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Life Stages In Literature

What Twain, Woolf, Roth, Morrison and more tell us about growing up and growing old.

Morning, Noon, And Night.

Morning, Noon, And Night.

We can go through life with such a terrible poverty of self-awareness.  A poverty so deep we do not possess our own lives.  Youth is a blur.  Middle age can be a grind and old age, a brutal humbling.

But turn to literature – great literature – and awareness is there, says my guest today.

From Huck Finn on the river to King Lear at his end. Toni Morrison’s Sula. Virgina Woolf’s day-dreaming mother.  The stories and insights to place us, ground us, in our own lives.  Literature can get at the heart of what we’re doing and the experience we share can be illuminated.

This hour On Point: Growing up and growing old, in literature.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests

Arnold Weinsteindistinguished professor of Comparative Literature at Brown University and author of  “Morning, Noon, And Night: Finding the Meaning of Life’s Stages Through Books.”

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Excerpt: “Morning, Noon and Night: Finding the Meaning of Life’s Stages Through Books”
By Arnold Weinstein

Morning to Noon

The Language of Childhood

How to write about growing up? As children, especially as young children, we are too busy actually growing up to be able to put this experience into the distanced and interpretive frames of language and narrative. Not only are the great stories about childhood always written by adults looking back, remembering, perhaps inventing, perhaps fantasizing, but childhood itself might best be understood as an adult construct, a retrospective adult project. For starters, what would be the language of childhood? The French writer Georges Bernanos, late in his life, seeking to visualize the entry of his soul into the afterlife, saw himself as child-”l’enfant que je fus”-as the deadest of his dead, yet leading the way, even though irretrievable. And on the far side of words. Is it too much to claim that language itself is the price we pay for leaving childhood, the conversion of wonder into grammar? Or could we, alternatively, see language as prize, as central attainment and means of empowerment in the process of growing up?

These matters are at once primitive and abstruse. Anyone who has seen the vibrancy of children at play senses the gap (in beauty and power) between “being” and “speaking.” And that may be the least of it, for language also heralds a regime of deferral and translation. The immediacy of experience is exchanged for the mediation of words. We exit the Garden into a realm of signs. Consider, in this regard, the young Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who saw his fundamental life crisis in just these colors. Retelling his life from the vantage point of age and retrospect (in Les Confessions), Rousseau recalls the life- altering episode of a stolen comb. A stolen comb? Yes, stealing a comb is what the child is wrongly accused of doing, but when he passionately argues that he is innocent, he is not believed. You may ask: Where’s the crisis? I repeat: He says he is innocent, he is not believed. This is no less than the entry into language as facticity, language as unreliable conduit. “There ended the serenity of my childish life,” he writes; words are a broken bridge, our hearts cannot be read.

But the other side of this equation is no less crucial: language as empowerment, language as means of comprehension and agency, language as indispensable tool for growing up. We will have occasion to see that the most “successful” figures in my study, the ones who manage best to make their way into life, whether it be by overcoming adversity or understanding the nature of culture (the culture that contains them), enlist words as one of their chief resources. We will see this writ large, as it were, in the trials and exploits of figures like the pícaro Pablos, Faulkner’s Ike McCaslin, and Alice Walker’s Celie.

Further, what would we know about the lives of others if it were not for the written record, the vital transcription of experience into language? Our most precious accounts of childhood, of the experience of growing up and making our way, come to us by way of writing. Writing not only ensures the communication of this key phase of life, it is the tool that enables us to give shape and meaning to it, to retrace it, to convert its quicksilver into cadences and form. Writing eludes (as nothing else does) time’s entropy and erasure, so that the depicted childhood of, say, Rousseau or Dickens or Proust still shimmers in its immediacy (and in its mix of terrors and errors) while those men’s bones moulder in the earth. But that is the least of it: the stories of growing up, bequeathed to us by literature, partake of the miraculous plenitude proper to narrative: they are big with time, awash in culture, so that they yield an echoing script that not only captures the child’s experience but also signals much more: the gathered familial and cultural vectors whose weave inhabits the mind of the child and the foreboding temporal curve to come, as the child leaves childhood and enters the adult scheme. Through the narratives of childhood, the accounts of the voyage from morning to noon, we access something no photo, no single utterance can express: at once an unfolding of human potential and a peculiar map of private and public destiny, interwoven.

Childhood: Romantic Construct?

And more still: we see, thanks to the optic of these books, the elemental shock that the adult world, with its peculiar rituals, routinely inflicts on the young, and this is tonic, for it is what we adults have stopped perceiving for some time now. Aided, we now see the ticket we bought long ago for admission to “reality.” As readers, as thinkers, as folks with miles to go before we sleep, we’re already positioned on the far side of this dividing line, ousted from innocence and locked into experience, as William Blake would have put it, but for a precious while-as we negotiate, say, the poetry of Blake himself or the novels of Dickens, Twain, and Faulkner-we breathe another air and grope toward an earlier self. Literature restores to us the most moving chapter of our life-the truly kinetic time when everything was mobile, the time before things made adult sense, perhaps the only time things actually made real sense.

Or did they? It is well known that our current ideas about childhood as precious are profoundly inflected by the tenets of Romanticism, which did much to single out that special time of life as special: unspoiled, innocent, closer to nature, formative, holding in potential all that we might conceivably become or destroy. This discovery of the purity and preciousness of children is doubtless related as well to the increasing socioeconomic exploitation of them as it occurred in the Industrial Revolution of precisely that time period, as if to show that the value of young lives only becomes visible when those same lives are at risk and under attack. (Blake provokes along just these lines.) Here would be a belatedness hardwired into our thinking: it is damage that instructs.

