The Misery Of Air Travel

TODAY IS THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2013

July 14, 2011 at 11:00 AM

The Misery Of Air Travel

We’re talking about the misery of air travel. The crowding, the fees, the waits, the torture today of getting from A to B.

A passenger undergoes a TSA pat-down at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport in Seattle. (AP)

We’ve long since given up on the idea of American air travel, coach class, as any kind of joy ride.

But head for a flight this summer –- just a modest little flight, to get somewhere simple –- and you are very likely headed for a passel of misery.

Good luck figuring out the cost, with the welter of fees and extra charges flying around online. Good luck getting through security, with lines around the terminal. Good luck squeezing into your seat, with jam-packed flights and everyone lugging carry-on.

And food? A snack? Forget about it.

This hour On Point: does air travel have to be this ugly?

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests:

Richard Aboulafia, vice president, analysis at the Teal Group.

Michelle Higgins, writes the weekly Practical Traveler column, which appears Sundays in the Travel section of the New York Times and on the Web. It offers insider information on how to navigate the travel experience –- from how to get a good seat on a plane to how to find a better hotel deal.

Kate Hanni, executive director of Flyersrights.org, a consumer advocacy group she started in 2006 to represent airline passengers

From Tom’s Reading List:

Open Allies for Airfare Transparency: “U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has been without doubt the most pro consumer advocate and leader of the Department in its history. The Secretary’s 2009 3-hour tarmac delay rule was historic. His senior staff intensely shares his passion for fair treatment of airline consumers and goes about their complex regulatory work with pronounced thoughtfulness as evidenced by the recently publicized second consumer protection rule. “

twenty-niner

Not to mention cancer:

“Can TSA’s scanning machines give you cancer? New fears after claim
government is covering up ‘clusters’ of disease among airport workers”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2009215/Can-TSAs-scans-cancer-Is-government-covering-disease-clusters.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Of course the Israelis have known for a long time that these scanners can be defeated, which is why they profile.
- Anonymous
  
  There’s only one problem with profiling. You need intelligent and sophisticated profiling agents. That ain’t happening in this country.
guest

Passengers themselves are a big part of the problem – the selfishness and aggression by many to get overhead space is unbelievable. I dont blame the stewards for looking the other way when the majority come on with oversized carry-ons, I wouldn’t want to deal with them and their ‘me first’ attitude either!! I travel a lot for work; if I don’t check bags, I’ve actually shipped them to where I’ll be staying (course, I do get to charge that back to the job).
I have my own anger mgmt issues too – I can’t tell you how annoyed I get standing behind people wearing shoes w/laces, belts or jewelry – seriously, where have they been for the past decade????
http://richardsnotes.org Richard

I’ve been traveling a lot for over 20 years, both domestic and international. Repeat business travel gets old and those of us who have and still do do it know that flow is the best way through. I have over a million air miles on a single airline plus plenty on others.

Early on post 9/11 I felt for TSA agents; they have to absorb quite a bit of nervousness, aggravation, racism, and idiocy from people who don’t flow well. However, lately there has been a change in the way TSA seems to be doing their screening and instead of helping with flow, they’re getting aggressive which is unnecessary and hurts their PR.

I routinely travel with a pack and a camera bag with high end gear in both. When I run this stuff through x-ray (computer out of bag) I like to get through screening so I can be there to pick it up when it gets through the conveyor belt. But, if I’m not, I make mention to the TSA agent that I’d like to keep an eye on my stuff. I make this request politely with a smile on my face and good eye contact. It has never been a problem until now.

On my last four trips the various TSA agents not only became irritated with my request, two of them (two separate airports) walked me over to desks further away from my stuff for no apparent reason just to press their point that they’re in control and who am I to make such a request. One of them held me at the desk for no reason for 5 minutes, long enough for many people to paw over my stuff.

As many of you know, there is no one watching the conveyor belt to make sure that the right person picks up the right stuff.

I didn’t make a scene and I eventually got all my stuff but not before it was piled up with other people’s stuff in such a way that someone could have easily walked off with my computer, phone, or camera gear.

This is both a logistical problem but also a social one: two times TSA agents not only failed to acknowledge my concern, but made concerted efforts to show they had power by making it harder or me to see my stuff.

That pushed me over the hump and now I’m dead set against TSA unionizing. Frankly I think TSA should be dismantled and redesigned with better logistics, better screening, and better training.
Yar

It is clear that the commercial air traveler is subsidizing private air travel.
http://www.ips-dc.org/files/228/HighFlyersReport.pdf
Your ticket price includes most of the landing costs for private and corporate jets.
My question is the airline industry paying its own way? From TSA scanners to publicly owned airports, I expect the non-flying taxpayer is subsidizing air travel. Is this another case of trickle up economics?
I would rather invest in education than frequent flyer miles bought with dollar coins.http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/07/13/137795995/how-frequent-fliers-exploit-a-government-program-to-get-free-trips
Jeffe68

I don’t travel by air unless it’s really necessary. The TSA is nothing but a joke. From Searching a sick woman in her 90′s and making her take off her adult diaper to small children they show me that they are incompetent fools. It’s a disgrace, the humiliation these rubes dish out should be stopped.
kathyah

I don’t fly often but prepare when I do. Have boarding pass printed & ready (with license) to get through necessary checks faster. Have shoes off when ready to go through scanner. Really try to make sure I have none of the ‘illegal’ carry on items. It’s frustrating, though, to be a ‘captive audience’, forced in to buying food/drinks at higher prices. Since we are supposed to be there so early, it would be nice if we could put our carry ons somewhere safe/secure so we could walk around (Get exercise!) while waiting.
rick_evans

You get what you pay for.

I don’t fly often. The last time I flew, Southwest in 2006 to Arizona, I found the experience surprisingly good considering all the crabbing I would hear in the media. I score two round trip tickets online for $528.

Customer service was always friendly. TSA at Providence/Green airport was efficient. I found the flights enjoyable experiences. All that said, airfares are now as low or lower than cross country bus fares.

So why would fliers expect to cross the country in a few hours in 1960s air travel luxury. Most of the whining is by frequent flying “road warriors” who have seen their quality of life degraded by the pandering by the airlines to the cheap flying crowd.
- kathyah
  
  Not all whining is done by the frequent flying road warriors.
  
  I just returned from Phoenix/Las Vegas (to boston). Next week, I fly to Charlotte, returnining on the 26th. ALL flights had their takeoff/landing times changed (all but 1 direction was 2 legs). They move their schedule on ME dispite me picking specific times and *I* have to abide by their changes.
  
