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Are College Campuses A Hostile Environment For Women?

American college campuses and new complaints of a hostile, dangerous sexual environment.

A 2010 rally organized by the National Association of Women in New York. (WeNews/Flickr)

A 2010 rally organized by the National Association of Women in New York. (WeNews/Flickr)

Sex and college are hardly strangers to one another. But there is a new surge of complaints about sexual aggression, coercion on American college campuses.

Yale is out front, with a formal Title IX complaint from students and alumni about a “hostile sexual environment” on campus. There are plenty of echoes. Look at the record out of Indiana, USC, Penn State, American.

Last week, Vice President Joe Biden took up the cry. “Rape is rape is rape,” he told students at the University of New Hampshire.

This hour On Point: a “hostile sexual environment” and the American college campus.

- Tom Ashbrook

Guests:

Presca Ahn, Yale ’10. One of 16 Yale students and alum who filed a complaint accusing the university of violating Title IX by failing to eliminate a hostile sexual environment on campus.  Read their press release at the Yale Herald.

Dorothy Edwards, executive director of Green Dot, a nonprofit dedicated to the prevention of personal violence. She founded the University of Kentucky’s Violence Intervention and Prevention Center.

Gail Dines, professor of sociology and women’s studies at Wheelock college.  She’s author of “Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality.”

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  • Michael

    “Are College Campuses A Hostile Environment For Women?” unless things changed in the past 5 years prob not.

    Seems like this might be a show on male bashing and how everything are the fault of men. With of course hyperbolic and outrageous languages to demonize what seem to be a joke of a few frat guys into a sinsiter plot to keep women down, etc, etc, If it turns out to be the case it will only weaken the case and cause. It seems the incident occurred at 12:31 AM when the womens center was closed and it’s doubtful these guys spent all night hanging out there. of course the act was deplorable, yes, but hardly illegal.

    So what I found on Presca Ahn complaint

    http://www.ivygateblog.com/2008/01/zeta-psi-pledges-love-yale-sluts-womens-center-pledges-to-sue/

    Following a frat stunt picturing twelve alleged Zeta Psis with a sign reading WE LOVE YALE SLUTS by the Yale Women’s Center, the Women’s Center is threatening to sue. YWC publicist Valerie Steinberg (’09) was unable to provide details regarding who they are suing, and for what crime, but she confirmed that the YWC board sent the following email to its list:

    From: Yale Women’s Center
    Date: Jan 21, 2008 10:50 AM
    Subject: This Time We Sue
    To: [redacted]

    Dear Yale,

    The photograph below was taken during a recent Yale fraternity initiation. This is sexual harassment. Lawyers have been consulted, and we are taking legal action.

    If you are unwilling to be enrolled in a school where woman-hating is a subject of pride, email yalewomenscenter@gmail.com now. We will keep you informed.

    “WE LOVE YALE SLUTS” Uploaded to facebook.com January 16, 2008.

    Here’s what she wrote about it, totally hyperbolic from both links,
    http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/apr/01/why-we-filed-title-ix-complain/

    • Anonymous

      Michael did you read any of the comments below the article.
      One pretty much summed it up. That these frat boys will one day regret doing this dumb prank and then being stupid enough to post it on FB. I have to laugh at the these Yale frats boys trying to act all gangsta, that’s hilarious.

  • Cory

    This is a topic with a thousand shades of grey, but is commonly treated as black and white. We’ll see if the show today recognizes these nuances, or just takes the simple approach of blaming men and college institutions. Forty years of living (5 of them spent attending a university) has taught me that the truth usually lives somewhere in the middle ground.

  • Anonymous

    No men on the panel?

  • nicaS

    “Are college campuses a hostile environment for women?”

    Men: [thinks a minute] hmmm… no. Case closed.

    Thanks for listening.

    • Cory

      Your comment is equally reactionary in the sense that you are dismissing legitimate concerns mentioned in previous comments. I don’t think anyone has dismissed the issue. Lots of men have heard this issue before, and have noticed no male panelists today, so a “duck and cover” mentality is not altogether baseless.

    • Dan

      O ho ho ho, good one!

  • Morris

    It is too bad that there is not a man on the panel today besides Tom. It would be a shame if the only male voices sounded on this issue resemble the first couple opinions posted. At least they show us how relevant this topic is, as harrassment does not remain on the campus but carries on into society. Lack of respect is often not nuanced at all, and ignorance remains alive and well. Hopefully we will ALL be enlightened from today’s discussion, and learn to address this issue in a mature and insightful manner.

    • Cory

      What comments are you referring to? You just sound arrogant.

  • Ellen Dibble

    What exactly would you expect of an institution (Yale) that has been a breeding ground of elite white WASP patriarchy for centuries?
    And the broader scope of state universities that have been co-ed much longer? I believe Yale became co-ed about 1972. I think the public universities probably reflect the cultures of the taxpayers, which are also less than perfect. Consider the Walmart women who think that makeup makes them a sex object and should be expendable.
    But colleges have gotten very stringent about zero tolerance on racism — graffiti can get you expelled. Can they get equally stringent about certain ways of treating women? I look to the police force in a city or university to see what standards they actually apply.

    • LinP

      Wow. That is a stretch to be so certain about your inferences re Yale. Did you go there? Been there recently? Know someone there now?

      • Ellen Dibble

        I’ll take the Fifth.

  • Anonymous

    My daughter just spent 4 years on a large New England college campus and from her experience the answer is no. The frat boys are the worse, but she avoided them like the plague.

    However there is a law suite now against Yale and I saw an interview on the news with a student and while the interview was being conducted in the quad some guy yelled out some pretty nasty things to them. Which kind of made the point the young woman being interviewed was making. That Yale had some real problems with some segments of the male population.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Good for your daughter. I hope the program today gives its due to the extent to which women and men manage just fine in probably most institutions late adolescents participate in. (I’m thinking about the military right now, sad to say, after a certain article in Newsweek last week, about rampant male-on-male abuse.) Young people can be extremely considerate. But I think part of being “that age” is being an exuberant tease (if female) and being a bit of a perplexed oaf (if male). Inevitable.

  • Dan

    I am a longtime listener, and I won’t be tuning into the first hour of today’s show. There are indeed real problems regarding sexual assault in America…but college campuses are no more or less safe than anywhere else. I’m familiar with Ms. Dines’ work, and based on her presence, I’m willing to bet that this conversation will make more than a few rhetorical leaps of faith.

    -dan
    Boston, MA

    • Ukumbwa

      Dan, if you really understand this issue and the pervasiveness of men’s sexual assault against women, I would think you’d be willing to hear about and address the presence of such in whatever niches of society it still exists. I would hope you wouldn’t be intimidated by Ms. Dines’ presence and the simple fact that you disagree with her critique. It is more important for men to make themselves respectfully available to the learning process of cultural growth than to digging in their heels against the very process that will break this cycle of men’s violence against women.

      • Dan

        Buddy, I volunteer at a local rape crisis network—my issue is not with the notion that sexual violence is a problem but rather with Ms. Dines’ approach to that problem. In the future, I’d appreciate it if you’d respond to the arguments I’ve made rather than the arguments you’ve heard.

        -dan
        Boston, MA

    • CJ

      Dan, I thought that both guests were excellent. And, Ms. Dines was, SADLY, explaining kids’ relationship to pornography that I heard from my kid was HAPPENING IN MIDDLE SCHOOL! The guest described EXACTLY what I’d heard, a few years ago, is actually happening, yes it is, but even younger than college. So sad and perplexing. Tom’s response to the alternative was perfect. And, Tom’s description of the alternative is what the majority of my age group got to take for granted (early to mid-sixties y.o.). Love, even if puppy love, not pornography and/or narcissistic display went along with sexuality — and, for my age group, most girls were virginal in college, though that didn’t mean sexual relationships weren’t “successful”, though THAT is the part that has been forgotten. I don’t think I can be more explicit. Petting might be a phrase I could use. IF we could discuss what I’m alluding to at the national level, maybe behaviors could change, and there would be that extra layer of protection, physical and emotional, maybe. I think it’s advertising and marketing that got kids into this situation.

      • Dan

        Kids, particularly boys, being interested in porn as early as middle school is not exactly a new development. I’ll find some daguerrotypes if you don’t believe me.

        I’m not going to moralize and say that love was once a necessary precursor to sex because it wasn’t. For some people it was and still is; for others, not so much.

        I’m not willing to absolve rapists because of sexuality in an advertising, and by the same token, I’m not willing to say that Our Poor Children can’t make their own choices. We are not automatons, either in point of fact or in the criminal justice system.

        -dan
        Boston, MA

    • CJ

      Dan, I thought that both guests were excellent. And, Ms. Dines was, SADLY, explaining kids’ relationship to pornography that I heard from my kid was HAPPENING IN MIDDLE SCHOOL! The guest described EXACTLY what I’d heard, a few years ago, is actually happening, yes it is, but even younger than college. So sad and perplexing. Tom’s response to the alternative was perfect. And, Tom’s description of the alternative is what the majority of my age group got to take for granted (early to mid-sixties y.o.). Love, even if puppy love, not pornography and/or narcissistic display went along with sexuality — and, for my age group, most girls were virginal in college, though that didn’t mean sexual relationships weren’t “successful”, though THAT is the part that has been forgotten. I don’t think I can be more explicit. Petting might be a phrase I could use. IF we could discuss what I’m alluding to at the national level, maybe behaviors could change, and there would be that extra layer of protection, physical and emotional, maybe. I think it’s advertising and marketing that got kids into this situation.

  • Ukumbwa

    If listening to women who have clear and ethical and intelligent critiques with regard to violent masculinity and the oppressive male-dominant societal structures and ideologies that men have created, then we should be “men enough” to be able to take just that sort of “bashing”. It is tragic that after men physically, emotionally and spiritually harm women, the mere discussion of that violence is called “bashing”. That kind of reactionary discourse is merely signs of entrenched male oppression.

    Yes, men, we have and DO hurt women. It just may be time to shut up and listen to the important voices that are rising to bring us all into a place of greater knowledge, responsibility and compassion.

    • Dan

      If those critiques prove to be neither clear nor intelligent, can we then talk about them as “bashing”?

      -dan
      Boston, MA

      • nj

        Don’t bother Dan with facts or information. His mind (such as it is) is already made up.

        • Ukumbwa

          …and his and other men’s minds can be and must be un-made up….but I see what you are saying.

          Oy.

        • Dan

          Hey there, Guys Who Talks Tough on the Internet! Do we know each other? I don’t think we know each other. Do you make it a habit to cast sweeping judgment on people you’ve never met?

          -dan
          Boston, MA

      • Ukumbwa

        No, Dan, you should be willing to engage Prof. Dines in that discourse so that we can all come to greater clarity. Even if Prof. Dines isn’t clear, and in that I wholeheartedly disagree, then it is still our job to create clarity on this issue that must be dealt with now, not walk away as if we are “above” the level of discussion just because YOU disagree with one of the participants. Your response is the very core of “polite” male chauvinism. I remind us all of my earlier statement: Shut up and listen.

        • Dan

          You haven’t answered my question. I’m sure Ms. Dines has certain people she’d rather not listen to too—let’s toss out Rush Limbaugh’s name, just for starters. Is she guilty of “polite” prejudice as well?

    • Anonymous

      I can’t speak for all men, but I know that I haven’t hurt women. What are you referring to?

      • Ukumbwa

        What we are seeing and hearing here is that women are willing and able and driven to speak on behalf of other women’s safety and freedom. Not every woman gets hurt. Not all men hurt women, but men must stand up on behalf of men’s learning and growth and responsibility in addressing this issue as gendered violence. If you and I do not hurt women in this way, then aren’t we more responsible for bringing male perpetrators into the light of day? We should know and care enough to speak for all men.

  • Jeff in Iowa

    Too many of these assaults boil down to a “He said, she said” situation. Is this guest saying that the woman’s word should be given more weight, since oftentimes there is no actual evidence?

  • Anonymous

    It’s been my observation for more than a decade that colleges are backing off enforcing an honorable and academic environment on campus. The problem that I’ve seen is that the schools want to be “customercentric.” No one gets expelled for dishonorable behavior. When we let go of standards, all manner of bad acts are to be expected.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Idrisyn

    If there were people under the window of my residence yelling sexual threats at me, I would call 911.
    Why is this not an option for college undergrads?

  • Anonymous

    Aside from the theory that the law and authorities have been complacent, I wonder if another reason why sexual aggression has been on the rise in college campuses is due to the fact that there are less males that are attending college?

    Several years ago, the ratio between girls to boys was 3:2 at some colleges. It could mean that boys are more aggressive toward girls because it’s very easy for a guy to get several dates that it becomes a numerical bragging game among his peers which could easily spiral into a feeling of entitlement and rape. Who knows? John Silber talked about this lopsided ratio many years ago and how it may affect the mentality of college guys.

    It’s a counter-intuitive theory, but I think one worth exploring.

  • Dave in CT

    No means No is tough language? Seems like common sense.

  • Dave in CT

    No means No is tough language? Seems like common sense.

  • Dave in CT

    Another case of No Accountability?

    We don’t throw these guys who can’t excercise self-control out of school, and give them the scarred reputation they deserve?

    Heavens no, then what would happen to our pool of future hedge fund managers!?

    • Jeff in Iowa

      Dave-

      If there is actual evidence, then by all means throw them out of school and contact the police. But what about situations where there is no evidence, only an allegation?

      • Dave in CT

        Obviously innocent until proven guilty, especially for criminal charges. But at the level of School Policy and expulsion, I imagine they are free to use a bit more preponderance of evidence approach.

        Only a tough culture of accountability on campus with real consequences and sense that those consequences will come down hard if their is preponderance of evidence will change behavior.

  • jason

    i’m living in the small mountain top town of sewanee, tn. home of the university of the south and this an issue but people don’t want to talk about it. the university provides the bulk of jobs and runs the poice dept. so when there is an issue, it’s swept under the rug

  • Ellen Dibble

    My own experience of being raped a few times, not on a college campus but as a young woman, was that pointing this out got zero response. It was better for any reputation I had to shut up about it. The perpetrators were not pillars of the community. They were outsiders, visitors. However, when a medical professional touched me inappropriately and I promptly extricated myself, the gears of social outrage immediately put that practitioner out of business. I don’t know how.
    In retrospect I’m thinking how would I have found a lawyer to represent me, had I chosen to prosecute? The district attorney clearly wasn’t expected to be concerned. And a private attorney certainly could not be paid by impecunious me. And what would an attorney get out of helping me? There would not be huge fines for that attorney if the case was won.
    The Yale alum is saying Yalies are not really allowed to go to the police. It’s kept at the administrative level. Who does one go to first? Is it someone embedded in the old guard who thinks these things should be forgiven and forgotten?

    • Ukumbwa

      Ellen, it’s tragic that you had this experience. I’m sorry this happened to you and that it continues to happen to many, many more women than this society wants to admit.

      The brave reports of many women (and men) must be listened to and acted upon.

    • Ukumbwa

      Ellen, it’s tragic that you had this experience. I’m sorry this happened to you and that it continues to happen to many, many more women than this society wants to admit.

      The brave reports of many women (and men) must be listened to and acted upon.

  • Dave in CT

    We can talk around, around and around the why and the how to prevent etc etc, and of course we should.

    But how about we try the old fashioned idea of being punished for what you do. For holding people accountable for making poor choices, instead of finding excuses for them.

    In all aspects of our culture, if we tried tough accountability for perpetrators, we might be surprised at the different world we could live in.

    • daisy /Nebraska

      The one who ends up punished is the victim. Even the courts today still put the women on trial

      • Dave in CT

        so lets start punishing the perpetrators, and the administrators who don’t hold them accountable….

  • Anonymous

    Tom,

    It really is profoundly disturbing that you would have a panel on this subject and not have any men.

    I have read the Department of Education (ED, as they call themselves) Office of Civil Rights (OCR) Dear Colleague letter, AND the SINGLE (as in one and only) study it cites. OCR has in my view, as a lawyer, taken an approach to the problem that is (1) the opposite of data driven, (2) encourages a model of sexual violence prevention that is counterproductive, (3) ignores male victims (apparently deliberately), and (4) treats every man as a rapist.

    Let me be more precise.

    (1) The OCR Dear Colleague letter cites ONLY a 2007 study as support for its one-size-fits-all requirement applicable to every University and College in America.

    (2) The 2007 study did a great job of collecting data about women’s experience on campuses (a sample size of about 5500 that let the study really drill down into what women experience and how they feel about what they experience).

    (3) The 2007 study did a crappy job of collecting data about men (sample less less than one third that of women) and, as a result, the study spends only 2.5 pages out of about 100 pages saying anything about men’s experience either as perpetrators or victims.

    (4) In a nutshell, the 2007 study found that the more men a woman goes home with over time, and the more often a women gets drunk in a bar hookup context, the more chance that woman has of being sexually asaulted. The 2007 study also, found, to the shock of the researchers, that a vanishingly small percentage of the sexual assaults involved date rape drugs, and that the use of such drugs appears to be mainly urban myth and media hype. OCR did not call for any alcohol abuse training on college campuses however.

    (4) The 2007 was shocked, shocked, to discover that 6% of the men were victims of sexual assaults on campus, and shocked, shocked, to discover that only 2.5% of the men were engaging in behavior that could be categorized as sexual assault. Because the 2007 study male sample size was not sufficiently large, however (and why is that, because the researchers had preconceived notions about the male side of this problem???) the study had nothing to say about which men are perpetrators, and how men are victimized. In the four years since, apparently it is not worth spending federal money on getting answers to these two, obvious questions. Why not?

    (5) The surprise of the 2007 study that a very small percentage of men were sexual assault perpetrators is amazing in light of the fact that David Lisak of UMass Boston (why isn’t he on your program, this morning, BTW???) has had research results out before the 2007 study, and updated since, which definitively proves that 90% of all campus sexual assaults are committed by only 8% of men (and about another 2% of men commit sexual assault once and only once, probably as a rseult of miscommunication, booze, etc.). The 8% who are rapists, however, are serial rapists, who use voluntary ingestion of alcohol by young women as their weapon of choice. The typical “acquaintance” rapist commits an average, average of 6 sexual assaults. Some commit twice that. Again, 90% of all campus sexual assaults are committed by 8% of the male population. Lisak’s work is highly respected among feminist (and male rights guys too!) and is well discussed on feminist blogs. So why OCR and their 2007 researchers never heard of this data is astounding.

    (6) So, something like 90% of the campus male population are not rapists and should be the natural allies of their women friends, watching out for them when they are sheets to the wind and some guy tries to pick her up. But instead of OCR trying set up programs to encourage 90% of the men on campus to protect women, OCR has set up a program that continues to assume all men are rapists, and every rapist only rapes one woman, and a civil penalty of expulsion from college is enough.

    (7) This is crazy and counterproductive. Just expelling a serial rapist sends that serial rapist to another college to rape again. It is JUST LIKE what Cardinal Law did moving pedophile priests around parishes.

    (8) Instead, OCR ought to have mandated a program to require Universities and local law enforcement to REALLY DRILL IN to every acquaintance rape allegation, especially where the woman was drinking, with an eye to uncovering all the other sexual assaults the alleged perpetrator may have committed, and then tracking him for several years afterwards if he is found guilty. Lisak found that most of these college serial rapists were narcissistic, proud men, who had started raping in high school. These guys have a track record.

    (9) BTW, this approach would have the benefit from a civil liberties perspective of also doing a sufficiently thorough investigation that those alleged perpetrators who have made a mistake and engaged in one-off behavior are also more likely to be identified, put into intensive therapy and rehabilitated. Because I don’t think any of us want to create a college environment that is hostile toward men either

    (10) Face it, men are now down to getting only 39% of the diplomas, if we view all men automatically as rapists we are simultaneously (a) discouraging men from being allies and helping to protect their female classmates from the bad effects of voluntary drinking, (b) not identifying who the serial rapists or likely serial rapists are and setting them aside from society, (c) not identifying who the one-time rapists are who can be rehabilitated, and (d) telling half the population (the male half) that they are not welcome in the college environment.

    Thanks for the opportunity to weigh in.

  • Jennifer

    Can we please call this what it is? It’s not misbehavior, it’s not boys-will-be-boys. It’s rape. Doesn’t matter if the rapist is on Dean’s list or not

    • Ukumbwa

      Thank you, Jennifer.

  • diana.

    The problem isn’t just rape…the “hostile sexual environment” contains implicit pressure or approval for women to participate in conscentual sex throughout young adulthood, combined with substance abuse. In many cases, there’s never a “no means no.” Just two drunk kids, one who wakes up with regret and guilt, and the other who wakes up to high-fives. Or maybe they don’t remember it at all, and everyone thinks it’s funny. We need to broaden the discussion beyond sexual violence to a broader conversation about substance abuse and intoxication, depression, gender/misogyny, and sex.

  • daisy /Nebraska

    Over 40 yrs since on campus rape small college and still suffer from PTRD.
    Multiple guys and no memory of excessive drinking.
    I ended up leaving college and not graduating.

  • Quincy1982

    I was a victim of potential rape on my college campus. I went to this young man’s dorm room to do a homework assignment. I was sitting on his bed setting out my books. Next thing I knew, he was on top of me trying to rape me. I was able to talk my way out of it pretending I was interested, but maybe at a different time. I went to the nurse’s office to tell them what had happened and get help. She did not keep this issue confidential and the next day, everyone on campus knew what had happened and decided that the young man had done nothing wrong and that it was my fault for putting myself in a position where he could rape me. I ended up having to leave the school at the end of the semester and go somewhere else. If this happened to me, this can happen to other women out there. If we don’t feel safe to tell what has happened and cannot trust those at the school who are supposed to help to do the right thing by us, who are we going to turn to? I almost flunked a class because I was working on a partner final with this guy. I had to go to the professor and tell him what had happened to beg to be allowed to do my final as an individual. It was humiliating.

    • daisy /Nebraska

      mine was a visit to the dean of women. She was obviously shocked at my appearance as I did not fit the look she was expecting.
      I was a virgin and on my period at the time of rape.

  • Cindy

    I went to UNH in the 70′s. I was raped after a party when a stranger followed me back and entered my dorm room uninvited. There was no place to turn for help and of course, I felt shame because I had been drinking. Here it is 2011 and we’re just scratching the surface of the issue but I am glad that VP Biden has addressed it so forcefully and so passionately. I do think that there are aggressive men who use alcohol as an excuse for their criminal and perverted behavior.

    • daisy /Nebraska

      Shame and guilt yes yes yes. I also felt the victimization as word spread around campus that it happened.

  • Dave in CT

    Have those Yale guys with the anal chant had any consequence? May not be legal, but school wise?

  • Anonymous

    A shift to “hookup sex”? What’s going on is that a successful career requires more and more education. In other words, our bodies are ready for sexuality long before we actually are in this world. It’s not pornography. It’s a cultural shift to increased technology and increased requirements for being hired.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Anonymous

    I’m always suspicious when I hear someone say that the problem is “obviously” caused by the subject under discussion.

  • Julia

    18 years old is very young…. I have always been grateful that I attended a women’s college in those young years. I hope I can convince my daughter to do the same.

    • Eauhautebleu1980

      One of my adult female friends graduated from a prominent NE women’s college, and was subjected to the full court press to embrace lesbianism. Presented as a “political” position, of course: EVERY woman, in that college, was expected to be “politically lesbian”. This program was hyperbolic propaganda.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Look on the net under Japanese anime, subgroup hentai, subgroups yaoi and yuri. Apparently every teen is glued to those.

  • N.

    I completely agree with Dr. Dines assesment, as a women who went thru the US university system. My husband, who is not from America, has also commented on the immaturity of men in the US in his 40-something peer group.

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    Gail is WAY off base on Adam Sandler movies. In his movies his characters often start as an immature male, but they always grow into a mature male in a good relationship, and the male characters that don’t are portrayed as buffoons.

    • Anonymous

      Solving complex social problems is always easier when you blame the movies.

  • Jim Bob Backer

    I appreciate your guest’s assumptions that men are so daft that they use pornography as a foundation for developing relationships. Also, hook up culture? Do the 60’s ring a bell? Now that was a hookup culture.
    I won’t argue that many men are knuckle dragging monkeys, who are driven and guided by testosterone not intelligence.

    • Anonymous

      Assumption being the important word there. X is bad, so anyone who partakes of X must do bad things.

  • Sam

    During my four Syracuse years, ’64 to ’68, I was as horny as the next guy but it used to astound me hearing some of my buddies coming back to the dorm after “date-night.” Many would describe gloriously their “scores,” which as related, were nothing short of date-rape, a term that didn’t exist yet. Either through upbringing or just my own sensitivities, being a gentleman about the whole thing was my path. And, that worked very well for me. I still count my best women friends, carnal and non-carnal, from college and before marriage, as many of my best friends today. Some are among my wife’s best friends. But here’s the weird thing, and I’m sorry to say it, but a LOT of women seemed attracted to the tough guys, the “man’s man” types. Then and going forward in years, so many women I knew seemed to think they could “tame” such guys. “Fix them.” How many marriages have we all known that broke up because “…he changed. He became a jerk.” Well, usually they were jerks in the first place and the lady looked was attracted by the very macho characteristics that later became abusive.

    • Millfill

      When liberalism clashes with biology, it’s biology that wins.

  • DHG

    The current speaker’s description of “hook-up sex” is found on the campus where I work also. The young women sometimes view staff as “out of touch” when we tell them that some of this is rape.

