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Michael Vick: Back in the Game?
Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick (7) scrambles against Washington Redskins safety Sean Taylor (21) and defensive tackle Cornelius Griffin (96) during in December, 2006. (AP)

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick (7) scrambles against Washington Redskins in December 2006. (AP)

Michael Vick was the highest-paid player in the NFL. Now he’s a player without a club, an ex-felon, and an American archetype — a man seeking redemption.

The former Atlanta Falcons quarterback, a number-one draft pick, had one of the most dramatic rise-and-fall acts in sports history. He was a human highlight film. His endorsements were through the roof. Then, he was convicted for his role in a dog-fighting ring.

Now he’s done his time, and a new chapter is set to begin — if the league and the public find a place for a man who says he’s changed.

This hour, On Point: The meaning of the Michael Vick story, and what we bring to it.

You can join the conversation. Tell us what you think — here on this page, on Twitter, and on Facebook.

Guests:

Joining me now from Smyrna, Georgia is Terence Moore, national correspondent at AOL Fanhouse. He spent 25 years as a columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where he had a front row seat to Michael Vick’s career with the Atlanta Falcons.

With us from Port Washington, New York is George Vecsey, sports columnist at The New York Times.

And joining us from Austin, Texas is Leonard Moore, professor of history at the University of Texas, where he teaches a popular course on race, sport, and hip-hop.

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    I don’t follow sports but I caught discussion about this today (the day before this onPoint show) on Talk of the Nation:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=5

    I agree with sportswriter David Zirin: Unlike OJ who got away with murder, Vick was caught, convicted and sentenced. He served his time and if a team wants him he ought to be able to play.

    If we don’t attempt to re-integrate felons who serve their time back into society we’re asking for an even greater spike in recidivism.

  • june silverman

    Mr. Michael Vick should never be allowed on any NFL venue. He abused his dogs, killed them, never was kind to them. His jail time was nothing.
    Maybe he could go to football games as a spectator (maybe not!).
    Call me an animal lover, I think there’s a lot of us.

  • Brad

    The NFL is betting people care more about football than about evil incarnate. The NFL are going to find out the hard way that there are many people who will not forgive Vick and do not want him back in the game.

    Just seeing his face is scary knowing what he did.

    No NFL for me or my kids.

  • Mike

    I agree with Richard, he serve his time and if a team wish to hire him so be it.

    don’t like it, don’t go to his games i recommended as Richard stated above yesterdays talk of the nation about this.

    look forward to listening to the show to sell different view points on this and if serving time for a crime means you done your time or not.

  • wavre

    Frankly, i’ve found his punishment to have been excessive. I’ve seen in previous similar cases, people(mostly white) get away with a fine and probation time,(the right way to handle it, by the way!) not two years in prison! Cruelty to animals is despicable but i’m not for using his status as a sport celebrity to deter and set an example against animal cruelty.The way those cases are handled and the manner those convictions are “secured” (by coaching the testemony of an accomplice of “lesser value” in order to convict the “high profile” one), is Justice at his worst!

    Dog fights as well as coq fights have been for better or for worst, part of a certain tradition in the US, mostly in the south for centuries!!

    I will like to see more outrage when humans are massacred.I like my dogs but i will not hesitate to sacrifice them if the lifes of my worst ennemies depended on it.

  • Kate

    He electrocuted, drowned, and shot those dogs who did not fight,kill or maim one another well enough to suit him. His excuse is that it was due to his immaturity – sounds more like sadism to me. He should be a role model for our kids?

    There are some who would accuse animal lovers of not caring enough about humans simply because we protest outrageous cruelty to other species. That’s because it’s often not considered or dealt with as it should be and we are not going to shut up about it until all human to human cruelty ceases.

  • Expanded Consciousness

    I agree with Richard and wavre.

    Love of animals doesn’t excuse abandoning reason and judgment. Humans trump animals in all cases. If you are against Michael Vick causing animals pain, then surely you are against eating animals. Animals suffer pain when they are slaughtered to become food for us. You can not use the excuse of nourishment, for humans can survive without eating animals. You can not say that you bought the animal carcass at a supermarket and didn’t kill the animal yourself, for that would be like paying someone to murder for you and claiming your innocence. If you are against animals suffering, how do you support Vick suffering? Taking a man’s liberty away for two years is not teaching him compassion or re-educating him (sending him to a class), rather, it is punishing him, inflicting pain and suffering on him. So, you claim to be against animals suffering, yet you yourself cause animals to suffer and support the suffering of a fellow human being. Hypocrites of the highest order!

    It isn’t about suffering, it is about the gain. You’re for animals suffering, if you can gain your enjoyment of the taste of their flesh and you are for humans suffering when their punishment brings you the gain of pleasure. You are only against animals suffering in certain cases when the individual makes a profit, in other cases of an individual or a group of individuals making a profit (farmer, food company, restaurant) you are all for it.

    Humans should always be valued above animals. To place animals above, or equal to, humans is a perversion based on a neurotic inability to relate to your fellow humans, based on a deep-seated and ingrained ambivalence we all feel towards each other and an over-love of animals because they cannot talk back and piss you off (not a real relationship).

    Two years in jail was excessive punishment, when you know that public embarrassment, monetary fines and monetary fines through a short suspension from playing in the NFL would have resulted in Vicks never going back to sponsoring dog-fights.

    The whole civilized notion of paying your dues and returning to society as an upstanding citizen is a belief in redemption. If you are willing to abandon that, you are willing to abandon your humanity.

    Humans and animals are not equals. I support sacrificing animals for advances in medical research to help fellow humans suffer less. Always beware of those who proclaim a certain love, any love (love of animals, here) to mask their sadism that is really what is at work (against a fellow human, in this case). Everyone always has a “love-excuse,” from “tough love” nonsense (usually nonsense) to a “love of God,” the words written in the Bible, tradition, justifying all manner of cruelty and giving a green light to the infliction of suffering.

    When will this country shed it’s puritanical, punishment-loving tradition that is still alive and well today?

    I love it when barbarians demonize others as barbarians. Look into the mirror, for once!

    And, yes. I love animals. I grew up with a dog and cat. I’d volunteer to rehabilitate Vick’s dogs and get them to trust humans again. However, my measured love of animals doesn’t cause me to lose my head.

    Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged!

    Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone!

