Life With Goats

TODAY IS WEDNESDAY, MAY 16, 2012

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Wednesday, August 19, 2009 at 11:00 AM EDT

Life With Goats

Brad Kessler and Hannah (Photo: Dona Ann McAdams)

Most of us don’t herd goats anymore. Go far enough back in time, and a whole lot of humans did.

Brad Kessler left a rent-controlled apartment in New York’s East Village to raise goats in Vermont. He took it seriously — even spiritually — for himself, and now for us, in the pages of a wondrous little book on goat-herding.

There’s a reason, he writes, that Jesus, Moses, Krishna and Mohammed were all tied up with shepherds. There’s something magic here. And the cheese is pretty divine, too.

This hour: bucks, does, birth, herding, and life with goats.

You can join the conversation. Tell us what you think — here on this page, on Twitter, and on Facebook.

Guest:

Joining us in our studio is Brad Kessler, a novelist and author of the new book “Goat Song: A Seasonal Life, A Short History of Herding, and the Art of Making Cheese.” His other books include the novels “Birds in Fall” and “Lick Creek,” as well as award-winning children’s books in the “Rabbit Ears” series.

You can browse excerpts from “Goat Song” at the publisher’s website.

More links:

Brad Kessler won the 2009 Rome Prize from the American Academy of Arts and Letters in Rome. The Academy’s blog posts this image of a goat on a silver didrachm, from Paros in the Cyclades, 4th-3rd century BC:

alan rasmussen

Tom Ashbrook called herding the oldest profession. Surely humans hunted before they herded, millenia before. Why isn’t hunting qualified to be called a profession? For that matter they must have gathered before learning to hunt.
Sue

I’ve always loved goats and wanted to make goat cheese . . . how many goats do you need to produce enough cheese to make and sell?
Marcela Pino

I am from Vermont and I heard a interview with Brad Kessler in VPR where he talks about the connection between certain folkloric signing (I think especially in Europe) and goat herding. It was facinating and I would like to hear more about it.

Thanks,
Lorelei

I understand this desire to come to a life that is more in touch with the nature that is around us and essential to our origins and existence. It’s more than just romantic for me- it’s inspired from two things: first, watching illness in family members, and looking for ways to help them to step away from all the manufactured and processed foods; secondly, having a deep appreciation of nature and animals.

But what about the challenge for anyone stepping away from an american-style life replete with financial burdens? What has Brad experienced with some of these challenges?
Florence DiTirro

I am wondering what he does with his kids. I raised goats in the 80′s and 90′s. Before the First Gulf War there was an Islamic community that would purchase my kids. With the conflict they disappeared from our area and at that point it became quite difficult to find “homes” for the kids.
Faith Justice

I grew up in Brooklyn NY but worked at Plimoth Plantation as a village interpreter during the 1979 season. I was in charge of tending two kids and I fell in love with goats. They were so much fun, always getting out of there pen and running around the village. In the morning when I would open their pen one of them would always greet me by bumping my opened palm with her head.
I can’t ever pass a goat now without say ‘hello’.
Tom Trombley

I currently have 1 nubian goat and two Churro Sheep, all wethers. The Goat is realy personable and the sheep have little to no personality. This show is making me consider getting a few does, retiring from my job and going into the goat cheese business.

Question: How much of an investment does it take to begin making cheese from half a doezen does? and, how much do you need to charge for a pound of cheese to break even economically?

Another question: I have about five acres of wooded land. Can goats fed primarily on saplings and poison ivy produce good cheese?

They don’t seem interested in my grass and they managed to kill a very nice oak tree in my back yard.
dianna g

How does Tom Ashbrook do it?

It is absolutely fascinating to see Tom Ashbrook switching his brain waves from deadly serious discussion about Afghanistan to goats/cheese in Vermont, within minutes. Always with flawless and perfect success.

Does he have super high IQ? Did did he learn this craft? What is his day like?

I wish we had a program about the life of an intellectual talk show host while he is both the host and the guest at the same time.

ps. learned so much about goats today
Mary Ann

What a charming story. Although I have never lived with goats, I do occasionally milk for a friend when she is on vacation. It is the most real, relaxing activity I can imagine. So much of modern life is contrived. But when I’m milking, I know exactly what I am doing, and why I am doing it, and it’s important.

And I must say, the Swiss singing at the end of the story was beautiful and haunting.
Dan Reed

