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A Progress Report On The Arab Spring

Deborah Amos is in for Tom Ashbrook this hour.

We’ll take the temperature of the Arab Spring from Egypt to Syria. What’s really going in the Arab world?

In this citizen journalism image made on a mobile phone and acquired by the AP, Syrian anti-government protesters carry banners in Arabic that read: "Freedom means to stop the killing and arrests," during a rally in the northeastern city of Qamishli, Syria, May 13, 2011.(AP)

In this citizen journalism image made on a mobile phone, Syrian anti-government protesters carry banners in Arabic that read: "Freedom means to stop the killing and arrests," during a rally in the northeastern city of Qamishli, Syria, May 13, 2011.(AP)

A youthful uprising challenged the Arab World’s leaders and two autocrats actually stepped down. It all seemed so easy. But the weeks go by, the work of building new democratic societies is hard.

In some countries, brute force and oil dollars have changed the stakes. Dictators and aging monarchs fight to stay in place as Western powers scramble for coherent policies.

Is the Arab World’s democratic spring faltering? Or are these just the growing pains of a new Arab order?

This hour, On Point: A progress report on the Arab Spring.

- Deborah Amos

Guests:

Gregory Gause, professor of political science at the University of Vermont and former director of the Middle East Studies program.

Tarik Yousef, dean of the Dubai School of Government and head of the Middle East Youth Project. He is also a Senior Research Fellow at the Brookings Institution and at Harvard University’s Belfer Center.

Michael Wahid Hanna, Fellow and program officer at The Century Foundation.

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  • Gary

     Tom, Can you ask your guests why we never see Israelis burning the flags of Arab countries?  Why can’t Arabs share the land with a minority and tolerate diversity?

    • Cory

      Sigh. 

    • Michael

       like the 3% of land Israel shares with it’s 20% minority?

      Not like Israel didn’t make any troubling comments after 9/11… oh it did.

      Former Israeli Prime Minister and current leader of the opposition
      Benjamin Netanyahu has stated during a speech that the 9/11 attacks were
      a good thing for Israel.

      Israel’s Ma’ariv newspaper reported that Netanyahu, leader of the Likud party, told an assembly at Bar Ilan university:

      “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq.”

      Thousands
      of dead Americans and millions more slaughtered Iraqis, along with a
      war torn and divided country is beneficial to Israel, according to Mr
      Netanyahu.

      Netanyahu’s comments echo a previous statement he
      made on the very day of 9/11, as reported in the New York Times,
      September 12th:

      Asked tonight what the attack meant for
      relations between the United States and Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, the
      former prime minister, replied: “It’s very good.”

      Then he edited himself: “Well, not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy.”

      With friends like that who needs………

      • Anonymous

        Benjamin Netanyahu is one person who reflects the ideology of his party and not all Israelis. You’re American, what you are doing here is the same as saying all Americans were 100% behind GW Bush’s actions in Iraq and all his other policies. Every time the Middle East is the topic you fill this forum with as much ant-Israeli rhetoric as you can find.  Meanwhile I don’t see anything from you at all critical of the Syrian governments violent crack down on their own people.
        It is interesting how selective you are.

        • Michael

           Funny how your such a apologist for anything israel, while claiming not to be, I don’t support what syria is doing, but because syria is doing one thing does not justify Israel for doing the same, far worst in the West Bank.
           
          BTW Bibi, is the curent P.M., his party in government believe what he does and openly states such and are far more radical than Likud.
           
          Why so quick to dimiss and defend such a man? unlike yourself I wouldn’t defend the actions of syria when it violates human rights.

          • Anonymous

            First off I was not supporting Netanyahu in any way. How you get this from my post is beyond me. You painted all Israelis with one brush.
            You don’t get off so easy here. Don’t change the subject too me.
            That kind of tactic wont work. You made very specific comment which is what I was commenting on.  You also post a lot of anti-Israeli rhetoric when ever the subject even hints at the Middle East.
            If you are going to do that, you must expect some people to call you on what you post. Again I do not support Netanyahu or his extreme right wing views. 

          • Michael

            “First off I was not supporting Netanyahu in any way. How you get this from my post is beyond me.”

             blah blah, blah,  your strawman is your support,

            “You painted all Israelis with one brush.”