But go further back than nineteenth-century Romanticism, and you find nothing so sweet or so value-laden. There was no mystique about children then. Their (virtually invisible) fates could be arduous indeed. As we saw, Oedipus the King traces such a fate, but Sophocles is not interested in child measures, only in adult measures. One is struck, in reading literature from antiquity to the nineteenth century, by the harshness and marginality of children’s lives, and it seems essential to pay heed, today, to those earlier, sterner accounts. Shakespeare and the authors of the seventeenth-century picaresque and baroque tales and eighteenth-century writers such as Abbé Prévost and Pierre Choderlos de Laclos had little interest (or belief) in angelic children, nor did they believe that the child was “father to the man,” as William Wordsworth famously put it in the following century. Even later writers who believed in the sanctity of children-the Brontë sisters, Dickens, Dostoevsky, Twain, Ibsen- surprise us with their findings, not merely about the vicious treatment children often received but also about their liabilities, vices, and blind spots. Of course, moderns such as Kafka, Faulkner, Ralph Ellison, and Toni Morrison and figures of our own moment are acutely aware of the ideological forces that not only beset children but also “compose” them, bleed into them as the work of culture, thus making us see that the consciousness of children is inflected by all manner of things beyond their ken.

Age of Children

In examining the suite of growing-up stories to come, many of them brutal and dark, I am concerned with illuminating the coming-of-age drama that each contains. Coming of age is of course a conceptual as well as somatic or temporal proposition, and we rightly see it as a kind of education, a movement toward understanding and maturity. What kind of education, understanding, and maturity? That is what these materials so richly display. Let me first clarify that my terms “childhood” and “old age” are not strictly age-specific. Faulkner’s Benjy (in The Sound and the Fury) is only a few years younger (thirty- three) than Joyce’s Leopold Bloom (in Ulysses), who is all of thirty- eight, yet I regard Benjy as a child and Bloom as man growing old. My reasons are simple: Benjy is constructed as an idiot who possesses no powers of ratiocination and is thus permanently infantilized, but Bloom sees himself as crucially past his prime, mindful of a more vibrant but long-gone past, obliged to find gratification via substitution. Each depiction is wise in lessons for us, regarding how life is parsed at distinct phases of our trajectory. Indeed, each is cued to a past that cannot be recaptured, but Benjy does not know this and Bloom does. One is permanently arrested on the front side of life, whereas the other reflects incessantly on his belatedness. We see (frozen) childhood and (reflective) old age in these postures.

Yet I am all too aware that growing up and growing old can-indeed, must-coexist in each of us, and that sense of tandem has a special pathos of its own as we go through life remembering and experiencing and taking stock. Finally, many of us who get to old age may find that we are still children or, worse, made into children, infantilized, either by culture or by senility. So if childhood is not a calendar truth, what is it? What follows are some of the generic features that shape and cohere the story of growing up.

Rubrics for the Narrative of Growing Up

Innocence (and Experience)

William Blake titled two major poetry collections Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience, and nothing, I believe, stamps the perceptual drama of growing up more profoundly than this crucial binary. These two radically different lenses make visible how fatefully perspective shapes what we make of our lives. One thinks, initially, that we all move from innocence to experience (with whatever happy or catastrophic results that may occur), but it is no less true that we move from experience to innocence, inasmuch as experience alone makes prior innocence visible. Yet innocence also makes visible, which is what Blake’s greatest poems show us. “Out of the Mouths of Babes” is, like its folkloric sibling, “The Emperor’s New Clothes,” a window onto human foible and distortion or masquerade. It cannot surprise us that many of the books we most love move along such axes, often signaling in both directions: the child records more than he or she can know, while the sense-making of retrospect sifts and takes measures of what has occurred. Maybe that old Sphinx who tested Oedipus knew that every life is ultimately on four feet, two feet, and three feet, at the same time.

If Blake’s disturbing poems exploit innocence as optic, the great German novel of the seventeenth century, Hans Jakob Christoffel von Grimmelshausen’s Simplicissimus, appearing more than a century before Romantic conceptions of childhood set in, is still more brutal in its use of naiveté as lens. Once again the optics are double-the book counts on us to “know” what its character does not-but this earlier text widens the stage immeasurably beyond Blake’s late-eighteenth- century London, giving us a rare sense of what “history” (bloody history) might look like at “ground zero,” prior to all abstractions. This shattering account of a simpleton’s experience of the Thirty Years’ War, written by a man who was there, reads almost like an allegory of the soul: how can it preserve its purity and integrity in a time of horror? The novel’s punch comes from its angle of vision: to render the convulsive antics of a world out of control, as perceived by an unknowing victim.

We continue our investigation of innocence as lens with Twain’s much- beloved Huckleberry Finn. Twain enlists the vision and voice of a school dropout, an uneducated boy with zero cultural capital, to tell the story at hand. What would slavery look like to such a person? The novel’s grandeur is to be found in the evolving moral education of Huckleberry Finn as he gradually, fitfully, registers the humanity of Jim, the runaway slave whom he is helping to free, who becomes his figurative father. Huck faces a shockingly modern dilemma, a dilemma no child escapes: can one possibly get clear of the dictates of mainstream ideology, especially if those dictates are lodged inside one’s head and go by the name of conscience?

Faulkner’s Benjy is my next and, arguably, supreme instance of innocence as vision. The Sound and the Fury obliges us to negotiate the jumbled perceptions of a mind that is completed unfurnished, along cognitive lines, while the emotions rise and fall and careen in roller- coaster fashion, as he responds to the sole and enduring tragedy of his life: Caddy (his sister) is not there (in reality) but is always there (in his heart). Benjy is one of the grand readerly challenges in modern literature, but this is not some intellectual puzzle; rather, his responses to life write large for us the fate of love: our need, its beauty, its loss.

I want to conclude this discussion of childhood innocence by examining one of the most endearing characters of contemporary literature, the little girl Marjane, the protagonist of Marjane Satrapi’s poignant graphic novel Persepolis, which depicts a female child’s coming-of-age drama in Tehran in the fateful years between the shah’s expulsion and the beginning reign of the ayatollahs. A daughter of privilege, good- hearted but politically unaware, Marjane not only registers the Iranian change of regime but also embodies the dynamic of a young girl moving toward adolescence, and this combination of forces at once personal and ideological achieves a surprising pathos and poetry in the graphic format.

In all five instances-Blake, Grimmelshausen, Twain, Faulk?ner, Satrapi- the eyes and voice of the unknowing child become our conduit toward knowledge, toward a shock of recognition: this, we understand, is what exploitation, war, racism, terrorism, and even love actually look like, feel like. We may have known those terms forever, but we have never envisioned the world from this angle, never put on these particular glasses, never inhabited this position. A curtain goes up, and the innocent child is our teacher.

