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Turkey's Moves, U.S.-Israel Impact

With Israel and Turkey now sharply at odds, a big American observer says embrace Turkey, and one day Iran–and Israel.

Turkey's Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, right, meets with Israeli cleric and peace activist Menachem Froman in Ankara, Turkey, Thursday, June 3, 2010. (AP)

The world and its balance of power are changing, shifting, maybe faster than Americans realize. 

In the Mideast, says my guest today, longtime bigfoot foreign correspondent Stephen Kinzer, it’s time for new core allies for the United States. It’s time to re-center away from Saudi Arabia and Israel and toward Turkey and, of all things, Iran. 

At a time when Turkey is blasting the U.S. and Israel after the flotilla raid, and Iran is in the American bulls-eye for U.N. sanctions, it may sound fanciful. Kinzer says it’s the future to aim for.  

This Hour, On Point: Turkey, Iran, Israel – and turning points in the Middle East.

Guests:

Stephen Kinzer, former foreign correspondent for the New York Times and author of the new book “Reset: Iran, Turkey, and America’s Future.” His other books include “A Thousand Hills: Rwanda’s Rebirth and the Man Who Dreamed It” and “All the Shah’s Men.” You can listen back to On Point’s segment with Kinzer about Rwanda.

Kenneth Adelman, veteran U.S. diplomat who was deputy U.N. ambassador under President Reagan and Assistant U.S. Defense Secretary under President Ford. He is national editor of Washingtonian magazine.

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  • roger

    how about letting helen thomas moderate the discussion?

  • regor

    How about getting David Duke or Noam Chomsky to moderate?

  • marty

    how about letting hamas or their spokesperson “the BBC” moderate the discussion?

  • Michael

    The only mistake HT made was not saying that against the Palestine’s if she said that Arabs should go back to Egypt, Jordan, Syria like most Zionist, Israeli Officials, Neo Cons and Reporters in the U.S. there would have been a silence from the ADL, AIPAC, U.S. officials.

    The statement was probably not the brightest to make, but seems saying that is worst than 9 people dying in Robert Gibs eyes.

  • justine

    how come no one talks about the 1 million jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries? I thought jews controled the media!!!!

  • Michael

    Yes,

    Why can’t the U.S. news do what the bbc does with getting information for all parties? Is UK journalism that much better than here? (of course the answer is yes) but many public stations like (hereandnow) whats with the bbc.

  • allen

    how about talking about the virulent anti-Semitism that is now invading the web . Don’t tell me WBUR is not aware of it……

  • JP

    I’m sick of Israel being granted immunity from the truth… it’s plain wrong that anyone who criticizes Israeli policies gets labeled anti-semitic… Israel does not deserve that cop-out and then a free pass, over and over and over again.

    Too many in the middle east are simply nuts!

    Why do we have anything to do with any of it?!!!

    Get the U.S. the hell out of the Middle East and stop giving Israel money!

    If we stopped insisting on forcing our resource interests on these countries and let them sell what they have at free-market prices… sure, we’d have to pay higher prices for oil and such, and deal with occasional shortages due to instability… but we’d probably save at least a trillion dollars a year by not needing such a bloated military, and by not incurring all of the expenses involved in propping up illegitimate regimes we deem “favorable” to our interests.

    In the long run, we’d save much more money than we’d incur in higher resource costs, we’d probably be a lot less dependent on those resources in the first place, we’d be more secure without having to spend so much on U.S. internal and external security, and our society and markets could be more free and open.

    The U.S. does not need to be the world’s police force!
    The only real benefactor of our insane policies is the industrial-military complex, and we’d be so much better off if we wised up.

    People should have listened to our Commander-in-Chief, General Dwight David Eisenhower, when he warned us about this insanity sixty years ago

  • Michael

    “how come no one talks about the 1 million jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries? I thought jews controled the media!!!!”

    I thought the attempt was to get as many jews to come to israel by zionist? this could clearly have played a role in many jews going to israel, often illegally.

    I missed the campaign to help jews go back to there country, but i didn’t miss the campaign to get jews out of other countries with both Israeli and U.S. tax dollars.

    Just think after HT made that gaffe israeli PM asked for more military aid from the Obama administration not only as on may 14 at the tune of 200 million but yet again

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8681919.stm

  • JP

    … Israel would not be needed as a “buffer zone” if we just smartened up!

  • Sean

    Compensation for the 1 million jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries (a lot more than so called palestinians who left of their own free will when told to come back when jews had been exterminated .Stop rewriting history!!!!

  • Stop the anti S bull and free speech restrictions

    “how about talking about the virulent anti-Semitism that is now invading the web . Don’t tell me WBUR is not aware of it……”

    How abot the virulent anti-muslim, anti-arabs,(who some btw are semites) anti-free speech, that is now invading the web. Don’t tell me WBUR is not aware of it….”

    Anti-Semitism’ As
    A Political Weapon
    http://www.rense.com/general66/sem.htm

    There is much talk of disarming countries with nuclear weapons. Not the US and its allies, but the so-called ‘rogue states’, especially Iran, which doesn´t yet have any weapons. Israel is hardly ever mentioned as a nuclear power although it has been for a long time. In spite of its advanced plans to bomb Iran, Israel is not seen as a threat to the surrounding world. The media regularly criticizes severely various religions, especially Islam, but never Judaism. Catholic pressure through lobbying, or the Pope´s speeches on political issues are discussed and criticized. The fight in South Africa against the Boers involved a whole world. Not because they were a “race” with undesirable characteristics, but because they were the social group who in their own interests formed and administrated a racist apartheid system. The same sort of criticism was aimed at the followers of Cecil Rhodes in Rhodesia.

  • maureen
  • Michael

    Just to note in the early 1900- to 1914 arabs took jews in with far more open arms than the Europeans, and got land taken, jobs loss and got colonialist and apartheid polices

    “The new immigrants arrived with the ideals of socialist Zionism, but reality was not favorable to implementing those ideas. The Zionist movement attempted to find them work. but the new immigrants , who had no training in agriculture and poor physical stamina, were unable to compete with Arab peasants. Arabs certainly would not hire Jewish workers, who could not work well and could not speak Arabic. Arab labor was also preferred by the plantation and vineyard owners of the first Aliya. Arabs were experienced and hard workers, and were able to work for much lower wages because they were often members of an extended family that made its main income from sharecropping. The plantation owners had also developed a superior colonialist mentality which suited the hiring of “natives,” and clashed with the egalitarian ideas and social demands of the newly arrived socialists.

    The socialist Zionist movements tried to force plantation owners to grant higher wages, and also began to insist that plantation owners hire only Jewish workers. This aspect of “conquest of labor” was controversial within the socialist-Zionist movements because it engendered lack of solidarity with the Arab working class and was discriminatory.”
    The boycott of Arab labor, only partly successful, was carried out reluctantly as a matter of necessity, and because the establishment of Jews as a class of colonial plantation owners seemed worse than the alternative. The discriminatory program of “conquest of labor” also provoked bitterness among some Arabs, particularly watchmen who lost their jobs to Jews. In the main however, the “conquest of labor” movement was initially unsuccessful, nor could it have much real influence on the economic prospects of Arabs.
    http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

    people forget the cause and effect.

  • Michael

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127468342

    KENYON: Well, that’s right. And I’ve been trying to sort that out, and Israel’s point, which is true, is that no one in Gaza is starving. I went to markets. There is food there. The problem is, few people are buying because they dont have much money. They just can’t afford it. The economy’s essentially been crushed here. Many people get food rations. The majority, in fact, get food rations from the U.N. and other groups.

    I spoke to one U.N. official who said many Gazans get one meal a day and most of or all get at least one every second day, so no one is starving but many are going hungry. And then he went on to say there are critical shortages that are building into humanitarian crises of other sorts.

    INSKEEP: What sort of shortages?

    KENYON: Well, severe water problems, for one. The officials say that much of Gaza’s water supply is contaminated. The sewage system is failing, in part because Israel won’t allow sewage pipes into the strip. In the past, pipes have been used to make rockets. So experts are saying a lot of the sewage is now seeping into the water aquifer. The health implications are significant. There’s chronic power outages. The electricity’s off for at least eight hours a day, pretty much every day. Rebuilding materials for the power stations aren’t getting in, and all kinds of reconstruction problems. The cement and steel that isn’t getting in is causing a lot of problems. The U.N. says they urgently need to build 100 schools, for example, but so far there’s nothing to build them with

  • laura

    How about ” Israel the miracle that it is still democratic even though it has been attacked and besieged since its birth by hateful fascist governments determined to destroy it”

  • Michael

    More than 80% of Palestinians in Gaza rely on humanitarian assistance, with UN food aid going to about 1.1 million people – three quarters of the population.

    READ THE FULL REPORT

    The Gaza Strip: A Humanitarian Implosion [1.76MB]
    Most computers will open this document automatically, but you may need Adobe Reader
    Download the reader here

    The number of families dependant on the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (Unrwa) has increased tenfold since 1999.

    Household monthly incomes dropped by 22% in less than four months (June-September 2007). The number of households earning less than $1.20 per person per day went from 55% to 70%.

    The UN appeal for humanitarian aid in 2008 is $462m, more than twice the 2006 appeal and the third largest UN request after Sudan and Congo.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7191359.stm

  • Todd

    “how about talking about the virulent anti-Semitism that is now invading the web.”
    Posted by allen

    That would be a good topic of discussion. BUT, be sure not to confuse anti-semitism with anti-zionism—the two are NOT synonymous.

  • Sean
  • allen

    “the two are NOT synonymous”

    That’s what racists want you to think .

  • TBrandstad

    The US will always be an alli of Israel and to deny this is ridiculous. Has everyone heard the boat captains communications between the flotilla and the Israeli ship? Why has the mainstream media not plaid the antisemitic hatred uttered by the flotilla captain? Is it because it doesn’t fit their agenda?

  • TBrandstad

    Iran will never be a friend of the US until the regime is changed from within!

  • laura

    yes they were peaceful activists!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU

  • Todd

    ““the two are NOT synonymous”

    That’s what racists want you to think.”
    Posted by allen

    It is by THINKING that one realizes the two are not the same.

  • Sam Kopper

    Zero doubt, this “reset” is long overdue. Our 60+ year nearly totally unquestioned support of Israel and Arab oil dictators has not only been counter to our own ideals and long-term interests, it has provided aid and comfort to Muslim extremists, has enraged “the street” around the world. The elephant in the room last week re Helen Thomas – no doubt, her remarks were insensitive, impractical, and even extreme; but the fire storm that resulted was traceable solely to the choke-hold AIPAC has on American politics AND MEDIA! Similar remarks about ANY other nation or people on Earth, would never have resulted in the raction we saw. It’s time the dog starts focusing on its interests and HIGHER ideals and cease being ruled by its wagging tail.