  Moreover, the trip we just returned from, we had selected our seats. Because the new planes were not the exact same make/model/layout, our seat selections were not transferred. We were hosed on picking seats. I ended up having to *pay* for a seat to be able to sit with my partner. The seat I paid for did not recline because it was in front of an emergency exit. The airline responded to my request for a refund by allowing us to pick seats together (rather than apart) for the return flight.
  
  Also, the woman sitting direclty in front of us was travelling with her cat. Yes, the cat was directly in front of us. My partner has pretty bad pet hair allergies. She was gagging on the flight. The flight attendant offered to move my partner to the back of the plane, not the cat, and had no benadryl or benadryl-equivalent.
Cory

I’d be happy to let them fondle my bits and pieces with a smile on my face if they’d just MAKE THE DAMNED SEATS A LITTLE BIGGER! You’ve gotta be built like a jockey to be comfortable in them.
Steve

How REAL is the threat? Further, how effective the TSA procedures? Is a mandatory colonoscopy next? How do TSA procedures compare with the Israeli Airline Company?

I believe the TSA is basically a jobs program to employ people that would normally be unemployed. Secondarily it also serves to train the American public to subservience; abandon their rights, liberties, and dignity. It’s preparation for the future.

It truly doesn’t get much worse.
- Anonymous
  
  You got that right. It’s shocking how willing Americans are to trade their liberty to assuage their fear. Subservience, like ignorance, is bliss.
  - http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408098372 Mari McAvenia
    
    Frankly, I see that many subservient Americans are addicted to low level, sustained fear. It has become their “comfort zone” due to the brainwashing effects of watching the 24/7 “news” cycle and vicariously indulging in terrorism from a distance. I will not fly. Simply driving to the airport is too hair-raising for me, let alone being groped by strangers when I get there.
Anonymous

The travel modality of last resort.

And once terrorists decide to blow themselves up waiting in line in terminals instead of trying to get on planes, all this security theater at the terminals goes out the window. When you think about it, this makes more sense anyway for them tactically. I think many more people would elect not to fly if they thought the airports themselves were not secured. And the idea is to bleed us economically, is it not?

So then, of course, we’d screen at the airport entrances. After all, we always react to the EXACT and SPECIFIC thing that got past us the last time. Which is why we have idiotic policies like the shoe policy. Anyway, entrance screening will simply make things even more inefficient. And you’re still going to have a cluster of unscreened people waiting to get in anyway. You’re just moving the physical threat around, not reducing it.
Anonymous

It’s work, it’s worse than the taking the greyhound in the sky. I like to go to Carnival in Trinidad every February…the last time I went, I got “snowed in “, in Brooklynn, although seriously there was not much snow on the ground. I missed half of what I paid to go see, in Trinidad. I was stuck in Brooklynn for 3 days, thank God one of my sons lives there stayed with him for free….American Airlines asked me if I could “take a bus” to Florida, and fly to Trinidad that way. I am serious. Had the drug dogs “sicked” on me in Puerto Rico, more fun actually very nice dogs but still, who needs it? Got stuck on a tarmac at about 95 degrees leaving Trinidad via American. Dinky puddle jumper to PR…the “pilot” was asking who wanted drinks, as in alcohal, at 9 in the am, the people behind me did. Some of us got water, I asked for some. It was gutter level travel and it was not cheap. I decided to skip last year, I really just was still angry from the previous years flight, yea, a year ago. Nothing ran right, nothing was on time, and I was stuck in jfk for 24 hours begging to fly anyway just get me out of there. As a believer in guidance, I really took last experience as a voice from God to screw it next time.
- Anonymous
  
  I forgot, I also had a GREAT trip on Virgin Atlantic to London, so did my kids. It was PURE PLEASURE. I loved the people running it, loved the restuarant style meal, free alcohal if you drink I don’t but many do, and this was on coach fare. They give you socks and a toothbrush really loved it. I will fly Virgin any time I can, and it was no more expensive than US airlines since I always book way ahead. Viva Vrgin, forever.
Heath Racela

The only airline that I fly is jetBlue. Their fares are reasonable, their seats roomy, their snacks and drinks (mostly) free, and their baggage fees non-existent. Aside from TSA, flying with jetBlue is still a pleasurable experience.

All other airlines, from budget fleets like Airtran to legacy carriers like United and Delta, have got it all wrong. Abuse your customers, give them less comfort than a Greyhound bus, and charge through the nose. But what other choice do consumers have, right?

-Heath Racela
Littleton, MA
PaulCJr

I hate flying. I’m always uncomfortable, feel squeezed into the rows and I’m thin, and get nothing to snack but soda and peanuts. Now unless I have to travel cross-country, I take the train instead of the plane. Riding Amtrak is far more enjoyable even though it takes me longer to get to places. Yay! for Amtrak.
http://www.lulu.com/gypsyteacher Kathleen Dixon Donnelly

Just flew back to US from my home in Birmingham, UK. The Birmingham International Airport has put in a new security system and it is a dream–you just ‘fly’ through. Not sure how they did it, but best I have gone through in maybe 6 or 7 international and US trips this past year. And Air France still has great food for long-haul flights.
Jemimah

C’mon, t’s really not all that bad now, but it absolutely was more fun years ago. JetBlue is my favorite airline–the seats are roomy, the rates are good, and they give you a little snack. Do we really need that much to eat on a plane? Even on longer flights, all we’re doing is sitting there so it’s not as if we need to keep stoking our bodies for strenuous exercise. I think we Westerners have gotten so spoiled that we expect anyone providing a service to us is supposed to bend over backwards for us. Thank retail for that. Hah! I just noticed that the remark below me said the same thing about JetBlue!
Marjorietemple

We travel 4 times a year at least from Boston to Raleigh-Durham and Tampa.
We fly Jetblue – non stop and get a usually get a really good price. We are retired so have the luxury of waiting to get a good flight and price.
Jetblue is a wonderful airline and we have had no problems.
I book on line, know what the price is, check in ahead of time and seems to be no hassel.

Marjorie Temple, Medfield
Jeffe68

Enough of this nonsense. Let them go broke.
The airlines are asking for a consumer revolt and they are on line to get one. The whole thing is mess, from the TSA to the airlines and the rude staff they employ. The only one I’ve had a good experience with is Jet Blue and SouthWest.
Dorian

At least once during every now grueling air travel experience, I look another like-mind passenger in the eyes and say “remember when air travel used to be fun?” and we share that moment of commiseration at how bad the flight experience has become.

