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The U.S. The Arab Spring And Mideast Peace
Activists clash with riot police in Cairo. (AP)

Egyptian anti-government activists clash with riot police in Cairo, Egypt. January 2011 (AP)

For decades, the United States has straddled a need to speak to the Arab world and a deep commitment to Israel. With the Arab Spring, that straddle looks harder.

Last week, President Obama spoke glowingly about a U.S. commitment to rising Arab democracy.  To the voice of the Arab people.  And to Israel.

What happens if that Arab voice calls for a Mideast settlement that Israel does not like the looks of?  The President said ’67 borders.  Israel’s prime minister said forget it.  Palestinians are looking to the UN for recognition.  It’s a tough spot for the USA.

This hour On Point:  The US, Israel, and the era of the Arab Spring.

- Tom Ashbrook

Guests:

Dan Kurtzer, former US ambassador to Israel and Egypt and Professor in Middle Eastern Policy Studies at Princeton’s Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

Michelle Dunne, Senior Associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

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  • Michael

    If Onpoint or it’s guest choose to bring up the Hamas Charter and this is the baseline to judge a group can it also bring up the both the Likud  and Yisrael beiteinu charter? Since Likud clearly states it categorically reject a Palestinians state aka right to exist and also states Jerusalem will forever be undivided which is totally counter to the (sic) Two state solution.  Where as Yisrael (which is the 3rd largest party in israel) calls for the explosion of it’s arab minorities and stripping citizenship and death to arabs.

    http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3499234,00.html

    • Anonymous

      You base your comments on a very selective and misleading reading of the the Likud party platform. While I am not a Likud sympathizer, the platform clearly accepts the right of the Palestinians to live in security under their own government, but rejects the creation of a sovereign Palestinian state. The Likud is obviously concerned that a sovereign state will have the right to establish a military, and military alliances, that the Likud believes will ultimately threaten Israel. 
      They may oppose a Palestinian state, but they are not opposed to the existence of the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza. The platform states:

      “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”

      and:

      “The Likud government will act with vigor to continue Jewish habitation and strengthen Israeli sovereignty in the eastern parts of the city, while emphasizing improvements in the welfare and security of the Arab residents.”

      Compare this to the Hamas Charter, which reads:

      “Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.”

      and

      “Zionisme, Judaism and Jews, defies Islam and the Muslim people.”

      and

      “Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam, and recent and ancient history is the best witness to that effect. The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region.”

      and

      “Within the circle of the conflict with world Zionism, the Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the avant-garde. It joins its efforts to all those who are active on the Palestinian scene, but more steps need to be taken by the Arab and Islamic peoples and Islamic associations throughout the Arab and Islamic world in order to make possible the next round with the the warmongering Jews, the merchants of war.”

      I don’t know how, on the basis of the language of these two documents, you can compare the Likud to Hamas. 

  • Michael

    Maybe also mention how Israel help spawned Hamas to weaken the more Secular PLO (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html)

    Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor’s bungalow hit by a Palestinian
    rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile’s
    trajectory back to an “enormous, stupid mistake” made 30 years ago.

    “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a
    Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades.
    Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen
    watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular
    Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant
    group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.

    Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr.
    Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as
    a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation
    Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel
    cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin,
    even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.

    Of course the Palestinians are no angels but what I find and see is people use and scapgoat hamas to justify the cruel and inhumane actions taken in the West Bank against the Palestinian. Whens the last time onpoint reported acts of terrorism by settlers?

  • Michael

    Also the whole fearing Israel security is a red-herring since it written into U.S. law that the U.S. must fund and provide Israel with a military edge.

    It’s called Qualitative Military Edge.
    http://warincontext.org/2010/07/19/qualitative-military-edge-another-name-for-israeli-brutality-backed-by-the-us/

    The law states:

    [T]he term ‘qualitative military edge’ means the ability
    to counter and defeat any credible conventional military threat from any
    individual state or possible coalition of states or from non-state
    actors, while sustaining minimal damages and casualties,
    through the use of superior military means, possessed in sufficient
    quantity, including weapons, command, control, communication,
    intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities that in
    their technical characteristics are superior in capability to those of
    such other individual or possible coalition of states or non-state
    actors.

    Such much fore deficit harks,

    For Fiscal Year 2010, the Administration requested $2.775
    billion in security assistance funding specifically for Israel, the
    largest such request in U.S. history. Congress fully funded our
    request for FY 2010, and we have requested even more — $3.0 billion —
    for FY 2011. These requests fulfill the Administration’s commitment to
    implementing the 2007 memorandum of understanding with Israel to provide
    $30 billion in security assistance over 10 years.

  • Michael

    It seems finally the U.S. is forced to act on Syria and possibly Bahrain since (http://www.npr.org/2011/05/22/136507091/bahrain-crackdown-puts-pressure-on-u-s-diplomacy)

  • Christian

    Why does On Point continue to allow Michael to post his Israel-bashing rants?  His desire to want to blame Israel for all the problems and turmoil in the Middle East got old a long time ago. 

    • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

      Not to mention maybe onPoint should look into whether the comment system has a timer that will block back to back comments from the same person. I’m getting a bit tired of waking up to find numerous comments from Michael posted as soon as the new show goes live.

      • Michael

         Way to express and show undemocratic behavior

        Don’t like my post don’t read them, quite simple, besides what I posted if factually true. Not my problem if you don’t like it.

        Funny how you call for censorship in regards to Israel while clearly not doing the same for any other group. 

        Can someone say undemocratic thought police.

        • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

          Michael: I didn’t call for censorship, I called for self-restraint on your part. It’s not a matter of free speech, it’s a matter of online civility.

          • Michael

             again,

            Your response or call came when the dissuccsion is on Israel. If you dispute what I said below, dispute it . Interesting enough both guest stated what I been saying for awhile now.

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         I want to know how Michael posts to the particular program hours before.  Where’s the preview page?  His comments aren’t responses to what the guests say, obviously, and he rarely addresses anything once the discussion begins.

        • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

          Greg: WBUR updates the site with the next day’s programs just after midnight EST and some of us subscribe to the site’s RSS feed so if we’re up (or live in another time zone) we can comment pre-show. I don’t find commenting pre-show a problem at all and I do it plenty, I find spraying the thread with multiple comments back to back offensive.

          I know you’re commenting on Michael (us) commenting pre-show but in fact, onPoint closed the threads pre-show before and they must not have liked the results because they re-opened them.

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

             Ah, I’m not on-line in the midst of the night.  It just seems that the comments before the show have little to do with the actual show.  In general, I have no problem with that, but some do seem to dump and run.

        • Michael

          “His comments aren’t responses to what the guests say, obviously, and he rarely addresses anything once the discussion begins. ”

          If you listen to the show today much of what the guest went over is what I have stated and posted. Also a link is often provided so one could do there own research on the guest not to mention what one hears on onpoint by certain guest will be often repeated or have been repeated on other NPR stations.   

          obviously your wrong,

    • Michael

       How dare anyone call Israel out for anything. Oh the shame. So your thinking instead of disputing what I presented and posted which is true You call for censorship.

      If Onpoint is going to block post that others don’t like about Israel can will it also block post against Obama like Christians that others may not like?

      Seems someone is afraid of the truth.

      • Christian

        The truth?  The truth is Michael, Israel is not going back to the 1967 borders and Israel is going to build Israeli settlements in the entire West Bank.  Get used to it.

        • PlowsharesCathy

          Hey, Christian!  I don’t remember Jesus supporting murder, land confiscations, home demolitions, and settlement building.  You must be from the war crimes branch of Christianity.     

  • Yar

     Please take some time to look at the economic roots of the Arab Spring.   
    I just located a new book called: 
    Food, Farming, and Freedom by Rami Zurayk
    I haven’t looked at this book yet, but this may be an author worth having as a guest on your show.

    • Michael

       It’s interesting but,

      food, and farming is not was not the case in libya,Bahrain and Saudi A. Since pretty much all it’s citizens are taken care of in those area’s. 

      The first thing the Saudi and Libyans did was try and give more money to it’s citizens when that didn’t work violent crackdowns occurred next.

    • Ellen Dibble

      http://twitter.com/#!/ramizuraykYou can follow Zurayk on twitter.  He’s teaching at the American University in Beirut.   
      Also note from answers.com “Constantine Zurayk (also Qustantin Zurayq) was born in Damascus. He received a B.A. from the American University of Beirut (AUB) in 1928, an M.A. from the University of Chicago in 1929, and a Ph.D. from Princeton University in 1930. He was an assistant professor of history at AUB (1930 – 1945) and later distinguished professor (1958-1977). He also served as counselor to the Syrian legation and then as minister to the United States (1945 – 1947), AUB vice president (1947 – 1949, 1952 – 1954), rector of the Syrian University in Damascus (1949 – 1952), and AUB acting president (1954 – 1957).
      Zurayk, a prominent Arab intellectual, wrote Maʿna al-Nakba (1948; The meaning of the disaster), the first substantial critique of Arab society in light of the 1948 defeat in Palestine. An advocate of rationalism, scientific and cultural progress, and secular nationalism, he produced many other influential works, including Nahnu wa al-Taʾrikh (1959; Facing history), Fi Maʿrakat al-Hadara (1964; In the battle for civilization), and Nahnu wa al-Mustaqbal (1977; Facing the future), as well as translations and editions of European and Arabic works on cultural history. In 1963 he helped found the Institute for Palestine Studies, and served as its chairman until 1984. Zurayk died in Beirut on 12 August 2000.”   Any relation? 

  • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston Aki Stamatelaky

    The Arab people are the only people who can change their nations to be a true democratic country catered to Muslim belief. It can also eradicate terrorism in their countries. They should unite and prove the world that Arabs wants peace too.

  • Ellen Dibble

     I can remember when the issue of settlements began.  I think it was under Carter.  The idea was to establish sound ground rules, sort of build mutual trust, and build on the negotiations as time went by, as I recall.  Then there was the oil embargo, and the Arab world was flexing its muscle.  And Israeli settlements in the West Bank began to  undo such understandings about nurturing peace and trust.  The grounding for peace became “facts on the ground,” and intifadas of various sorts sprang up.  For me, in grappling with this I see some parallel with illegal immigrants here in the US.  They have somewhat different rights, whether to health care, college education, non-deportation if they happen to be called to court…
        So if settlers establish in the West Bank, it seems they are taking on the rules of the country where they are now the guests, if you see what I mean.  It doesn’t work (we know) to have two families, two houses away from one another, with two sets of legal framework, two sets of rules and regulations.  I mean, with religious “laws,” we all live with the fact of others having other “commandments,” as well as family to family, but this can be worked into the constitution.  But there has to be a common set of rules, not “privilege” (“private law,” as someone noted here), if people are to understand their world to be just and offering equal dignity.  I don’t see this in the president’s plan, and I did listen to the AIPAC speech a few times.  Because of plans for equal security for a Palestinian state.  If the Palestinians are considered all enemies — and perhaps they are, because Netanyahu did say very clearly to Obama on Friday in public that the USA must choose between Israel and Palestine.  MUST CHOOSE.   So who defends a nonmilitary palestine? 

    • Maureen

       If Israel can have Muslims why can’t the Muslims Palestinians have jews?

      • Ellen Dibble

        If you define Israel as a Jewish state, can the Palestinians and Christians have the same set of laws while living there?  Apparently there is a problem.  But how not?  Democracy is democracy, and the judicial system is supposed to guarantee equal rights.  
            If Jews choose to live in what are now occupied territories, I believe we have encouraged those territories to have their own laws and to try to control their citizens (of whatever faith).  Those laws, it would seem, have to apply to Israeli settlers who live there as well as to Christians who live there, etc.      The idea of the honeycomb state is hard to envision.  I mean, we have Alaska but there is a direct sea route thereto in case Canada went Hitleresque. 

        • Michael

           Great post Ellen.

        • Anonymous

          Ellen,
          Israel defines itself as a democracy which is also the homeland of the Jewish people. Jews, Christians, Muslims and people of other faiths live in Israel under the same set of laws. They all have the right to vote, to petition the government, to serve in the government, etc. Just as in our democracy, the principle of “equal protection under the law” is an ideal to which the society strives. It is not always met, and it is constantly in need of vigilance and correction. No one can “guarantee” equal rights; equal rights must be continuously defended. There is a vibrant civil rights movement in Israel that advocates on behalf of groups who find that their rights are not always respected–whether they be Muslims, Christians, women, homosexuals, etc., etc.

          It is important to be clear about the distinction between Christians and Muslims who are citizens of Israel, and those who are not. The iinhabitants of the West bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens. As for Jews living in the West Bank, it would seem that if they chose not to leave, it would be up to the Palestinians to decide what to do with them. In other Arab/Muslim countries, Jewish citizens were expelled and are not allowed to be citizens. Based on that, it is reasonable to wonder whether Jews will be able to live under a Palestinian government as Arabs are able to live under the Israeli government.

  • JM

     I guess I’ll chime in here. 

    I have fairly moderate political views. I also have a good friend who was blown up on a bus by Hamas, leaving behind 7 kids. 

    I long for a peaceful solution to this problem.

    I want to reference something Thomas Friedman said a while ago. Its something like the following.

    15% of Israelis would give up anything under any circumstances. 25%  won’t consider giving up anything due to religious or political ideology.

    For peace to happen the middle 60% have to believe that they won’t get their throats cut if they make a deal.

    The last few years have not made it easy for these people to believe.
    Leaving Gaza and having it turned into a Hamas military installation did not help. The 10,000 rockets from Gaza did not help. Iran does not help. 
    Regime change in Egypt with an uncertain future does not help. Hezbullah rearming vigorously does not help. Abbas embracing Hamas does not help. 

    It is hard for anyone to look calmly at the situation and feel like giving up territory and compromising security is a good idea today.

    As someone who favors territorial compromise, this is an enormously painful reality.

  • Cory

    1.  “Arab spring” is only a guess at this point.  Only through the lense of history will we know whether or not it actually is.

    2.  Israel ain’t goin’ anywhere.  Best for everyone in the region to finally recognize their right to exist and learn to coexist.

    3. I’d love to see the U.S. seperate itself from the fortunes and affairs of Israel, just as much as I’d like to see seperation from Saudi Arabia.  Neither are likely.  

  • lost-in-cornfields

    How do settlements and territorial
    disputes relate to water-resources, and the sharing related to a
    resolution?

     

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Israel would never have occupied Gaza and the West Bank if the surrounding Arab nations hadn’t started a war.

    • Harry

      Land acquired through war has been legitimized throughout history. I am uneasy about a two-state solution. Part of me feels that Palestine should exist based on borders created after the last war. Palestinians can either then live in Israel or move to Palestine, kind of like what happened when Pakistan was created. This separation based on ethnicity and religion seems less virtuous than living together as brothers, but nationalism seems to thrive on the concept, even vis a vis a religion that allows the genuine respect of a person that doesn’t share your belief for at least the reason that they are human and possess the human potential until their death. Another issue I fear is the socio-economic state that may arise – something along the lines of Germany with the Berlin Wall. The other part of me feels that the problem is based on religions, not regions, and should be discussed in that light. The innate dislike between those two religions needs softening through discussion and friendly debate instead of thinking that dividing up land will fix this ancient animosity. Being so ancient, the animosity itself needs to be examined because it still seems based in religious texts and not unbiased historical records. They hate because their religion facilitates it or at least the misinterpretation of the religion does. Even the religions control the attitudes about peoples’ rights and the concept of home, property and land. Religion should be discussed, not just land regions.