  • David Henry

    Turkey held down the southern flank of NATO for 50 years and has supplied troops in the Korean war, the first gulf war and now Afghanistan. They are already our most important ally in the region.

  • TBrandstad

    Turkey should feel lucky they are not part of the EU. The EU is in the beginning stages of breaking up.

  • Dennis Kerr

    Context is everything. Israel, under Netanyahu, has tried as hard as it can to alienate her allies, when they are needed most as Hamas is in power in areas of Palestine.

    New settlements, the worst policy Israel could come up with, damages the long term stability of the region. And it damages the special relationship with those of us who support Israel’s well being here in America. And it emboldens political fringe in Turkey who want to exploit anger created in Muslim communities.

    Many of us who want the best for Israel, are upset because Netanyahu is incompetently ruining everything.

    The flotilla organizers were not playing chess. They were playing checkers. Israel should have figured out how to cope with this much better.

    Ideas like propeller fouler nets were not even tried. If the disabled ships were just sitting there, what kind of boring video would that be? Could the flotilla organizers use this as well?

    Netanyahu wants desperate situations because he is misguided in his view that it would somehow help his movement that pretends to be conservative.

    So much as North Korea wants to keep things bad, to stay as a dependent of China, it seems Israel conservatives think that keeping things desperate is the best way to preserve the special relationship with the US.

  • mike

    Mr Kinzer has not said the word “Hezbollah” — what is his expectation of that group’s actions if the USA ratchets down pressure on Iran?

    And what is the guests’ understanding of the State Department’s calculation re: the Turkey-Brazil deal? Why the cold shoulder? Because of Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric that this was a one-off deal not to be repeated?

    Thanks!

  • http://www.lit.org/author/fritzwilliam F. William Bracy

    I can certainly picture Turkey, but I absolutely cannot picture Iran. Yes the general population in Iran is moderate to some extent, but let us not discount the long, violent and bloody history of the Persians. World history is wrapped up in just a handful of civilizations, and the Persia’s is one of them. Iran would make a very uncomfortable bedfellow–crowding their side of the mattress, tossing and turning through the night and getting up every 20 minutes to go to the bathroom. America really doesn’t need this. The author/guest is articulate and persuasive, but he’s a journalist–not a political scientist. I’m certain that there are other and better analysts out there who would immediately agree … leave Iran to its long-standing penchant for isolationism.

  • Tanya

    Allen, my understanding is that a Semite is a person that follows the religion, culture, and customs of the Jewish faith. My understanding is that a Zionist is a person who supports the belief that Jews constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland in Israel.

    Are you saying that there is no distinction between the two?

  • jeffe

    Michael do support the idea that Israel should cease to exist? Do you support Helen Thomas’ comments that the Jews should go back to Poland and Germany or the other countries that they came from? Do people posting here really understand the post war history of Europe in context to Jews leaving Europe and the former Soviet Union and going to Israel?

    Do you know why her comments about Jews going back to Poland was so offensive? I’m not usually into posting long texts but in this case one must do what one must do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland

    Postwar
    Main article: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944-1946

    Between 40,000 and 100,000 Polish Jews survived the Holocaust in Poland by hiding or by joining the Polish or Soviet partisan units. Another 50,000–170,000 were repatriated from the Soviet Union and 20,000–40,000 from Germany and other countries. At its postwar peak, there were 180,000–240,000 Jews in Poland settled mostly in Warsaw, Łódź, Kraków, Wrocław and Lower Silesia, e.g., Legnica, Dzierżoniów and Bielawa.[134]

    The character of Poland had changed however. In spite of the major Polish contribution to World War II, Poland was placed under direct Soviet control due to British and the US dependence on the Soviet military commitment to the defeat of Hitler and Franklin D. Roosevelt’s unwillingness to confront Stalin over his future plans for Poland. The Soviet style communism was established and the borders of Poland were moved west. The Soviet Union swallowed the eastern regions, which had many ethnic minorities including Jewish shtetl communities.

    The Jewish survivors found it practically impossible to reconstruct their earlier lives as they were before in pre-war Poland.[135] Jewish communities and rich Jewish life ceased to exist. People who somehow survived the Holocaust and who returned to their town or villages often discovered that their homes had been looted or destroyed. Some homes had new inhabitants who at times were very unhappy to see returning Jewish survivors.
    Jewish Holocaust survivors awaiting transportation to the British Mandate of Palestine

    Polish Jews began to leave Poland soon after the Second World War ended for variety of reasons.[136] Many left because Poland became a communist country they did not want to live in, or because all private property has been confiscated by the new communist government. Some left because they did not want to live where their family members were murdered and instead chose to live with relatives in different countries. Many wanted to go to British Mandate of Palestine soon to be new state of Israel. Yet others left because many Poles viewed Jews with hostility due to anti-Semitic prejudice.

    Anti-Jewish riots broke out in several Polish cities and hundreds of Jews were murdered in anti-Jewish violence (see: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944-1946) [35]. The best-known case is the Kielce pogrom of 1946,[36] in which thirty seven Jews were brutally murdered. Kielce anti-Semitic mass murder discouraged most Jewish Holocaust survivors from rebuilding Jewish life in Poland and convinced many to leave Poland forever. The Kielce tragedy has been described by various authors either as an act of provocation, planned and organized by the communists, or as the result of religiously motivated anti-semitism, which had been exacerbated by wartime conditions and the perceived participation of Jews in the postwar communist secret police.

  • http://www.breakpointgallery.com Michael Labelle

    I thought it was interesting that Edelman referred to the Shah as well as the current Islamist Regime when he was stressing how UNDemoctatic Iran was. Did he “forget” to inform listeners that the DEMOCRATICALLY elected Mossadeh was basically toppled with the help of the American CIA who then installed the SHAH, with his SAVAK secret police fighting against all democracy activists with bloody violence and torture

  • slgreek

    It is unfortunate that the Mr. Adelman takes a standard “all or nothing” view, rather that considering the subtleties required to see the long view.

  • Dennis Kerr

    He says welcome to the Neocon movement?

    Israel, Iran and Turkey are under conservative governments.

    See the problem?

  • TBrandstad

    President Carter is the second worst US President behind B.Obama!

  • informed American

    I used to think we could make peace with the Muslim world, not anymore. The U.S needs to support Israel 110%.

  • Dennis Kerr

    Are you T Brandstad, Iowa politician? Or just pretending?

  • Don

    Please tell Ken, that the reason that there has been no Democracy in Iran is because we subverted and got rid of there democratically elected gov’t in the early 50′s. Then installed that Shaw…maybe that’s the reason they don’t trust us?

  • Faust

    This Republican functionary is doing a great job of consolidating every counterproductive argument that is getting is nowhere in the world today.

  • Johno

    Kenneth Adelman personally attacks those he doesn’t agree with, which is a weak debating technique. He should concentrate on the discussion of the issues, instead of sticking to tried and “un”true policy points of the past promulgated by the self proclaimed neocons.

  • sam

    Would regor like to explain why he lumps Noam Chomsky in with David Duke?

  • Dennis Kerr

    We should unleash BP on Iran and help them develop their oil fields!!

  • Dr David Ley

    Tom- Was I the only person who noticed Ken Adelman’s racist comment this morning as he spoke of “crazy muslims” referring to the Iranian mullahs?.
    He is the very person who would foam at the mouth if he heard a radio comment about “crazy Jews” and he would immediately intone the shibboleth of “anti-semitism” !!

    D.L.

  • Lee

    There’s a fundamental difference between Turkey and Israel in how each deals with its “minorities question.” Turkey has used brutal violence in trying to subdue the Kurds and crush separatist sentiment for an independent Kurdish state. Israel, with equal brutality and violence, is trying to expel the Palestinians to provide more living space for a Jews-only Greater Israel. Even Apartheid South Africa did not seek the expulsion of Blacks from the country. They white minority wanted a subjugated Black majority to stay put and continue providing a cheap labor source. What Israel represents today can really best be compared to what European colonists did in making the Native Americans basically disappear from the American continent.

  • Michael

    “Michael do support the idea that Israel should cease to exist? Do you support Helen Thomas’ comments that the Jews should go back to Poland and Germany or the other countries that they came from?”

    I stated previous post Secular yes, Jewish apartheid towards minorities no.

    Helen comments were dumb yet if you replaced jew with arab and the the counties will Jordan, Syria, and Egypt there would be no issue.

    Michael Savage, Many on Foxs, CNN, Washington Post NYT times say far worst than Helens comments yet esp towards blacks, Mexicans, and arabs yet where you outcry on this?No one retires but they do get there own shows and more listeners. .

    As in regards to Jews in Poland and riots against them, I recall this happens to other minority groups around the world as well, But it seems that the people abused are doing the same thing you just listed to the Palestine’s Arabs now.

    How do you justify the abused being the abusers? Both Zionist and Likud clearly state there superior to non jews and that they wish for a Jewish not Secular state of Israel,all not some of Palestine(remember undivided capital ) Which they will be required to create discriminatory laws and an apartheid state to suppress the minority Arabs starting now and more so in the near future .

    I like to hear from you and any other how this is otherwise and what the Israeli government will do when arabs Israelis consist of say 40 to 50% of its populations? Or how more and more land is being stolen in the West Bank the options will end up coming down to a One State. Plus the fact as the U.S. becomes more diverse Israeli support will become weaker. Only difference between a Zionist and a White Suprimist is you can’t call Zionist out for there racism anymore.

    Anyways

    BUR great show, and shows that the Neo-Con’s are still spouting the same weak and failed arguments. Turkey has done a lot to help the U.S. and Keep its Secular Government (unlike Saudi A and others).

    “It is by THINKING that one realizes the two are not the same.”

    Exactly

  • d m nolan

    Ken (Cakewalk) Adelman explains that the world is the way it is because he says so. He was a lousy spokesman when he advocated for the invasion Iraq and he’s a lousy spokesman now. If the Likud party wants to send out someone to argue their point of view, they shoud pick someone with more credibility than this guy.

  • jeffe

    Michael context is everything. You recall this happens to other minority groups around the world as well. And your point is? This is a typical device used to deflect away from the point I was bringing up. Thomas was offensive and she knew it. You are trying to lessen the issues that created the post war conditions in Europe in 40′s and 50′s as they related to the Jewish population. This was context to my comment about Helen Thomas.
    Bottom line Michael is that you think Israel should not exist because it fits your world view. That’s fine.

    I don’t support the current Israeli government and find this situation to very difficult to deal with. However I also find people like yourself to be very selective in what you deem as oppressive governments. If Israel is so bad what does that make Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, India and a host of other countries that treat people with a lack of dignity. How is it that people like yourself only seem to find Israel to be this horrible country? I think it’s because they are Jews, and deep down inside you don’t like them. Does this make you an anti-Semite? No maybe not, but it does bring into question your motives.

  • Brett

    Todd has a good point about the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Of course, as expected, he was immediately labeled a racist!

