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A Gaza Doctor's Case for Peace
Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish, a Palestinian doctor and peace activist who trained in Israel and became a regular fixture on Israeli television, rests his head on his son Abdullah, 6, in a car before traveling to Israel with his children, near his house in Jebaliya, in the northern Gaza strip, Wednesday, Jan. 21, 2009. Three of his daughters and a niece were killed by an Israeli shell which struck his house, and he returned to Gaza Wednesday to collect his remaining children. (AP)

Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish rests his head on his son Abdullah, 6, in a car near his house in Jebaliya, in the northern Gaza strip, Jan. 21, 2009. Three of his daughters and a niece were killed by an Israeli shell which struck his house, and he returned to Gaza to collect his remaining children. (AP)

Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish was, and is, that remarkable Palestinian welcome on both sides of the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

A resident of Gaza, fluent in Hebrew, deeply devoted to peace. An obstetrician who treated both Palestinians and Israelis — who was welcomed by Israeli medical colleagues, one of whom called him a “magical, secret bridge between Israelis and Palestinians.”

On January 16, in the Israeli invasion of Gaza, an Israeli tank shell hit his home — and killed three of his daughters. Three. And still he calls for peace.

This hour, On Point: A conversation with Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish.

You can join the conversation. Do you remember the news report back then? Of Dr. Abul Aish and his family’s tragedy? Could you keep reaching out for peace?

Tell us what you think — here on this page, on Twitter, and on Facebook.


Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish joins us in our studio.  He is a Palestinian physician, an obstetrician, living in Gaza and has worked closely with Israeli doctors for years treating patients and doing research at Soroka University Hospital in Beersheba in southern Israel. He lost three daughters and a niece when his home was shelled during the Gaza conflict in January.

Joining us from Tel Aviv is Gadi Taub, a writer, essayist and historian. He writes a regular op-ed column for Yediot Ahronot, Israel’s largest daily, and teaches at the Department of Communications and the School for Public Policy at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He is author of “Allenby,” “A Dispirited Rebellion: Essays on Contemporary Israeli Culture” and the forthcoming “The Settlers & the Struggle for the Meaning of Zionism.”

Dr. Abuelaish’s reaction to his daughter’s deaths was heard on Israeli TV:

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  • Lilya Lopekha

    I can see it coming….
    Calls coming in to OnPoint and messages here.
    “Any country has right to defend itself”
    “If Canadians send Rockets to Rochester, what would happen”

    Tom Ashbrook: you are supposed to ask the question that nobody asks.
    People in Gaza are also the resident owners of Ashkelon. They were ethnically and illegally cleansed from their homeland. Don’t they have the right to send rockets to their own land?

  • Mike

    Hi tom,

    can u ask

    Does israel state it a western democray? yes so therefore like the U.S.,UK should be challenged and called on its violations of human rights.If so sanction.

    Does the IDF censor free reporting in the gaza and west bank? Yes a free the press press should not be told by its military on what to report.

    Did israel expel arabs from there land for political reasons? Yes

    is israel occupying the west bank? Yes Jerusalem would not be divided if that was the case.

    is it against international law to move a occupying civilians on occupied land? yes

    Did not the FM of israel state he is against a 2 state solution, and for additional settlements? Yes

    is it a crime to not allow civilians to escape a conflict? yes

    is it a crime to use white Phosphorus in heavyly compacted areas? yes and people have both picture and video of this.

    In a western democracy is there freedom of speech? yes
    so therefore trying to silence dissent is against democracy. As seen in a rally against what israel has done by israelie, arab women that was not broadcast to the rest of the world.

    In a conflict does the native people have a right to return after the war?

    Is israel in violations of international law?

    Has the demonstration of muslim and arabs resulted in the killing of innocents? yes

    Is israel the only nation to box up a another ethic group?

    How do u have the right to defend yourself if you are on someone elses land?

    These questions posed are valid and factual yet i suspect it will not be asked.

    Can we have a open and honest discussion on how peace between both sides can be accomplished and both sides admitting its ills without name calling which seems to occur alot?

  • Mike

    Can u also ask why on Nov 4th israel sent in commandos into gaza to kill hamas officials breaking the cease-fire and causing hamas to send rockets, inturn caused Israel to invade?

    or the nasty attacks and smears that happen once these facts are pointed out along with a demonetization of the whole population of gazans and west bank to justify killing of innocents and civilians?

  • Toby

    Great three antisemitic posts already.

    Mike is a regular. He is obsessed with Jews. He spent three weeks attacking Israel on the Elie Wiesel program. I expect he will do the same here.

  • Toby

    That’s right Lilya Lopekha if some one attacked you home with rockets you would want to defend yourself.

    Why should Jews not be given the same rigth of self defense without being said to be evil?

    You are not a very subtle Jew hater.

  • Toby

    To NPR you guys are following in the BBC’s footsteps:


    “Jeremy Bowen guilty of breaking guidelines on inaccuracy and impartiality”

    April 15th 2009

    “This is a guest post by Chas Newkey Burden”

    “Breaking news: The BBC’s Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen has been found guilty by the BBC Trust’s Editorial Standards Committee (ESC) of breaking BBC guidelines on accuracy and impartiality in his coverage of Israel. (This is the news I mentioned that was due to break tomorrow morning. The announcement has been brought forward.)”

    This has been a long time coming. Time and time again Bowen has distorted and twisted his coverage of the Middle East. To list all the examples would be a mammoth undertaking. I have included a mere selection here, and here, and here, and here, and here and here.

    I got a first-hand experience of Bowen’s hideous bias when I saw him speak at a literary event some years ago. He preened and puffed out his chest as he claimed he was an impartial reporter. Yet all night, every time he said the word “Palestinian” his eyes glazed over, almost romantically, and every time he said the word “Israel” he spat it out.

    (Incidentally, Bowen’s book that he was launching that evening, about the Six Day War, has been described by Professor Efraim Karsh, a leading expert on the modern history of the Middle East, as: “superficial, derivative and rife with standard anti-Israel prejudice”. I’ve read the book, I think the Professor was too kind.)

    It is extraordinary to think that the BBC entrusts a man such as Bowen with coverage of such a monumentally important issue. As we saw during Operation Cast Lead, anti-Israel distortion contributes to the atmosphere of hate that leads to violence against Jews on the streets of Britain.

    The Zionist Federation said in response to today’s news: “Mr Bowen’s position as Middle East Editor of a public service broadcaster is untenable in the light of the ESC’s findings.”

    Too right. He is now officially guilty of breaking guidelines on impartiality and inaccuracy.

    He has to go.”


  • Lilya Lopekha

    Toby, Toby, Toby:

    I love Jews and Jew culture. Grew up with Jews; my best friends are jews, they are teaching me Russian last night.

    The problem is you cannot create justice based on lies and immoral garbage. Year 2030; Israel will still be there, standing strong with Tel-Aviv’s lavish lifestyle; Palestinians will start eating each other; and my Country, United States of America will start defaulting on bonds and Medicare and Social Security will be bankrupt.

    If my home was attacked with Rockets, and if my house was “stolen” from the former owner, then I would get the hell out the house and my family will be safe.
    Or, alternatively I would “buy” (b-u-y) [buuuuuuuuy] the house and pay premium to the real owner and then we will like best friends, because everybody will be happy.
    Why is it so difficult to get this?

    Instead pointing fingers with hatret let’s find a solution – which is very easy:

  • jeffe

    Lilya, Lilya ,Lilya you sound like so many raciest in this country, “some of my best friends are…”

    It’s interesting how you spill your vile diatribes on Israel and the Jews and yet you never mention how in countries such a Iraq, Syria and Egypt Jews have been persecuted and forced to leave their native countries for years.

    I don’t support what Israel did in Gaza. This was a huge mistake. However it seems to me that there will never be peace. One reason is people like yourself, who should go live in Gaza if you feel so strongly, who want Israel to cease being a country.

    I think Israel is at a huge crossroad and they might very well self destruct.

    It’s interesting how Lilya in the next post says, can’t we all get along. You can’t have it both ways.

    By the way Lilya, that land you live on is wanted back by the indigenous tribe that lived there. They say your people stole it from them and has treated them as second class citizens for centuries.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Jeffe, Jeffe, Jeffe;

    a) Where did you see racism in my message? I am the last on on the planet. Please do not personalize this board.
    b) I was not lying (in love with somebody who is very nice and is in love with that little country)[not kidding].
    c) Does not matter what I think and what you write on this board. The important thing is What that guy who is 19 years old in Gaza, who has a hungry kid and a sick mother and has no prospects of finding a job.
    d) We all support adequate compensation for all Native Americans. They are wonderful people; we should salute, pay and respect them anyday.
    e) The planet was virtually lawless before 1945 (United Nations); then there comes international laws.

    Why is it so difficult to understand? There cannot be Peace without Justice. If you want something really bad, you just “buy” it – Principles of Economics 101

  • Mari McAvenia

    Wanton murder is wanton murder, whether it’s Nazis vs. Jews, Israelis vs. Palestinians or white European settlers vs. Indigenous American tribes.

    Hatred, fear and intolerance make wanton murderers out of otherwise “normal” human beings.

    Listen to this man, people, and suspend your judgment of others who are not exactly like yourselves for one small hour of your lives.

    Why not? It can’t hurt you to open your minds up a little bit. Who knows, perhaps your hearts will follow if you let them.

    God gave human beings great big brains. Use them for a change, please.
    PEACE, for all our sakes!

  • E Travis

    Dear Dr. Abuelaish, I am heartbroken over your loss. You are a great example to hard line Arabs and Jews that seem to want to perpetuate this carnage.

    Tom, there is only two questions worth asking this extraordinary man,

    1. What must the Arabs and Jews who advocate for this kind of war do to end it? As you know, each claims the other is the aggressor.

    2. What must the rest of us do to make this insanity stop.

    Now I know I’ve only said two questions but I must ask one other. I have spent time in the Arab world and I know that saying what you are saying may cause some in the Arab community want to come after you. Is there anything we can do to keep you and your remaining family safe?

    May you and your family be safe always, Insha’Allah

  • Adam Shyevitch

    eeesh, these comments are disheartening. We must have more to say to each other than back and forth accusations and slander.

    Anyway, Dr. Abuelaish, I am humbled by your continuing commitment to peace, despite your terrible loss. I know there are Israelis who are similarly grieved and also remain committed to a solution that leaves all parties more secure, prosperous, and free.

    All the best to you and your struggles for peace within Gaza, in Israel, and beyond. You are an inspiration.

  • Moe

    So now that we heard from the doctor, we know the gazans are people just like us. It is sad to see on the news that there is almost a universal consensus that the israelis are more like us so their lives are more important than ‘backward muslim arab terrorists’. This was the kind of public thinking that allowed slavery, colonization, the holocaust etc to take place, that the other side is somehow inferior to us. sad sad sad

  • Adam Shyevitch

    A question for Dr. Abuelaish:

    What programs are you aware of that are doing the best work connecting Israelis and Palestinians across the conflict? I’m familiar with Seeds of Peace, located just north of here in Maine. Are there others that you would like to bring attention to?

  • Andy

    As a Jew, I ask, “when will it end?”

    Perhaps we need to rethink the whole basis (and need) for Zionism. Is there a justification, in 2009, for a Jewish state, any more than there is for an Islamic state or a Christian state?

    This may be radical, coming from a Jew, but we need to think large.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I have complained to some Jewish friends, “You are losing the moral high ground,” and I hear that they understand, yet the U.S. government seems to be supporting Israel not for love — call it love — not for respect. But support because we need a base in the Middle East. We need an unquestioning alliance. If we depended less on Middle East oil, we would be less implicated in some of Israel’s behavior. Israel might not so much be making enemies for themselves and for us.
    I surely remember the death of his daughters and was moved to more resolve to get the United States less in debt to unquestioning Israeli partnership. We would all be better. Israeli behavior makes people bitter citizens, not better citizens. Not to excuse some Arab policies. I only understand a certain amount.

  • Mason Singer

    “I’m sorry to play that again…”?? You didn’t HAVE to play it to begin with. Playing — and replaying — the audio clip of the sobbing, grieving Dr. Abuelaish was really obscene and unnecessary. His heartbreaking reaction to the loss of his daughters just shouldn’t be used to goose listener adrenaline in such a really cheap fashion. I turned off the show mid clip in disgust and didn’t hear what was probably an otherwise interesting and moving interview.

  • Hello

    I disagree. We should all hear that televised phone call. Over and over again. The horror of the recent assault on the people of Gaza should never be forgotten or diluted.

  • Mari McAvenia

    For ALL people who are interested in creating Peace, please take a look at this link:


    I am a member if iPeace. Please join our international community of peaceful human beings who seek a better way of life for our children and ourselves.

  • So Sad

    To Andy, yes, Zionism is the problem. The establishment of a state for any one particular religion is inherently racist. Israel’s founding was especially unjust because the Palestinians who got pushed out had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Jews should have taken a big chunk of Germany, a nation who had actually done them wrong.

    What a massively sad program. I’m certain I could not be as forgiving as the good doctor. He’s a better man than me.

  • jeffe

    “Any country has right to defend itself”
    “If Canadians send Rockets to Rochester, what would happen”

    “The problem is you cannot create justice based on lies and immoral garbage. Year 2030; Israel will still be there, standing strong with Tel-Aviv’s lavish lifestyle; Palestinians will start eating each other; and my Country, United States of America will start defaulting on bonds and Medicare and Social Security will be bankrupt.”

    Your posts Lilya, not mine. Your seem anti Israeli to me which is fine. Making it personal, you do this all the time, please.

    When you say things like “cannot create justice based on lies and immoral garbage” the conversation closes down for me.

    I have to agree with Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish 100% to me this man is a hero, slimmer of hope in land that is historically tragic.

  • jeffe

    So Sad, please go read some history. There were Palestinian and Arab units in the Nazi military.

    Hajj (Muhamed Effendi) Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem – (also Hussayni or Hajj Amin el Husseini) – (1895-1974) — A radical pro-Nazi Palestinian and Muslim leader, scion of the influential Husseini family of Jerusalem. In WW I, he fought for the Ottoman Turks as did many Jewish and Arab Palestinians but eventually changed sides.

    With Aref el-Aref, Husseini was largely responsible for riots started in 1920 (“Nebi musa”) . Husseini was jailed, but subsequently released and elected Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in an election rigged by Sir Herbert Samuel, the British High Commissioner, who thought to co-opt his radicalism. Because of his position and family connections, the Mufti had access to about 200,000 pounds annually, much of which was used to finance terror campaigns as well as to advance his own position.


  • Ellen Dibble

    Jeffe, terror campaigns against whom?
    I thought it was accepted that the British did a bad job of launching Israel (“Balfour” ring a bell anyone?), and I have the feeling that the folding up of a great empire like the Victorian one certainly can be messy. (Shadows of our future if we aren’t careful?)
    Your history lesson is very interesting and I hope Sad or someone will add more.

  • Justine McCabe

    I’m an anthropologist and clinical psychologist who’s done volunteer work in the West Bank/Gaza.
    I want to extend my deepest sympathies to Dr. Abluelaish for the loss of his daughters and neice.

    I have two comments.

    First, I think it’s very important to recognize that while Dr.Abuelaish’s non-violent stance for peace in the face of the continuing existential threat to him and other Palestinians, is a sublime example of this stance, it also marks the behavior of most Palestinians. That is, the majority of Palestinians fight for peace and justice by a most basic act–the daily struggle to keep their families alive and together on their land and in their homes.

    Second, Dr. Abuelaish embodies the basic reality of this conflict in 2009: Palestinians and Israelis are inextricably linked by their mutual suffering, mutual attachment to the same place they all call home. It seems that this suffering–again, exemplified by the losses of Dr. Abuelaish–demands the transformation of the current zero sum game into creating somthing in which they both have a stake–one democratic state, a homeland to two peoples.

  • sept1

    Today’s pogram was both misleading and demonstrative of On Point’s false pretense of “showing both sides”. It was a continuation of your policy of always being afraid of presenting even the most moderate palistenean without presenting an isreali rebutal

    why do you always have an isreali hawk on whenever you have a palistenean on?

    why did you not point out or ask the isreali to respond to the fact that hamas has continually stated that if the palistenean nation was offered a real nation with the pre-1967 war borders, and if the palisteneans voted for it in a referendum, hamas would accept that outcome?

    why didn’t you ask the isreali why palisteneans are rquired to recongnize isreal before being given a nation but isreal not only has never recognized the palistinean’s right to a nation but has elected a government thqt explictedly denied palisteneans’ right to a nation? Why do you never challenge the zionist position that palisteneans’ refusal to recognize Isreal before being given a state while isreal is never required to recognize palistine as a condition of support, recognition or anything else

    Why don’t you ever have a hamas spokesperson present hamas’s position instead of having isreali hawks presenting their version of hamas’s position.

  • somerset

    I can’t conceive of the anguish Dr. Abuelaish must have – at the time, and still – and I almost can’t listen to the broadcast and description of what happened. I was raised a “sophisticated,” fairly hard right, conservative, upper class, Eastern establishment, midwest-moved-to-New-England, Republican,
    prepschool/Ivy League, basically “hawkish” US stance…and I just feel my heart break listening to this, Dr. Abuelaish’s controlled but undoubted devastation and unspeakable heartache. It is hard, of course, not to react and want to root out the commander responsible for ordering/permitting the tank action, and have him hung, drawn, and quartered…or leaving out the hanging, just have him drawn and quartered alive…but we know this is just more of the same. The essence of Christ or Buddha or similar…of true religion and love…to forgive and have compassion even on one’s oppressors – to reflect and stand with the essential humanity and vulnerability of all of us – is the only ultimate truth and solution…we all pass away into dust and nothingness in 70 or 80 years anyway, or sooner, and none of these struggles on a “darkling plain…where ignorant armies clash by night” or anything else we in our vanity think so important really ultimately last or matter, except love, if it can; but it is still utterly heartbreaking and appalling to hear about this. I commend and respect Dr. Abuelaish for his effort to bring something positive out of this – and it may well an instrument of God to show us the horror of our inhumanity – but I still grieve for him that foundations, etc., wonderful as they and their purpose are, are no subsitute for his daughters. May God bless you and help to ease your pain, Dr. Abuelaish.

