Seems pretty obvious to me that the GOP got us here. Is that even really disputable? So what’s the point of reelecting them?

BOSTON, MA

Here’s a riddle: Why do they pronounce Boehner “Bay-ner?”…because they don’t want you to call him the Boner he really is.

The U.S. political system is corrupt and needs serious reform. Both parties are one in the same since they work for the same industry campaign donors. America will continue to decline as long as citizens allow the corruption to continue.

How any incumbent politician got re-elected this last election cycle shows how uniformed and uninvolved Americans truly are.

That is so true! It’s the OLD white majority who want to run things. That’s gotta go!! The core of the Republican party. This Boehner guy is just another supporter of corrupt capitalism!

Seems pretty obvious to me that the GOP got us here. Is that even really disputable? So what’s the point of reelecting them?

The Democrats are just as in bed with corporate interests as the Republicans are. Go to opensecrets.org and look at who the top 5 donors are to Democratic leadership and key chairs. Furthermore, the Dems voted for the original banking deregulation; and they voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq. And furthermore in Obama’s first two years when they had strong majorities they failed to enact stringent banking reform (no surprise given who was financing Frank and Dodd), plus Obama appointed a Goldman Sachs guy to Treasury.

In practical terms the majority of people are not going to see any practical change in their lives no matter which party is in power in Washington. Both parties are to the right of center by the standards of all the other major democracies in the world.

I am hopeful that Boehner has learned enough over the years that he will be a strong behind the scenes Speaker. Republicans do not expect him to be the national spokesperson for the party (as this does
not fit his skillset), but he knows how to get things done in Congress. The key is to get the House to vote on major bills, including tax cut extentions, broader tax reform, spending reductions (ideally bringing non discretionary spending back to pre 2008 levels), and moving forward on entitlement reform, Obviously, tangible accomplishments will require some level of compromise with President Obama and the Senate.

It is great that the GOP now has at least a role in setting the Congressional agenda over the next two years. I am sorry Mr.President, Republicans are
“no longer sitting in the back of the bus” to borrow your divisive rhetoric.

Of course, maybe with a couple of high balls, a few cigarettes and a slap on the back or two, who knows? Obama smokes, too!!!

A point that fascinates me about Boehner is that he used to be a Democrat; and, when he began to make serious money in the plastics industry, he questioned whether he should be a Democrat after becoming rich…obviously his answer was, “NO!” maybe it was, “HELL, NO!” I always said that if I ever got rich I would become a Republican, too; why would I NOT want to protect the interests of my kind?!?

He’s a nasty, amoral, humorless, selfish, deceitful, uncooperative, manipulative, overgrown yobbo, with a very bad attitude.No wonder he’s so popular with the GOP.

At least his appointment will signal Big Business to start hiring again. They will have permission to stop holding back.

America can finally prosper, under Republican “leadership” (?), & the slimy, incredibly corrupt, unscrupulous Republicans will be hailed as heroes, for recussitating the Economy.

That was the dastardly plan all along; to make sure “Conservatives” were elected at all cost, so they can go about the merry business of, once again, duping the ignorant, gullible American public; they’re ridiculously easy to fool.


As a minority leader, I’m not sure what Boehner could have done except be a voicepiece for the interests financing him. I would be very embarrassed to serve like that, puppet magnifique, but I guess the right size check could make me do anything. So instead I’m embarrassed for the “interests” paying to get him to sound like such a pawn. If he’d do the same for me, I’d send him a box of chocolates and bright red underwear. Whatever it takes.
Moving on. What does Mitch McConnell demand of him? Could a Republican in the last couple years depart from Senator McConnell’s party line of “Just say no”?
Since November 2, I’ve heard Boehner sound like a People’s Person.
But if on the People’s behalf, tending to our national budget, he helps get entitlements brought in line with reality and if he helps get defense spending in line with reality (earmark by earmark alienating every congressperson, every district in the USA), if he does that, I’ll be praying for him, or drinking to his health, cheering.

The pickle that Boehner and the GOP are in is in the math: government workers and government contractors still spend real money. They buy cars and go out to restaurants and shop at Target and Walmart and Home Depot. In economic terms they still contribute to net aggregate demand.

So any significant cuts will still subtract from the actual economy. And it’s not like that money will reappear somewhere else – to reduce the deficit you cannot give it back in taxes. You just have to make that spending disappear: *poof!*.

Now granted, that’s how the money appeared in the first place – *poof!* – deficit spending. But that magic money still bought actual cars and food and dry goods, etc. So if Boehner makes good on his promise to make big spending cuts the economy will shrink and more people will be out of work.

My guess is that he’s not stupid; he can do the math; and the result will be nothing but symbolic cuts and blame the other party for why they couldn’t do more.

Peter, if you look at the pie that is the national budget, it’s not government employees’ spending power that ought to be on the chopping block.
The budget can only be cut down to size by cutting the big waistline of National Government, which is this: Entitlements (Social Security/Medicare)
Defense spending (bases all over the world still)
Interest on the national debt (I believe –
I’m way out of my depth — payable to
Saudi and Chinese lenders? and of course
the general losses to us all from inflation
in costs and deflation in the
value of a dollar if we simply print the
money to ourselves; I defer to economists,
but not to any I currently know of).
The Size of Government is the Size of Entitlements, plus the Size of International Arrogance and Presumption (wars etc.), plus the size of poor planning (i.e., debt service).
Government jobs should ALWAYS be subject to re-evaluation. Not just at one point in time. Always.

Phallic references? I’m afraid I see our legislators as anything but powerful, if that’s the idea. If they make any mistakes, the money that pulls their strings will start cooking up attack ads. And we vote according to mud slung.

The budget can only be cut down to size by cutting the big waistline of National Government, which is this: Entitlements (Social Security/Medicare)
Defense spending (bases all over the world still)

I said “government workers and government contractors”.

It doesn’t matter whether you work for EPA or Raytheon. Lay off a $50K worker and that’s $50K less money in your economy. Ditto with Social Security and Medicare. It still comes out of the economy and reduces aggregate demand – less goods and services being bought.

Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans show much enthusiasm for closing foreign bases that they’re an interesting question. At least some of that money isn’t going into the US economy but I’ll bet the majority still is: soldiers’ pay, contractors’ pay, equipment, etc. But I haven’t seen the numbers.

Of course we should eliminate wasteful spending but we have to be clear what results we’re expecting. Are we trying to create jobs or are we trying to eliminate wasteful spending? In the short term they’re at cross-purposes.

