cato

      I don’t think guns would help in this issue, just escalate it. Don’t think good citizens would be better of if thugs were armed with automatic weapons too.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        Automatic = spray and pray.  I’ll take a carefully aimed shot.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Here in the U.S., we have similar problems in our big cities.  In some of our states, though, good citizens have the ability to defend ourselves.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I am hearing Laurie Penny talking about the “feral rats” asking for more responsibility.
        What is the basis of that?  I would concur that’s probably what is needed.  A sense of entitlement, if that’s what they are expressing, is best disciplined by guaranteeing them a voice in the status quo.  Somewhat akin to taxation without representation.  If you are being impacted by the Powers that Be, you will shape up if you are part of shouldering the responsibility (for balancing the budget and so on).

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      The European model, since the end of W.W. II, has been that the state will take care of you.  That doesn’t work well in reality, of course.

      • PaulCJr

        The wild free market isn’t doing that well for us here in the States.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          We don’t have a free market in the classical sense.  We live in a globalized monopoly market.

      • PaulCJr

        The wild free market isn’t doing that well for us here in the States.

      • Ellen Dibble

        There are plenty of jobs in the United States that take the same approach:  ”Just keep your nose to the grindstone; we’ll pay your health insurance, set you up for life; just buy a house and a car, tend to your family, go to church, and be polite.  Watch Fox News in the evenings.  You’ll be fine.”

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

          I just wish that both countries would get back to the genuine model of Adam Smith–small businesses.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I am hearing Laurie Penny talking about the “feral rats” asking for more responsibility.
        What is the basis of that?  I would concur that’s probably what is needed.  A sense of entitlement, if that’s what they are expressing, is best disciplined by guaranteeing them a voice in the status quo.  Somewhat akin to taxation without representation.  If you are being impacted by the Powers that Be, you will shape up if you are part of shouldering the responsibility (for balancing the budget and so on).

  • Dave in CT

    That British MP about poor not an excuse has it right on.  IMO that has to stay at the center of this.

  • Dave in CT

    That British MP about poor not an excuse has it right on.  IMO that has to stay at the center of this.

  • ariel

    with the politicians and ruling class likening the underclass to “feral rats” and denying that the rioting is based on civil unrest shows a breathtaking arrogance.  the only surprise here is that this didn’t happen years ago. 

  • Earthlight

    Civil unrest is always a reflection of societal injustices…and I’m not saying that it is okay; as clearly it is not! What I am saying is that if we want civility in society we have to lead by example; and to not hold injustices as that which is accountable is to invite social unrest. This could have and should have been prevented; and I believe it would have been if those injustices that came before were righted…and that is so tragic.

    • mary elizabeth

      Yes, and it may be offputting to learn that one’s PM week-end dining companions include  cohorts of billionaire Murdoch et al-  i.e , he  functions at the behest of the powerful  who would just as soon the great unwashed just sit down and shut up. 
      Some of this is just the result  of years of pent up rage at the powerlessness of the underclass.
      The rigid Mr. Cameron needs to climb out of his ivory tower and enter into dialogue  a la  Bill Clinton  “I feel your Pain” as our own leaders need to do.

  • Dbibby

    Hey, I’ve watched many videos of the mayhem and they mostly look white to me.

  • Steve T

    I see that the commoners in London have been watching the middle east and learned that riot first, talk peace latter works better than waiting to be shot because you just want to eat on a regular basis.
    Don’t tell me you didn’t see this coming.

  • Dave in CT

    The government can’t install pride/dignity. Only the individual can find it.

    The best the government can create is nationalism, or a ham-handed stripping of dignity.

  • Bill

    If the “crackdown” ends up targeting social classes and races rather than targeting the criminals, the situation is going to quickly become a 100 times worse.

    • Dave in CT

      Who even mentioned doing that? Looks like there are more criminals to prosecute than can even be handled.

      But these red herrings do help to excuse the behavior and slow down any prompt, clearly needed clampdown against anarchic destruction of property.

      Or should we embrace animalist anarchy?  Hope your guns are big and ammo piles great.

      Mad Max in the name of social justice. Can’t wait.

  • Dave in CT

    Yes caller!! Start at the top! Catharsis!

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Ms. Penny,

    Are you seriously suggesting that we have a policy of promoting their self esteem?  Oy vey!  If they would work on achieving something, I’d respect them.