  • jeffe

    “Your history lesson is very interesting” Very interesting?
    Are you kidding me? Have you ever heard of the Muslim Brotherhood?

  • jeffe

    Hamas wants all Jews to die sept1, For those who don’t know
    Sept 1 is an old PLO moniker. Back in the day when they were hijacking planes and killing Israeli athletes at the Olympics.

  • http://www.house.gov/list/press/il10_kirk/Kirk_Berkley_condemn_Hamas.html Frederic C.

    To Andy, yes, Zionism is the problem. …
    Israel’s founding was especially unjust…
    The Jews should have taken a big chunk of Germany,…
    –Posted by So Sad, on April 15th, 2009 at 10:54 am EDT

    Seriously? That’s the position of the madman President Mahmud AHMADI-NEJAD of Iran.

    The Jews gave birth to western civ. let them have their home back.

    BTW. It’s not Israelis vs. Palestinians, it’s Arabs vs. Israelis. The Palestinians are fodder, warm meat for the Arabs to beat the Israelis with.

  • Dr. J. P. Leary

    Listening to Dr. Abuelaish, I heard a man typical of the Palestinians.

    Why did Tom Ashbrook NOT pursue an answer to the person who called in asking ‘what percentage of Israeli’s want Peace’? (In the light of the most recent Israeli elections, ony Hawks were on the election slate!)

    Why were only the Israeli deaths numbered? Why did no one on today’s program cite the far more numerous Palestinian deaths?

    Why did you have the second person who clearly was misrepresenting facts: BOTH Israel and Hamas have said they want the other off the land. Hamas is NOT the Palestinian people.

    Palestinians want Peace.
    Israeli’s on the other hand, want Palestinian LAND and will do all they can, including Genocide of the Palestinians, in order to take Land that is not theirs.
    Read Jimmy Carter, read Jeff Halper (an Israeli), read Ilan Pappe.

    WBUR- we have heard the Israeli “side’” for 60 years, it is time to take off your Muzzle and feel free to state the Truth about Zionist ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The U.S. public NEEDS to know the Truth.
    Please give the complete story of what happened in Gaza, 1/09; it is the beginning of a Genocide against Gazan Palestinians by Israeli’s.
    Please invite Alison Weir to be on your show (again?); her Website is “If Americans Knew”!

    Please plan a WBUR program about stopping U.S. funding to the Israeli military!
    It is not a ‘War’ when the Palestinian side has only rocks and 4th of July rockets, and the Israeli’s have NUCLEAR weapons… funded by U.S. tax dollars.)

  • http://www.house.gov/list/press/il10_kirk/Kirk_Berkley_condemn_Hamas.html Frederic C.

    Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish shining example of the goodness of man.

    He is part of the proof that goodness exists in the Palestinian people and that it is the outside forces that frustrate peace in the region.

    There will never be peace as long as the Palestinians serve as a multi purpose tool for Muslim governments in the region.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I share somerset’s background and wonder about the “hawkish stance” he registers. It was part of the wallpaper of education during the Cold War, and it was very hard to understand, let alone question, the military/industrial complex. Come to find out, we were not supporting democracies but rather dictators, using the domino theory. Am I wrong? Was not the Shah of Iran one? The hawkishness countered the threat of atomic annihlation.
    Under George W. Bush, as if to make up for all that, the U.S. tried hard to “stand up” democracies (over which we had dominion) — first in Iraq. Now Afghanistan. Why? Is there nuclear annihilation on the horizon?
    Maybe we need to create enemies in order to feed the defense industry, the research that started the internet, that started so much science. A basic seed of our capitalism being that facet, the military. I suppose conservative Republicanism is about that and the hawkishness of it. (Could we let peace break out between Palestinians and Jews? Drink the koolaid.)
    We need better rocks for the foundation of our economy, not foreign oil and instruments of war. Let us beat our swords into plowshares once again.
    I say that like a woman that I am, more passivist than not.

  • sept1

    RE: jeffe’s comments

    once again the anti-palistenaean movement attacks people with misrepresentations rather than debating facts. Your refering to the black september movement. I have never heard of a palistenean sept 1 movement. nor has wikipedia or, apperently, google.


  • Lilya Lopekha

    Jeffe, Jeffe, Jeffe

    PLO never hijacked a Chinese airplane.
    Hamas does not hate Budhist Monks.
    …because those people did not do anything bad to their land – Palestine.

    Please … forget about your ethnic, religious or passaportic ties to the Middle East and deal with reality.

    Think about this: This poor guy, Doctor’s message is a wonderful good and humanistic message, right? But, I am a soon to be Mom average human being. If anybody touches my baby, let alone killing her with inhumane and illegal weapons, I will chase them for revenge until hell freezes. This will be the reaction shown by any almost any father, from Obama to Palin; from Patagonia to Mars.

    Have the deepest respect for the Doctor. He is an angel in disguise; but he must be faking his emotions for the sake of the remaining five kids and his family and perhaps for his nation. Otherwise, his comments would not see the light of day. If he did not have his message of irresistable Love and Peace, we would not be hearing from him; and USA would not offer visa, perhaps without him applying. I am guessing, but problably this lovely Doctor and his entire family will be a US citizen pretty soon. Bribery into submission at its best!

    Please let’s not lose our liveral touch with reality. There will be many many more innocent kids being killed by our weapons, until we go the cause of the problem and solve it…. which is the OCCUPATION / Occupasionne / Occupationette.

  • what’sleft

    sept1. So Israelis are hawks and hamas are doves ….are you insane?

  • what’sleft

    Everyone seems to forget there were 1 million Jewish refugees kicked out of Arab lands . The UN doesn’t even mention it . lets be fair . If we talk about one , there needs to be recognition about the other.

  • Ellen Dibble

    If we are shifted onto retirement investments, sort of linking to the first hour, somehow, I wonder if Dr. Leary has better control over his investments than I have achieved. I ask for “socially responsible” and get “sin-free,” which has nothing to do with a sustainable future, or with a future at all, that I can tell, except enough profits the next quarter to persuade investors not to pull out their funds. Institutional investors of large funds could be wielded by pressure from the babyboomers into supporting an economy with a firmer foothold, but how. Anyone with money is voting with those resources, maybe voting blind. I heard on network TV, I believe, that the Muslim funds, because interest is not allowed (usuary anyway), have not been hit too hard. I am tempted.
    I might have my passport pulled…
    This is so far from the fate of the Palestinian doctor’s children, yet it is exactly where we have some say.

  • Mike

    if u like please read the Elie Wiesel program to see why i responed to toby, and the internet troll r.m. post.

    I think what the doctor did today and the push for peace for both sides is great and both should recognized the ill that were committed and move forward together.

    As some included post from toby to demonized even the HR A.international and call anyone anti-semetic or close to it and anyone that crictized on what happen in gaza,
    u can also see the post i put about this doctor story in which was demonized as well by toby and the likes.

    It is very good to hear like i pointed out on those post and others not every person in gaza is a terrorist and that people no matter color, race or culture’s should have equal value and treated with respect and the good doctor has told his story that not even the intolerant toby and others can spin.

    Because Israel is a western democracy it should be held to the standards of a western democracy.

  • Len – Watertown

    To On Point Radio staff:
    Thank you for presenting the Palestinian side of this horrible conflict, a side we don’t hear enough of. The Israeli lobby- AIPAC, etc -
    has immense power and resources to influence our government, as well as what we hear in this country regarding this war.
    I hope that this is just the beginning of a regular discussion on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and you would consider speakers from Jewish Voice for Peace, Noam Chomsky, and others.

  • R.M.

    Thanks Toby . This is the best news about the BBC I have received !!!!!!! I have heard nothing about it on NPR so far… Time to investigate the United nation and Amnesty International .As I always say : “the truth always comes out in the end”

  • D.L.H.G.

    Check out the movie “The Case for Israel” to get your facts straight about the conflict. And don’t forget about all the Arab countries surrounding Israel, Gaza and the West Bank that fund the terrorists and their weapons. I don’t see this money going to improve the living conditions. And how can these citizens allow their innocent children to be human shields for these rockets? Where is the Amnesty International report with this issue?

    I certainly hope that the message of peace presented by Dr. Abuelaish helps people to find ways to live together in peace. Isn’t that what Israel has wanted? PEACE!

    Did Israel fire back immediately when its citizens were being targeted by rockets? No. How long did that go on before Israel actually attacked?
    Why didn’t anyone mention that it was a very long time before anything was done in retaliation.

    Also – don’t forget that the Palestinians rejected offers for a Palestinian State when offered. The Palestinian authorities would rather destroy the Jews and Israel than have a legitimate state of their own. Think of all the energy they have spent – and lives lost – to pursue this.

    Also – the land that many claim they were “kicked off” of, was purchased legally by Israeli citizens. Many foreign landowners sold the land to the Israelis legally. And don’t forget that many Arabs that left in 1948 were told to leave by the Arab nations that had planned to attack and destroy the Jewish state. And again – don’t forget that Jews were forced to leave Arab countries and needed a land where they could live freely.

    Stop bashing Israeli citizens.

  • http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=12&x_article=1655 Frederic C.


    There is a Palestinian experience.

    To say that there is a, ‘Palestinian side,’ is fallacious representation of the situation.

    Israel is not at at war with, ‘Palestinians.’

    I found one Google hit for the following quote: “israel is in a state of war with palestinians.’ and that was a redit posting.

    Israel is in a hostile land surrounded by the remnants – progeny of a bloody, conquest minded ideology and caliphate.

    No one can deny that muslims on the whole are decent people. Islam was crafted after a viable template.

    Islam spread by a synergy of blood thirsty greed and genuine religious longing.

    Who is to say what the prime move is in Islam. If not for the sword how would Islam rank in history?



  • Carole

    I am so sorry this became a forum for more oppositional thinking and blaming. We should all be discussing the ways in which we can support the peace makers. When I first heard about the doctor’s losses, I was devastated. I had to do something, so I got on the Internet and researched ways to support those efforts and the efforts of Palestinians toward economic sustainability. For those who are interested in doing similar research, check out http://www.dalia.ps/ It was started by an American Jewish woman living in East Jerusalem and her husband, a Palestinian UN psychologist.

  • R.M.

    Occupation happened when Israel was attacked in 1967 , after six days of war , Israel defeated three Arab armies .Finally in good faith for the sake of peace ,Israel left Gaza . ..Ever Since rockets have been fired into israel .There is no occupation in Gaza , what’s the excuse ? I think the Palestinians don’t want peace because it will end their cash donation from the world …and many won’t be able to fill their suisse bank accounts ….(just like arafat and his wife)

  • Mike

    People are allowed to speak up for the suffering and dont let hater mongers on the Israel right tell you otherwise.

    Let the facts speak for themselves no matter what some on this post may say, there are facts on the ground that say otherwise. no matter what some on this post will say about what israel is doing is not wrong or justify it by saying hamas does not make it right. and still break the law no matter how hard they try to spin it.

    the pally and israel conflict cannot move forward until it recognized that a wrong, many btw has occurred and move forward together conpensate if necessarily and move forward towards peace.

    Instead this will occur from some on this post against any arab, and anyone not subscribing to there views.

    they will not debate the facts and causes but personally attack and push the conversation to something else.

    the buying of the west bank is news to me, since its currently illegal under international law to be there in the first place.

  • Mike

    Dont let these internet troll hijack the thread with the “everyone bad except use mentality” or “arabs were bad so can we”

    peace cannot be acheived by calling everyone on the other side a terrorist or supporter and the good doctor has shown this

    I found this below that describes what these trolls do instead of elevating debate and having a common respect of other views they personally attack, misrepesent, or leave out facts let say the (foxes news of the thread).

    ‘Anti-Semitism’ As
    A Political Weapon
    By Lasse Wilhelmson

    Criticising Israel´s mistakes is acceptable. But questioning whether Israel is a Jewish state with a racist apartheid system that renders non-Jews second rate citizens – that is not acceptable. It makes little difference whether the criticism is based on facts. Few people who cannot claim Jewish descent would dare to criticize publicly. They are afraid of being accused of “anti-semitism”.

    There is much talk of disarming countries with nuclear weapons. Not the US and its allies, but the so-called ‘rogue states’, especially Iran, which doesn´t yet have any weapons. Israel is hardly ever mentioned as a nuclear power although it has been for a long time. In spite of its advanced plans to bomb Iran, Israel is not seen as a threat to the surrounding world. The media regularly criticizes severely various religions, especially Islam, but never Judaism. Catholic pressure through lobbying, or the Pope´s speeches on political issues are discussed and criticized. The fight in South Africa against the Boers involved a whole world. Not because they were a “race” with undesirable characteristics, but because they were the social group who in their own interests formed and administrated a racist apartheid system. The same sort of criticism was aimed at the followers of Cecil Rhodes in Rhodesia.

    All types of social, ethnic and religious groups defend their own special interests. It is considered quite legitimate for their spokesmen to do their best to promote these interests; just as it is quite legitimate to criticize the same. But the moment Jewish spokesmen and their organisations are criticised, the legitimacy vanishes into thin air. The mention of “Jewish power” makes most people´s blood run cold, but it is quite alright to discuss “gypsy power” or rather the lack of it. “Jewishness” has become taboo. This applies particularly to the combination of “Jewish” and of “power” . All kinds of power can be examined and discussed, questioned or rejected – but not the Jewish kind which is generally presented as non-existent.

    There is growing anxiety in the Palestinian movement in Sweden about using “Jewish” as a prefix to the settlements, the state of Israel or the apartheid system, albeit the use is quite correct. The settlements for example are “Jewish settlements” simply because only Jews are allowed to live there. They are not Israeli because non-Jewish citizens are forbidden access to them. Neither are they Zionist as many Zionists are not Jews. It has now got to the stage where a leading spokesmen for the Palestinians in Sweden denies that Jews and Palestinians have disagreements, despite the law giving Jews all over the world the right to return to Israel, thus making them potential enemies of the Palestinians. Having a Jewish mother gives the right to live in the country taken from the Palestinians. One would be hard put to find a more fundamental disagreement. The issue of blood-relationship renders it, moreover, racist.

    A reluctance to discuss Judaism´s significance for Zionism in Israel of today makes it impossible to understand why Israel was not content with fifty per cent, later eighty per cent, of Palestine. Or why a social democratic prime minister ordered his soldiers to break the bones of children throwing stones? And how can one understand why Jews in Jerusalem throw their garbage onto the roads and back yards of their Palestinian neighbours, spit at them, or why masked Jewish settlers during the “cease fire” launched pogroms on unarmed Palestinian farmers, women and children? Or why the Israeli “peace movement” and “left” do not question the Jewish apartheid system? Just and lasting peace can never be achieved without its transformation. Few people think that all this is a result of the Jews being an “evil race”. But if it cannot be explained by any other means, the few risk becoming too many. A racially-based hate of Jews is helped along by the label of “anti-semitism” pasted on nearly all criticism of Israel, not to mention criticism of Judaism.

    Zionism, through its Jewish organisations, is the dominant interpretation of Judaism today. This is a renaissance of national Judaism of the Middle Ages and the judicial system Halakha with its extreme animosity towards non-jews who were seen rather as subhuman. This revival is seen as very beneficial by most Jewish organisations worldwide. They demand of their members positive commitment to the state of Israel. This is the context in which the behaviour mentioned above can be understood. Most Jews in the diaspora are, however, “happily” unaware of this and are being used by their Zionist leaders and rabbis.

    Politics and religion have merged in the state of Israel today. A person speaking out for a secular democracy to replace the Jewish state, is accused of, in fact, wanting to “drive the Jews into the sea”. Most Jews today identify themselves not with Israel but with Israel as a Jewish state. This creates a fundamental contradiction for many Jews: supporting the Jewish apartheid state while promoting democracy in the countries where they actually live. Denying or whitewashing Israel´s politics, becomes a way of keeping one´s identity intact. Violent, groundless attacks with “anti-semitism” as a weapon is the method used against any attempt to lay bare this contradiction. A well known example is how Israel´s former ambassador to Sweden vandalised the art installation Snow White last year.

    The risk of being labelled “anti-semitic” if you are not a Jew or of “self-hatred” if you are, creates self-censorship among those who are critical of Israel´s policies or dislike the successful lobbying carried out by Jewish and Christian Zionists, influencing US foreign policy. The so- called Friends of Israel, most of them spokesmen for Jewish organisations, have taken it upon themselves to be the foremost interpreters of the term “anti-semitism”. Few question this role as they run the risk of being tainted themselves if they do. The term “anti-semitism” is taking on new nuances all the time. Of late the slightest implication, as in “almost anti-semitic” or an “anti-semitic point of in terest” has been enough to invoke self-censorship. The mention of these circumstances is often felt to be “dangerous” as it could lead to the growth of “anti-semitism”. All this in a western world where islamophobia is a considerably greater problem.

    Jews are rightly proud of their success in almost all corners of society. In art and science and, not least, the media and politics. Israeli newspapers tell of the successful “likudification” of the Bush administration and delight in the fact that the Israeli minister for the diaspora is Bush´s new favourite author and pet in the White House. Russian oligarchs with Israeli citizenship take breakfast there. There is a culture of boasting about this among Jews. But should a critic of Israel point to these exact same circumstances, he would immediately be accused of spreading “anti-semite theories of conspiracy” and thus be barred from any further discussion.