            I cite Israeli, also cite Haaztz and leaders/groups that defends human rights in israel (unlike some) gisha is one, b tselem is another, I cite ynet and haarztz, even israeli historians. Clearly in this case your being dishonest. But I should understand that it’s maybe too much for political ideology to handle. I even take the time to links and details. But one such example was when some stated that Israel help spawn hamas you went on a tirad on how it’s not close to true, but if you would have google or researched such you would have found the WSJ article stating just that. Instead of countering the poster or researching it yourself you choose to attack them providing no details to prove it otherwise. Here’s the link (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html)

            “Benjamin Netanyahu is one person who reflects the ideology of his party and not all Israelis.”

            Never said such,

            “Meanwhile I don’t see anything from you at all critical of the Syrian governments violent crack down on their own people.
            It is interesting how selective you are. ”

            It lame and a logical fallacy to derail a discussion by virtue of the idea that there are other discussions. In fact, that is a specific kind of fallacy. You argue what is being argued. If a person criticizes Israel you answer the criticism, not derail it by pointing to other nations. As the saying goes “two wrongs don’t make a right”

            “You’re American, what you are doing here is the same as saying all
            Americans were 100% behind GW Bush’s actions in Iraq and all his other
            policies”

            Never claimed such

            You stated Netanyahu is only one man, I clearly pointed out he’s the current P.M. and both his party and coalition government takes the same stance if not worst views (your failure to acknowledge or dismiss such can be seen as veil support of such actions).  Yisrael Beiteinu is the third largest party and if you follow anything they have been saying since there clearly racist. The majority of the population has been moving towards the right, as well as polls showing clear racism by the majority of the public.

            “You also post a lot of anti-Israeli rhetoric when ever the subject even hints at the Middle East”

            You also post a lot of  Israeli apologist -rhetoric whenever the subject even hints at the Middle East. Not to mention personal ad homs and name calling

            If you are going to do that, you must expect some people to call you on
            what you post. Again I believe israel has the right to exist within it’s borders.

          • Michael

             lol, guess my response was too much,

            “First off I was not supporting Netanyahu in any way. How you get this from my post is beyond me. ”

            anyways,you  show your support of such government with your Israeli apologist rhetoric.

            ” Meanwhile I don’t see anything from you at all critical of the Syrian governments violent crack down on their own people.”

            It lame and a logical fallacy to derail a discussion by virtue of the idea that there are other discussions. In fact, that is a specific kind of fallacy. You argue what is being argued. If a person criticizes Israel you answer the criticism, not derail it by pointing to other nations. As the saying goes “two wrongs don’t make a right”

            “Benjamin Netanyahu is one person who reflects the ideology of his party
            and not all Israelis. You’re American, what you are doing here is the
            same as saying all Americans were 100% behind GW Bush’s actions in Iraq
            and all his other policies”

            Never stated such but you imply it, besides I cite Israeli journalist, ynet, Haarztz and israeli historians and many of my sources. I would point out both Likud the 2nd largest party and the 3 largest party agree and are far more radical than Bibi’s. If you follow the trend and polls you see racism is on the rise in israel. poll after poll proves this out. Unlike yourself I can often back up what I post.

            Not to mention your constant ad hom and attacks on others you disagree with. A recent example was when a posted said Israel help spawn hamas, instead of researching or countering his claimed you personally attacked the poster. btw if you missed it. (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html)

            “If you are going to do that, you must expect some people to call you on what you post”

            speak for yourself on that one.

        • Michael

          “You’re American, what you are doing here is the same as saying all Americans were 100% behind GW Bush’s actions in Iraq and all his other policies”
           
          Not so whatsoever , I would never make such claim(unlike yourself) I often cite Israel who are against such human rights abuses (haaztz,ynet)
           
          Your grasping at straws to try and prove your point. Funny how you care about human rights until of course it reaches israel than’s its “I’m not a apoligist for Israel but here goes”
           
          You do so majority of the time, you seem to display a supremacy mind think. odd for someone so liberal on most things.
           
          btw if gary didn’t make his comment I prob would of left like that.
           

  • Cory

    I’m curious to see our reaction if any of the new governments choose away from the western, free market model.  How will we react if any of them choose religious fundamentalim over secularism?   

    • Kurlos

      If the new governments choose right-wing religious governments that are racist and oppress women and homosexuals, the Left won’t say a thing as long as they hate Israel or the US. governments that are racist and oppress women and homosexuals, the Left won’t say a thing as long as they hate Israel or the US.

  • Michael

    Wish the Syrians luck, but both the U.S. and Israel supports keeping the current government in power.

    Stability over democracy the American F.P. way.

