90.9 WBUR - Boston's NPR news station
Top Stories:
PLEDGE NOW
Election and Protest in Iran
Iranian supporter of defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi hurls a stone at Iranian riot-police during clashes in Tehran, Iran, Sunday, June 14, 2009. Iranian youth opposed to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad take to the streets Sunday, setting trash dumpsters and tires on fire, in a second day of clashes triggered by voter fraud claims. (AP)

A supporter of defeated Iranian presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi hurls a stone at riot-police during clashes in Tehran, Iran, Sunday, June 14, 2009. (AP)

Anyone who thought the world would wake up Saturday to a remade Iran, on easy street for reconciliation with the West, got a rude shock this weekend:

A landslide re-election victory announced for President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. Rioters in Tehran alleging a stolen election. And, on its face, a much tougher road ahead for President Barack Obama’s outreach effort.

Today, the scent of teargas and burning tires lingers in Tehran. Opposition outrage is not over. But what’s next, for Ahmedinejad’s opponents?

This hour, On Point: What now for Iran — and for the U.S. and Iran?

You can join the conversation. Tell us what you think — here on this page, on Twitter, and on Facebook.

Guests:

From Istanbul, Turkey, we’re joined by Scott Peterson, Iran correspondent for the Christian Science Monitor. He was in Tehran covering the election until early this morning.

Joining us from Tehran is Mohamed Marandi, an Iranian political scientist and lecturer at the University of Tehran’s Institute for North American and European Studies.

Joining us from Washington is Hillary Mann-Leverett. She worked for 15 years for the Bush and Clinton administrations at the National Security Council and State Department. For two years following 9/11, she was one of a small number of U.S. officials authorized to negotiate with the Iranians over Afghanistan and Al Qaida. She is now CEO of a political risk firm called Stratega.

Joining us from Honolulu is Farideh Farhi. Formerly a professor at the University of Tehran, she teaches political science at the University of Hawaii at Manoa and is an advisor to the National Iranian American Council.

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • gabrielle

    it’s interesting to see when the international Left calls an election fraudulent. when the Right and NeoLiberals yell foul, usually there are sanctions, assassinations and coups close at hand. How does(and how will) the Left handle this sort of outcome?

  • aj

    Ahmadinijad seems a socially conservative populist.

    Moussavi a right of center social moderate elitist.

    The left and right viewing through the lens of an incompetent media are confused especially those in the land where we tortured POW’s and banned Habeus Corpus for international terrorists.

    My question is now that the Supreme leader has called for a probe, what was the whole leak out of the Rev. Guard suggesting possible velvet revolution, was that at all credible ( if so to what extent were external influences ACTUALLY involved, we already know of covert U.S. backed special ops inside of the Islamic Republic)

  • aj

    Moussavi is calling Ahmadinijad’s Interior Ministry bluff on the tally, and the Khameni has backed down from his initial endorsement. Unlike our non activist Supreme Court who took the initiative to spit on the constitution and usurp states rights annointing King George in 2000.

    No, No, not in tehran DEMOCRACY LIVES!

    The police crackdown on protesters is exaggerated by the media, no worse than then at the RNC last summer in Minnesota, or London at the G7.

    Rumors are flying, there will be a rally,

  • aj

    Another question, where were the international observers , even the Moussavi opposition had poll watchers at only half the precincts. This is making it difficult for anyone to legitimately support the claims of Moussavi supporters of a rigged vote, except for some very shaky poll numbers prior to. With no evidence Ahmadinijad could walk away with it, that is why the Supreme Leader’s probe is so hugely essential.

    They really dropped the ball with no neutral observers, both internationally (UN) and the opposition. Washington was unprepared for a botched election.

  • PW

    Reading about and listening to commentaries on Tehran this morning, I sent silent congratulations to the people who were taking a stand in the streets in spite of police bullying and violence. It was impossible not to compare the people of Iran with all of us — our anomie and laziness in 2000 (Gore v Bush), in 2002 (faux war), in 2004 (vote counting).

    Real democracy takes the energy and commitment of all the people. Our commitment to democracy seems to have been at a frighteningly low point during the past decade and more.

  • aj

    Well said.

    Implicit in that is that action is an political extension when due process has been exhausted.

    Was Netanyahu’s proposal at all credible for any patriotic human being to accept?

  • Putney Swope

    It seems any conjecturing is now moot.

    Iran Bans Opposition Rally as Critics Are Detained

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/world/middleeast/16iran.html?hp

    I’m not sure how much of this article to believe except that Ahmadinijad is one shrewd politician and dangerous.

    PW I agree with you, were is the outrage here over the bank bailouts and the lack of help to people in need of refinancing of mortgages that were promised by Obama but are now being quietly stopped. We are owned by the banks, the insurance and pharmaceutical corporations. I don’t see anyone including myself taking to the streets over how screwed up our country is.

    I’m not pleased with what’s happening in Iran, but look around, there are plenty of very screwed up things happening right here.

  • aj

    TIANNEMAN IN TEHRAN?

    Moussavi is at the rally, down town trying to bottle up the spilt toothpaste,
    What does that suggest is happening behind the scenes?

    Behind Barry Hussein’s Mr. KOOL fassad and his Lee Hamilton whiz kids at the NSC are frozen unprepared and paralyzed on what to do.

    Clinton was on her heels Sat., Biden was a mess Sun., and a lame statement from Gibbs over the weekend was insufficient. I am not impressed either way.

    Germany has called out accusing the vote rigged.