    They are careful to be sure that no one puts “date rape drugs” in their drinks without realizing that alcohol is the most prominent date rape drug.

    It is difficult for anyone to come forward with a complaint because they are afraid of being ostracized on campus and vilified on social media for making that accusation. Developmentally, young adults are more concerned about fitting in and being accepted than about seeking justice.

    • Anonymous

      If you want to look at an objection report from the front lines about the hookup culture and the booze culture on US campuses today, and how the combustible mix they create, just google “Karen Owen F**k list” and read her Powerpoint rating the young men she hooked up with, usually after oceans of alcohol were consumed.

      At least one of those instances is clearly non-consensual, becuase Ms. Owen could not remember enough to rate her man of the evening! Yet Ms. Owen doesn’t think twice about that.

      The 2007 study behind the OCR policy found that at least 35% of the young women who had blackout sex didn’t think it was sexual assault.

      And, again, from David Lisak’s work it appears that a very small percentage of men, about 8% are serially committing 90% of the sexual assaults on campuses in this very manner.

    • Anonymous

      I meant “objective” report. Sorry for the typo.

  • CJ

    I spoke up recently about an incident of sexual harassment that took place when I was just starting my college major, decades ago. I did so, because it has been my experience that if something happened to me, it has probably happened to others. Some people were pleased, in the abstract, that I spoke out, but some were displeased, unless they finally accepted my speaking a truth — maybe it wasn’t their truth, but it was mine. Apparently, in contemporary times, the school had enacted Title IX protections of the young women who were still being harassed decades later by this same teacher, who is no longer there. In other words, Title IX is helping individuals. For me (& I expect for others) there were associated issues after the initial incident. Had I been able to trust this faculty member, he would have been one of the best for me to be able to go to for my academic growth. Sadly, I never went to him for academic help, because it would have been entering into the fire. I have been struggling to work out those academic deficiencies I needed help with for decades as well, but it would have been so much better, since I was in school to learn, if I had not had to avoid certain learning situations because the consequences were too great. Even belittling women for not being able to take “harassment” is part of the negative picture. When I spoke up, it was interesting to see how many women ridiculed me, saying, you couldn’t take THAT? What were you, a baby?! Apparently, I was not so very sophisticated, even though I was 21 years old.

  • Ren Knopf

    Whether on campus or off, until our society treats the “victim” as a victim and not the problem; until “no” no longer means “maybe” and until alcohol is no longer an excuse (how long has that been going on for so many things), this issue will not go away.
    Ren Knopf, Framingham, MA

  • Dgirvan

    This issue is not just about rape. But rather an attitude that can be seen in class rooms, dorms, coffee houses, and the sidewalk. Rape is the extreme demonstration of that attitude.
    The situation at Yale is particularly sad because it is an Ivy League institution. Such schools are the vehicle for tomorrow’s leaders. Is this really our best and brightest? Why don’t we hear from the young male students of virtue? Where are their numbers?

    • Dave in CT

      “The situation at Yale is particularly sad because it is an Ivy League institution. Such schools are the vehicle for tomorrow’s leaders. Is this really our best and brightest? ”

      Hmmmm. How did we get to where we are today?

  • Sam

    I can’t believe I haven’t heard anybody talk about the ways in which “male culture” is the main contributor to this problem. I’m male, age 62, lower socio-economic class in origin, I’ve been in the US Army. It took me YEARS to learn that sexual aggression by young males is not merely “bad” behavior–it is rape, it is wrong. As a young man, my peers all assumed it was OK to get all you could get from any woman/girl that you selected for your attention. I encountered this in my high school and military peers. The culture of young males must be addressed and high schools/colleges/universities need to take on the task of teaching young people, especially the males, that sexual exploitation is wrong!

  • Beth

    I just tuned in and as the mother of an 11-year old daughter, this is leaving me numb and nauseous. Why aren’t these young men being taught at a young age how to treat a woman? Where are the parents in the education of their young children? The schools? What is happening to the ethics and integrity of people in society these days?? Don’t people know right from wrong anymore?

    • CollegeGrad

      Why aren’t young women being taught at a young age how to not dress overly provocatively, discern between quality male friends and those who simply want something (tonight), and not to drink when you’re in a vulnerable position?

      • Geistprime

        Women who conduct themselves in the manner you mentioned still are raped. Therefore, your comment does not address the issue.

        Even when someone puts him/herself at risk of being injured physically or mentally, the perpetrator does not automatically get excused of the behavior.

        Using your thought-process, those who drive in a reasonable fashion and are hit by another driver cannot claim any damages because driving carries an inherent risk.

        The type of thinking you are using is part of the mentality that makes it difficult for women and men who are raped to get help.

  • skantia

    When my son was in 8th grade he kept complaining about the 7th grade girls pestering him. They would offer to perform certain acts and he would come home and ask me what they were. The school did nothing to stop the girls, the girls’ parents said “not my little girl”, eventually he stopped complaining and three years later he is still enjoying the fruits of the girls’ services. He does not have to use force, they offer it up but he has come to understand that this is his ‘right’. It is a huge problem and the middle schools and parents need to take this seriously.

  • Jen4roomie

    I wonder why do women go through the campus judicial systems rather then just call the local police?

    • Anonymous

      Often, on large campuses, the school has its own police force. I’m not sure what the jurisdiction would be, but it’s possible that the local police are the campus police.

  • Jen4roomie

    I wonder why do women go through the campus judicial systems rather then just call the local police?

  • Andrea

    Isn’t there something to be said about sexual liberation? While there are some serious issues here, this conversation can also be seen as an episode in America’s struggle with its Puritan heritage. The characterization of pornography and sexually active women here is rather one-sided. To see all sexualized women as victims is itself a sexist viewpoint.

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    Why, when both parties are drinking, is the onus entirely on the male to behave? The guest said that the male’s goal is getting the female drunk to lower resistance. Really? Even if the woman was already drinking? Is there no case where the woman got a guy drunk so he’d sleep with her when he normally wouldn’t?

    I’m not justifying rape in any way, but let’s not heap everything, every possibility, on the male just because he’s male?

    • KH

      no! the point is that study after study indicates that the perpetrators aren’t going out and getting drunk and oops, getting our of control. The perpetrators go out for the night in search of a “target” to get drunk and rape. And they repeat the behavior. The research shows they are no different than the “stranger in the bushes” rapist only they use alcohol and peer pressure instead of a knife or gun as their weapon. Please stop perpetuating this myth that it is accidental.

      • Scott B, Jamestown NY

        Those are predators, not people that are both drunk and not acting as they would in they were sober. Either could be the aggressor. It’s not possible that a woman goes to a bar has an extra appletini or two, finds a guy that’s had an extra beer or two, invites him back to her place and she jumps him and he’s not victim? That’s got a few words that end in “ist” going on there.

  • Andrew of RI

    I have to disagree on the subject of porn distorting mens’ views of women. I happen to be a college age male and utilize porn often, though I would never dream of committing sexual assault. The very idea of a none willing partner is sickening. I feel the problem is much more a result of the overall hookup culture. Is this a new problem on college campuses? I would like to know, since the over abundance of web based porn is relatively new. Additionally, with the wide diversity of pornography for every fetish or sexual fantasy, is porn really an influence, or is it more an expression of desire?

    • Scott B, Jamestown NY

      We’d do better as a society to explain that porn is fantasy, and not a representation of how people actually act. In fact you’ll find that statement in any porn mag, as well as films.

      Some people watching porn are going to get the wrong message, and that includes women. Remember, Charlie Manson also thought the Beatles “White Album” was written about him.

  • bsg

    The ready availability of porn on the internet is clearly adding to this culture on campus and in society as a whole. Prior to internet porn, people (mostly men) had to risk public scrutiny and shame by going out in public, purchasing movies in adult video/book stores or buying adult magazines behind the counter. Now anyone, including children, can find free FULL length porn movies on the internet – extremely explicit and hardcore – with the click of a mouse. It really is unprecedented and in my opinion, has really led to a coarsening of the culture and a big change in the dynamics of male-female relationships.

    • Anonymous

      So rape is a new thing? We’ve had rape for as long as there have been humans. Doesn’t that suggest that the link between pornography and rape isn’t valid?

      • KH

        I’m not sure she’s suggesting that pornography is what causes rape. Only that it is become increasingly mainstream to view women as nothing but a vessel for men’s sexuality. I don’t have a problem with pornography per se, but as a single woman I will vouch that many men do not seem to have the first clue about how to actually be sexual with a human woman. They just want to recreate demeaning acts they see in film. that can’t be good for any of us.

        • Scott B, Jamestown NY

          Watch the Penn & Teller “Bull$hit” clip I posted. She IS directly connecting porn to rape.

  • Kaymathew

    I would like to ask your speakers this morning to talk about: 1) violence against women/rape as spectacle (on college campuses) – and here I refer to the popular dance *game* called pasa pasa that simulates gang rape in a very violent form. As someone working at an event hall, I have seen Bentley College students do this – it is beyond lewd and lascivious and it reflects a deep seated, ingrained, twisted cultural attitude towards women. Here in pasa pasa, we see women (perhaps not) consenting to this terrible mime. It’s about rape as spectacle, no? Brought on by the compliance of college authorities and, the whole phenomenon of *male bonding* which has been discussed over the generations. Male bonding breeds violence. Simple. And all too often, violence against women. That is why fraternities are dangerous.

    • Kaymathew

      and ROTC.

  • Ben

    Just interested in a little more information about the statistics on perpetrators. It has been said that 1 in 5 female students will be sexually abused and that many perpetrators are repeat offenders. If each offender commits on average 5 offenses, that would imply that 1 in 25 college males is a repeat sexual offender. Is that the correct take away? Or is the average number of offense per repeat offender much higher meaning that the percentage of college males guilty of sexual offenses is lower? I would appreciate any potential clarification on this point.

    • Anonymous

      Ben, yes, the average number of offenses is higher.

      We all have to get out of our heads this crazy notion that every man is a rapist and instead understand that 90% of the rapes are committed by about 8% of the men, who do it again and again and again.

      Here is link to David Lisak’s work on the subject. He is highly respected on feminist blogs for his long time work in this field. He teaches and does research at UMass Boston.

      http://www.caribbeanpartnershipagainstsexualviolence.org/Undetected_Rapist.pdf

      The approach required by Department of Education Office of Civil Rights under their new, 4/4/11 pronouncement does no more to get at the true nature of the problem than the current “system”.

  • Dh001g

    I think it is much to easy on any rapist to blame porn culture. Any human who would rape another human being has some form of evil deep in their core. It takes more than exposure to misogynistic imagery to be that deeply flawed. The porn culture may mean that the community is not as quick condemn rape as they should be but I think placing the blame on the porn culture is another way to excuse abhorrent behavior. The individual is responsible and should be held responsible.

    • Anonymous

      I agree.

      Moreover, David Lisak’s work at UMass Boston found that of the minority of guys (8%) who were committing most (90%) of the sexual assaults, most (2/3 to 3/4 !!!) had serious child abuse backgrounds (as in they were physically and sexually assaulted as children, USUALLY BY WOMEN AMAZINGLY ENOUGH). They turned into “power rapists” and “rage rapists”. Yet as a culture we do everything possible to hide the substantial amount of child abuse committed by aunts, babysitters, female day care workers, 35 year old “Cougar” teachers, and even mothers. Yes, even mothers.

      We ALL have to take responsibility at every level to hear the victims, to acknowledge when we are all victims, to help victims, to do early intervention, and to punish severely when all of that does not work.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

    I am so tired of people pointing to porn or to violence in the media or video games or music or whatever as the reason for awful behavior. It also doesn’t jive with the statement that it’s a small number of repeat offenders responsible for the majority of sexual assault. Millions of men and women consume porn and don’t behave this way, just as millions of kids play video games and don’t shoot up their school. There’s no simple aha! cause. Keep the focus on the institutional problems that allow the criminals to get away with abuse time and time again, and that discourage women from speaking up or seeking redress.

  • Dave in CT

    Obviously some administrator heads have to roll.

    But of course when was the last time a leadership head rolled in the wake of wrongdoing in this country?

    Need that accountability show. Almost every day’s show comes down to it.

  • Ukumbwa

    We are responsible for changing the core assumptions and structures of this society so that women and men and children can all be safe and supported and heard. Any less is to sustain this tragedy and admit that this sort of violence is ok with us. that is not acceptable.

  • Mike W.

    When children don’t see a loving, respectful relationship between their mother and father (be aware I’m not saying step-mother or step-father), they’ll never learn the value of a relationship. With today’s culture of use and abuse and then throw away, it’s repeated in relationships when we have a divorce rate of 50% percent. Parent’s need to stop pointing the finger at institutions and they should start teaching their kids by being upstanding adults and parents, husbands, and wives.

  • Allie

    I simply cannot believe my ears! This discussion could be an old recording from the discussions that were going on while I was at Princeton 23 years ago! We had all these issues and had protests and lobbied the administration to change their handling of date rapes and harassment. Why haven’t we made any progress? This is appalling!

  • Peg

    I started college in 1981. Small SUNY campus in western NY. Two years later in autumn I moved into off-campus housing, next to a fraternity. New pledges in this fraternity were required to refer to their girlfriends as “pigs.” The guys were having an outdoor party for campus moving-in day and had hung a banner saying “Give Us Your Daughters.” Later that year I was in bed asleep and a guy from next door wandered into my apartment from the party on the first floor of my house (the girls who lived there had frequent parties that the frat guys attended). He said he was looking for the bathroom. I told him he had the wrong apartment (not sure who had left the door unlocked but I was alone, my 3 roommates were out). He apologized and then closed the door and walked over as if he was going to sit on the bed. I firmly told him he had to leave NOW. He finally left. I heard him talk to someone who was out in the hallway, who had apparently been waiting for him, and asked him “What are you doing, man?” The one who had walked into my room said, “Relax, man, I’ve gotten a lot of good f*cks that way.”

    So, yeah; this crap has been going on for a long time. That fraternity, BTW, was eventually closed down, and were at one point accused of gang raping a young woman at a frat party.

  • Steve L

    This is a particularly difficult problem. While this is, perhaps, a controversial concept, the fact is that sex is not illegal so determining, after the fact, whether a sexual crime has been committed might be based solely on one party’s claim; something that would rarely withstand legal scrutiny in other cases.
    If someone claims sexual assault, there is no way to determine whether the act was, in fact, not consentual (no matter what the state of sobriety).

    Physical battery or a shooting is less ambiguous because hitting or shooting someone is a crime whether “they wanted it” or not.

    The ambiguity in sexual encounters forces us to either automatically take the position that people are NOT deemed to be innocent until PROVEN guilty or to assume that the woman has NOT been raped until it is absolutely proven that she was. Currently, we are saying that “stupid” is illegal. This is a horrible choice but there is no middle ground.

    While we are teaching men that “No means No”, we must also, emphatically, teach women that “maybe” or “No after the fact” is a crime against men and women.

    All this makes rape an all the more horrific crime.

    No means No and there is never an excuse for rape or sexual assault, but we must focus on men AND women in teaching acceptable behavior. We must examine ALL facets of this problem and do whatever is necessary to establish safe environments without indicting the innocent men AND women.

    Steve in Nashville

    • daisy /Nebraska

      No means no and maybe means no…18 and 19 yr old’s vulnerable to hormones and women fight their physical response with the mind telling them No also. Men by pursing their own interest w/o consideration of the women situation is abuse. The young mans behavior is reinforced and the woman because silent with embarrassment and guilt.

      • Steve L

        Any time all the blame is placed on one, and only one, group, I am skeptical of the argument.

        It would, however, be nice if you would read before responding … I just said that women need to be educated with more than “No means No”, that they also have an understanding of the impact of and responsibility for their own actions.
        No one deserves to be a victim of crime, rape or otherwise, but we can all reduce the chance of being a victim if we are cognizant of the ramifications of our own actions.
        THAT is the point I am making; I am NOT suggesting that criminals aren’t fully at fault for the crimes, just that good decisions can reduce the probability of being a victim.

        However, to believe, in this one scenario, that we can say blame is always clear is terribly naive. To say that men are always the one’s who must, or can, make the right choice is admitting that the stereotype of women not being capable of making any but frivolous decisions is true; I reject this categorically.

        To think that women can NEVER be wrong, NEVER be viscous enough to make a false claim, and NEVER be responsible for anything when a man is involved is utterly stupid.

        The overwhelming majority of cases of claimed rape are legitimate, but we must never assume that absolutely all of them are. We have a constitution that preserves the right to be considered innocent until PROVEN guilty. Rape is very, very difficult to prove. Unfortunately, this means that many, many people are not convicted of a crime they committed.

        Benjamin Franklin said that if we give up our freedom in an effort to assure safety, we have neither. We can not make an exception to the presumption of innocence in this case.

        The fact is that rape is a crime and should be reported to the police, not a college or university. Universities are known to be protective their image, especially with respect to campus crime, so no crime should be reported only to a university; all crimes should be reported to the local police first, then the university. The victim should document any refusal of the locals to follow up.

        Ultimately, the move to eliminate sex education from middle and high schools has removed a great opportunity to teach both young men and young women the ramifications of decisions about sex.

        Steve in Nashville

  • Marketmaster610

    Recently one of our sons told me that he was worried about teaching his children to respect women. He said that when he was growing up he was getting messages pro-woman messages from the society at large as well as at home. His perception is that those messages are no longer coming from the society, and he and his wife are worried about being able to do it all themselves.

    One of my proudest moments as a mother of boys was when our college freshman rescued a woman who was drunk and being passed around at a party to be kissed and fondled. He asked her if she was OK with what was going on. When she said no, he took her to his room, made coffee, made her drink water, etc. and let her sleep there because he knew she wouldn’t be safe in her own room. It isn’t inevitable that young men are rapists, but it may be getting harder and harder to overcome the societal messages

  • Scott Milliken

    I would compare the DKE to todays KKK. And if I was a pledge, I would have told DKE they are not worth terrorizing and scaring women on the campus. “Joking” or not, it just plain was in bad taste and hardly what one would expect from a place like Yale. Perhaps if Yale wans to allow such behavior, they should no longer be considered ‘Ivy” League.

  • Heidinepveu

    I have to wonder if boys/men know what rape and sexual violence actually is. Especially given the pervasive societal perception that women are sexual objects and that porn and media present women as those objects, do men understand the difference between consensual sex and an act of violence/rape.

    • N.

      Often, some men, don’t. They see foreplay presented as a struggle in pop culture and that becomes part of their sexual repertoire. The rape fantasy is often diluted in mainstream movies and tv, but it remains apart of American media, especially in video games and in porn. I mean, really, look at the new movie, Sucker Punch; the whole thing is a twisted rape fantasy.

  • Ellen Dibble

    What state is the current caller calling from (Mike, at 10:55), where he says a woman cannot consent if she is drunk? As if she were an underage individual? I don’t think my state does that.

    • Ronda

      In MOST states, if a person is drunk they are deemed incapable of being able to give reasonable consent. It is like a 12 yr old not being able to give reasonable consent, or a mentally handicapped person . . . even if she(he) says “OK” while drunk, the person who has sex with them can be culpable.

      • CollegeGrad

        Twisted laws. Since the supposed victim was drunk, he/she cannot be held responsible for what they said or did?

        Great, let’s go drive drunk, whatever happens, we can’t be held responsible…right?

    • Ronda

      In MOST states, if a person is drunk they are deemed incapable of being able to give reasonable consent. It is like a 12 yr old not being able to give reasonable consent, or a mentally handicapped person . . . even if she(he) says “OK” while drunk, the person who has sex with them can be culpable.

  • Penguinshape

    What do today’s guests and other university administrators/faculty think about the old Antioch College approach of requiring specific consent by the woman for each and every step of a sexual encounter? This seemingly “unromantic” procedure is designed to avoid any possibility of miscommunication or misinterpretation.

    • Millfill

      Why don’t you put that in practice – or if you already have, let us know what were the results? That approach seems so stupid and totally impractical that it doesn’t even deserve any consideration. It seems to find the solution to one problem by making the pendulum swing to the other extreme (and not a practical one at that).

      • Penguinshape

        Here’s a key sentence from the summary of an article published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality in 2003. Doesn’t seem like the policy is too popular or practical – at least among students not at Antioch College.

        “The majority of participants evaluated the Antioch policy unfavorably, stating problems with enforcement, practicality and personal endorsement.”

        • Millfill

          Well, that (re: practicality) was quite obvious.

  • Dab200

    HYPOCRISY is the problem. Double standards for men as opposed to women is the problem. Preaching family values when one does not observe any is a problem.
    Absurd censorship in TV is a problem: I once watched a program on TV when a doctor was showing women how to examine their breasts using a manikin and its nipples were blurred!!!!!! This culture of suppression of natural aspect of human sexuality leads to such behaviours like rape.

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    Penn & Teller’s “Bull$hit” pretty much take Gail Dines to task and show lots of her “facts” are just assumptions of hers, with little to no facts to back them up.

    I’ve always been the sober one (I don’t drink) and had to put off the aggressive advances of a drunk female because I didn’t want anything to get twisted around when she was sober.

    • Dan

      Do you have a link to the Penn & Teller episode you’re talking about?

      • Scott B, Jamestown NY

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDYZOaTaK2A&feature=related

        Some nude content has been censored for YouTube, but it’s all there.

        There seem to be this thought that men watch porn, get all excited, and go rape. I don’t know about those guys, but for me I watch porn, have some “alone time” and I need a nap.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408098372 Mari McAvenia

    “If 1 in 5 laptops were stolen on campus….” Good point!

    When personal property is stolen or intentionally damaged by another student it is treated like a crime. When a female student is raped it is swept under the rug. Why is this?

    Look, every woman I’ve ever asked (some 50 or so) have said that they were sexually assaulted at some point in their lives (usually while they were very young). Every man I have ever asked (“did you ever sexually assault anybody?”) have said no, very firmly and with excessive defensiveness. Why is this?

    Is one elusive man running around raping ALL these young women?
    I think not. Men never admit to committing the crime of rape.

  • Anonymous

    Mike’s call does raise the question of what standards of evidence we use. Rape is wrong–no question–but we also don’t want accusation to equal conviction.

    • Mike

      I was hoping they would have given me a chance to explain what evidence I had to provide to clear my name and how much it cost me out of pocket to prove my innocence.

      • CollegeGrad

        Definition is the problem.

        With this issue in particular, a “1 in 100″ statistic can easily be turned into a “1 in 5″ statistic by making slight definitional changes to the word “rape”. From personal experience and friendships, aggressive feminists don’t mind doing so.

  • Julia B.

    No time to read other comments — was in car. I agree with Gail Dines re: porn, but think until the huuuuuuge epidemic of alcohol abuse is addressed, even education won’t help. Excessive drinking on campus is just as accepted as porn in our culture. It shouldn’t be.

  • Jen

    I attended Brigham Young University…home of the oft-ridiculed Honor Code. But it was that very Honor Code that kept me safe from so many of the issues discussed in this program.

    • ThresherK

      Like most folks, when that basketball player was dismissed for having consensual relations was when I learned of the BYU honor code.

      It’d be great for someone there to shed light on the genesis of that code.

      Thanks.

      • Jen

        You can read the full text of BYU’s Honor Code at https://honorcode.byu.edu/

        You won’t find co-ed dorms at BYU, nor will you see alcohol allowed. Those are two factors that help keep the campus community safe, no question.

        I’m not going to put my head in the sand and state unequivocally that sexual assault does not happen at BYU, but the university goes out of its way to set standards to prevent it.

        • Millfill

          But..but…but…that is tainted with religion, and that too with a variant of the evil, evil Christianity. How can we liberals ever admit in public that any good can come out of a religion, when our very raison d’être is to be anti-religion (and one religion at that)? It’s free love and free sex all the way baby!!

      • Jen

        You can read the full text of BYU’s Honor Code at https://honorcode.byu.edu/

        You won’t find co-ed dorms at BYU, nor will you see alcohol allowed. Those are two factors that help keep the campus community safe, no question.

        I’m not going to put my head in the sand and state unequivocally that sexual assault does not happen at BYU, but the university goes out of its way to set standards to prevent it.

  • Brian

    I teach in a Massachusetts University and I have, on occasion, been approached by young women who have had some terrible sexual assault/rape situation happen to them. They seem to mostly wish to let someone else know. I advise them to report the incident, but they alway refuse. Now since I know what might lie ahead for them – accusations, being ignored or rebuffed, etc., I can’t find it in me to insist they come forward.
    PLEASE tell me what you and your guest think I should do for my students??

    • Eboogma

      A good idea would be for the university to track accusations. Women who don’t want to prosecute could at least register a complaint. The university could also track the accusers. Both accused and accusers could be checked for patterns.

  • Dave in CT

    I like the math of a few less frat boys in exchange for less assaulted girls. So IMO the policies in the tricky “He said, She said” needs to be tilted in the female favor.

    Sorry guys, need to steer clear if don’t want trouble.

    • Anonymous

      J’accuse! means proof? That has some legal difficulties, no?

      • Dave in CT

        I don’t know if school policies have the same requirements as criminal court.

        In this case, I would live with a few wrongly accused (not with 0 evidence, but with prepoderance of evidence), for the benefit of justice to many women, and accountability to many men, rather then just never act, and tilting things way in favor of the guys.

        If this leads to men being very wary and clear about how they behave with women in college, then it served its purpose.

        Not acting for fear of being wrong overwhelmingly favors the guys. I really doubt a vast majority of cases are just made up.