Experience (and Innocence)

Experience is the name we give to what life either shows us or does to us. At the opposite pole from innocence, it is the tally sheet that records our actual passing through, and as such, it is in frequent warfare with the expectations of innocence. All coming-of-age stories negotiate these two poles, as if they made up a magnetic field that the young traverse. Experience almost always has a pedagogical tinge to it-”this is what life has taught me” or “this is what it really was like”-and its greatest virtue is its open-eyed, unflinching acknowledgment of things as they are, rather than as they might or should be. In this light, it will be seen that our greatest works of art record the gradual accumulation of experience on the part of the young, as if the task of narrative were to put them on time’s treadmill and then show what they encounter and how they alter. Here is the schooling of life itself, an education often at odds with the precepts that are drilled into us by culture.
(Excerpted from Morning, Noon, and Night by Arnold Weinstein Copyright © 2011 by Arnold Weinstein. Excerpted by permission of Random House, a division of Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.)

 
  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Hendrickson/1652586055 Joshua Hendrickson

    Here we go … there is no greater fount of wisdom than fiction. I look forward to listening to this program.

  • http://onpoint.wbur.org/about-on-point/sam-gale-rosen Sam Gale Rosen

    I’m interested in hearing whether the guest thinks about the moral component of the process of learning from fiction. One of the philosopher Richard Rorty’s ideas was that we learn more about different kinds of suffering from literature, expanding the circle of who we consider to be like us, and making us more moral. I’d like to know what Weinstein thinks about Rorty’s ideas — especially in line with a book like Huck Finn.

    • Ellen Dibble

      Apparently Weinstein thinks Huck Finn was “enlisted” by Twain to be “an uneducated boy with zero cultural capital” to be an example of one “expanding the circle of who we consider to be like us, and making us [him Huck vis-a-vis the slave Jim in this case] more moral” — as you Sam put it.
      I’m trying to remember how Huck absorbed his “mainstream ideology,” with “zero cultural capital,” as Weinstein put it. Early parenting, such as he had?
      But in any case, lacking friends like Jim who we might see as “other,” we can use books as bridges, seeing the suffering of others, or for that matter, their joys.
      However, now we have the internet. We have counterparts who are not in books, not live presences, not exactly dead (dead as Weinstein points out is the sister of Benjy in The Sound and the Fury, which I haven’t read). But not exactly real.

    • Wthomsjr

      Sam, Hi and congrats on your work producing good media. This broadcast caught me while driving with its remarks on King Lear, so I had to log on when I got home. You and my kids rubbed shoulders at the Lanesville Preschool and your Dad’s youth soccer team. All the best to you and your admirable family! Bill Thoms

  • Grady Lee Howard

    The power of imagination and the power of myth are available as a means to wisdom. But right now we are living the dark side of false myth engineered to imprison minds. These texts are more valuable in their description of this dark side than any other purpose. Flannery O’Connor was another American master of bitter-sweet revelation. I’ll never forget when the Misfit explained, “Ain’t no real pleasure in this life.” Quadaffi and Newt Gingrich, even Bill Clinton, cling to this same untruth. It’s not that there is “no real pleasure” but that those drunk on the possibilities of disproportionate power thrive on the suffering of others, and their poison is contagious unless you’re “vaccinated.” Today’s broadcast is our collective shot.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Just to take on the last paragraph for the moment, who says there “expectations of innocence”? Maybe that phrase suggests the “mainstream ideology” that Weinstein suggests Huck Finn was set by Mark Twain to confront: “Can one possibly get clear of the dictates of mainstream ideology, especially if those dictates are lodged inside one’s head and go by the name of conscience?”
    Conscience seems to me like a cultural accumulation, akin to language, not inborn, not part of innocence. The sense of fairness might be inborn, but then i don’t say it’s “mainstream”; I say it’s genetic.
    I guess language allows us to dissemble, to lie, rather than to be completely transparent to a parent. And conscience allows us to be evil, by defining its opposite, as in I could transgress my intuitions, (and why not, if the world is being counterintuitive, i.e., evil; I don’t think children see evil; they register it; an abusive parent is feared, but without a counter-example, can the abuse be defined?)
    Blake’s view of innocence has always perplexed me. In many ways my understanding is he remained innocent. I think innocence becomes pre-empted by basically mortgages. By children. By party loyalty and its supports. By responsibilities that we agree to. And after a while the world ceases to unfold like a flower because we are caged in our own creations.
    You might say a revolution, the young people trying to shake off the cages their parents/culture have imposed on them pre-emptively, is a claim by a generation on their rights to innocence. They claim the right to construct their own cages, in their own way.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Weinstein alludes to expectations as part of innocence in a few ways. “The foreboding temporal curve to come, as the child leaves childhood.” I wonder how time appears in cultures without clocks. “Expectations” for much of human history was pretty circumscribed for girls. Jane Austen and the Brontes did write about female perspectives in growing up, but Emily Dickinson’s poetry seems to reflect a life whose plot-line was not the grand exploration into life. Even the Austen novels turn on the finding of a mate, and not much more. The Brontes studied the arc of male lives as well, more than Austen, in my view, but I am searching for “expectations.” Satrapi’s Marjane n Persepolis was modern in the sense she came of age into expectations, but that is a story of a privileged little girl, articulate and uppity (something like that). Her brain is not depicted as unfurnished. Politically, she learned. So did all of Iran. But plenty of lives unfold without great expectations, not by the parents, not by the child. Infusing the winner-take-all mindset into our children is the great American project, and like the American Dream of homeownership, it may in the long run take resources that would better be spent elsewhere. In the case of children — well, are there stories of those who have been folded into compromised positions very very young? Lying to protect parents? Stealing to feed siblings? Prostituting themselves to provide for other family members? What is the rate of survival of childhood in ancient Greece? In various cultures…

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Hendrickson/1652586055 Joshua Hendrickson

      I haven’t read Jane Austen (yet), but I just finished WUTHERING HEIGHTS. I am not convinced that Emily Bronte was a greater novelist than Austen (and I suspect that George Eliot outstrips them both), but her novel certainly shows a whole other side to romanticism and the various types of marriage that Austen just wasn’t inclined to explore. Her novel is entirely unique, a convincing study of what we would today identify as the cycle of abuse–i.e. evil.