    Don’t worry the liberal democracy is following in the Syrian steps by shooting protesters as well.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/05/16/136348984/israeli-troops-clash-with-protesters

  • Michael

    Also in the news, NPr has not reported on,

    Nato  left 60+ africans fleeing libya to strave to death. The french were the first to come across them and decided to ignore them. Once it was found the french did so, they denied even being in the area, until the guardian proved that the french were actually they.  Also not reported that arab spring in libyan are committing brutal rapes, attacks and murders of captured soilders and civilians of African origin, are refusing to help African migrants escape

    So much for protecting civilians.

    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2070509,00.html

    Days later, survivors say, two helicopters lifted off from a nearby warship — believed by Guardian reporters to have been France’s Charles de Gaulle
    aircraft carrier — and flew low over the refugee boat. The passengers
    held up the two babies onboard, to show the pilots the desperation of
    their plight. The pilots flew away.

    Then, as the boat drifted, its fuel tanks empty, the passengers began
    to die of starvation, one by one, until just 10 were left alive. “Every
    morning we would wake up and find more bodies, which we would leave for
    24 hours and then throw overboard,” Abu Kurke, an Ethiopian survivor,
    told the Guardian. By the end, he said, “Everyone was either
    praying or dying.” One survivor perished shortly after the boat finally
    docked back in Libya, in government-held Zlitan, near Misratah, on April
    10.
    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2070509,00.html#ixzz1MWCqu07M

    http://frontpagemag.com/2011/04/22/libyan-rebels-terrorize-black-africans/
    Beatings, kidnappings, robbery and even executions
    are among the crimes the rebels are accused of committing against
    immigrant Africans and suspected black mercenaries. Videos have emerged
    showing the rebels’ irrational and inhuman cruelty towards Africans. One
    is of a beheading
    in Benghazi, the rebel stronghold, of a blood-covered man “suspended
    upside-down.” Hundreds of onlookers are cheering and filming the
    savagery to shouts of “Allahu Akbar.” One is heard commenting on the
    victim’s African looks. Another video shows an alleged African mercenary being mercilessly beaten.

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       You always present lots of news articles, but what position are you arguing in favor of?  The NATO mission is to support civilians, but that’s in general, not in specific, since protecting individuals would require a much larger intervention.  Besides which, helping civilians was always code for getting rid of Gaddafi.  We know that; the French know that.  Things just had to be translated in Bureaucratic.

      • Michael

        I’m in favor of the U.S. if they choose to take a moral ground argument than it enforce it on all sides (this is not the case in libya, bahrain, Sauid A, Yeman) or be truthful about it and let the american public decide if they wish to pay more taxes or loss services to do so. Of course we know what the answer would be than. Instead of clearly BS the American public in the guise of protecting civilians. Franch has shown it’s colors when it decided to charge fleeing refugees 6k+ to enter, abandon others to starve to death. The U.S. was concern about egypt having democracy cause of the off chance it may empower the M.B. while in lybria the U.S. knows that al Q member’s are part of the rebels it’s supporting, that the rebels have a deep hatred for Africans (look up pan-africa) and are inhumanly targeting them. I far more in favor of our government being honest and letting the U.S. public decide if they wish to involve themselves in foreign events instead of lying,distorting and misleading them to do so than claiming oopps too late now.

        “Besides which, helping civilians was always code for getting rid of Gaddaf”

        of course I among others have pointed this out yet our government kept claiming otherwise and our media choose to propagate such claim where one would think everyone would realize that such claims were mainly all lies..

  • Cory

    Just noticing that although no mention was made of Israel at all in the show’s intro, it was mentioned by the very first poster.

    Perhaps the people and nations of the mid-east are done somewhat of a disservice when every conversation about them automatically begins and ends with Israel.

    They may not wish to have themselves defined by Israel.  I think they may be much more complex than that gives them credit for. 

    • Anonymous

      I agree Cory, but I bet this forum is going to be filled with a lot of anti-Israeli rhetoric. For instance what is going on in Syria right now is extremely dangerous for the region. It is also clear to see that the Assad regime is ruthless. The recent events this past Sunday show how ruthless this man is. If anyone thinks hundreds of Palestinians can just storm the border between Israel and Syria without being the Syrian military stopping them, they are mistaken. This was a message being sent by Assad to the international community and it’s pressure on him to step down.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/world/middleeast/16golan.html?_r=1&hp

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         This also demonstrates how the Arab governments around Israel treat the Palestinians as pawns.

        • Anonymous

          Well I was trying to avoid that, but yes the Palestinians are used for the political gains of these regimes.

