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Exploring the India-U.S. Partnership

The President has wrapped up his big visit — we look at the real stakes in the U.S.-India relationship.

U.S. President Barack Obama hands out gifts to children as he visits Humayun's Tomb in New Delhi, India, Nov. 7, 2010. (AP)

The president danced in India – almost Bollywood-style. He hugged India’s prime minister Manmohan Singh, a lot. He paid homage to Mahatma Gandhi. 

But President Obama’s just-completed big trip to India was no sentimental journey. In the calculus of 21st century power, India is more than “emerging” as a big deal. It’s an economic powerhouse and a geopolitical counterweight to China. It’s also an Afghan near-neighbor and a democracy. 

A “natural ally” some call it. But it hasn’t always been. We look at America’s new “best friend forever,” maybe: India.

-Tom Ashbrook

Guests:

Jake Tapper joins us from Jakarta, Indonesia. He is senior White House correspondent for ABC News and is traveling with President Obama.

Nicholas Burns, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs from 2005 to 2008, during which time he led negotiations on the U.S.-India Civil Nuclear Agreement. He is former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, and he worked on the National Security Council under President Clinton. He is currently director of the Future of Diplomacy Project for the Programs on the Middle East and on India and South Asia, and a professor of diplomacy and international politics at Harvard’s Kennedy School. Read the new report he co-authored for the Center for a New American Security, “Natural Allies” (PDF).

Sumit Ganguly joins us from New Delhi, India. He is a professor of political science and holds the chair in Indian Cultures and Civilizations at Indiana University in Bloomington. He is currently in India as a Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses in New Delhi. He is the co-author, most recently, of “Fearful Symmetry: India and Pakistan Under the Shadow of Nuclear Weapons”  and “More Than Words: U.S.-India Strategic Cooperation Into the Twenty-First Century.”

Eswar Prasad, professor of trade policy at Cornell University, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and former head of the International Monetary Fund’s China Division.

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  • Watching the outsourcing of the american dream

    I heard all the babble that we are not outsourcing jobs to India and actually stand to gain from such and frankly it’s an helping of B.S.

    My company who happen to get bailed out, took that money and used it for technology and sametime and the likes to outsource first 15 than 23 now 33% of it’s work to india. The reason why it’s not higher is they came up with an formula that states that the max(atm) if an natural/terrorist act happens they can still break above even after the fact. My friends work in the finanical industry as well and I’m told there numembers of outsourced jobs are similar.

    When my company took the bail-out money it laid off 5000 people after getting money from the government not to, than another 1000 after the first phase was complete, paid out bonus(huss huss manor of course) and right before the restrictions came, paid it back.

    We had an big meeting with one of our Regional Big Wigs and hr stated we did well pass the stress test and it was back to business.

    While my company stopped outsourcing for the moment it started hiring people from India and China to work for them in the U.S. not P.H.D level or Master level jobs but jobs one would get right out of collage and thanks to the government two of our rivals are weaken and in the last 2years have grown even larger and increase out market share 13% the first year and going.

    Globalization i seen is an race to the bottom and at first sounded great for all, but reality is it’s an promotion of slave labor and once that low standard is meet it will find an group even lower to extort and use. It’s also one of the fastest way to waste resources

  • Beverly

    Looking forward to another great show today. Can hardly wait.

  • Nick

    I wouldn’t mind outsourcing to India if

    1. Their work was a good as it was done in the US. Tried getting your computer fixed or bill straightened out over the phone with someone thousands of miles away???

    2. If the Indians bought American products. We sell all over the world but India is the hardest country to sell to. WHY IS THAT ?

    Nick
    Massachusetts

  • FLowen

    Thanks Watching…

    Americans still can’t believe how criminal the relationship is between Government and Big Business.

    When Big Business talks, it lies,

    and, a riddle:

    how do you know when a Republican politician is lying?…when his lips are moving!

    Thanks for your insider’s insight!

  • cory

    It is interesting that trade barriers and isolationism have no champion in our country. Pat Buchannen was the last national level advocate I can recall.

    We just sail along with the assumption that these ideas have no value in today’s world. Globalization helps lots of people. Poor workers in the developing world and wealthy investors in the developed world certainly benefit. The big loser in globalization is the average everyday American worker who can no longer find a job paying more than $10/hr. The same worker who is being told he is unlikely to be able to retire, collect social security, have decent health care, or send their kids to college. The majority of Americans are on the road to economic equalization with Chinese and Indian workers. The worst part of this is we still have a long way to go down into poverty before we reach this equalization.

    What to do? I don’t know… Neither major party even attempts to advocate against globalization anymore. It is so sad to say that we must simply brace ourselves for this brave new world.

    -cory in Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    I’ve always thought India was a natural ally of ours: the largest democracy on earth with a stable government.

    I think the Indian student’s question was right on the money: Why doesn’t the US consider Pakistan a terrorist state? They have nuclear weapons, terrorists, a weak government, and no doubt the guys responsible for 9/11 are hiding in that country. We go soft on them and go hard on Iran.

    Before the Israel bashers go nuts, I don’t think this is just a matter of middle east triangulation, it’s also a double standard.

    Warren, Connecticut

  • cory

    I’ve heard India referred to as “the arrogant Democracy”. Where does this come from?

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Tatiana

    Perhaps less American jobs would be outsourced if American workers learned to spell, read, and do math at least as well as other workers from around the world… Quite frankly, it’s shocking to see how poorly that first comment was written.

    Many people whose first language is NOT English take the time to learn grammar and vocabulary so they can speak, read, and write as well as native English speakers. Get over the accent and you’ll figure that out pretty quickly.

    How are Americans supposed to keep earning high salaries, have the best jobs in the world, and live the “American Dream” if most of them cannot even find India on a map?

    Tatiana from São Paulo, Brazil

  • cory

    Tatiana,

    Your point about education is taken, your aggravating arrogance and condescension are not. I’m college educated and make $11/hr with no benefits.

    Also… I am the last person you’d call a patriot, but I’m not interested in having my country insulted by a smarmy Brazillian (and yes, I can find Brazil on a map). Your country is on the rise, but I’m not sure you are ready to climb up on a soapbox just yet.

    Leave insulting America and it’s people to those who do it best… other Americans!

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    According to Tom Friedman (“The World is Flat,” New York Times, who has just come back from a month in India, following a month in China, and showed up on the Charlie Rose show last night
    http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/439,
    the way to keep up when globalization and outsourcing mean our competitors’ laborers earn a tenth of what an American does is to be TEN TIMES AS EFFICIENT. Technology, supposedly, can let us export products with a tenth the hours of human labor, and thus parity in cost. (Can I believe my ears? My memory?)
    The show itself isn’t posted, and I’m wondering if I’m confusing him with someone else. I do remember clearly that when asked if he’s learned anything SINCE “The World is Flat,” he says, yes, he was wrong in that theory; the world is Much, Much Flatter than it was a few years ago. He says that cell phone users are being signed up in India at 50 million per — must be per year. And he says that the sorts of evolution in social and economic cooperation and production are vastly speeded up since communications have the boost of the internet and so on. He described the jumps in progresson what sounded to me like a more micro level, community by community, sorting out…
    It sounds like the Indians will flourish before one bats an eye. Before Friedman’s next visit.

  • FLowen

    C’mon Cory, lighten up!

    Tatiana makes an excellent point which is simply true. You see it everywhere.

    In terms of arrogance, we Americans are possibly the best in the world.

    “If you want to make someone angry, lie; if you want to make someone furious, tell the truth.”

    F

  • cory

    Tatiana,

    By the way, I’m sure the average American is better educated than your average Chinese peasant who works for 1-2 dollars an hour schlepping toxic paint onto toys for children. The difference between the two is the Chinese peasant is probably excited to make that 1-2 dollar an hour wage, whereas the American finds it hard to make a go of it with that income.

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Flowen

    Ellen

    Yes, Friedman said we have to be 10-20x more productive as Indians, etc in the world market.

    I don’t know if it was 15 Million or 50 Million new cell phone subscribers, but it was a monthly(!) sales figure. Big country.

  • Les from Vermont

    Someone said the the guys responible for 9/11 are hiding in Pakistan. I think you mean Rupert Merdock’s house.

  • Les from Vermont

    That’s where the master minds of 9/11 are hiding, Rupert Merdock’s, if that wasn’t clear.

  • Ellen Dibble

    It seems to me Chinese people are born into a system that is not threatened to have them well-educated. It seems to me that central-authority China has seen the advantage to concerted and determined efforts in education. So I’m thinking young Chinese are not thrown into a struggling high school; they land in an institution with central government backing. Whereas in the United States, young people cling to such safety net as we have, seeing the road to the top as association with the toughest gang, with stops at jail and prison along the way. Even non-poor kids have a discouraging prospect, parents who feel dislocated and confused, teachers maybe ditto. The path ahead is anything but clear. Tom Friedman says for India, there is a chance their way ahead will stop being messy and turn into a straight shot for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. No hitch like a sudden realization about political realities such as might create a speed bump for China, but a sort of ferment, a big crowded “construction happening here” site.
    Brazil? I think it’s more like America, with plenty of people dislocated from all prospects of a good future, and very few clinging to a future belonging to the few. The FewTure.

