In Spite Of Everything: Generation X And Marriage

We’re talking about Gen X marriage in the shadow of boomer divorces, and the longing not to do what their parents did – the longing not to break up.

Generation X reconsiders marriage. (jcoterhals/Flickr)

Generation X reconsiders marriage. (jcoterhals/Flickr)

Susan Gregory Thomas’s baby boomer parents split up, divorced, and nearly destroyed the elements of their family.

She, and a lot of other Generation X survivors of boomer divorces, swore it would never, ever happen to her.

She would be more careful. She would marry a true friend. They would stay together no matter what. No matter how bad it got. For the kids.

And then they failed, too.

Now, she’s writing about a stony Gen X determination not to repeat boomer marriage failures –- and its costs.

This hour On Point: Gen X marriage, in the shadow of boomer divorce. And Erica Jong responds.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests:

Susan Gregory Thomas, author of In Spite of Everthing: A Memoir. She’s a former senior editor at U.S. News & World Report who’s also written for Time magazine, The Washington Post, and Glamour.

Erica Jong, the author of “Sugar in my Bowl” and many works of fiction and non-fiction that opened the way for women of her generation to think differently about sex. You can read her latest New York Times column here.

This hour we’ll hear:

“Violet” by Hole
“Sugar in My Bowl” by Nina Simone
“Father of Mine” by Everclear

From Tom’s Reading List:

Excerpt from In Spite of Everything: A Memoir by Susan Gregory Thomas

PROLOGUE: MORE THAN THIS

Every generation has its life-defining moment. If you want to find out what it was for a member of the Greatest Generation, you ask: “Where were you when Hitler invaded France?” or “Where were you on D-Day?” If you want to find out what it was for a Baby Boomer, there are three possible questions: “Where were you when Kennedy was shot?” or “Where were you when you heard about Kent State?” or “Where were you when the Watergate story broke?”
For most of my generation—Generation X—there is only one question: “When did your parents get divorced?” Our lives have been framed by the answer. Ask us. We remember everything.

My dad left in the early spring of 1981, while my mother was leading a school trip to England. While she was away that week, Dad was in charge. I was twelve; my brother, Ian, was nine.

On the first night, Dad called to say he was running late, that he might not be there by dinnertime. We’d never had to make dinner for ourselves before, but I knew that Mom had a stash of Stouffer’s French bread pizzas in the freezer. Unsettled, Ian and I were nonetheless united in one thought: unmediated access to TV. We sat on the floor of our parents’ room, watched Magnum, P.I., and ate the pizzas. We ended up falling asleep on the rug.

When we woke up the next morning, our father was lying on top of the bed in his dark gray pinstripe Brooks Brothers suit, his standard investment management uniform. The whole room smelled of Dad: scotch, sweat, and shaving cream. His white dress shirt was pressed to his chest like wet tissue paper; his face was dusted with unfamiliar salt-white whiskers. Ian and I looked at each other, scared. Dad was a perennial early riser: up hours before anyone else, impeccably shaved and dressed—reading the paper and drinking coffee by 5:30 a.m. It was now after eight; we had to be at school, sitting at our desks, by 8:25. Ian and I swapped staccato whispers over our father’s body, when suddenly he opened his eyes, webbed with raw capillaries. “Let’s go,” Dad growled, and got up immediately. We followed, mute. He drove us to our respective schools without a word.

The second night, no phone call. It was cold in the house; usually, it took two furnaces to heat it, and I didn’t know how to turn them on. I called our current babysitter, a college student at Villanova University named Carol. I told her that my dad wasn’t home and asked if she could call him. There was a pause on the line. Then she said she’d be right over. She was there in fifteen minutes.

The next afternoon, I came home from school and no one was there. My brother had been taken to Cub Scouts by someone’s mother, I think, and Carol was still in classes. I was in the kitchen prying frozen orange juice concentrate out of its canister when my dad pulled up. I looked out the kitchen window, waiting for him to get out of the car. A few minutes went by. I went outside.

He was sitting in the driver’s seat of his sports car, a plastic tum¬bler of scotch in his hand. He was wearing the same clothes. He didn’t look at me. I ripped a hangnail off my thumb and chewed it. Finally, I opened the door and got in. “Hi, Dad,” I said.

He didn’t say anything. The ashtray was open; there were three cigarette butts inside, each O’ed with pink lipstick. He tilted the tum¬bler back, slipped the scotch into his mouth, opened the car door, got out, and popped the trunk. My thumb had bled onto the sleeve of my white school shirt.

When I came around to the back of the car, I saw that there was a case of scotch in the trunk. Dad was pouring from a newly opened bottle into his tumbler. He silently screwed the cap back on and clinked the bottle into the box. He chugged it back, eyes closed. He set the glass on the hood.

“Everything okay here?” he asked.

“Carol came,” I said, sucking at my thumb.

“Can she stay?”

“I don’t know.”

“I have to go on a business trip,” he said. “As it turns out.” He slammed the trunk shut and finally looked at me.
“I have to go now,” he said. “Call if you need me.” He squeezed my shoulder, got in the car, and drove out of the driveway.

After a few moments, I sat down. I was wearing the navy blue tunic uniform of my all-girls’ school, and loose driveway pebbles stuck to my bloomer-covered bottom and the backs of my thighs. I wrapped the belt of my tunic around my wound. It was cold and wet still, early spring. The edges of the front yard were flanked by for¬sythia, which were just budding Crayola yellow. I’d never had his number to begin with.

“Whatever happens, we’re never going to get divorced.”

Over the course of sixteen years, I said that often to my husband, Cal, especially after our two daughters were born. No marital sce¬nario would ever become so bleak or hopeless as to compel me, even for a moment, to embed my children in the torture of my own split family. After my dad left (with his secretary, who would become his second of three wives), the world as my brother and I had known it ended. Just like that. My mother, formerly a regal, erudite figure, shape-shifted into a phantom in a sweaty nightgown and matted hair, howling on the floor of our gray-carpeted playroom. Ian, a sweet, doofusy boy, grew into a sad, glowering giant, barricaded in his room with dark comic books, graphic novels, and computer games. I would spend the rest of middle and high school getting into a lot of surprisingly bad trouble in suburban Philadelphia: chain-smoking, doing drugs, getting kicked out of schools, ending my senior year in a psychiatric ward. Our dad was gone. He immediately moved five states away, with his new wife and her four kids. Whenever Ian and I saw him, which was, per his preference, rarely, he grew more and more to embody Darth Vader: a brutal machine encasing raw human guts. Growing up, Ian and I were often left to our own devices, circumstances that did not so much teach us how to take care of ourselves as simply how to survive. We dealt. We developed detached, sarcastic riffs on “our messed-up childhood.”

We weren’t the only ones. The particular memorabilia that comprise each family’s unhappiness are always different, but a lot of our friends were going through the same basic stuff at the time— and a lot of people our age we didn’t know were, too. The divorce epidemic of the 1970s and ’80s wiped out nearly half our generation.

Excerpted from IN SPITE OF EVERYTHING: A Memoir by Susan Gregory Thomas. Copyright 2011 by Susan Gregory Thomas. Excerpted by permission of Random House, an imprint of the Random House Publishing Group. All rights reserved.