  • Yar

    Could your guests talk about the role food inflation is playing in the middle east?  The US decision to convert food to fuel has worldwide implications.  We are connected to the unrest in more ways than we acknowledge.  Hungry people can’t create a democracy.  How can the US work with these movements to prevent them from simply creating new dictatorships?   We (western powers) have played these countries against each other for a long time. Are we willing and able to deal above board with them as a whole?   Would the US see a United Middle East collection of states as against our national interest?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       Are we responsible for feeding the whole world?  If we grow the crops, we can do with them as we choose.

      • Anonymous

        It does not work like that. Like oil crops such as wheat, corn, rice, and soybeans and the like are sold on international market.

        It’s not that simple, just as more drilling for oil here at home would do nothing for the price you pay at the pump.

        • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

           All right, so we sell them on the open market.  The point remains:  If we grow it, we can do with it as we choose.

          • Anonymous

            Your not getting this. It’s not “ours” to control. It’s the farmers and more often the corporations that control this. 

          • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

            By “ours,” I’m referring to the farmers and the corporations, as well as the nation in terms of its relevant policy.  As a matter of policy, we Americans are looking for alternative sources of energy.  That’s in part because of the instability in the Arab world.  That’s our choice and our right.

      • Cory

        The truth is in the middle.  We are neither solely responsible nor are we exempt as a member of the world’s community. 

    • Cory

      I disagree with your point about hunger and democracy.  Revolution has no better fuel than empty bellys. 

      • Yar

        Revolution isn’t necessarily followed by democracy.  Food insecurity always leads to an unstable society. Unless people have enough food, the next dictator who promises to feed the masses will get a following regardless the validity of those promises.  We can play a role in fostering democracy through a path to food security.  
        For example:
        I would like to see opium fields in Afghanistan plowed under and the farmers paid in wheat for the loss of his opium crop.  If the farmer will plant grain for five years we will then help him buy grain harvesting equipment.  The idea is to replace a destructive economy with a constructive one.

  • robert berger

    A few relevant questions.
    With rising manisfestations of popularity of Palestinians  in the Arab world will the emerging governments be kinder to Palestinians in their country? 
    Will Palestinians be granted citizenship in Lebanon, Syria, etc.
    Will the new governments allow immigration of Palestinians in order to empty refugee camps. The post WW II DP Camps held millions of refugees and epmtied in less than 10 years with over 90% of residents not returning to their country of origin. Will Arab countries especially on the Gulf give financial help to Palestine?

    • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

       The Palestinians in the Arab world are like poverty in America:  a useful subject for bloviating and raising money that ends up supporting the people in power, but something that must never be solved.

      • noslack2327

        The Arab states should need not give the Palestinians “refugee camps.”Why should the Palestinian people seek a land other than their own? The Israelis need to return to the pre-1967 War borders, and learn to live with their neighbors. Our elected officials policies with the Israelis are a travesty and a betrayal of the American people. Why should the Palestinian people seek a land other than their own? The Israelis need to return to the pre-1967 War borders, and learn to live with their neighbors. Our elected officials policies with the Israelis are a travesty and a betrayal of the American people. 

        • Cory

          Who has a stronger claim; The Palestinians to “their” land or the Native Americans to North, South and Central America?

          You are too hung up on whats “their” land.  Israel should offer to return land to the palestinians when America agrees to return land to the Iroquois League, the Cherokee, the Navajo, and the Sioux. 

          • Michael

             What a silly comparison, between those two periods, international law happen. It’s a 100+ year to late to make such a illogical Argument or comparison.  America also had slaves than
             

          • Cory

            So time is the factor making a land claim relevant?  So if made emperor tomorrow, what would you have done with Israel Lord Michael?  Pull all support and allow them to be overrun?  Perhaps you’d like to see them attack their enemies with nuclear weapons on their way out?  It’s too easy to say you don’t like the situation.  Offer a damn solution.  Tired of hearing the constant bitching about Israel without the offer of any realistic solution. 

          • Michael

             Oh I have, I responded to your comment before. Israel has a 20% non-jewish population it’s silly to believe Iran (if your referring to it) or others will nuke the state.
             
            1, not use our veto vote in the U.N. on resolutions towards settlements, this would of course, require Israel to actually seek peace.
            2. Reduce aid to Israel by the % of funding going to and supporting illegal settlements.
            3.  Hold elections in the West Bank and Gaza and support the outcome even if the people win we didn’t want to. This would take much of the stream out of hamas.
            4. Offer the chance of citizenship to Israel Jewish settlers in occupied land as Palestinian jews, They can choose to be Israeli jews or part of the new state.
            5.  Have U.N. peacekeepers enforce the boarders not IDF troops (many with ideological bents)
            6. Exchange proportions of land if both parties agree to connect gaza to the west bank (reducing the need to go threw Israel.
            7. Allow the PLO to collect there own taxes from there citizens
            8. Get rid of the “Center of Life law”
             
            Are just a few things I would do.