      • Anonymous

        I agree with a lot of what you say, except your implication that there is mutual hatred between the religions of Judaism and Islam. There is nothing in Judaism that promotes or encourages hatred of Islam, and nothing that teaches that Islam is a lesser religion than Judaism. There is a far greater theological gap between Judaism and Christianity than between Judaism and Islam. Furthermore, although there are statements in the Quran which seem to paint Jews unfavorably, I don’t think the vast majority of Muslims feel it is their religious duty to hate Jews. We should not let the actions and beliefs of a minority of extremists on either side to dictate our view of an entire religious community.

  • Anonymous

    Why would we support the Palestinians when they are led by Hamas which just happens to be a recognized terrorist organization and supports terrorist bombers that terrorize Israel.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Sarcasam on:  The Palestinians don’t need our support, since they get so much from their friends in the rest of the Arab world.   Sarcasm off

  • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston Aki Stamatelaky

    I was only 12 yrs old when I first heard this problem. I’m now 43 and still there is no sign of peace. I give up!!!! 

  • Anonymous

    Tom,
     
    Do you think that the US supports democracy in a country or a region that the majority of the people support terrorist organizations like Hamas? 
     

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Arab democracies, if they are genuine democracies, will be no existential threat to Israel.  Democracies don’t tend to go to war with each other.

    • Mill

      Let’s not forget about equal rights to all non-Muslim citizens, rights of gays and women, and some semblance of free speech and immunity from getting killed for speaking one’s mind. The track record of Muslim-majority countries in this regard so far is pretty despicable.

  • Witterquick

    The only way to resolve this issue is for the US President to keep this topic in the public conversation and, if needed, influence the conversation by varying the amount military aid provided to this part of the world. 
    Also, if you supress a people long enough and continue to steal their land, destroy their homes, you should not be surprised to see them fight back.  I would fight back if my neighbor kept moving his fence further into my yard.
     

    • Anonymous

      If I knew that your neighbor only moved his fence into your yard after you and your friends tried to burn down his house, I would be a little less sympathetic.

  • HJM

    Israel is interested in and its priority is to establish a “greater Israel” rather than fostering peace. Those of us United States citizens who pay the taxes, to use Bill Clinton’s phrase, “play be the rules,” fight the wars and care more about the United States of America than Israel are tired of our federal officials  giving unstinting support to Israel and the pro-Israeli lobby. The state of Israel lost the moral high ground at Deir Yassin, in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, at Jenin and when they fired on the U.S.S. Liberty killing and wounding American sailors on the high seas. Now, more than ever because of the Arab Spring we need to acknowledge all this.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       I play by the rules and care about the United States, and I support Israel.

      • noslack2327

        Greg Camp… “support” Israel and making it a greater priority than the United States are two different matters, aren’t they? Which is your priority? For the persons who care more about Israel’s interests than the interests of the United States, they can move there and probably should. And, yes, they can move there, unlike the Palestinians to whom the Israelis refuse the Right of Return.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Islamic court doesn’t automatically mean something that violates rights.  Islam can be perverted as much as Christianity can, but the idea of individual liberties can be found in both traditions.

    • Mill

      In theory or in practice? The proof of the pudding lies in eating it, and the pudding produced by Islamic courts so far, when it comes to rights of non-Muslims, will make you sick if you eat it.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    If the Palestinians want to declare a state unilaterally, perhaps the Israelis ought to draw the line wherever the Israelis want it and tell the Palestinians good riddance.

  • Alan

    “Spring” brings blossoms. It also brings floods, biting and infecting insects, allergies, mudslides. Spring, Arab or otherwise, is a mixed blessing. To what extent are the blossoming “democracies’ of the middle east willing to recognize that Israel should continue to exist in a secure environment? I have my doubts that a “freed” Arab public opinion will support a continuation of the Jewish state in any form. On what basis then should Israel be willing to compromise with such entities?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       It’s just that people living in democracies tend to focus more on consumer goods, taxes, scandals, and other internal interests.

  • Pacaruso

    Israel want to wait for more “democratization”. 

    “Democratization”  = 
    When enough Palestinian ministers are compromised, coerced, and controlled by Israel.

  • Dan

    How can the Powers that are Today,are Fearful of change Tomorrow. The True Peacemakers are the Ones who reach out First. We must have courage and the willingness to face Change……Dare to meet your Fears,and have Faith in the Future….dm

  • Ellen Dibble

     What is the attitude of the PEOPLE of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt to (a) Palestinians and (b) Israelis?
        Arab Spring must mean that those attitudes are now VERY BIG.  Where are the PR people for both Palestinians and Israelis?  Send them a block of  Madison Avenue.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       The Palestinians have been used as pawns by the autocrats around the region to fight a proxy war against Israel.  One hopeful aspect of the Arab Spring is that the people of the Arab nations may not be interested in playing games any more.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    Caller,

    Arabs have lived in the region for a long time, but so have Jews.  This situation won’t be solved on the basis of resentments.  There is an Israeli state, and that’s not going to change.  There needs to be a Palestinian state, and never the twain should meet.  But the borders are reasonably clear.

  • AvgJosef

    The entire West Bank sits on top of an aquifer that’s pretty massive relative to the overall size of Israel/Palestine. 

    If Israel leaves the West Bank, it’ll be much harder for them to steal Palestinian water.  So of course they want to maintain their positions.  These “land swaps” will give Israel prime real estate and in return the Palestinians will get barren desert.

    Also, these “land swaps” will be another way to ethnically cleans the Arabs out of Israel.  Israel is desperate to get rid of its Arab citizens.

    So, these “land swaps” will just reward Israel for their illegal settlement activity and allow it to continue its ethnic cleansing.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Explain how Israel can continue to exist as a Jewish state–it’s reason for being–if the Palestinians continue to live within the borders?

      • Mike

        Greg, you support the population transfer based on ethnicity?  That’s quite scary.

        Do you also want the USA to be a white state?  Should we allow Mexico to annex the South West to help us reduce the Hispanic population that’s distorting our national character?

        And what would you have us do with the black population in America?

        Please review the definition of democracy, then get back to us.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           I’m aware of the definition.  Israel was created with a specific purpose–to be a Jewish state.  The United States came into being for different reasons.  That being said, I do think that we should welcome into this country only those who share our core values.

          • AvgJosef

            Greg,

            So it’s OK as long as we make it clear when we establish a state that it’s for the benefit of ONE specific group?  That doesn’t really fly.

            I’m a Palestinian-American.  My great grandfathers going back to the beginning of time were born in what is now Gaza.  Now I have cousins who are Israeli Muslims as well as cousins who are married to Jews.  Can you tell me they don’t share your “core values”?

            What should be done with these people?

            We need to be very careful when casting judgment on others based on any set of cultural, ethnic, or religious “values”.  That’s a slippery slope, and NO group is beyond reproach.

          • Harry

            Well said. But I would like to add that this desire is a direct result of religious beliefs or the misinterpretation thereof. The chosen people vs the gentiles who are not capable of salvation due to not being borne of a Jewish mother. God is on trial here as the Greatest Racist. And I find it difficult that, other than the religious texts, to what can we look to clear the charge? Debate who God is. Islam accepts that the Children of Israel (children of Isaac) was onced favored, but that it was because of continued idolatry in the face of this favor, the favor was lost and transferred to the “Children of Ishmael” (Arabs). And when I say “favor” I mean the possession of a messenger or prophet. I am not too educated about the Jewish side, but there is the Islamic belief that, for the second time in religious human history, a messenger was sent to the world and not just a people and all humanity, Arabs and non-Arabs alike, can follow that last messenger to a monotheistic deity and that the previous holy books of the previous Jewish people were altered, requiring one final testament to testify the truth of earlier scriptures and negate the falsehoods added by unpious people back then. Even now though, Islam has now become divided into nationalies and cultures despite they share the same book. Differences are supported by misinterpretations and opininons of the book. Recall that there used to be one Muslim World in the beginning, the Caliphate, but it turned into its last empire, the Ottomans, which broke up after the first world war.

            So what I am saying here is that religion, not land, should be discussed first.

          • Anonymous

            Harry,
            Jews do not believe in a “salvation” period, let alone one that gentiles can’t enjoy. Jews do not really have a concept of “salvation” because they do not have a belief in “original sin.”
            The situation is purely political, i.e. it’s a property dispute. It’s not about different concepts of who is going to heaven and who isn’t. As far as I can tell, Jews believe that everyone gets into heaven!

          • Mill

            “So it’s OK as long as we make it clear when we establish a state that
            it’s for the benefit of ONE specific group?  That doesn’t really fly.”

            You have your work cut out for you – there are about 50 Muslim-majority countries in the world today which are based on benefiting ONE specific group – Muslims. Let’s have one standard for all countries, instead of your two – a separate one for Muslim-majority countries and another for the rest.

        • Anonymous

          AvgJosef,

          How many Jews are left in Saudi Arabia? How many in Iraq? How many in Lebanon? How many in Jordan? How many in Iraq? How many in Lbya? Tunisia? Egypt? Syria? Pakistan? Afghanistan? 
          While it’s absurd to suggest that Israel wants to, or intends to, kick the Muslims out of Israel (if that had been their wish, it would have been accomplished long ago), why do you raise no objection to those Arab countries who have ACTUALLY ethnically cleansed their lands of Jews? 

          • AvgJosef

            Dave,

            Who said I don’t object to that?  You’re totally wrong.

            I strongly believe that all Jews and Arabs should be allowed to go back to their native homelands.  Jews from Iran, Morocco, Yemen, etc., should return there if they so choose.

            And Palestinians from Beersheba, Baysan, and Acre should be also allowed to go back to their ancestral homelands.

  • Carrie

    I am still pondering this country’s support of the state of Israel when there are such things in the history as the USS Liberty attack, back in  1967.  Prime Minister Netanyahu repeatedly says “No!” to negotiations, and “No!” to considering his country’s stance in internationally recognized OCCUPIED LAND.  Israel needs to actually make an effort at resolving this.  The United States needs to consider actually NOT supporting Israel in defiance of our own best interests.

  • Betsey

    I have just one question. During 1930s Jews who attempted to emigrate were denied entrance to the US and other countries because of anti-antisemitism. After the murder of 6 million Jews, survivors were denied emigration to other nations states. Where were these people to have gone? No one wanted them! For 60 years the state of Israel has been under attack–this Jewish homeland. We need to consider how much latent anti-antisemitism underlies all Western demands for Israel to give up land. 

    • Pacaruso

      Betsey,  it was anti-semitism that blocked immigration, it was the zionist leaders that did not want jewish emigrants and later refugees to enter the US.  The plan was always to move them to Israel.

      • Pacaruso

         Correction,  it was NOT antisemitism that blocked immigration, it was the zionist leaders …

    • PlowsharesCathy

      No, Betsey.  The US and other nations were denying immigration because of the great depression.  The unemployment rate in the US was 25%.  Democracy in the US and all the world was at risk.  There was no unemplooyment compensation, welfare, or social security.   In desperate times, many people want to replace the system of political organization that they have with one that seems to look better.  Therefore, there was much fear that The US could become fascist or communist.  Franklin Roosevelt and John Maynard Keynes are credited with saving democracy.   Actually read a history book instead of just listening to propaganda and you will be able to put things in perspective. 

      • Anonymous

        There was no depression in the years of WWII and immediately following, when Jews were escaping the Nazi holocaust.

  • Anonymous

    As an American, I can NOT support a democracy in any land that the majority of the people are uneducated and the majority openly support terrorists and the overthrow and destruction of their neighboring countries .  Democracies based on hate an fear are not beneficial to their people and the world.

  • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

    We feel sympathy for Israel because we see a social order that we understand.  We feel it because many Israelis emmigrated from the United States.  We have strong cultural ties.  The relationship may be difficult, but the Israelis are family.

    • Pacaruso

       ”"”WE”"”" ??????

      You say :”We feel sympathy for Israel because we see a social order that we understand. “  

      However,  I will follow the moderation rules of this site and refrain from insulting you in a rude and direct manner.

      • Anonymous

        What he means is that Israeli civil society is set up along rules and principles which very closely resemble those of the US. You would not feel much of a culture shock if you found yourself in Israel as compared to any of the other Middle Eastern states.

        It’s a shame that some people’s first instinct is to insult rather than seek understanding.

    • PlowsharesCathy

      The Israelis try to justify their murder, land confiscations, and settlement building because they claim they have to accomodate refugees from hostile nations.  Now you are acknowledging that these “refugees” are actually from Brooklyn!  Oops!  I think you dropped your fig leaf.  

      • Anonymous

        Cathy,

        Israel has absorbed millions of immigrants in its short history, including over 1 million Jews who escaped Arab/Muslim countries, over 1 million who fled Russia, and some 20 thousand from Ethiopia. Each of these far outnumber immigrants from Brooklyn.

        Jews from Brooklyn are generally not thought of as escaping a hostile nation. But if you represent American sentiment going forward, maybe one day that designation will change?

        • AvgJosef

           So refugees from Russia, Ethiopia, Poland, German, AND Jews from Brooklyn all have the right to live on that land. 

          But Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) who have lived there for thousands of years don’t have the same rights.

          Israel is a racist state, but I’m not distraught over it.  I’m actually really heartened by the comments I’ve been reading here and other sites for the past week or so.  Americans are starting to wake up to it and becoming more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, which is the cause of freedom and human rights.

          It’s very encouraging :)

          Now we need to pick up the phones and call our elected officials to demand that they, too, give a damn about Palestinian rights.  Their job is to listen to US, their constituents, not some foreign lobby that supports oppression of non-Jews. 

          • Anonymous

            Dude, a large percentage–perhaps even a majority–of Jews in America and Israel are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. There’s no issue about the rights of the Palestinians to a homeland. The issue is caused by those who deny the Jews’ right to a homeland. There are at least 20 Muslim countries in the world where no Jew is permitted to live–by law!! Jews have been massacred, raped, expelled and dispossessed in nearly every country in which they have lived since most were expelled from their own country about 2500 years ago. Now they have returned to rebuild the one country that any Jew in the world can call “home,” and yet you call that “racist.”

            So, while I think there is merit to the Palestinians’ position, yours is not worthy of being taken seriously. You should consider how the use of violent and hateful rhetoric harms the prospects for a Palestinian state rather than helps it. For a good indication of that, look at how warmly PM Netanyahu was received by our Congress! They are obviously not buying what you’re selling.

      • Anonymous

        Cathy,

        Israel has absorbed millions of immigrants in its short history, including over 1 million Jews who escaped Arab/Muslim countries, over 1 million who fled Russia, and some 20 thousand from Ethiopia. Each of these far outnumber immigrants from Brooklyn.

        Jews from Brooklyn are generally not thought of as escaping a hostile nation. But if you represent American sentiment going forward, maybe one day that designation will change?

      • Anonymous

        Cathy,

        Israel has absorbed millions of immigrants in its short history, including over 1 million Jews who escaped Arab/Muslim countries, over 1 million who fled Russia, and some 20 thousand from Ethiopia. Each of these far outnumber immigrants from Brooklyn.

        Jews from Brooklyn are generally not thought of as escaping a hostile nation. But if you represent American sentiment going forward, maybe one day that designation will change?

  • wwlaager

    Israel will do what is in its own interest.