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    To fine tune my early post on this: I am not anti-animal. My wife and I have a 19 1/2 year old cat who we’ve had since she was a month old. Tough for any domestic animal to live that long unless it’s loved. We love animals and what Vick did to those dogs is vile.

    However, he was caught and punished and he served his time. I think it’s not only unfair but inhumane to continue to punish people socially after they get out of prison.

    It’s hard enough for felons who serve time to get back on their feet once they get out. Yes, it’s up to Vick to prove he’s now a more humane person but it’s also up to us to show him our humanity and give him a chance to prove his.

    Maybe we ought to take what Vick did and apply it to ourselves if we enjoy watching human beings demolish each other for sport.

    I don’t think the “cock-fighting” culture of professional football, hockey, or other contact sports is a good place to find role models for kids.

  • Joe B.

    He’s served his time. Let him play.

  • Expanded Consciousness

    Consider this:

    $$$

    “Unless the position for which Vick is trying to work is directly related to his crime, he should not be barred from it. For example, a person convicted of pedophilia should not be allowed to teach or perform any profession involving children. A person convicted of drug dealing should not be allowed to be a pharmacist, etc. That’s how it works in this country. You cannot just decide that a lucrative profession is off limits when the crime a person permitted has absolutely no bearing on that profession.”

    “The desire to see him out of the NFL has very little to do with fair treatment for his crime, and has everything to do with the fact that you simply don’t want to see him make a lucrative amount of money. If he were to enter the entertainment business and get a lucrative contract, you’d rant about that too. If he became a street sweeper, you would care less.”

    And hunting!

    “It is ok for a politician to shoot down a poor innocent duck to pass the time while Mr Vick gets 2 years in jail?”

    “Would you be this upset if he was caught shooting deer?”

    Should Sarah Palin be prevented from holding office?

    “1) Palin offered a bounty of $150 for each left front leg of freshly killed wolves.

    2) Palin promotes aerial hunting of wolves even though Alaskans voted twice to ban it.

    3) Palin used $400,000 of state money to fund a propaganda campaign in support of aerial hunting.”

    Are you against Vick because he committed an illegal act, or because he committed cruelty, or because he makes a large salary in a capitalistic society?

    “If you are against Michael Vick because he acted illegally, you should give him a second chance (like the other law breakers that are still playing in the NFL). On the other hand, if you are against him because he mistreated and tortured animals, stop eating meat right now unless you have already done so.”

    Ironic that football is a barbaric sport that inflicts suffering (broken limbs, concussions, brain damage, sometimes broken necks and death) on fellow humans for profit ($$$), yet you want him excluded for doing the same to animals. Oh, we decide some unnecessary pain-inflicting is cool and some unforgivable.

    “We claim that once a person does the time for the crime they get to move on, but many ex-convicts have to resort to working under the table because we are not into second chances in this country, regardless of how minor the crime. Now if a student is convicted of using marijuana, they can’t get student loans. How foolish is that? You are young, you make a dumb mistake so you can never have the opportunity to take advantage of a loan for your education. That is creating a class of people who may want to go to college and live a life above board but they have been deprived of that opportunity from our own government. What kind of country is this? No surprise at the high crime rate. The prisons are contracted out. Guess what? The rate of incarceration goes up. Of course if you make jailing people a for-profit opportunity those who benefit will find a way to get as many people incarcerated as possible. They have to answer to shareholders.”

  • Abe

    I think he should be allowed to play. He served 23 months in federal prison. How many months in Dante Stallworth serving for killing a human being? The answer: 1.

    I don’t condone what Vick did. It is disgusting. But he did server his time and has lost all of his personal wealth. He should be able to continue his career and not be punished further.

    I think this might be a case where a negative can be turned into a positive. Now with Tony Dungy as a mentor, he has a real chance to turn his life around and become a positive member of the league.

  • Putney Swope

    The cruelty thing aside, and I’m a dog lover.
    It’s up to the NFL how they want to deal with felons.
    Personally I think they should ban any player for life from profiting from the game if they have been commited of a felony.

    Expanded, while I am very aware of how some slaughter houses are not humanely killing the animals we consume, torturing and killing dogs is not the same thing.
    If was doing this to horses or cows it would be a crime.

    You have an agenda, that’s clear. You said you go to MIT.
    Take a few classes on rational thinking.

    For some reason you think duck hunting or deer hunting (which is necessary to keep the deer populations in check) is on the same level as dog fighting. Deer herds need to be thinned for a host of reasons. In most of this country the big game use ot have predators which took the sick, old and some of the young. This kept the herds healthy. Native Indian tribes hunted them for food. As do people do now. I use to live in Vermont were there is a fair amount of hunting. Most people hunt up there for food.

  • Mary

    I’ve noticed that the way a person treats animals is often an indication of how he or she treats other humans; it is a symptom of a deeper problem. Animal abuse is a serious matter. Yes, he went to jail for it; my question is–has he been rehabilitated for any underlying issues that may have influenced his choice to abuse animals?

  • Gerry

    He has paid his debt to society; unlike those who have butchered innocent little babies -via abortion- any one of which has greater value than an infinite number of dogs.

  • rascallion

    Mike Vick should be made to work as a professional dog walker or dog groomer. Better yet, he should be made to work in a dog food factory, or cleaning up at the dog track or the local pound. Maybe he should be made to work as a roadie for Snoop Dog. I know, I know… let’s put him in a rocket and send him to Sirius, the Dog Star.

    Come on people, the guy served his time. If he wants to try to make a living not getting pummelled by 300 pound linemen, who are we to say he can’t. Are you suggesting some sort of P.C. socialism?

  • Todd

    Expanded Consciousness says:
    “Hypocrites of the highest order!…Everyone always has a “love-excuse,” from “tough love” nonsense…to a “love of God,” the words written in the Bible…justifying all manner of cruelty and…suffering…I love it when barbarians demonize others as barbarians. Look into the mirror, for once! Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged! Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone!”

    Welcome to the “highest order” ExCon! Your cruel rantings cause me to suffer! While I agree with the spirit of most of your rant, perhaps you should also “look into the mirror,” along with the rest of us. You rag on the Bible, using it to “demonize” others in one breath, and then quote it to support your position in next. And you accuse others of being hypocritical?

    A nickel’s worth of free advice: Choose your words carefully; you may have to eat them.

  • http://www.jeffsalzberg.com Jeffrey E. Salzberg

    Reinstating Michael Vick would send the message that we hypocritically hold celebrities to a different standard than that applied to the rest of us.