The pay as you go fee structure is absolutely absurd, and I think it has put the average harried passenger over the edge — I am loyal to Southwest Air for their “bags fly free” policy which seems silly, but in this day and age of nickel and diming passengers, it is a breath of fresh air.
- BHA in Vermont
  
  At $25 a bag, each way, that ticket is $50 cheaper than the same one on an airline that charges for baggage.
Elena

Jeez Louise. This is a rich man’s problem. Try driving home for your mom’s funeral from New Hampshire to Michigan with two toddlers in the back seat during a snowstorm on I-90. Now that’s misery.

Everyone else, quit yer bellyachin’ and be glad you can afford to go anywhere on a plane.
Margaret

Here’s what happened to my mom, who is in her 80s. No one wants to pay the baggage fee. They get around it by carrying all their bags onto the plane, as you say, not merely small carry-on bags. The airlines pretend not to notice. My mom paid the fee and checked in her suitcase. She carried only her winter coat onto the plane, which she tried to place in the overhead storage area. No space, as the space was all taken up by luggage other passengers had lugged aboard. My mom was forced to hold the coat on her lap during a long flight, which, while hardly the end of the world, was quite uncomfortable for a lady of a certain age. Why don’t the airlines enforce their own policies and truly let only carry-on bags be carried on?
Bash

I did feel sympathy to the overweight people when some of the airlines decided to overcharge them. However, on recent flight from NJ to Boston, I faced reality. On a small aircraft, I was assigned a window seat, near a passenger who had already gotten onto the isle seat next to me. The only issue was that the person has lifted the arm rest between the two seat, so I ended up with 1/2 of a seat .
Mmann1123

I believe the major driver of this is the only attribute you can make choices with is price. If expedia, bing, travelocity told you how much leg room you would have you would pay that extra 30 bucks for 3 more inches, unless you are a yogi.

Mike Berkeley
Steev in Brattleboro VT

The meals, luggage, and other perks were never ‘free’, you paid for them and it was compulsory. Now it’s optional. This is thanks to downward pressure on fares from travelers via cut-rate airlines. I’m happy to bring a bag lunch in exchange for a much lower fare. Granted, air travel is less comfortable now than in the past 50 years or so, but I just think of crossing the country on a bus or the ocean in a steamer, and it’s not so bad.
- NWChica
  
  Thank you for this entirely sane comment. While I flying Southwest has reminded me of bus travel in the past (5 stops from the point of orgin with lots of people getting on and off at each stop with no trash sweep or cleaning in between - ick), I have a hard time believing that anyone would rather take the Greyhound. When I was in college and didn’t have a car, I spent many Friday nights and Sunday afternoons on the Greyhound traveling to see my boyfriend, because that was the only transportion I could afford. It got me from point A to point B along with a lot of other people who, like me, didn’t have much money. Because I was traveling alone and was a young female, I often felt extremely vulnerable (justified or not), and my seat-mate was often pretty creepy and lacked many of the basic points of personal hygeine, and there was also no flight attendant to help moderate passenger behavior. I’ve never felt as scared on an airplane as I did on that bus. Flying is by no means fun, convenient, comfortable or dignified but if it was, I probably couldn’t afford it.
Some

It’s funny that, in the last hour, in order to support his claim that income in the US really is equal, one of the guests kept repeating how easy it is to fly from place to place … even for the working class!
- http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408098372 Mari McAvenia
  
  I heard that, too. It’s utter B.S.
Pulley

I wish the would do away with carry-on baggage – purses or a small back only. When we fly internationally we always go business or first class. We are fortunate enough to be able to afford this. I feel sorry for anyone spending 10+ hours in coach.
- Not Unhappy
  
  Type your comment here.
  
  Tom,
  
  I recall some time back a comparison of the rise in airline fares versus that of a private college education over the past three or four decades. When I graduated college in 1970 tuition was roughly $3000 for the year, and now at that same school it’s in the neighborhood of $60000, a 20X increase. In the same timeframe the cost of a transatlantic flight has risen from roughly $500 to perhaps $1000 or $1500, a 2X or 3X increase. It appears that we as consumers have voted with our pocketbooks for bare bones, no frills air travel.
Claire in Medford, MA

I’m 14 and I’m flying in a couple days to Chicago by myself. What’s it looking like for passengers under 18?
Lindsay

I am astonished at the comment that bags can travel without passengers. Here (Canada) if a bag is on a flight without its owner, it is deemed to be a potential danger, the departure is delayed and that bag removed.
Matthew_woods

Republicans say the best way to increase revenue is to take the boot of regulation off the neck of the US economy. The past quarter century of Republican deregulation has effectively eliminated federal regulation of the economy (aren’t most voluntary now?) and the air industry is the perfect example of what we got from it.
Soli

When I flew home from California in February, I was on the equivalent of a cattle car plane. Not only was the leg room minimal, but the seats DID NOT RECLINE. And it was a red eye flight too. Between that and the airline keeping us on the plane when people had minimal windows to make their connecting flights (and usually on flights in another terminal entirely), it was the worst flight experience of my life.

I can’t wait for longer distance rail travel to become easier. At least there I don’t have to get groped and dosed with radiation, and also have more room to move around.

(name rhymes with Julie)
Dukegreg

Travelers who know how to avoid that horrid coach seat don’t want to share this information for fear that it will become unavailable. Certain airlines offer seating arangements that are not so bad in coach. Any experienced flyer will never never check a bag and will travel light. The mantra has always been: credit card, swim suit, sunglasses. What else would you need?
Erin

When I travel for work I will ONLY travel using Continental. They have been amazing. They often leave early and are always quick to give you an upgrade if you are a frequent flier. My husband calls them my beloved airline. I am very nervous about this merger with United. I’ve already seen them take away free meals in coach and start to nickel and dime. If they go that route, I’ll no longer be a loyal Continental customer.
Rob Hoffman

I rarely fly anymore since I spent my career as an airline pilot.
But I feel the traveling puplic has done this to themselves by
demanding cheap air fares. The cost of operating an airline is
staggering. The cost of the airplane and crew is such a small
portion of the expence. There are many pieces of equipment�
and people out of sight of the passengers.