  • Devere Braff

    @Cory
    Compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
    You don’t compare the average Chinese peasant to the average American. The average American is not a peasant.
    For a clearer idea, you compare an average Chinese peasant to the average American peasant (if you can find one).

  • cory

    I remember an old history lesson of the first Europeans to arrive in the court of the Chinese emperor. They came bringing goods from Europe with the intention of creating trade routes and commerce. The emperor accepted the goods as gifts or tribute. When pressed about commerce and trade, the emperor responded that China did not need these things and that they had everything they needed already.

    America should study this lesson from history. Globalization is poison. It is today the bane of working Americans and tomorrow the destruction of our civilization as we have come to know us.

    Austerity doesn’t need to mean starving the poor in favor of the rich. It can also mean national self reliance and the rejection of globalization and the misery it will bring.

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Ellen Dibble

    I get the impression India has had so much poverty, so long, that people are better at collaborating and innovating on a grassroots level, which is why, FLowen, Friedman might have been so impressed by what cell phones and internet seem to be doing for Indian development.
    Here there is a sense of hierarchy. You get the blessing of each level of government or organization, and there are many levels for squelching this or that. Organizations (Tea Party?) financed and encouraged by someone with a real position in the status quo will enable this or that.
    In India, plenty of people are trying to prevent their farms from being sold out from under their feet, and they had BETTER collaborate FAST or they will be bought out, or maybe lose their water supply to a dam. A Da-n Dam. I don’t think they’re waiting for the Koch brothers to fund them, or for Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh to give the go ahead. I could be wrong.

  • John

    Friedman’s book had a really boneheaded example of globalization creating more jobs in the US – companies that manage outsourcing.

  • jeffe

    How does Pakistan view this?

    What about the huge disparity between those who are wealthy and the poor in India.

    Inside Gate, India’s Good Life; Outside, the Servants’ Slums

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/world/asia/09gated.html

    Boston, MA

  • Peter

    Correction on one of your guests comments:

    CANADA is the largest trading partner of the US, by far! It is NOT China, nor India, nor any other country.

  • Hannah

    Obama has completely ignored India’s dilemma, the Kashmir problem in his quest of pleasing the Indians so that he could pry the Indian markets. In the past 20 yrs. there have been gross human rights violations in Kashmir, committed by the Indian security forces. 700,000 troops are stationed to hold onto Kashmir and 70,000 civilians have been killed in the past 20 yrs. with 115 killed in the last 4 months. The Kashmiri people were awaiting President Obama’s visit to India, so that he would raise concern over the Kashmir issue as it is a major flashpoint in this volatile region and also should it not be a moral issue for India being a democracy to stop atrocities on Kashmiri’s. But they are disappointed at President Obama completely ignoring the issue. Do you think that this is the right move?

  • Flowen

    I like Friedman, especially his take on “green” energy.

    But he is a corporate cheerleader.

    Does the number of US jobs this trip to India is supposed to create remind you of the number of barrels spilling from the Gulf Oil spill: 5000 barrels/daily; first 1000?

    This US trip with 200 Corporate Masters and $600Billion of newly printed money, is all about American Financial Psychopaths using money to draw out Indian Financial Psychopaths so they can join them in exploiting the Indian population as they have raped, pillaged, and plundered the American population.

  • cory

    Devere Braff,

    My impression is that the average Chinese is a peasant. Perhaps the problem is the definition of “peasant”. Here’s mine- Dirt poor with little or no material assets, working for near to slave wages with little hope of socio-economic mobility.

    So I guess my intention was to camparte the average American to the average Chinese.

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Indian working in US after completing a PhD in US

    US is the technology brain of the world. US suplies IT hardware and software all over the world. US is planning to setup a hotel in space. So, the jobs that are for the hands and legs and book keeping type will go to the people who can do it at a cheaper rate. US needs more people with PhDs as it prepares to invent galactic economy. US might be planning to get liquefied carbon from moons of Jupiter. So, the jobs that are outsourced to India China are for the people who can do that job at a cheaper rate. US population should rachetup and stop accepting that they can have a comfortable life by doing Pizza delivery. Even if jobs are not outsourced companies will startup offices in India.

  • Indian working in US after completing a PhD in US

    If India wants US to snap its ties with Pakistan and deal with Pakistan the way India wants US to deal with then India should send troops to Afghanistan to help US.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    I believe it was Arandati Roy (sp?) speaking for a long time with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now! about Maoists in India, and other ethnic groups that have their own armies in order to achieve their objectives. It sounds like these internal groups are treated as enemies. Whole cities get displaced while protecting their way of life from some government project, and end up fleeing bare-footed into — is it Thailand? In other words, India isn’t that great at getting into the future while respecting everyone’s rights. (Why am I not surprised…)

  • Indian working in US after completing a PhD in US

    India should think twice when questioning why US does not deal fairly with Pakistan in the matter of terrorism. It was India which refused the seat of permanent membership in UNSC. The first prime minister of India Jawaharlal Nehru abandoned US, a democracy, and sided with USSR, a communist dictator, in 1947. So, India did not do what it should have done as a democracy and is suffering for it now.

  • cory

    Hannah,

    You are correct. The president and his delegation will not mention human rights issues to the Indians, much as we never mention them to China. This trip is about business, and business has no particular interest in human rights unless they can somehow enhance profitability.

    Besides, after a decade of unjust wars and nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan we don’t have alot of moral authority to spare.

    Leftfield, Wisconsin

  • Ellen DIbble

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/8/acclaimed_indian_author_arundhati_roy_on

    November 8th, several pieces to the conversation with Arundhati Roy.

  • Carlo Danese

    Nobody has mentioned the possibility of a closer relationship between China and Pakistan, economically and even militarily, as a balance to this relationship between the US and India relationship

  • Rex

    Tom, your pronunciation of ally is somewhat confusing.
    I am hearing “a-lie” instead of “al-i.”
    Thanks

  • Les from Vermont

    Rex, I think you’re confussing two words. A-lie is a verb, al-i is the noun.

  • John

    Not every American can be an innovator. What do we do with the rest of the population? The pizza delivery jobs aren’t being outsourced. There are jobs being exported that had been held by educated Americans who can compete on quality but not against the race to the bottom for pay.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If Americans will have to be ten times as efficient (or 45 times, if our average per capita is $45,000 and theirs is $1,000), and if we succeed by way of technology/computers to actually be ten times as efficient as Indian (or Chinese) labor, then it follows that we need ten times fewer people doing those jobs.
    That would be 90 percent unemployment.
    I can think ahead that far. Even if “everyone were an innovator” in America, we would have to not only be ten times as efficient but create ten times as many of those ten-times-as-efficient jobs in order to employ everyone.
    Assuming everyone could be educated to execute those jobs. Assuming the world could absorb the products/services thus served up.
    I am not more discouraged by that little bit of basic math than I am about the prospects for the human race due to our overheating of the planet as if we couldn’t see our own breath in front of our face. There is a song/waltz in Gounod’s Romeo and Juliet, Je veux vivre, dans ce reve” — Juliet sings like any teen with a brain still basically in a cocaine high merely by virtue of young love (new science apparently says so):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsHKWGHkH0M&feature=related
    “I want to live — in this dream.” The words are there to see. We are a teenage species and about to self-destruct. So we sing like mad. Check out Angela Gheorghiu, or Ruth Ann Swenson…

  • michael

    “How are Americans supposed to keep earning high salaries, have the best jobs in the world, and live the “American Dream” if most of them cannot even find India on a map?”

    Curious how someone from brazil could be so asinine, when and expect to be taken serious when making an response to an comment no one made. Do you have proof “most Americans cannot find India on a map” ?

    Maybe you could help your country on avoiding abusing it’s minorities and its human rights abuses, such as torture and the likes and protection for the ones doing such actions (http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/brazil/page.do?id=1011123) before you step up on your soap boats preaching

    “Torture and Prisons Conditions

    Detainees continued to be held in cruel, inhuman and degrading conditions. Torture was regularly used as a method of interrogation, punishment, control, humiliation and extortion.”

    Often times the ones criticizing others for spelling/grammar have very little insight as to anything else there talking about and use over-generalizations to try and make there points. If grammer and spelling was the only key to sucess than bush would have never been elected and there is countless people in american that relied on knowledge and know how to be an success and educations is not imply only grammar and spelling to our commenter’s and I bet i could find you tons of MBA and PH.D grads who could spell and write that make very little money and accomplish nothing i’m sure your story could prove such out.

    Michael from Quincy Ma.

  • michael

    “and know how to be an success and educations is not appliesto only grammar and spelling and is not the only key to sucess”

  • michael

    Another county having an veto power will undermine further U.N. resolutions and sooner or later be an start of an new world war. Since logically no country who could veto resolutions would allow itself to be sanction.

    The example for india would be Kasmir, the U.S., iraq and afganstian, the Chinese’s tibert, the Russians, Chechen .

    The United Nations Security Council creates an two-tier systems of laws for the 5 members and its allies.

