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. Professor Pilo inspects a skull in the killing fields of Bogoro, Ituri, eastern Congo. (Susan Meiselas/Magnum Photos)

Professor Pilo inspects a skull in the killing fields of Bogoro, Ituri, eastern Congo. (Susan Meiselas/Magnum Photos)

When the International Criminal Court, the ICC, was formed in 2002, its goals were big — to arrest and prosecute warlords for mass murders and genocide, for crimes committed against humanity.

But those big goals met with equally big challenges. How does a prosecutor in the Netherlands arrest a warlord at large in the jungles of Congo?

“The Reckoning,” a new PBS documentary, tracks the struggle to make the International Criminal Court, from the courtrooms of The Hague to refugee camps in Uganda and the killing fields in Sudan.

This hour, On Point: Warlords, war crimes, and the International Criminal Court.

You can join the conversation. Tell us what you think — here on this page, on Twitter, and on Facebook.

Guests:

Pamela Yates is director of “The Reckoning: The Battle for the International Criminal Court,” which was featured at the 2009 Sundance Film Festival and is airing on PBS. She’s a 2008 Guggenheim fellow and co-founder of Skylight Pictures, the documentary production company.

You can watch the film online at PBS.org through September 14.

Christine Chung was the first senior trial attorney to work in the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. She directed the ICC investigation which led to the first ICC arrest warrants, for Joseph Kony, leader of Uganda’s rebel “Lord’s Resistance Army.” She also worked on the ICC’s investigations in Darfur and the Congo. She’s now a partner at the law firm Quinn Emanuel.

Watch the trailer for “The Reckoning:”

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  • Larry

    The outlaw Zionist state of Israel has been gleefully trampling on human rights and committing war crime after war crime for a half-century.
    When will we ever see ANY Israeli hauled before the freakshow in The Hague?
    Don’t hold your breath!

  • Mike

    goes to show the icc is a joke, selectivly picking whats are war crimes and selectivly staying mute of the actions of others (western countries).

    Justice for some i guess.

  • Jason Chambers

    As a law student at Loyola New Orleans I studied the ICC extensively; perhaps your guest(s) could explain the concept of “universality” and how important it is beyond the borders of the world’s only superpower.

    -Jason Chambers
    Charleston, SC

  • Larry

    Can you imagine what the ICC would have thought about the “Trail of Tears” or Indian removal in general in historical America?
    Oh the hypocrisy!

  • R.M

    Larry What are you people’s obsessions with Israel and those fabricated war crimes ?…..There are lies piled up upon lies to make that this tiny country the size of new jersey look like the world worst human right abuser in the history of humanity . The propaganda machine against Israel is in full swing and you should ask yourselves why and who are perpetuating them ?
    JOSEPH GOEBBELS NAZI PROPAGANDA MINISTER IS ALIVE AGAIN !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfFWr8hxh3I

  • R.M.

    Larry if you are so concerned about refugees ,why are you not interested in the 1 million jews kicked out of Arab countries ,They never got compensation for all the suffering and the properties that were stolen from them .

    http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/

  • Mike

    larry,

    don’t you understand what r.m. is trying to say

    “evil acts justify acts of evil against others and its okay”

    and if you are to point this out is to prove it is wrong and something would need to be done such as trials, santions,u.n. resolutions,jail time and most of all ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of human rights abuse, crimes agaisnt a ethnic group, murder, and these countries are not as moral as they think they are.

    (we can’t have that can we r.m.)

    I beat many leaders in the congo, sudan,georiga, iran, israel,U.S.,Columbia, burma, would state the chrages against them are fabricated war crimes, even when factually by definitions they were, and are.

  • R.M.

    WHERE IS YOUR PRECIOUS U.N. FOR THESE CHILDREN ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY7XgCOTXaU&NR=1&feature=fvwp

  • R.M

    NATIONAL POST

    A case study in UN hypocrisy
    Hillel Neuer and Marissa Cramer
    National Post (Canada)
    July 17, 2009

    Last week, not for the first time, the world witnessed state-sanctioned violence against protesters in Iran and China. Yet the United Nations was instead focused on Israel, due to unprecedented hearings held by a UN inquiry into the Gaza conflict of six months ago. This was precisely the goal of the body that organized the inquiry, the discredited UN Human Rights Council.

    The inquiry’s lead investigator is former international prosecutor Justice Richard Goldstone. From the beginning, the terms of his mandate have been unclear. The original council resolution in January began by finding Israel guilty of “massive violations,” and then created a “fact-finding mission” to support its pre-determined conclusion. At the Human Rights Council, where tyrannies are the majority, such upside-down justice is the norm.

    Goldstone, however, claims that he accepted the task — which had been rejected by former UN rights chief Mary Robinson — only after the council president expanded the examination to include both sides. In contrast to the original mandate, Goldstone speaks only of “alleged” violations. In other words, he is trying to conduct a genuine inquiry despite having been appointed to a farcical one. It’s a tricky feat.