Rob Hoffman
Rangeley, Me
Walter

I was shocked recently to discover an airline practice that seems to run counter to good security practices. How can they refuse to return checked luggage if the flight is cancelled? This means luggage is flying without an accompanying passenger, and anything could be in that bag. Isn’t this a very bad idea? Is this a common practice?
james

What are my legal rights? Can I stand up and ask to be released from the plane after we’ve been on the tarmac for seven hours without fresh air? Can I feign a heart attack? Can I claim claustrophotia?
pam ohearn

We try to drive as much as possible now. Living in SE Idaho, we either have a 2 1/2 hour drive to SLC airport, or pay 200 bucks extra each to fly from Pocatello, ID. When we do fly, we like southwest. We switched when the airlines in general started charging for bags. We have been very happy with them. one of the best parts is simply that we have NEVER had a cranky flight attendant. We get our seats, it’s all egalitarian, more or less, our bags are included, so we know exactly how much we’re paying. Much happier.
Woodcat

Why can’t we build more high speed rapid rail like Europe? I would love to have another feasible option for traveling cross country for work(East to West coast) than flying(business class OR coach). It is so much more comfortable to travel from country to country in Europe via rail than flying domestically.
MTH

Into the mix of this conversation two points:

First; In general, the airlines are finally making money, the first time in a long time, if not for the first time ever. Not only do they charge their customers any number of new fees, but they have also cut their costs. A flight attendant that seems genuinely happy to be flying with their customers is a rarity. Is that because they are unhappy with airline employment policies?

Second; With all of the increased security measures I notice flight attendants sometimes now act more like TSA agents than courtesy representatives. God help you if you don’t cinch that seat belt within moments of when they “ask” you to.

Add the unfriendly and hassled attitude of the airline personnel to all of the other inconveniences for a totally NOT-preferred mode of travel. I’ll take my motorcycle.
Susan

Two words: fiat money
Dennis

Tom–

Given that the airports and roads leading to them were paid for by the US taxpayer, what can Congress do to make airlines be upfront about the combined cost of tickets and fees and redress for passengers whose flights are cut without notice? Can the federal aviation or other agency step in for greater transparency and consumer protection for minimum standards of service?
BHA in Vermont

There isn’t an airline seat shy of first class (which I can NOT afford) that is wide enough for my shoulders nor my wife’s for that matter. Out butts fit fine. The only way I can sit totally straight is to have one of my kids sit next to me when I am in an aisle seat. Then there is the issue of sitting next to an obese person who ‘extends’ well beyond the edges of their seat. Not that they can do anything to change that during the flight.

And leg room? They are now charging extra for the seats behind the divider between first class and us cattle.
Deb Cowan

The extra charges are really outrageous. As a traveling musician it can cost me an extra $25 per flight leg to transport my instrument in checked baggage. We also risk damage to the instrument by checking it, yet we are always told that we cannot carry on instruments that will fit in the overhead. My solution was to get a guitar that folds up (Voyage-Air) but I still have to pay to check a bag. We are stuck trying to do our jobs and risking our tools to do it. I have taken to going first class when the airline offers it for a fee at check-in which USAir and American do.
Claire

My last flight (horrific) was in a cramped airplane with one bathroom in the back. When the beverage cart was working it’s way down the aisle no one could pass the cart and get to the bathroom. It took almost 2 hours for the cart to get out of the way. Meanwhile people were dancing in the aisles with the flight attendant repeatedly announcing “please sit down until the beverages are all served – you can’t get past the beverage cart”. I’m wondering if it’s even allowed by the FAA to keep people from the bathroom for that long.
JosShirk

Thank God for MegaBus for an alternative to flying from Pittsburgh to NYC!
michael

Airline travel is indeed miserable. With the price of gasoline is ruling out road trips for many as well, the one attractive option is rail travel. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could invest more in our passenger rail infrastructure, making travel cheaper & more convenient for us all (and thus boosting the economy!). But given the budget-trimming crusade that’s stifling congress right now, this is probably just a pipe dream.
- Dennis
  
  No, it’s not a pipe dream. It would create an awful lot of jobs and tons of happy customers who would shop along the way. The US invented high-speed rail, jet-powered bullet trains. We could do this NOW if we put our minds to it.
  - michael
    
    Amen. But I can only imagine the reaction if such an idea were proposed in congress right now.
    - Dennis
      
      It has been proposed, but it’s stalled. I think Congress is discussing it as part of an energy and pollution-reduction bill. A few states recently got money for planning for high-speed rail.
      275+ mph, station to station, would make DC to NYC or even LA a relatively quick trip.
  - http://richardsnotes.org Richard
    
    I was considering Amtrak for a recent trip I was hesitant to do on a plane. Amtrak was more expensive and it would have taken 3 days where the plane took 5 hours.
    
    In order for high speed rail to compete it has to be a decent value and fast.
Christina

Sitting on the tarmac for close to an hour at Raleigh-Durham on a Delta flight, the passenger beside me asked the flight attendant if he thought he would make his international flight on-time. The flight attendant replied, “Oh, I didn’t bring my crystal ball today, so I can’t say for certain,” and returned to his seat up front. Priceless!
Claire

My last flight (horrific) flight was in a cramped airplane with one bathroom in
the back. When the beverage cart was working its way down the aisle no
one could pass the cart to get to the bathroom. It took almost 2
hours for the cart to get out of the way. Meanwhile people were dancing
in the aisles with the flight attendant repeatedly announcing “please
sit down until the beverages are all served – you can’t get past the
beverage cart”. I’m wondering if it’s even allowed by the FAA to keep
people from the bathroom for that long.
js

I can’t believe you are giving a full hour to this so-called issue. In the last hour you had guests talking about a real issue, and pointing out that too many of us have come to expect a “free lunch” from the government. That “free lunch” attitude couldn’t be on better display than with complaints about the lack of hot meals or seats that don’t lean back very far–all while the airlines hurtle you through the air at 600 miles per hour so you can have your vacation cake and eat it too.
- Anonymous
  
  Gotta be an airline employee or the government…IT SUCKS TO FLY. You have to try and find a reasonable cost, with reasonable changes of planes, you are treated like you shouldn’t be there, and it is not always for a vacation. Sometimes, the only way to GET somewhere is to fly there, and ao yea, people are PISSED offf.
Jemimah

You’re funny, Tom! You’re making it sound like the last time you flew, you were strapped to the wing without goggles!
Guest

Venture capitalists ought to look into reclaiming broken down-rails and investing in a high-speed rail system. THAT would be a sweet alternative to flying, and would likely be more fuel efficient as well.
Wiredsam

No mention of safety!, fuel costs!, 9/11 TSA requirements! which constrain the airlines and within which they must make a buck. And, all the ads are from 50s when fares were regulated and high, fuel was cheap, and flying was a luxury item.
John lafleur

Tom,

since airline profits over the decades have been based on the sale of a single seat per flight: money is made or lost on a given flight based upon the sale of one seat–I’m wondering if the airlines don’t intentionally make conditions uncomfortable. Driving one passenger from coach to business or first class would tend to double or triple profits.

