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Rep. Anthony Weiner Talks About John Boehner And Leadership

“Mr. Speaker”-in-waiting John Boehner. We take a closer look at the Ohio Congressman, now lined up for power – and how he’ll use it.

House speaker-in-waiting John Boehner, R-Ohio, in Washington, Nov. 3, 2010. (AP)

John Boehner is the next speaker of the House, where Republicans will be the majority party. Most Americans know little of this Congressman from southwestern Ohio – even if we do know he’s prone to weeping.  

Boehner grew up poor and spent his life chasing the American dream. After two decades in Congress, he’s a political insider, and now the leader of a party strengthened by Tea Party outsiders demanding change. 

Can he deliver for the GOP? And can he work with Democrats? 

-Anthony Brooks

Guest:

Michael Grunwald, senior national correspondent for Time magazine. His new cover story is “Tanned, Tested, Ready: New Speaker John Boehner.”

Carl Weiser, government and politics editor for the Cincinnati Enquirer.

Max Pappas, vice president for public policy at FreedomWorks, an advocacy organization that promotes smaller government and is part of the Tea Party movement.

Rep. Anthony Weiner, Democratic Congressman since 1999 representing New York’s 9th district, which includes Brooklyn and Queens.

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  • Al Dorman

    Seems pretty obvious to me that the GOP got us here. Is that even really disputable? So what’s the point of reelecting them?

    BOSTON, MA

  • Nick

    Worcester, MA

    I am sorry. I just don’t feel comfortable with a guy who is vain about his appearance: The perpetual suntan, expensive suits paid for with corporate donations, the always perfect coif…… ugh ! It’s like he stepped into the tanning salon and flicked the switch for medium but got the George Hamilton setting by mistake. And the arrogance of his whole demeanor…

    But then, that is the Conservative end of the Republican Party – vain and full of hubris

  • Flowen

    Here’s a riddle: Why do they pronounce Boehner “Bay-ner?”…because they don’t want you to call him the Boner he really is.

  • wavre

    It has never been about policies differences, only the fear of loosing control.
    The( old) white majority got scared…

    “We want our country back!( at the cost of our own interests) We are being exploited along with minorities, but at least it is perpetrated by folks who look like us,yuppie!”

    Long Live Boehner!( even if its policies will shorten ours)

    On the democratic side, we have the Clinton’s, disguising their renewed ambitions for Hillary’s presidency and taking back the control of the Party for a run in 2012?

    Obama, Obama, Obama what a fraud, we all know that he is just a pawn of corporate america, but does he has to make it so obvious? The bashing of the left by Emmanuel, Gibbs, Axelrod, Geitner reflect the philosophy of Obama and his administration. The only thing progressist with Obama is his speech writers.

    Compromise still?

    The definition of insanity isn’t it doing the same things over and over and hoping for a different outcome??? Who said that again?…Oh yeah, Obama did.

    The only persons outhere are Nancy Pelossi and Elisabeth Warren( woomen of skills, woomen of steel) The only ones with”corones”, with spines.There is a campaign of smear agaisnt them, talking heads from the left and the right are spreading in the media, the idea That Pelossi must resign.Corporate america doesn’t like them much, that’s one of the reasons, i think,they ‘re doing a good job on our behalf.

    Strange times, weak men with excessif tan and no spines, but ladies with”corones”.

  • Gail

    The U.S. political system is corrupt and needs serious reform. Both parties are one in the same since they work for the same industry campaign donors. America will continue to decline as long as citizens allow the corruption to continue.

    How any incumbent politician got re-elected this last election cycle shows how uniformed and uninvolved Americans truly are.

  • William

    Well, if he at least reads the bills before passing them, unlike Nancy Pelosi, we are then moving in the right direction.

  • Mark

    That is so true! It’s the OLD white majority who want to run things. That’s gotta go!! The core of the Republican party. This Boehner guy is just another supporter of corrupt capitalism!

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    Who cares about Boehner, Anthony Weiner is the man.

    Go Anthony!

  • peter nelson

    Seems pretty obvious to me that the GOP got us here. Is that even really disputable? So what’s the point of reelecting them?

    The Democrats are just as in bed with corporate interests as the Republicans are. Go to opensecrets.org and look at who the top 5 donors are to Democratic leadership and key chairs. Furthermore, the Dems voted for the original banking deregulation; and they voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq. And furthermore in Obama’s first two years when they had strong majorities they failed to enact stringent banking reform (no surprise given who was financing Frank and Dodd), plus Obama appointed a Goldman Sachs guy to Treasury.

    In practical terms the majority of people are not going to see any practical change in their lives no matter which party is in power in Washington. Both parties are to the right of center by the standards of all the other major democracies in the world.

  • Brett

    Boehner, who has historically been a deal maker in his political life, now has to please neo-cons and TP’rs, folks who typically have criticized politicians for being deal makers. It should be interesting to see if he is going to pander to his base (something he has done politically since Pelosi has been Speaker and has increased since Obama has been in office) or will actually work to get things accomplished, requiring compromise and deal making…

  • Rob (in NY)

    I am hopeful that Boehner has learned enough over the years that he will be a strong behind the scenes Speaker. Republicans do not expect him to be the national spokesperson for the party (as this does
    not fit his skillset), but he knows how to get things done in Congress. The key is to get the House to vote on major bills, including tax cut extentions, broader tax reform, spending reductions (ideally bringing non discretionary spending back to pre 2008 levels), and moving forward on entitlement reform, Obviously, tangible accomplishments will require some level of compromise with President Obama and the Senate.

    It is great that the GOP now has at least a role in setting the Congressional agenda over the next two years. I am sorry Mr.President, Republicans are
    “no longer sitting in the back of the bus” to borrow your divisive rhetoric.

  • Brett

    Rob (in NY),
    I don’t see Boehner as being able to fully please folks such as yourself and at the same time employ compromise with Democrats. The Boehner that is the deal maker is not the same Boehner that has had neo-con rhetoric to spare in the past couple of years. Will he be both Boehners?

  • Brett

    Of course, maybe with a couple of high balls, a few cigarettes and a slap on the back or two, who knows? Obama smokes, too!!!

  • yar

    @Nick:
    Would you feel differently about the orange color if it was intended to lighten his complexion instead of darken it?
    I try not to judge a person by the color of their skin, natural or enhanced.

    As for leadership, I hope and pray both parties will work to put the country back to work.
    I would like to see a youth jobs program, like the CCC of the depression era, only one that was accessible to both mien and women. It would give work experience to the next generation, and reduce pressure on unemployment. It doesn’t encourage the public assistance dependence because it is only available to a narrow age group. I argue it is an investment like education, that pays off in the long run. In fact I think A CCC program will leverage the public investment already made on our youth to help them become a more productive citizen.

  • Brett

    A point that fascinates me about Boehner is that he used to be a Democrat; and, when he began to make serious money in the plastics industry, he questioned whether he should be a Democrat after becoming rich…obviously his answer was, “NO!” maybe it was, “HELL, NO!” I always said that if I ever got rich I would become a Republican, too; why would I NOT want to protect the interests of my kind?!?

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    Wavre at 3:12 AM (from Hawaii, or with insomnia?) “The only persons outhere are Nancy Pelossi and Elisabeth Warren( woomen of skills, woomen of steel) The only ones with”corones”, with spines.There is a campaign of smear agaisnt them, talking heads from the left and the right are spreading in the media, the idea That Pelossi must resign.Corporate america doesn’t like them much, that’s one of the reasons, i think,they ‘re doing a good job on our behalf. — Strange times, weak men with excessif tan and no spines, but ladies with ‘corones.’”

    Good point, but I think it’s Elizabeth Warren and Nancy Pelosi, women with balls, “cojones,” right. Not crowns or anything like it. Spanish for spines?

  • Beverly

    He’s a nasty, amoral, humorless, selfish, deceitful, uncooperative, manipulative, overgrown yobbo, with a very bad attitude.No wonder he’s so popular with the GOP.

    At least his appointment will signal Big Business to start hiring again. They will have permission to stop holding back.

    America can finally prosper, under Republican “leadership” (?), & the slimy, incredibly corrupt, unscrupulous Republicans will be hailed as heroes, for recussitating the Economy.

    That was the dastardly plan all along; to make sure “Conservatives” were elected at all cost, so they can go about the merry business of, once again, duping the ignorant, gullible American public; they’re ridiculously easy to fool.

  • cory

    Richard at 0715 hrs commenting on Boehner and Wiener… The possibilities for “potty humor” are truly endless!

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    As a minority leader, I’m not sure what Boehner could have done except be a voicepiece for the interests financing him. I would be very embarrassed to serve like that, puppet magnifique, but I guess the right size check could make me do anything. So instead I’m embarrassed for the “interests” paying to get him to sound like such a pawn. If he’d do the same for me, I’d send him a box of chocolates and bright red underwear. Whatever it takes.
    Moving on. What does Mitch McConnell demand of him? Could a Republican in the last couple years depart from Senator McConnell’s party line of “Just say no”?
    Since November 2, I’ve heard Boehner sound like a People’s Person.
    But if on the People’s behalf, tending to our national budget, he helps get entitlements brought in line with reality and if he helps get defense spending in line with reality (earmark by earmark alienating every congressperson, every district in the USA), if he does that, I’ll be praying for him, or drinking to his health, cheering.

  • jeffe

    noting is going to change. Except, the Republicans will start to dismantle the health care bill. the amount of people who do not have health care insurance in this country is going up, not down. The Republican agenda is to stop Obama, make him a one term president and take back the White House. Preferably with a nice square jawed white guy.

    Neither party really cares about the people of the nation. They care about staying in power, period.

    Health care is going to bankrupt this nation or put it in deep financial water in less than ten years and not one part is really addressing this let alone the financial crisis which is far from over.

  • peter nelson

    The pickle that Boehner and the GOP are in is in the math: government workers and government contractors still spend real money. They buy cars and go out to restaurants and shop at Target and Walmart and Home Depot. In economic terms they still contribute to net aggregate demand.

    So any significant cuts will still subtract from the actual economy. And it’s not like that money will reappear somewhere else – to reduce the deficit you cannot give it back in taxes. You just have to make that spending disappear: *poof!*.

    Now granted, that’s how the money appeared in the first place – *poof!* – deficit spending. But that magic money still bought actual cars and food and dry goods, etc. So if Boehner makes good on his promise to make big spending cuts the economy will shrink and more people will be out of work.

    My guess is that he’s not stupid; he can do the math; and the result will be nothing but symbolic cuts and blame the other party for why they couldn’t do more.

  • peter nelson

    Neither party really cares about the people of the nation. They care about staying in power, period.

    People say this a lot and I don’t get what their point is.

    Of course staying in power is what they care about! Don’t you care about keeping your job, if you’re lucky enough to have one? It’s in the Constitution. The Constitution describes how you get the job or keep the job – that’s what it’s about. Articles 2 and 3 don’t list “caring about the people” as one of the qualifications – voters are free to vote on any basis they wish.

    Caring about staying in power is baked right into our system. In theory that’s how voters are supposed to motivate them to do a better job. If they didn’t care about staying in power voters would have no influence on them at all. But ultimately it comes down to the voters.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    Peter, if you look at the pie that is the national budget, it’s not government employees’ spending power that ought to be on the chopping block.
    The budget can only be cut down to size by cutting the big waistline of National Government, which is this: Entitlements (Social Security/Medicare)
    Defense spending (bases all over the world still)
    Interest on the national debt (I believe –
    I’m way out of my depth — payable to
    Saudi and Chinese lenders? and of course
    the general losses to us all from inflation
    in costs and deflation in the
    value of a dollar if we simply print the
    money to ourselves; I defer to economists,
    but not to any I currently know of).
    The Size of Government is the Size of Entitlements, plus the Size of International Arrogance and Presumption (wars etc.), plus the size of poor planning (i.e., debt service).
    Government jobs should ALWAYS be subject to re-evaluation. Not just at one point in time. Always.

  • cory

    PETER Nelson referring to Boehner’s PICKLE. No end to the phallic references today!

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Ellen Dibble

    Phallic references? I’m afraid I see our legislators as anything but powerful, if that’s the idea. If they make any mistakes, the money that pulls their strings will start cooking up attack ads. And we vote according to mud slung.

  • JP

    Well TPers… how do you like the idea of being “handled” by Boner?

  • peter nelson

    The budget can only be cut down to size by cutting the big waistline of National Government, which is this: Entitlements (Social Security/Medicare)
    Defense spending (bases all over the world still)

    I said “government workers and government contractors”.

    It doesn’t matter whether you work for EPA or Raytheon. Lay off a $50K worker and that’s $50K less money in your economy. Ditto with Social Security and Medicare. It still comes out of the economy and reduces aggregate demand – less goods and services being bought.

    Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans show much enthusiasm for closing foreign bases that they’re an interesting question. At least some of that money isn’t going into the US economy but I’ll bet the majority still is: soldiers’ pay, contractors’ pay, equipment, etc. But I haven’t seen the numbers.