    The pathetic press is useless right now , except for a few ” reliable sources “. Ex. Robert Fisk, Trita Parsi

    With the rally set to happen, and the Ayatollah’s misstep, it will be interesting to see how authorities react to the demonstrations. In other words whose calling the shots on the streets, it’s not clear. It Is Not CLEAR AT ALL, no matter who says so.

    If authorities overstep, this could be BIG, remember Tianneman took weeks to boil over.

  • Putney Swope

    The police crackdown on protesters is exaggerated by the media, no worse than then at the RNC last summer in Minnesota, or London at the G7.

    aj how do you know this? From what I have been reading it’s pretty bad.

  • Joe B.

    Iran is not a democracy, Iran is a theocratic dictatorship ruled by fiercely anti-semitic Mullahs. If the people of Iran really wanted domocracy, they would overthrow the mullahs just as they overthrew the Shah in 1979.

  • aj

    MOUSSAVI RENEGE’s!
    The rich urban elite youth will be heartbroken.

  • aj

    If you were a non fiercely anti-semitic patriotic human being living in Gaza would you accept Netanyahu’s proposal Joe B.?

  • aj

    Putney I’m sure it is bad for someone to get whacked in the ear with a baton and kicked in the balls. But that is now worse than at the RNC last summer or the G7 protest outside the Bank of London.

    And also that does not mean the clueless media is not exaggerating in the middle of all the frenzy. Because their standing in the middle of a handful of Moussavi Bourgeois supporters.

    Does it?

  • aj

    Look for Barry Hussein to duck making a statement on Iran while speaking on healthcare because he would n’t know what to say, and therefore look stupid.

    But not as stupid as trying to explain to a bunch of Dr’s why they should accept a public health plan at least until the long delayed ( about 100 yrs ) gets out of the house, because then he can tuck tail and sell out the american people to Insurance companies he is beholden to. Come on, you know he will.

    Nancy Pelosi is the only one with any guts on Pennsylvania Ave. (make no mistake she has her faults but domestically policy speaking I mean)

  • Putney Swope

    aj I’m seeing who’s side your on here, and apparently it’s not Moussavi.

  • aj

    Really? do share.

  • aj

    Who’s side do you relate to?

  • dianna g

    And we call this Journalism???????

    CNN from Last Night:
    “This Larry King. You are watching CNN’s exclusive interview with Iranian President Ahmedinejad. We have to go to a commercial break right now. When we come back we are going to ask President Ahmedinejad why he wants to harm the Jewish People.”

    And this ancient sleezebag sob Larry The King of Zion is still on the air, as a journalist.

    Oh, my God, what we are reduced to!

  • BHA

    Ahmedinejad claims all is well in Iran? Not surprising coming from a man who claims the Holocaust never happened. Reminds me of Saddam Husein’s spokesman claiming there were no US troops in Iraq when they were just a few miles outside of Baghdad. If you claim something unpleasant staring you in the face isn’t there, then it isn’t there, right?

  • Lilya Lopekha

    1 to 1
    Corrolation,
    between lying supporters of Israel and people who wants regime change in Iran.

    Hmmmm, I wonder why?

  • Bridget Elmeniawy

    Mohamed Marandi definitely seems to be cautionary in his words so I’m not taking great stock in what he is saying. I’m sure if he were to suggest that the elections are fixed he might lose his position at the University or worse be imprisoned.

  • aj

    A fair and interesting specualtion Bridget, I had not thought of that, very interesting.

  • aj

    If wasn’t so sad, it would be funny dianna. Thanks.

    It sounds like the Iranian Reagan Democrats carried the day, thoughts?

  • brianna

    Most of the Iranians in the United States who express their opinions in fluent English are either wealthy students who were lucky enough to go abroad during the Shah days or the elite people who were wealthy enough to leave Iran right after the revolution.

    We do not have an unbiased Iranians who are making noise here.

    Overthrowing a regime…. if you cannot do it militarily and with the CIA (Roxana), let’s try the Media – even if it provokes a civil unrest.

  • aj

    Hard to disagree with your analysis Lilya. Of course we’ve known this for quite a while, no doubt, no matter what one’s politics are, it’s tough to dispute your formula.

    Another thing, you know how the 1 to 1′ers always make that argument about Iran is also a threat to the arab neighbors, that argument is someone disingenuous, since these same people dispute Tehran’s election results with no evidence, but yet base this huge assumption on what the Arab OPPRESIVE regimes say and not the masses of oppressed arab population, would you agree dear lilya?

  • Joanna Drzewieniecki

    Venezuela in 2008 or Peru in 2000? I don’t know if the elections were rigged or not but I know that there are a great many ways to cheat on elections. In Peru in 2000, the Fujimori regime, which was being closely observed from abroad, cheated in all kinds of ways in different parts of the country. By using different methods, they made it much more difficult to detect the irregularities. Iran is a different country, of course, but it is silly to affirm there could not have been irregularities. As for the those above who claim that those of who voted for Ahmadinejad were the lefty good guys – I urge you to look into the history of the current regime and the number of leftists it murdered. After the Iranian revolution, they first “took care” of the right and then started to systematically arrest and execute a great many members of Iran’s many well-organized leftist parties. This idea that if the US opposes someone, they therefore must be “good guys” is just another manifestation of an imperial mentality.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Ahmedinejad:
    a) …Assuming that the holocaust happened the way it happened….
    b) Holocaust has never happened!

    Can you see the difference?

    Please show just one reference where Ahmedinejad said B)

  • aj

    Wow, very well said, with great insight, Brianna.

  • aj

    Absolutely, dear Lilya, absolutely, another MAJOR exaggeration by the ignorant or bias mouthpieces. Thank you for that.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Putney

    If you want to take sides on elections in Israel, go right ahead… it is your country ….sort of.