          • Pancake

            Michael, while I don’t completely agree on Cory’s implied equivalence, it remains my point of view that American overseas adventurism plays by similar rules and strategies to the continental genocides and displacement of AmerIndian nations, with deceitful revolving policies and broken treaties. Our nation has in recent decades supported the same type of eradications and land seizures in Central and parts of South America. The training available at WHINSEC (School of the Americas) would be recognizable to Kit Carson and other Indian fighters, and they would relish the technology. Israel may become a worse pariah as U.S. empire fades.
            I can imagine oil thirsty Europe forcing a one state solution with a Palestinian majority. That would settle what is essentially a water war. Mythic religious claims are not a basis for land title.

          • Michael

             Hi Pancake,

            I agree with most of what you said about the American past, and the result of what one could call leftist governments in south america seems to be the results of such American adventurism.

            Yes Some are/have been pushing a one state solution but as Norm Chomsky pointed out there more than a 1 or 2 state solution there a third which is for israel to occupied most of the resources and land within the west bank while breaking the area up into districts where it be impossible to govern but not require Israel to give rights or citizenship to the people in such areas(henching keeping it’s jewish majority ).  But I find that trying to uses the actions of american 100+ years ago to justify actions being committed now as beyond silly.  Since there many things america did than that would not be allowed today besides current laws set in place to prevent such.

            As for the Arab spring ,mass protest did not just occur on the Syrian boarder, but also in gaza, and many spots in the west bank the Israeli responded in a similar manner as Syrian responded by opening fire with live rounds, not tear gas or non-lethal means.

            compare geffer link (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/world/middleeast/16golan.html?_r=2&hp) to the bbc (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13410084) and terminology Israel uses for refuges(infiltrators) a pretty dehumanizing term. I do hold out hope that the Israeli left will be able to take charge.

            http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/world-news?oid=194780&sn=Detail&pid=333&Israel-hunts-Syria-infiltrators-after-day-of-bloodshed

            The NYT fails to mention anything to do with nakba or the land mines they crossed to do so. Seems to omits similar protest in the west bank and gaza and similar response and action by israel’s IDF. Counter to popular belief many of these despots have a cordial relationship with Israel. Which is why both the U.S. and Israel supported mubarak till the end, and supports keeping assad in power, along with the King of Jordan, Saudi A.. I doubt this goes unnoticed by the populations in such respective countries.

            “Israel may become a worse pariah as U.S. empire fades.”

            I believe the same as well as the U.S. demographics change and the Israeli government (as trends have been showing) becomes more radical ,which seems is the only country our politicians/media cannot call them on.

          • Anonymous

            Man you do like to twist things up don’t you. The article I posted was about the border between Syria and Israel and the implications of what is going on in Syria in relation to that. If you had read the article more carefully you would have found that it did mention nakba. Few questioned the sincerity of the Palestinian
            refugees who flocked to the border; the day that marks Israel’s
            creation remains a searing date in the Palestinian psyche, and they
            cited the upheavals of the Arab Spring as inspiration.
              Did not see the sentence that stated “the day that marks Israel’s
            creation remains a searing date in the Palestinian psyche”…  There were also two links to other articles that were about Gaza and the West Bank as well as ‘Nakba’.

            You should be more careful if your going try be the self appointed Middle East scholar of the On Point forum.

        • Gary

          The land in 67 you call Palestinian land was actually Jordanian land. You don’t even have the basic facts straight.

    • Ram

       There is a policy within the Arab states not to give other citizenship to Palestinians. This is not being “less kinder” but not to perish the Palestinian cause, and their right to return to their home land cause, and their right to return to their home land

      • http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/ Greg Camp

         That’s the line, but if the Arab governments were looking out for the interests of the Palestinians, they would put a lot more into making a settlement happen.  The conflict between Palestinians and Israelis is useful for the autocrats in that it provides an outside explanation for why life is unpleasant in their countries.

        • Ram

          Actually they did offer many of initiative, the latest major one was by King of Saudi Arabia, the “Arab Peace Initiative”.

          I agree that Arab governments should do more, not just to reach a settlement, but also to make Palestinians life more easer within Gaza, and West Bank, but i am sure this will not please the US government since doing more will mean politically pushing harder on the Israeli side.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_EGAEWDBEXGRHV5D4OHAW6V4DMI Sunhillow

      Arab countries are not required to offer Palestinian refugees citizenship in the same way they’re not required to offer Iraqi refugees citizenship.
      Refugees have an intrinsic right to return to their land. Period.  