    Quincy

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    Or if you see globalization in terms of galloping consumption of the planet by corporate greed, check out Anna Netrebko in another opera, singing about Violetta’s determination (in Parisian high society) to remain a prostitute, untethered to the responsibilities that attend commitments such as love and marriage. Well-paid, basking in admiration from all sides, with champagne in hand, she lets loose, sounding to me like Sarah Palin about to spend $100,000 on a new wardrobe, or whatever the sum was, at Republican expense.
    “Sempre libera,” (Let me remain) Always free, she sings. (Not semper fidelis, the Marine Corps theme, I think, which means always faithful.)
    The Tea Party and libertarians have coopted that same word “Libera,” free. Americans want to be free to plunder the world and the future, and it seems we are being plundered in return by younger economies, such as India.
    This is from La Traviata.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSPK7Ayuw3s&feature=related

  • peter nelson

    I wouldn’t mind outsourcing to India if

    1. Their work was a good as it was done in the US. Tried getting your computer fixed or bill straightened out over the phone with someone thousands of miles away???

    That has nothing to do with being in India – it’s because Dell and Verizon aren’t willing to shell out for decent talent. American tech support for the same companies is no better.

  • peter nelson

    The big loser in globalization is the average everyday American worker who can no longer find a job paying more than $10/hr.

    This is simply not true, as I’ve explained many times before. Think of all the millions of cell phones, flat-screen TV’s, iPods, PC’s and other products sold in the US. Do you have any idea what those would cost if they were made in the US or with US components (circuit boards, chips, resistors, capacitors, displays, etc)?

    I worked for 15 years for a major consumer electronics company that you’ve all heard of – the cost of almost all of the above products would probably triple if it was made in the US.

    So now think about all the US jobs at Apple, Motorola, Dell, Philips, Microsoft, etc, etc that depend on consumers being able to afford those things. Not to mention millions of jobs at software companies writing software for PC’s, apps for cellphones, designing websites, etc.

    I’m a sw developer and I’m writing 2 Android apps as we speak. There would be no market for these if a Droid Incredible or Droid 2 was priced in a range that large numbers of people couldn’t afford.

  • peter nelson

    Perhaps less American jobs would be outsourced if American workers learned to spell, read, and do math at least as well as other workers from around the world… Quite frankly, it’s shocking to see how poorly that first comment was written.

    I was going to say this, too, but I was afraid the moderator would delete my comment.

    I’d like to add that as a software developer I spend lots of times of software discussion forums where people post questions and answers.

    Most of these websites have a point-reward system to encourage people to post answers, so you get to see who they are. And a huge portion of the real experts and heroes are on these sites across the web are Indians and Chinese. I think Americans need to raise their game.

  • peter nelson

    Yes, Friedman said we have to be 10-20x more productive as Indians, etc in the world market.

    There’s no process improvement available to Americans that the Indians can’t also do. Any new software or technology that we can get our hands on they can also get their hands on.

    Infact the playing field is becoming even MORE level. For the last 20 years I’ve been mostly writing Windows software. The standard tools in use now are Microsft Visual Studio and Microsoft Expression Blend, which, together cost well over $1000 and are proprietary and licensed. But recently I’ve been switching over to writing Android software, which I think has a bigger future. The standard tool for that is Eclipse which is open source and FREE. So the poorest Indian student with a cheap laptop has access to the same tools I use.

  • cory

    Peter Nelson,

    Those high prices are coming anyway as cheap global labor continue to drive semi and unskilled American wages down. We have staved it off to a degree with our recently completed 30 year credit card binge, but it is coming.

    Refresh my memory as to why semi and unskilled American labor is not the biggest loser in the era of globalization. John who posted at 1059 hrs has it right. Not every American can be an innovator. I would add that not every American can be smart, motivated, handsome, or raised in a decent and supportive household. My basic question always returns to the question; How should the least among us live? What should the life of the dumbest, laziest, unluckiest and poorest American look like? Should he expect to have food, shelter, and medicine when he or she is sick? Do we want to tie these things to productivity? Unchecked globalization will eventually and inevitably take these decisions away from us.

    leftfield, Wisconsin

  • peter nelson

    Or if you see globalization in terms of galloping consumption of the planet by corporate greed

    Why do you blame corporate greed? People want to have a better life. India and China and other developing nations right now are seeing an explosion of sales of cars, air conditioners, new houses, TVs, cell-phones, roads, office buildings, etc. Every year millions more enter the middle class for the first time and have an opportunity to enjoy a better life than anything their peasant parents could have imagined. Who are we to begrudge them this?

  • michael

    “• “This is simply not true, as I’ve explained many times before. Think of all the millions of cell phones, flat-screen TV’s, iPods, PC’s and other products sold in the US. Do you have any idea what those would cost if they were made in the US or with US components (circuit boards, chips, resistors, capacitors, displays, etc)? ”

    Wasteful consumerism at it’s best, at the cost of U.S. wages falling, the fact that most of those products are obsolete by the time it gets to the market in place of an newer version of it. And as you so clearly pointed out benefits an small niche of our society i.e. programmers and will not in the long run help the vast society.

    But it’s nice to know they can buy an flat screen tv or apple phone that while there standard of living crumbles.

    Gotta distract the public

  • Flowen

    Hi Ellen @ 11:17

    I don’t quite follow your basic math: being 10-20x more productive than Indians doesn’t imply an employment ceiling…unless I’m mis-understanding.

    I totally agree, comparing the human race to an individual human lifetime, we are like teen-agers with a recent driver’s license. Like a teen-ager, we need to learn how to live to old age; or we crash Dad’s (God’s) car and go bye bye. At the moment, we are driving like a drunk teen-ager, drunk on cheap energy, and arrogant as we over-estimate our ability and global entitlements and deny our mortality.

  • michael

    “Why do you blame corporate greed? People want to have a better life. India and China and other developing nations right now are seeing an explosion of sales of cars, air conditioners, new houses, TVs, cell-phones, roads, office buildings, etc. Every year millions more enter the middle class for the first time and have an opportunity to enjoy a better life than anything their peasant parents could have imagined. Who are we to begrudge them this”

    Millions fell back into poverty because of greed, depletion of natural resources is rapidly speeding up and all those things that was once cheap will equal there true cost once resources become scarce.

    You missed the countless people (such as many africans) who due to globazation who have fallen back into poverty.

  • peter nelson

    Refresh my memory as to why semi and unskilled American labor is not the biggest loser in the era of globalization.

    The data show that more unskilled and low-skilled jobs are lost to automation and process improvement than to outsourcing. Modern warehouses these days are almost fully automated. Container shipping replaced stevedores. Factories become more automated every year. Last year MacDonald’s demo’ed a fully automated fast-food restaurant. (so far it’s just a prototype). In Q2 of 2009 the recession technically ended – and here’s the kicker – according to BLS US productivity rose that quarter by 7% annualized!!

    Recently I had FIOS installed at my house and I had a problem with it. I called Verizon tech support and had a 20 minute “conversation” with the automated robotic voice, which asked questions, made suggestions, tested the line when I tried things it suggested, and ultimately resolved the problem!! That’s the future of tech support!

    In a generation there will probably be no unskilled jobs anywhere on the planet. China is very worried about this and they’re rapidly trying to get OUT of that game with better education. The US should do the same.

  • peter nelson

    And as you so clearly pointed out benefits an small niche of our society i.e. programmers and will not in the long run help the vast society.

    Programmers, web designers, hardware engineers, mechanical engineers, usability testers, marketers, admins, cafeteria workers, HR staff, managers, office cleaners, bookkeepers, mailroom staff, etc. US high tech companies employ millions.

    Not to mention supporting businesses like printing companies, shipping companies, travel services, hotels, restaurants, convention centers, etc.

    Not to mention all the business made possible by cheap PC’s and cellphones – all the people who sell stuff using online businesses like EBay and Amazon; the sales staff in stores where these products get sold or who make or sell accessories for them, etc.

    Not to mention the local tax base provided by these companies with the office parks and campuses and the sales, income, and property taxes paid by their millions of employees.

    You have a better alternative?

  • michael

    “. The standard tools in use now are Microsft Visual Studio and Microsoft Expression Blend, which, together cost well over $1000 and are proprietary and licensed. But recently I’ve been switching over to writing Android software, which I think has a bigger future. The standard tool for that is Eclipse which is open source and FREE. So the poorest Indian student with a cheap laptop has access to the same tools I use.”

    Hench the race to the bottom and the downward trend that globalization promotes and will keep promoting and using cheap labor bring down the quality of life of other nations and once india and china hit that low standard, globalization will find an cheap source and there quality of life will suffer as well until were back to an world of peasents and the ultra rich and all those toys that distracted Millions on what was going on will cost to much or be unaffordable when the resources scare starts to kick in(of cours with help of speculators increasing the cost even more).

  • peter nelson

    You missed the countless people (such as many africans) who due to globazation who have fallen back into poverty.

    Africa is a basket case because of the corruption of their leaders and their own unwillingness to put aside tribal conflict. India, China, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan and other countries have spent centuries under the thumbs of occupiers from the west or from elsewhere in Asia, yet they have made bright futures for themselves. African can choose to do the same.

  • michael

    “Not to mention the local tax base provided by these companies with the office parks and campuses and the sales, income, and property taxes paid by their millions of employees.”