      As for the concept of childhood, it seems to me to be a relatively recent cultural construct; the notion of “innocence” definitely is. Until the last couple of centuries, kids either died young or worked (in the family) just as soon as they were physically able; they were never innocent.

      • Ellen Dibble

        Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite books. I re-read it a few years ago. Think of those sisters, with a drunk for a brother, and a minister for a father, mother deceased, and then daring to take their shared love of creating stories to another level, and assuming the names of men in order to sell their work. It does tell the story of abuse, and the effects spreading across generations. All that. I think that story needs to become part of literature generation after generation, rekindled, but Emily Bronte — I love her like a sister. When a tree branch scratches my window panes on a windy night, it is Catherine, or it is Emily.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Hendrickson/1652586055 Joshua Hendrickson

          For me, the most beautiful event in the book was the unexpected affection that grew between young Cathy and Hareton. If “living well is the best revenge” then the way those two broke out of the cycle of abuse–and while Heathcliff still lived!–was the best possible revenge/counterpoint to their tormentor’s tireless hatred. What a great novel! Just imagine what Emily might have achieved had she lived to a ripe old age.

  • Philonous

    If we understand religious texts and mythology as literature, we can see that stories are what guide our lives. Human beings are people of the narrative.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Philonous

    Shakespeare over Oprah any day!

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Philonous

    And Oedipus–lame foot–was the right person to answer that question, since he was forced to think about walking all his life.

  • Lark Hammond

    I teach literature to High School students. I’ve found, in my own life, that literature has been the key to opening up the sense of real life in people from other cultures, which felt like the “blank spaces on the map” are filled in and coming to life. I felt that in college in Scotland, in 1973, when I read James Ngugi, of Kenya, (now Ngugi Wa Thiongo)– A Grain Of Wheat, made a brutal war of independence personally real; more recently, I read a memoir of China through three generations of women–Jung Chang’s Wild Swans, which opened my eyes and heart to the upheavals for 20th century Chinese people. Now I like to encourage my students to feel both their own lives and the lives of those who may seem “foreign.”

    Exeter, NH

    • Ellen Dibble

      Lark, I studied literature in high school mainly to do well on the SATs and get AP credit for college English. It succeeded all too well. Well, maybe not. I must have had an underlying skepticism that said don’t stick to what they teach you. Only learn insofar as you can go beyond. And so I would go to the library and pick out a separate book and read that sitting in the hallway, every single night. It was the only freedom I had at the time, and I don’t remember a lot from those novels, because they were not discussed on and on in class. And I read indiscriminately. Now I would stop and critique and savor a lot more. But then I just gobbled it up. The library was small, but the selection was global. There was literature in translation. And I am hoping that teachers can manage to transmit to students that they are free to do that sort of thing. It’s very different from assignments.

  • SaraMRosensteel

    I have a degree in English Literature, and I’ve been continually surprised by the change in my reading material of choice. As a teenager, I adored the romance and drama Brontes, particularly “Jane Eyre.” In early college, it was the opulence and slight scandal of Fitzgerald’s “This Side of Paradise” and the honest pain of the main character is Wouk’s “Marjorie Morningstar.” As an adult I truly love books that explore the search for self such as Lahiri’s “The Namesake” and Gina B. Nahai’s “Moonlight on the Avenue of Faith,” over which I mulled for weeks. I always thought that it was cliche to say that people enjoy reading about those in similar positions to themselves, but it seems to be true. (At least for me.)

    Thanks!
    Sara Rosensteel
    Virginia Beach, VA

  • Philonous

    One thing that we see in literature is how consistent human beings have been over time. I discussed Augustine’s “Confessions” last night with my world lit. students, looking at the rebellious teenager that he was. Reading gives us a deeper understanding of the human experience. I am worried that since we can’t demonstrate how great books will lead us to make money, the funding for humanities classes will get cut.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

    • Philonous

      Aside to “On Point”: Please remove the requirement for typing in a barely legible text to submit a comment.

      • Ellen Dibble

        Philonous, I have discovered in Google Chrome that clicking the wrench in the top right corner, there is a location where you can increase the size by whatever factor. There used to be a spot on the lower right, in Internet Explorer, but I think you are in charge here, not OnPoint.

        • Philonous

          It’s just annoying and unnecessary. Are robots commenting?

          • Ellen Dibble

            Philonous, maybe you’re using a pint-size screen. With the era of the flat-screen TV came computer monitors that are about 20 inches long that can be attached to your computer. The eyes, the neck — even young people, if they use computers for hours at a time, seem to work in offices with large-screen monitors. The print is still too small, but…

      • Anonymous

        Ctrl + increases text size. Ctrl – decreases text size.

    • Euxine22

      Then it is up to us to find ways to demonstrate how great books CAN lead to making money.

      • Philonous

        Oh, I hope not. Money isn’t everything. It’s merely a tool. We need meaning as well.

        • Philonous

          Not that I would mind being paid for my writing. . .

        • Ellen Dibble

          You will live longer if you live conscientiously, quote-unquote, i.e., if you have a job that has meaning for you. I refer you to Nightline last night, and some statistics Terry Moran was setting out.

          • Philonous

            Alas, I do understand how money is necessary as well. We humanities people don’t get paid at the same rate as our more obviously valuable colleagues.

  • Yar

    We see our emotional selves in the reflection of others. If that reflection is distorted we lose our equilibrium. Literature is a handle on the mirror. I prefer books to other forms of information because I am a visual thinker and words paint better pictures in my mind than any image on a screen.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I heard some father on ATC the other day talking about preparing his son for college. The requirement for an essay of application that had students competing on “depth of thought.” This father laughed. He said, “My son is 17! He has NO deep thoughts.”
    I can recall that age, the fact of basically writing a compendium of perspectives that seemed appropriate on such an essay.
    Yet I recall vividly how directly I recorded and reacted to things. Weinstein calls this “recording” (Weinstein’s word) feature of innocence, as if a “furnished” mind (his word) would perceive and react in a different way. I’m not sure. I think young people can be pretty incisive, just massively unsure about how to fit themselves into the awfully complicated world. They must be. Decades later, I’m still massively unsure. A little less so.