    When the inquiry last week invited not only Palestinians to speak, but Israeli victims as well, Goldstone introduced something new to the UN. He deserves particular credit for inviting Noam Shalit, father of abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, held incommunicado by Hamas since 2006, and denied access to the Red Cross.

    Yet whatever balance Goldstone may bring, the inherent problem with his mission is that it plays into the collective strategy of the council’s repressive regimes, which is to cover up abuses in places such as Iran, China, Pakistan, Russia, Egypt and Zimbabwe — all ignored this year — and instead shine a permanent spotlight on Israel.

    Consider the council’s sense of “proportionality”: More than three-quarters of all its condemnatory resolutions have been against one country — Israel — as well as five out of its nine emergency sessions on country situations. As a permanent feature of every regular session, it has one agenda item for violations around the world, and another specifically on Israel. Except for a handful of censures of North Korea and Burma, the world body has virtually ignored the UN’s 191 other member states.

    But didn’t the council in May hold a session on Sri Lanka? Yes, but one that actually praised the government, instead of holding it accountable. Comparing the UN session on Sri Lanka with the January session against Israel, the one that created Goldstone’s mission, is illustrative of the double standards the plague the 47-nation council.

    At first glance, the conflicts this year in Israel and Sri Lanka appear similar. In the backdrop of territorial disputes, both countries fought terrorist groups that target civilians and use them as human shields, and in both cases, innocent civilians became casualties.

    But if one examines their actual conduct, the two cases are different.

    First, according to the Times of London, the death toll of civilians in Sri Lanka is more than 20,000. By contrast, even according to Palestinian figures, the toll in Gaza was approximately 1,000 — meaning that Sri Lanka killed over 20 times more civilians.

    Second, Israel undertook extensive measures to prevent harming civilians while fighting in a densely-populated region, using leaflets and personal telephone calls to warn civilians to seek shelter. According to British Colonel Richard Kemp, no military in history had ever taken greater precautions. Sri Lanka, by contrast, never claimed to do any of this. And while Israel made humanitarian pauses every day, Sri Lanka failed to do so, and shelled civilians trapped in its self-proclaimed “no-fire zones.”

    Third, while Sri Lanka cracked down on journalists and doctors who dared to publicize the government’s actions against civilians, Israel tolerated vehement criticism every day in newspapers, the Knesset and from pro-Palestinian NGOs.

    In sum, the war-time actions by Sri Lanka were far worse than Israel’s. Yet at the council, it was Israel that got slammed and Sri Lanka praised.

    Though a minority of well-intended democracies forced the council to debate Sri Lanka, the repressive majority determined the outcome. With no shame, they adopted a resolution written by Sri Lanka itself, lauding “the continued commitment of Sri Lanka to the promotion and protection of all human rights.” Despite calls for an inquiry into violations by High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, Sri Lanka was completely left off the hook.

    The lesson from the Sri Lanka session should not go ignored by Justice Goldstone: The road to harmful council resolutions is paved with good intentions.

    Even if his mission presents a somewhat balanced report — and that does not mean equating a terrorist group that deliberately targets civilians with a democracy that seeks to defend itself while avoiding such casualties — it is unclear what the council would do with it. Nothing will prevent the majority of Islamic states and their allies from endorsing the inevitable sections on Israeli criminality while ignoring the rest.

    One thing is certain: Justice Goldstone’s mission has already served the council’s rulers by keeping the spotlight where they want it, and by lending the wayward institution, and particularly its handling of Israel, a credibility it most assuredly does not deserve.

    - Hillel Neuer is executive director of UN Watch, and Marissa Cramer is a Richard and Rhoda Goldman Fellow at UN Watch. http://www.unwatch.org

    Copyright 2009, National Post
    URL: http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/story.html?id=1799595&p=2

  • Lilya Lopheka

    I hope the Guests from ICC reads this.

    There should be double standards or flex-standards.

    We almost know that there will not be any other Hitler or Rwanda or Bosnia type of killings. Ethnic Cleansing and Human Rights/War Crimes violoations will be more crafty… ie. real estate right, denial of water, covert intimidation, perhaps systematic rapes.

    For Western/Industrial Countries, the bar should be higher. Declaring an illegal war (Iraq), demolitions (West Bank), Rapes/Disappearances (Kashmir) should be given equal importance to killing tens of thousands in Africa… at least to make a point.

    If we don’t do this, for many years to come, it will be Western/European powers vs. African issues, only; and nothing else. This is bad for ICC.

  • Lilya Lopheka

    To the Guests:
    Please don’t listen to the defenders of Israel (zio-liars) on this Board. They have nothing else to do, except to defend and create excuses for Israel’s actions.

  • Larry

    This “Tiny Country The Size Of New Jersey” stuff makes me laugh.
    If the Zionists had stuck to the UN’s original 1947 mandate, Israel would have been a lot smaller than New Jersey.
    “New Jersey” was the result of several illegal land-grabs!