    But you don’t live in Iran, you are not an Iranian….why are you so opiniated. What did Ahmedinejad do to you? What did he say to offend you as an “American”? How come an average Swedish person is not against him?

  • Putney Swope

    I’m not a big fan of Ahmedinejad. I don’t know enough about the other candidate to other than he is more moderate and wants people to have more freedom, whatever that means in context to the Iranian political structure and society I’m not sure. Well aj you do seem to be pretty critical of Moussavi, but your all over the map so it’s hard to pin down.

    Lilya your getting old with the ant-Israel rhetoric.
    Ahmedinejad is a holocaust denier are you saying that you support this kind of thing?

    By the way your wrong about that, regime change would be bad for the hawks in Israel. Ahmedinejad is what they want, he’s a beacon of mistrust and an easy target for the hard right Israeli politicians.

  • aj

    Even more, the holocaust did happen, of course no one can deny this, but it happened in europe. Not Palestine, and that is a big part of Ahmadinijad tries to get across despite his clumsiness and uneducated articualtion and poor translation.

    The Shah, our puppet was just as oppressive, more so probably then the current regime. Thoughts?

  • aj

    Putney I defend Lilya in your second paragraph, she is being tough but honest in a biased country, it’s courage not rhetoric, and she has not crossed any line in my opinion.

    Though I completely agree with your third paragraph.

  • Putney Swope,

    Lilya as always your complete lack of understanding of the definition of the word opinion is evident. If you have evidence of how an average Swedish person thinks about this please share it.

    But you don’t live in Iran, you are not an Iranian….why are you so opinionated. What did Ahmedinejad do to you? What did he say to offend you as an “American”? How come an average Swedish person is not against him?

    I can say the same about you and Israel. You don’t live there, why are you so opinionated? What did Israel do to offend you as an American?

    Ahmedinejad has offended me as a Jew and the victims in my family who were murdered by the nazis in WW2. Got it.

  • Mark in PA

    We need to look at what the other two losing candidates’ campaigns and figures are saying.

    We’re just hearing from the top two.

    What are the other candidates saying about their exit polls, the accusations, etc.?

  • aj

    It’s a good point Mark, I’d like to know myself, but things on the ground are being done behind the scenes in my opinion. It sounds as though authorities have blocked internet, satelite, etc. And all the western media visa’s have expired, so it’s all just specualtion.

    Last I heard the other two disputed it as well, but had much less support in the polls. However that is why I think the International Community and the Iranian opposition really should blame themselves. Because from what I can tell there were no international or neutral observers at the polls. With no evidence, the Washington is stuck in an uncomfortable spot which is why Obama who gets in front of live TV to read from a teleprompter what he had for breakfast, is dead silent.

    The Ahmadinijad Interior Ministry does the counting which makes me skeptical, but not enough to make claims with no evidence.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Putney, Putney, Putney

    Put up or Shut up.

    Show one evidence, clue, link, quote where Ahmedinejad have said anything that is close to B); or else you are a anti-arab/farsi grumpy old liar.

    a) …Assuming that the holocaust happened the way it happened….
    b) Holocaust has never happened!

  • Mike

    Hillary Mann-Leveritt is remarkably disingenuous across multiple dimensions today. There is a raging debate about what happened in this election. She is wrong to cite the Washington Post article exclusively as evidence of legitimacy, or even just potential legitimacy.

    She is also disingenuous in stating that the Obama adminitration is playing favorites in whom to deal with among Iranians. The administration has had only one choice the entire time, and now there remains only one choice. They had no choice in the timing of the Iranian election coming just as their primary diplomatic suge was getting underway. Perhaps they could be accused of moving too slowly, but they might have been accused of being rash had they moved faster.

    Lastly, Mann-Leveritt calls for a “genuine rapprochement” with Iran. That’s something that is profoundly to be desired, but she well knows that such a thing is at best many small steps away from happening, and more likely not possible in this era of profound American deference to Israeli politics.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Putney

    Ahmedinejad will team up with you….
    He will travel to Europe with you and demand answers why Holocaust has happened and what is the remedy for Jewish People … “iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin Europe”

  • dianna g

    Lilya is being edgy but she is 100% right.

    Let’s say….on a bad day
    Ahmedinejad denied holocaust (as a spokesperson for nothing), therefore Israel has right to occupy other people’s land.

    What kind of a kaka-mimi logic is that?

    Jack (Europe) slapped me in the face, and I should slap Jill (Palestine) to get even with Jack.

  • Greg

    It’s interesting that when you’re looking at a country other than our own, it’s easy to call a spade a spade. The election fraud in Iran is obvious and it underscores the illegitimacy of the government. I only wish we applied the same scrutiny to our own elections. (Tom!) This kind of stuff happens regularly right here at home.

    Doesn’t anyone wonder why most of Diebold’s directors are convicted criminals? (And openly partisan.)

    Watch this testimony of a computer programmer who was asked by Congressman Tom Feeney in 2000 to write election rigging software:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UvEuqYyDoE

    The 2000 Presidential election was stolen; so was 2004. That means the whole Bush presidency was illegitimate. (Well wasn’t it!)

    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

  • aj

    Yep.

  • R.M

    putney be careful because someone who doesn’t like what your say might put a virus into your computer . Maybe WBUR should look into it or a higher authority?

  • Norman

    As I watch the civil unrest in Iran following the election my impression is tainted by the knowledge that our government has authorized and spent millions of dollars to foment opposition to the Iranian government. How many of the protest organizers are on the US payroll?

  • R.M.

    norman ,why don’t you ask that about the gaza protest all over the world ?

  • aj

    R.M. would you accept Netanyahu’s proposal if you happened to live in Gaza?