  • Longfeather

    Without literature I would be alone in the world. What I have always Identified with was from Ovid’s Metamorphosis when the person freezes into a tree. We lost our memory of our parents in order to survive. So I love “I am Goya,Too” by Voznesensky, and anything by Conrad, war poetry, anything about death in life because I can’t feel or talk to others of my emotion or lack of it. I only ever feel hugged and touched by literature.

  • SaraMRosensteel

    As Fitzgerald said: “What’ll we do with ourselves this afternoon?” cried Daisy, “and the day after that, and the next thirty years?

    • Ellen Dibble

      I think one wrestles with the ongoing evils we are endowed with from childhood up until we decide that is only causing more injury, and then we settle for scars. But anyone with a childhood that leaves one bored, hmm. Maybe they never really grew up. Did Fitzgerald? Did his characters?

      • SaraMRosensteel

        Ellen, I would say “no.” I think it’s obvious that the scars are open. I totally agree with your line of thinking. How many of us are standing on the edge of the dock looking at the green light across the water? Would that light going out be a release for our souls, or the tiny death of something essential to what makes us who we are?

  • Philonous

    The problem that I have in teaching literature is that my students have never read a book on their own. I can’t imagine how that is possible, but I’ve always read as much as I can at all stages of my life.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Bill Madigan

    John Updike examines loss of youth, missed opportunities, aging, death im many of novels and stories. I found his final collection of short stories, “Tears of My Father” most engaging. I just reread the Rabbit novels, but found his short stories more potent.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I’ve got to find that Simplicissimus book from the 17th century, about the crises of the 30 Years War. The 20th century was plenty violent, but I think there’s a lot more to come. Children of traumatic upheaval have a totally different deck of cards, different needs, different aspirations, all that. Dickens’ stint in the shoe-blacking firm was nothing compared to some of what might be coming down the pike for us all.

  • Philonous

    Exactly. Unlike Dr. Phil, we get to live the lives of others and experience what that would be like.

  • Ken from VT

    I think some books are forced on kids too soon, perhaps just because the vocabulary is age-appropriate, or because they can follow the story. For example, why should high school freshmen read The Catcher in the Rye? They can follow the story, but rarely, if ever, have I met a freshman who can truly relate to the character Holden, and what he’s been through. I feel that this is a grave disservice to the author and the book.

    • Anonymous

      Ridiculous. Catcher In The Rye speaks to whom? Only to 70 year olds? It speaks to young people between childhood and adulthood. The book practically invented adolescence as a modern phenomena.

      • Ken from VT

        Comments like “ridiculous” will keep people from sharing their thoughts, which, I think, is probably necessary to expand one’s consciousness. As a teacher, I have met many former students who wouldn’t pick up the book again because they really couldn’t see the point of Caulfield’s anger, and thus could NOT relate to the book. There are huge strides in development and questioning between Freshmen and Juniors, for example. I’d recommend it to high school juniors, but not to freshmen. 70 year olds could pick it up again, if they wish.

        • Anonymous

          That’s ridiculous.

        • Anonymous

          Catcher In the Rye is more than an angry person’s book. A teacher could flesh out the various themes for the students.

          • Ken from VT

            As we do… but I believe Juniors are at a better stage than freshmen to get the most out of it.

          • CAN

            Ken

            I agree with you. I always tell kids who have read Catcher too early to give it a try again at 17 or 18. They do have a better sense of Holden’s view of injustice and of his grappling with Allie’s death, but without the emotional language to deal with it. I’ve seen over and over again, the difference the 2 or 3 years of maturity makes in students’ connections to the novel.

  • Tina

    THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART FOR THIS SHOW!

    My problem at the moment: cancer making me old before my time. Any books to recommend? Thank you!

    • Ellen Dibble

      Tina, when I was in my 20s, someone who was important to me had cancer and was dying for several years. Or so it turned out. When things seemed bleak, it was consoling to me to play Sousa marches. Things that made me think about everyone together, as if people are not alone, and continue regardless. Other music can do that. The march of the slaves in Nabucco, I believe it is, which I was not familiar with at the time, would give that effect. It’s not literature, but it goes straight to the bone. Music, that is.

      • Tina

        Ellen! I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THIS SUGGESTION!! I even HAVE Sousa marches, as I usually bring them out around July Fourth — they really sounded great when I had a house with a porch! I’ll find them tomorrow, too tired tonight.

        Thanks VERY much!

        • Ellen Dibble

          There’s a tiny bit from the opera Boris Godunov (I think it’s by Moussourgsky…) where the czar is singing about doom. I think I learned a bit of Russian just to get some context for the particular five or six bars. Kak panymayet, yone, yone. That’s a drastic transformation of the alphabet, but it means “I hear someone coming, someone, someone.” Why did it resonate so? The czar had been so awful that he really was alone, and the footsteps of ANYBODY were threatening. As I recall, anyway. It reminds me of facing a life-threatening illness, with his fear standing in for the feelings of pain and sickness. But the loneliness and dread/doom exactly pinpointed something shared.
          For some reason, for me, because the music held down that corner of reality, I could displace it out of my own center and just hum it in my head if need be.

          • Ellen Dibble

            Try this. I’m going to find that snippet, same tone as this, however.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSYyGLiiIOQ

            The haunting bit about “someone, someone” (Yone, yone) is at 3:53 minutes in for a couple of minutes.

    • Yar

      One of my favorites is Starship Troopers. It boils down life in an interesting way. Some studies have shown that the most satisfied people in the world are cancer survivors. I wish you well.

      • Tina

        Thanks, Yar, very much! I’ll check for it soon (see my comment, above.)!