John Lafleur
Brookline, MA
bookish

I’ve only traveled overseas once in my life, and it was on Delta in 2000 from Cincinnati to Paris. Somehow I ended up on the back row of the plane, and discovered that my seat was right up against the back wall so there was no way to recline. Since I would be arriving in Paris in the morning, I really wanted to sleep on the plane so I would be ready for a full day of exploring. I got SOME sleep, but man was it tough sitting straight up like that! A couple inches between the seat and the wall would have been wonderful.
Terry

The airlines gave up on food on short haul flights a long time ago. Its hard to even serve drinks on a one hour flight. If you need food or drinks its easy to pick something up in the airport concourse. At least the airlines will still let you bring your own food and drink on board.
Muriel

I think that the problem is that there is no competition with the airlines in this country. If we had a well developed system of fast trains going all over the country people would have a real choice and everyone would have to step up their service. Fast trains are a great way to travel and would make sense on a lot of frequently travelled routes such as Boston-NY-Washington, allowing the airlines to concentrate on less travelled routes and deliver a better service.
Ruth

I don’t think air fares are that low. I recently chose to pay a premium for a non stop flight to avoid a dismal multi leg trip that I’ve taken before. I find out at the airport that my return flight was badly delayed and they rebooked me without consulting me onto the exact flight I paid extra to avoid–that I could have paid 1/2 for to begin with.
Rikaqui

How can you have a discussion of flight traffic/passenger problems, etc. in these times of Budget Deficits and Gov.Subsidies AND NOT MENTION THAT THE AIRLINES ARE SUBSIDISED BY THE US GOVERNMENT TO THE TUNE OF $1.89 TRILLION DOLLAR. Each seat’s cost get tax payer $$s – what happens when we cut Corporate subsidies?
Pain

I have a bad back and pain disability fibromyalgia. Torture is guaranteed. Why don’t airlines have to make true accommodations?
- sam liu
  
  pay the price then
http://www.facebook.com/people/Joseph-Rice/100000693874282 Joseph Rice

Another aspect of pricing that seems odd is that there seems to be only one extreme or the other – 1700.00 in first, 278 in coach (as one of my recent fair searches found. What if they had more gradation? If I go to a theater box office, there will likely be a range of ticket prices based on seating – I don’t think I have ever bought a theater ticket where my only options were 150.00 or 22.00.

Yes, the first class tickets are higher margin, but the coach seats aren’t exactly money losers – otherwise, they would go all first class (and I think all the airlines that tried that are gone).

We consumers purchase on price with no loyalty, because for the most part, the airlines themselves have made themselves into a commodity product (or at least one where the only differentiation they can offer is “we’re not as bad as that other airline”.

Maybe the government should intrude to the extent of making them give equal space in their advertisements to shots of a full coach section, and not just someone fully reclined in first class being served a glass of Champagne.

Joseph
Lcole

Don’t let these last two callers tell you how good things are. I am a million miler and I no longer fly if I can possibly travel another way. The airlines are losing business on short trips and they seem not to care. Buses are more comfortable! I upgrade whenever possible, but we need the federal government to require sufficient leg room and enough space to be able to walk/stretch. Thank you.
http://singingstring.org asongbird

Yes. Flew about a week ago on Delta nonstop to England. Trip out (overnight): no way to call crew, ac not working which means I got rather ill from the heat; flew coach and even at 4’11″ I could NOT move in my seat (suffered from acute claustrophobia and from legs falling asleep from cramped seating). Worried a lot about safety. Meal was pretty awful and crew surly.

I complained and received a personalized apology and added “miles” to my skymiles account.

Trip back: totally different EXCEPT the seating issue, which I consider very serious both from safety and comfort standpoint. Otherwise: very professional & courteous crew; meals were frequent and much better in quality; and the temperature comfortable.

I don’t fly often because it is such an ordeal. This experience doesn’t really make me eager to do it again.
Tink

It’s time to get over it. The luxury days are no more. People thinking they are entitled to everything the next guy has, and living on borowed money, has gotten folks into this mess. The time has come. We all have to adjust to cutbacks in services and conveniences. Make do with what we have. My husband and I have lived within our means, saved for the future. But for those who haven’t, it’s time to start. AMERICAN’S NEED JOBS. Write to your congress person. Share your ideas on what kinds of jobs are needed. What businesses we need to attract or build in our state.
- Gary
  
  Darn right. We should all travel on train cattle-cars and be glad of it….why when I was a kid……
  - Loren
    
    Modern high speed, regional and even metropolitan rail networks are increasingly how the rest of the advanced world is choosing to move, using a fraction of the energy and land, and generating a fraction of the pollution of air travel. A train ride, even on Amtrak in America, is far more spacious and luxurious than air travel is these days. Before you dismiss rail travel, give it a try. Then try rail travel overseas, and you’ll come back asking why isn’t America getting more into passenger trains as well.
- Dennis
  
  We need high-speed railroads so we won’t be crammed like sardines into flying tin cans.
- Junels1920
  
  My husband and I have lived within our means also, but that doesn’t make flying anymore delightful. The 2 things are not subsets of each other. There is a huge gap between luxury and being treated like a herd of animals. All I want is another inch for my legs and a smile from the attendant. Poor harrassed things; there is a job that could make a saint swear.
Terry

I think there’s a Homeland Security rule that does not allow for queues for the lavatories. You can only get up if there is no one ele in the asiles.
- Gary
  
  Homeland Security…..the American SS.
RD

That begs building a good fast rail network (and create jobs)… Wonder why traveling in Europe is fun.
rges

It is steerage I guess we need to get used to it. Just another example of the widening gulf between the middle and upper class The airlines don’t care about the possibility of deep vein thrombosis for someone stuck in a tiny seat and discouraged by everything and everyone from standing and moving. People suffer from panic attacks, or heat strokes while being stuck on the tarmac while they make a “quick” repair. I have seen engines on fire. Try to get off the plane while it is stuck on the ground and you probably will spend a long time with the air marshals.
woodchuck

I only fly when there is no other option. The last time I flew was to a funeral, Vermont to Atlanta and back. Coming back, I was on crutches. Ever try to walk on crutches while pulling a suitcase and wearing a backpack? Fun. But at Hartsfield they did get me a wheelchair, someone to push it for me, and I had the quickest trip through security ever. And people were nice. Really, that’s the most important thing — a flight attendant who can joke and make people laugh while helping cranky travelers cram stuff in the overhead can make the difference between miserable and tolerable. Still, I’ll take the train any day.
Terry

Tom,
Hasve you tried to take a train somewhere lately? If I want to take thr train to Chicago I have to drive from Nashville to Memphis, TN or drive to Indianapolis first. I would have a four to five hour drive first.
Gary

For what the airlines want for baggage, I can pay for a round-trip bus
ticket to see my folks for X-Mas….and have suffer no more than on a
airline
Chriscalspam

No one seems to consider the fact that the airline industry is not profitable! I could understand the outrage if the airlines were pocketing big profits, but they are struggling to find a business model that works. All the airline employees have taken massive pay and benefit cuts to subsidize cheap tickets, so now the airlines have miserable overworked employees to add to the already trying travel experience. Flyers need to vote with their feet and see if we can come up with a workable business model…
http://www.thehistoryofthings.com g. martinez cabrera.com

Just seeing this makes me want to scream, as I almost always want to do when I get locked into a forced yoga position in the tiny space that my overpriced ticket affords me.