  • Michael

    Great show,
     
    Thanks,  
     

  • noslack2327

    Another great show – thank you. 

    I am curious about the comments and calls about Israel, how Israel is influenced by the Arab Spring and how U. S. foreign policy should be so determined. Why??? Those of us who pay the taxes, fight the wars and as Bill Clinton said “Live by the rules,” and most importantly care more about the United States than Israel have Israel fatigue.

    I am over hearing that “Israel is a democracy.” So what? Switzerland is also. Should Switzerland dictate our foreign policy? Our foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel is, in fact, a liability to our interests, as is the BILLIONS in aid we send the Israelis each year

  • Anonymous

    Saudi diplomat shot dead in Pakistan. Shooting comes two days after grenade attack on consulate in Karachi as tensions rise between Sunni and Shia populations.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/saudi-diplomat-killed-pakistan

  • Cory

     Growing up I used to question the veracity of anti-semitism in the world.  Oh I knew of its historical context to be sure, but today?

    The comments on this site over the past few years have been a revelation.  The mindless hatred of Israel by so many is patently obvious and disturbing.  People raining critiscism on Israel and its allies without so much as a suggestion of a productive solution.

    I now openly acknowledge it, yet I still don’t understand it.

    • Anonymous

      Cory, it’s called Antisemitism and it’s alive and well. Just as racism is.
      One can be critical of Israel and it’s policies without being Antisemitic. However it’s clear that most people like to use easy targets for their misanthropic world views. Case in point the comment by griddlecake. How does one respond to that? The comment is not about discussion or debate. It’s about shutting it down. Which is what most folks want to do. I guess we all do it to some extent. Some however are here trying to be clever.

      • Michael

         ”The comment is not about discussion or debate. It’s about shutting it down. Which is what most folks want to do.”

        lol, cause we all know labeling or calling others anti-Semitic is a great way to start/keep a discussion going.

        Anti-semitism’ as a political weapon
        http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story1444.htm

        • Anonymous

          Well some people are antisemitic. You have an annoying way changing the subject to another topic. As I’ve said before this is very annoying and you do this, I think because you somehow think it’s clever, a lot. It’s not a very good device. The comment I was taking about was designed to shut down any discussion. If I’m accusing you of being an antisemitic and I read that in your comments it’s up to you to prove it other wise. As I’ve said before, you can talk about Israel without being antisemitic. It’s not hard but it does take some amount of understanding of a complex problem. Sometimes you do it well and others you do not. However you do not seem interested in a discussion at least that’s how it appears to me. Are you antisemitic? I don’t know, are you?

          • Dutp

            right on the money, geffe.

          • Michael

             of course not, but since you have no basis or defense your going to try. and of course some people are antisemitic, much like some people are Jewish supremacist, much akin to white supremacist here in the U.S. Are you a supremacist cause I notice your often apologist stance in regards to israel unlike any other country including the U.S.?

             It’s equally annoying to to make veil ad homs attacks on others while claiming to want a discussion. I only pointed such out as to how you engage others or your words being clever.

            ” If I’m accusing you of being an antisemitic and I read that in your comments it’s up to you to prove it other wise.”

            So if I accuse you of being a apologist and often supremacist tendencies in regards to israel it’s up to you to prove such? or if someone calls Israel a garrison state and you take offense is  it than  up to you to prove it’s not otherwise its true?  Maybe Obama should have to prove every baseless claims against him?

            I have rarely since I been posting here read or seen you engage in debate in regards to anything israel without the use of personal attacks and ad homs.

            Seems you may want to look in the mirror before coming at others the way you do.

            Your line that “One can be critical of Israel and it’s policies without being Antisemitic. However ”

             is a common tatic to shutdown debate or discussion to what you percieved to be too critical of israel is therefore needed to be shut down and no easier way than that is to ad hom and the use of the word antisemitic.  Or your common tatic of logical fallacy by derailing a discussion by virtue of the idea that there are other discussions example was the use of Syria.

            Funny how such concept and your personal use of it does not apply to any other group of people.