 
  • JP

    It seems simple to me:

    99.5% of Americans are spoiled to the point of living in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction… just listen to the trivial stupidities everyone around you is whining about, then compare their lives to those living in real deprivation or tragedy in our world.

    Modern media parades an endless stream of the fantasy of perfection and opportunity before gullible Americans, and we’re kept to comatose and ignorant to realize what a lie it all is.

    Far too few in our country have the least clue how to appreciate what’s in front of them, and they’re taught from birth that greed, covetousness, and material wealth are the only worthwhile virtues in our society…

    … how can any American be expected to be at peace with another when they’re never at peace with themselves?

    This is only getting worse, and one can look no further than the quickening trend in American politics and the conservative movement toward self-centeredness anti-socialness since 2010 for confirmation of my point…

    • Cory

      Great post, JP.

    • Sam Wilson

      JP great post, just to add one more thing, even if one of the spouses believes in “I, Me, Myself”, any marriage is just seconds away from disaster.

    • Chev

      Jp, you sum it up perfectly for me.  

    • Kenkneram

      It goes back a lot further than that. Try Before Regan. Very good points. People look down on others who do unapealing or unglamerious jobs.  “Why don’t you marry a nice Doctor?” “What you need is to marry a fat ritch lawyer.”  “Ohh that guy makes a lot of money, you should marry him.”  No one says “That garbage man has integrity he will be a good husband.”  or “That farmer is kind and practal, he will be a good match.”  Far too meny people equate income with fitness for marrage that most fail to see that the guy with $1,000,000.00 is a real asshole, cheeter and abuser.

  • Cory

    A message to those not yet married:

    1.  It is harder than you think.

    2.  Think hard about who you are with before procreating.

    3.  Every decision becomes a negotiation.

    4.  Nothing wrong about staying single if not absolutely certain.

    5.  It’s a 50/50 proposition, especially in pleasure vs pain.

  • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

    Another message to those considering marriage: If one of you snores don’t do it.

  • elis

    heart wrenching piece of writing.  I was one of those who divorced in that time, having married at age 18 and pregnant.

    But second time around, now happily married for close to 30 years.  Yes, there are negotiations, there have been many hard times figuring it all out, but it has been worth it.   It has been so much more than a 50 50 proposition pleasure vs pain.  Maybe 90 pleasure 10 pain.  

    And now in late middle age I live with my best friend, surrounded by our children (including the first one born when I was so young), friends, neighbors and colleagues.  Most of my friends are also happily married.  

    It is work, it takes a lot to listen to the other, really listen.  To learn to articulate what you really need without recrimination, to understand that both of you have to change and to do it gracefully.  It takes a lot also to remain yourself within the context of a strong partnership.  My marriage has given me much.

    But on the other hand, I know many who have not found a strong marriage.  They have found other paths through life, and are strong and solid in their lives.  Marriage is one option of how to go through life.  I see that many are choosing another path.  There is a richness also in having your life totally on your own terms.  

    No need to denigrate one over the other.  Too long have we suggested that married life is the only or the best or the most mature way to be an adult.  We need to open ourselves to the richness of remaining single too, or of finding oneself single after a time of marriage.  

    Both paths are hard, both paths are rich.  No need any longer to denigrate one or the other.  

  • Ed

    Our society – as seen recently in New York – doesn’t support marriage and families very well. One statistic to note is that couples who use natural family planning have a 2% divorce rate, instead of 25-50%: better communication and built-in mutual respect. A plus on all sides.

    • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

      “Natural family planning” as in, gay marriage. Excellent. I’m for it.

      • Brett

        No abortion in a gay marriage, Ed, no sir, not one! 

    • Brett

      Hmm? Uh, so, let’s see, sex ONLY for the purposes of procreation? What do you mean by “natural family planning”? Do you mean no condoms, bc pills, diaphragms, etc.? Or are you referring to using only contraceptives made of natural ingredients? …a little fuzzy, there, Ed, a little fuzzy…just a little bit…wait just a doggone minute…Ed, are you really trying to say that families free of ABORTION have a lower divorce rate?  

    • Dpweber83

      “Our society – as seen recently in New York – doesn’t support marriage and families very well.”

      Those tax breaks aren’t doing enough for you?

      “Built-in mutual respect.”  

      You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?  That natural family planning necessarily leads to mutual respect, that it’s built-in?

      -dan
      Boston, MA

    • Anonymous

      Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the country. 

    • Timeofchange

      What?? This is crazy, marriage began as a contract and remains as a contract….should not exclude any fool that wants in.

  • Lucy

    I’m disappointed that this book by Susan Gregory Thomas has been getting so much glowing press as I don’t think her experiences are representative of our generation (certainly not for me, a fellow gen-xer). 

    While I am also the child of divorce, I see it as a positive thing – divorce enabled my mother to be protected from an abusive man, and new laws helped ensure that this decision did not leave her and us destitute. Of course I share the author’s desire to avoid divorce personally, but I also have a healthy respect for the practice and for the women who used it to protect themselves and their families, or even just to exercise their well-earned autonomy and create a life more well-suited to them. Although there are exceptions to every rule, I think mothers generally tend to make the best decisions for their families, and sometimes divorce is unfortunately the best decision.This is really just a book about one person’s personal experience – the lack of statistical rigour is breathtaking. There was a lot of hysteria about divorce, working mothers and “latchkey kids” in the 80s and 90s, and this book rehashes a lot of those old, discredited arguments without adding anything new. How boring to keep revisiting these tired arguments! 

    • Archima

      Hi Lucy,

      Divorce was a good thing for you and your family because there was serious abuse. unfortunately that’s not true in most cases.
      I think Jung said- “The opposite of love is not hate; the opposite of love is FEAR.”  This is so often the legacy of divorce.

      My parents were quite imperfect, but much family and community was near
      and divorce (and abuse) just wasn’t acceptable -not consistent with the entire
      concept of family and community.

      My Wife is a wonderful person, but as a child of Divorce and it has
      haunted our relationship and never seems never to go away.
      It has hurt us and our family, and will probably eventually undo us.
       

  • Yar

    How has divorce undermined the stability of the family, and who profits from it?  Elizabeth Warren  wrote about the two income trap, where the second income earner’s energy goes entirely to pay for childcare, extra transportation and other expenses, the family was far worse off with that second job.  So why do people do it?  With divorce rates of 50 percent, a partner simply cannot afford to stay out of the market because they have such high percentage chance of needing that income a career offers.  This relationship between investing in the family unit and investing in self is directly linked to divorce rates and is exploited by the market. 

    If you believe the basic unit of society is the individual, then you should not get married, however if you view the family as the basic societal unit then maybe marriage is for you, but only if your partner shares those views as well. Families are union strong, it is harder to destroy the will of an individual when they have unwavering family support.  Families resist exploitation, they can even incite revolutionary change.  Strong families are dangerous to exploiters of individuals.  We see a reflection of our emotional self in others, family is often the only opportunity to see an accurate reflection of ourselves.   Without an true emotional reflection we may go crazy, not to say that families always offer a true reflection, but they have a vested interest in avoiding crazy.

    • Ellen Dibble

      That’s quite poetic, on family in society.
          Consider, though, family made more sense when there were many children.  I don’t know the statistics, but when families expected a half dozen children, and before modern conveniences, then it made a lot more sense to have one partner “keep the home fires burning,” while the other brought in income.
           Now, in a family with a couple of children, and with life expectancy going a lot beyond say 47 years (the average about 1910), the role of the stay-at-home is different.  I’d think women would not feel fulfilled staying home and pushing the button on the washing machine and so on.