    Of course we should eliminate wasteful spending but we have to be clear what results we’re expecting. Are we trying to create jobs or are we trying to eliminate wasteful spending? In the short term they’re at cross-purposes.

  • Beverly

    .
    ROB,

    Republicans are ALWAYS in charge, whether you realize it or not.

    Haven’t you heard about the tantrums?  They whine, shout, & stamp their little feet, until they get their way.

  • Dan

    John Boehner helped turn the GOP into the party of no. I will be interested to see how he responds to a Democratic Senate saying no to bills from a Republican House. This is the same Representative who said “When you have the most historic election in over 60-70 years — you would think that — the other party would understand that the American People have clearly repudiated — the policies that they put forward the last two years,” and intended for that quote to apply to only 2010 and not 2008.

    To this Democrat, John Boehner is target #1.

  • JP

    He doesn’t need pork… he gets more than enough from corporate kickbacks.

  • yar

    Isn’t interesting that a when a man shows a motion uses emotion, he is seen as human. If a woman show the same she is seen as week.

  • Larry

    Boehner voted for the Wall Street bailout. In fact cried on the floor of the House pleading for his colleges to vote for it.

    Now he is the leader in the House for the tea party voters.

    Ha ha ha ha ha.

  • Solvei Blue

    From Montpelier VT

    If John Boehner were a woman, his reputation as a crier would political poison. It’s a sexist double standard that men can cry and weep at the drop of the dime. Remember when Hillary choked up during the campaign? It was a topic of conversation for weeks! Now I know that Boehner does it pretty much on cue, on at least a yearly basis? Yeah. We need more women in politics, if only to bring some rationality back.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Peter, good point. So long as Jobs is the top issue we’re dealing with nationally, that is at cross-purposes with decreasing the size of government. Jobs at cross-purposes with decreasing spending on anything at all, whether it’s cellphones and plasma TVs or spa treatments or you name it. (Oh, the non-green consumption, oh, the garbage.)
    It seems we have to somehow extract enough moolah (money) from growing economies (by financial deals or exports) that the banks and innovators can put their heads together and ante-up for new jobs.
    Where valid jobs might come from — big question. Probably not what Boehner knows. When did he last live in a totally hollowed-out town where all the jobs went to Mexico?

  • yar

    The brain isn’t working this morning,
    Take two.

    Isn’t interesting that a when a man shows emotion, he is seen as human. If a woman shows the same, she is seen as weak.

    I wish you would get software to allow editing comments and allow users to create an account to follow threads.
    The comment section of this show is far more valuable to me than what hits the air.

  • michael

    Funny,

    the first thing the house republicans want to tackle is not job creation or the economy but attacking iran, unwaving support for israel and an tougher stance against easying restriction on cuba, keeping even more troops in iraq and afganstain.

    Nothing campaign about during the last election 2010,oh yea there opening up tons of investigations as well.

  • BHA

    “anti tax, anti regulation”

    I guess Boehner hasn’t figured out yet why the world’s economies crashed.

    Listen up bud: GREEDY people, GREEDY corporations, lax or no REGULATION of that greed.

    - caveat emptor – except a LOT of people in the world got screwed by the few and had no way to “beware” of what they were “buying” because they weren’t buying anything.

  • peter nelson

    To this Democrat, John Boehner is target #1.

    I don’t know what you think is so good about the Democrats. I delineated, above, how they are just as much in bed with corporate interests and the GOP and how they are just as responsible for the financial mess and our quagmire in Iraq (12 new bombings today) as the GOP.

    The Democrats are just Republicans-Lite. And just like “lite” beer and “lite” yogurt and “lite” butter, they’re somehow less satisfying and less filling than the real thing. I can understand why American voters are turned off by them

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    I actually have close relatives in Boehner’s district, and have read Christmas letters on the subject. If my relations are any example of people north of Cincinnati, they work hard and do extremely well. They organize to benefit their communities, and can’t really understand how this cannot happen for any-body, for any community. You pull together and get it together, and OF COURSE things go fine. If not, you take your two cars, your two children, and move. Of course you get a bigger house, and you do better each step of the way.

  • Jamey

    I’m very impressed with anyone that seems to be so committed to their career and serving the people of their community. Though he and I don’t share politics I do admire him for not downplaying the importance of his job to him. However, I don’t think making a hero out of this man because he identified and showed an emotion in public is really the way to go.

  • http://www.warblerwoods.com Pete

    Gail,

    I take issue with your very general, meaningless statement. I am not “ignorant” for voting for an incumbent, in this case, my rep. John Spratt who has done LOTS for his state. Others who voted against could not even give a reason why they liked his opponent & actually claimed to have liked Spratt anyway. Outside money stated he had “San Francisco Values.” This has everything to do with the warping of identity and people voting for who they identify with, NOT going with any sort of facts.

  • Ann, Barrington, Rhode Island

    “The people’s business”!!!, my EYE!!! Boehner speaks with FORKED TONGUE!!!!

    His words are lingo for “the lobbyists’ business and the business of the gigantic corporations and the most wealthy!!

  • jeffe

    peter what do you mean? They want power they don’t care about the real issues. If they did we would have had single payer health care system by now.

    What part of this don’t you understand? That the politicians are tied to the special interest and do their bidding? As the Senate part of the health care bill is a perfect example, or what? What don’t you get about my comment?

    Or is it that you just try to find things in peoples comments to knock down, which is your deal mostly. You make good points and then you go on the attack. It’s kind of old.

  • JS from NY

    This guy’s example of Boehner being reasonable is to hold back on his quest to eliminate OSHA? Really? He wanted to de-regulate worker safety?

    Why do people elect these selfish, pro-corporate, worker hating morons?

  • michael

    republicans can reduce the debt by 147 million a year

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/11/09/131192182/cotton

    147 million(per year) borrowed from china to pay Brazilian cotton farmers. The farmers are getting paid and still selling there goods against the U.S. no other country has such a deal.

  • BHA

    Good point caller Shannon.

    The answer to why Boehner isn’t more compassionate with the plight of the poor: “I’ve got mine … screw you”

  • peter nelson

    John Spratt who has done LOTS for his state.

    In US politics “doing a LOT for your state” (or district) is usually synonymous with bringing in pork or fighting to keep the pork there, for example resisting efforts to close military bases in the district or to cancel federal contracts representing local jobs.

    Some other democracies have at least some “at large” legislators to counter this, but our constitution has no such provisions and Americans probably couldn’t handle the concept anyway.

  • Dennis – Jamaica Plain

    I’m tired of every congress-person, on both sides of the aisle, pointing fingers at each other yet none provide realistic options for cutting the deficit. We need drastic measures similar to what the UK is doing. Americans are uninformed and lazy and want what they want without having to sacrifice and it’s pathetic.

  • Dave

    Again, On Point’s Beltway guests obfuscate the nature of the Tea Party, and thus Speaker Boehner’s potential interactions with them.

    Of course the original Tea Partier, Ron Paul, speaks incessantly about the need to cut the military, and reduce our interventionist policies that help bankrupt us.

    If the goal is to cut spending significantly, Ron Paul types (his son Rand on the record to cut military too) then the Tea Party will help, not hinder Boehner achieve those goals.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Jeffe, Peter, about both parties being sort of owned by lobbyists and campaign financers, about there being no real choice for the non-corporate interests.
    For one thing, it occurs to me, if the corporate interests were NOT so manipulative (and often so wrong), we might not be so negative about them. Okay, when Goldman Sachs et al err to the extent the housing bubble pushes us off a cliff, nobody likes them.
    This election we had an independent running for congressperson in a district near mine. He actually came from a sort of gerrymandered town almost in the middle of my own district. Anyway, he ran independent, and he is retired, not the kind to look at the job of legislator as an opportunity to stay in place and gather up golfing invitations to Scotland. I heard him debate. He’s good. He lost hugely. Why? The Democrat in power who won has been serving that district since, oh, maybe the 1960s. He’s a good public servant, and with lots of seniority. To vote for the independent would be throwing away a vote. The Republican, who did get some support, was sort of parochial, to what I saw, representing uninformed positions.

  • yar

    On the contract from America, are citizens the best engineers of our legislation?
    Think of the sports stadium, what would fans vote for in size of a seat? I can see a stadium of lazy-boy rockers. Sounds great, until you figure that 75,000 lazy-boys put you about half a mile form the field. We want services but don’t expect to pay for them. We are hypocrites, we need leadership that point that out.

  • T. Jefferson

    yar,

    If you like central planning, China is booming. I’m sure they will welcome your allegiance.

  • peter nelson

    What don’t you get about my comment?

    My point is that they should want power, they should want to keep their job!

    That’s how our system is designed to work. But people who complain about it say it like it’s a bad thing.

    The desire to keep their job is how we motivate them. If the American people really wanted healthcare reform then those who didn’t deliver it would LOSE their jobs and power and those who did deliver it would keep their jobs and power.

    Actions speak louder than words. Voting is an act, what you tell a pollster is a word. The American people have made it clear by their action that healthcare, banking reform, etc, are not high priorities with them

  • JS from NY

    Where was the Tea-Party/Boehner when Bush lied us into a needless multi-trillion dollar war?

    Except for a few libertarians they were amongst the stupid jingoistic Republicans.

  • Dwayne

    The issues relating to the current job crisis is 2 fold.
    In John Boehner’s case, I am baffled as to the logic of his voting against bills that would penalize companies who outsource jobs. You see clear evidence of this when computer giant Dell announces that they are investing $100 million in China over the next 10 years while clearing ignoring the crisis at home. We wont even talk about the Bush cut.
    This brings me to my second point. As it sits, the only jobs that the government can bring to the people are the government ones. As long as Americans continue to spend money at companies like Walmart or buy their high end toys ie:Apple, the job market will never improve. Simple mathematics can show this. If ever American family (77 million) were to buy a computer that was “American made” at $1000.00, allowing for employee costs of 80%, material costs at 10% and 10% profit margins, you could create over 1.2 million jobs @$50/yr. Now allow for $10,000 in spending per family on American products..12.5 million jobs!! The government cannot do that for you. YOU CAN

  • jim thompson, fort mill,sc

    I guess there is always the chance for redemption for everyone. However, it seems somewhat tacky to have someone who was seen handing out checks from the tobacco companies to Republican members of Congress on the House floor as Speaker. Since that episode I’ve always thought of John Boehner as someone who is “for sale”.

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    More like “Contract on America”
    We are Doomed and “Bonehead” will lead the charge.

    “Republicans: Hypocrites?
    or
    Schizophrenic Hypocrites?”
    Charles A. Bowsher

    My father was a lifelong Republican, and a Buckeye, but he is rolling over in his grave with this current crop of “Republicans”. My father had a heart, these bozo’s are selfish and heartless.

    I am sick and tired of hearing about keeping the American Dream alive for the next generation from the very people who seem to do everything possible to destroy it. More important would be for us to conserve our resources, protect our environment, and educate our populace if we intend to “Keep the American Dream Alive”. As far as I can see, their “dream” is a nightmare.

    Can someone please give me a little hope?

  • ThresherK

    Only by the standards of Time magazine can one call President Obama “kind of a liberal Democrat”.

    “Lobbyists don’t sway Congressmen”? No, but if I’m representing Missletucky’s eleventieth district and a Big Tobacco check is being waved around with John Boehner’s seal of approval, is someone to think this doesn’t make a difference?

    And I love the Nice Polite Republican false equivalence (I forget which panelist did this.) The GOP literally passing out lobbyists’ checks on the floor of the House of Representatives. The Democrats’ equivalent? Not something which was a scandal, but an idea of transgression with an approved nickname, “Cornhusker Kickback”, and that’s good enough for him.

    Go Anthony Weiner!

  • JS from NY

    This election was not about “core values” it was about “CORPORATE MONEY”.

  • Dan

    Who is Scott, and why do you let people like him on your show? He didn’t say anything! He posited a “root” of “American values” and said that the “Obama agenda” was “a mile wide and a quarter-inch deep.” What on earth does that even *mean*?

    To non-Tea Partiers, this is absolutely meaningless, bordering on absurd. Please stop speaking in dog whistles! Get real about what your policy priorities are, and quit hiding behind glib generalizations. You want to cut spending? Great, let’s get down to brass tacks: what cuts are you going to make to Medicare, Social Security, and Defense?

    -dan
    Boston, MA

  • T. Jefferson

    “banking reform, etc, are not high priorities with them”

    No banking reform?

    I think the only thing everyone but the establishment Democrats and Republicans with their Wall St Banker string pullers agree on, is the need for accountability from the banking sector. From Progressives to Tea Partiers. I think they are a majority. Again conflating regular Tea Party folks with Neoconservative cronies is a silly, inaccurate, and unhelpful mistake for moving our country foward.

    The more establishment people mix TPers with Neocons, the more you are handing the Neocon Republicans a very undeserved gift. If anything people need to continue to highlight the differences, and leave the established Republican party, standing naked in the snow.