    • Ellen Dibble

      The problem is that the kind of work they are finding and doing very most probably DIScourages “achieving something.”  I suppose in London they don’t have Mexican immigrants flooding in to replace all those hamburger flippers who improve themselves right out of their situations.  So it is all the more important to make sure that people do NOT educate themselves out of complacency.  You want to be sure to entertain them, bring them to special parties or whatever makes them feel good, but do not, do not, do not, let them start applying their mind to things.  Don’t let them in on what’s going on; they might stop “minding their own business” and become a threat to those who are pretending hard to be much more capable, much better informed, much better connected, all that, at whatever job they have landed in.  May your job be a swamp out of which you will never rise, but hopefully will sink in its quicksand as slowly as possible, while singing and smiling.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

        I don’t doubt that some in power hold that attitude, but I’ve seen too many students who accept it passively.  They could do better for themselves if they would only stop whining and learn.

        • Ellen Dibble

          Do the schools teach youngsters how to stand up to corporate paternalism?

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            Anyone who is capable of individual thought can do that.  The problem is that learning isn’t cool in too many cultures.

          • Steve T

            That, Greg as a teacher is up to you. Try to be inspiring.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            So the student has no responsibility in the matter?  I didn’t know that I was so powerful.

          • Steve T

            You are your the head of the class, responsibility is learned as respect is earned. Get their respect and teach them responsibility.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            My job is to provide knowledge and teach skills.  I’m not in sales.  Students get what they want out of the class.

          • Steve T

            Glad you weren’t my teacher.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            So it’s my job to forcefeed students who bring nothing to class?  Yes, there’s a lot of responsibility in teaching, but students have responsibilities as well.

          • Michele

            You are missing a huge point.  These are not the youth of America.  The British society is not the same as our American society.  There is a class system in place that Americans do not deal with.  If you are in the lower classes you only go to certain types of schools, and there are only certain jobs that fit into those socio-economic striations.  There is much less opportunity to be self-made in the UK.
             

          • earthlight

            And to a great extent i agree with what you have said here Michele…though American impoverished youth by means have equal opportunity…just look at the playing field of admissions to higher education; which privileged youth are well prepared for…disadvantaged youth do not have the ‘prepared portfolios’ to compete equally; therefore they must have twice the potential of privileged youth to gain admission to the best schools…which let’s face it, pretty well determines one’s opportunity for future class status. It’s just not as obvious here…as we as a society have masked our dirty little secrets of discrimination in fancy wrappers, allowing people to be the ostriches they so wish to be.

          • Anonymous

            The statement above could not be written by a teacher today. It’s almost laughable.

          • Anonymous

            The students today, many of them, shuck any personal responsibility for learning, if there isn’t something tangible directly connected to it. It’s sickening.

          • Ellen Dibble

            Where I’ve observed this in minority communities where I’ve volunteered, the reason learning isn’t cool is because it is irrelevant.  That which is taught by the dominant culture seems and is at cross-purposes with the life lessons that are part of the home and part of the community.  There is no way to fuse the two opposites, and most of the values at school have to be ditched in order to fit in at the home neighborhood.  There is a lot of street-learning to be done, which is necessary and ongoing.  The idea that nerd-type knowledge would ever help me is just so ridiculous.  It isn’t worth it to try to be middle class.  Just look at what is happening to you, for instance, the kids can say to me.  They see the advantages but there is no real choice, not if they are to remain part of their extended family, their gang as they grow older, their culture.

          • Dave in CT

            The rest of society, that whatever our view of the political-economic model, realizes the benefit of sobriety, effort, and work to both economic well being and self-esteem, can’t be held hostage to fatalists.

            Whether we have an overpopulated world that may make it impossible for everyone to successfully find and succeed from opportunity, is another issue, but even if true, the gut wish for the utopian peace and security of a successful magical nanny-state, will never function, and a culture of opportunity to try and succeed against the odds that most people face in different forms, seems the best we can do.

      • Julia Tabor

        Dear Ellen,

        very poetic, couldn’t agree more!

  • Rosita17171

    hmmm..a culture that worships wealth..corporate greed and scamming…rampant materialism most of it target to the youth..wonder who deserved the term ”hoolligans”

  • Dave in CT

    Throw the feral youth and the Wall St. scum in the tank together, we may get double justice.

    • Steve

      What goes into the making of feral youth?

      What goes into the making of Wall Street scum?

      What prevents me from acting in like manner?

      • Dave in CT

        Free will, and then consequences or lack thereof, under the Rule of Law.

        We have choices, and there are consequences.