    As to your question, I honestly don’t have an answer, please enlighten me.

    Whats up with the computer virus comment? Do people really do that, because if so that is terrible and someone should look into it.

  • BHA

    Lilya,

    “or else you are a anti-arab/farsi grumpy old liar”
    - I am not anti-Arab/Farsi (nor am I undying pro Israel)
    - I am sometimes grumpy :)
    - I am middle aged
    - I am NOT a liar

    If I ‘put up’ will you ‘shut up’?

    “Ahmadinejad says Holocaust a ‘big deception’”
    Jun 3, 2009
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i33Vai0UH84v7P645PZYWTCNmj0w

    “Ahmadinejad Renews Holocaust Denial”
    Updated 4:42 PM EDT, Mon, Apr 20, 2009
    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Iranian-President-Renews-Holocaust-Denial.html

    The Holocaust happened, the evidence is unquestionable. Just because most of the people directly related (perpetrators, concentration camp survivors, liberators) have died or are very old, meaning there are few people left who can give first hand accounts, does not change that.

    Now if the bee in your bonnet is “Why was the state of Israel created in the Middle East on land occupied by Palestinians rather than land taken from the perpetrators?”, I will not argue with you one bit.

    Of course, the Jews would not want Israel to be in Germany, they want it in their ‘Land promised by God’. However, to my mind, the horror to which they were subjected based on their religious affiliation does not equate to ‘OK, here is the land you want’.

    BUT, there can’t be a “do over” now. Israel needs to pull back to the “Green Line”. The State of Palestine should be created in the area outside the Green Line and the Israelis living there either stay as legal residents of Palestine or choose to move to Israel. We, the U.S., have tacitly supported Israel’s refusal to conform to UN resolutions to remove themselves from the Occupied Territories for decades. We invaded Iraq when Saddam Husein refused to give up the weapons of mass destruction (that he did not have) after a couple of months.

    In any case, the Palestinians, Arabs, all of the Middle Eastern countries need to recognize the State of Israel and insure its physical security. Of course the likelihood of this happening is remote. Too many religious zealots on both sides. Too many “THEY won’t hold up their side” arguments on both sides. Too many “they done us wrong” on both sides.

  • aj

    That’s powerful stuff, I can really respect everything that you just wrote. So , I would honestly like to know your opinion on a one state solution, call it Israel(Israel pre 67,gaza,westbank, not the Golan), like you said there are no do overs, I agree with you. Equal rights for all its citizens.

    Because neither side will do the compromising it will take for a two state solution. Could you support a one state, israeli jews and israeli palistinean citizens living side by side in peace as equal citizens in the Holy Land.

  • aj

    In my opinion that vision is something that would really set an example of democracy to the regions corrupt regimes, that is peace that could truly endure I would think. Please respond, I would very much like to read any thoughts you might have on the matter.

  • R.M

    talking again to youself are you? must be very lonely …..

  • R.M

    Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe

  • aj

    Just a dreamer, thinking out loud. Forgive me luv.

  • aj

    Dogs bark when the caravan passes by.

  • aj

    If you were unfortunate enough to be born in Gaza.
    Would you accept Prime Minister Netanyahu’s proposal?
    Yes or No.

  • BHA

    Would *I* accept a 1 state solution FOR Israel/Palestine? Sure, anything that would let the people of the area get to a prosperous life for all with no fear from the other. Right now, Israel keeps the Palestinians under ‘lock and key’ fearing attacks and the Palestinians attack purportedly because they are under ‘lock and key’ (I know, too simplified).

    But I see a 1 state solution as even less likely than a 2 state solution. I can not imagine an election where the entire population of Israelis and Palestinians come up with a group to govern them all. To be realistic, they can’t even come up with a single group in either EXISTING ‘state’ to govern themselves. Israel has more frequent elections and coalitions that just about anywhere and the Palestinians are currently 2 factions that can’t agree on even basic common goals. Then you have all the other states ‘helping’ either or both of them hoping to get rid of Israel. Have we come full circle back to Ahmadinejad? :)

    This mess existed when I was born 50 years ago and VERY SADLY, I suspect it will still be going on when I die in 30 or 40 years. Can you say “Hatfields and McCoys”? Things never change, the Shiites and Sunnis split the Islam religion 1400 years ago. The world would be far better off if we took a ‘group amnesia’ pill. Forget all the prior affronts, real or imagined and start clean :)

  • aj

    Cheers mate.

  • BHA

    “If you were unfortunate enough to be born in Gaza.
    Would you accept Prime Minister Netanyahu’s proposal? Yes or No”

    As I understand it, a ‘status quo’ 2 state solution. The settlements stay, Jerusalem undivided, no military, no ‘right of return’. He offered nothing. In reality, I suspect if he had said exactly the opposite, Hamas would find some reason (besides their desire to wipe Israel off the face of the planet) to say ‘it is not enough’.

    I, personally, don’t believe in a ‘right of return’ as a precondition. IF they could just all get along, those who wanted to return to a specific location, Palestinian or Israeli, could just move there. But, we know that won’t happen any time soon.

    Jerusalem could be blown straight to hell and the hard liners on both sides would be sitting on the rubble saying “Our capital must be here, God gave it to us”.
    Both sides are doomed by their religious ties to coordinates on the map.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    1 state solution, 2 state solution, 3 state solution.
    Who cares. Property and ownership of property is a civil/individual right.

    What right do we have to decided for Hussein who lost his home in Ashkelon to ethnic cleansing. He MUST be compensated first by whoever took his property.