      • Yar

        Don’t assume that the woman should be the one staying home.  There is a lot more than pushing buttons, I was a homemaker who actually made the home. I built the house and took care of the kids, 3 at 3 years apart.  She had a professional career, it worked until she decided to spend the college fund on travel.  I will be very careful before getting into another relationship, actually I got a lot out of our 20 year marriage, I have three wonderful children, and I still have the home. No debt and no regrets.  I loved and she lost because she was unable to accept that love.  I am the parent that is close to my children.

        • Ellen Dibble

          I recall what you’ve written before.  Good for you.  But I do hope your ex found a new center of gravity somehow.  Anyway.  Another show will maybe address the shifts that happen around the time of retirement, when people might be thinking of moving to new locations, maybe of spending a lot more time together; people might be more vulnerable in certain ways.  It’s no longer about oh, how about a candlelight supper; now it’s careful eye contact that wordlessly says, If you needed to find me, I’d want you to be able to find me, at any time.
              And there seems to be no rush.  Only death stands at the door, not the competitor.  If there is someone else in the room telegraphing the same message, fine; the world has time and space for all.   It’s not such a competition to be numero uno.  It’s people wanting to be there for each other if they can help, not wanting to be in the way.  And the Social Order doesn’t really help out.  Facebook does not.  Old people die on the vine, fallen in a heap, with a couple dozen individuals out there who would have walked across town to assist, but conventions of usually rational restraint get in the way.

  • jim

    for the motivated but unemployed chaps… it is a boon for divorce legal service. be a filthy rich attorney.

  • Dpweber83

    My baby boomer folks split in a nasty divorce.  Avoiding that is one of my goals in life.

    -dan
    Boston, MA

  • Steve

    I’m right in the center of the GenX demographic. I’ve been married for 15 years, and both my wife and I are educated professionals. Even still we don’t have the same kind of real wealth our parents and grand-parents had. All of whom, with one exception, were divorced at least once. As a result of this financial reality we continue to stick it out in our marriage even though we have discussed getting divorced many times over the years.

  • salzburg

    Is this now a show on hoarding?

  • Dbianco74

    Studies show that married couples who are both into swing dancing are happier and divorce less frequently. Find a studio near you TODAY! :)

  • Timeofchange

    I think that it is unnatural for people to stay together for a lifetime with the longer life expectancy we now experience. Divorce should be made to be more acceptable, done better and made easier. That this woman had her life defined by her parents divorce seems to me to be more about the way it was done, the way she was raised and her particular personality. No one should stay in a marriage for the children or for any other reason if they do not want to.
    Self serving books such as this that promote neurosis and cast blame do not help anyone.

  • Anonymous

    pain is pain.  i am sorry for all the suffering.  what i take from this discussion is that the boomer belief that no one before them had ever felt “fill in the blank” feeling, has successfully been passed along to their children.  i’m sorry but this discussion is as old as the hills.  the pendulum swings back and forth.

  • Kenkneram

    People don’t seem to consider that it takes moore than love to make a relationship work. There are to meny people who don’t look at the reality of long term cohabitation and truly consider wether or not  they can live together.

    Also ant bride who (on her wedding day) says “Well if this doesn’t work out we can always get a devorse,” SHOULD NOT BE GETTING MARRIED!  I have herd 3 women say this on there wedding day. 2 are now devorsed and the 3rd is totally miserable.   These women KNEW that they were makeing a mistake but they did it anyway.

  • gala

    I am 30. I wanted to get married to my ex when I was 27, whom I dated for 1.5 years. We lived together, met each others families, did things together, etc …  but that relationship ended ugly.

    Now, I would consider potential spouse very seriously. We would have to be very compatible on the major important points: values, morals, goals. It’s not about LOVE anymore. Loving someone is not enough to make the marriage work.

    But, it’s hard to find a good man these days, especially in his 30′s.

    As the saying goes, the good men are all taken.

    • Kenkneram

      That works both ways. Do you know how hard it is to find a non-smokeing woman over 25 these days?

      • gala

        Try the gym. I found it very hard to smoke and maintain a healthy lifestyle.
        Or try getting into triathlons. Those chicks are as healthy as they come. Or joining a local health food movement.

        My single friends and I have decided to meet people, single and not, by doing things that we enjoy doing. I met a lot of people volunteering and through my local CSA, doing photography on amatuer level and joining meetup groups with the same interests. And if there isn’t a meetup group that shares the same interests, start one. :)

        Good luck.

  • Ren Knopf

    Having been a poster parent – what to do and what not to do – for my daughter, I see in her marriage one year later, the roots of friendship, love and understanding – read communication, that bode well for its’ flexibility and growth. I am delighted.

  • gala

    I don’t believe in “soul mate” anymore …

    Had one too many. :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Colin-Buckley/100000867530967 Colin Buckley

    I was 18 when my parents divorced in 1990, and while it was tough at the time, it ended up good in the long run. My parents are great friends, and we spend time together as a family. It has taught me that divorce doesn’t have to be nasty and bitter, and that friendship certainly was possible after a divorce.

  • Amyfarley

    Tom,
    I would love to hear the conversation shift to “good and bad” divorce.  How presumptuous and destructive to generalize all divorce as failure, inherently “worse than” staying married, and traumatic without exception for children.  I am recently divorced, and the social stigma for myself and my child is cruel and unfair.  My former spouse and I have worked just as diligently to have a good divorce as we did to have a good marriage.  Indeed, much of our marriage was lovely and successful, but ending it was necessary due to some very difficult personal circumstances.  Our son is VERY happy and healthy, with two loving parents who are kind to one another.
    I implore the author to differentiate between SUCCESSFUL divorces and unsuccessful divorces.  

  • Will

    My parents split up, father leaving for one of his grad students when I was in 7th grade. My mother was crushed and died 5 years later in what could largely be attributed to the divorce. It altered the direction of my life and my siblings.

    Now in my 40′s and having been with my girlfriend of 8 years we are determined to stay together (not yet married)…her parents are each now on their 3rd marriages. As of yet we do not have children and lack health insurance so likely never will. Our financial picture is far different.

    I find the men of the boomer generation pretty self-indulgant and lacking dimension. They expect to be waited on and are often incapable of expressing meaningful emotion. They worked one or two jobs there whole life, could never imagine cooking a meal, washing dishes or doing an occasional load of laundry. So many men of this generation that I know left for younger women…simply not good role models for younger generations and a total deviation from their parents. I realize that this is a gross generalization but from what I have witnessed, I vow to go a different direction…

  • JR

    I’m getting married this summer. I’m Gen-Y (33), he’s Gen-X. My parents are happily together, his divorced when he was in middle school. Like Winona Rider’s character, he took on adult responsibilities and didn’t really have a childhood.

    I don’t know about “soulmates” but consciously nurturing the friendship and “team” aspect of our relationship relaxed him enough to realize: it will never be perfect. He will never be perfect – but he doesn’t have to replicate his parents. Marriage will be a leap of faith, but also a commitment to work, and we both have to be humble and forgiving every day. Perhaps it’s the humility and forgiveness that the Boomers lacked?