          • Michael

            Joseph Massad on anti-Semitic

            Following arguments made by Edward Said in his 1978 book Orientalism, Massad asserts that 19th Century European anti-Semitic
            characterizations of Jews have transformed in the present era to target
            Arabs, while maintaining the same racialist characterizations, and
            thus, racism towards Arabs and Muslims today is a form of “Euro-American Christian anti-Semitism and…Israeli Jewish anti-Semitism.”[16]
            Massad bases this belief on an understanding of anti-Semitism as a
            specific historical phenomenon originating in Europe, rather than simply
            as hatred of Jews; he writes: “…the claims made by many nowadays that
            any manifestation of hatred against Jews in any geographic location on
            Earth and in any historical period is ‘anti-Semitism’ smack of a gross
            misunderstanding of the European history of anti-Semitism.”[17]

            Massad has characterized Israel as “a racist Jewish state.”[18] In Massad’s view, Zionism is not only racist but anti-Semitic,
            and anti-Semitic not only towards Arab Palestinians, but also towards
            Jews. Massad writes that after Europeans invented the racialist
            conception of the “Semite,” the Zionist movement “adopted wholesale
            anti-Semitic ideologies”,[17]
            and describes Zionism as an “anti-Semitic project of destroying Jewish
            cultures and languages in the diaspora”, which has ultimately led to
            “the transformation of the Jew into the anti-Semite, and the Palestinian
            into the Jew.”[18]
            Massad further accuses Zionists of unjustly “appropriating the fruit of
            the land that Palestinian peasants produced,” and specifies the
            renaming of “Palestinian rural salad (now known in New York delis as Israeli salad)” as an example of Israeli “racism.”[19]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Massadneed proof Dutp writing is full of it, you just seem to cover yours up far better. As well often times (in the case you used it)the use of “”complex”" is a cop out in place of debate or real understanding.

          • Dutp

            thank you michael, for it can not be any more idiotic on your side. Thanks again, our village idiot.

          • Dutp

            thank you michael, for it can not be any more idiotic on your side. Thanks again, our village idiot.

          • Dutp

            thank you michael, for it can not be any more idiotic on your side. Thanks again, our village idiot.

          • Michael

             (Since my long answer has fallen to the void of the internet.)

            It’s amazing that you believe your tactics of name calling increases the discussion. Thought Police comes to mind.

            must be nice to be allow to label,hint or call others names while others are censored in there response. You clearly display the behaviors of a supremacist(in regards to israel) and your comments are nearly always reactive and ad hom in nature.I yet to see you debate anyone in such regard. You claim to want debate but you clearly don’t, this can be seen in your comments, you claim to not be a supporter of the current government and behaviors but vehemently defend there inhumane actions. You talk about civil rights and fight against racism until of course it comes to israel. You make logical fallacies to derail a discussions you claim to want. I would wager your also a zionist (which is inherently racist in it’s current nature.)

      • Michael

         some proof israel is a racist state. Israeli sources, none of the below makes it to the U.S. newspapers even know if the table was turned it be all over the U.S. newspapers. Of course someone like you dismisses such actions below and may explain why such dismissal may cause animosity towards israel.

        Doesn’t sound to much like a liberal democracy there and is far worst when viewing gaza and the westbank. As well teh Arab spring is well aware of U.S. support of such actions below.

        Arabs flee home due to racist threats

        Four Muslims,
        Druze forced out of rented flat in Tel Aviv after neighbors, who say
        rabbi told them Arabs must leave, vandalize their home and threaten to
        attach explosives to their car.http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4003502,00.html

        Report: Current Knesset most racist of all time

        Mossawa Center
        states 21 bills deemed ‘discriminatory and racist’ laid on legislature’s
        table in 2009, a 75% increase since previous year
        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3865696,00.html

        Israeli taxes are funding an anti-Arab worldview

        When Palestinians ‘incite’ against Israel, this
        is a matter for international protest, but when Safed’s chief rabbi
        incites against Arabs, Israeli Jews merely roll their eyes.

        http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israeli-taxes-are-funding-an-anti-arab-worldview-1.350348

        Rabbi Dov Lior,
        a senior authority on Jewish law in the “Religious Zionism movement”

        ‘Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring’

        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4006385,00.html

        Worshippers discovered hate slogans on walls and doors when they arrived for morning prayers.

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/jaffa-mosque-daubed-with-mohammed-is-a-pig-death-to-arabs-1.259956

        Lieberman’s anti-Arab ideology wins over Israel’s teens (3rd largest party in israel)

        The youths, ages 16-18, many of them good friends from school, had stood
        for a long time before the event began at the intersection near the
        hotel, waving Israeli flags and shouting “Death to the Arabs” and “No
        loyalty, no citizenship” at passing cars.