    Ask the dead of the USN Liberty.

    Walla Walla

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Several have mentioned the U.S.S. Liberty today, but that was an accident.  The matter was settled a long time ago.

      • wwlaager

        I remember. Ask the living what they witnessed. They will tell you, “Murder.”

        • Anonymous

          In 1967, the US was not an ally of Israel. It declared itself neutral. So, there are only two rational explanations for the Liberty incident. 1) Israel knew the ship was American but felt that the US was collecting intelligence that might be harmful to its (Israel’s) security and war effort, or 2) Israel made a mistake in the fog of war, or was grossly negligent in not identifying the vessel as American. 

          If #2 is the correct explanation, then Israel owed the US restitution. My research indicates that restitution was made to the families of the crew and to the US for the damaged ship, and the matter was considered closed. 

          If the first explanation was the truth, then either Israel’s assumption was right, or it was wrong. If it was wrong, and the US was not in some way engaged in activities that were harmful to Israel, then again, Israel owes restitution, which it has paid. If Israel was right, and the US was in some way endangering the Israeli war effort, then the action was justified and what followed was a mutually agreed upon resolution of the incident. Although I find this the least likely of the possibilities, if true it would certainly seem to mitigate against blaming Israel.

          So, basically, either Israel was wrong and has paid for its error; or Israel was right, and we have no grounds to blame it. Anything else would seem to have the whiff of anti-semitic conspiracy theory. Friendly fire incidents happen; we recently killed Canadian military personnel. Should they cut ties with the US and forever bear a grudge?

        • Anonymous

          In 1967, the US was not an ally of Israel. It declared itself neutral. So, there are only two rational explanations for the Liberty incident. 1) Israel knew the ship was American but felt that the US was collecting intelligence that might be harmful to its (Israel’s) security and war effort, or 2) Israel made a mistake in the fog of war, or was grossly negligent in not identifying the vessel as American. 

          If #2 is the correct explanation, then Israel owed the US restitution. My research indicates that restitution was made to the families of the crew and to the US for the damaged ship, and the matter was considered closed. 

          If the first explanation was the truth, then either Israel’s assumption was right, or it was wrong. If it was wrong, and the US was not in some way engaged in activities that were harmful to Israel, then again, Israel owes restitution, which it has paid. If Israel was right, and the US was in some way endangering the Israeli war effort, then the action was justified and what followed was a mutually agreed upon resolution of the incident. Although I find this the least likely of the possibilities, if true it would certainly seem to mitigate against blaming Israel.

          So, basically, either Israel was wrong and has paid for its error; or Israel was right, and we have no grounds to blame it. Anything else would seem to have the whiff of anti-semitic conspiracy theory. Friendly fire incidents happen; we recently killed Canadian military personnel. Should they cut ties with the US and forever bear a grudge?

  • Ellen Dibble

     I wonder if 9/11 would have even happened if the Arab Street didn’t think the USA was propping up Arab dictators in order to defend Israel.  (To Summer’s question, what do we get out of this friendship?  And the answer since Reagan, they are secret security collaborators).
    I’m thinking Stuxnet?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

      Yes, Stuxnet.  That was a test to see what could be done to Iran and looks to have been a success.  We need friends who can do things like that.

  • Ellen Dibble

     Doomsday scenario, Egypt annexes Gaza and attacks Israel, Israel throws Very Heavy Weaponry at Egypt, and all hell breaks loose?  What exactly?

  • PlowsharesCathy

    Aki Stamatelaky, What do you give up on?  There is no peace because Israel has not completed the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  Don’t forget, every home, every structure in Israel is built on someone else’s land.  It all belonged to the Palestinians in 1900.  It is no longer there’s because of the mass murders and ethnic cleansing that took place in 1947 and 1948.  The Palestinian survivors fled to the West Bank and Gaza, but the Israelis wer not through with them; the Israelis started the 1967 war.   They have been displacing the Palestinians in the occupied territories since 1967.  There has never before in history been such a consistant nation of war criminals.  Watch out Aki Stamatelaky, American Jewish support for murders, for land and water thieves, and for settlers is beginning to make American Jews very unpopular.  They are starting to be seen as the opponents to free speech and democracy that they actually are.   I’m looking forward to September.    

    • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston Aki Stamatelaky

      There are alot of Palestinians and Jews in the Philippines. They don’t kill each other over there because they left the middle east to have a better future in Manila. if the Palestinians and Jews march together in the west bank or Gaza and demand PEACE it will happen. The Power of the People can change anything in this world.

  • AvgJosef

     USS LIBERTY WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Your evidence?

      • Pacaruso

         Hey Camp,  you are joking right??   There is eyewitness testimony all over the internet…. just not on CNN and the Jerusalem Post.

      • Michael

        http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/

        Details of the attack were hushed up in both countries. Israel claimed
        that her forces mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship, and our
        government quietly accepted that excuse despite evidence to the
        contrary. No ship in our history has ever received such damage and
        casualties by accident. Then our government downplayed the intensity of
        the surveillance and the severity of the attack, and imposed a news
        blackout on the crew to keep the story under control. The official
        version is that the Liberty was reconnoitered only three times and only from a great distance.

         http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/statement_of_purpose.html

  • Pacaruso

    Excellent question from the caller Summer.  “What does the average US citizen get from the US support of Israel??”    And kudos to Tom for grilling the totally lame response from Dan Kurtzer,  who brought up 9-11.   Security benefits from Israel…are you kidding Kurtzer???? 

    Aside from the obvious burdens on the US and muslim populations,  there are over 7000 US troops dead and over 50,000 maimed for life.  Another one million will be claiming disability for life. 

  • Alan

    There is a strong, much too strong, faction in Israel that believes in a “greater Israel” that is based on biblical prophesy and has no place in the modern world. On the other hand, there have been powerful factions in the United States that believed we could contain China by supporting a puppet South Vietnam, and please tell me what moral high ground we supported in the invasion of Iraq. The point is that the policy of nations is a conglomerate of rational thought, historical perspectives (right or wrong) and emotional reactions. Israel is neither immune to such factors nor unique in responding to them.

  • RL

    On what grounds, as Americans, do we object to democracy?
    First of all, nobody is discussing the spectrum of democracy and what Aristotle feared in “people-ruled” democracy- namely “mob rule” by the uneducated and inept.  Madison and others were aware of the problems with majority, mob, and religious rule, which is why our Constitution provided for a representative democracy and no establishment of religion.
    So called majority rule, or mob rule as the Greeks would have called it, in Islamic countries may very well lead to the institution of Sharia law or other religious rule (which is misogynistic and oppressive).  As Americans, we can, and should, oppose this based on our Constitution and secular laws.

    • Ellen Dibble

       I think religion began when the rulers declared themselves as representatives of the gods on earth, or actually manifesting in themselves divinity.  Such rulers coopted religion in order to rule by fear.  They could declare laws to come straight to them by inspiration.  Religion still holds some of this idea of divine commandment becoming set-in-stone permanent grounds of existing government.  Government by fear is SO different from government by consensus (democracy).  So it seems to me oxymoronic to say a Jewish state can be a democracy.  Even with a supreme court that had extreme power to balance out the rights of the Jewish Israelis, it would seem to be an exercise in self-redefinition to pursue true equality.
          I am not a lawyer.  I am certainly not an Israeli or Palestinian lawyer.  But I’d like a team of lawyers as well as diplomats to sort out how those two nations can have not only defined borders but also defined democratic legitimacy.  I have no clue.  It is probably overly simplistic to say look at South Africa; whenever two peoples are able to say it’s “us” and “them,” and the “us” has a greater legitimacy, it creates huge tensions.  If it were that simple, I’m sure someone would have applied that template and asked Israel, what do you make of that?  Or ask the United Nations and the United Kingdom, whoever created Israel in the first place.  If Israel was brought into being surrounded by ill will, their approach for rectifying that ill will has SO gone astray.  But then, I don’t live there.  I only end up paying for a lot of the fallout.

    • PlowsharesCathy

      RL, Can it be worse than the theocracy in Israel? 

  • Pancake

    I think of Michael’s dawn posts as illegal settlements we don’t dare touch without undermining our own liberties.

  • Donnapink101

    i am donna pinto,from what I can read. It has been sad news and scam to everyone about spell casters or so. But to me they are so real cause one worked for me not quite two weeks. I traveled down to where his shrine his and we both did the ritual and sacrifice. I don’t know about you but spell is real;love marriage,finance voodoo, get your ex back voodoo,love voodoo,lottery voodoo,weight loss voodoo,money voodoo, business voodoo,it’s all he does. I used my money to purchase everything he used he never collected a dime from. He told me I can repay him anytime with anything from my heart. Now I don’t know how to do that. If you can help or you need his help write him on nativedoctor101@live.com. Thank you.

  • Rievler

    I applaud Micheal’s posts and see nothing untrue in them. I do find posts with links and calls for a poster’s banishment annoying though.
    -Israel started the 67 war. Granted, the Arab powers would probably have started it days or weeks later, but that doesn’t change the fact the Israel did preemptively start it.
    -Hamas was helped in its founding by Israel to create a religious faction to divide support for the secular PLO. The blowback since is not dissimilar to the US arming of Afghan conservative militants to fight Soviet Union (that worked, no?)
    -Several of Israel’s former PMs were terrrorists in the 40s-50s. Begin, Shamir and some might nominate Sharon for that designation.
    -If Israel doesn’t finally trade land for peace with the Palestinians and soon, it will be forced into an Apartheid system to deal with the demographic trends.
    -All Palestinians are not Muslim. A signifiicant minority is Christian.
    -Arguments to deny the collective “rights” of the Palestinians by denying their history are truly dangerous. If they have no history, soon they won’t be a people and calls for their forced expulsion or extermination can’t be far away.

    I say dump the “two state solution”, withdraw our military and monetary support in 3 years if the two sides don’t jointly resolve their dispute. History, religious extremism and nationalist chauvinism have too long delayed resolution of this problem.

    • Gary

      Israel did not “start” the 67 war.  When multiple countries are aligning themselves to attack you, you don’t wait.   Striking first, and “starting” a fight are not the same.  Israel could not afford to wait for for all of its neighbors to simultaneously attack it, and survive.  

      • Rievler

        You’re right! The aggressor is the victim. Funny how poor little, “defenseless” Israel has such a strong military and hasn’t lost much ground in any of its many wars whether it strikes first or not.
        I suppose the US didn’t “start” the second Gulf war either. Wouldn’t want “the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.” Saddam Hussein was clearly winding up to attack us…

  • wendy in VT

    I am very proud of President Obama for having the courage to address the issues realistically.  The US President should be acting in US interests, not those of any other country.  Israel’s behavior is that of an arrogant schoolyard bully who acts with impunity, knowing there will be no consequences because he will be defended and enabled by his overindulgent mother (the US Congress).  Of COURSE the democracy movement holds risks and involves uncertainties, but the hostility toward Israel in the region is the result of Israel’s own arrogance and intransigence.  Similarly, the hostility toward us on the part of many Arabs in the region is the unsurprising outcome of our unquestionning support for Israel.  Perhaps the intelligence “benefits” the Ambassador claims we gain from this “friendship” would be less essential if Israel’s right wing resigned itself to live peaceably with their neighbors.  There may well come a time when we are simply not able to defend Israel, so their long-term interest is to make genuine compromises.  I’ve watched this situation for more than 40 years, and really hate the fact that although many objective, intelligent Americans recognize that being cowed by Israeli demands is not in our interest, very few will say so publicly because of the “trump card” played habitually – “Oh, you’re criticizing Israel because you’re anti-Semitic.”  We cannot make progress in executing realistic policy unless we stand up to that false argument.

    • Gary

      Another False Argument:  You’re criticizing illegal immigration because you’re a racist. 

    • Alan

      If the hostility toward Israel by Arab nations could be attributed, as you do, solely to Israeli arrogance and intransigence, then there would have been no war against Israel when it was founded in 1948.  And we would have not seen refugees created by the urgings of Arab nations that Palestinians leave their homes in the new state while they, the Arab nations, mopped up the new state militarily. And we would have seen better treatment of these refugees in their Arab camps before 1967. Your forty year review of events ignores much history prior to 1971.

      • Michael

        This belief that the arabs left there homes is from times Immemorial, which was debunked both within israel and outside of it by Historians, the claim is what Alan presented along with Jordan being Palestine, and a transfer of populations have already occurred. Much of what she wrote is still often repeated even know it’s been proven to be clear zionist properganda.
        Palestine, and a transfer of populations have already occurred. Much of what she wrote is still often repeated even know it’s been proven to be clear zionist properganda.

        Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath
        Mrs. Peters’s Palestine
        http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/

        Reviewing the book for the November 28, 1985 issue of The New York Times, Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath described the book as a “sheer forgery,” stating that “[i]n Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon.” [9] In 1986 Yehoshua Porath repeated his views in The New York Review of Books, and published a negative review that cites many inacuracies .[10

      • PlowsharesCathy

        Those lies aren’t credible any more.  Read ”The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine,” by Ilan Pappe.  

  • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston Aki Stamatelaky

    This conflict will never end. If a Palestinian will die today or tomorrow his/her relatives will continue to fight the Israeli. It is waste of time and energy. We can debate and argue 24/7 but it will never change anything in the middle east. It might end in 12/21/12 or who knows when. I stop watching the news about the Palestinians and Israelis. Just like the Filipino Moros (Moors) and the Philippine Government has been fighting in Mindanao since the late 60′s and until to this day they are still fighting. There is no end in sight. We can ask the best minds in the world to stop the conflicts but they will still fail. The only people who can stop this never ending conflict are the Palestinian and Israeli people.

  • http://twitter.com/FilipinoBoston Aki Stamatelaky

    Stop mentioning about the Past. Forgive and Forget. if you forgive but don’t forget the hatred amongst muslims and jews will continue. How can you forgive if you don’t forget? grudges will continue forever and ever. Remember not only the Palestinians are suffering but Christians in Lebanon are still suffering. The conflict is not all about land but it is about Religion. Hatred with other religion is the main problem in this world.

  • Dee

     
    Tom, It seems many of your callers need to realize –especially Barry –before there was Israel there was Palestine  and the Palestinian peo-ple..Thus the land belongs to the Palestinian people not the so called “Jewish people”. Indeed, early records dating back to Rome times show
    it recognized the Kingdom of Palestine and the Palestinian people.
     
    And early British records confirm this –especially the during the fall
    of the Ottomen Empire at the dawn of the 20th century when  this
    parcel of land came to be known as The British Mandate.
     
    Indeed, I should add here before 1948 many Jews didn’t own a patch
    of land in Palestine and now the Zionist land thieves have pushed their way over 80% of Palestine-when the UN partiton in 1948 allotted them 55% percentage…

    So I hope you can begin to see through this myth making by the Zionist zealots that they have a right to control the roost in Palestine and Jews have indeed a right to return there. What a farce this has beome as
    some Jewish writers question whether there was ever an exodus…..

    But perhaps the most atrocious jewish myth making I have seen besides
    including trying to change the facts on the ground in the Palestinian terrirories by building illegal jewish settlements is the Israeli claim the Jews made the desert bloom…

    Please read the article below and note the quanities of fruit and veg-
    atation the British catalog coming from Palestinian fields and farms
    during those early times –the Zionist claim there were no Palestinian
    people or indeed a political entity called the Palestinian people…….
    http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/palestinians-made-the-desert-bloom.html.