  • JS from NY

    Banana Republic-GAP-OLD NAVY = same company, different brands

    Billionaire Banana Republicans-GOP-TEA PARTY = same company, different brands

  • T. Jefferson

    “Where was the Tea-Party/Boehner when Bush lied us into a needless multi-trillion dollar war?”

    Again! Why do you equate them? Its so lazy and uninformed.

    All dogmatic Democrats who let their knee-jerk hatred of Tea Party rabble confuse them with regular Republicans, are just handing the Republicans a gift.

    Reject the Welfare/Warfare State
    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1191

  • Dan

    Who is this woman from Kentucky!? John Boehner was the man who said “Hell no!” to the health care bill…and she sees him as the harbinger of compromise and conciliation?

    Are you people even paying attention? Your caller is either woefully ignorant, blindingly stupid, or some awful combination of the two, and I’m not sure which option would be worst.

    -dan
    Boston, MA

  • nj

    Can anyone enlighten us as to what the Orange One has accomplished in his professional career?

    Important legislation (aside from groundbreaking things like defunding ACORN, recognizing the accomplishments of Jack Kemp, etc.)?

    Anything? Anyone?

  • Carlo Danese

    All this talk about legislation coming from the republicans is a screen. Their main objective is to make Obama a 1 term president and if that means total gridlock they are willing to do that. And they are supported by all the big business that pulls their strings who are sitting on capital not because of uncertainty but until the republicans deliver a resumption of the new gilded age begun under Bush. Nothing less.

  • BHA

    Caller Jane: HA HA HA HA HA!!!

    Oh yeah, the Republicans are now, all of a sudden, going to work with the Democrats? They didn’t do it when they were in the minority, they sure as he11 aren’t going to do it with a majority in the House.

    Lady, if you voted out Democrats and voted in Republicans because they weren’t cooperating with each other, thinking they would NOW work together, you either drank the Republican Kool-aid or are seriously stupid.

  • peter nelson

    I guess there is always the chance for redemption for everyone. However, it seems somewhat tacky to have someone who was seen handing out checks from the tobacco companies to Republican members of Congress on the House floor as Speaker.

    It may seem tacky to you but to most Americans it seems refreshingly honest considering that the Democrats are just as up to their ears in lobbyists’ money and influence but they skulk and sneak around about it.

    Look at Barney Frank – chair of the House financial Services committee and 4 of his top 5 donors were financial services companies! He talks a good line about reform but what do you think of the “reform” we actually got?

    You guys are just buying into the media’s propaganda that there’s some big difference between the parties. Didn’t you read 1984? Don’t you remember Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia?

  • Wes

    Big government is not the problem. Big business is. We the people should do whatever we can to break up the “too big to fail” big businesses into smaller more manageable businesses. Right now big business runs the government because it is too big and too powerful. Both parties are being manipulated by big multinational businesses. The Tea Party has only one solution to every problem. That is the elimination of taxes. This is a simplistic and counterproductive goal.

  • Sheila Newtown

    I was wondering about the hypocrisy concerning who can show emotion and get away with it and who can’t. This has puzzled me for a long time. It seems to be o.k. for Mr. Boehner to show emotion, but you can be sure if someone who disagrees with Republican policies does that, they would be crucified by the media led by FOX. So what’s the deal conservatives are allowed human foibles but others aren’t?

  • ThresherK

    It’s hilarious that on a show from NPR that the one liberal has to waste some of his precious time bringing up the fact that 40 amendments from the GOP were in Affordable Care Act. How many GOP votes did that end up getting? How reasonable does that nugget make the GOP sound?

    A firebrand liberal is forced to start his argument, to this panel, by reciting facts about the current Congress. Too bad there isn’t a journalist around to have made these points sometime in the preceding 45 minutes.

  • jeffe

    peter you’re kidding right? You think a majority of Americans voted during this last election? Do you think they know what they want? I don’t, I saw a lot selfish middle aged white people getting more air time then they deserved who wanted their country back. Really? “Their country”?

    Hardly a majority. Our representatives have to raise money all the time. They spend more time doing this than really doing what they were voted in for.

  • JS from NY

    “Why do you equate them?”
    @TJ

    You helped put this just say NO to jobs, healthcare, financial regulation idiot in power and you haven’t answered the question. Where were you when republicans were busting budgets since Nixon/Eisenhauer?

    It is stupid and lazy to be pimped completely by corporations.

  • peter nelson

    All this talk about legislation coming from the republicans is a screen. Their main objective is to make Obama a 1 term president and if that means total gridlock they are willing to do that.

    And if that’s what gets them votes then what’s the problem? If people really didn’t like that, or if the Democrats showed people a REAL alternative then the GOP would lose the next election.

  • jim thompson, fort mill,sc

    Perhaps the Democrats in the GOP controlled Congress can abstain on certain votes. When the issue of raising the debt ceiling comes up let the GOP rule and show folks the consequences. Don’t vote yes on raising the limit while they have a handful vote yes then use the issue against the Democrats and President.

    Don’t help the GOP implement their agenda and get beat up by them too.

  • T. Jefferson

    The new embrace of fundamental liberty principles that the country is experiencing after reflecting on our great crash brought on by collusion between big government and big banking, is like a chinese finger puzzle for dogmatic liberals. The more they struggle against it and the more they fight it, the more immobilized they will become. We are not, at heart, a Central Planning, or Socialist country. People have enough distrust of big institutions from government to banks, with no accountability, to continue to believe in limited government, more local control, and largely an individualist, not collectivist, society, as a hedge against big power.

    Small is Beautiful.

  • JP

    The commentator is right… there will be a collision.

    … and President Obama will win, as HE is the one holding the VETO pen!

  • yar

    Why did Obama work on healthcare? He sees it as the major burden for the country in the future. That is my definition of leadership. One who only channels the whims of the populace is a fool. We need work to move the populace toward rational ideal, move their reaction above that of a jellyfish.
    Shows like this are intendede to help, although often I am disappointed.

  • T. Jefferson

    “It is stupid and lazy to be pimped completely by corporations.”

    -JS

    Where were you when Libertarians were trying to explain all this to a moronic culture in love with their Democrat/Republican dogamatic Welfare/Warfare puppet system?

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

  • peter nelson

    peter you’re kidding right? You think a majority of Americans voted during this last election?

    Who cares about the ones who didn’t vote? The ones who vote are the ones who count.

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    Carlo Danese at 1048
    Right on! Right on!

    And now my comment
    IF you think the Tea-party mirrors you I suggest you find Rand Pauls most recent blurb where he is asked about continuing the tax cuts for the wealthy. He is totally in favor of it and he actually said something along the lines

    -that giving tax cuts to the wealthy benefits everyone because everyone either sells something to the wealthy or they work for the wealthy.-

    Honest to God, he said that, we are doomed.
    The tea party, the party without compassion or compunction.

  • Flowen

    Beverly @ 9:15:

    “At least his appointment will signal Big Business to start hiring again. They will have permission to stop holding back.”

    You are so right!

  • JS from NY

    @TJ
    The use of the commons is part of our tradition as well. And when you libertarians seek to have it sullied by unchecked corporations with your utopian business freedom claptrap I like to look behind the few believers like you and always find some billionaire sticking a greenback in your collection plate.

  • peter nelson

    The commentator is right… there will be a collision.

    … and President Obama will win, as HE is the one holding the VETO pen!

    How does that represent a win? Remember, the GOP is the party of “no” – they would be happy if nothing is done.

    And keep in mind that Congress controls the purse strings. Appropriations have to be PASSED or government comes to a halt. You can’t pass an appropriation with a veto pen.

  • jeffe

    Good attitude peter. I care, I think the 18 to 25 age group were charged up by Obama, and he used them, and now they are pretty much lost. That kind of thing wont work anymore. So you’re OK about turning the country over to the Tea party agenda?

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    Yar at 1056 -Right on!
    In case anyone isn’t clear why Health Care cost is the elephant in the room please realize that rising Health Care costs that the reform was trying to stem includes Medicare. Combined, they will bankrupt the country in short order if we allow the current system to continue. Plus we are left with I think it is now 50,000,000 uninusred. Now that is a voting block that needs to be organized….

  • T. Jefferson

    “ig government is not the problem. Big business is. We the people should do whatever we can to break up the “too big to fail” big businesses into smaller more manageable businesses. Right now big business runs the government because it is too big and too powerful. Both parties are being manipulated by big multinational businesses. The Tea Party has only one solution to every problem. That is the elimination of taxes. This is a simplistic and counterproductive goal.”

    Sounds simplistic and counterproductive because your soundbyte interpretation of it is wrong.

    Many, many of the problems with “Big Business”, that all Americans rightly abhor, are precisely due to collusion with, and protection by, Big Government. All Americans, from Libertarians to Marxists, don’t want to be serfs to any Corporation. And they all have methods, via Legislative Frameworks, to reign in the excesses of the worst in human nature. Some just want to regulate as little as possible, to achieve those goals while preserving the possibility of free individuals to make as many choices as possible, while others think we would be better off having a group of “enlightened” planners in a central government tell us all how to live.

    Neither has a desire for monopoly, murder, pollution etc.

    To say Tea Partiers or Libertarians want NO Taxes or NO government or NO laws is simply stupid. If you honestly believe those things and hope that all your dogmatic friends do, we have no hope of finding common cause, doing the most rational things to achieve our goals for accountability, prosperity and liberty, moving this country forward.

  • Phil

    Hey Boehner, now the shoe is on the other foot. Maybe now you will consider being open to compromise.

  • peter nelson

    So you’re OK about turning the country over to the Tea party agenda?

    That’s like asking if I’m OK with the weather. It is what it is.

    Whether the 18-30 y.o.’s have any say in their future is up to them. As is the nature of that say – left, right, or whatever. Voting is like dieting or good study habits – no one can make you do it. And as I’ve said here many times before, voting is the LEAST important part of the process. What really counts is how much time people devote to studying the issues and how they go about that.

    You and I have no more control over those things than we do over the weather, so why sweat it?

  • T. Jefferson

    “the tea party, the party without compassion or compunction.”

    Charles, why not go out to some Tea Party events, meet some human beings, talk to them, and then come back and report to us.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Charles, if Rand Paul is still saying tax cuts to the wealthy “because everyone either sells something to the wealthy or they work for the wealthy,” then where has he been for the last 10 years??? To be sure, that is what it has come to: If you can’t serve the wealthy in some way, you are going to be living on a shoestring.
    Why do jobless young women go into nursing? There is Big Money (insurance money) behind health care.
    Why do people become extremely good builders of yachts? Because we support the rich, who have been buying them as long as we have voted them tax breaks.
    If I wanted to write books for children, I would want to write those books to appeal to parents and grandparents with disposable income.
    If I want to earn money as a waitress, I look for tips from the stylish restaurant, not the local greasy spoon.
    What is the objection to this that Rand Paul misses?
    Aren’t some of us (90 percent or so of us) interested in goods and services that are NOT geared for the wealthy? Oh, for that we buy goods from China and services from Indian phone banks.
    It is our TRAGEDY that so much of our profit depends upon the wealthy. More of our GDP should be generated for and by the not-so-rich. Right now, there is a donut hole the size of a large pizza between what the wealthy want/buy at top cost and top profit versus what is subsidized but made “affordable” to all (food stamps, affordable housing, daycare if a child is in the custody of Social Services, health care if you are poor/disabled). There is a crack you can fall into. You can find the only good alternative is a product made in Mexico. The American economy offers quality, yes, but who can afford it?
    This is what Republicans seem to think is the way to go.

  • JS from NY

    @TJ
    Yes this 2-party system is corrupt. You’ll get no argument from me there. But right now, this moment, people need healthcare, unemployment insurance or a job, a more stable financial system, and a host of other things. The Republicans are COMPLETELY OWNED by corporations and have no problem sacrificing American lives and resources for their own interests. The Democrats have their own serious issues of corporate influance but they also have a modicum of fealty to their flesh and blood constituents.

    Middle class wages have remained stagnant since Reagan sold missiles to Iran.

    The Tea Party people are a front for corporate control.

  • jeffe

    You and I have no more control over those things than we do over the weather, so why sweat it?
    True, but if something does not change it will effect us.
    Health care is bankrupting the country, something has to be done besides brown nosing the special interest.

  • nj

    Re. T. Jefferson (10:55):

    [[ The new embrace of fundamental liberty principles that the country is experiencing after reflecting on our great crash brought on by collusion between big government and big banking, is like a chinese finger puzzle for dogmatic liberals. The more they struggle against it and the more they fight it, the more immobilized they will become. We are not, at heart, a Central Planning, or Socialist country. People have enough distrust of big institutions from government to banks, with no accountability, to continue to believe in limited government, more local control, and largely an individualist, not collectivist, society, as a hedge against big power.

    Small is Beautiful. ]]

    Mr Jefferson would have us believe that the lack of effective, government oversight and regulation which allowed and abetted the Wall Street/sub-prime mortgage/credit default swap debacle was a failure of “liberal” philosophy.

    This, of course, is nonsense, since deregulation of large, powerful institutions is the antithesis of real liberalism. Regulation of large, powerful corporate and financial institutions cannot be left to “local control.”