    Since this is obviously true (as evidenced by the recent outpouring of grief over the death of someone who, had he not been a famous singer, would have been a societal outcast), sure. Why not?

  • http://onpoint Mary

    Vick is part of a growing (unfortunately) sick society that panders to sports figures as “heroes” and our children are watching. What does his returning to the game add to our childrens’ image of these so-called “heroes”? That it is OK to abuse animals? And if that’s OK, then it is OK to abuse humans? It is sad that someone who can kick a ball is regarded more highly than a dedicated, hard working teacher, nurse, social worker, etc. And how sad that he will likely return to the sports field, under the pretense of “apologizing” while laughing all the way to the bank, at our childrens’ expense. And what is sadder is that we allow it.

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    The image of white people sitting in the stands and going ape over two black men beating the crap out of each other in a boxing ring, betting on the outcome and treating these two black men like pit bulls sounds rather familiar, doesn’t it?

    We’re a nation of hypocrites. Let’s change the entire culture.

  • Mark S.

    Speaking as someone who finds professional football, nay most professional sports, about at intellectually stimulating as watching paint dry, I have a new appreciation for why the NFL is sometimes called the “National Felons League.” Remaining pleased as I can be about all the hours of my life I have not wasted on Sundays across the years…

  • edd

    Weighing in as the owner of an extremely friendly and wonderful pit bull, the ramifications of Michael Vick’s actions were felt throughout the country. Although the negativity toward pit bulls and their owners has subsided somewhat over time we were castigated as owners – guilty by association. As I learn more about him, it appears that he has had all the chances he needs. If football takes him back fotball deserves him. Best of luck.

  • RL

    Vick should be allowed to play in the NFL again. He was given a sentence and served it–and that sentence was not for life. I do think, however, that an opportunity was wasted in his sentencing. There are prison programs that train service dogs and part of Vick’s prison time should have been done working for one of these programs. This would have been a chance for him to learn to value dogs and see them as something other than a way to make money through fighting.

  • Joe B.

    Leonard Moore teaches a class in hip-hop at the Univ. of Texas for college credit? What a joke.

  • Danny Crawford

    The point that isn’t brought up here is that Michael Vick wasn’t involved in dog fighting entirely for sport, there was big money involved in gambling on the fights.

    Because of the leverage that a gambler can have held against them to affect the outcome of a game, it isn’t uncommon for illegal gambling to be the cause of a lifetime ban.

  • Benjamin Pearce

    Is your guest joking about cultural allowances? Being able to communicate with other male adults and having the decency not to brutalize animals are central tenets of being civil. Just because the “culture” slavery was accepted for centuries does not make it right. Defending depravity as a part of a culture is not only a weak argument but insulting to a much larger community.

  • Michele

    I’m a dog lover and an avid football fan, so I was torn about Vick’s reinstatement to the NFL. I think his punishment was fair, considering the horrible charges against him. With that said, I think there needs to be a shift in society in our attitudes towards convicted felons. We send people to jail for punishment and rehabilitation in hopes that they will change their behavior. But what message do we send, by refusing to allow them to show that they have changed? In so many instances, these individuals return to their previous activities because society has refused to give them a second chance. And that isn’t beneficial to anyone. I think that if Vick is truly remorseful and can turn this tragedy into something positive, i.e. using his name to speak out against animal cruelty, then I think he should be given a second chance. Society has certainly forgiven NFL players for other offenses, such as accusations of rape, murder, infidelity, sexism, etc.

  • Lorelei

    I was a student at Boston College in the 1980s. While I was there, there was a very big name quarterback football star that was in a class I had. This student did little to no work and slept through class on a regular basis. He passed the course. This student was white.
    My point it that college sports generate money. Talented players that generate event attendance and inspire donations make money and make colleges very, very happy.

  • Cynthia Lover

    I do not believe that Michael Vick should be allowed to resume playing football in the NFL. Participating in dog fighting is a heinous crime, in which participants torture living beings weaker than themselves for their own perverse pleasure. I place it right up there with rape and pedophilia. I can’t imagine that the NFL would allow a convicted rapist or pedophile to participate in the NFL so why would they consider allowing a self-admitted dog fighter.

    The difference between Vick and Stallworth is that Stallworth’s crime was an accident. Vick’s crime was pre-meditated: he purposefully chose to torture innocent animals on a regular basis and viewed the torture as acceptable social entertainment. Do we really want someone who feels that it is amusing and acceptable to watch a dog being set on fire to represent the NFL?

    By not allowing him to play football, you are not preventing him from earning a living. He can go out and earn a living working hard like the vast majority of most Americans, being allowed to return to a multi-million dollar glamorous job is unacceptable.

  • Fletcher Moore

    Leonard Moore is one of the worst guests I’ve heard on On Point for a long while. Half of what he says doesn’t make sense, and the other half is just plain wrong.

    Case in point: he says Pete Rose can’t play baseball anymore, and therefore his ban is meaningless. Does Moore know that players can manage after their careers are over? Does he know that Rose managed? Does he know that Rose wants to manage?

    This is one example out of many. Moore’s answers are glib, and he glosses over everything that fails to support what he’s there to say. What a bore.

  • Rob G.

    This is a tough one. The basic idea of allowing someone to be “redeemed” is fundamental to our society. On the other hand what he did is clearly unforgivable.

    The posts about human suffering or different treatment for other players who have other offenses are irrelevant. There is only one case under consideration here — Michael Vick. I don’t understand why mistakes or Solomonic judgments about other players are being raised. They’re not instructive.

    Likewise, the idea that a dog’s life being worth more than an African-American life is irrelevant and absolutely ludicrous. No one could possibly explain the twisted logic that could lead one to place those two clauses in the same sentence. The two concepts have nothing to do with each other. No one has suggested that we have fights to the death between African-Americans.

    Any sort of animal cruelty is despicable, beyond imagination. We as a society are coming to a recognition of our responsibilities with respect to animals. Hunting is gradually, and thankfully, disappearing. A hundred years from now, people will view this practice with the same disbelief we express toward slavery or witchcraft. I’m in a minority, but I suspect that eventually all meat-eating will also disappear. Cruelty at any level is unacceptable.

    So, do we give Michael Vick another chance? First, he’s had a lot of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and more chances. He’s not exactly an exemplary human being who had one stumble. His whole life off the field has been pretty sick. This isn’t a guy most people would care to hang out with.