    I believe it speaks directly to the Zionist lies and bullying in Palestine
    today…

    Lastly, I have come to the conclusion that if the Zionist leadership 
    under Netanyahu doesn’t uproot its own settler population in the
    Palestinian territories and drive them back to the 1967 Green Line–
    we as Americans and as people of conscience around the world have
    a moral obligation to uproot them ourselves on behalf of the Palestin-
    ian people…

    No people can build a future and a homeland for themselves on the backs of another peoples’ homeland. That’s just plain immoral and
    down right illegal and it should never be acceptable to any people.

    Dee

    • Anonymous

      No people can build a future and a homeland for themselves on the backs
      of another peoples’ homeland. That’s just plain immoral and down right illegal and it should never be acceptable to any people

      So you mean like the US was built.

      • Michael

         That’s right folks two wrongs make a right.

        Though many believe and see what happen to the indians were immoral and wrong. Not to mention we now have International law and a Geneva Convention. So here seem to think because America did something wrong in the past it’s a excuse for Israel to do so now.

        American had slavery back than as well, I’m sure it wouldn’t fly now if a country engaging in cruel and inhumane treatment and slavery to say

        “So you mean like the US was built as a defense. esp one who was in high education.

        • Michael

          Some here seem to think because America did something wrong in the past it’s a excuse for Israel to do so now.

          American
          had slavery back than as well, I’m sure it wouldn’t fly now if a
          country engaging in cruel and inhumane treatment and slavery to say

          “So you mean like the US was built as a defense. esp one who was in high education.

  • JM

    Dee — There was a Jewish state in that land 2000 years ago. The Romans conquered it. Go walk through the Arch of Titus in Rome. This is not something made up by history.

    So if you are going to go back that far, your agument fails.

    If you want to argue that there was a notion of Palestinian people before the 20th century, as opposed to  people living in this disputed territory, I don’t know that there was. 

    But let us come forward to 2011. We need to find a way for both of these sets of people to live on this land. And to do that we need each side to accept the existence of the other and guarantee its security. 

    I am reposting my earlier post.

    If we want peace, we need to do something about the issue I raised below.

    I guess I’ll chime in here. 

    I have fairly moderate political views. I also have a good friend who was blown up on a bus by Hamas, leaving behind 7 kids. 

    I long for a peaceful solution to this problem.

    I want to reference something Thomas Friedman said a while ago. Its something like the following.

    15% of Israelis would give up anything under any circumstances. 25%  won’t consider giving up anything due to religious or political ideology.

    For peace to happen the middle 60% have to believe that they won’t get their throats cut if they make a deal.

    The last few years have not made it easy for these people to believe.
    Leaving Gaza and having it turned into a Hamas military installation did not help. The 10,000 rockets from Gaza did not help. Iran does not help. 
    Regime change in Egypt with an uncertain future does not help. Hezbullah rearming vigorously does not help. Abbas embracing Hamas does not help. 

    It is hard for anyone to look calmly at the situation and feel like giving up territory and compromising security is a good idea today.

    As someone who favors territorial compromise, this is an enormously painful reality.

    • Michael

      “There was a Jewish state in that land 2000 years ago”

      There were two Israelite states, after of course they ethinically cleansed the city states there.  Shlomo Sand has came out with a book called “INVENTION OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE ” which states that the ancient Israelite have more of a link to mordern day palistians then Israeli from Jews from Europe

      “Countering official Zionist historiography, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a “people” in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage. They certainly do not have a political claim over the territory that today constitutes Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”

      “The last few years have not made it easy for these people to believe.Leaving Gaza and having it turned into a Hamas military installation did not help. The 10,000 rockets from Gaza did not help”

      Again before those rockets there were 7k plus bombs dropped on gaza, not to mention Assassination

      “Abbas embracing Hamas does not help. ” both within and outside of Israel the line was that if fatah or hamas didn’t come together there could be no peace process. Since you be only dealing with half of the population. Fatah and hamas comes together another new excuse comes up.

      • JM

        Dude there were not 7k bombs dropped on gaza before the rockets. Just not true.

        The fact that Hamas wants to destroy Israel is not an excuse. Gee whiz.

  • Dee

     Addendum, Tom I believe Salman Abbu Sitta is waiting for us to liberate
    his homeland (at least in the territories ) from those Zionist thieves and
    murderers…http://www.alternatefocus.org/SittaShow.html

    Just listen to this poor man and how the Zionist land thieves robbed
    him of his home and dignity….It shame me and I know many others
    to think the US is propping up this cruel and lawlessness Zionist entity
    in Palestine today….It must end! Dee 

  • MarkKnoeller

    Did not the Zionist movement start some time in the late 1800′s? As I understand it they considered many places around (including South America…) the world to settle and create their nation. Once they choose Jerusalem they cohabited peacefully for some time. Once they started taking Palestinian land by force they lost the moral high ground.

  • Abuya

    Many of the comments on the program seem to indicate a total misunderstanding of what has happened in the Arab world in the last 5 months. The whole point of the demonstrations, in Tunis, Egypt, and everywhere else, is to stop blaming Israel for all of their problems, to stop blaming the US for all their problems, to stop blaming the Jews for all their problems, and to start dealing with their own real problems – food, education, corruption, dictators, oppressive security apparatus, lack of freedom of speech and freedom of demonstrations, oppression and racism against minorities and other groups such as Christians, Jews, women, gay, etc. This should be clear to any observer of the events, and it is definitely understood very well by the Arabs in the region. This confirms exactly what Israel has been saying for a long time.

    This is indeed a big change, a very positive change from the Israeli and American perspective, even if the change could take a long time and might add many new short-term dangers. Obama should have supported the Arabs on this, telling the Palestinians to follow their brothers elsewhere in the Arab world, and start dealing with their own real problems – get rid of their corrupt and oppressive leaders in the PLO and Hamas, stop sending suicide bombers and terrorists, take care of providing food, education, infrastructure, build the economy, and accept the Jewish state and negotiate for a real lasting peace.

    [ Note that the incident at the Syrian border represents exactly the opposite of the trend in the rest of the Arab world - this orchestrated event was organized by Syria and Hizballa in an attempt to counteract the anti-Assad demonstrations in Syria and to revert the people's anger back to the usual anti-Israel channel. The Syrian leader said so explicitly ahead of time, threatening that if the demonstrations against his regime will not stop, he will "heat up" the border with Israel and the Israel-Lebanon border. In addition the incident was aimed at allowing Syrian intelligence agents and Hizballa agents to infiltrate into Israel. ]

    It should be clear that in the Arab war against the Jews, peace will come the day there are ten thousand Arabs demonstrating in Ramalla against their failed leaders, demonstrating for food, demonstrating against the corruption and oppression by their leaders, shouting “Peace is more important than land” (as Israelis have been shouting in Tel-Aviv for years), and not one day earlier. 

    • Alan

      Nicely said, Abuya, and greatly to be hoped for.

  • Dan

    UN Resolution 242, approved by the UN Security Council in 1967, calls for Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders.  Israel agreed to comply with UN Resolution 242 as part of the Oslo Agreement (1993), at the Camp David Accords (1978) and the Framework for Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty (1978).  While Israel agreed to comply with UN Res. 242 at those summit meetings, they have never implemented it.  The Israeli Knesset has never been able to ratify the agreement because of extreme right wing instransigence.  The UN has never passed sanctions against Israel for failure to comply with Resolution 242 because the United States would always veto any such action in the Security Council.  The Arab Peace Proposal (2002) also include UN Res. 242 as a key component.

    Learn all about it:
     the Unnted Nations website on The Question of Palestine: http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/home.htm

    Recommended books to enlighted understanding:
    Peace, Not Appartheid by Jimmy Carter
    Yes We Can Have Peace in the Holy Land by Jimmy Carter
    Jerusalem 1913, The Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict by Amy Dockser Marcus

    Jerusalem 1913 provides the history of peaceful coexistance of Israelis and Arabs in Palestine under the Otoman Empire, and the Zionist movement for an Israeli Holy Land.  The historical antecedants of the current situation.

    • Rievler

       Let me add another to your book list.
      Righteous Victims by Benny Morris-9780679744757This historian explodes many of the myths surrounding Zionism with quotes from the actors themselves from archival material opened up in the 80-90s.

  • Dee

    “The last few years have not made it easy for these people to believe.Leaving Gaza and having it turned into a Hamas military installation did not help. The 10,000 rockets from Gaza did not help. Iran does not help. Regime change in Egypt with an uncertain future does not help. Hezbullah rearming vigorously does not help. Abbas embracing Hamas does not help. ” JM

    JM

    I am afraid this all seems like Zionist BS to me–which I have heard from two other shameful Zionist apologists David Brooks and Tom Friedman . (That is not to say I don’t see a value in some things they have to say.)

    Yet the important thing to keep up front today –such excuses are no longer acceptable to justifying the Palestinian people their freedom and sovereign rights in their homeland… 

    Nevertheless,  I have nothing against the Israeli people per se but I am very disappointed by their silence on the illegal settlements …

    When are going to realize the settlers will eventually invalidate their
    right to stay in the Middle East by delegitimizing their right to remain
    in the Middle East too?  
     
    After all, there is no need for a Jewish state today in this Human Rights world and there is growing sense that Israel belongs to a
    bygone era and should be closed down…

    Still, I believe if the Israeli people wish to save what they received
    from the UN in 1947—they should rise up like the Egyptian people
    and demand Netanyahu act to evacuate the settlements or force
    him and his cabinet out like Mubarak’s. Dee 
     

  • JM

     Dee — When you characterize all evidence that large segments of the the Arab world has little interest in making peace with Israel, and that they respond to positive Israeli gestures — LIKE GIVING BACK GAZA — with more aggression, as “Zionist BS”  …

    you fail to acknowledge the enormous role the Arab world has played in creating this mess

    and 

    for people who  understand the truth — that most Israelis truly want peace, have always wanted peace and have shown it by giving back a ton of territory to date,  you make us think we have noone to talk to.

    Your attitudes are a big part of the problem. You can keep spreading hatred and lies, or you can wake up and take a more balanced view that might one day lead to a solution for both peoples.

    • Michael

       ” LIKE GIVING BACK GAZA ”

      Gaza was protected by half the israeli army, those settlers destoryed the settlements before they left in gaza and the IDF bombed out what was remaining. What you omit is that those same settlers were relocated to Illegal settlements in the west bank.

      And if you compare to what they gave back in gaza to what Israel took in the moderate fatah control west bank it’s hardly a gesture of good will. 

      Norm Chomsky explains this quite well.

      • JM

        Umm they gave it back. That is the main fact here.

        For someone like you, nothing Israel ever does will ever me met with anything but scorn.

         

        • Michael

           oh? claiming that Israel gave back gaza was a goodwill gesture will bring such esp when omitting that instead of relocating settlers in southern Israel they moved them to the west bank will increasing settlements there.

          • CDD

            They gave it back. Its a fact. Tough for you to swallow when the facts don’t match your angry rhetoric, I know…

          • AvgJosef

            Mr. Sane,

            How is that “angry rhetoric”?  He was stating facts, so stop lying.

            The settlers were moved from illegal settlements in Gaza to illegal settlements in the West Bank.

            What they left behind was damage and destruction.  These were actual occurrences.

            Plus, it’s pretty difficult to starve the population in an area when your friends live in there too.  So getting the Jews out of Gaza really made it a whole lot easier for Israel to collectively punish the Palestinians there. 

            The goal was to have a Zero % chance of white phosphorus falling on a Zionist.

          • Anonymous

            we left there what we were asked to leave, ie turnkey green houses looted by exuberant followers of religion of peace in just few short weeks following destruction of synagogues ( no surprise here). Apparently the mob was disappointed by the fact that we took our dead with us, such that they couldn’t do much damage to the cemeteries. There were numerous recorded calls by palestenians workers to their former Jewish employers -kibbutzniks -BEGGING them to return. These are the facts.

          • CDD

            They gave it back. Its a fact. Tough for you to swallow when the facts don’t match your angry rhetoric, I know…

      • onpointfan

        Noam Chomsky?

        • Michael

          The withdrawal of a few thousand illegal settlers from Gaza was publicly announced as a West Bank expansion plan. It has now been formalized by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, with the support of Washington, as a program of annexation of valuable occupied lands and major resources (particularly water) and cantonization of the remaining territories, virtually separated from one another and from whatever pitiful piece of Jerusalem will be granted to Palestinians. All are to be imprisoned, since Israel is to take over the Jordan valley. Gaza, too, remains imprisoned and Israel carries out attacks there at will.

        • Michael
        • Anonymous

          michael just can’t get enough of his true idols: norm finkelstein and Noam Chomsky. he seem to be so in love with both that he had to invent the third one norm chmosky. both men diatribes about Israel are well known, well researched and no one seems to take them seriously for all the right reasons.

          • Michael

            That’s your best? lol

            once again the israel firsters can’t beat facts or reality. show me a debate where either man loss?Lets see that well reseached data, I bet it be easy to put holes it it.

             I’ll wait..

          • Anonymous

            you can laugh yourself to death by looking up recent debate between finkelstein and none other than Benny Morris where the former is just getting owned by the later. It’s youtubable so I trust you with finding this rather quickly, my dear.

          • Anonymous

            by the way, you just called me Israel firster which may or may not be true. What’s first for you I wonder?

          • U_mtate

            Yet you didn’t post the video.

            Again you prove my point

  • Dee

    Here is that URL to the falsehood the Jews made the desert bloom…

    Note the British inventories from Palestinian land and farms in Palestine.

    http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/03/palestinians-made-the-desert-bloom.html

  • Jon

    You are all dreaming that the Israeli gevernment or people , will give up, the land they occupied  in 1967, It will never happen in my life time , or any ones life’s time, only solution is one state, with equality to all, or all out war,

    Give it up, it’s Hopless

     

  • JM

     Hey Jon — they already gave back some of it — Gaza! Could there be a more eloquent testimony that Israel will trade land for peace? If that is not enough, how about the 1976 camp david accords?

    Sheesh. How about some facts.

  • Abdo

    As an Arab, I must express my voice here on this issue to the average American (like the person who called earlier to give the money to the Palastinians to buy land somewhere else). Can he take $ 10,000 and leaves his home to live somewhere in that region?

    The fact that the US has supported blindly the Israelies for years and supported the dictators of that region and paid them off on bahalf of the Israelies is a good reason for both the US and Isrealeis to be concerns.
    Any prvious agreements where not people agreements. They were bought with corrupt money by dictators.

    So the presnt revolutions may put things in the right path and everyone will be accountables. I think this is the time for the US to put its money where its mouth. Meaning, they advocate freedome and democraocy and this is the time to be with them or against them.

  • Dee

    JM,

    I try not to discount the wishes of the Israeli people as I feel I under-
    stand how their government is acting against to perpetuate the cycle
    of violence as a cover for its illegal expansion of settlements in the
    Palestinian territories. 
     
    In addition, I believe I am keenly aware of Arab inaction as I have watched Israeli officials turn down many if not all their peace pro-
    posals or others as being “dangerous ” for Israel ‘s security ….
     
    Yet what could be more dangerous to Israel’s security than keeping another population at odds with its state?
     