    The issue is not the size of government so much as whose interests the government works to protect.

    It’s also nonsense to claim that we are “largely” an “individualist” society. We live in an interconnected web of organizations and relationships and depend on other people and system for our most basic needs.

    Go try to produce all your own food and water; build, plow, and repair the roads you use; repair your own house and car; etc.

  • peter nelson

    Now that is a voting block that needs to be organized….

    What makes you think it’s a voting bloc, i.e., that it votes? Or cares?

    I know uninsured people who just don’t care. I personally don’t get it but it’s true. Some of them are very religious, some of them just trust to luck, some of them may be whistling past the graveyard. The ones I know mostly live in the south (where I have relatives), so maybe it’s a cultural thing, and some of them are TP’ers.

    But the bottom line is that liberals seem to think that everybody should think like they do and they’re baffled if they don’t.

  • T. Jefferson

    With respect, I don’t think Ron Paul is a front for corporate control.

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

    Regardless of whether one feels Democrats still have a “modicum of fealty to their constituents”, the way they are intertwined with the Fed Banking, Military industrial complex along with the Republicans, makes it impossible to fund their putatively compassionate programs. Once we dump the 2-party Bank/War Machine, we can reinvent our basic safety nets, and a more sustainable way forward, economically, ecologically, and with individual liberty.

    If dogmatic 2-party types are ready to say that individual liberty is a quaint, old-fashioned idea that we can’t afford anymore, and that we need to trust a big central planning government, then this is a sad time indeed.

    “History does not teach fatalism. There are moments when the will of a handful of free men breaks through determinism and opens up new roads.” ~Charles de Gaulle

  • peter nelson

    “the tea party, the party without compassion or compunction.”

    Charles, why not go out to some Tea Party events, meet some human beings, talk to them, and then come back and report to us.

    I know a lot of Tea Partiers and I second the “without compassion” claim. I’ve talked to them and not one has a CLUE about healthcare reform. They simply do not care that people are literally dying because they cannot afford healthcare and have no access to insurance.

    And they don’t care that over half of all personal bankruptcies are die to medical expenses – people who worked hard and saved all their lives and lose everything due to a sudden illness or injury.

    The Tea Party’s basic philosophy is “I’ve got mine, Jack, @#$*! you.”

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Peter, are you talking about the freeloaders? The people who get mandated open doors at emergency rooms and end up zooming my health insurance premiums? Are you talking about people who don’t want to pay taxes but are perfectly happy to zoom the taxes that someone like me does pay? We won’t pay our share, but we’ll certainly complain if our son the veteran comes back from Afghanistan and can’t get the best care available? That sort of libertarian?
    They can’t understand that others might think differently? I mean, I can’t understand that they might differently?
    I don’t think greed and selfishness are “thinking” stances. They are a nonthinking stance, which can get us all into trouble if one votes upon such.

  • T. Jefferson

    “Go try to produce all your own food and water; build, plow, and repair the roads you use; repair your own house and car; etc”

    Now your getting somewhere! Put down your ipad and do something real!

    If people who really care about our ecosystems and strip malls and fossil fuel use etc etc would actually walk the walk……..

    Still waiting for the central government to tell you how to be truly green?

  • Beverly

    JEFFE,

    I disagree with you about one thing.

    As part of the Republican/Big Business plot, now that Republicans are legally back at the helm again, every huge corporation will begin hiring, & doing everything they were supposed to have been doing all along. The floodgates will all open simultaneously, & the Economy will SOAR.

    The Country will rapidly become prosperous, (as it was at the end of the Clinton era), far beyond any predictions or expectations. People will be dancing in the streets, singing “Happy Days Are Here Again”. Republicans will, wrongly, be given credit for the Recovery, without having to do a thing; Big Business will get the ball rolling.

    Naive Americans, (not known for being astute), will think, “Hey! These guys are great! As soon as they gained control, we got our jobs back. They really know their stuff. We need a Reublican president.”

    Democrats, (after all they’ve gone through to winch us out of the Republican pit), will be deemed worthless. Republicans are our saviors, can do no wrong, & can get away with murder…AGAIN.

    Right from under our noses, they’ll take away our health care, “rederegulate” everything, (allowing Wall St. to run wild), remove all protection put in place for the middle class, lower the minmum wage to $2 an hour, & we’ll be in the bottomless pit of Republican conttol, exactly where we deserve to be if we EVER elect another Republican.

  • ThresherK

    Now Peter, let’s not leave out the peasant mentality (as documented by Matt Taibbi). If the obsequiety they show to the rich is any indication, many of the folk who discovered the words “populism” and “TheConstitution(TM)” after President Obama won may consider themselves simply lesser human beings by the dint of not having vast wealth and power. How that power and wealth was aqcuired or inherited is not to be questioned.

    New Millenial thought? Some folks want to drag us back to Middle Ages, where most people were serfs glad to be toiling on the master’s land, and required to scrape the dirt in his presence.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    T. Jefferson, what you propose is actually what I propose, and I see it happening with a lot of determination where I live. People create their own jobs, but this is in tandem with a city that expects to be self-sustaining. When farms come up for sale, they get bought for community gardens. Open space is carefully preserved. The intention is lots of us can get around to what is needed without fossil fuels. So far, green architecture has been agreed upon and some has been built, but not a whole lot.
    It takes a lot of expertise as well as a lot of commitment, on a city-wide basis, for this to occur. “Small” doesn’t have to mean hermit.

  • ThresherK

    Still waiting for the central government to tell you how to be truly green?

    No, but I’m still waiting for the central government to tell BP how to be green. And Union Carbide. And Dupont. And GE. And Massey Mining.

    I’m waiting for government to be operated by people who actually believe in governance. The Democrats, with all their faults, have a bit of interest in that. The GOP has none.

  • T. Jefferson

    “The issue is not the size of government so much as whose interests the government works to protect.”

    Exactly. In a society that defines itself as largely individualistic, the government protects the individual.

    Have your Dem and Repub friends been doing that? They may give it lip service, but who do they really protect? Mortgage companies? Exxon? Fannie and Freddie? Goldman Sachs? Halliburton? Lockheed Martin?

    Laws protecting individuals would protect against fraud, price fixing, polluting your water, printing money with no accountability to fund bank scams and war etc etc etc.

    Why people are so against the concept of protecting individual liberty, but trust Big power, whether government or corporate, is beyond me.

    Make laws that set limits on corporate behavior. Throw bank and wall street scammers in jail. Punish polluters. None of that, which protect the interests of individuals, is incompatible with Liberty, or requires a huge central government.

    If you are frustrated about the lack of accountability we have had, you should be! We need re-focus on accountability to the basic rules of our society. To confuse that with submitting to the idea that a Centrally planned big government Utopia that will deliver all our comforts, hopes and dreams based on debt spending, does not seem wise.

  • jeffe

    Beverly, I don’t think what your alluding to will happen.
    It’s not how economies work.
    The will most likely take back the White House in 2012, but two years is a huge amount of time in politics.

    I do think either way Obama might be a one term president.

  • peter nelson

    Peter, are you talking about the freeloaders? The people who get mandated open doors at emergency rooms and end up zooming my health insurance premiums? Are you talking about people who don’t want to pay taxes but are perfectly happy to zoom the taxes that someone like me does pay?

    I don’t know if most of them have thought that far ahead. I would exempt the veterans from the discussion because healthcare was part of the deal when they signed up so they can rightfully claim that it’s owed to them.

    But I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from a Tea Partier on this. Ever! You might recall my “Bubba” questions last year. They’re incapable of putting together any coherent thoughts on this.

  • Brett

    For a politician to make pork (which represents such a small fraction of spending and is often the only way certain districts get needed projects completed in their area) his beef, sounds like a true populist who can change stripes depending on which way the political winds blow! (Okay, that was the use of three metaphors regularly heard in politics…how many points is that?)

  • JS from NY

    @TJ
    I call BS on your defense of Rand Paul. This guy is a Republican! A doctor who made his money off medicare!
    Please! Why didn’t he become a democrat? The Democrats balanced the budget with Clinton. Obama decreased the deficit last year compared to Bush’s last year. Republicans and Bush have increased the size of Government…why is Rand Paul a Republican?

    You Tea people make no sense.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    T. Jefferson, you have redefined the American Dream for me. It never occurred to me before. Utopia for the peasants; with a big Red hammer and sickle flying over every McDwelling in ticky-tackyville.
    It really never occurred to me. I think I see now what those who vote Republican are afraid of. I don’t think the corporate masters of the Democrats have exactly that in mind, though. Certainly no Democrats individuals I know of have that in mind.
    So that is a new one. Step up, step up, what will you pay for this shiny new American dream-deal? Fifty percent of your income to Uncle Sam in taxes, and we will deliver identical drive-up living situations for everyone born in America. Just vote Democrat and you shall have it. No competition necessary.
    ???

  • JS From NY

    @TJ

    Good health care systems exist right now…all over the world, they are not a utopia.

    The election of Republicans (Rand Paul) by people like fake Thomas Jefferson will make it more difficult for the US to have a good health care system.

  • Brett, from the state where the founders had their mansions

    I keep forgetting…

  • peter nelson

    Exactly. In a society that defines itself as largely individualistic, the government protects the individual.

    How does it protect the individual?

    If the individual is sick or injured and has no health insurance how is he protected? If the individual owns a house and sees its value erased because big banks did stupid, irresponsible things how is he protected? If the individual works for a corporation that moves his job offshore and dumps him into an economy with a 10% unemployment rate how is he protected? If an individual is a farmer trying to play by the rules but other farmers undercut him by hiring cheap, illegal workers how is he protected?

    The government looks out for the interests of the wealthy individuals.

  • Brett, from Virginia

    “How does it [the government] protect the individual?

    If the individual is sick or injured and has no health insurance how is he protected? If the individual owns a house and sees its value erased because big banks did stupid, irresponsible things how is he protected? If the individual works for a corporation that moves his job offshore and dumps him into an economy with a 10% unemployment rate how is he protected? If an individual is a farmer trying to play by the rules but other farmers undercut him by hiring cheap, illegal workers how is he protected?

    The government looks out for the interests of the wealthy individuals.” -peter nelson

    This is why it mystifies me that working-class and poor neo-cons gravitate toward modern, populist conservatism. It is also at the heart of the “Bubba question.”

  • T. Jefferson

    Sounds great Ellen.

    Just imagine if people really embraced the concept of self-sufficiency again. Maybe not at the level of the individual, but at least the neighborhood, town, county, state, nation? EEEEK! ISOLATIONIST!

    Our Big government/Big corporate status quo could NEVER stand to see us move toward self-sufficiency. No loans, no free interest to bankers, no sugar daddy politicians, no wars for more more more, no mega-markets to rig for political gain!

    Again tea partiers, survivalists whatever, while maybe more paranoid than we agree with, easily share alot of basic goals with back to the lander, live-simply progressives.

    Imagine if people spent 25% of the time they spend on the computer, in a garden.

    Would we have the massive, destructive consumerism we have, without a Fed/Debt spending to bankroll it and provide the $ that supports all the corporations that we are lapdogs to?

    We are just the vessels carrying Fed printed money to corporations, and individuals are the ones who suffer the collateral damage from the system.

    Imagine if we stopped all the Keynsian stimulus and actually let the markets reset to a point where we actually needed to make some decisions about priorities again. What is important to you, as an individual, a family, a community? But of course then we would stop spending on so much crap, and wouldn’t demand such inflated salaries and we couldn’t ever generate the taxes to pay back our debt to China and…. well we can’t have that! Start the printing presses! Get those strip malls humming again!

  • michael

    As I pointed this out many times that the senate is currently naturally undemocratic where the minority(often smaller percentage of voters) wield more power than the majority. And if the house was 100% republican or democrats and the senate consisted of at least 40 senator against them or less than 60 in the majority the will of the people voting in congress will be watered down/rejected.

    So if the majority of Americans that voted 51+ % of say single payer the minority of 40% or less could stop such.

  • T. Jefferson

    “Exactly. In a society that defines itself as largely individualistic, the government protects the individual.” TJ

    ‘How does it protect the individual?

    The government looks out for the interests of the wealthy individuals.’ PN

    Yes, I was stating the ideal, the ideal of Libertarians, and you are stating the reality, the reality of our current 2-party system.

  • Flowen

    Beverly @ 11:31

    I think you’re right about the Corporates opening up the job hiring spigot for political purposes (supporting Repubs), but I don’t believe it will work for them as well as you think. Don’t worry so much.

    First, the Corporates will hire as you suggest, but they can’t go from 0 to 60 very fast because domestic demand is still flat on its back, and there isn’t a lot for all those new workers to do.

    The economy is so weak for the bottom 67% of the population there can be no quick turn-around.

    What I believe is coming is a bi-furcated economy, a Tale of Two Economies. The economy for the Haves is already soaring, with more in the pipeline; it will do little to nothing for the bottom 67%; and that is the coming opportunity for real change, one way or the other.