  • d m nolan

    “We should unleash BP on Iran and help them develop their oil fields!!”
    Go back and look at the role of BP and the rise to power of the Shah. It has been fouling the water for at least sixty years.

  • Brett

    “International exceptionalism for every country!” “Booooo!” “International exceptionalism for no country!” “Booooo!” “International exceptionalism for some countries, but not for others!” “Booooo! Yey! Booooo! Yey! Boooo! Yey!” …It’s beginning to feel a bit like a problem between Springfield and Shelbyville on a Simpson’s episode!

  • Sam Kopper

    The modern version of the scarlet letter is a big red “A” for anti-semite. It’s an instant way to smear, gag and marginalize the speaker. It is pure McCarthyism. A person can, in every way be totally NOT antisemitic (perosnal/professional behavior, address book, etc) but, if he or she utters a word in opposition to extreme Zionists (Jewish OR Christian), he’s brande for life. Original Zionism was a spiritual and social movement with great validity; but WAY back in the 1920s, when the Palestinians had to call to start pushing back after the Ottomans and then the Bristish began stealing their land to hand to the incoming Zionists, THEN the Zionists began to become militant (Stern Gang et all). Since then, they’ve killed palestinians on a 10 to 1 ratio. Last year they accomplshed a 100 to 1 ratio. They have become their 1930-1940s oppressors. Isreal had no “right” to be created on a 2000 year old religious claim, but she HAS the right to continue to exist, because she does exist now. I believe she should get back to the 67 borders and Jerusalem should become an international city, with a shared capital system. Does that opinion make me “antisemitic”?

  • Brian

    Is this the most naive guy ever??? Or is he just touting a stupid “original” idea to get attention?

  • Michael

    “Bottom line Michael is that you think Israel should not exist because it fits your world view. That’s fine”

    Bottom line your personally attack me and that fine, don’t hide as if you not, one could think you think Jews are superior to non Jews with your statements.

    Man jeffe you think headed, I must therefore assume you attempt is to slander and personally attack me, since I stated over and over again,

    “This is a typical device used to deflect away from the point I was bringing up”

    Pot calling the kettle black are we, your whole statement was that the suffering of jews after ww2 was the reason they went to Israel as a minority my point was they are doning the same thing you stated. As well other countries have done the same thing to there minorities, without the minorities going to another countries to do the same thing to the people who already live there.

    “I Don’t support the current Israeli government and find this situation to very difficult to deal with”

    So what? Since you said that I’m guessing you mean to shut me up.I don’t support the actions of iran, china, Saudi A, India, Egypt so that means you can Shut your mouth as well if this is your logic?

    As for Egypt the U.S. keeps the dictator in place to help support Israel, India is our ally, Saudi a is our ally

    “I think it’s because they are Jews, and deep down inside you don’t like them. Does this make you an anti-Semite? No maybe not, but it does bring into question your motives.”

    Well I could say the same “I THINK” because those countries are Arab and Indians you don’t like them. Does this make you a racist bigot or a supremacist? “No maybe not, but it does bring into question your motives.”

    Get off your high horse of calling others names since it’s just as easy to do the same for yourself.

    Oh the Israel was nice enough to allow candy off the banned list to gaza, something non of those other countires ban to its minorities there.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127588455

    “Israeli and Palestinian officials say Israel has allowed some formerly banned food items into the Gaza Strip after widespread international criticism of its three-year-old blockade.
    Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh says Israel has lifted the ban on soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, chips, cookies and sweets. He said Wednesday some products have already entered Gaza.”

    Oh wait you don’t agree with the government so I should bring it up.(jeez some people)

  • Michael

    “Oh wait you don’t agree with the israeli government so I shouldn’t bring it up.(jeez some people)

  • Joan

    The turning point should be recognizing Israel is a failed state whose
    time has come and gone in the 21st century and it is no longer worth
    the cost and suffering of the Palestinian people today…

    As someone on the show mentioned today-Israel has become more
    right wing and thuggish in its militant stance and show no horizon
    of being a law abiding state with a sense of equal justice for all or
    a willingness to be “a good neighbor” as noted in its UN Charter.

    Hence it is a waste of tax payers money and a down right human in-
    justice against the Palestinian people to continue to uphold this state.
    (I should add this is coming from a one time supporter also… )

    In addition, it is the height of hypocrisy itself for the US and EU and the
    Security Council to call for more sanctions agains Iran over its nuclear
    facility when it turns a blind eye on Israel’s undeclared nuclear facility
    and bloated arsenal.

    How dare the apologist Kenneth Adelman try and paint Iran as a supporter
    of terrorism when the Iranians are not occupying another peoples’ land and building illegal settlements in violation of international law and human rights.

    Still, this isn’t the first time the US government have placed Americans on
    the wrong side of the law and the moral argument. One only has to read
    about the CIA in the book A legacy of Ashes to know this is the standard
    practice of the US government to promote the interests of corporate Amer-
    ica.

    Yet as US tax payers and citizens we have an obligation to stop this wrong
    doing in our American name for the sake of justice for the Palestinian peo-
    ple and for peace in the region and indeed the world….

  • Rodney Strulo

    I do not think Iran would be impressed by U.S. offers of friendship. It sees the U.S. as a dying dinosaur – to be placated certainly because it is dangerous, but it sees geopolitical power moving east to China, India, possible Russia.

    Rodney Strulo , Turkey

  • arlene

    Lee , there is no expulsion of Arabs from Israel …where do you get your jihadist information ?

    Sam Kopper : I think you are reading too many nazi websites ….same old , same old .

    jeffe don’t even bother to read michael’s post , Its all the same : everything is Israel’s fault .

  • Michael

    • “Lee , there is no expulsion of Arabs from Israel …where do you get your jihadist information ?

    Gotta love it they can’t dispute it so they attack you

    Sam Kopper : I think you are reading too many nazi websites ….same old , same old .

    Yet again can’t dispute so they must attack

    jeffe don’t even bother to read michael’s post , Its all the same : everything is Israel’s fault .”

    Far from the same, the worst thing to do to a Zionist or blind supporter of israel is present them with facts, evidences they cannot/ very hard to refute.

    Notice such folks like Arlene choose to personally attack others than dispute what the U.N. Human rights groups both within and outside of Israel have documented, notice how nothing about the Israeli right wing government and how it is hurting itself, and the violence against people not in just gaza but in the West Bank, along with illegal Settelement to boot while at the same time evicting and bulldozing Pallies houses. Remember this is being done in the West bank who has the moderate Fatah government who protestors are beaten, shot and killed by the IDF
    Ifamericanonlyknew.org has the stats to prove my point,

    We could always take people like Arlene view that Israel is only defending itself by stealing land, and both human rights and war crimes,that it’s picked on yet has had not a single sanction against. (thanks to U.S. veto)

    Except the fact that it is documented, by Human rights groups, and many news sources Even within Israel.

    Suxs when the truth comes out,

  • Janet

    The more Turkey moves towards radical Islamic state, the less success they will enjoy economically.

  • Matt

    I realize that I could listen to smart people talk about the Middle East all day long. Thank you for focusing so often on this fascinating, frustrating, complex region. Please continue to host these conversations.

  • Dave W.

    Anyone who thinks we ought to cut ties with Israel should call their elected representatives and ask them to explain why we have maintained the relationship all these years. Ask them what we, the US, get from our relationship with Israel that benefits us.
    And anyone who thinks that Israel came into existence because of European guilt over the Holocaust of the 1940s should read the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine of 1920.
    You can’t be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. The very word “Zion” is an ancient Hebrew name for the land of Israel. It has been a central element of the religion, culture and customs of the Jewish people for thousands of years. To deny that is to deny the foundations of the Jewish people, their faith, cultural heritage, and national customs.

  • Lee

    Arlene: There most certainly was, has been, and continues to be a systematic explusion of the Arab population from Israel-Palestine. It started as far back as 1948 when the UN voted the state of Israel into existence, and 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were forced out of their homes by marauding Zionist settler-colonists.

    More Palestinians were forced into Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt during the 1967 conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. Some Palestinians who managed to hang on inside Israel in 1948 were forced to flee to the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. Since then, there has been slow-motion expulsions through home demolitions, exile of West Bankers to the new open-air prison in Gaza, and squeezing Palestinian towns and villages with Jews-only settlements and bypass roads.

    The ongoing strategy is to make life so unbearable that Palestinians will give up and leave. Unfortunately for the Israel planners, the Palestinians have tended to stay put.

    Just open your eyes, Arlene, so the truth can set you free.

  • Bridget Elmeniawy

    “Tom- Was I the only person who noticed Ken Adelman’s racist comment this morning as he spoke of “crazy muslims” referring to the Iranian mullahs?.
    He is the very person who would foam at the mouth if he heard a radio comment about “crazy Jews” and he would immediately intone the shibboleth of “anti-semitism” !!

    D.L.”

    No you weren’t the only one…I was shocked that Tom did not say something right after Ken let that slip out of his mouth. What an extremely poor choice for pro-Israeli representation!

  • Michael

    The term Zionism is nothing close to what it was thought and used in the 1800’s the goal back than was to live with the arabs and populations Christians and/or Muslims were as all three would work together for the betterment of the whole. It than shifted to colonizing and colonial type plantations, to expelling and creating laws only for jews and villages for only jews. As well Zionism was considered Racist by the world up until 1991 cause they believed (must like Aryans today) that Jew were superior to other races. The Israel of 3k years ago was built on genocide and replacement of its populations with Jews. The current Greater Israel is built on the same foundations of replacing Muslims Christians with Jews. Also to note there many religious jews who are against Zionist both within and outside of Israel.

    Zionism does not equal jew. And policies created from it are shown to be deeply racist and discriminatory against it’s minorities.

  • Brett

    I suppose one can’t say anything that is not in support of everything Israel does without the anti-Semite trump card being played, even the pseudo-clever back-door anti-Semite accusation:

    “You can’t be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. The very word “Zion” is an ancient Hebrew name for the land of Israel. It has been a central element of the religion, culture and customs of the Jewish people for thousands of years. To deny that is to deny the foundations of the Jewish people, their faith, cultural heritage, and national customs.” -Dave W.

    In Christianity, “Zion” refers to heaven. I don’t believe in heaven, but according to your logic I must be anti-Christian.

    Unless non-Jews embrace all aspects of Judaism, all of their beliefs, religion, culture, customs, etc., they are anti-Semites? That would make all non-Jews racists.

    In addition, embracing the political Zionist movement of the late-19th century (or its 20th and 21st centuries’ equivalent) is the only way one can not be anti-Semitic?

    “Zion” may be an ancient Hebrew term but “Zionist” or “Zionism” are not, those are modern political terms. To link modern Zionism with the Hebrew term “Zion” from two millennia ago is no different than any other form of oppressive religious fundamentalism.