  • ao

    Larry,

    At the time Israel would have been thrilled to have accepted the partition plan. The other side rejected it and rejected the Jewish state and have continue to do so. Work broke out and the rest is history.

    At the end of the day, the Jews have turned their ancestral homeland into one of the most advance countries in the world while living in the toughest neigbourhood of the world. Israel is the Sotomayor of countries. Israel is the kid who from the neighbourhood of poverty, crack and prostitution who ends up at Harvard by sheer will. Yes, we need to help the rest of the neighbourhood but that kid remains a hero.

    ao

  • R.M.

    lilya I thought the moderator asked you to be civil and stop insulting?

  • R.M.

    Larry ,On November 29,1947, the General Assembly of the United Nation voted with a 2/3 majority to partition western Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state . THE ARABS REJECTED IT. The mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al Husseini stated: ” I DECLARE A HOLY WAR , MY MOSLEM BROTHERS”
    “MURDER THEM ALL, MURDER THE JEWS”
    On the day that Israel declared its independence , the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan , Egypt and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the declared intent of destroying it . but the new Jewish state survived
    The Arab state encouraged Arabs to flee. Israel begged them not to …..The ones who did not leave are still living in Israel . But almost 1 million Jews were kicked out of Arab countries . Jews who had lived in the region thousands of years before Islam . They sought refuge in the state of Israel And were intergrated . 50% of israeli jews now living in Israel are jews who were kicked out of Arab countries ……
    1949 Israel signed armistice agreement with Egypt , Syria , Lebanon and Jordan . NO attempt was made by the Arab countries to solve the refugees: instead , they kept them in camps with the intention of using them as political pawns . In 1967 President Nasser of Egypt declared “OUR BASIC GOAL IS THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyPBQirBH0

  • http://ugandans.wordpress.com/ Tendo Kaluma

    The people of the great lakes region have suffered unimaginable atrocities under their so-called leaders for a number of decades now. Yet the perpetrators of such egregious crimes against humanity continue to walk freely with impunity in these killing fields of the world enjoying all the fine things in life.
    For countries like Uganda-where each new wave of leadership brought in a new tribe with cleverer and harsher measures of suppression and abuse, those who were victimized, relied heavily on the ICC to bring them relief. Only to be deeply disappointed by it’s limited scope of jurisdiction. Today Ugandans continues to suffer from tribal polarization and mistrust paving way to horizontal violence, vigilantism and mob justice as a way of expressing their political frustration and lack of redress of trauma.
    The dreams and promise of democracy seem to have evaporated with the millions who have perished in the struggle of self-determination.
    I hope the international community; will not stop at the advent of the ICC court alone to address the cheapening of life in these countries. We owe it to the people who have endured such atrocities, to have other mechanisms of seriously keeping track of any new abuses. It is so easy to get information from those who are abused in many countries today, especially with the prevalence of cell phone technology.
    The court now has to take a more pro-active role to collect evidence and give warning to those in power that they themselves face prosecution if such atrocities continue under their watch.
    In order to move on from the wounds of yester years these countries have to adopt non-violent conflict resolution processes, similar to the truth and reconciliation commission of South Africa. The wounds are too deep and long to be washed away without a cleansing process. America ought to stand with the ICC, as it has always done where gross human right abuses have been evidenced. We continue to be hopeful, when we see the netting of those Nazis who committed heinous crimes against humanity more than sixty-four years ago. It is with the same standard and spirit of justice that we hold and expect the new ICC to operate and wield it’s long arm of the law in the most remote places on earth, in zones that were labeled as the killing fields of the world.

    Ugandan in Boston

  • Mike

    Larry,

    what ao or r.m. fails to mentions is why the arabs did not accpet the agreement, which placed water supplies and better land, there also fail to mention the lead up to the war, where before hand jews and arabs had a good relations, until zionist jews came, unskilled but forth laws discriminating against non-jews, for for lower skilled and high pay zionist jews, than the step of evictiing (like today) arabs leading to a distain for the new zionist jew settlers coming in.

    what they fail to mention as well it was such a problem the british try and slow it down and put a stop to it.

    what they fail to mention is the deal was nothing close to fail and was done after assianations of a british national by a radical jew miltia group, along with bombing of a certain hotel.

    what they like you to believe is that jews in israel did nothing wrong and set no laws that would inflame arabs to dislike them.

    what they like you to believe is becasue some jews suffered every actions israel takes is unquestionable (as some leaders in africa, iran, would think the same thing).

    When israel is found to violate human rights laws, ethic cleansing and abuse of their minorititys there first response is stop pointing this out, its lies, deny, deny, deny, repeat,than the ad hominem attacks come out.

    But maybe they cannot acknowledge that jews like any other groups can commit evil, vile acts for of hated towards another group and fear repercussions will come back if they admit it.