    The Jews have for many years had total entrepreneurship of “God´s chosen People” with a “biblical right” to Palestine. Zionism has been politically successful in reducing the Holocaust to Nazi war crimes against Jews. By presenting themselves as the major (the only?) victims in the history of humanity they expect to claim special moral rights. The method is used favourably to justify and cover up the genocide of the Palestinians. “Anti-semitism” is being used to stop criticism of Israel´s way onwards to achieve the Zionist goal of a Jewish state in the whole of Palestine. Before this goal can be realised, “peace” must be reached with the creation of a few Palestinian reservations on ten per cent of what was originally Palestine, walled-in and gradually wasting away. We are almost there now.

    About the Author

    Lasse Wilhelmson was born in 1941 in Sweden. Part of Wilhelmson’s family fled to Sweden from the Czar’s pogroms during the 1880s. Some members of the family immigrated further to America and Palestine. Wilhelmson lived in Israel for several years during the early 1960s. He also published the article “Israel Must Choose the Path of Democracy” the 16th of September 2003 and “More Than Traditional Colonialism and Apartheid” the Feb. 16, 2004 in The Palestine Chronicle. Today he considers himself to be a Swede as well as an atheist, and all his family is assimilated. He does not accept being defined as a “religious Jew” just because his mother was Jewish.


    Thank u carol for leaving that site and the others who care about the suffering of other rather than the race or religion.

  • R.M.

    don’t let the cult like brainwashed so called radical left who marched with nazis for gaza hijack the real left ……

  • R.M.

    hahahah what a joke ….Trying to compare Israel to south Africa is not going to stick …just because you repeat it over and over again doesn’t make it so ..You want to see real apartheid go to Saudi Arabia ..No there is no” Jewish Cabal ” controlling the world financial system …..If it had , there would not have been 6 million Jews assassinated while the world was quiet …..Its so easy to scape-goat minorities …For a while now it has been for the immigrants ..(and that has been going on for quite a few years!!!! ) this poem is quite appropriate

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me–
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

  • millard-fillmore

    Here’s a video:

    I don’t know how people can be so sure that any one side is to blame exclusively, or feel sympathy for any one side and not the other. I mean, there’s so much propaganda on both sides, and each side wants to project itself as the victim, that there’s no way to decipher the truth from propaganda. So what exactly are people believing the “truth” to be, based only on selective and filtered exposure to certain pictures or words? Do they even ask questions of themselves whether what they are exposed to is truth or propaganda, and how do they tell the difference? Or do they just swallow whatever NPR or any other media dishes out, as the unvarnished truth? Let me know if you’ve figured it out.

    I’m reminded of that story where 6 blind men feel different parts of an elephant, and then come up with conclusions about what an elephant is like, based only on their touch and their experience.

    So the first step is to not believe someone if they paint only one side as angels and the other side as demons.

    If someone acknowledges that both sides made mistakes, then that person is closer to the truth than rest others who continue to take sides, and there’s some chance of a solution. But continuing to take sides on this issue won’t solve anything and we can keep playing this game and one-upping each other and firing salvos of “you did this-no you did this” till the cows come home.

    Frankly speaking, I could care less. When Israelis and Palestinians get tired of fighting each other, they’ll learn to make peace.

  • Mark L. Taylor

    My sincerest condolences to Dr. Abuelaisch and his family for their loss. As an American I want to apologize to Dr. Abuelaisch and his family for the role my country, my leaders and my tax dollars played in the deaths of his daughters, neice and brothers. The blood of these children stains the hands and hearts of every American. It is time we pressure our leaders to take a more balanced, realistic and courageously compassionate stance in helping to bring peace to Gaza.

    Dr. Abuelaisch is a true leader and lesson in compassion. We need to listen in humility to the lesson this fine man is offering us.

    Mark L. Taylor

  • sept1

    RE: what’sright’s comments.

    I never said hamas are doves and israelis are hawks. Nor do I support hamas: I support the palistiniean right to live in peace and under a democratic government in greater palistine.

    If you read what I wrote instead of what the israel lobbyists tell that I wrote you’d know that I said that On Point almost always has an isreali hawk on as counterpoint whenever it presents a palistinian point of view.

    No, I am not insane; rather, the problem is that
    you are either illiterate or purposefully dishonest.

  • http://singlefatherfitness.com Jon Stemmler

    Stunning. If his vision ever comes to be, or not, Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish is a living example of what is possible. While that thing that is named the ‘masses’ might continue to base reason and killing on right versus wrong, the Doctor turns this reason in on itself. His large acts, even if quite to most of the world, might be just enough to get some man or woman living on a quite alley on either side of the conflict, through the day. The Doctor reminds us that, in reality, the masses are made mostly of humble individuals. It is only when we get together and take sides that his vision is challenged. He’s won already, no matter what happens. His faith is keeping his daughters alive, for all of us.

  • R.M.
  • R.M.
  • Mari McAvenia

    Dr. al-Aish has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

    Can any of the entrenched combatants in this discussion claim that for themselves or for their own personal causes? No.

    My late grandmother, who lost her merchant marine captain husband, my grandfather, to German nazis in 1942, might disagree with my tone here, but I will state my true feelings nevertheless:
    Shut up and LISTEN to Dr. al-Aish!

    PEACE is the only way out.

    Thank you,

  • susan caba (saab-ah)

    I remember hearing an early interview of Dr. (????) on BBC. I had to pull to the side of the road to listen. Coverage of the Israeli invasion of Gaza had been scant in the U.S. I was amazed and profoundly touched when I first heard his description of the attack on his home. In his situation, I don’t think I could even survive, let alone speak out and continue to push for peace. I have long believed that Israel is equally responsible for the shambles of the peace process. I hope that, sometime soon, the leadership of the Israelis and Palestinians are in convergence for their desire for peace.

  • Marguerite

    I appreciate that this interview was broadcast today. The ability of Dr. Abuelaish to remain calm and proactive in the face of the horrendous tragedy he has experienced shows us what a true human being is capable of. I am Jewish and have long ago come to the conclusion that Israel’s actions amount to war crimes. It seems that its actions in and against Gaza have made many more aware of the humanitarian crisis it has created. Let us hope that the spirit of Dr. Abuelaish will prevail.

  • Sarah Schneider

    In the introduction to this story, the question was posed: Could you still fight for peace? The question was asked in relation to the doctor’s loss of 3 doctors to an Israeli tank shell.
    My question in response: How could you NOT fight for peace?!
    Too much time is spent showing different from each other we are and ‘justice’ is found in revenge. What else can we expect than more violence when we react in kind? If any of us really wants the fighting to end, we must be willing to turn the other cheek. We only create another casualty when we react with hate and vengeance.
    So if we want peace, we must PRACTICE peace.
    So again, I ask, how could that doctor and how could each of us, NOT FIGHT FOR PEACE?!

  • Jessica

    This is the first radio program in so many years which made me cry. My heart goes out to this man. I don’t think I could be so noble. This is my stance: anti-semetism is wrong, and so is Zionism. If Israelis have a biblical and historical right to their homeland, then all the groups of displaced cultures and religions in the world do as well, and then how do you solve that problem? The creation of the Israeli state was a mistatke b/c it was created at the expense of Palestinian suffering. However, Israel is there to stay- the state cannot be removed now at this late stage… But they are in the wrong and they must make concessions to the Palestinian people, they must stop the genocide they are perpetrating upon the people of Gaza. Those who didn’t die in the recent attacks will surely die of amputation, infections, lack of sanitation. These people are like fish in a barrel, waiting to be shot! I have a friend who just returned from Gaza- he is a physician. I saw the awful pictures-they haunt me daily. Americans must wake up and put a stop to the billions of dollars we give to the State of Israel. How can a people who have suffered the world’s most horrific genocide, turn around, invade the Palestinian land and then commit genocide themselves? NPR needs to cover the plight of the Palestinian people more so that we have one balanced source in the U.S. Then, maybe Americans will see what kind of war we are funding, and maybe we will forget about our lattes and What kind of dog the Obama’s have.

  • D.L.H.G.

    First let me say that I am very sad for the deaths of Dr. Abu al-Aish’s family.
    Mark Taylor states: “As an American I want to apologize to Dr. Abuelaisch and his family for the role my country, my leaders and my tax dollars played in the deaths of his daughters, neice and brothers. The blood of these children stains the hands and hearts of every American.”

    Do not include the name of every American in your statement, as I do not believe your statement is true. It disgusts me that you have totally disregarded the innocent lives have been destroyed by Hamas and Hezbollah rockets and bombs. Israel needs help defending itself. Israel (the only Democracy in the region) is being targeted every day by enemies on all sides. I see Israel – a country that wants to live peacefully, that has supported the inhabitants Gaza and the West Bank (giving better healthcare services to its people than that received by Arabs living in surrounding countries) and yet still deals with kidnappings and daily rocket launches, has created numerous inventions that have helped people worldwide – as a worthy friend of the United States. The money that we send to Israel goes to help with the defense of her people. Don’t forget the Israelis are teaching their children about participating in community service worldwide and working toward peace, while Hamas is teaching their children to hate and dress as homicide bombers.

    I pray for peace in the region and hope that Dr. Abu al-Aish’s message of peace reaches everyone in this world.

  • Abdul

    Hi Tom and Dr. “Peace”
    I am extremely impressed by your guest’s courage, patience, visionary and optimistic outlook.
    I think his stance has more power than any weapon could ever have. At the same token we Americans need to look more deeply at our role in this war and how much our needed tax money is going to countries that commit some of the worst arocities that affect more civilians than any other.
    Tom thank you for bringing guests like him on your show and giving human voice to this immoral war that has been going on for too long.
    I wish the best for Dr. “Peace”.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Let’s find a solution to the Middle East.

    Can somebody post one thing that is negative and not fair about the suggested solution here?:

  • Morris Wills

    Dear Tom,

    Was Dr. Abuelaish in the studio with you? If he was, did you feel the greatness of his soul? Did it humble you? Did it make you cry. Did it make you want to be a better man?

    For me, I say yes to all of the above. I’m not a religious man, but honest to God, I thought I heard Jesus speaking. Or at the very least I heard words from a man who is probably very much like the Jesus I would like to believe in if I could. Or maybe I’m mistaken. Maybe it was Gandhi I heard, or Martin Luther King Jr. At any rate, I feel humbled, changed, and a little in awe of this courageous man who is turning his righteous grief into a painful, yet loving plea for a return to humanity.

    Are we humane enough, or rather human enough to hear his cry? Are we human to feel his pain? Are we human enough to try to make things right?

    No fence, no wall, no barbed wire, no guns, no opression, no hatred, no racism will ever deny our common humanity. As the Dr. said: “We all have eyes, we all have ears…” we just need to open our minds and grasp the idea that we are all just people. We all want to live in peace and safety. We just want to live, to love, and to to provide the best for our children.

    Thank you Dr. You make me want to be a better man. Please accept my grief, my appreciation, and my support.

  • Frederic C.





  • Mike 71

    Neither Zionism, nor Palestinian Nationalism is the problem; it is the attitude of either that one group, to the exclusion of the other, is entitled to all of the former British Mandate! Hamas is only the mirror image of the Likud “Greater Israel” settler movement, which claims all of the land for Israelis, while Hamas claims it all for the Palestinians! There will be no peace on either side of the Gaza border until whatever side initiating violence and wishing to seek peace for itself, is willing to grant peace for those across the border. The injection of religion into the argument only exacerbates the hatred; no one questions the right of Iran and Saudi Arabia to be “Islamic States,” yet they question the right of Israel to be a “Jewish State!” There should be no “double-standard” here; such hypocrisy is the mark of the intolerant. The raising of the ghost of Apartheid is a fraud; while South-Africa was ruled by a white minority of 10% of the total population, Israel has always been ruled by majority of its population, not ethnic minority governments! Finally, Palestinians and Arabs will have to acknowledge that while Palestinians were displaced by the 1948 Israeli “War of Independence” and the 1967 “Six Day War,” Jews were also expelled from Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad and other Arab cities and allowed resettlement in Israel. No Arab state, with the exception of Jordan which granted Palestinians citizenship, has done the same for Palestinians! Many displaced Palestinians remain in squalid refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria and elsewhere!

    My heartfelt condolences go out to Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish for the losses of his daughters and niece. He has always been an advocate for peace between Palestinians and Israelis and his fervent desire for peace has not been diminished by his losses! It is almost always the innocent who are the casualties of war, not those whom for narrow sectarian motivations, who start these wars! Both Zionism and Palestinian Nationalism are valid national liberation movements, which must come to the realization that there must be mutual respect and recognition in order to achieve peace!

    God Willing, InshaAllah

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Let’s find a solution to the Middle East.

    Can somebody post one thing that is negative and not fair about the suggested solution here?:

  • Lilya Lopekha
  • R.M.

    The bodies of Israelis Ya’acov (Kobi) Mandell and Yosef (Yossi) Ish-Ran, both 14, were found inside the Haritun Cave in Nahal Tekoa, . Their heads had been smashed in by rocks.
    they were murdered while out hiking On May 8th 2001, the 2 boys skipped school to go hiking .They were killed brutally, viciously with utter cruelty, in a cave, pummelled with bowling ball sized rocks.Their skulls had been crushed, and their blood was smeared everywhere and on the entrance of the cave where they died.

  • Ellen Dibble

    I wish Lilya would give us a clue what is at the humangenome web site. Maybe I’m not alone in that. Too old to enjoy surfing. Need short form.
    It is new to me that the expulsion of Jews from cities such as North Africa is seen to parallel expulsion of Palestinians from what is now Israel. Well, I knew about that but didn’t know it was part of the argument. (A lot of distortions crop up when an issue gets heated and entrenched, like this.)
    I always thought the lucky Jews came to the U.S. Did we have some limit such that they had to displace Arabs from their lands instead? Oh. The Biblical promises weigh in here, but it seems that foisting ancient religious contracts with the divine upon modern politics has not worked out well.
    It is hard to argue with God’s Promise, though.
    The shadow of apartheid is not something I dismiss lightly. A “Jewish state.” (Is the US a Christian state? Was it? Is Swat a Muslim state now more than Pakistan?) As I understand it, a lot of the Israeli efforts to segregate the Palestinians is anticipatory of their outnumbering the Jews in their own land (the Israeli state), where Palestinians have more children and keep becoming the majority, here and there, if not displaced. If the policies of Israel are designed to guarantee that Palestinians remain in the minority, is it a true democracy? Not exactly, but maybe close enough.
    If Israeli people need U.S. support for anything other than defense, I don’t know about it. If I wanted to “adopt” an orphan, I doubt organizations who pick out the needy would pick Israel. If I wanted to make a microloan to help launch someone’s startup business, would Israel make more sense? Or Palestine? (Oh, Hamas takes care of Palestine, or Saudi Arabia does — that is my buried assumption, one I might explore more if I had resources to invest.)
    So we have Arabs support side A, the US supports side B. Right? Is there a kind of war of beneficence behind the war of over turf?

  • Ricki Bobbi

    Israel is an occupying power, it does not have the right to defend itself against those it is occupying, it does have the right to not occupy. And yes, Gaza is occupied/incarcerated. The maximalist claims of Guadi Taub that Hamas wants the genocide of Jews, and thus, implicitly, everything that Israel does is okay, is heinous. (he’s confused anyway, the “democractic jewish zionist state”, Pulease!) Whatever Hamas wants, it will forever be powerless to do so, and if things ever “normalize” such extreme views will attenuate. To not believe so is to condemn the region to eternal,constant turmoil. Further, to be clear, no matter Palestinian rhetoric on destroying Israel, Israel has both in rhetoric and deed, destroyed palestine. Gaza is simply the latest example of base level inhumanity. I’m not sure why this hasn’t gotten more coverage. Further, Dr. Abuelaish is essentially being treated like a talking dog, a major exception to those “blood thirsty” Palestinians. This is a disaster, most of the world sees Israel as a rogue state that behaves monstrously towards Palestinians, but in the US, there is virtually no real discussion of this. Nothing will change unless Dr. Abuelaish is not erroneously seen as the exception, but the rule.

  • http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=12&x_article=1655 Frederic C.

    Main article: Fisking
    Alleged biases and inaccuracies in Fisk’s reporting has led one section of the blogosphere to spawn the term fisking.[26]

    This refers not to what Fisk does, but to what is done to those who, like him, are being challenged …”[27]

    The term originates from criticisms of Fisk[28]

    but has been extended to others.[29]


    27-^ Fisking as a Rhetorical Construct-http://kairosnews.org/node/1820


    29- http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/jun/19/media.theobserver

  • jeffe

    Ellen Dibble you need to read some history.
    Start with the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

    Then research the holocaust, and the how the British and the French completely screwed up after WW2.
    While your at it look up the Muslim Brotherhood and Amin al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

    After that you can look up how after Hitler came to power and the killing of Jews started that the US all but closed it’s doors to the Jews of Europe who wanted to get and had the money.

    The only solution is a two state solution, but I fear this will never happen. One other question, why is that the Palestinians are not welcome in other Arab states? Why is that the they are being used as proxies by these states and Iran to keep the pressure on Israel?

  • jeffe

    Ricki Bobbi, were do you live? In the US? Hypocrite.
    By the way this argument that Israel is an occupying power is ridiculous. Using this argument is juvenile and shows a complete misunderstanding to the realities of the region.

  • Arnold

    Genocide, never again, how quickly we forget.
    The victims become the guilty, how sad.
    My freedom requires your pain, how pitiful.

  • R.M.

    Ellen Dibble here is the BBC in a nutshell :

    BBC gets it right for once

    The BBC got it right here, but probably for the wrong reasons. Very funny !

    See below for the usual BBC / Channel 4 / Sky News guidelines for Israel….