  • jeffe

    Michael really? Personal attack, well call it what you will. You post volumes ob how bad Israel is and should not exist as a state. So it’s not you posing these things?
    Should I respond to you in the third person?

    I don’t support the Israeli government but have a very different view of Israelis, at least the ones I know.
    You take things out of context and when it is pointed out to you you go off on people who question your motives.

    I’m not trying to shut you up. If I wanted do that I would ignore you, which is a better idea really. Because there is no arguing with you. You say that you have problems with the governments I mentioned but I have not seen much if any comments along the lines that you reserve for Israel. I brought up WW2 because of Helen Thomas’ diatribe. That you twisted the comment to make it seem like it means something other than I was alluding to. I’ll spell it out to you. The Jews can’t go back to Poland or Russia or Germany, get it. That was the context to my statement. I did not mean nor say it gave them permission to do whatever they want. Did I? No I did not. You post a huge amount of stuff here against Israel and when someone like me calls you one it you complain about personal attacks. You can’t have it both ways pal.

  • jeffe

    Brett I don’t subscribe to that idea that one can’t be critical of Zionist and Israel. That to me is a bad argument. However understanding where Zionism comes from and the history is important in context to the state of Israel. All the Israelis I know are not Zionist.

  • Lee

    If I “can’t be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic,” then please tell me what word I need in order to describe myself as opposed to Israel’s criminal and inhumane conduct. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

  • John

    Goodness- with a guest like Adelman, why allow discussion since he apparently knows it all! The topic was great but the show ruined by his boring, I-am-THE-authority views.

  • bp

    Why does it matter what happens to Israel? If there
    was no Israel, there would be no conflict in the Middle
    East. They took their land and were the original terrorists.

  • Brett

    jeffe,

    My comment was a response directed toward Dave W.’s comment. When you say, “understanding where Zionism comes from and the history is important in context to the state of Israel. All the Israelis I know are not Zionist.” To whom are you speaking? Who said all Israelis are Zionists? I didn’t. I don’t mean to insult your intelligence, but if I thought that, I WOULD be anti-Semitic! If I were to say that I would be saying anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are one and the same! That is sort of my point to Dave W. ;-)

    I also understand where fundamentalist Christianity comes from, does that mean I have to temper my views when someone cites Christian fundamentalism as justification for some unreasonable act? If I said I didn’t like American conservatism, would your response be that “not all Americans are conservatives, Brett”? Or that I need to understand the history of conservatism to see the context? Maybe you are just too wound up and perched for disagreement to have understood what I was saying? Whatever; you are arguing with something imagined.

  • Joan

    John , I agree Kenneth Adelman ruined the show and specifically
    because he used it to back list Iran by accusing it of supporting
    terrorism, Yet this is exactly what the US is doing today by its
    support for the militant state of Israel and arming it to the teeth
    with US weapons against the indigenous people of Palestine in
    violation of Federal laws and Human rights and international
    law.

    It is time for all US tax payers and citizens to consider withholding
    their taxes in protest and boyucotting Israeli and Zionist establish-
    ment and perhaps burning the Israeli flag as a symbol of this cor-
    rupt US relationship.

    The Palestinian people should have their country back and Jews that
    came before 1967 can be given the option to stay as Palestinians
    but not as Israelis…Joan

  • Brett

    “Goodness- with a guest like Adelman, why allow discussion since he apparently knows it all! The topic was great but the show ruined by his boring, I-am-THE-authority views.” -John

    Interestingly, Adelman has been historically dead wrong about so many things: He championed the war in Iraq, said he knew of no more astute and competent administration than Bush-Cheney, he thought Rumsfeld was a tactical military genius , he said absolutely that Saddam Hussein had WMD’s, he even said he knew precisely where they were and that we would find them quickly…on and on. When I listened to his condescending, admonishing, dismissive and feigned indignant tone toward both Tom and Steven Kinzer, I thought, “consider the source!”

  • Informed American

    This is all just another result of the failed Obama presidency.

  • cory

    On Point Producers,

    Please do as few shows involving Israel as possible. It makes for bad radio and worse posts. If ratings matter, my eyes glaze over at the prospect of more Israel bashers and defenders. -thanks.

  • Michael

    “Michael really? Personal attack, well call it what you will. You post volumes ob how bad Israel is and should not exist as a state”

    This is how disingenuous you are Jeffe, I wish for a secular israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.

    Again
    “I wish for a secular israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.”

    Again
    “I wish for a secular israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.”

    get the point yet

    “I don’t support the Israeli government but have a very different view of Israelis, ”

    I’m aware of your lack of response to blockading food to gaza, Gold-stone report, White P where the IDF denied it than admitting to it.

  • Brett

    Oh, no, Michael! Don’t use the word “secular” to describe some Jews, someone may want to cite one etymology of the word to mean non-sacred, even profane! I guess further evidence of your anti-Semitism! ;-)

  • david

    When the big dog on the block loses his teeth, he becomes all bark and no bite. He loses his influence and respect and then succombs to the influence of the new dogs on the block who bark and think they have teeth. This is what is happening to America, our teeth have been pulled, so when we bark, many are beginning to pay little attention.
    New sanctions were passed on Iran today, Turkey, Brazil voted against and Lebanon abstained.
    Iran’s little Hitler thumbed his nose at us.
    TIMES Square car bomb suspect Faisal Shahzad faced five terror charges last night, including trying to explode a weapon of mass destruction. May 2010
    What a difference a definition makes from now to back then.

  • Joe

    President Obama has shown outstanding leadership during this crisis. Thank God he is our President.

  • Michael

    Brett,

    lol, give them time.

    Cenk from TYT display my frustrations and presents my case. Barney Frank seems to Presents Jeffe’s case.

    American media at it’s best.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTcGmyIGKHY&feature=PlayList&p=A1D7C5D25BE12780&playnext_from=PL&index=1

  • MK Ultra

    Well, it’s about time that the world – and in particular the US – leave Israel to its own demise. If self-destruct is what they want, let them do it without US taxpayer dollars. Lord knows we can use those right here at home to help our own people. Let them sink or swim on their own and if the other ME countries attack and annihilitate it, well, it’s notas if they didn’t bring that upon themselves. I say good riddance to Israel!

    Boycott, divest & sanction!

  • GMG

    Mr. Adelman seems typical of the neocons – long on attitude, short on expertise, describing a complex world in the form of moralistic cartoons, and insulting those who disagree with them in the process.

  • Joshua Hendrickson

    Mr. Adelman saddens and infuriates me by holding up the Shah and the Mullahs in comparison and saying he prefers the Shah’s regime. Political tyranny is political tyranny. Once you have secret police and begin jailing, torturing and murdering your political opponents and the intellectuals, you have already become an evil regime. They may not be completely identical in degree but they certainly are in kind, and it’s a shameful thing to compare them. It’s not apples and oranges, it’s green apples and red apples.

  • jeffe

    One can be critical of the Israel, which seems to be the trendy thing these days, as it’s so easy. That they are Jews brings a another level into it. People are aware that they might be called anti-Semites when they are being critical of Jews because in some ways maybe they are. Brett yo can make a joke if it, but to Jews the joke is not funny.

    As I said context is everything. I think it’s fair to be very critical of the IDF and the right wing government now in power in Israel. However saying things like the Jews should go back to where they came from as Helen Thomas did and then agreeing with her, is another issue.

    You see I see a lot of people on this forum who definitely do not like Jews. People wont admit it but when they say things like “Jews think they are special” or that because of the Holocaust they have to act differently than anyone else, well from where I sit that kind of language has a subtext.

    What I see here is that every time this subject comes Michael posts about 4 or 5 or more long posts about how evil Israel is and how dare they exist and on and on. There is a pattern, and if you want to support this kind thing go ahead. But don’t expect people like me to sit hear and read this and not respond. It seems designed to have a one sided view.

    Michael you have issues with always wanting to be right about everything you post. As soon as someone challenges you cry “personal attack”.

    If your going to post as much as you do, do you not think it is safe to come to the conclusion that this is what you think? If not than why bother? You have an agenda but do not seem to want to take ownership of what you post. You come back with “I wish for a secular Israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.” Then you repeat it over again and so on.
    Ireland is a Catholic country, where is your scorn for them? How about Northern Ireland?

    A few days ago an American border guard shot and killed an Mexican youth who was throwing rocks. Sound familiar. and yet I don’t see you posting huge volumes to prove how the US should get out of the South West. I don’t see anyone here saying America is a failed state. By the way this is a common incident at the border.

  • jeffe

    Michael I never said anything like Frank said.

    Do not put words into my mouth. You are a being hypercritical are you not. First you complain about personal attacks and now you say I agree with Barney Frank just because we are both Jews. Now you show your true colors. Game is over pal.

  • Michael

    “Do not put words into my mouth. You are a being hypercritical are you not. First you complain about personal attacks and now you say I agree with Barney Frank just because we are both Jews”

    Both disingenuous and dishonest

    “You see I see a lot of people on this forum who definitely do not like Jews. People wont admit it but when they say things like “Jews think they are special” ”

    There have been countless guess stating on NPR, and ONpoint that Jews are special compare to non-jews(David Gelernter did just that)are u really going to say otherwise.

    David Gelernter
    http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/12/david-gelernter

    never said that if this is what you believe than in your logic i must be Turkish, so quick to pull the race card when your wrong, Frank made similar claim as yourself, about everything on this thread. I would love to compare you to Norm Chomsky but you nothing close to that level nor thinking.

    Again Disingenuous
    “What I see here is that every time this subject comes Michael posts about 4 or 5 or more long posts about how evil Israel is and “”how dare they exist and on and on. “”

    Ok Jeffe i guess you didn’t get the previous post or choose to ignore it. Making stuff up are we now.

    Here goes

    “Again
    “I wish for a secular israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.”

    Again
    “I wish for a secular israel not one of Jewish apartheid toward its minorities.”

    get the point yet”

    If your so offended than maybe you should relax from the web for awhile and come back when your a tad bit mature to debate.

    So what if i post what israel has done bad, the FACT is they have done Bad things, it’s not made up its the truth, and i clearly diverge my sources.I missed the part where you channledge others who made fun of the deaths of the activist, who made fun and dismissed the treatment of gazans oh wait there for israel i forgot. :) right

    I could say every time BP comes up you have mutiple post maybe your anti Brit anti UK or health-care or obama but that would be using your logic on things.

    Aren’t you a Professor cause i’m sure running to the personal attacks makes a person look weak in debating.Hench i proved not once you intentionally misrepresented my words, must really piss you off causing a lapses of judgment and a desperation to attack me on anything you can think of.

    Maybe it’s that you deep down believe that what the israeli government is doing it just and can’t stand to see that just maybe it’s wrong and immoral behavior and that’s why you can’t stand hearing anything bad about israel.

    You may choose to look away that what there doing but i’m not.