As I get older, I want to see more of the world. I truly can appreciate the value of seeing other new things. But sometimes, the experience of getting there almost nullifies my wanderlust. Airplane travel is just that bad.
Ungar655

Let’s see, take off shoes, open luggage, empty pockets, fill bin with that and coat, purse, slide it all along, stand with arms out inside a radioactive device that may or may not be safely regulated to dose me with enough x-rays so someone in a remote location can see what I look like naked, then rush to get shoes on, coat, purse, pocket contents, zip bag and get the heck out of the way so long line of fellow sufferers can do same. Get on plane, take cramped seat for hours of flight with stale air recirculated with everyone on plane’s germs, drink if offered, no meal; now why didn’t I grab airport meal to drag along to plane with all my other stuff?? Try to nap, watch movie–sorry not on this flight, read, jiggle legs up and down so won’t get deep vein thrombosis because no one can move around on plane unless to visit postage stamp-sized potty. Finally get to destination, wait forever on tarmac in increasingly hot, stuffy plane and hallelujah! Free to do same when it’s time to go home.
Bob Liepman

Last month I had to travel cross country for a memorial. My non-stop Jet Blue flight, booked early, was affordable, efficient, and certainly the fastest way to go. The best part was the GPS in the rental car that directed me from Logan Airport to southern Maine. I did not observe any unhappy travelers. Easy!
Jay

Having some T.S.A. agent putting their hands hands over your private parts with greasy gloves that they don’t change regularly,

is the kind of hopeless “Change” most Americans can do without.
- Fafazudi
  
  it’s a shame you have to turn this political
Dogged Optimist

Elena is right. Most commenters sound like spoiled prep school kids whining because they are getting a second hand sports car for their 16th instead of a new foreign job. This kind of discussion is why NPR listeners get labelled elite. Have any complainers considered the carbon footprint of flying? Flying is not a fundamental need. I hope we do get the high speed trains and better bus service. Right now, thanks for Megabus. And maybe I just don’t get a luxury vacation, my boss works out other ways to do business, and I don’t get to see my relatives whenever I want.
http://twitter.com/cadill Cadill

The Oatmeal’s take: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/airplane_layout
Luke J.

Its really not that bad. All you have to do is fly Southwest. Roomy seats, cheap tickets, plus 2 free checked bags! Can’t get much better than that. I fly with them 6 times a year and will never fly with another company
Jacobs37075

Tom Ashbrook seemed to want to keep the discussion on this show at the level of personal anecdotes and complaints, with particular attention to his own complaint about cramped quarters. The captain who called made a number of points that could have elevated the discussion. He mentioned, for instance, that while passengers in economy class have less room and fewer amenities, many more people are able to be passengers for that reason; air travel has been “democratized”. He, or else another caller, also noted that the profit margin for airlines is very thin. (To that, I would add that the salaries of some pilots are low enough that some moonlight at second jobs, a circumstance raising safety concerns.)
I suggest that the moderator of the show try to acknowledge such observations more fully, rather than simply passing over them by saying, “I take your point, but”, so as to return to anecdotes and complaints. By refusing to acknowledge the captain’s points in any more meaningful way, Mr. Ashbrook gave the impression that it is somehow possible to have a lot of leg room and wonderful meals, while still paying very low ticket prices. That does not seem very likely, and indeed, Mr. Ashbrook offered no positive suggestions as to what should be done.
- http://richardsnotes.org Richard
  
  Jacobs: your post is right on target. Tom is a great moderator but this is his weak spot. He many times will go into a show with an agenda which he can’t seem to get rid of even when other branches of ideas show up. I too heard the pilot’s call which was level headed, empathetic and clear yet Tom seemed to want to push him to acknowledge only the bad stuff.
  
  No doubt moderating a show like this is tough but Tom’s a smart guy and no doubt could if he wished support many branches of a conversation simultaneously. I wish he would, it would improve the show.
  
  The piece of this puzzle that you and the pilot have acknowledged and a few callers mentioned is that many people have loyalty only to price and not to a particular airline. Those of us who have been flying for a long time have learned a secret that the movie Up in the Air underscores: loyalty to an airline (and not price) comes with rewards that can offset price and sometimes undercut it.
  
  When I started heavy business travel over twenty years ago it became obvious after year one that many of my domestic trips went through Chicago, either on American or United (Delta hadn’t rebuilt the Cincinnati airport yet). I made a choice that I was going to attempt to fly United on many of my trips, I joined Mileage Plus, got the Mileage Plus credit card and became a mileage junkie which is a very effective loyalty program (I joined the loyalty programs of all the airlines I flew, of course). Over the years the miles that I’ve accrued with this program have allowed my wife to rarely pay for a plane ticket, both of us to fly business class more often than not and have given me a level of service that while not always perfect, is better than it would be if I wasn’t a member.
  
  All airlines and many credit cards have loyalty programs and people who fly a lot who don’t make use of them are missing out on one way to make the process a bit easier.
  
  The other piece of this puzzle that frequent travelers have worked out is the process of traveling. Again I cite the movie Up in the Air as an example. Many people are still under the impression that airlines lose bags regularly so attempt to carry too much on the plane. This just isn’t true. Since baggage has been barcode tagged bags are rarely lost and I routinely check a bag when I fly and have never had a loss. What I bring on the plane easily fits in the overhead even when it’s already close to full and at my seat I generally have an iPhone, an iPad, a few magazines and my reading glasses. All of this makes the process of boarding and sitting easier, even in coach.
Anonymous

I’ve yet to hear any comparison to train travel, which has more legroom and space than flying, and is about the same or less than driving. And you’re not driving. Amtrak just projected 30million passengers this year.
Susan Schiller

I agree that the majority of air travel is truly awful but I have to give Jet Blue a shout out as they appear to take customer service seriously. I admit I’m fairly small at 5’1″ so I don’t have the “size” issues that most other flyers experience. But the Jet Blue crews have consistently been pleasant and helpful and I will fly them exclusively even if it costs me more.
-Susan Schiller
Boston, MA
Ryan Kipp

In 2008, I flew Northwest Airlines out to Idaho for our family vacation and my laptop never survived the trip. I intended to bring it with me as a carry-on to keep it safe, but while my family and I waited outside the terminal I was told by an Northwest employee that my computer case was too large for a carry-on. Not being a frequent flyer, I took her word for face value and my laptop was stowed with the rest of the flight’s luggage.

