I really think the best way to get people to change the way they eat is to teach people to cook. I never learned, really, until last year or so – and I’m 30 years old. I shop totally differently now, buy far less prepackaged food – I buy vegetables fruits meat and ingredients, not whole meals in a box.

I did have cooking class way back in 7th grade – for one half semester. I wish it was a lot more. And I wouldn’t be surprised if kids these days didn’t have any instruction at all.

This conversation is fascinating and horrifying at the same time. How can we take control back, and make sure we’re consuming the best of the basics while balancing the need to minimize preparation time?

It’s an interesting paradox that the most highly processed foods are cheaper than fresh fruit, vegetables, and meat. For my kids’ school functions, I always bring fruit salad. It costs upward of $30 dollars to feed a group of kids, where buying cookies costs just a few dollars.

If dopamine release is increased as a consequence of eating fats, sugars and salt, then presumably the brain’s reward system is activated in all individuals. What neurogenic dysfunction exists that keeps people from controlling the quantity and types of food they eat?

I try to listen to my body, my stomach. If I don’t hear it growling, I know I’m not hungry. Though I may want food I tell myself I don’t need it. It’s about will power & desire. You have to want to be healthy.

I appreciate the humor of the music behind your first segue … Pink Floyd’s “Sheep”.

I agree totally with Dr. Kessler. Some years ago, I noticed that, after eating certain prepackaged foods, especially something like Lean Cuisine, I was RAVENOUS (rather than feeling satisfied). Then, about 10 years ago, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, for which my doctor prescribed several different drugs. Rather than taking them, I decided to look at my diet and to make observations after eating certain foods.

I noticed that prepackaged foods, bottled sauces, most fast foods, deli meats, foods with added sugar, salt and preservatives brought on this hunger…and the symptoms of fibromyalgia.

I now eat almost exclusively freshly-prepared foods (that I cook), and almost no prepared foods. All my fibromyalgia symptoms have disappeared, and my hunger is now normal.

However, if I’m travelling and have to eat fast foods, after a couple of days, all those symptoms reappear.

So thanks, Dr. Kessler! I hope people pay attention.

I’m curious. Could some natural foods have an inverse affect on this? I recently joined a CSA and have been consuming POUNDS of kale this summer. It seems to have an anti-food-obsession on me. I am one of those people that he mentioned who thinks about food ALL the time but am a normal weight.

What about other companies who go out of their way to abuse the science of neuropsychology to further their profits?

Is Dr. Kessler aware of alcohol treatment programs that stress the link between sugar addiction and alcoholism? I’ve known many recovering alcoholics who consume massive amounts of sugar daily. I also know alcoholics who never eat dessert because they get it through alcohol.

The dopamine connection shows that over-eating is in many ways the same issue as alcohol and drug addiction. Statistics show that individuals have the inherent ability to stop these addictions. Alcohol is considered hard because it’s everywhere. But food cannot be abstained from. What are some ideas for controlling food urges in the mind when abstinence (the only thing that works with alcohol) is not an option?

In the ancestral environment – the environment we evolved in over a couple of million years – fat, sugar, and salt were all in short supply. It makes sense that we are “wired” to find them rewarding — particularly in combination.

Hi,Is nutrition taught nationally in our school? Do teenagers understand the impact of sugars and carbs in their diet? I became aware of counting my carbs , 6 months ago when I was diagnosed with diabetes type 2. I was about 25 pounds overweight and lost it seen due to the fact that I have to count and be aware of all the carbs I put in my mouth and the portions get smallers.
I encourage my teenagers to drink a lot of water to compensate sometimes to the feeling of hunger. Which other steps parents could contribute to their children? thank you

I have a problem with Mr Kessler’s concern on fat. Sugar and carbohydrates are the bad thing. Most of the studies on fat being bad were funded by the people selling sugar and carbohydrates. In fact, Low Fat food are filled with more carbohydrates to make it taste better. Low Fat food has been shown to be more bad than good.

I am listening to your show. I am 45 years old. I am hypoglycemic, and this has probably saved my life. I wonder if the issue of control can weave into the conversation of the addiction and the marketing of addicting non-food substances? Yes we are “driven” to these things, we have control over ourselves and over the food our children eat. I have to fight the call of sugar everywhere I go, every day. It is the memory of how I will feel afterward that helps me most. It is simply not worth it to me. But I have had the reaction and have been able to consciously feel it. Facts are one thing, but a conscious experience of the physical reaction reaches our brains.