  • Michael

    “A few days ago an American border guard shot and killed an Mexican youth who was throwing rocks. Sound familiar. and yet I don’t see you posting huge volumes to prove how the US should get out of the South West. I don’t see anyone here saying America is a failed state. By the way this is a common incident at the border.”

    Yawn the typical straw-man argument to distract and change the subject. I know you wish me to follow your rules of naming off 15 countries before criticizing israel, I call out your personal attacks cause that what there are, if your’ll getting all worked up about it than i could always use third person. Health Care is expensive here don’t need any one stressing out from the web. :)

    I’m sure if the U.S. was occupying parts of Mexico disallowing Mexicans to uses there own roads and water and making one race only settlements there excepting Mexicans you would hear more from me don’t worry.

    Yet again dishonest
    “I don’t see anyone here saying America is a failed state”

    Have you heard “informed citizen” daily statements, or Davids? of course you have, yet again (didn’t you say context is everything)

    I notice you like to choose to put words in others mouths and don’t like it when it happens to you.(what a shocker there) You fall back to what many of the Palin type crowd does, can’t attack the points so either attack the person or make things up or in your words(put words in other peoples mouth)

    Is it that you don’t want a secular state in israel? The reason i say Jewish apartheid cause that what it is. Hate to break it to you but if you have a democracy solely i mean solely based on one religion and one racial group maintaining a majority of the country the laws are bound to be discriminatory and racist towards its minorities. Of course you failed to answer my question on what will happen when israel has a 40 or 50% non Jewish population there? What do tell will a Jewish state do when it’s on the brick of becoming a minority in it’s own state? I’m sure a secular democracy would fair far better with a case like this. Far better than Likud would and since the country is moving farther to the right even Likud will be considered to liberal for israel.

  • jeffe

    Really Michael straw man, really.

    As in regards to Jews in Poland and riots against them, I recall this happens to other minority groups around the world as well, But it seems that the people abused are doing the same thing you just listed to the Palestine’s Arabs now. Posted by to counter my comments about Helen Thomas. I would call this a straw man argument, by your definition. Yawn, I can find more but what’s the point.

    I love this comment: it’s pretty offensive to me, but hey I’m now putting words into your mouth. Sorry. But wait are you not doing this to this person?

    I thought the attempt was to get as many jews to come to israel by zionist? this could clearly have played a role in many jews going to israel, often illegally.

    I missed the campaign to help jews go back to there country, but i didn’t miss the campaign to get jews out of other countries with both Israeli and U.S. tax dollars. hmmm are you commenting or putting words into her mouth? Straw man argument as well perhaps? U.S. tax dollars? We all pay taxes and do not have control over were every dollar goes.

    Michael this forum is filled with you putting words into other peoples mouths it seems to me. As for personal attacks on the comments made by others you seem pretty good at dishing it out. Oh wait it’s only a personal attack when it does not meet your criteria.

    What’s this? Far from the same, the worst thing to do to a Zionist or blind supporter of israel is present them with facts, evidences they cannot/ very hard to refute. A personal attack me thinks…

    Here’s my comment again: “Bottom line Michael is that you think Israel should not exist because it fits your world view. That’s fine” Hmmm let me see here I guess it is personal as I’m addressing you, but it’s not an attack in the sense that I’m not insulting you. I’m merely stating what I perceive to be your viewpoint on Israel which is backed up by countless comments to that lead me to believe this is what you think.

    Oh and your comments about Jews thinking they are superior to other races, I tried to find that and all I came up with was a lot neo-nazi web sites and some quotes attributed to Menachem Begin that do not have any proof of being true.

    Your over simplification of Zionism is also off base and misleading.
    Zionism did not have a uniform ideology, but a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, National-Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, etc. Shimoni (1995) shows that there existed among the parties a common denominator: the claim to Eretz Israel as the national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for the national self-determination of the Jews.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

    I’ll answer your question. I have no idea what will happen if 50% or more of the population of Israel is not Jewish.

  • Dmitry

    I suppose 19 Saudi Arabians blowing up WTC and killing over 3,000 Americans was not enough. Now we need a more powerful “ally” like Iran. Let them send thousands jihadist with capability to destroy something more substantial. Who needs Israeli Hi-Tech, Jewish doctors and physicist? Lets replace them with Koran and sharia law.

  • Michael

    lol

    Yet again disingenuous

    Now I’m a neo nazi lol, not like i didn’t link my source yet again, David G.

    Jew conscious of his distinct Jewishness, in order to make him want to immigrate and go to Palestine, in order to make him want not to assimilate and not to be integrated, anti-Semitism must be perpetuated. Zionism not only believes in the reality and eternity of anti-Semitism, but also in the need for anti-Semitism, for without it the Jew would be likely to lose his identity through assimilation.

    It follows that where there is no anti-Semitism, the memories of past anti-Semitism must be recreated. According to Ben Gurion, that is why the Eichmann Trial was made, so that a generation which did not live with the experiences of Nazis would be able to know what the Nazis did to the Jews. If anti-Semitism does not exist, any slight hint of hatred to the Jew must be magnified into an international conspiracy. If anti-Semitism does not exist it must be simulated, as in Baghdad in the late 40s and early 50s when Zionist agents led Jews to believe that there was a conspiracy in order to expedite and accelerate their mass exodus.

    Where anti-Semitism does not exist it must be, if need be, generated. The Zionists say, let us pretend, let us claim that any opposition to Zionism, any criticism of Israel, is anti-Semitism, directed at the entire Jewish people in order to make all Jews feel insecure. This was precisely the Zionist response to the U.N. Resolution. The moment the Resolu­tion was adopted it was declared to be a declaration of war by the United Nations against the Jewish people and against Judaism. In full-page ads in the United States, Canada and in some places in Western Europe, the Zionist movement told Jews all over the world: “This Resolution is not against Zionism only, it is against the Jewish people, and against Judaism, because there is no distinction [the ad said] between Zionism, Judaism and world Jewry.” The ultimate purpose is to keep the fear of self-determination alive in the heart of Jewry, because without it Zionism has no viability.

    Names to follow

  • Michael

    Rabbi Mendel Schneerson, – “We have a case of the Jew…a totally different species.”

    “The body of a Jewish person,” Schneerson bragged, “is of a totally different quality from the body of members of all other nations of the world. Bodies of the Gentiles are in vain. An even greater difference is in regard to the soul…A non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness.”

    Elie Wiesel-. “Everything about us is different,”"Jews are ontologically exceptional.”

    Jewish law states No Mixed Marriages for Jews and Non Jews. srael does not sanction or allow mixed marriages (The Jerusalem Report, October 20, 1994, p.26). In the U.S.A.,

    “israeli Yeshiva (school) students often demonstrate and chant, “Death to the Arabs.” Defending their extreme behavior, Rabbi Ido Elba explains, “According to the Talmud (Jewish book of traditions), one may kill any Gentile.” Rabbi Schlomo Aviner adds that normal human codes and laws of justice and righteousness do not apply to the Jews.

  • Michael

    Zionism=Racism

    When the State of Israel came into existence, it included a mainly Arab minority, now about one million people. Historically Zionism has never recognised any ‘national minority’ within the nation, the status of (for instance) the Frisians within the modern Dutch nation. For Zionists, the Jewish people is the Jewish nation: Zionism is a mono-ethnic nationalism comparable to Irish nationalism. The present State of Israel generally has the constitutional structure of a secular nation state. It has conceded citizenship to the ‘Israeli Arabs’, although many will identify themselves as ‘Palestinians’. However there is no tradition in Zionism which sees this group (‘Arabs’ or ‘Palestinians’) as a constituent minority of the Jewish people. Although many Zionists claimed the territory where Yasir Arafat lived, no Zionist ever saw him as a Jew.

    There is also no nationalist movement to establish a bi-national state on the former mandate territory of Palestine. Zionism is not such a movement, and the State of Israel does not claim to be a bi-national state. In this respect, Zionism is comparable to Czech nationalism or Slovak nationalism – not to Czechoslovak nationalism.. No Zionists call themselves Palestino-Jews or Judaeo-Palestinians. The State is called Israel, not Filastino-Israel or Israelo-Filastina

    Within this framework, which includes contradictory ideas about Israeli citizenship, the four racist characteristics can be identified.

    Firstly, the Zionist movement historically made a claim to territory on behalf of ‘the Jewish people’, an exclusive geopolitical claim. It claimed that individual Jews had a right to residence in that territory, which did not apply to randomly selected non-Jews outside that territory. None of the early Zionists advocated the ethnic cleansing, which in fact preceded the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 – but none of them believed that non-Jews had a right to the Jewish homeland either. Zionists attribute a superior quality to Jews, namely the exclusive right to the Jewish national territory. The State of Israel, by definition, claims Israeli territory for Israeli’s. It attributes a superior quality to Israeli’s, although paradoxically that includes the Arab minority with Israeli citizenship. However, the State of Israel is not ‘Israelist’ – in the sense of consistently presenting these claims for both its Jewish and Arab citizens. In official pronouncements, such as its defensive speech to the Durban anti-racism conference, Israel continues to claim state legitimacy as the national homeland for the ‘Jewish people’. It is therefore not correct to say, that in Israel Jewish diaspora nationalism has been succeeded by Israeli nationalism. The legitimising ideology of Israel is still largely Zionism, and not ‘Israelism’.

    Secondly, Zionism attributes an inferior status to members of non-Jewish ethno-national groups: that they lack the absolute right to residence in the Jewish homeland, and to citizenship of a Jewish nation state. The State of Israel confers no right of residence or citizenship on persons born outside Israel, unless they have specific links to Israel, to the Jewish people, or to Judaism. That excludes about 99% of the world population. The only exception to the general pattern of nationalist exclusion is, that the State of Israel extends citizenship to the historically resident Arab minority. However, some groups in Israel dispute even their right to residence, and propose their expulsion as part of a ‘peace settlement’ – together with the expulsion of Palestinians from all or part of the occupied territories. According to a 2003 opinion poll in Israel (Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies), 31% now support the expulsion of the Arab minority, and 46% support clearance of the territories.

    The most obvious exclusion, which was not foreseen by the early Zionists, is the status of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Theodor Herzl never imagined that a Jewish state would be an occupying power, and therefore the de facto government, for a large non-Jewish population. In addition, about three million people belong to the clearly identifiable ‘Palestinian-refugee’ minorities, in other Arab countries, although most were born in their present country of residence. The State of Israel clearly attributes an inferior status to this population: namely that they do not possess the right to Israeli citizenship. This population is generally equivalent to the ‘Palestinian people’ in the occupied territories, although it includes small non-Jewish, non-Arab minorities. The members of this population, (primarily Palestinian), can not vote, for instance, and if they did all vote in Israeli elections, it would mean the end of the State of Israel. Again it is true that all nation states operate this exclusion, and none of them extend citizenship to everyone, certainly not to hostile populations. That does not make such policies any less racist, since the exclusions are by definition on ethnic or national grounds.