    So they will point out undemocratic countries actions to justify theres. But as the icc and many point out

    “violations by one party to a conflict never justify violations by the other”.

    I learn that in grade school 2 wrongs dont make a right

  • Mike

    “nothing close to fail”,should be nothing close to fair

    “which placed water supplies and better land in jew hands”

  • millard-fillmore

    Talking of human rights, let’s also shine the light on Islamic countries and how they treat non-Muslim minorities, gays and women; and what rights and freedoms are enjoyed by non-Muslims in such countries – whether they’re treated as second-rate citizens (just like many blacks are in the US), or are they treated as equal citizens.

    Let’s talk about the jaziya imposed on non-Muslim Sikhs by Taliban.

    Let’s discuss how Hindus were forced to wear armbands in Afghanistan, just like Jews in Hitler’s Nazi Germany.

    Let’s talk about the genocide of Kashmiri Hindus and how they have been forced to leave their homes and migrate out of Kashmir by the Islamist terrorists. We hardly ever hear about their story in mainstream media.

    Let’s also discuss how gays are hanged in Iran for being gay (no pun intended).

    Let’s add to the discussion, how workers are mis-treated in Dubai and don’t have many rights – Johann Hari did a piece on it. Worker’s rights are usually a favorite issue of the left, but for some reason, the left has refused to champion this cause. I wonder why.

  • Mike

    yes millard lets do this,

    lets create a real international court(icc is a joke) and create concrete rules and laws to go after any country in the world and hold there leaders accountable, including the U.S. as well, im totally fine with this.

    As you pointed out the ICC does not do this for some muslim countries along with not doing this for israel or western countries, or the caste system in india as well.

    But i doubt these countries would sign on.

  • R.M

    So can you explain why Jews have been treated as dhimmis for centuries by Muslims and why there were massacres after massacres of indigenous Jews who had never left Israel ?don’t tell me it was because of the Zionist jooooooooos who lived in Israel !!!!!!!!!!!!! give me a break with your ethnic cleansing BS …..THERE IS NO ETHNIC CLEANSING IN ISRAEL . IF THERE WAS THE ARAB POPULATION WOULD NOT BE GROWNING AND DOUBLING …AND .THERE IS NO APARTHEID .If you want apartheir go to SAUDI ARABIA ….EVERYONE GO VISIT ISRAEL . ITS A VERY NICE BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY WITH VERY NICE PEOPLE . The ARABS LIVING THERE, HAVE THE BEST LIVING CONDITIONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST . THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT IS SURROUNDED WITH POPULATIONS WHO HAVE SUCH HATRED OF JEWS THAT THEY CAN’T STAND TO SEE THEM HAVE THEIR OWN COUNTRY …..ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY HAVE MADE THE DESERT BLOOM ……EVERYONE ITS TIME YOU STOPPED BEING BRAINWASHED AND START INVESTIGATING FOR YOURSELVES WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE REGION ….BUT DON’T RELY ON THE BBC …..THEY ARE TOTALLY BIAS!!!!! CHECK BBC WATCH , UN WATCH , NGO WATCH , DON’T RELY ON AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL OR HRW THEY ARE ALSO BIAS AND GIVE FALSE INFORMATION .

  • Mike

    Seems someone is in denial

    “is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. [1] The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimization) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). The concept of denial is particularly important to the study of addiction. The theory of denial was first researched seriously by Anna Freud. She classified denial as a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Where denial occurs in mature minds, it is most often associated with death, dying and rape”

    none of your sources are anything close to objective, so ill go with bbc, hrw which btw gives information that you try to present

  • brianna

    Enough of defending Israel, guys.
    You cannot defend lies and propaganda forever.
    I don’t know anybody who defends Israel and has not been paid and/or have ethnic/religious ties to Israel.

    This guy, Ian Bland is neither an Arab nor a Palestinian nor grew up in the Middle East.
    Secret Agent R.M.: Can you see the phrase “ethnic cleansing” in the article? If not, get your eyes/bifocals checked.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/04/israel-evictions-jerusalem-palestinian-families

    Israel’s evictions upset even its friendsBroad condemnation of the eviction of Palestinians in east Jerusalem reflects growing international anger over settlements

    Ian Black guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 4 August 2009 09.00 BST Article history

    It isn’t necessary to be unduly cynical to wonder exactly what it takes for British diplomats to be “appalled” by anything. But that was the reaction to Israel’s eviction of Palestinian families from the east Jerusalem neighbourhood of Sheikh Jarrah – the ugly face of ethnic cleansing and the creation of new “facts on the ground” that make nonsense of hopes for any movement in the moribund peace process.
    …..
    …..
    …..
    In the US, pundits on the right are already proclaiming triumphantly that Obama’s forward policy towards the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has failed. That may be a self-fulfilling prophecy – and there can be little doubt of Netanyahu’s intentions. But the increasingly angry response over settlements from its western friends – France has been outspoken too – suggests that Israel will pay a heavy price in international reputation and perhaps isolation if Obama does fail. If the British government is already officially “appalled” at Israel’s actions in Jerusalem then Israel might be wise to think a little harder about what that could mean for the future.