        If the “greyness” of this topic leads inevitably to favoring one party or the other, I would chose to favor the women. They are overwhelmingly the victims and I think most reasonable people would agree need more protection from men, than men from women.

        • Anonymous

          Our legal system favors the accused, or at least it’s supposed to do so. I’d hope that college judicial systems are the same.

  • bsg

    Also, porn has become much more hardcore and degrading to women, in my opinion (I’m female), having compared porn from the 80s and 90s to the current porn movies on the internet. When I was young, boys in the neighborhood used to smuggle Playboy and Penthouse magazines into their huts or tree houses. This seems so innocent compared to the images from internet porn that young boys are exposed to today. There is no doubt in my mind that this can shape and distort their views about their own sexuality and women as they develop into young men. And as the speaker is saying, certainly young women are influenced by the porn culture. It really is a sad state of affairs and I feel badly for the young people growing up in this environment and being assaulted by sexual images everywhere.

  • Jimbo

    NO NO NO – it’s not porn that is raping college students, look around, everyone watches porn – not everyone is a rapist.
    It’s people growing up being told they can have what ever they want when they want it, feed by a maladaptive – get it now – mentality.

    • Stillin

      I don’t watch or support porn, I think it ruins, what can be a beautiful thing. So your sentence about everyone watches porn, no.

  • Ellen Dibble

    The commenter who said that women go for the guys who seem to him like the likely abusers makes me think of a lot of women. They think a woman is supposed to shut up and think of England, that sort of thing. They regard rape within a relationship as just deserts (um, desserts?, get me a better word…). There are Battered Women’s Resources that try to teach women that healthier relationships do not involve domestic violence.

  • jh

    I have some strong suspicions about Gail Dines’ work based on the reviews of seen of it (and what I’ve seen of sociological work on the Porn/Violence connection that was drawn by research in the 80s). Most of what I have seen (and descriptions of her research as well) are incredibly poorly done from a methodological standpoint. Several of her statements this morning frankly strain credulity. Everything is anecdotal, no actual empircal evidence. Ahn and Edwards seem very on top of things, by contrast.

  • PC

    Tom Ashbrook asked what the problem is. The root cause lies in the fact that there is a general moral decadence of this nation. A good example of this shift is in the recent media attention to BYU’s suspension of the a basketball player over violating the honor code. The media quickly paints a picture of the school as a backward thinking, old fashion institution for upholding abstinence and wholesome standards in college. When you have a culture that is so readily to jump to attack and tease a conservative based college such as BYU, I’m not surprised women college students are standing up everywhere to protest on this subject. I think Gail Dines hits it right on the nose with the influence of porn. It is an addictive substance and it has a terrible grip on this downward spiral of this moral decadence as I have mentioned. If you want to address the problem, then address it at the root cause; revert this moral decadence. Where to start? How about at the family.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Couldn’t some form of porn be morally helpful? As in, letting kids find out something about sex without having to compromise anybody’s body?

      • Scott B, Jamestown NY

        Some people are going to find porn addictive, some are not. The people that find it addictive are probably staying at home taking things into their own hands, rather than going out and finding someone to rape.

        There’s quite a bit of “women oriented” porn out there. It’s written, directed, produced, and for women. There’s also a lot of “how to” videos aimed at women, men,and couples that’s explicit and informative.

        There are many sex acts in the Bible. Some is in praise of a woman’s body, but most isn’t. Bestiality, rape, incest, it’s all there. I don’t see anyone going on about how the Bible is making men commit rape, and the Bible is one of the most read books in the world. and far more accessible to more people than porn.

  • Rachel

    Messages seem to be so conflicting these days for all young men and women on college campuses. While Dr. Dines suggests pornography and the “hook up” are to blame for sexual hostility, massive demonstrations such as “SlutWalk”, promote the idea that “being a slut (i.e multiple sexual partners) is not necessarily bad”. Each are fighting against the same sexual hostility, but going about it in different ways. Unfortunately, these campaigns address the issues after the culture has been formed, leaving college campuses/administrators to weed through the messaging. On a college campus, everyone deserves to be safe, women and men. But, the values must be instilled in the students before they arrive freshman year.

  • Stillin

    They sweep it and sweep it and they continue to sweep. I myself, at 45 years old, got involved in a situation, where, sexual misconduct was committed.Iit wasn’t rape, but I was told by a professor,he, “let me live” and “they can scrape the dna off your jeans”…now, this was from a Caribbean Professor. It was because I told, I was seduced by this professor regardless of how anybody else sees it, even readers. This was a manipulation and a play which involved grooming for about 18 months, as in, here, take this cd, and here, here’s a book I know you’ll like, and here, here’s some artwork and on and on…and yes would I want to be a guest speaker? Sure. And on and on, until the play was made and I was involved with him. Never in my 25 years of marriage would I have ever thought this would happen. In the end, it did. When I spoke with a professional counselor about this, and saw what it really was, how I had been played into this…I was outraged that the UNIVERSITY was employing this guy, and he was having a field day with women. Even my best friend, who works at the university, got played by him. I was not the only one. I do not, in any way, mean to compare this to rape, or sexual assault, but people need to know, on the campus’s it is going on. This professor, has no business being employed by the university, nor working, living in the U.S. as far as I am concerned. According to the same counselor I saw about this, he is still getting away with it. I tried, with her help, to take him down since HIS behavior, as a superior, IS misconduct. After hearings with NYS Ed. dept, and the university, he got a slap on the wrist. And me? I got branded during these proceedings as ” you knew what you were getting into…you’re not YOUNG…no, but I was naive and I was lonely, and seperated. I am not proud of what happened, nor ashamed. I am still reeling from it years later. I hope to help anyone who has had this experience, it was scarring. Trust has gone out the window and never returned.

  • Mike

    Men and women are equally responsible.

    We all make decisions and use judgement.

    Gender bias is not useful.

    • N.

      FAIL.

    • Dave in CT

      Would you use that argument if big bubba got the scruff of your neck in the prison shower? Or were you asking for it because you didn’t give him enough cigarettes and have a pretty smile?

      Basic power dynamics and expectations of the environment often make the situation far from equal.

      I’m sure wardens don’t crack down because it keeps the deterrent aspect of prison alive and well….

      Why college administrators don’t crack down?…… I guess they don’t want to lose all that ivy league tuition? Or maintain the image of a great hookup school to cynically attract students?

      Once there is clear and strong accountability for breaking the law/code of ethics, then we’ll have a chance of being equally responsible IMO.

      • Michael

        hyperbolic Languages,

        wheres the concern for men who were vitcimized by fat/ugly women after drinking alittle too much?

        • Scott B, Jamestown NY

          That’s a perfectly valid point, folks. Seen it happen more than occasionally.

    • nj

      Where’s the “Dislike” button on this thing?

  • Jim

    the sex offender registry does not clarify a foolish college student from a repeat child molester. Of course police are more cautious to ruin the lives of these young men

    • Scott B, Jamestown NY

      There is no country-wide classification of sex offenders. Some state differentiate between something like public exposure and some don’t. There are people that are “sex offenders” that were only, say, caught taking a leak by a prude when they thought they had some reasonable assumption of privacy. One state might consider them a low level “sex offender”, while the next one over puts everyone in the same category as a serial rapist.

      There also seems to be a bias towards women crying rape. I have a friend that did hard time because of alleged rape. But after his accuser did this several times over the next few years, the following cases were given increasingly lighter sentences. Eventually she was discredited, it being shown she was doing this to be vindictive and in some cases just to rouse trouble for her amusement. My friend’s conviction was never overturned, or even reviewed, and he did his full stretch in maximum security prisons because he would not take a deal, insisting on his innocence.

      Where was the caution?

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    Meese Commission under Reagan, and Ashcroft under GW Bush, couldn’t find any connections from porn to what was being touted as fact on today’s show.

    I’m deeply disappointed in the show today. While I agree that “Rape is rape is rape”, there was no objective opinion presented beyond the last caller.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/JQSIJJG772O4AY7BQM5ZCH2PB4 Jim

      I would be happy to speak out about this more. Experts on the subject tend to be extraordinarily biased.

    • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/JQSIJJG772O4AY7BQM5ZCH2PB4 Jim

      I would be happy to speak out about this more. Experts on the subject tend to be extraordinarily biased.

  • greg

    I’m all for the prevention of rape…but what’s up with the woman obsessed with porn? (She “studies” porn…)

    Blaming porn for rape is like blaming action movies for violence. Does she think that people can’t tell the difference between fantasy and reality, and that we should ban all books, movies and video games? How far do we need to go to protect ourselves from ourselves?

    It doesn’t matter what I read, watch or play…I’m not a violent person. Let’s look for the real reasons behind violence. Blaming something that she personally has a problem with doesn’t really help solve the issue.

    • http://twitter.com/musoleK Musolĕ K

      Actually, she’s not implying that porn is to blame, not entirely but, it does contribute because sex is an activity that requires not ammo, or weaponry per se. Violence, forced sex (physically or with use of drugs or alcohol is glorified in porn; some of these perps “learn” the ways of a rapist or insensitivity from the porn that they watch. This coupled with their high sexual energy, immaturity and disease to make a name for themselves among their equally depraved friends, makes for a bad nut, to put it mildly. Of course, this is not what happens to everyone as some rapists/perps are just sick to begin with.

  • Jordan

    Dines’s shrill denouncement of pornography greatly detracts from the real issues at work here. Unlike Edwards, who backed up her claims with real data, Dines could only recall her own anecdotal evidence, which seems to favor the extreme over the larger, more “normal” issues on campuses nationwide. Dines poorly reflects on the issue of sexual violence on campus, and on feminism as a whole.

  • K Vorbeck Williams

    Unfortunately I couldn’t listen to the whole show but one point was not covered in my hearing. Young women need to understand the danger they put themselves in by going to young men’s bedrooms and by drinking to excess in the company of men. I went to college in the late 1950s when the dorms were segregated by sex, when the housemother smelled your breath when you came in from a date, when “man in the hall” was shouted from room to room. Even with all those precautions women were date raped. My mother who went to school in the 1930s was date raped. The saying, “boys will be boys,” is true and modern young women should know that and behave accordingly.

  • K Vorbeck Williams

    Unfortunately I couldn’t listen to the whole show but one point was not covered in my hearing. Young women need to understand the danger they put themselves in by going to young men’s bedrooms and by drinking to excess in the company of men. I went to college in the late 1950s when the dorms were segregated by sex, when the housemother smelled your breath when you came in from a date, when “man in the hall” was shouted from room to room. Even with all those precautions women were date raped. My mother who went to school in the 1930s was date raped. The saying, “boys will be boys,” is true and modern young women should know that and behave accordingly.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Maybe the experiences you relate predated “the pill,” and women felt liberated to share their bodies, their selves a bit more when there was virtually no risk of pregnancy, and the consequences of syphilis and gonorrhea were seen as treatable, and the threats of herpes and AIDS and so on were not at large. The values and morals that said women had to be innocent and inexperienced were beginning to be undone by the fact one could be somewhat experienced and maybe better able to choose a mate responsibly.
      But the preservation of virginity was less an issue once the whole biology of the situation was understood and controlled.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Maybe the experiences you relate predated “the pill,” and women felt liberated to share their bodies, their selves a bit more when there was virtually no risk of pregnancy, and the consequences of syphilis and gonorrhea were seen as treatable, and the threats of herpes and AIDS and so on were not at large. The values and morals that said women had to be innocent and inexperienced were beginning to be undone by the fact one could be somewhat experienced and maybe better able to choose a mate responsibly.
      But the preservation of virginity was less an issue once the whole biology of the situation was understood and controlled.

    • Eboogma

      That line of thinking allows men to restrict the behaviour of women through the threat of violence. It is not dissimilar from asking women to wear burqas. “Boys will be boys” takes the blame for rape and places it squarely on the backs of the victims.

  • ClemsonU1997

    Males are a only a tiny fraction of the victims campus perps, but it was sad to hear both Dorothy Edwards and Dr. Gail Dines speak only in terms of female victims and male perps.

    “Sweep under rug” for male victims? Hell, they did not even bother with a “sweep” that would have required some effort.

    • Anonymous

      Sad but true, ClemsonU1997.

      The 2007 study used for the Dept. of Ed 4/4/11 change in the rules for all Universities was astounded to find that 6% of men on campus were being sexually assaulted. But the 2007 study only bothered to collect enough data about women to drill into the data to understand context, perpetrators, etc. It is almost as if the 2007 study assumed that men could only be perpetrators and women could only be victims. The 2007 study spends only 2.5 pages on their male data, out of about 100 pages total. And apparently in the 4 years since then nobody has bothered to do the research to get additional data on male victims. That is how much of an afterthought the male victims side of the situation is.

      Yet men are more than 1 out of 5 of the victims (6.1% of men are victimized and 19% of women are victimized according to the 2007 study). Who cares? Man up. Suck it up. Grow a pair. Don’t cry. Don’t have feelings.

      BTW, a late-1990s study that asked college women about various sexual behaviors found that 9% of college women self-reported to having used weapons to force a man to have sex. So I suspect that not all of the male victims are man-on-man sexual assault.

  • ClemsonU1997

    Males are a only a tiny fraction of the victims campus perps, but it was sad to hear both Dorothy Edwards and Dr. Gail Dines speak only in terms of female victims and male perps.

    “Sweep under rug” for male victims? Hell, they did not even bother with a “sweep” that would have required some effort.

  • i scribe a diatribe

    Every American needs to clean up his/her act; we’re increasingly becoming a loud, lewd, crude society that views deceny and kindness as weakness. Gail Dines makes many valid points regarding pornography and the media’s message to women that the sluttier you behave, the more attractive you are. Many aspects of our culture lead to this crime: drinking, sex with strangers, confusion about what sex is (some think oral isn’t sex). Girls gone wild and America’s going rancid.

  • i scribe a diatribe

    Every American needs to clean up his/her act; we’re increasingly becoming a loud, lewd, crude society that views deceny and kindness as weakness. Gail Dines makes many valid points regarding pornography and the media’s message to women that the sluttier you behave, the more attractive you are. Many aspects of our culture lead to this crime: drinking, sex with strangers, confusion about what sex is (some think oral isn’t sex). Girls gone wild and America’s going rancid.

  • BSC

    One repeatedly hears the statistic that one in four college women will be the subject of an attempted sexual assault and that a very high percentage of these attempts actually do result in rape. Yet how can anything like such a number be true? Even in this country’s most violent cities, all general crimes of violence lumped together (murder, aggravated assault, armed crimes, rape, etc.) generally run under 2% per year.

    Granted that college males fit a younger, and therefore potentially higher offending, demographic, and granted that the close proximity of living arrangements and the “party culture” of university life might make for a higher incident of rapes, and also granted that some victims are understandably reluctant to report sexual assault–still, granted all these factors, how can one believe the one in four figure, when the figure for all of society is but a miniscule fraction of this claim?

    While today’s conversation is worth having, and while universities should do all in their power to prevent sexual assault and to help those who have been victimized by it, I think some perspective should be brought to one of the major claims that one hears every time this topic is discussed (the one in four college women has been cited on numerous WBUR programs in the last 12 months). We’ve been down the road of bogus victim statistics cooked up by advocacy groups before. We should try to come to grips with the problem as it actually is, not as it is exaggerated to be.

  • Anonymous

    Attached is a link to a very approachable Powerpoint presentation by David Lisak about what the data shows and the kind of approach necessary to get at the adult perpetrator stage of the problem (when it is already too late to deal with the perpetrator as a child abuse victim):

    http://www.caribbeanpartnershipagainstsexualviolence.org/Undetected_Rapist.pdf

    Well worth reading. And Tom, maybe you should have him on.

    BTW, he (with Greg LeMond among others) have also done wonderful, compassionate work around male victims of child abuse. (Because 2/3 of male child abuse victims do NOT go on to become perpetrators, but 1/3 do and both need help, while we need protection from the latter group.)

    See http://www.1in6.org for resources if you are a guy who has been abused as a child or teenageer, whether by a man or a woman.

  • ThresherK
  • Rg

    If you are RAPED, call the police. anything other than that is crazy. If you feel violated or cheated in some other way talk to the school. Any school that tries to covers up a rape is an accessory to the rape. And certainly is liable for the next crime the predator commits.
    We call so many interactions rape now that we have forgotten what real violent rape is. If you were afraid, for yourself or someone else, of being brutalized or killed unless you submitted then you were raped. Come up with a different word for anything else.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1408098372 Mari McAvenia

      When I was raped I didn’t have to call the police. My father was a policeman. I reported to my mother, she reported to my father, he called in his fellow policemen and…..nothing ever happened to the perpetrator.

      I, however, was handcuffed, pistol whipped and accused of every sort of promiscuous behavior by my parents. I had been a virgin (just turned 15 years old) until my rapist strangled me, threatened me with death and claimed that nobody would ever believe me, anyway, if I told the truth about what he was doing. He was a serial rapist, by the way, who targeted very young, immature females in our small town and he got away with it for years. I met one of his other victims a few years after he attacked me. She had never told anybody else until we discussed it together.

      Do not assume that police will help rape victims. Sometimes they are sadistic rapists, themselves, or else close relatives & friends with other men who rape. Rape is a deeply rooted, systemic problem throughout our society. Most men do not seem to want to change this destructive pattern. Obviously, it works quite well for them. For female rape victims? Not very well at all.

      • Peg

        Thank you for sharing your experience, Mari. I am sorry to hear you were victimized at such a young age and I hope you have found healing. You sound like a self-aware and strong woman.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I am trying to think of the police and attorneys and judges addressing cases of nonconsensual sex. Actually, I don’t have to imagine much because I have been transcribing court cases for 20 years. But consider the woman who does not bring the case to court because the knife-wielding offender was drunk at the time and would probably say that he had the knife for self-defense (not from the victim but another ongoing matter) and was unlikely to wield it because of his condition. I mean, the he said/she saids become very unwieldy in many cases very fast, and if one starts to unwrap the situation it can become apparent the woman is trying to outmanipulate the man just about as much as the man is trying to outmaneuver her. Huge senses of mistreatment and injustice can be screaming on both sides.
      It would not surprise me if police developed sort of profiles of certain individuals such that they tend to “believe” or credit the position of certain people and not others, and the immediate case at issue is addressed with a huge bias. Without that, the “wisdom of Solomon” barely suffices. A victim in a hospital ER, waiting for a rape kit to be performed, with triage favoring those whose life is in danger, can face a several hours wait, as I understand it, with the woman feeling defiled, and possibly in fact being inseminated or contaminated by her uncleanliness while she waits, if you know what I mean. I’m not a nurse, but I can imagine.

  • Jill

    I think looking at the problem from the serial rapist perspective is illuminating. I think some men fear they are going to be wrongly labeled a rapist somehow, which is absured. If you don’t commit rape, you have about as little of a chance of being charged with rape as I, a woman, do. I knew a man in college who committed questionable sexual acts against several women. Years later I learned that he was still committing crimes against women and that he had basically been driven out of the town he was living in at the time due to his conduct. During the good ole college days no one thought much of anything about his behavior because of the perception that drinking and slutty girls are the cause of rape. It’s simply not true. Men who will rape a woman who is drunk will continue behaving the same way for as long as they can. It’s a serious crime and should be treated as one.

  • Robert Riversong

    The gender bias in discussions about rape is always evident. Society, we are told, demands that women be sexy to be visible and that men indulge in pornography – both women and men on campus feel peer pressure to party, drink and “hook up”. Such inebriated hookups may leave both parties feeling regretful in the morning, but the man is legally a rapist and ethically a monster while the woman is a powerless victim deserving of our sympathy and support.

    What this equation does is remove prior personal responsibility from both parties (society makes behavioral demands to which we have no choice but to comply), but imposes 100% after-the-fact legal responsibility on the man and denies the woman her personal agency. In other words, it makes both into victims but punishes only one. And this is called justice.

    • Lily

      Wow, so many bad ideas in such a short post. People do have a choice about their behavior. No one needs to comply with societal expectations. No one is forced to watch porn. No one is forced to act out in real life what they see in a porn movie. Unfortunately, women are the victims of sexual violence and men are the perpetrators of it. The issue is not that you hook up and regret it afterwards. That, while perhaps a symptom of bad judgment, is consensual. Only in the twisted world you seem to live in is personal responsibility removed from the equation. And yes, in cases where on person says “No” and the other does not respect that choice, that latter person is a criminal, and the first one is a victim. Part of this is that women have to live with the consequences of rape (such as getting pregnant, having to live with the degrading memory, the risk of getting stigmatized if they come forward, etc.) potentially for the rest of their lives. It is only fair if the consequences of their actions pulls men into this, very realistic equation.

      • Robert Riversong

        Lily,

        You are confused and misinformed on many things. I am making a case FOR personal responsibily – on the part of both parties who choose to drink and hook up sexually. The law, however, does not require a woman to say “no” for an encounter to be prosecuted as rape, only that she be intoxicated – even if she initiated the sexual encounter.

        Men and women, by the way, are both victims of authentic sexual violence: male-on-male, female-on-female, female-on-male as well as the only kind that you’re willing to consider male-on-female.

        And you fail to consider that men have to live with a charge of rape, whether true or false, for the rest of their lives, be registered as a “sex offender”, be ostracized from the community, be unable to secure work or housing, and be treated as a monster.

    • Incarau

      Men and women are equal, so both should abstain from sex before marriage. You want to have sex, GET MARRIED!! and take responsibility that comes with sex.

  • Michael

    As expected, No accountablity on the part of women and all the blame are on men. Drinking yourself blind seems not to be a bright idea male or female. But it’s still amazing how if a male drinks till he blacks out he should be fully held responsable for all or any actions but a female shouldn’t. There are/is many other factors that tom’s guests did not address at all.

    Equality right?

    • nj

      So, it’s okay to abuse a woman because she’s drunk? What the hell are you saying? Just another way of blaming the victim.

      Sick.

      • Michael

        of course not,

        go on being Intellectually dishonest and all men are bad and all women are innocent victims no in between or other factors.

    • Stefanie

      In a civilized society laws protect people regardless of whether they are old, young, smart, mentally incompetent, of poor judgment, or–yes–drunk. We condone the mugger who goes after an elderly person as an “easy” target” and we should also condone a rapist who goes after a vulnerable target–a drunk person. Yes, people should do what they can to protect themselves from harm but our laws are here to protect all of us, regardless of whether we are able to look after ourselves or not.

      • Stefanie

        Please replace “condone” with “condemn” in my post!

    • Lily

      The only accountability a woman has is when she insists on having sex and the guy says no. I think that is a different issue though, although, of course, men can be raped too. However, maybe you are not clear about what rape means. If one person says no (male or female), but the other person (male or female) insists and forces themselves on the person saying no, that is rape. In the cases this show was about women were saying no and men were not respecting that.

  • Bluesnpolitics

    I’m a little upset with this show. This a very important topic, and yet very little thought was put into supporting the “facts”. I don’t know enough about the topic to say what is true and what is not true, but I can only imagine that stating that we have a higher rate of rape now is conjecture. It is easier (not easy, but easier) for a woman to come forward and say that she was raped now than it was thirty years ago. Of course it 1 in 4 is horrible whether the rate is rising or not, but knowing the facts helps to address the causes.

    Prof. Dines says that boys are not born as rapists, but rather taught by porn to be sexually deviant. Again, I don’t know whether this is true or untrue, but humans are not the only animals that rape, but we are the only ones with porn. Before spending time fighting porn to stop rape (like fighting alcohol to stop domestic abuse), perhaps we should be certain that it isn’t a deeper problem.

    I cannot claim that either of the guests are correct or incorrect in their statements, but after listening to most of the show (I missed the first 15 min.), I am not convinced that they can support their claims. Issues as important as this deserve better evidence. Thank you for the show; please post more information.

  • union member

    Sexual assault is a serious crime is a CRIME and should be tried in a criminal court, not a university disciplinary setting. Too many people are getting the crime confused with bad or crude behavior. Alcohol abuse and general permissiveness in parietals( ha ha many ask what are those) put young men and women in dangerous situations. Most of the incidents might be wrong but not all are criminal. Ask a person what did they expect to happen with a mixture of young men and women, alcohol consumption, highly sexualized society.
    I may sound like an old fashioned prude but I do believe in the prudish times, this was a far lesser problem.
    Unfortunatly this has been all but drowned out and people actually think that running to the courts will stop this behavior.
    Fat chance.

  • Robert Riversong

    The 2% false rape report statistic that was cited comes from Susan Brownmiller’s Against Our Will, and was sourced from a comment by an appellate judge to the NY Bar Association, but has no credible scientific basis. http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaRefute.html

    The FBI statistics show a 15% rate of false forcible rape reporting and college campus and other focused studies show false reporting in the 50% range.
    http://www.anandaanswers.com/pages/naaFalse.html

    Common reasons given by women who falsely accused rape were “spite or revenge,” and to compensate for feelings of guilt or shame. Source: Forensic Science Digest, vol. 11. no. 4, December 1985.

    False accusers were motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge in the study by Eugene J. Kanin. Source: Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 23, No. 1, 1994. Kanin was once well known and lauded by the feminist movement for his groundbreaking research on male sexual aggression.

    Warren Farrell, in The Myth of Male Power, who detailed the numerous ways that data was ignored, distorted or misused and laws were heavily biased against men, was consequently ostracized from the feminist community after being the only man to serve three terms on the Board of the National Organization for Women.

  • ThresherK

    (Okay, I keep trying to link this and it gets scrubbed after the fact:)

    This is interesting especially because it is open-ended.