When I got my bags in Spokane, I quickly discovered that my laptop’s monitor had been crushed. The case was cracked and the screen displayed nothing but black LED ooze. All I ever got from the Northwest employee at the customer service desk was a faux-sympathetic smile while she told me that she would be happy to help me, so long as I could show them that my laptop hadn’t been damaged prior to boarding. Since I don’t routinely take photos of my computer, and a destroyed monitor prevented me from showing her the e-mails I had sent from my laptop while waiting for our plane, I left empty-handed.

I ended up paying to take my laptop to the dump, and paying more for the replacement.
- sam liu
  
  Northwest sucks!
  
  August 2001, it was a nightmare experience– oh yeah it was changed into a midnight flier.
  
  in the magazine, the ceo hoped students would upgrade to business class, I thought– no way. But if Singapore Air wanted me to upgrade or pay 4x the price, it would be my pleasure.
Joanie Burns

Tom, I think you are great but, you really disapointed me this time. The mentality that one needs a hot meal during a 4-hour flight is elitist and “American,” and I don’t mean the latter to be a compliment. I lived in Ireland – the home of Ryan Air – for 5 years. I was hearded like a cow onto many-a-flight but I made it to my destination safely. I cannot complain. My husband and I have lived in different states and countries for over half of our 11-year marriage (currently I live in Wisconsin and he lives in California); I travelled extensively for work; he travels to Europe or Asia at least monthly. The airlines love us, we spend a lot of money, but we get from “A” to “B” alive and in one-tenth of the time. I would hightly recommend listeners view Lewis CK’s monologue, “Everything’s Amazing but Nobody’s Happy.” You can find it on U-Tube. He talks about air travel and the fact that you can “have a cup of coffee, read the paper, and take a crap”…. 40,000 feet up in the air… and then arrive at your destination. It puts our entitlement attitude into perspective. Think about it people. We are so very fortunate. JAB
- Amy
  
  I agree, Joanie. I have encountered rudeness and discomfort on flights, and I react in just the same way that most people do (get annoyed, etc.), but at the end of the day, if I get to my destination in one piece, I’m happy.
sam liu

When are people gonna pay the price.
15 years ago roundtrip cost over $1300. The other day, the ticket cost close to $2000. Am I gonna complain? With the economy price ticket dips and rises, I will always take either Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific.

I haven’t taken a N. American-based carrier for over 8 years.
sam liu

roundtrip to China
Dan71395

Seemed like this discussion was very unbalanced against the airlines; people sometimes brag about a ridiculously low fare they have paid, do they want to people to work for the airline for minimum wage. The current economic model of competition has lead to this state of affairs; the airlines deserve some blame (if they don’t post the cost of baggage, etc, or intentionally obfuscate the price and service), but these problems after they are solved won’t help that competition in the airline industry is not fair. Think of it this way, suppose you were selling a car, but you had to sell it by 5PM, you had to take the best price you could get, or it blows up. That is what the airline is up against. Once the plane takes off, if that seat is empty it is like selling a car that blows up. If you are selling a car and you don’t get the offer you want, you can sell it tomorrow. Now it is true that some more regulation on the size of seats would be good and raise prices which also would be good. I agree that Tom makes it sound like it is a right to visit your relatives. Flying is not a right. I would be for more regulation such as size of seats and rows, and then the prices would have to rise and then Tom would have a program about how people cannot afford to visit their relatives.
janel

Was this program really on public radio? Tom Ashbrook sounded like one of those whiny hysterical network radio commentators who are the reason I turn to NPR. I find getting from point A to point B on a plane fun and quite amazing. Yes, sometimes the seating is tight and we’d like more room although my over six foot husband seems to cope with the seats OK and being significantly smaller than he, I can’t complain. We always make sure we have water and at least a couple of good snacks whenever we travel whether by foot, car, train, or plane, so the whole meal issue really is not a big deal for us. We’ve had our share of missed connections and delays, usually because of weather but occasionally because of mechanical problems; the last thing we would want is for the plane to take off in unsafe conditions. Last month a malfunction caused a 3-hour delay, and the airline gave each of us a hundred dollar certificate. We applied it to tickets for a trip almost all the way across the country resulting in a fare of about $150 a piece,- make that about $175 as we’ll check our luggage so we don’t have drag it around the airport. Barring unusual circumstances, we’ll get where we’re going faster than by any other mode of travel (and if it’s sunny, I’ll look out the window and learn some geography following our route in my pocket atlas).
Napikoski

I find it disheartening and, frankly, pathetic when people complain about air travel. It’s pretty much a miracle that you can fly across any country or continent in a matter of hours. None of us “deserve” that. We are not entitled to anything. I wish everyone who wants to complain about being whisked around the world over distances that would have taken our great-grandparents weeks to cover would just stay away from airports and airplanes. Real travelers know how to enjoy and appreciate flying. I can’t believe how people whine when they become airline passengers, nor can I believe how awful they are at using overhead bin space efficiently.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Bill-Fisher/100002384496916 Bill Fisher

Air travel in the US is indeed miserable. Airlines using deceptive pricing practices, airport security that is invasive and inefficient with surly employees at every turn. Flying international carriers outside the US demonstrates how bad it is in the US.

Their airlines are actually customer oriented, their security people are professional, don’t fondle passenger’s privates or steal their belongings and their systems work better that ours. No terrorist attacks in Asia or Europe in 20 years.

The airlines and TSA are co-conspirators in this abuse of travelers and those of you who support these policies are part of the problem.
Markus

I fly a couple of round trips per month. Used to fly much more, but changed my work to avoid travel as much as possible. I like seeing other places but flying has changed a lot over the last 30 years. Frankly, it’s miserable.
�
Though I have examples of gross stupidity by airlines, by and large, I think they’re in a tough spot. The volume of travelers has increased dramatically (the democratization someone referred to), a high percentage (maybe 30%) of their costs are in fuel which has gone up and as one CEO said “we’re the only industry which is held hostage to our dumbest competitor”. That said, some airlines have been so consistently dumb or just nasty, US Airways, for example, that I won’t go near them.
�
Security procedures seem the height of stupidity. I think we have the boiling frog metaphor at play here. I’m convinced you can pretty much put any burden on people as long as you do it gradually. Each inconvenience by itself seems small and people will always say, small price for safety. They never add it all up and ask if this is the best way to have safety. There are a lot of sheep in the world.
�
I’d love to see high speed rail. But I worry that after the first train is blown up, some nit wit will require scanners, pat downs and all the rest, then invade Canada cause the bomber snuck across the Canadian border.
�
Sorry for venting – just a little tired from my trip.
Mark S.