John Boehner helped turn the GOP into the party of no. I will be interested to see how he responds to a Democratic Senate saying no to bills from a Republican House. This is the same Representative who said “When you have the most historic election in over 60-70 years — you would think that — the other party would understand that the American People have clearly repudiated — the policies that they put forward the last two years,” and intended for that quote to apply to only 2010 and not 2008.

To this Democrat, John Boehner is target #1.

Isn’t interesting that a when a man shows a motion uses emotion, he is seen as human. If a woman show the same she is seen as week.

From Montpelier VT

If John Boehner were a woman, his reputation as a crier would political poison. It’s a sexist double standard that men can cry and weep at the drop of the dime. Remember when Hillary choked up during the campaign? It was a topic of conversation for weeks! Now I know that Boehner does it pretty much on cue, on at least a yearly basis? Yeah. We need more women in politics, if only to bring some rationality back.

The brain isn’t working this morning,
Take two.

Isn’t interesting that a when a man shows emotion, he is seen as human. If a woman shows the same, she is seen as weak.

I wish you would get software to allow editing comments and allow users to create an account to follow threads.
The comment section of this show is far more valuable to me than what hits the air.

“anti tax, anti regulation”

I guess Boehner hasn’t figured out yet why the world’s economies crashed.

Listen up bud: GREEDY people, GREEDY corporations, lax or no REGULATION of that greed.

- caveat emptor – except a LOT of people in the world got screwed by the few and had no way to “beware” of what they were “buying” because they weren’t buying anything.

I actually have close relatives in Boehner’s district, and have read Christmas letters on the subject. If my relations are any example of people north of Cincinnati, they work hard and do extremely well. They organize to benefit their communities, and can’t really understand how this cannot happen for any-body, for any community. You pull together and get it together, and OF COURSE things go fine. If not, you take your two cars, your two children, and move. Of course you get a bigger house, and you do better each step of the way.

Gail,

I take issue with your very general, meaningless statement. I am not “ignorant” for voting for an incumbent, in this case, my rep. John Spratt who has done LOTS for his state. Others who voted against could not even give a reason why they liked his opponent & actually claimed to have liked Spratt anyway. Outside money stated he had “San Francisco Values.” This has everything to do with the warping of identity and people voting for who they identify with, NOT going with any sort of facts.

peter what do you mean? They want power they don’t care about the real issues. If they did we would have had single payer health care system by now.

What part of this don’t you understand? That the politicians are tied to the special interest and do their bidding? As the Senate part of the health care bill is a perfect example, or what? What don’t you get about my comment?

Or is it that you just try to find things in peoples comments to knock down, which is your deal mostly. You make good points and then you go on the attack. It’s kind of old.

republicans can reduce the debt by 147 million a year

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/11/09/131192182/cotton

147 million(per year) borrowed from china to pay Brazilian cotton farmers. The farmers are getting paid and still selling there goods against the U.S. no other country has such a deal.

John Spratt who has done LOTS for his state.

In US politics “doing a LOT for your state” (or district) is usually synonymous with bringing in pork or fighting to keep the pork there, for example resisting efforts to close military bases in the district or to cancel federal contracts representing local jobs.

Some other democracies have at least some “at large” legislators to counter this, but our constitution has no such provisions and Americans probably couldn’t handle the concept anyway.

Again, On Point’s Beltway guests obfuscate the nature of the Tea Party, and thus Speaker Boehner’s potential interactions with them.

Of course the original Tea Partier, Ron Paul, speaks incessantly about the need to cut the military, and reduce our interventionist policies that help bankrupt us.

If the goal is to cut spending significantly, Ron Paul types (his son Rand on the record to cut military too) then the Tea Party will help, not hinder Boehner achieve those goals.

On the contract from America, are citizens the best engineers of our legislation?
Think of the sports stadium, what would fans vote for in size of a seat? I can see a stadium of lazy-boy rockers. Sounds great, until you figure that 75,000 lazy-boys put you about half a mile form the field. We want services but don’t expect to pay for them. We are hypocrites, we need leadership that point that out.

What don’t you get about my comment?

My point is that they should want power, they should want to keep their job!

That’s how our system is designed to work. But people who complain about it say it like it’s a bad thing.

The desire to keep their job is how we motivate them. If the American people really wanted healthcare reform then those who didn’t deliver it would LOSE their jobs and power and those who did deliver it would keep their jobs and power.

Actions speak louder than words. Voting is an act, what you tell a pollster is a word. The American people have made it clear by their action that healthcare, banking reform, etc, are not high priorities with them

The issues relating to the current job crisis is 2 fold.
In John Boehner’s case, I am baffled as to the logic of his voting against bills that would penalize companies who outsource jobs. You see clear evidence of this when computer giant Dell announces that they are investing $100 million in China over the next 10 years while clearing ignoring the crisis at home. We wont even talk about the Bush cut.
This brings me to my second point. As it sits, the only jobs that the government can bring to the people are the government ones. As long as Americans continue to spend money at companies like Walmart or buy their high end toys ie:Apple, the job market will never improve. Simple mathematics can show this. If ever American family (77 million) were to buy a computer that was “American made” at $1000.00, allowing for employee costs of 80%, material costs at 10% and 10% profit margins, you could create over 1.2 million jobs @$50/yr. Now allow for $10,000 in spending per family on American products..12.5 million jobs!! The government cannot do that for you. YOU CAN

More like “Contract on America”
We are Doomed and “Bonehead” will lead the charge.

“Republicans: Hypocrites?
or
Schizophrenic Hypocrites?”
Charles A. Bowsher

My father was a lifelong Republican, and a Buckeye, but he is rolling over in his grave with this current crop of “Republicans”. My father had a heart, these bozo’s are selfish and heartless.

I am sick and tired of hearing about keeping the American Dream alive for the next generation from the very people who seem to do everything possible to destroy it. More important would be for us to conserve our resources, protect our environment, and educate our populace if we intend to “Keep the American Dream Alive”. As far as I can see, their “dream” is a nightmare.

Can someone please give me a little hope?

This election was not about “core values” it was about “CORPORATE MONEY”.

“banking reform, etc, are not high priorities with them”

No banking reform?

I think the only thing everyone but the establishment Democrats and Republicans with their Wall St Banker string pullers agree on, is the need for accountability from the banking sector. From Progressives to Tea Partiers. I think they are a majority. Again conflating regular Tea Party folks with Neoconservative cronies is a silly, inaccurate, and unhelpful mistake for moving our country foward.