    However, he can probably be a money-maker for any team that picks him up, his personal life notwithstanding. I imagine this will be the deciding factor. I can tell you though, if he ever ended up on the Patriots, I’m going to have to change my loyalties. That’ll be my last trip to Foxboro.

    Ultimately, the decision probably should go against him. Dog fighting is supposedly a part of his “culture.” If this is the case, there’s no better place to tell someone who thinks dogfighting is ok that they’re just plain wrong. This practice is unacceptable in ANY culture. If someone doesn’t know that now, let the education begin.

    Let’s use Michael Vick to make this point.

  • http://www.richardsnotes.org Richard

    Jacki, you gave short shrift to the caller who talked about ex-cons having a hard time getting work. That’s the most important point of this conversation.

    Maybe the solution is to let Vick play, help him get big endorsements, and strongly suggest that a good piece of the money he generates goes to PETA and/or other animal protection groups.

    However, given that he’s served his time, I would never support forcing him to do that.

  • animal rescuer

    Vick should be allowed to reenter his profession. He served his sentence.

    However, I totally disagree with the “culture of black youth” excuse! “Black youth” didn’t appear out of the jungle yeSterday morning – they are AMERICAN CITIZENS EDUCATED IN THE UNITED STATES AND ABSOLUTELY KNOW BETTER THAN TO TORTURE ANIMALS. FURTHERMORE, IT’S AGAINST THE LAW!!!

    As far as the difference between Vick’s ongoing, deliberate and many-times repeated cruelty and even deliberate murder in horrible ways of helpless and captive animals,(their “crime” being the one of faillng to kill their opponents in the vicious sport of dogfighting) and the death of a man caused by another athlete which was not deliberate, not repetitive, decidedly not intentional murder, the penalties as such are 1) within legal parameters 2) reasonably fair. The penalty in MA could have been 5 years!

  • http://dizzysdogwash.com Lynn

    As a person who makes their living in the pet care industry and who also supports of variety of rescue groups, I would like to know what kind of restitution has or will Michael Vick make toward the pit bull rescue community to demonstrate to the general populous that he realizes what harm he has done? If reinstated in the NFL, what portion of his net salary will he donate to pit bull recovery and rehabilitation? I can promise you, if Michael Vick doesn’t take some stand and demonstrate that he has reformed then when he comes to play in my community I will personally work to rally all of the animal rights groups to demonstrate against him. The NFL needs to address our concerns.

    If dog fighting is a cultural issue then that cultural needs to change. Violence begets violence.

  • Putney Swope

    Leonard Moore teaches a class in hip-hop at the Univ. of Texas for college credit? What a joke.

    Joe B why is that? Would it be a joke if the course was on Swing music and Juke Joints? How about the blues?

    Hip Hop is a cultural phenomenon which is why it’s anything but a joke to offer a class on this.

    Fro your information it’s called Sociology, the study of society.

  • Sean

    I don’t think anyone should be branded with a “scarlet letter” their entire life, IF they’re truly contrite for their mistake. But, the assurance that Vick is sincerely contrite, and for the right reason, seems to be in doubt.

  • Heidi

    Professor Moore should not be allowed to corrupt the minds of young people under the guise of educating them. How in the world can he be in an environment where he should be educating young people, but telling them that they will never be accepted unless they are athletes or entertainers? Is he serious? As long as there are people like him playing the victim and teaching others to do the same, our nation will never get past our outward differences.

  • Todd

    Joe B. says: “Leonard Moore teaches a class in hip-hop at the Univ. of Texas for college credit? What a joke.”

    I’ll 2nd that!

  • Mary

    I have worked in rescue at a tough municipal shelter, which at any given time is 80-90% full of pit bulls.

    The argument that dog fighting is defensible as a “cultural” activity is weak. As currently practiced, it is a very new activity. Old-style dog fighting, for which the breed originated, wasn’t a nice thing, but it was a bit more innocuous: it was not intended to be fights to the death, and losers were not summarily killed in a barbaric manner. The dogs weren’t regularly neglected, starved, drugged, forced to mate, or denied vet care. The dogs were also smaller- 30-35 lbs- current fighting dogs have been interbred with mastiffs and other larger breeds.

    Another huge difference is human aggression is not an acceptable breed trait- the dogs would fight with people standing right in the middle of the ring untouched. Many of the dogs we’re seeing now, even though some of them are managing to retain their sweet dispositions, are being bred and conditioned to be extremely human-aggressive.

    Also, people who don’t necessarily fight but want a ‘tough’ dog get puppies, realize they can’t handle them or lose interest, and they end up in the pound at about 1 year with almost no training or socialization, often not even housebroken. In a way, any popular breed suffers the same curse, but the volume and severity of the pitbull problem is unprecedented. Fighting is largely underground, but this spinoff issue is enormous and right in our faces, probably responsible for the majority of the pits clogging pounds across the country. The people involved in fighting and irresponsible breeding inspire the breed-specific legislation, and everyone else suffers.

    These are all developments of the last 20 or so years, so it’s hard to make an argument that they are significantly ingrained as a part of a culture. Additionally, it crosses racial lines pretty freely; pretty much every race in represented the city where I worked was implicated in this context at some point, and there is even some economic diversity.

    Not to mention, it’s a felony in most states. Period.

    I don’t really care about the NFL. I know politicians lose their careers for much less depraved sexual and financial indiscretions- maybe the NFL should codify for itself standards that are specific enough to be useful.

    I do agree his sentence was comparatively harsh, but that is because enforcement of dog fighting laws is extremely lax, almost everywhere, so, really, something like his sentence should be the standard. Animal control departments of most cities are underfunded and losing more funding every day- when budgets get cut, homeless pets can’t complain, so it’s the first place they look. And most cities and towns make the animal control officer (ACO) position one of low skills and low pay. Not only are they dealing with dangerous animals and situations, they also almost always run into the drug trade when they investigate dog fighting. It would take a LOT of selfless altruism, and possibly a death wish, to do that with almost no training, no prerequisite of experience relevant to the job, and for 13 bucks an hour, and when you’re working overtime or trying to do double work in half the time because of staff cuts. We need more efforts where ACOs are fully police officers (like “Animal Cops” in NY) or more cooperation between ACOs and the police to tackle both problems simultaneously (as they do in Baltimore). And one would hope they would pursue all races, cultures, and classes equally.