    1. always accept the Palestinian version without question

    2. interview at least 8 Palestinian supporters to every Israeli supporter

    3. assume the UN is impartial, and a shining beacon of justice in a dark world

    4. assume any video / photos provided by Palestinians are always reliable – never question their veracity. It’s probably not worth bothering viewers with the fact that much of the media is doctored or staged – this will only confuse them

    5. gloss over the last 60 years of history (never mention how 6 Arab armies tried to destroy Israel in ‘48, ‘67, and ‘73)

    6. don’t report how Hamas (etc) bully, torture and murder their own people, or misappropriate aid/finance (or if you do, play it down)

    7. NEVER mention that Iran / Hamas / Fatah have vowed to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the world (if you do mention it, assume they don’t really mean it)

    8. Report only the words that Fatah say in English, never what they say in Arabic

    9. if you interview an Israeli (or misguided supporter such as Colonel Kemp, Mark Regev), make sure you interrupt them frequently. If you’re coming off second best, tell them you’re running out of time

    10. if interviewing a Palestinian (or Annie Lennox, Alexei Sayle), make sure you ask them lots of really open questions, allowing lots of time to air their views without interruption – nod frequently to show your support. Don’t interrupt them, as this is disrespectful

    11. above all, the tone of your voice should exhibit disapproval towards Israel, and sympathy towards Palestinians

    12. ensure you use the word “occupation” as much as you can (don’t get involved in meaningless discussions concerning how Israel either paid huge sums for swamps / wilderness in ‘48, or won it when arabs declared war on them)

    13. never report anti-semitic attacks/incidents from the UK or elsewhere (we are unsure as to why these are increasing, but certain it has nothing to do with how we are portraying the situation)

    14. don’t report Pro-Israel activity such as marches – nobody cares, and these people are misguided anyway. If the politicians from all parties turn a blind eye, why shouldn’t we ?

    15. if you get the facts wrong (Israel murders 1000’s in Bethlehem), never issue an apology or retraction

    16. It is probably more news-worthy if you paint Israel as the aggressor – so don’t mention that Hamas launched over 6,000 rockets into Israel after Israel had vacated the Gaza strip

    17. On proportionality, probably not worth mentioning comparisons with civilian casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, or WW2 Germany (this will only confuse people). The fact that Hamas deliberately booby-trapped civilian homes and made people go into them, we are sure, has nothing to do with civilian casualties….

    15. probably not worth mentioning the Bible – Jesus, a Jew, born in Bethlehem, visiting the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (this is only 2000 years of history anyway….)

    Note to Producers – make sure that when interviews are taking place that you loop some video showing ultra-left wing Norwegian doctors running after ambulances performing chest compression on live patients, and female Hamas supporters screaming uncontrollably about how their terrorist husbands were mercilessly martyred by the IDF. Remember, it really doesn’t matter what the interview says because people will remember the images

    Neil Turner , Watford, UK (01.24.09)

  • R.M.

    Ellen Dibble here is a something else which might amaze you …..and notice the flag at 42 seconds …..that will give you an idea. there is more if you want ….


  • Ellen Dibble

    Jeffe, thanks again. Good question you pose, why do the Arabs use the Palestinians as pawns. Could someone tell them to say thanks but no thanks to the “support” that keeps them somehow as is?
    I think questions do more than assertions at this point, or at least may be more needed, at least needed here, to prevent polarization, head butting. (I sleep on a mountain of books, hoping to absorb them in that “free” time, having vast work these decades.)
    If I recall correctly, I heard Thomas Freedman (author of The World is Flat) saying that in his view Israel had too many settlers in the West Bank to be able to achieve a two-state solution. That was a few years back.
    I actually went to Berlin, east and west, summer of 1989, to see, feel, meet some people. I went to a poetry group meeting, for one thing, that I saw listed in the paper, and did get some firsthand perspectives. I alwo focused in Jewish studies in college, within a religion major, in the midst of which the 1967 war broke out. The professor was teaching women, and I believe I was the only non-Jew. Imagine the difficulty of getting information that was not as dead as Latin without it being almost drowned by the weight of emotional spin. The professor tried to guide me to Jewish mysticism. It was totally new to me. There is a Yiddish book repository/museum near where I live; I can imagine its pith.
    I also visited Prague in the ’80s and saw the New Old Synagogue and the cemetery, and tried to absorb the history, Kafka’s miniature hut in the shadow of the Vichyrod, high castle, for instance.
    Books offer a lot but not all. If people to people, a path to peace became clear, the leaders might see their way thereto.

  • Ellen Dibble

    R.M., I laugh and cry at the same time with your new post. Dense with information and dense with spin. Oh, my head; oh, my heart.

  • Potter

    Dr. Al- Aish is an amazing man because he can turn pain and suffering around- reject the hate that would enter his heart. We need many more like him on both sides of this insane conflict in which wounds are constantly being re-opened and further torn.

    The most that he can do for the cause of peace is to use this personal tragedy which the listening world became aware of during israel’s “Operation Cast lead”.
    So it is good that he is appearing on programs like this one- especially in this country- to give more of a face to the Palestinian side. Palestinians are not all about Hamas or terrorism.

    “Sept 1″ above poses some very good questions in his post. That does not make me anti-Israel. I am not.

    I don’t believe the US needs to appease the Israeli side of this for any strategic reasons either. The better strategy is to help bring this conflict to an end. To facilitate that, the US has to stop supporting what Israel does in the name of it’s security which is not bringing security, not to itself or others.

    Israel’s ongoing strategy appears to be putting off the day of making and dealing the the consequences of the inevitable hard compromises because of strong divisions within the country. The longer this goes on the more costly it will be.

    Dr. Al -Aish’s story is an especially powerful, one voice in extreme pain, who does not deserve that pain. I wish for it’s ability to break through a terrible numbness that has grown in Israel to the suffering inflicted upon the other side of the walls and checkpoints by the use of overwhelming force to harm many who are not terrorists- who would rather live a normal life, and not under occupation.

    The use of such force gives Israeli’s some sense of security. But the immorality of it eats away at the core.

    Reading some of the comments above does not give much hope.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    To Ellen Debbie (re: SolutionToMiddleEast)

    If you want to solve the problem you have to go to the basics.
    a) There is one house, and two persons who want the house
    b) The original owner is dark skinned arabic speaking poor person, and the wanta be new owner is fairly rich white and european.

    How can you solve this conflict: You offer money (load of it) to the original owner. How much is fair: will be enough for the original owner to accept the deal with a smile and will be high enough countries to line up and accept new residents to their communities with a smile.

    The bottom line is Israel is issuing billions of dollars of bonds, Europeans are either contributing to the pot and/or guaranteeing. Americans (government) is staying out of it. Palestinian are leaving Palestine with lots of money in their pockets ($100K-$200K per person) for their pain and suffering and loss of their homes. Sweeden and Japan competing for accepting more cool Palestinians.

    This marks end of war on terror, suicide bombings, jihad, searches at airports, no ID required for flights, back to Dept. of Defense from having Dept. of Offense, 80% less $$$ on Military, Ahmidinijad giving hugs and kisses to Nathanyahu on Valentine’s day. AIPAC and AEI become obsolete and close their offices – nobody threatens our elected officials any more.

    If this is not fair and the only solution, my name is G.Bush and K.Rove at the same time.

  • somerset

    I am amazed, and dismayed, at how much all of this column and posts are just continuations of fighting and disputing and ego – the same things that are reflected in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute (and all others), and that caused the violence and tragedy to Dr. Abuelaish’s family. People just don’t get it. None of this matters…winning your point. Love and forgiveness and compassion and humility, and being able to enjoy what really little time you have here in moment-to-moment peace and love, and empathazing with others’ fundamental needs to do the same are all that really matters, and all we have. The message is really very simple. But obviously everyone just wants to go on proving their point and arguing. Israel and Palestine are tragic, but tiresome: it is like watching two schoolchildren squabbling in the sandbox. They just can’t give up the squabbling and immaturity.

  • Lilya Lopekha


    Please… not doing something about it, will take us to bankruptcy. Don’t forget the amount of suffering of people compacted in one area will get worse. Range and technology of weapons are increasing.

    Unfortunately, we are going to be busy more about this issue in the halls of Washington than curing cancer and your Social Security turning into invisible vapor one day.

    Let’s go to the solution: Can you spend just 3 min on the proposed SolutionToMiddleEast and comment why it is a dumb idea?

  • jeffe

    Lilya your explanations are so wrong, poor Palestinians? Rich Europeans (subtext Jews)? Are you kidding me? For one thing most of the Jews who came from Europe after WW2 were extremely poor, they were refuges. Also I find your patronizing attitude towards the Palestinians way to simplified and demeaning. The Palestinian people better educated and more enterprising then most in the Middle East.

    There are plenty of very wealth Palestinians in the world and I wont even go into all the money Arafat and PLO has.

    You make some interesting points and then you shroud them in these generalizations, poor Palestinians, rich Jews.

  • Lilya Lopekha


    We were invited to a few pool parties in Tel-Aviv last summer, relatives of my BF (sort of former now).

    It was like Welcome to Hollywood = ברוכים הבאים להוליווד
    Please get serious!

    But, please comment on the Solution. If you support that little country over there, whouldn’t you donate money to the Pot of Buying the Land. What is a few hundered billion dollars for God who chose “the people”?
    Pay up, and Done!

    Can you see any other solution than 4.5 million people in a cage, becoming 8.5 million people in a cage 20 years from now? Please tell me why it is a dumb idea other than Supporters of That Little Country will not pay a penny for the property that they took over, just because they had the guns.

    Please let’s not get into two-state or eight-state solution stuff.

  • http://dennis420b@yahoo.com dennis beard

    again the united states has backed a country that robed land from the rightful owners, based on that countrys stance on being anti communist. if we justify the actions of israel based on ” it was hebrew land in the bible” then we need to all get in our boats and give this land to what remains of native americans. not to mention our backing israel has been one of the many reasons that other countrys in the region have such hostility towards the u.s. . we backed the wrong pony. that land has belonged to the palistinian people for a long time. and israel hasnt exactly been extending the olive branch of peace. they are a paranoid nation w/ a attack first policy.(when other countrys do that we call them warmongers). we need to drop the double standard and hold all nations (or people) in the same regard, and to the same standard. we speak of equality to no end in this country, but still seem to not be able to apply this to our policys abroad.

  • Mike

    as Dennis beard correctly states.

    though i guess u will be attacked about what u said,

    but facts are facts no mater what u try and spin them.
    once we realize these errors and ills committed it is easier to correct and move forward together. but if a error or ill is never corrected it will remain and effect the current along with the future of peace.

  • Jerry

    If the guest is trying to figure out a root cause of conflict in Israel/Palestine, perhaps demographics should be considered.

    The human population of this region has increased about 20-fold over the past century, while the amount of land has stayed the same and the amount of water has decreased (part of the Dead Sea is gone, the river Jordan is no longer wide, and the Sea of Galilea has been approaching the black line).

    I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that conflicts, warfare, bloodshed, genocides and extinctions often occur between excessively growing populations competing over limited resources.

  • elena

    I almost couldn’t drive for tears, listening to Dr Al-Aish. I don’t have the words to say how I admire him. Tom Ashbrook – thank you for having the courage to present this program (because of the vitriolic comments you probably expected, apart from the emotional toll it must have taken on you especially). As a Jew I am horrified at the failure of the world Jewish community to condemn Israel’s behavior – thinking people have the responsibility first to question their own group and only then to criticize others – Jews are no different from anyone else in this responsibility.

  • jeffe

    Lilya that’s the most absurd thing I have ever heard, telling the Israelis that we will buy them out?
    Also you seem to dump on rich people or people who are better off then others for some reason. Yet your well off enough to go on vacations. I’m not. I have not been on one in 9 years. Get real please.

    OK there seems to be a misconception due to what people want to believe and what is a historical bias against Jews in general. The two seem to be getting mixed up. We could make these arguments about who’s land it is forever. While we are at it maybe we can ask the Jordanians to move as well as most of Jordan was also Palestinian as well. People also forget that the Palestinians were forced out Jordan by King Hussein.


    The other thing that’s interesting is no one ever seems to mention the hundreds of thousands of Sephardi Jews who have been killed and forced off their lands by almost ever Arab country in the region. Lilya were is your outrage for these crimes. It’s convenient to blame the Jews for all the worlds problems which is always the subtext in comments on forums like this.

    Israel is most likely going to self destruct, that’s my take and the take of some of my moderate Israeli friends. Most of the ones who can afford to are leaving the country due to this mess. So will get your wish and then you can have your parade.

    The thing is you also don’t mention the violent and oppressive nature of Hamas. Were is your outrage when they commit atrocities against their own people?

    The world is full of strife and countries invading others, of people being displaced. That’s the history of the world. Poland has changed hands in the last two centuries many many times. Where is your outrage Lilya?

    Stalin murdered over 50 million of his own people and displaced millions of others, where is your outrage Lilya?

    Look at our own American history it’s much worse then Israels. Where is your outrage Lilya?

    The answer is it’s easy to hate the Jew, it’s convenient, history is on your side.

  • jeffe

    Lilya the more I read your last comment the more absurd it gets with every reading. Where do you get this stuff from?

    The world is tough and hard place, grow up.

  • Mike

    hi Jeffe,

    U seem like a nice person but i must take note to your perception of history,as for the u.s. they admitted there wrongs and continue(or some) to work to better the country. As in the U.S. has shown a favoritism to israel like no other.

    I belive that is what gets people. Yes the u.s. did to the Indians what israel is doing to pally’s, but u as well as i know that in today time the u.s. could never do that today, yet israel still does.Saying hamas is bad and acting no better than hamas does not justify there actions.

    Are u justifying israel often illegal action against group because someone previously did a wrong to them? sounds like a eye for a eye to me , guess it does not matter whoses eye it is.

    There is no argument about israel occupation, if israel controls the land, sea, and exit of another group its occupying along with they ability to survive, if israel is in the west bank with check-points its occupying the west bank. Also im sure u know there a international law saying the same.
    Facts are Facts under international law to move a occupying civilians unto occupy land is against the international laws. Facts are Facts

    How do u justify the right to return if Jewish but not if u are arab. sound like its ok to go to a country u never been to and live as long as your not Arab seems odd.

    As if iran decided to cage up its Jewish minority do u not think the world would step in. The U.N. created laws to stop what happen in WW2 yet, on a smaller scale we see israel employ many of the same tactics.

    Also electing a barrier and collective punishment is against international laws as well. or should we disregard if its critical against israel.

    As for muslim, and other countries, how many sanctions do say iran, iraq, get for breaking U.N. resolutions, or Bosnia,or Zimbabwe for taking land from the small white minority or invaded on top?. know how many sanctions did israel get for breaking U.N. resolutions?
    I didn’t see the u.s. or Europe sticking up for these country’s

    the same information u are getting about Human Rights Violations, are use to argue about criticize toward Israel but when stated Israel are caught doing the same dismiss are lies.

    If israel admitted what it is doing is wrong and wished to move forward i doubt it receive more criticism and im pretty sure the moderates on the hamas, pally, side u surface, but israel does not.

    just like one cannot morally denies the holocaust,(which, blacks, gays, gyses died as well) one cannot denies what is currently happening in Israel.

    I top i constantly hear Israel State its the only democracy in the middle east and that its above those arab and Persians countries and treats all it’s people like one yet i see, hear and view otherwise and a disregard of such.

    U can listen to the FM. speech Thursday and see he does not want a 2 state solution and even states it.

    The spin from pro Israel lobbyist is just as bad as watching foxes news. both distort the truth and only give a small piece of the whole picture. along with trying to tie hamas as the everyday pally instead of Dr. Ezzeldeen just so i believe that people living in israel are not as extreme as there leaders and can represent the other side and williness that Dr. Ezzeldeen has shown for peace.

  • jeffe

    First I’m not supporting Israel’s actions in Gaza or the West Bank. Second you want to talk of the right to return but fro some reason you don’t’ mention Jordan, Why is that?

    If you get your way where do the Jews in Israel go?

    Mike I wont argue with you posts point to the fact that you have made up your mind.

    My point is every time this subject is brought up there are people like you how go on and on about how Israel has no right to exists, and yet when a program comes on about Rwanda people never say much.

  • R.M.

    here is your white rich jewish israeli I wonder what country in europe they came from? poland maybe?….. let me educate you lyla …maybe you hang around with the elite and try to play revolutionary …..start hanging around sephardims and get some soul …….


  • R.M.

    I wonder where he learned Arabic? mmmm? maybe his family were refugees from Arab countries? how do you like him lyla? not bad for a Polish jew?


  • R.M.

    how about her? I wonder where she learned her Arabic? not bad for being Moroccan and Egyptian ?.Does she seem eastern European ? … lyla you see everything through the eyes of a racist. Everything dark:good …everything white : bad ….you are so immature….and don’t try to justify yourself you are just digging a bigger hole .I don’t know how old you are ….but grow up ….PS…who cares about your rich elitist and white Israeli boyfriend …..


  • Arnold

    Gaza is a concentration camp.
    When will these people be liberated?
    How can we stand by and do nothing?

  • R.M.

    Please Arnold stop your histerical lie tell the palestinians to stop their terror! Everyday someone is attacked in Israel and there is only news here in the US when a palestinian gets hurt . One day its a tractor another day its a knifing another day its a pipe bomb ….Would you tolerate this here in the USA? lets get rid of the “checkpoints” here in the airports…and you take an airplane without security …I dare you …..

  • R.M.

    everyday there is an act of terror by arabs in Israel :this one was today ……I bet the BBC said nothing about it …….

    Arab stabs tourist in Jerusalem’s Old City

    Knife-wielding Arab attacks group of four tourists on Via Dolorosa; one tourist sustains light injuries to the head; assailant apprehended

    Efrat Weiss Published: 04.17.09, 18:46

    An Arab stabbed a tourist Friday afternoon near the Lion’s Gate in Jerusalem’s Old City. The tourist sustained light injuries to the head.

    The circumstances of the incident remain unclear, but investigators are not ruling out the possibility that it was an act of terror.

    The knife-wielding Arab attacked a group of four tourists on the Via Dolorosa at approximately 5 pm. The assailant fled the scene but was apprehended a short while later at a nearby restaurant by Border Guard officers.

    In August 2006 a 24-year-old Italian peace activist was stabbed to death by an Arab youngster near Herod’s Gate in the Old City.