The more establishment people mix TPers with Neocons, the more you are handing the Neocon Republicans a very undeserved gift. If anything people need to continue to highlight the differences, and leave the established Republican party, standing naked in the snow.

“Where was the Tea-Party/Boehner when Bush lied us into a needless multi-trillion dollar war?”

Again! Why do you equate them? Its so lazy and uninformed.

All dogmatic Democrats who let their knee-jerk hatred of Tea Party rabble confuse them with regular Republicans, are just handing the Republicans a gift.

Reject the Welfare/Warfare State
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1191

Can anyone enlighten us as to what the Orange One has accomplished in his professional career?

Important legislation (aside from groundbreaking things like defunding ACORN, recognizing the accomplishments of Jack Kemp, etc.)?

Anything? Anyone?

Caller Jane: HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Oh yeah, the Republicans are now, all of a sudden, going to work with the Democrats? They didn’t do it when they were in the minority, they sure as he11 aren’t going to do it with a majority in the House.

Lady, if you voted out Democrats and voted in Republicans because they weren’t cooperating with each other, thinking they would NOW work together, you either drank the Republican Kool-aid or are seriously stupid.

Big government is not the problem. Big business is. We the people should do whatever we can to break up the “too big to fail” big businesses into smaller more manageable businesses. Right now big business runs the government because it is too big and too powerful. Both parties are being manipulated by big multinational businesses. The Tea Party has only one solution to every problem. That is the elimination of taxes. This is a simplistic and counterproductive goal.

It’s hilarious that on a show from NPR that the one liberal has to waste some of his precious time bringing up the fact that 40 amendments from the GOP were in Affordable Care Act. How many GOP votes did that end up getting? How reasonable does that nugget make the GOP sound?

A firebrand liberal is forced to start his argument, to this panel, by reciting facts about the current Congress. Too bad there isn’t a journalist around to have made these points sometime in the preceding 45 minutes.

“Why do you equate them?”
@TJ

You helped put this just say NO to jobs, healthcare, financial regulation idiot in power and you haven’t answered the question. Where were you when republicans were busting budgets since Nixon/Eisenhauer?

It is stupid and lazy to be pimped completely by corporations.

Perhaps the Democrats in the GOP controlled Congress can abstain on certain votes. When the issue of raising the debt ceiling comes up let the GOP rule and show folks the consequences. Don’t vote yes on raising the limit while they have a handful vote yes then use the issue against the Democrats and President.

Don’t help the GOP implement their agenda and get beat up by them too.

The commentator is right… there will be a collision.

… and President Obama will win, as HE is the one holding the VETO pen!

“It is stupid and lazy to be pimped completely by corporations.”

-JS

Where were you when Libertarians were trying to explain all this to a moronic culture in love with their Democrat/Republican dogamatic Welfare/Warfare puppet system?

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

Carlo Danese at 1048
Right on! Right on!

And now my comment
IF you think the Tea-party mirrors you I suggest you find Rand Pauls most recent blurb where he is asked about continuing the tax cuts for the wealthy. He is totally in favor of it and he actually said something along the lines

-that giving tax cuts to the wealthy benefits everyone because everyone either sells something to the wealthy or they work for the wealthy.-

Honest to God, he said that, we are doomed.
The tea party, the party without compassion or compunction.

@TJ
The use of the commons is part of our tradition as well. And when you libertarians seek to have it sullied by unchecked corporations with your utopian business freedom claptrap I like to look behind the few believers like you and always find some billionaire sticking a greenback in your collection plate.

Good attitude peter. I care, I think the 18 to 25 age group were charged up by Obama, and he used them, and now they are pretty much lost. That kind of thing wont work anymore. So you’re OK about turning the country over to the Tea party agenda?

“ig government is not the problem. Big business is. We the people should do whatever we can to break up the “too big to fail” big businesses into smaller more manageable businesses. Right now big business runs the government because it is too big and too powerful. Both parties are being manipulated by big multinational businesses. The Tea Party has only one solution to every problem. That is the elimination of taxes. This is a simplistic and counterproductive goal.”

Sounds simplistic and counterproductive because your soundbyte interpretation of it is wrong.

Many, many of the problems with “Big Business”, that all Americans rightly abhor, are precisely due to collusion with, and protection by, Big Government. All Americans, from Libertarians to Marxists, don’t want to be serfs to any Corporation. And they all have methods, via Legislative Frameworks, to reign in the excesses of the worst in human nature. Some just want to regulate as little as possible, to achieve those goals while preserving the possibility of free individuals to make as many choices as possible, while others think we would be better off having a group of “enlightened” planners in a central government tell us all how to live.

Neither has a desire for monopoly, murder, pollution etc.

To say Tea Partiers or Libertarians want NO Taxes or NO government or NO laws is simply stupid. If you honestly believe those things and hope that all your dogmatic friends do, we have no hope of finding common cause, doing the most rational things to achieve our goals for accountability, prosperity and liberty, moving this country forward.

So you’re OK about turning the country over to the Tea party agenda?

That’s like asking if I’m OK with the weather. It is what it is.

Whether the 18-30 y.o.’s have any say in their future is up to them. As is the nature of that say – left, right, or whatever. Voting is like dieting or good study habits – no one can make you do it. And as I’ve said here many times before, voting is the LEAST important part of the process. What really counts is how much time people devote to studying the issues and how they go about that.

You and I have no more control over those things than we do over the weather, so why sweat it?

Charles, if Rand Paul is still saying tax cuts to the wealthy “because everyone either sells something to the wealthy or they work for the wealthy,” then where has he been for the last 10 years??? To be sure, that is what it has come to: If you can’t serve the wealthy in some way, you are going to be living on a shoestring.
Why do jobless young women go into nursing? There is Big Money (insurance money) behind health care.
Why do people become extremely good builders of yachts? Because we support the rich, who have been buying them as long as we have voted them tax breaks.
If I wanted to write books for children, I would want to write those books to appeal to parents and grandparents with disposable income.
If I want to earn money as a waitress, I look for tips from the stylish restaurant, not the local greasy spoon.
What is the objection to this that Rand Paul misses?
Aren’t some of us (90 percent or so of us) interested in goods and services that are NOT geared for the wealthy? Oh, for that we buy goods from China and services from Indian phone banks.
It is our TRAGEDY that so much of our profit depends upon the wealthy. More of our GDP should be generated for and by the not-so-rich. Right now, there is a donut hole the size of a large pizza between what the wealthy want/buy at top cost and top profit versus what is subsidized but made “affordable” to all (food stamps, affordable housing, daycare if a child is in the custody of Social Services, health care if you are poor/disabled). There is a crack you can fall into. You can find the only good alternative is a product made in Mexico. The American economy offers quality, yes, but who can afford it?
This is what Republicans seem to think is the way to go.