You are bring out all of memories from my childhood. Your Hannan was our Jesse. Jesse was the third largest goat I’d ever seen, the first largest being her brother. she also had the dexterity of a locksmith. With her head and month, she was able to pick thru just about any lock, chain or rope and if not, she had the size to ram her way through the gate. And yet, her description could not be complete without mention of her inteligence. She learned how to beat the electric fence. She knew that the fence pulse on and pulse off. Somehow, out in the field, she would time the pulse and then jet through the fence when it pulsed off. The other goats would try to follow and ussually got zapped, “BLEAT!” Soon they learned to wait for Jesse. If you can imagine the scene, 15 goats all lined along the fence, Jesse in the middle and all the rest waiting for her to go. One second the goats would be in their fence and the second the entire herd would be out. Further evidence of Jesse’s towering mental powers, Jesse let out the herd thru the front gate (unlatched an hook and eye latch on the outside of the gate,) We kept the grain that we fed the goats in the morning with, in a large box with a plywood lid. She jumped into the box and laid down so as to let the lid close over her. When I arrived, I herded everybody back into pen and called “Headcount!” and the adult goats lined up with their kids, and I immediately realized Jesse was missing. I walked around the barnyard and then opened all the spare pens looking for her. I then called my brothers & sisters (I am the eldest of seven,) and formed the search party. As we were forming up in the barn, “you go up & down the streat on your bike, you go out back thru the forest…” when we heard this grinding and the crunching of grain in teeth from the grainbox. My sister lifted the lid a stared at old Jesse just laying there serenely eating grain.
Of course there is more, but how could I have time. I suppose I could write a book. Naa! lol.
Blair

Is the music of the women herders that Tom played out to available for purchase? Any information on that beautiful music would be much appreciated!
http://www.carlislefarmsteadcheese.com Tricia Smith

I would like to say a few kind words about bucks. (Tom, they’re not as hazardous as rams.)

We have a small commercial herd of Oberhasli 20 miles outside of Boston in surburbia (like Brad I’ve been milking between four and seven does) — and we keep bucks. I adore them, even as we get into the high testerone season of sexual display and antics. Currently, our older buck Adair is living with his son Bertram who began visiting the buck barn at two weeks of age and moved in permanently at four months of age. Bertram when small would rest against his dad under his beard, and Adair obviously adores him.

We predicted that Adair would treat his visiting two-week old offspring kindly. Three days after his first kids were born in the main barn, I noticed at a distance someone touching noses with the little ones who were just starting to venture out of the barn. That’s about the age when our adult goats start moving out of the way of newborns and begin to approach themp0-[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[. However, all the does were with me! I realized that Adair had unlatched his fence gate, walked by all the does without fussing them, and gone into the main barn to touch his kids.

That said, we handle our bucks with care and carefully as we get into breeding season. And our cheeses do not taste buckish — the simplest of hygiene in milk handling prevents that.

Bucks are as wonderfully personable as the does. I am sure that there will be a buck or two in Brad’s future!

Thanks for this interview!
http://www.rainbeauridge.com Judith Hausman

For both poetic and practical discussions of some questions posted here, look for our book, Over the Rainbeau: Living the Dream of Sustainable Farming, in late October. Our memoir-recipe-how-to book traces the story of creating a sustainable farm and a line award-winning farmstead goat cheeses, in the suburbs and from scratch. In the meantime visit http://www.rainbeauridge.com.
Matilda Giampietro

This was the BEST program! I listened to every word while I cooked a dinner to bring my elderly father. He used to bring the goats to his mother to milk at night in their tiny mountain town in southern Italy. He is in a nursing home, I bring the “real” food when I go, and love his stories of his early life.

The timeliness and importance of this story about our connection to the earth and our fellow creatures is powerful. And it was marvelous to hear that Tom Ashbrook knows sheep and haying and connected so directly with Brad Kessler! I have a new found respect and appreciation for Tom Ashbrook.

The songs of the Swiss women calling their goats that you played at the end of the show just blew me away. THANK YOU!!!! Where can I find that recording?

With deep thanks,

Matilda Giampietro
David Andrews

I want those Swedish women singing in my house too! Where o where can I get that recording???
http://chefcontos.com Courtney

Great interview! I will raise goats in the next couple years and the show was so inspiring to me.

Question:
what was the song or artist you played at the end of the show?

Thank you!
http://www.onpointradio.org/about-on-point/wen-stephenson/ Wen Stephenson

Wonderful to see these responses to the show. As for the singing at the end, it’s Swedish women singing what’s known as a “kulning” to call their goats. You can hear the audio on YouTube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyfdkvvzyzQ
Putney Swope

I found this on youtube, enjoy. Lucky goats…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyfdkvvzyzQ
John Myers

Thanks for another great show.
On Point is my favorite show on NPR.

John in Spokane.
http://goats@polymeadows.com Jennifer Lawrence

Brad and Dona,

Great photo above (as usual). Nothing like goat kisses to make your day.

Love,
Jennifer
http://thepawsitivedog.com Kathleen Vickery

I agree with Dianna G’s comment above (“How Does Tom Ashbrook Do It?”) Beyond your keen intellect, your genuine interest, curiosity and enthusiasm for EVERY topic you explore is enviable and so darn appealing. Today’s topic is one I know well. I attribute my six decades of good health to being raised on raw goat milk. My parents raised Toggenburgs, but I loved the one Nubian in our barn, my 4-H project, Arabella. I’m happy to say that my daughter inherited my fondness for goats. She keeps 2 big, noisy, lovable Nubians and 2 quieter and more demure Oberhaslis (from Tricia Smith’s farm) as companions for her horses and so that I can get my “goaty fix” whenever I visit. I was glad to hear goatkeeper Kessler educate your listeners and dispel a few of the persistent myths: Female goats do NOT smell and NONE of them eat tin cans! They’re much smarter than THAT!
Sara Bredesen