    That would not matter so much, if Israeli borders were open to all immigrants: but they are not, and this is the third racist characteristic of Zionism. Israel has one of the highest immigration rates in history, but immigration policy has always been restrictive. Although Israel grants citizenship to the resident Arab minority, it does not permit Arab immigration, even by former residents of its territory. Only those who stayed in their villages in 1948 got Israeli citizenship: those who crossed the front line to the Arab side can not get back – not as a citizen, and probably not as a visitor. Other Arabs, who have no connection with Palestine, can not simply migrate to Israel, nor can most of the world’s population. Israeli immigration is essentially for Jews only, and this is the most obviously racist policy of present Zionism. In this case, the State of Israel has a formal and explicit policy of Jewish immigration, which is clearly Zionist. It is the logical consequence of the original Zionist demand for a Jewish state formed by migration, meaning migration of Jews.

    In one respect Israeli policy differs from most national immigration policies: citizenship can be indirectly acquired on religious grounds. A person who converts to Judaism can be a Jew in the sense of the Israeli Law of Return, if the conversion is accepted as valid by religious authorities in Israel. The convert can then go to Israel (entry can not be legally refused), and can claim Israeli nationality and citizenship. Sometimes this is quoted by Israel’s supporters, to show Israel is not racist. In theory, all the inhabitants of the Palestinian territories can sincerely convert to Judaism tomorrow, and on acceptance of their conversion move to Israel. – where they will all presumably live as good and prosperous Israeli citizens. In practice this is absurdly unlikely. And the question is: why should they have to convert to Judaism, when native-born atheist or Buddhist Israelis can still be part of the Jewish people?

    This is the fourth racist characteristic, equally present in the state policies of Israel and present Zionist belief. It was not very relevant for the early Zionists, who were too far from a Jewish state to think about its future citizenship policy. Nevertheless, it was predictable even at the time Herzl wrote, on the basis of the general characteristics of European nation states (and of the Austro-Hungarian empire where he lived). The child of an Israeli citizen mother and and Israeli citizen father is an Israeli citizen. (I am not sure if this applies to the children of Israeli Arabs, born in the occupied territories). The child acquires this privilege without effort: no application under the Law of Return, no conversion to Judaism, no other qualification for citizenship. The child simply acquires the rights (and duties) of an Israeli citizen through unconscious biological process. The child without this biological advantage (birth, or parentage, or genetic material) does not automatically acquire citizenship. Life in Israel is not always pleasant, and many western Jews hesitate to emigrate there, but within the region an Israeli-born child has the advantage. The child born to Israeli settlers in central Hebron will statistically live longer, be better educated, and have a higher standard of living, then the Palestinian child born in an adjoining house. This advantage is part of the general advantage of being born in a rich country, which about one-fifth of the world’s population share.

    In citizenship and immigration issues, biology determines fate. Not inevitably, but because nation states are structured that way. There is no inherent moral reason why states should limit immigration, or residence, or citizenship, simply on grounds of birth. In fact, it is hard to think of any moral justification for it. It is clearly racist in the general sense of the word, and its derivation from the ideology of nationalism indicates the racist origins of that ideology. The nationalism underlying the nation state Israel, which is accurately called Zionism, is no different in this respect. Here too, Zionism is racist.

    http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/zionism.html

  • Michael

    All one has to do is to go read the statements of the Zionist pioneers about Palestine–they blatantly believed that they had a racially superior right to the land and their statements were definitely racist.

    Here are but a FEW!!!:

    Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25,1982:

    “[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”

    David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
    From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978:

    “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

    Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department.

    From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5:

    “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”

    Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, “Complete Diaries,” June 12, 1895 entry.:

    “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.”

    Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, head of the Kever Yossev Yeshiva (school of Talmud) in Nablus stated:

    “The blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable.”

    Yitzhak Ginsburg, “Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged”:

    “The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it.”

    In 1923, radical Zionist Ze’ev Jabotinsky– spiritual father of not only of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin but of Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane– wrote:

    the “sole way” for Jews to deal with Arabs in Palestine was through “total avoidance of all attempts to arrive at a settlement”-which Jabotinsky euphemistically termed the “iron wall” approach. Not coincidentally, a picture of Jabotinsky graces Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s desk. Source: The Village Voice, “Death Wish in the Holy Land,” Dec. 12, 2001.

    The influential Israeli Rabbi Ovadia Yosef exclaimed during a sermon preceding the 2001 Passover holiday, :

    “May the Holy Name visit retribution on the
    Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them.” He added: “It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones.” — Source: Ha’aretz April 12, 2001.

    Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969:

    “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, ‘What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’”

    David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson,
    1978, p. 99:

    “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”

    Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, ‘Begin and the “Beasts”‘, New Statesman, 25 June 1982:

    “We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return.”

    Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet:

    “We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters.”

    David Goldman wrote:

    “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.”

    Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir’s infamous quote:

    “There is no such thing as a Palestinian.”

    Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998:

    “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”

    Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum”:

    “If I was an Arab leader I would never make [peace] with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country.”

    And finally:

    Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha’aretz):

    “The Intifada is the Palestinian’s people’s war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime.”

    Ehud Barak, on Israeli TV (date undetermined, but confirmed by former Israeli Knesset Member Marsha Friedman):

    “If I were a Palestinian, I would be a terrorist.”

    (Speaking about Sharon’s policies toward the Palestinians.)

    Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel (date undetermined, in an Israeli cabinet meeting):

    Don’t worry, we [Israel] control the United States.

    (In response to concerns raised by another cabinet member about Sharon’s ["the butcher of Beirut"] invasion and brutality in the West Bank.)

    http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2003/02/11/15727361.php

    I understand what Zionism is and its not peace, if you don’t than it’s you problem not mine.

  • Michael

    Some Racist statements by main Israeli and Zionist figures

    * “The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”…. Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time – August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000.

    * ” (The Palestinians are) beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

    * “The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988.

    * “When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

    * “How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

    * “There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.

    * “The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war.” Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha’aretz, 19 March 1972.

    * Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

    * “We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces – Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

    * “We must do everything to ensure they (the Palestinian refugees) never do return” David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar’s Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

    * “We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai.” David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

    * “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum.”

    * “Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist… There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

    * “We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!’” Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

    * Rabin’s description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. “We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters” Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion’s special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From “The Arabs in Israel” by Sabri Jiryas.

    * “There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. [I] tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:…the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish…with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary.” Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

    * “Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours… Everything we don’t grab will go to them.” Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

    * “It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.” Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

    * “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment… Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
    * “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.” — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 (Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1).

    * “We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not…You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world.” (Chaim Weizmann, Published in “Judische Rundschau,” No. 4, 1920).

    Arie Dayan: “The Debate over Zionism and Racism: An Israeli View”; Haaretz, 27 December 1991; translated in Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 22, No. 3. (Spring, 1993), pp. 96-105.
    Michael Adams: “Israel’s Treatment of the Arabs in the Occupied Territories”; Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 6, No. 2. (Winter, 1977), pp. 19-40.
    Janice J. Terry: “Zionist Attitudes toward Arabs; Journal of Palestine Studies”, Vol. 6, No. 1. (Autumn, 1976), pp. 67-78.
    Roselle Tekiner: “Race and the Issue of National Identity in Israel”; International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 23, No. 1. (Feb., 1991), pp. 39-55.

    Right of return

    The Israeli law of the right of return which, despite Israel’s otherwise restrictive immigration policies, grant every Jew in the world the right to settle in Israel. This is especially agitating for the Palestinian refugees, who were expeled from their lands that is modern Israel, but are denied their right to return.

    The Article 11 of the UN General Assembly Resolution 194, “resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property…”. Like many other resolutions by UN, Israel still refuse to comply with this resolution.

    http://www.rense.com/general77/disturb.htm

    Since you never read or heard of such i presented you will it.

    Dishonest are we now Jeffe.

  • Michael

    See Brett he even managed to turn Secular into Anti-Semite, and nevered answered the question about Hoe of course a state based on one relgion and one race wouldn’t be able to not discriminate against. Jeffe your ad hominem attacks are weak at best and expose yourself to the level i thought you were smarter than that yet atleast that this is not the case. Neo Nazi lol never been called that. (of course indirectly) lol i presented the information and your dishonesty so i farther do not need to write back to you since it’s a waste of both mine and your time since of course by your writing the truth is something that evades your thinking in regards to israel.

    Have a good day and try not to stress yourself out to much. :)

  • Dima

    Hey, Michael The Clown, stop copy-pasting and just post the link to the source of ALL your quotations – a a poorly concocted and designed, but venomously anti-Semitic website http://www.holywar.org/
    Don’t be embarrassed! Let the people know who and what you are.

  • Brett

    “Brett yo can make a joke if it, but to Jews the joke is not funny.”
    -jeffe

    I think that is quite enough self-righteous finger wagging, jeffe. I was responding to the fact that Dave W. used an etymological root of a word–which means something very different than the modern political phrase–to back door an accusation of anti-Semitism. He was grabbing at straws, just as you are grabbing at straws. If the joke to Michael was about anything, it was about that. Do you get that? Your level of either misinterpretation/opportunistic sanctimoniousness is astounding. You incessantly sound the broken record of “context” yet you understood neither the context of my comment to Dave W. nor to Michael. Besides, those two comments had nothing to do with any of your comments, and they weren’t addressed to you.

    Also, in your 11:36pm comment where you seem to want to chastise various people who’ve commented here, and by doing so without using “context” or saying specifically who said what, you lump different commenters together as one, which gives the appearance that one commenter said something which another actually said. That is such a tawdry way of pointing fingers, and that particular post of yours is a tirade.

    I never said I agreed with Michael’s posts; I will say, though, he seems to substantiate most of his comments with links and citations of some form. I don’t necessarily disagree with his comments, I just think he is presenting only one aspect of Israel, which sometimes can paint an incomplete picture. But, he doesn’t have to present all sides of an opinion to present a valid comment; he doesn’t have to, say, present three bad things Israel did then present three bad things Palestinians did, and so on.

    I do think your accusation toward him of anti-Semitism is uncalled for.

  • Lee

    I found Michael’s “Zionism = Racism” post most informative and even compelling. I have a personal recollection that seems to square with that analysis. One of my in-laws played professional basketball in Israel sometime in the 1980s and 1990s. They used to joke about how a rabbi in New York falsified a document to claim the player was of Jewish origin. He actually is Scottish and German. (The rabbi was said to have received some financial consideration for his service.) I suppose even an Arab or a Muslim could have passed such a “test of Jewishness” if it served Israel’s interest.