  • LinP

    Just imagine yourself in the company of Michael Vick as he electrocuted, tortured, and killed those animals. Think of yourself right there, watching him do that. You still think he should play in the NFL? Someone like that should be rewarded with fame, money, celebrity, and a following? Nyet for me. I have trouble thinking there is any real remorse there. Animal abusers are missing that piece of humanity, and what he did was beyond abuse.

  • Sam

    As a child growing up I knew many people involved in the practice of breeding and fighting pitt bulls. I am not saying that it is right or justifiable. I just want to emphasize that each person’s experience with this issue varies. These are dangerous animals that require permits in several states. One actually attacked my brother when he was a toddler and tore off his finger. This incident occurred on a leisurely Sunday stroll down the street in my neighborhood. My father had to choke it to stop the dog from attacking my other brother and mother. A police officer threatened to arrest him if he didn’t let go. People are more important than dogs. I own a small dog but I do not believe people should breed violent dogs unless they are used in a guard dog capacity; not as pets. Live with it. Stop breeding dangerous, violent dogs and perpetuating the stereotypes associated with them.

    Michael Vick was caught up in this negative culture. He was punished for this crime and I hope he was enlightened as a result. Many people don’t trust convicted criminals but they seem to celebrate people who settle civil suits. Kobe Bryant is the perfect example of an athlete who got away with hurting a human being and then won a championship so all seemed to be forgiven. Our society needs to evaluate how they elevate one human above another based on class status. Vick should be able to play if others can hurt human beings and still play under our current set of moral/legal standards.

  • Mike

    just to point out about still tensions between blacks and police, law enforcement

    http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/30/gates-arrest-slur-2

    Boston Police To Address Officer’s Racial Slurs

    An Undercover Cop, Brutally Beaten, Revealed Racial Divide In Boston

    http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/30/the-fence

    atleast this did not happen to vick,

  • Mike

    funny thing is this happen in the north, most liberal state not the south.

    I see vick playing football in a few months, if he wins then there be little outrages and this will fade, but if he losses that the story will go on.

  • JB

    I really disagreed with Leonard Moore’s repeated excuse of animal abuse/torture as “cultural.” The logic carried to its exclusion doesn’t make sense–you could say human murder is ‘cultural’ in some circles, that doesn’t make it right or unpunishable. Equal treatment for all under the law, right?

    My family history includes dirt-poor Polish immigrant laborers in the 1920s who I know from my uncle engaged in dogfighting. Would that be a legitimate excuse if I were caught doing it today? I don’t think so.

    Also, I’m pretty sure New Mexico and Louisiana have since outlawed cockfighting, contrary to his claims.

    I think it takes a dark soul to do what Michael Vick did to dogs, or any living creature. What wasn’t mentioned in this broadcast was that he will be working with the Humane Society of the United States to combat urban youth dogfighting. It remains to be seen if this is genuine or just a PR stunt, but he could be a real asset, so I’m actually inclined to let him have his 7th chance in the NFL…(as long as it’s not with the Pats!)

  • Roberta Schwalbe

    I agree, Michael Vick has to be an evil man to do what
    he did to those dogs. He never should be rewarded by
    allowing him to play footbal again.

  • Robert Canada

    I want to throw out a couple of thisngs before I make my comment. 1. I am africain american and 2 I don’t agree to what Michale Vick did. I heard a gentelmen on the show suggest that Vick maybe shouldn’t have been convicted, and that because of lack of cultural understanding by white sports journalist that Vick is getting no sympathy from the public. I have never heard so much bulls–t in my life. Vick got what he deserved, and as far as I’m concerned he didn’t serve enough time. Dog fighting maybe popular in the African American community but it doesn’t make it right.
    We as African Americans should not be defending this. Vick should have known better being in the postion he was in. I find it funny that the someone would even defend him, and knowing that if Vick is willing to torture and kill an animal that he would have no problem harming anothe human being. Vick made a choice and a bad one, and if he doesn’t get picked up by a team this season it’s his own fault.

  • wavre

    To all the “Tough on crimers, no redemptionners”

    Check this:Al Gore,Clinton, Obama,Bush and the rest of you, have probably one time or another smoke marijuana and some even snif cocaine! But you were not caught and for some “privileged ones”, the police was looking the other way.

    Now everyone is a “role modele”, when our poor youth is being lock-up and criminalized unnecessarely for the same action???(incarceration has become a huge business!)

    Hypocrites!!!

  • Mark S.

    Excuse me, wavre, but you can take you “hypocrites” assertion and put it somewhere. There is no moral equivalence between toking a little weed in one’s youth and torturing and killing animals by forcing them to mutilate one another or killing them (electrocution is not “euthanizing”) like turning out a light. And as far as “cultural sensitivity” is concerned, to hell with that. The blind subservience to cultural sensitivity makes the weak-minded unable to acknowledge that some practices of other cultures are simply bad, backward or evil, kinda like female circumcision or honor killings in South Asia.

    As to this “he done his time” crap that some are spouting. In case you didn’t know it, many organizations still include a “morals clause” as a part of their employment contracts. That means that even if your behavior is borderline in a legal sense you can be dismissed for improper behavior. Don’t know if the NFL has one, but I doubt it. If they did it would mean a lot of games forfeited due to non-attendance of large percentages of some teams.

  • Jim

    i’m sorry. but the question about whether the public can give Michael Vick a second chance is pure hypocrisy. if this country does not treat dogs as first class citizens and many men/women/children second or third class citizens, we would not have this discussion. there are more serious issues to discuss in this country than forgiving michael vick. i can forgive him either way. but ask me if i can forgive Dick Cheney of committing treason and attempting to destroy a CIA agent’s career, and you will NOT see me throw my indifference hat on that issue!

  • Expanded Consciousness

    While we encourage a robust, open debate on the topic at hand, these comment threads are moderated by On Point and WBUR, and we may delete comments that we judge to be off-topic, unduly repetitive, or that descend into personal, ad hominem attacks.

    “You said you go to MIT.
    Take a few classes on rational thinking.”

    Posted by Putney Swope, on July 30th, 2009 at 9:39 am EDT

    Putney – Again you violate OnPoint’s explicit rules. Again you make ad hominem attacks. Again you can get nothing right, I never wrote I went to MIT in response to your ad hominem attack that I must be a lawyer.