    You are right though re: Corporate/Government (esp Repubs as they are waxing) manipulation. Even today, Lower unemployment claims, and talk about benefits for middle class homeowner mortgages is all over the media.

    I have been predicting a Middle Class bribe coming. The above is falling into place, and I still expect cash bribes coming. They are so predictable; it is only exceeded by their corruption, lies, and criminality.

  • JS from NY

    Tea People, please tend to your gardens and stop voting for Republicans against your interest.

    They are poisoning the water.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    T. Jefferson, I think the difference between the Tea Party libertarians and the take-responsibility-for- yourself type Democrats like me is that the Tea Party is tied to corporations somehow. Don’t ask me how. Agreed, corporate America/federal tax policy makes it tough for the “small” approach. I call it the non-jobs approach, and I complain that a job is a kind of indenture that insulates the people/voters with jobs from a lot of the realities they need to be voting on. When Obama says he wants to promote jobs, I think he is promoting corporate interests. Small business may actually create most of the jobs (in America, versus those outsourced by bigger businesses), but there are reasons why the smaller a business is, the tougher the going. The tax code is written for those who already have it made, and to protect the jobs thusly created. The tax code is not designed to encourage upstart competitors.
    So. I forget where I was going. Oh, why I wouldn’t join the Tea party, nor they join me, despite interests in common.
    Actually, Americans surely have pretty much all interests in common; the question is how to get there. Or whether we can “get there” at all, that is, safely into the next century. I’m afraid we have to learn to look that far ahead.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    Modern Republicans protect and FAVOR Wealthy Individuals and Corporations.

    Modern Democrats protect and FAVOR both of them to perhaps a lesser extent, but also envision a Centralized, Government-knows-best, society and economy.

    Only Libertarians try to make the case for simply protecting, while NOT FAVORING all individuals and trusting in the combined decision making of all the individuals to decide what is valuable or not. While the more enlightened of you out there may loathe your rusty old car neighbors, do you really think we should have a society where they lose their ability to choose for themselves and benefit or suffer from the consequences? Were you enlightened at birth? Did your parents teach your enlightenment? Did you gain it through trial and error, mistakes and efforts and reflection? Would you like someone to take that freedom to explore and decide and feel consequences away from you? Would you like some SOMA?

    Do you really think we can afford a cradle to grave Utopia, and at the same time maintain the motivation, drive and innovation to be productive and creative in our existential struggle against entropy?

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “Tea People, please tend to your gardens and stop voting for Republicans against your interest.

    They are poisoning the water.”

    You got it! Now tell them the problem with Democrats…. and then lets work on a platform/solution that doesn’t need to infringe on peoples liberties, but instead protects your ability to pursue life liberty and happiness without being conscripted to interventionist wars to feed our Debt/War machine to perpetuate our Best Buy economy to perpetuate our crappy job serfdom Ellen mentions.

  • Flowen

    T. Jefferson @ 11:37

    I don’t hear a lot of people pushing for a centralized planning government around here.

    Most people that I read on this board are trying to focus on the criminality of the Political Blasters doing the bidding of their Corporate Masters.

    Speaking for myself, while I recognize the good energy (from good people who really need and seek change) that has gone into the Tea Party, the hidden guiding hand and (the real) leadership of the Tea Party has less interest in the public interest than the Repubs. Go figure, but such as it is, IMHO.

  • JS from NY

    @Ellen Dibble

    I see you are sipping that Republican flavored tea and repeating the lies re: Obama and small business.

    What is your impression of Obama’s efforts on behalf of small business after having reading the FACTS in following link?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/09/10/fact-sheet-president-obama-has-signed-eight-small-business-tax-cuts-law-

  • JS From NY

    @TJ

    “exactly!” then votes for Republican completely against his interest.

    Incoherent Tea.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “So. I forget where I was going. Oh, why I wouldn’t join the Tea party, nor they join me, despite interests in common.
    Actually, Americans surely have pretty much all interests in common; the question is how to get there. Or whether we can “get there” at all, that is, safely into the next century. I’m afraid we have to learn to look that far ahead.”

    A start would be for dogmatic lefties to stop barfing at the sound of the word “Liberty”.

    Is it a thought crime to read “The Road to Serfdom”? To reexamine the questions of what exactly should our government do? Do we want a big centrally planned society/economy? Because I guarantee most people never thought about these things before the crash. Only the “crazies” of course. But with big power comes big corruption, and the individuals, without protection, will always suffer the most.

    Now we are being asked by both parties, for more of the same. Big government and Big Corporations to save the day.

    Many people are starting to ask, “maybe we don’t want to leave our fate in their hands anymore…..” and the first step is removing their power. Support your local co-op, and reject central planning.

    If TPers and folks like Ellen can’t join forces to make a real run at reforming our system, this whole historical moment, with the Emperor naked before us for a brief moment, will have been wasted.

  • peter nelson

    This is why it mystifies me that working-class and poor neo-cons gravitate toward modern, populist conservatism. It is also at the heart of the “Bubba question.”

    That’s because you think it has something to do with logic and facts. It doesn’t.

    I’ve repeatedly said here that politics is theater; it’s not a PowerPoint presentation. Politics is about themes and symbols and iconography and telling a good story. The Democrats stink at this; the Republicans, and especially the Tea Party, excel at it.

    People like a good story because of how it makes them FEEL – the internal logic doesn’t matter so much. Nothing is more boring than when some smart-alec nerdy kid starts deconstructing some movie that you absolutely love pointing out the errors and inconsistencies and discontinuities in it – send that brat to his room!

    Once you’re IN power the logic and numbers do matter for policy. The GOP, for example, has zero chance of balancing the budget and creating jobs, too.

    But I don’t know why anyone is surprised at why people voted for the GOP – they put on a much better performance this year!

  • Beverly

    CORY,

    Thanks for the levity. It’s great! Keep it up.
     OOPS!

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    I hear you FLowen,

    At least you “recognize the good energy (from good people who really need and seek change) that has gone into the Tea Party”.

    Most people are too dogmatic to even see that, and “throw the baby out with the bathwater”. This serves no pragmatic purpose, and discards valid philosophies about contemplating “individualism vs collectivism” that we should always revisit now and again as we attempt to Self-govern.

    Apart from the mainstream Republicans who are desperate to hijack the Tea Party for political gain, I’m not sure I buy the whole guiding hand thing. The Koch brothers are rich Libertarians. They HAVE libertarian views, and see a vehicle in the Tea Party. George Soros sees a vehicle in the Democratic party, and fill in the blank for Neocons. Wealthy supporters may follow the movements, but the ideas are just ideas that everyone should explore and debate based on the logic and empiricism of their employment, not the fact that a rich guy agrees.

    http://reason.com/archives/2010/11/08/the-great-libertarian-conspira

  • peter nelson

    Do you really think we can afford a cradle to grave Utopia, and at the same time maintain the motivation, drive and innovation to be productive and creative in our existential struggle against entropy

    Do you consider the idea that a poor unemployed individual should receive medical care if they become seriously ill or injured utopian?

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    JS, I’m printing out from the link you posted on what Obama has done for Small Business, for future use as a weapon. Our president has a delicate balance to walk, between — well, steering the Titanic. You’ve got to protect that huge investment that is the wonder of the world (the vessel), whilst getting all the lifeboats into action ASAP.
    I take this anti-jobs stance to remind people that there is a connection between corporate clout and this particular populist top-of-the-wish-list need.

    As to whether the Democrats favor the centralized-planning/government-knows-best tea – I mean, koolade, (cool-aid, Welfare?), well, last they were in power, they followed Clinton to REDUCE welfare.
    Michael above re-pointed out that with the rules as to filibuster that applied under Bush and now under Obama, we actually have Rule by the Minority (in the senate, which can block bills with a minority bloc, by 40 or more votes, which Republicans have had and will have).
    What sort of “democracy” is that?
    Have we, since before Reagan, actually seen what Democrats want to bring to us? Oh, there were two years under Clinton before Gingrich? I believe they voted for a balanced budget rule, and after that, the deficit was actually recovering. Correct me if I’m wrong.
    What do Democrats want to do to constrict your life now? I believe elected Democratic congresspeople, who have had to spend all their freetime fund-raising among the well-heeled, would probably have a very different platform than the vast majority of those who actually voted for them.
    Sorry. But that’s what I think. If that makes for a disorganized Democratic electorate, yup. It does.

  • peter nelson

    Libertarianism is like a car that runs on magic – sure it’s clean and quiet and gets fantastic mileage and never breaks down. Only problem is that they never seem to have one on the lot to show you.

    No modern society is constructed on libertarian principles. The US has less regulation and government involvement than the Scandinavian nations or northern European ones like Germany and the Netherlands. Yet those countries have lower deficits (or they have actual surpluses), lower unemployment rates, better (usually positive) current account (trade) balances, lower rates of crime and social problems like teenage pregnancies and STD’s, plus they have universal health insurance, longer lifespans and lower infant mortality.

    By comparison the US is relatively more libertarian and individualistic and scores worse on all those things.

    The LP has been promoting their radical agenda for years. Why don’t they point us to some working contemporary examples? I’m an engineer; I like to see a working prototype before I agree to full production.

  • Flowen

    T. Jefferson @ 12:42

    As Peter Nelson says, there’s more feeling involved than facts, especially regarding the Tea Party.

    What facts I know about the Tea Party is that their funders are anonymous; when they throw a dinner, they charge $500/plate; the self-proclaimed leaders of Tea Party funding/support groups are some of the slimiest individuals I know: Sarah Palin, Dick Armey, Karl Rove, Koch Brothers.

    Their drive for individual freedom translates to legalizing thievery: Koch Brother’s businesses pollute worse than most Big Corporations.

    You’re plenty smart, I like your reference to entropy, how can you not see the ruse?

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “Do you consider the idea that a poor unemployed individual should receive medical care if they become seriously ill or injured utopian?”

    No I don’t. That sounds like a basic safety net. Single payer, competing providers. Eliminate the middleman.

    I just worry that in our sound byte arguments, people are too quick to accept large, centrally controlled, well meaning solutions to things, as the only “compassionate” option. And conclude that Liberty and basic Safety nets are incompatible. I actually DO appreciate liberty as a real thing, that we need to be vigilant about, as protected individuals are the biggest obstacles to big government and big capital, both of which trend tyrannical, and we can’t turn our back to them. A.F. Hayek is a far cry from Ayn Rand.

    http://reason.com/archives/2009/12/18/a-tale-of-two-libertarianisms

  • Ben, Sacramento, CA

    The major difference between the political parties:

    Democrats pretend to care about equality, the environment, and the dwindling middle class.

    Republicans pretend to care about religious issues, security, and decreasing the cost of government.

    The reality is:

    Both parties are enslaved to corporate interests, rape and degrade the environment, and legislate against the middle class. Both parties violate biblical principles on a daily basis, declare war to protect corporate wealth at the cost of security, and the budget deficits continue to balloon regardless of who’s in charge.

    Forget Alkaida. We are our own worst enemy.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    I’d like to see what any society, modern or ancient, actually meant by Libertarian. Do they mean getting away with murder? Claiming no principles except by choice? Do they mean people may not get together and plan? People may not engage in common? May not agree to protect business interests, contracts, standards of justice, arrange for the common defense, all those things set out by our founders? Could you even engage in marriage other than within the scope of a religious vow? No. We’d all be totally unaffiliated. No agreements at all. Buy what you want when you want it.
    Utopia.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “Their drive for individual freedom translates to legalizing thievery: Koch Brother’s businesses pollute worse than most Big Corporations.

    You’re plenty smart, I like your reference to entropy, how can you not see the ruse?”

    I just don’t see any reason why polluting can’t be illegal in a free market economy that is bound by laws that create a level playing field for competition. Again, Libertarians do not espouse NO laws. I could support a small government progressive; one that can be lead by progressive goals, without imposing central solutions, that just beg to be corrupted and grandstood, and bankrolled by Federal Debt money.

    Enforce laws that protect individuals from corrupted large groups and practices. Then just let companies and individuals do their best to create things people want, within the law.

    Aside from a Justice department, and a self-defense military, we don’t need a big government or big debt for that.

  • Flowen

    Ben @ 12:56

    Second That! People don’t recognize that the Corporate/Government Status Quo is a much greater enemy than Al-Quiada and all terrorists put together.

    I won’t get much agreement, and I have a step-son in Afghanistan (who will be done in less than 2 weeks, still holding my breath though), but the #1 reason we are in Afghanistan, IMHO:

    to provide an environment for out Military Industrial Complex to develop, prove, refine, and polish UAV and drone technology.

    We are the Empire in the Star Wars trilogy.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    I think we already have what you want, TJ, except it’s bought and paid for by Big Money. If we stopped bank-rolling powerful interests, with their interest in waging war and making preposterous bets with our money, a thick fog might lift and we would see that what is underlying all that overlay is actually quite manageable, and allows for prosperity and “the purfuit of happiness.”

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    Ben summed it up. 12:56 PM

    Might as well give Ron Paul and the People a try. What have we got to lose? Our party affiliation? Our world-police stature? Our debt payments to central bankers?