    1-2-3 state solution is just another Masturbacionne invented by neo-zions. Deadline for the project: 3048 (=never)

  • aj

    dear Lilya

    Perhaps a 51 state solution is more just. Thank you President Truman. Then Hussein can have his day in court at long last.

  • michael

    maybe just maybe this may be a good thing for the u.s. (besides Ben N. speech on sunday)

    reasoning: Ahmedinejad finds himself in a weaker state, and the supreme leader feels they must throw a bone to the people or give up something to Moussavi supporters, inwhich by the end of the year talks with the u.s. maybe less confontational when at the table due to the supreme leader trying to appease the massives. A nation divided becomes weaker, and we could see gains for the u.s.

    if obama can keep the neo-cons and stick to his guns on the settelement in israel it makes Ahmedinejad even weaker this may turn out good for the obama admin

  • michael

    fyi,

    r.m. comment about virus was that i asked him why he was not vocal about the racism of minority jews and if he/she felt they should have equal rights as well.

    it skiped over it saying bigorty is a virus, i replied that one day (he/she) hopefully could get rid of it.

    (he/she)r.m. being a troll it skiped pasted its head.

  • Brianna

    Roxana was a bad spy. Her job along with other spies who were paid by Wilson Institude.

    Their job was to manufacture a link + pretend evidence (which does not exists) between the evil Iranian Regime and the evil insurgents who don’t like to be occupied in Iraq. Then the excuse would have been evil Ahmedinejad is killing poor heroic American soldiers in Iraq.

    Therefore, we could go kinetic on Iranian Regime, because Tel-Aviv said so.

    Plan A did not work; and now let’s do plan B towards Regime Change in Iran. The Media and our corrupt elected officials (ie. Biden) hyping up the opposition.

    CNN this morning: A secret memo to US Military in the Gulf instructs them to use restraint when engaging Iranian Military.

    What a shameless crap towards provoking Iranians.

  • R.M.

    very good you did some homework for once …it was so easy to find it on the net ….

  • Putney Swope

    Lilya your so offensive I don’t know what to say, except grow up. You have been posting here for months it’s all copy and paste. Your remarks are offensive, your think that being a Jew absolves you of this? No it does not, in fact you have been doing this on this forum for months now. You have been told by the producers to

    Ahmadinejad has made countless vile remarks against Jews and he has not hid is wish to destroy Israel.

    Putney, Putney, Putney

    Put up or Shut up.

    Show one evidence, clue, link, quote where Ahmedinejad have said anything that is close to B); or else you are a anti-arab/farsi grumpy old liar.

    a) …Assuming that the holocaust happened the way it happened….
    b) Holocaust has never happened!

    Your being offensive.

    Lilya is being edgy but she is 100% right.

    Let’s say….on a bad day
    Ahmedinejad denied holocaust (as a spokesperson for nothing), therefore Israel has right to occupy other people’s land.

    What kind of a kaka-mimi logic is that?

    Jack (Europe) slapped me in the face, and I should slap Jill (Palestine) to get even with Jack.

    dianna g, edgy? You call this vile BS edgy. Your oversimplification of complex issues is amazing.

    Here’s a news flash for you, the Holocaust happened. 80% of my mothers family died in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. She was in Poland in 1937-38 to visit her relatives, after the war these people were dead. They died in Auschwitz, their names are listed, how much more proof do you people need.

    Moving forward, it is also not a good thing for Israel to constantly use the Holocaust as a frame work for the current geopolitical conflicts they are having with the Palestinians. This to me is wrong and is also a great cause of concern and angst. I do however support Israel’s right to exist.

  • topic

    I wonder where the new medias were when King George suspiciously stole the election twice? Where were the coverage for the protesters?

    If you are not an immigrant, you might never know who American medias are so biased and stereotypes. Until you hear their reports about the country you came from. I am not if media are just simply too lazy to do their homework, or it is just easier to stereotyping countries you really don’t know much except from your government reports and journalist abroad. (A journalist can reside another country for long time, still couldn’t grasp the essence of such country’s culture)

  • Putney Swope

    Lilya one more thing, it’s not up to you or me or Ahmedinejad to decide how the Holocaust happened.

    This statement needs to be addressed, you have stepped over the line of civility and are now showing your true vile colors. Assuming that the holocaust happened the way it happened….

    Put up or Shut up.

    Show one evidence, clue, link, quote where Ahmedinejad have said anything that is close to B); or else you are a anti-arab/farsi grumpy old liar.

    a) …Assuming that the holocaust happened the way it happened….
    b) Holocaust has never happened!

    Do you think your being funny?
    You think this is a big joke?

    Unbelievable.

  • JP

    The election in Iran, and all its surrounding politics, proves that critics of Cheney/Bush Iran policy were right: the U.S. should have been fostering bonds with Iran while supporting the growing pro-democratic forces inside and outside of Iran.

    Iran was poised for seismic changes which may now fail.

    If the U.S. had helped strengthen Iranian ties to the rest of the world, rather than trying to isolate Iran, the country would almost certainly have become a democratic and stabilizing pillar in the region… at least as a result of this recent election.

    Now we may see the movement fail at a time when the region and the world most need it to succeed.

    It’s not surprising the Cheney/Bush effect is still screwing everything.