    Many of those companies pay no to very little income taxes, mind you using account tatics to move there money overseas

    “Programmers, web designers, hardware engineers, mechanical engineers, usability testers, marketers, admins, cafeteria workers, HR staff, managers, office cleaners, bookkeepers, mailroom staff, etc. US high tech companies employ millions. ”

    That again can be outsourced for an cheaper cost

  • michael

    “Africa is a basket case because of the corruption of their leaders and their own unwillingness to put aside tribal conflict. India, China, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan and other countries have spent centuries under the thumbs of occupiers from the west or from elsewhere in Asia, yet they have made bright futures for themselves. African can choose to do the same.”

    again the point is counter to what you stated about globalazation there other asian nations that have not recieve the results to put. Define bright? since many do not hold the same government and freedoms or human rights would polution be in that bright future?

    Taxs
    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/CompaniesWithTheFattestTaxBreaks.aspx

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    “Or if you see globalization in terms of galloping consumption of the planet by corporate greed.”
    It had occurred to me that Violetta’s consumption is a good metaphor (tuberculosis was called consumption, “consuming” one’s being, and I believe it would be referred to as “galloping” at times, which reminds me of our animal exuberance or uninhibited whatever Alan Greenspan denominated the American economy pre-crash).
    I don’t begrudge any economy expanding, but I think it is rash in the extreme to do so before we settle on green technologies, green infrastructure. Yesterday there was some scientific report out of London, I believe, to the effect it would take 100,000 years (I forget exactly) to heal (whatever that means) the planet from where it is now (I believe it was). I forget where I heard it. The fact it was not top headline news suggests a lot. That we don’t know how to deal with that. But you can be sure that the richest and best organized forces on the planet are those that in the last hundred years made their riches through petroleum and petroleum products, by causing a situation that has exactly as its “face,” representing its benefits, the snazzy auto, the plasma TV, the computer, the cell phone, plastics of all sorts. I don’t “begrudge” any newly developed nation glomming onto all this. But they would be repeating an ultimately destructive trajectory if we don’t stop and redirect. It is encouraging to hear India’s prime minister say that India needs infrastructure, and I’m thinking so do we all, and not the infrastructure of the last century.
    I think the United States, all by itself, could terminally pollute the planet, slowly cooking it to the point of no return. But if we get other economies to start doing the same thing, it’s no better than a crack cocaine dealer offering some around. “If you want it, here it is, come and get it, la-la-la, make your mind up fast.” Remember the song?

  • michael

    “Africa is a basket case because of the corruption of their leaders and their own unwillingness to put aside tribal conflict.”

    India and China does not? there many people in india and groups there can would disagree with your asertion, as well and in china

    China: Minority Exclusion, Marginalization and Rising Tensions

    “China’s increasing engagement with the international community in recent years has been accompanied by rapid domestic social and economic changes. Although the People’s Republic of China (PRC) is now an active participant in multilateral forums and processes of international human rights law, its policies continue to undermine human rights, especially that of vulnerable populations.

    This report documents the serious impediments to the fulfillment of China’s human rights obligations, in the areas of ethnic minority political participation, development, and preservation of cultural identity. Given the destabilizing levels of social unrest and protests, generated by inequality and human rights violations,”
    http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents/article?revision%5fid=48473&item%5fid=36055

  • peter nelson

    “Not to mention the local tax base provided by these companies with the office parks and campuses and the sales, income, and property taxes paid by their millions of employees.”

    Many of those companies pay no to very little income taxes, mind you using account tatics to move there money overseas

    But they pay property taxes, and their employees pay all kinds of taxes.

    The bottom line is that if people had to pay $1500 for an iPod or iPhone, Apple would have to shrink dramatically. As would all the other businesses I mentioned.

    We’re in a global economy and we have to make the best of it. What’s your alternative?

  • michael

    Is this the bright future your talking about?

  • michael

    “The bottom line is that if people had to pay $1500 for an iPod or iPhone, Apple would have to shrink dramatically. As would all the other businesses I mentioned.”

    who says they wouldn’t? who say Apple wouldn’t shrink dramatically in the future? the cost of energy,oil is artificial and will sooner or later come to like most likely dramatically shrinking apple.

  • peter nelson

    India and China does not? there many people in india and groups there can would disagree with your asertion, as well and in china

    All countries have internal conflicts – it’s a matter of scale. Corruption and tribal conflict have kept Africa from making any progress. China and India are progressing rapidly – both nations are vastly more united and forward-thinking than Africa.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    FLowen, the reason I think being 10 times more efficient in our labor would mean 10 times fewer jobs is that I don’t see the world needing even our labor force as it is now. If we do the same amount of work next year as this year, but ten times quicker, then 9 out of every 10 workers could be laid off.
    Better, someone would think of 9 additional jobs for them to do. But it’s not clear all 10 would be able to do the much more efficient methodology. Maybe one could. And what exactly does the world need from us tenfold? It seems to me if we innovated a ten-times faster way to make anything — concrete, lampshades, flatware — those jobs would be outsourced where cost of living (cost of paying for labor) is less.
    If there are ten times as many people, globally, looking for those new labor-intensively-created gizmos, let’s say water pumps, because people have been cured of malaria and HIV-AIDS, and the population of Africa, India, Malaysia is spiking, then the global warming and the global trash heap of unrecyclables will be all the more a problem. Lots of people earning $45,000 a year seems to me to suggest galloping consumption, a cancerous humankind. I wish it were not the case, but maybe that’s why this thread went silent at 10:45; nobody could see a good side to this American folly of Let Us All Eat and Drink Fossil Fuel Prosperity.

  • Indian working in US after completing a PhD in US

    Michael, Did you show such concern about globalization when IBM was the only company all over the world selling the mainframe computers? Probably not. You supported the globalization so that IBM, Coca Cola, Pepsi can sell their products in global market. The rules under which jobs are now out sourced were written during that time. At that time the world payed exorbitant price asked by IBM to have a computer or a Ford car. Now under the same rule population that were impoverished by the monopolistic domination of US companies are coming around getting taking their share by their hardwork and education you are crying foul. Yest it is right that unskilled US workers will end up getting the same wage as the unskilled workers in India and China. It is the main philosophy of capitalism make your own future by hardwork. If a person wants to be unskilled in a system where social welfare will pay for medicaid, public school then it is that person’s prerogative and no one has to think about rescuing that person. That’s what capitalism preaches.

    Peterson, thanks for raising such nice points. I also work in software development but never thought of the business of the support industry of a IT company.

  • michael

    “But they pay property taxes, and their employees pay all kinds of taxes. ”

    So? many manufacturing companies and there employees(actually much more than they do today) and with the benefits of globalazation.

    Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

  • Charlotte

    It’s called triangulating between India and China, and it’s as old as the hills in foreign policy circles. India is the other military power in that part of Asia (Tibet or Cashmir, which one will we pretend to ignore to get what in return this week?); has growing economic interests in the United States; also has been attacked recently by Islamic extremists headquartered in Pakistan (not to mention the birth pangs of Pakistan in the first place). Never mind Pakistan’s thieving, dysfunctional political class, feudal land barons that can’t be bothered helping their own poor, its rogue nuclear physicists, or its history of military juntas.

    Of course, India was playing this chess game of international politics for centuries before Machiavelli, Richelieu, Metternich, or Cheney came on the scene, and India will still be there when they are ALL gone. It should be interesting to watch how our American amateurs learn from the masters of this game. Having shot its economic wad and military credibility in Iraq and Afganistan, the American “team” is dealing from strategic and tactical weakness.

    And both India and China know it even as too many Americans remain in denial and far too preoccupied with political shellgames rather than knocking this country back into shape. Care a for little Sarah Palin playing Anita Bryant channeling Spiro Agnew sweeties?

  • michael

    “they actually paid much more than they do todayget far less.”

  • Flowen

    Hi Peter, @ 1:25

    Yes, there is an alternative. I can’t see all the nuts and bolts to get there, but there is clearly a way for the planet to support 9 Billion with the resources and technology we have. It is now controlled by psychopaths, so we have the American population who have been largely stripped of half or more of everything people spent their lives building up. Now the American consumer has little left, the psychopaths have moved on to other spoils. New name, same game.

    For starters, the fact that most families have to contribute two workers to make things work financially is half the exploitation; consumerism is the other half. The rich get richer with greater economic activity, that’s why it is as it is.

    We clearly are entering a period where there are not enough jobs to go around. We need to recognize that and develop a life-style and world view to suit. A lifestyle that could be much more relaxed, secure, and gratifying. Not this crazy rat-race that has morphed into rats trapped in a cage eating each other. It is only like this because we have allowed the celebrated free market, private enterprise criminals create our reality through the social engineering we call tax law.

    Cory: the lowliest should not only have their basics, they should also have opportunity to express themselves, which is not necessarily by making $50K/yr. We recognize success in only one metric; it is an illusion that serves the rich. Unfortunately, they have made it a reality: The American Dream is actually a nightmare. Best to wake up, those who can.

  • michael

    “they actually paid much more than they do today and get far less in return in regards to pay and quality of life.”

  • peter nelson

    “The bottom line is that if people had to pay $1500 for an iPod or iPhone, Apple would have to shrink dramatically. As would all the other businesses I mentioned.”

    who says they wouldn’t?

    You said only programmers benefited from cheap overseas manufacturing. I’m pointing out that cheap overseas manufacturing generates millions of US jobs in countless skill areas and businesses today in 2010.

    No one can predict what the future will bring – but I can predict this – it will belong to people who are adaptable to change, not afraid of the future, and not stuck pining away for some mythic past.

  • peter nelson

    Yes, there is an alternative. I can’t see all the nuts and bolts to get there, but there is clearly a way for the planet to support 9 Billion with the resources and technology we have.