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1191

  • Flowen

    T. Jefferson

    It’s just more of the same: get into power and pass laws to enable criminal activity to be ordained “legal.”

    The Tea Party leaders I see are worse liars than Repubs.

  • michael

    All that talk about Libertarians,yet the ones elected ran on the repubilcan ticket, the same republicans who are Libertarian poster is decrying.

    If i recall there is an Libertarian party and much like the green party garners very few votes in all and the Libertarians that do get elected run as repubicans. Even the father or the Libertarian cause and often quoted was part of the reagan Administration (you know an republican)

    Unless someone has facts to prove otherwise Libertarian cannot run on there own platform and is an unrealistic. But Haiti has many of the things Libertarians call for. no to little regulations,small government,no department of education, corporations have free reign, no government welfare,the rich pay low taxes, etc. free market anything goes, little government oversight and tons of corruption(which is weird cause you think under the Libertarian utopia there be non)

    Yet the top 10 list of countries Libertarians (Dave posted an few weeks ago) have both values and ideas that are counter to the ones Libertarians push for and many social programs that they are against.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    ‘If we stopped bank-rolling powerful interests, with their interest in waging war and making preposterous bets with our money, a thick fog might lift and we would see that what is underlying all that overlay is actually quite manageable, and allows for prosperity and “the pursuit of happiness.”’

    And who bankrolls war and banking interests?

    And how do we reel that in?

    I think you’re right, and that is actually quite an optimistic message. We just have to get together as a people and answer these questions, and not let the Ds and Rs in the ring. I’ll take the rough edges of the TP types if they share such goals, over the establishment types who always let the Ds and Rs in the back door, any day.

  • michael

    Flowen,

    “It’s just more of the same: get into power and pass laws to enable criminal activity to be ordained “legal.”

    The Tea Party leaders I see are worse liars than Repubs”

    Remember the tea party is an non-parstian group that has republican,democrats and indenpendents and does not support either party :) of course this was BS yet onpoint and the MSM repeated it(even after poll after poll after poll) was showing they were to the far right of the republican party mostly consisting entirely of republicans, did not reflect the diversty of the U.S. and were older people who were on “Government SS” not to mention backed by many republican insiders.

  • Beverly

    JEFFE,

    I know zilch about economies. 

    However, I AM familiar with the devious GOP, & have a very fertile imagination.

    (Wouldn’t it make a good novel?) 

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    T. Jefferson, Grave, USA, I see by your use of the British (and Canadian) style of quotation marks that you read British or Canadian publications, or did when you were a certain age. That, or you were in a British mindset when you quoted me. Double quotes inside single quotes is English; the reverse is American. So Sherlock Dibble here thinks Grave, USA is in Michigan. We’ll see. That would explain a lot.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    Interesting essay on Libertarianism

    http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/03/18/virginia-postrel/an-18th-century-brain-in-a-21st-century-head/

    michael, I think the problem you see with that list, is in your presumption of what Libertarian means. There ARE anarchic-Libertarians. There are also many who are not. The top 10 list just shows that Libertarian principles are not necessarily incompatible with some core roles for government. Unless one is an anarachist purist. But that still leaves plenty of room between “reasonable” Libertarians and Neocons or Socialists.

    http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/report/rankings.html

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “It’s just more of the same: get into power and pass laws to enable criminal activity to be ordained “legal.”

    The Tea Party leaders I see are worse liars than Repubs.”
    -FLowen

    That would be a problem if true, and I would turn in my grave for that as I do for the status quo.

    Who do you trust to carry my ideal message?

  • Ellen Dibble

    If “libertarian” (as American Teaparty people use it) mainly means minimal taxes, we just have to zero in on “taxation without representation” (the Tea Party) being at the center of American independence.
    Right now we have “representation” determined by the inordinate power of money. One-dollar per one-share of vote. The Supreme Court has said so. Citizens United. Free speech means Paid speech. It has been decreed. If you can pay enough, you can buy enough votes, you can accrue all the “representation” you need.
    We have representation of the money, for the money, and by the money. There is not even a pretense that there is equivalence between voting power and an actual human “voice,” or identity.
    We need to re-link the voter to the vote, without the middleman of campaign financing. Apparently our congresspeople don’t even live in DC, where they can spend the weekend schmoozing and figuring out with the other legislators how to get things done. Which is what we the people surely want. Instead they spend the weekends back where they can be raising money, which is not anywhere in my bailiwick.
    I don’t even get good daily e-mails telling me what my congressional representatives and their staffs have been up to. They might be interested to know I care.

  • Flowen

    T. Jefferson

    I don’t know. I hope something will emerge.

  • ThresherK

    Aside from a Justice department, and a self-defense military, we don’t need a big government or big debt for that.

    I would love for you to vacation in Cancer Alley, or downhill from a hog lagoon. See how much your individuality competes against Cargill’s or Armour’s.

    You need a dose of reality.

  • Richard in Newton, MA

    Posted by Dennis – Jamaica Plain

    “I’m tired of every congress-person, on both sides of the aisle, pointing fingers at each other yet none provide realistic options for cutting the deficit. We need drastic measures similar to what the UK is doing.”

    I’ve been saying just that for the better part of two years and I too am stuck by how dishonest the two predominent messages – “down-size our huge Gov to a state resembling Somalia as the course to fiscal responsibility” from the right or “cut defense and tax the filthy rich until they drop to correct our deficit” approach by the left – are so often repeated as partisan magic bullets. It seemed to me that we could not engage in adult discussions about fiscal responsibility without there having been concurrent discussions about specific spending reductions and increased tax revenue for the majority of Americans in the future once the economy recovered and joblessness rates declined.

    Said this though, I hold our political leaders and pundits less accountable following what’s transpired of late at 30 Millbank, Westminister and to a much lesser extent, the streets of Paris. Had we told Americans who had lost their homes to foreclosure and were struggling to provide that they should expect to be a part of the solution and that tax increases for most able-bodied American should be expected in the future, it would have truly gotten ugly in the US. In many ways, bitching and whining, and voting to throw the bums out is the civilized thing to have done.

  • wavre

    Thanks Ellen,

    Cojones is the word, my spanish is almost inexistant.I was trying hard not to say “balls” that i felt a little disrespectful for those two outstanding ladies.
    The only ladies who are really and with no apologies, “manning-up”in today’s government.

    Another point, let’s compare the ladies of the right( O’Donnell, Palin,Bachman, wrangle ect..) to the ladies of the left( Pelossi, Warren, Hilary,…)

    Mind-boggling, isn’t it??

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “I would love for you to vacation in Cancer Alley, or downhill from a hog lagoon. See how much your individuality competes against Cargill’s or Armour’s.

    You need a dose of reality.”

    You (we) need someone to enforce the law. Sounds like a Republican/Industry corruption problem not a Libertarian problem. A Libertarian system in which dumping hog waste into our rivers, which harms many individuals, is met with real accountability sounds like it would work just fine.

    People rigging the law via government influence, people evading the law via lack of enforcement, and people above the law by raw corruption, is not a Libertarian problem. Libertarians hold forth the Rule of Law, more than anyone, as it is all we have to protect us from big power.

    You’re not still conflating Liberty with Anarchy are you?

  • JS from NY

    @TJ
    Ha!
    You Libertarians defending the Koch Brothers, those Corporate Welfare Queens!
    How does all this small govt. talk reconcile sleeping with these Earmark Alices?

    http://www.observer.com/2010/daily-transom/how-libertarian-koch-bros-benefit-corporate-welfare

    “…a closer look at their dealings reveals that for the past 35 years the brothers have never shied away from using government subsidies to maximize their own profits, even while endeavoring to limit government spending on anything else.”

  • Ellen Dibble

    Or the World Wrestling Republican candidate for senator from Connecticut. Or Met Whitman, the online business magnate running for Republican governor in California. Or Carly Fiorina, ex-executive of Hewlett Packard running against Barbara Boxer for senator in California. There are certainly women representing corporate America’s experience and hopes. I’m sure plenty of women would say Sarah Palin has plenty of cojones and that she is not the corporate type. I think Minnesota has women in Congress with cojones on both the Republican and Democrat side. When you get to Hillary Clinton, she’s been in government so long it’s hard to believe she has the remaining spine to stand up to the special interests. She’d have to be awfully diplomatic (two-faced) to have weathered the last decades and remain immune. There’s a word “jejune,” that I think might specify the degree of uninformed idealism that might be required to measure up to “cojones.” Well, Warren and Pelosi seem to have retained that over the years, so.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    ““…a closer look at their dealings reveals that for the past 35 years the brothers have never shied away from using government subsidies to maximize their own profits, even while endeavoring to limit government spending on anything else.”

    What’s the point? That Dems and Repubs don’t do that? That Dems and Repubs aren’t the party with a platform that calls for removal of corporate subsidies? That to run your business at a disadvantage against Democrat or Republican supported business who take the pork as well would be noble, but competitively stupid?

    George Soro’s Democrats, Dick Cheney’s Neocons, Koch Brother’s Libertarians. Since rich people seem to be everywhere, maybe we’ll have to look at the actual practices and principles and historical tests of the ideas, and not the bogeymen people throw up.

  • Mark

    That’s why we need to get rid of the Democrats and Republicans! Start over!! Political system is indeed too money corrupted!! I don’t vote for either party! Throw all the bums out!!

  • wavre

    Ellen,

    Sarah Palin having cojones? leaving the governmanship mid-term?

    “Jejune”, that,she has plenty of, and i guess the “cojones” to display it shamelessly.

  • cory

    Beverly,

    I guess my “inner adolescent” got the best of me today!
    I can’t believe those posts didn’t get deleted.

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Beverly


    PETER NELSON, (10:37 a.m.)

    The American people made it MUCH clearer, in 2008, that the things you listed are all extremely high priorities.

  • peter nelson

    I’m tired of every congress-person, on both sides of the aisle, pointing fingers at each other yet none provide realistic options for cutting the deficit. We need drastic measures similar to what the UK is doing

    This shows how out of touch Americans are.

    America is farther to the political right than any other major democracy. So, for example, David Cameron, the leader of the Conservative party would be regarded as a flaming “socialist” by the Tea Party! For example, in the election last May he promised to ring fence the NHS (i.e. guaranteed that none of his cuts would affect the NHS).

    But we have nothing like the NHS in the US! And the Republicans have vowed that we never will.

    To put all this another way, if we had what the UK will have AFTER they’re done doing their cuts we would be a more humane egalitarian, compassionate society than we are now!

  • peter nelson

    The American people made it MUCH clearer, in 2008, that the things you listed are all extremely high priorities.

    No they didn’t. 2008 was unique. The recession, the desire for “change” with the collapse of banks and big scary announcements from the car companies. Voters were angry at the GOP because this all happened on their watch. Plus the GOP put up a bizarre ticket an ancient Washington icon and a wacko outsider running mate. Meanwhile the Democrats had lots of media attention all spring and summer with a dramatic race between the would-be first woman president and the would-be first black president. Furthermore Obama turned out to be a gifted orator and utilized the powers of story-telling, iconography and symbolism with rare skill for a Democrat.

    So the 2008 election had all the dramatic elements I described above. I saw people who I though were too jaded to even care literally crying when Obama won. The Democrats’ win had nothing to do with policy and everything to do with drama.

    That’s all worn off and Obama, himself, has lost his touch. He couldn’t prevent a Tea Party-supported candidate from winning the most Democratic state in the US (Massachusetts) earlier. And I saw him on the Daily show 2 weeks ago and he sounded like a college professor and not the fiery orator of 2008. He’s lost 2012 already.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Peter, I’m not going to draw conclusions about how conservative this country based on voting by 30 percent or whatever it is. In fact, I’m not convinced that a 60 percent turnout would give the true picture. Here’s why. If I want to make sure I am sending out directions to lower my taxes, that I’ve had enough of being exploited by the federal government (without bothering to analyze the situation), then I go vote. How complicated is that instruction? “Lower my taxes or get out.” If I want to send out the instruction, please transform the new health care bill ASAP into single payer, that’s a more complicated message. Not every district has a candidate who can carry that message. Candidates might be pro and con “don’t ask/don’t tell,” but when it comes to health care, they don’t carry pro and con banners. So such voters, in favor of use my taxes for X, Y, and Z, not A, B, and C, they stay home.

  • Beverly

    *
    CORY,

    That adolescent humor certainly hasn’t hurt “Saturday Night Live”, Monty Python, Jon Stewart, Leno, Letterman, O’Brian, Fergusen . . . 

    Your comments made me realize that I was becoming way too intense, since I didn’t even notice the things you had pointed out, until you pointed them out! Your observations were completely unexpected, & made me laugh out loud. 

    *Sorry about the eggplant. No pickle or weiner available.

  • Flowen

    Now Peter I have to get on YOU.

    He hasn’t lost 2012 yet!

    I agree, the trajectory doesn’t look good ATTM, but he hasn’t lost it yet!