  • Monir

    As an Iranian who lived in that country for 32 years of my life ,seen all ups and downs,revolution,war,…We know Mousavi ,if he weren’t sure -did not have numbers as they told him just around midnight Friday- he would not have announced himself the winner,or get into the trouble of opposing.I am wondering people including Prof.Marandi In Tehran or your guest Hillary (Bush administration adviser) , talking about published polls???don’t you know that in those parts of the world nothing almost NOTHING against the government would be published?if there were a fair poll,do you think they would have published the results?As some mentioned:This high turn out says it all , people did not participate to elect Ahmadinejad,they wanted to prevent it from happening,otherwise we would have had close to the same numbers from 4 years ago.and if he was the right one why this much pressure,beating,cutting the communications…is going on now.They were almost prepared for it.Didn’t Mr.Marandi notice the guards in Tehran the morning they wanted to announce the results?How come other candidates also questioning the results?they knew they would not be elected but still insisting these numbers are ridiculous.Your guest Hillary :didn’t you learn the lessons from that region?that there is this mentality in those like Ahmadinejad and his religious advisers that they consider themselves above any law or people,that the way they beat people is tremendous as they get the power form God?don’t you know about these things?then what kind of advice you gave Bush!!?if you do not want say that Iranian people are against war and fascism and that is why this election turned out to be a big movement in all cost ,please do not undermined Iranian people’s will for freedom and their unbelievable devotion for it.This is really unfair to them and believe me today you support Ahmadinejad’s fake election ,tomorrow you have to deal “something” in that region that you would worship Taliban in comparison!!

  • frederic c.
  • Lilya Lopekha

    Putney,

    Everything you said …. Ahmedinejad agrees with you 100%…. holocaust has happend, but it was in Europe.

    Why are you soooooooooooo thick. Europe is not the Middle East.

    Take your zion-Isreal and live in Eastern Europe and leave the Middle East alone.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    From the Guardian, UK

    Skewed and in secret, this Iraq inquiry is a scandalWe badly need to learn from the most important foreign policy decision of the last decade. This tissue won’t help us

    Jonathan Steele guardian.co.uk, Monday 15 June 2009 23.30 BST Article historyGordon Brown’s ­announcement of a secret inquiry into the runup to and conduct of Britain’s invasion and occupation of Iraq (not the nouns he used, of course) is scandalous.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Please listen to the interviews carefully…

    Anybody while expressing opinion about the elections in Iran also mentions that Ahmedinejad has said that he was going to wipe Israel, etc., is either well paid from those mickey-mouse garbage think-tanks and/or is related to Israel with religious/ethnic ties. If somebody who claims that he/she is a scholar and an expert on Iran, has to know that Ahmedinejad has never ever said anything like that.

    On an unrelated story…. we need a regime change in Israel.
    Bibi said to Obama: If the U.S. does not hit the Iranian Nuclear Energy Research Centers, Israel will wipe them off from the face of the map with the staff in them.

    Speaking of wiping off the map….

  • R.M.

    If this was Israel , the news would be all over it :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWfwgBSPlGc&feature=related

  • Putney Swope

    Lylia as you now feel fit to use name calling.
    Now you realize that you can no longer use your double standards in these debates.

    Your methods are classic propaganda, you attempt to demonize the opposing view point and when that does not work you use insults about age and so on.
    You call me a Zionist, which if you have read my comments with any thread of intelligence you would see that I am far from it. I have said many, many times that I am deeply troubled by what is happening in Israel and that I do not support the right wing political parties there.

    That’s neither here nor there. The issue is your complete lack of understanding or acceptance that the world does not revolve around you and your ideology.

    I see a narcissist at work here. Your personal BS is so tied up in your comments that it has become clear to me anyway that you use this forum to vent your personal problems through the lens of Palestinian Israeli conflict. You have posted your personal story here for all to read. That’s a sign of immaturity and kind of dumb.

    Anyone who is not into your vision of politics is thick or should go back to Europe or whatever. This is the kind of mentality one expects from children.

    You show the world not only your ignorance, but a complete lack of understanding of the meaning of nuance and opinion. You don’t know how to debate, you can’t form a thesis or use critical thinking.

    Bottom line for me is that your comments on the Holocaust were extremely offensive to me. It seems to me that the producers of this show in the guise of free speech have seen fit to let you post whatever it is you want to. Shame on them. Shame on you as a Jew to use the memory of so many for your warped view on the world.

  • Putney Swope

    RM I think the media is trying to report on this.
    The Iranian government is kicking all the foreign journalist out of the country or arresting them.

    A lot is going on in Iran, and thanks to people with cameras events like this are being recorded.

  • Putney Swope
  • BHA

    Lilya, do YOU read any credible accounts of Ahmedinejad’s denial of the Holocaust? If you didn’t bother to look at the links I posted earlier, here is the FIRST SENTENCE of the second link – from NBC, not some unaccountable wing nut website:
    “The man who insists the Holocaust never happened opened a U.N. conference on racism by accusing Israel of being racist and again denying that the Jewish population of Europe was virtually wiped out by Hitler.”

    The man claims that millions of Jews were NOT killed by Hitler and the Nazis. The FACT is – YES THEY WERE. GO to the Holocaust Museum. If you can’t go there in person, here is a link to the website:
    http://www.ushmm.org/holocaust/

    There are still some living survivors of the camps – GO FIND THEM, TALK TO THEM, ASK TO SEE THE IDENTIFICATION TATTOO ON THEIR ARMS. IF they can bring themselves to talk about it.

    NO ONE has EVER said the Holocaust happened in the Middle East. Is it fair that the 20th Century Palestinian lands were taken because millions of Jews were brutalized and killed by Hitler and the Nazis in Europe? I don’t think so. But the timing and political history of the region allowed it to happen. The French and British control in the region was waning in the late 1930′s but the Middle Eastern States were not yet free of their political control.