  • Metathustra

    I think too many have a fantasy of marriage and soul mates. I’m gay and because of the conflict between the romantic notion of the fairy-tale wedding/marriage/happily-ever-after (sold to us in church, on TV, in politics, and in school) and the reality in front of us, I’ve never been inclined toward marriage. I would like a child one day and I’ve actually been in a serious relationship for 10 years (he’s even on my health insurance!), but even though CT allows gay marriage, we have no plans to tie the not.

  • guest

    gee. i was thinking i was too ‘young’ to really be a gen-xer, but this convo is distracting me from my work, it sounds so familiar! I’ve been w/my husband since 16. We live together for many years  before marrying. Somehow, he’s more like my roommate or son than my husband to me now….at least not by my definition of ‘husband’

  • Carlotta Tyler

    The institution of marriage is being renegotiated over the past 40 years, since the women’s liberation movement. Data: nearly 1/3 of live births in Western Europe and North America are to single-mothers-by-choice who make the choice for children, cannot find a marriage commitment that feels right and are able to support themselves and children.

    • M E P 50

      Actually the number is 41%. 41% of births in the U.S. are to single mothers and it’s more like single mothers-by-accident….most of these pregnancies are unplanned. The growth of unwed childbearing in the U.S. is concentrated among lower educated women. Something like only 5% of all the births to unmarried women are to women with 4 year college degrees.
      Having a child on your own is difficult on every level.  The child is far more likely to live in poverty and be at risk for school problems, as well as emotional and behavioral problems. Having an unplanned pregnancy is highly associated (whether you are a teenager or 20-something) with “relationship turburlence.” The relationships are more unstable, more conflicted, less happy. New relationships lead to new births and greater family complexity. All extert tremendous stress and strains on children and adults.  Take a look at the largest on-going study of “fragile families” defined as first births to unmarried parents. These children experience more relationship instability and poorer child outcomes.  See Fragile Families and Child Well being Study

  • Mary Claire

    I want to present the other side of the story.  Baby Boomers who married and are still happily together.  I am in the middle of that generation married to someone born in the 40′s.  Been married 33 years…have many friends and contemporaries still married…20 and 30 plus years.  My 20 something son understands that that is something to be celebrated and has told us he appreciates the stability we  provided as he sees his friends deal with separation and divorce.

  • Marion

    I’m a Boomer myself.  I watched *my* parents divorce in the late 60′s/ early 70s (it was complicated & lasted a long time).  (I just heard the line on the air, “They had sex, so I didn’t have to” — I said in my teens, “they call it adultery because it’s something adults do” – and I had no interest in sex because it was what my parents did, not what I wanted to do.)  

    I avoided marriage until late, and finally married intending never to divorce… but here I am: my husband got tired of the marriage, and moved in with a girlfriend.  I’m spending time lately with a Boomer guy in a similar situation:  His parents divorced in the 60s, he married young and was a fine husband/father — but recently his wife got tired of their marriage and moved out.

    Don’t blame the Boomers for marital problems in GenX! — this is a very old story that’s been going on for generations.

  • Tony

    I’m a Gen-Xer who is the product of a very healthy marriage. My parents — both of whom were born in 1941 — are exemplars of what it means to be a loving couple. That said, I see nothing heroic or valiant in advocating that people gut out a marriage simply for the sake children. I’ve seen too many marriages in which the husband and wife simply go through the motions so that the marriage can be preserved for the children. As a result, the marriages are horrible examples to their children because the children don’t learn what it means to be in a loving, warm, committed marriage. And at some point, the children will discover their parents were not in love and their once-assumed perfect nuclear family was a ruse. Besides, I think children are a lot more resilient, adaptable and understanding than we believe. I’ve seen lots of children of divorced parents grow into outstanding young adults, just as I have seen lots of children from nuclear families grow up with severe problems. Sometimes, divorce is in the children’s best interest.

  • Kimberly

    As a 41 year old woman happily married for 11 years and having gone thru the divorce of my parents when I was a girl, I’ll say I’m A HUGE believer in divorce! It is utterly exhausting to be the child of parents who took TOO LONG to divorce!  I wish they would have cut their losses and moved on YEARS before they really did.  I see peers who are keeping horrible marriages alive for the sake of the kids and to avoid the pain of divorce and they are living a a special kind of hell as a result.  Divorce isn’t the problem, personal responsibility for ones issues is the only way toward happiness. It doesn’t matter if someone is divorced or single or in a horrible marriage.  We can’t get out of doing the personal work of self healing.

  • Mimi

    I am a tail-end baby boomer, born in 1963.  My husband and I have been married nearly 19 years, and I can count on BOTH hands the number of times we’ve considered throwing in the towel.  However, because we love our two daughters and feel a deep obligation to them, each time, with therapy, prayer, and an absolute determination neither to leave nor live in an angry, hate-filled, defensive marriage, we’ve worked it out and become stronger.  

    We’re all hopelessly flawed.  Success in marriage comes only through consistent forgiveness and striving to love each other unconditionally.  

    I fully expect that before we’re married another 19 years, we’ll go through the process at least another handful of times, but that knowledge makes doing it no less valuable!

  • Ellen Dibble

    I hear these women whose voices have defined self-concept for a while talking about expectations out of marriage that seem far-fetched.   I’m wondering if women get married BECAUSE they have outlandish expectations, but men are actually saner about prospects.  They get to offer the ring, after all, which seems to make sense.
        I don’t think it’s babyboomers who expected the moon, whether female or male.  I think it’s human biology and persists.  People wouldn’t get together at all if it weren’t for the psychological underpinnings.  We’d be like pandas and keep our distance.

  • Elizabeth

    I do think it is interesting that the speakers are generalizing our generations marriage as having less than desirable sex lives.  Maybe that is what they tell themselves to feel better about the high divorce rate in their generation.

  • Rebecca

    Marriage is between two people, so it’s not possible for just one of them to fulfill a vow of never divorcing. People are hugely complex and relationships are too. As the child of divorced parents, and as a parent who divorced when her children were 10 and 13 (9 years ago), I feel it’s clear that people change, needs change, the person you were when you married with optimism and commitment is the not person you will become over time (and the same for your spouse). This does not mean that divorce is inevitable by any stretch. But ‘keeping married’ is also no inevitable simply because you want that. Better to accept that this is possible and to develop ways to be honest, resilient, and happy in your life, and to solve problems/make changes where necessary. And teach your children to do the same.

  • Sara

    The Gottman Institute out of Seattle has done decades of research on relationships.  They have found certain attributes of relationships that most often lead to divorce and others that lead to strong long term relationships.  Very interesting and helpful!

  • Kim

    I think it’s a lot to ask that two people stay together as long as they both shall live. Marriage is a complicated mystery to me and it seems. many others. Given that, the focus should be on the children and learning how to make divorce less stressful for them. When my parents divorced, I was 11 and my world was turned upside down. It wasn’t the divorce per se, but the change in my parents, the loss of familiar things (home, friends, routines, proximity to beloved grandparents etc. etc.-), the addition of step-family and all their complications, and most of all the expectation that I was to “step up to the plate” and sail through all this gracefully and unquestioningly.