    • Ellen Dibble

      I’m thinking, Tina, that when I had cancer and chemo and various other physical indispositions, I was really not able to read. My brain wasn’t up to it. So I was kind of on vacation a lot of time, but could find doors to open that I would not be able to during more functional stretches of time. I’m wondering if I get decrepit if I’ll start going to line-dancing routines or what. Anyway, it may be a mistake to put your worst foot forward because you are not at your optimal capacity, but I did it, and stored up experiences then (early 1990s) that are very precious. I really was just thinking what CAN I do, especially without maybe having to plan another half century of life. I always like unpacking poetry from other languages, Heinrich Heine, for example. Seeing beautiful ways of stating things that are totally other than whatever is cramping my thought. I was trying to transcend. Others might be trying to tether me to: You are sick; you are stuck; you are over. But I wasn’t over yet.

      • Tina

        And we’re all GLAD that you WEREN’T “over yet”!! Thanks for the idea of poetry — good idea. I have some Rumi, some Robert Bly, and some stuff from the funny, deadpan guy from the Midwest who might have been a poet laureate. I also have some old Swedish poets with simultaneous translations — very, very atmospheric stuff. They would take me to a different landscape. And, you’ve reminded me about Italo Calvino. I forget the name of the book, but it’s comprised of small pieces about imaginary cities. Maybe that is even the title! I’m in a book club, but, you’re right, I cannot keep up with the reading (most books are longer than anything I ever tackled, except Ulysses, but that took almost an entire semester and had splendid help and guidance from our teacher!). The funny thing is, I wrote over 50 short stories before I got sick. Recently, which is quite some time after writing these stories, I contacted a publisher about sending the work to them. If I could only read my OWN stories, I think they would be perfect. They are NOT meant for people with illness at all, but anyone would enjoy them, I think. If I could stop being so tired and could get them to the publisher, the publisher could let us know!

        • Ellen Dibble

          You wrote 50 stories over what span of time? You sent them — no, you “contacted” someone. Well, what can I say. I’ve never written for publishers because I write pretty short, and I calculate it would not be worth my time and effort to keep track of where things go to. On line, things take wing, and you don’t have to worry about words coming back and having to be sent again. I heard a challenge to write three pages on something the other day, if you pay NPR 25 bucks, and sat right down and decided this would be my new way of supporting NPR. The story will never win, or it had better not. I’d have to change my name. And the prize is to read it at Symphony Space. Something I would never do. But I had so much fun. Read about the writers whose work has been burned to the ground by mistake, or Gilgamesh that was lost for 2000 years, and you realize “publishing” is different than trying to encapsulate something for the benefit of others. You write for the mirror image of yourself in another time and space. Try not to let anyone think you’re ranting. But accept it if they do. (Hear me roar…) I’m glad you understand what I mean about other languages. Piecing together a poem for me is by far best if the language is foreign. I need dual language books at this point (or lots of time), yet other languages open for me my own language.
          Poems in my own language can seem hollow by comparison. I don’t know why. Make me very sick again and maybe I’ll remember why. Something small enough to hold in a flickering moments.
          Properly deployed, each word in a language can explode. English words can explode for me. Take the word “dwindle.” All of a sudden it occurred to me of course it’s from wane. Maybe from wan as in pale and wan as well.
          The challenge of getting that into something for children so that language becomes more organic for them will never leave me.
          How about gargle. Related to gorge. Gorgeous (one with throat arrogantly thrust out). Foreign languages only intensify this. I have no clue about ANY Swedish words, which is my loss.
          I mean every word with its evolution is linking us across continents and centuries. You need these wings all the more when time and space seem foreshortened.

        • Yar

          Tina,
          You can self publish, you can get everything you need online,library of congress control numbers, ISBN, printing the works. You can even sell through Amazon. Something to think about. Good luck.

          If you decide to listen to the Book on Tape of Starship Troopers, get the one narrated by George Wilson, he is great, much better than the version on a CD.

  • James Connelly

    Proust’s “On Reading” came to mind as you discussed Mrs. Ramsey’s private experience of reading.
    The dissolution and scattering of a life’s accumulated possessions is well described in Musil’s The Man Without Qualities, part III, as Ulrich sits in his dead father’s study and surveys the dead man’s possession just before the relentless process of scattering will begin.

  • Jane

    I am sixty-four this year. As very young woman, I discovered the novels of Iris Murdoch and have never found another author who more ruthlessly and tenderly protrays human relationships and the connection of youth and age.
    In my own life, taking risks and embracing emotionally difficult situations have given me tremendous pain and a greater joy and an exquisite awareness of my mortality.

  • Wthomsjr

    From Shakespearean Tragedy by A.C. Bradley, London: Macmillan & Co.,Ltd., 1904

    Why King Lear sits at the highest pinnacle of literature, because it explains the end and aim of life. It should be required reading for all fathers over 40. Here, in one extended sentence, is its summation:

    “The old King who in pleading with his daughters feels so intensely his own humiliation and their horrible ingratitude, and who yet, at fourscore and upward, constrains himself to practice a self-control and patience so many years disused; who out of old affection for his Fool, and in repentance for his injustice to the Fool’s beloved mistress, tolerates incessant and cutting reminders of his own folly and wrong; in whom the rage of the storm awakes a power and a poetic grandeur surpassing even that of Othello’s anguish; who comes in his affliction to think of others first, and to seek, in tender solicitude for his poor boy, the shelter he scorns for his own bare head; who learns to feel and to pray for the miserable and houseless poor, to discern the falseness of flattery and the brutality of authority, and to pierce below the differences of rank and raiment to the common humanity beneath; whose sight is so purged by scalding tears that it sees at last how power and place and all things in the world are vanity except love; who tastes in his last hours the extremes both of love’s rapture and of its agony, but could never, if he lived on or lived again, care a jot for aught beside — there is no figure, surely, in the world of poetry at once so grand, so pathetic, and so beautiful as his.”

    • Tina

      Thank you so much for writing this out for us!

  • Msrichards

    The late great Updike sheds light on the experience of growing old, in his “Rabbit at Rest” as well as his short storeis.
    A favorite line of mine from “Playing with Dynamite:” “Even the end of the world, strange to say, wouldn’t be the end of the world.”