    On Saturday thousands of Christian pilgrims from all around the world are expected to gather in Jerusalem to participate in the annual “Holy Fire” ceremony.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Jeffe, Jeffe, Jeffe

    The subject is Israel. And Israel’s Occupation of Other People’s home….but yet you continue to talk about Rwanda, Native Americans, Stalins and Star Wars.

    I keep saying, I don’t hate J…’s and you keep labeling me. J.. hater, racist, etc. FYI, I am such a nice girl; did peace core in Africa and Latin America. Helping Dana Farber institute and working with Homeless Shelters in Boston.

    I guess, your religious ties to that little bad country prevents you from being an unbiased person commenting on this board.

    You are one of those people, faking to be moderate but will never be on the right side. You are wasting other people’s time.

    Answer this simple question: I want your house. We have three choices.
    1) I grab my baseball bat and kick you out of your house.
    2) I change my mind, because it is immoral and illegal since you did not do anything bad to me
    3) I offer you really good money (value of the house + premium for your inconvenience), so that you will let me have your house.

    Which one is just, legal and should be happening?
    Hint: 2) is out…., it is just too late.

    If you cannot answer this….. have a nice day.

  • jeffe

    Lilya you comments are so absurd. What does me being a progressive in American politics have to do with my beliefs in regards to Israel? Oh I see to join your club I have to toe the party line and hate Israel. Here’s a little suggestion, learn to except the idea of nuance.

    You don’t seem to know a thing about the history of the Middle East, Other peoples country? There has never been a country called Palistine. It was a territory inhibited by tribes for centuries until the Ottomans conquered it. Then came the British and the French. Do your research and you’s understand that this not so black and white.

    Iraq was not a country until after WW1. Look up the Ottoman Empire. You don’t know what your talking about. Your so uneducated on this region. You call me a fake moderate because I don’t agree with your ideas. Your not a lefty or progressive. You don’t know it but your a more of a die hard totalitarian. You want me to agree with your bull crap and if I don’t you call me names. Get a life.

    I don’t have ties to Israel. I’m not a religious person. Your solution is wacko, period. That’s what I’m saying.
    Huge parts of Jordan were also Palestinian and they were forced out that country as well. As I said before and you keep avoiding this issue. Are you going too kick the Jordanians out as well? Your selective in your ideas because it’s trendy to use Israel as the whipping post for the region.

    Your comments on this forum have a history of being over the top and angry you make these insane statements and when people call you out you come on like we are idiots and you know better then us. Here’s a news flash for you, the world does not revolve around your sanctimonious behind.

    Personally I don’t see Israel as country in 20 to 30 years. I think they will self destruct. I have never supported the Gaza and West Bank Territories.w

    But your ideas are juvenile and you sound like a child.

    Where was your outrage when the Sunni’s massacre Kurds?
    Do you know the difference between Sunni and Shia Islam?

  • jeffe

    Lilya where is your outrage when a suicide bomber blows up a bus full Israeli school children?

    I already know you’ll have some smart condescending answer.
    Your a fake, I think your a fake.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Whenever there is an Occupation by a foreign power, there are always reactions that my look crazy from your comfortable lazy-boy.

    People first protest and then they get killed.
    Then throw rocks to tanks, their arms are broken.
    They form resistence groups, they get assasinated.
    They turn to God, nothing happens.
    Foreign media goes deaf and blind.
    They lose hope and get humiliated every day.
    Then turn themselves into suicide bombers.

    (Of course, you know all this sequence, but you chose Convenient Ignorence.

    Without the Occupation of Homeland, if you see one single Suicide Bombing, I will give you my skirt.

    You are a waste of time!!!

  • R.M.

    jeffe , I second that about lyla but please don’t talk about self destruction because millions of Jews would savagely be massacred by the surrounding 22 Arab countries . No its not going to happen because we won’t let it happen, Just because fools like lyla follow the politically correct line and are manipulated by “taquiya” . We won’t let another holocaust happen.

  • R.M.

    If there is denial of the well documented holocaust against 6 million jews ……

    Victims Killed Source
    Jews 5.9 million [30]
    Soviet POWs 2–3 million [31]
    Ethnic Poles 1.8–2 million [32][33]
    Romani 220,000–1,500,000 [34][35]
    Disabled 200,000–250,000 [36]
    Freemasons 80,000–200,000 [37]
    Homosexuals 5,000–15,000 [38]
    Witnesses 2,500–5,000 [39]

    there can be denial of anything ……………don’t let yourself be deceived. Don’t let history be rewritten by hate .Israel’s history is not what the palestinians repeat over and over again .Learn the real history .

  • R.M.

    its really funny to see these so called nice “middle class” English women protest on something they know nothing about: in favour of Nasrallah. A man who would all stone them to death ……how sad to see such stupidity .This is lyla 40 years older …….


  • R.M.

    lyla , I guess after 30 years or more of BBC lies ….you can believe anything.

  • harry

    I missed the program and want to listen here online. Where is it? Why does it not play with error message.

    I can’t believe this.

  • jeffe

    R.M this is not coming from me but from Israelis I know who live here. They want to get out. The country has been taken over by the extremist and this will never end.

    Lilya get real, my comfortable lazy-boy?
    I don’t own one. And I assume your posting from some mud hut in the desert… or your nice comfortable semidetached condo in the burbs.

    Lilya your sentiments and antisemitism comes out when your angry. Like I said; your a phony.

    The interesting thing is that Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish’s message is one of peace and understanding. Something I would support 100%. Lilya your comments are more in line with Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood than with his. Why is that? Some old boy friend issues?

  • jeffe

    Also Lilya in Iran who support Hamas they hang gay people.
    They just recently hung two boys. Do you know how they hang them? The use cranes, they tie ropes or chains around their necks and lift, slowly. Do your research before you make such outlandish statements on cultures you have no understanding of and a region that you clearly have no incite into.

    While we are on the subject of taking back land; the first Gulf war, the reason Iraq under Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait was that they claim that it belongs to them. Kuwait became and independent country on June 19, 1961. State of Kuwait goes back to the year 1613 and was made up of tribes from the area.

  • R.M.

    jeffe ,lyla doesn’t understand if you don’t put an image


  • R.M.
  • Lilya Lopekha

    Jeffe and R.M.:

    Are you guys not capeble of answering a multiple choice question? The subject is “Occupation” “in” “Palestine”. Not Napeleon, not how many dinasors died in the ice ace.
    Political situation in the Middle East, namely (mostly) White European Israelis, Occupying The Land and Homes of Dark Skinned Arabic Speaking (mostly) muslim Palestinians. Nothing else.

    Answer this simple question: I want your house. We have three choices.
    1) I grab my baseball bat and kick you out of your house.
    2) I change my mind, because it is immoral and illegal to take your house, since you did not do anything bad to me
    3) I offer you really good money (value of the house + premium for your inconvenience), so that you will let me have your house.

    Which one is just, legal and should be happening?
    Hint: 2) is out…., it is just too late.
    So what is the answer: 1) or 3)?

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Why are you guys talking about Soviet POWs or World War II or Iran?

    Just let’s have the Occupier pay for the land, and let’s call it a day.

    Then the next question is How Much….

    Figure out the amount, issue the bonds, write the checks. Done! Love & Peace Forever. It is that simple.

  • Mike

    peaceful protest are meet with violence, along with a visiting American activist as well.


    as for Jordan if i could probaby take a educated guess than i would guess that pally inside of Jordan are not facing land grabs and attacks from Jordanian or persecution for being pally.

    R.M. u missed blacks that where killed in the holocaust and fighting esp the ones that fought for franch.since they often were not taken as prisoner but shot dead instead but im guessing its a honest mistake.

    jeffe i said nothing of the israel right to exist, but that recognizing the ills it committed and are commiting will bring peace to itself and the people around it. By not recognizing the suffering of gazan and the west banks along with the legitimate issues empowers the extremist, and people in the muslim world since moderates see no justice in israel actions.

    yes ill’s were committed against jewis people, and the world recognized this and hench the state of israel was formed(while denieing the people that lived there there rights at the same time), laws against the holocaust, as the same happened after slavery was recognized first by England as wrong,laws where past for it as well. But if people are talking about keeping a quata of so many jews to no jews israel can have, than that just plan wrong in any regard. The kind of crap i hear from foxs news

    But one can not stand by and watch what was done to them, and have them do it to another group, because the were wronged.
    this is what i hear for a agruement from some.

    also fatah was willing to give up more land than the 1967 boarders for peace.

    I’m pretty sure if israel wanted peace and admitted like most countries or countries leader say hey we missed up and wish to move forward, the hated from the arab world would simmer.

    We can see this with the IRA and England, and south africa, Jamaica .

    I find it hard to believe that one extremist side of society would want another extremist side of another society to agree with them to have peace instead of not going for the people in between or more moderates.

    A current example of not reconizing mistakes and moving forward is our lovly prior pres Bush my way or the highway attitude and we saw what that bought use

    Compared to obama who admitted the u.s. made mistakes yet also pointed out mistakes of our allies and enemies alike

    Also like in the camps the U.S. made to house germans, jap, during WW2, whice turn more normal germans nazi supporters being there.

    along with gitmo, and abu-grav ( i know i probably spelled it wrong) that hated and out cry was used to recruit more extremist.

    But i do think the right of center of israel will be more productive in achieving peace than the left, who would seem more likly to go to war to prove a point. but sadly the F.M. is to extreme to do so and will intentionally or not inflame the extremist on the pally sides to stop peace.Along with a even-hand from the U.S. and u.s. official without being personally attacked for doing so.

    If you have not notice R.M. does not like muslim, or arabs, and trys to demonizes all as terrorist as much as he can along with human rights workers, plus he hates the bbc, maybe they didnt publish one of his comments, they are awful slow about that.

    Im not against the people of israel but the policies i believe the extremist minority in isarel puts forth, and i hope israel can get a leader u can speak out against some of these policies and stand up to the elites there(kind of what obama is doing here some what) and actually make a true effort to reach out for peace,the same can be said about what bush compare to the majority of american people, the same is about iran’s government compare to the majority of people there(in which u.s. support of a dictator lead from democracy to dictator than revolution to what we have today) as well,

    I believe the majority of people in these country dont think the way that the politicians or leaders do or did. I cant stand someone trying to white-wash someone else pain, as meaningless and not see or feel why someone may being feeling that way, hench why i comment.

    R.M. i could be wrong but i never heard u say a single good thing about a arab, muslim, ever

    The first step is recognizing that u wronged someone else, and apologizing goes a long way to solving and moving ahead together, at least that what i was taught as a kid along with many others people i know also those pesky trainings at work (conflict resolution).

  • R.M.

    please Mike unlike you ,I don’t have to prove that I am not a racist .just because you and lyla see the colour (Typical Anglo who smiles at everyone of colour /to prove he is not racist/its always so obvious ).I judge individually and see character , personality .

  • Lilya Lopekha


    Please answer the multiple choice question.

    Answer this simple question: I want your house. We have three choices.
    1) I grab my baseball bat and kick you out of your house.
    2) Lawfully, I make an offer (big $$$) that you cannot refuse, so that you will let me have your house with peace.

  • R.M.

    lyla , i would answer your childish questions if they made sense , but they only see and question a tiny part of a much bigger picture….sorry …when you see the bigger picture let me know ….ok?

  • Mike

    Hi Lyla,

    Your trying to be logical which a illogical person.

    so R.M. what do u think of the good doctor and his message? we and any other can tell u hate arabs, and i highly doubt u can even judge character. and your answer assumes im white,so i see you have something against arabs, and whites huh. try thinking for once

    wait u dont.

    jeffe, i agree to disagree with u on somethings, and respect your tone, but for r.m. if u have not notice does not want debate and is part of that small extremist group thats against peace and only point on this thread and other is to demonize all but Israel.

    R.M. i laugh at how sad u are. your rambling would actually mean something if it was factual or not so unbelievable faulty and one-sided.

    maybe a independent source could help your cause. which i highly doubt it.

    the information u present is about as factual as what foxes news presents. and we all know foxes is trash

  • Lilya Lopekha


    Please show a bit of dignity and answer this simple simplified multiple-choice question:

    I want your house badly for historic and religious reasons. We have three choices.
    1) I grab my baseball bat and kick you out of your house.
    2) Lawfully, I make an offer (big $$$) that you cannot refuse, so that you will let me have your house with peace.
    3) I take over your house, and your family lives in the stinky Outhouse (get it? Two-state solution)

    Answer the above question; and then let’s talk about how much money you want…
    then Champagnia time with Peace and Love, cross faith harmony, hugs and kisses and friendship forever – but Justice and Rule of Law First.

    The proposed solution cannot be that complicated;
    even an Ecoli Virus is smart enough to understand this.

    C’mon R.M and Jeffe and others…use jumpstart your brains.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    R.M. and Jeffe

    Forgot to tell you….the living in the Outhouse is the best offer I can give you as Land for Peace; if you really want to get out of the Compost Bin that you are in now.

    If I ever hear you complain about the smell in the compost bin and/or the flies in the Outhouse, then you are a terrorist.

  • R.M.

    The proof is in the pudding , Sorry you don’t like it , but you have pretty much exposed your flaws (believe me its pretty easy)….again grow up ….

  • R.M.

    how about doing something more productive and join this movement ?:
    The New York Times finally notices: Darfur is horrible, but the situation for Africans in Southern Sudan might soon be much worse.
    Tuesday, 11 March 2008 13:38 He writes:

    Those who focused on Sudan’s atrocities in Darfur, myself included, may have inadvertently removed the spotlight from South Sudan. Without easing the outrage over Darfur — where the bloodshed has been particularly appalling lately — we must broaden the focus to include the threat to the south.


    For over a decade, the American Anti-Slavery Group fought to bring to light the religiously inspired genocidal attack on Black Africans, most of whom are Christian or tribalists, by the Islamic fundamentalist regime in Khartoum. According to the US State Department, over 2 million have been killed, and tens of thousands enslaved, since 1989, when a “holy war” was declared on the South. We, along with other organizations, pressed two American Administrations to work for a peace treaty. This finally was achieved in 2005 when President Bush sent Senator Danforth to Sudan to press for an end to hostilities. The result was a peace treaty and slave raids and slaughter were halted.

    But as Nicholas Kristof now writes, that peace is being threatened and if war breaks the people of Southern Sudan, the world may see a crisis that dwarfs the horrors in Darfur.

    Charles Jacobs

  • http://dennis420b@yahoo.com dennis beard

    violence only spawns more violence. the actions taken by both sides are not going to solve anything. and since when does not agreeing with israels policys make you an antisemite? thats the same as when people dont support the war on iraq, people call them un-american. its nonsense. i dont support terrorism, or any acts of violence over religion, money or policy. but i do understand that the non jewish inhabitants of israel feel wronged, and not in control of their own future, and that is what i beleave is the cause for such acts of “terrorism”. how can a civilian militia take on a modern up to date fighting force in an open battle? it cant , thats suicide. so their only option is to fight a clandestine war. and as some will argue that killing someone w/ a knife in the middle of town is just plain murder. i could argue that so is an attack helicoptor attacking a populated area. the difference?… a uniform.

  • R.M.

    you are a phony , you say you don’t believe in violence but…

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Yes, R.M. you are right.

    Anybody who criticises the little country is either a terrorist or supports violence and should be silenced.

    Good Job R.M. – very intellectual

  • R.M.

    Economic and Social







    29 July 2002



    Sub-Commission on the Promotion

    and Protection of Human Rights

    Fifty-fourth session

    Item 4 and 5 of the provisional agenda



    Written statement* submitted by the World Union for Progressive Judaism, a non-governmental organization on the Roster

    The Secretary-General has received the following written statement which is circulated in accordance with Economic and Social Council resolution 1996/31.

    [10 July 2002]


    *This written statement is issued, unedited, in the language(s) received from the submitting non-governmental organization(s).


    Jewish refugees from Arab countries – the forgotten millions

    1. In the chronic Middle East tragedy, where a key stumbling block has always been the question of the return of, or compensation for, Arab refugees from Palestine, the time has come for the international community to remember the other victim – the forgotten millions of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

    2 In 1945, there were 140,000 Jews in Iraq; 60,000 in Yemen and Aden; 35,000 in Syria; 5,000 in Lebanon; 90,000 in Egypt; 40,000 in Libya; 150,000 in Algeria; 120,000 in Tunisia; 300,000 in Morocco, including Tangiers (a total of 940,000, plus a further 200,000 living in Iran and Turkey). Of these ancient Jewish communities, less than 40,000 remain today out of the total population of about 1.2 million. In the Arab world (i.e. not counting Turkey and Iran), their number is under 2,000, down from roughly one million 50 years ago. In the 20th century, thousands of Jewish men, women and children, the young and the old, were brutally massacred in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Aden, and the Maghreb (often under British or French colonial rule), and also in Palestine during the British Mandate.

    3. As to how these countries became Judenrein (“cleansed” of Jews) since the 1940s, a key article, “Jews in Grave Danger in all Moslem Lands,” published in the New York Times of 16 May 1948, speaks volumes (a recent collective book provides details: see Malka Shulewitz (ed.), The Forgotten Millions. The Modern Jewish Exodus from Arab Lands (1999).

    4. In her latest study, Islam and Dhimmitude. Where Civilizations Collide (2002) (www.dhimmi.org), Bat Ye’or refers to the Times article and quotes an appeal from the President of the World Jewish Congress, Dr. Stephen Wise, to the U.S. Secretary of State, George Marshall, on 18 January 1948:

    “Between 800’000 and a million Jews in the Middle East and North Africa, exclusive of Palestine, are in ‘the greatest danger of destruction’ at the hands of Moslems being incited to holy war over the Partition of Palestine (…) Acts of violence already perpetrated, together with those contemplated, being clearly aimed at the total destruction of the Jews, constitute genocide which, under the resolutions of the General Assembly, is a crime against humanity.”(pp.175-76)

    5. A recent example of such acts of violence is the jihadist Al-Qaeda bombing of the ancient al-Ghariba synagogue of Djerba in Tunisia on 11 April 2002. That was not a simple accident, as first claimed by the Tunisian authorities; it was finally acknowledged as a criminal act after Germany insisted on a full enquiry (10 of the 17 dead were elderly German tourists, and many others were among the badly wounded). An Al-Qaeda spokesman recently claimed responsibility. Tunisian Jewry is now reduced to about 1,000 persons, a remnant of a biblical community with its roots in the ancient Phoenician past. Like 99% and more of their co-religionists before them, most will leave.