        We choose not to prosecute Wall St.

        We may choose not to prosecute the actions of feral youth.

        There will be consequences.

        • Michael

          “Free will, and then consequences or lack thereof, under the Rule of Law.”

          I say
          http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=219426

          “We choose not to prosecute Wall St.”

          no, Some decided to tell a different story, just so happens are financially and politically connected to the people who broke the law.

          “There will be consequences. ”

          Depending on the person, their lawyers, class and race least that’s the way it works in the U.S.

          Either this event will push the UK public to recognize some grievances and find some type of social/economical ways to prevent this happening again(while punishing the ones that need to be) or a brutal crackdown will occur more police state laws and taking away more Human rights to prevent this in the future which will almost no doubt happen again.

          Sure the “Feral” Police will solve everything like they do in the U.S. Great example was the BART Police man.

  • SectorSevenG

    Rats, Raccoons and that dastardly corrupt sector of society, Oh My!

    These Raccoons will be burning something soon due to the lack of empathy and respect from the elite monied politicians: http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2011/08/10/4e4261e78d955

    Soon we will hear about how these rats and Raccoons need to be exterminated. Maybe a final solution to social disparity and fear of the poor.

  • Dh001g

    A good article on what some of the larger social currents which came to mind is the following:

    Lash, Scott (1994), “The making on an underclass: neo-liberalism versus corporatism” in
    Phillip Brown, Rosemary Crompton et. Al (eds), A New Europe? Economic Structuring and Social Exclusion (London: UCL Press)

    The author highlights some of the theory on underclass formation in Europe and uses it to examine what will and now has happened in Europe. The end is particularly chilling in light of recent events.

  • Sink Verizon

    Verizon LAN workers and the company are the WORST.  Terrible company, awful customer service.  Unfortunately, in NYC there are few options for some buildings where you have to have a LAN line, and the boxes in the basement are ‘keyed’ to a vendor making transition to another company nearly impossible.  These people have no business striking given their level of service.

  • Julia Tabor
  • Anonymous

    Accounts I’ve read (I do not watch TV) and heard indicate that the eruption that began last weekend was an opportunistic outbreak branching from a public protest over the Duggan shooting (for which no conclusive investigation has yet been conducted: Duggan may have fired no shots, but we’ve yet to hear just why he was armed or, as a father of four, what activities [criminal or not] he was engaged in). We also hear the role “social media” and cellphones/blackberries, etc., have played in organizing and targeting outbreaks in the dozens of localities across London, which suggests to this pedestrian mind that technophile youth spend someone’s hard-earned income as they like for what they like. As to the “feral youth” slur: perhaps Mr Burns, with his historical perspective, accounts for the shifts towards lack of supervision in the home which have followed without too much surprise from his own generation’s celebration barely forty years ago of youth culture, a celebration fomented early on in Stones anthems “Street Fightin’ Man” and “Gimme Shelter” and which in its way (the celebration of youth culture that continues unabated, that is) is exemplified in the juvenile contempt modeled by the under-50 minions caught up in the “News of the World” spectacle: the equation “youth might = youth right” would hardly seem complete now. Ideas have consequences, indeed.

  • BAS

    UK society/culture seems to have fully embraced first and foremost a market/ consumer model w/ human factor more and more dissociated from any kind of golden rule; heads in the sand.

    Inevitable primal unravelings?

  • Dominicpimentel

    Criminality n 1: the quality or state of being a criminal 2: criminal activity. 

    So let’s examine the statement by the blogger for the Guardian: “I don’t believe in pure criminality.” 
    (Context: she thinks the motives are too quickly and easily ascribed to the rioters, that there are complex and multitudinous motivations spurring the violence.) 

    No one is a pure criminal (one who commits a crime) because there are many factors culminating in the criminal act. The act does not fully explain the situation. In her words: “you can’t blame the war for the violence.”

    Under that rational, she should not believe in gravity, light, sound, or anything. After-all, our understand of such phenomena does not encompass the fullness of it’s being. 

    There are many things we may not know about gravity, but even the most foolhardy gambler would not take those odds from the tenth floor. 

    Perhaps she would. 

    Really. It’s alright to call someone who burns down your house a criminal, and, their act, one of pure criminality. 