  • Sandra

    When Turkey was drawing up it’s final borders and constitution, after the war ended in 1922, it should be noted that a provision was put in to ensure that anyone who ended up living within Turkey’s border was considered to be a Turkish Citizen. That included Kurds among many other groups that were once part of the Ottoman Empire. The Kurds have always been considered by Turkey to be Turks. The Kurds who relocated to outside of Turkey or who were outside of the borders once the lines were drawn are the ones who are calling for a separate Kurdish state from Turkey. However, they live in Northern Iraq. They are asking for this state from the wrong country. If they had stayed in Turkey, they would be Turks of Kurdish descent and they would be free to make a life for themselves as any other Turk.

    Israel on the other hand has pushed all Palestinians to a couple of small settlements in Israel and has not provided them with the same freedoms as Israelis. They are not free to leave their Israeli induced “Ghetto” and make a life for themselves. Even before the Israeli sanctions were imposed three years ago, they were not free from suspicion nor were they allowed equality. If any people are oppressed for any period of time, they will fight back if they can. If freedom is allowed, the majority of those people will have nothing to fight for and will blend into that society.

    Even after 30 years of PKK terrorist actions within it’s borders, Turkey does not separate the Kurds to a tiny little strip of land and hold them prisoner there. Nor do they inspect every Kurd walking the streets of Turkey. Again, the Kurds within the Turkish Borders are the same as any Turkish Citizen because they are Turkish Citizens.

  • Elaine Meyrial

    Rabbi Henry Siegman, former executive head of the United Jewish Congress, has written extensively about the need for the US and Israel to enter into discussions with the leaders of Hamas, the Palestinian resistance organization that won a free and transparent election against Abbas’s Fatah. Rabbi Siegman pointed out the Christian Palestinians and secularists also voted for Hamas as a means of rejecting the corruption and lack of accountability demonstrated by Fatah.

  • John Kaya

    I was very disappointed listening the show. Knowing Turkey very well and observing the changes that been happening in the region and globally in the last decades, listening the guests was litening a group of people from world war one era or the cold war. It seems like very few people like the writer of the book understand the global changes. I want to note the blames agains Turkey regarding Armenian Genocide during Ottoman Emprire, how Turkey is still occupying Northern Cyprus, minority rights and Turkey’s Islamic background. Despite all these three, I think many people are missing the point. Turkey is a rapidly growing economy with young, educated population, the economy is export based, secular, democracy and the most of the country’s population is muslim. Not everything is perfect in Western standards but hey, isnt it the reason we call them “developing countries”?!? Instead of recommending newly democracy Iraq…which we will see how that is going to work…dont we realize Turkey is a big asset for the West? In the last decade, Turkey understands its role in the region and in the world and playing a more active political game. This not only increases Turkey’s value but also European Union’s if Middle East is the influencial area of Turkey. I dont think many people see this and most are still caught with post world war one or cold war talks. World is not a one poled arena anymore. Developing countries do have the same rights as others, despite their background, religion or region. West can choose to ignore and discrminate, or embrace. So far, nothing but ignoring and discrimination! And for Turkey, discriminating the Turks because of their religion! How about human rights in EU or US at that point?! Is it only for Christian Europeans or Americans?!? :-)

    Oh of course it is easier to be an allie with Saudis. US orders, Saudis do! Do you call that a partnership?!?!? :-) Maybe it is time to listen some of the friendly voices in the Middle East so we can find peace there finally!

  • John Kaya

    Armenian genocide issue is a hot topic lately. There are shows on tv how Armenians were killed during the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in late 1800s or early 1900s. True but that is only one side of the story. How about the Muslims in Europe? Balkans were under Ottoman Empire for 400 years. How come 3 million Muslims disappeared when Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece gained independence in late 1800s and early 1900s? What happened to them? Where are the left over mosques? How come only some Muslims left in Yugoslavia? And even what is happening to them today?!? Why dont we talk about that and make a show on TV or radio?!? Isnt it better so we hear both sides of the story?!? Why not?

  • jeffe

    Brett I here you and I do apologize for misunderstanding.
    My comments towards Michael are more based on the fact that he does what he is accusing me of, getting personal.
    So if I post a a lot on Arabs, with a lot of links that point to one side of the argument that makes it valid?

    He does post a lot on this subject, I get it he does not like Israel. I never said he was an anti-Semite but I did say he was sounding like one on some occasions. I also never said anything about the word secular = anti-Semite in context to Israel. Does this apply to Ireland or Saudi Arabia?

    Dishonest are we now Jeffe. How am I dishonest?
    Does this count as a personal attack Michael? Please let me know as I am confused by your definition of it.
    Again it seems to me that when someone challenges your posts you say it’s a personal attack. Brett you see this kind of comment as a tirade for some reason, or that’s my impression. Did I ever say anything about Zionist one way or the other? Not to my knowledge. I don’t support it myself. I’m not a zionist and not even religious.

    Also Michael I never called you a neo-nazi. I just said that the wording you used, the way you said it had overtones of this kind of ideology. I should have written that with more care. I do not think you are a neo-nazi. I do think you have a lot of issues with Israel which is your right. As I have said I think post a lot stuff to support your argument that is from the right wing parties in Israel. Israel is not a country full of right wing zealots. Unfortunately they control the country right now.

    I do agree it is pointless arguing with you as you have made up your mind.

    I do have one question for you to ponder. After WW2 what were the Jews supposed to do? What would you have done?

    Right or wrong all the people in your posts had their identity and political zeitgeist formed by the events of WW2. Not one country wanted to lift a hand to help Jews in Europe. So they took matters into their own hands.

    I’m not stressing out by the way. I find some of your comments and posts to be infuriating and interesting at the same time. Contrary to your belief, some of them I agree with, most I do not.

    Have you ever read Maclom X he calls white people devils.

  • Michael

    jeffe,

    side note,
    i recall reading that after Maclom X converted to islam and went to mecca and prayed with not only arabs but whites he changed his tune and started going the peaceful way and was shot and killed for it.

    for the sake of keeping it civil, would you say the U.S. News has a balanced approach towards both sides of the conflict? If yes, than how is it so many U.S. politicians, and Journalist/Reporters often never/rarley call out Israel for lying? If no why should i not post or point out what the U.S. news seems to be leaving out.

    Check if you like on this post and others many post that, any pally killed is somehow a terrorist, that if a protester(mine you peaceful) is killed it was there fault, the Blockade is only stopping weapons from getting in (except for the fact it had items such as sweets, fresh food and things that had nothing to do with weapons on it) plus the fact that the Israeli government was taken to court to release the list of banned items.

    Others state there no problems in gaza in regards to food and people getting the aid, but both A.I. along with B’Tselem reports otherwise, this is in regards to not just food but even water, this includes the west bank as well who BTW are run by the moderate Fatah government.

    Nor does the news mention after democratically fair elections both israel and the U.S. pushed for Fatah to overthrow Hamas leading to killing and a cleaning house in the West Bank and Gaza, also what many fail or don’t know is that Hamas offered in 2004 to except israel right to exist if it returned to it’s 1967 borders and Israel turned it down, cause it wanted hamas to state that israel right to exist as solely a Jewish state(in-turn denying the right of return for pallies)and giving up any claim to land. I mention Jewish State as opposed to Secular cause the first will have to clearly deny the rights of it’s minorities to keep its majority and power in the hands of one group compare to the second.

  • Michael

    As regards to my posting being long it saves me the time of posting the link and the quotes that the person is clearly and often denies that are true and me going back and taking such quote and such link.

    Such as maureen’s video
    Is clearly not reality there, so i posted the stat’s and figures disproving such. This is often repeated in the News even when it’s clearly false.

    Than we have laura video,
    Clearly you can see the edited in the video and if the raid on the ship lasted 90 minutes than say 2 minutes video the IDF posted is only about 2 to 3% of the total event.

    Or the comments that to be Anti-Zion(which is a political) to Anti-Jew or Anti-Semite. Or Anti Israel is Anti-Semite.This is clearly done to stop any debate or criticism and is often almost nearly done on Many U.S. News stations, and radio shows.

    Or the statements by both Israel and the U.S. officials they have the right to Attack Iran if they feel threaten that russia should not sell S300 Missles to Iran cause they may be able to protect themselves. Nor say if Iran says it has the right to attack israel and Russia backing them up cause iran feels threaten by Israel and that the U.S. selling missles to israel to protect itself is wrong and would make it harder for Israel to defend itself.

    What do tell do you think the outcry would be on this one.?

    I listen to Alan Dershowitz debate with a moderate Jew by the name of Peter Beinart. Dershowitz pretty much stated any criticism of israel is declaring war on Jews worldwide and he is not the only one that present this on the U.S. news.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127501647

    A news source that coverage this in the least biased way is the BBC, who does actually ask tough questions and actually does far more reporting into it than the U.S. does so to counter this, 3 sites where started BBCwatch.com CARAMA.org and Honesty reporting.com to have balanced(so they say) reporting in the middle east but is clearly nothing close to what they claim.

    And posters on here often use this as somehow proof.
    here the rundown of how CARAMA works

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=CAMERA

    “In April 2008, the website Electronic Intifada published emails sent to a group of CAMERA members organized to impact the online encyclopedia Wikipedia’s coverage of Israel and Palestine issues. Electronic Intifada claimed that in the emails, CAMERA Senior Research Analyst Gilead Ini stressed the effort should be secret, and counseled members to avoid “picking a user name that marks you as pro-Israel, or that lets people know your real name.” Wikipedia, too, tells users: “You should strongly consider choosing a username that is not connected to you.” He also instructed members to “always log in” under their user names, so that Wikipedia would not “record your computer’s IP address.”[2] While directing CAMERA members to certain articles on Israel and Palestine, Ini cautioned that new Wikipedia users should “avoid editing Israel-related articles for a short period of time,” so as not to develop reputations as “one-topic editors.” [3]“

  • Michael

    Here is how Honesty Honesty reporting really is

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/robert–fisk-the-internet-threat-to-truly-honest-reporting-686255.html

    “But honestreporting.com’s methods are themselves revealing. In one “communiqué”, it manages to quote my 1982 description of a Palestinian woman’s face as that of a Madonna and a Lebanese friend’s (described by the outfit as a Palestinian) weeping at the departure of the PLO from Beirut. What they don’t mention is that they were weeping because they feared that in the absence of Palestinian fighters, they would be massacred by Israel’s brutal Lebanese allies ­ which is exactly what happened a few days later.

    Then it quotes from my article of 17 April this year, in which I remarked that some Israeli leaders had been “bestializing” [sic] Arabs, referring to my account of how Palestinian taxi drivers are humiliated as they approach Israeli checkpoints on Arab land. But honestreporting.com ­ and the “honest” bit is a joke in itself ­ didn’t mention that the quotes come from two different articles. The “bestialisation” story referred to Israeli leaders who had at various times called Palestinians “serpents”, “two-legged beasts”, “cockroaches in a glass jar”, and “crocodiles”. Of course, honestreporting.com erased all mention of that in its “communiqué”.”