You and I have no more control over those things than we do over the weather, so why sweat it?
True, but if something does not change it will effect us.
Health care is bankrupting the country, something has to be done besides brown nosing the special interest.

Now that is a voting block that needs to be organized….

What makes you think it’s a voting bloc, i.e., that it votes? Or cares?

I know uninsured people who just don’t care. I personally don’t get it but it’s true. Some of them are very religious, some of them just trust to luck, some of them may be whistling past the graveyard. The ones I know mostly live in the south (where I have relatives), so maybe it’s a cultural thing, and some of them are TP’ers.

But the bottom line is that liberals seem to think that everybody should think like they do and they’re baffled if they don’t.

“the tea party, the party without compassion or compunction.”

Charles, why not go out to some Tea Party events, meet some human beings, talk to them, and then come back and report to us.

I know a lot of Tea Partiers and I second the “without compassion” claim. I’ve talked to them and not one has a CLUE about healthcare reform. They simply do not care that people are literally dying because they cannot afford healthcare and have no access to insurance.

And they don’t care that over half of all personal bankruptcies are die to medical expenses – people who worked hard and saved all their lives and lose everything due to a sudden illness or injury.

The Tea Party’s basic philosophy is “I’ve got mine, Jack, @#$*! you.”

“Go try to produce all your own food and water; build, plow, and repair the roads you use; repair your own house and car; etc”

Now your getting somewhere! Put down your ipad and do something real!

If people who really care about our ecosystems and strip malls and fossil fuel use etc etc would actually walk the walk……..

Still waiting for the central government to tell you how to be truly green?

Now Peter, let’s not leave out the peasant mentality (as documented by Matt Taibbi). If the obsequiety they show to the rich is any indication, many of the folk who discovered the words “populism” and “TheConstitution(TM)” after President Obama won may consider themselves simply lesser human beings by the dint of not having vast wealth and power. How that power and wealth was aqcuired or inherited is not to be questioned.

New Millenial thought? Some folks want to drag us back to Middle Ages, where most people were serfs glad to be toiling on the master’s land, and required to scrape the dirt in his presence.

Still waiting for the central government to tell you how to be truly green?

No, but I’m still waiting for the central government to tell BP how to be green. And Union Carbide. And Dupont. And GE. And Massey Mining.

I’m waiting for government to be operated by people who actually believe in governance. The Democrats, with all their faults, have a bit of interest in that. The GOP has none.

Beverly, I don’t think what your alluding to will happen.
It’s not how economies work.
The will most likely take back the White House in 2012, but two years is a huge amount of time in politics.

I do think either way Obama might be a one term president.

For a politician to make pork (which represents such a small fraction of spending and is often the only way certain districts get needed projects completed in their area) his beef, sounds like a true populist who can change stripes depending on which way the political winds blow! (Okay, that was the use of three metaphors regularly heard in politics…how many points is that?)

T. Jefferson, you have redefined the American Dream for me. It never occurred to me before. Utopia for the peasants; with a big Red hammer and sickle flying over every McDwelling in ticky-tackyville.
It really never occurred to me. I think I see now what those who vote Republican are afraid of. I don’t think the corporate masters of the Democrats have exactly that in mind, though. Certainly no Democrats individuals I know of have that in mind.
So that is a new one. Step up, step up, what will you pay for this shiny new American dream-deal? Fifty percent of your income to Uncle Sam in taxes, and we will deliver identical drive-up living situations for everyone born in America. Just vote Democrat and you shall have it. No competition necessary.
???

I keep forgetting…

“How does it [the government] protect the individual?

If the individual is sick or injured and has no health insurance how is he protected? If the individual owns a house and sees its value erased because big banks did stupid, irresponsible things how is he protected? If the individual works for a corporation that moves his job offshore and dumps him into an economy with a 10% unemployment rate how is he protected? If an individual is a farmer trying to play by the rules but other farmers undercut him by hiring cheap, illegal workers how is he protected?

The government looks out for the interests of the wealthy individuals.” -peter nelson

This is why it mystifies me that working-class and poor neo-cons gravitate toward modern, populist conservatism. It is also at the heart of the “Bubba question.”

As I pointed this out many times that the senate is currently naturally undemocratic where the minority(often smaller percentage of voters) wield more power than the majority. And if the house was 100% republican or democrats and the senate consisted of at least 40 senator against them or less than 60 in the majority the will of the people voting in congress will be watered down/rejected.

So if the majority of Americans that voted 51+ % of say single payer the minority of 40% or less could stop such.

Beverly @ 11:31

I think you’re right about the Corporates opening up the job hiring spigot for political purposes (supporting Repubs), but I don’t believe it will work for them as well as you think. Don’t worry so much.

First, the Corporates will hire as you suggest, but they can’t go from 0 to 60 very fast because domestic demand is still flat on its back, and there isn’t a lot for all those new workers to do.

The economy is so weak for the bottom 67% of the population there can be no quick turn-around.

What I believe is coming is a bi-furcated economy, a Tale of Two Economies. The economy for the Haves is already soaring, with more in the pipeline; it will do little to nothing for the bottom 67%; and that is the coming opportunity for real change, one way or the other.

You are right though re: Corporate/Government (esp Repubs as they are waxing) manipulation. Even today, Lower unemployment claims, and talk about benefits for middle class homeowner mortgages is all over the media.

I have been predicting a Middle Class bribe coming. The above is falling into place, and I still expect cash bribes coming. They are so predictable; it is only exceeded by their corruption, lies, and criminality.