    6. Pogroms and persecutions, and grave fears for their future, regularly preceeded the mass expulsions and exoduses of the Jews whose ancestors had inhabited these regions from time immemorial, well before successive waves of Arab conquest and occupation beginning in the seventh century.

    7. More than 650,000 of the Jewish refugees were integrated into Israel’s small area of 20,000 km2 beginning in the 1950s, even while the country was threatened with annihilation by neighbouring Arab League States which, for over 40 years, refused the UN 1947 Palestine Partition Plan. A further approximately 300,000 Jews found refuge, and a new homeland, in Europe and the Americas.

    8. Roughly half of Israel’s 5 million Jews – its total population is about 6.2 million, of whom roughly 20% are Arab, Druze, and Bedouin Israelis – is now composed of these refugees and their descendants, who received no humanitarian aid from the United Nations, and who did not ask for it. It was the world Jewish communities, just emerging from the Shoah, who worked together with Israel to achieve this integration.

    9. Yet it was the defiance of international legality by the Arab League in 1947-48, for decade after decade, in a failed attempt at politicide against the State of Israel, that led to the Arab Palestinian catastrophe. A parallel commitment on behalf of the less numerous Arab refugees of Palestine (in 1948 they numbered 550,000, although the figure of 750,000 is often quoted) to their integration in any of the 21 Arab States (covering 10% of the world’s surface: 15 million km2 ) was considered too great a sacrifice, in spite of their immense oil resources.

    10. In Jordan, whose surface covered 77% of Palestine as recognized by the League of Nations in 1922, only partial integration was carried out for many decades. Turning a blind eye to article 15 of the Mandate, Britain had decided in 1922 that no Jews would be authorized either to reside or buy land in Transjordan. This decision was ratified by the Kingdom of Jordan in its law No. 6, sect. 3, of 3 April 1954, reactivated in law No. 7 of 1 April 1963, sect. 2, which states that any person could become a citizen of Jordan if he was not Jewish. When Jordan made peace with Israel in 1994, this Judenrein law remained.

    11. George Orwell’s remark about everyone being equal – except that “some are more equal than others” – could be applied also to refugees. Indeed, some refugees are considered more equal than others. But the forgotten millions – those Jewish refugees from Arab lands – were not helped by the UN, nor were they kept for over half a century in refugee camps breeding hopelessness and frustration, and a culture of hate and death. Orwell’s remark might also be applied to scores of millions of refugee, on all continents, who were displaced during the many tragic conflicts throughout the 20th century.

    12. The transfer of populations on a large scale, a consequence of war or for political reasons, has been a characteristic of human history, particularly in the Islamic Orient. Deportations, expropriations and expulsions of dhimmis – Jews, Christians, and other indigenous peoples – were recurrent throughout the long history of “dhimmitude,” including in Palestine. One should question the real motivation of a selective memory, so historically flawed, which systematically spotlights the Arab refugees from Palestine, but not those forgotten millions – the Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

    13. Security Council resolution 242 of 22 November 1967 (adamantly refused by the Khartoum Arab Summit Conference, with the formula: “no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel, no concessions on the questions of Palestinian national rights.”) refers to a just solution to the refugee problem; this implicitly included Jewish refugees from Arab countries, as well as Arab refugees from Palestine.

    14. The dire hardships endured by the great majority of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries have never been considered by the United Nations, nor has the loss of their inestimable property and heritage dating back three thousand years. The time has come for this great injustice to be taken into consideration in the context of a just and equitable global solution to the ongoing Middle East tragedy.

    15. The World Union for Progressive Judaism appeals to the Sub-Commission, and other appropriate UN bodies, to consider urgently the rights of these ancient Jewish minorities: (a) in relation to Mr. Asbjorne Eide’s forthcoming final report at its fifty-fifth session (2003); and (b) in relation to the working paper by Mr. Paulo Sérgio Pinheiro on the return of refugees’ or displaced persons’ property.

  • jeffe

    Lilya the problem with you is you twist things in ways to support you world view. To say Iran is not connected the Palestinian Israeli problem is absurd. All of the issues in the Middle East are connected to this conflict on one level or another. There are parallels with other events in history that are relevant.

    RM look up Black September 1970. The Jordain military used extreme force to evict the Palestinians from Jordon, which is also the homeland of the Palestinians. (Lilya take note, it’s relevant, r.e.l.e.v.a.n.t.)

    Then you dismiss the history of the region. It is amazing to me how utterly juvenile and puerile you are for an adult who seems to be inelegant.

    Your ideas are absurd, why you can’t see this is a sign of the adolescent mind, in other words you not mature enough to discuss this in rational way. Do you really think that some mythical entity with ll this money should buy out the Israelis? This is insane. Where should they go? Should the Russian Jews go back to Russia? The Iraqi Jews to Iraq?

    Israel is not going anywhere so one would think that you should learn to deal with this. The problem needs to be resolved somehow and it is only getting worse because both sides are now being run by the extremist elements of their political zeitgeist.

    This will only lead to more bloodshed.

    I see you as this extremist left wing(nut) who when is confronted and challenged hurls insults and diatribes.

    You did not listen to one word Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish said, not one. I bet if he was posting here you would be calling him names by now as well. GROW UP.

  • jeffe

    Thank you RM for that bit of history, which is relevant and as anyone can see that this area has a complex and troubled history, not unlike our own. Too ignore this in context of the issues of today is dangerous and foolish.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    R.M. and Jeffe

    You guys are total waste of time. Nothing but cancer living inside American society. Nothing else to do except promote racist Israeli crap at the expense of our constitution. You have no loyalty to America.

    This wonderful country was fooled into Occupying other countries on the other side of the world because of Geopolitical Security of the damn country called Israel. This country Killed hundereds of thousands of innocent people, just because of that damn little country of Israel. Enough is enough. This America. Enough of Israel crap. Get Lost.

    People like you are ruining our foreign policy, United Nations and the whole world.

    Unitied Nations cannot even meet to fight against Racism because of people like you and your petty influence peddling with your bribes and threats. Anti-Semitism my butt. If you cannot handle the truth, call it anti-semitism.

  • R.M.

    finally the real lyla has come out . She is a fascist right winger ……

  • R.M.

    She doesn’t understand what the word “justice” means…

  • R.M.

    I do want commend Dr. Abuelaish for speaking up for peace in view of his tragedy . I hope , he did not put himself and his family in danger for speaking up .

    I also hope that this poor little girl is also safe from hamas ….:


  • Lilya Lopekha


    You have no idea what Hamas is and what it stands for.

    You called me Right wing?
    You called me Racist?
    You called me anti-semite?
    Any other labels?

    Would you two please shut up and stop spreading your poison by labeling anybody who does not agree with the illegal Occupation.

    Please shut up

  • david

    It’s sad that this person lost three of his children to the terrorists. It’s time for the Arab world to set down their guns and bombs and try to get along with the rest of the civilized world.

  • R.M.

    Strange nothing on WBUR, NPR, and BBC on Durban 2 conference protest talk by Palestinian doctor . You would think that would be big news .


  • R.M.

    Do we have to get The Colbert Report to get a real intrepid journalist ?


  • Lilya Lopekha

    Ahmedinijad is absolutely right during his talk in Genova (Durban II):
    “Countries whose existence is based on lies and oppression and racism are bound to be wiped off the map by history via self-destruction from within”.

    On an unrelated comment, Bibi repeated and sharpened his threats against Iran saying that … just like they bombed Iraq and Syria illegally, bombing Iran is just a matter of time – unless American’s are stupid enough to do it for them, and if Chinese agrees to lend the money for the mission.

  • R.M.

    strange the video cannot be found ? well anyway this is a better version ….

  • Ellen Dibble

    I think the American press does a bit better than the BBC, if RM’s rendition is correct, because both sides do come across, though it is not clear to me that both sides are fairly presented by Al Jazeera (sp?) or the Israeli press. It certainly helps to know individuals in the crosshairs. I knew an Israeli Palestinian (Palestinian living in unoccupied Israel), studying here, who could talk about it only so far without getting emotional. Actually, she might be a Jew who converted to Islam. I guess she confused and upset me.
    I want to say that where I live in Massachusetts, people are in the courts all the time for mistreating one another, sometimes because of drug addiction, but sometimes out of sort of boredom, out of the vulnerability of somebody else. They can torture in horrifying ways for long stretches of time — years — out of some abhorrent dimension of humanity. Race and religion do not have to be a dimension at all.

  • jeffe

    Lilya thanks for being civil. Here are a few of your adolescent rants:

    “the living in the Outhouse is the best offer I can give you as Land for Peace; if you really want to get out of the Compost Bin that you are in now.”

    and this:
    “You guys are total waste of time. Nothing but cancer living inside American society. Nothing else to do except promote racist Israeli crap at the expense of our constitution. You have no loyalty to America.”

    I don’t know what to say your a real piece of work. Also I think you should get some therapy for your anger management “issues”. People like you give the left a bad name your as bad as the Rush Limbaugh, Beck, or O’Reilly.
    Your like the extremist on that silly tea bag day.

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll Frederic C.

    Please don’t feed the trolls.


  • jeffe

    Your right Fredrick, I already posted on today’s forum about this. I think we should all try to be civil.

  • Lilya Lopekha

    Not that easy R.M. + Jeffe

    All I wanted you to answer was a multiple choice question:

    I want your house badly for historic and religious reasons. We have three choices.
    1) I grab my baseball bat and kick you out of your house.
    2) Lawfully, I make an offer (big $$$) that you cannot refuse, so that you will let me have your house with peace.
    3) I take over your house, and your family lives in the stinky Outhouse (get it? Two-state solution)

    If you don’t want to answer, it is fine.

    Offered you this question 4-5 times; everytime you called me names: right-wing, racist, anti-s…, j… hater. 7-8 times. I did not make them up.

    I am totally opposite of those adjectives, 120%. Have no beef in the argument other than being Moral, Just and Human. But you guys do have a stake in it. There is no gray area in this Palestinian issue.

    You just cannot handle the truth that your religious/ ethinic/ political ties/beliefs is based on lies.

    No peace activist has been who decided to speak out about this injustuce, later on changed his/her mind and said “Hmmm, maybe I was a fool and did not see there are two sides to the story”. Stop being on the wrong side of the argument.

  • Brianna

    Read what this woman Lilya has been posting her.

    She is a bit wrong by saying that there can’t be two sides to a story. You have to be non judgmental observant to the facts.

    Here is the proof:


  • R.M.
  • R.M.
  • R.M.

    Truth or Propaganda?

    Gamaliel Isaac

    Stories of Israeli atrocities spread by the media, and Palestinian solidarity organizations have created considerable hostility to Israel. How can we determine if these atrocities stories are truth or propaganda?

    Method of Discerning the Truth

    The steps I use in this article to evaluate the truth of Middle Eastern allegations are:

    1) Examine what both sides have to say and if possible what neutral observers have observed

    2) Isolate statements that are verifiable and verify them.

    3) Look for contradictions and inconsistencies.

    I. The Allegation of Unfair Academic Closures

    One of the allegations leveled against Israel is that Israelis imprison Palestinian students for non-violent dissent. To evaluate this allegation we will consider the report of two neutral organizations, the World University Service (WUS) and the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) who sent a mission of enquiry to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to investigate academic freedom there.[i]

    According to their report:

    “The six principal institutions of higher education in the West Bank and Gaza have all been founded, or else upgraded to university status, since the beginning of the Israeli occupation in 1967: indeed, almost all of the expansion of higher education has taken place since about 1972. It is still continuing. The Israeli authorities appear to have given permission, either at the beginning or retrospectively, for all the institutions to open, and have co-operated with them in several ways.

    The rate of expansion of higher education has indeed been remarkable. In 1967, apart from a few small colleges some of which formed a nucleus for later growth, there was little in the way of higher education inside the West Bank and Gaza. By 1977-78 2,763 students were enrolled at the four main institutions: Birzeit, An Najah, Bethlehem and Hebron. By 1983-84 there were 11,046 at the six we visited, and some 14,000 altogether if the smaller colleges are included…”

    The authors wrote:

    “At Birzeit, by chance, we witnessed two events symptomatic of problems in the occupied territories… [O]ur car overtook a stationary bus carrying Birzeit students: the bus had been stopped by Israeli soldiers and all the students had to get out to have their identity cards checked… later that same morning the students organized a demonstration in the street just outside the old buildings of the university: this was to commemorate or rather reassert Palestinian condemnation of, the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29, 1947 – the Partition Resolution that outlined a plan for the partition of Mandated Palestine west of the River Jordan between a Jewish state and an Arab state… The demonstration was peaceful and impressive, and there was no Israeli attempt to stop it. “

    Why demonstrate against the partition plan? That plan was meant to give Israel a state and the Palestinian Arabs a state that would coexist side by side.[ii] This demonstration could only be against the existence of Israel yet the Israelis did nothing to stop it. What the authors personally witnessed was Israel tolerating extreme dissent.

    The authors heard second hand about another student demonstration that took place on January 31, 1984 at Birzeit University which was followed by a military ordered closure of the old campus for three months. (Birzeit had both a new and old campus). A statement issued by the Public Relations Office of Birzeit on 4 February said:

    “On the afternoon of January 31, the army came to the University where a peaceful student gathering was being held inside the campus… ”

    Israel in an official announcement issued on 2 February explained their reasons for the closure. as follows:

    “The Military Government decided today to close the old campus of Birzeit University for a 3 months period, following violent disturbances and grave violations of public order which took place at the campus on January 31st 1984. In the course of these events, some 400 students gathered at the campus, paralyzed the studies, raised PLO flags, rushed into the nearby streets and laid road blocks, set tires on fire and stoned the security forces which came to enforce order at the scene…

    The IDF and the Civil Administration will not permit students who are motivated by the PLO and activated by hostile elements to exploit the institutes of higher education in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza district for the purposes of incitement and hostile activities.

    Conclusion: The Israeli argument that they closed Birzeit in response to violence is more consistent with the author’s observations than the allegation that Israel imprisons students for non-violent dissent.

    The Bombing Innocent Palestinians Atrocity Allegation

    In October of 2000 a news bulletin interrupted the Arabic music on the Voice of Palestine radio: Israeli jets had just bombed the West Bank town of Bethlehem, the report said.

    “The Israeli criminals have fired missiles into the homes of innocent Palestinians,” a breathless correspondent said. “Palestinian blood is flowing in the streets! Oh God, God, how can the criminals kill our innocent children?”

    An hour earlier, another breathless Voice of Palestine correspondent had reported that the West Bank town of Hebron was “under siege” by armed Jewish settlers who were “shooting Palestinian women and children.”

    According to the correspondent Israeli troops were also burning homes in the West Bank town of Nablus.


    An investigative reporter for USA Today, Jack Kelley, decided to investigate these allegations.[iii] Immediately after hearing the broadcast about the Israeli attack on Bethlehem he hurried over and found no evidence of an attack. He went to Hebron to report on the siege by the Jewish settlers and found calm and quiet. He went to Nablus to see the burning buildings and nothing was burning.

    Why report false information? Tape editor Mahi Adwan explained.

    “With my task here, I feel I complete the work of those who throw the stones.”

    Soon after she spoke, another bulletin was broadcast by the station. “Palestinian people: Our war is about to begin,” yet another breathless commentator said.

    “Our brother and liberator in Iraq, President Saddam Hussein, has just phoned us to say that hundreds of jets and helicopters are taking-off from the aircraft carrier belonging to the criminal occupation force. They are heading this way to destroy our –”

    Suddenly, the report came to an end. Perhaps the commentator realized that Israel’s navy doesn’t have — and never has had — an aircraft carrier as part of its fleet.”

    The Jenin Massacre Allegation

    One of the recent accusations leveled against Israel is that Israeli soldiers [iv] massacred Palestinians civilians at Jenin. Palestinian Authority Minister, Saeb Erekat stated on CNN April 10: “Im afraid to say that the number of Palestinian dead in the Israeli attacks have reached more than 500 now.”[v] The director of the hospital in Jenin, Abo Gali, said that Israeli tanks fired 11 missiles at the facility, destroying oxygen bottles, water tubes, sewage pipes, hospital wards, doctors rooms and an infirmary. “The whole of the west wing was destroyed,” he testified. “Fighter planes launched their missiles every three minutes.” Abo Gali claimed that the Israeli army prevented all ambulances from reaching the hospital, insisting: “They didn’t want people to get medical treatment” and ” we had no food left.” Australian Christian humanitarian volunteer Dalry Jones said that Palestinians displayed photos of bodies, “gouged and pitted, torn. We were told this is from torture from the Israelis.”


    Pierre Rehov a French film maker went to Jenin to investigate the above allegations and created a documentary[vi] about what he found. In that documentary Rehov provides aerial images of the hospital on the last day of the incursion surrounding trees, the roof and floors are all intact. He also shows footage of ambulances unloading casualties by the hospital doors and IDF soldiers assisting children and the elderly to reach treatment. Dr. David Zangen, the army’s chief medical officer in Jenin during the incursion, describes how the soldiers even treated Palestinian fighters, including members of Hamas. Rehov even shows a scene of an Israeli authorizing Abo Gali in person to receive anything he’d like for the hospital.

    According to the Washington Times[vii], international workers investigated the camp and found no evidence of a massacre after which Palestinian officials drastically lowered the death toll to 56, a number consistent with what Israel had estimated.