    If it’s “clear”, as you say, then I wish you would paint a clearer picture.

    I know a lot of Chines and Indians and they don’t have the apocalyptic vision of the future that michael seems to.

    I agree that jobs are scarce – I was laid off 2 years ago and I’m still not working fulltime. And I expect that besides jobs, resources (energy clean water, etc) are becoming scarcer. In that environment I certainly don’t see life becoming “more relaxed and secure”. I see life becoming harder and requiring more skill and creativity to compete. And THAT’S gratifying!!

    I work longer hours now than when I was full-time employed. But I love what I do (Android programming) and being home all day I’ve learned to bake bread and I keep the house heated with a wood-burning stove using wood I cut from my own lot to save money. I also grow all sorts of food here. Surviving in a tough environment is more gratifying than a suburban lifestyle and a 9-5 job.

  • Flowen

    Peter

    Which “clearly” are you referring to?…”clearly a way for the planet to support 9 Billion” or “clearly are entering a period where there are not enough jobs to go around.”

    In any case, “clearly” states a problem, opportunity, and goal. As I say, I don’t see the nuts and bolts. I would love to work on the details of a “vision” if I didn’t think it would be a total waste of time.

    But I feel you make my case that the path we’re on is unsustainable, and I would further make a case there is plain insanity built in to what we collectively consider to be “normal modern contemporary life in the US.”

    There are no easy answers, obviously. I, like many, foresaw the shape of the energy, environmental, health, economic, diplomatic, etc etc issues take shape 35 years ago when I was a solar heating designer/contractor. Since then, since RayGun fired off the starting gun for the Race to the Bottom, the Corporate/Government criminals have made those problems 1000x worse. We’re in deep doo doo, and there is no way around it, but to come up with something.

    But with all the talk, where’s the beef?…where’s the vision?…where are we going? Nobody knows. The rich only know how to get richer; that’s where we’re going and until we stop, that’s what we have to live with.

    Eg Healthcare reform: if it had been done in ’94 when appendectomies cost $1200, it would have been a lot easier than now when they cost $40,000. There was a time we could have kicked the insurance criminals out, but now we need them…happenstance?…or plan? You know what I think.

    Virtual reality today is going through a similar development. We, especially the youth, are becoming so dependent on living in the virtual world (likewise by plan, not happenstance), it guarantees a fat monthly cash flow into the future for guess who? I already know plenty of twenty-somethings who pay $700 monthly to access their virtual reality: communications, media, and entertainment. It will clearly only become more expensive going forward. By design. Like drug dealers.

    Same story with energy, transportation, housing, finance, and on and on. It works real well for 1% of us; then another 20-35% have nothing to complain about (living in a golden cage is not bad as long as needs are met); I would guess that fully 2/3 of Americans are suffering from these issues we’re talking about. We do have the numbers!

  • Flowen

    BTW Peter

    They announced Microsoft’s new smart phone has only 3 apps, while Droid and Apple have 1000s. Can you get any of that business?

    F

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    The 1970 version of “irrational exuberance,” by Badfinger. “If you want it, here it is, come and get it.” Plenty of us could hear the taunt without having any clue what the song was in reference to.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk57K4OGrAg

    Another version, Charlotte, of the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz. Here, “my little pretty, you and your little dog, too.” I don’t know if you were channeling the witch, but that’s how your post came across.

    But I’m sure we can’t save the world from itself. We might say we can’t envision a better way ahead. The better way may materialize in spite of ourselves, but Murdoch et al, all the purveyors of Grand News, will likely miss it. I’m not sure we have lenses in our news receptors for picking up some of what matters most.
    If India’s poor (and nonpoor) can manage, in league with their leaders, to create sustainable infrastructure, sustainable farms, water, jobs, EVEN WITH whatever corporate power, money, and power-hungriness is bringing to them partly via our own president, well, I’d be happy to hear it!

  • michael

    Yest it is right that unskilled US workers will end up getting the same wage as the unskilled workers in India and China. It is the main philosophy of capitalism make your own future by hardwork”

    Lol, the commonly and often repeated lie, Public radio once did an interview with the creator of Maxium magazine and he made an point that to be successful one needs to fine hardworking people and take as much value from them and capitalize hard work on it, pay only what is needed and find an trusted person/s to enforce such cause if for one to be successful they need to not pay the workers what there are actually worth. This can be seen in countless instances in the U.S. and business communities

    Use them as much as you can to enrich yourself was his point and throw some scrapes down to a few.There are countless people who worked hard all there life in capitalist economies to come up short or receive nothing for such hard work or losing everything and there is countless people who did not work hard and became rich,lied, cheated there way to the top, be it connections, corruption, etc.

    “You supported the globalization so that IBM, Coca Cola, Pepsi can sell their products in global market.”

    By being born in the U.S. maybe, of course I was an child in the 90’s but I guess in a way if apathy counts when your a kid. I admit I was more concern with sports than and playing with my friends sorry about that :)

    “I know a lot of Chines and Indians and they don’t have the apocalyptic vision of the future that michael seems to”

    So? I bet many americans in the 90’s I would assume felt the same way during NAFTA. I know many as well who believe the U.S. is what it’s not.

    “I work longer hours now than when I was full-time employed. But I love what I do (Android programming) and being home all day I’ve learned to bake bread and I keep the house heated with a wood-burning stove using wood I cut from my own lot to save money. I also grow all sorts of food here. Surviving in a tough environment is more gratifying than a suburban lifestyle and a 9-5 job.”

    Not buying it, you made countless comments on here stating otherwise, esp ones involving the stock market and may I assume your nothing close to being in the same boat Cory is in or what most Americans would consider struggling? but do agree it far more satisfying to do a job you enjoy.

    Not sure your age but if I would have to take a guess it would be around late 50’s being an programmer above middle-class (even after working half-time). Don’t you think your struggle may differ from most hard working Americans who would dream to have such an suburban life and the time and ability to enjoy cutting wood??

  • Flowen

    “there is clearly a way for the planet to support 9 Billion with the resources and technology we have.”

    Sorry, clearly you were talking about that “clearly.”

    Off the top of my head, we American’s use 5x our share of global resources, enough to support 1.5 Billion. I’m guessing Europe, Japan and the rest of the “first” world consist of 2 Billion using 2.5x of their share of global resources, enough for another 5 Billion. I think that covers the existing global population.

    Forgetting the political, economic, and social realities to make that change, it is a fact that we currently have resources for all 6+ Billion, that 2.3 Billion of us currently enjoy. Without resource control by the rich, none of us can estimate the awesome and vast potential of resource availability. We have barely begun to tap the renewable energy source available; most of first world food production is maybe 10% efficient, and we have a lot of agriculture diverted to ethanol production as the government pays ethanol producers $.50/gallon of our tax money. If our motive is profit second, solve the problem first (instead of the ass-backward thing we do now), I have no doubt we can see miracles on a par with the Hubble telescope, the martian rovers, Airbus 380, and other ground based technological achievements we do not yet see. We need to free ourselves from the yoke of the rich, and who can say what will come?

    Building materials, wood, base metals are generally plentiful. And socially responsible harvesting and mining can create a lot of high end jobs. If we divert production for nuclear power, and military provisioning, we avoid a lot of wasteful expense, resource, and man-power for something more useful.

    Water may well be the difficult resource, especially since our profligate irresponsible use of fossil fuels has greatly exacerbated the problem, although rainfall has generally increased due to the same; just much more volatile and unpredictable. However, water, like energy is neither created nor destroyed, and given a true free market (as opposed to the “free-to-the-rich market” we currently have), I have great faith in people’s ability to solve these problems technically.

    The worst of our situation has to do with the fact that the government/corporate criminals have put us all in box, psychologically speaking, over the past 1-2 generations. You remember in 1989 when the Berlin Wall came down?…East and West Germans had been a unified population until 1959 when the iron curtain went up. When the wall came down only 30 years later, the East Germans had become like a neutered male cat: slow, un-ambitious, and not too sharp, having become used to the Communist way of life. West and East, the Germans had become two distinct populations they are still mending.

    I would argue that the corporate/government criminals have similarly both dumbed down the American population, and severely limited their view of reality, by selling them comforts and guarantees of The American Dream, and all they had to do was buy into it, which we all did.

    The one good thing that’s coming out of these tough times is that people are finally looking and seeing their reality, many for the first time. It is my hope they will respond as you have: deal with it, understand it, and try to change it. You have my respect.

  • peter nelson

    In any case, “clearly” states a problem, opportunity, and goal. As I say, I don’t see the nuts and bolts. I would love to work on the details of a “vision” if I didn’t think it would be a total waste of time.

    Without the nuts and bolts there’s no “clearly” about it. It’s like saying “clearly” we can live in a world without war and violence. After all, we don’t have to make war, but somehow our species always does. Understanding the “nuts and bolts” – the evolutionary psychology, the neuroscience, the coalitional male violence that’s been a hallmark of our species and most of our genus, and indeed, much of of the family Hominidae takes a lot of nuts and bolts science.

    So I don’t think there’s anything clear about the idea that we can live a non-stressful, low-competition existence as the world’s population grows. I think it’s much more likely that there will be much conflict and stress and those who do the best will need to be nimble, adaptable, and willing to work hard to do with less.