  • Caroline Allen

    I am a writing coach and help people all over the world write their first novels and/or memoir. The process can last years. The writer goes through a long process that leads them to an understanding of “the melody of their lives”. At times traumatic at other times glorious, the process of explaining one’s own life through fiction or memoir is a life-changing one. It seems to shift a writers understanding of their lives on a cellular level.

    Caroline Allen
    Writing Coach
    http://www.artofstorytellingonline.com

  • g, Buffalo

    “Master and Margarita”, by Bulgakov – life changing!

  • Blythe

    Some of the best experiences I’ve had with books were as a child reading excellent children’s literature (A Wrinkle In Time comes to mind). I have tried rereading some of my favorite childrens novels as an adult, and they are NEVER as magical as they were to me as a child. Being exposed to such fantastic books as a child sparked a lifelong love of reading, but more importantly, a love of good *stories*.

    • Tina

      You might try reading the funny ones lying on the sofa on your back! Somehow old childhood favorites, IF they have ANY humor, are SO much funnier that way!

  • Loring Palmer

    Please: what books could help me understand a beneficial use of ole age? We live in a godless society dominated by “Scienticism.” But I yearn for an evolutionary approach that would lead me to enlightenment rather than a static life of retirement in Florida. Somebody must be writing about this, I hope. And what about dying with confidence and dignity?

    • Philonous

      Read E. B. White’s essay, “Once More to the Lake.” It’s available on-line here and there. The point that he comes to is that we have to create new roles for ourselves, rather than repeating old ones.

      • Philonous

        And Dylan Thomas’s “Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night”

      • Ellen Dibble

        Oh, so — tell that to Mubarak. Tell that to Gaddafi. … The point of maximal power is not necessarily the point of greatest joy or greatest wisdom, and it definitely is not becoming after a certain point, especially for dictators.

        • Sandy Untermyer

          Mubarak, Gaddafi, and Assad — all puppets. What would they know about maximal power? Don’t rant silly, Ellen. Lyndon Johnson understood more about real power than all of them put together. 

    • Ken from VT

      Read “Nation” by Terry Pratchett. It is the perfect antidote to Golding’s Lord of the Flies. Roughly, it is about a kid who somewhat unintentionally ends up as lord over an island that has seen tremendous destruction. Initially, he blames the gods, the old people, the old ways. But he comes round to seeing the validity as well as the folly of the systems of the old ways. Interestingly, Pratchett was suffering from the beginning stages of Alzheimer’s when he finished this novel. It is truly a story of hope.

      • Anonymous

        Catcher In the Rye is more than an angry person’s book. A teacher could flesh out the various themes for the students.

    • Sandy Untermyer

      If you ever do come back to see this, I want you to try Death in the Afternoon. ‘Enlightenment’ is a word most won’t associate with it, but what this book really teaches isn’t what enlightenment is, but how to begin to look for it, your own personal enlightenment, by yourself. If you start here, as Kerouac did, you might end up across the sea with Buddha, or remain in your own backyard alone, but you will come to understand that to know anything about life you will have to come to terms with one death that is at once beautiful and tragic and prosaic: Your own. 

  • g, Buffalo

    How about “Lolita” by Nabokov? it is a lot more relevant than most may think. Any girl growing up and having had a crush on someone older …
    There are a lot of “us” out there. :)

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Hendrickson/1652586055 Joshua Hendrickson

      LOLITA is a fabulous novel–so clever and punny and poignant. Some call it the greatest love story of all time. Could be.

    • Expanded_Consciousness

      In Lolita we see everything through HH’s eyes and we are in his head. We really don’t get to know Lolita very well.

  • Philonous

    Michael Crighton stated once that Freud was the greatest novelist of the twentieth century.

    Greg Camp
    Springdale, AR
    http://gregorycamp.wordpress.com/

  • Msrichards

    Fabulous show. Reading is the best occupation – one need not travel farther than the library.
    I wish this show could be continued – weekly or daily. Oh what a treat. Thank you Tom and Professor Weinstein.

    • Carol A

      Oh what a treat is exactly the thought (and feeling) that accompanied me throughout the show. Thank you, thank you. More?

  • Ellen Dibble

    In college, freshman year, I spent a lot of time studying Thomas Mann’s Tonio Kroeger, novelette about coming of age. I was learning German by way of that book, two hours a day, yet it never seemed ego-syntonic, if that’s the word. Not the way — oh, excuse me. I can’t think of any books that seemed about me at that age.
    Anyway, it is about envy/love, and I will never forget the sort of visual shape to what was depicted. It was about the kind of love that is mostly admiration. One boy, maybe Jewish, I’m thinking retrospectively, and the other blau-augige, blue-eyed, blond-haired. Written very early in the 20th century, it sort of prefigured certain later developments in Germany, for sure. Our teacher (from Hamburg) didn’t tell anything about the resonance with history. But it was probably a fortifying exposure for young women like us to see love as skewed by envy, and so on. Because it was about love (or whatever it was) between boys, it didn’t “bring on” all the weight of what we might be personally experiencing.

  • Allen

    One of the goals I feel is important for teachers is to select books that will excite, interest or inspire their students. So books which deal with the students stage of life and cultural backgrounds, or ones which they can relate to, are important. Of course the books need to be well written. What actually happens, however, is that teachers force books on young students which are about stages of life and conditions which they may have no relationship with–for example, forcing novels about Ph.D. intellectuals’ midlife crisis on 14 year old boys, etc. If instead, teachers turned kids on to reading, enabling them to find out the rich understandings and expansions of insight and possibilities which such well chosen books could offer, they would be cultivating life long readers.

    Stories are the inevitable accompaniment of life. We are in them all the time–both those we make up and believe in, consciously or unconsciously, and those we absorb from popular movies, celebrity culture, etc. I wish that teachers would have students write about the kinds of stories they are actually believing in, to make these more conscious, and to give them books to read which enlarge upon or counter these.

    For teachers to get out of the lock step mode of just teaching whatever they were taught and trying to cram books down students’ throats that students don’t relate to, understand or care about–and instead to take up a position of inspired leadership in the realm of imaginative gifts for life, which fiction offers–that is what could really help students.