    “Expanded, while I am very aware of how some slaughter houses are not humanely killing the animals we consume, torturing and killing dogs is not the same thing.”

    Never said it was the same thing.

    “For some reason you think duck hunting or deer hunting (which is necessary to keep the deer populations in check) is on the same level as dog fighting.”

    Never said it was on the same level.

    My point was obvious. For those who overreact to Vick’s crimes by positioning themselves as against the infliction of pain on sentient beings should temper their response by acknowledging that they support slaughter houses, hunting (all hunting isn’t done to fight overpopulation, much is for the pleasure of the kill), and violent professional sports. Putting Vick in context would temper those who call him “evil incarnate” and try and say he is just a hair’s breadth away from being a sociopath and torturing human’s (which amounts to convicting him of a crime he didn’t commit, but you fantasized him committing).

    Todd -

    “You rag on the Bible, using it to “demonize” others in one breath, and then quote it to support your position in next. And you accuse others of being hypocritical?”

    It isn’t ragging on the Bible to acknowledge the fact that much cruelty has been perpetrated in its name and that it encourages us-versus-them splitting. Just as it isn’t hypocritical to lift a line or an insight out of a work of fiction (The Bible) that has a lot of things wrong with it. Things aren’t all or nothing.

    “nickel’s worth of free advice: Choose your words carefully; you may have to eat them.”

    The only thing I’m going to go eat right now is a burger, but I’m not going to lie to myself, instead I acknowledge that the animal did suffer pain when slaughtered and I am supporting that with money.

  • Richard Ledgister

    Why does one football player get two years in prison for killing and abusing dogs, and another gets a mere 30 days for driving drunk resulting in the death of a human being?

  • Jonathan Rosenstein

    I was very offended by Dr. Moore’s flippant excusing of dogfighting as “just part of the culture”. That is really sad and disgusting if it is true and if it is accepted as such by a professor in a major university that is even sadder. That said, I believe is despicable as the acts that Michael Vick convicted, he did his time and should be allowed to return to his profession.

  • nadine rastelli

    while I am not excusing his behavior, I have always been so amazed at how hypocritical we are as a society, that we are pikcing out this particular person out, when you look at all of the stories we have heard about so many other players, agents, coaches and all of the bad things they’ve done, we would probably have to shut down spectator sports as we know and all start wathcing badmitton, since most of these guys not be able to play just like Vick. He has paid his dues, let him play.

  • Thomas Patrick

    Michael Vick is a convicted criminal. The NFL has no dignity or standards allowing him to play.

  • Thomas Patrick

    Furthermore, not only did he engage in dogfighting, but he tortured them (electrocution) drowned them, then put bullets in the heads of these dogs.

    He is sadistic.
    Period.
    Representative of the worst of society. The most shame is upon the NFL, though, for excusing this behaviour in the name of commerce.

  • wavre

    Am i being censored because i have made the comparaison of our leaders admitted drug use(felony)and the action of Vick(felony)? Him being demonized when the others are refered to as “role modeles”??

    This baby-boom generation famous for their drug use of all kind and experimentations,is really the most hypocritical.

    You can censor this comment as well, or is it another overload of the system?

  • http://n/a Zak Mettger

    Defending Michael Vick’s behavior because it’s part of black culture (a highly questionable claim), as Terrence Moore did, is no defense at all. In many cultures around the world, female genital mutilation remains an accepted practice. Some acts are so abhorrent that they cannot be defended on any grounds. Animal fighting — whether of dogs, roosters, or bears — is such an act and should be banned.

    Nor do I agree with the guest who lumped Vkck’s involvement in dog fighting with other “bad” or illegal behaviors by athletes such as substance abuse. As humans, we supposedly have free will and some measure of control over our behavior. Dogs and other animals don’t; they are at are mercy, which makes the burden on us to treat them humanely even greater.

    Finally, while I’m glad Vick was punished for his crimes, I would rather the judge had sentenced him to spend 2 years working in an animal shelter or with a police unit investigating animal cruelty. Such an experience would have had a better chance at changing his views than hard time and would have cost taxpayer a whole lot less.

  • Richard Johnston

    “What I did was immature and I need to grow up” is neither an apology nor a lesson for young men. This animal will never be a proper role model. If you want to let him get back in the game, fine, but you will regret it when he does something else antisocial.

  • Anthony Cockerham

    Your guest’s comment about dog fighting being part of the African american culture is ridiculous.

    This is an illegal activity. One should not believe that any illegal activity should be just a part of ANY culture.

    I cannot believe your guest would say this is just a part of “african american culture” and believe this to be a valid point.

    This offends me as a human being.

  • Richard Johnston

    Speaking to the issue brought by the caller who is a criminal defense lawyer: no one is saying this guy should not be allowed to get a job. He has paid his debt and should be able to take legal employment. The particular job that for better or worse is a role model for young men is not suitable.

  • Daisy Inu

    Terrence Moore needs to expand his notion of what manhood and masculinity is. Braids, jewelry, entourages and cock-fighting? No woman in her right mind would want anything to do with a man who is so invested in strutting a faux image of manhood.

    And it is beyond lame to defend dog fighting (and cock fighting which surprise – surprise is legal only in two of the most racist and poverty stricken states in the country) There are many places that defend the indefensible practice of honor killing by playing the culture card. What he did to those dogs was not only horrific for the dogs, but it dehumanizes any person who touches it and participates in it.

    That said, I don’t have any problem with Vick playing pro-football if the team wants him…I believe that once a criminal has served their sentence they should not be barred from participating in life.

  • Walter Fox

    Although the killing of dogs is completely deplorable, Michael Vick never killed a human being! However Donte Stallworth of the Cleveland Browns and Leonard Little of our St. Louis Rams were both involved in traffic incidents that killed PEOPLE. Both of the latter received NO jail or prison time for the incidents they were involved in. And it is especially interesting that Stallworth hit the pedestrian earlier this year LONG AFTER the Vick incident came to light. Let’s keep things in perspective: Dogs, Human beings.

    W. Fox
    St. Louis, MO

  • T. Komarmy

    I am disturbed by the use of ‘culture’ or ‘tradition’ as an excuse for cruelty towards animals (or any other living being). Dog fighting and the brutalization, torturing and murder of animals being a part of Michael Vick’s culture is not an excuse and in no way makes this a lesser crime. Why lower the bar so much? Why speak as though black culture is so victimized that any behavior is acceptable or excusable? Tradition or culture does NOT make cruelty and violence towards animals, women, blacks, or children acceptable ON ANY LEVEL. I am disappointed at how unreflective the guest on air is, at least in the opening 30 minutes. Whether Michael Vick plays football or not, he is no hero, and is not a person anyone in a civilized society should look up to, or make excuses for.