    Now in regards to Israel going to the right, FM Avigdor Lieberman party is growing not shrinking and his base much like Likud party state they are revisionist Zionist,meaning they wish for all of the land israel had 3k years ago,who clearly state there can be no Palestinian statehood, the whole of Jerusalem will be under Israeli control. he also stated that if Palestinians do become a state the should trade the minority arab Israeli for Jewish only settlements, while the gazan war was going on called for execution of anyone against israel actions and brought up on Treason charges. Much like the radicals saying death to America and his party supporters can be seen screaming death to Arabs. His party also attempted to ban Arab parites in israel as well. Actually banning 2 in 2009.

    According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done “little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country’s Arab citizens.

    just one example

    “Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF’s statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding.”"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

    Remember this is from Israel #1 ally. Yet we still hear from some poster how well the arabs are treated in israel and that there is no Discrimination.

  • Michael

    Now before you read this remember this is a democrtic supposed Westernized Country. And think back that it’s was in the 1940 that the U.S. had such racist polices

    ” Opposition to intermarriage

    Intermarriage is prohibited by Jewish law.[198] In the case of mixed Arab-Jewish marriages, emotions run especially high. A 2007 opinion survey found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage was equivalent to “national treason”. A group of Jewish men in Pisgat Zeev have started patrolling the town to stop Jewish women from dating Arab men. The municipality of Petah Tikva has also announced an initiative to prevent interracial relationships, providing a telephone hotline for friends and family to report Jewish girls who date Arab men as well as psychologists to provide counselling. The town of Kiryat Gat launched a school programme in schools to warn Jewish girls against dating local Bedouin men.[199][200]

    In February 2010 Maariv reported that the Tel Aviv municipality has instituted an official, government-sponsored counselling program to discourage Jewish-Arab dating. The anti-missionary group Yad L’Achim has performed army-style “rescue operations” of Jewish women from their Gentile husbands.["

    The Center Against Racism, showed unexpectedly negative attitudes towards Arabs, based on questions asked to 500 Jewish residents of Israel representing all levels of Jewish society.

    The poll found that: 63% of Jews believe Arabs are a security threat; 68% of Jews would refuse to live in the same building as an Arab; 34% of Jews believe that Arab culture is inferior to Israeli culture. Additionally, support for segregation between Jewish and Arab citizens was found to be higher among Jews of Middle Eastern origin than those of European origin.[210] A more recent poll by the Center Against Racism (2008) found a worsening of Jewish citizens’ perceptions of their Arab counterparts:

    * 75% would not agree to live in a building with Arab residents.
    * More than 60% wouldn’t accept any Arab visitors at their homes.
    * About 40% believed that Arabs should be stripped of the right to vote.
    * More than 50% agree that the State should encourage emigration of Arab citizens to other countries
    * More than 59% think that the culture of Arabs is a primitive culture.
    * When asked “What do you feel when you hear people speaking Arabic?” 31% said they feel hate and 50% said they feel fear, with only 19% stating positive or neutral feelings.[211]

    same link from above.

    nor for news coverage

    “In December 2001, FAIR’s Seth Ackerman discussed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict “Illusion of Balance” along with a companion November/December 2001 “Study of NPR’s Coverage of Deaths in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.”

    It found an 81% likelihood that an Israeli death would be reported compared to 34% for a Palestinian. Among under age 18 Palestinians, only 20% were reported compared to 89% of Israelis, FAIR concluding that “being a minor makes your death more newsworthy to NPR if you are Israeli, but less” so, or not at all, if Palestinian.”

    “Mainstream US media, including NPR, suppress stories like the London Guardian Rory McMarthy’s on April 17, 2009 headlined, “Teargas canister shot kills Palestinian demonstrator,” saying “Bassem Abu Rahmeh is (the) 18th person to die since 2004 during demonstrations against (the) West Bank(’s)” Separation Wall.

    Before being killed, Abu Rahmed begged Israeli soldiers not to shoot lest they kill an Israeli, his last words in Hebrew being: “Officer, officer, officer, listen, you killed an Israeli, wait a moment, wait a moment!” Instead, a high-velocity gas canister hit him in the chest and killed him.”

    Nor here the thing
    http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/04/national-public-radios-npr-pro-israeli-bias/
    As well as Fair.org

    “From 1990-2009, Linda Gradstein was NPR’s Israel correspondent, at the same time accepting pro-Israeli organization honoraria, the Electronic Intifada’s Ali Abunimah and Nigel Parry reported on February 19, 2002 in their article headlined, “Special report: NPR’s Linda Gradstein takes cash payments from pro-Israeli groups.”

    Despite a clear conflict of interest, professional ethics, and NPR policy, she worked as a paid Israeli propagandist, EI writers concluding:

    “for some reason or other, Gradstein (was) effectively exempt from NPR’s own regulations.

  • Michael

    On March 26, Mondoweiss.net published Henry Norr’s article headlined, “When it comes to E. Jerusalem, ‘NPR’ misleads and misinforms,” offering examples from 22 recent broadcasts.

    NPR calls the city “Israel’s capital,” its “undivided (or) unified capital,” with a historic claim to it all. In contrast, Occupied East Jerusalem is dismissed as “disputed territory,” its final status “only (to) be determined through negotiations” that may or may not occur, but given how previous ones were structured it won’t matter.

    In three accounts, NRP quoted Netanyahu saying “The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 years ago,” despite Judaic roots dating only from around 1,800 BC, the Old Testament calling Abraham the first Hebrew for refusing to worship the period’s common idols, and organized Judaism dates from Moses around 1,500 BC.

    The November 1947 UN Partition Plan (Resolution 181) designated Jerusalem an international city under a UN Trusteeship Council, still binding today. The 1949 UN Resolution 273 gave Israel UN membership conditional on its implementing Resolutions 181 and 194 (December 1948) granting Palestinians their universally accepted “Right of Return — topics NPR never explains.

    Though rarely discussed or reported, world governments and the International Court of Justice (ICJ) consider East Jerusalem occupied. Even the ICRC says so, calling Israeli actions there “illegal” under international law, specifically the 1907 Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva’s Article 49 stating:

    “Individual or mass transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of the motive.” Neither shall “The Occupying Power… deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

    In addition, numerous UN resolutions established “no legal validity” for occupied land acquisitions or settlement building. When violations occur, no nation may recognize or support them or the responsible state.

    “Martin Indyk (former US Israeli ambassador and Netanyahu brother-in-law) hyping Iran as an “existential threat” when last September Reuters quoted Defense Minister Ehud Barak saying “Iran does not constitute an existential threat to Israel… Israel is strong. I don’t see anyone who could pose an existential threat,” though he called Iran a challenge to the whole world without being more specific.”

    How many times is this reported or said on the news about the threat to israel by iran yet how many times do you hear Ehud Barak Statment that Iran is no threat to Israel???

    The above i listed is long yes, but informative for anyone that wishes to read, rarely reported in U.S. news. and would hardly be required or feel the need to post if the U.S. media did it’s job and were objective in it’s reporting. As well Poll after Poll show that the public is moving toward it’s F.M. party who are of the same coin if not worst than Hamas and this is the case between 16 to 18 year in israel along with both in America and Israel it’s supporters are becoming much more radical in there religious beliefs. And as i noted Keeping one race one religion in power must suppress the minorities. Plus the fact it’s Right Wing government is strengthening the hand of it’s enemies. As America becomes more and more diverse we will have a portion of the current white majority finding ways to suppress minorities rights.

    Again if the media esp NPR whose supposed to be better than most News outlets did there job like they claim to do, i would not feel the need to post as much, like you said context is everything and in regards to israel anything negative of israel is often view as a war on all Jews and name calling slander, and the race card is all over anyone that does not toe the line.

    In response

    “Right or wrong all the people in your posts had their identity and political zeitgeist formed by the events of WW2. Not one country wanted to lift a hand to help Jews in Europe. So they took matters into their own hands.”

    Not one? And what did they do? do you remember? I read acts of terrorism were committed by Jewish groups to create the State of israel against the Brits(King David Hotel comes to mind), Arabs and Fellow Jews.
    Many stating the same reasons and tactics that Arab terrorist are stating as there reasons today. Of course what happen to the Jews of than was far worst than what is happening to the Palestinian of today but Ibet the people in gaza who loss there families and livelihood to what the Israeli Government has been doing would think much like some Jews did after WW2.

    “The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel’s right-wing Herut (or “Freedom”) party, which led to today’s Likud party. Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

    The danger is for both israel and the world is that many are turning to people like Avigdor Lieberman (the Dick Cheney of Israel) as the trending policy is to occupy as much as they can and the settlers who come are often coming to such settlements because of the subsidies and financial support to do so.

    If this man takes office the head ache we have now with israel will just get worst. His actions and comments are far worst than what some in the media have been trying to paint Turkeys PM,FM and President.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

  • jeffe

    Michael I don’t think the US media has balanced reporting on the Middle East and particularity Gaza and the West Bank.

    You posted so much information here that it will take me a while to go over it all.

    Alan Dershowitz is an extremist. He is entitled to his opinion but he does not speak for all Jews and he’s wrong on so many things, such as he was on the innocence of OJ Simpson.

    Noam Chomsky is Jewish as well and he’s pretty critical of Israel. The key is language and how it is used.
    To be critical of Israel I think it’s important to not to fall into the trap of using language that can lead to one being called an anti-Semite.

    Of course if someone says that any critique of Israel makes them Antisemitic it would seem to me that the conversation is already shut down. There’s no point going on anymore.

    For instance to say that Jews think they are special is a very problematic statement that has a subtext linked to anti-Semitic rhetoric. Of course there are Jews who say this as well, and this makes this whole issue a very difficult one. If we look at European history and how Jews were treated and thought of as different, defined as “other”, the foreigner it’s easy to see how this idea can become the grist of both the Zionist and the Anti-Semite.

    I read the Guardian and the Independent which are both British news organizations and it seems to me that they do have more information on the the Palestinian side of the conflict.

    You talk of a secular state in regards to Israel, which is a valid point and one that I have heard from Israelis. However Hamas is not interested in having a secular state if I understand their philosophy correctly.

    I’ll play devils advocate here for a moment: Being that Israel is surrounded by countries that are for the most part Muslim, and to certain degrees non-secular, how is it that Israel should be the exception?

    I will have to read more of what you posted, it’s a lot.

  • http://negativematter.blogspot.com/ Ergun Coruh

    The bottom line is it doesn’t matter who allies himself with whom, so long as pro-religious politicians or religious dictatorships are in power, sustainable peace will remain as an impossible objective. In no part of the history Iran, Gaza, Turkey and Israel have been governed by such a ferocious and poisonous religious hostility towards each other simultaneously as we see today. This is the direct result of US policy of building a “green belt” against communism during 80′s in the region which backfired starting with 9/11. If there is any hope left that should be to support secularism in those countries which will unite them to find reasonable agreements to their problems.

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