    I was always impressed with my mother and her generation who grew up during the Depression. She graduated from high school in 1932 at age 16 (I have her yearbook). Her whole life was a struggle but she was always cheerful and was always willing to try new things and take the bull by the horns and in the end she did alright. She was a “people person” who choked to death in a restaurant the night before she was supposed to fly 1300 miles to her 70th high school reunion to meet her 3 remaining classmates.

    She and her generation survived the Depression with cheerful, “can do” attitude and would be appalled at the anxieties being expressed about the future by Americans today.

  • peter nelson

    They announced Microsoft’s new smart phone has only 3 apps, while Droid and Apple have 1000s. Can you get any of that business?

    I’m not convinced they have a winner. Phone 7 lacks a huge number of basic, must-have features and nothing I’ve seen suggests to me that Microsoft “gets it”. They’ll probably sell a few to hardcore Microsofties but I don’t see it escaping the fate of Zune.

    I’m not optimistic about Microsoft over the next few years. Steve Ballmer just announced that he’s selling almost $2 billion dollars of his personal holding in the company – I think he sees the handwriting on the wall.

  • Flowen

    As a technical person you know that any great project starts with an idea, not a blueprint.

    To say “no can do” is not your Mom’s way.

    I can’t see all the nuts and bolts, but I can see a lot more of them than I have time to list here, or that you or anyone else has interest to read. More important is to have a sense of direction, which as stated above, is clearly lacking anywhere, except for the rich.

    I am not suggesting a utopia, I am suggesting something better; unless you think we have the best already…as do the rich and the fools.

    And I am not talking about war; that is a different story.

    To me, it is clear.

  • peter nelson

    Not buying it, you made countless comments on here stating otherwise, esp ones involving the stock market and may I assume your nothing close to being in the same boat Cory is in or what most Americans would consider struggling? but do agree it far more satisfying to do a job you enjoy.

    I hardly make any money at all. The stock market trading I do is in my IRA but I’m too young to collect it. My wife’s company just had a big layoff last week – if she’d been in it we’d have to sell the house in 6 months. And, of course, neither one of us is insurable.

    When I was working 9-5 I was making about $90K a year. I’d be thrilled to make half that now and frankly, if I could find a fulltime sw engineering job for $40K I’d take it just for the security.

    And that’s really my point. Americans think they have some sort of God-given right to the kind of unsustainable lifestyle they had in the 90′s. They talk about the Indians and Chinese taking “their” jobs. But this is reality and life IS a struggle and we have to adjust our expectations to it. The Tea Party is all about anger because they’ve woken up from the American Dream and want to go back to dreaming. The Republicans have promised them they can, but they’ll find out soon enough it’s all snake oil. The numbers are inexorable.

    So I just don’t see the point in running around in a panic or sitting in a corner whimpering. Being angry is popular these days: Obama, the banks, the Chinese, the liberals, the Tea Party – someone must be to blame. But I don’t know a single angry person who’s done anything constructive with their anger, so what’s the point?

    I intend to be a survivor and I’m developing my skills as best I can. I know lots of long-term unemployed who just hang out all day and they give the rest of us a bad name. I’m wasting too much of my time here on OnPoint!

  • peter nelson

    To say “no can do” is not your Mom’s way.

    I didn’t say “no can do”, I said that a vague feeling that things could be better or different is useless without some detail. Otherwise you don’t know what steps to take.

    If your change requires laws then you run up against US political culture, which is way farther to the right than any other major democracy, and dominated by money and apathy. So what IS your plan?

    In physics there is the square-of-the-distance law which says that radiant energy gets weaker with the square of the change in distance (e.g., the light from a bulb 6 feet away is 1/4 the light from 3 feet away). The same applies to our ability to influence things – we can control ourselves but our power diminishes rapidly much beyond that. So rather than fretting about India or the Tea Party or Google, which we have no control over, we should think locally – REALLY locally, like how can we improve ourselves?

  • Michael

    This should be a great piece for our Brazilian commenter and how U.S. taxpayers are flipping the bill at the tone of 147 million dollars a year to Brazilian Cotton Growers. Of course one such Brazilian farmer got in the Brazilian government and manage to get an kickback from such.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/11/09/131192182/cotton

    147 million(per year) borrowed from china to pay Brazilian cotton farmers (must be the great grammar and spelling of those farmers).

    How is it for Brazilian farmers to expect to keep there jobs and seek the Brazilian dream when they have to rely on Americans paying them to work?

    I’ll used an republican line, the government is taking from our grandchildren and giving the money to foreigners to compete against use.

    What’s 147 million dollars plus interest each year?

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    I hear you guys going back and forth about how rich are we, but I still like my likening our situation to that of Violetta in La Traviata, where she is voting like Americans on November 2nd to be sempre libera, to have minimal government and maximal freedom; let the future worry about itself, even as the consumption that will take her life is beginning to put down roots. But nobody sees that, not the father who stands above her spat with the young man who offers her the camellia and true love, though this little spitfire says that is “Folia!” and looks like she’s about to vomit at the idea, right over the arm of the love seat.
    We prostitute ourselves as a nation for the American Dream and for wealth, with blinders on. We get angry and throw our champaign glasses at the wall at the very idea of being obligated to a future. Responsibility? Do you know what we are actually like? And the old guy watching over this from the balcony has probably had his experiences with power and beauty involving desirable conquests of the feminine sort or otherwise, and casts a shadow of caution. My son, you are throwing away a great tradition and possibilities for the future of our kind. (Il Provenza, il mar, del sol — I don’t know the words but Il provenza will find it on line.)
    But the son and the glamorous young lady end up with tragedy. One dies (the woman, the American dream or the Land of Promise, America, in my comparison), and the young man ends up with a broken heart.
    Here Violetta is again, Greedy Corporate America irresponsible and doomed — incarnate waste, a threat to this or that? Or a tasty morsel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSPK7Ayuw3s

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    Di provenza (Guermond, the father, gives very bad advice for very good reasons. Forget Paris and the glitzy life of gambling and irresponsibility, and come back to earth (literally, the countryside where you came from, I believe). This is Robert Merrill in 1946. Only 1,233 views but by far the best. It’s hard to sing it without sounding ridiculous. The guy standing in the balcony in the Sempre Libera would be this father. As the PhD from India posted, the United States is very young, and India has been playing these games for millennia.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atx5uvMN6Ms&feature=related

  • Flowen

    Peter

    “Plan” is too premature. I’m still mostly in the “understanding” phase.

    But I can briefly share what I do know; much of it has been mentioned in my previous posts over the past month. I am also distracted by OnPoint and its’ discussions, more than I should be, but I am getting something out of it.

    First, it is clear that we have gotten into this lousy situation because the political/corporate psychopaths (p/c p) have thoroughly confused, and then artificially divided the population against itself. In this environment, they have been able to write the rules to suit themselves. Clearly, nothing good will come out of confusion, so the confusion has to be cleared.

    As the confusion is cleared, people will see how few bad guys can make so many good guys miserable. As things continue to get worse (no question about that, it’s just a matter of how fast), a ground swell of demand for change will build. At that point, if that energy can be channeled, we will have an opportunity to see some genuine change in the public interest. The motivation for this will be the realization that we may well fall into chaos, which is a distinct risk, with or without fascist control. The Democratic Party may or may not play a significant role; based on history, that is not likely. Of course, there is the possibility that a 3rd Party, or some other non-political movement may emerge. It is almost expected.

    The energy behind the Tea Party is a taste of what is to come.

    We have to assume the existing Constitutional system will hold and can be used. Without it, it will truly be every man for themselves.

    If that energy can be channeled, a vision will be needed to know where change needs to be made; and concurrently, a story to replace The American Dream will be necessary.

    I know this sounds like pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. I’ll grant you that, but it is what I know.

    How this all comes about will be an un-folding dance that cannot be choreographed or predicted, but I predict it will follow the rough outline.

    Alternatively, I think the chance of resuscitating The American Dream is about 3-5%; the chance of it being subverted by an evil authoritarian force I believe is also very small, partly because we are an armed population, we have humungus size and variability in terrain and population, and we vastly outnumber the military. However, in truth, anything could happen.

    Another possibility is that the p/c ps transform the US into a client state of China, or some such, which is probably the most likely outcome, especially if we really lose internal control completely to the p/c ps. This is obviously speculation, and there are undoubtedly other possible outcomes that are unforseeable.

    WRT the vision, where to begin? There are a lot of obvious things that are essential: one is a more equitable and simple income tax with significantly higher taxes on high incomes; simplified loop-hole free corporate taxes; reduce the input large Business interests have in governance, including elimination of the “revolving door,” and re-working lobbyist activities; eliminate government subsidy for business of ANY kind in tax law and general legislation (we don’t need to pick winners if we stop subsidizing losers); break up any organization that becomes too-big-to-fail; debate, recognize, and act on issues of genuine public interest (today unsolved problems are more valuable to p/c ps than solved problems); fine and ostracize any p/c p that engages in mis-information and lies in politics and business; attach a greater value to clean energy than dirty energy; hold all business responsible for all costs associated with their operations in pursuit of profit; bring rational spending to the military budget, which is vastly over-sized in its expenditures to Corporations, with little practical benefit.