    “For men at the lower end of the sexual aggression range, there was either no difference or only small changes in their sexual aggression due to porn use. However, for men at the level of moderate or high risk for sexual aggression, there was a correlation between more porn use and increased sexual aggression.”

    This does seem to line up with the repeat offender statistics offered during the program, and how most people who consume porn can’t imagine it being something that correlates to sexual crimes by others, because they don’t have those aggressive tendencies.

    (http://www.charlieglickman.com/2010/06/the-bothand-of-the-porn-wars/)

  • Scott B, Jamestown NY

    The Puritans weren’t all that puritanical. They had their own version of Las Vegas, the Salem Witch Trial was more about a land grab and social and political scheming than witches, and they had to have a special committee made to track down deadbeat fathers that skipped out on their women and kids.

  • Ben

    Makes alot of sense. College is a training ground. First Yale frat brats practice raping women, then they become congressmen, CEOs, & Presidents of the USA so they can rape on a much larger scale… Why should Yale crack down on behavior that will be rewarded once they graduate to the world of finance and politics? Shouldn’t college prepare people for the real world?

    /sarcasm

  • Anonymous

    everyone knows fraternity’s are dens of gang-raping non-students who never pick up a book

  • Anonymous

    perhaps we should address the fraternities and abolish them.

  • Incarau

    These are the consequences of the low moral of parents, and teachers at schools were it used to be more respect. When, the government take prayer out of schools and Universities, when parents both work and let their children watch TV alone, while they are working. What do you expect?, Teacher and students alike watching pornography. When priests have giving the bad example for centuries, Lots of people look at sex like something totally normal as animals, instead of giving the “Sacred Nature” of having sex within legally married couples. Jesus Christ and other ancient prophets warned innumerable times. about having sex out of wedlock. HE considered like Murder, a crime very clear and grave. That lately has changed. The People of The World had make it worst and saying: is Okay! This is an EVIL influence. “27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,”THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY: 28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Mat 5:27-28). “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body” ” What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 6:18-19)

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      I expect people to behave decently regardless of religion or lack thereof. If you think Christians have a monopoly on morality then you’re fooling yourself. Sex is totally normal and human beings are animals, and neither of those facts are any justification for rape or sexual assault. (And Darwinism doesn’t lead to Hitler, Ben Stein’s beliefs notwithstanding.) There’s nothing wrong with having sex, even out of wedlock. The issue is not consenting adults engaging in whatsoever sort of sexual behavior they mutually want. The issue is rape, abuse, and disrespect, and that has nothing to do with religion.

      • Michele

        It also has nothing to do with sex. Rape is not about sex it is an act of domination and means or mechanism to deliver pain, humiliation and domination based on the perpetrator’s own issues. It is not an act of an uncontrollable sexual appetite.

        • NYC Female

          I think your comment is probably the most truthful and relevant of all. Sadly, the opinions of the radio guest(s) falsely mixed the issues of sexual desire and rape.

  • mom of a boy and a girl

    Only half of the story being told – young girls are just as sexualized as young men today – all in the name of self-expression and empowerment. Seen how they dance at the high school prom lately? Checked out the top Halloween costumes on campus? It’s societal, not male.

    • Ukumbwa

      Granted, but who created these industries? Who runs the school of media sexualization? Who created the “characters” that these young women are playing out at the prom and in the larger society? What you suggest is that it is also the enslaved African that is responsible for the system of slavery. Yes, we are all responsible for our own actions, and there are many women and girls that play out this story, but there is a necessity for us to name where the initial spark is an imbalance, a weakness in the masculine energy, in men. If we don’t acknowledge this, we will miss any and all opportunities to heal men and heal and protect women and all children from this virus, this violence, this tragic legacy of modern, industrial, corporate society that hides truth, degrades and punishes the feminine (in women AND men) and sits idly by while those that have been victimized simply state the case of their experience.

      This problem is societal NOW. It is male in its origins. An arson investigator would never report that the problem of a house burnt to the ground is the house itself. The problem is in the accelerant, the hand that lit the match and the pathology in the heart, mind and spirit that conjured the idea of their own abuse of power in that way.

      • Anonymous

        Give me a break.

        Mothers and female teachers have life or death power over boys until about the age of 12. Women are the ones who primarily raise boys and not just in single mother households, because women want control of childrearing, it is a source of power and a source of self-actualization. By and large the women who raise boys do everything they can to make boys ashamed of their feelings and emotions. Boys are MASSIVELY CONDITIONED to be emotionally numb. Indeed, IMHO what is done to boys, especially in American society, BY WOMEN, is little short of EMOTIONAL MUTILATION. Very young boys cry and are emotionally touched more easily than very young girls and there is a raft of development psychological data that shows that. It is women who tell boys not to cry, it is women who tell boys that boys must always be strong and never show hurt, it is women who tell boys to fight back, it is women who start pushing hurt boys away to heal on their own as young as 3 and 4 years old, it is women who want strong, financially successful, sexually assertive men (vulnerable, poor patient guys get NO sex, trust me), and when men reinforce these messages with each other in the “boy code” it is because they were all trained by powerful, powerful women. And when boys become young men, young women taunt them into fighting with each other and refuse to have anything to do with the guys who aren’t (to other guys) obviously headed for the Big House. When boys become men, girlfriends and wives want emotionally aware men who understand the WOMEN’s feelings, but who never express any feelings of their own. Adult male vulnerability has been a huge turn-off, and even a psychologically disturbing reality to become aware of, to virtually every adult woman I have ever dealt with, including my dear wife of 25 years. We are supposed to MAN UP, SUCK IT UP, GROW A PAIR, GET OVER IT.

        So spare me the BS. I don’t give a rat’s ass how you define the patriarchy. Women (yes, including those feminists who hate men) are getting at least as much out of the “patricharchy” (whatever it is) and maintaining the patriarchy by their everyday actions as any man or boy. This is a problem that men and women create together and men and women need to solve together. Men are Human Too.

  • Gaius Cassius

    I’m always amazed that when On Point discusses issues specific to women there are never any male panelists involved. It’s as if men are not allowed a point of view when discussing these kinds of issues. Why the absence of the male perspective in these conversations On Point?

  • notafeminista

    I’d be curious to know what is the responsibility of the woman in these situations. Avoiding the alcoholic beverage? Perhaps being unwilling to participate in the “hookup”?

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      It’s sad that women have to be hyper-vigilant to avoid being assaulted. Is it unwise to get wasted at a frat party? Yes. Does that mean the woman has culpability in getting raped? No. As a guy, I don’t worry about walking down the street at night, I don’t worry about having one too many beers at a party, I don’t have to live in fear, always on my guard. It’s wholly unfair to a woman that we even suggest she shares responsibility for being raped, because she doesn’t operate at high paranoia at all times.

      • K Williams

        Young women need to be careful. Not all men are like you.

      • Steve

        In college I was friends with a beautiful, free spirited woman in late 1970′s Saint Louis. I often suggested that she alter her behavior according to the environment she was in. Liberation/freedom was/is not looked at the same in all parts of a city.

        She was stabbed to death in her sophmore year.

        • JZ

          So true! These “free spirited”, progressive or whatever they want to call themselves will be seen as easy prey for the less scrupulous. Sorry to hear about your friend.

  • notafeminista

    I’d be curious to know what is the responsibility of the woman in these situations. Avoiding the alcoholic beverage? Perhaps being unwilling to participate in the “hookup”?

  • notafeminista

    To Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg
    However, it is equally unfair to assume she has no responsibility because to do so disempowers her. If the idea is to give women the power, then she must share in some of the responsibility. We are responsible, both men and women alike, for the choices we make. To suggest otherwise, takes power away from the woman.

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      The threat of violence against women is a akin to terrorism. Men marching and chanting “No means yes” is organized intimidation. We ought not curtail our freedoms because of other people’s willingness to engage in criminal behavior. It takes no power away from women to say that we should not expect them to live their lives cowed by the threat of violence and that we should not tolerate that threat.

    • Michele

      What you are saying is that one person is responsible for the decision making of another. That is bunk. A rapist or sexual aggressor is completely responsible for their acts. What is disempowering to women is people who say that women have some responsibility in getting raped or being sexually harassed. Egregious.

  • notafeminista

    It does take power away from women to say she shares no culpability for the choices she makes. One reason given here both on the show and in the comments is that the women are intoxicated. Who made the choice to drink? We know, regardless of sexual behavior, that alcohol impairs our judgment and response times (see any study regarding drunk driving). Again, to say that a woman is not responsible for the choices she makes is to take power away from her. Why are we so quick to make women the victim? Well, that’s easy enough to answer. Then it fits with the paradigm as man as the irredeemable sexual predator.

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      That’s like saying if you’re in a horrible car accident because the car had a faulty design, you bear responsibility for the accident because, after all, cars can be dangerous. And you made the choice to drive.

      Let’s say a guy, we’ll call him Bob, goes to a party and some ass gropes his girlfriend, so Bob speaks up, tells the other guy off, and that guy pulls out a gun and shoots him. Is Bob responsible for being shot because he made the choice to go to a party where there was drinking? Because he chose to speak out against inappropriate behavior? No. The blame is appropriately all on the shooter and it doesn’t make Bob a victim to say so.

  • Laetus

    I am extremely happy that this issue is finally being dealt with and I am grateful to the brave women who have come forward to change this obvious issue on college campuses. Two years ago I was a part of a petition and protest against a fraternity’s conduct. We were harrassed by frat members and our formal complaint was pushed aside without any punishment of any kind for those involved. It is good to hear that these issues are taken more seriously today.

  • notafeminista

    Conversely it is suggesting that one when drives a car he/she bears no responsibility for the operation of the car even under adverse conditions. It is wise to at least have a working knowledge of what might happen when driving in the rain, or the snow, or has a tire blowout at any speed. The car doesn’t even have to have a faulty design. However, the reaction of the driver to immediate conditions is considered in how the car (and driver) end up.

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      I would argue that driving the car poorly or incompetently is more like having unprotected sex, in this analogy. There you clearly bear responsibility for your actions.

      And frankly, I think it is your position that paints men as irredeemable sexual predators. If a woman bears responsibility for her sexual assault because of the dress she wore or that she went to a party, how is that not saying, “Well you know men can’t control themselves…”

      Was the 11 year old gang raped in Texas recently responsible for her rape because, as some of the neighborhood residents said, she “dressed older than her age, wearing makeup and fashions more appropriate to a woman in her 20s”?

      • Anonymous

        No, Eric, that 11 year girl was not responsible for her rape.

        Neither were the 11 year old boys recently raped in Louisiana by a 15 year old girl, in a story that has recently (not surprisingly) virtually no press.

        Neither was the 14 year old boy in Astoria, Oregon, who was plied with alcohol until he was drunk by a 38 year old woman, who then raped him. Although I do find it deplorable that the 38 year old woman was given a sentence of 30 days. Yes, you read that right. 30 days for getting a boy drunk and raping him. The boy was too traumatized to show up at the sentencing hearing. His mother went instead.

        Why do I bring up these examples, Eric? Because David Lisak’s data is crystal clear that boys like these 11 year olds and 14 year olds (and the thousands of other boys who have been “initiated” by 30-something teachers and aunts) run about a 66% risk of becoming the very serial rapists of women who were talked about on this On Point program (that is, the 8% of men who commit 90% of the rapes) if these boys do not receive long term treatment. And right now they are not receiving treatment and help because we all do not view males, even boys, as victims who need anything other than to “get over it.”

        There are vicious cycles and virtuous cycles. We all, men and women, have to come at all aspects of this program. Don’t ignore any victim. Work for justice for all.

        • Anonymous

          BTW, for those who don’t believe me, google “Julia Green Astoria 14 boy rape” She was sentenced to her pathetic 30 days in a county jail for rape one month ago this week.

  • Englishmajor07

    Growing up, I naively thought that the only women who engaged in pornography were women society would not call classically pretty. I was raised to understand that women who take off their clothes for money have low self-esteem; however, in college when I was finally exposed to porn, I saw young, attractive women many of whom, frankly, resemble Barbie. The women in pornography are sexually uninhibited in a way that many (dare I say most?) American women are not. Hugh Hefner’s former girlfriends and his current fiancé look an awful lot like Barbie too. I’m well-educated and liberal-minded, but as a 25 year-old, it’s hard not to compare myself with the women in our media. You’ll find this bizarre, but in some ways, I’d rather be compared to Victoria’s Secret models, because at least they seem more naturally “beautiful.” I’m disappointed that I feel so self-conscious of my body when I’m with the person who loves me, and it might be related to the large-breasted, bleach-blondes I imagine are the “ideal.” And I’m not too bad off in the looks department either. In fact, I’m better off than most women my age. So what gives? Maybe it’s Barbie’s fault. Maybe it’s mine for playing with her, but no matter how you slice it, the low self-esteem of young women today is a bummer. It sets us up for failure in the college environment, and it sets young men up as well. It’s not socially acceptable to walk away from a party environment because you respect women too much. And my experience with date rape? It’s going on all the time. I graduated in ’07 and my sister graduates this year. We both joined sororities: one at a liberal arts university and one at a large, notorious party school. It doesn’t matter where you go to school, because fraternities encourage an entitled attitude and sororities encourage looking hot and being popular with the guys. What’s especially sad, to me, is that a lot of us thought we’d meet our husbands in the Greek system. I know three girls who did, and the one who met her husband her freshman year was incredibly lucky. I hope she escaped college without any of the horrible memories and guilt that many of us carry around with us into every new relationship.

    Hopefully my recent, real world experience will add something new to the discourse. Thank you for shining a light on this difficult topic.

  • cchapman

    As a male college student, listening to today’s show made me realize how much of a negative impact results from this whole idea of a “gray zone” and just continues to fuel an atmosphere in which such horrible things can happen so frequently with so little public concern.

    From my experience, as soon as the issue of the one drink policy comes up (if a woman has consumed any alcohol, it’s legally defined as rape), it brings the entire discussion to a stalemate. Most people I know will get so caught up in this issue–this gray zone– that they completely lose track of the real issues. However, after listening to today’s discussion it made me realize how much of a non-issue this gray area is. When one of the presenters brought up that the percentage of people who report a “regret” to those who have actually been assaulted is statistically equal to any comparable false report, it made me realize that even if such a gray zone exists, it’s so small that it really does come back to being as black and white as it should be perceived: if a girl (or guy) is reporting sexual abuse, it should be taken absolutely seriously. We really need to be able to see this fear of false accusation for as silly and trivial as it is.

    If anything, I’d hope to assure people there are average college males like myself that can’t stand to see these things happen.

  • Tobynsaunders

    The frat and hip hop cultures, which have some overlap, encourage sexism against women, along with tax funded shows like Prairie Home Companion (Keiler has called feminists ‘over-reacting’), and along with the Christian mythology which treats women as 2nd class. These bad trends all contribute to the abuse; I know multiple girls who’ve been raped at colleges… it’s horrible & it is normal. People don’t seem to care; we should all care about feminism (equal treatment of women & men) more.

  • CollegeGrad

    Michele,

    Can I complain that my car was stolen, when I left it in a dark alley in Mexico with the doors wide open, keys in the ignition and music blaring? A girl going to a guy’s room and “fooling around” with someone she doesn’t know or trust is synonymous to inviting a car thief to sit in the car.

    I’m not defending rapists. However, in most cases (certainly not all) it is not that difficult to keep away from a potentially dangerous situation.

    Rape is wrong. Definition is the problem. One thing is undebatable – women can, and should, take more responsibility for their own circumstances.

    • Anonymous

      No means no.

      • Mollymcb

        even when it occurs after the fact

      • CollegeGrad

        Don’t miss the point. If a woman doesn’t put herself in that situation, she wouldn’t even have to utter the word “no”.

        • Anonymous

          If a man didn’t try to force her, she wouldn’t even have to think about saying no. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

        • Anonymous

          sometimes the situation comes to her. you cant walk away from life. everybody dies, not everybody lives. what do you do? lock yourself up in chastity belt behind closed doors. a prisoner. Sex is not the boogey man. You might enjoy it.

          • CollegeGrad

            Did you read my post? I said “in many cases, certainly not all”.

            Sex should be enjoyed – RESPONSIBLY.

            Drunk driving incidents diminish quickly when you remove the getting drunk part. The effect would be the same with what people choose to call “rape”.

          • Michele

            RAPE IS NOT SEX. It is an act of violence and domination!!!! Violent Sex is the MECHANISM to dominate and hurt. Sex is between two (or how ever many choose to participate) consenting adults – period.

          • CollegeGrad

            Michele, I wasn’t saying it is. Mr. M (above) was making an argument about sex – to which I replied.

            If a woman is responsible in who she chooses to put herself in that situation with (responsible sex), many “rape” cases would be averted. Many college women continue irresponsible behavior and cry foul when bad things happen – why should we listen?

          • Anonymous

            that doesn’t make any sense–remove the driving part not the drinking
            part–walk to the drinky drink. Unrelated.

    • Michele

      Yes. You can complain. You don’t take what isn’t yours. PERIOD.

      • CollegeGrad

        And that’s exactly what this show was – an hour of complaints for a “1/4″ statistic that is skewed by women’s illogical arguments.

        • Michele

          What is illogical about expecting that your person will not be violated? And that your will will not be suborned by the will of another? And to your other point about being in that situation – What defines “that situation”? Walking down the street? Trusting someone who has nefarious intentions? Going out in public? Having an alcoholic drink with the expectation of safety and no bodily harm? How illogical. I have been harassed many times without doing a damn thing to invite the unwanted attentions of some man who thinks he can say or do whatever he wants. There is nothing appealing about being harassed or violated. I am an intelligent, well-educated, hard-working woman and I certainly do not invite men to treat me as if I am the sum of my parts and nothing more. But it still happens, more times than I can count.

          • CollegeGrad

            Michele – you’re right – now continue to widen your perspective. You will continue to get “harassed” in many ways – men are that way and you should expect it by now. I don’t approve, but that’s the reality. Men chase. Culture encourages them to chase. Have you looked around the internet recently, through a guy’s eyes, and seen the hordes of inappropriate, tempting images thrown in their faces? No bearing on the argument, but consider that for just a minute…and women continue to dress provocatively, then get upset when the guy “sneaks a peak”. What a silly double standard.

            Not all men can be accused, but many can. Popular culture encourages this behavior. Just look at Quagmire on Family Guy – and people think it’s funny… it’s not, and it carries serious consequences for society. Both men and women are to blame for accepting and laughing at this.

            The case I’m proposing is that many of these “rapes” can be prevented by responsible behavior on the woman’s part. (This may not be you, but it CERTAINLY is the case for 80%+ of college girls). If you know men can be this way, why dress provocatively, why go to a bar and get positively drunk, why go to a guy’s room (who you know next to nothing about) why begin to fool around…bad things WILL happen. And obviously women are angry, because it does. Well, solve it – take responsibility for yourself!

            I am not saying women are to blame. But they undoubtedly can do their part to avoid such a situation. Hypothetically, if all college age women did, college “rape” would no longer be an extraordinary statistic. As I said, it won’t solve all cases, but certainly many.

            Women: get real, and re-evaluate your standards and expectations, and be responsible.

          • Michele

            You are either incredibly young or just clueless. You do not have the right under any circumstances to take what is not yours. It is outrageous to say that women need accept the way men act. Men need to CHANGE the way they act towards women. We are not playthings put here for your amusement. We are human beings. Men need to be responsible for their behavior. You stated: Women, reevaluate your standards and expectations. You need to reevaluate yours – no women should have to put-up with harassment because a man EXPECTS that he can harass her. If I go out in public and someone harasses me – I need to change my expectations because that’s just the way it is? I don’t think so. You need to change your expectation of what proper behavior toward the opposite sex constitutes.

    • Anonymous

      why do you say Mexico? do you think Mexicans are thieves or criminal? do you think you are better then Mexicans–more moral somehow? disgusting.

      • CollegeGrad

        Don’t skew an important discussion by contorting what I said. I never said anything you’re implying. I grew up on four continents and I am a citizen of three countries – no, I am not “better” than anyone else.

        Are you so deluded, or ignorant, as to not understand the obvious – that Mexico has very high levels of car theft, among other high crime rates? It is a relevant example for North America, I might as well have said Algeria, or Kazakhstan, or South Africa, or Columbia.

        Let’s get back to an important point – that in many cases (again, certainly not all) women are fully responsible for their part of situation in which they put themselves. a) Dressing like a hooker, b) getting drunk, c) going to a worked of guy’s room, d) choosing to fool around, are all her choices – ones she is fully responsible for. e) She should also be held responsible for knowing that the guy she doesn’t know very likely does not have her best intentions in mind.

        Now, the guy commits a crime. This is wrong, and he is fully responsible for it. This however, does not absolve the woman from all responsibility for what happened. She put herself there.

        • Anonymous

          You could have said any number of white bred towns too hero. Thieves are
          everywhere. And it’s a logical fallacy. You’re deflecting the
          issue–it’s unrelated. And the man didn’t have to go to those places
          either. i agree that women dress a certain way deliberately for sexual
          reasons. however, I do not think she was raped because of her clothes.
          Predators will go after any women, no matter how she is dressed. Cloaked
          women in Arabia get raped. As another posted, men got hot and bothered
          over the sight of ankles in the past. A girl can wear a conservative
          blouse and skirt and still be very alluring, and be harassed or preyed
          on. Predators rape to dominate and control–a power thing. So-called
          unattractive women also get raped, harassed, or abused. If the women
          resisted then she was raped and it is not her fault no matter where she
          was or how she was dressed. You can’t excuse the criminal and blame it
          on the victim. That is such a red state republican tea bagger racist
          thing to do–historically. These fascist totalitarian bigots enslave
          somebody and then blame it on the slave for being less human and
          biblically ordained; they think the poor are fundamentally flawed, evil,
          or lazy, or that welfare recipients are criminal and lazy–these are the
          victims oppressed and persecuted by the corrupt fascist elite–often
          confederate-republicans–a culture of hate and evil. I didn’t ask you
          where you lived and i don’t care. I’m not saying you are one of these
          people, and I’m not saying you are not. I’m just saying your perspective
          resembles this ethos. I love to look at sexy half-naked women and flirt
          and when single want to play but if she’s not interested i don’t force
          it on her, i don’t push–there’s either something between us or there’s
          not. A rapist is insecure and socially retarded and
          undesirable–mentally, emotionally, and physically, hurt, damaged, and
          he becomes aggressive. The woman is not at fault. it takes a certain
          kind of person to commit such a violent act–a bad person, an immature
          person, an unstable person, arrogant. If he thinks he can force himself
          on somebody, he most likely thinks he can do that in other aspects of
          life as well–a tyrant.

          You should be aware of how you sound to logical caring people–you sound
          like you are advocating rape, in the same way a warmonger advocates mass
          murder, or a tyrant advocates slavery–as if they deserve it. I don’t
          think you want to say that or sound like that–do you?

          • CollegeGrad

            Why are you arguing? I agree with you. You, sir, are skewing the argument. Read what I said. Think what I said. Then talk – if you did, you would not have written 80% of what you just wrote.

            To reiterate, since you don’t appear to have actually considered what I said: Rape is bad, rapists are bad, and there is plenty of cases where the rapist is guilty. This show was not about this.

            This show was about why this statistic is so much higher in college specifically. My case is that the marginal difference is due, in part (again, for the third time, not in whole) to circumstances prevalent in college. And women could easily take responsibility for removing themselves from these circumstances.

            It’s that simple. 75% of the argument deflates if women were to behave more responsibly in the face of possible danger. The 25% of cases where it’s a legitimate, serious, actual rape case, is being muddled up by women screaming “rape” at every occasion.

            Women aren’t doing themselves any favors with this approach, and are foregoing to opportunity of attacking the real issue – the actual, guilty, rapist.

          • Anonymous

            “The 25% of cases where it’s a legitimate, serious, actual rape case, is being muddled up by women screaming “rape” at every occasion.”–this statement is absolute total nonsense. Very very chauvinist. i don’t think you do agree with me. Why would a woman claim she was raped unless she was? She was. Why do you insist on calling 25%–a huge number–bitter or crazy or lying? That is the habit off all dictators ( and most happen to be chauvinist) who attack dissent. Where is your evidence that these women are lying or looking for attention. There is no such evidence–that is your prejudice, your bigotry, your misogyny.

            I know what university culture is like–and fraternities are essentially built on a culture of rape and misogyny–whether they’re aware of it or not–a wolf-pack society.

            i agree that they shouldn’t put themselves in these situations, however young girls are impressionable, naive, inoncent, decieved, unaware, etc…and cannot blamed for being human. What they need is more education awareness on campus. they need to abolish fraternities. they serve no good. And abolish sororities too. They are organized around nothing except elitism.

  • Bwarrior2

    April 12th, 2011

    I really appreciated the dynamic news hour with Gail Dines on Tom Ashbrook’s radio show today which discussed the environment for women on campus.

    The way colleges and universities have been hiding and covering up the sexual assaults of girls and women on campus is a crime in itself. They, the faculty, should be mandated reporters. Just as with the rapist priests these crimes have festered too long, unexposed to the light of day. This is the very situation which bestows impunity on those committing these crimes and will scar the victims forever.

    Bringing them out in the open, as on today’s show, is the first step in dealing with the perpetrators and holding accountable the faculty who protect them and allow the victims to be squelched into mortified silence.