I’ve had a lot of food experiences (and theories!) over a lifetime — including two decades spent on an arid farm along the Mediterranean where there was little variety but plenty of really healthy food — even the “fast food.” So I got lucky. The experience of good eating came out of the environment I was living in. In contrast, what’s available here seemed like real deprivation when I came back to urban America’s food choices. Oddly over-sweet frozen veggies, beautiful, flawless and flavor-challenged fruit, curiously bland chicken and pork, etc. etc.

There seems to be a genuine connection between happiness (that “wow” feeling!) and good food, and by “good” I mean food that really makes us feel good, not just give us a temporary lift. Once I moved to a rural area here in the US and was able to find fresh food and the time to cook it, a form of depression lifted and about 10 lbs of extra avoirdupois fell away.

Two things have to happen: First, we have to realize that we aren’t obliged to eat cr*p and just quit doing it. Second, we have to end our relationship with corporations who depend on our addiction, letting them know that we aren’t going to pay them to kill us anymore. Third, we need to make an effort to give ourselves the experience of the connection between eating really great food and feeling really great — perhaps over one weekend, or one vacation. You don’t need years of Mediterranean farming! Once that connection is made, you never want to go back. The transition from defensive, anxious and hypoglycemic to happy and well-fed is complete. That has been my experience and why I feel ten years younger than I did ten years ago.

To all listening, please go deeper into this topic–for yourselves, your children, for society. All of us need to know how we all have unwittingly become pawns of the industrial food complex. Only then can we being to untangle the food issues in our lives. There is great power in making healthy/better/more sustainable choices three times a day, while sticking it to the corporations who offer up food that is not even real food.

A great place to start is The Omnivore’s Dilemma. If you don’t think you can get through reading the book, then check out the CDs from the library. Listen in your car. Take the time to go through it all. You will be changed.

Also, On Point did a show with the author in 2006.
http://www.onpointradio.org/2006/04/michael-pollans-food-for-thought

Good information BUT: Americans that eat poorly are not likely to read a book .. so .. how to reach them. What ever happened to Home Economics in early HS? Parents are the ones buying the food and supposedly attending School Board meetings where they can demand changes… guess not.
The DVD ‘King Corn’ is a must see and should be shown in every High School in America. We are being taken yet again…. not just corn syrup… goes waaay beyond this.
Europeans and other countries are not FAT LIKE AMERICANS! Food is either truly loved and used for social/family time spent together or simply lucky to have any. Other civilizations exercise! Either by the tradition of it or thru hard physical work. Pizza crust filled with (a very bad) cheese with the crust thick like a bun then topped with cheese and oil? Who came up with that? The salt content alone is deadly then wash it down with a Coke and fries as a vegetable??? Well Hello!
It just might be too late…. the junk food is all out there and the companies are making tons so why should they stop? They have to be given a reason to shop that will benefit them. I dunno..
The American ‘uniform’ is a tarp. The land of white sneekers and tarps. Sorry but we are gross, slovenly, unappreciative of the finer things in life. Don’t get me started on little kids brought up with Sesame Street. Information flashing at warp speed for their first 4 years of life then at 5 be expected to sit quietly in a classroom and actually listen? How annoying…… Ah a solution – give ‘em Ritalin! Yep, drug ‘em but not on an empty stomach so first a Big Mac and Shake (where the thickener is made from wood pulp… yep).
Over and out …….. just too depressing I know and who wants to read a book on this. To my mind this should be put on TV as Specials for a year and replace the reality programs because THIS is Reality.

This was a great program. I understand what Dr. Kessler said about salt, sugar and fat; however, I am not sure I got from the show what things I can do about it, except not eating processed or fast foods, which I do not eat normally anyways.He said it is not our fault. Ok, so how do I go about changing this?

Do a search for Dr. Michael Eades, author of Protein Power. Read his blog. Stop being conned by the pharmaceutical (statins) and food manufacturing companies (HFCS, whole grains, soy). Stop listening to Dr. Dean Ornish. Watch the movie, My Big Fat Diet. Watch the movie Fat Head by Tom Naughton. Reclaim your mind.

There is a fundamental problem.

Again, as with the cigarette campaign responsibility is shifted from the individual to companies.

Companies and conglomerates, I can see the tort lawyers salivating already!

When are we going to make people take care of their own destiny again?
Who pushes the bag of potato chips into ones face?
It’s not the companies, it’s the individual.