  • Anonymous

    I think the biggest problem in relationships is that men cannot fulfill the ancient role of “provider and protector” as they once did.  In a world where women are encouraged to aspire in professional careers and are taught how to protect ourselves, many men are left confused and feeling less confident.  Additionally, I think many men believe that it is a “man’s world” and whatever they don’t get at home there are several other women who will quickly and easily give it to them.  This is very obvious in the media and is reinforced by desperate women who are afraid to be alone, thereby denying themselves the respect they deserve, and making a mockery of what other women fight for.

  • Betty

    It is interesting that the two guests who are discussing marriage have had one or more failed marriages.  Is this where the expertise is?  At one point Ms. Jong wailed about how hard marriage is, how hard you have to work at it.  Really?  My husband and I have been married for over 30 years and we do not find that to be true at all.  Perhaps if you marry someone that you love, but also like and respect, and if you are kind, thoughtful and not too selfish it is not so terribly hard.  Why would you want to be a part of something that is such miserable hard work?  If you find it that difficult, don’t get married.  It’s OK not to be.

  • GMG

    Great point about the checklist  There is a mystery to the combination of things that work, quite inimical to a preconceived list of items. I wonder if approaching marriage with this kind of list has anything to do with divorce, or maybe that magical combination can result in divorce as often as anything else.

  • Travis

    Erica Jong~ In stead of relying on passion and desire, how would it be to refocus sexuality as a caring for, a giving, to each other’s primal force well-being~ sexuality as a reciprocal practice.

  • Pam

    The guest’s comments regarding the children of divorce working to avoid divorce at all costs could not be more true.  Both my sister and I were deeply hurt by our parent’s difficult divorce in the 70′s and we are both in solid marriages of 21 and 30 years respectively.   We both also married men that we previously considered friends.  My husband and I regard our “friendship first” model to be a very important part of our marriage. 

  • Bobbie Jo Caine

    This is a great story that really resonates with me. I am 28 and come from a very unstable childhood – in regards to marriage. My grandmother was married and divorced 4 times, my mother was married and divorced 4 times, and my father is going on number 3, but has been living with the mother of his 6 year old for 7 years and they are not planning on marrying anytime soon. I have seen (and still see) a lot of unhappiness in my parents relationships. This legacy has always haunted me and I used to worry that this was inevitably going to happen to me. I waited until 27 to get married and really waited for “that feeling”. I am now married to a wonderful husband and feel so blessed. I have kind of navigated the dating and marriage world without advice from my parents. However, I think it has been a great experience because it has allowed my husband and I to grow together based on our own experiences and not relying on our parents. 

  • jane

    We use such detrimental language on this matter.  When my spouse and I decided that we had no option but divorce (because, by the way, there were issues in my own life that I had not faced earlier but which impacted my ability to have a healthy relationship, and I came from a home with an excellent marriage but poor parenting), I made it clear to my child as well as our friends that the term “broken home” would not be tolerated in our presence.  My child’s home is no more broken that the homes of a large degree of still-married homes.  He is well aware, and comments frequently that he appreciates having two loving parents who ended the marriage to allow a better chance of remaining friends, and that his situation is far superior than many of his friends who are in homes with continual conflict and stress.  

  • Keb42

    I am a 44 year old woman whose parents went through a brutal separation when I was in high school.  My father had an affair, was financially irresponsible towards his four children and my mother became a neurotic mess.  All of the kids in the family bear the scars of this time period to this day.  However, my parents ended up reconciling (much to the kids’ consternation) and live together to this day.  They have not been happy, but there have been traumatic family events, such as my sister’s diagnosis of being bipolar, which have caused us all to be absolutely thankful that my parents were together.  I feel like I am both the child of divorce and of togetherness. I very much identify with the abhorrence of the idea of getting divorced, but can not say that it will never happen to me. 

  • Joel Iannuzzi

    It is interesting to note that neither my parents nor my wife’s parents were ever divorced.  She is one of four girls and I am one of four boys, we are all in our 40s and 50s.  All eight of us have been married for many years – six of us for more than 20 years and the other two for about 10 years.  From what I can tell, all of the marriages are successful … is there some connection to what we are exposed to?

    • gala

      maybe you guys should write a book, or at least a blog, because that’s what I call success story(ies) and I would say that the  of you are definitely in the position to give advice.

      and I am not being sarcastic, I would absolutely read it.

      Thank you

  • Mfg2529

    Hi,
    I think the discussion of why marriages fail has to begin really with the question of “who are you and what do you need?” as an individual WAY LONG before we even consider a partner. Marriage is not a failed institution..but rather our inability to truly ferret out what we need as individuals before stepping into a relationship. To me the root of all
    relationship failures begins with what we expect or “our lack of knowing
    what we really NEED–versus WANT”. Most marriages begin in a hazy high of WANT and not need because the NEED aspect is not as romantic.
    I think also that we forget that sex is part of the whole and should not be denied. At it’s best, sex is about wanting to give all of ourselves in the most ultimate way…it’s about trusting the other person with that
    surrelnder…at it’s worse, sex is an avoidance of intimacy (ironically).
    While I think that most people feel that they are at the esothetric
    level of being above physical need, the fact is we are still carbon life forms with very basic critical needs that must be satisfied. The key
    to finding the “best potential” relationship (not a successful one) is
    1st taking care of our individual needs and weaknesses (which will
    vary at different stages of our lives) and then making sure that the person we want to be with does the same. There are 3 people it is said in every relationship…each partner alone and the relationship it self…
    too often everyone focuses on the relationship. We all need to
    get back to basics of being.

    Thank you,
    Dao

    I tried to call in but it was busy.

  • Chev

    Finally!  “marriage is compromise”.  Building off of JP’s point below… Too many people are not willing to compromise in today’s society.  If it is all about you then your marriage will fail. 

    • jane

      ENDING A MARRIAGE, AND DOING SO WELL, IS NOT FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

  • KiimS

    Why is marriage the default and expected position?

    Too many people get with someone, have fun, sex is great, and think marriage is the next move.  Big mistake!

    Love and fun lasts 2-3 years.  By then kids are in the picture and the love and fun is over . . . no because of the kids but because love and fun don’t last.

    A compatible arrangement for the long term, is in the vast vast  minority.

    Look at the statistics!

  • Ellen Dibble

    Katherine Hepburn used to say that men and women were not designed to live together.  Rather, they need to give each other ample space.  I think in wider communities, a couple has more diversity in their lives, is less likely to get ingrown.  And I think in other ages, one individual might be far away for long stretches.
        Why do people think that becoming so close is so important to a marriage?  I would think just the opposite.  Two people could become co-dependent, which is supposedly not good.

  • http://www.bringbackdesire.com Andrea

    Passion and affection are key to a long-lasting happy, fulfilling relationship.  Men love (and need) to provide, especially in the bedroom.  Women need emotionally safe sex.  Creating time to let go and deepen one’s intimate relationship with a Beloved Partner is so important.  It’s been key to my successful 2nd marriage of 23 years.  Great article in NYT Erika – Is Sex Passe – fabulous!  Love Susan’s work, too!

  • Frank411

    How interesting that Tom could go an an entire hour without a single male guest, cut off a male called (Eric) and highjack the conversation before Eric could make his comment, and blithely ignore the male experience in divorce.  Dads in this country are forced to pay 3rd party service providers just to see their kids for a couple of hours.  Dads are kept away from their kids by ex wives who ignore visitation orders and the courts won’t enforce visitation orders.  Yet Tom didn’t spend any time looking at half of the experience of divorce.  Once again only womyn count at WBUR.