T. Jefferson, I think the difference between the Tea Party libertarians and the take-responsibility-for- yourself type Democrats like me is that the Tea Party is tied to corporations somehow. Don’t ask me how. Agreed, corporate America/federal tax policy makes it tough for the “small” approach. I call it the non-jobs approach, and I complain that a job is a kind of indenture that insulates the people/voters with jobs from a lot of the realities they need to be voting on. When Obama says he wants to promote jobs, I think he is promoting corporate interests. Small business may actually create most of the jobs (in America, versus those outsourced by bigger businesses), but there are reasons why the smaller a business is, the tougher the going. The tax code is written for those who already have it made, and to protect the jobs thusly created. The tax code is not designed to encourage upstart competitors.
So. I forget where I was going. Oh, why I wouldn’t join the Tea party, nor they join me, despite interests in common.
Actually, Americans surely have pretty much all interests in common; the question is how to get there. Or whether we can “get there” at all, that is, safely into the next century. I’m afraid we have to learn to look that far ahead.

“Tea People, please tend to your gardens and stop voting for Republicans against your interest.

They are poisoning the water.”

You got it! Now tell them the problem with Democrats…. and then lets work on a platform/solution that doesn’t need to infringe on peoples liberties, but instead protects your ability to pursue life liberty and happiness without being conscripted to interventionist wars to feed our Debt/War machine to perpetuate our Best Buy economy to perpetuate our crappy job serfdom Ellen mentions.

@Ellen Dibble

I see you are sipping that Republican flavored tea and repeating the lies re: Obama and small business.

What is your impression of Obama’s efforts on behalf of small business after having reading the FACTS in following link?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2010/09/10/fact-sheet-president-obama-has-signed-eight-small-business-tax-cuts-law-

“So. I forget where I was going. Oh, why I wouldn’t join the Tea party, nor they join me, despite interests in common.
Actually, Americans surely have pretty much all interests in common; the question is how to get there. Or whether we can “get there” at all, that is, safely into the next century. I’m afraid we have to learn to look that far ahead.”

A start would be for dogmatic lefties to stop barfing at the sound of the word “Liberty”.

Is it a thought crime to read “The Road to Serfdom”? To reexamine the questions of what exactly should our government do? Do we want a big centrally planned society/economy? Because I guarantee most people never thought about these things before the crash. Only the “crazies” of course. But with big power comes big corruption, and the individuals, without protection, will always suffer the most.

Now we are being asked by both parties, for more of the same. Big government and Big Corporations to save the day.

Many people are starting to ask, “maybe we don’t want to leave our fate in their hands anymore…..” and the first step is removing their power. Support your local co-op, and reject central planning.

If TPers and folks like Ellen can’t join forces to make a real run at reforming our system, this whole historical moment, with the Emperor naked before us for a brief moment, will have been wasted.

CORY,

Thanks for the levity. It’s great! Keep it up.
 OOPS!

Do you really think we can afford a cradle to grave Utopia, and at the same time maintain the motivation, drive and innovation to be productive and creative in our existential struggle against entropy

Do you consider the idea that a poor unemployed individual should receive medical care if they become seriously ill or injured utopian?

Libertarianism is like a car that runs on magic – sure it’s clean and quiet and gets fantastic mileage and never breaks down. Only problem is that they never seem to have one on the lot to show you.

No modern society is constructed on libertarian principles. The US has less regulation and government involvement than the Scandinavian nations or northern European ones like Germany and the Netherlands. Yet those countries have lower deficits (or they have actual surpluses), lower unemployment rates, better (usually positive) current account (trade) balances, lower rates of crime and social problems like teenage pregnancies and STD’s, plus they have universal health insurance, longer lifespans and lower infant mortality.

By comparison the US is relatively more libertarian and individualistic and scores worse on all those things.

The LP has been promoting their radical agenda for years. Why don’t they point us to some working contemporary examples? I’m an engineer; I like to see a working prototype before I agree to full production.

“Do you consider the idea that a poor unemployed individual should receive medical care if they become seriously ill or injured utopian?”

No I don’t. That sounds like a basic safety net. Single payer, competing providers. Eliminate the middleman.

I just worry that in our sound byte arguments, people are too quick to accept large, centrally controlled, well meaning solutions to things, as the only “compassionate” option. And conclude that Liberty and basic Safety nets are incompatible. I actually DO appreciate liberty as a real thing, that we need to be vigilant about, as protected individuals are the biggest obstacles to big government and big capital, both of which trend tyrannical, and we can’t turn our back to them. A.F. Hayek is a far cry from Ayn Rand.

http://reason.com/archives/2009/12/18/a-tale-of-two-libertarianisms

I’d like to see what any society, modern or ancient, actually meant by Libertarian. Do they mean getting away with murder? Claiming no principles except by choice? Do they mean people may not get together and plan? People may not engage in common? May not agree to protect business interests, contracts, standards of justice, arrange for the common defense, all those things set out by our founders? Could you even engage in marriage other than within the scope of a religious vow? No. We’d all be totally unaffiliated. No agreements at all. Buy what you want when you want it.
Utopia.

Ben @ 12:56

Second That! People don’t recognize that the Corporate/Government Status Quo is a much greater enemy than Al-Quiada and all terrorists put together.

I won’t get much agreement, and I have a step-son in Afghanistan (who will be done in less than 2 weeks, still holding my breath though), but the #1 reason we are in Afghanistan, IMHO:

to provide an environment for out Military Industrial Complex to develop, prove, refine, and polish UAV and drone technology.

We are the Empire in the Star Wars trilogy.

Ben summed it up. 12:56 PM

Might as well give Ron Paul and the People a try. What have we got to lose? Our party affiliation? Our world-police stature? Our debt payments to central bankers?

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1191

All that talk about Libertarians,yet the ones elected ran on the repubilcan ticket, the same republicans who are Libertarian poster is decrying.

If i recall there is an Libertarian party and much like the green party garners very few votes in all and the Libertarians that do get elected run as repubicans. Even the father or the Libertarian cause and often quoted was part of the reagan Administration (you know an republican)

Unless someone has facts to prove otherwise Libertarian cannot run on there own platform and is an unrealistic. But Haiti has many of the things Libertarians call for. no to little regulations,small government,no department of education, corporations have free reign, no government welfare,the rich pay low taxes, etc. free market anything goes, little government oversight and tons of corruption(which is weird cause you think under the Libertarian utopia there be non)

Yet the top 10 list of countries Libertarians (Dave posted an few weeks ago) have both values and ideas that are counter to the ones Libertarians push for and many social programs that they are against.

Flowen,

“It’s just more of the same: get into power and pass laws to enable criminal activity to be ordained “legal.”