People need to be educated, people need to get of their behind and cook their own food again. People need to take control of THEIR own lifes.

Western populations are getting fat because they are a lazy, pampered, taken-care-of and handled people.

The fact that we are eating wrong is not news. We know this for a long time.

The great news is:

It’s not our fault! How convenient. It’s a problem that we have no control of. Isn’t that swell and easy.

Let’s sue all the food factories.

Fact is: Most Americans would starve without processed food.

That might be part of the problem.

We are not only getting physically fat, mentally we are totally obese as well.

Some food for thought.

Klaus Kutter

I belong to a 12 step program based on the AA model in which we abstain from flour and sugar.Fats are limited. Many of our members have experienced large weight losses; some don’t need to lose weight but are obsessed with food and want relief. Most report a loss of obsessive food thoughts and compulsion to eat. The name of the organization is Food Addicts in Recovery Anonymous. We have meetings in almost every state and in many countries all over the world. A google search will lead you to a website with meeting lists that have contacts that you can feel free to call and ask anything you want about the program. You do not have to do this alone.

I am a therapist working with adults who have chronic mental illness. Every week in my “Nutrition” group, I face a phalanx of 300 pounders and talk about food habits or read about good food choices. In the seven years I’ve done this, I’ve seen few successes with weight loss–except my own. It took several years of daily research and re-composition of nutritional info, as part of presenting it to groups, to have it sink in: eat fresh, whole foods, eat breakfast, and eat with other people at least once a day. Well, duh! I knew that already, didn’t you? but it takes repetition. I think it also takes awareness of Recovery principles such as those in AA, which has strategies to deal with the thousand ways we feel cravings. ‘Cause there’s always another excuse.

I lost 15 pounds and kept it off, and feel satisfied with my weight and energy levels. Of the few clients who have succeeded (losing 50-100 pounds! wow!) all were enrolled in groups like Weight Watchers and others that rely on 12-step programs. The cause of the problem is social, and the cure seems to be this as well. Dr. Kessler speaks of “laying down new learning tracks” and this is how you do it. As Americans, though, I think we’ve forgotten how to socialize and support each other. We’ve forgotten it, and we’re resisting it now.

I was driving while this show was on and I was incredibly frustrated with Dr. Kessler who ignored both Jane and various callers who tried to get him to acknowledge that individuals can choose to eat better. He sounded like a broken record with his salt, sugar, and fat rant.

I think Tekmet (above) is exactly right:

“Stop insulting our collective intelligence by trying to convince us that everything we do that ends up being excessive or harmful is not our fault.”

Kessler blames agribusiness and food conglomerates (and the tobacco industry) and it’s easy to blame them with all of their greed and profit motive, but he seemed to downplay people taking some personal responsibility to eat better so as to drive the food industry to stop making crap. If no one bought it there would be no market for it.

The guy who called in and described inhaling an Arby’s sandwich seemed to imply that Arby’s designed the sandwich to addict him and no doubt they did, but what about him simply avoiding Arby’s? Kessler avoided that.

By the way, I think this pattern extends to blaming credit card companies for personal over spending and to blaming the TV production industry for the crap on network TV. If no one was watching they’d change the programming.

For those arguing for personal responsibility, people have been told, insistently, that corn flakes, skim milk, and orange juice comprise a healthful breakfast. In reality, the body treats these foods as pure sugar, raising insulin and fueling blood sugar swings throughout one’s day. That’s what makes it possible for someone to inhale an Arby’s sandwich. The food industry has spent billions to tell us that their convenient, processed food was healthful. Crisco was healthful because it has no saturated fat; sugar was “natural.” There are commercials on the air now that defends HFCS. Why WOULDN’T people these sorts of foods are ok? Uneducated poor people get their nutrition information from TV ads; Kraft macaroni and cheese ads always depict happy, healthy, thin children eating it. They certainly aren’t going to show obese children stuffing their faces. And what sorts of foods does the government-subsidized food program provide? More processed cr*p. To argue that it’s simply a matter of choosing healthy foods and willpower is fantasy.

Dr. Kessler, thanks for writing your book. Anything to help get people to take control of what they are eating. It is shocking how many children and adults today are eating boatloads of sugar at every meal. People need to learn what is behind marketing lingo on labels and how to read food labels, so they understand what they are putting in their bodies.

We’ve known for 90 years exactly what drives hunger and that is the hormone insulin. They used to inject anorexics with insulin in order to make them hungry.