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections/lieberman-s-anti-arab-ideology-wins-over-israel-s-teens-1.269489

        46% of Israeli teens: Revoke Arabs’ rights
         the more religious the higher the #
        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4050228,00.html

        Knesset passes two bills slammed as discriminatory by rights groups
        http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/knesset-passes-two-bills-slammed-as-discriminatory-by-rights-groups-1.351462

        “One bill allows communities to screen potential new residents, and
        another bars public funding of entities that ‘undermine foundations of
        the state and contradict its values.’”

        Bnei Brak rabbis: Don’t rent to Arabs

        In attempt to combat phenomenon of social deterioration, rabbis sign statement forbidding rental to non-Jews in religious city

        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342278,00.html

    • Ram

      Wondering why anyone criticizing political issues regarding Israel is threatened by antisemitism accusations ! is threatened by antisemitism accusations !

  • June

     
     

     

    2. 
    The arabs have no
    intentions to make peace with Israel
    rachel
    ,  usa  
    (05.14.11)

     

     

     

    • Pancake

      It’s really difficult to make peace with a garrison state.

      • Dutp

         of cause it is much easier to deal with Arafat, Abbas and Mashal  who are honorary peace doves and obviously preceded the ‘arab spring’ leading it by example. 

  • Dapper Dan

    What we’re seeing here is nothing more than a repitition of human history for many millenium, which is, two groups competing for the same resources. As always with human endeavors, there is a spectrum of possible outcomes.
    Let’s imagine a really happy outcome. Both sides realize that the available resources could support both their populations, if only there were less of them. They bilaterally begin a program of reducing their birth rates, and in a few decades, the total population is in balance with the resources. Peace reigns.
    What has been happening, since Israel was created, is somewhere different on this spectrum. Both sides are taking one historical response to the problem,which is conflict. This is one possible point on the spectrum of solutions, since this too could, eventually, bring the total population in balance with the resources.
    But, humanity has progressed continuously , and we are not restricted to historical responses. In our lifetimes the UN was created, an institution based on the concept that we can do better. The last decades do not represent the worst point on this spectrum. We need to use our imagination. Will the Arab Spring be the opportunity to embark on a new path?    

  • http://www.ondvdshow.net/newhart-on-dvd-show.html Newhart dvd

    You’ll be able to perform duplication work. A 7 years old kid construct the duplication above a CD. Can’t he? However, remember when you are pondering CV and DVD Duplication for business purposes, you couldn’t (and shouldn’t) trust youngsters or maybe a your nearby neighbor.

ONPOINT
TODAY
Apr 25, 2014
President Barack Obama and ASIMO, an acronym for Advanced Step in Innovative MObility, bow to each other during a youth science event at the National Museum of Emerging Science and Innovation, known as the Miraikan, in Tokyo, Thursday, April 24, 2014. (AP)

Guns in Georgia. Obama in Asia. Affirmative Action. And Joe Biden in Ukraine. Our weekly news roundtable.

Apr 25, 2014
In this Saturday, Aug. 11, 2012 file photo, employees of the New Hampshire state health department set up a temporary clinic at the the middle school in Stratham, N.H., to test hundreds of people for hepatitis C related to an outbreak at nearby Exeter Hospital. A new drug, Sovaldi, is said to successful treat more than 90 percent of Hepatitis C patients. (AP)

Super expensive miracle drugs. How much can we afford to pay?

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Apr 24, 2014
A Buddhist monk lights the funeral pyre of Nepalese mountaineer Ang Kaji Sherpa, killed in an avalanche on Mount Everest, during his funeral ceremony in Katmandu, Nepal, Monday, April 21, 2014.  (AP)

A Sherpa boycott on Everest after a deadly avalanche. We’ll look at climbing, culture, life, death and money at the top of the world.

 
Apr 24, 2014
Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, left, talks with Sen. Ed Hernandez, D-Covina at the Capitol in Sacramento, Calif., Monday, April 21, 2014. Hernandez proposed a constitutional amendment that would ask voters to again allow public colleges to use race and ethnicity when considering college applicants. The proposal stalled this year after backlash from Asian Americans. (AP)

California as Exhibit A for what happens when a state bans affirmative action in college admissions. We’ll look at race, college and California.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
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Thursday, Apr 24, 2014

With a satellite phone call from Mount Everest’s Base Camp, climber and filmmaker David Breashears informs us that the Everest climbing season “is over.”

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The Week In Seven Soundbites: April 18, 2014
Friday, Apr 18, 2014

Holy week with an unholy shooter. South Koreans scramble to save hundreds. Putin plays to the crowd in questioning. Seven days gave us seven sounds.

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