    Pierre Rehov discovered that Palestinians staged scenes for reporter’s cameras. On Jan. 25, 2003, Rehov accompanied Palestinian journalist Ali Smoddi of the PA-controlled Jenin television station as he and his crew set out to interview a Palestinian man and his wife whose baby was just delivered by a doctor. At the hospital, Smoddis crew does several “takes” of the fathers account of the birth, each with a different spin. In one version, the father claims that the ambulance they intended to meet was held up at a checkpoint for 15 minutes, and he was forced to deliver his infant son in the car, as the ambulance had not arrived. In another telling, the father says: “The soldiers took me down to the ambulance to check my identification and my wife gave birth in the ambulance and went to the hospital.”

    Dalry Jones, who had initially been believed the Palestinians regarding allegations of Israeli torture saw a Palestinian child blow up in front of her face, and came to the realization that the ripped apart bodies were the result of human booby traps that the Palestinians used against the Israelis.”

    Pierre Rehov’s accounts of fabricated Palestinian street theater are supported by other sources. An Israel Defense Force drone filmed a funeral procession on April 28, during which the stretcher-bearers dropped the purported corpse. The “dead” man hopped back onto the stretcher, but the next time he was dropped, he walked away in a huff[viii] .

    Sami El Soudi, a Palestinian journalist also confirmed the street theater allegations in an article to the Metula News Agency[ix] He wrote:

    “Almost all Palestinian directors take part more or less voluntarily in these war commissions, under the official pretext that we should use all possible means, including trickery and fabulation, to fight against the tanks and airplanes the enemy has and we don’t.”

    The staging of atrocities can be very amusing to Palestinian onlookers. Israeli commentator Amnon Lord, a journalist for the Israeli paper, Makor Rishon wrote how he saw

    “incongruous battle scenes complete with wounded combatants and screeching ambulances played out in front of an audience of laughing onlookers”


    A major problem with the Jenin massacre allegation is it doesn’t explain why Israelis sent men into Jenin to fight instead of shelling it from a safe distance. This tactic mystified Thaber Mardawi, an Islamic Jihad fighter in Israeli custody, who said: “I don’t know why they [the Israel Defense Forces] sent the infantry [into Jenin]. They knew they would be killed. To see a soldier pass in front of me, I’ve waited for this many years.”[x]

    Support For Israeli Atrocity Allegations

    One would expect that at least some of the Israeli victims of terrorist attacks would become radicalized. Yitshak Pass became radicalized after he lost his daughter, a 10-month-old baby, Shalhevet. She was killed on a sunny Saturday morning by a Palestinian sniper. He was walking in the street with his wife, pushing a trolley, and a sniper shot the little baby in the head. Dr. Baruch Goldstein became radicalized after he couldn’t keep alive victims of Arab terrorist attacks and after he heard mosque worshippers yelling Etbach El Yahud (kill the Jew) The next day he opened fire on the worshippers in that mosque.

    Dan Setton wrote a documentary called Israel’s Next War and explained the radicalized settler’s beliefs in an interview[xi].

    “When a suicide bomber strikes, they don’t think that the army should target the people who sent the suicide bomber. Because that’s Israel’s policy: to go after the cell, go after the leaders that sent the terrorist, bring them to justice or kill them. They say, “No. The assassin comes from the village next door. You go after the village. They kill our children, we kill theirs. They blow up our buses, we blow up a school.” This is their strategic thinking. In the long run, they believe that this is the way that they’re going to bring the conflict to a halt.


    The settlers are critical of Israel’s policy because it limits itself to going after the assassins. This in itself is evidence against the allegation that the Israeli army indiscriminately kills women and children. The fact that the Israeli army endangered their own soldiers in Jenin in order to avoid killing civilians is a dramatic testament to the efforts of Israel to avoid hurting civilians.

    The Occupation of Palestinian Land Allegation:

    An allegation that is often made against Israelis is that they are occupying Muslim land.

    One counterargument against this is that the nation of Israel dates back to 1272 BC which is 1800-1900 years before the Muslim faith existed. Although in 70 CE the vast majority were exiled by the Romans those Jews who could, remained.


    The argument that there was a Jewish presence in Israel, even after the Romans exiled the Jews is supported by the fact that two famous Jewish works, the Mishna and the Jerusalem Talmud were both written around 200 CE. The Shulchan Aruch was written in Safed in the 1500s. An online documentary about Gaza [xii] shows Hebrew stone inscriptions demonstrating a historical presence of Jews there.


    Another counterargument to the claim that these areas are occupied Arab land is that the majority of Arabs living in the “occupied” areas are recent immigrants who immigrated there after the Jews created a thriving economy and made the desert bloom.


    The argument that most of the Arabs are recent immigrants is supported by the observations of two neutral observers of the region, Mark Twain and Ladislas Farago. Mark Twain, in a book called The Innocents Abroad[xiii] wrote about the emptiness and desolateness of Palestine:

    “Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies… Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua’s miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the leader’s presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye. .. The noted Sea of Galilee, where Roman fleets once rode at anchor and the disciples of the leader sailed in their ships, was long ago deserted by the devotees of war and commerce, and its borders are a silent wilderness; Capernaum is a shapeless ruin; Magdala is the home of beggared Arabs; Bethsaida and Chorazin have vanished from the earth, and the “desert places” round about them where thousands of men once listened to the leader’s voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes.”

    Ladislas Farago traveled through Palestine in the 1930s and wrote[xiv]:

    “One always finds in Palestine Arabs who have been in the country only a few weeks or a few months…Since they are themselves strangers in a strange land, they are the loudest to cry: ‘Out with the Jews!’…Amongst them are to be found representatives of every Arab country: Arabs from Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, the Sudan and Iraq.”


    Ephraim Karsh in an article titled What Occupation?[xv] wrote:

    In 1948, no Palestinian state was invaded or destroyed to make way for the establishment of Israel. From biblical times, when this territory was the state of the Jews, to its occupation by the British army at the end of World War I, Palestine had never existed as a distinct political entity but was rather part of one empire after another, from the Romans, to the Arabs, to the Ottomans…

    As is well known, the implementation of the UN’s partition plan was aborted by the effort of the Palestinians and of the surrounding Arab states to destroy the Jewish state at birth. What is less well known is that even if the Jews had lost the war, their territory would not have been handed over to the Palestinians. Rather, it would have been divided among the invading Arab forces, for the simple reason that none of the region’s Arab regimes viewed the Palestinians as a distinct nation. As the eminent Arab-American historian Philip Hitti described the common Arab view to an Anglo-American commission of inquiry in 1946, “There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not”…

    Verification: Many Arabs agree with Mr. Hitti[xvi], in fact Zuheir Mohsein, then a member of the Supreme Council of the PLO said[xvii]:

    “There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity.”

    Counterargument 2: Ephraim Karsh wrote that:

    [O]n January 20, 1996, elections to the Palestinian Council were held, and shortly afterward both the Israeli civil administration and military government were dissolved…

    Since the beginning of 1996, and certainly following the completion of the redeployment from Hebron in January 1997, 99 percent of the Palestinian population of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have not lived under Israeli occupation.”

    Allegation: The Israelis Are Oppressing the Palestinians:

    Counterargument: Efraim Karsh[xviii] wrote about this allegation as follows:

    “During the three decades of Israel’s control, far fewer Palestinians were killed at Jewish hands than by King Hussein of Jordan in the single month of September 1970 when, fighting off an attempt by Yasir Arafat’s PLO to destroy his monarchy, he dispatched (according to the Palestinian scholar Yezid Sayigh) between 3,000 and 5,000 Palestinians, among them anywhere from 1,500 to 3,500 civilians. Similarly, the number of innocent Palestinians killed by their Kuwaiti hosts in the winter of 1991, in revenge for the PLO’s support for Saddam Hussein’s brutal occupation of Kuwait, far exceeds the number of Palestinian rioters and terrorists who lost their lives in the first intifada against Israel during the late 1980′s…”

    The larger part, still untold in all its detail, is of the astounding social and economic progress made by the Palestinian Arabs under Israeli “oppression.” At the inception of the occupation, conditions in the territories were quite dire. Life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were rife; and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 war, fewer than 60 percent of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors…

    During the 1970′s, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world-ahead of such “wonders” as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself…

    Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

    Verification: There are many references[xix] that confirm Ephraim Karsh’s astonishing statements about the thriving economy of the Palestinians under the Israeli administration, before the Intifada.

    Counterargument 2: Menahem Milson wrote an article titled “How not to Occupy the West Bank” about Israeli efforts to make the life of the Palestinians as easy as possible. He wrote:[xx]

    “There was no official Israeli document like the U.S. Initial Post-surrender Policy for Japan of September 1945 defining policy in the territories…The nearest thing to such a statement is an article by Shlomo Gazit (who headed the Israeli Military Government (IMG) under Dayan from 1967 to 1974) entitled “The Occupied Territories: Policy and Practice,” published in January 1970 in Ma’arachot, the monthly of the Israeli army…

    Gazit wrote:

    “Israel did not engage in the Six-Day War because of its expansionist intentions nor from a desire to rule the Arabs. We entered the military campaign because we were faced with a serious problem of defense which we had to solve. The territories which we occupied were occupied as essential defense positions for Israel, not because of [a desire to rule over] the population residing in them…”

    For those [residents of the territories] who yearn for independence, for sovereignty, for a flag, a national anthem, and all the other paraphernalia of statehood – for those, we cannot offer any practical solution. However, as for the other aspect, that is, to what extent the Israeli Military Government changes or affects the ordinary regular way of life of the Arab residents of the territories – here we can do a lot in order to dull the acuteness of the problem…

    In order to help “dull the acuteness of the problem,” the IMG intends to abide by three principles. The first is “non-presence”: the removal of any sign of Israeli rule – the Israeli flag, a military patrol, visible military headquarters. The second is the principle of nonintervention: that the population should administer itself as it wishes. The third, finally, is the principle of open bridges,” which makes it possible for the Arab residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (as well as visitors from all over the Arab world) to move freely into and out of the area…

    It is the undisputed right of every Arab to continue to be a nationalist Arab with national awareness, to retain his traditions, religion, and language, to be proud of his past and of his national history…”

    Milson explains:

    “The meaning of such an approach becomes clearer when we contrast the Israeli policy in the territories with that of the United States in occupied Japan. The United States openly aimed at changing the political culture of Japan. To this end it instituted a general censorship of all Japanese media, a comprehensive revision of educational curricula and school texts, and a ”purge” of public figures…

    As for education: although Jordanian school texts were replete with anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish materials, nonetheless, according to Dayan’s biographer Shabtain Teveth, the IMG decided “not to censor…”

    “As the Israeli military presence was reduced in accordance with this principle [non-intervention], armed PLO forces became active. “By the end of 1970,” writes one observer, “the fida’iyin controlled the camps and, at night, the towns. Grenades were lobbed into marketplaces to disrupt commerce, and at places where people congregated who worked inside Israel, such as post offices, banks, and buses… Most of the victims were Arabs…”


    Gazit’s argument that Israel needs to be in the territories for its own security is supported by a Memorandum for the Secretary of Defense by the Joint Chiefs Of Staff of he United States which can be viewed online[xxi]. According to the memorandum Israel needs:

    “Control of the prominent high ground running north-south through the middle of West Jordan generally east of the main north-south highway along the axis Jennin-Nablus-Bira-Jerusalem and then southeast to a junction with the Dead Sea at the Wadi el Daraja”

    You don’t need to be a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to realize the importance of Judea and Samaria for Israel’s security. One quick look at a topographic map makes it obvious. I’ve included such a map below which I obtained from a political advertisement[xxii] from the Hatikvah Educational Foundation[xxiii]. The mountainous regions are Judea and Samaria otherwise known as the West Bank.

  • Mike

    nope its Propaganda,misleading,twisting of information to benefit the writer. if so there would not be any u.n. resolutions against israel, nor would israel not allow foreign reporter in gaza, to report, encage and assainate elected officials, shot gas canisters close range, and silience critcs for speaking out against it actions. or engage in torture itself,and detention with-out trail, countless reports of abuse within israel and outside of irasel, along with expanding settlements as well.plus youtube u can see people and pictures, videos of what israel has done.

    nice try though, Norman F. beats most his points using something called facts. yes facts beat propaganda amazing.

  • jeffe

    Lylia it’s your opinion that I”m on the wrong side.
    You have nothing to offer and are just showing me that your driven by anger and do have any real grasp on the realities of the area. I refuse to answer your question because it’s just dumb. I was trying to be polite by ignoring you, but since you seem to think that you can keep insulting people and using this forum as your own personal blog, I have better things to do then to defend my views. You have already made up your mind, what’s the point? I know you get off on this, it’s your ego at work here.

  • Mike

    also the 2 aipac israelies that are accuse of spying and offering favors for lobbying for them.


  • Ellen Dibble

    There was a segment last night on CBS’s Late Late Show with Craig Ferguson that could be a satire of a “dialogue” such as this. Maybe someone can find it excerpted on the CBS web site. I was not taking notes – :>) Craig Ferguson heralded the coming of an otherworldly force, who appeared at the back of the theater. Both had a sort of fluorescent want, vintage Star Wars, and they challenged each other, signaling with the wand, no audio, no words, except those printed out across the screen in translation. Each tried to outdo the other, swinging the magical flashlight (about a yard long and somewhat banana or balloon like). At the end, the flashlight of Ferguson grew saggy and flopped over; while that of the ET contender remained tall. Here on the web, is someone supposed to sort of fold?
    To me, the hope is that this dispute might be addressed by at least one set of people (this forum) who could glean meaningful information (partly by fitting the personalities of those contending here to the various perspectives). Also there is hope to see a way the actual parties to the conflict might find common cause, or resolution. One can certainly see where the hard lines come from, even without actual hostilities such as exist on the ground.

  • Lilya

    As a condition of WBUR lifting the block of my user id, from now on I cannot say anything critical of Israel (by name). Looks like some of the Donors got upset.

    But I can talk about Harman and AIPAC.

    Prime example of how this issue is corrupting our country, if not solved.

    I knew about this pay for play + bribery + crime and corruption months ago. Jane Harman is “lying”; but she is untouchable.

  • Lilya

    Good Job R.M.
    Your propaganda posting is 16788 words.

    We are doing the same thing again and again. Complicate the matter as much as you can, so that the Attention Span of an average American will expire before the first paragraph ends.

    That’s why I wanted to simplify and personalize the conflict with the Outhouse and Compost Bin and a Suburban Dwelling. I know, the issue is more complicated than it is… but I refuse to play your game, being drowned in the detailed propaganda and be stuck with “Status Quo Forever” while America is about to go Bankcrupt soon. On behalf of pain and suffering by caged generations over there, it is very difficult to be quiet.

    Instead of vacationing in Cancun, try visiting a Refugee Camp (61 yrs old) in Gaza or even in Sabra (Beirut).

    At the end, you guys got me into trouble with WBUR Webmasters.

  • R.M.

    strange nothing on Durban II on wbur, bbc, npr. Can it be that the UN is not important ?. Don’t let us call the intrepid reporter on the colbert report


  • R.M.

    Elie wiesel verbally abused in Durban II


  • R.M.

    Elie wiesel is such a dignified man :


  • jeffe

    Lilya you got yourself into trouble with your constant diatribes and people just got sick of it. Your doing it again, you just don’t don’t get it. It is very telling that you blame others for your problems with the webmaster. You crossed the the line of civility too many times. Instead of looking inward and figuring out how to get your ideas and points across you blame everyone else for your being banned from posting for a day.

    Think about it.

    As for the rich Jews your talking about from Europe here’s a link I think you should check out.
    Click on the video of the Mass Murder of Jews in Liepaja, Latvia, 1941.


    While this is not about the Middle East it does frame the attitude of formed by the founders of Israel, they survived.

  • Lilya

    Rich immigrant from Eastern Europe (today):
    - the ones who are at the top tiers of financial companies and hedge fund managers
    - the ones who are at the top of Media and Entertainment Companies
    - the ones who have been in US Government controlling 80% of US Financial Policy
    - the ones who are in the weapons trade out of Brooklyn
    - Larry Silverstein and Frank Lowy gang who makes money out of buildings in New York and does charity donations in that little country in the Middle East.

    Therefore, anybody who really talks about Peace in Palestine and supports the creation of a country on somebody else’s land, just because a letter that came out of a typewriter said so, ….. should buy the land.

    Daaaa, how difficult is this to understand.

  • Lilya

    David Kellermann died. He was the acting CFO of Freddie which handled trillions of dollars.

    He was reporting to CEO David Moffett, who resigned about a month ago from Freddie which was littered with financial corruption (= theft in big amount$$$).

    Neither one of these gentlemen were from immigrant families from Japan, Ireland, Brazil, Mexico or Senegal.

    And David Moffett was also serving as Director in Carlyle.

    There is a reason, why I am posting this info here.

  • Lilya

    Why did we invade Iraq? What was the Original Motive?

    Wake up the kids, phone the neighbors… here it comes…. and it was not about Oil and rockets that would reach London in 45 minutes!!!

    You make up your own punchline, OK?

    Year 1992

    “Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right — as a means of foiling Syria’s regional ambitions. Jordan has challenged Syria’s regional ambitions recently by suggesting the restoration of the Hashemites in Iraq. This has triggered a Jordanian-Syrian rivalry to which Asad has responded by stepping up efforts to destabilize the Hashemite Kingdom, including using infiltrations. Syria recently signaled that it and Iran might prefer a weak, but barely surviving Saddam, if only to undermine and humiliate Jordan in its efforts to remove Saddam.”

    Participants in the Study Group on “A New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000:”

    Richard Perle, American Enterprise Institute, Study Group Leader
    James Colbert, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
    Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Johns Hopkins University/SAIS
    Douglas Feith, Feith and Zell Associates
    Robert Loewenberg, President, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
    Jonathan Torop, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
    David Wurmser, Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies
    Meyrav Wurmser, Johns Hopkins University

  • jeffe

    Lilya, no comment. I find this offensive.
    How dare you use language like this and then say that your a person who wants peace in the region. How dare you.