  • Professor

    Thank you for your show. I teach in a college and have been dismayed by the fact that administrators find it acceptable to deal with rape charges internally, rather than encouraging victims to report this crime to the police. Your guests eloquently explained all of the reasons this happens, and how it perpetuates the problem of rape on campus communities.

    Even if the encouragement not to report is subtle, it is of course effective. Under such conditions, my female students who are assaulted, as well as the sympathetic women around them in whom they confide, report feeling ignored and dismissed as a result.

    This is not an environment in which all parties are receiving an equal opportunity to a quality education.

    Bravo to the men on this forum (e.g., c. chapman) who learned something from this show. Now speak out.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Besides the stories of male chauvinism in Lake Wobegon, such as it is (“all the women are strong”), you can also view male sexual privilege and abuse of females played out through literary means also funded by public broadcasting on Masterpiece Theater. I can’t even begin to pick.
    It seems to me there was one exception, a series about a female running for a seat in the British Parliament, and her spouse and children were either alcoholic or on their way off the rails. Her liberation might have been at their expense. But women were depicted with healthier personalities altogether than is seen — well, I leave it to you. Every era has its strong and admirable of both genders.

  • Modern Mother

    I listened intently today to the show. I have two young children, a boy and a girl, who are in 3rd and 4th grades. We often discuss the pitfalls of drugs and substance abuse, but never discuss pornography and the dark role it can play in a youth or adult’s life. As a parent of “tweens”, it is increasingly evident how the over exposure of sexual themes infiltrates every part of our culture. The description of “pornography everywhere” was so vivid to me. One would be careful to stop and think the next time, they hear or use the more than common expression of today, f–k You! Exactly what is being said and what does it mean? It may be the first introduction to sexual agression a child experiences. Maybe it shouldn’t be taken so lightly the next time it is expressed in a 4th grade classroom or on the wall in the bathroom. Maybe the check-out aisle at the local grocery store should be “cleaned up” a little, as well. How incidental should we really make sex out to be? As common as sexting is today? Thanks so much for the program.

    • Ellen Dibble

      I can’t imagine what a third or fourth grader would make of a phrase like F–k you, said with the dismissiveness appropriate to the sentiment. It seems to me that without any actual freight of explicit meaning, F–k you signals an independence from any of the tethers of interpersonal bondage. It states that I can get all that I need, even from the physical strivings evolved to draw us together into familial units, all that without any vulnerability whatsoever. I am immune to heartbreak. I respect no one so much as myself. (That sort of thing.) It probably teaches a tween to beware of getting “involved.”
      Watch Gone with the Wind to get a good dose of how to break your heart.
      I’m focused at the moment on the words in a court transcript where a witness is using the word “p-u-s-s-y,” which was spoken by someone she is saying is disrespectful, so she spells out all the disrespecful words, that one especially, which is actually applied by one male towards another. I think she doesn’t bother to spell out the words directed at herself. Less offensive maybe.
      Where I live there is currently have a statewide project in schools and elsewhere to address bullying, which seems to be along the same lines, protecting oneself from vulnerability by attacking any vulnerabilities of others. I could imagine that certain frat types were socialized to think that bullying is like putting on a Superman cape.

  • notafeminista

    To Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg
    If I understand correctly, your question is whether or not the 11 yr old was at fault because she dressed provocatively or wore makeup. No. It is the the fault of those who are/were responsible for her welfare.

    As for your comment about isn’t that the same as saying men are simply unable to control themselves and thusly are not responsible for the mayhem they commit upon women…no. It is however intellectually dishonest to say that women do not have the power or that women are disempowered, and then in the same breath say, “He got her drunk” – as if she is not responsible for her own intake of alcohol or lack thereof. Well is she or not? If she drank to excess and then got behind the wheel of a car, do we blame the car for her careening in to a tree as a result?

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      The fault of those who are responsible for her welfare? That’s your first thought??? What about the rapists? Surely they have some responsibility.

      My point is that it’s awful that the mindset you’re demanding of women is, “If you drink too much in the company of men, expect to get raped.” And more, this is about men who specifically and, to quote Black Adder, “with beastliness of forethought” bank on alcohol to help them sexually assault someone. Being young and foolish isn’t crime enough to deserve being assaulted, I’m sorry. In the real world, kids drink, sometimes to excess; they don’t always think the cute person handing them a drink is preying on them and they shouldn’t have to.

  • Cristina Leonard

    I think girls need to change the way they dress and behave!!! I think this is the main problem.

    • endabusenow

      You’re kidding, right?

      • jsaljsalj

        I think CollegeGrad is on the money. It is not about BLAME at all. It is about common sense and responsibility. Consider this scenario: when I go out with my friends to drink, we have a designated driver. That way, I have the FREEDOM or LIBERTY or LICENSE to get smashed if I should so choose. But I’ve already taken the precaution of having a NON-DRINKER drive me home. Because I may be physically incapable of driving, and my judgment is impaired. Now, that’s just drinking by the way. Common sense tells us that we NEED to take precautions lest we put ourselves at risk. Believe me, if I get drunk and get behind the wheel and end up hitting someone with my car – NO ONE is going to absolve me of my guilt. NO ONE is going to say “don’t blame her just because she exercised poor judgment.”

        Ridiculous, right!? I don’t believe that women ASK to be raped, but let’s not pretend we are living in a fool’s paradise either. Take responsibility for yourself and for your choices.

        • Anonymous

          so shouldn’t the men also take responsibility and respect human beings no mater how they dress or how drunk the human-girl gets. careening out of control cars don’t think or make choices–people do. just because a girl goes to a party and drinks doesn’t mean shes willing to sleep with anyone–and she has the right to sop when she wants to–just like you say–she uses judgment–the problem is–some men don’t respect her judgment and don’t even see her as an equal human being–often conservative males–republicans, tea-party people, elitists some–and this behavior and view of the world can be seen in all their perspectives–warmongering, bullying, racist, black people hating, immigrant hating, xenophobic, nationalistic, dictatorial tyrannical Christianity bible thumping men of one book, uniform loving fascist police-state “family-value” individualist type people that blame the victim routinely…these are the men and women we are talking about, the same ones that rape and then take woman’s rights away and funding for family planning.

    • CollegeGrad

      Agreed. Yet many many females choose to ignore this problematic social cause, from teenage girls to “wise mothers”, and are surprised at the societal effect. Not very insightful or responsible.

    • Shelly1tg

      To blame the women is absolutely absurd! Are you saying that the 1 out of 5 women that are sexually assaulted college campuses got what they deserve? The problem is boys are not being taught to respect girls and this society protrays women as objects.

      • Anonymous

        tre–but some women act and behave like objects

  • Anonymous

    Hey now, Adam Sandler may not be a mature adult role model but he never harassed any women in any of his movies.

    • Millfill

      And in the film “Spanglish” he played a loving, kind husband dealing with his wife’s insecurities and infidelity. Ironic that these talking heads would rail against stereotypes against women, but then come up with their own movie stereotypes not backed by any facts.

    • Brandon

      I’m not a Sandler fan in the least, but I too found that reference absurd. The point she seemed to be making was that he plays immature characters, which has led to a lack of maturity among young men, which in turn increases the likelihood of rape. I think? But even if we agree that the popularity of characters like his has led to an unfortunate lack of maturity among young men today, the types of immature characters he plays seem entirely harmless to me. They’re the type of immature guys who maybe stay home and play video games and put off getting married, not the type of immature guys who go out and rape people. It just seemed like a ridiculous leap of logic to explain a very serious phenomenon.

  • Benny

    The idea that porn causes rape isn’t “obvious” at all as your guest said. In fact, there’s very little data to back this up. There IS data that bad sexual education, such as abstinence only education, and bad parental role models do. Also, the idea that exposure to sexual ideas in adolescence is unhealthy is not only incorrect, but staggeringly damaging. By discussing sexuality with teens, and encouraging healthy sexual experiences (YES, including romantic and sexual relationships) is the best way to teach. Teaching teens that sex is bad, shameful, or harmful only perpetuates the rape problem.

    • NYC Female

      Very well said Benny … I posted a similar sentiment above.

    • Anonymous

      agreed

    • Anonymous

      You are 100% correct. I wish this was a culture that understood nuance.

      As the father of two college age daughters, looking back, one of the best decisions my wife and I ever made was to get the kids into the sex education program at our local Unitarian Univeralist church. It was a start-with-abstinence-but-be-safe-when-you-meet-someone-you-are-attracted-to-and/or-love program. Both daughters are sexually active, but (to parental knowledge, and TMI is still TMI) but have had a limited number of relationships with guys they have mutual romances with.

      When you look at the data and see how risky it is for college kids to drink and hook up (for women because there is a frightening correlation between the number of sexual partners and the likelihood of being acquaintance raped; for men because there is an anecdotal — when the hell is a women’s study program finally going to do real research on male sexuality already???!!! get with it sisters or watch a male studies program come to your campus — but still frightening possibility that too much booze will take a man across a line into sexual assault that he just does not want to cross even once), we should do everything in our power to come at both the sexualized commercial culture of our time (where do we all think men and women get these ideas from, folks???) and the party culture of college.

      I’ve posted this elsewhere before, but I have this pet idea du jour I am going to repeat again here. Look at Karen Owen’s F**k list Powerpoint on the web. That is a report from the front lines of how men are and women are using each other and treating each other in objectified ways. And note, in particular, two of Ms. Owen’s case studies (I forget the studmuffins’ numbers and am too lazy to look them up now, but they will pop out at you):

      One guy and Ms. Owen get so totally drunk that she knows he had sex with her and she can’t remember anything about it so she can’t “obectively” (pun intended) rate him. Sure sounds like acquaintance rape to this man. But it sure didn’t sound like rape to Ms. Owen, it was just a lost opportunity to gather data. THAT is the mindset of the 35% of the women in the 2007 study behind the ED OCR approach who thought that blackout sex was not sexual assault.

      Another guy looks deeply into Ms. Owen’s eyes most of the time they are playing together. He connects with her emotionally. He talk with her. He makes sure she gets off first. He tells her what he wants. He is fun and playful with her. He gets that “YES MEANS YES!” They do it multple times. She barely wants to leave his bed at noon the next day, by which time their blood alcohol content is down to normal (well, normal for Duke anyway). Read her account and tell me that Ms. Owen is not in LOVE! She is so in love she gives the guy a 12.5 out of 10. She confesses in her Powerpoint to having feelings about wanting to settle down, or at least stalk him (ok, I am being a little dramatic in my retelling).

      Women can want No Strings Attached Sex. Men can want Romance (and having been there I will tell you when men get alone together, with guys they trust, they tell each other they want and need Love and that in an even semi-committed relationship sex for a man is an “actions speak louder than words” statement by his partner that she (or he) loves him). What is never ok is violence.

  • DivisionByZero

    Sigh. It’s the same old story. Radical feminist academics hijacking a really serious issue to further their own agenda. Rape on college campuses is a serious issue and it needs to be addressed. It’s also true the perpetrators often walk free and that has to be stopped as well. What’s objectionable is how feminist academics have exploited this situation as a way to provide evidence for their own pet theories about gender and sex in order to further their careers and to effect social change that conforms to that theory.

    Many feminist theorists believe that any kind of sex is inherently an act of violence because of the asymmetric power dynamics at play (supposedly men have more power than women). Some even believe that sex between men and women is always rape. Gail Dines falls into the latter category. She’s notorious for her hatred of men. She will not be happy until all men are “expelled from the community”.

    I think it’s disgusting how she and other feminists try to parley something that we all agree on, rape is evil, into indoctrination into a set of beliefs that most sane people would never agree on, heterosexual sex is evil. And there is no doubt she would have no problem with the government enforcing her view of the world upon everyone.

    Feminism was once about freedom but now it seems to be about fear. It’s amazing how the whacko left and the whacko right converge on methods even if the objects are different.

    • Anonymous

      “What’s objectionable is how feminist academics have exploited this situation as a way to provide evidence for their own pet theories about gender and sex in order to further their careers and to effect social change that conforms to that theory.

      Many feminist theorists believe that any kind of sex is inherently an act of violence because of the asymmetric power dynamics at play (supposedly men have more power than women). Some even believe that sex between men and women is always rape. Gail Dines falls into the latter category. She’s notorious for her hatred of men. She will not be happy until all men are “expelled from the community”.

      do you have proof of this evidence–i am not familiar with this woman, but your statement seems reactionary and bias–anti-intellectual. how do you know that this woman hates men or sex? what makes you so highly-intelligent and informed?

  • Gregg

    Forgive me if this was addressed, I heard only part of the show.

    There was talk of the “privileged” feeling they had a right to have their way. I think that is a very dangerous stereotype. It’s just as bad to stereotype poor blacks as victims. I am referring to the Duke Lacrosse team. Lives were altered forever because of knee jerk stereotyping. I agree that the accuser’s name should be withheld but so should the accused. It’s not always clear who the victim is.

    Rape is a violent act not a sexual one. Victims should not be blamed in any circumstance but it is not right to assume guilt or innocence based on race, sex or income.

  • notafeminista

    Or that women allow themselves to be objectified.

  • Jsaljsalj

    I tuned in late to the show and heard a LOT of blame-the-guy rhetoric. I even heard one of your panelists say men are watching porn, and more and more, porn educates men to consider women solely as “sexually available” objects. Okay. There may be truth to that. BUT… the logical question (which your guest didn’t bring up) is… WHAT are the women watching? If the college campus truly is become more of a sexually hostile territory, why is it that women are still naive enough to put themselves in potentially dangerous situations? Do they not bear responsibility? On your show, you played a recording of some “almost-victim” who said – and I quote – “just because I consented to SOME sexual activity does not mean that I consented to ALL.”

    Hello??? Is anyone listening to what she is saying? Why is she consenting to ANY sexual activity? Your show did not discuss AT ALL this notion of the liberated woman who is free to express her sexuality, parade her sexuality, explore the moral relativism of whatever-feels-right-must-be-right-for-you (be it lesbianism, group sex, oral sex, anal sex, etc.) What are the women watching? Who are the popular female role models? What are the reality shows that female teens and young women watch?

    Consider… “The Jersey Shore” or “Skins” or “Teen Mom” or any number of other MTV shows (which “Doctor” Drew Pinsky labels disingenuously as “cautionary tales” – IDIOT!) or even “Desperate Housewives” – what are women watching??? – these shows continue the trend of the so-called liberated woman who is free to tease and entice and sleep around and make all these choices with their bodies WITH NO CONSIDERATION OF CONSEQUENCES. “Just because I consented to some sexual activity does not mean that I consented to ALL.”

    I am shocked/amazed that no one on your program called this into question. What does “some sexual activity” mean? And where exactly was the line drawn? And how specific was she regarding that boundary with her partner PRIOR to said “sexual activity”? No one bothered to ask any of these questions. Automatically, she is victim and bears NO responsibility. Automatically, he is the violent perpetrator, and (by the rationale of your broadcast “experts”) probably a porn addict.

    One of your “experts” also said something very interesting about her own “son(s).” Regarding the old adage “boys will be boys,” she basically said my boys would NOT ever consider perpetrating sexually aggressive behavior. Hello!? Somebody seriously needs a wake-up call. EVERY MAN, WOMAN, CHILD on the planet wants something for nothing. Therefore… if I can take it and it won’t cost me too much, it’s something I would consider… and that is the essence of LUST. That is the essence of RAPE. To take something (irregardless of consent) with no desire for accountability or consequence.

    But that works both ways – from the guy’s perspective and the girl’s perspective. A significant percentage of women embrace hip-hop culture in all its glorious misogyny (especially when it’s packaged in a cute little white package called ‘Eminem’)… and they are drawn to the FREEDOM of sexual expression, sexual license, etc. HOWEVER… again, it is not without accountability or consequence. If you want to have a serious discussion about the sexual hostility on college campuses, let us not turn a blind eye to the role that women play in WILLFULLY closing their eyes/brains to the risks of their own choices.

    • Kevintayylor

      The line is drawn when someone says stop. Not very hard to figure out.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Are you saying that a man does something other than trying to find out what pleases the individual he is with? He’s thinking it’s a good idea to undertake this essence-of-mutuality act with the attitude of “what can I get away with,” not “what is going to leave us mutually gratified”? Obviously this is not a “relationship,” it is a grab that you’re talking about. Sex as predatory behavior. Where is my burkha, my brother, my sharia law. Or do we have something called “decency” instead?
      This post of yours is what most of the teachers in my elementary school would call “asking for it,” and they didn’t have to back up that threat. We all understood.
      Or am I missing something.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1281557710 Colin Avery Seger

      So what you’re saying is that women should NOT be able to explore their sexuality, but men can? Does that include rape? Is that exploring mens sexuality?

    • cchapman

      I’d suggest only that the percentage of cases where a girl is abused and it is legitimately questionable whether she was at fault ends up being the vast minority of cases. From my limited experience from people close to me that have been victims to this, there is a very clear cut example of a guy with very evil intentions and a complete dehumanization of their victim.

      Say this were a murder vs. manslaughter discussion instead… In some instances, there are instances where a person kills another person and it’s questionable whether it was actually murder; maybe it was self defense, maybe it was an accident, etc. However, while we could all vehemently debate that small minority of cases that are questionable, I think we could come to a virtually unanimous agreement that murder is wrong and that it is not okay for people to commit it without punishment.

      I’d really like to urge many of the people on this thread to avoid the whole “guy’s fault/girl’s fault” argument which indirectly safeguards so many of the blatantly horrible instances of sexual abuse.

      As a college guy, I do disagree with many of the assumptions about males that have been brought up in this discussion, however I recognize these as a different issue and am happy to set them aside to focus on the real, REAL issue of real sexual abusers and rapists (which I believe that despite all of our differences we can get at least 90% agreement of who these people are) and how to put an end to all of this.

    • Anonymous

      so you think its okay for men to sleep around but not women–it takes two man. Women are not possessions. Women are sexual beings just like men, just like you–stop denying your sexuality, your animal. we are all animals with instincts to __! Do I think some women are slutty, yes. but men are sluts too. Stop trying to deny women their humanity–let them breathe and live and be sexual–they are very sexual and i love it, i love that they are sexual. Do want a woman or a man who shuts off his natural being, hos closes up like a robot, emotionless and soo soo serious–so conservative, so inhuman. We are animals. we are sexual. get used to it.

  • Houlibean

    Universities and colleges are not helping victims by intervening in sexual assault cases involving students when they steer them away from the criminal justice system. While the criminal justice system in our country has many failings, it is currently the best way to try and hold the perpetrators of campus sexual assault accountable for their crimes. When University programs discourage victims from reporting assaults to the criminal justice system, no matter what their intent, they are doing more to protect the perpetrator than the victim. It is SO important that University programs work with criminal justice systems not against them.

    While we cannot promise victims positive outcomes from the criminal justice system and the basic truth of it is that our current system is based in justice for the defendant NOT the victim, the reporting of these crimes is so important. Unfortunately, when Universities discourage victims from reporting these crimes in any way, they are also contributing to the overall difficulty in determining the actual rates of occurrence of these crimes on campus.

  • allison

    It seems like Gail Dines has a pretty limited scope of what rape includes. You don’t have to be beaten to be raped. You don’t even have to verbally say “NO” for an unwanted sexual encounter to qualify as rape. Sexual assault comes in many forms, which should all be judged by the same standards and prosecuted with the same vigor. If we, as members of the feminist community, continue to limit our own scripts of what justifies as a violent or coercive sexual encounter, then we can never hope to actually achieve change on the college campus or in society as a whole.

    • DivisionByZero

      Obviously you don’t know much about Gail Dines. If she could get conversation between a man and a woman considered rape, she would.

  • not buying it

    Come back to this issue in 30 years. This isn’t rape. This is a bunch of women who legitimately feel bad. But what’s going to ensue is funding for “victims counseling.”

    Look at Facebook and see how college women comport themselves. A minority may find themselves upset by their sexual encounters, but they shouldn’t put themselves in those situations. There are plenty of ways for women to explore their sexuality on campus without being assaulted. There are gentle men who want to explore their sexuality as well. It’s not necessary to get boozed up or to act like the campus quarterback is the only show in town. And it’s definitely not necessary to head out to Spring Breaks where wet tee-shirt contests or margi gras events are played out.

    Here’s where you may really get made at me. Thirty years ago I was in college and strongly involved in the civil rights movement. Am I pleased at civil rights progress? Unfortunately no. I live near Harlem in NYC.

    I cringe at the way the usually obese (often morbidly obese) African-American mothers treat their children, wearing headphones instead of relating to their kids, answering grammar-less questions from inquiring minds with slaps and barks to shut up.

    I cringe at the interactions between women and men, the women scolding, demeaning, belittling.

    I take the M7 bus downtown and after it passes through Harlem it heads down the upper west side, where mothers talk to their children, encourage vocabulary building, observation and interpretation.

    What the civil rights movement accomplished is a destruction of value and ethic among the cyclically impoverished urban African-American population plus a bloated taxpayer-subsidized bureaucracy of social workers and other health professionals who feed on this mess.

    You don’t want to add even further cohorts to this mix. Instead, let college boys and girls deal with the consequences of their poor behavioral choices. Most of them will cope, and mature, and learn. Heck, the insights they develop from their experiences might even help them decide what kinds of parents they want to be.

    • Anonymous

      You don’t see fathers with their children? Is the upper west side white? Are you implying that it is white vs. black? Ar you lumping an entire race and neighborhood into one category?

      Don’t you think the people in social services can share their experiences with people to raise awareness, help them cope or offer insight?–it takes a community.

      Why do you want everyone to be so atomized and isolated and segregated and family orientated–some kind of purist Confucius doctrine of American individualism–to hell with the community, to hell with society–I’m on my own.

      I think those problems you see in impoverished areas are connected to a great deal of inequality and lack or resources–cutting funding is not the answer–raising funding is the answer–and distributing wealth more evenly among the community and the nation–tax the hell out of the rich and the corporate-government, end the wars, dismantle the standing armies and funnel that money into social infrastructure and you will rarely ever see that kind of impoverished self-destructive mentality in any neighborhood. We are broken. not because we are broke, but because we have been robbed.

      If these children cant get the nourishment and education they need from parents then they have to get it from the community and social programs–YOU need to reach out!

  • (Anonymous)

    I am a recent graduate of an elite small liberal arts school. While I personally did not face any hostile sexual advances or attacks, my best friend did. The incidents did not occur under the influence of substances or even come from another student. It was her own professor.

    He made frequent and shockingly inappropriate sexual comments in response to her ordinary attempts at conversation. These were not private incidents, but occurred within earshot of other students, who reacted with alarmed faces to his comments. While I encouraged her to speak to school administrators, she was afraid to report him, due to the his prominence not only within the university but also within his field. In the end, she decided not to speak to anyone about the incidents, which continued to occur. I advised her to limit contact with the particular professor as much as possible and to avoid ever being alone with him.

    I hope that people recognize that the hostile sexual environment in college extends far beyond drunken late-night student revelries. Influential professors must wield their power responsibly. And university administrators should make it clear that students have a right and a voice to speak out against professors, when they overstep the boundaries of appropriate behavior.

  • http://twitter.com/musoleK Musolĕ K

    Ridding campuses of such retrogressive behavior, in my opinion, is the responsibility of both campus admin and students. How we go about that has many facets but the main one(s) is swifter action on part of admin and compulsory education of student body on dangers and what to look out for. It’s not an end all but it can reduce the prevalence.

  • Katev

    Duh! So we celebrate music from a man who pretends to be a pimp and people find this cool http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDApZhXTpH8

    Read the lyrics http://www.lyrics007.com/50%20Cent%20Lyrics/P.I.M.P.%20Lyrics.html and then he makes even more money fronting for vitamin water http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0tgheca5HM&feature=related

    And if you think this is a racial thing, check out the film Facebook. Where were the women? What were the fancy frats doing with women? Did we hear a word of protest regarding both the treatment of women in Facebook…or any complaint regarding 50 cents?

    It seems that women still don’t feel they can speak up and protest the wave of male dominance. If you want a boyfriend nowadays you have to be a porn stars since that’s all that these boys know how to relate to.

    Help! I’m taking my preteen daughter out of the U.S. to a society that respects girls, that allows women to have self-respect!!!

    • DivisionByZero

      You know, the irony of your response is that you believe that everyone thinks that way because *you* think that way. You are the one that’s been programmed to think that women are only desirable if they are porn stars. Presumably you aren’t one and that must cause quite a bit of self-loathing. Anyhow you should stop taking your self-inflicted disappointment in yourself out on the rest of society. Men, real men, not the ones you made up in your head, appreciate a whole wide range of women (including but not limited to porn stars) and are not programmed by popular culture to believe that there is only one type of woman that is desirable. The best thing you can do for your daughter is not to let hey be programmed like you have been.

  • NYC Female

    As a 30-something female, I’m very upset to hear Gail Dines blur the lines between porn and rape, and phrase the issue as if they are co-conspirators. This is an extremely naive and limiting viewpoint. Rape is ALWAYS violent, always an assault, always illegal. There was rape before there was porn. Not all porn is degrading to women. Many responsible, respectful, mature men AND WOMEN watch and enjoy porn. Yes, there is negative, violent porn. But again, these two things should not be co-mingled as nonchalantly as is being doing in this episode. Same goes for the demonized “hook up” culture as phrased in this show. Not all people always want a relationship with their sex, again this can include women (like myself). This episode has unfornately mixed sexual liberation and rape into one scary monster; which is very unfortunate. Rape stands alone as the true violent demon.