The Tea Party leaders I see are worse liars than Repubs”

Remember the tea party is an non-parstian group that has republican,democrats and indenpendents and does not support either party of course this was BS yet onpoint and the MSM repeated it(even after poll after poll after poll) was showing they were to the far right of the republican party mostly consisting entirely of republicans, did not reflect the diversty of the U.S. and were older people who were on “Government SS” not to mention backed by many republican insiders.

T. Jefferson, Grave, USA, I see by your use of the British (and Canadian) style of quotation marks that you read British or Canadian publications, or did when you were a certain age. That, or you were in a British mindset when you quoted me. Double quotes inside single quotes is English; the reverse is American. So Sherlock Dibble here thinks Grave, USA is in Michigan. We’ll see. That would explain a lot.

“It’s just more of the same: get into power and pass laws to enable criminal activity to be ordained “legal.”

The Tea Party leaders I see are worse liars than Repubs.”
-FLowen

That would be a problem if true, and I would turn in my grave for that as I do for the status quo.

Who do you trust to carry my ideal message?

T. Jefferson

I don’t know. I hope something will emerge.

Posted by Dennis – Jamaica Plain

“I’m tired of every congress-person, on both sides of the aisle, pointing fingers at each other yet none provide realistic options for cutting the deficit. We need drastic measures similar to what the UK is doing.”

I’ve been saying just that for the better part of two years and I too am stuck by how dishonest the two predominent messages – “down-size our huge Gov to a state resembling Somalia as the course to fiscal responsibility” from the right or “cut defense and tax the filthy rich until they drop to correct our deficit” approach by the left – are so often repeated as partisan magic bullets. It seemed to me that we could not engage in adult discussions about fiscal responsibility without there having been concurrent discussions about specific spending reductions and increased tax revenue for the majority of Americans in the future once the economy recovered and joblessness rates declined.

Said this though, I hold our political leaders and pundits less accountable following what’s transpired of late at 30 Millbank, Westminister and to a much lesser extent, the streets of Paris. Had we told Americans who had lost their homes to foreclosure and were struggling to provide that they should expect to be a part of the solution and that tax increases for most able-bodied American should be expected in the future, it would have truly gotten ugly in the US. In many ways, bitching and whining, and voting to throw the bums out is the civilized thing to have done.

“I would love for you to vacation in Cancer Alley, or downhill from a hog lagoon. See how much your individuality competes against Cargill’s or Armour’s.

You need a dose of reality.”

You (we) need someone to enforce the law. Sounds like a Republican/Industry corruption problem not a Libertarian problem. A Libertarian system in which dumping hog waste into our rivers, which harms many individuals, is met with real accountability sounds like it would work just fine.

People rigging the law via government influence, people evading the law via lack of enforcement, and people above the law by raw corruption, is not a Libertarian problem. Libertarians hold forth the Rule of Law, more than anyone, as it is all we have to protect us from big power.

You’re not still conflating Liberty with Anarchy are you?

Or the World Wrestling Republican candidate for senator from Connecticut. Or Met Whitman, the online business magnate running for Republican governor in California. Or Carly Fiorina, ex-executive of Hewlett Packard running against Barbara Boxer for senator in California. There are certainly women representing corporate America’s experience and hopes. I’m sure plenty of women would say Sarah Palin has plenty of cojones and that she is not the corporate type. I think Minnesota has women in Congress with cojones on both the Republican and Democrat side. When you get to Hillary Clinton, she’s been in government so long it’s hard to believe she has the remaining spine to stand up to the special interests. She’d have to be awfully diplomatic (two-faced) to have weathered the last decades and remain immune. There’s a word “jejune,” that I think might specify the degree of uninformed idealism that might be required to measure up to “cojones.” Well, Warren and Pelosi seem to have retained that over the years, so.

That’s why we need to get rid of the Democrats and Republicans! Start over!! Political system is indeed too money corrupted!! I don’t vote for either party! Throw all the bums out!!

Beverly,

I guess my “inner adolescent” got the best of me today!
I can’t believe those posts didn’t get deleted.

Leftfield, Wisconsin

I’m tired of every congress-person, on both sides of the aisle, pointing fingers at each other yet none provide realistic options for cutting the deficit. We need drastic measures similar to what the UK is doing

This shows how out of touch Americans are.

America is farther to the political right than any other major democracy. So, for example, David Cameron, the leader of the Conservative party would be regarded as a flaming “socialist” by the Tea Party! For example, in the election last May he promised to ring fence the NHS (i.e. guaranteed that none of his cuts would affect the NHS).

But we have nothing like the NHS in the US! And the Republicans have vowed that we never will.

To put all this another way, if we had what the UK will have AFTER they’re done doing their cuts we would be a more humane egalitarian, compassionate society than we are now!

Peter, I’m not going to draw conclusions about how conservative this country based on voting by 30 percent or whatever it is. In fact, I’m not convinced that a 60 percent turnout would give the true picture. Here’s why. If I want to make sure I am sending out directions to lower my taxes, that I’ve had enough of being exploited by the federal government (without bothering to analyze the situation), then I go vote. How complicated is that instruction? “Lower my taxes or get out.” If I want to send out the instruction, please transform the new health care bill ASAP into single payer, that’s a more complicated message. Not every district has a candidate who can carry that message. Candidates might be pro and con “don’t ask/don’t tell,” but when it comes to health care, they don’t carry pro and con banners. So such voters, in favor of use my taxes for X, Y, and Z, not A, B, and C, they stay home.

Now Peter I have to get on YOU.

He hasn’t lost 2012 yet!

I agree, the trajectory doesn’t look good ATTM, but he hasn’t lost it yet!

I think a big part of the point that hasn’t been talked about is the media. The media makes a lot of money from discord. They don’t actually ask real questions anymore like what do you mean by small government, should corporations be allowed to do whatever they want to whoever they want? Instead they are vague in their interviews,and bring together,purposely,guests that have their own agendas. NPR rarely tells anyone about where the “think tanks” get their money from or which corporations supported Freedomworks,etc. It’s not clarity the media is after because they make much more money keeping things confused. Republicans are better at theater and so the media gives them more leeway, making more money for the corporations who own them. There will be no common ground because its a better story not to have any.

PETER NELSON,

Au contraire! It was ALL about policy.

Have you forgotten that 76% of Americans were in favor of his health care reform bill?

Just think about it, honesly. How could anyone, (even the governor of IOWA!!!), NOT have been defeated by that Republican barrage? Unlimited, undisclosed funds meant that we couldn’t escape the vitriolic lies which were bombarding us 24/7; they tormented us relentlessly, no matter where we went, or what we did. (Thank you, “Justice”  Thomas. Your wife must be very chuffed.)