    And please lets not claim COLONIALISM! The Romans pushed all the way up into the British Isles to gain political territory. The Muslims invaded and controlled territory from China and India to North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula starting around 700. In fact, the Prophet Muhammad’s rise to power (religious, political and military) started nearly a hundred years earlier. You might want to consider that the Prophet Muhammad had all the adult male Jews in Medina killed, the women and children enslaved in 627. It is not hard to find some angle which supports the claims of either side in the Palestinian/Israeli conflicts. The affronts may have been yesterday or 400 years ago, but they exist on both sides.

    By the way, I am neither Jewish nor Muslim. I have no religious ‘skin’ in this.

  • GN

    It’s very unfortunate that no one recognizes the absentee votes, which were apparently 300% higher than previous years, and were mostly for Mousavi (over 80%)!!!

    Also the country had announced the results before Iranians could vote in the eastern parts of US and Canada, and as we all know there are large communities of Iranians in that part of the world.

    Lastly, there have been massive protests in other major cities as well, whereby large crowds of Mousavi supporters, young and old, have been protesting for their rights.

    Please do cover these points should you have more discussion about this matter.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Dear BHA,

    As a former jewish person (was not 100%) I do take offense if anybody denies that holocause has ever happened.

    However, I take offense on false accusations and/or abuse of this horrible event.

    Ahmedinejad has never ever “denied”. If he did so, here is the medium for open mike: Show the quote!!!

    Even if he explicitly 100% denied, it does not give a single right for European Jews to take other people’s land. Period.

    There are some freaks, who “denies” along with condemnation of the Occupation. Yes, Denying is wrong, but Being Against the Occupation is “Perfectly Right”. We should not mix/match causes and comments at our (Tel Aviv/AIPAC’s) convenience.

  • aj

    Hi dear Lilya.

    Clearly the violence has escalated in Tehran in the last 24 hours. Clearly the actual results of the vote (either way) have been pre-empted.

    The election… Sure they stole it: Up front and honestly

    Blood in the streets, and the spirit of freedom lingers still. And Cheney wanted war with these brave young freedom fighters. How many times did he dodge the draft, hmmmm, about as many times he had heart surgery with his government run insurance, I suppose.

  • millard-fillmore

    “Doesn’t anyone wonder why most of Diebold’s directors are convicted criminals? (And openly partisan.)”
    ===
    Greg, if they are partisan, how did we end up with Democrats in control of all three houses? Oh I get it – it’s a strategy to fool the Democrats just this once to allay any doubts about the machines, and then give them a surprise in 2012 and every election after that. Correct?
    Because, I guess, four years of not being in control is worth it in the long run for the Republicans.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    aj:
    The election… Sure they stole it: Up front and honestly

    You don’t know. We just don’t know. You cannot make a blanket statement like this. Should know better than that.

    Anybody who is familiar with the tribal/arab lands should also know that whenever there is an election, most of the clan votes with whatever the tribal leader tells them so. It is the same in most of families living in the rural areas. Is it good or bad, not that important.

    But don’t fooled by the Tehran and the rich neighborhoods. And also, we should not care too much about Iran that much; because it is just another country to American Constitution.

    But of course, if you throw in “Israel”, things change…. as if Israel = America. It is NOT!!! And it should not be!

  • aj

    I don’t know babe, I think you make good points… and your right, we don’t know… nobody does for sure.

    I should not have made a blanket statement, but from all the sources I trust (Robert Fisk, Trita Parsi, Hooman Majd, Reza, etc. ) the result was suspect.

    Now say Ahmadinejad did get more votes, fine so be it, but from my analysis They Didn’t Even Count All The Votes! Ahmadinejad’s own Interior Ministry was in charge of counting ballots.

    Come on babe, in the words of King, ” an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere ” so all I’m saying is count all the votes.

    Ahmadinejad, the stupid S.O.B. might of ‘ Coupt te dat’d ‘ himself!! You’re right it is just another country, and there interests ‘vis a vis’ the U.s. won’t change no matter who wins. So I’m not taking sides.

    But I don’t want to see another Tianneman, and it’s likely there will be unless they count the votes. At night they’re shouting from the rooftops of Tehran, like in 79′.

    ” there’s something happening here, what it is ain’t exactly clear, there’s a man with a gun over there, telling me I got to beware “

  • BHA

    Lilya, please do your own checking. I can not give you an actual quote, I only speak English. I wouldn’t recognize an original untranslated quote if you put it on my desk. I have done my best to find unbiased information, not relying on Wikipedia and single issue web sites.

    ANOTHER source – Reuters quoting a DIRECT QUOTE from Iran’s official news agency.

    http://www.zionism-israel.com/news/ahmedinejad_again.htm

    Iran’s Ahmadinejad casts doubt on Holocaust

    By Paul Hughes December 9, 2005

    TEHRAN (Reuters) – Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Thursday expressed doubt the Holocaust took place and suggested the Jewish state of Israel be moved to Europe.

    His comments, reported by Iran’s official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, follow his call in October for Israel to be “wiped off the map”, which sparked widespread international outrage.

    The latest comments also provoked quick condemnation. German Chancellor Angela Merkel called them “totally unacceptable” and British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said “I condemn them unreservedly. They have no place in civilised political debate.”

    Ahmadinejad was quoted by IRNA as saying: “Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail.”

    “Although we don’t accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?” he said.

    I’m sure you can find hundreds of millions of people who agree that the basis of his question in the final paragraph is valid. He is simply asking “Do the Europeans support Israel BECAUSE of the Holocaust?”. And in that paragraph he is allowing that the Holocaust ‘potentially’ happened ONLY for the sake of being able to ask the question at all.