  • Sam

    To Mike and Everyone Else WHO IS UNCOMFORTABLE with Israel’s Existence

    Well, Agreed Israel MAY NOT BE THE MOST HUMAN FRIENDLY country in the world, BUT, give me a break, its much much more people friendly (ie tolerance of religion, equality of women, freedom of speech etc.) country than Saudi Arabia.

    Before you lambast Israel, let me ask you two questions:

    1. Have you ever lived in Israel?
    2. Have you ever lived in Saudi Arabia (or any other Middle East Country?

    If you haven’t, please go visit these two countries or get some real truth about these countries and then lets talk.

    And What should be the deal Mike et al?

    Lets eradicate Israel from the map of the World (just like the relected President Mohd. Ahmedinejad wants?)?

    Past is Past, Israel DOES EXIST, and like it or not, you have to take it, Sir/Madam!!!

    And Finally to all the followers of Ian et al, why you guys are using just one sided Myopic view of the story?

    Why isnt Ian Black fails to mention about the child suicide bomers, or the Hezbollah group that has litteraly destroyed the beautiful Lebanon, and has turned it back 20 years??

    Why JUST one side of the story??? Why NOT the Truth, the WHOLE TRUTH??

    Why are you failing to understand that if Rockets were falling on your backyard, would you be taking be taking the proposed positions yourself about your neighbors?

    Let the Truth Prevail!!

  • Mike

    sarn,

    1)I never said that israel should not Exist, ad hominem attacks number one,

    2)I feel the humans rights abuses in saudi A. should be address just as israels humans rights should be address as well.

    3) your reasoning that because one country(non democratic) is a excuse for israel abusing peoples human rights is laughable.

    4) democratic countries should face more scurity than non democratic contries, by that democracy is supposed to stand for freedom for all, and address human rights records, so your reasoning is weak.

    5) Let the truth come out or is that what your truly sacared of?

    6)Almost always and many can point out a one-sided view thas almost 100% pro israel on main-stream media, not sure if you live in the u.s. or not if ou did you realize this.

    7) one of the few sources that brings a more objective balance is bbc, and its attack by the israeli right all the time for doing so.

    8)Have you ever lived in Israel?
    Have you ever lived in Saudi Arabia (or any other Middle East Country?

    wouldnt want to live in ether i live in the U.S. and proud of it both countries are run by radicals and this agrument is weak yet again, i”l comment just like anyone else will on world events and human rights abuses.

    9) So many people see the truth and double standards of what israel is allowed to get away with. if you dont than it is your own problem and you do not want to hear it. I see the truth hurts your feelings and wish to spin it in a favarable manner or change the subject.Facts hurt dont it?

    10) Create a real world court with biting power to go after war crimes, ethic cleansing(israel), human rights abuses, be it saudi A, iran, U.S. israel. or anywhere in the world not this.

  • millard-fillmore

    “democratic countries should face more scurity than non democratic contries, by that democracy is supposed to stand for freedom for all, and address human rights records, so your reasoning is weak.”
    =
    Au contraire. We’re post-modernist world citizens now (as we liberals so proudly like to proclaim) and are quick to take up cudgels against injustice anywhere and shed tears (China, Tibet, Myanmar, Sudan, you-name-it). Didn’t MLK, Jr. make a similar statement – “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”? Are you saying that MLK, Jr. was wrong?

    So, logically, a case can be made that all these human rights activists need to focus their attention and energies on non-democratic countries and bring them up to speed, since there’s a greater injustice happening in those countries, as opposed to democratic countries; and their efforts will bring greater results in those countries. So, it’s your logic that’s weak. :D

  • Mike

    oh do explain more millard?

    So therefore your own admission than MLK was wrong for standing up for civil and human rights in the southern U.S. since

    “o, logically, a case can be made that all these human rights activists need to focus their attention and energies on non-democratic countries and bring them up to speed, since there’s a greater injustice happening in those countries”

    now are you saying MLK should have focus outside of the states somewhere else “to bring them up to speed?” before focusing on the U.S.? is this the green parties thinking? if so no wonder very few people support it.amazing enough you failed to answer my previous post when your questions?

    Is not a Democratic societies reasoning for having it is freedom of speech, religion , equal rights for all? And if a Democratic society is not doing so does that not show non democratic countries that democratic countries are therefore hypocrite? Should not the people in these societies stand up against this?, does this not weaken the argument for it?

    Your whole argument is totally against what MLK stood for cause by your reasoning he should have went to Africa first and done nothing in the U.S. and not stood for his rights in the U.S. since (non democratic countries should have came first)

    Try not to sully MLK name and work to make a absurd points on human rights and i stand by my point that democracies should be better, be held to higher standards, and have greater freedoms and if not than people need to speak out against it than non democracies. Apathy to this like you suggest only makes things worst. or is that what your looking for?