    This is the vicious cycle I see Israelis trapped in daily by their gov-
    ernment and they must say “enough” or face losing their support to
    stay in the Middle East too….Dee
     
    P.S. Here is Jimmy Carter talking about how the US perpetuate Israel’s
    bad behavior also….So we are all victims in a broad sense by our gov-ernment’s actions and this is what I feel we all must all break away
    from today…

    http://www.democracynow.org/2006/11/30/palestine_peace_not_apartheid_jimmy_carter

    • JM

       Hey I agree with what you said that the current situation is lousy for Israel’s security as well.

      I do not agree  current or past Israeli governments have perpetuated the cycle of violence — I see most of what they have done as responses to Arab aggression. Obviously we do not agree on this. 

      • PlowsharesCathy

        Israel is occupying Palestine, confiscating Paalestinian land, and building settlements on the stolen land.  What part of that is “Palestinian aggression”?    Before the internet, Americans believed Israeli lies, but look around you; it is a whole new world now. 

        • Take a Balanced View

          Well for a sample…

          In 1948 Arab countries attacked Israel first.

          In 1967 Israel attacked first but clearly as a defensive response.

          In 1973 Egypt and Syria attacked first.

          In 1982 Katyushas were raining on Northern Israel before Israel invaded Lebanon.

          In 2000, after Barak offered Arafat 95% of the West Bank the second intifada started, leaving hundreds of Israelis dead and thousands wounded.

          In 2005 Israel gave back Gaza and got ten thousand rockets. (10,000!)

          And on we go. 

  • Dee

    “  Hey Jon — they already gave back some of it — Gaza! Could there be a more eloquent testimony that Israel will trade land for peace? If that is not enough, how about the 1976 camp david accords? ”

    Hey, JM if you believe the Gaza prison camp Israel created is an elo-quent example of Israel’s generosity–you  aren’t worth writing to….

    Did you know the water system was blown out and contaminated
    when the Israeli settlers left? Some pioneers they were……

    Disgusted, Dee

    • JM

      Dee — There is this huge gap in our perceptions that I don’t know how to bridge. This makes me sad, since, on the off-chance we are both caring good hearted people, and can’t figure out how to communicate on the isssue, how can progress be made?

      My perspective is that the goal was not to make Gaza a prison camp, but that the current situation is because of the Hamas takeover of Gaza and the resulting terror enclave.

      And again,
      I don’t think the water system was blown out and contamination.

      Obviously you would say something different.

      I’ll leave you with this. There are enormous numbers of Israelis — the vast majority — who would be delighted to live in Peace with a peaceful Palestinian state on a large fraction (at least 80%+) of the current “West Bank.” Most can’t get themselves to believe that such a thing is possible in the near term, due to the list of troubling Security developments I listed earlier. And this has been their mental and emotional dynamic for a long time. It is such a shame.

      Maybe instead of dismissing it as Zionist BS if you would take 10 minutes and try to imagine how they feel, it would give you a new perspective.

      On the flip side, if you’d like to leave me with one thing you think I am missing — I will ponder it seriously for 10 minutes as well.

      And let’s hope we find a way to a more peaceful world soon. 

      • http://richardsnotes.org Richard

        One of the best comments ever JM. Bravo, well said.

      • PlowsharesCathy

        How those “peaceful” Israelis feel is like this:  Imagine that you had spent the last 63 in a small town terrorizing your neighbors, stealing whatever you wanted and killing whoever raised even feeble resistance.  Now you are saying, “I’ll give you a little bit back; can’t we be friends.”  Imagine any common criminal saying “can’t we just be friends.”  I think every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel should be tried for war crimes.   And they should all be deported.  There is not one square inch of Palestine that belongs to them.  They should also be forced to pay reparations to the Palestinians for the 63 years of suffering they caused them.   They received and still receive reparations from the Germans, but they don’t want to pay any to the Palestinians.  They should all be ashamed of the doubletalking, morally deficient psychopaths that they have shown themselves to be.          

        • onpointfan

          I have no horse in this race, and admittedly have limited knowledge of what has transpired over the past sixty-three years in Palestine. From what I’ve read, it seems like the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and that the situation should be rectified without delay. Furthermore, as a US citizen, I agree with the caller who questioned what it is that we are really getting from our alliance with Israel. 

          That said, I fail to see how any rational person could think, deep down, that an argument that every “man, woman and child” is a war criminal could ever lead to real progress. This is exactly the kind of demonization that lends credence to the fear as to what would happen to the jews in Israel if their lone remaining ally abandoned them. Characterizing Israeli children as “war criminals” is not only nonsensical; it is counterproductive, serving only to harden the position of the right wing hawks in both the US and in Israel and making President Obama’s job of obtaining a negotiated settlement more difficult. 

          Compelling as the comparison between German crimes and reparations and Israeli crimes and proposed reparations is, I would like to offer the observation that Germans continue to pay reparations because of the guilt associated with the systematic, mechanized extermination of 6,000,000 human beings, and not because they feel bad that they’re occupying the land formerly held by European Jews. Just a thought…

  • onni

    It bears repeating that Arabs remember that the US has long supported the dictators in th region for interests of its own. Even just prior to its fall there were editorials wondering if we ought not to continue to support Mubarak’s brutal regime.

    Many Iraqis did not welcome the US invasion with rose petals or open arms because they remembered American support for Saddam when it suited us  – as well as our (Oliver North’s) selling TOW missiles to Iran which rained down on Iraqis during the Iran/Iraq War. Then there were the 12 years of US backed sanctions which killed so many innocent
    Iraqis.

    It would be very naive of Americans to think that the Arab world will now embrace us with open arms after we supported regimes that oppressed them for so long.

  • Michael

     If anyone is interested,

    http://www.moveoveraipac.org/endorsers/

    ORGANIZATIONAL ENDORSEMENTS & PARTNERS

    14 Friends of Palestine

    Adalah-NY: The Coalition for Justice in the Middle East

    Al- Nakba Awareness Project

    Alliance for Global Justice

    Americans & Palestinians for Peace (AMPAL)

    American Jews for a Just Peace

    American Jews for a Just Peace – Boston

    American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) – DC

    American Muslims for Palestine

    American Muslim Voice Foundation

    Americans United for Palestinian Human Rights

    Arab American Forum

    Arab Americans of Central Ohio

    Arizona Alliance for Peace and Justice (AAPJ)

    Artists Against Apartheid

    BAKA: Students United for Middle Eastern Justice at Rutgers University

    Birthright Unplugged

    Jewish Voice for Peace

    Jewish Voice for Peace, Bay Area

    Jewish Voice for Peace, Chicago

    Jewish Voice for Peace, Portland, OR

    Jewish Voice for Peace, DC Metro Chapter

    • Anonymous

      Holy !@#$!! There are more Jewish groups listed than Muslim ones!

      OMG!: Now the Jews control even the Pro-Palestine lobby!!!

  • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

    Devon had it right, about 30 min into the program. The Isreali state has all the characteristics of a colonial project. A technologically superior, numerically inferior, light skinned people emmigrate to a foreign land, use their superior military technology and political organization to drive out and oppress the aboriginal population, and sustain themselves afterwards by relying on a larger mother country for financial, political, and military support. The same pattern played out over and over again throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, in India, in Africa, in the entire Western hemisphere, in Australia, in the pacific islands, etc etc. We need to recognize in the United States that our support for Isreal is enabling a neocolonialist project and perpetuating racial injustice.

    And why are we doing this? Because our politicians are scared to death of a loud, aggressive, and very well funded set of pro-isreal lobbies, who do not think twice about subordinating the interests of the United States to that of Isreal. It’s easy to see what Isreal gets out of this deal: they get to perpetuate a system of racial injustice on the backs of the american tax payer. But what does the United States get? A worthless, unruly ally and the emnity of millions upon millions of people who might otherwrise be our friends.

    I look forward to the day when the United States withdraws its unconditional support for Isreal. Then the Isrealis will have no other choice but to either include the Palestinians within their state on equal terms, or else to let them go their seperate way and form a state of their own. If diplomatic isolation doesn’t work, an economic boycott could bring additional pressure on Isreal. Just as the Afrikaaners were forced to dismantle their system of racial injustice when they faced economic collapse as a result of a world wide embargo, so too would Isreal. We in the United States need to recognize that we alone make this system of racial injustice possible. In that sense, we are just as much responsible for it as the Isrealis. We have the power to radically change the domestic political position within Isreal, which would kick out worthless hardliners like Netanyahu and bring men of peace to power. All we lack is the will to do it.

    • Anonymous

      There are a lot of funny moments in this, but what really makes me laugh is your second paragraph–you know, the part about “loud, aggressive, well funded, pro-Isreal [sic] lobbies.” It’s funny to watch you string together all those compound adjectival phrases so that you can avoid saying “Jews”! Why don’t you say what you really mean?:

      “And why are we doing this? Because our politicians are scared to death
      of a loud, aggressive, and very well funded set of Jews,
      who do not think twice about subordinating the interests of the United
      States to that of Isreal.”

      • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

        What interests me about the pro isreal lobby is their political activity, not their ethnicity or cultural background. I said exactly what I meant. If you want to get hung up on race, that’s your bag.

        • Anonymous

          If all that interests you is their political activity, there would be nothing different about what they do than any other lobbying group, i.e. they advocate for their positions. Are you suggesting that they have no right to advocate on behalf of their interests? I’m not sure at all what you are complaining about or accusing them of.

          Just curious: What other lobbying groups would you describe as “loud, aggressive, and well-funded”?

          • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

            They can advocate, and I can point out that they’re advocating. I think that what they’re doing is wrong, not illegal. Look David I’m getting tired of repeating myself for your benefit. It’s all there in the initial post. If you’re curious about anything else… just reread what I already said. I promise you, it’s all there.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EGAEWDBEXGRHV5D4OHAW6V4DMI Sunhillow

    As a Palestinian I have to say I’m convinced that what’s going on in Israel and the Palestinaian territories is being allowed to happen by a bunch of cynical people in the US Congress at the request of Israelis who really couldn’t care less about security or love of the land.On the one hand there are those Israelis, along with their supporters in the Democratic party, who can’t help fighting Nazi ghosts in their heads. On the other hand there are many immigrants from Russia, for example, who have an incredible hatred for Muslims. So they use us Palestinians as target practice and punching bags to vent all their anger and frustrations.Then there are those in the Republican party for whom the whole thing is a joke in the same way they treat Medicare and education reform as a joke just so they can give people they hate grief for the sake of giving them grief!How can any of this be taken seriously by the US media is beyond me.I truly believe Netanayahu and his ilk in the Knesset and the US Congress are having the time of their lives living out their anti-Nazi, and anti-”Islamofascist” fantasies while laughing really hard at the rest of the world behind closed doors.How long can Americans go along with this nonsense?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EGAEWDBEXGRHV5D4OHAW6V4DMI Sunhillow

    We Palestinians couldn’t care less about what Israel and the US does next. We’re going to ask for membership in the UN as a sovereign nation this coming September and have all the votes we need to do it.
    Does Israel and its supporters in Congress really think that 50, 100 years from now things will stay the same as it is today? Are these folks that insane?
    And today another American evangelist, whom I refer as “the other Zionists”, is prediciting the end of the world. These are the same folks who have done their utmost to convince Americans that we Palestinians are the last obstacle left for Jesus Christ’s Second Coming. Basically saying our genocide needs to happen so the red carpet can be set out for JC.
    As if we’re trash to be swept aside.
    I mean, really, what world do Americans live in? Not to say we don’t have our shortcomings in the Middle East but at least our tax money is not spent on developing the most effective and destructive weapons and then try them out on the US, or put them to good use to occupy part of it.
    Because, you see, this is the core of the problem here: The US can be as silly as it wants and say the darndest things but when the government uses its money to perpetuate the longest military occupation in modern history just so those bastards in Congress and the White House can get votes on election day, and when those evangelists are 24/7 on the freaking TV trying to get you to donate as much money as you can short of starving yourself and use this money to get more morons in Congress, then the US is not as cute and funny as it think it is.
    It amazes me to see how many Americans have bought into seeing us Palestinians as such risk, such danger that they have no choice, no choice whatsoever, but to support Israel in its occupation and systematic destruction of our society. An agricultural based society whose main production are olives and figs.
    Oh, but look what Hamas said. Oh, I can’t believe Arafat didn’t sign a peace agreement that would have given Israel complete control of all Palestine borders, all of its airspace, all of its sea coast, and over 80% of its water resources. What more do the Palestinians want? Those ungrateful dogs.
    And the US mass media has certainly done a job in educating Americans on our situation, haven’t they? Get 60 Minutes to visit us once every 50 years. Thank you so freaking much.
    But, like it or not, we’re going to get our full membership at the UN in September and for once in the longest time we Palestinians will feel wholesome and groovy.
    Israel and the US Congress can go fly a kite for all we care

    • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

      well for what it’s worth, I think our behavior in the region has been truly shameful. I believe there is a growing recognition in the United States that we can’t deny the palestinian people their basic human rights just because Isreal makes a fuss. But it’s happening far too slowly. I hope the UN approves palestinian statehood.

    • Anonymous

      Jews are only one-third of one percent of the population of the US. Of that number, a good portion are under the voting age. So I don’t understand the argument that Congress supports Israel to get votes. It makes far more sense to me that we support Israel because Israel is a modern, democratic, technologically and scientifically advanced society with which we share a common set of core values.

      I’m very sad that so many Americans have a bad impression of Palestinians, but I couldn’t say I’m amazed. There have been a lot of terrible, ugly things done by Palestinians in the name of Palestinians (bombing planes, murdering Olympic athletes, throwing people off of buildings, knifing infants, to name a few). I wish people could hear and read articles and comments by the many good and reasonable Palestinians who are equally horrified by those acts and who reject them uncategorically, the way the majority of Jewish people uncategorically denounced murderers like Baruch Goldstein, and morons like Meir Kahane.

  • david

    The only solution to this problem according to what has been implied by past and present post is to wipe Israel off the map. This has been the objective for centuries, history proves this fact. The not chosen son of Abraham has always held a grudge. A shame also is that Israel is no longer the chosen, that ended in 70 A.D. God has broken down the barrier between the two, neither Jew nor Gentile, all people are one in the sight of God. The problem, neither side will accept it. Many think that he who holds Jerusalem will be proven the chosen. They will be proven wrong! 

  • now’s the time.

    The answer to “what do we get out of this “friendship”? For defending, subsidising, and providing weapons to a country who has committed atrocities against the Palestinians….we got 9-11.  Wake up America.

    • Peace for All

      9-11 was about way more than Israel.

      And the notion of “atrocities” is ridiculous. Israel frequently has to conduct defensive military actions against the Palestinians; their record of of minimizing collateral damage is pretty reasonable when one looks at it dispassionately.