By the way, I wholeheartedly agree with you, about the NHS.


Brett (and others,
I hope Speaker elect Boehner embraces a large portion of the draft report outline from this bipartisan deficit commission chaired by former Clinton Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles and Former Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming. This proposal represents a good compromise and can serve as a starting point for Congress and the President taking serious action to get our government’s finances under control. Naturally, certain critics from both the wacky right (some Tea Party Members) and lunatic left (Move On.Org and other liberals who resist any spending reductions as they believe it a natural born right to live off government programs financed by the tax dollars of others). I commend both Bowles and Simpson for this effort. Tom, I think this report outline is worth an hour of On Point’s time.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/deficit-reduction-panel-s-plan-would-seek-to-cut-social-security-medicare.html

He is orange indeed. I can see both Gadsden yellow and Republican red in him. I don’t know, maybe I’m just warming up to his glow, but when he shed those tears, I was a little moved.

The Distortions Wrought by the Corporatist State

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1193

Yes, a libertarian critique of corporatism. Its the half of Libertarianism all you 2-party dogmatists like to ignore.

Peter, I’m not going to draw conclusions about how conservative this country based on voting by 30 percent or whatever it is.

By “this country” I’m referring to the voters. The voters are the ones who count. There’s no reason for any political leader to waste his time worrying about what the nonvoters want.

Au contraire! It was ALL about policy.

Have you forgotten that 76% of Americans were in favor of his health care reform bill?

If your statistic is true then that’s proof that elections have nothing to do with policy! (think about it).

Yes, a libertarian critique of corporatism. Its the half of Libertarianism all you 2-party dogmatists like to ignore.

That’s because it’s the impotent half. A libertarian might equally dislike welfare for the poor and big corporations. But if his small-government policies were implemented welfare would go away alright but there would be nothing to stop big corporations from continuing on their merry way.

Anyway, not all critics of libertarianism are 2-party -ists. The US is the only major democracy with only 2 parties represented in their national legislature. At no point in our modern history have we been able to sustain more than 2 parties. Every other country in the world gives their voters more choices than that, and as a result, has much higher participation and turnout.

I personally think any country of our size and diversity could easily have 5 or 6 parties. European nations a tenth our size can do it while chewing bubble gum with one hand tied behind their back.

The problem is that Americans don’t get the concept of 3 or more parties. They think that having 2 parties is written into the Constitution or handed down by God on clay tablets. And don’t even talk about alternative voting systems to an American – that seems like calculus to someone who can’t even balance a checking account.

PETER NELSON,

Everyone I know voted on policy, & we won’t anyone take away the changes we believed in.

Please don’t tell us what we voted for, or why. You’re not clairvoyant; if you were, you would know what motivated us. You don’t.

John Fountain– I am with you.

Somehow Americans have been convinced that Fox is “right wing” and just about everyone else “left wing”. The reality is that Fox is “right wing OPINION” promulgated by Rupert Murdoch, much of it based on falsehoods, where as an organization like NPR is simply NEWS. Unfortunately, the right has successfully whipped the entirety of media into shape, so to speak.

This is really intimidation at work–much like how Fox successfully render the Democrats spineless by sending them hoodlums in the form of angry loud mouth retirees to verbally abuse them.

“nothing to stop big corporations from continuing on their merry way.”

If we could agree that we need a regulatory framework within which a free market is at work, what exactly is the threat of “their merry way”?

Appreciate the discussion.

Everyone I know voted on policy, & we won’t anyone take away the changes we believed in.

Like you have a choice? Healthcare reform, consumer credit protection and a bunch of other things are going away as soon as the GOP takes office and you have no further say in the matter until 2012, by which time it will be done.

Please don’t tell us what we voted for, or why. You’re not clairvoyant; if you were, you would know what motivated us. You don’t.

I’m not clairvoyant but I know about American voters. If you actually voted on policy you’re in the minority. The average American doesn’t even know policy, nevermind vote on it. If most Americans ACTUALLY voted on policy do you think we’d have the policies we do?

Hey All!

The Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson proposal is a breath of fresh air! Without knowing many details, they are proposing changes I never thought I would see!

Although it will probably end in disappointment, it is the first shot across the bow of the Corporate/Government Pirates. Even if it goes no further, it is more progress than I have ever seen.

The 3 provisions I have heard: raising SS retirement age to 68; eliminating mortgage interest deductions; and a 20% cut in defense spending. But apparently they gore everyone’s ox.

Yeah, let’s have an hour on this.

In other news, luxury retailers are having a banner year: $25,000 ladies handbags, and $800,000 watches have a 3 year waiting list!

If they can afford that in this economy, they can afford a 90% marginal tax rate, and they deserve nothing less; nothing more perhaps than a French style revolution.

Did you see the British kids tearing into the school over having to pay $14,000 (instead of $4700) for higher education annual tuition? Serious stuff. Like the French kids rioting over the loss of jobs from the effect of raising retirement age from 62 to 64.

If American sheep had that kind of passion, the Corporations would have to re-oil their old machine guns to protect themselves from their victims.

Instead, we type away alone in our virtual reality. At least it’s something. Keep it up!…we have the numbers, the rights to correct the wrongs, and the anger to get it done. Keep it focused!

Let’s turn this Race to the Bottom to a Race to the Top; the Corporate/Government criminals only know how to get richer. They cannot see, or feel, the chaos coming. All they feel is the “pleasure” of an enlarged ego, all else requires Viagra. Many of them are truly sick; devoid of feelings, empathy, or compassion.

FLOWEN,

Very good! 

I’m with you, & fired up.

I generally am against cloning (except for organ regeneration) but I would be wholly in favor of it if we could clone the likes of BERNIE SANDERS, he is, was and always will be my hero when it comes to government representatives. If we had more like him in both parties we would be doing a lot better.

Ellen at 11:23 AM 11/10 “Why do people become extremely good builders of yachts? Because we support the rich, who have been buying them as long as we have voted them tax breaks.”

We didn’t vote them tax breaks- the repub. controlled congress did that under bush. They were able to get the dems at the time to go along with it because it had a ten year life. The dems were to naive or stupid (either way it is bad) to do the math and see the train coming. In the 2010 elections, they were runover by that train. Why they couldn’t see that a vote in the house for extending the middle-class tax-cuts before the election would have resulted in a loss of very few seats is beyond me. It’s like they wanted to lose. It really makes me question whether Pelosi is as savvy as many say.

peter nelson at 9:23 PM
I am all for additional parties, but first we would have to re-vamp our election system to provide for runoffs if one candidate doesn’t achieve 50%+1. Without that, there would just be even worse manipulation of the electorate than there is now.