  • TnTeacher

    The issue is justice, economic and social. If you sit behind a desk, wear a suit, destroying what few assets the public has, that is acceptable, even rewarded. If you’re out on the street destroying property values, protesting being unemployed and having social services and opportunity cut out from under you, you’re clubbed, gassed, and hosed.  It’s a shame they didn’t drag a few banker out of their homes and offices and hang them from a street lamp, along with a few politicians, Mr. Cameron. They might have gotten the message then.
    They wanted class warfare?  They started it, their policies provoke and institutionalize the inequities.  They think they can sit behind their walls and gates, and police and armies, drink tea, and eat crumpets while the world starves for justice and opportunity. ”Let them eat cake,” the whetstone are out, the blades are being sharpened, the guillotines are coming…

    • Dave in CT

      it’s a nice narrative supporting the riff-raff, until they turn around and cut your throat with the same fatalistic, nihilistic attitude.

    • Rudy

      This is absolute rubbish.  I am a British citizen and this has nothing to do with protests, even the social democrat leader Nick Clegg said this.  They are not protesting being unemployed and having services cut. They have not taken effect yet.  The UK has a much wider social safety net than the US has.  
       

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Rice/100000693874282 Joseph Rice

    ( sarcasm_mode = on)
    These actions surely must be a last-ditch effort, and  I am sure that these poor, disenfranchised youth were busy for years with letter-writing campaigns, petitions, candlelight vigils and days of public prayer and fasting. Why no reports on those efforts to alleviate their situation?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      How about applying themselves in school, filling out job applications, or even just picking up some trash in their off hours?

  • TnTeacher

    On this day August 10th, 1792, 30,000 French citizens stormed the Tuileries Palace, thus ending the French monarchy. They had petitioned the king for several month prior…

    • Anonymous

      Thirty thousand French citizens, and ten thousand more French citizens besides, perished just in the Great Terror of 1793 and 1794, according to Palmer. Perhaps an updated, annotated edition of Donald Greer’s 1935 survey would find a market today . . . . 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Emílio-Matos/100002393811839 Emílio Matos

    Sex Pistols – Streets of London”Well did you see the old man

    Outside the seamen’s mission

    Memories of fighting with themedals that he wears

    And did you see the old manOutside the seamen’s mission

    He’s just another hero froma land that doesn’t care
    So how can you tell me you’re lonely

    And don’t you say to me your sun don’t shine
    And have you seen the old girl

    Who walks the Streets Of London

    She ain’t got no money and she’sall dressed in rags

    And have you seen the old girl

    Who walks the Streets Of London

    She carries her old knickers in twopolythene bags
    So how can you tell me you’re lonely

    And don’t you say to me your sun don’t shine
    Well let me take you by the hand

    And lead you through your Streets Of London

    I’ll show you something you’ll never understand

    Well let me take you by the hand

    And drag you through your Streets Of London

    I’ll show you sonething that’ll make you really sick
    Well let me take you by the hand
    And lead you through your Streets Of London
    I’ll show you something we’ll never understand
    Well let me take you by the hand
    And drag you through your Streets Of London
    I’ll show you sonething that’ll make you really sick”

  • Michele

    I lived in Oxford, UK for two years.  Oxford is not exactly a hotbed of violence and civil unrest.  However, on Thursday and Friday evenings I would avoid certain parts of the City center as there was so much drunkenness and belligerence with large crowds that would gather after the pubs let out at 11 PM.  The pent-up anger and mob mentality was truly frightening.  The feral youth issue had been discussed in Parliament while I was living there because it was viewed as a growing issue. 

    Additionally, there is still a fairly striated class system where lower class people have fewer opportunities than those even in this country.  It is very difficult to break out of your class.  In other words one understands their place in the system/world.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=735172628 Nancy Foust

    One youth said they were sticking it to the rich. Maybe we need to send them maps with the heads of the investment banks and other corporate criminal enterprises home addresses marked. They may have a nugget of an idea but their execution sucks. Rich people don’t own the corner store. 

    • Dave in CT

      Best post all day.

      • Michael

        ah nope.

    • Michael

      One could point that if there actions lower the value of investments or the UK stock market then in fact they could in theory be sticking to the rich.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Rice/100000693874282 Joseph Rice

      I think many of us, myself included, are making flippant remarks about this situation  out of frustration. “Sticking it to the rich” (as we have heard in the oft-broadcast clip of the two young women) was not the motivation here, just a weak rationalization. I suspect my dog has more political activism than most of these people. If anything, this will make their ultimate situation worse; after watching this, I suspect British voters will demand fewer services and accomodations to these populations, rather than feel extorted into providing more.

  • william

    Perhaps the thugs they catch should be sent to Somalia for a few weeks to learn how tough life can really be for some people.