  • Vera Karelian

    I have been listening to your news and broad cast for years and I have never heard such a one sided discussion in favor of Vick and so many bold faces lies and a glossing over of Vick’s torturing of those helpless
    animals. This is indicative of why we as a civilization are on a downward spiral …nobody wants to look at the real truth of the matter…because so much money is
    involved. I am very disappointed in NPR regarding this show.

  • Mark S.

    Let’s get one thing straight. Culture is crap, especially when used as an excuse for cruelty, murder and other aberrations. A blind, mindless allegiance to “culture” as a justification for idiotic, irrational behavior or fantastical mysticism (i.e. religion) and other aberrations is a sop clung to by those incapable of critical thinking. Dog fighting, bull fighting, honor killings, stonings and beheadings by the religious police in Saudi Arabia and other retrograde behaviours are simply stupid, immoral in a rational, humanistic sense, and evil. “Culture” and “tradition” are mind traps for people who can’t think beyond their own brain cramps. Vick cannot be excused on arguments based on “culture” any more than he can be excused based on arguments based on “shoe size.” Both are about as relevant.

    And Wavre. Light up a joint and chill…

  • Susan Zenier

    Here’s an idea…playing at the elite level: NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL requires that all convicted felons are GONE.
    That’s the message that needs to be given at training camp, some actions will NOT be tolerated. For the teams/spectators/sponsors…are we willing to lower ourselves below the Roman spectacles?

  • http://diaryofmydivorce.blogspot.com/ Payton
  • Carlie Jimenez

    This is not a personal attack. It is a comment for the producers to consider for future On Point programs. While I think that Jacki Lyden is a fine journalist, she is not skilled at moderating a show like this. When a ‘fill-in’ is needed, On Point has access to a number of very good people – one of whom is Jane Clayson. It was uncomfortable to hear Jacki invade the discussion with her comments and interviewing techniques – similiar to the way Juan Williams did when he briefly moderated Talk of the Nation – cutting people off, invalidating caller’s comments, audibly nervous (breathing into the mic when rushing the talker to a conclusion). Maybe she was called at the last minute and did this as a favor – then, I say ‘Thank you, great job’, but don’t make it a regualr thing.

  • Expanded Consciousness

    “On Point has access to a number of very good people – one of whom is Jane Clayson. It was uncomfortable to hear Jacki”

    True enough on Jacki. Yet, Jane Clayson is often uncomfortable to listen to. Lacks charm.

  • michael sangree

    who among us has not electrocuted a dog or two as we’ve made our way through life?

  • Expanded Consciousness

    “who among us has not electrocuted a dog or two as we’ve made our way through life?”

    A dog! A dogie! Unconscienable! Vick shoulda got the death penalty. But Palin blowing out the brains of a wolf. Awesome! You go, girl! Presidents spilling out the guts of a quail. Cool! Look at it fall to the ground! Slaughter houses slicing off the head of a living cow, so you can down your cholesterol-filled burger. Gotta have it my way!

  • Judith Jacobs

    I tuned into the broadcast in time to hear one of the commentators, who I am pretty sure was black, attempt to diminish Mr. Vicks’ cruelty by referring to the fact that in South Carolina and Louisiana, cock fighting is still legal. (Ergo, if cock fighting is legal in two states, how bad can dog fighting be, really?)
    All due respects to the South, where I’ve lived from time to time; but for a black man to use South Carolina and Louisiana as models for how a civilized society should conduct itself is shameful. If he finds these states’ cock fighting statutes to be acceptable, presumably he finds the Jim Crow and other racist laws that held sway in these states for over a century to be acceptable as well.
    The commentator is either not very bright, or he is a bloody hypocrite.

  • saints fan

    One question to all of the hypocrites out there saying Vick shouldnt play again… Whats the difference between Micheal Vick killing a innocent animal, and another NFL player who goes into the woods with a SHOTGUN and kills an innocent animal??? yeah thats right whats the difference between hunting-shooting innocent bears and deer and shooting a dog??? Im not saying Vick isnt wrong. He is most definetly wrong and deserved everything that happened, however I also think Jared Allen should get the same treatment. He shoots and kills innocent bears. Oh but thats alright. I dont hear any outrage from the public or peta on this one.

  • Algonquin J. Calhoun

    I’m a lifelong football fan and can’t remember when football players went from being entertainers to being socially-conscious paragons of virtue not to be tainted by felons within their profession.

    To paraphrase Judith Jacobs above, “I read her comments and I am pretty sure she is liberal…but for a liberal to use dogfighting crimanals as models for how a civilized society should (handle ex-felons)is shameful.”

    And I’m sure Ms. Jacobs can’t figure out why liberal is a dirty word to many moderates, who wonder why a man who was tried, judged guilty and served a term in prison for that crime should be denied potential employment in a field in which he can succeed?

    Would dog-loving Vick-haters prevent him from being a stockbroker?…car dealer?…florist?…hairdresser?

    Exactly what profession should Mr. Vick be allowed to follow?

    If felons are not allowed to return to mainstream society, we are establishing a permanent class of potential recitivists, where a Michael Vick would have to go back to the exact ‘business’ that had him put in jail!

    Wake up! Football is entertainment, Vick paid his debt to society, if any team thinks he can help their team, he will gain employment and can go back to being a mainstream member of society.

  • http://diaryofmydivorce.blogspot.com Payton

    This song always reminds me of Jeff, he just LOVED Patti Page. I still can’t believe that he’s gone. Some days all I do is lie here and think about my brother. The food lady had the big loud box on and I think I overheard someone saying that Mike Vick should be playing football again before long. I don’t understand that at all.

    Oh sure, I’ve heard them say that “people are more important than dogs” and I guess they’re right, after all, they’re the people. But it seems to me that there are some really good dogs and some very bad people. Jeff was one of the digginest dogs ever.

    Madone… dogs don’t have remedies that people do…simply by virtue of the opposable thumb thing. (That’s OK, we coulda had it, we traded it in for loyalty.) Thumbs…as every dog knows, are required to dial 911. With them, people can also sue each other for half of everything they own…or more! They can lock themselves up! They can even escape to shelters, read the street signs and drive the indoor couch on wheels.