  • ltnhct

    Susan Gregory Thomas needs to stop blaming her mother for the failure of her marriage. While parents shape what children become as adults, we are all ultimately responsible for our own decisions and actions. That’s a concept, based on part of what she said, that Gregory Thomas doesn’t seem to grasp.

    As to the man who called up and said he felt his in-laws had sabotaged his marriage, Jung and Gregory Thomas are being very naive if they think this doesn’t happen often. I am blessed with wonderful in-laws, but there are people out there who do put their own feelings before that of their children. I’m not saying the guy was right about his in-laws sabotaging the marriage he was trying to save, but things like that happen more than Jung and Gregory Thomas acknowledge.

    • Akramos

      I am 26, in a seven year marriage with four children, two who are twins. Although the male caller’s comments seemed off the wall at first hearing them, I have to say that I have seen some element of the behavior that he mentioned from my own mother, who I believe loves me very much, but it goes back to another topic discussed on the show- in many cases our baby boomer mothers just aren’t in much of a position to give us sound marriage advice and not all of them are discerning enough to realize it.

    • Jill

      She was not blaming her parents.  I think you just want to hate.  Your second paragraph is also a misinterpretation of what was happening.  I think the ladies did well not to speculate but since I’m not an expert on a show, I will speculate.  A lot of women don’t necessarily agree with divorce, but, per the battle of the sexes, they do tend to take a female’s side in arguments.  This way of siding is sometimes destructive as it often takes a “men are dogs” kind of tone.  My mom and friends do it to me and I have to tell them to shut up and listen.  Also the man said that not only the in laws but his own mother was telling his wife to divorce him, which makes you wonder what exactly was wrong with the guy.
        

  • Frank411

    Oh, and Tom, when do you plan to cover the suicide by self-immolation last month in front of the courthouse in Keene, NH, of a MA dad who was prevented from seeing his kids for a decade?  He burned himself to death because the courts kicked it to the pay-per-view visitation service to confirm what his ex and the police had already told the courts:  he was not an abusive father.  Yes, the same pay-per-view visitation service that stood to lose money if they allowed the man to see his kids without paying them.

  • Marvin

    How come the very ones who protest the possibility of gay unions do not see what their divorce says about their beliefs about the sacredness of marriage? 

  • Leni

    I am the mother of 4 – in the 80′s and 90′s my two youngest children (now 33 & 30) were among the few kids in their class whose parents weren’t divorced.  BUT both of my husband and I had already each been married two times before so after numerous tries and now 36 years together we understand how complex marriage really is.  In addition the GenX / Baby Boomer analysis as so far presented on this program seems to leave out couples and children with few advantages; no child support, poverty, racism.  “My generation’ can be a pretty narrow group if you leave poor folks and black folks,  out of the discussion.  How are they part of this cultural scene?The major problem, as I see it, is being fixated on the actual ‘marriage’ itself rather than how to live in family/community.  My take from 69 years old and a child of divorce in the 1950s, is bemused at all this whining as if no one else ever went thought this before.   Of course marriage is hard – life is hard!  Raising children is hard!  

  • Dan

    It is really not as difficult as this panel makes it seem.  It all comes down to 3 Cs:
    Communication
    Compromise
    unConditional love

    • http://www.bringbackdesire.com Andrea

      Hi Dan-  I would add a ‘P’ to your three Cs… Passion! Keeping the fires burning is a good thing! Cheers!  Andrea

    • Skreenwrytr

      “Really not that difficult.”

      LOL… are you married?

    • Double

      Love is conditional. Would you still love your wife if she stabbed you in the eyes, and promised to stab you nightly for the next fifty years? Of course not.

      So one condition of loving someone is the promise that this person will never, under any circumstances, stab you in the eyes.

      The panel makes it seem difficult because it IS difficult.

  • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

    I know the producers of OnPoint are busy but I wrote an email to them this morning about the image above and got no response nor did they change the citation under the image. Here’s the email:

    Dear OnPoint,

    I notice that you’re using an image from flickr here:

    http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/07/13/in-spite-of-everything

    I notice that you have not embedded the image, you cite the photographer but only with text so in all, there is no link back to that flickr account.

    This really isn’t the best way to do it.

    The best way to do it is:

    1. embed the image so that clicking on it will lead back to the original image on flickr.

    2. make the citation a link to the flickr account of the photographer.

    jcoterhals/flickr

    Note the spelling of “flickr” which you’ve misspelled in the citation.

    The decent thing to do is to alert the photographer that you’ve blogged his/her image although this isn’t a rule, it’s a courtesy.

    Thanks,
    Richard

    • Alex Kingsbury

      Thanks for your post, Richard
      We’re always looking for ways to improve the site. We’ll take your captioning suggestion under advisement and see how we can better attribute photos from Flickr.
      Cheers,
      Alex Kingsbury

  • Smiclops

    So, I guess the next segment can be on “Gen Y”, or the “Echo Boomers”. Our questions are: “Where were you when the two towers came down and everything changed?”, “When did you move back home because you lost your job?”, “How long have you been out of work?”, “How much do you make at your job after spending 5 to 6 figures on an apparently useless education?”, “Do you even have a job?” And “How many people do you know were disfigured or killed in two of America’s longest ‘engagments’?” etc….gee divorced parents…yeah, we’ve got that too. :)   Thank god for our video games and cell phones!  

    • Smiclops

      Me again. Forgot to mention on my rant that the writing is fantastic. I may not have alot of sympathy, “life is hard” I believe someone or many someones here have said, but compelling writing is compelling writing. Good stuff!   

  • Michele Owaroff Snow

    As a mediator, work/life, and relationship coach, and divorced person, I found this discussion interesting, but incomplete, good for expressing pain, not much for moving forward, that could expand indefinitely with more voices and perspectives.  Both guests spoke from their own experience and demographic research which will not help today’s young to understand and commit to marriage. Divorce can undercut children’s sense of who they are and cause grievous pain, but it’s possible to move on and not live in dread of their own divorce as Ms. Thomas seems to have done, almost bringing it on by her negative determination, a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it were.

    My ex came out when our son was five, a different situation entirely, though there are many of us who had this experience and this topic would make a good show. 

    My son, 31, is engaged to a wonderful woman and I expect they’ll be together for the duration; he learned both through my example of seeing a psychologist following the divorce, the work his father and I both did with a child psychiatrist to keep the focus on our son’s perspective and experience since the worst had already happened.  In his penultimate relationship which “should” have been going well, my son and the young woman sought help from another psychologist which clarified their own feelings and gave them insight about what they were and were not getting from the relationship. He and I have talked about relationships with my providing very short bits of relationship wisdom.

    Following my retirement two decades after my divorce, I got trained as a mediator, work/life coach (through the Coaches Training Institute, one of the original coaching programs and certainly among the top programs in the world); a few years later, I got trained as a relationship systems coach by the Center for Right Relationship, founded by CTI faculty who brilliantly saw that we live our lives in relationship with family, friends, co-workers, neighbors, etc.  Based on their work and their training models, relationships have been demystified, with all due respect to Ms. deJong!