  • Ken from VT

    “Rules for Old Men Waiting” by Peter Pouncey
    “Crossing to Safety” by Wallace Stegner
    “Carry Me Across the Water” by Ethan Canin
    and
    “Major Pettigrew’s Last Stand” by Helen (I think) Simonson.

    All beautiful books with dignified, old-age protagonists.

    • Ken from VT

      That was supposed to be in reply to Loring Palmer…

  • Miguel

    A book like Hesse’s Siddhartha shows not only the importance of experience in finding one’s own way, but also leads to a better appreciation of a movement through life.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joshua-Hendrickson/1652586055 Joshua Hendrickson

    KING LEAR might well be the single greatest piece of literature ever written.

    Among my favorite novels, in no particular order:

    INVISIBLE MAN by Ralph Ellison
    LOLITA by Vladimir Nabokov
    WUTHERING HEIGHTS by Emily Bronte
    JULIAN by Gore Vidal
    THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN by Gene Wolfe
    WE by Yevgeny Zamyatin
    IT by Stephen King
    MY ANTONIA by Willa Cather
    CEREBUS by Dave Sim
    THE SANDMAN by Neil Gaiman
    THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARP by John Irving
    CAT’S CRADLE by Kurt Vonnegut
    WICKED by Gregory Maguire
    CAMP CONCENTRATION by Thomas Disch
    CREATION by Gore Vidal
    WATCHMEN by Alan Moore
    DUNE by Frank Herbert
    WATERSHIP DOWN by Richard Adams
    ANIMAL FARM by George Orwell

    While only a few of these novels may count as great literature, some of the others ought to, and perhaps will, one day. I love and cherish them all, they have been influential on my life and my own writing, and I can’t imagine life without them.

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  • chicagolistener

    loved this – have listened multiple times

  • Suspire

    Thank you Sheila!
    The most intelligent remarks I’ve heard in a while.

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  • Ed

    The Book of Proverbs in the Bible should be added to the list.

  • Michiganjf

    “I grow old… I grow old…
    I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.”

  • Jemimah

    Fascinating, the last passage read.  I was just observing that as we grow old, friends from high school–most far flung–seem to be growing closer.  And the biggest reason I can find for that is that those friendships take us back to our youth…the thing that is fleeing us with mind-blowing alacrity. 

  • L-sigmund

    Middlemarch has everything you need to know about adult life –  

  • Ellen Dibble

    It could hardly be more important for a young person to be able to see a situation from many perspectives, perspectives with more context than just that moment.  I remember being totally amazed at how much goes on that I for one could never detect.  What sort of geniuses are these writers anyway?  That’s what I thought.

  • Sandy Untermyer

    SMARTEST THING EVER SAID

    I have an extensive library, filled with the classics I love, thousands of volumes. (And this is AFTER I gave away thousands to the library prior to my move down here in 2002.)But you asked for the REAL secret to life. And I heard it just the other night on the TV show Dallas, when JR tells his son: ‘Son, never miss a great opportunity to shut up.’ Nobody anywhere ever said anything more intelligent. Sandy UntermyerAppling GA

  • midwifemom

    “The Universe is made of stories, not atoms”  Muriel Rukeyser

  • Guest

    I just celebrated my 53rd birthday, and the A.A. Milne poem  now reverberates in a completely new way than it did when I memorized it as a child. 

    “Half way up is the stair where I sit
    There isn’t really any other stair quite like it
    It isn’t at the bottom and it isn’t at the top
    And this is the stair I like to stop.”

    • Ellen Dibble

      Your post reminds me that poetry that we learn, maybe from hearing it read to us over and over, had better be useful over the long run, because it is likely to stick with us over the long run.  The music of it will hold it, and the words can reveal their layers as time goes by.  I’ve got A.A. Milne stored up too, extracting plenty of meaning, some pretty immediate.  Remember Jonathan Jo with a mouth like an O and a wheelbarrow full of surprises?  It gave me a personal perspective on the lame, the blind, various “different” people I saw.

  • C F Della Pietra

    Reading G. B. Shaw in high school was a revelation – that one could, through fiction, criticize and satirize ‘sacred’ institutions and professions. Perhaps it encouraged behavior that has gotten me into trouble over the years (Emperors rarely like being told they’re naked!), but I continue to relish and trumpet Shaw’s honesty, wit and wisdom.

  • Gh Forsythe

    Not just young folks! I studied German Literature, never had the chance to teach it post Ph D in 1974, but have always had Goethe’s Faust at the forefront of my mind, like a beacon. It contains one of the greatest writer’s life’s reflection in his treatment of one of the worlds great prototype stories: Faust. At the end of life it reminds me that salvation, if granted,comes after devoting oneself to others first. And it tempers my expectations for what any short life can expect in the way of progress by remembering that most folks are more like Gretchen than Faust — and they don’t need salvation in the end either!
    But the notion that literature is the personal developmental mirror for us all is so relevant. I work as a volunteer in prisons with inmates of all stripes (no pun intended). A key challenge in remaining free (recidivism in NC is up to 80%) is acting to untie the Gordian knot of dependent thinking and hollow self esteem that prison teaches is who you are after about 5 years behind bars. To be able to act to change that, the to-be-released must accept and be aware of who and what they have become. I’m hoping to get funded to teach a course about Franz Kafka’s short stories in conjuntion with assessments we use in leadership development to do just that: develop awareness and acceptance. The current rehab programs don’t do that well, but my inmate friends just love the idea of literature as the mirror of their souls. And the few who have tried Kafka on for size find that Gergor Samsa and the Country Doctor, amongst others, fit perfectly.
    Thanks for validating my idea!

  • Display Name

    I enjoyed the show very much. While listening I was reminded of Johann Gottfried Herder, the German Philosopher and literary critic, who felt that literature offered an opportunity to capture the full range and extent of human experience.

  • Zero

    “The captain of the ship, a shady, breezy, racketeering type, had gone out of his way to shake hands with me at the start.  When he crossed my path now, he didn’t even seem to know me, it was as if I’d been wanted for some sordid crime, guilty from the start … Guilty of what? When men can hate without risk, their stupidity is easily convinced, the motives supply themselves.”

    –Louis-Ferdinand Celine from ‘Journey to the End of the Night’

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