  • http://twitter.com/DarwinDawkins Darwin

    The whole time I was listening to this hour of On Point I was mentally screaming at the radio. Over and over and over I keep hearing about the potential male “serial rapist” who likes to get these vulnerable angelic young women wasted and have his way with them. Hearing how porn is the new sex education and that the great male pig just doesnt get that no means no. What campuses are some of these women living on? The whole time during the conversation im listening to this and thinking that know one remembers that some,and I do mean some men and women act like whores and did so long before they came to college. Rape is wrong,but lets not pretend that we dont know that lose women and men exist. I have been to many parties where there are people that handle alcahol poorly and follow it up by making even worse decisions. Many women arent victims,but women that make poor choices. There are men that do this aswell,but can we PLEASE stop painting men with such a broad brush that includes being potential serial rapists. I found the whole context of the “converstaion” both very sexist and absolutely one sided.News flash to Yale,your guests and other college students.Drink and Act responsibly and take some personal responsibility. Hearing one of the recorded students saying “some consentual sexual acts doesnt mean I consent to all sexual acts.” Are you kidding me? There’s what you do and what you dont do. What is okay and what isnt. The student,not the school and not the male species should be accountable for this.The individual should be. Personal responsibility.

    • cchapman

      I think you and many people here are getting too caught up in college inherently being a place for some bad decisions.

      There’s too much of this recurring hypothetical instance of a girl going to report rape after regretting a decision she made when she was drunk.

      If we can separate ourselves from this hypothetical and focus on the reality that if a girl is reporting being raped, she probably was. There isn’t this system that incentives girls to go through this process to spite a guy. And if there are instances of this, it is the vast minority and it should be disregarded from the main issue.

      • Anonymous

        cc, I think it should be pretty clear from the multiple posts I did yesterday that I both think we have a sexual violence problem on campus and that the Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights approach has ignored the data and is not likely to improve a situation that desperately needs improving, in part because of the tendency of *some* to demonize men rather than describing the data and getting young men and young women to work together to radically lower rapes and attempted rapes.

        But, you should know that reliable data (FBI 1998 and the UK Home Office 2007) clearly demonstrate that about 8% of rape allegations are absolutely, demonstrably false (please let me be clear to other readers, not “not guilty” but “the alleged victims lied and here’s the evidence to prove it to a cop”).

        Just as I view the 8% of men who David Lisak’s studies show are deeply troubled, vicious, serial rapists, most of whom were themselves seriously abused as children (mostly by women, ironically enough), who were not helped (maybe because both men and women are not trained to see males as victims, even male children?), as a VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM and WANT IT TO END NOW WITH VIGOROUS INVESTIGATIONS AND PROSECUTIONS (not the half-begun-is-well-done approach that ED OCR has mandated), I would urge women to step up to the plate and acknowledge that highly reliable, replicated data continues to show that about 8% of rape allegations are utterly fraudulent and that needs policing and enforcement too.

        If we all, men and women, care about compassion and justice and want a better world, we have to care about all aspects of this problem

  • female prof

    I am a female faculty member teaching at a large research university often referred to as a “party school”. I am listening to this piece appalled not just because of how much it resonates with what I see at my university and read in frank and unselfconscious student papers describing sexual violence but because I just heard a female caller describe something very similar to an experience I had as an undergraduate at a prestigious, small liberal arts college 15 years ago. Has nothing changed?

    My experience then: I went out to dinner with a male student. We both drank only water. He was driving me home and said he needed to stop at his room, off campus, to get some work to take to the library. I went inside his apartment. He locked the door and began telling me he could rape me and easily get away with it, that nobody would believe me since I was there by choice, that there are two kinds of women in the world: those who want to have sex and those who want to be forced to have sex. I convinced him to take me home and wait until the next night (as a ploy to get out), and had him drop me off at a dorm other than my own.

    I did not immediately tell anyone. I didn’t even know how to process what had happened. I then started talking to some other female students. SEVERAL of them knew of friends who had similar experiences with this male student, including being alone in the car with him and compelled to give him massages. He had previously been suspended, apparently on academic probation. After hearing all this, I nervously went to speak with both a professional rape counselor and the female dean of students. I still resent this woman. She “investigated” the case by asking me to write a detailed account of what happened, including what I consented to (e.g. dinner and entering the male student’s apartment). She did not ask the male student to produce any written account. A few weeks later she sent me a letter through campus mail informing me that the male student had assured her he acted in a “purely paternalistic” manner. That was the end of it.

    I later found out this male student is the nephew of a very well known Hollywood actor.

    The dean’s response altered my entire college experience, as I felt unable to participate in events she sponsored because she had reprimanded me for bringing an accusation of potential rape. This was a small school. I saw this male student everywhere I went, in the dining hall, at the library, in the gym where I worked.

    I now have a chance to respond differently when I am that person a student reluctantly approaches. My colleagues (male and female) and I take very seriously something we learned in a sexual harassment workshop at our university: faculty who are aware of instances of student to student sexual harassment are required by law (at least here) to report this to their supervisors. I wonder, skeptically: what will university administrators do with this information? Will they treat students appropriately?

  • alan

    I haven’t been this angry listening to OnPoint before. It’s amazing to me that an acting professor can be so out of touch. Adam Sandler, “40 year old child”, and “having sex with everybody with no consequences”, has she ever seen an Adam Sandler movie? They’re chick flicks. Adam Sandler always plays the good guy. He plays on the fact that love is not based upon making lots of money or having lots of things. He’s out for much more. His movies have a positive theme, one that more Americans should follow.

    How dare this professor put all men in the same catagory as, “only looking for one thing”. That is no different than a man saying, “She deserved it for what she was wearing.” I am a man. I was looking for a wife and a family. Lucky for me, that is what I found. Along the way, (living real life and not unabashedly trying to sell my new book) I also found that, “hooking up” works both ways.

    This woman is a pathetic example of someone out of touch. The men who do the things some of the callers talked about, aren’t men at all and are by no means the standard, typical male getting what he wants. They are a sad minority who do this over and over again. To say this kind of thing is due to our culture and is an accepted practice by even one real man, is a slam to men everywhere.

    I am disgusted!

    • grad student

      I am likewise disgusted by this comment. I am not trying to launch a personal assault at all, believe me—I think that it is a natural instinct for men who do not engage in these behaviors to get on the defensive, and I can’t really blame you for that. But the reality is that these are hard words that NEED to be said. The fact that the host and callers were so shocked by some of these behaviors testifies to that.

      This isn’t behavior we’re born with—it’s learned, and most certainly learned through popular culture. Maybe Adam Sandler wasn’t the best example (perhaps Jonah Hill or someone else of that ilk) but I got the point—it illustrates the trend in film and television that has made these behaviors more acceptable.

      The porn argument was easily the strongest one on the show, and the fact is, the porn industry is so huge that it has pervaded the lives of even those who do not consume porn. I’m sure you’ve seen American Apparel ads before, plastered all over city buses and billboards and we don’t even bat an eye. Porn makes the men who consume it completely oblivious to what behavior is normal.

      And again, men who are not consumers of porn or people who haven’t been impacted by a loved one addicted to porn don’t really get it. And that’s okay—that’s why these women are raising awareness. I used to work at the women’s center at my university and I can’t count the number of times a sexual assault victim or a woman with a porn-addicted husband or boyfriend would come in and say “I never thought this would happen to me.” Awareness is the first step in eliminating the problem.

      • DivisionByZero

        The fact that you think the porn argument was the strongest one is sad. Most men would say it is the weakest. It’s just another attempt by feminists to categorize and pigeon-hole men, just like many men did to women. It’s like some sort of weird revenge.

      • Anonymous

        it doesn’t illustrate the point because adam sandler depicts women as whole respectful people who he loves. Hitch on the other hand with will smith tells us women don’t know what they want , mean yes when they say no–sort of–even that’s a poor illustration.

  • Stefan Pelak

    It is an awful situation. Just a couple weeks ago, Oakland University in Rochester Michigan hosted Take Back The Night, an event exposing the horrible truth about college rape and allows victims to get help and talk to people. The event included a march in which supporters marched around campus, men and women. During the march, people hackled these people, cat calling and hooting. It’s absolutely disgusting. It hase seriously questioning wether any campuses take sexual violence seriously.

    • DivisionByZero

      I think they were heckling because of the absurdity of the march, not because they don’t take sexual assault seriously. Why is absurd? Because the night already belongs to women. Yes, horrible things can happen but it’s not like every man out at night is a rapist just waiting for an opportunity to strike. Yet, that’s the message that “Take Back the Night” marches convey and since everyone knows it’s false it becomes absurd. Not to mention the fact that even if the night were filled with rapists a silly march would do nothing to change it.

      Stop listening to the fear-mongers. Life is dangerous but danger is not everywhere. They are trying to manipulate you for their own gain. It’s not unlike the manipulation that happens in the name of the War on Terror.

      • Max

        Cat-calling is sexual, if they were heckling because of the absurdity, I’m sure there would be a more appropriate way to do so.

  • Rachel

    As a female student at Yale, I have never felt like the University would not back me if I had a complaint to file against another student. During our freshmen orientation (2008), we sat through numerous seminars, small-group discussions and even an interactive theatrical production regarding the severity of rape, its broad definition, and the absolute necessity of consent. I am certainly concerned about student safety, but I don’t feel a “hostile sexual environment.”

  • DeeDee

    O.M.G. people! this is about a culture that supports sexual assaults against women! This is NOT about ALL MEN are like this or ALL men on campus…. listen to this again. Your denial of this very important topic is serving to dismiss the very real fears of women on the college campus. This does not only apply to students but involves faculty as well. I’m an alumnus of UCLA and WSU and on both campuses I (and many friends) were quite aware of the which faculty to stay away from. On both campuses, it was known–in fact, there were complaints and grievances made but the male faculty perpetrator walked away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist and the female student, undergrad and grad student had to leave the school or transfer to another campus. I have been violated on campus; my best friend was raped at UCLA. Geez people! This is not a perception but a reality of a patriarchal institution that protects its male faculty and students, particularly if they have any kind of political or social capital. MCXica509

    • alan

      Sadly, you’re point was lost during this discussion through the voice of one of the guest speakers.

  • DivisionByZero

    I finally realized of whom Gail Dines reminds me. Glenn Beck! Except instead of making her money off the backs of disenfranchised, white males she makes her money off the backs of college-aged, female rape victims. My point is essentially that nothing she has said would stand up to peer review and that it is clear that she is trying to be as controversial as possible to sell as many books as she can.

  • Jackie

    I agree that the issue is one of significant importance. I think that its important to identify that many perpetrators are pretty good guys but
    just feel that its their right to get whatever – whether having met at a party, dance or at the bar. This is an issue that has been pervasive for the past 30 plus years.
    I am less convinced that there are serial rapists
    out there, often these are young men who have been taught to have little regard for the young woman with whom they are interacting.

    This is not exclusive to college campuses, occurring on military bases as well. My question is what happens to these young men when they leave the college campus.
    A huge emphasis needs to be placed on empowering young women to look out for each other, options for getting out of sticky situations and
    seeking legal support if assaulted in any manner.
    (As a Pediatrician I find that children are as bothered by sexual molestation as they are by more aggressive sexual assault – I would hazard a guess that it is the same for college students.)

  • lori

    violence against women..violence in the culture…..violence from the industrial-military complex. It’s about time young people start deciphering
    what is going on all around them…Yes, the personal is Political..may you all ACT to save the future.

  • Reschbach

    There wouldn’t be such a large problem if prostitution became legal. Currently our young men have no release for their powerful sexual urges, especially with women looking the way they do and seeming to invite men. If prostitution were legal the rape problem would be minimized.

    • Eileen

      I am sorry to say that I think rape is just as much, if not more of a problem in countries that are more tolerant of prostitution. It is sad that religions and traditions have placed strong stigmas on masturbation because it really can be a practical way to relieve some of the pressure while you try to develop an appropriate relationship. As for the modern fashions, I have heard that men used to get a rush of excitement and the sight of an ankle back in the days when all women’s dresses dragged the ground, so it’s all relative. Young men (often women too) have always had powerful sexual urges – why do you think there are 7 Billion people on the planet.
      Nowadays US women are much bolder than they used to be so if you politely show interest they won’t leave you wondering for long whether they are “seeming to invite you”
      Good luck taming the wild horses within you.

      • RE

        Studies show that rape is not as much of a problem in places that are more tolerant of prostitution. Also, in those places, a man and his prostitute are in an “appropriate relationship”.

    • Jessmorgan08

      If we stop apologizing for and stop tolerating some men’s behaviors, and stop blaming women for being victims of sexual assault, this wouldn’t be such a large problem.

      If prostitution were legal women who give consent to have sex and choose to participate in sex work would make money. Sex without consent isn’t about sex, its about power, and its rape.

      • Reschbach

        They would make lots of money! Keeping prostitution illegal is not about sex, it’s about power. Insecure women want to keep their men at home where they can control them, rather than let the men pay for something they are not getting at home. So, they influence the lawmakers to make it a crime for a man to pay for sex, and for a woman to accept money for sex. They exert power to fulfill their own insecurities, and to emasculate their men. American men are some of the most emasculated men in the world. They don’t have freedom to express themselves sexually. It’s a crime. It’s unconstitutional – the pursuit of happiness.

      • CollegeGrad

        Women aren’t innocent, who said they are? Why should they be excused, and all blame placed on “men”?

    • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

      Studies show that the vast majority of rapists have access to consensual sex. They don’t rape because they have no release, they rape because they choose to rape.

      • RE

        Studies show that there is less rape in places that have legalized prostitution. Maybe they need to do more studies. Or maybe the guys don’t have the $20 the “consent” costs!

        • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

          What studies are these? Do you have cites for them?

          • Reschbach

            Of course. A 25% decrease in rape seems worth looking into!

            Check out: prostitution.procon.org/​view.answers.php?questionID=000122

            and also: [PDF] Prostitution and Sex Crimes Kirby R. Cundiff
            Adobe PDF – View as html
            Given all of these problems, the analysis seems to support the hypothesis that the rape rate could be lowered if prostitution was more readily available.
            http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/​50_prostitution.pdf

            Do you need more?

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            Both of those links lead to “404 not found” messages.

          • Reschbach

            Try these:

            Would legal prostitution decrease sexual violence such as rape?
            “A study conducted in Queensland… show[ed] a 149% increase in the rate of … “Three cities which allowed open prostitution experienced a decline in rape after prostitution …
            prostitution.procon.org/​view.answers.php?questionID=000122 – Cached

            [PDF] Prostitution and Sex Crimes Kirby R. Cundiff
            Adobe PDF – View as html
            Given all of these problems, the analysis seems to support the hypothesis that the rape rate could be lowered if prostitution was more readily available.
            http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/​50_prostitution.pdf

          • http://elkballet.wordpress.com ElkBallet

            I can also link you to numerous studies showing that the opening of sex stores led to a large increase in rape rates, as well as many studies that show an increase after the opening of strip clubs. I don’t trust any of these studies showing either an increase or decrease as they are correlational and fail to take into account any other real factors. Correlation does not equal causation. Like it’s been said numerous times, people don’t rape out of horniness or because they are aroused, they rape to dominate and for power. So the only way prostitution could lower rape would be to transfer the rapes to the prostitutes. The only way the rapist could get a “fix” would be to take out rape on a prostitute, not to have sex to prevent rape. And seeing as prostitutes are real women too, it still would be the same numbers of rapes, just no one would listen anymore since people assume a prostitute can’t be raped.

            Further I can link you to numerous accounts from prostitutes saying they were brutally raped by clients numerous times and that is why they were hired. Not for sex, but for rape. There are also many studies showing that in places where prostitution is legal (for instance, Amsterdam) those brothels become fronts for illegal trafficking and become hubs of sex slavery.

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            Well said mooshrimp!

          • Reschbach

            As you said, you can’t trust any of the studies. There may be correlation but there is no causation. Sex slavery occurs in places besides brothels. NPR did a nice piece on it a while back. Trafficking is more about money than it is about sex.

            But, as you said, rape seems to be more related to domination and power, rather than to sex. It is not a problem with prostitution or pornography. Lumping these things together with rapists generalizes the rape problem into something that it is not. Find the rapists. They are the ones causing the problems. It is not the majority of men, or the prostitutes, or pornography that are causing the rapes. It is a small group of twisted, repeat offenders that have no respect for themselves or others. Find and punish them. Don’t punish all of society for the acts of a few.

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            The first site is literally a “Pro/con” site and has arguements against your case right beside the ones that support your case.

            The second is not a study, it is a paper written by a man playing theoretical mathematical games to support his hypothesis. It proves nothing. Citation FAIL!

            Here is a link to a piece written by a man who has studied rape, specifically acquaintance rape, the most common type of rape, for 20 years: http://www.caribbeanpartnershipagainstsexualviolence.org/Undetected_Rapist.pdf

            In this he cites most rapists have access to consensual sex.

            Here is an article that has a video with the author of that paper :http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/04/23/david-lisak-on-acquaintance-rapists-were-giving-a-free-pass-to-sexual-predators/

          • Reschbach

            Those prove nothing.

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            Why doubt someone who has studied rape for 20+ years? He seems to know what he’s talking about.

          • Reschbach

            As a victim, I’ve studied rape for 40+ years. I know what I’m talking about.

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            Oh really? You’ve studied rape and rapists and how and why they rape in a professional capacity like Dr. Lisak? And yet you still think that people rape because they don’t have access to consensual sex? Sorry I don’t buy that for even a moment.

          • Reschbach

            You might have to copy the title (1st line of the site) into your search engine. They should come right up.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrea-Rosen/5903283 Andrea Rosen

    This is one of the many reasons I went to a women’s college. And I loved it!

    • Anonymous

      My question is not meant to offend–but, do woman’s colleges have lots of lesbians. i would assume they do–and that sex still goes on–probably just not a lot of or no rape-but then women date men outside the school–and can still be raped–and maybe these women, not accustomed to living around boys, might be too naive and innocent…what do you think? Did you choose a woman’s college particularly to avoid partying and focus on study?

  • Jen2324

    I agree that online pornography leads to the ‘hook-up culture’ that then, under the influence of peer pressure and alcohol, can eventually lead to sexual assault. Not always, but it creates the right culture in which sexual assault can become normative. Not only are men affected by online porn–but women are too. The social norms re: our sexual habits, demands, expectations, and objections have all shifted as more and more of us watch online porn, either individually or (as is now often the case) together (both men and women). We need an alternate model of socializing young people about sex–what it means, how to have it, when to have it, with whom to have it, etc. We need to put sex in the context of relationships, communication, and becoming an adult–not alcohol, partying, and emulating the culture of porn that is becoming more and more pervasive throughout society.

  • Eemstewart

    I think some of this sexual abuse stems from insecurity and ignorance. As a parent of pre-teens I want to share with them what I learned from my parents, mixed with my experience and what social scientists know today.
    People used to fear masturbation and now we know that it is so common (even in previous generations) that it can be considered part of a normal life. From my parents’ traditional honeymoon and my own (varied) experiences I know that there is nothing wrong with virginity and most importantly there is nothing wrong with male virginity.

    In previous centuries married couples were not expected that have previous experience: the old fashioned wisdom was that young people with a little basic information would figure it out together and have good time doing it.

    Nowadays guys (and some young women too) get a lot of macho messages about the importance of experience but it is a myth. What matters is the love and respect the man and the woman have for each toher and taking the time to listen and try things together. Men who have gained a lot of experience in casual sex are often lousy lovers because they think it’s about their technique instead of communication. (This is why pornography doesn’t help and only confuses the matter).

    I want my children to know that it is okay to take their time – they won’t gain anything by rushing things

  • kimmy

    The truth is that we show others HOW to treat us. Also where are the rights women fought for? To society we are still property.

  • Mohammed52

    porn is not on line, porn is on your TV screens every day all day, porn is on Disney channel and Nickelodeon, read between the lines, from desperate house wives, to sex in the city, Ally McBeal, to any number of reality TV, it is women with just one goal in life, to get laid, this how we are socializing our men and women,

    • Anonymous

      There is a really good cartoon-Happy Feet with music and dancing penguins–it has a great message, but I had to smile at the sexual-pornographic nuances that slip into it as if by accident–penguins going down on each other and dog-style as they slip on the ice–in a college like high-school setting as they graduate from penguin academy. I think its natural to desire sex and have sex, but I was surprised to see it in kid’s movie–they probably wouldn’t consciously catch it or understand it, but maybe that’s what makes it so sinister–that it was meant to be subliminal. Check out Happy Feet. Otherwise, its a very good movie with a great message and I enjoy it tremendously. A part of me thinks its a good idea to be honest about it and teach our kids that it is natural and ok–ok in film.

  • Jessmorgan08

    HELLO the only thing that leads to the likelihood that someone will be raped IS THE PRESENCE OF A RAPIST. Stop blaming victims and being blind- if we know that 1 in 3 women will experience sexual assault or domestic violence in their lives, ONE IN THREE, in our country then obviously our culture tolerates violence. Stop convoluting the problem and make the choice to not tolerate violence. Apathy is a choice, too.

    • Anonymous

      I hear what you are saying, I like what you are saying, but i think what we are doing is is exactly what you say–analyzing our culture to see what makes it so violent and what creates a rapist, if anything.

  • Guest

    I was an RA in college. As a male RA on a Co-Ed floor, I had approach both male and female rooms where pornography was being viewed nearby rooms. I don’t think Gail Dines is even close to hitting this issue on the head. I had a female student on my floor attempt suicide because of rape. She was a twin and her sister was known on the floor for her promiscuity. Apparently because of her sister’s actions, there was an unfortunate and incorrect expectation that she was like her sister and when a male attempted to force her to do what her sister was known to do, she was the victim of a sexual assault. She didn’t report it because of the shame she felt and the dynamics of her relationship with her twin. She internalized it and it lead to a suicide attempt. At that point, myself, her sister and friends knew there was something deeper that she was hiding and the truth came out. I documented everything for Resident Life and a possible police report which unfortunately never happened. Not at any time did I think that the assault was based on a misguided youth who was turned to violence because of pornography. The students on my floor that were viewers of porn seemed to have a healthier and more grounded approach to sex and sexuality. I think for a man it is the expectation placed on a situation that makes him more prone to sexual violence. As was the case with the twin, when a man’s expectation is not accurate and it is discovered in the heat of passion, a man without a good sense of reason can be turned towards sexual violence. It is seen in bar scenes across college communities all over this country. Aggressive male who have been in a very similar situation before place an expectation that the same result will occur and when it doesn’t their aggressive nature tries to achieve their expectation not the reality of the situation. Now porn can misguide a male to set unreasonable expectations, but the reality is those males are as misguided as the 10 year old who thinks he can fly because Mighty Mouse does, or the 16 year old who tries a stunt in a car that trained professionals do in a movie. I would also like to state that it was my wife who as a girlfriend introduced me to pornography. Gail’s comments tonight seemed like a hack-job attempt at attacking a tangent issue and I think it really distracted from the heart of the debate tonight.

    • Anonymous

      I was introduced to porn at 6 years old. i watched it a lot as a child, very horny. But rarely as an adult or as a young adult, and I think I’ve had a healthy active sex life, and a healthy view of women. I have pursued the women question all my life–sociology classes, novels. I wanted to be the Renaissance man, the man that they consented to, but i also wanted to understand the human being as whole entity. Every man is a woman and every women is a man–what is masculine about a women makes her feminine and vice-versa. i was in a lot of monogamous relationships, always faithful. And i was always cheated on by women–women are not so pure–i was just not the right one for them at the time, vice versa. I like to try new things. i like sex. I have fantasies. I like to try them sometimes. But with a close partner, sb i respect, admire, and I am attracted to. So maybe I’m a case? Maybe porn isn’t that bad? However, when i was growing up porn was more alluring, and had a bit more class–sort of–more erotic, but today its very aggressive and raw and i dont think its erotic at all. its actually a turn off. i still like Debbie.

  • Pwwt

    one of the callers in to the show was a young man named mike. i think that, atypically, mr. ashbrook didn’t let him be understood. i am a mother of four kids – a son and three daughters. it seemed that noone was listening to what he was actually saying – even putting him down. young men are wrongfully accused – rare but true. also, i don’t agree with the two women guests who repeated many times that the “women are in it for the relationship and the men are in it for the sex.” Women may be in it (usually) for the relationship, but many young men want that connection, too. the guests mentioned they (or one of them) have sons. i don’t know the ages of the boys, but as a mother, have you had the experience yet of seeing your college aged son crushed by the loss of a girlfriend – his best friend? it is not helpful to “demonize” young men to make the point that our young women are hurt by some of them. please use your research in a way that helps both genders be the healthy, strong adult people they are meant to become. thank you.

  • Anonymous

    The comment on porn conditioning men to dehumanize women as sexual objects is true, and its also true that the women in most porn are consenting and enjoying hot intercourse. So we’re confusing boys. They’re taught that women want this as much as they do always and will consent because they ‘re always in heat, even if they wont admit it to themselves. Men and women are drinking. Most of the time men do not force women to drink. many women do actually drink just as men do to deliberately lower their inhibitions so that they will be more willing to be sexually active. Men do it to make it easier to approach women. Women do it to make it erase prudish barriers. But some men cant control alcohol ans some men are just monsters and it doesn’t matter if they are drunk or not–the alcoholic looses the demon–Jekyll and Hyde. I think many really do believe when a girl says no, she just being coquettish and really does want it. Even acceptable mainstream movies teach us this–Will Smith’s “Hitch” tells us women are just putting obstacles to their own happiness and really do want you (men), even if they think they don’t. There is some truth to “Hitch’s” message. But men are the same way. Women are too blame to some extent. They should not be putting themselves in such situations–unsafe environments. frat parties unescorted by close male friends, and female–just avoid frats. Frats should be abolished. And dont abuse drink. Women dress in provocative ways deliberately–they now what it does, tney know its too attract men, revealing cleavage and things and then they act surprised when men look and act offended or drunk boys cant control themselves, even after highly sexualized flirting. Then women act all innocent. They sexualize themselves-they dehumanize themselves–just look at all the pop music and Britaany spears and then they make poor decisions.