  • millard-fillmore

    Mike,

    Are Democrats like you really humorless and lost your funny bone? My comment was tongue-in-cheek.
    Besides, during MLK’s time, there was greater injustice happening in the US, so what you say doesn’t apply.

    Your whole argument is totally against what MLK stood for cause by your reasoning he should have went to Africa first and done nothing in the U.S. and not stood for his rights in the U.S. since (non democratic countries should have came first)

    Not really. I was simply applying his words to the current situation. He did say those words, didn’t he? And if you want to apply his words to him, go right ahead – I’m not stopping you. In fact, we should encourage critical and logical thinking instead of blindly swallowing what leaders say.

    BTW, what has Green Party got anything to do with this? More illogic from you. I’m an independent and make up my own mind on issues by weighing pros and cons. And even if I were a Green Party member, doesn’t imply I can’t speculate on issues or have a different opinion on certain issues. It’s this kind of thinking (as espoused by your comment) where party members simply blindly follow the party line that causes problems – plenty of Democrat apologists around who are now blaming conservatives for their own disappointment at Obama’s shortcomings. Ha!

    Cheers.

  • Mike

    yes really, amazing from someone that stated a few days ago

    “I am aware of the history, but I don’t like to use history in lieu of facts – each case has to be looked at on its own merit, otherwise we’re simply perpetuating stereotypes.”

    So of course it does, your statement was that we should focus on non-democratic countries before focusing on democratic ones, using MLK to try and prove your point, i only pointed out that if we went with your flawed counter like you stated MLK would had to deal with a non-democratic country before dealing with his own since a non-democratic country would be worst off than the U.S.

    “I’m an independent and make up my own mind on issues by weighing pros and cons”

    oh really do tell? I see no objective in comments regarding Muslims, Arab or any attempt to do so.

    Seeing that your logic is often twisted and you love to ask questions yet dodge them(maybe this makes your feel Superior online where you don’t in reality )maybe :)p

    and you yourself is a proponent of the green party so i would assume like you call all Democrat apologists, that we can assume that you are part of a fridge that criticize but has no ideas and apathetic. Than we can assume that you believe the republicans are doing nothing wrong for democrats to criticize republicans shows your lack of understanding and domestic events, (birthers, brown shirts, party of no) and on and on.

    “Independent”, now that’s funny :)

    seems more like,
    “Superiority complex refers to a subconscious neurotic mechanism of compensation developed by the individual as a result of feelings of inferiority.[1] The feelings of inferiority in this specific complex are often brought on by real or perceived social rejection.”

    again try no to sully MLK name and work to make a absurd points on human rights.

    have a great day :)

  • millard-fillmore

    Mike,

    Lots of assumptions in your above comment. You know what they say about making assumptions, don’t you? ;)

    OK. Let’s compare the following, just for starters.

    1. Gay rights.
    2. Women’s rights.
    3. Rights of non-Muslims.

    Now you can do your research (and I’ve left lots of links in my previous comments as I like to substantiate my words with facts, and seems like you’ve been reading my comments, so you should already know the story, but feel free to do your own research) – that is, if you want to – and use normal and acceptable yardsticks of human rights, and you will come up with a lot more abuses of human rights in Islamic countries today than in democratic ones. Ergo, it follows that those who care about human rights should focus their energies on non-democratic countries first. As I understand the concept, it’s universal human rights, not “human rights in only democratic countries, and we’d rather not do anything in Islamic countries because if we do, our heads will be chopped off”. Safety first, then ideals. ;)

    Unless, of course, you have no compassion for citizens in Islamic countries and you’ve given up on them – let them be stoned and whipped by cruel and misguided men for minor and stupid transgressions, or just for being gay. That probably tells me that you despise Muslims and think they are inferior human beings who cannot live in a democracy and are not receptive to human rights. Why would that be so, Mike?

    BTW, don’t put words in my mouth about “sullying MLK’s name” – I did nothing like that. I see that you have your heroes on pedestals, and are incapable of critical inquiry as certain subjects are taboo for you.

    As for your sentence: “using MLK to try and prove your point, i only pointed out that if we went with your flawed counter like you stated MLK would had to deal with a non-democratic country before dealing with his own since a non-democratic country would be worst off than the U.S.”

    You use logic, and apply that to certain words, and you can figure out the rest. Words do have meanings, unless you consider words as empty rhetoric. And even if MLK had done the same work elsewhere, that wouldn’t have made him a lesser person than he is in my eyes.

    My criticism of Democrats is not a defense of Republicans – for someone who follows my comments closely, this is not the first time I’ve stated this to make it clear where I’m coming from. Please read my previous comment one more time, or twice, or as many times as it takes to sink in.