  • JS from NY

    Peter,
    President Obama has not lost his touch.
    http://obamaachievements.org/list

    The American people have lost a chunk of their democracy:
    http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101110/EDITORIAL/11100331

    His task will be to continue to achieve despite the pernicious influences of Corporate Money.

  • Sheila Newtown

    I think a big part of the point that hasn’t been talked about is the media. The media makes a lot of money from discord. They don’t actually ask real questions anymore like what do you mean by small government, should corporations be allowed to do whatever they want to whoever they want? Instead they are vague in their interviews,and bring together,purposely,guests that have their own agendas. NPR rarely tells anyone about where the “think tanks” get their money from or which corporations supported Freedomworks,etc. It’s not clarity the media is after because they make much more money keeping things confused. Republicans are better at theater and so the media gives them more leeway, making more money for the corporations who own them. There will be no common ground because its a better story not to have any.

  • Richard in Newton, MA

    I’ve listened to the argument throughout the years but I still cannot for the world of me figure out how the Repubs see a regressive tax structure as being fair play.

    Also, how does Rand Paul go about solving his state’s current $500 M medicaid shortfall in a state that ranks top five in obesity, diabetes and smoking percentiles while remaining true to his Libertarian outlook? Print more NordicTrack vouchers and refuse federal assistance?

  • Beverly

    PETER NELSON,

    Au contraire! It was ALL about policy.

    Have you forgotten that 76% of Americans were in favor of his health care reform bill?

    Just think about it, honesly. How could anyone, (even the governor of IOWA!!!), NOT have been defeated by that Republican barrage? Unlimited, undisclosed funds meant that we couldn’t escape the vitriolic lies which were bombarding us 24/7; they tormented us relentlessly, no matter where we went, or what we did. (Thank you, “Justice”  Thomas. Your wife must be very chuffed.)

    By the way, I wholeheartedly agree with you, about the NHS.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA
  • Rob (in NY)

    Brett (and others,
    I hope Speaker elect Boehner embraces a large portion of the draft report outline from this bipartisan deficit commission chaired by former Clinton Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles and Former Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming. This proposal represents a good compromise and can serve as a starting point for Congress and the President taking serious action to get our government’s finances under control. Naturally, certain critics from both the wacky right (some Tea Party Members) and lunatic left (Move On.Org and other liberals who resist any spending reductions as they believe it a natural born right to live off government programs financed by the tax dollars of others). I commend both Bowles and Simpson for this effort. Tom, I think this report outline is worth an hour of On Point’s time.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/deficit-reduction-panel-s-plan-would-seek-to-cut-social-security-medicare.html

  • Jeff burton

    Did we just spend an hour discussing the new republican house majority leader without having a single republican house member on the program?

  • http://cyberfumes.blogspot.com Dave Eger

    He is orange indeed. I can see both Gadsden yellow and Republican red in him. I don’t know, maybe I’m just warming up to his glow, but when he shed those tears, I was a little moved.

  • John Fountain

    While I am often fruistrated with “On Point” trying to be fair and respectful to “both sides,” even when the right-wing side is made up of lies, illogic and extremism, this reaches a new level of “centrist” hogwash when Anthony Brooks took over the discussion today. The guests were a Tea Party official, the political editor of a conservative-slanted newspaper that covers southern Ohio and northern Kentucky, one liberal U.S. representative, and a ‘centrist” Time Magazine writer. (LOL) This show is slanted so far to the modern “center” that it you happened to go to sleep 30 years ago and wake up today, you’d have to be excused for assuming it was an extreme-right-wing-nut showcase. Tom Ashbrook at least is savvy enough to occasionally ask a sharp-edged question of a lying rightwinger. American democracy has hit a new, lunatic low, and instead of talking about the despicable failure of politics in America, we accept that ‘the people” have spoken. Of course, NPR can’t go ‘left’ because that would mean alienating right-wing listeners and risking lower ratings and the loss of government money. Heaven forbid. Even at public radio, capitalism dims any chance at truth. Gotta keep popular, no matter would drivvel you put out! Of cousrse, the lefties in the audience have no where else on the radio dial to go, so WBUR and NPR doesn’t have to worry about alinating them! Sounds a lot like the White House…

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    The Distortions Wrought by the Corporatist State

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1193

    Yes, a libertarian critique of corporatism. Its the half of Libertarianism all you 2-party dogmatists like to ignore.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA
  • peter nelson

    Peter, I’m not going to draw conclusions about how conservative this country based on voting by 30 percent or whatever it is.

    By “this country” I’m referring to the voters. The voters are the ones who count. There’s no reason for any political leader to waste his time worrying about what the nonvoters want.

  • Dave

    While you’re at it TJ….

    Wall Street, Banks, and American Foreign Policy

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard66.html

  • peter nelson

    Au contraire! It was ALL about policy.

    Have you forgotten that 76% of Americans were in favor of his health care reform bill?

    If your statistic is true then that’s proof that elections have nothing to do with policy! (think about it).

  • peter nelson

    Did we just spend an hour discussing the new republican house majority leader without having a single republican house member on the program?

    They don’t talk to NPR.

  • peter nelson

    Yes, a libertarian critique of corporatism. Its the half of Libertarianism all you 2-party dogmatists like to ignore.

    That’s because it’s the impotent half. A libertarian might equally dislike welfare for the poor and big corporations. But if his small-government policies were implemented welfare would go away alright but there would be nothing to stop big corporations from continuing on their merry way.

    Anyway, not all critics of libertarianism are 2-party -ists. The US is the only major democracy with only 2 parties represented in their national legislature. At no point in our modern history have we been able to sustain more than 2 parties. Every other country in the world gives their voters more choices than that, and as a result, has much higher participation and turnout.

    I personally think any country of our size and diversity could easily have 5 or 6 parties. European nations a tenth our size can do it while chewing bubble gum with one hand tied behind their back.

    The problem is that Americans don’t get the concept of 3 or more parties. They think that having 2 parties is written into the Constitution or handed down by God on clay tablets. And don’t even talk about alternative voting systems to an American – that seems like calculus to someone who can’t even balance a checking account.

  • http://www.ceffect.com Jonathan Howard

    Congressman Anthony Weiner, my new hero! Our President was pathetic on 60 Minutes, practically whipping himself for getting mugged by the Republican Party. Congressman Weiner is having none of it, and I’m with him. I hope more Democrats show up at the rumble properly equipped with a sharp tongue like Cong. Weiner.

  • Beverly

    PETER NELSON,

    Everyone I know voted on policy, & we won’t anyone take away the changes we believed in.

    Please don’t tell us what we voted for, or why. You’re not clairvoyant; if you were, you would know what motivated us. You don’t.

  • JS from NY

    @TJ

    The point is that the Tea Party is a fraud.

    Your arguments and efforts empower the powerful.
    Soros doesn’t hide his support of liberal causes, the Republicans have no shame that they do the bidding of the Rich, and yet you are bankrolled by people who act in secret while benefitting from your efforts.

  • Will H

    John Fountain– I am with you.

    Somehow Americans have been convinced that Fox is “right wing” and just about everyone else “left wing”. The reality is that Fox is “right wing OPINION” promulgated by Rupert Murdoch, much of it based on falsehoods, where as an organization like NPR is simply NEWS. Unfortunately, the right has successfully whipped the entirety of media into shape, so to speak.

    This is really intimidation at work–much like how Fox successfully render the Democrats spineless by sending them hoodlums in the form of angry loud mouth retirees to verbally abuse them.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Beverly, maybe you meant me, not Peter. I was suggesting that those who vote may be “throwing the bums out” (for simpler reasons that may actually apply, like not yet having a job, “sending a message” about lowering taxes, for instance). Given the ad campaigns, it is hard to know how to vote even if one knows what one wants. If, for our taxes, we got actual reports from our senators and representatives about the doings and challenges in their respective offices, by e-mail, day-in/day-out, then come election time, more of us might feel well-enough-informed to actually vote without feeling manipulated by campaign rhetoric.
    I disagree with Peter that those who don’t vote don’t matter. Politicians have to figure out how to get those who oppose him or her to stay home, and how to get those likely to vote for him or her to come out and vote. I’d say that’s hugely a concern. Those who don’t vote matter a lot. Had they voted, the outcome could have been different. Therefore, they likely shaped the election. You might say no, the nonvoters are exactly reflected by the voters. Somehow that occurs. And I believe I have heard someone say on NPR or BBC that polls suggest that. I wonder. In close races, even a slight difference would matter a lot.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “nothing to stop big corporations from continuing on their merry way.”

    If we could agree that we need a regulatory framework within which a free market is at work, what exactly is the threat of “their merry way”?

    Appreciate the discussion.

  • peter nelson

    If we could agree that we need a regulatory framework within which a free market is at work, what exactly is the threat of “their merry way”?

    Libertarianism posits that the only legitimate function of government is “to prevent force and fraud”. Regulatory agencies are not consistent with libertarian philosophy.

    Back in my young and stupid days I was interested in libertarianism and attended LP meetings, voted for LP candidates and read their sacred texts (Austrian-school economics).

  • peter nelson

    Everyone I know voted on policy, & we won’t anyone take away the changes we believed in.

    Like you have a choice? Healthcare reform, consumer credit protection and a bunch of other things are going away as soon as the GOP takes office and you have no further say in the matter until 2012, by which time it will be done.

    Please don’t tell us what we voted for, or why. You’re not clairvoyant; if you were, you would know what motivated us. You don’t.

    I’m not clairvoyant but I know about American voters. If you actually voted on policy you’re in the minority. The average American doesn’t even know policy, nevermind vote on it. If most Americans ACTUALLY voted on policy do you think we’d have the policies we do?

  • Beverly

    FLOWEN,

    Thank you for that. I do feel better now, but no less apprehensive.

    As I stated hours ago, I know nothing about economies, so I’m grateful to anyone who does, & can put my mind at ease . . . somewhat.

  • Flowen

    Hey All!

    The Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson proposal is a breath of fresh air! Without knowing many details, they are proposing changes I never thought I would see!

    Although it will probably end in disappointment, it is the first shot across the bow of the Corporate/Government Pirates. Even if it goes no further, it is more progress than I have ever seen.

    The 3 provisions I have heard: raising SS retirement age to 68; eliminating mortgage interest deductions; and a 20% cut in defense spending. But apparently they gore everyone’s ox.

    Yeah, let’s have an hour on this.

    In other news, luxury retailers are having a banner year: $25,000 ladies handbags, and $800,000 watches have a 3 year waiting list!

    If they can afford that in this economy, they can afford a 90% marginal tax rate, and they deserve nothing less; nothing more perhaps than a French style revolution.

    Did you see the British kids tearing into the school over having to pay $14,000 (instead of $4700) for higher education annual tuition? Serious stuff. Like the French kids rioting over the loss of jobs from the effect of raising retirement age from 62 to 64.

    If American sheep had that kind of passion, the Corporations would have to re-oil their old machine guns to protect themselves from their victims.

    Instead, we type away alone in our virtual reality. At least it’s something. Keep it up!…we have the numbers, the rights to correct the wrongs, and the anger to get it done. Keep it focused!

    Let’s turn this Race to the Bottom to a Race to the Top; the Corporate/Government criminals only know how to get richer. They cannot see, or feel, the chaos coming. All they feel is the “pleasure” of an enlarged ego, all else requires Viagra. Many of them are truly sick; devoid of feelings, empathy, or compassion.

  • Beverly

    PETER NELSON,

    Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

    I’m speaking for myself, & the people I know, not for every voter in America. The ignorance of so many American voters is all too apparent.

    During the presidential campaign, whenever I heard Obama supporters being interviewed, they invariably said that they were voting for him because of health care reform. Many also went on to list other reasons, all having to do with his policies. So, I think we can safely surmise that the majority of those supporters were voting for his health care plan.

    Then there’s that 76% thing. I don’t trust polls, but, judging from what I witnessed myself, & what I’ve been told by friends, etc., it might have been an even higher percentage.

    Be that as it may, whether they knew about his other policies or not, Obama supporters all seemed to know about his health care policy. I didn’t hear any of them say that they would be voting for him because he has a nice smile. Neither did they say something vague, or bogus, (or both), like the responses heard from so many non-Democratic voters.

    I’m going by my own experience here, not pretending to know why everyone voted the way they did. Maybe you can try that too.

    There’s an item known as the veto pen. It was still working well when Dubya, used it.

  • Beverly

    FLOWEN,

    Very good! 

    I’m with you, & fired up.

  • Beverly

    ELLEN,

    No, I was actually responding to a posting from 10:37 a.m. (Or pretty close.)

    Sorry, I missed the one that you referred to. I’m not able to read many of them, & must have missed yours. I wouldn’t have made such a response to it in any case; yours was logical, & made sense.

    Time for me to stop typing; I’m correcting way too many errors, & there are probably more that I haven’t found yet.

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    I generally am against cloning (except for organ regeneration) but I would be wholly in favor of it if we could clone the likes of BERNIE SANDERS, he is, was and always will be my hero when it comes to government representatives. If we had more like him in both parties we would be doing a lot better.