There was talk earlier about poor voter turnout here. Australia just held its national elections a month ago or so and 95% of their voters turned out. 95%! Apparently voting there is mandatory. I don’t know what the stick is to get the people to vote, but it is obviously very effective. My sister and b-in-law just got back from there and one of the coolest thing things they brought back was a picture of a billboard for “The Sex Party”, I swear it was an actual legitimate party.

Tom jeff. @ 11:12 AM 11/10 made a comment to me earlier suggesting that I attend a few T-party events in my area to learn more about them. I guess you don’t realize it, but I live in Lexington, KY where the female activist was knocked down and assaulted by several T-Party members including one of Rand Paul’s campaign workers who subsequently placed his foot on the woman’s shoulder while she lay on the ground and proceeded to step on her shoulder hard enough to cause her head to strike the pavement. This happened just moments before Rand and Jack Conways last debate which by the way was held at the local Educational TV station on UK’s campus. From my perspective it is not real pretty here in my state right now for a progressive. It would be dangerous for me to attend any T-party event because I am outspoken and am not known as a wilting flower when it comes to speaking up when I see or hear something wrong. I am against physical violence so I don’t think I would make it home without being thoroughly beaten up afterwards if not during the event itself. The T-partiers here are not a friendly bunch to compassionate types like myself. H-e-double tooth-picks, we just elected a gay mayor and I promise you a good many people here still believe that means happy! Don’t get me wrong, I love Kentucky and Lexington just as much as I ever have, but we have some real problems here with the uneducated/uninformed/unwilling among us.

I was at a friends house about two months ago, a friend who is a T-partier was there, he and I were talking politics and I made the statement that I thought Obama was doing a fine job as President, but that the republicans were really mucking things up a bunch with their constant no’s. He totally disagreed, I proceeded to name some specifics as to why I thought the Repubs were hurting the country for their own gain. He responded with the ‘n-word’ towards Obama. I called him on it, said it was offensive and wrong, next thing I knew, he was on his feet towering over me, all red-faced saying you and I can never talk politics again. He was definitely ready to give me a certified ass-whooping. He stalked out and left because he said otherwise he would have to hurt me. He is not stupid, in fact he is very smart. He said he couldn’t help how he felt because it is all he has ever known. This kind of illness can not be cured in a few years, or decades. Here it will take generations and generations.

Oh yeah, in other happy news, the gun stores here are doing a booming business, and have been ever since Obama got elected.

T J at 11:24 PM 11/10 “What is their merry way” Oh I don’t know, why can’t I open an oil-change facility in my driveway? I mean, isn’t it all about “Highest and best use”? That is what is always relied on by the developers at our local Zoning Commission hearings.

Rand Paul actually said the following when justifying why he didn’t see the need for the Mine Safety Administration (MSA)-”I don’t think we need Mining laws because the miners won’t work in a mine that is unsafe”. My head fell off. We are doomed.

Flowen at 12:42 11/11
“They have all the money,
We have all the votes” me

Hi Charles

Still up huh? Me too; too much work to do, and I don’t know if I’m getting to bed tonite by the looks of it.

I’m with you on Bernie; proud to say he represents me.

Don’t mis-understand my 12:42 post. There’s no daylight between yours and my positions that I can tell.

I’m not good with all provisions in the Commission’s report (those are the only 3 I know yet), including the SS. That is why I added “But apparently they gore everyone’s ox.” No matter how it is done, it will be so complex (as it has to unwind a ridiculously complicated current mess), that we will have to consider it as a whole, at each step of the way.

What I find ground-breaking is the fact that they are professional pols talking about substance that has always been off-limits. I see it as a recognition (finally) that we are in desperate times.

I too share your concerns that it may be pre-opted. But as stated, I am literally thrilled that it is just on the table.

After starving so long, a little crumb is a feast!

I would guess that the question as to why conservatism is on the rise is purely rhetorical…but IMO the primary reason is it easier to believe something than to understand it. This is why conservatism binds so closely to religion. The idea of conservatives being against power over their personal lives is a lie.

They cleave to control, they love control, and they love having someone telling them what to believe. This is why they get so angry when presented with empirical data. They MUST REJECT IT, because it is against their faith in God, the GOP, Hate, and their false history (the parables). Its all very easy and simple to be controlled by God, the Group, and The Wealthy.

These binding forces are nothing new, but are very strong. It is always easier to bind with hate and ignorance than it is with compassion and reason.

Reasonable people disagree because they are informed, the ignorant are in full agreement. Orwell knew all of this..Ignorance is strength!… and if I could get the uninformed masses of America to read one book it would be 1984.

I would guess that the question as to why faith in central planning is on the rise is purely rhetorical…but IMO the primary reason is it easier to believe something than to understand it. This is why socialism binds so closely to utopianism. The idea of modern liberals being against power over their personal lives is a lie.

They cleave to control, they love control, and they love having someone telling them what to believe. This is why they get so angry when presented with empirical data about the rise of tyrannical states. They MUST REJECT IT, because it is against their faith in Government, the Democratic Party, Equality of Ends, and their false history (Utopia). Its all very easy and simple to be controlled by Government, the Group, and The Elite Well-meaning Planners.

These binding forces are nothing new, but are very strong. It is always easier to bind with hope and ignorance than it is with human nature and reason.

Reasonable people disagree because they are informed, the ignorant are in full agreement. Orwell knew all of this..Ignorance is strength!… and if I could get the uninformed masses of America to read one book it would be The Road to Serfdom.

Statism, The Greatest Threat

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1195

“The great political issue of our time is not liberalism versus conservatism, or capitalism versus socialism, but statism — the belief that government is inherently superior to the citizenry, that progress consists of extending the realm of compulsion, that vesting arbitrary power in government officials will make the people happy — eventually.”

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1195

Flowen at 3:48 Thanks for the response. Thought I was out in the wilderness this morning when I wrote that.
It is more a matter of degrees I think between us. I can see an adjustment of ages on Soc sec and a limit on mortgage int. and the 20% out of defense.

Just woke up and heard the Rorshach comment. Have we all forgotten that he told us this isn’t about him, that it is about us? It is up to us to lead forward as it were.