    This is a very common mistake that people like you make as they operate under two-party paradigm and “either you’re with us or you’re against us” binary thinking. But that’s part-and-parcel, and human nature once you have a certain political identity – you will not like any criticism of that identity, be it Green, Republican or Democrat; your yardstick will keep changing according to the current party position (apologist); and you will find it easier to blame others instead of introspection (e.g. like the Democrats did to Nader after 2000 election, even though facts pointed to Gore and Democrats being overconfident and running a bad campaign, and Gore losing his home state Tennessee, which otherwise would’ve got him the White House). I like to keep my yardstick independent of party identity, and also set my yardstick *before* I decided to give my support to a particular party. And what’s there to not criticize about birthers based on facts? Do I have to take a pledge somewhere that I criticize them, or join in the chorus of name-calling to prove my credentials? No, thanks.

    You’re right. I’m not only a “proponent” (whatever that means) of Green Party, but more parties – both on the left and right of the spectrum, so that voters have more choices and more freedom, instead of voting while holding their noses, for the same two corrupt parties that don’t care a whit about democracy. A liberal and free democracy gives more choices to its citizens, not fewer. So, for example, even though I don’t agree with the stance of Libertarian Party or the Constitution Party and likely wouldn’t vote for their candidates, I would support them to get on the ballot and get into debates, instead of limiting the debate to the two boring candidates from the two major parties. That’s how a democracy works.

    ““Superiority complex refers to a subconscious neurotic mechanism of compensation developed by the individual as a result of feelings of inferiority.[1] The feelings of inferiority in this specific complex are often brought on by real or perceived social rejection.””

    Wouldn’t that be applicable to Democrats when it comes to their relationship with Republicans? And doesn’t that makes you a pot calling the kettle black? Nice try, but no cigar.

  • R.M.

    yes someone is in denial alright (funny ,I agree)

  • Mike

    “Lots of assumptions in your above comment. You know what they say about making assumptions, don’t you? ;)”

    Coming from one that makes them, what do they say dear millard?

    “Wouldn’t that be applicable to Democrats when it comes to their relationship with Republicans? And doesn’t that makes you a pot calling the kettle black? Nice try, but no cigar.”

    ahh nope sorry try again, yes to these radicals on the republican side, moderate republicans, independents, Dems, you name it are all superior to them, people who in there own merits try to tramp on (guess what free democracy). unless you place yourself in the same boat? than i can see why you may think dem’s think there superior to people such as palin, and the far right.

    Republicans the same of dems, (get real) we can see what came from the last 8 years of republican rule(torture, domestic spying, outsourcing to increas share value and stinking of the middle-class income, gaps between rich and wealthy)as i noted in previous post if there a dem i dont like i would vote for him. But it seems you assume all dem’s do.

    Now what was that you were saying bout making assumption? As in your previous post you assume all democrats are corrupt so your willing to support people you do not believe in and a fridge element.(that says alot about yourself):)

    Hey if the republicans go the route they are going you can get your wish of more parties, but the down side to more parties is we can find ourselves like israel where the small radical minority controls and sets policies since 25 percent not 50 of the vote is needed to do such things.

    Again i point out your comments of MLK is absurd, almost as absurd as r.m.

    “BTW, don’t put words in my mouth about “sullying MLK’s name” – I did nothing like that. I see that you have your heroes on pedestals, and are incapable of critical inquiry as certain subjects are taboo for you.”

    of course you did when MLK spoke out it was for people around the world to try and better their countries not (as you put only non-democratic countries first than theirs second) those were your words not mine. my point as MLK would have been you can try and better both.

    I do put MLK on a pedestal if you have a problem with that than it’s your own problem. People as yourself trying to use his words to do nothing to change human rights abuses are in fact sullying everything he stood for “justice for all not some”

    “You’re right. I’m not only a “proponent” (whatever that means) of Green Party, but more parties”

    amazing you agree to something that you state (whatever that means) funny

    As i said in the prior post if your read them that there should be a international standards set in place on war crimes, ethic cleansing, and create a world court that will go after any country that does so.

    As I can see from your posting you do not agree and wish to (is it save) the Muslim world, As you failed to grasp is if a democracy cannot have equal rights for all, and freedoms for all than its as bad as non democratic ones. Assuming your much older the issues of gay rights, womens rights it took the u.s. how long to start allowing for both to have rights? Most gays in the U.S. (republican states) cannot adopt kids, or get married, who even 20years ago could be beaten for being gay, 40 plus years ago you could be killed for being black, jew, gay.

    Maybe this is hard for you to understand but when a democracy is a beacon of light, and shows that everyone is equal, free to speech, religion, and have human rights, people in other countries will fight to have this democracy. (you can read this part over and over again till it settles in you head)

    Your comments stinks of hypocrisy one hand your saying we should focus on non-democratic counties H.R. first before fixing ours than you say we need to fix our 2 party system. Couldn’t the same be said with your ill logical argument that we need to fix’s non Democratic countries politics before fixing our own?

    or is it you really dont care about H.R.? cause either you dont realize your logic is flawed by your own statements or you willfully using the suffering of other for some other motives than what you have presented. Does not human rights and politics go hand and hand?