All airlines suck. All of them. Next question? Anyone? Buehler?
Suefrank

Two years ago I vowed to avoid air travel if at all possible. I was on a Delta flight where I couldn’t even cross my legs. I’m only 5’1″ and my feet don’t reach the floor. My back was in agony.

I just came back from a trip on Amtrak, two days each way. The train from NYC or Boston to Chicago, the Lake Shore Limited, was not such a pleasant experience; staff is not interested in service and were very poor communicators. In contrast, the Southwest Chief, from Chicago to LA, stopping in Santa Fe, my desitination, was just great! Other riders said they’d had good experiences on other trains but all agreed that the Lake Shore Limited lives up to its last name. On my way home I used the Amtrak map and schedule to figure out how to get to Chicago without taking that train, just adds four hours to the trip and with less
layover time in the Windy City, the big hub for cross-country travel.

If you have the time, Amtrak is a very civilized way to travel. A USA rail pass for 15 days cost $389 and allows for up to 8 segments of travel. I spent time with a friend out west then a few days with a niece in Buaffalo. Traveling alone the cost of a sleeper is unreasonable so I slept in my seat this trip; it was OK. The seats are wide, tilt back with padded leg rests. Take a little fleece blanket and your own pillow and you are all set. By the way silicone earplugs work really well and are very comfortable. Cheap too, check at your drugstore.

Sue
John

I enjoyed the program and am rather shocked at how many listeners scolded Tom. The show’s theme and somewhat lighthearted tone made the (well-justified) anti-airline bias pretty clear. Commercial air safety and the economics of the airline industry are serious issues, but I think one of the show’s chief purposes was to allow for a little venting and the exchange of anecdotes. Let’s not dismiss widespread unhappiness with the decline of air service.

Mr. Aboulafia is right about the fact that the flying public enjoys air travel that has become so cheap that the airlines can’t make a profit; it’s largely true that we get what we pay for. I completely disagree, though, with the premise that air travelers can’t or shouldn’t reasonably expect a modicum of comfort or customer service, irrespective of the fares they pay. It’s silly to expect first-class seat pitch, meal service, unlimited IFE, and solicitous cabin service when you’re paying $199 to fly cross-country, but most mainline carriers provide an appalling level of sub-par service in coach. I’ve given up expecting anything but the worst from legacy airlines: You get what you pay for ….

The other side of that same coin is what you get with low-cost, customer-oriented carriers like Southwest, who have now won me over. Southwest doesn’t pretend to sell a product that it doesn’t deliver, and passengers have shown they’re satisfied (indeed, extremely happy) with Southwest’s service by making it one of the most favorably rated, profitable, and punctual carriers in the industry. Their fare structure is reasonably straightforward and competitive, though Southwest fares aren’t uniformly the lowest. No first class, meal service, or IFE, but even on a four-hour flight, the somewhat more generous seat pitch, friendly cabin staff, and on-time performance unquestionably compensate for the minimal amenities. Southwest consistently delivers the product it promises – unlike United, Delta, American, and USAirways, whose customer service models (if you can call them that) are outmoded and not likely to attract loyal travelers.

John
Fussel

You get what you pay for.

I think the airlines do an absolutely astounding job of moving the public around the world safely.
- Jameswright
  
  You must not fly very often. Flying is miserable these days, and only getting worse. Coach seats are intentionally designed to be uncomfortable, the airlines think this is motivation for people to pay thousands more for a first class ticket. Some airlines have figured it out, Virgin, Arab Emirates, JPL. But those airlines are more expensive. The seats could easily be redesigned to have more cushion, adjustable lumbar, etc. But it costs money. That money is already pilfered by greedy executive pay. U.S air carriers should be forced, since almost all foriegn carriers do more to make passengers safe and comfortable.
Bob

It would be fairly straightforward problem in mechanical engineering (suitable for a project in a senior design class?) to come up with an airline seat that reclined by consuming the legroom of the _person_ _reclining_ rather than the legroom of the person _behind_ the person reclining.

Of course, it probably would be more expensive to build than the torture devices they use now (speaking as someone who’s 6’3″ and whose height is all in his legs …)
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http://www.facebook.com/007saleh Saleh Hussein

I bought a return ticket from Australia to Cairo via Bangkok
with Egypt air
in my way back When I left Cairo every thing was fine at the
airport.
on the 29 January I proceeded to Bangkok Airport to board my Flight
to find the check in people at Thai Airways telling me that there is no
reservation for me. They escorted me to Egypt Air desk but no one there could
find my booking either. I had to pay the equivalent of $1000 Australian dollar
to buy a ticket to come to Melbourne. Upon my return to Australia, I contacted
my travel agent and he contacted egypt air office in Sydney. After a week of
correspondence they advised I should send e-mail to egyptair as the matter is
beyond their control. I contacted egypt air and explanation for them the
situation but they don’t answer me .
I believe I suffered at the hands of
Egypt Air . The booking that I made (and paid for) with Egypt air was not
accepted at the Bankok airport and so I had to pay twice. I have received no
help in getting a refund from egypt air.
Regards,
Saleh Abdel-rehim

Saleh152001@yahoo.com
+61430375339
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1627271971 Liz Geraldes

Avoid Copa Airlines at all cost. They are running a scam with their policies. Even their website, is full of scams. I brought tickets from them, because they allow pets incabin, and when I paid for my tickets, they than told me I had to fly with another airline, that does not allow pets. The only reason why I chose Copa, was due to their pet policy, and they want to charge me an extra 800 dollars, plus my spouse another 800 dollars, Total 1600, just to change my flight to their airline, just what I wanted to do initially. I even have the receipt that states that I was originally going to take Copa Airlines, they changed it at the last minute, nor felt the need to notify me. Not even United had us in their system. After a week of complaining, now my tickets say that I am taking United. This is a big issue with me! They have lied to me, they treat me like a bank account, they do not allow me to speak to a supervisor, they are giving me various prices, one says for me to pay 615 per person extra, another person says 800 per person, then one says I can’t bring my dog, another says I can.. They don’t know what they are doing, but it doesn’t matter, if they mess up, it is YOUR FAULT. That’s their real policy. It’s been 4 months and I am still trying to contact someone who will help me from Copa. Not even my credit card company can get in contact with them, nor the Better Business Bureau. I need help! I am not made out of money, I need someone to seriously help me and treat me like a person, not a bank account.

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