    I will argue that the steps above will 1) automatically down-size government (much of government is about managing, ie. maximizing, US corporate benefits), 2) enhance revenue to sufficient surplus that we can have both reasonable taxes, and if we get the true free market right, sufficient revenue for social benefits such as free basic health clinics, better education oriented to production rather than consumption, security in old age, and guarantees of health, safety, and security for all.

    On the private economy side, proper tax law and legislation can re-focus value on quality instead of quantity. This will result in an economy that runs on fewer overall transactions, reducing the psychological stress associated with a high volume of adversarial relationships that have come to characterize business today.

    Proper income tax structure can eliminate the incentive to make money however possible; rather, to make money the old fashioned way: earn it by providing a genuinely valuable product or service. A big plus is the elimination of uncertainty in operating environments with the government being not involved playing political football.

    We also need to come up with alternatives to working, as there are already insufficient jobs for everyone. Many, many jobs are already make-work that only serve to pump up the economy and private profits with activity that on net basis, is destructive to public interest.

    While products and services will be relatively more expensive, it will be of such higher quality and reliability that lifetime costs will be dramatically less. Similarly, by eliminating subsidies to the energy, transportation, and agricultural and factory food sectors, the volume of local business will be dramatically expanded. Taxes could be significantly less for middle class families, allowing families to contribute just one member to the workforce, instead of two working and not making it now.

    Obviously lots and lots and lots of details. I’ve tried to hit the high points, and I present it as starting points. While under the existing Constitutional structure, life would look much, much different. Taking the best of the 1960s, modernized to the 21st Century.

    Life will always be a struggle, but it doesn’t have to be a fight for your life in the USA. It doesn’t seem like it, but we are by far, the most wealthy country in history. We really can do anything we want, if we can get past doing what the p/c ps wants, and recognize that their noise is only an attempt to maintain the Status Quo: exercising control and exploitation of the population. They will say anything to preserve their interest, and as a class, they have no genuine public interest.

    Like I say, it is short of a plan, but it is a list of some of the essential features as I see them. I’d welcome an opportunity to argue any of them, or others.

    It’s a matter of social engineering in any case. We can either participate in it, or let the Corporate/Government criminals continue doing it as they always have. It is our collective choice. This is one vote I would show up for!

  • Flowen

    Michael @ 6:57

    Yeah I heard most of that report on Marketplace. Aren’t we paying the $147Million annually to Brazil to not grow cotton, so they don’t destroy the market for our millionaire US cotton growers who we also subsidize? I think we’re also paying both sides of both wars!

    Like I say, criminals are making our laws.

  • Flowen

    Ellen and Michael

    Another thing I remember from Tom Friedman on Charlie Rose last night: if I recall, he said they tried to get 8 of the National Labs set up to do basic renewable energy research with a budget of $25Million annually for each.

    In their infinite wisdom, they decided 5 (or was it 3?) labs were enough, with $12Million annual budget. When Freiedman was talking to an official in Singapore, the official couldn’t believe is was $12Million and not $12Billion. It has also been my experience that many intelligent foreigners look at US and wonder what is wrong with US?

    And today the story about paying the Brazilian cotton growers $147Million, on top of the long time subsidy to the millionaire US cotton growers.

    It is just a matter of time before we sheep reach our limits of tolerance. When that happens, the pols will have little clue what to do.

    However, I do predict that the Repub Congress will, contrary to all their rhetoric, provide a substantial cash bribe to us in the middle class soon. They will continue to try to reflate and re-float the economy because they are a one-trick pony; it is the only thing they know how to do.

  • Ellen Dibble in Northampton, MA

    FLowen, I usually agree with Michael as well, though there are two Michael’s that are quite different but I agree with each. You are addressing the urgency of stepping outside the box somehow, and I too heard that about someone in Singapore telling Friedman $12 Billion for R&D would make much more sense. Without major outlays for change (not profit but change; therefore probably a government outlay), how exactly can the United States (or any nation) lead the way into the 21st century?
    I like your program, though, as you set it out. I wouldn’t be a one who would know how to run with that, however. To the extent I myself try to steer things, I think people pick up bits and pieces, like dandelion tufts, and plant those seeds in ways that are not always intentional, and not always easily discernible. I don’t conduct my hopes for global change like a military campaign with pitched battles and clear victories or defeats, and I accept the scope is beyond my lifespan and beyond my range of comprehension and perception.
    Actually that is a pretty important starting point, that people who may feel mainly frustrated and confused can be like me, and be validated in the high thin air where we might think we don’t belong. We can function/operate with something other than total first-strike strength and complete foresight and knowledge. We can and we must proceed with a kind of humility that is unprecedented.
    We must assert with uncertainty. Global warming is not really so uncertain. But the way international monetary transactions and tariffs and taxation enact social engineering, for instance — if everyone votes (and we want democracies everywhere right?), then everyone pretty much has to understand matters of money and power, or else we will vote irresponsibly. I believe it was Beverly who posted way back, there should be penalties for lying to voters, for practicing deception on significant matters.

    How often does a democracy go around campaigning like that??
    In other words, what seems possible here and using the Internet more broadly, is the approach: Keep at it, and expect others to take the best that you have and make much better “seeds” from it. Don’t think you can say something once and leave it at that, unless you are Beethoven or Verdi, maybe.

  • millard_fillmore

    Ellen:

    When you mentioned Arundhati Roy as the source (only source?) of your information regarding India, that raised a huge red flag. Arundhati Roy has little credibility in India and her writings are nothing more than screeds/rants. It’s unfortunate that the media in the US can’t find anyone else to talk about India, which results in extremely skewed perspectives.

    ‘Of late, even sedition has become fashionable, thanks to the mobile, one-woman, republic of Arundhati Roy. She does not perhaps know that the original Booker was a slave trader in Guyana. So her hands are stained by cash from the slave trade. But she is weak in history and wants to alter geography. If her audience protests against her seditious remarks, they are at fault, not she. As for Anderson, he left in 1984 saying, “I am free to go home. Bye-bye.”’

  • millard_fillmore
  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    Millard, links to Democracy Now’s 11/8/10 show on India. I think the Roy interview is a re-play. http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/8/big_business_not_poverty_tops_obamas

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/8/obama_makes_no_mention_of_pakistani

    September 28, 2009

    “Author Arundhati Roy on the Human Costs of India’s Economic Growth, the View of Obama from New Delhi, and Escalating US Attacks in Af-Pak
    We’re joined from the Indian capital of New Delhi by the Booker Prize-winning novelist, political essayist and global justice activist Arundhati Roy.”

    Part of the transcript of Arundhati Roy (by the way, not an author I know; but I listen to Amy Goodman enough to know she turns up news that is relevant but NOT the top of all three networks):

    “Arundhati, we welcome you to Democracy Now! And as you listen to this report from the streets of G-20 by our producer Steve Martinez, talk about globalization and what has happened to democracy.

    “ARUNDHATI ROY: Well, that’s a huge subject, Amy. And I think my book—in my book, I discuss it in some detail in terms of what’s happening to India. But as we know now, because of the way the global economy is linked, countries are not—you know, the political systems in countries are also linked, so democracies are linked to dictatorships and military occupations and so on. We know that. We now that some of the main military occupations in the world today are actually administered by democracies: Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir.

    “But what I think is beginning to be very clear now is that we see now that democracy is sort of fused to the free market, or to the idea of the free market. And so, its imagination has been limited to the idea of profit. And democracy, a few years ago, maybe, you know, even twenty-five years ago, was something that, let’s say, a country like America feared, which was why democracies were being toppled all over the place, like in Chile and so on. But now wars are being waged to restore—to place democracy, because democracy serves the free market, and each of the institutions in democracy, like you look at India, you know, whether it’s the Supreme—whether it’s the courts or whether it’s the media or whether it’s all the other institutions of democracy, they’ve been sort of hollowed out, and just their shells have been replaced, and we play out this charade. And it’s much more complicated for people to understand what’s going on, because there’s so much shadow play.

    “But really we are facing a crisis. And that’s what I ask. You know, is there life after democracy? And what kind of life will it be? Because democracy has been hollowed out and made meaningless. And when I say “democracy,” I’m not talking about the ideal. You know, I’m not saying that countries that live in dictatorships and under military occupation should not fight for democracy, because the early years of democracy are important and heady. And then we see a strange metastasis taking over.”
    (End of quote)

    I’ll let you argue specifically, rather than in general. I don’t know Roy’s work other than this interview.

    I might post another piece of it.

  • Ellen Dibble, Northampton, MA

    More from the interview (This is not all I know; I don’t even know this; barely. That is why I’m sharing it. I don’t have enough context to be able to evaluate it all. But it’s a start.)

    “AMY GOODMAN: We continue with Arundhati Roy, speaking to us from New Delhi, India, talking about India, war and globalization. I’m here with co-host Anjali Kamat. Anjali?

    “ANJALI KAMAT: Meanwhile, inside India, the focus has shifted to a different adversary. The stage is set for a major domestic military offensive against an armed group that the Indian prime minister has repeatedly called the country’s, quote, “gravest internal security threat.”

    “Operation Green Hunt will reportedly send between 75,000 and 100,000 troops to areas seen as Maoist strongholds in central and eastern India. In June, India labeled the Naxalite group, the Communist Party of India—Maoist—a terrorist organization, and earlier this month India’s home minister came to the United States to share counterterror strategies.