    Ellen at 11:23 AM 11/10 “Why do people become extremely good builders of yachts? Because we support the rich, who have been buying them as long as we have voted them tax breaks.”

    We didn’t vote them tax breaks- the repub. controlled congress did that under bush. They were able to get the dems at the time to go along with it because it had a ten year life. The dems were to naive or stupid (either way it is bad) to do the math and see the train coming. In the 2010 elections, they were runover by that train. Why they couldn’t see that a vote in the house for extending the middle-class tax-cuts before the election would have resulted in a loss of very few seats is beyond me. It’s like they wanted to lose. It really makes me question whether Pelosi is as savvy as many say.

    peter nelson at 9:23 PM
    I am all for additional parties, but first we would have to re-vamp our election system to provide for runoffs if one candidate doesn’t achieve 50%+1. Without that, there would just be even worse manipulation of the electorate than there is now.

    There was talk earlier about poor voter turnout here. Australia just held its national elections a month ago or so and 95% of their voters turned out. 95%! Apparently voting there is mandatory. I don’t know what the stick is to get the people to vote, but it is obviously very effective. My sister and b-in-law just got back from there and one of the coolest thing things they brought back was a picture of a billboard for “The Sex Party”, I swear it was an actual legitimate party.

    Tom jeff. @ 11:12 AM 11/10 made a comment to me earlier suggesting that I attend a few T-party events in my area to learn more about them. I guess you don’t realize it, but I live in Lexington, KY where the female activist was knocked down and assaulted by several T-Party members including one of Rand Paul’s campaign workers who subsequently placed his foot on the woman’s shoulder while she lay on the ground and proceeded to step on her shoulder hard enough to cause her head to strike the pavement. This happened just moments before Rand and Jack Conways last debate which by the way was held at the local Educational TV station on UK’s campus. From my perspective it is not real pretty here in my state right now for a progressive. It would be dangerous for me to attend any T-party event because I am outspoken and am not known as a wilting flower when it comes to speaking up when I see or hear something wrong. I am against physical violence so I don’t think I would make it home without being thoroughly beaten up afterwards if not during the event itself. The T-partiers here are not a friendly bunch to compassionate types like myself. H-e-double tooth-picks, we just elected a gay mayor and I promise you a good many people here still believe that means happy! Don’t get me wrong, I love Kentucky and Lexington just as much as I ever have, but we have some real problems here with the uneducated/uninformed/unwilling among us.

    I was at a friends house about two months ago, a friend who is a T-partier was there, he and I were talking politics and I made the statement that I thought Obama was doing a fine job as President, but that the republicans were really mucking things up a bunch with their constant no’s. He totally disagreed, I proceeded to name some specifics as to why I thought the Repubs were hurting the country for their own gain. He responded with the ‘n-word’ towards Obama. I called him on it, said it was offensive and wrong, next thing I knew, he was on his feet towering over me, all red-faced saying you and I can never talk politics again. He was definitely ready to give me a certified ass-whooping. He stalked out and left because he said otherwise he would have to hurt me. He is not stupid, in fact he is very smart. He said he couldn’t help how he felt because it is all he has ever known. This kind of illness can not be cured in a few years, or decades. Here it will take generations and generations.

    Oh yeah, in other happy news, the gun stores here are doing a booming business, and have been ever since Obama got elected.

    T J at 11:24 PM 11/10 “What is their merry way” Oh I don’t know, why can’t I open an oil-change facility in my driveway? I mean, isn’t it all about “Highest and best use”? That is what is always relied on by the developers at our local Zoning Commission hearings.

    Rand Paul actually said the following when justifying why he didn’t see the need for the Mine Safety Administration (MSA)-”I don’t think we need Mining laws because the miners won’t work in a mine that is unsafe”. My head fell off. We are doomed.

    Flowen at 12:42 11/11
    “They have all the money,
    We have all the votes” me

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    Flowen at 12:42AM on 11/11
    “The Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson proposal is a breath of fresh air! Without knowing many details, they are proposing changes I never thought I would see!

    Although it will probably end in disappointment, it is the first shot across the bow of the Corporate/Government Pirates. Even if it goes no further, it is more progress than I have ever seen.

    The 3 provisions I have heard: raising SS retirement age to 68; eliminating mortgage interest deductions; and a 20% cut in defense spending. But apparently they gore everyone’s ox.”

    Sorry to disagree, raising the retirement age to 68 doesn’t sound to great to this 54 year old. Eliminating mortgage interest doesn’t sound to good to this partial homeowner. But now cutting defense, that is where the money really is.

    I am for an alteration to Social Security called “Means testing”. I am also in favor of Social Security taxes applying to all levels of income. I think it is not socialist to say the wealthy are going to have to suck it up on this one if we are to have a chance of saving this vitally important program and our society.

    I think it is long past time people learn what Social Security really is. In 1979 or 1980 I had an Insurance class while pursuing my BS where we designed a retirement plan from the ground-up for our university. While designing our plans we learned about Socail Security. I really came to understand and respect what it does. Social Security was originally created as part of “The Old Age and Survivors Disability Insurance Act” (OADSIA) for short. It is not, and was never intended to be a retirement plan. It was intended and designed to be a safety net for families and individuals throughout their lives and into retirement. It is at its heart an Insurance Plan. It operates as a disability policy during our lifetimes, it provides disability protection for our dependents as well, and it provides survivor benefits to our dependents in the event of our death. We are protected by it from the moment we are born. We have to work 40 quarters to be eligible for retirement benefits unless our spouse has qualified, then we can draw based on their benefits without ever having worked a day in our lives.
    It is not, I repeat, It is not a Retirement account. If we ever allow individually directed accounts we will destroy it and those among us who are barely getting by.

    I am a little concerned that the Debt commission will play right into the repubs hands. No one seems willing to tackle the real issues like the outright theft that was disguised as tax cuts under Bush. I say claw it all back. Every last penny. The wealthy control the writing of our laws and are wholly consumed with furthering and deepening their advantage. The bush tax cuts were a fraud.

    I think it was Bernie Sanders who stated tonight that 80% of the income gains over the last ten years went to the top 1% of income earners. If that isn’t grounds for a nation-wide revolt I don’t know what is. That means that the other 99% of Americans only received 20% of the income gains. That is theft aided by a very warped and broken system. It absolutely has to stop.

  • Flowen

    Hi Charles

    Still up huh? Me too; too much work to do, and I don’t know if I’m getting to bed tonite by the looks of it.

    I’m with you on Bernie; proud to say he represents me.

    Don’t mis-understand my 12:42 post. There’s no daylight between yours and my positions that I can tell.

    I’m not good with all provisions in the Commission’s report (those are the only 3 I know yet), including the SS. That is why I added “But apparently they gore everyone’s ox.” No matter how it is done, it will be so complex (as it has to unwind a ridiculously complicated current mess), that we will have to consider it as a whole, at each step of the way.

    What I find ground-breaking is the fact that they are professional pols talking about substance that has always been off-limits. I see it as a recognition (finally) that we are in desperate times.

    I too share your concerns that it may be pre-opted. But as stated, I am literally thrilled that it is just on the table.

    After starving so long, a little crumb is a feast!

  • a democrat

    I agree with the Congressman–the Republicans don’t
    really deserve to be rewarded again with power again
    when they refused to cooperate on a host of issues on Obama’agenda for the last two years ..

    Indeed, I feel Republican leaders like John Boehner
    and Mitch Mc Connell need to be reined in for their
    backrooom deals on behalf of special interest groups that sacked the US Tresury of almost one trillion dollars left over from the Clinton Camp , and added
    11 trillion dollars to America’s credit card during
    the last 8 yrs …

    e cannot afford them and I say let’s all take to the streets this time and demand that the justice dept rein in those thieves and charged with misappropriation of US tax payers funds on behalf of special interest….

    a democrat

  • Zeno

    I would guess that the question as to why conservatism is on the rise is purely rhetorical…but IMO the primary reason is it easier to believe something than to understand it. This is why conservatism binds so closely to religion. The idea of conservatives being against power over their personal lives is a lie.

    They cleave to control, they love control, and they love having someone telling them what to believe. This is why they get so angry when presented with empirical data. They MUST REJECT IT, because it is against their faith in God, the GOP, Hate, and their false history (the parables). Its all very easy and simple to be controlled by God, the Group, and The Wealthy.

    These binding forces are nothing new, but are very strong. It is always easier to bind with hate and ignorance than it is with compassion and reason.

    Reasonable people disagree because they are informed, the ignorant are in full agreement. Orwell knew all of this..Ignorance is strength!… and if I could get the uninformed masses of America to read one book it would be 1984.

  • Rob

    I believe this Simpson/Bowles report outline is an excellent opportunity for Boehner and Mitch McDonnell to build a center/right coalition that deals with our country’s fiscal problems in a serious manner. I find it ironic that the harshest criticism is coming from Nancy Pelosi, labor leaders, and others on the far left when the commission was created by a Democratic President (Obama). Republcicans, such as Paul Ryan, are commending the commission.

    Unfortunately, the only way a commission such as this one could ever work is if Congress agreed to an up or down vote the entire proposal (with no ammendments). This would be very similar to the social security commission of the early/mid 1980s and the base closing commissions of the late 1980s and early 1990s. The point is that nobody on either the left or right will like the entire proposal because it is compromise, but it is serious proposal that represents a true compromise where to borrow a phrase from Henry Kissinger “all parties are equally unhappy”

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    I would guess that the question as to why faith in central planning is on the rise is purely rhetorical…but IMO the primary reason is it easier to believe something than to understand it. This is why socialism binds so closely to utopianism. The idea of modern liberals being against power over their personal lives is a lie.

    They cleave to control, they love control, and they love having someone telling them what to believe. This is why they get so angry when presented with empirical data about the rise of tyrannical states. They MUST REJECT IT, because it is against their faith in Government, the Democratic Party, Equality of Ends, and their false history (Utopia). Its all very easy and simple to be controlled by Government, the Group, and The Elite Well-meaning Planners.

    These binding forces are nothing new, but are very strong. It is always easier to bind with hope and ignorance than it is with human nature and reason.

    Reasonable people disagree because they are informed, the ignorant are in full agreement. Orwell knew all of this..Ignorance is strength!… and if I could get the uninformed masses of America to read one book it would be The Road to Serfdom.

  • Ellen Dibble

    About Social Security. I am told that the Greatest Generation, those who fought World War II, in many cases “made out like bandits” with Social Security. Not all, apparently, because old people living in houses where they can’t afford the property taxes has led to exceptions being made, means-tested exceptions, by local ordinance. But those who find Social Security allowing them the kind of luxuries (travel, restaurant dining) we associate with non-government-supported lifestyles, those old people aren’t about to start a national movement to curtail their benefits. I don’t pry.
    For myself, I see Social Security would not support me, but if I continue to work (and paying INTO FICA an extra decade or so) and put off collecting Social Security as long as possible, the future seems secure, which is pretty utopian. If my own savings plummet when I’m say 80, as they did during the 2008/2009 fiasco, a means-tested Social Security system would help weather the lean years.
    Up till yesterday, it hasn’t looked like anyone was willing to start tinkering. I am inclined to think the whole package of Bowles’/Simpson’s proposed cuts has got to be passed during the lame-duck session. A piecemeal approach subjects it to all sorts of sausage-making, and the next congress seems can’t do math except for constituent vote tallies.
    Again, I feel out in the wilderness. What does Senator Scott Brown think about this? What about Senator Kerry? How about Congressman Neal? Why don’t constituents get daily updates? Are representatives afraid of being seen to flipflop? We might actually get informed about process, pressures, all that.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA
  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    Excerpt:
    ‘Trusting contemporary governments means dividing humanity into two classes: those who can be trusted with power to run other people’s lives, and those who cannot even be trusted to run their own lives. Modern Leviathans give some people the power to play God with other people’s lives, property, and domestic tranquility. Modern political thinking presumes that restraints are bad for the government but good for the people. The first duty of the citizen is to assume the best of the government, while government officials assume the worst of him.”

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    “The great political issue of our time is not liberalism versus conservatism, or capitalism versus socialism, but statism — the belief that government is inherently superior to the citizenry, that progress consists of extending the realm of compulsion, that vesting arbitrary power in government officials will make the people happy — eventually.”

    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1195

  • Zeno

    Plagiarism – Posted by T. Jefferson

    I’m not in complete disagreement, but it really didn’t fit did it. LOL!

    Like a libertarian at a stoplight.

  • http://notyet Charles A. Bowsher

    Flowen at 3:48 Thanks for the response. Thought I was out in the wilderness this morning when I wrote that.
    It is more a matter of degrees I think between us. I can see an adjustment of ages on Soc sec and a limit on mortgage int. and the 20% out of defense.

    Just woke up and heard the Rorshach comment. Have we all forgotten that he told us this isn’t about him, that it is about us? It is up to us to lead forward as it were.

  • T. Jefferson, Grave, USA

    Glad it gave you a chuckle at least Zeno….

    TJ

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