       

    • Anonymous

      You’re right! I guess we should have been supporting and subsidising Al Qaeida!! (slaps forehead)

      Unbelievable.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Johnny-Samara/615444181 Johnny Samara

    It is remarkable to me that the typical human reaction to something not working is to try it again the same way instead of trying something different. I also find people’s ability to revise history fairly remarkable as well. Mr. Obama’s recent speech demonstrates that he lacks the ability to try something new and intends to continue trying to use the same formulas and approaches that have failed for the last 60 odd years.The reality is that the Jews that created the state of Israel are foreign invaders. They may retain their tribal memory of being from the Levant but the long centuries that they spent living elsewhere after they left Judea after the Romans defeated their kingdom changed them and the Levant itself changed its character in those long centuries that they were absent. The Jews are not the first tribe to do this.  The Franks (a tribe from what is now Germany) invaded Roman Gaul in the waning years of the Roman empire of the West. The Angles and Saxons from Germany and the Vikings from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark all invaded what is now England and Scotland much to the dismay of the native Celts and Picts. These are but a couple of examples from Europe but this same story can be told again and again not only elsewhere in Europe but also in  the rest of the world.All of these invasions were fundamentally different from the invasion that resulted in Israel. As an example, when the Vikings invaded Great Britain, they did not try to arrogate some part of the territory to be a new Denmark, Sweden, or Norway. They simply set up shop and went about their business of farming, trading, and manufacture just as they had been doing in their previously native lands. Over time, they intermarried with the native population and now all you can see of their invasion is some town names that indicate that they were established by the invaders and a gene pool that in the general population that is different from that of a pure bred Celt or Pict (genetic analysis has determined this). Parallel examples to the Jewish invasion of Palestine exist. The Crusades to “rescue” the Holy Land resulted in a couple of European kingdoms being established in the Levant that pesisted after the Crusaders left. These kingdoms were not a bunch of Europeans just setting up shop in the Levant; they were Europeans attempting to graft a bit of Europe into the Levant. They didn’t last. They were either militarily defeated by later Saracen warlords or they simply fell apart as a result of being fundamentally different than the socio-economic matrix in which they existed.Now we come to Israel. Israel is proclaimed to be a democratic nation. It is not. It is, in fact, a theocratic/tribal kingdom that votes and has an impressive dollop of racism on the side. A nation-state is a political division wherein the populace identifies itself first with the political division and secondarily, if at all, with subdivisions of that political entity. The French identify themselves as French and not Franks, or Gauls, or any one of the other Celtic tribes that existed in what is now France lo these many years ago. Is that true of Israel? Considering that they are insisting that everybody recognize them as a Jewish state, I think not. The only thing that is keeping the Jewish state intact is impressive support from the US. Support for Israel is waning as a result of their ugly racism and increasing violence (something that people who complain about Palestinian violence tend to ignore). Ultimately, they will either eventually be militarily defeated or they will collapse as a result of being fundamentally different than the socio-economic matrix that they forced their way into.The real way forward for the Israeli Jews to to embrace a multicultural state where they can exist in peace with their neighbors. I understand that they wanted a place of their own after the horrors of the holocaust. That’s actually understandable. But it was also a pipe dream as anyplace they looked, somebody else was already there first. In reality, coming back to the Levant was probably the best choice since Jews have existed in Muslim lands for centuries without the pogroms, forced conversions, and exiles imposed on them by Christian Europe. They have an opportunity here but they will blow it if they continue to insist on being totally in charge.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Johnny-Samara/615444181 Johnny Samara

    It is remarkable to me that the typical human reaction to something not working is to try it again the same way instead of trying something different. I also find people’s ability to revise history fairly remarkable as well. Mr. Obama’s recent speech demonstrates that he lacks the ability to try something new and intends to continue trying to use the same formulas and approaches that have failed for the last 60 odd years.The reality is that the Jews that created the state of Israel are foreign invaders. They may retain their tribal memory of being from the Levant but the long centuries that they spent living elsewhere after they left Judea after the Romans defeated their kingdom changed them and the Levant itself changed its character in those long centuries that they were absent. The Jews are not the first tribe to do this.  The Franks (a tribe from what is now Germany) invaded Roman Gaul in the waning years of the Roman empire of the West. The Angles and Saxons from Germany and the Vikings from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark all invaded what is now England and Scotland much to the dismay of the native Celts and Picts. These are but a couple of examples from Europe but this same story can be told again and again not only elsewhere in Europe but also in  the rest of the world.All of these invasions were fundamentally different from the invasion that resulted in Israel. As an example, when the Vikings invaded Great Britain, they did not try to arrogate some part of the territory to be a new Denmark, Sweden, or Norway. They simply set up shop and went about their business of farming, trading, and manufacture just as they had been doing in their previously native lands. Over time, they intermarried with the native population and now all you can see of their invasion is some town names that indicate that they were established by the invaders and a gene pool that in the general population that is different from that of a pure bred Celt or Pict (genetic analysis has determined this). Parallel examples to the Jewish invasion of Palestine exist. The Crusades to “rescue” the Holy Land resulted in a couple of European kingdoms being established in the Levant that pesisted after the Crusaders left. These kingdoms were not a bunch of Europeans just setting up shop in the Levant; they were Europeans attempting to graft a bit of Europe into the Levant. They didn’t last. They were either militarily defeated by later Saracen warlords or they simply fell apart as a result of being fundamentally different than the socio-economic matrix in which they existed.Now we come to Israel. Israel is proclaimed to be a democratic nation. It is not. It is, in fact, a theocratic/tribal kingdom that votes and has an impressive dollop of racism on the side. A nation-state is a political division wherein the populace identifies itself first with the political division and secondarily, if at all, with subdivisions of that political entity. The French identify themselves as French and not Franks, or Gauls, or any one of the other Celtic tribes that existed in what is now France lo these many years ago. Is that true of Israel? Considering that they are insisting that everybody recognize them as a Jewish state, I think not. The only thing that is keeping the Jewish state intact is impressive support from the US. Support for Israel is waning as a result of their ugly racism and increasing violence (something that people who complain about Palestinian violence tend to ignore). Ultimately, they will either eventually be militarily defeated or they will collapse as a result of being fundamentally different than the socio-economic matrix that they forced their way into.The real way forward for the Israeli Jews to to embrace a multicultural state where they can exist in peace with their neighbors. I understand that they wanted a place of their own after the horrors of the holocaust. That’s actually understandable. But it was also a pipe dream as anyplace they looked, somebody else was already there first. In reality, coming back to the Levant was probably the best choice since Jews have existed in Muslim lands for centuries without the pogroms, forced conversions, and exiles imposed on them by Christian Europe. They have an opportunity here but they will blow it if they continue to insist on being totally in charge.

    • Anonymous

      Just to be clear: Are you arguing that Arab Palestinians are the aboriginal inhabitants of Israel?? If you want to call the Jews “foreign invaders,” then there is no one alive on this earth today who can lay claim to any piece of land as its “ancestral” homeland. Sounds like you’re rejecting a two-state solution and promoting a one-state solution, with no Jews!

  • Yuri Paskalovich

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    Doesn’t the massive amount of aid (3-4 billion dollars a
    year, over $100 billion total) that we give to Israel buy us any leverage at
    all?  

     

    Or do we have to wait until Nyet&yahoo is out of office?

     

     

     

  • Yuri Paskalovich

    Doesn’t the massive amount of aid we give to Israel (3-4 billion dollars a year, over $100 billion in all) buy us any leverage at all with their government?

    Or do we have to wait until Nyet&yahoo is out of office?

     

    • Anonymous

      Apparently not. Perhaps we should give them more? 3-4 billion realy isn’t all that much. Hell, in my small state, the unfunded pension liability is twice that amount!!

  • CDD

    And as the conversation develops you can see the trend. The hatred of Israel, the wild accusations of atrocities, the complete lack of balance, the goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. It is all there in your posts.

    With God’s help we are not going anywhere, no matter how much our existence annoys you.

    If you want peace you have to recognize our right to live here as well.

    And if you won’t it will be conflict forever.

    In 1948 you figured you could wipe us off the map in weeks. Bad miscalculation. For 63 years you have been trying to cover up the fact of the blunder you made and the disastrous consequences for the Palestinians. 

    Now you seem to think you can do it again, militarily, politically or both.
    It’s there in your posts.

    Again, you are miscalculating.

    • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

      the final argument of the isreali lobby… might makes right. I can’t wait for the day that the US withdraws its support from Isreal. Whatever will you guys do without us?  

      • Mr. Sane

        No. Might Makes Right was not the argument. Where do you see that in the post?

        The argument is if you want peace recognize we have a right to live in that land in peace with you, and stop plotting how to demonize and destroy us.

        Had the Arab world taken that approach for the last 63 years we would be in a much saner place now.

        If you want to perpetuate hatred and conflict, just don’t think we are going to roll over and go away just to make you happy.

        • Michael

          yet the PLO recongized israel in 1993 (jewish Library)
          , the arab league offer to in the early 2000 (BBC) if it return to it’s 1967 boarders, Hamas has stated a similar offer. (NPR)

          • Mr. Sane

            Yes the PLO did. I was really hopeful when that happened.

            But here we are 18 years later with Hamas running the territory we gave up and its the same damn issue.

            The comment about Hamas is not correct. They have not made that offer.

          • Michael

            Research “How Israel help spawn Hamas” by the WJS

            Also research the abuse against peaceful protestors in the westbank and settler attacks aka terrorism if it was a non-jew

            The Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, said on Saturday his government was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

            Tony Blair, asked Haniyeh to repeat his offer. He said the Hamas government had agreed to accept a Palestinian state that followed the 1967 borders and to offer Israel a long-term hudna, or truce, if Israel recognized the Palestinians’ national rights. 

            http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

          • Mr. Sane

             You make my point. They **do not** say that they are willing to accept  Israel.  What they mean is that  they are willing to take the 1967 borders and lay low for a while until they go for the rest of it.

          • Michael

            Therefore, you believe you cannot have peace, since you believe they will (sic) lay low. hence the issue.

          • Anonymous

            reading comprehension is your problem, dear Michael

          • Anonymous

            once again, since NPR keeps removing this.
            This is classic case of failed grade in reading comprehension

          • Michael

            ad homs from someone clearly beaten.

            Still waiting for your sources, facts and proof. oh wait you still don’t have it.

            anyways since plushkin has dragged things down to ad hom personal attacks, for anyone else  Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath  has debunked much if not all of what he said which is taken from Joan Peters debunked book.

            I like others to notice Plushkin responses, lack of creditable resources, does not cite his claims or sources ang engages in ad hom nearly in every post. Plushkin is a clearl poster child for the israeli right and it’s supporters. I like to add that plushkin plays on emotions hench the reason he does not post his sources. Not facts or realit. I have proven mutiple sources and links to back my claims Pluskin has not.  

          • Anonymous

            PLO has never modified their charter which calls for the destruction of Israel. Their “recognition” is a public stunt, nothing more

          • Michael

            ??? you just said in the post above that the PLO did.

            “Yes the PLO did” remember? Today at 10:32.

            Check the likud charter it states it will not recognized a
            Palatinain state. Great case for why the Pallies should go to the U.N. 

            Since most will see israel current behavior as a stunt. 

          • Michael

            correction Mr Sane stated such. Are you calling him a Liar ?

          • Anonymous

            I’m calling on you to work on your reading comprehension – no more no less. In no way have I contradicted what Mr. Sane said. Yes fatah nominally recognized Israel (in English for western world consumption), and yes they did not augment their charter to eliminate the call for Israel destruction. They have conveyed the session of their parliament on the topic but failed to deliver.

          • Michael

            Yet again no proof to your claim, no citation, nothing besides ad homs.

            again so you believe there can be no peace since as you stated Fatah does not mean such. 

            Thanks again for proving my point of folks like yourself and Likud are disingenuous about a two state solution.

          • Anonymous

            Mr.Netanyahu just reasserted Likud position on state of Palestine a couple of hours ago. So stop your baseless propaganda

          • Michael

            He stated counter to International law and the two state solutions a untied Jerusalem. That palstianinan have no right to defend themselves and nearly all the settlements will stay israel. No right to return so the Palestinians in Jerusalem would be forcefully evicted.

             

          • Anonymous

            I don’t where you get this but he said nothing even remotely close to drivel you have posted.
            – there is no law against unified Jeruslaem.
            – he reaffirmed commitment to two states for two peoples
            – he asserted unified, undivided Jerusalem as eternal capital of Israel. As recognized by US btw.
            – he said nothing about evicting anyone from anywhere. It is product of your sick imagination that Arabs living there’d will be transferred somewhere else.
            – he also asserted that notorious refugee problem must be resolved by those culpable in creating it in the first place i.e. palestinian arabs. Meaning they can return into a state that is yet to be created, partly specifically for this purpose.

          • Michael

            ” he asserted unified, undivided Jerusalem as eternal capital of Israel. As recognized by US btw”

            prove it.

            there’s no such recognization. everything I said is correct. E Jerusalem is to be the part of the New pally state while W Jerusalem will stay in Israeli hands. E Jerusalem has far more pallies than Jews there. Ben N stated no right to return so logically a united Jerusalem would expel those non-israeli.

            “- he reaffirmed commitment to two states for two peoples”

            Clearly not, by his comments on keeping settlements and a United Jerusalem both counter to the two state solution. Not to mention disallowing the Pallies the right to protect themselves. This is clearly stated by him and in his charter. So again your wrong.  

          • Anonymous

            “E Jerusalem is to be the part of the New pally state while W Jerusalem will stay in Israeli hands. ” false no one ever has written that into any law
            “Ben N stated no right to return so logically a united Jerusalem would expel those non-israeli.” your logic? you have not a slightest idea what logic is.stop projecting.

            and the rest of your so called logic is going along the same lines.

          • Michael

            ” there is no law against unified Jeruslaem.”

            International law.
             
             

          • Anonymous

            what law again? citation needed.

          • Anonymous

            I don’t where you get this but he said nothing even remotely close to drivel you have posted.
            – there is no law against unified Jeruslaem.
            – he reaffirmed commitment to two states for two peoples
            – he asserted unified, undivided Jerusalem as eternal capital of Israel. As recognized by US btw.
            – he said nothing about evicting anyone from anywhere. It is product of your sick imagination that Arabs living there’d will be transferred somewhere else.
            – he also asserted that notorious refugee problem must be resolved by those culpable in creating it in the first place i.e. palestinian arabs. Meaning they can return into a state that is yet to be created, partly specifically for this purpose.

          • Michael

            correction Mr Sane stated such. Are you calling him a Liar ?

          • Mr. Sane

            Forgot to mention Iran. Hezbollah. Etc,

        • Michael

          “The argument is if you want peace recognize we have a right to live in that land in peace with you, and stop plotting how to demonize and destroy us.”

          Maybe stop taking land outside of Israel could help. As to us are you israeli?

          • Mr. Sane

            Yes I am. And I’d love to vote for a land for peace deal. Trust me.
            And most of my friends would too.

            But none of us feel we can given what Hamas has done in Gaza the last 5-6 years. I can’t have rockets raining down on me from the West Bank.

             So I’m stuck.

          • Michael

            But gazans can have bombs rain down on them? or people in the west bank can have settlers attacks on them, destory trees, land grabs and daily humilation?

          • Anonymous

            one thing for sure – they are not getting foodstamps for lobbing rockets, blowing up buses, teaching hate to their children and their pathetic efforts to rewrite history, denying Jewish connection to this land.

          • Mr. Sane

            You are getting desperate here.  Israel bombs Gaza in response to or to prevent terror attacks. Any suggestion otherwise is a lie.

            There are very few settler attacks on Palestinians. This is greatly exagerated. And they give as good as they get.

            And yes there is a huge difference between building a highly armed terror enclave and this kind of stuff.

            I am not saying Israel is perfect. I am not saying I am in favor of all these settlements or the way certain people act.

            I *am* in favor of a solution and one HUGE obstacle is the fact that I worry that a Palestinian State will become a launching ground for terror, and the facts support that concern.

            So Michael maybe go do something about that?
             