    Your listeners will find “The Relationship Cure” by Dr. John Gottman helpful; and they can consult relationship coaches at any stage to help them learn and process who they are as individuals in relationship and what behaviors create successful relationships and which can destroy any
    relationship!

    I am beginning to focus on coaching ex-spouses who wish to successfully co-parent; this goes beyond the nuts and bolts of custody arrangements, the pain and fear, blame and judgment of divorce to establish a new arrangement of co-parents.  Participants must be willing and committed to focusing on the present  and future; such coaching is not about fixing
    the parents or the former relationship. 

    I taught high school students for almost 25 years and at the end of that career found that adolescents are hungry for learning about making positive relationships.  Why aren’t we teaching kids that they can choose
    how they want to be in relationship and how to say “no” to negative ones?  Most kids are not sick even if there’s dysfunction in their families and don’t need the medical model of most standard therapy and counseling; emotional, social, and relationship health is as important as
    physical health, or the mechanics of the birds and bees!

    I’d love to connect you with the master teachers and leaders of relationship coaching and perhaps “appear” in a future show with them.

    Thanks for this one and all of the stimulating shows that are unique on the airwaves!

    M. Owaroff Snow, mat, mph
    617-926-2521

  • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston FilipinoBoston

    I am a Generation X and marriage for me is just a piece of paper. Marriage in American is a necessity not a sacrament.

  • Adam

    Wow, this one really struck home with me.  I am a Gen X’r, a child of a horrific divorce and have recently gone through my own.  It was devastating to me as a child and was something that I never ever wanted to go through on my own… but it happened.  I felt as if it was a giant failure on my part but my ex wanted out and despite all my attempts at keeping us together she walked.    

    Many of this segments points and opinions mirrored my own feelings and experiences   I am determined to never, ever go through this hell again but like the guest I am imprinted with the experiences of my parents and will probably never marry again.  Although I want children, a family, a loving home and a wife i am unsure I’ll ever be able to open my heart up again to be able to build and or receive these things.  that more than anything scares me and I’ve found that I am not alone with this assertion and feeling. Many of my peers feel the same.   Maybe marriage is an antiquated institution?  I dont know but I do know that divorce is hell and I am unsure I can marry again knowing that the probability is so high that it will fail.

  • Anon

    This has struck home with me too. Hearing how the author’s father left pulled at my heart. I don’t care about the circumstances—I have never understood the willingness of parents to act like children. I too have a family of wonderful friends. And until I was just about 40, I gave into my fear of being hurt by relationships by dating people with whom I likely would not have one.

  • Jvmarino

    Gen X-er here, married 8 yrs, one child, both our parents divorced. Our secret to a successful marriage: no television in the bedroom.

  • Rcolombert

    I’m 21 yrs-old (Gen Y?), and I’m curious as to why it takes a marriage or two to learn the skills to be able to successfully accomplish the goal? Is it possible to to learn these lessons during a first marriage? 

    • Guest

      Of course its possible – mainly a matter of being willing to compromise, not sweating the small stuff, and communicate.

    • erina

      Yes. Get a copy of Fighting for Your Marriage by Markman, Stanley and Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by J. Gottman. The best two guides to what it takes.

  • Frosty8027

    I am 65. Married for 43 years. Surviving daughter age 43, divorced 3 times, only one child age 3+4mo. My wife and I often disagree and have serious conflict over a wide variety of topics. Not being married to each other has never been part of the equation. “Until death do us part” actually means what it says. Sorry Gen X, Y, Z; a vow is just that, you work at it and if you don’t se eye to eye – you move on – nobody agrees on everything. YOU MOVE ON TOGETHER!!! Love has little to do with sex and much to do with respect, honor, and commitment. I have read all of the responses to this quigmire and hope you will see that this is where the answer lies.

    • Guest

      I generally agree with what you say.  However, if your spouse becomes an intravenous oxycontin addict, would you have the same perspective?  Mental illness that leads to severe abuse is a gamechanger, and unfortunately, it is way more common now than it ever was.

    • Coolbalm

      “Until Death Do Us Part.”  Interpretation.  When the Marriage is Dead, Get Out! 

  • Kimibolya

    I turned on the radio and was immediately teary.  My parents divorced in the late ’70′s when I was in elementary school; I swore the same vow as Susan Gregory Thomas.  I loved the Mark Twain quote esp.  By the grace of God (NOT said lightly) my husband and I have been married 23 years.  There have been times in my marriage that I would never have believed how rich and freeing our marriage is now.  If it never got better from here I would still be grateful, but I have reason to hope it will.

  • Eric Penman

    Its obvious that monogamous marriage is in trouble, men find women
    on the internet with two clicks and which is exactly what they are
    programed to do by nature. Marriage is an unnatural act and a fantasy
    men sense this deep down but can’t fight off the cultural pressures.
    Raising children is not a reason to be married or stay married.
    The absurdity of our times is that gays want in on the sinking
    ship of marriage itself. Polymorphous fluid relationships are probably
    the future and I am not sure marriage itself will survive at all.
    Divorce, marriage and the privatized nuclear family are creations
    of capitalism and do not seem to be needed in the new economy
    so they are headed for the dustbin of history.
     

  • kpieczynski

    With all due respect to the discussants and their personal pain, I would like to point out a subject that was left out of this discussion: Bad marriages and their impact on the children growing up in them. I’m quite sure you can find statistical information on the the number of people who avoid marriage because they want to avoid reliving their childhood.

    I would invite consideration of the situations of women who remain in bad marriages because of social pressures to sacrifice for the sake of the institution. The discussants here talk about divorce as the result of selfish desires for freedom and/or personal growth. What kind of message does that send to a person in an abusive relationship, who may already be suffering low self esteem, and decides not to opt for a way out for fear of social isolation and/or judgement? Divorce should not be framed solely as a means for avoiding difficulties in marriage, but also as a viable option for addressing them.

    • erina

      Bad marriages are bad for kids. Marriages filled with high levels of contempt and conflict put kids at risk for emotional and behavioral problems.  I don’t think anyone of sound mind disagrees with this. But what was left out was the data on why people divorce and the nature of the marriage pre-divorce. We have some good empirical research on this. Check out John Gottman and  Paul Amato’s work for starters.  About 2/3 of the couples divorcing say the reason is that they’ve grown apart. They have low to moderate conflict.  They are marriages that may have become devitalized. The best metaphor for keeping a good marriage alive is to be intentional — put the paddle in the water and paddle. Be aware of the build up of negative interactions, learn how to communicate and handle conflict in a better way. Be intentional about your friendship and sex life. Continue to have fun. Fight the tendancy to get into a rut.
      About 1/3 of the divorces are from bad, bad, bad marriages– high levels of conflict, misery, sometimes beset with substance abuse, or abuse.  The really good news today is that we know a heck of a lot more about how to keep a marriage alive. We know the patterns that erode that 2/3′s group. The best news is that there are skills for keeping those negative interactions/patterns at bay, for protecting the friendship and enhancing it. For starters see Markman, Stanley Fighting for Your Marriage and Gottman’s Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work.
      We used to think raising a good kid just took love. We now know a few basic parenting skills and a bit of knowledge on child development help.  We’re at the same place in terms of understanding marriage.  It takes more than the initial love & passion to keep it going. 

      • Kpieczynski

        Thank you, Erina, for rounding out the discussion. That is the kind f information that is helpful to have when thinking through these issues!