    • Earthlight

      In that case William, perhaps so should the bankers!

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • david

    Coming to a town near you.
    In America they will call them Flash mobs.

    • Michael

      bahaha, I bet,

      Folks if you have not heard sing our rightie’s can’t pend these riots on Muslims or blacks or multiculturalism .

      They have come up with racial undertone of “flash Mobs” now supposedly everywhere in the U.S.. What this consist of is telling white folks to be fearful of blacks in all major cities and surrounding areas cause now young black males are coming to get them and steal there possessions .

      This push has been big for the last two days on talk radio and right news. Currenly the right wingers are decrying the Main Stream Media for not covering the non-existent “Flash Mob” of young blacks males coming together to attack whites.

      • earthlight

        Isn’t a flash mob a group which creates satire?

        • Michael

          Use to.

      • twenty-niner

        Not just right-wing radio talking about flash mobs:

        “Mayor Nutter Strongly Condemns Mob Attack”

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoxQbnVx4TU

         

        • Michael

          “Parents get your act together” is hardly a case for all white’s to be fearing young black man in all cites like our poster David and many of the righties are trying to claim.

          What’s the % of 1 city out of how many in the U.S.?  say around
          25,375. Sad though

          I bet I can find more cases of Multiple Policeman beating black man in far more cities.

  • Michael

    Cool song even to go with it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDj5Swjaduo

  • Michael
  • Sunil
    • earthlight

      And very well said.

  • Anonymous

    Something else worth focusing on is the mobilization by youth in Chile… well organized and targeting the capitalist showcase state…

    • earthlight

      I’m willing to wager we will hear much more of this one in the days to come…the military in full riot gear are already herding the students who are peacefully protesting there…though it won’t make news until there is violence; and just what does that say? Another question to be considered.

    • Dave in CT

      Now of course while we have gut reaction of justice if riots turn to the actual elite banking class, we have to be mature and wise enough to not do the lazy and destructive thing of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

      Markets and individual opportunity to create, are the engine of peace and prosperity.

      Corruption of markets by financial sector parasites has occured. We have to find a way to hold them accountable and to keep the system cleaner going forward.

      With a tendency of corrupt capital to corrupt government, of course its a difficult challenge.

      But to think change is as easy as burning down everything around us and voting for someone to just give us free services, will of course never work, and just cause more chaos in the future.

  • Pingback: Black Thursdays*: The London riots, me on NPR and ‘whitewashing’ the clean ups

  • Ellen Dibble

    I watched for six hours today at parliamentlive.tv on the internet the House of Commons, first discussing the splash made by the S&P downgrading of our triple A rating, and the direction the UK should take, and then discussing the riots (having all been called back from vacation, in one case from a honeymoon in NYC).  
       As usual, I love live parliament because MP’s have to actually persuade on the spot.  Cameron and his chancellor of the exchequer might talk about needing to take on “pressure groups” (lobbyists?) in order to take the anticompetitive brakes off new businesses, but the lobbyists aren’t in the well of the chamber.  And anyone speaking who hears “Will the gentle lady give way?” stops mid sentence to be interrupted.  Back benchers get five minutes.  Front bench (party in power) gets unlimited.  As usual, at the end (7:45) the summary (by Secretary of Education, beside Cameron at the time) touched on many of the speeches, congratulated MPs for reporting back from their “patches” and analyzing and recommending without partisan preordained conclusions, and he contextualized all the speeches, and laid out the path ahead.  
    At the start the deputy speaker had said that those yelling (Here, here, here) were deluded if they expected to be called.  I heard persuasion, facts, true back-and-forth.  Once persuaded, Cameron can act.  (Wow.  True?)  
    As to info, people monitoring tweets during the riots could tell where the horde (totally unorganized, unprincipled) was heading next.  Certain trains would take those tweeted to the next locale being opened up.  Why weren’t those trains stopped?  Apparently some buses were.  It seems about 30 to 50 hard core were able to sort of mastermind the Saturday to Wednesday spree. 
    The Home Secretary (name sounded like Teresa May) will meet the social media people etc., and consider everything, including purple-dye hosing, which Northern Ireland seems to have, and which a certain MP with police experience thinks would  chill and wet and ID perpetrators, but the Home Secretary is for now holding the line on cutting police funding, which would chop 16,000 jobs, the same number called out in sometimes 26-hour shifts, for the crisis.  Her ruling party says the police paperwork is Victorian, a third duplicative and 22% of law enforcement (that is, should be cut).