          • Michael

            Desperate not at all, trying to find your baseline,  it seems that your more than willing to dismiss settler violence. As well you presented no facts so how can facts support such concern when you clearly presented none?

            “There are very few settler attacks on Palestinians. This is greatly exagerated. And they give as good as they get.”

            I guess hundreds could be considered a few.

            -1/03/2011Hundreds of Jewish rioters continue violent racial attacks against
            Palestinians near the entrance of the villages of Hawara and Burin
            southeast of Nablus.

            They had set fire to the home of Rabee Taha in Hawara but Palestinian
            fire crews managed to extinguish it, informed sources reported.

            Israeli NGO Yesh-Din claims that 91% of the 642 investigations that
            it is monitoring are closed without any indictment filed against the
            defendant. The situation is, in fact, even worse than this because only
            a small proportion of complaints are ever taken to the authorities: most
            Palestinians are wary about dealing with the Israeli police.If
            settlers are charged then the case is dealt with in Israeli courts
            according to civilian law, which provides a significant number of
            safeguards and legal protection. Palestinians live under Israeli
            military rule and as a result do not enjoy the same legal protection
            that they would have under civilian rule. This ‘dual system of law’ is
            of concern to Israeli human rights group, BT’selem.
            Tuesday March 01, 2011 10:38 by Saed Bannoura – IMEMC & Agencies

            Angered by the Israeli army for demolishing, on Monday, four homes at
            the Gilad illegal settlement outpost near the northern West Bank city of
            Nablus, Israeli settlers carried out several attacks against the
            Palestinians, and vowed further attacks in coming days.The settlers
            started rioting after the army demolished four homes in the illegal
            Gilad outpost, and announced that the Palestinians “will pay a high
            price” for the evacuations.They said that they marked down
            several Palestinians targets, and that they might also conduct attacks
            against mosques in the Nablus area. Settler leaders said that
            the army’s “use of violence against them will have direct effects
            against the Palestinians who will pay the heavy price for that”.

            http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2011/March/1%20n/Illegal%20Israeli%20Settlers%20Attack%20Palestinian%20Villages,%20Property,%20Roads,%20Without%20Intervention%20from%20Israeli%20Occupation%20Forces,%20March%201,%202011.htm

          • Michael

            Desperate not at all, trying to find your baseline,  it seems that your more than willing to dismiss settler violence. As well you presented no facts so how can facts support such concern when you clearly presented none?

            “There are very few settler attacks on Palestinians. This is greatly exagerated. And they give as good as they get.”

            I guess hundreds could be considered a few.

            -1/03/2011Hundreds of Jewish rioters continue violent racial attacks against
            Palestinians near the entrance of the villages of Hawara and Burin
            southeast of Nablus.

            They had set fire to the home of Rabee Taha in Hawara but Palestinian
            fire crews managed to extinguish it, informed sources reported.

            Israeli NGO Yesh-Din claims that 91% of the 642 investigations that
            it is monitoring are closed without any indictment filed against the
            defendant. The situation is, in fact, even worse than this because only
            a small proportion of complaints are ever taken to the authorities: most
            Palestinians are wary about dealing with the Israeli police.If
            settlers are charged then the case is dealt with in Israeli courts
            according to civilian law, which provides a significant number of
            safeguards and legal protection. Palestinians live under Israeli
            military rule and as a result do not enjoy the same legal protection
            that they would have under civilian rule. This ‘dual system of law’ is
            of concern to Israeli human rights group, BT’selem.
            Tuesday March 01, 2011 10:38 by Saed Bannoura – IMEMC & Agencies

            Angered by the Israeli army for demolishing, on Monday, four homes at
            the Gilad illegal settlement outpost near the northern West Bank city of
            Nablus, Israeli settlers carried out several attacks against the
            Palestinians, and vowed further attacks in coming days.The settlers
            started rioting after the army demolished four homes in the illegal
            Gilad outpost, and announced that the Palestinians “will pay a high
            price” for the evacuations.They said that they marked down
            several Palestinians targets, and that they might also conduct attacks
            against mosques in the Nablus area. Settler leaders said that
            the army’s “use of violence against them will have direct effects
            against the Palestinians who will pay the heavy price for that”.

            http://www.aljazeerah.info/News/2011/March/1%20n/Illegal%20Israeli%20Settlers%20Attack%20Palestinian%20Villages,%20Property,%20Roads,%20Without%20Intervention%20from%20Israeli%20Occupation%20Forces,%20March%201,%202011.htm

        • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

          That’s what CCD said. “We won in 48, we’ve won for the last 63 years, we’re going to win now, deal with it.” Might makes right.

          Look, every time one of these isreal lobby or government official guys gets on the radio he keeps saying “we want a democratic and a jewish state of isreal.” nobody even bats an eyelash. If I was an American politician and I got on the radio and said “I want a democratic and white United States” I’d be called a racist, and I *would* be a racist.
          People don’t talk about keeping their state ethnically pure unless they have ethnic minorities within that state that they don’t like. In this case it’s the palestinians and arabs in general. Seeing as Isreal is committed to a program of racial oppression and injustice, it’s not surprising at all that you have violent unrest among the palestinians. No justice, no peace. Simple as that.

          And I don’t think Isrealis should be surprised that people try to get rid of that state either. If a bunch of people from another country started showing up in Ohio, talking about “this is our ancestral land we want an independent state” you can bet there would be a big fight over it. But again, Americans are all too willing to apply the double standard to the middle east. Why I cannot imagine. But if what had happened over there had happened in the country I live in, I’d be fighting too.

          I’m just waiting for the day that Isreal can’t manipulate and bully the US anymore. The whole thing is too ridiculous for words, but here comes Netanyahu dressing down the President of the United States, as if we depended on Isreal and not the other way around. When we stop providing diplomatic cover for you guys, when we stop selling you weapons at bargain basement prices, when we stop financing you, etc etc., you won’t have any friends left at all and it will be time to pay the piper. Bet on it.

          • Anonymous

            But you see, the US isn’t going to stop doing those things. You may not understand what we get out of our relationship with Israel, but our political leaders and representatives from both parties, our military leaders, our business and industry leaders, our scientific and medical community, our technology entrepreneurs, our institutions of learning and research all understand very well the value of our relationship with Israel. Ambassador Kurtzer did a terrible job of delineating the many ways in which we benefit from Israel’s experience, inventiveness, creativity and expertise in multiple fields. But the evidence speaks for itself. Doesn’t mean we can’t criticise Israel, but we certainly aren’t going to “cut her off”!

          • http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com GreatGunz

            Perhaps you can deliniate better than Mr Kurtzer… what benefits we get out of this relationship… that are worth the billions of dollars we send over there, the enmity of millions upon millions of people who might otherwise be our friends, and the damage to our prestiege as a country that goes along with allying ourselves to a racist neocolonial state. It’s pretty obvious what Isreal is getting out of this deal: they have the freedom to do whatever they want. But it’s not at all clear that we’re getting anything good out of it.

            Isreal will never take the peace process seriously as long as we support them unconditionally. Why should they? Right now they have a free hand. They can do whatever they want. They’ve got a good thing going, so why mess that up with a treaty? But when the United States, Isreal’s one and only friend on the whole planet, starts withdrawing that support… then the Isreali gov will all the sudden get alot more reasonable. I’m just ashamed for my country that we make this possible.

          • Anonymous

            google it. You’ll find more than enough to blow one’s mind. One thing you WON’T find though is the plethora of images of Israelis burning American flag or otherwise disrespect the US in any way.

          • Michael

            http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel-1.244044

            Report: Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel
            According to Ma’ariv, Netanyahu said Israel is ‘benefiting from attack’ as it ‘swung American public opinion.’

          • Anonymous

             I don’t see anything in this statement (even if genuine) that is parallel in any way to dancing on the streets on the very same day or burning flags regularly. 

          • Michael

            lol, changing the goal post, you stated disrespect. This is clearly a case. It’s amazing you keep coming up with excuses.  

          • Anonymous

            what on earth are you talking about?

          • Anonymous

            google it. You’ll find more than enough to blow one’s mind. One thing you WON’T find though is the plethora of images of Israelis burning American flag or otherwise disrespect the US in any way.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_O7C5ZLQ2GANQ5HVBOUZXHKB6XY kelly

    A refugee is defined as ‘Under the United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees
    of 1951, a refugee is more narrowly defined (in Article 1A) as a person
    who “owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of
    race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or
    political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is
    unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the
    protection of that country’
    Why does the USA not offer refugee status to palestinians, of which 60% are minors’?

  • Buzzy9

    I only heard a few minutes of your broadcast but it was very disappointing.  During those few minutes I heard your guest, Michelle Dunn, state that Gaza was occupied and that the demonstrations by Palestinians during their surges across into Israel and the Golan heights were non-violent.  Both of these assertions were not true.  Israel, under Ariel Sharon left Gaza, only to then suffer terror attacks and the launching of thousands of missles into Israeli civilian centers. Ms. Dunn may believe that firing flares, throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks at Israeli soldiers is non-violent but the ten Israeli soldiers injured in the Golan by these attacks may not agree.  She is uninformed, careless about her statements and/or intentionally propagandizing. It was unfortunate that you did not correct her errors.  But then you made a statement suggesting that the Israeli reaction to the incursions was similar to what the Mubarak regime launched on demonstrators in Cairo!  Yes, guns were fired and three Palestinians were killed during their incursion but these invaders were bussed to the border by Syrian regime.  They may have responded to social media rallying them to violate Israel’s sovereignty but it is worth recognizing that their goal is to delegitimize and destroy Israel, the same country they are criticizing for not giving up more territory and agreeing to a peace that requires Israel to increase its vulnerability. Bashir Assad’s motivation was to distract attention from the widespread murder of Syria’s citizens. I heard no mention of this during the minutes I listened. 

    Why doesn’t NPR develop a program that might focus on key factors that  motivate Israelis and Israel supporters to be very suspect of Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and their supporters?  These include the following:

    1. The names and human rights defying behavior of many of the countries that are members of the UN Human Rights Council.
    2. The widespread pronouncements, especially in Arabic, made by media, religious and political leaders, and also “educators” in the Muslim world. The propaganda generated has the vicious ring of Nazi antisemitism at its worst.   
    3. The expulsion of more Jews from Arab countries than the number of Arabs who left what became Israel during the war that resulted from the attack on Israel in 1948.  Very few in your audience are even aware of this important fact. 
    4.  The lies generated by Arab terrorist groups distorting Israeli actions and then, without appropriate skepticism and investigation, repeated by even Western media, including NPR, the NY Times, LA Times, CNN, Manchester Guardian and many others.

    Israel is not perfect.  It is a real country with real people.  However, the gross misrepresentations are too frequent and a reflection of the poor quality reporting that is only too prevalent.  It is okay to criticize Israel but not to disseminate propaganda as news.

    • Maureen

      Well said ,WBUR is censoring many people who are are correcting the lies and propaganda against Israel . So I am glad you were able to post this. Thank you .

    • Michael

      lol,

      1. are you refering to the same HRG you call liers in point 4.? Your aware two wrongs don’t make right
      2. Go to the FM. rally and see the same thing, death to arabs, read up on rabbi’s calls against renting to it’s arab minorities, listen to open racism in the knessent calling it’s minorities a 5th column, look at the schools system between jews and arabs and check the polls. all trending more racist ynet or haaztz has them if you wish to look them up
      3. Check my post on debunking joan peters book by the israeli historians, you also omit, illegal immigrantion, teachers, agents from israel attempts to bring jews to israel, subsidy programs, national/religious belief as to coming to israel, and people who risk thre lives to bring jews to israel.
      4. All lies right? lol cause israel would never do that, esp with a right wing government in charge. have any HRG you support? or is it only lies in regard to israel and truth for any other nation?

      • Anonymous

        well I guess someone had to do it…
        Michael sorry to tell you that your posting of non sequitur responses on this site is only making you to look foolish. Let’s take this latest masterpiece as a case in point, shell we?

        - you’ve been advocating that deflecting the blame by pointing that the other side is no better is a poor form, and I agree with that. Now take a closer look at your pathetic attempt to “rebut” buzzy9 on his assertion of inherent Arab antisemitism by bringing up regrettable quotes from one insane rabbi and piling up slogans that look like coming from ahmadinijad mouth. two wrongs do make it right after all heh?

        - annoying remarks that everything that alleges that Arab exodus as sponsored by their own brethren comes from the single source of Joan Peters book. This is false. There are quite a few other studies supporting majority of claims, Arab leaders admitted that, even the critics of the book themselves know that what they “debunked” was the delivery and the logic with which conclusions were drawn, not the facts.Faulty presentation notwithstanding, Miss Peters’s hypothesis is on the table; it is incumbent on her critics to cease the name-calling and make a
        serious effort to show her wrong by demonstrating that many
        thousands of Arabs did not emigrate to Palestine in the period
        under question and consequently did not leave on their own accord without even seeing single Israeli solder. Just quit it. You’re not in the league to argue that.
        The bottom line you’re full of it and at the same time have no significant knowledge of the problem, all your “contributions” here are just cut and paste stupidity from all over the web.

        • Michael

          If this is the best you got than you failed , nice Ad homs I see you realize that your unable to dispute such so you go personal. No matter.

          “you’ve been advocating that deflecting the blame by pointing that the other side is no better is a poor form,”

          funny wasn’t this what bibi did today and others on this cite has.

           -You state other  studies other than Joan Peters boook yet cite “none”

          -you state that arab leaders admit such but yet do not cite your source or the arab leader.  Joan Peters book is only believed/valued by propagandist even Israeli historians point this out. 

          For example.
          - Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath
          -In 1986 Yehoshua Porath repeated his views in The New York Review of Books, and published a negative review that cites many inacuracies

          • Michael

            In cased you missed it

            http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/?page=2

            Much of Mrs. Peters’s book argues that at the same time that
            Jewish immigration to Palestine was rising, Arab immigration to the
            parts of Palestine where Jews had settled also increased. Therefore, in
            her view, the Arab claim that an indigenous Arab population was
            displaced by Jewish immigrants must be false, since many Arabs only
            arrived with the Jews. The precise demographic history of modern
            Palestine cannot be summed up briefly, but its main features are clear
            enough and they are very different from the fanciful description Mrs.
            Peters gives. It is true that in the middle of the nineteenth century
            there was neither a “Palestinian nation” nor a “Palestinian identity.”
            But about four hundred thousand Arabs—the great majority of whom were
            Muslims—lived in Palestine, which was divided by the Ottomans into three
            districts. Some of these people were the descendants of the pre-Islamic
            population that had adopted Islam and the Arabic language; others were
            members of Bedouin tribes, although the penetration of Bedouins was
            drastically curtailed after the mid-nineteenth century, when the Ottoman
            authorities became stronger and more efficient.
            As all the
            research by historians and geographers of modern Palestine shows, the
            Arab population began to grow again in the middle of the nineteenth
            century. That growth resulted from a new factor: the demographic
            revolution.

          • Michael

            Until the 1850s there was no “natural” increase of the population,
            but this began to change when modern medical treatment was introduced
            and modern hospitals were established, both by the the Ottoman
            authorities and by the foreign Christian missionaries. The number of
            births remained steady but infant mortality decreased. This was the main
            reason for Arab population growth, not incursions into the country by
            the wandering tribes who by then had become afraid of the much more
            efficient Ottoman troops. Toward the end of Ottoman rule the various
            contemporary sources no longer lament the outbreak of widespread
            epidemics. This contrasts with the Arabic chronicles of previous
            periods in which we find horrible descriptions of recurrent
            epidemics—typhoid, cholera, bubonic plague—decimating the population.
            Under the British Mandate, with still better sanitary conditions, more
            hospitals, and further improvements in medical treatment, the Arab
            population continued to grow.