    This does not excuse these men-they are rapists. Some are not human. But lets be clear–some of these women dress and behave as sexual objects and then act surprised when porn-educated, immature, drunk male-instinctual animals treat them as sexual objects. All animals do. There is a strong element of misogyny in American culture and Hollywood and porno and pop music and college life and American institutions–but these stories and themes actually show us the women enjoy it. We are all warped and disfigured. Women are guilty, but the rapist men are violently guilty and criminal. But keep in mind young adults, adolescents, boys, and girls, are mentally, emotionally, and hormonally immature–they really do have less control over their bodies–add that to toxic culture and toxic drink and you got a cocktail.

    Its not entirely true to say women wake up with regret and men wake up to high fives. I remember listening to girls in the dorms bragging about they sexual adventures at frat parties and bragging about the slutty behavior laughing talking about male fluids in belly buttons that they were unaware of as they ventured back into the party, and oral sex, etc–all very vulgar. Women too treat themselves as sexual objects and treat men as sexual objects. In a way we are, we are sexual humans, animals.

    Build a culture of protection–women should always go escorted by m/f friends, and limit alcohol abuse, and button up that blouse if they feel they need to, if they don’t want to be treated as a plaything. Lets be honest–to show the flesh is an invitation for sexual advances–in a way it does say yes–that you at least want the advances. In many cases you don’t know who you are talking too–and drink is a drug that warps people’s sense of morality. You dance with the devil by the pale moonlight and then wonder why he was so mean to you. its in his nature. abolish frats. And put bars on campus where students can be closely supervised by campus security, teachers, more thoughtful and respectable students–a safe environment. In this way the school bartenders can cut off people who abuse drink. they will still get drink or drugs but this will limit most people’s behavior and they remain for the most part in a safe environment. maybe some parents are too prude and religious and never properly school their children in the ways of animalistic men and women, birds and the bees. the more open we are the more healthy we will be. The same can be said of alcohol–lower the drinking age, introduce alcoholic to the dinner table and family events and kids will be less likely to see it as forbidden fruit that they over indulge in when the cat’s away.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Aj-Droba/1347836542 Aj Droba

      As you say, “…some of these women dress and behave as sexual objects and then act surprised when porn-educated, immature, drunk male-instinctual animals treat them as sexual objects.” I think the emphasis here should be on “Porn-educated.” Many women think they are just being cute when they dress up (after all, they are just dressing like Barbie or Bratz or a movie star) and don’t realize how males are being educated to think of women. They think men and women are living in the same sexual world and they just aren’t. So, yes, they are surprised. Who’s to blame? Mostly, we who form the establishment are; the adults who want to sell and consume sex, clothes, music and porn etc. without being held responsible for what it is doing to young people. At a minimum we like to appear to be “liberated” and “modern” by not insisting on things like appropriate dress in the classroom, segregated sexes in dorms, curfews and other stodginess. But I do think men bear a special burden to the females in their lives; are the men telling their daughters, sisters, nieces and cousins about what they know other guys are thinking and doing? Men need to communicate how all this female sexual provocation affects them. Maybe then we could arrive at at unified front against the economic and social forces driving this destructive behavior in both sexes.

      • Anonymous

        i don’t think dorms should be segregated. I think we need to be more open, not more prudish about sexual nature. I think women and men need to be together to learn about each other. And regulating their clothing is a slippery slope, but yes maybe there should be some etiquette. And I’m not sure we are living in such different worlds. i do think a lot of women want sex as much as men, and some want it nasty. but they want to be respected and treated fairly and they want to be safe. Not all boys waste all their time watching porn–for some its just a passing phase or one off experience. The bottom line is universities create a safe environment for rapists and rape-culture. That needs to change. And some of these young girls need to be more respectful of their own bodies.

        and its mostly the really pretty ones who have discovered this new power over men away from home and deliberately tease and seduce and put themselves in the lions den. Attraction is a powerful drug.

        And hormones are raging at university. That’s natural. No need to crush it or deny it.

        i just think a safer environment is needed. However, there is still something sick in our culture. And I do think its mostly elitist men who think they have special privileges. in general i think working class educated people have more respect for women. And consider the type of people that join frats–very egotistical, testosterone raging, poor students, who go to college just for the endless party and it is a game to them–their objective is to conquer as many women as possible, and sometimes roofies and gang-rape are very much on the table. Administration needs to let faculty do its job and fail students who don’t come to learn–they should be in the library, not in the frat houses–sexual encounters would be more romantic anyways–not just drunken orgies of rape.

      • Anonymous

        i don’t think dorms should be segregated. I think we need to be more open, not more prudish about sexual nature. I think women and men need to be together to learn about each other. And regulating their clothing is a slippery slope, but yes maybe there should be some etiquette. And I’m not sure we are living in such different worlds. i do think a lot of women want sex as much as men, and some want it nasty. but they want to be respected and treated fairly and they want to be safe. Not all boys waste all their time watching porn–for some its just a passing phase or one off experience. The bottom line is universities create a safe environment for rapists and rape-culture. That needs to change. And some of these young girls need to be more respectful of their own bodies.

        and its mostly the really pretty ones who have discovered this new power over men away from home and deliberately tease and seduce and put themselves in the lions den. Attraction is a powerful drug.

        And hormones are raging at university. That’s natural. No need to crush it or deny it.

        i just think a safer environment is needed. However, there is still something sick in our culture. And I do think its mostly elitist men who think they have special privileges. in general i think working class educated people have more respect for women. And consider the type of people that join frats–very egotistical, testosterone raging, poor students, who go to college just for the endless party and it is a game to them–their objective is to conquer as many women as possible, and sometimes roofies and gang-rape are very much on the table. Administration needs to let faculty do its job and fail students who don’t come to learn–they should be in the library, not in the frat houses–sexual encounters would be more romantic anyways–not just drunken orgies of rape.

  • Zen

    Certainly and without question non consentual sex is an issue to be taken seriousy and must be punished severely. First though, it would seem if these on campus issues are fferent in a way to a rape on a street. Generaly isnt rape considered to be a crime of violence power and abuse ? That does not seem to fit in wth the motives of campus assailants. Second the coments about porn could not be more wrong, yes there are a small percentage of porn clips that do objectify and abuse women, however the majority of porn movies portray the woman as equaly enjoying the sex she in most cases is portrayed to want. Yes I can see how a confusing message could arise from this unrealistic portrayal of a womans sexual urges, but could it not also be said that massive insecurity and avoidance of sex could be created in men ? After all if you went by porn as a study you need ten inches and some serious “staying power” to satisfy a woman.

  • Personal Responsibility

    In most places if one of the members taking part in a sexual activity is impaired, drunk or otherwise, they cannot provide consent. It would be considered sexual assault for the other member to continue with a sexual act. However if both members are drunk it is only a race to see who can accuse the other of assault.

    I am not saying violent rape does not exist but these situations are a bit different.

    That being said, none of the women were dragged from their dorm rooms, forced to get drunk at a party, and eventually raped. Instead of trying to find and punish 21 year old men who got drunk along side these women at a party, there needs to be a level of personal responsibility expected from any potential victim. Students cannot accuse their school for their own lack of personal responsibility.

    How would it sound like this. Driver gets drunk and has a car accident gets injured. Driver(equivalent to the rape victims) sues his car’s manufacturer (= to school) for not making a car safe( i.e. hostile environment). Sounds stupid but it is the same argument.

    Every college has campus security and every college goes to great lengths to prevent any harm to students. However, for these measures to be effective, the students must make an effort to educate and protect themselves, and that includes not getting drunk in front of young, drunk, hormone driven men.

    In my opinion rapists are the scum of this earth and deserve no less than the maximum possible punishment available, but potential victims should take steps to avoid putting themselves in a vulnerable position.

    • Ginnyann30

      Wow. Victim-blaming central.

    • Jessmorgan08

      How do you distinguish who is a potential victim and who isn’t? That’s walking a dangerous line of assumption and judgment- the point of this entire conversation on On Point was to reflect on the overall culture of college campuses, but also is in direct response to Yale frat guys chanting “No means yes, yes means anal” if you don’t recall. That’s a direct assault, if you will, on consent.

      Also, a drunk driver is not equivalent to a rape victim- that is ridiculous logic. The person who is maimed or killed is the victim- their families and friends are victims.

      I agree with you Ginny- we’ve stepped into the Dark Ages and personal responsibility has, and always will be blaming the victim. This kind of violence is not about individual cases, its about a culture that accepts and tolerates, and administration that looks the other way.

    • http://www.facebook.com/ericnewberg Eric Reed Lorentzen-Newberg

      Your car analogy would only be the same argument if the car was sentient, purposefully sidled up to the drunk woman, enticed her in, and then when she said she wanted to get out, it locked its doors and drove into a tree.

    • Max

      Does this mean guys can get drunk but women can’t because it’s dangerous for them? (Not that anyone should be alcoholically impaired).

      And if “young, drunk, hormone driven men” are are dangerous enough that women have to educate and protect themselves, why are the said men allowed to be drunk? If the problem is drunken men, why aren’t they arrested for just being drunk? If it is the way you say it is, then maybe colleges should crack down on drinking parties.

  • Russ

    Studies have attempted to shift attitudes among boys and men regarding Rape Myth Acceptance (beliefs that blame the victim, absolve the perpetrator, and trivialize the violence), but few have been sustainable, and of those that have shown a sustained change in attitudes, no study has been able to show a change in behavior. Why? This is an issue that involves entire communities – it’s a culture, and if women and girls are not included in the model, no change will occur. While some may find it horrifying, many women may feel that if a woman drinks or puts herself at risk, they are being irresponsible. There is no excuse for rape, but we cannot ignore the glorification of sex and alcohol in college by both men and women. I am doubtful that what is occuring on college campuses around the country is the work of a handfull of men – 1 in 4 women experience rape in college! The math does not add up. This problem is widespread, and it begins and ends with the culture created on college campuses, and it does not involve a few bad apples; it involves us all, and we are all responsible. Until we all wake up and recognize our shared responsibility (both men and women) in creating this culture, the problem will continue.

    • Daisy

      Unfortunately, the math does add up. This study of 120 undetected rapists — men who told the researchers they had committed rape but had never been prosecuted — found that “A majority of these undetected rapists were repeat rapists, and a majority also committed other acts of interpersonal violence. The repeat rapists averaged 5.8 rapes each. The 120 rapists were responsible for 1,225 separate acts of interpersonal violence, including rape, battery, and child physical and sexual abuse.”

      http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/campus_assault/assets/pdf/Document5_Lisak_study.pdf

      One of the main reasons I believe in prosecuting and finding justice for rapists is because the data seems to show many rapists will rape again. These aren’t nice guys who misunderstood a sexual situation on a date…these are repeat offenders.

  • Pat

    I think that this program was excellent and much more of this kind of discussion needs to go on at college campuses and elsewhere. Women have been victimized throughout history and it continues in the relam of work (promotions and equal pay for equal work) as well as in personal saftey. I appreciated Ms. Dines also mentioning that men come up to her after her lectures asking for help because they know thieir porn habits have gone too far. I hope that there is help out there. I was very surprised however, Tom, when the young man called in at the end of the show and was trying to tell us something. Before his call there was a young lady who had been raped by her RA with the master key, and (very rightly so), you empathized with her – believed her. (It was horrifying.) When the young man called, you said to your guests something like, “Well, here we have a young man saying, I don’t know, that …he was wrongly accused.” Say what? Why would you believe the woman but not the man? Something went wrong on the show at some point and shifted from protect women into “attack” men. I can’t believe he was still trying to make a point politely when you and the guest (at least Ms. Edwards) were almost blatantly calling him a liar. Discussions held this way – where men are almost assumed guilty – is the exact thing we don’t need.

  • Pat

    I think that this program was excellent and much more of this kind of discussion needs to go on at college campuses and elsewhere. Women have been victimized throughout history and it continues in the relam of work (promotions and equal pay for equal work) as well as in personal saftey. I appreciated Ms. Dines also mentioning that men come up to her after her lectures asking for help because they know thieir porn habits have gone too far. I hope that there is help out there. I was very surprised however, Tom, when the young man called in at the end of the show and was trying to tell us something. Before his call there was a young lady who had been raped by her RA with the master key, and (very rightly so), you empathized with her – believed her. (It was horrifying.) When the young man called, you said to your guests something like, “Well, here we have a young man saying, I don’t know, that …he was wrongly accused.” Say what? Why would you believe the woman but not the man? Something went wrong on the show at some point and shifted from protect women into “attack” men. I can’t believe he was still trying to make a point politely when you and the guest (at least Ms. Edwards) were almost blatantly calling him a liar. Discussions held this way – where men are almost assumed guilty – is the exact thing we don’t need.

  • Pat

    I think that this program was excellent and much more of this kind of discussion needs to go on at college campuses and elsewhere. Women have been victimized throughout history and it continues in the relam of work (promotions and equal pay for equal work) as well as in personal saftey. I appreciated Ms. Dines also mentioning that men come up to her after her lectures asking for help because they know thieir porn habits have gone too far. I hope that there is help out there. I was very surprised however, Tom, when the young man called in at the end of the show and was trying to tell us something. Before his call there was a young lady who had been raped by her RA with the master key, and (very rightly so), you empathized with her – believed her. (It was horrifying.) When the young man called, you said to your guests something like, “Well, here we have a young man saying, I don’t know, that …he was wrongly accused.” Say what? Why would you believe the woman but not the man? Something went wrong on the show at some point and shifted from protect women into “attack” men. I can’t believe he was still trying to make a point politely when you and the guest (at least Ms. Edwards) were almost blatantly calling him a liar. Discussions held this way – where men are almost assumed guilty – is the exact thing we don’t need.

  • Anonymous

    The comments on this episode show that On Point needs to do a show that’s just about feminism, full stop. We need to re-start the discussion about women’s rights, and define a lot of terminology so that in the future, On Point listeners can have a common set of vocabulary terms. Hopefully this will lead to less misunderstanding and talking past each other.

  • Ferial

    Listening to this show yesterday evening I nearly drove off the road. Believe me, if I were spending $40K per annum to an institution that couldn’t offer my daughter minimum personal protection, I’d be in a litigious mood. It might make more sense to send her to prison for four years, where she could get free room&board and a free education on the side. When the prisons are safer for our daughters than universities, we’ve got a PROBLEM.

  • Anonymous

    Seriously, the amount of victim-blaming in the comments here, and the widespread refusal to accept the simple fact that rapists, not their victims, bear the responsibility for the crimes they commit, points to an urgent need for a more explicitly defined conversation about these issues. And don’t bring porn into it for the love of L. Ron.

    • Millfill

      I don’t think it is victim-blaming, but common sense. We don’t live in a perfect world.

      A similar analogy would be if I were to cross the street at a crosswalk, even though I have the right of way, I’d still look to make sure that no car is coming my way, or if it is coming my way, it slows down or blinks its lights to acknowledge that I’m trying to cross the street. That’s common sense.

      Of course, I do have the right to brazenly step out into the crosswalk without looking and expect that the speeding car would hit the brakes just in time and stop for me, or if it hits me, then the law is on my side and I can sue the driver and win – while I recuperate in a hospital bed with my feet in plaster, concussion and other sundry injuries.

      While looking at an issue through the lens of “rights” is not incorrect – and I’m not devaluing the concept of rights, it also makes little sense in the second scenario, when common sense and foregoing of my right – that pedestrians have right of way at a crosswalk – would be wise any way you cut it and would not result in negative consequences for me. A car and a pedestrian are not equal when it comes to consequences after a collision. A pedestrian would always lose in that scenario.

      You could argue that we should change the society so that the negative consequences of a repulsive act like rape are less for women and more for men (opposite of what it is now), and I’d agree with you, but what do you suggest we do till we reach that stage and make our world a perfect one where no person misbehaves?

      I can always change and control my behavior, but I have limited resources and little-to-no control over changing other people’s behavior. So, do I look at an issue through the lens of rights, or through the lens of consequences (to me) and try to minimize the negative consequences? Should women not learn self-defense techniques or martial arts so that they can protect themselves from a rapist or an attacker, since the rapist or attacker would be violating their rights?

      • http://elkballet.wordpress.com Mooshrimp

        If men in general are so little in control of their libidos and their actions that women have to treat them like irresponsible, speeding, or drunk drivers why are they permitted to be out around women?

        The “common sense” rape-apologists ask women to employ is basically to make absolutely sure that they make an effort to conceal the fact that they are women and only go out in public when absolutely necessary. Putting on the brakes is limited by physics. Not raping women is limited by how much the person wants to rape. If people began to ask men to do the same things to “prevent” heinous crimes against them, the world would stop spinning since no one restricts male privilege.

        This “common sense” that I’ve gotten in nonsense emails includes: not walking around with my ipod on, not walking around alone, not wearing anything that shows skin, not wearing anything remotely tight, not going out after dark, not going to parties, not being alone with men let alone kissing or being naked with them, scouting my car before I get in, not walking near vans, not walking near dark houses, making sure both hands are free at all times (so no carrying anything ever), installing extra locks on my windows and doors, paying a good chunk of my money on a security system I can’t afford, never removing my eyes from my drink even to look the other direction, making sure at least three people know where I am at all times, not dancing, etc… and even when women follow these things and imprison themselves, they still get raped and then get told they weren’t using their common sense.

        Further most women who were raped were raped by someone they know and frequently it’s in a situation that was already sexual. So in order for your argument of common sense to work, women are not allowed to be sexual with anyone ever, lest they are responsible for rape. In courts simply being alone with a man is usually viewed as consent. Where’s the common sense in that stupidity?

        There is no such thing as common sense when it comes to rape. The rapist chooses to rape. The brakes don’t choose not to stop.

        • Millfill

          Well then, your work is cut out for you, Moorshrimp – change the behavior of others. Let me know when that goal is reached and the world becomes perfect with all human beings behaving properly according to your script.

        • Millfill

          If men in general are so little in control of their libidos and their actions that women have to treat them like irresponsible, speeding, or drunk drivers why are they permitted to be out around women?

          I wish I had the answer to that question. Human beings (which includes men and women) are complex and act in unpredictable manner, as anyone who has ever been a relationship with another human being, knows very well. Maybe we still need to evolve to that next stage when all human beings will behave in a way that is harmless and anodyne.

        • Millfill

          BTW, where did you get the idea that I was being a rape-apologist? Did I anywhere say in my comment that men who rape shouldn’t be held responsible or accountable? Or do you have a reading comprehension problem??

          Instead of your pointless verbosity, answer this simple question: What concrete steps can you take to control the behavior of others and make this world – according to you – a perfect one where no rape ever occurs? Thanks.

          • http://profiles.google.com/greenfrog1978 Tad Ridgway

            It was all over your post. Mooshrimps post was well written and had a really great point that needs to be heard. There was no reason call it “pointless verbosity”.

          • Millfill

            “There was no reason call it “pointless verbosity”. “

            Tad,
            If you didn’t find it “pointless verbosity” (and good for you), doesn’t mean that I have to see it the same way as you did. I found it a pointless rant in the context of my comment, so I called it so. I didn’t say that everyone would find it pointless or has to agree with my perspective, so I’m not sure what exactly is your point.

        • Reschbach

          Actually, in most cases the rapist probably doesn’t choose to rape. They are driven to it by internal process formed long before, probably by a domineering mother, wife, sister, or other influential female in their lives (or from a previous life). They cannot stop themselves any more than an food obsessed person can stop eating junk food, or an alchoholic can stop from drinking, or a crack head can stop themselves from smoking crack, or a blog typer can stop themselves from reading and typing blogs!

          And, you have a lot of nerve suggesting that men should not be permittted to be out around women. Who died and left you to decide who gets to be where? Maybe a woman’s place is in the home, where she won’t put herself at risk. There might be something to that old adage.

          It is actually common sense for a woman to be: “not walking around with my ipod on, not walking around alone, not wearing anything that shows skin, not wearing anything remotely tight, not going out after dark, not going to parties, not being alone with men let alone kissing or being naked with them, scouting my car before I get in, not walking near vans, not walking near dark houses, making sure both hands are free at all times (so no carrying anything ever), installing extra locks on my windows and doors, paying a good chunk of my money on a security system I can’t afford, never removing my eyes from my drink even to look the other direction, making sure at least three people know where I am at all times, not dancing, etc…”

          Many men use those same common sense practices when in a situation considered “at risk”. It would be stupid not to. We are not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy! We are in a hard, hard world. Be careful, take care of yourself, and use common sense! If you have to carry something, make it a can of mace.

  • Ferial

    Oh and I daresay if male students were being victimized in the same way, by other male students, fueled by porn, and offering alcohol, there would be hell to pay.

  • AnnaSR

    This may be a pervasive problem on college campuses but I just want to point out that it certainly doesn’t begin with college. I’m a woman in my late 20′s with a friend who is a senior in high school. She was new to this particular school last year. She told me that some boys at the school were openly betting on who would sleep with her first. I’m not sure if I can think of an attitude more disrespectful to a person than that, but it would seem that that’s what many of our young women today are having to deal with coming from young men on a daily basis.

    • Millfill

      And it goes without saying that women would never do anything like that, or make similar bets.

    • Reschbach

      Maybe the boys at the school thought she was beautiful and desireable. She should have been flattered. Besides, it sounds like the bet was about who she would consent to sleep with. Maybe she should not wear makeup, wear conservative clothes, and hang out in the library so the boys wouldn’t think she is so attractive. Then, when she is older she can wear seductive clothing and become a prostitute.

  • Coalcorona

    I know my comment comes late in the game but…
    Note: Please do not misconstrue my comments below to mean that I don’t think the perpetrator should be held accountable. We all are and must be accountable for all of our thoughts and actions.

    I believe there to be a mentality around the action of rape–the taking advantage of another without conscience, absent of any compassion–that has permeated much of our world for centuries. The act of taking advantage of another without conscience, absent of any compassion occurs when there is an imbalance of power whether it is physically as in rape or through psychologically means. It has been ‘okay ‘for a more powerful country to go into another and take their resources–rape the country–without conscience or compassion for its people for how long now? We rape the Earth for anything from fossil fuels to what we call precious metals to water and air resources to soil to you name it. These take millenia to replenish. Without conscience or compassion–without thought–we claim we are doing it all for progress when in fact it is done almost entirely for the benefit of the few.

    When we claim we are acting in the interest of progress for all–yet benefiting only the few–it is a relatively easy step to justify nearly any means to that end rendering the victim as meaningless. In this kind of atmosphere the victim IS to blame because they stand in the way of progress whether they be the Earth, a country with sought after resources or the mind of a female that stands in the way of a male abusing the body of a female to ‘satisfy’ himself without conscience or compassion. In this atmosphere the victim not only has no say but they, as shown by the actions of the perpetrator, have no existence other than as an object for the use of the perpetrator to be then discarded. It is our sad state of affairs today where this very mentality permeates every aspect of our society creating the space for it to be ‘okay’ for males–mostly–to rape the often less physically powerful female–without conscience or compassion. Where is conscience and compassion anywhere in our public discourse?

  • Keith

    I talked to my son who attends a Catholic college where such things should not occur even more than that they should not occur anywhere and he confirmed every point of the hour’s show down to the watching porn in the common rooms. Hooking up is the norm not the exception and women have few avenues of recourse. Something needs to be done and I think it is the men who have to stand up for the women who seems as disenfranchised as when they could not vote.

    • CollegeGrad

      In this case Keith, it takes two to tango.

      Rape is unjustified, but be careful in defining it, lest you obscure the real issue and the poor women who have to suffer from actual rape.

    • Gidtanner

      Well , that your kid goes to a catholic college is a shame and condolences to him . Has the dean raped him yet ? You see , sending your child to a college run by a hateful cult is inexcusable .Did you consider a madrassa  ? Oh well .

  • Reschbach

    Bravo Yale males! Say what you want and think what you want. In the 1960s and 1970s the men would empty out of the men’s dorms and hundreds of them would crowd together and go to the girls dorms shouting “panties, panties, panties…!” They wanted the girls to give them their panties! The girls liked it and would throw their panties (and sometimes bras) out of the dorm windows to the men waiting outside. Until this sexually repressed society can provide an appropriate outlet for bottled up feelings about sex, these kinds of things will continue to happen. So, it’s ok. Political correctness has gone overboard to the point where a person cannot be themselves. It has come to the point where a man or woman cannot even express themselves, or say what they think or want, without being at risk for criminal behavior. Pretty soon a person will not be able to ask a member of the opposite (or same) sex for a date without being prosecuted! Communication, however crude, is still communication. Pornograpy is as old as the writings on the cave walls, where sex acts are clearly depicted. It is expression. It is human. Keep your Victorian morality to yourself – don’t inflict it on others.
    Rape is not ok.

    • Bored

      Blah…

    • Travis

      Your view of sex-positive feminism has done infinitely more to drive women into the ranks of the right, than religion has. You 60s bourgeois liberals make me sick. Women have a right to go to school without being sexually harassed.