    We dogs…huh…we’re pretty much at the mercy of every human being’s decency…whether they be on a national stage or in some secluded basement in the Virginia countryside. Don’t people understand that it’s their DECENCY that we’re guarding? Without it, we’re all truly humped.

    Whether it be by serendipity or a Godlike Creator, the humans have claimed dominion over all the planet and we dogs are a part of that planet. If Mike Vick had kicked a single condor egg, the world would be up in arms…and rightly so. But he didn’t. He just created an atmosphere of dread and doom for all of dogkind. So much so that parents use the Mike Vick story to teach pups not to wander. It’s not like WE’RE endangered, so no one speaks up for any one dog too much. I guess they figure, “Hey, dogs eat trash, we can treat them as such.”

    And as for that schmuck Mike Vick…I don’t want to hear that “he’s done his time” anymore. Yeah, he did…they let him out didn’t they? So what’s your bonin point? I wasn’t on that committee. And you know…I don’t even begrudge the man a chance to earn a living. But life is tough for everyone right now…let him do what all ex-cons do…weld stuff. He shouldn’t be given a job where he gets so much of what it was that he killed my brother for AND hero status as well. And, one thing I’ve found from my time on this Earth is that people, like dogs…are either good or bad. Unless some craziness happens, good people don’t turn bad and bad people don’t turn good. People may learn to modify their behavior but their hearts don’t change.

    Before people came along, we dogs were happy to roam the planet, free and in control of our own destiny’s. People wanted us to provide and maintain security systems for them and we’ve done a scrappin good job of it. Even some bitchy people get some Alpo-lishious guardians pets in their dogs. It’s not easy to get the instinct to protect people outta one of us…I wonder what it takes to get the decency outta one of them?

    Jeff…May You Rest In Peace

    Payton

  • http://tami-diaryofamadwoman.blogspot.com/ Tami

    Michael Vick makes me sick. Highest paid athlete in the NFL, and he has to abuse animals, and make a buck on killing, maiming, abusing them. Mr. Vick, I used to be a fan, Mr. Vick, My son was a fan..
    Mr. Vick, truly I am truly sick by your actions. You’re only sorry because you got caught.

    And another thing there is a BIG difference between killing a DOG, and going hunting in the woods.
    Do you EAT YOUR DOG? Or do you eat the deer meat you shot and killed.
    There is no comparison.

    Do you have a feast of Dog meat? or a feast of deer meat. If that’s the case then I seriously think you’re living in the WRONG COUNTRY.

  • Expanded Consciousness

    Tami – “And another thing there is a BIG difference between killing a DOG, and going hunting in the woods.
    Do you EAT YOUR DOG? Or do you eat the deer meat you shot and killed.”

    Huh? Most hunters do not eat their prey. Hunting is for fun! Period. The pleasure of the kill. Look at the bullet go into it’s head! Good shot! Hunting isn’t for survival. Hunters know where the supermarket in town is located. Palin doesn’t eat wolves. Bush doesn’t eat quail.

    So, according to you, all would be cool if only Vick had eatin’ the dogs. Fried up a little doggie burger. It’s not the killing part that you have a problem with, just the fact that there wasn’t a cookout.

    You Vick-haters are such sheep. If society says the rules are such that it is OK to kill animals if it called hunting, then you are cool with it. OK, sheep.

  • justanother

    To me, sport / canned hunting, animal cruelty for entertaining, and profiting making , including inhumane treatment for life stock are all WRONG! 2 wrongs, 3 wrongs whatever you want to name them, don’t make any wrong RIGHT!

    Just because we eat meat doesn’t make us “evil”, it is out of “survival” and a diet since human step foot on this earth. Just because we eat meat doesn’t justify cruelty and abuse of any life. Any skilled hunters either by human or animals do want to kill their pray instantly, then prep them properly, that way meat are fresh. Now that is called “hunting” for survival. Same things goes to treating life stock. So we owe it to ourselves to be an activist on issues of how they kill life stock in slaughter house, and support organic life stock.

    Expanded Consciousness, you call some people hypocrites who purely speak out of their merciful good intention toward innocent animals, even if at times we do forget where and how our meat we eat come from, but they didn’t “choose” to act cruelty and abuse, they didn’t choose the way how slaughter house should operate. Your debate between the difference smudges the lines of merciful intention. But your provocations does do some good, which wakes people up and promotes awareness of how we should kill our life stock in a humane way. Lots of old cultures performed rituals while killing animals with respect of their food source.

    I was exposed to animal cruelty environment in my childhood, instead of accepting it as a “culture” thing, I fought against it when I was a kid. I believe how you choose to treat animals is in your conscience even if animal abuse is accepted by the people around you. So this fancy culture excuse does not fly. Especially you are talking about an “adult”, who doesn’t need to survive by fighting dogs or any other animals.

    Let’s face it, Michael Vick tends to have brutal personality. One can only blame the upbringing childhood for that much, the rest of their actions are their conscious choice which is driven by their true personality deep down. He needs a long rehabilitation in life, not just 2 years of prison life. We all grew up being penalized in some way by our parents and teachers, that’s how we learn and correct ourselves, so don’t tell me penalty is not necessary, it is, but only to certain extend. If people really care about his talent, they should help and lift him by what it means to be a decent being, and only measured by his exterior success on one single category. And again, is it possible to change when you go back to the very same environment NFL again?

    When people really believe we are more important and superior than other animals, this is where the trouble begins. It is the same thing when you believe in class and slavery, or is it not?

  • justanother

    correction to my last post —-

    *****If people really care about his talent, they should help and lift him by what it means to be a decent being, and only measured by his exterior success on one single category*****

    I meant to say If If people really care about his talent, they should help and lift him by “DEMONSTRATING” what it means to be a decent being, and “NOT” only measured by his exterior success on one single category.

    Thank you

  • justanother

    I meant “prey” not “pray”, sorry.

  • Marc

    A course in hip hop?? If I had a cushy gig like that, I’d also do my best to convince people that racism is everywhere.

    BTW, is there any failing of african american’s that’s not the fault of someone else?

    Let Vick play if someone will take him. I’m a dog lover and think he’s a creep. But he’s done his time. However, I don’t think I’ll watch any team that he’s a part of. Yeah, I know he doesn’t care.

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