  • Bob D

    Took me a while to formulate what irritated me about the show; I think it was this.  Susan Gregory Thomas was putting some blame onto the previous generation for the situation that she found herself in.  That’s entirely appropriate: us boomers did the same thing, as I imagine they did with our grandparents.  But what the boomers were reacting to was the dishonesty of our parents. 

    Can we agree that infidelity and all the other things people do to betray the trust of their partners have existed since the beginning of time?  The difference is how we deal with those things.  My parents tried to “stay together for the kids”, as though that was a good thing, and as a result my 4 siblings and I watched my mother become an alcoholic and my father leave home with another woman after 5 years of sporadic shouting matches that, once started, would last most of the night.  That wasn’t good for the kids, OK?  Would have been better if they split.  My wife’s parents (my wife of almost 39 years, by the way) had developed a verbal karate that damaged them and their kids deeply, but didn’t show any bruises.    She and her sisters tried to encourage a divorce, but the push-back was that the parents didn’t want to destroy the family.  Too late, OK?

    So what the boomers wanted was honesty.  My wife and I made a commitment to be honest with each other and not to betray each other’s trust.  We’ve managed to still be  each others’ best freind.  Others weren’t so lucky, but in pursuit of an honest relationship, if things weren’t right, they ended it.  While Ms. Thomas may feel members of my generation divorced too quickly or too easily (and by no means am I trying to defend against that argument), the bottom line is that those marriages were probably going to fail one way or another.  Would you rather have had your situation or live with parents that hate each other but “stay together for the kids”?  That is a Hobbesian choice: both choices, unfortunately, suck for the children in the family.

    Sad to say, but kids are always going to be the recipient of collateral damage in any failed relationship, just as Ms. Thomas was.  To expect otherwise is not realistic.  To judge yourself by a standard that you developed as a child, as a result of watching your parents go through a situation about which you never had, nor ever will have, perfect knowledge, is also unrealistic.  And unfair, to you, and, by the way, your kids. 

  • Seventhcircle01

    Thank you for reaffirming my belief that marriage is a pointless institution that statistically will fail, and raising children is even more difficult. Life is short, and I want to enjoy it. Why muddle that with marriage and children?

    Thank you.

    • Bob D

      If you’re referring to my note, I apologize if I mislead you.  I think marriage is a wonderful thing, and although many people inherit some damage from it, the point I was trying to make is that it isn’t terminal: we survive, and live to have otherwise-enjoyable lives.  I’m sure my kids have decided NOT to do things that my wife and I did, regardless of the fact that we consider ourselves to be happy and well adjusted.  It just happens, that’s all, that each generation feels their lives could have been better if not for……whatever; something; who knows what?  It’s just human nature.

      My son was married last weekend, and I wouldn’t have missed that for anything!  My daughter is the joy of my life.  Don’t miss out on that for fear of making a mistake.  Your kids might inherit a little damage, but what the hell, they’ll be alive!  They’ll deal with it, I promise.

    • Coolbalm

      Marriage is only pointless if you buy into unrealistic addage “…til death do we part.”

      Set a realistic goal that can worked at. e.g. 15yrs.  If it works make another agreed upon realistic vow.

  • Anonymous

    Ms. Thomas hasn’t really addressed the fact that maybe they stayed together as long as they did for the sake of the children.

    One thing that was not mentioned was were her parents ultimately happy in their next, or if there were more, final marriages?

    I married a man who was divorced and his commitment to his second marriage has been completely different to that of his first – which took place at 21 – far too young.

  • birdseye

    Did this show really include no male guests and only one (dissed) male caller? I planned to download it, but if the assertion below is true, it sounds like another instance of WBUR’s alarming feminicentrism.

    Why in God’s name would you even consider producing a show about divorce that includes the viewpoints of only one gender?

    Imagine the reaction to a show about marriage, divorce – anything having to do with relationships – in which the guests and the callers, at least the welcome callers, were exclusively male.

    Can you not taste the essentially anti-male flavor of too many OnPoint and Here&Now shows?

    • Coolbalm

      Hey Come on.  That’s not the stations fault!

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  • Slf2002

    This kind of perspective is so infuriating. Humans aren’t and have never been wired singularly for institutionalized, life-long monogamy. We wonder about the high divorce rate and “infidelity” (as defined as sex with non-spouse). Marriage is a fully human constructed institution that is NOT global, doesn’t not work for everyone. In fact, it’s hostory is sketchy at best, horrifying, ignorant, sexist, and cruel at worst. We suffer from divorce and splits it in part because we are told this isnhow we are supposed to be and teh model for success. So we often put off or fail to end a relationship that has run its course, or we end it and suffer in ways that are avoidable because we are tught it’s a failure- success is define only as lasting forevere and ever. There are many cultures that have a variety of pairing and parenting systems where partnerships change overtime and children do not suffer trauma because they have support from an extended family and community and adults do not suffer because they are not under that misapprehension that life-long mongamy is the one right way to live and the only model for success.

    • Dethwench

      Hear hear!  I’m a female feminist, and I completely agree with your perspective. We need more people to break the silence and talk about how unrealistic these expectations are for many people.

    • SLCFlyer

      I’m certainly not on the “anti-marriage” stance, but I want to emphasize your point that it doesn’t work for everyone.  Marriage, especially for those brought up in a home that DIDN’T involve divorce, was an assumed life event.  But I’ve seen so many friends rush into marriage to validate an adult life or because it “seemed like the next step”, only to see it end badly.  Divorce or a break-up isn’t always a failure. Sometimes it just means someone is being honest

  • Cde1958

    I was moved by this excerpt and appreciated the pain although I haven’t experienced it personally.  I suspect that the divorce epidemic continued beyond your suggested timeframe and many of us (now in our late 40s, early 50s) have strived to meet the expectations of our parents, not only in terms of what marriage means but also deal with the fact that they, family and friends had a huge influence on ‘who’ and ‘why’ we married!

    There is a different kind of pain, from a different perspective when you’re the partner and parent trying to do the ‘right’ thing and realising that your twilight years aren’t too far ahead and your beautiful young children are now teenagers developing lives of their own.  To what extent do we need to continue to live our lives according to others expectations, see dreams and belief in what could/should have been in th future disappear into a day-to-day “make believe” for all concerned that convinces everyone that everythings all right – until you eventually find the courage to meet yourself face to face in a mirror and realise that the real you, your wonderful possibilities, your strengths and beauty have been subsumed.  By what? A subliminal need to keep as many people happy as best we can?  Society’s expectations that have been imbued in us from childhood?  Guess this may be something to explore into the future . . .

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  • CRose

    Thank you for doing this story. I’m the child of divorced parents. Couple generations down on one side and with abuses where ever divorces didn’t happen. I just came across some letters that my grandmother saved that she received from my parents back before things went bad (they divorced when I was three). Your guest was right. We do end up starting our lives from where it went wrong and never asked our parents what brought them together in the first place. It was fascinating and tragic to hear them unequivocally saying nice things about each other. Today we still struggle to come together as a family during hard times.
    Right now I’m looking forward to my own marriage. I found myself combing the airwaves for advice – trying to see whether or not we were going to make it, but in then end, I just have to trust that no matter what happens I believe that as long as we can come together in the spirit of caring about one another we can get through things.

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  • Lictorialorr

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