            The Jews were amazed. In spite of the Jewish immigration, the
            natural increase of the Arabs—at least twice the rate of the
            Jews’—slowed down the transformation of the Jews into a majority in
            Palestine. To account for the delay the theory, or myth, of large-scale
            immigration of Arabs from the neighboring countries was proposed by
            Zionist writers. Mrs. Peters accepts that theory completely; she has
            apparently searched through documents for any statement to the effect
            that Arabs entered Palestine. But even if we put together all the cases
            she cites, one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of
            the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural
            increase.

            See if I stated such you would have said it’s not true and asked for proof.

            Now here you go.

            Glad to prove you wrong yet again.

      • Anonymous

        well I guess someone had to do it…
        Michael sorry to tell you that your posting of non sequitur responses on this site is only making you to look foolish. Let’s take this latest masterpiece as a case in point, shell we?
         
        - you’ve been advocating that deflecting the blame by pointing that the other side is no better is a poor form, and I agree with that. Now take a closer look at your pathetic attempt to “rebut” buzzy9 on his assertion of inherent Arab anti-Semitism by bringing up regrettable quotes from one insane rabbi and piling up slogans that look like coming from ahmadinijad mouth. two wrongs do make it right after all heh?
         
        - annoying remarks that everything that alleges that Arab exodus as sponsored by their own brethren comes from the single source of Joan Peters book. This is false. There are quite a few other studies supporting majority of claims, Arab leaders admitted that, even the critics of the book themselves know that what they “debunked” was the delivery and the logic with which conclusions were drawn, not the facts. Faulty presentation notwithstanding, Miss Peters’ hypothesis is on the table; it is incumbent on her critics to cease the name-calling and make a
        serious effort to show her wrong by demonstrating that many
        thousands of Arabs did not emigrate to Palestine in the period
        under question and consequently did not leave on their own accord without even seeing single Israeli soldier. Just quit it. You’re not in the league to argue that.
        The bottom line you’re full of it and at the same time have no significant knowledge of the problem, all your “contributions” here are just cut and paste stupidity from all over the web.

        • Michael

          lol, repeating your ad homs. way to go.

          I do understand you can dispute what I wrote.

  • Michael

    If anyone is interested,  14 part, see for yourself how Alan D relies on emotions while Chomsky rely on facts and much like some here when
    Dershowitz can’t win he goes to ad hom personal attacks much like some of the posters here.

    Chomsky and Dershowitz debate Israel and Palestine

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvJrb5lKu4

    Norman Finkelstein vs Alan Dershowitz where Alan Dershowitz wrote his book citing Joan Peters and made a call that if anyone can find what he wrote to be false, untrue, etc, he give them 10k. Finkelstein does just that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sws0V_pVhG4

    Now here’s the piece plushkin choose not to post on youtube between Finkelstein and Morrishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTWxfdVHJWUI couldn’t find anything where Chomsky was out debated in any sense.Benny Morris debunks the claim that arabs were told to flee there homes.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuD-UbmiBT4

  • Michael

    If anyone is interested,  14 part, see for yourself how Alan D relies on emotions while Chomsky rely on facts and much like some here when
    Dershowitz can’t win he goes to ad hom personal attacks much like some of the posters here.

    Chomsky and Dershowitz debate Israel and Palestine

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULvJrb5lKu4

    Norman Finkelstein vs Alan Dershowitz where Alan Dershowitz wrote his book citing Joan Peters and made a call that if anyone can find what he wrote to be false, untrue, etc, he give them 10k. Finkelstein does just that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sws0V_pVhG4

    Now here’s the piece plushkin choose not to post on youtube between Finkelstein and Morrishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTWxfdVHJWUI couldn’t find anything where Chomsky was out debated in any sense.Benny Morris debunks the claim that arabs were told to flee there homes.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuD-UbmiBT4

  • Michael

    Those indefensible 1967 borders

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/05/israel_and_palestine_1

    http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/88760/the-tragedy-the-likudnik-freak-out

    The Tragedy Of The Likudnik Freak-Out

    Jonathan Chait
    laments the “Likudnik freakout”, saying it’s based on the
    misapprehension that a massive invasion by the regular armed forces of
    Syria or Jordan remains the great threat to Israel’s security; in an age
    when the real threats are demographic shift, terrorism, and loss of
    international and governing legitimacy, worrying about borders from the
    standpoint of military strategy misses the po

  • Michael

    lol, some people are using multiple names.

  • Anonymous

    some comments disappearing with a message “removed” and some are just gone like there never been any– nice job NPR. You can ban me here but this won’t help neither ‘palestenian’ cause, which is beyond help anyhow, nor Vivien. Keep it up! Your bias is obvious and public is aware. All public funding to this rotten organization should and will stop.

  • Anonymous

    well I guess someone had to do it…
    Michael sorry to tell you that your posting of non sequitur responses on this site is only making you to look foolish. Let’s take this latest masterpiece as a case in point, shell we?

    - you’ve been advocating that deflecting the blame by pointing that the other side is no better is a poor form, and I agree with that. Now take a closer look at your pathetic attempt to “rebut” buzzy9 on his assertion of inherent Arab antisemitism by bringing up regrettable quotes from one insane rabbi and piling up slogans that look like coming from ahmadinijad mouth. two wrongs do make it right after all heh?

    - annoying remarks that everything that alleges that Arab exodus as sponsored by their own brethren comes from the single source of Joan Peters book. This is false. There are quite a few other studies supporting majority of claims, Arab leaders admitted that, even the critics of the book themselves know that what they “debunked” was the delivery and the logic with which conclusions were drawn, not the facts.Faulty presentation notwithstanding, Miss Peters’s hypothesis is on the table; it is incumbent on her critics to cease the name-calling and make a
    serious effort to show her wrong by demonstrating that many
    thousands of Arabs did not emigrate to Palestine in the period
    under question and consequently did not leave on their own accord without even seeing single Israeli solder. Just quit it. You’re not in the league to argue that.
    The bottom line you’re full of it and at the same time have no significant knowledge of the problem, all your “contributions” here are just cut and paste stupidity from all over the web.

  • Anonymous

    Here the __REALIST__  lefty laments on the conflict. I give you Benny Morris, ladies and gentlemen.
    http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm

    • Michael

      this proofs what? Morris a Zionist


      Two years ago, different voices began to be heard. The historian who was considered a radical leftist suddenly maintained that Israel had no one to talk to. The researcher who was accused of being an Israel hater (and was boycotted by the Israeli academic establishment) began to publish articles in favor of Israel in the British paper The Guardian.”

      Sounds like the radical rightwingers like yourself attacked and slanded him enough to changes his views. Much like they did to Goldstone and his grandson.

      Interesting

      “There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don’t think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes.”

       

  • Anonymous

    REALIST lafty lamenting …
    Benny Morris ladies and gentlemen
    http://www.logosjournal.com/morris.htm

    • Michael

      Might as well quote what else Morris said,

      http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

       His 1987 book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, chronicled the Zionist murders, terrorism, and ethnic cleansing that drove 600,000-750,000 Palestinians from their homes in 1948, thus refuting the myth that they fled under the orders of Arab leaders

      But in an astonishing recent Ha’aretz interview, after summarizing his new research, Morris proceeds to argue for the necessity of ethnic cleansing in 1948. He faults David Ben-Gurion for failing to expel all Arab Israelis, and hints that it may be necessary to finish the job in the future. Though he calls himself a left-wing Zionist, he invokes and praises the fascist Vladimir Jabotinsky in calling for an “iron wall” solution to the current crisis. Referring to Sharon’s Security Wall, he says, “Something like a cage has to be built for them

      • Anonymous

        won’t let me reply

        • Anonymous

          hmm. Let try again…
          The point was to underscore whom exactly Israel is forced to deal with and why she does the way she does. Bibi just articulated the same in even simpler terms: the problem is not palestenian state or its borders or refugees. The problem is Israel very existence along side with it. They can’t get over this like they couldn’t in ’48 and amount of their false claims to the contrary will change that. Even Benny Morris came to realize that.
          On a different topic  just wondering what have I said for you to label me as a “radical” ? The mere fact that I identify with right rather than left? So only lefties are moderate? Nice.

          • Michael

            I notice you dodged what else Morris said, which bibi supports

            So benny morris nows agree with ethnic cleansing. Nothing radical there? not. Btw the west bank under fatah has clearly disputed such claims even the U.S. and Israel admits this.

            So bibi in simple terms calls for
            Ethnic cleasing?If Jerusalem will now and forever being united and pallies cannot return than any pally living there would obviously be expelled or cleansed. and you clearly agree hench the radical. You also stated you do not believe the PLO wants peace. Even when they state such so it clear you do not believe or want peace and doubtful you believe Bibi does as well.

             

          • Anonymous

            typical radical leftist logic: you do believe Jerusalem belongs to Jews hence you are radical rightwinger. Priceless.
            PLO wants peace? Really? what are the signs of that other than empty English language declaration (quote arabic for me and I will convert), rockets, bus bombings, pizza parlor bombings, sending retarded kids with explosives to Israel.     

      • Anonymous

        hmm. was it not `in the’ link I just provided for your enjoyment? What’s the point of repeating this? I think exchanging quotes by somebody who’s position has been known for quite some time precludes our ability to come up with something new and original. It is for dummies. So why don’t we just drop that ? 

        • Michael

          oh yes what does it matter if someone makes a clearly radical statement. The point morris came to realize that ethnic cleansing was indeed a good thing and agrees with bibi and the rightwingers. Going so far is to to distort his historical work for a more biased and ideological verison. I’m sure you would not apply such standard in qouting hamas and the likes.

          Funny how you Apply your standards.  Still waiting from something new or original from you instead of a rehased of debunked tried talking points.

          • Anonymous

             of cause it doesn’t – actions do. for instance did Arafat accept Israel yes , does it matter 18 years later – NO. What did he do? started second intifada do Pals and Israelis suffer the consequences of that ? of cause they DO. 

          • Anonymous

            so apparently you’re considering yourself anything more than cutand paster of `debunked’ nonsense, quite an ego you’ve got pal.  

  • Michael

    anyways since plushkin has dragged things down to ad hom personal attacks, for anyone else  Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath  has debunked much if not all of what he said which is taken from Joan Peters debunked book.
    I like others to notice Plushkin responses, lack of creditable resources, does not cite his claims or sources ang engages in ad hom nearly in every post. Plushkin is a clearl poster child for the israeli right and it’s supporters. I like to add that plushkin plays on emotions hench the reason he does not post his sources. Not facts or realit. I have proven mutiple sources and links to back my claims Pluskin has not.  

    • Michael

      anyways since plushkin has dragged things down to ad hom personal attacks, for anyone else  Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath  has debunked much if not all of what he said which is taken from Joan Peters debunked book.

      I like others to notice Plushkin responses, lack of creditable resources, does not cite his claims or sources ang engages in ad hom nearly in every post. Plushkin is a Clearly poster child for the israeli right and it’s supporters(not all but most). I like to add that plushkin plays on emotions hench the reason he does not post his sources. Not facts or Reality
      . I have provided mutiple sources and links to back my claims Pluskin has not.  He did not disprove or debunk what I provided but engaged in personal attacks a clear sign that he has run out of options.   

    • Anonymous

      correcting broken English and Latin are now considered ad hominem. nice. keep it up source finder.

      • Michael

        Do you dispute making such?

        Since the plushkin can’t prove his case or back it up plushkin might as well go with the task of correcting  grammar. Attacking grammar is a clear sign you have nothing elses. Don’t worry i’ll keep providing sources and info for others and you can correct grammar.

        Cheers   

        • Anonymous

          others have already pleaded their case for you to stop posting nonsense. it will be heard eventually

    • Anonymous

      actually let’s give your ad hominem cry some substance: I regret allowing to myself to engage this village idiot.You win Michael. your logic was impeccable, your sources are shiny, your brain is non existent. see you the very next time Israel is mentioned on the airwaves of this show, as undoubtedly flock of brainless Israel bashers will be here in no time at all.
      P.S. please continue to mutate.

  • Michael

    The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that:
    The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory.Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period.The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation.The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety
    Laws of occupation.http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm

  • Michael

    responding to pluskin is pointless.

    worth reading about Likud and it’s P.M
    ‘Current Knesset is the most racist in Israeli historyCivil rights groups cite all-time high of 21 bills proposed in 2010 aimed at discriminating against Arabs.By Jack Khoury and Dana Weiler-Polak Tags: Israel news The Israeli government passed at least 21 bills aimed at discriminating against the country’s Arab citizens making the current Knesset as being the most racist Israeli parliament since the country’s founding, according to a report released Sunday by civil rights groups

  • Michael

    If anyone is interested,

    Israeli Historian
    Ilan Pappe
    The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4715

    Ilan Pappe is an Israeli
    historian and senior lecturer at Haifa University. He’s also Academic
    Director of the Research Institute for Peace at Givat Haviva and Chair
    of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies. Pappe is an expert
    on Israel and Zionism and the Palestinians’ Right of Return to their
    homeland, is considered “an honourable academic with integrity and
    conscience,” and is a member of the Advisory Board of the Council for
    Palestinian Restitution and Repatriation (CPRR), an organization
    declaring that “every Palestinian has a legitimate, individual right to
    return to his or her original home and to absolute restitution of his or
    her property.”
    Pappe is also one of Israel’s
    “new historians” whose scholarship and writings are based on access to
    material now available from British Mandate period and Israeli archives
    that provide the most accurate and authentic documented history of
    Israel before and after it became a state and which now serve to debunk
    the myths about the years leading up to the Jewish State’s founding and
    those following it to this day.

  • Michael

    The shameful result is that Palestinians then and
    today have almost no rights including being able to live in peace and
    security on their own land in their own state that no longer exists.
    Survivors then and their offspring either live in Israel as unwanted
    Arab citizens with few rights or in the Occupied Palestinians
    Territories (OPT) where their lives are suspended in limbo in an
    occupied country in which they’re subjected to daily institutionalized
    and codified racism and persecution. They have no power over their daily
    lives and live in a constant state of fear with good reason. They face
    economic strangulation; collective punishment for any reason; loss of
    free movement; enclosures by separation walls, electric fences and
    border closings; regular curfews, roadblocks, checkpoints, loss of their
    homes by bulldozings and crops and orchards by wanton destruction and
    seizure; arrest without cause, and routine subjection to torture while
    in custody.

  • Michael

    Ilan Pappé Speaks on Anniversary of al Nakba

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxHdAhZRxQ

  • Michael

    Yehoshua Porath, Israeli historian and professor emeritus of Middle East history. at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem

    Mrs. Peters’s Palestine

    Jews, and Zionists especially, developed their own myths about
    Palestine. First they interpreted ancient Jewish history according to
    the ideology of modern nationalism, equating the old Israelite and
    Judean kingdoms with modern nation-states. The Maccabean revolt and the
    period of Hasmonean rule were seen as typical manifestations of the
    struggle for modern national liberation.
    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/?page=2

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