As a goat maker and licensed cheese maker from Wisconsin, it’s fun to hear the Kessler story. For those who asked about how much milk, the rule of thumb is one pound of cheese from ten pounds of milk (about 5 quarts), but it changes with the hardness of the cheese. A warning for those who want to sell it: each state has strict requirements about how milk and cheese can be sold legally. Dairy products are potentially dangerous, because they are the perfect medium for pathogenic bacteria if not handled carefully. Know the rules before considering selling it.
As for goats, you need two of them for you and the goats to be happy. They are herd animals, and they have to be dry two months of the year between lactations. If you want milk year-round, you have to offset their breedings, which by the way is seasonal. Get a good book and do some studying. I’d recommend Storey’s Guide to Raising Dairy Goats. I’m in the process of editing the newest edition which will be out probably next spring.
Rebecca

I was moved to tears listening Mr. Kessler on NPR this morning, particularly when he read from his book. Truly…truly a thing of beauty.

Thank you!
http://www,harmonyhomesteadpygora.com Elaine Deegan

I am a Pygora goat breeder, and fell in love with these fiber goats for spinning fleece into fine wool. it is very calming and relaxing to spin the fleece into a nice soft yarn.

The spiritual essence of being in the moment, and living a life in Harmony with nature has been our path after our two legged kids left the nest….

Living life in the Goat Lane is a book that comically describes the path less taken. I look forward to buying “Goat Song” and adding it to the lbrary at Harmony Homestead. Thank you for spreading the word…and visit our website to see some of our goat stories on the blog…
Ruth Baker

Love all of NPR’s shows, but esp., Tom Ashbrook’s. The comment regarding his genius is spot-on.

Fantastic show and interesting comments re: goats, of which I have none (Wish I could have more animals, but keep them as pets.)
I do have three cats, and as I played the gorgeous “Kuln” singing on the above link, as well at the end of Tom’s program, they got very upset, and ran around growling. Evidently, the “kulning” reminded my cats, perhaps, of wolves howling?? Quite an interesting reaction. . .
Putney Swope

One thing struck me as I listened to this show.
Vermont’s dairy farms are dieing at a an astonishing rate as are the ones here in Massachusetts. New Hampshire long ago gave up the ghost of working farms as they are far and few between.

It seems to me maybe for some dairy farmers goats are the answer. Maybe not. The corporate industrial agricultural complex which dictates how we get our food has been killing local farms all across this country for decades.

It’s nice that Brad Kessler has the money to get into this. But the real story of New England farms is not a happy one. Don’t get me wrong this was a great show and I applaud the Kessler’s for doing what they are doing. The larger issues of how farms in this region thrive and prosper are in need of a show in itself from On Point.

Buy local.
Putney Swope

Wen I posted that link before you… no bother.

By the way some of the other kulning videos are painful.
Scott

I was supposed to be on a short errand last night. Soon spellbound by this show I drove around just to hear most of it. I have fond memories caring for goats as a veterinary medical student. You have not lived until you have “bottle-fed” a baby goat. I worked many overnight shifts caring for sick large animals with my student colleagues. We always fought over who would get to feed the baby goats.
http://www.meadowsweetblue.webs.com Kerrin

I love this topic! We moved from Boston (Allston) to New Hampshire, where we have a small dairy goat farm. We love it and are learning more everyday. Our goats are so interactive, interesting and affectionate and they enjoy milking as much as we do!
Tanya

I could not believe my ears when I heard “the goat story.” Exactly in the same words I was describing my experience on my parents’ farm, taking care and milking goats for coupe of weeks in Ukraine, to my family and colleagues. After couple of days I felt something I never experienced before, and yes, the pictures from Bible came to my mind. Brad’s story convinced me there is something unexplainable.
Great stony! Thank you!
Tanya
http://npr.org John Uhl

Tom’s observation that the root word of paradise is to milk struck me. Memories of the evening milkin at Tom Thiebault’s barn in Churubusco NY came flooding back. Slopping around a hot, stuffy, smelly barn is, I’m afraid, not my particular vision of paradise.
Beth Voso

How nice….Someone who “gets it” !!….I spend an inordinate amount of time answering the question..”Why do you have goats?” Currently I do not milk or make cheese..I aspire to this, but time doesn’t allow just now….I just enjoy their graceful aesthetics, their intellect, humor, routines, curiousity and company, and the immediate connection with nature they provide, and the escape from the technological world which is so refreshing !!!

I can’t wait to read your book..!!!
Leslie Plant

I finished this wonderful book this past Sunday. Mr. Kessler got it exactly right. Forty years ago I raised Nubians and, even after all these years of goatlessness, I can still hear the goat song so clearly ~ my head against the warm side of a doe to milk as she munched her sweet grain, the sound of the milk streams hitting the bucket, the scent of the fresh milk, the charming kids, the connection with the does. Nothing like it on earth.