Like the O.A. caller on the show, I’ve cut sugar and all starches from my diet. I don’t get the rush of insulin and as result I don’t get hungry.

Kessler’s theory of layering sugar and fat and salt to drive hunger is only 33% correct. Fat is actually beneficial in that it mitigates the insulin response.

Thank you everyone. What an impt issue. I work in the addiction field and from my point of view, there’s no question that addiction to sugar/salt/fat is very similar to addiction to drugs/alcohol. As a professional, I use cognitive-behavioral methods, but I strongly recommend AA/NA to anyone who’s open to them. Behavior change of this nature is just incredibly hard and to be able to go to a free group of understanding people any day of the week is such a gift.
So I would recommend to anyone struggling with overeating or obsession with food (even if you manage to maintain a normal weight) to give Overeaters Anonymous a try. Nobody starts out really wanting to go, but you might be surprised. You don’t lose anything by just seeing what it’s like.

Also, in response to the newly minted doctor- a great way to approach any behavioral change is through Motivational Interviewing. Read the book by that title and better yet, find a training or a DVD- William Miller is brilliant! also very compassionate and kind. He has specific trainings and DVD’s for primary care settings. Thanks for reading.

Kessler’s book is very useful, but he needs to elaborate on the next steps for people trying to change.

Behavioral change is enormously difficult. He’s right that it doesn’t have primarily to do with lack of responsibility. It requires that you sensitize yourself to cues, interrupt the behavior you want to change early enough, and find another desirable (to you) behavior to substitute for it. And you have to do this for a very long time, and tolerate (and persist despite) failures. (Think smoking, alcohol use, etc…) And supportive group can be vital.

Not understanding this doesn’t just make people think of themselves (and others, obviously) as weak or “bad,” it undermines motivation for a very difficult task. And it doesn’t seem to help anybody to overcome overeating. The reward for most impulse eating is immediate, but the rewards for change are distant and hypothetical.

It’s important to also acknowledge another point made by Kessler: modern industrial/fast/snack foods often disguise, directly and indirectly, their harmful ingredients. Even the well-disciplined can be derailed by that.

Treating anyone with habit disorders can be frustrating and tedious. And physicians aren’t generally expecting or prepared for this kind of treatment approach. Nevertheless, a doctor can give the first push, and the book Motivational Interviewing is a good guide to doing it.

I recall some research out of U.C. Irvine around 1989 or 1990. I think the researchers’ names were Stein and Beluzzi. They speculated (and found supporting evidence) that the behavior (“bursting”) of some neurons could be increased by response-contingent applications of dopamine and other substances. They proposed that different cells were specialized to be reinforced by different neurotransmitters. If food manufacturers design their products to elicit dopamine production in our bodies, and if some people’s bodies have more dopamine-specialized cells than others’ (just like some of us have more skin pigment or more hair, etc.), then the fact that some of us become addicted to food (whereas others do not) does not suggest a character flaw. It’s physiological–just like some people are more susceptable to cocaine addtion, alcoholism, etc., than others.

A number of people mentioned how time-consuming it is to produce healthy meals — that is, to prepare them yourself. It is doubly time-consuming when you are preparing healthful meals for a whole family — breakfasts, packed lunches and snacks(because you can’t trust school meals), and dinners. This work largely falls on women. I make super-whole-grain pancakes for my kids and freeze them; then we warm them up in a toaster each morning. The kids like butter and syrup on them, but the whole grains, sunflower seeds, wheatgerm, etc., I add balances that. I prepare mountains of fresh veggies (red peppers, fennel, carrots, cucumbers, celery) for my kids every day — which they devour! I present it to them when they are hungry and ready for dinner. They eat a lot of the veggies because they are delicious and because the kids are hungry. My own mother did this 35 years ago. Afterwards, we sit down to eat — usually some lean meat, rice or pasta or bread, and a cooked vegetable. No added butter, just olive oil. Then I bring out fresh fruit for dessert — often I dramatically bring out a pineapple or some melon to cut up at the table. The kids love that. Fresh berries are a big hit too. We eat it together. No TV. What I describe here is what happens at our home most days, at least. Sometimes we just eat pasta because I’m exhausted. (My husband doesn’t cook.) Sometimes we have a pizza delivered. But most days are good food days. But I am sick of preparing food, it is an unbelievable chore. If I didn’t have NPR to listen to in the kitchen, I’d abandon ship…. One of my goals is to not let the kids get hooked on sugar. But my kids are served junk food at school and daycare by ‘well-meaning’ folks who organize parties/celebrations. These are a constant source of frustration for me. I work hard to keep the kids away from junk, and they come home telling me about the doritos and cupcakes they got from someone else’s parent, from their teacher, or at some afterschool program. These parties take place way too often and undermine a parents’ efforts.