    Have a great day try not to have that bubble you in pop your you may have to deal with reality ;)”

  • R.M.

    lets see how much coverage the BBC will have about this:

    Mortar shell fired at workers near Kissufim
    Palestinian gunmen strike again Monday, following Qassam and two mortars fired at Israel on Sunday; no injuries or damage reported

    Shmulik Hadad Published: 08.10.09, 17:21 / Israel News

    Palestinian gunmen fired a mortar shell from the northern Gaza Strip into Israel, defense officials said Monday afternoon. The mortar was fired at laborers engaged in engineering works near the border fence. There were no reports of injuries or damage.

    The state of calm maintained in southern Israel in the past few weeks was violated Sunday morning, as a Qassam rocket exploded in an open area near a kibbutz in the Sdot Negev Regional Council. There were no casualties and no damage was caused.

    On Sunday evening, two mortar shells were fired at the Erez crossing on the Gaza Strip border, landing on the Palestinian side. The mortars landed as an ambulance transferring a Palestinian heart patient to Israel passed by. There were no reports of injuries or damage in this incident as well.

    In response to the firing, Israel Air Force jets struck a weapon smuggling tunnel in southern Gaza on Sunday night. The pilots spotted a hit. Hamas sources told Reuters that there had been no injuries in the attack.

  • Mike

    your welcome r.m. ,

    ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8193194.stm

    dont forget

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8180743.stm

    or a systematic attempt to limit arabs israeli freedoms by the governement much like in the U.S. in the 60′s and before against blacks.

    Israel ethic cleansing and discrimination at its finest.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8164755.stm

  • millard-fillmore

    Mike,

    The reason for mentioning the grave human rights abuses in Islamic countries was in response to human rights activists who shed tears and mope over Israel’s human rights abuses but are silent over other abuses, and to show their hypocrisy and double-standards.

    I am not a human rights activist, by any means.

    The issue of improving democracy in the US is a separate issue, and by no means mutually exclusive to the issue of global human rights and injustices. But yes, I prefer to focus on home where I do have a say over how business is conducted and I get to vote, and affairs at home take a higher priority for me than what’s happening half-way around the globe. But if someone else has a different priority and wants to focus on injustice in Islamic countries, I would be the last person to stop them. Mike, I’ll even pay your airfare to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan if you want to go there and work on reducing the injustices to gays, non-Muslims and women. :D

    Democrats are corrupt – no matter how much you and other apologists keep denying it till you are blue in the face. Rod Balgojevich, Mike Finneran, Eliot Spitzer, Salvatore DiMasi, to name a few from recent times. The corruption of Chicago political machinery is well-known. Any politician (like Obama) who takes money from special interests (like from pharma and insurance companies) and then passes laws to favor those special interests over citizens (like ditching single-payer health-care) is corrupt, which means both Democrats and Republicans are corrupt. Keep denying that reality and keep living in your delusional world – can’t really expect much from apologists who vote for Democrats.

  • R.M.

    give me a break ….I think your imagination is running away with you .you little revolutinary you .

  • tmorgan

    Seems like no one wants to talk about Sri Lanka here, Israel-Palestine still enjoys the spotlight. I watched the show on PBS & it was clear that ICC is a work in progress which is avoiding being tied to the U.N. too tightly. Ocampo is doing his best, dealing with issues case by case… more power to him & the ICC. The BS about colonialism & Euro-centric values is not suprising. The Russians, Chinese, Burmese, Sri Lankans, et al who have ethnic conflicts within their borders have all wised up Re: tactics to white wash their crimes against their own citizens who do not share the majority “race” or religion or language. Enlisting the aid of other poor states to back them up is just status quo U.N. behind the scenes chicanery.

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Israel-Gaza conflict heats up. The House votes to sue Obama. Ebola spreads in Africa. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

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In this Wednesday, Oct. 23, 2013 file photo, Luis Mendez, 23, left, and Maurice Mike, 23, wait in line at a job fair held by the Miami Marlins, at Marlins Park in Miami. Increasingly, potential employers are turning to digital content as a way to judge job-seekers before they even apply. (AP)

They see you when you’re sleeping. They know when you’re awake. Employers move to digital assessment in hiring, firing and promotion. We’ll check in.

 
Aug 1, 2014
A close up of newspaper front pages focusing on the Ebola outbreak, including a newspaper, left, reading 'Burn all bodies' in the city of Monrovia, Liberia, Thursday, July 31, 2014. The worst recorded Ebola outbreak in history surpassed 700 deaths in West Africa. (AP)

Israel-Gaza conflict heats up. The House votes to sue Obama. Ebola spreads in Africa. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

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