    “The Indian government blames the deaths of nearly 600 people this year on Maoist violence and claims that Maoist rebels are active in twenty out of the twenty-eight states in the country. The Indian prime minister Manmohan Singh outlined the threat to a conference of state police chiefs earlier this month.

    “PRIME MINISTER MANMOHAN SINGH: In many ways, the left-wing extremism poses perhaps the gravest internal security threat our country faces. We have discussed this in the last five years. And I would like to state, frankly, that we have not achieved as much success as we would have liked in containing this menace.

    “[ANJALI KAMAT:]
    Can you make sense, Arundhati, of what is happening inside India for an audience around the world?

    “ARUNDHATI ROY: Well, let me just pick up on what Anjali was talking about just now, about the assault that’s planned on the so-called Maoists in central India. You know, when September 11th happened, I think some of us had already said that a time would come when poverty would be sort of collapsed and converge into terrorism. And this is exactly what’s happened. The poorest people in this country today are being called terrorists.

    “And what you have is a huge swath of forest in eastern and central India, spreading from West Bengal through the states of Jharkhand, Orissa and Chhattisgarh. And in these forests live indigenous people. And also in these forests are the biggest deposits of bauxite and iron ore and so on, which huge multinational companies now want to get their hands on. So there’s an MoU [Memorandum of Understanding] on every mountain, on every forest and river in this area.

    “And about in 2005, let’s say, in central India, the day after the MoU was signed with the biggest sort of corporation in India, Tatas, the government also announced the formation of the Salwa Judum, which is a sort of people’s militia, which is armed and is meant to fight the Maoists in the forest. But the thing is, all this, the Salwa Judum as well as the Maoists, they’re all indigenous people. And in, let’s say, Chhattisgarh, something like the Salwa Judum has been a very cruel militia, you know, burning villages, raping women, burning food crops. I was there recently. Something like 640 villages have been burned. Out of the 350,000, first about 50,000 people moved into roadside police camps, from where this militia was raised by the government. And the rest are simply missing. You know, some are living in cities, you know, eking out a living. Others are just hiding in the forest, coming out, trying to sow their crops, and yet getting, you know, those crops burnt down, their villages burnt down. So there is a sort of civil war raging.

    “And now, I remember traveling in Orissa a few years ago, when there were not any Maoists, but there were huge sort of mining companies coming in to mine the bauxite. And yet, they kept—all the newspapers kept saying the Maoists are here, the Maoists are here, because it was a way of allowing the government to do a kind of military-style repression. Of course, now they’re openly saying that they want to call out the paramilitary.”

    You see, a fair amount of this is coming from Democracy Now!, as well as from author Roy.
    The interview goes on much longer, with many examples of the way foreign investment in India has disrupted things. This was so back when Mughul India created the split between the Hindus and the Muslims, a medieval intrusion, and then when the East India Company brought British colonialism to India. Foreigners are not new there. (Not that I’m a scholar, but that is some of the context I bring.)
    What is your point?

  • millard_fillmore

    “What is your point?”

    What is yours, Ellen? That you believe everything that Arundhati Roy says without even fact-checking it and/or critically analyzing it, just because she appeared on Democracy Now?

    That Maoists are some benign people who haven’t massacred innocent people, while Salwa Judam are malignant? That Maoists don’t burn any villages or force people to join their gang by threatening to kill them? Where do you think the state-of-the-art guns and ammunition that Maoists use to kill innocents, comes from? It grows on trees? Or, in your view, their violence is justified, but the state’s response is not?

    That all those indigenous people don’t want to join rest of the world and instead, want to live in a primitive manner in the forest?

    That Kashmir is an occupied territory without you even checking its history and long association with India, and the Instrument of Accession signed by the King of Kashmir when Pakistan invaded it?

    That Kashmiri Pandits, who were persecuted (of course, Arundhati Roy doesn’t mention who did the persecution and why – even if mentioned, it’s all in a passive voice, as if the Kashmiri Pandits persecuted themselves) and driven out of their homes, have no human rights? Only the Kashmiri Muslims have them? Are you aware that Kashmir doesn’t have only Muslim residents – there are Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists? Do you have any idea what Geelani’s plan is for non-Muslim Kashmiri people?

    All this information is freely available on wikipedia and on the internet – please do some research of your own. If you believe everything you hear at Democracy Now, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

  • millard_fillmore

    Ellen,

    Here’s an article on Pakistan – you might want to read it very carefully:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/28/AR2010092806354.html

  • Ellen Dibble

    I was hoping someone like yourself might help me evaluate what I had heard, seeing as how probably some people interested in India would likely be watching this site. So you provided exactly what I’m looking for. I plan to get Woodward’s whole book once it’s in paperback, but there is a lot written about in English about India from all sorts of perspectives. It’s so vast. What I can get here is perspectives that are often less refined than in Wikipedia and books. I do keep an eye out for India; books with an economic focus tend to be either extremely technical or novels, which show a part of India, but someone like me has difficulty getting a sense of how that small piece fits into the whole, or maybe something sociopolitical with a rather small focus. What I don’t hear so much is people who are able to give an overview, both economic and cultural. Perhaps it’s not possible. That’s okay. I can understand I’m just getting a part of the whole. But Africa, Asia, Middle East, India, Russia — all of them are great unknowns to me, past and present. Another generation is going to have to take on global understanding more than any previous. Sorry but I have my limitations.

  • Gavin

    This program left the listener with the incorrect impression that the UK and France were the US’s largest trading partners, to be outdone by India in the coming decades. Google “US largest trading partners” to find who the largest partner is, by far. Hint: it’s in North America.

    Thanks, enjoy your program on XM.

  • Gail

    In every country where free trade deals (globalization) takes place, average citizens hate it and protest the economic injustice on their streets.

    Why? Average citizens understand they are being ripped off financially by big business and mega banks.

    Here’s the latest G20 anti-globalization protestors in Seoul, South Korea protesting ahead of this week’s G20 meeting:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK298tHty5c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXK12ZF_Rbg

  • joe

    The biggest, baddest bully on the global playground is the USA – he takes whatever he wants, beats other kids up, threatens all those he does not beat up, and struts around the playground. He steals kid’s lunches— hoarding and feeding while kicking sand in their eyes. He becomes increasingly bloated, impacted— and yet continues to feed. And while feeding— ingesting mini mansions, SUVs, Flatscreen TVs, and loads of Bling…. he is sad. He’s bloated and addicted — he’s deep down sad — and fat as hell and miserable and consuming the vast majority of the white drugs on the planet. So it isn’t really working. It’s not making that bully feel any better. He’s still miserable even with all of those lunches he steals and eats. He’s not happy driving his SUV into the airlock garage of his porchless minimansion. His identity is caught up with all of it. He’s an ass kicker and he gets whatever he wants. Cuz he’s the U.S.A. …..and all of this is backed up by the simple fact that if you get in his way he’s gonna unleash some shock and awe on your backside. Send a drone attack to come ferret you out of your hiding place back there behind the band room.

    This kind of crap has got to stop.

    The USA needs to begin the process of saying “I’m sorry”, start learning some manners and begin to share.

    You can do it…. just use your words…. good boy… that’s it.

  • Arius

    Two issues -

    1. Job issues – which really stem from lack of innovation in US currently and will be solved as soon as a new technology comes in the market. For this US needs to invest in research which is at rock bottom level since world war II. Why?? Because govt wants to show they are cutting spending, Why?? because they want to stimulate economy by printing money, Why?? because there are no jobs. Tough one right? So basically to get some short term job gains, govt is willing to gamble the long term future of the US and blaming the problem on outsourcing. Both Obama and republicans are alike in this. Everyone who knows a lil bit about business knows that outsourcing is good for US businesses to keep the cost of your products low and keep them competitive in global market. Why global market?? because US consumer capacity is shrinking. Why?? because they overspent and now facing the consequences.
    So basically more bad days to come with no easy solution. If you kill outsourcing, I will take my business entirely to Indian or China. Do you think businessmen are fools?

    2. Strategic Global partnership – US has created a mess in South Asian reason by funding jihadist to fight Russians. Now to clear this mess, they are running around asking other countries for help. It took US 2 centuries that India and China are too big countries which you cannot ignore. So US started partnering with China (obviously bigger first). They didn’t think about human rights violation or communist govt then. The relationship didn’t go anywhere. Now they are trying with India which I don’t think is going to work either. Indian and China are actually natural allies which have ties going back centuries, they both are proud countries and respect each other for their culture and people.
    I think it will be easier for India and China to patch up, then either one of them to trust US.

  • Arius

    One more thing – I heard someone saying that the term ‘outsourcing’ is obsolete. Multinational companies have shops all over the world, they hire people all over. They obviously move around jobs too based on cost and resource availability. Only one advise to Americans who think India is our enemy -
    If you are that smart, start your own business and hire only Americans and be profitable. Don’t take any help from any India or any software created by Indian. If you survive, you have done much bigger than writing a stupid comment here.

  • http://thoreaulylazy.blogspot.com thoreaulylazy

    A lot of people are making remarks like “if only India bought as much from here as we buy from India” — yet, the irony is that we have a trade surplus with India. That is, India buys more stuff from the U.S. than we buy from India. Contrast that with our massive trade deficit with China. Partnering with India is the prudent economical choice.

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