      • Reschbach

        Who said anything about religion? Many young men know that if they want to find a woman that is interested in sex, they can go find some in the churches! There are horny women at church.

        And, you pussified conservatives make me sick. It is people like you that are making the USA into a Nanny State, emasculating men to the point where they are not even allowed to tell a woman that she looks nice. Believe it or not, some women want to be told they look nice. They like to be treated like a woman. They like to feel feminine. They want a real man, not some watered down girlie-boy. Not a little b*tch!

        But us making each other sick does not solve the problem. Believe it or not, men and women are different, physically and emotionally. It is time to celebrate those differences rather than act as if they don’t exist and making cry baby sounds about it if someone says differently.

  • That one dude, generally

    I first would just like to say that this conversation has completely generalized men and women. I am a 26 yr old male from Lou, Ky (prime candidate for a good stereotyping), one in which has had the opportunity to have sex with a very attractive woman that was very intoxicated and literally begged me to “take me back to my house and f— me”. I was not at a bar, (actually I do not drink at all) just happened to be walking to a show, and as I passed by a bar this fine lady walks up to me, puts her arm through mine and proceeds to walk with me leaving the bar that she was at. I ask who she is with, she says “you”,meaning me, I tell her ‘I am walking a little ways, would she like me to walk her back to the bar before I get too far away’, and finally getting far enough away I tell her it is her last chance, I will walk you back, but if you follow i can’t help you out.

    By the way, this whole time she was telling me that she loves me and all kinds of crazy stuff, and wanted me to walk her to her house, or a closer option, her sisters house where she wanted to have sex with me. Ahh!!! I’m a guy, and that’s great news right? A beautiful drunk woman who wants to have sex right now. Well, Tom, for all of your generalizing guests, they might want to hear this next part. I could have easily taken advantage of this girl, some would even say, ‘She was asking for it!’ But, being a good person who knows right from wrong, I decided against it, went to my show, left her about a mile away from the placed she originally joined my walk (remember, she was wasted and stumbley) and went home sexless, or “hook-up”-less. I have never ‘hooked up’ with anyone, period, and have only had sex with someone whom I was in a relationship with. No, I am not religious, and yes I love sex just like everyone else, but refuse to join this new model of ‘hookin up’.

    I just hate hearing people generalize the public like all guys are sex crazed lunatics, and all women dress like skanks because they would be invisible otherwise. Actually, I choose to ignore girls that dress like tramps because I know that there’s a good chance their self esteem is low and I don’t need that in my life. I like, and SEE women that are comfortable dressing casual, even when everyone else seems to be trying there best to get a tity to pop out.

    We exist Tom, WE EXIST!!!

    lots of love,
    One Man for Seeing Women

    • Millfill

      But what if some other guy had come along after you, and taken advantage of her? It was really irresponsible of you to leave her in her drunken state out on the street for any guy to prey on her. So it would have been your fault if she had been raped.

      See? That’s how the mind of a men-hating, feminazi (Gail Dines, for example) works – she would blame you (men) no matter what you did. You can’t win.

    • CollegeGrad

      Thank you, your story is a perfect illustration of why this discussion is out of control. I too, have been in similar situations more than once.

      Women – take responsibility for yourselves, and this argument won’t be nearly as outrageous as you’re making it out to be.

    • FreeLove

      Saying “I’m not the problem” does not erase the problem. Yes, most men are not going out and raping women on a regular basis, but with 1 in 5 young women sexually assaulted on college campuses, there is still most definitely a problem out there. Saying you’re not part of the problem doesn’t help to stop it. Recognizing we have a problem and denouncing those who perpetuate sexual violence is the first step in addressing the problem. We need more men like you who reject the modern idea of violent masculinity to talk about the alternative to the “Jersey Shore” model of what it is to be a man, and we need to stop acting like anyone trying to tackle the problem of sexual violence is attacking regular Joes who would never and have never raped a woman.

      • Millfill

        Sounds very much like the statement Eldridge Cleaver used during his 1968 presidential campaign: “You’re either part of the solution or part of the problem.”

        Or the more recent incarnation of this false dilemma by Bush when he spoke, “You’re either with us or against us.”

  • Laches11

    Please keep in mind that the offensive behavior at Yale was not rape or assault, but offensive chants and stolen t-shirts.

    What bothers me is the hypocritical, hyperbolic, emotional, and completely-over-the-top attitude of some feminist women. They resort to spin, exaggeration, and plain lies to justify their beliefs.

    “No means no.” Obviously, this isn’t always true. Kate Fillion in Lip Service estimates 1/3rd of women have said “no” when they did not mean it.

    “Pornography causes sexual crime.” There is evidence that access to porn actually reduces sexual assault.

    “A woman cannot consent to sex if she has had alcohol.” But if he also has had alcohol, why is it that he is absolutely responsible? Why does alcohol relieve only women of responsibility?

    “Women rarely falsely accuse men of rape.” There are several studies indicating false accusations could be around 40% of all rape cases.

    “Rape is not sex, but violence.” Clearly, it is both. But one usually hears this line whenever a woman’s sexual appearance enters the discussion. It is another aspect of the continuing attempt to absolve women of all responsibility. We all know lipstick, makeup, etc. is sexual when it is on a 5-year-old girl, why can’t we admit it is also sexual on a 20-year-old woman? Why do we allow women to be sexual in the workplace and at school, but if a man tells a sexual joke, it is harassment?

    Much of men’s obnoxious behavior at Yale occurred near the Women’s Center and the Take Back the Night Rally—two bastions of this feminist attitude. (I would call it a misandrist attitude.) Perhaps men’s obnoxious behavior is their way of fighting against this anti-male sexism.

    Rape, sexual harassment, etc. are complex problems. They will not be solved by feminist denial and misandry.

  • Anonymous

    Excerpts from “The Sexual Harassment Quagmire: Digging Out With True Equality” at http://battlinbog.blog-city.com/the_sexual_harassment_quagmire_digging_out_with_true_equali.htm

    When a man compliments a woman at work, he often does so merely to foster harmony, as he might do with another man. If he is interested in her romantically, he may compliment her to show not only that he likes her, but also to test out her responses to see whether she is receptive to a request for a date. Such “testing-out” compliments have long been how men try to open the door to a courtship with a woman. But since the Ninth Circuit Court in 1991 expressed the view that even well-intentioned compliments can form the basis for sexual harassment claims, some men in the workplace have shifted from testing women out with words of appreciation to avoiding them as much as possible.


    Suppose men announced to women, “We men have decided that it is women’s role, and only women’s role, to raise the children. Even though we want children as much as you do, we men will take no part whatsoever in the role of childrearing.”

    Suppose men added, “We will never acknowledge when you do well in your role of caring for children. Our only feedback to you will be to criticize you when we think you take care of the children improperly or make them angry. We will then call you ‘abusers.’”

    Women would feel this is sexism compounded with cruelty. Feminists would not be amused in the least by women’s being stereotyped as potential abusers.

    Imagine, then, how men might feel (if only more men felt free to express how they feel!) when they realize this: Feminists, by fixating only on sexual harassment outside the context of all male-female flirtations and courting interactions in the workplace, have in effect said to men, “It is your role, and your role alone, to initiate sexual relationships even though women want them as much as you do. It is your role to take the roughly 150 initiatives (and the attendant 150 risks of rejection, the effect on the male pysche of rejection’s constant threat having not piqued most social researchers’ curiosity) that Warren Farrell says must on average be taken to move a relationship from first eye contact to first sexual contact. We do not want women to take any part in this except to say yes or no to your initiatives. Moreover, we will not commend you when you perform this role correctly and every day countless good relationships result. Our only feedback to you will be to denounce you when we think you ‘do it wrong.’ We will then call you ‘harassers.’”


    Many feminists say the childcare problem cannot be solved until men equally share the responsibility for raising children. To my knowledge, no feminists say sexual harassment cannot be solved until women equally share the responsibility for initiating romantic male-female relationships.


    Although many women complain when men persist, many others complain when men don’t persist. Oprah- and Dr. Phil-style talk shows feature topics like “Women Upset Because Men Didn’t Call Back”! Sadly, men are put between a rock and a hard place – criticized when they overdo the pursuing, and criticized when they underdo it. Meanwhile, no one seems to understand that pursuing and calling back are women’s responsibilities, too.

    • Tinastillwell

      And what does this have to do with rape? I do not think any feminists argue that men are solely responsible for initiating relationships, would you mind siting your sources of information where feminists are saying this?

  • Luke

    Women should be encouraged to take these cases to court, as hard as it is for women to come forward already. Sexual Assault and Rape are criminal acts, and it seems that colleges for whatever reason — publicity, this being done by legacy/wealthy students — are not ideal arbitrators of justice.

    If these cases were taken into courts of law, it would certainly have a deterrent effect. These college disciplinary boards are absolutely toothless.

  • Millfill

    And then we have women like Eve Ensler who are placed on a pedestal by the gullible, without much critical analysis.

    “The Vagina Monologues includes a section entitled “The Little Coochie Snorcher that Could”. This portion of the play, as originally performed, has been criticized for including a rape scene of a 13-year-old girl by a 24-year-old woman who uses alcohol to lower the inhibitions of her victim.[6] At the conclusion of the segment, the narrator (the grown-up thirteen year old girl) fondly reminisces about the rape, claiming that it helped to nurture her and help her grow as a woman, and finishes the play with the line, “If it was rape, it was good rape”. The segment received criticism not only for depicting any rape as “good”, but also for forming a double standard, as elsewhere in the play, male-on-female rape is depicted as not only inexcusable but the ultimate act of violence against women.”

  • Edden

    Adults and those who really care about trying to stop rape, tell the boys in your care not to rape, don’t assume ‘they’ll ‘know not to’. Sex with another human being, no matter how much you would like to have sex with that human is not an entitlement. Don’t badger them to have sex with you. They don’t owe you an explanation for not wanting to have sex with you. Most parents don’t even have the ‘sex talk’ because it’s too uncomfortable so they delegate it to others. “Oh yes…sex…why you can learn it all on the internet, or your physically and emotionally abused peers who are also learning about sex from the internet and other sources I don’t even know about! Whew, that was close.”
    I see a lot of angry mothers and fathers out there. They scream and rage at each other and often become physically aggressive toward each other. You must stop this. You are setting examples for your children. Stop screaming at and verbally abusing your children. Stop spanking, hitting and using other forms of violence to ‘discipline’ them. All you are doing when using these methods to control and modify their behavior is to condition them to believe that being verbally harsh and using physical aggression to get what they want is a viable option. You are creating a potential rapist, because this ‘option’ may carry-over into their sex life.

  • http://profiles.google.com/matthewnelson0 Matthew Nelson

    I would like to pose a question as a College student focusing on alcohol and how it plays into sexual violence in the college environment. Now I won’t tell you where I go or my year, but I can say I attend a very competitive school with a large, diverse, and generally well-off student population. I have been to a fair number of parties, though I am not a “frat boy” by any means, I generally go to about one each week with friends who are girls. As such, I feel some responsibility for those who I go with. I watch their drinks, keep tabs on how many they’ve had, and always walk them as a group back to their dorm or house. Now I have never tried to “make a move” on one of my friends or any girl at a party, partly because I don’t find drunkenness appealing, but because it just doesn’t feel right. I am not particularly tall or large but to be honest if I wanted to I would have no trouble taking advantage of a young woman.

    With that out of the way, I’ll actually ask the question now:

    “At what point does a women’s choice play into a rape?” Not specificially if she wanted it or something narrow-minded like that, but if she could have prevented the problem from ever arising.

    Here are my thoughts. I have talked to many different female friends about if they feel safe, and most say they do. I have had to carry a friend home after she almost passed out and was suddenly revealed of the contents on her stomach on her way to a guy’s car nobody in our group knew. He left her sleeping on the porch and luckily I saw the whole thing go down. The next day, she actually said that she had a good time. At a point, you have to consider that it is a personal choice to get into potentially compromising positions. When we look at college parties, all people seem to talk about is how some guy is always “feeding her drinks” or “looking to score with some drunk chick.” I have two friends who pre-game like they’re frat boys. Coming to parties as drunk as many people will leave. It is a personal decision to drink. I have no aversion to drinking and enjoy it as much as anybody else, but I also understand how much I can drink and how it effects me. I feel that in a college environment where most of the responsibility regarding sex is placed on the men, we need to be just as critical of the women.

    This is not some stupid argument about how “she was dressed like she wanted it” or that “she deserved it because she was acting like a —-,” but a critical examination of her decisions up to that point. Rape is never ok, ever. But maybe when we see how “hostile” college is for young women and examine the dangers of sexual abuse, we should at the same time look at what they are doing to defend themselves before they even need to be defended. Just as men need to protect themselves from accusations and entering in potentially compromising positions where a women’s ability to say yes is in question, we need to take another look at how she got to that point and if she took some kind of steps. Maybe then, we can combat rape from both sides, not just through teaching self-defense and awareness of the issue, but through good decision making to prevent her from ever having to use those self-defense classes.

    Thank you all who actually read this, it took a few drafts to get my point across clearly. I am not addressing random sexual violence but here is a statistic some people would find supportive of my focus: 84% of the women who are raped knew their assailants*. Take it as justification that rape is something that is rarely random, and thus much more avoidable then people seem to think. I would never say it was someone’s fault that she was sexually assaulted, but I think many could be avoided if we attack the issue as a joint effort. Not just chastising men or blaming women, but teaching how to avoid the situation all together and thus working to eliminate the issue before it ever happens.

    *Koss, M.P. (1988). Hidden Rape: Incidence, Prevalence and descriptive Characteristics of Sexual Aggression and Victimization in a National Sample of College Students. In Burgers, A.W. (ed.) Sexual Assault. Vol II. New York: Garland Publishing Co..

    Edit: Tried using BB-Code for italics and that didn’t work. (no textual changes)

    • Tina

       Matthew.

      I want to pose a question in response to your post. Why is “rape prevention” targeted only at women? Women have to worry about so much more than men in our daily lives and then to say, “well most women can avoid rape through these several techniques.” Do you see how men and women do not enjoy the same freedoms? And then to not target men with rape prevention is absurd. The question you need to ask is what can men and women do to prevent rape culture and rape from happening in society. Also, I find it puzzling that you use the statistic of acquaintance rape to prove the point that women can avoid rape more easily. I think it is the opposite. Most women are raped by people that they know, trust and feel comfortable around…making it more difficult for women “anticipate” rape… Men do not need to “protect from accusations” they need to PREVENT RAPE AND RAPE CULTURE.

  • Twinklekote

    I just listened to the show and there was a moment I couldn’t help but cringe at. Besides Tom seeming uncomfortable about the subject, he at one point asked Annette exactly what had happened to her. She was the woman whose RA had let himself into her room with a master key. She had explained her story alluding that some form of inappropriate behavior on the RA’s part took place. Then Tom wanted more details as to whether it was rape, attempted rape, etc. I’m sorry but I think that was just out of line. If the woman had wanted to say it, she would have. This situation should be seen with more sensitivity. Annette goes on to apologize she hadn’t made that clear, but all I could think wad that that point was not the issue and shouldn’t have to be so specific. Maybe a part of her didn’t want to admit it on such a forum. I just get the feeling Tom really has a hard time with this issue as far as his approach goes. I hope he rethinks this.

  • Heidi

    There are so many men defending rape on these comments that I wonder if the figure of 1 in 4 women being raped is a little low. Do you guys really not understand what consent is? I have a lot of male friends and I really don’t think any of them are stupid enough to accidentally rape a woman. I don’t think this because rape is not about being stupid and it is not about an unfortunate accident. If I were trying to have sex with a guy and he said no or was completely incoherent, I would not have sex with him anyway. I would not force him to have sex with me. That’s preposterous! you might say for any number of reasons. But, just imagine it. All right, maybe you can’t. Have you heard about prison rape? Imagine that then. Imagine having a guy inside of you when you have told him no. Or, imagine it when you are drunk out of your mind and didn’t know what was going on. Suddenly you wake up out of your stupor and realize someone you barely know is sticking themselves inside of you. Imagine it. It is a nightmare and can cause you to feel shame and embarrassment for a very long time, for most of us, the rest of our lives. Ask your female friends about it, see what they say. Recently I’ve heard two close male friends who are shocked about how much abuse – physical, sexual, psychological – women have to go through in their lives. This has nothing to do with the word “feminism.” It has to do with respecting females as fellow human beings. I hope that your mothers have at least taught you that much.

  • Stonewindow

    I found the two guests using mostly stereotypes and shallow in their comments. I wish you had invited Susie Bright, Violet Blue, Emily Morse, Dan Savage, Kidder Kaper or some other more sex positive expert.

    I have two daughters, 15 and 21. They are both comfortable in their own skin. No tramp stamp tattoos or sleazy clothing. I don’t think Gail Dines comments help as much they stereotype.

  • Guest

    Listened to this on podcast. Lots of it doesn’t stack up. One example. Dorothy Edwards wants to make it seem as if her advocacy-driven “findings” have the stamp of authority given them by hard data. Yet she herself throws out a phrase such as “numbers like one in four or one in five,” as if there is no difference between the two. Such sloppiness makes one think that the numbers don’t actually exist, something we’ve seen too many times with advocacy-driven issues. She then subscribes to Lisak’s declaration that a small number of men on a given campus are serial offenders who account for these crimes. But how can these two claims be reconciled? How can a small handful of men account for assaulting 25% of the female students? Not possible.

    There clearly are problems on campus. But exaggerations and scare tactics are only going to undermine the credibility of those who are advocating for women.

  • meccah crabtree

    i’m a domesstic victim survior!

  • Vrdomingo

    first of all i have a question?? to what extent is sexual harassment?
    although i perfectly understand that it is very important to take this into consideration because it could be one member of my family or friend who es been rape. at the same time, campuses are a cluster of students from different culture and background. me for example i am an international student and in my culture i was educated differently how to treat a woman. to illustrate my point for better safer campus i think we have to begin with parents they have the responsibility to educate their kids and put restriction on explicit media. for example as Gail dines said in the show we are living in society where kids are being expose to explicit media at a very young age both men and women therefore when they yet older have learn that it is ok to touch a woman without her consent.

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  • Cabmanjohnny

    From what I’ve seen, most of the campus student population consist of women. Perhaps this concern about male sexual threats and or harassment could be solved by all female schools. Surrounded by 12′ tall  razor wire topped brick walls, security sidewalk checkpoints, total camera coverage, and armed female Blackwater security guards. With men thus out of the picture, some other threat would have to be conjured up for protest and coffee conversation; like potential male threats in the off-campus ( out of the compund) bars and clubs each weekend. My bad.

    • jp

      You’re not bad, just stupid.

      • Cabmanjohnny

        You’re too serious,the topic is silly. 

  • e.g.

     A couple issues with this show:

    1.  It is framed with the words, “Sex and college are hardly strangers to one another.” [Transition to rape.]  This strikes me as something like, “Well, wrestling has long been a sport on American campuses. But there is a new surge of complaints about murder …”  

    2. Mr. Ashbrook’s follow-up question that his feminist guest might not tolerate “unprettiness.”  U-N-P-R-E-T-T-I-N-E-S-S.  Unprettiness.  

    Still trying to wrap my head around this.

    3.  When a guest is describing the brutality of the crime, Mr. Ashbrook says, “Okay, okay …” in a tone that implies, “We’re willing to talk about this, but we’re not REALLY willing to talk about this …” 

  • Lagoodhue

    As a mother of 3 boys ages 7-14, I am very concerned about the hyper-sexualized culture they are entering as teens & soon as young adults.  I’d love to hear more from Gail Dines.  Her points about our cultural complicity in limiting girls’ perceptions of what it means to be attractive and of porn as providing the majority of sexual education to boys were right on — the tip of the iceberg for so many other discussions.  Thanks

  • barent johnson

    a lot of women are not going to like what i am going to say,  but there is a lot of sexual imposition on young men by young women. and if the guy says no,it can often lead to ridicule. this issue is almost always presented in a unilateral, one gender on another construct.  the nuance of male psychology is rarely ever explored,so it becomes a one sided free for all,and god forbid anyone try and humanize the guys,while taking a deeper more objective look at the hyper-sexualized enviornments that are college campuses,and how that can be an alienating and intimidating for males and females alike, who are not all ready for such an atmosphere. not to mention,how much of a distraction from studies this can be. it is not as if a lot of this does not exist in conjuction with a party time atmosphere,and yes, at ivy league schools also,surprize surprize. the aggresive males have to dealt with severeely no doubt,of course,but let us not pretend that there aren’t a lot of grey areas here. human interaction by definition is full of grey areas.  a lot of women enjoy playing the “no might mean yes”, seduction game,so let us not pretend that everything is so clear and out in the open. there has to be a larger discourse here. otherwise it becomes the same shrill one sided demonization of young men,and deification of young women. making change very hard, because fast and easy political expediency,take on a narrow hard minded life of its own.

  • barent johnson

    i think a lot of the young women today, know the emotional limitations  of “hook up” sex, and often welcome that. i’m talking cosensual here,not rape. the notion that all these girls are looking fo a knight in armour,or the guys just seeking cold blooded sex is absurd. gail dines, is trying to superimpose a victorian template, on current western sexuality.  she is presenting something close to a caricature,that i feel, confuses the issue for everyone.

  • barent johnson

    i’d like to know when in the hell did we ever have a natural developmental exposure to sex in this country. are you kidding me ?!  there is no place in the world where the pruriant and the prudish war with each other the way they do in the u.s.  what are you talking about dorothy edwards. our problem, is that, the real reason that porn is prevalent, is, that inspite of all the libertine excess crazy stuff going on,there is still a taliban like right wing fundamentalist ethos around sex here. and of course some of the most kinky people, are conservative politicians who engage fast and easy denunciation of others,while carring on with underage “very live” boys.  this program is incredibly simplistic and limited in scope tom ashbrook.

  • barent johnson

    for better or worse men will look at porn.  and it is known, that the vast majority of men do not like violent porn. the linear escalation into violent porn, that gail dines seems to be alluding to, is only true for a very small percentage of men.

  • Gidtanner

    I see the upset comments about the shallowness of the program but isn’t ‘shallow Tom Ashbrook’s specialty ? AND , isn’t shallow the standard for NPR since they decided to cater to rightwing congress people . Now NPR is aping AM talk radio from about 15 years ago ,before it became an outlet for the outraged FOX audience .Who knows how long before it goes all the way to serving only the mentally challenged rightwing .
      Since NPR does not want to offend the rightwing nut job population , it merely mealy-mouths every topic it addresses . Now it has become part of the supposed balance media , that converts everything into two sides , with no nuance .

        Since NPR wants to avoid controversy , it has become irrelevant . Another victory for tea-bagger types .

  • wellspring

    Our world culture towards women has always been mysogynistic (sp)
    We can thank the men in our history who manipulated religion to ensure
    control over women in every way.  They are either a virgin or a whore.
    The National Crime Statistics have completely eliminated the numbers
    of women/girls who said they were sexually assaulted simply because
    no charges could be filed because they could not find or convict the 
    criminal.  So the real numbers aren’t even close or usable.  It is far beyond 1 in 4 or 5.  Here is another thought….and
    take some time before you respond….Osama Bin Laden’s battle is 
    not about religion, but it is about seeing the free world infringe on his
    most powerful possession….control over 50% of the population…women.  Even he lied to himself about that.  Didn’t they
    find porn on his compound along with 5 wives/girlfriends.  C’mon people
    let’s open our eyes, speak up and often about this topic that is most
    uncomfortable to most so we can get over thinking of it as shameful to
    even talk about.  Talk openly ladies…..and men……about what has
    happened to you, by whom, and feel no shame because that was about
    them.  The silence protects the criminal and breeds their opportunities.
    My sister’s were sexually assaulted by my father.  He tried with me
    and I slapped him.  I told on him to my mother and then it ended.
    My mother told my sister that my Dad said she liked it.  She was 6 or 7.  He’s dead now.  Many of my friends have had assaults that ranged from rape to groping to the other creepy one “covert.”   Speak up to your kid and be open, use the words even though it is difficult and let 
    them know their power.   

    • barent johnson

      what you are saying has a lot of truth to it. but implicit in your remarks, whether intentional or not, is a generalized view of men, as a monolithic horde, of demonic miscreants. men are the victims of this tragic patriarchal sysstm as well. we’re not all, by virtue of our genitalia,conected to the wealth and power levers, of the men who are the power brokers,nor, do many of us want to be. i am pretty tired of this mindless indescriminate anti-male sort of nonsense. you create a zero-sum us versus them idelogical entrenchment, that implies, that if you are for one,you are of necessity against the other,nonsense! i was sexually abused by a male tutor,and emotionally incested by my mother. i don’t now turn around, and then presume all men, and or women, to be inherently  bad or evil. the cultue is also antagonistic, or androngynistic, if you will, towards boys and men who are empathetic and caring. some of the worst enemies of these boys/men are other men,and not a few women also.  we’ve got to move beyond, the simplistic gender paradighm, of,men are this, or women are that. if not,we will forever be caught in circular logic going nowhere. forgive me,but too many women, have become cozy with the notion, that a woman is always okay till proven otherwise,while men are a pressumed pathology. 

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  • 228929292AABBB

    I was in College, and I was in the Army. When men are bored they get stupid ideas about women no matter where they are. Increase the academic rigor. When 46% of college grades aren’t ‘A’ the lads there will have some studying to do and you will have less of all sorts of trouble. “put the students to the test, C’s for some and fail the rest’

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