    Do you have no shame?

  • R.M.

    Lyla ,I don’t know why ,but I feel sorry for you . You seem like a very angry person . slowly but surely , you are disclosing who you really are !Take a deep breath and get rid of that hate. You will feel better .

  • Lilya

    There is more…..Why in the World we invaded Iraq?


    The textbook, step-by-step analysis of How To Remove Saddam. Authored in 1996. Search the text with “Saddam”. You will see countless references to “post-Saddam”, “after Saddam is toppled”. Calculated plans regarding usuing Chalabi, ptting Arab against Arab, Saddam’s inner-marriages.

    When these orthodox scumbags were planning on overthrowing Saddam, clueless Bush was in Texas and had absolutly no idea were Iraq was on the map. They used Bush’s stupidity to make America do the dirty work and pay the price in trillion$. They wanted to comprimise Clinton (remember sweet Monica?) and force him to execute this plan.

    Coping with Crumbling States:
    A Western and Israeli Balance of Power Strategy for the Levant

    For related reading:
    “Ultimate ‘peace process’ prize,” by Robert J. Loewenberg, The Washington Times, October 13, 1996
    “Just as Saddam’s Power is Under Assault,” by David Wurmser, The Wall Street Journal – Europe, September 11, 1996
    “Balance of Power,” by Richard Perle, The Wall Street Journal – Europe, July 10, 1996

  • Ellen Dibble

    Incidentally, it is helpful when a link, especially to a video, is given some explanation.
    I just studied RM’s post of 4/19 at 6:55, the submission to the U.N. by the World Union for Progressive Judaism. Looking at point 4, it seems the 800,000 to a million Jews were expelled from the Middle East and North Africa subsequent to the post-World War II, “at the hands of Moslems being incited to holy war over the Partition of Palestine.” I would like to have some historical novels about how that transpired, if anyone could cite some. Those uprooted communities, some 3,000 years old, surely have documentation.
    But it seems that the post-World War II treaties and plans did not include extensive collaboration with the Arabic governments, so they took free reign.
    In number 11, I don’t follow, “Jewish refugees from Arab lands were not helped by the UN, nor were they kept for over a half a century in refugee camps breeding hopelessness and frustration, and a culture of hate and death.” RM, “Nor were they”? What does that mean? Is this a complaint or a point of success?
    I have yet to read the long 4/21 post of RM.
    Name calling, “grow up,” etc., one hopes folks can retire to a aupportive “other” who says hang in there.
    To Lilya’s tripartite question. All the money in the world could not buy a country. Not all rich American Jews are so invested in the standoff in Israel. We heard some on the program, some in this forum. It might occur to someone that non-Jews are needed. Where exactly would the Palestinians go? How many of them are there? Populations that have been isolated and hamstrung, violated in various ways, have a hard time coming together to negotiate forcefully. (The Iraqi population is one example.) In Palestine we see that when the people seem to have no choice but to accept the help of Hamas, though it is not exactly an indigenous organization. The leaders who erupt among a small population — what do you expect? Consider what we elected not so long ago. Couldn’t a population of what, 250 million in the USA, have done better?
    So Palestine is constrained from evolving the way it needs to. Real daily needs probably keep a lot of people less well off than a physician more or less helpless. Able to scream but not organize, not unless the circumstances are JUST right. And if the Arab world is not behind their objective, they would be doomed, right?
    Imagine peace. Watch for the dove flying back to the ark. Not yet.
    By the way, where I live, “Jewish communities” are very well integrated into the whole. They invite us to their celebrations. I believe this year Purim, celebrating Esther, they had a cross-dressing party inviting everybody. The paper ran stories. One Jewish lawyer is always in the front lines for human rights, the rights of beggars on Main Street to beg, for instance. And he is all over the place if he thinks the Constitution is being violated. I believe all the Jews here are like that. If their sense of justice is not always applied to all, it doesn’t count. They sort of grandfather us Christians and others into their orbit. Perhaps because of less antisemitism here, the Jewish population seems to always reach out, rather than turning in, and their gifts enrich us all. In the Old World, it seems Jews were not given the freedom and respect that enables that, such that they could be expelled without great regretful novels telling of the disembowelment of Tunisian democracy and culture or whatever.
    Am I right?

  • R.M.

    exposing the UNITED NATION :


  • R.M.
  • Lilya

    Ellen Dibble

    Wow…a supersmart person; fighting the unwinable battle for justice. You are on the right side of the issues.

    Buying the land for a Country?
    I know there may not be enough money, etc…. but about $300-400 billion will do the job. Not American Money, though!!! We have nothing to do with what happened around mass murderer evil *&%@($&# Hitler’s time in Europe.

    Cost of 9/11 = $2 trillions
    Iraq invasion = $2 trillions
    Afghanistan adventure = $1 trillion
    Military war against a hypothesis = $2 trillions
    Total (2001-2009) = $7,000 billion
    Why do you think we are economically in such deep poop?
    We lost touch with what is good for America and the World.

    The idea is to Make A Point. As soon as we simplify the problem, the next question is How Much? The point is: let’s work on making Americans to understand the core problem. It is more about Justice, rather than 82% unemployment and powerty in Gaza or religious claims.

    At least, I am trying to eliminate “they have been fighting for centuries”, “too complicated for me”, “religious struggle”… garbage.

    Destruction of Culture, Connection to Land:
    All the vocal Palestinians I have talked to in USA, they categorically reject such a proposal, in the comfort of 9.5% unemployment here. But we should let the silent people in Gaza make the choice, while they are standing in pool of raw sewage and has no prospect of having a decent job until the day he/she dies.

    Of course, I am aware of the fact that it will never get to the point of anybody writing a check, but let’s distinguish the Victim who lost his house from who the Agressor is.

    There aren’t two sides – there is a loaded steel tank and a kid who can only throw a rock not more than 96 feet.

  • Ellen Dibble

    The Palestinians you have spoken with reject “such a proposal” — something to do with “connection to the land and destruction of culture” — whose land, whose culture? From R.M.’s post, a huge proportion if not almost all of the Jewish people in Israel had lost their own land. And further, they had lost that land after World War II exactly because of the establishment of Israel.
    It seems enormously counterproductive, if Arab lands did not like what Israel was established to be, to uproot their Jewish populations an essentially drive them into Israel. How counterproductive is that? Did they not shoot themselves in the foot there? And they sort lost the moral high ground right there, without me being old enough to notice, if they were saying no Jews in Palestine, no Jews here either.
    I believe at that point in history the Holocaust was a very loud reality. Maybe the news about North African/Sephardic Jewry did not reach the UN, or did not reach the top of the agenda. If the Arabs were not on board about Israel at the start, things were set to go from bad to worse. The Arabs need to be part of the solution. It was nice to see King Abdullah of Jordan talking with Obama the last day or so.
    I think the two “sides” are those who hate each other in Israel, the depth and breadth of the division being more equalized than seems because within the Middle East, the Jewish population is not a majority.
    I think if we want peace in Israel we should advocate in all possible ways for the Palestinians having a clear shot at success as a people. Hamas is not all that successful though it seems they have the same objective. If Palestine were as desirable a homeland as Israel, then people who could not be civil to each other would not have to. They could work for their own communities rather than working against forces that threaten them.
    I did hear about Durban II, with video and so on, on four or five American non-cable channels, as well as an article in the local paper. I see where the rhetoric was expected to be unhelpful, and where it was indeed not helpful, at least not Akmadinajad’s (sp?) opening, nor really the protestors even before he began. If you start out with name calling, what do you expect? Rallying of the unhelpful? Start by positing solutions, I’d say.

  • Mike

    hi Ellen Dibble,

    check out the history channel, bibical battles, it goes from moses to david,,3k years ago, it will give u a incite u one of your questions.

  • Mike

    insight to one of your questions

  • Ellen Dibble

    Mike, I’m sure you are right. I don’t get cable TV, and I’m sure you are right about the History channel because PBS has been broadcasting wonderful programs updating Biblical history, also Christian and Islamic history. All of it sheds light. Church seems to be teaching a lot, but there is sure a lot more.

  • jeffe

    Ellen your making a lot of sense to me and your quick grasp of the complexity of the issues is very good.

    You hit on a very good point. The other Arab countries, which after WW2 were not what we see today. One has to remember that all of Jordan and the area of Israel and Palestine were under British and French colonial rule.

    You should rent the film The Battle of Algiers, is a 1966 black-and-white film by Gillo Pontecorvo based on events during the 1954-1962 Algerian War against French rule.

    This is a good incite into the rise of pan Arabic nationalism that was sweeping the the area after WW2.

    Also look up Gamal Abdel Nasser who advocated the advancement of Arab nationalism. It is under this background that Israel was founded.

    The other thing I think people should be aware of is who when you start talking about rich Jews who run the media and banks that this is old anti-Semitic language dating back to the turn of the century. It’s very offensive and Lilya knows this. So all this talk of money and buying out people is not a good thing. Also in the historical context to European Jews the Nazis used this in a cynical way in Hungry. They offered Hungarian Jews the option of buying there way out of the gas chambers, only to send them to their deaths anyway.

    The other thing is that during the 30′s and 40′s the United States had a strict quota on Jewish immigrants. Even after the death camps were known to exist Roosevelt refused to lift this quota due to the factions in his own cabinet who were Jewish and some of whom were anti-Semitic. The problem was Charles Lindbergh a very popular personality and an extreme anti-Semite.

    I think one needs to read up on a lot this history to understand how a convergence of events. In particular the aftermath of WW2 the huge amount of Jewish refugees coupled with the rise of Arab nationalism. One also has to remember that after WW2 in some countries, such a Poland when Jewish refugees returned home they were met with violence. I think 100,000 Polish Jews were murdered after the war by the Poles, just imagine surviving the death camps only to beaten to death after returning to your town or village.

    This story The Tragedy of the S.S. St. Louis is also a good incite into the way Jewish immigrants were dealt with during this time.


  • jeffe

    Sorry i have a typo, I meant insight not incite…
    Although it’s a good trip of the tongue in some ways.

  • Ellen Dibble

    Jeffe, I’m making a note of all your suggestions. I am a lot happier to unwrap some of this history when I know there are other people willing to grapple with it realistically.
    Monday I had some empty time (waiting room) and hauled along “Mr. Mani,” translated from the Hebrew by Hillel Holkin, winner of first Israeli literature prize, and a Nobel winner. It casts through Jewish history a couple hundred years, starting with people in a kibbutz in 1982, their histories, their reality. What a hunger I have for this.

  • R.M.

    You have to ask yourself why have the voices about the 1 million Jewish refugees from Arab countries have been silent and how ? And then ask yourself about all the lies told about Israeli war crimes starting with the myth of Al Durah ..(one the excuses for the beheading of Daniel Pearl )
    Film by Pierre Rehov , The silent exodus of jewish refugees:


  • R.M.

    UNRWA: lords of misery by Pierre Rehov.


  • Lilya

    The argument/solution is not that complicated.

    There is only One house (not two)
    Owner #1: Original/Legal owner (poor/defenseless/homeless) [dark skin/Arabic Speaking]
    Owner #2: Occupant (militarily strong/affluent/with $$$/connected) [transplant from Europe/white/non-Arabic speaking]

    If this issue has come to any US court; the Judge would solve this issue in two ways (not one, not three)
    1) Throws the Occupier into jail
    2) Force the parties into arbitration [out of court settlement] (Occupier paying loads of money to the Legal Owner)

    The amount of Out of court settlement in monetary terms is growing and growing with each decade.

    Another concern is that populations are growing and weapons are getting more effective with longer ranges.

    As you can see, United States of America is not a party of interest here.
    But the problem, the conflict will show its ugly head more and more in the halls of Washington, our Elections and Elected officials will get more corrupted; and we will see the swelling in the Pantagon budget and sqeeze in our future financial well being.

    That’s why US Government should has to find a solution (or imposing is even better). That’s why we just cannot let this injustice/conflict go on forever before monetary solution becomes out of reach.

    That is what all these postings were about.

  • mr.independant

    Lilya, for Pete’s sake give it a rest already.
    You keep yelling at everyone who does not agree with you and posting the same thing over and ever again.

  • mr.independant

    Lilya, for Pete’s sake give it a rest already.
    You keep yelling at everyone who does not agree with you and posting the same thing over and over again.

  • mr.independant

    Lilya, for Pete’s sake give it a rest already.
    You keep yelling at everyone who does not agree with you and posting the same thing over and over again.

    See how annoying that is.

  • Mike

    there is still a chance of peace and hamas and fatah reconciled. along with 3rd partys getting involved as well along with change of u.s. policy thinking.
    much better than the bush days.


    A senior economic advisor to Mr Obama, Paul Volcker, recently put his name to a paper which included a “more pragmatic approach to Hamas” among wider policy recommendations.

    Harry Siegman, the head of the think-tank behind the document, believes there are “early indications” that the new US government will adopt its advice to “cease discouraging” third parties from dealing with Hamas.

    Many Gazans live in tents as reconstruction is bogged down in politics
    Mr Siegman says reaction to the document was “very positive” at a recent meeting which he says was attended by several “senior members” of the Obama administration, including US Middle East envoy George Mitchell.

    Meanwhile, Martin Indyk, a former US ambassador to Israel who advised US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton during her presidential campaign, recently co-wrote a book chapter asserting that “a peace process that excludes” Hamas is “bound to fail”.

    If an Israel-Hamas ceasefire held and Fatah and Hamas reconciled, the US should deal with a Palestinian unity government and “authorise low-level contact with Hamas in Gaza”, it said.

    And in January, Tony Blair, the international community’s Middle East envoy, warned against “pushing Gaza aside”.

    “I do think it is important that we find a way of bringing Hamas into this process,” he told the Times newspaper, although he holds that Hamas should meet the three conditions first.


  • http://www.peacenow.org Noam Shelef

    I was privileged to spend three days with Dr. Abuelaish in Washington this week, escorting him to meetings with Jewish community leaders, foreign policy leaders, and leading politicians.

    He is a remarkable figure.

    For those looking to hear more, you can listen to a public discussion he held in Washington with Ori Nir at http://www.peacenow.org/updates.asp?rid=0&cid=6144

    There is also a remarkable news story about his U.S. tour at http://thenational.ae/article/20090423/FOREIGN/704229867/1135

  • Mike

    thank u noam, i listen to him on the website, i would love to see the doc on cbs, with katie C. or a half hour interview on some of the major news outlets. on-point was good, i hope he can spread his meassage even farther

  • Lilya

    Noam + Mike

    Of course, Dr. Abuelaish is a wonderful guy. What a wonderful human being and dad and a citizen of this world.

    But if he were to critize the Occupation with a semi-strong language, you know where he would have been right now instead of the spotlights in USA.

    The reason why his daughters were killed not becuase of the blue skyies and the color of roses….it is the Occupation, s’tupid!

    This is just another concerted effort of Feel Good campaign that pushes the Occupation of the discussion table; just like Interfaith Communication get togethers and Summer Camps for Kids from Both sides.

    These are my opinions, honest and not influenced with my former religion (J….) and what you think about my postings. And I don’t care if you call me names, OK?

  • mr.independant

    Lilya your a real piece of work, now you insult and demean Dr. Abuelaish. You also say your Jewish. That explains a lot.

    Your entitled to your opinions, know one said you were not. The problems arise when other people disagree with you. Then you go off and start in with the insults and the anger goes up a few notches. You must be a load of fun at parties…

  • mr.independant

    By the way I am too. I am always intrigued by Jews who hate their race. I’m not a religious person, but I am well aware that had I been in Berlin in 1940 I would have ended up in a camp no matter what told the SS about me not being a Jew anymore.

    You can’t escape what you are. Also there are some fundamentalist Muslims who would also behead you the minute they found out you were a Jew.

  • Lilya

    The topic was not SS, 1940, Berlin, Hitler or People Hating Themsels, not it is about religion and God or History or you or me.

    It is about the Occupation.

    Either Israel should give the Palestinian land back or the Government of israel should buy the land and compensate for the generational pain and suffering (big checks).

    If you have a better alternative, please write back…if you don’t…don’t call other people names.

    Do you see any trace of hate, anger, rudeness in this posting?

  • mr.independant

    It’s OK for you to be nasty and vindictive when it your agenda is being questioned.

    Now when your called on it you complain and say don’t call me names. For your information the issues is being a Jew and being a Palestinian and this relationship is a valid issue. The histories of these two people can’t be ignored. Your constant denial of this shows how little you seem to understand about this situation.

    Your ideas are absurd.
    You don’t offer anything but this idea of buying out the Palestinians, are you serious? Do you think they can be bought? Of course you don’t and this is why you keep harking on this. Your real agenda is the demise of Israel. You have stated this and have made enough statements to this effect. That your Jewish only points to a another problem of the self. Good luck with that.

  • mr.independant

    The topic was not SS, 1940, Berlin, Hitler or People Hating Themselves, not it is about religion and God or History or you or me.

    Oh it’s all about you Lilya isn’t it.

    How is that you can use abstracts to make your points, such as stealing someones identity and then saying it’s to make your point and when someone else makes a statement on a related idea you cry foul?

    What gives you the authority to make these assumptions and pass judgment on others? Because they disagree with you?

    Who are you to pass judgment on anyone.

Aug 22, 2014
Attorney General Eric Holder talks with Capt. Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol at Drake's Place Restaurant, Wednesday, Aug. 20, 2014, in Florrissant, Mo. (AP)

The National Guard and Eric Holder in Ferguson. ISIS beheads an American journalist. Texas Governor Rick Perry gets a mug shot. Our weekly news roundtable goes behind the headlines.

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An American is beheaded. We’ll look at the ferocity of ISIS, and what to do about it.

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