    My answer to his question would have to be ‘yes’. I can’t think of any other reason the Allied Powers created the State of Israel where it is. The argument being “They were killed because of their religion and the least we can do is give them the state they want where they want it”. It had to be the ‘right place at the right time’. As I said before, if the Holocaust happened 20 or 30 years ago, I do not believe there would be a state of Israel. And if there were, more than likely, as Ahmadinejad suggests, it would be in Germany. Of course the Jews wouldn’t want it there, it does not meet their “promised land” requirement.

    If you look at the common history of BOTH religions, it is sadly reminiscent of 2 children fighting over the spoils of their parents’ estate. Unless you can get their deities (probably the same ‘being’) to sit everyone down and parcel out the goods in ‘person’, it will go on forever. Think about it, both consider Moses and Abraham to be Prophets, Abraham a common ancestor through his sons Ishmael and Isaac. Both the Israelis and Palestinians claim they MUST HAVE Jerusalem as their capitol. Certainly there are those who would gladly share it, but those voices do not currently rise above the “all mine” voices.

  • Putney Swope

    As a former jewish person (was not 100%) I do take offense if anybody denies that holocaust has ever happened. posted by Lilya Lopekha

    First learn to spell holocaust. Second if your were in Poland in 1939-40 and you said this to an SS officer you would have been shot on the spot. How are you kidding.

    I’m not a religious Jew and find all religions wanting and the cause of so much strife in the world. However the Holocaust was not about religion, it was about a plan to wipe out every Jew and Gypsy in Europe and to murder and enslave as many Slavic people needed to build Hitler’s 1000 year reich and to expand the German empire. It was called the final solution.

    Your comments here and elsewhere on this forum are as I have said offensive. No gives a damn.

    By the way in up until the early 60′s Jews were denied seats at tables in a lot of the same restaurants that denied African Americans. Up until the late 50′s Ivy League Universities had quotas on how many Jews they let in.

    It was common to see signs in restaurants throughout the USA that read “No Dogs or Jews Allowed”. This is why they started there own vacation areas such as the one in the Catskills in New York. Your entitled to deny your background but millions died claiming what you have, not 100% Jewish, indeed.

  • Putney Swope

    As a former jewish person (was not 100%) I do take offense if anybody denies that holocause has ever happened.

    However, I take offense on false accusations and/or abuse of this horrible even

    It’s spelled Holocaust. Lilya if you were anywhere in occupied Europe from 1939 – 1945 you would have been shot on the spot for saying you were not Jewish. Which under the nazi laws of the period you would have been classified as a Jew. You could have denied to you were blue in the face or bleeding on the ground, it would not have meant a thing.

    You made statements about the Holocaust that was only something that happened in Europe. Your whole tone is degrading, and now you try to back track. No. Your not allowed to change your story here. It’s in black and white you have made your statements now live with them.

    You defend Ahmadinejad only to make your twisted misinformed points and to spout your thinly disguised anti-Israeli crusade.

    Are you aware that Antisemitism was rife in this country and still is. Up until the late 50′s most Ivy League Universities had quotas on how many Jews they let in.
    That is was common to see signs in restaurants and hotels all across the USA that read “No Dogs or Jews Allowed”, yes some were written with Jews being put under dogs. This was deliberate.

    You go on keep playing your word games, I for one am not being fooled by you.

  • http://www.bob'shairbusiness.com.au bob

    From Bob I think that u should f*#k a chicken and leave us alone!!!!!!

  • Putney Swope

    Very mature bob, very adult. Who are “us” actually?

  • R.M

    putney , she is a nut …with too many problems …don’t pay attention to her anymore …she is in her own nightmare … she is not jewish ….juat a plain antisemite…who is she fooling ….(just herself)

ONPOINT
TODAY
Jul 31, 2014
Russian President Vladimir Putin heads the Cabinet meeting in the Novo-Ogaryovo residence, outside Moscow, Russia, Wednesday, July 30, 2014.  (AP)

The US and Europe face off against Russia. Are we looking at Cold War II? Something hotter?

Jul 31, 2014
A comical sign suggest the modern workplace is anything but collegial . (KW Reinsch / Flickr)

When the boss is a bad apple. How some pretty dark traits can push some to the top.

RECENT
SHOWS
Jul 30, 2014
Janitta Swain, Writer/Exec. Producer/Co-Director Dinesh D'Souza, John Koopman, Caroline Granger and Don Taylor seen at the World Premiere of 'America: Imagine The World Without Her' at Regal Cinemas LA Live on Monday, June 30, 2014, in Los Angeles, CA. (AP)

Conservative firebrand Dinesh D’Souza says he wants an America without apologies. He’s also facing jail time. We’ll hear him out.

 
Jul 30, 2014
Smoke and fire from the explosion of an Israeli strike rises over Gaza City, Tuesday, July 29, 2014. Israel escalated its military campaign against Hamas on Tuesday, striking symbols of the group's control in Gaza and firing tank shells that shut down the strip's only power plant in the heaviest bombardment in the fighting so far. (AP)

Social media is changing how the world sees and talks about Israel and Gaza, Israelis and Palestinians. We’ll look at the impact.

On Point Blog
On Point Blog
Criticism, Conservatism And Dinesh D’Souza
Thursday, Jul 31, 2014

Best-selling conservative author and filmmaker Dinesh D’Souza and On Point host Tom Ashbrook disagree about what makes America great…or do they?

More »
2 Comments
 
This 15-Year-Old Caller Is Really Disappointed With Congress
Tuesday, Jul 29, 2014

In which a 15-year-old caller from Nashville expertly and elegantly analyzes our bickering, mostly ineffective 113th Congress.

More »
6 Comments
 
Our Week In The Web: July 25, 2014
Friday, Jul 25, 2014

Why the key to web victory is often taking a break and looking around, and more pie for your viewing (not eating) pleasure.

More »
Comment