  • http://www.facebook.com/tom.blancato Tom Blancato

    The riots are the upsurge of rebellion against secondary violence. Secondary violence is punitive violence. A primary problem may take place and have its intrinsic harms: you get in a fight and break the TV. The primary harm is the TV being broken, broken plastic might cut you, you lose use of the TV, etc. Secondary violence is: someone reacts TO that: the police come and beat someone up, put you in jail, your housemate beats you up for breaking his TV, etc. Those reactions are secondary. In situations of crime there is always primary harm, which is the original substance at issue. Secondary violence desubstantializes. Restorative justice reaffirms the original relation, and can be worked into both family life and court systems. The main work for solving this problem is ensubstantialization. The chief problem is the capitalisms that make use of the secondary: these include courts, sadisms, musics and so forth. The nature of the reaction shows that it is a reaction against and also with desubstantialization; it is a rebellion against punitivism itself, by the punitive and capitalized/capitalizing.

  • NPR Listener

    Mr. Ashbrook,
    I found this show to be disappointing, ill informed compared to newspaper reporting, and unfortunate that it was largely dedicated to unfounded ideological speculation as to the rioters’ motives.  From the comments section and your guests’ statements, many people have the mistaken impression that the rioting in London is a unique event which must be in response to world events like the Great Recession or austerity.  Yet, according to the British and Irish press, riots have occurred in London on several occasions stretching back decades.  Furthermore, the London rioting was far less destructive than the 2005 rioting in the banlieus of France and has a far lower death toll than the infamous Rodney King Riot.  Perhaps next time you could feature guests who have some training in the relevant criminology, history, policing, and so forth who can shed light on the cultural, historical, sociological, and technological contexts of the riot and compare and contrast the British experience to that of the US and other nations.  At the very least, given the short notice of the broadcast, you could have asked and demanded from your guests a higher level of critical inquiry of the events rather than providing a platform for preconceived attributions. 

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 18, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks during a nationally televised question-and-answer session in Moscow on Thursday, April 17, 2014. President Vladimir Putin has urged an end to the blockade of Moldova’s separatist province of Trans-Dniester. Trans-Dniester, located in eastern part of Moldova on border with Ukraine, has run its own affairs without international recognition since a 1992 war. Russian troops are stationed there.  (AP)

Deadly clashes in Eastern Ukraine. A white supremacist rocks Kansas City. The Marathon bombing anniversary. And Bloomberg on guns. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

Apr 18, 2014
This undated photo provided by NASA on April 2, 2014 shows Saturn's moon Enceladus. The "tiger stripes" are long fractures from which water vapor jets are emitted. Scientists have uncovered a vast ocean beneath the icy surface of the moon, they announced Thursday, April 3, 2014. Italian and American researchers made the discovery using Cassini, a NASA-European spacecraft still exploring Saturn and its rings 17 years after its launch from Cape Canaveral. (AP)

Oceans in Space. The new discovery on a moon of Saturn, and the possibility of life there.

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Apr 18, 2014
This undated photo provided by NASA on April 2, 2014 shows Saturn's moon Enceladus. The "tiger stripes" are long fractures from which water vapor jets are emitted. Scientists have uncovered a vast ocean beneath the icy surface of the moon, they announced Thursday, April 3, 2014. Italian and American researchers made the discovery using Cassini, a NASA-European spacecraft still exploring Saturn and its rings 17 years after its launch from Cape Canaveral. (AP)

Oceans in Space. The new discovery on a moon of Saturn, and the possibility of life there.

 
Apr 18, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks during a nationally televised question-and-answer session in Moscow on Thursday, April 17, 2014. President Vladimir Putin has urged an end to the blockade of Moldova’s separatist province of Trans-Dniester. Trans-Dniester, located in eastern part of Moldova on border with Ukraine, has run its own affairs without international recognition since a 1992 war. Russian troops are stationed there.  (AP)

Deadly clashes in Eastern Ukraine. A white supremacist rocks Kansas City. The Marathon bombing anniversary. And Bloomberg on guns. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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Our Week In The Web: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Space moon oceans, Gabriel García Márquez and the problems with depressing weeks in the news. Also: important / unnecessary infographics that help explain everyone’s favorite 1980′s power ballad.

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Some Tools And Tricks For College Financial Aid
Thursday, Apr 17, 2014

Some helpful links and tools for navigating FAFSA and other college financial aid tools.

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