Amy demand that your husband learns to cook.
Do it together. If he does not want to cook or is just incapable of even boiling water get him to prep. Anyone can learn to cut up vegetables. Get him and the kids to do clean up.

If your kids are old enough get them into the kitchen and whatever you do don’t make this a chore, it’s fun to cook.

I did this with my daughter and she now loves cooking and also has learned to bake. She makes a mean apple pie
She is in college now and has her first apartment which now gives her the chance to cook and save money. The college meal plan was absurdly expensive. I also bought her a house warming gift of a good set of stainless steel pots and pans and she also got a good chefs knife.

The earlier that children develop good kitchen habits the better. Getting the family involved can’t hurt.

@Putney: “Try finding a watermelon with seeds in it. You can’t.”

I’ve never seen a watermelon without seeds and I shop at Stop and Shop among other places.

One can shop at mainstream markets and buy decent food.

While I agree, Pollan, Kessler and others are raising the right kind of red flags, Kessler failed to spend enough time on personal responsibility in this interview. Us against “the machine” doesn’t help people get motivated to learn how to shop and cook, more like organize and sue.

I am someone with an enormous amount of discipline and willpower when it comes to just about every area of my life, save food. When I put my mind to something, whether it’s completing an advanced degree or riding my bike for 66 miles, it’s pretty much a done deal. However, until very recently, I’ve been utterly unable to pass the candy dish at work without popping a few pieces in my mouth. I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about what I would eat next and how soon I would get it. I could never understand why food was so completely out of control for me, when I had the strength to accomplish other difficult things in my life.

I read David Kessler’s book in early May and was outraged. I put the book down and decided that I would be damned if I would get diabetes or colon cancer so someone else could make a buck. I cut processed foods out of my diet and switched to mainly organic and local whole foods. After the first few days where I had to white-knuckle it to stay away from the processed foods, I’ve had absolutely no cravings for processed foods. I’ve lost 22 pounds, and I feel so much better. When I see processed foods, I almost cringe. In my mind, that is not food. On the contrary, I get excited about visiting the various farm stands in my neck of the woods and picking out my beautiful, fresh vegetables. Yes, eating healthy is more expensive than eating processed foods, but as my brother always says, you either pay for it now, or you in health care costs later on when you’re sick with diabetes or heart disease or cancer.

@Putney: “Sorry Richard, those are seedless watermelons.”

So, the seeds that our melons have aren’t capable of growing a watermelon and that makes them seedless? I’ve never heard of that. I thought seedless hybrids were in fact seedless. Our watermelons have seeds in them and I’ve never bought one without.

That aside, I can buy organic milk from local producers in Stop and Shop as well as chickens that have not been raised in factories. Stop and shop isn’t perfect and we do our shopping in many places including farm stands for what we don’t pull out of our own garden.

The short of it is that while I agree that agribusiness is a problem, one doesn’t have to take the stand of professional victim, one can work around them and buy food from local sources in many places in the US.

OK Ricard I’m not going to argue with you, ask them.
What does the sign say, seedless can have some seeds.
I have one in my fridge and even though it is a seedless watermelon it has a few seeds. It’s a marketing thing they want us to buy these things because they are easier to grow. They are genetically engineered to about the same size and they don’t taste a sweet as the ones I buy from the local farmers market at the end of the summer, which are smaller.

I think the ones that come from Mexico are not seedless but they only seem to around before the California growers harvest what we have now.

I just finished listening to your program and Dr. Kessler confirmed everything I have suspected about my own irrational cravings. I was thin my whole life until the early ’90s. Then I began a battle with food that has lasted years. After battling those cravings for so long, it finally occurred to me that if I just had a sugar packet, dash of salt and a drop of melted butter, I’d satisfy the sugar-salt-fat craving with hardly any calories! I would never eat such a combination of foods, but in reality I was eating those same combinations with thousands of calories wrapped around them! I look forward to reading Dr. Kessler’s book. I will quit sugar, salt and fat processed foods and will be sure to eat defensively and not fall for all the gloss and emotional lure ever again. Thanks for enlightening me!